Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dr. Richard Grossman on November 29, 2015, 05:02:41 PM
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Carly Simon has a new memoir out, “Boys in the Trees,” and, not surprisingly, narcissism and voicelessness (barely able to get words out) weigh. The Washington Post—Geoff Edgars—had this piece on it:
"These six tragic revelations from Carly Simon’s memoir will make you ashamed to be a man (if you are a man)"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2015/11/20/these-six-tragic-revelations-from-carly-simons-memoir-will-make-you-ashamed-to-be-a-man-if-you-are-a-man/
All comments are welcome…
Richard
P.S. Thanks to my brother, Jeff, for sending the article my way...
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Guilt isn't collective.
The guys who mistreated her should be ashamed of themselves, but why should I be ashamed on their behalf?
Some of her choices seem less than stellar; she married a junky and he didn't treat her well. Quelle surprise!
mud
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I still find the way we repeat early relationships through our lives fascinating. I know I've done it myself for years, and have now been in a 'relationshipless' phase for a long time as I've not met anyone new that I feel I can have a healthy relationship with. I used to feel a lot of anger at men who have treated me badly in the past but these days I think I was really more angry at myself for not having better boundaries or a level of self esteem that meant I wouldn't tolerate or be attracted to men who treated me badly. I 'think' my self esteem is better these days; I don't feel an urge to be with men like that anymore but I've not actually been in a relationship to test it out. I'm not sure I entirely agree with the 'name and shame' approach in memoirs of famous people as the other person hasn't usually been given a chance to put their own point of view across (after all, I think people who treat other people badly have usually been treated badly themselves - it's possible that some of the men named were themselves a product of an unhappy childhood or abusive behaviour at some point and that was how they dealt with it). It doesn't excuse things but I think it makes the situation more complicated.
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If you're sensitive or justice oriented, sexism and powerlessness can grind down your heart like an iron file.
Having more sex unfortunately doesn't reduce sexism.
Hops
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I think the only men who should be shamed by Carly's story are the men responsible for the behaviors in the book.
Of course, those types of men aren't the sorts to feel shame, IME.
Lighter
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Hmmmm I will try to restrain myself and not start sounding like stampeding horses through the pleasant meadow of the denial that males live in in our culture.
Why should a man take responsibility for the bad behaviour of a drug addicted king baby jerk? this is a good question. Even voicing it means there is some sort of start. i think the point is that Carly Simon has a snowballs chance in hell of being heard by men but women will feel heard, acknowledged and proud of her for coming out of the cloak of shame and silence she lived in.
If it could happen to someone rich, gifted, beautiful and famous, then it is probably happening a lot.
I think that men need to take some responsibility for the snide comments they hear about women, they need to stop sniggering and treating women like fuck puppets. THey need to stop expecting women to be their nurses and purses and for working full time and taking care of kids and housekeeping. Are you KIDDDDIng me?
Have you taken a glance at the statistics for rape????? Good grief. One in four girls will be sexually assaulted by the time they are 18. Of every 1000 rape cases that go through court
5 percent are found guilty. i guess that is why women don't report. It is an undereported crime. Because men don't get it. It is a cultural norm to rape women. Obviously, the victims are not being heard so it is pretty much time for MEN to step up and telll their good buddies to treat women with respect. But that does not happen. They let ole Fred get away with disparaging women and seeing them as disposable sex objects and just laugh it off. Wouldn['t want to cause a trouble over such a thing.
So Carly deserved what she got. I see your point. I just think that she got what most women get. Who the hell doesn't have a boyfriend who gets stoned or drinks or cheats or watches port. It is a cultural norm. So i am not going to blame Carly for getting mauled at age seven and set up for a lifetime of abuse and a desperate search for connection with men who probably are very much like her offenders.
WOMEN are the sisters, mothers, daughters of men . If the ammount of sexual abuse and battery is just like wallpaper to you, then wake up and get educated and stand up for women.
Sea Storm
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I stand corrected; there is collective guilt....for men.
I gather there isn't collective guilt for women. Either that or no women do anything wrong.
I also appreciate learning that it is impolite to point out that marrying a man you know to be a heroin addict might not be utilizing the best judgment. I hope you don't mind if I continue to urge my daughter and other young ladies I care about not to be so inclined should they meet one.
I have looked in vain for my blaming Carly Simon for being molested at seven, as I have pretty much any of the stuff you seem to be accusing me of.
I am not shamed by the misdeeds of other men any more than innocent women should be shamed by the misdeeds of women who mistreat people or commit crimes.
I do however wonder at the assumption I don't "stand up for women" because I refuse to accept the guilt of someone elses crimes.
Nor is rape a "norm" in the culture I live in. It is a terrible crime that in a better world would result in the severe punishment of every single person who perpetrates it. The statistics are debatable, but it is without doubt most get away with it. I don't know how to change that, but blaming the guys who would just as soon castrate and/or hang by the neck until dead rapists is, I'm pretty sure, not the way.
You don't think millions of men haven't experienced girlfriends who get stoned, drink, cheat or watch porn? Are men solely responsible for that "cultural norm", when women do it too?
I don't have any "buddies" who treat women disrespectfully. If they do they're not my buddy. Am I supposed to go further and somehow change jerks into gents with my mind rays?
You don't know what I've been through or what the women I love as mates, daughters, relatives or friends have been through or what I've done for them, but of course that's the great thing about collective guilt. With a blanket condemnation you can just make false assumptions and smear someone with baseless accusations and put words in their mouth regardless of the facts or their actions or beliefs.
Starting to remember part of the reason why I quit posting here.
mud
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Hmmmm I will try to restrain myself and not start sounding like stampeding horses through the pleasant meadow of the denial that males live in in our culture.
Why should a man take responsibility for the bad behaviour of a drug addicted king baby jerk? this is a good question. Even voicing it means there is some sort of start. i think the point is that Carly Simon has a snowballs chance in hell of being heard by men but women will feel heard, acknowledged and proud of her for coming out of the cloak of shame and silence she lived in.
If it could happen to someone rich, gifted, beautiful and famous, then it is probably happening a lot.
I think that men need to take some responsibility for the snide comments they hear about women, they need to stop sniggering and treating women like fuck puppets. THey need to stop expecting women to be their nurses and purses and for working full time and taking care of kids and housekeeping. Are you KIDDDDIng me?
Have you taken a glance at the statistics for rape????? Good grief. One in four girls will be sexually assaulted by the time they are 18. Of every 1000 rape cases that go through court
5 percent are found guilty. i guess that is why women don't report. It is an undereported crime. Because men don't get it. It is a cultural norm to rape women. Obviously, the victims are not being heard so it is pretty much time for MEN to step up and telll their good buddies to treat women with respect. But that does not happen. They let ole Fred get away with disparaging women and seeing them as disposable sex objects and just laugh it off. Wouldn['t want to cause a trouble over such a thing.
So Carly deserved what she got. I see your point. I just think that she got what most women get. Who the hell doesn't have a boyfriend who gets stoned or drinks or cheats or watches port. It is a cultural norm. So i am not going to blame Carly for getting mauled at age seven and set up for a lifetime of abuse and a desperate search for connection with men who probably are very much like her offenders.
WOMEN are the sisters, mothers, daughters of men . If the ammount of sexual abuse and battery is just like wallpaper to you, then wake up and get educated and stand up for women.
Sea Storm
Sea, I'm sorry to say this, but the reason my step father is one of those people who has got away with rape and sexual abuse is because of the number of women who have protected him over the years - my mother, my aunties, the social workers, the police officers, all women who have lied about me to protect this man and keep him out of the reach of the law. When I reported him to the police the male officer who came out to my house was lovely - polite, kind, professional, empathetic and a really decent human being. The two female officers who escorted me to the 'rape' suite to take my statement - apparently because they're specially trained to deal with victims of sex crimes - were vile - unprofessional, discourteous and as I sat wiping away the tears after talking on camera about him told me to my face they weren't going to bother going after him because there wasn't any evidence and then proceeded to report me to social services claiming I was mentally ill and that my disabled son wasn't really disabled. I don't think it's fair to lump an entire gender together and declare them all to be one thing or another. Women have done far more damage to me than men over the years. When I had a breakdown years ago and was struggling to cope with my young son and my own health, it was a male friend who moved in and looked after me, held me when I cried, took my boy out to the park. None of my female friends wanted to know. There's good and bad everywhere, on both sides. I didn't see anything in Mud's post that showed any kind of agreement with the abusive actions of some people, nor have I in any post he's ever written. Everyone here is here because they've been damaged in some way; ironically I think most of us are on here because of the abuse we've experienced at the hands of women we loved. I grew up in a home with domestic violence going on and if I ever mention it people always assume it was my dad hitting my mum but it wasn't, she abused him, not the other way around. I try very hard to see the good in people now, and to avoid those who don't but I know I can't assume I'm safe with someone because of their gender x
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You don't have to be sorry for telling your story and I am so sorry that you were not heard and it was mainly women who dismissed and minimized what happened to you. Women can be offenders that is for sure. Statistically, and from my experience dealing with dozens of cases, it is men who offend more often. Anyone who offends against anyone needs their head examined. It is wrong.
Women are downtrodden in our society. That is true. Men are downtrodden sometimes too. Basically, our society is fractured, unfair and pretty awful. When I see something unjust i am going to speak. If you don't like it ok. you are entitled to your opinion. If this makes you mad. I am not responsible for that. One can always just discuss things. I feel myself apologizing because anger is so destructive. If you haven't noticed the disparity between the sexes then so be it.
Sea
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You don't have to be sorry for telling your story and I am so sorry that you were not heard and it was mainly women who dismissed and minimized what happened to you. Women can be offenders that is for sure. Statistically, and from my experience dealing with dozens of cases, it is men who offend more often. Anyone who offends against anyone needs their head examined. It is wrong.
Women are downtrodden in our society. That is true. Men are downtrodden sometimes too. Basically, our society is fractured, unfair and pretty awful. When I see something unjust i am going to speak. If you don't like it ok. you are entitled to your opinion. If this makes you mad. I am not responsible for that. One can always just discuss things. I feel myself apologizing because anger is so destructive. If you haven't noticed the disparity between the sexes then so be it.
Sea
Didn't make me mad or angry, Sea, and I haven't failed to notice the disparity between the sexes, nor do I think that our society is anything other than fractured, unfair and pretty awful, I just don't agree that 'all' men are responsible for the problems or that loving, caring, compassionate men should be lumped in with abusers and rapists.
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All men are not evil. Of course they aren't. I just wish that men would collectively stand up for women and abused children. I wish that men would speak up when they see another man behaving badly to a woman or to a child. If this is man bashing ... well it is not meant to be.
There is an epidemic of assaults on women and children. All over the world. If this is man bashing.... there are good men of course.
why is this such a touchy subject? what's it to you? It is one of those subjects that gets hidden under a rock. People would rather help dogs and cats than abused and neglected children.
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I understand Sea's straightforward fed-up anger, Mud's offended defensiveness, and Tupp's reminders of the broader view, I am pretty sure...
But as an editor-type I'd like to point out that the "you should feel ashamed if you're a man" is PURE what is called in the industry--click bait. A really repulsive trend in online journalism
where the most divisive, pot-stirring, resentment-rousing kinds of phrases are intentionally used in headlines to get emotional reactions that will draw readers in to: 1) read the article, 2) feel or opine something, and 3) NOTICE THE ADS that pay for the publication.
It's pretty repulsive and it's part of the toxic stew the culture and discourse and politics have become. Where disagreements or differences in perspective become instantly personalized and binary and so we either: 1) leave in a huff or 2) can no longer see a person behind either the blinders or the bifocals, as the case may be.
love
Hops
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I found the 'click bait' idea that I should be ashamed as a man because other men mistreated Carly Simon far preferable to being told I am actually partially responsible for child molestations and rapes.
Considering the large number of people here whose story is of cruel and horrible mothers abusing their own innocent kids while relatives and friends of both sexes stood by doing nothing I would have thought this was one place where this kind of gender stereotyping and collective shaming would not occur.
There is evil in every person's heart. There always has been and there always will be and every society and culture in history has been 'fractured' by it and I suspect every one far into the future will be too.
And throughout history, regardless of how supportive or dismissive of either the perpetrators or the victims of evil a time and place might be, it always has and always will come down to whether each one of us individually will suppress that evil and do good to his fellow man or allow it free rein. Unless one is so clinically insane they do not know right from wrong, which is exceedingly rare, the individual choice is where responsibility and guilt starts and ends.
If the family that hid Anne Frank could do so under those circumstances then it's hard for me to have any sympathy toward the idea some guy who doesn't knock the teeth out of every jerk who tells a dirty joke is therefore responsible when the jokester mistreats a woman. To try and place some of the responsibility on others necessarily reduces the responsibility of the abuser and actually makes it easier for them to rationalize choosing evil; "my daddy hit my mama so what am I 'upposed to do? Poor little me din't know no better." Sure he did. He chose to hit his wife knowing it was wrong but he wanted to.
Neither man nor woman has a solution for that kind of moral depravity.
If anyone did it would have disappeared long ago.
mud
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I hear you, Mud. Click bait just offends me immensely as a writer. Corruption of communication trickles through everything, even relationships.
I think I'm kind of in-between on the issue of collective vs individual responsibility. I agree with you that each person is responsible in the most
direct sense for their own behavior and not for anyone else's. In a kind of legalistic way, all our hands are clean if we're not directly participating
in abuse, or belittlement or blaming of victims, or minimization of harm. But I think hyper-individualism can morph into one way to justify not truly
imagining the weight another walks under.
I also believe I share in a collective moral responsibility that I choose to accept or at least recognize. I don't always manage to do it, or do it consistently.
But my own concept of morality does include speaking up as often as I can when I hear or witness injustice. Sometimes, though, I'm too tired. Too depressed
by how ubiquitous it all is. Too overwhelmed by 65 years of wishing the world/systems/assumptions weren't sexist or racist in such massive part, for example,
despite notable and wonderful and I hope growing exceptions.
Or I feel hamstrung by an imbalance of power (do I challenge my boss every time he manipulates or exploits people or says sexist things, when I know he'll harm
me intentionally as a result?). No, I don't. But so much bullying and devaluing happens out of sight, in the dark...it's easier on us to not face it the way someone
on the front lines of the devastating damage does.
I'm too cowardly to speak always, act always, defend those who deserve defending always, guide or try to correct the nastiness of others always. I've got enough of
my own nastiness to focus on.
But I do believe in collective moral responsibility. I think the combination of empathy plus courage is what brave people need to create change. One without the
other doesn't do much good.
love to you,
Hops
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1. Attempting to impose responsibility on others, which after all is what asserting there is a collective responsibility amounts to, presupposes we know what others should be responsible for or needs fixing. Do I have the right to impose a moral responsibility on someone who disagrees with my version of morality? If people consider different problems from different moral perspectives, as they most certainly do, how does it become collective and who gets to decide who is responsible for what?
In the case of rape or child molestation or other just plain repulsive behavior as Carly Simon detailed, admittedly there isn't exactly a legitimate "pro" side, but there is for any number of other issues primarily seen as moral ones. And even if we posit that this person should be doing something, who gets to decide what that person should be doing?
2. Assuming we do have a moral responsibility to speak up in defense of those we believe are victimized or oppressed why is that any more a collective responsibility than not victimizing or oppressing in the first place? By all means, if people want to voluntarily band together to collectively feel or enact some responsibility then they should do so. But where does shaming or involuntarily enlisting into the group someone else who may already be doing far more individually or may not share that moral viewpoint come into it?
3. How, especially over the internet but also in our everyday lives, do we presuppose what someone else has done or not done in some area we wish them to engage?
If we don't know what someone believes or has done we haven't the slightest business telling them they haven't done enough or are part of the problem. For all we know we're lecturing someone who has done ten times more than we ever have or ever will.
4. Most of the issues discussed have as part of their evil, the theft of the other person's free will or choice. I believe trying to deprive third parties of their free will by asserting they must act because they are already partially guilty is a method that makes things worse not better.
5. Many people's moral viewpoints change over time. What kind of morality is it to try and force people into some collective guilt or responsibility and action one minute and then when we've changed our mind turn around and try and compel them to do the opposite?
Taking someone's freedom to act or not act by compulsion, either through the law or societal pressure, is no way to set other people free.
If anyone disagrees with that, they are perfectly free to; I will neither try to compel or shame them into supporting my view despite how destructive I may feel their perspective is. They have a conscience and a brain and will act as they see fit. My responsibility is to see that I follow my principles, not to compel my neighbor to follow them. The road to hell is paved by the good intentions of people deciding they have the right to decide for others what they should do or think.
mud
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I dunno if it's Libertarian or Ayn Rand or if I'm way off the mark in the sources of your reasoning, Mud. Are
they pretty big influences for you?
I'm not great at tit-for-tat argument (not in the "fight" sense but in the debate sense), but I do disagree with
the drift.
Regarding fear of being forced to obey or conform or not have the individual's right as primary imperative
in all circumstances... That's not what I was talking about. Who's got the most power or might impose some
if I'm not hypervigilant.
For me, it's more about a voluntary spiritual recognition of obligation to the vulnerable, to the other. Triggered
by cultivating empathy instead of walling it out. What I mean is that rather than, for example, model charity because
it's a religious rule, I'd like to model charity because my heart is moved to. In that sense, the training stuck. But
I only listened to the good parts. WWJD.
That's what I took away from my childhood religion. It wasn't about fences between individuals and
the world but about welcoming the messy, complicated world in...and holding it close.
With a whole lot of compassion and renewing forgiveness. Necessary (for me).
Also too, I need to remember not to take everything personally. I often flunk.
Hops
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For me, it's more about a voluntary spiritual recognition of obligation to the vulnerable, to the other.
That's not collective guilt, responsibility or anything else.
It's exactly what I've been saying.
mud
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Yebbut.
I DO believe there is such a thing as collective responsibility.
I also think that's different from an individual being forced to feel guilt. (You feel what you feel. Or not.)
I just wish that men would collectively stand up for women and abused children. I wish that men would speak up when they see another man behaving badly to a woman or to a child. If this is man bashing ... well it is not meant to be.
If this happened, routinely, the world would be different. I disagree that cultivating a collective sense of responsibility in our culture would in any way absolve an individual from full responsibility for her/his actions.
Evil flourishes when the good do nothing.
So, if it's uncomfortable that a "class" of those who are (more often) abused asked those who (more often) have more power in the culture to step up to speak out and to protect them (even when as sterling individuals they feel they have no connection to others' bad behavior)...gosh. It's uncomfortable.
Freedom means my freedom to swing ends where your nose begins (sic). But freedom doesn't include freedom from feeling emotionally uncomfortable. Being asked to change is uncomfortable. It's any individual's choice whether or not to not hear others' pleas for help. Or to risk discomfort to advocate for the more vulnerable. Of course. But morally, whether or not they're off the hook is another question.
Personally, I run hard to avoid being judged or feeling guilty. But it sometimes catches up with me anyway. And that's fine if it inspires positive change. If it just makes me angry, that doesn't help anyone.
https://xyfeminist.wordpress.com/the-male-privilege-list/ (https://xyfeminist.wordpress.com/the-male-privilege-list/)
love
Hops
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This is kind of off topic, but maybe not entirely.
The covenant group I lead hosted dinner last night for 40 homeless men (we do it annually for two weeks, in tandem with other churches of different faiths, including the Islamic society--some years we host women but in the cold season there are more men on the street). As it always does, it broke my heart again (I figure one's heart needs regular re-breaking). The ones I was sitting with were kind, polite, and so broken. No dental care, some obvious mental illness, others just pale, weary. Broken by the world, by bad luck, by choices, by horrible upbringings, by addictions. My heart breaks for them every time and taking their hands and eating together and just listening is all I know how to do directly.
One young veteran put his head on the table and was just helpless. The other men were like father birds. They put arms around him, helped us serve him, were so protective.
I think although it may not always show on the outside, like these men, many women feel nearly homeless in our world, because of what systemic--make that global--sexism actually does in their lives. It starts young and just pounds at you from the culture year after year. (As it also does its harm to boys, pounding away at them year after year, training them to dominate while offering their bodies up as sacrifices.)
We're all the same in that we need each other. We need protective arms and raised voices and empathy and a willingness to imagine the other more than judge the other.
It's really hard. I had a bad brother and a cold mother but a kind father. I was very lucky in my father.
Just rambling...
Hops
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Fight like a butterfly.... that is what you do, Hops. So well said and not attacking. This is apparently a very hot topic. Has the concept of paternalism and sexism not swept past some people or held them down in boulderbooted submission. Well, happy days for them.
I don't think anger is the answer for anything and I hold back my lower nature when possible. I try to study Buddhism and breathe into the sorrow and anger and disappointment. I see the men who are broken too. They are like all men and kind of beautiful in their humility and kindness. Not barbarians but brothers. Whether we are our brothers keepers has been debated for centuries. I take care of my side of the street and what you do on yours is your business until I see a vulnerable person unjustly hurt and then I become involved and present. If our brother is behaving badly a word or a nod is a good idea. Takes enormous courage and will not win me any popularity contests.
Cripes, I seem to have offended Mud greatly. Stirred it up. Not sorry. One can only hope for the blossom to follow.
Sea storm
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Ahhh, Mud is my friend. And a good man.
I only wish him butterflies.
(And now I won't talk about Mud in the third person any more...)
love
Hops
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The thing I object to is what seems to me poor reasoning or thoughts that are not actually thought through.
It is one thing to say we each have a moral responsibility to speak up for right and to defend the defenseless.
It is quite another to assume that simply by virtue of belonging to a particular group I am partially responsible for the misbehavior of others in that group. If I am partially responsible then the only logical inference is I am partially the cause; I am partly guilty of the crimes. It was stated that if I am not sufficiently vociferous in condemning certain behavior then I am partly responsible for other more foul behavior by that guy. The obvious implication (in fact it was fairly explicit, not implicit) is I am likewise partly to blame for child molestations and rapes.
Doesn't seem like it would take Sherlock Holmes to figure out why that is offensive.
That's the kind of logic which got innocent black men lynched when some white woman was raped; they all do it, they all look alike, they all think alike. How is it any different than the guilt by association and stereotyping Jews have experienced for centuries? All Jews are dirty money grubbers and if there are ones who aren't, they're guilty for not straightening out the money grubbers.
Now, men do lots more bad things than women, but plenty of women do plenty of bad things. Are all women responsible for the women who molest kids or rob banks or murder 14 people in cold blood?
The worst thing about collective guilt is it necessarily relieves the prime movers of some of the blame, and what could be better for an abuser than to be able to play the victim and rationalize their actions? My mommy made me do it. My daddy made me do it. The devil made me do it. Society made me. Other men weren't supportive enough so I just had to bury the bodies in the crawlspace.
That entire line of thought is not a blossom to bloom it's destructive blame shifting and enabling bs.
It's perfectly captured in Only a Lad by Oingo Boingo. Look up the lyrics and you'll see the wages of collective guilt.
mud
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Hmmm. Thanks, Mud. I'm getting a little clearer and also bumping into the limitations (and gifts) of language.
I think what I me myself mean by "collective responsibility" is NOT in a legal sense, or that I as a part of a group must be held accountable by external forces or opinions for individuals' behavior.
What I mean, in this instance, by "responsibility" is the kind of "it takes a village" view of the world. It's a belief, not a law with force attached. Because I have freedom of belief and freedom of opinion and thought.
I believe I have a moral responsibility to the vulnerable (which I do and do not act bravely about). I have absolutely ZERO power to require/force/insist/demand that another person AGREE WITH or SHARE my belief about group moral responsibility. I don't even imagine I can.
But I do have that belief. Germans really have struggled with that one. But they've done so so much to change their culture after walking into the consequences of their collective moral irresponsibility (imo).
I believe that as human beings we have a collective responsibility TO and FOR each other. Nobody can impose collective human guilt. But I'm not talking about guilt. Or judgement. I'm just saying I believe as a species we have a moral responsibility as a species to and for each other (and to animals and the earth). But I'm totally aware that beliefs vary.
I am soooooooooooo offended by sexism and various assumptions about many things. But over the years I've come to be a lot less frequently offended. I think because, for me, choosing to take offense is choosing to stay on the surface of an interaction. Whereas if I go, damn, that offends me...etc etc and then STILL try to return myself to imagining the other's experience...I wind up feeling more connected to the "offender" (or at least creating more space for the possibility of connection) than if I stick to my feeling offended.
When I do stick to it, I observe in myself that I perceive a big and persistent wall between myself and the "offender." Whereas if I let my initial offended response happen as is natural but then allow it to move on through me and not get stuck as a do-or-die I gotta-win, I gotta-be-right position.... then I create space to compassionately (when I can) try again to imagine the other's own experience (which often turns out to be very helpful in showing me how and why they came to believe the thing they believe). When I can do that compassionately, then I don't gotta stay mad.
love
Hops
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I have yet to see a village I want raising my kid.
mud
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That entire line of thought is not a blossom to bloom it's destructive blame shifting and enabling bs.
Brilliant Mud! A voice of logic & reason.
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A voice of logic & reason.
Of course. I'm a man. :P