Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on July 19, 2012, 07:17:45 AM
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Just giving myself 10 minutes to spew about this, then off for a healing walk.
the Young Man at Work Who Hates My Guts--I'll call him Production Man (in a nutshell, he is doing a primal almost sibling kind of jealousy because of my daily contact with the boss, whom he worships, and without knowing me, without ever working closely with me, without in fact making EYE CONTACT with me, he decided when I arrived 6 years ago that I was a threat ("Daddy loves him best") and has never, ever, stopped devaluing, attacking, and --irrationally, and obviously to everyone else who works there including Boss-- wishing me harm. He tried to persuade boss to fire me. I kept doing excellent work and the company kept growing (we're now in our 3rd year on the Inc. 500/5000 list--made over 5mil last year)...etc.
Boss hates women but depends on me a great deal for key funcitons. On a daily basis, it works. Now and then it devolves. The mysogyny vibes rise and flame and flare. I just completed a massive assignment for which the boss wrote me privately: This is a GREAT job. So much strategy depends on this. Thank you, thank you. Publically (in meetings)? Boss says, "It's pretty good." Etc. So...the guru games go on.
The 2 new other young men I work with (one I trust, the other I like but don't trust since he has position-self-to-advantage-FIRST and steal-credit-when-possible instincts) -- anyway, they have seen it all and validate it all. So, that's healing.
But this week it roared up again. Production man (intensely close relationship with Boss which everyone speculates about--passionate hugs in front of staff when they haven't seen each other for 2 days...and Boss' general obsessive interest in and inappropriate remarks about all the young men's bodies, strength, muscularity, etc.--everyone assumes he's something on the spectrum that he has repressed, and it's key to his ongoing enabling of Production Man). He actually said to me (in private) the other day after Production Man had been particularly insanely and relentlessly toxic (about me): "I think he wants my job." It's like the young lion threatening the old lion, or something.
I get in the crosshairs of Production Man whenever I publicize my work when the other senior staff need to review it for accuracy. The others all respond positively and with a concise list of suggestions or corrections. Very helpful. The Young Man tries to tear it all to shreds and make me appear stupid, incompetent, or whatever. But he's not bright enough to do it effectively, so he just looks like (and is) a bully.
But it is still, though I have much more distance on it than I used to, VERY exhausting to be hated so relentlessly. After a long meeting, I felt so bruised I had to take a walk and cry (don't do that often). Then Boss pulls me in and wants to analyse, almost with delight, how Production Man behaved. "Did you see how he was squirming? I asked him those questions and he couldn't even make sense."
I feel as though Boss toys with us, almost ENJOYS the dynamic of the "two kids fighting." Then Boss wants to spill his psyche in my lap and have me fix it up by soothing him, because I'm "the most forgiving person he's ever known."
Grrrr. I get tired of forgiving. And sick to death of having boots on my head because of the toxic crap. I wish the two of them would just get a room, and play it all out. Maybe then some of the tension (which affects everyone, not just me) would be relieved.
Okay, off for walkies. Thanks for listening.
xo
Hops
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I feel as though Boss toys with us, almost ENJOYS the dynamic of the "two kids fighting." Then Boss wants to spill his psyche in my lap and have me fix it up by soothing him, because I'm "the most forgiving person he's ever known."
Grrrr. I get tired of forgiving. And sick to death of having boots on my head because of the toxic crap. I wish the two of them would just get a room, and play it all out. Maybe then some of the tension (which affects everyone, not just me) would be relieved.
YUCK.
Don't which part of this creeps me out the most; but I certainly understand why you need to physically get away for a bit.
Hang in there.
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OMG---Where on earth do you work????
Do toxic fumes actually emanate from the building? If someone takes a picture, can you see little stink-lines coming off the bricks?
In 23 years as a stripper, I have never seen anything that bad.
I have to admit, I work with some skanky, psychotic, drug-addicted, crackhead, coked-up bitches. They will get in cat fights over a customer. They will steal from each other, for fun and profit. They will hide each others things for spite. They will back-stab, interfere with sales, and even outright lie about each other. They will tell you lies about yourself TO YOUR FACE.
But I have NEVER seen anything like that.
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Good Lord, Hops.
I thought the boss was bad: /
I don't know how you manage to stay so level at work....
I guess it comes and goes.
SO not fair, and what do you think the boss would do if you (hypothetically of course) gave him an ultimatum, either reign in the pitbull, or arrange a NO CONTACT situation between you and the pitbull..... that of thing?
Seems like he'd pick the pitbull if he's physically attracted to the guy, I guess, even to the detriment of the company.
That is an overtly frustrating position for you to be in YET AGAIN Hops. Like your FOO wasn't enough, here you are again, enduring, and stuffing feelings for your livlihood. It's so not fair, and I don't understand if these kinds of situations keep happening to us bc we have something that needs to be worked out, or bc the situations need to work something out that requires people like us.
Again, I'm so sorry you're in this situation, ((((Hops.))))
You certainly deserve better treatment, though I'm not how one would advocate for it in your situation.
Lighter
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Lighter said:
It's so not fair, and I don't understand if these kinds of situations keep happening to us bc we have something that needs to be worked out, or bc the situations need to work something out that requires people like us.
OR.... there's another option lurking in that, Lighter... I think. Maybe. Every once in a while, I find it... and it's good to try it on for size -- just coz it's something different. Anyway... there was such profundity in your comment the energy immediately got my brain-lightbulb working again.
I was in an Nboss situation like Hops. Now that I'm not -- I can look back and see that as long as I let myself notice all the ways Nboss was like my FOO, or even just clueless, unself-aware, and crudely N... it kept the old neuro-patterns firing along the same outrage, hopeless/helpless, futility tracks. I kept reliving my own coping strategies... living in that same "as defined by N" world. I had to confront that a lot UNTIL I started to see that there were more than 2 options... stay/leave; and I had to learn to believe in my own power and ability to implement whichever choice I ultimately wanted (oh yeah, took me a few years to decide what I really wanted). For me, that other option was finally accepting as fact... that Nboss was different than my mom; I was in a totally different position; I had way more tools for protecting myself; and in the end... Nboss wasn't in control of me, my decisions (on/off the job), and I'd be damned if I let him control how I felt... even if his behavior really DID qualify as the most idiotic, abrasive, demeaning, and Nish on the planet some days. Other days, it was like someone forgot to turn on his "sentient being" switch - the lights were on, no one was home. He was just going through the motions. He was predictably unpredictable as to which one he was that particular day.
The point is, I was letting him -- manipulate my feelings... poke/prod me into being upset, and trapped, and cornered -- and spitting angry and helpless all at once. Because it so offended me and my delicate sensibilities that there are even people like this on the planet. <That right there, is sarcasm.> There are WORSE people than Nboss; but it was this constant conflict between my personal values and his (lack of them??) that generated the emotions I went through; that conflict pinged LOUDLY off the gong that was my conflict with Nmom. It still happened, but not as much, after I saw that he was just another pathetic, grasping, controlling man with some sort of perpetual insecurity or shame that he felt he could hide by being an asshole. And that he was this way -- because he had no real power; he didn't know (despite my attempts to tell him - LOL....) how badly he treated others nor that there were any other ways of being. He was never accountable... so never "owned" anything -- good, bad, or indifferent. Meanwhile, I knew that at different times in my life - I'd have what some might call a fantasy; my hubs calls them dreams; Ts call them goals - and I knew I could change that dream into a reality. Hard work, research, more hard work... determination... asking for help when I needed it... one foot after the other & years later: old dream transforms into present reality. People like my Nboss??
They don't know how this happens -- nor why. Yet it's the most basic human "superpower" on the planet, I think.
Hopsy, I know there are just days when you need to whack the ole fart with whatever large object is at hand. And you won't let yourself act this way... so you gotta blow off steam. And then it's back to work again. We used to do this, too. Walking all over campus... or when we really needed privacy, there was always the server room... with the mechanical noise of boosted a/c and all those servers... you could hear raised voices, but couldn't decipher what was being said... outside.
I know I've been a nag about finding other jobs. But I'm changing my tune right now. You need to get your new house right -- and get moved in. And you need some sort talisman... to keep the Nboss energy out of your house... and remind you to leave it at work, where it belongs. The new house will be a sanctuary and refuge from all that crap. I hope this for you, anyway!
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Yup.
Yup and yup yup.
Yup, yup, ummm-hmmmm, yep-pers.
And Erin, you made me laugh. At my gender's expense but thank you.
Lighter I don't know about the energy thing, but do you suppose it has anything to do with me rumbling into useful chugging energy most when I am near those sparkly, twinkly, blinky, flashy Ns? That would be a rhetorical question. I think you're right. I think that I am uber-focused and uber-skillful and uber-alive around Ns (unless they're in active abusive mode, then it's despair) -- because I am so well wired to caretake them. AND, because on some level, I've always found them fascinating.
And PR you're right too. It's been soooo helpful to see over these years how Nboss is Nmom, but also is NOT. That was very well put and it is true. I have been thinking through a process very similar to what you described going through in your job.
Now that the two new young men have come on board, Nboss has begun to notice that THEY notice the dysfunction and toxicity coming from Production Man, and are disturbed by it. So because he can't bear for his OWN image to be sullied in their minds...AND because he's finally beginning to perceive Production Man as a threat to himself, believe it or not...he this week told him his behavior "in meetings" (subtext: toward me) had to change or his job was in jeopardy. I never thought that would happen. He called me for moral support before the meeting (he called all the senior staff) and told me he'd had heart palpitations at the prospect of another meeting with ProdMan. Of course ProdMan can't just take boss' job, but it was beginning to get to Nboss, so he's now doing something about it.
Even more amazing (though I am definitely not expecting real follow through). Nboss listened to me. I told him we could send all the white light we wanted to ProdMan's self to wish him healing for all the things that make him aggressive/destructive...but he ALSO really needs a psychologist. And Nboss who loathes the idea of therapy...asked me for T-names and is going to try to get ProdMan to do some counseling. What cracked me up though (Nbehavior crossed with guru-behavior) was when Nboss said, "And I am going with him to his first appointment so I can tell the therapist what I want.") I persuaded him that, ummm, you can't quite do that, and he'd need to make an initial appt. for himself, and then he could ask if a T he liked would be willing to see his employee if the employee was willing, etc. Who knows if that will go anywhere--I will be very unsurprised if it never happens--but it was a remarkable development.
And in one of those N-validates your experience for a moment--like the moment with my mother when she dropped all pretense and acknowledged my brother having "always hurt me"... This doesn't reach quite that level but Nboss looked at me and actually said, about ProdMan, "I'm sorry, you have been through a lot for the last 5+ years". The difference is, though I was grateful he said that, I didn't NEED him to. A few years back that would have meant everything. Now? Kind of, feh. I had already acknowledged my own experience, and had long since let go of any expectation that he could/would. I actually still enjoy my work (part of the time) and take some satisfaction in it. For non-Cinderella reasons. So the dynamic feels different.
I don't think it will ever be a "healthy workplace" but as I have gotten healthier my experience there is not as traumatic most days. Or when I'm upset I LET myself be upset. I don't feel paralysed. The two young men and I get along very well. But, long term, it'd be a very good idea to get out of there. So yes, PR, my plan is to get into my new home first because that is my focus now. But after that, I will probably be looking...just as a kind of sideline, always checking out other jobs. If I find the right thing I could do for another 10 years elsewhere, great. If not, I'll survive where I am...it'll be up and down and a grind, but I'd survive.
I am not feeling traumatized. What felt good here, especially knowing I had smart caring listeners to "vent at" -- was that when I vented and then went for a healing walk? I did. Good vent, very therapeutic, and likewise, good walk, very healing.
I have loved being able to talk about work stuff here, and I am very grateful to you all for commenting. THAT is very healing too.
love,
Hops
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Even more amazing (though I am definitely not expecting real follow through). Nboss listened to me. I told him we could send all the white light we wanted to ProdMan's self to wish him healing for all the things that make him aggressive/destructive...but he ALSO really needs a psychologist. And Nboss who loathes the idea of therapy...asked me for T-names and is going to try to get ProdMan to do some counseling. What cracked me up though (Nbehavior crossed with guru-behavior) was when Nboss said, "And I am going with him to his first appointment so I can tell the therapist what I want.") I persuaded him that, ummm, you can't quite do that, and he'd need to make an initial appt. for himself, and then he could ask if a T he liked would be willing to see his employee if the employee was willing, etc. Who knows if that will go anywhere--I will be very unsurprised if it never happens--but it was a remarkable development.
Thanks for sharing this, Hops!!!! I laughed out loud in total recognition of the - Nboss "concern" for ProdMan - pattern. He wants to order up a made to order T who will follow his directions... successfully supply the result he wants... and ProdMan will willingly comply. SNL couldn't come up with anything funnier than that, to me!!
Once, I had to tell my Nboss to his face, in a group meeting... "You can't simply tell people what to think... you can't manipulate them into agreeing with you... there is no humanly possible way to coerce people to change a dislike to a like whenever it's convenient for you". Went right over his head and I didn't really understand why all eyes were on me, at the time... until one by one, each person told me later they didn't know how I could come to work every day and deal with that.
I walked too. And there was a very quiet, private garden corner near my campus building... where I could go hide, sit, breathe, or cry.
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Thanks for sharing this, Hops!!!! I laughed out loud in total recognition of the - Nboss "concern" for ProdMan - pattern. He wants to order up a made to order T who will follow his directions... successfully supply the result he wants... and ProdMan will willingly comply. SNL couldn't come up with anything funnier than that, to me!!
Um, yeah, good luck with that.....
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I know. It still makes me laugh.
The entitlement of Ns in general is usually better disguised than that, but poor Nboss was so sheltered in the ashram from the real social world that he genuinely doesn't realize how shocking some of his arrogances/assumptions are to "regular folks" when he makes statements like that.
Another favorite was when he ordered employees to post fake reviews about his products and said, "Well if they have ethical issues about it they just have to get over that."
Yikes! But the "ordering therapy at the drive-through window for a passenger who is your prisoner" bit really got me too. (Who knew I could feel such sympathy for Production Man?) :lol:
In a weird way, I truly do. (But from a safer distance.)
Hops
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Two new proposals from Nboss:
1) He goes, do you know what "mirror listening" is? I go, yes--empathic listening, like in NVC, reflecting back what you understand the other person to be saying, etc.--yes, I've been in quite a few settings where we have done this. His idea: he and my colleague who's paid more than I (though I am equal in responsibility) will sit with me for 30 minutes and then with ProdMan for 30 minutes, having us each share with them how the other makes us FEEL. Then they will bring ProdMan and me in together and we'll all talk about it together (meaning, Nboss and Otherguy sum it up for us). He was delighted with his idea, "I think this is really good!" he says--looking at me like, "Don't take away my cupcake."
I said, with the greatest respect, I really need to pause and think about this. And then, you know, I have to say that this sounds like an extremely vulnerable, naked kind of exercise. (He's nodding excitedly.) And although I feel I owe the company honesty and my best performance, I don't think I feel safe engaging in this kind of exercise here in the workplace unless it is guided by an outside professional (meaning, licensed clinical psychologist). His face falls. I say, "It just doesn't feel safe to me." (He always makes a big deal about how everyone needs to feel "safe" -- even while he plays his games w/our heads.) But I say, clearly, "I do not want to do that." So he backs down. (Disappointment reeking.)
2) Day later. He says, "I have a new idea!" This time, it's "I will make ProdMan sit one at a time with each employee, with me there, and each employee can tell ProdMan how he makes them FEEL" and then he can take notes, and go off and have someone outside to talk to about it. (I am still hesitating. He says, well if you don't feel safe doing that then I can have you write it all out, and I'll tell ProdMan--she didn't feel safe enough to do this...like everybody else.) I ask if I can think about it for a while.
The dilemma for me is:
The f-u dynamic that's toxic at the company is because of NBOSS and his interplay with PRODMAN (and next, ProdMan's interplay with--rather, at--me). Nboss would eat razor blades rather than go to a T himself. So he keeps posing as the all-good spiritual mentor who can "lead" these scrapping employees "into the light".
What makes me resist all these encounter-group kinds of things Nboss keeps proposing is not just fear of ProdMan (though I believe he could snap and do me harm, it's unlikely). It's fear of NBOSS. I don't trust him. He's manipulative as hell. He toys with us as though we're chess pieces. He gets OFF on it all. But he's the person who signs my paycheck and I need my job.
So, to keep saying No to him, is risky. I told him, if every other employee here is agreeing to this I will do the process like anyone else. And he said, we'll talk about it again after your trip. (He did consult one outsider pro--a pscyhologist-turned-Rolfer-turned-Avatar/dreamquest/supplement hawker/visionary leader...sound familiar?---whom he already knows. He will do anything to avoid going to meet a straightforward, community therapist with an excellent reputation.)
So my guess is, if he offers ProdMan any sort of "outsider" therapy, it will be something with someone Nboss is still controlling in some way.
Aaaaaaaggggggghhhhh. (I also have the fantasy of actually quietly going along, and when it is my turn, telling the truth: I actually think this process is not about just a dysfunction between you and me, ProdMan, but between Nboss and you, and in a way I feel we're all here because there are dynamics between the two of you that would benefit from counseling, but the employees are being asked to go through yet another "intimacy exercise" and the problem is at the top.
Of course, I'd be clearing out my desk within a month, likely.
Thanks for listening
Hops
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OMG...OMG.....OMG!
How on earth do you stand it, Hops?
I tell you what, I could not work there. I don't care if it was the best job in the world, I would have quit or got fired years ago. You are amazingly brave and strong to keep going in that place day after day.
Now see, this is exactly why I like where I work. We just let it all hang out. I usually know somebody is mad at me when my shoes come up missing. Then I know to look in the false ceiling and get them back. Every year or two somebody gets in a big ol' cat fight and they threaten to fire everybody, then everything settles down and it all goes back to normal.
I like your idea of sitting in the group and then saying, "How do I feel about this? I feel like its a lot of bullshit!" Too bad you cant get away with that one.
If it was me, I would jsut sit there and say something that sounded good, thn go back to work. You know nothing is going to change anyway.
Good luck. It's almost Friday.
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Aaaaaaaggggggghhhhh.
Aaaaaaaggggggghhhhh. Right along with you, Hops.
I've got to believe that there is a right answer to this dilemma. I don't know what it is. I will think on it awhile - and hopefully inspiration will strike in time. Maybe in the meantime, ProdMan will cross some boundary that forces Nboss' hand in some way.
Fingers crossed, eyes closed.... I wish....
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Erin, thank you:
I would just sit there and say something that sounded good, then go back to work. You know nothing is going to change anyway.
This is really sane, sound advice.
D'uh! I think it probably really IS that straightforward.
(I just get kind of re-traumatized when Nboss drags me through his fantasies and game stuff.)
I am going to try to just get my emotional boundaries back UP and be too darn busy to let Nboss "play with my head" about ProdMan as much as he's been doing lately. That has felt like a setback.
Thank you for helping me get the aluminum scrap back in my spine.... :)
Hops
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That has been my strategy for years, in dealing with all kinds of BS. remember, any physicist will tell you the path of least resistence is Nature's way.
Only 1 day til the weekend. Good luck!
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Oy, Hops, how do you sit there and not cross your eyes while listening to NBoss's ideas?
This is a game for him, oh so very fun. The glee of watching everyone expose themselves emotionally, with him there to to tisk tisk over the likely fallout.
Whoo hoo, huh?
This is a terrible game, and a terrible idea, all at your expense, though it's a safe bet Prodman, and everyone else in the office, is feeling like their towels about to ripped away as well.
What have the new-hire-boys said about the NBoss' proposals?
What a nutsy rocksy koo koo crazy idea for the boss sit everyone down, and do this strange version of "couple's therapy" with all the employees.
It seems he's more interested in showcasing this toxic behavior, than laying out rules of engagement, consequences for failing to comply, and follow through, IMO.
Do you think it makes NBoss feel like a hero?
Does all this running around, gazing into everyone's navels, absolve him of all his transgressions against you?
I can't wait to hear what the new-hire-boys have to say about it.
Lighter
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You have nabbed, nailed, and named Nboss, Lighter, in every respect.
(I told all 3 of my colleagues, in detail, what I object to--the "paid more guy" and the 2 young ones. The 2 young ones agreed completely,
and paid-more guy, company man to his toenails, evaded offering a brave opinion but made it clear he understood my point.) He takes "NVC" to such a namby pamby extreme.
Nboss may have a minor rebellion on his hands if he tries to implement his gestalt game, but at least everybody's forewarned.
I will do an Erin. Say something that sounds good, make some cooperative noises, and keep my emotional distance.
Hopefully he'll forget about it by the time we get back from a week out of town (big trade show). I've set him up
with a few industry media opportunities, and he's so excited about THAT N-attention he's diverted for now.
Thank you all for listening and reacting, helped me shake off the Yucks.
I am flying off Sunday. No interest in the town whatsoever and I've got a sore throat. And have to answer questions all day.
I am imagining being pleasant during 10-hour workdays, then crawling into my hotel room and HBO.
Will have laptop so will check in!
xo
Hops
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Hops - you found the one way I would've suggested to deal with the situation, on your own. Distract him - give him some other bright, shiny, N-ish thing to sink his teeth into. I'll keep my fingers crossed this works!!
WOW... Lighter's take is dead-on, isn't it? It still doesn't take away the yuck-factor for me though. And I had a bad experience with Gestalt techniques... let's just say I don't feel it's consistent with the recognition and respect of healthy boundaries. I would, if Nboss won't relent or forget about this idea... beg off, conscientiously object to the exercise on the grounds that it would undo all the progress you've made working on your own personal boundaries.
If he doesn't buy that - take him a note from your T.
OH... and if he questions why you see a T: a.) it's none of his business and b.) if he's so curious, perhaps he should see one himself. Tell him there are a lot of common misperceptions about what goes on... but that in reality, it's like an emotional high colonic - a detoxing technique. (HA! Bait the hook... play it in the water... and just maybe...)
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Thanks, PR. It's really a cyclical thing. I think he will persist in one way or another, anything to have employees jump through a lot of hoops (with him watching but doing no risking himself)...so he can sidestep accountability or confrontation (therapeutic or otherwise) with himself. I remember when he made all the senior staff do the Meyers Briggs and stand up and explain their personalities in detail to the entire company. I looked at him and chirpily asked, When will you be presenting yours? He immediately started mumbling, oh I don't think it's that great a tool, I prefer the Eneagram, and changed the subject. Busted. So...again, OTHERS had to be vulnerable, not the guru.
He does get diverted when I make thiNgs happen for him that he craves, that he can't arrange/attract on his own. Likewise when I edit his leaden stuff into more personable prose...which he sends everywhere. He actually asked me to co-write a book with him once. I made a series of dumb excuses and went back to myself thinking, I'd shoot myself first! Can't imagine a more draining, horrible use of ... this.
Anyhow, I really don't think he'll pursue it much, when he gets general pushback. If he does, no, I won't refuse (and thus be "the one who wouldn't play on the team"). But I can defuse it for myself in other ways (mediating during, take a Valium before, memorize a few deep-sounding observations, speak French, whatever). I'll be okay.
I never ever have or would share with him that I personally see a T. Yoicks. Way too inviting of more invasions. He just asked me if I know of anyone in the community, since he lives way out of town and I'm a multi-decades resident connected to people in town/church/volunteer orgs, etc. He knows I'm interested in/respect the language/systems of pychology. That's all. I told him I asked a knowledgeable friend for suggestions and he didn't pry who/where/why.
It ain't going to happen anyway, though perhaps he'll persuade ProdMan to go. I dunno. It would be amazing if he went himself.
Hops
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Oh lord... he's into Enneagram types? Deja vu... bet you $10 he knows my ex#2.
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Hops:
I'm glad to read you're feeling more centered, and less yuck.
Your plan to deal with NBoss intrusion sounds squared away, IMO.
Sorry your throat hurts at such a busy, pressured time, but you'll snug into your clean hotel bed, and heal when you can.
I wonder if the sore throat is an allergy thing? Maybe try some Allovert..... that always delivers immediage allergy relief, if it's that, or signals something else if it doesn't help.
Do I dare suggest......
the dreaded netty pot?
Heyyyyy.... it could be more than a very funny story for the board.
It might actually help; )
Lighter
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Whaever happened, Hops? I have a work-horror story about my hubs, and how he might not get paid for 2 weeks, but I dont want to hijack you t thread.
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You won't, Erin!
I LIKE IT when a thread I start wanders into other folks' lives too.
(My week went grinding on, nothing too terrible happened, and a classic company meeting ended it with Nboss leading us all in yoga stretches--not voluntary of course--which gave him an opportunity to go around touching everybody and making little 'corrections'...bleaaaahhhhh. But it's okay for now.)
What happened with your hub?
Hops
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Hops your boss sounds just weird! Touching people and yoga stretches? Oh my God!? Sending anti weirdo vibes your way! ((((((Hops)))))))