Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sKePTiKal on April 03, 2013, 11:01:43 AM
-
Hops, your warning was timely. I've gone on and deleted my thread, as a (admittedly paranoid) precaution. I'll continue, over on Member's Only.
Penny - thanks for the book recommendations! I think Hubs & I were Amazon's first customers.
-
OH... and I guess I have a question. It was my understanding that the member's stories section was only available to actual "members" of the board and that guests didn't have access. Is this correct?
Just making sure.
-
I don't think it's a secure area only members can read. I thought it was just a way of organizing initial narratives that people wanted to write. And then the idea was that rather than have "messages" about those stories stay (and fill up) the Members Stories area, people would keep current dialogue to the Message Board instead.
But Doc G can clarify, I might have it wrong.
I'm kind disappointed to see your thread gone from here, as it's meant a lot to me to be able to read daily updates on what you're all going through...
Would it be too hard to just edit names back to initials and then repost it on the Message Board?
Sorry if I alarmed you. I'm just cautious that way.
love
Hops
-
Hi Skeptikal,
Hops is correct: guests can read any board.
Richard
-
Busy day yesterday. Anxious day, too.
I'm sorry, Hops - things are heating up; I'm not sure which way they're going; so at first, I did just go and edit the names. Then I realized where all this might go... and since a certain party has her computer back, and someone posted bail for her, or they're "trusting her" to make payments, whatever... well, better safe than sorry. And since mostly, the thread is me processing out all my feelings through the quaqmire of the logistics of the situation... I decided at least to make it a little harder to find it. I seem to be the main target of hostilities; have been since at least, last summer. I didn't just jump to an extreme reaction. I am concerned that it's difficult for some folks to read, too.
Thanks, Dr. G - I guess we all sorta believe what we wish was true, sometimes, huh? There WAS a lot of good stuff in that thread about a newbie trying to navigate in an unfamiliar world and system. Learning on the fly, deciding - changing one's mind, charging in and backing off, and the basic emotional math of living and getting through a difficult time.
I have so many notes, and it's so vivid in my mind - I can recreate it, I think.
Yesterday, my hair guru was ill, so I've been working with someone else in the shop who's been there a long time. She and I have sort of clicked - she's quirky, funny, and about my age it turns out. I wasn't going to bare my soul yesterday, until I sat in her chair and it all started to pour out... LOL. From voiceless, to can't shut up - and tell the whole world about it. It's hilarious. But it also feels good - like flipping the bird to shame - and refusing to own shame that belongs to another.
Anyway, turns out earlier that morning, she had a little girl walk-in, with a psycho-mom. Woman was brow-beating the girl about looking like a dork and not being able to take care of her own hair at 13, (WHY is this such a theme with all of these wack-moms?) and the woman was nasty and rude to the stylist, too. The stylist herself has a psycho-mom; when her uncle died they purposefully had a private funeral -- just to exclude her mom... and we were talking about how validating it is, when other people start to agree: yep! so-so is bat-s$%* crazy!! That got her pouring out ideas, and stories, about a book she wants to write... I told her, think about how many people have sat in this chair... and told you things like this or worse... and even better: make up a person and tell your autobiographical stories... your mom will point fingers, not believing people could be like that, and never know it was about her. That's the way they are, these zombie moms...
Anyway... she may end up doing my hair a lot more... just so's we can commiserate and have our own therapy session. I so like where I live these days.
-
How are you guys doing, sKeptiKal?
Lighter
-
Better, Lighter; thanks!
I got outside to clean up a side yard yesterday after talking to H. She's still in contact with her sis... who had supervised visits with the boys yesterday. They are separated, for now. H has been working a lot since getting home. A master-procrastinator, she hasn't had any talks with her sweetie or done any research yet... which under the circumstances, right now, isn't that big a deal. Both of them, really need some "normal" - they were dealing with boys or the sis' situation all last month - did the same thing I did; drop everything to deal with crisis... and so they need some time "off".
A has to come back up here for her court date on Wed. It will be interesting to see what happens, since she is an out of state resident. If she'd been in-state, I know the penalty would be high... one reason I like this place, is that the values are pretty traditional; old-fashioned. But I'm keeping my distance - she can call H and H can fill me in. We have talked about how A "interprets" things in weird ways... and they had a conversation about a topic we've talked about, from time to time...
A had said, that perception is the very same thing as reality...
H said, no - perception can be very different than reality... that's why I sometimes second-guess myself so much...
and A insisted that perception = reality.
H and I talked about that; somewhere recently I've read that a measure of sanity-insanity depends on how closely perception matches or is congruent with commonly-accepted "reality". (yeah, I know it's not quite that simple...) But, I've been through the discrepency (sp?) phase myself - where I thought I was so awful, that I wasn't fit for human "consumption" and didn't deserve to breathe... and that didn't match up with feedback I got from other people. Twisted beliefs, based on my warped relationship with my mom...
so my thoughts naturally go to my relationship with A... and what, if anything, I might've done "wrong" or missed or ?? But honestly, I can't put my finger on anything. All I know is that when A was in 4th grade, she changed drastically. I don't have many clues as to why. She was in a very good school, and when she stopped doing her homework, was tested. It wasn't that she couldn't do math - on the contrary, the level taught in the classroom was boring, because she was capable of doing a couple grades higher work. The recommendation, was that perhaps she was resorting to negative ways to obtain attention... so we paid attention to her, and helped her find something she excelled at (without pushing). That turned out to be piano and music. Gifted kid played 20 different instruments and could pick up anything and make it sound good immediately.
But, she had the same rules as the 3 other kids... same chores... etc. Even then, she started to demonstrate that she believed that since she was "special" in some way, that she felt she didn't have to abide by the rules and it escalated to extremes, in a big hurry. She couldn't manipulate me or ex #2... so she worked up a situation, to get to live with her Dad (ex #1) who told the girls awful things about me - that I denied, and explained when I heard about them... reminded them of what our lives together had been like... and then she proceeded to wrap Dad around her little finger... and get away with all kinds of things, while H pulled her butt out of the fire, covered for her... and took the blame, most times.
One thing I hadn't considered before, that comes up above... is that "brainwashing" technique that some divorced parents indulge in. Like my mom about my Dad. And how that does impact "perception"... one's inner interpretation of reality and even self-worth. Something to chew on for a bit... and toss around with H. That could possibly be a way through some of the "delusions"... to reach the real A. I can't remember what it's called; maybe it'll come to me after a bit...
and I've decided to send H my research papers on attachment theory. She's real interested from the one boy's perspective and "issues". And I do think this has something to do with certain symptoms.
How come humans don't come with their own manuals?? LOL.
-
sKep:
When I went through the divorce course, it was stressed that children internalize their parents into their own identities. In other words, children are 50% mom and50% dad, and they see themselves as good or bad, according to how the perceive their parents. I'm sure there's an easier way to put that, but it became clear I would be presenting a very sanitized age appropriate version of who the children's father really was...... ill, but otherwise lovely, talented and good, stressing the positives, and leaving out the negatives until they were grown and ready to deal with other age appropriate truths.
Maybe your ex1 tweaked A's image of you, and herself, with his sabotage?
Bastager.
Lighter
-
In a nutshell, yes, Lighter.
In reality, it's a lot more complicated than that... at least, it was when I was going through it, as a kid. I haven't really pondered it much yet. Yesterday, finished up the part of a bed I started on Sat. Now on to the visible front of the house! (AFTER my massage - so it might be tomorrow). Then I have to "order" phase 2 of our storm shutters and truckloads of topsoil & mulch... and put my fancy-pants raised beds together for my veggie gardens.
We've had an extremely cool spring so far, and while that means I can get out & work sans bugs & snakes, the pollen is just starting. It can be so thick here, it blows in clouds like snow or fog. And of course, the Natl. Hurricane Center is predicting higher than average numbers of storms this year... with higher than average mid-atlantic landfall. LOL! I wonder, if they've ever subjected their models to control for "normalcy bias"? (We had storms last year, so "logically" we should anticipate as many or more this year...) It's kinda funny...
The problem with Ex #1... and what A might've absorbed & identified her "self" with... is the fact that he projected a whole lot of stuff, while finding some heinous ways of absolving himself of responsibility/accountability. My favorite one, is that due to the fact that he was "saved", he could smoke pot... and it was just fine... because he had a "get out of jail free" card, because he was saved. No matter ones' religious beliefs... none of them works this way, do they?
-
sKep:
I'm glad to read you're preparing raised beds, and going through the spring ablutions.
I'm about to wash the dog, his kennel, and all his bedding.... the sun feels good. My oldest climbed a tree yesterday... it was like the official end of winter for us.
I'm also waiting to see what bulbs pop up in planters I tend at childrens' school..... I can't quite remember what I put where, as my neighbor handed off big clumps of many different things, and I was planting my heart out in a rush there for a while. Kind of exciting to be surprised.
I can't wait to get my hands on potato vines... they flow out of pots so prettily. And the Creeping Jenny. I planted lots last year, and it should be lovely.
I'm glad you're feeling better, A.
I'm having a good week to, all considered: )
Lighter
-
My plantings used to be so extensive, and artistically (!?) jumbled... that I had to make maps, of what was where. It did help me from digging up the bulbs and bi-ennials... as I ran of out of space.
Parental Alienation... that's the official term I was trying to think of. But it's effects are way more complex than that sounds, in some kids.
LOL... I realized... I've been telling almost everyone I come in contact with, what we've all been through. My massage sensei, grew up in a foster home... and that's where she was visiting, when I scheduled. Everyone I confide in has their OWN STORY about something similar... so much so, that I'm starting to realize that it would be a lovely, refreshing thing to be able to talk openly about the variations of child abuse... casually... without all the "shock and awe"... one-upsmanship competition (my mom was worse than your mom)...
sorta like how menopause became more "socially acceptable" in conversation, you know? De-stigmatize it. Make it a month's study plan in all those "family life" classes in High School (do they still do those? How come balancing a checkbook isn't part of that?) So that kids will KNOW what this is, and why it's "bad"... and learn that life doesn't HAVE TO BE THIS WAY? If only they'd talk, say what happens, tell someone.
I'm starting to feel like H and I have done ENOUGH; that what we've accomplished - getting the boys to talk, tell their stories, get them in better homes where they're safe(er), and even "introductory level" counselling... is enough for the boys to realize that they DO MATTER, what happened to them matters to adults who CARE, and that what happened to them was bad -- but it doesn't mean that THEY are bad. If Twigs had had this... and the ability to break that sworn silence on "family secrets" that was nobody else's business, according to Mom... things might've been very different in my life. (Not that I think it was all that horrible... looking at the whole timeline. And comparatively, the boys have been through much worse.)
H is still having nightmares. Of course, she's still speaking to A and slowly beginning to see why I've gone NC for the time being. You simply can not speak or have the same expectations of an irrational person, as you would a rational one. Until; IF; A is able to understand that other people are really people too - with feelings, and thoughts that are beyond her ability to control and twist around - talking to A is an exercise in futility for me - it's the old pretzel dance: twist around, upside-down and inside-out until black is white and it's spinning so fast all one sees is fuzzy and gray. It is dangerous for me to "go there"... and it's a distraction for H with other dangers, too.
H is also upset at the lack of information/communication with DSS. I've explained that things move more slowly there; to give them space and some time. Pointed out, that there's no machine they run a test on the boys with, to instantly spit out a comprehensive diagnosis and treatment plan. This is going to take time, too. It's important not to rush it... and risk missing something really important. Heck, it took 8 days to figure out what was wrong with her car -- and the check engine light is still coming on -- so there must be yet one more thing that needs to be addressed (16 days, total, now and 2 different shops).
I've also suggested she "check her assumptions". By herself, she believes that it's possible to erase - and make like it never happened - what the boys have already experienced in life. Practically speaking, she knows she's going to need tons of help, to "make it so". But it's that desire - wish - that's getting in the way of her realizing that what happened; HAPPENED - and it's now part of who the boys are. Yes, they're young enough that getting help now, will have the best possible effects on helping them "catch up" developmentally and up to a normal maturity level for their age cohort. The fact that someone ELSE is providing that - and not her - is just fine... and in fact, may actually be BETTER for the boys in the long run.
I think she's avoiding the part that is her job (right now), which is making the time to talk to her fiance/hubby, talk all the way around everything... without making a decision about whether they are able to take on this responsibility, ultimately. Leave the decision part, for later. And to also research for herself (not just pick mom's brain) about what kids who've grown up like this might be like, what they need, how people do actually help kids like this. In the process, I think she'll see where she keeps crossing the line from caring - to being over-responsible, a caretaker... while throwing herself under the bus and then bleeding all over everyone - which in my experience, just makes it all so much worse. Everyone around her, is trying to help her realize that she's throwing herself under the bus -- all by herself -- and she DOESN'T HAVE TO; it doesn't automatically make things better. But that's her instinct... has been for a long, long time. I used to have to explain to her, that stray cats or dogs may turn on you and bite. (Two-legged ones, too.)
I guess I'm rehearsing what I'm going to write to her and her fiance and enclose with my Alan Schore white papers on attachment theory. H absolutely can not do what she wants to do, alone. And I don't believe she needs to be throwing her relationship - or herself - under the bus, to be a good person trying to do the best she can for those kids. What we've already done - as much as humanly possible under the circumstances - just might be ENOUGH. For now.
-
sKep:
That all made sense. I hope H can hear you.
Lighter
-
LOL... I just did a copy/paste of what I just wrote to start editing the letter.
H hears me loud & clear - even when she disagrees. She was the rare teenager, and now adult, that wants to know what everyone else thinks, their experiences and epiphanies, and she'll absorb it.... go away and digest it... and then do her own thinking, make her own opinions. We allowed her the space to do this - after "Phase I" of living with A and Dad - and it was very helpful to her... and became one of her inner strengths. She still had the usual stumbles after that... but she was mature enough and strong enough... to take on her sister again... and again... and again... trying to do the "right thing" - even when it was like trying to drag A, kicking and screaming obscenities and awfully mean things, toward the goal of "growing up".
Until I told her, that is, that she couldn't live A's life for her -- and that after all of what she'd already sacrificed, I wanted H to have her OWN life. Guess I need to say that again, too.
Thanks for hanging in there with me, Lighter. Honestly, I feel pretty clear. The massage helped, even if I still hurt in every muscle and tendon on the left side - it's looser. And I'm not over-compensating as much on the right side. TIME... I think, is under-rated, as a healing agent... even if we have so many cliches about it. Distance, also - as in boundaries. I still didn't get everything "right" this go-round, but I got enough of it right... that I think the lessons are gonna "stick" and I don't have to anxiously bird-dog myself so much, any more.
PHEW!!! lol....
-
Just so everyone knows, a google search of our user names does produce hits to our posts on this board. That's why I changed my user name to "JustKathy" after so many years on the board. My original username was a common moniker that I use. It matched my email address, eBay seller ID, Etsy seller ID, and several other groups that I belong to. One day I googled the name to see what NM would find if she did the same, and it did show some hits to activity on this board.
I just now ran a google search on "JustKathy," and this showed up on page 4 of the search:
Recent Posts
www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?action=recent
Started by JustKathy - Last post by JustKathy. Unfortunately, they'll never give up. The more I try to be NC, the more they stalk me and do whatever they can to ...
So yes, someone who is searching your online activity might get some info since google includes the first few words of your post. Whatever name you use here, make sure it is very unique and unlike any other name you use elsewhere online. I don't believe they can come to this board and read an entire thread without logging in, but they CAN trace us here if they know our user name.
-
Isn't it just absurd, beyond the pale even... that we have to think this way? (It's not paranoid to want to protect your privacy, in my book!)
I have more usernames and passwords than I can even keep track of. So I have to break the first rule of online security - I have to write them down. I hadn't changed my ID here for years, so really from my inner perspective - it was time anyway.
Been trying to put in 3-4 hours a day, working outside (and so the inside is a wreck)... getting caught up with projects and jobs that got put on hold. It's pollen season now, we wash outdoor furniture (or keep it covered) and cars on a daily basis; it blows around in clouds like snow... it's that thick here. If I drive the mile to the ocean - there are no trees; and a lot less pollen. But I'd really like to get at least some of my beds in and planted for this summer's crops... even if it's not a lot, it's something. The fruits and veg's in all the stores... well, the quality doesn't seem as good lately - for whatever reason. Hubs had a really helpful idea this morning - something that'll make the work easier, in the long run. I think I'll keep him around - LOL.
And for whatever reason, all the personal upheaval I've been going through, is breaking apart some my life-long habits about food now... albeit SLOWLY... but that's OK, it IS changing.
-
I'm so glad you're still finding time to experience the amazing power of spring, Skep...
May soft ocean breezes bring you many moments of pause-for-peace, despite the
cauldron your family's been plopped in.
hugs
Hops
-
(It's not paranoid to want to protect your privacy, in my book!)
No, it's not paranoid at all. Paranoia, by definition, is an irrational or delusional fear. In our cases, we KNOW that our N parents are watching us. Our concerns are very real, so we're being being perfectly rational in wanting to protect our privacy.
-
Kathy, we sure nuff know we have to go out of our way to protect ourselves. Sometimes from the Ns... and I find, also... sometimes from my reaction to the Ns. My reaction to the Ns can be even worse to endure that the incident that provoked it.
And there are so many FLAVORS of N-ism... I'm starting to get curious about the difference. I'm gonna guess that each individual N is his or her own unique combination of multiple "isms" and dysfunctions... and that the reasons are all unique circumstances too (even if the reactions, adoption of the specific defense mechanism, all start to look like there's a pattern in it). Before, it was enough for me to know they were dangerous to my own sanity... and give them as wide a berth as I could. This situation is different.
I think the one characteristic that drives me 'round the bend, up walls, and gets me bouncing off ceilings screaming angry is the ability to live in a delusional reality... and cling to it in the face of evidence to the contrary. (One of many reasons I'll never be able to do any counseling! LOL!!) Don't really understand why my reaction is SOOOOOOOOO extreme; maybe it has something to do with how it feels, when one tells the truth - and then is told "that didn't happen"; when one is not believed and gaslighted... one questions one's own sanity. And that is so scary to me, that I reach for my old double-edged sword of angry outrage. Dunno.
I managed to sit on this, during all the face to face meetings. Not so, the phone call a couple days ago. Again, I was "good" during the call - but it was the reaction AFTER that's caused the delay in posting the update. Which I'm going to go write, now. Hope it's coherent... there is still extreme emotion behind the thoughts.
-
I get that...it reminds me of denial, as in alcoholic denial.
The N-denial, alcoholic denial, feel exactly the same.
Reality = one thing, their ability to face or acknowledge it = another.
I read more, over the years, about alcoholism than about Nism, really.
One thing that kind of impacted me, eventually, was the belated comprehension
that denial (which sounds like something coming from the mind, as it's expressed
in words and behavior) is actually a SYMPTOM in the truly medical sense.
So, when I would hear my friend Gennulman circling around and around,
ignoring facts, just going kind of blank about an obvious conclusion when
anyone not sick with alcoholism would be able to say Yes, this is real, and
1 + 1 DOES equal Consequence 2...he literally couldn't.
Came to me where I realized I was profoundly stuck on believing that
his "couldn't" was a "wouldn't" ...but perhaps his "couldn't" really was a
"couldn't" and that "couldn't" in each moment he expressed it, was the symptom of denial.
Like a diabetic who SOMETIMES has low blood sugar symptoms, but not at
other times, he had a MENTAL symptom of denial that was present sometimes
but not at other times. So when it did express, I was never ready, because I
was thinking I was engaged with the rest of him...the rational non-symptomatic mind.
But in a flash, the symptom was speaking again. I finally figured it really was a brain
disorder and I needed to see every instance of denial-speech, as just a symptom...showing.
Though he spoke in language and was in other ways brilliant, when it
came to his disease and its real consequences, his symptom made him
speak stupid things.
Dunno if it's exactly the same with N-denial, but it sure looks that way to me.
xo
Hops
-
Thanks Hops... that's exactly the thing I'm dealing with. The slight difference in shade from couldn't to wouldn't... helps.
In this D's case, things are complicated by the fact that there are (at least) 2 things going on... and the alcoholism, was where she escaped from the other thing. I understand, from folks who've worked more with severe cases of alcoholism, that being sober isn't always enough to stop that kind of, that level of denial... that something in the brain (habit's long reach?? or something more bio-based?)... actually changes. This is the outer skin of the "onion", I'm dealing with.
Then, there is whatever motivated the run toward a fantasy, a delusion, an escape in the first place. Something so frightening, or perceived to be SO AWFUL, SO PAINFUL and TABOO, that it must be forever and completely denied. I guess I have to include, my "adventures with Twigs", as an extreme example of that kind of denial. (And of course, the level of denial I experienced in my mom, was a direct source of much of the pain.) I have long suspected that something like this was at the root of my NMs issues; there are tantalizing "clues" in her history from her own telling of the story and other people's.
With this D, it's possible also. There are stone walls, steel doors, and fantastically projected images meant to distract on the face of them. Extreme isolation of self combined with an urgent, undeniable, "look at me" that interrupts and interjects and steamrolls every other person and thing around her... so that one overlooks or misses the ugly or painful thing she's trying to hide. This is another kind of denial.
Knowing my own weakness in the face of this, I instinctively (first)... then consciously, later decided to act simply as "observer", referee, etc. I kinda knew my getting triggered wouldn't help anyone and would only complicate things. So, I guess it makes sense, that once I was safely away... I wasn't protecting the boys... and I had my "own space"... it was time to dive headfirst into all that stuff that came up, in reaction to this symptom. And of course, talking to her... getting the denial about the boys... hits damn close to home with me on a lot of levels. OK.
Time - more time - is needed. All the way around. This feature of the D's personality might change over more time and more work; it might not. Me insisting on this one thing isn't useful either - the outcome is completely out of my control. But I don't have to "prove I can take it"... when I can't, either. More time, maybe... will help. As to the debated/denied issue at hand - whether there was abuse - this will be determined by someone other than her, or me. I'm good with that, even if I can't get the D to understand that this is the reality.
Thanks Hops. Next question!
When a person lives at the beach, where do they go for vacation? I have so many projects here that I'm trying to get caught up on... and I'm even behind on the usual chores... and I have this urge to simply run away - flee - and leave it all behind.
-
the outcome is completely out of my control. But I don't have to "prove I can take it"... when I can't, either.
Bravo. That is so hard to get to.
And you got there.
I am glad that others will be engaged with her, however imperfectly they do it. You are as smart and knowledgeable as any, and often smarter, but it cannot be you who is her rescuer and healer. You're too close and too triggered, and strong and smart as you are, you're not THAT strong and smart. Because you can't take it. And it's great you have had the kindness to your inner self, to say so.
Grappling with your feelings about not being able to save her is grieving for so many things, in so many directions. But you're right about time, too.
Hang in there...
Hops
-
Wow. Just Wow. Observations.
The "story" or "narrative" that exists in A's brain... is so far from "realistic" that it's definitely a problem in and of itself. The anger and hostility that erupts if one challenges that? Huge. Makes communication impossible. Even when something has been said, simply and clearly, she hears something completely different. Then there's always the "parting shot" - last time, it was "don't hate me 'coz I'm awesome" - that leaves a person just shaking their head.
Another observation, is that H is able to coherently SAY what is in my brain, that won't come out my mouth. In such a way, that it doesn't invoke the hostility, even. Wow.
Last one: I'm just now seeing, that my brain only works at it's best with someone else's... that I need feedback, different opinions and ideas, the obvious that I miss so often, while sifting through details. "Brainstorming" in a group is my ideal situation; optimum functioning. Thinking by myself? Too often, that's the blind leading the blind... I haven't picked at that much yet; nor tried to feel my way into understanding if it's even that important... it might not be.
And I'm staying physically busy, to help "processing"... and not "over think" things too much.