Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dr. Richard Grossman on April 02, 2016, 12:42:41 PM
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Somehow, New England Psychologist found me in my usual hiding place and asked to do a Q & A on narcissism and its effects on others. Here’s the interview just published in the April 2016 edition:
"Families of narcissists suffer most, psychologist says"
By Catherine Robertson Souter New England Psychologist April 1, 2016
http://www.nepsy.com/articles/leading-stories/families-of-narcissists-suffer-most-psychologist-says/
All comments are welcome!
Richard
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Good for you, Doc G!
So glad you're spreading the word.
Kudos,
Hops
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Doc G:
For some reason reading your interview made my teeth hurt. N/pd relationships are so hopeless.
I noticed your new pic..... it surprises me every time I open the site and there you are.... beardless. Looks good: )
Lighter
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Thanks Hops and Lighter! I’m so glad you appreciated the interview—but I’m sorry your teeth hurt, Lighter! It’s amazing—and horrifying—that this topic (narcissism) we have been facing/battling/discussing for 15 years has now come to the fore…
Richard
P.S. Re: the new photo after many years. Thanks, Lighter. I never have photos taken of me, so when New England Psychologist asked for a photo (luckily they didn’t use it!), I took my very first “selfie.” I couldn’t help but smirk given the topic of the interview—and I wrote along with the photo file I sent “Wow, a selfie! I’m going to take lots more!” Anyway, a dear friend told Hildy (my wife) the new photo (which I also used for this web site) was “horrid.” Hildy agrees and is insisting upon taking another (maybe while I’m asleep). What is most interesting to me about this topic is that my mother, Mitzi, felt exactly the same way about photos. She (a very bright, multi-talented, and attractive woman) cut her own hair, rarely wore any makeup, and spent almost nothing on clothes. Sometimes when I came home to visit, she would be wearing one of my or my brother’s old flannel shirts. Other things, e.g. her poetry, music (piano and singing), fiction writing, and matters of non-personal aesthetics—not to mention her passionate political causes--were far more important. It is so interesting how, as we get older, we see more clearly aspects of our parents in ourselves (although my passions lie not so much in art/aesthetics, but my relationships/attachments to family, patients, friends, and of course, dogs.) Like the truism re: real estate prices: “Location, location, location,” concerning these passed along personality traits, I always think: “Genetics, genetics, genetics.”
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Thanks for the article Dr G! Very interesting. Ive been more of a believer of severe neglect, abandonment or trauma as the cause of Narcisssism, but have to defer to your experience.
Here is an interesting tid-bit about trauma and my family history can be found here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Darmstadt_in_World_War_II
Sept 11th has different meaning for my family although it is rarely talked about. Sept 11th is my Aunt's (my Mothers' older sister) birthday. In 1944, they left their home and went out to dinner. When they returned, or tried to return, the neighborhood had been bombed and was demolished. All their possessions, clothes, furniture, china, photographs etc were burned by fire. They spent the night in a local church and the next morning went to take a train to Southern Germany to live on a relatives farm. My mother was the middle of 5 kids and she was 7 years old when this happened. It is rarely ever talked about.
Ive often thought my Mother never really dealt with these issues, a survival instinct kicked in, which is the fear and shame based operating system she mostly has. To this day, she has trouble remodeling and changing things and cannot throw away things that no longer have any use. She has lived in the same house since 1974 which is a cluttered and dysfunctional mess now.
Anyway, this is where I think her problems come from, an uncertain and cruel world that her Mother had no way of helping her understand.
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Hey, Doc G--
Suggestion for photo.
Sit in an armchair by a window.
Relax.
Get in a reflective mood (maybe read some poems).
When the camera is there, look at it --slightly from the side-- as a friend.
A human window.
Because, actually, it is. You're just "meeting" people through that window.
It's not a devil that wants to judge your vanity or humility or steal your soul.
Makes a big difference.
Have fun,
Hops
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Interesting to read what you said about that hospital you worked in, Dr G. My son has a lot of health problems so we've had a lot of dealings with various professionals in health and social care over the years and I have found so many put their own needs before the needs of the patient. It has led to a lot of problems as obviously I expect them to put my son first and I've found a lot of them don't like to be questioned, challenged or corrected and then label me as 'difficult' when I ask them to focus on him and what's in his best interests. I've just had to ask for a letter to be corrected as there were a lot of errors about my son's diagnosis and abilities in it and, interestingly, the doctor was happy to change the mistakes that were someone else's (ie, that had come from another letter from another doctor and had been copied and pasted into her own) but she refused to change the mistakes that were hers and hers alone.
It's good to see things being talked about more openly and frequently. Donald Trump scares the bejesus out of me :)
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I am moved by this interview, moved and surprised. The opening story takes me aback. It is a whole story, encapsulated in a brief sentence. The surprise is your view on the genetic component. That makes sense to me in part - that the genetics provides the predisposition and the early childhood neglect or abuse shapes the content. You didn't say that but it is how I make sense of the genetic argument.
You are one of the few I have discovered in these years who seems to understand that the families do suffer and suffer mightily. And that understanding is a great salve in a mammoth desert of understanding, empathy in this 21st century of stunningly judgementalism.
You write that they (the journal) found yOu. Thank goodness they did. More need to find you. Your voice gives voice to those who lost theirs. Keep talking and writing and sharing.
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Thank you for the “reads” and the replies!
Ales2: I read the Wikipedia entry that you provided the link for. A true horror story—I’m so sorry your mother had to go through this. If your mother does have NPD, the question here is whether it was trauma that shaped her personality, or whether the genetic “predisposition” (as Gaining Strength proposes in another post on this thread) for NPD was already there. I have written about two Auschwitz survivors I grew up with (see, for example, http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php/topic,10394.msg172937/topicseen.html#msg172937), both were/are lovely people and neither had a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. But I do believe that trauma of this nature will certainly put solidly into place all of the “defenses” we have predispositions for. And it takes a lot of therapy with the right kind of therapist (I have strong feelings about this!) to undo these “defenses.”
Hops: Thank you for the suggestions—and the new way of looking at this harmless process! At some point I’ll give it a try and have Hildy snap a few photos. BTW, can I hire you as my therapist? (Kill two birds with one stone!)
Tupp: I’m sorry you and your son have had to deal with narcissistic behavior from health care and social service professionals. As I have written on this Board, I have not only had to deal with this behavior from colleagues, but also as a patient ( http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php/topic,10329.0.html). Unfortunately narcissism is rife in high prestige professions (medical, academia, politics, etc.) But it is particularly painful when you go to someone (e.g. doctors) looking for care and find the person has no empathy, and their main purpose/goal in life is to keep their “self” inflated.
G.S.: Thank you so much, and I’m glad you came back! Yes, the first paragraph/question of the article is very important, and I’m very happy they included it in the article. It deserves to be told and noted.
I think you’re right: Most often genes (at least in the mental health area) create predispositions of varying degrees rather than 100% assurance of expression. If we look at the statistics on major depression for example:
“If one identical twin in a pair becomes depressed, the other twin will develop depression around 70-80% of the time. This is true whether or not they were both raised in the same household.”
From "Is depression a genetic issue?"
Stanford at the Tech Museum Understanding Genetics December 1, 2010
http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask387
So, genes in the mental health area are not deterministic—otherwise (in this case) there would be a 100% correlation. Clearly, we’re dealing with probabilities and multiple factors. But the assumption used to be that if children were brought up the “right” way with loving parents, it was assumed they would turn out to be psychologically healthy. Therefore, it was always the parents’ fault if the children/adult children had psychological problems. As suggested by the above study on major depression and genetics, this turns out not to be true. Furthermore, personality variables (as shown by the Minnesota Family Twin Studies) have a significant genetic base—50% is the general figure often quoted (with the other 50% divided up into many other factors, only one of which is parenting.) I have seen normal, loving parents bring up adopted children who turned out quite disturbed (personality wise). When the adoptive parents looked into the history of the biological parents, it turns out they were drug abusers, in prison, etc. The guilt these adoptive parents felt (thinking they had done something wrong) was huge because they were caring, loving people. There is so much more to be said (and studied!) on this general topic, but I'll stop here…
Again, thank you all for your comments!
Richard
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Dr. G,
Thank you again for all your posts and responses here. We are so lucky to have you and to have found this place. It has been a source of comfort and strength that I appreciate very much!
All the best to you and my friends here at the Board!
~Alesia
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Yes you can, Doc G!
:D
Hops
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Reading it. Somehow after being on this board I entirely missed the possibility that Narcissism is genetic. I thought it had more to do with emotional experiences.
LOL Narcissist rule the gene pool wow. How exhausting.
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Ales2: I have been equally lucky to “meet” people like you on this Board who have so bravely told their stories and shared their vulnerable selves. I feel much less alone as a result…
Hops: Great! Re: photos and having one's picture taken, perhaps we can begin our first session by my discussing the facts that my sister was a Playboy Bunny, my brother appeared/appears in commercials, and I have devoted my whole life to understanding and being part of people’s inner worlds…
Garbanzo: For decades everyone “missed the possibility.” I owe gratitude to Steve Pinker who introduced me to the scientific evidence in How the Mind Works in the mid 1990’s. The latest book that I have read regarding personality and genetics is Nancy Segal’s book, Born Together—Reared Apart The Landmark Minnesota Twin Study. The topic of genetics is fascinating, and it forced me to rethink my whole profession after I started looking at the data/evidence 20 years ago.
Richard
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Hi Teartracks,
Would you give us the name of Strand's poem so that we can look it up?
Thanks!
Richard
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Hey, Doc G--
Suggestion for photo.
Sit in an armchair by a window.
Relax.
Get in a reflective mood (maybe read some poems).
When the camera is there, look at it --slightly from the side-- as a friend.
Oh brother.
How's about a pipe and smoking jacket too? Maybe they'd let him introduce Masterpiece Theater [Is that still a thing?]
Wait, I know. Regrow the beard. I think they're looking for a new Most Interesting Man in the World. Can you slam a revolving door and bowl overhand, doc?
Just messin with ya guys but Hops's description sounded like Sam the Eagle's TV set. :)
mud
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Hi Teartracks and Mud,
Thanks for your comments. If I may give a “personal” response to your posts together…
Here’s the first stanza of Mark Strand’s poem, Keeping Things Whole, Teartracks refers to:
"In a field
I am the absence
of field.
This is
always the case.
Wherever I am
I am what is missing."
And a quote from Mud’s post:
“I think they're looking for a new Most Interesting Man in the World. Can you slam a revolving door and bowl overhand, doc?”
When I take Beau, my beloved 11-year-old Golden Retriever, to beautiful Lars Anderson Park in South Brookline with its acres of grassy fields, often during our walk I will stop and visually pick out a blade of grass and make a mental note of its surroundings. And I say to myself: “There I am in the world.” When we come back to that location either on the same walk or a couple days later, I look to see if I can find it—knowing full well that I can’t. And then I will pick out another blade of grass for our next visit. So, while I feel much closer to Mark Stand’s (and by extension, Teartrack’s) metaphor then to Mud’s, I do know I’m there somewhere (and not interfering with nature) even if I know I'm an infinitesimally small (and time-limited) part of the field.
By the way, Anderson, the wealthy U.S. Ambassador to Japan (1912-1913), had a large ornate mansion at the estate that his family left to the town. At some point, the mansion became too expensive for the town to maintain, so it was torn down and replaced, in part, with another grassy field—a telling detail on the same theme, perhaps…
Richard
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I'm pretty sure publishing the whole poem for purposes of discussion would be labeled "fair use" so here it is. If Doc G thinks otherwise he can always delete my post;
In a field
I am the absence
of field.
This is
always the case.
Wherever I am
I am what is missing.
When I walk
I part the air
and always
the air moves in
to fill the spaces
where my body's been.
We all have reasons
for moving.
I move
to keep things whole.
Not being all that bright my question is, what's it all about Alfie?
Is this a variation on the Stranger In a Strange Land theme: a feeling of alienation from the rest of the field which we perceive to be the rest of the human race, all similar to each other but different and separate from us?
Or is he saying that every human, in our individual absences of fieldiness and in our separateness, make up the field?
The second stanza seems to reinforce the SIASL gag.
In a field I am usually capable of feeling simultaneously to be the absence of field and part of the field.
Each blade of grass is a separate and distinct blade but they all sprout off the same underground rhizome.
I don't know what that means either, and I'm the one who said it.
mud
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The Strand poem and the story of the Anderson mansion point to the ephemeral. I find the evocation beautiful but jarring.
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Well, on the bright side, at least he prolly won't be suing for copyright infringement.
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BTW, the reason I jokingly suggested to Hops a “therapy” topic re: my sister, brother, and myself, is that siblings can be so different—and for decades therapists explained these differences using a parenting model, e.g. which child/children in the family received optimal parenting and which child/children received sub-optimal parenting. In the “blank slate” era, genetic differences were never considered. There are certain ways that my sister, brother, and myself are similar, and significant ways (I suggest one in the earlier post) that we are very different. Through life experience, both personal (e.g. raising three step-children and my own biological child, not to mention my own failed personal therapies) and professional (decades of doing therapy) I learned that the biggest factor in explaining these differences was genetics. As a result, my methods and goals of therapy by necessity changed radically, in essence away from “insight,” “advice,” "exploring projection and the unconscious,” etc., etc., and towards developing a unique relationship which would provide new experience for my patients that would, over time, (in technical terms) re-wire parts of the brain.
Richard
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Hi tt,
Thanks—your post means a lot to me. I know your participation on the Board has been invaluable to many as well—and has immeasurably helped others find their missing “me.” In this way, we have all been "therapists" for each other, which was/is my greatest hope for the Board.
Keep kickin’!
Richard