Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: longtire on December 03, 2004, 06:16:57 PM
-
I discovered this site recently and have learned a lot by reading the posts. I am having a really hard time figuring out how to take care of myself in a healthy way right now and would appreciate any and all feedback from you. Mainly though, I would just like to not feel so alone with all of this. I've tried to condense things as much as possible, but this is still very long. I could probably fill an entire encyclopedia set with the details.
I have been married for almost 17 years to a woman (I'll call her “S”) and have been miserable from the beginning of the marriage. We both grew up in the same small midwestern town and were high-school “sweethearts.” S picked me out at a party and had a friend check the next day to see if I was interested. I basically said “Who?” since I hadn't really noticed her, but decided to give it a shot. The attraction was very strong between us right from the first date. We spent the next 5 nights going out together until her parents put a 2 date a week limit on things.
I was very happy to find someone who felt like my soulmate. I wasn't really looking for it at the time. I just wanted to have fun and take a date to all of the school dances. I was hooked right away by S's outgoing nature, since I am introverted by nature. You couldn't tell now! She loved to talk about all sorts of things including deeper issues and we seemed to agree well on most issues. She was usually the most outgoing person in the room, though never part of the popular crowd. After dating for several years, I asked her to marry me after I would graduate from university and we got engaged. We did some of those marriage couseling questionaires to make sure you knew the other person well before getting married and we agreed on almost every question. We congratulated ourselves on how compatible we were and how much we knew about each other. She was probably at my parents house more than at her parents and regularly ate dinner with my family.
There were signs that all was not well, but I was blinded by love and didn't appreciate them at the time. When I would tease S or when she would get angry she would give me the silent treatment. She would refuse to look at me and refused to say anything. I would be the one to break the silence by badgering her to start talking again. After a couple of years of this, it happened once while I was driving her home. I pulled the car over and told her that I thought her behavior was very childish and that I didn't want to continue seeing her if she was not willing to discuss problems with me like an adult. She said that she wanted to continue seeing me and the silent treatment went away for a while. Also, she had a little saying that went “What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine!” We used to laugh about that while dating. Unfortunately, she meant it a lot more than I ever imagined. These were really the only times we fought and everyone remarked on how well we got along, without the usual highschool drama. I do remember one prophetic comment an older person made that we were in for a lot of problems later if we never fought, and learned to fight, early on.
During this time S was still living at home with her parents after high-school. Her parents provided everything for her, her Car, insurance, meals, laundry, shopping, cooking, etc without requiring any rent and only an occasional chore from her. I told her I thought it would be a good idea for her to move out on her own for a bit before we got married so she could get used to being independent and doing things for herself. She said it sounded like a good idea, but couldn't disappoint her mother, who needed her. S was working full time at a local retail store and payed for her own gasoline, credit card, etc.
S made a quick stab at the local community college, but dropped out in less than a semester. She didn't discuss it with me beforehand but informed me afterwards because she thought she would disappoint me by dropping out. I felt disappointed that she didn't discuss it with me beforehand and seek my support with her decision, but I respected her decision that college was “too hard” for her right then.
One weekend she stayed with me at university. We fooled around and she got pregnant. We were already planning to get married, so from that standpoint there was no problem. Neither one of us wanted an abortion as we both loved this child as soon as we found out. We had a small whirlwind wedding with family and close friends just a few weeks later. Before the wedding, S came to me and told me she had quit her job. I was again hurt that she had made a major decision without even hinting to me that she was going to do that or discussing it with me. During the wedding planning, S disagreed with the dress her mother had picked out for her and insisted on getting the one she liked. Her mother called her “reckless” and said she didn't know her daughter anymore and emotionally withdrew from S for several years. Her mother was very unhappy that S moved to university with me.
She came to live with me in my apartment at university with my two other roommates, since I wasn't able to get out of the lease and couldn't afford to pay two rents. We had one bedroom and they shared the other. There was only one bathroom. Not a good situation at all, but we moved to a private apartment after a few months, as soon as the lease ran out.
The first day she came to live with me, I came back from classes and S was sitting curled up on the sofa staring at the television. I could tell something was wrong by her body language and how she would not look at me. I asked what was wrong and she said “Nothing.” I put my hand on her shoulder to comfort her and she shrugged it off and said “I don't want to be touched right now.” I asked again what was wrong and she replied very angrily “There's nothing wrong, I don't want to talk about it!” The whole time she would not look at me. I told her that I would be there for her and I was sure this was difficult for her. I told her that I loved her and wanted to do anything I could to help her. I told her that I would be the strong one and support her and that when she was ready to talk or needed a hug to just let me know and that I would give her the space she needed in the meantime. After all, she had gone from being the pampered baby of her parents to wife, mother, independent adult, and roommate of people she didn't get to choose in just a few short weeks. That would be enough to freak anyone out! To make a long story short, though, she didn't come back to ask me to talk with her or comfort her physically with a hug or holding hands. Not over the course of the next 16 years.
At first when she moved in, she wanted me to completely take care of her, do all the chores, work part time, etc. all while I was taking a full classload. After about a week I told her that I needed some help and that she needed to contribute to our relationship too. She agreed to start doing the wash and to start grocery shopping and cooking some meals with my help. Except for two months during the pregnancy, she had horrible morning sickness all day long. She was ten pounds lighter when she had the baby than when she became pregnant! This had to be the worst trauma time of her entire life. She felt physically ill, her mother withdrew from her emotionally, she was living in a difficult environment for several months and had to learn to do all the things to live as an independent adult.
I tried to be as understanding as I could be, but as time went on I was getting increasingly depressed and frustrated. Of course, there was very minimal sex, but also things like an arm around the shoulder, holding hands, hugging etc. was also not allowed by her. When I tried to do these things or comfort her, she accused me of just wanting sex. I felt very hurt, because I cared about her very deeply and felt unable to help her. When I talked, S went along with what I said, but didn't follow through with the commitments she made. When I asked what was wrong, she just said she would try harder to follow through. It became apparent after a while, that she was simply saying whatever she thought she needed to to keep peace, and had no intention of actually keeping these commiments. She told me that her mother had raised her that the man was the head of the house and it was the woman's duty to go along with whatever he said. Not that she actually did that, but I told her that I did NOT want that kind of relationship, that I wanted her as my equal and partner. She said that she knew that, but felt that she had to follow what her mother said. Funny, but I never did really see her do that. The only concession she seemed to make to that approach was to withhold her feelings and thoughts and simply agree with whatever I said. It was so bad that I had to make sure that she gave her opinion first so I could trust wether she was telling the truth or not.
After the delivery, S developed symptoms that have eventually been diagnosed as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome by elminating other, similar conditions. She has been in pain for many years and takes a lot of tylenol to combat it. At first she moped around with a “Why me?” attitude and made little attempt to get out. I noticed that the CFS pain seemed to be much worse when she was stressed and hopeless and much better when she was up and moving and active. I still believe that a lot of of this is controlled by her emotions and mood. When I suggested this to her she accused me of not believeing that she was in pain or that there was actually anything wrong with her.
I made all kinds of excuses for the problems over the next several years, including the changes and stresses of the beginning of our marriage, and also added that after the baby is born, after the baby sleeps through the night, money was tight, I didn't spend enough time with her due to work and class, etc. I told myself that when all these stresses went away, our close relationship would return. Where S had been the most outgoing person around before, she now found it extremely difficult to make any friends and became a homebody. This was also made worse by that fact that we only had one car that I drove to school. She sometimes dropped me off and picked me up, but found it too hard to do most of the time with the baby.
I began to notice what I called the Dance of Death about this time. Everytime I took a step toward S to help or support her, she would get more distant from me. When I stopped, she stopped. When I retreated in pain and hurt, she would then start pursuing me and ask why I was so distant and blame me for being unavailable. I would then think she was ready and take a step towards her, starting the whole thing again.
I graduated, got a job out of state and moved. Her mother was so upset about this and taking her granddaughter, that they left in the middle of the night without telling us when they had been staying with us. Well, we had moved to a nice house and started making friends with the neighbors. The baby was older and slept through the night. I had a good job, made good money and only had to work 40 hours a week rather than the 60-80 I had done at university. Almost all of the previous excuses and external stresses were gone. But still when I brought up any issue, no matter how small it seemed to me, she said “That didn't happen!” I thought OK, she has her own viewpoint and experience so I asked her what her impression of the event or issue was. She said “I don't know, but that didn't happen.” This happened whenever I tried to talk about us or feelings. I thought that maybe she felt I was too angry and so I tried to reassure her by keeping my voice low and even and telling her that I wasn't perfect and didn't expect her to be, that I wasn't out to get her, but wanted to discuss changes that would allows us both to be happier. None of that seemed to help. In fact, she always claimed to have no memory of me ever offering to be supportive, or talking calmly, but only as angry and frustrated. There was definitely that too, since I couldn't figure out what was wrong, why S reacted with such hostility to me and what, if anything, I could do to improve the situation.
Well my fantasies that it was just the external stresses and situations that had caused the problems between us were shattered. I didn't know what else to do but keep trying to talk it out with S. I tried being rational and demonstrating that the events I wanted to talk about had happened by pointing out the obvious consequences from thoese events. Of course in hindsight, being rational only made things even worse, since she had emotionally held beliefs, not rational ones. Without being able to find out what was wrong, I began to feel more and more helpless and ineffective as a person, though I didn't seem to have these kinds of problems with anyone else.
All of that pent up anger inside S had to go somewhere and it usually came out passive-aggresively. For example, she would often promise to do something, but not do it and procrastinate getting it done until I had to step in to take care of it so it didn't affect me. If I reminded her to cash the checks at the bank, she wouldn't, just to show that she was in control and didn't have to listen to me. It got so bad that I really cut back on saying anything to here for fear of how she would use it against me. This was by far the most common way she expressed herself and destroyed most of the trust that I have lost in her.
During this time, I started to notice that when either family came to visit, S would take the opportunity to make snide comments about me in front of our guests and blame me for problems and sigh about how bad I made things for her. I asked her to stop doing this privately, but she denied that any such thing had ever happened and couldn't even imagine what event I could be blowing out of proportion to think it was. After several years of this, when she did this to me in front of my family in a resaurant, I gave it back to her and chewed here out loudly in front of my family and the rest of the diners. She was mortified in front of other witnesses and that was the last time she did it, though she expressed fear after that of having guests and another conforntation. She never did admit to remebering doing any of those things. In her experience, I was the nut case, because I would suddenly respond to things she had no memory or experience of.
While S had always spent all the money, and I mean all the money, around this time she started to make bigger and bigger charges on the credit cards. When I confronted her and asked her to stop, she simply denied that any such thing had ever taken place and wondered what was wrong with me. I did check and all the charges were with her card at local shops that were here favorite spots. She had come into the marriage with credit card debt, which I paid off when we got married. We had to put things on the credit cards to make it through university before I had a full time job. Once I started working, we started paying those cards down and made significant progress. However, with her new spending, the balance on our credit cards eventually hit over $82,000! To be fair, some portion of that was to pay for my therapy, since we no longer had the cash, since we had to pay a sky-rocketing credit card bill each month. She simply denied that it was happening and refused to look at the credit card bill when I showed it to her. I was afraid that she could divorce me and get all the money if I kept the money from her and took her off the credit cards. That seems ridiculous to me now, but I was already headed toward other problems. I finally told her that I would divorce her immediately, no questions asked, if she charged anything like that ever again. She hasn't charged like that since I stood up to her. Also, I have always had to fight her to have savings of any kind, including retirement and 401k. She wants to be able to spend as much as she wants and has only grudgingly ever worked with me to try to figure out how to pay for everything.
After several years there I got another job several hours away and we relocated. The loss of my social support combined with the stress of living with someone so angry and hostile, while trying to understand and improve the situation was too much for me. I began to believe S that the things I remembered seeing and hearing didn't actually happen and that I had hallucinated them. I felt that I could no longer trust any of my experiences, feelings or thoughts since they conflicted so badly with S's absolute, unquestioning confidence. This turned to self-blame and took me from long standing dysthymia (sp?) that I had been unaware of, to full blown depression a year later. I was in therapy for major depression for 7 years, including individual and group. I took Zoloft 5 of those 7 years, which completely killed my sex drive. That was actually a relief to me, since I felt I no longer had to ask S for sex every night so I could try to catch the 1 night every 2-6 months where she was willing. I found out recently, that when I brought the long gaps between intimacy up in the couples counseling, she had started a calendar and marked each time we had sex. She was convinced that my experience was wrong and she wanted to prove to herself that her feelings (not memories) were correct that it was much more often that what I had said. I told her I was very hurt that she had kept a calendar of how long between sex and used that as a guide to how often she decided to “give in” instead of working on bridging the distance between us.
In my therapy, I learned that I had many issues from growing up in an emotionally unavailable, emotionally neglectful, and angry home with my parents. It just seemed totally normal to me. I was amazed when others reacted so strongly to my story in group. It didn't seem worth mentioning when there are so many people out there who are physically, and sexually abused as children. What seemed really strange to me were people who grew up in a loving home where the parents talked with their children.
My mother always seemed to be angry, so I learned to avoid her. My dad was pretty much non-present whether he was physically home or not. I basically learned that tolerating an angry, emotionally unsupportive environment was “normal.” I coped with this by becoming an “adult child” and taking on a lot of responsibility for myself. I learned to put my own Christmas presents together and read directions to learn how to play new games. My parents never once expressed that they were glad I was there or was an important member of the family. At home, it was OK to talk about facts, but nobody every talked about their feelings or explained anything having to do with emotions, getting along with others, how to fix relationship problems, or how to have a good relationship. Basically, both my parents were depressed, with my dad the classic shutdown case and my mom the angry, jittery type. I obviously had a lot of factors pushing me toward unhealthy relationships and depression.
Once I began to regain connection with my feelings, I asked S to start joint counseling. We each had a therapist to be on our side and balance power and all four of us met together for the joint therapy. During this period S would snort and roll her eyes dimissively when I talked, both in and out of the therapy. When the therapists saw this, they both told her it was inappropriate and wrong to do this. S only lasted 4-5 sessions before she claimed that she did not need to go anymore since her therapist “told her” she was “perfectly fine and didn't need therapy.” During this period when I was in in therapy, I primarily concentrated on working my own issues, since I really didn't have the energy to take on anything else. S took every opportunitiy to kick me while I was down during this period and repeatedly told me how she was “perfectly fine and could have a good relationship with anybody, just like that. You are the one who brought all of the problems into our marriage!” I told her that I believed we both had issues that we brought into this relationship. She just snorted and rolled her eyes.
It was also during this time that she told our daughter that she didn't feel safe talking with me and that it was OK for my daughter to not talk with if she didn't feel safe either. Well, of course that put the idea in my daughters head and there has been a lot of emotional distance between my daughter and I for a long time. (I'm making up for that now!) Recently, when this came out in counseling, S did take the initiative to talk to my daughter, explain that she was not right to do that and suggest that it would be OK for my daughter to start talking with me again. I believe that his came about because she has always prided herself on “putting her daughter first” except when it comes to working things out with her husband. Also, I believe she was embarassed in front of an authoritative witness, the counselor. Now that I think about it, I 'd bet the reason S finally agreed to see this counselor is that she's an older woman and can fulfil the authoritative mother role for S.
There were other ways in which S always tried to work things out for my daughter with me instead of allowing us to work it out ourselves so we could build a strong relationship. S saw herself as our daughter's saviour, since I was obviously such a dangerous, demented person. I'll just mention at this point that I don't do drugs, am not an alcoholic, and have never ever hit anyone, nor will I ever do any of these things. Being depressed and over-controlled does have some advantages at last!
I feel that I made it through recovery for depression despite my wife, rather than bacause of, or without her. When I left therapy, I continued to work on some loose-end issues for a while and then dived back into trying to work on my relationship with S. She told me she thought there was something wrong with me for continuing to bring up the same issues over and over again. I never had a chance for any closure on these issues with her since she denied they ever happened, let alone have any chance for healing or growing closer together. I tried to impart some of the things I learned from my counseling. She was unwilling to go along with mirroring back what each other said to make sure that the message was received correctly. Interestly, this is one of the things she claims to have mastered in more recent counseling. During this time I begged her to go to any knid of counseling or therapy at all and find the kind of help I had found. She claimed that it would be too expensive, even though I assured her I would do whatever it took to pay for it.
Starting about two years ago, I began to find myself feeling increasing rage with her when trying to discuss anything. I would sometimes just start screaming and swearing at her, way out of proportion to the issue. I was and am afraid of feeling so out of control and that's not how I want to resolve issues. I don't expect that behavior to be successful or help, but just to cause even more problems. It was around this time that I began to think seriously about divorce.
Last Christmas we were back visiting our families for the holidays and S's mother called to say that they were having her brother and his family to stay over rather than have us stay as planned. Her brother had been estranged from the family for some time. He was adopted and had gone off to live with his biological parents for a while, moved back, got married, had an affair, got divorced and alienated his parents in the process. This rift with her mother caused S enormous distress and she almost couldn't function at all that day. My daughter and I told her that we would support whatever decision she made about seeing her family and going to visit. The next day after several phone calls, she reconciled with her mother we went to visit.
A few days later I lay awake all night with thoughts racing through my head and wasn't sure why. The main thought I had was “No matter what I do or don't do, no matter what I say or don't say, how come it doesn't matter?” over and over. I just couldn't comprehend it. Finally, it hit me “No matter what I do or not, or say or not, it doesn't matter.” It was a fact and I simply accepted it instead of denying it and fighting against it. I realized that what had prompted this revelation for me is that S was far more upset over a fairly minor tiff with her mother than she had ever been with our whole horrible marriage. Her relationship with her mother was obviously far more important to her than our marriage had ever been. Shortly after returning home, I told her that my needs were continuing to go unmet with no way I could see for me to have a positive impact on the situation. I asked if she had any positive feelings towards me whatsoever that a relation ship could be built on. She thought for a while and replied that no, she couldn't find any good feelings for me. I told her that I didn't see anything else to do but get a divorce. Despite having no respect for me or positive feelings towards me she said that she wasn't happy with the situation, but didn't want it to end. I pointed out to her that she still got to live off my money, but I got nothing at all in return from her and was unwilling to continue such a lopsided relationship.
We told my daughter about the divorce together, and I have never felt lower in all my life, not even in depression. I consider it my number one job to help my daughter learn to be a happy healthy person and protect her, and here I was the one who was causing her such deep hurt. On top of everything else, I harbor a huge amount of anger towards S for driving things to this point.
When we told family and friends who had seen us together, they all said that they were not surprised and had seen it coming. For a long time we had not been close in any way, and I was surprised by how obvious it was to others.
S's main concern and source of anger towards me as we talked about plans and dividing over the next week or so was all about money. This included comments like “What do you care, you'll have a lot of money?” and “Must be nice to have all the financial power?” in a sarcastic hateful tone. I just let it roll off my back, I no longer had to care about she felt, what she thought, what experience of mine she would deny or what nasty, passive-agressive thing she was planning to do to me next. I don't remember ever feeling so free and happy. Besides, she was drastically minimizing the amount of effort and time I had put in to reach become an skilled and valuable employee.
My father-in-law called and asked why I wasn't willing to go to counseling. I was surprised and told him that I had been begging S to go to counseling of any kind for years, and that she had always refused in the past. He told me that that's not the story he got from S, and I told him that I did not want to badmouth S to him. S had mentioned counseling when we talked about divorce, but I reponded by saying “Do you really think that would do any good at this point?” It never even entered my mind that she could be serious about it. I figured she was just feeling me out to find if I was serious about divorce this time or just another time of me saying I couldn't take it anymore, but staying and continuing to try anyway. I went back and asked if she was serious about the counseling and she said that she was.
She had a flyer for an Imago couples retreat she got from one of the divorce lawyers she saw and after reading the Getting the Love You Want book behind it, I agreed to give it a try. BTW, this was the exact same retreat I had asked her to go to years before after she left the couples therapy, but she didn't remember that. Go figure.
At the retreat, there was a moment where I believe that she saw me as a human being for the first time in her life and cried. At the end, each couple stood in front and told each other what the learned and changes they were willing to make. I told here that I was putting away the exit of Divorce and wanted to work things out with her. We both cried and hugged, which was the first physical contact we had in about two years.
As part of this process we take turns talking on alternate days. The process is where one person talks and the other mirrors to make sure that they got it right. When the talker is done, the listener repeats it all again and says what about it makes sense to them to validate it and then gives their understanding of the talkers feelings about the subject. At first I was very hopeful, since S was stretching by trying to talk about things and listen to me. After a while, I began to feel more and more used, since S claimed she was now doing everything right and I should be grateful, and that I was holding HER back by talking about how my needs were still not getting met. You see, I had another of those unreasonable expectations, that if we were able to talk about things, we would be able to work our issues out. After all that worked great for me with everyone else in my life.
In fact, I now believe that my mere presence triggers her to be distant and unapproachable. This works at home and also at counseling, anywhere, really. If I'm in the room, she needs to view me as being just like her mother, out to merge with her and use her and she has to protect herself. I believe that she does this because as much as she hates the kind of relationship she had with her mother, it is the only thing she knows and can believe is possible.
As time has gone on, S has found ways to do this process to the letter of the law, but without compassion or empathy that I can see. Where the idea of divorce left me feeling free and hopeful, I have been feeling more and more used and angry. S does just enough to claim that she is doing it just right, but that there must still be something wrong with me that I am not grateful and all our problems are not solved. She still makes all the same claims I have heard since day one, that she is fine, she knows what my needs are, she can meet my needs, and she wants to do it, but that I am somehow always keeping her from actually doing it. When I ask for more than just her word on these things, to hear what lead her to find the empathy, develop the understanding or master the skills she had been lacking before, she has no answer and just shakes her head about how I hold her back from being to treat me with respect or take action to meet my needs.
She now claims that she wants more physical contact like hugs, hand-holding, and love pats. However, she is unable to explain why this change came, or whether she will ever be able to have a healthy sexual relationship. She absolutely refuses to talk about sex, what the problems were and are for her, and what she feels she would need to be able to ever engage in sexual activity. I don't trust this and am not willing to jump in on this until I know it's not another attempt to control me. She has an invisible line between physical contact and sexual contact, but can't tell me where it is. I'm tired of being criticised for crossing the line that I didn't know was there and still don't have any idea where it is.
Each time we talk now, I simply feel used and grow angrier each time. The last time we talked I told her flat out that I did not take her word for anything and that I had to see the actions or at the very least hear the specific experiences which have lead her to now be willing and able to treat me better and meet my needs. Her excuse is that she's always felt this way and nothing is really different, that I'm still stopping her. I'm afraid that she may be right that nothing has changed. That doesn't give me any hope, though.
As time goes on, I have been thinking more and more about divorce. She points out my commitment to her to close that exit and the retreat and wants a written commitment to keep divorce closed no matter what. I agree that it would be breaking my word to do that at this point, but I am so low and hopeless, I don't really care anymore. I feel that she will use the “no matter what” of that agreement to do whatever she feels like, but will still hold me to meet comittments. I strongly suspect that she knew she would be unwilling or unable to do what was necessary to really work out issues between us, but was willing to go through the motions to prolong the income from me and to get me in a position where she can claim that I'm the bad guy, breaking his word. I am so tired of feeling manipulated and controlled by S, even though I know it and choose not to go along with it.
At this point I just don't care anymore. I don't care if I really did hallucinate my entire life up to this point and have all kinds of social, mental, and emotional problems remaining. I do not deserve to be treated the way that S has always treated me. I deserve at least the hope of finding someone out there who sees value in me and is willing to work together to create a good relationship where we both are equally valid and get our needs met. I can no longer find it in myself to even pretend that I trust or like S or have hope that we can ever work out our problems. Of course, as in the past, the closer to hopelessness I get, the more optimistic and promising she claims to feel, continuing the Dance of Death. I just dread that continuing and never stopping until one of us dies of old age.
Why have I stayed? A lot of reasons. Fear. I told myself that this was my last hope at a good relationship. Thank God, I no longer believe that one. Fear that no-one would believe me, since S is much more socially adept and liked than I am. Fear that if I left, S would start to take these things out on our daughter. I still have those two to some degree, but feel like I could deal with them if they happened. The Love that I had for the person I thought I was marrying. I now realize that the person I thought I was marrying never existed and was just a false front S put up to lure me in. When she had me, that went away and the real thing came out. A lot of stubborness and making excuses why things hadn't worked out yet. These are mostly gone now. Unwillingness to admit failure. I have failed in some spectacular ways written here, but no longer fear that this means I am unworthy of love and caring. I'm sure there are more that I haven't even realized yet.
Recently I did some core transformation work in counseling. This helped me tremendously. I feel much more connected to everyone and everything, including God, by listening to those little voices inside my head, honoring their intent to help and protect me, and working with them to find a better way to keep me safe while allowing tmore needs to get met. It's quite a moving experience that I highly recommend. This closer connection has allowed me to give this relationship and everything in my life up to God. I wasn't expecting it and didn't plan but was just ready for it, I guess. I'm obviously Codependent, I have stayed in a very unhealthy relationship for a long time convinced that I can make a difference, when the other person has no intention of changing. I plan to start going to CODA meetings after the holidays and start a 12-step program. I could really use the understanding and support, as well as the challenge to keep me making progress in my life.
I have managed to learn more about S over the past several months. Actually, I have learned more over the last several months than the previous 16 years. Her mother emotionally incested her. I have seen some call it covert incest. There was no sex or physical abuse. S was the chosen one and mother's emotional partner, instead of her daughter. Her mother made her sit down and figure the finances and how they would pay all of the bills since money was so tight. This was at 8-10 years old! Her mother repeated things over and over to her. She told her that she was the only thing keeping her alive and that she wouldn't be able to live without her. S was repsonsible for her mother's life! Her mother refused to see anything less than perfection in S and was very disapproving if she ever expressed her own thoughts or feelings. S learned that she had to anticipate her mothers moods and take care of her feelings, since her mother claimed she was unable to do so herself. She constantly talked with S about all the problems she was having with people at church and how bad and dangerous people are. S learned to listen to the same repeated stories that never seemed to change and to suppress herself to anticipate and meet all of her mother's emotional needs. Her mother was a huge martyr and would lay guilt trips on S every chance she got. Even when S got something special, she learned that meant you had a debt and an obligation to the giver that you had to fulfil. There was never anything given freely, even love, there was always a string of obligation attached. Nothing was ever given to her just because S was a good, deserving human being, only as a tactic to create more obligation and control.
It makes sense to me that S would hate hearing the same things over and over again from me. That she would supress her awareness and feelings to keep the peace. That she would be able to give to others and see that as good but be afraid of the perceived obligation that would come from receiving good things from me. That she would be afraid of being merged or overwhelmed if I get too close and keeps a safe distance with the Dance of Death. That she would be unable to see the inherent human worth of me, because her mother did not see or admit it to her. That she would use denial as a way to try to avoid conflict, since her mother would rather not be aware of anything she didn't like, so S learned to do so as well. That she would be unable to successfully resolve problems, because she has no practice at it and no trust in talking to work things out. That she would see me as an object to be used to meet her needs since that's what her mother did to her. That she would see me as a bully come to swallow her up, since that's what her mother did.
I am afraid that S picked up so many and such strong Narcissitic traits that she will never be able to break free of that trap. That she will not be able to remember that I am a feeling human being, not an object to be used to meet her needs however she sees fit. That she will not be able to break her fear of intimacy and get rid of the Dance of Death. That she will never be able to have a healthy sexual and physical reltionship. That she will never be aware enough of her words and actions both while and after they occur, to have a relationship based in reality. That she will not be able to break free of denial and change her behavior, because she has already convinced herself that she has done so. That she will always blame me for problems so she can still look at herself as the perfect helper that her mother forced her to pretend to be. That she will never be able to see a relationship between equals, but always feel she has to fight for the powerful “one-up” position to avoid being the victim, the only two positions she knows. That S will never be able to realize that I am not “just like her mother” but see me as I am. That she will never trust that I am not a monster out to gobble her up, but someone who wants to be happy and help her.
Wow, I'm impressed if you read the whole thing. I've tried to be as objective as I can right now, but you get the idea. Thanks for reading this, drop a reply if you feel so moved.
-
Welcome and thanks for sharing. :)
Quite a story....very sad. You really understand the situation. Your wife is emotionally disturbed (seriously) and your idea of a mature adult relationship is not going to happen with her. It's beyond her capacities.
My take is to work on the codependency so that you can separate from her and have a life. I don't see any reason to suffer on and on as you have been doing since high school.
bunny
-
Dear Longtire,
You may already be familiar with Dallas Willard's writing. If not may I recommend his book, Renovation of the Heart. It probably won't impact your wife's life, but you may find comfort and solutions in it. I did.
Chicksquip
-
I have failed in some spectacular ways written here, but no longer fear that this means I am unworthy of love and caring. I'm sure there are more that I haven't even realized yet.
Are you kidding? You seem to have tried everything under the sun. If you failed, it's because you were trying to heal the relationship all by yourself, and she was just putting up a front. You sound like a very caring, intelligent man, worthy of any love and happiness that comes your way.
S sounds very much like my mother. She only had sex to try to have children. After my brothers were born (I'm the oldest and was adopted.) Sex came to a halt. I remember my father trying to just kiss her on the back of the neck, and she'd say, "Oh, get away. Is that all you think about?" Even as a teenager, I saw the hurt in his face. He eventually left her, and spent two wonderful years with a lovely woman when he died suddenly. At the time, he had been trying to get a divorce from Mother (I'll never call her Mom) for some time. Even though he was giving her everything, she still found ways to fight it.
And the manipulation! What S is doing is the very same kinds of things Mother does.
I think you're on the right track to focus on yourself and working on your co-dependency. It'll help you in many areas besides in dealing with S. It sounds like you were "set up" by your parents, as I was by my mother. She used to call me names, control me and deliberately humiliate me in front of people, then claim innocence. It's taken me years to grow a backbone and learn to set boundaries...meaning absolutely no one may treat me like that ever again. My new healthy way of thinking comes after two divorces, several not-so-good relationships, and finally, the realization that I need only to look within myself for happiness.
Good luck.
-
Longtire,
Thank you for your thought-felt post. You have chronicled a situation that sounds long past its prime and has resulted in the destruction of two people -- you, for having to endure such a life -- and S, for being able to perpetrate this type of control (on not only you but, probably, your daughter, too).
I am with Glennis. It sounds as if you tried everything. In the short time I was involved with an N, I tried several avenues of self-help, spiritual healing, couples counseling and voraciously reading anything I could get my hands on in dealing with detachment and lowering expectations. None of it changed my N.
Not all was lost. I learned a lot in the process but am realizing so much these days that life is short and we all deserve happiness.
Good luck with sorting this out. It sounds as if you already have some answers and that, when ready, you'll proceed in a way that promotes your inner truth and values.
-
Thank you for reading and responding to my post. It really helps to get some supportive feedback. It was really tough to put it out there for public reading. This was the first time I have been able to put the whole thing together, though I have written bits and pieces of this doing other work.
Bunny, thanks for the support. Chicksquip, I am not familiar with Willard's writing, but have ordered the book. Thanks for the recommendation. Glennis1953, I'm sorry to hear about your mother's behavior. I sympathize with how difficult it is to live with someone who doesn't have your best interests at heart. Bludie, thank you for sharing your experience.
Even though I believe that I can only view the world and act based on my own experience, not someone else's, I was still really afraid that someone would write in that it sounded to them as if I was solely responsible for causing all the problems and am the one out of touch with reality. I think I need to find the whispering voice inside my head that keeps saying that and find a new job for it!
I still feel torn. On the one hand, I don't trust S and don't believe that she will ever really change at heart. On the other hand, S tells me that she is changing, and I have seen some changes, just not in the areas I need. I want to stay for my long-held dreams of a good life with S and for my daughter, but I don't see a workable way right now. It would be much easier on me if S did not always claim to be doing the right thing, or to always be right on the verge of a breakthrough. It would obviously make my decision much easier if she just came out and said "Screw you!"
I plan to keep talking with my parents, who I have opened up a lot to and who have been very supportive. I will continue my reading and emotional work and growth. I will love my daughter and friends. And I will keep reading and hopefully posting here.
longtire
-
Please keep writing, Longtire. I've been trying to acheive an authentic intimacy with my husband for 15 years and have recently realized it is hopeless and not my fault. I, too, mourn for his dysfunctional way of surviving. Unfortunately, I mourn his loss of himself more than he does. As far as he is concerned, it isn't him. It's everyone and everything else.
-
Guest, thanks for writing. I hadn't been back after the holidays. I'd forgotten how helpful for me it is to read the support on this board, even when it's between two other people! I think with my history of an emotionally blank family growing up and the abuse from my spouse, it's hard for me to remember that other people can care and be supportive. This is what I want the most, but even wanting it, it's still hard fro me to really believe in and trust it. I'm working on it, though.
I've been spending a lot of time working on forgiving my wife's behavior. I've been going through the book "Forgivness is a Choice" by Robert Enright. This has detailed steps to go through to get to forgivness, and acknowledges you to take time and really make sure you are ready and willing to do this. I've known for a long time that I would be happier if I could forgive her, but I literally didn't know how. I just realized this week that I don't remember ever seeing anyone forgive me or others this way. I also don't remember seeing anyone ask for forgiveness and expressing genuine regret at the effects of their behavior. One of the things that I have come to realize is that my wife's behavior is still hurting her far worse than it ever has hurt me, and that's saying a lot! I am making steady, if tough, progress and feel lighter and happier every time I take a step. What a relief!
I found a site that expresses my experience with my wife perfectly. I could have written every word and recognize every feeling. I'm so grateful for people who are willing to share their experiences. That's what prompted me to finally break my silence and start sharing. Here's the link (I hope it comes out right in the post, my first link!)
http://www.conflictingpersonalities.com/
I still feel conflicted about what to do with my relationship with my wife. On the one hand, I feel like it is expected that I forgive and should stay in the marriage no matter what. On the other hand, I now recognize the deeply unheathly basis of this relationship in the past, and know that I have to stand up for and take care of myself. I know that the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but if there were any easy answers in this case, we are way past them. I sort of bounce back and forth between thinking that I have put in enough time, and that I should leave the relationship, as I have been impotently threatening to do for years. On the other hand, what if she has truly made a change and is now capable and willing to have the kind of relationship with me that I want?
I guess I'm getting somewhat ahead of myself. The first thing I have to do is forgive, before I can really consider whether reconciliation is possible. So far, I have not seen that changes from her that I would need, despite her claims that she is different now. When I ask for information about how, when and why she changed so dramatically, the discussion gets immediately deflected to how I am the one causing all the problems and giving her no choice but act the way she does. To me, that doesn't sound like any change, just the same old thing wrapped up in new words. At least we have taken a break from trying to do the Imago work, until I am done with the forgiveness work and can figure out where to go from there.
Well, again I start out to make a quick reply and end up putting down a lot of words. I guess I still have a lot I have to say! :roll:
-
Hello there
The first thing I have to do is forgive
I'm not sure what happened in the reconciliation process in South Africa, but I don't think forgiveness came first. I think what comes first is the honest admission of responsibility from both parties about what they did and didn't do. Then true and meaningful apologies, then reconciliation. Forgiveness happens almost naturally. Forgiveness is when you stop hurting and stop being angry and it doesn't matter to you (emotionally) any more. Then you have forgiven. Pushing yourself to forgive doesn't work imo.
-
Guest, thanks again for your replies! I'm glad to have someone show interest in what I have to say, and to have a good deep converstion about something I've been pondering a lot recently.
I have been miserable about the situation with my wife and unable to move on with my life for many years. To be honest, the reason why I am working to forgive her is for me, so that I can get rid of this resentment and be the happy caring person that I remember being and want to be again. I am not saying I had nothing to be angry about. If that were the case then I would also have nothing to forgive. But, if I wait until my wife discovers remorse for her actions, if that ever happens, I have given her power and control over my life. She already believes that she must strictly control the level of intimacy in a relationship as the only way to be safe, so why would she ever want to change that situation? It is exactly what she believes she needs! Granting her this power over me has allowed her to control me and maintain just the right distance between us, at least as far as she was concerned. I want to break out of this game and make more conscious choices for my own life from now on.
On reading my previous post again, I can see how you could take my comments to mean that I was either taking unilateral responsibility for fixing the relationship with my wife or doing something that I may not be ready for just because I'm "supposed to." One reason I like this book so much is at first it focuses on what holding on to this anger and resentment has done to me. How has it affected my mood? How happy have I been? How well is it working at getting what I need and want? How has it affected my relationships with friends, parents, children, and strangers even? Answering these questions for myself has helped me to see in detail what I have lost and given up by holding on to this resentment. It has helped me to find the motivation to forgive and move on so I can have all that good stuff back in my life. Having this anger does not feel like me, and often feels out of control. Beyond that, the wife uses my anger as justification for her own behavior and tries to provoke me to getting angry in front of others to demonstrate what a martyr she is for putting up with me. Basically, I have been angry for a long time and it hasn't ever worked for me. I'm past ready to try something different.
Ideally, my wife would put aside her denial, recognize the hurt her behavior has caused me, offer a genuine apology, rather than saying "I'm sorry, now get over it!" and ask for me to forgive her. But if I wait around for her to do that, I could be waiting the rest of my life, miserable and angry! Holding onto anger and resentment with her has gotten me farther from what I want, not closer. I am motivated to address my issues, get back to seeing her humanity, let go of these burdens and move forward being happy again!
Does that make sense?
-
I'm sorry to say but it sounds as though your wife remains married to you for financial and status reasons.
She doesn't want to be a middle-aged divorcee, she knows she will probably never be capable of intimacy with anybody and she is clinging to you as a security blanket. All the time she is disrespecting you and wearing down your spirit and well-being.
I am not being cruel, but I think for your own good, you should leave her. You have gone beyond the call of duty with this woman who exhibits so many N traits!!
The issue of forgiveness is interesting to me. I personally felt that once I understood NPD - there was really nothing to forgive? I still believe my N mother didn't
I am, however, left with overwhelming sadness set out to damage me, but her self-obsession made her emotionally sterile to anybody else and she is only capable of superficial relationships in her social circle. She always was way more worried about what the neighbours thought of her than her nearest and dearest!!!
I've used the term 'psychological orphan' before on here. This is how I feel. It's almost like having a robotic effigy of a person but there's no feeling, warmth or compassion in their hearts.
Don't get me wrong - it took me nine years of therapy (3 times a week) to get where I am now.
My life is not perfect but I can get up in the morning and like myself. I never, ever thought I could say, let alone mean, those words before seeking help.
Also, please don't feel guilty if you divorce her. N's seem to brush off any setback very quickly.
-
Hello again. I want to go back to your earlier post:
I feel like it is expected that I forgive and should stay in the marriage no matter what.
Who expects you to do this? (Parents, society etc.) Maybe it’s some hidden ‘voice’ inside you telling you what’s expected of you. Why is it expected of you? If other people aren’t expected to forgive and stay married, why does it apply to you? You know how many marriages don’t last, you wouldn’t be alone in getting divorced! Would you feel ‘guilty’ and if yes, why? (It takes two to make a marriage and two to allow it to fail.)
I'm glad to have someone show interest in what I have to say
Wouldn’t it be good if that someone was your partner? That is what some partnerships and marriages are like. They talk to and listen to each other. They share the load of life’s problems and they share their joy with each other. And they enjoy sex together, when they both want to. These types of relationships do exist. Don’t you deserve one? (Yes you do!)
That anger and resentment is there for a good reason. It’s okay to be angry, even with yourself, if you want to change and seem to be sabotaging yourself in the process. Maybe this link will help. Anger has positive applications too. http://www.mtoomey.com/violating_liberating.html Keep posting.
-
I feel like it is expected that I forgive and should stay in the marriage no matter what. Who expects you to do this? (Parents, society etc.) Maybe it’s some hidden ‘voice’ inside you telling you what’s expected of you. Why is it expected of you? If other people aren’t expected to forgive and stay married, why does it apply to you? You know how many marriages don’t last, you wouldn’t be alone in getting divorced! Would you feel ‘guilty’ and if yes, why? (It takes two to make a marriage and two to allow it to fail.)
It is a "voice" inside me, not so much from anyone else. I am aware of the effect that divorcing would have on my daughter, my folks, her folks, and some good friends to both of us. While I don't like the idea of causing these people difficulty or even pain with my decision, I relaize that I have to live according to my own experience and make the best decisions that I am able.
Now that I think about it, I know that still have strong unresolved issues desiring intimacy and touch that my parents were not able to give me as a child (depressed themselves).
I view marriage as the best way (the way?) to get the verbal/ emotional intimacy and touch that I crave in order to help heal this unmet need inside me. So, it is hard for me to end my marriage and give up the possibility of getting those needs met, no matter how temporary or transitory that state might be. Note that I said difficult, not impossible. I'm still working on many of my issues in this area. Everytime I discuss it and someone asks me questions, I end up making progress. Segue to next topic...
I'm glad to have someone show interest in what I have to say
Wouldn’t it be good if that someone was your partner? That is what some partnerships and marriages are like. They talk to and listen to each other. They share the load of life’s problems and they share their joy with each other. And they enjoy sex together, when they both want to. These types of relationships do exist. Don’t you deserve one? (Yes you do!)
I agree that I both want and deserve this kind of relationship. It is the motivation to have this in my life that drives my self-examination and change. The more I discuss my feelings and thoughts with others, the more I realize that is my primary way of exploring things. I can do it on my own, but it is simply not as effective, since I miss out on all the information that you have and I don't, yet. It also helps me to put into words, either verbal or written, the "discoveries" that I make. It seems to make it more real to me. So, I guess I found my way back to shedding voicelessness again with that train of thought!
That anger and resentment is there for a good reason. It’s okay to be angry, even with yourself, if you want to change and seem to be sabotaging yourself in the process. Maybe this link will help. Anger has positive applications too. http://www.mtoomey.com/violating_liberating.html Keep posting.
I have been reading her site for some time. Thanks for the pointer again. I agree that my anger over being hurt is a good thing, and provides the energy and motivation for me to take action. However, I have also been holding on to resentment, dehumanization, and the desire for revenge and punishment. I don't expect the anger and disappointment over my wife's behavior to go away. I am hopeful that the resentment, etc. will go away, as I continue to become more aware of how ineffective and counter-productive it has been in my life. From the website's prespective, I want to take those angry traits that I have on the violating anger side of the table and substitue ones from the liberating anger side. To me, it's more of a transformation than getting rid of anything or going back to denial or suppressing my feelings.
Another great help recently has been the realization that throughout my life, I have been doing my best to care for myself, and making the best decisions I could. Accepting this has taken a lot of negativity and hopelessness out of my life. Now I can concentrate on learning to take better care of myself and make better decisions for myself. That seems doable to me and doesn't require anyone else's agreement or cooperation.
Guest, it seems to be your position that it is fairly obvious that I should just leave the situation and that things will be better elsewhere for me. Is this the gist of what you are saying? If so, I don't disagree with that, but I want to know why I'm leaving, how I feel about things, and why I expect to get my needs met by leaving, so that I can make the decision to leave with confidence. I don't consider this self-sabotage, but want to have awareness of my reasons to make sure that I am not simply blaming outside sources for my problems, and refusing to consider, and most importantly, change my own contributions to the problem, so it doesn't happen again. For example, I chose this kind of relationship once in my life. I want to be confident that I now know some of the signs, am better able to recognize it and can avoid it in the future. Otherwise, I expect that I would keep repeating the same pattern with the same results. Where's the hope in that? I want to make changes in my life so I am naturally attracted to healthy people and situations, rather than what has been a pattern in my life until now of accepting unhealthy people in my life.
-
I'm sorry to say but it sounds as though your wife remains married to you for financial and status reasons.
That is the conclusions that I have come to, as well. I think there is also a "fear of failing and looking bad" for her, since most of her sense of self and self-worth comes though other people. From her perspective, if I divorce her it "proves" that she is a bad, worthless person. Even worse, it is no longer a secret, "everyone else" knows than too.
The issue of forgiveness is interesting to me. I personally felt that once I understood NPD - there was really nothing to forgive? I still believe my N mother didn't set out to damage me, but her self-obsession made her emotionally sterile to anybody else and she is only capable of superficial relationships in her social circle. She always was way more worried about what the neighbours thought of her than her nearest and dearest!!!
I've used the term 'psychological orphan' before on here. This is how I feel. It's almost like having a robotic effigy of a person but there's no feeling, warmth or compassion in their hearts.
I agree that in my case, my wife has not intentionally set out to hurt me. Unfortunately, it is so important to her to protect herself from intimacy that no word or action is off limits. Anything she does that conflicts witth her perfect view of herself is completely denied, so that it never happened, needs no awareness, and does not need to be dealt with in any way. I have been harmed by her behavior, so I do feel the need to forgive. I'm glad that I am learning to have understanding and compassion for her now. Just think, if I can feel that way with her, what can I do with someone who actually admits and apologizes for their hurtful behavior and asks me to forgive them!
Also, please don't feel guilty if you divorce her. N's seem to brush off any setback very quickly.
I had not thought of this before. I do expect this to be a blow to her underdeveloped self-esteem. But, at the same time, I expect her to very quickly deny those feelings and find someone else who is more pliable to use and meet her needs. When I originally told her I didn't see any hope in this relationship and wanted a divorce, she admitted that all her needs were not being met, but that she wanted to keep things as they were indefinitely.
While I was interviewing lawyers and finding a place to, she was saying things like "Gee, it must be nice to have all the financial power!" and "You don't care, because you'll have all the money you need." She did not say anything about what a bad person I was, how I had caused all the problems, etc. Her main concern was the money. I think that is the only thing that got her off her butt to even consider counseling for the first time at that point. Not the emotional pain, the rejection, the unfairness, or any of the other things she always claimed to be upset about. I didn't respond to the bait of these comments, but I was floored that she didn't seem to have any clue about all the long hours and hard work I went through both in school and on the job to learn and improve. She acted like it was just luck that I was able to earn good money and she was not.
Sigh... I have learned a lot about where this comes from for her and how she sort of operates. I doubt that I will ever really understand (groc) her and comprehend things from her point of view. On second thought, change that sigh from one of disappointment, to one of relief! Thank God I don't really get all that!
-
I guess the post timed out. Both of the previous replies are actually me. I'm posting at work and tend to get interrupted frequently.
longtire
-
Longtire....
I think you are a fine, decent person with hopes and dreams like the rest of us.
I like to think that I am a 'survivor' of Narcissism, not a victim. It's taken me 9 years of therapy to get to this point.
I know I'm not perfect, but I'm a good person, as I believe you are.
Something very poignant shines out from your posts - you have such an 'idealised' wish that your wife would love you as much as you love her. Regrettably, this will never happen. I hate to judge somebody I've never met - i.e. your wife - but from your posts, it seems like it has been 'one way traffic' since you first met.
She has never even tried to meet your emotional, physical or spiritual needs.
Grasp this opportunity - I am a huge believer in the concept of 'Love'. I have been with my husband for 20 years and we still glow in each others' company. Strangers note this!!!
There could be somebody similar for you - please take that chance. NEVER COMPROMISE!!!
-
I've been reading this exchange which is really articulate, intelligent, and interesting. And now I'm going to put in my two cents ... :)
serena -- I agree with everything you've said.
longtire -- You are trying to accept your abusive wife and tragic marriage by reasonably looking for ways to adapt (by becoming a better person, forgiving her, rising above it, seeing your wife more objectively, etc.). There seems to be a wall of rationalization that rises up instantly whenever a sensible reason to get divorced is raised. I.e., it would hurt her self-esteem, her family would be appalled, what about the kids, but I want to be a compassionate person, etc. This leads me to feel that you have reasons to stay in this marriage that are actually non-rational and very deep, out of awareness. See, all of your rational reasons can be refuted quite easily by most people even when you articulate them beautifully. Have you ever been in individual therapy with a really good therapist to learn more about yourself?
bunny
-
Bunny, thanks for your reply. After re-reading the previous posts, I can see that people are trying to tell me something. I really, really want to understand, but I think what you are trying to tell me is going over my head. I feel like I understand the words you are writing, but am not getting the underlying message that you are trying to communicate with those words. If you don't mind, try again, use small words, and connect all of the dots. :?
I am really back and forth today. It almost seems normal with my wife, except that neither one of us can stand to be in the room with other for more than a few minutes. We are both polite, but avoid any kind of deeper discussion. On days like today, I lean toward trying to work things out. I've been talking with a good friend who has had problems in his marriage recently as well. I listen and give him support and he does the same for me. Believe me that has helped tremendously! His feedback to me is that I should give things another chance, since his wife hit that "snapback" point where you suddenly realize you want to do things differently and start behaving differently. He believes that could happen in our case. I know what he's talking about, but I really don't see it happening. On days like today, though, I really think about whether that is a possibility.
On most days, I feel like all the loving and even liking is gone for me toward my wife. I obviously don't see how things can work out when that is the case. Whoa! It just hit me that I think I've been sort of expecting that snapback thing to happen to me, but I don't know what I'd be snapping back from. I hear from my friend, parents, counselor, etc. to hang in there and keep trying, but what is going to change? I know what my experience has been, what I want and what I am willing to do and not do to get it. What do I think I'm going to snapback from???? I've also been waiting for my wife to snapback, but I really don't believe that's going to happen at this point. It's one thing to read on some sites about how the N person can really turn on the charm when the relationship is close to ending, its another thing to feel like a fly in that spiderweb and not know which way to go.
Thank you all for your comments and feedback!
-
I am really back and forth today. It almost seems normal with my wife, except that neither one of us can stand to be in the room with other for more than a few minutes. We are both polite, but avoid any kind of deeper discussion.
I think this is the best that you can expect! She isn't capable of a deep discussion.
His feedback to me is that I should give things another chance, since his wife hit that "snapback" point where you suddenly realize you want to do things differently and start behaving differently. He believes that could happen in our case. I know what he's talking about, but I really don't see it happening. On days like today, though, I really think about whether that is a possibility.
I think you will give this marriage infinite chances as long as people suggest it. Because part of you isn't ready to let it go -- even though it's miserable.
bunny
-
longtire : tho I'm no psychotherapist, I believe you are describing the symptoms of dissociation disorder where the controlled person keeps from dealing with memories of abuse by denial/avoidance behavior. It apparently happens often in cases of abuses in the person's childhood--physical, sexual, or emotional abuse. At the time(s) of abuse, the child (now "survivor of abuse") is so overwhelmed by the experience, s/he stores the memory so well as to deny his/her own self access to it. But the anxiety is there waiting to defend against the now "unknown enemy". This probably sounds like a yarn maybe, but consider how human it is for the brain to do all this in the name of survival! Yes, it hurts to feel so mixed up in the middle of such a battle! But blame? Who to blame? Why not blame ol' fallen human nature? It's one way to take the heat off of everybody right away.
As for marriages like this, who knew? S didn't, really. You surely didn't have a clue... So what are you supposed to do if your inside small voice tells you to stay loyal no matter what? Ashley Montagu, world famous Ph.D. who studied the significance of human touch for normal development, says to be human we MUST experience nonsexual, nurturing touching-- both giving and receiving-- every day. We are to understand that no normal sexual touching can take place until this commoner form of intimacy is there first, maybe for a great while. This touching is vital for infants for instance, since they actually die from lack of gentle, "non-essential" touching, that is, not just related to feeding or cleansing.
"Where there's life, there's HOPE!" --Anonymous and Great Wisdom of the Ages ......
Psychotherapy with psychiatric evaluation for the purpose of some therapeutic supplement/medication (low?dose-temporarily, hopefully) may help her/you or both.
Heaven MUST be with you! You are reaching for the stars, you will not be disappointed, I am sure!
-
Longtire,
http://tearsandhealing.com/reality.htm
Have you ever heard of/read this book? This may help as you continue to sift and sort through whether/not to leave your marriage.
-
thanks for sharing your experience. I realize listening to your story what would have happened if I married the woman I was with. I tried everything to be rational, but the woman kept finding a way to pick a fight and distance our relationship. I, like you, keep trying to hope that someday the woman will get better but it wont happen. My ex ran off to another guy after 2 years together like it was nothing. My ex basically put me down for everything I was and it hurt like hell. I am trying to start my life over slowly. Its your life and if you love this woman then try to save your relationship. Its only worth saving though if you know you are in a committed 50/50 relationship with love and respect. I still hurt like hell from the abuse my ex did to me, but I realize that being with somebody who cant love you back and is critical of who you are is worst than ending it. I feel like I cant share my emotions anymore because my ex made me feel like emotions are a sign of weakness. Have you ever felt like this? I am embarrassed that I shed a tear in front of her when I was losing her. When I think about it, she never shed a tear about us once when we were having major problems. I was so frustrated that I was losing it inside. I am rambling, thanks for sharing your story. Make sure you take of yourself and your daughter.
-
Sunnie said:
I believe you are describing the symptoms of dissociation disorder where the controlled person keeps from dealing with memories of abuse by denial/avoidance behavior. It apparently happens often in cases of abuses in the person's childhood--physical, sexual, or emotional abuse. At the time(s) of abuse, the child (now "survivor of abuse") is so overwhelmed by the experience, s/he stores the memory so well as to deny his/her own self access to it. But the anxiety is there waiting to defend against the now "unknown enemy".
This is a good way to look at it (thank you Sunnie), I look at my husband this way (I am the Guest you replied to in Narcisisism II) also.
In his case, though, he had to really hit bottom and have a major breakdown before he could begin to change. By the time he did, I had already accepted that he would not/could not change, or was at least working with that idea as my daily guide for any interactions we had, and otherwise just processing the pain and disappointment as best I could.
I don't think that writing him off, so to speak, was necessarily bad even though he has proved this wrong by now. Accepting that idea as a "truth" and moving forward on my own, for a time, was helpful to me in very many respects, asctually making working it out much easier. I was especially able to be more realistic about my boundaries and needs after living in a world without him for awhile. I even dated someone for a few weeks after about six months of separation, and boy oh boy was I illuminated about my boundaries like never before...I could smell a rat very quickly and put my foot down immediately. As weak as I felt, what with the hurt and anger, I found that my sense of self had actually gotten stronger since "acceptance" became my normal operating parameter.
Interestingly, I think this made me much more able to see what was in front of me - not just the "possibilities", but also the "pitfalls" hiding behind them.
Reading your post here, I realize that my response to you in the aforementioned thread was probably not especially helpful, since you already have a fairly sophisticated understanding of techniques like repeating back and active listening, and presumably have attempted to put them into practice.
That said, I applaud your clarity, and hope you can find the strength you need to do what is most healthy for you and your daughter. what, exactly, that might be is hard to say without being in your shoes.
Acceptance, then grieving, are what I recommend, whether you decide to find a way to live with it in resignation (not recommended) or to move on (messy and painful, too). Tough decision with a child involved, especially if youn are already accused of being emotionally harmful to the child.
From over here, you sound like a pretty good Dad.
-
Snipped from Longtire's post:
I am really back and forth today. It almost seems normal with my wife, except that neither one of us can stand to be in the room with other for more than a few minutes. We are both polite, but avoid any kind of deeper discussion. On days like today, I lean toward trying to work things out.
I feel so sorry that you think the above behaviour is 'normal' and that you should try to work things out. At best, all you can hope for is a formal, sterile, loveless relationship. I don't know you or your wife but do you ever believe you can achieve fundamental happiness and fulfillment in this relationship? Never settle for second best. You never know what's around the corner. I'm almost certain that living alone for a while would bring you more satisfaction than this relentless emotional turmoil.
I'm interested in how you relate to your daughter? I ask this only because I was so messed-up by a N mother, and I didn't have a Dad to protect me. She drove him away when I was nine and didn't permit any contact until I was 15, totally out of spite. He and I are great friends now.
Maybe I'm a total romantic, but I don't think you should ever give up on the search for a life companion. I remember once, after yet another row with my mother, longing to be with my husband as I saw with immense clarity how uncomplicated and loving he is. Neither of us are perfect but we are great together and I thank God every day I know him.
-
Whew! I feel that I have been emotionally stuck for over a decade and a half, and now things are happening so fast the last two days that I can literally feel the pressure in my head. First, to acknowledge some of your recent posts...
Bunny and serena, thanks for your compassionate posts. I think that I haven't felt compassion in so long, I'd forgotten it truly existed anymore. I agree that there is something holding me back from ending my marriage. I don't know exactly what it is yet, but am getting a better idea every day.
Bunny, you asked if I'd had therapy. Yes, individual and group for 7 years. The immediate diagnosis was moderate major depression, but see below for more on that.... Therapy definitely helped, but since S would not participate, I had no way to really address my relationship issues at the time. And in hindsight, I probably wasn't ready then anyway.
Sunnie, you suggested dissociative disorder, but that doesn't really ring true, see below for more...
Guest who suggested "Tears and Healing". Thank you so much. I've ordered the book after reading the excerpts. I think it's exactly what I need right now.
bkkabri. I have been reading your posts on some of these other threads. Hang in there until you figure out which way you want to go. Not to diminish you pain one bit, but it could have been worse. You could have married someone who is violently opposed to personal growth and not realized it until afterwards, and then gone into denial yourself for many years. Trust me, it's something I wouldn't wish on anyone in the world. But, I always look on the bright side, that there's always someone worse off than me out there and there but for the grace of God go I. :shock:
Guest and serena about me being a father. I don't feel like I've done a very good job. I've been so stuck in my own stuff that I haven't been there for my daughter the way I really have wanted to be. I've been working on that more recently by spending more time alone with her and talking about some deeper subjects when they come up. She's 16 and pretty mature in a lot of ways for her age, and not so mature in others. She's human too! I think my daughter is the neatest person I know and am completely amazed by her. I try to make sure that I let her know that on a regular basis now.
On the other hand, part of why I stayed in the past was to protect her from her mother. S's mother forced her to be a certain way and S tried to pass that to our daughter. When S would devalue my daughter's feelings or thoughts (after my daughter came and shared them openly with us, how great is that!), I would tell my daughter that I had some of the same feelings/thoughts, or that everyone is unique and has their own feelings and isn't that great. S stopped doing those things after a few years, in front of me at least. I did find out during this last year that S had told my daughter that since she didn't feel comfortable talking with me, that if my daughter didn't feel comfortable talking with me, she didn't have to. Ouch, no wonder there had been more distance between my daughter and I than I liked. When I talked with my daughter about this, she had no problem talking with me, and once it was out in the open, we have been a lot closer. I could go on more in this vein, since I've realized that I still have a lot of anger toward S for interfering and sabotaging the relationship between my daughter and I. She would get in the way and insist on acting as a go between when there was any conflict between my daughter and I. I finally told her to butt out and that if she had any caring for, or wanted it to look like she cared about our daughter, she needed to let us work things out between us. Turns out that's been no problem at all, S was creating all the problems based on her fears of her own past. Well, that's a rant for you....
For just about everyone who posted, I have only just gotten started looking for the love of my life. While it is remotely possible it is the person I am married to, I really doubt it. Most of the feelings of being soulmates while we were dating were based on her lying that she agree 100% with whatever I said. I have realized that one thing which has kept me here is the hope that if I can work my issues out, then so can she. However, my preferred method for working things out these days is awareness and hard work. Form what I have seen, hers is still heavy denial. I think my way has a better chance of success. Another thing which has kept me in this situation (technically marriage) is the fear of what she will do when divorcing. If she was that nasty when we were married and she was "trying" then what will it be like. Not an excuse, I know.
Alright onto the latest news. While surfing the internet, I have run across two things that fit me to a T.
Avoidant Personality Disorder. I don't know how I missed this in the past. I'm sure I must have seen this information before, but maybe just wasn't ready for it. Have you had the experience where you "discover" something only to find that you knew about it years ago, but just didn't really pay any attention to it at the time? Anyway, this fits so much it's scary.
My parents never, ever talked about their feelings. At least not whenever I was around. They also never, ever supported my feelings. Even as a kid, I was to scared to meet people, like guests they sometimes had in. They didn't really talk about it, but I think others made comments like "Oh, he's shy." When I tried to talk to them about being bullied at school, I usually got something like "you'll have to figure out a way to deal with it." I got no emotional/social teaching, no examples or demonstrations and no support. I literally believed that I was an alien who did not belong on this planet. The kind of world that I pictured from my parents made no sense to me at all. Here I was, a little kid of 6-8 when I was trying to figure all this out, with no help at all from my parents.
My father was so nonexistant that it was like he wasn't there even when he was physically home. I remember my mother being angry and critical most of the time. Basically, my therapist said that he believed they were both clinically depressed. My dad the more typical withdrawn type, and my mother depressed with anxiety.
I have a pretty good relationship with my parents now (after counseling), but we still can't really talk about what things were like back then. The only thing my mother will say is that "You wouldn't let us hold you." At this point I can't imagine parents not wanting to hold and love their baby. I'm still not sure whether what she says is true, or if its guilt/justification. It is easy for me to picture her being too wrapped up in her own pain to even notice me, let alone have the energy to soothe me. If it is true that I didn't want them to hold me, then I wonder whether it could have been a touch of something like Asperger's, or if I was aware enough on some level to know that my parents weren't safe to be around. I remember one time when I must have been around 2 years old, going into their room and asking to get up in bed with them. I remeber them saying no, and telling me to go back to my room. Now, I'm sure that it was early on a weekend morning, but still, I have a hard time understanding that. I was doing my best to express that I felt lonely and needed comfort and got nothing. On the way back to my room I got a chair, pulled it up to the closet, and pulled down a soft blanket and took that back to my room with me. That became my security blanket for quite a few years. I don't remember asking my parents for that kind of emotional support again until I was a teenager. It didn't really happen then, either. OK, the censor part of my brain is telling me that this is too long and depressing, but I'm deliberately ignoring it for now.
The other thing I found was HSP, Highly Sensitive Person. This is pretty new, and not established in official therapy circles or the DSM guide. Basically, it says that everyone has different sensitivity to stimulus from a biological perspective. Some of us are more sensitive. I remember as a little child my parents taking me to a high school baskteball in the old style gymnasium. I remember putting my hands over my ears and telling them over and over agian that it was too loud, until we left early. It's still like that today. Where some people go to the crowded club with the flashing lights and the loud music and find it exciting, I feel like I'm in a horror movie, where there's nowhere to turn and something jumping out at me everywhere I go.
Of course, by the time I got to school, I was bullied a lot. I felt overwhelmed as it was. Of course, I reacted when I got bullied. Basically, my face would turn bright red when I got angry. I couldn't understand why those kids wouldn't leave me alone. After all, I just wanted to be their friend. The teachers told me that it took two to tango and that I must be causing them to bully me. Argh! They told me to not react. In otherwords, suppress your feelings so your face doesn't turn red when you are angry. Even though it wasn't a conscious action, I unfortunately did find a way to supress my feelings. It took the first almost 2 years of therapy before I could really just talk. Before that it was like trying to talk through the eye of a needle.
I remember telling my therapist that I felt like I was more sensitive and couldn't shut things out very well, that I was distracted and disrupted by things more than other people. He just brushed it off and said that he didn't think I was more sensitive than anyone else. I think more than ever that there is something to it. HSP is correlated to shyness and introversion, but not directly lcaused/causal.
I think that I developed the ability to hyperfocus to compensate for all the stimulus that I get. I can watch TV and not even hear what my wife says. Ok, Ok, maybe that's a man thing. :D Serisously though, when I concentrate that way, I lose track of everything else around me, including my sense of time passing. You have to get my attention first, or I won't hear a word you say. In fact, I wouldn't even notice that you had come into the room. I can sing one song while another plays on the radio without a problem. I think this hyperfocus is the primary thing that has allowed me to be successful in school and at work. When in that state, I literally don't experience anything else. Funny, I guess that's my own form of denial, to not experience it in the first place. Anyway, the down sides of this hyperfocus are that I'm not aware of myself physically or emotionally. I get neck and headaches from sitting in one position for hours. I obviously am not connected with anyone else, even in a mental/emotional connection way during this time. Also, it's exhausting and I can't keep it up forever. When I stop, then everything seems to come crashing back in and it's hard to cope again. In the meantime, I haven't been even remotely emotionally connected with myself or others. I've really come to see the downsides of this and have been thinking about changing careers to something more people oriented that won't require that level of focus.
This HSP seems so familiar to me and makes so much sense. Between being more sensitive than average to my environment, coupled with an emotionally neglectful environment, coupled with getting bullied at school, would leave me in a state not really believing that true intimacy is possible. In fact, I still unconsciously believe that people are basically out to get me and noone cares enough to stand up for me. Throw in my poor choice of spouses and it's no wonder I am where I am today. Sheesh!
longtire
-
Thank you for bearing with my huge posts. I start out just wanting to say a little and then all of this stuff just pours out. I think that I have been without a real outlet for so long, all of this pressure has built up. I could really write a long posts if I included everything, but maybe I'll save some for someone special when I find her. :wink:
longtire
-
longtire,
You can post as lengthily as you want. No problema. I don't write long posts because it's not how I'm hardwired. But I can read them. Please don't save your words for 'someone special.' For one thing, you're married so you aren't available for a girlfriend. It's not even in the cards at the moment.
I don't think couples therapy would be beneficial. Your wife's problems are extremely hardcore and not available to therapeutic intervention. But you can be helped. It's not really about her, it's about you.
It sounds like your childhood was nightmarish with absolutely no refuge anywhere. That is tragic, horrific, and upsetting to even read about. I wish it hadn't happened like that. Fortunately, you're a loving father and aren't repeating the cycle of emotional neglect. Your parents sound kind of "schizoid" (not schizophrenic) which means, emotionally detached to the point where there is little or no human connection possible. When your mother said you couldn't be held, I think she was projecting her own inability to hold a baby due to her emotional deadness. Anyway it was very bad news for a baby and you didn't deserve it.
In fact, I still unconsciously believe that people are basically out to get me and noone cares enough to stand up for me. Throw in my poor choice of spouses and it's no wonder I am where I am today. Sheesh
Your choice of spouse happened because of this. With a good therapist (someone who is very smart and on the ball), you could turn this around for the most part. I'm glad you see this about yourself because I think it's highly significant.
bunny
-
thanks for responding. I have come to the realization that no matter what I did it was never going to be good enough. I guess why I still feel empty inside is because she really did a number on my self esteem. I have been on dates with friends that have known me for years and they see the change in my personality. I feel bad inside because I thought the things I was doing to make our relationship strong were proper and in a loving way. I feel like its the closeness I tried to share with her is what drove her away. Every sincere thought or attempt was paid back in rude and unusual way. I just wished I understood why she was alright the first year and then drifted away. I am an educated man, but I am new to a woman freaking out on me and telling me I am a bad human being because I dont make enough to satisfy her since she got a raise, and that I dont want to sit home everynight and talk about patient loads. I wish she missed me. I miss her. I miss the one who was into what I was into. I wish I understood why she would use me. Why not date 10 guys a week rather than "act" like you loved me. My biggest fear is that I will never believe in a woman who may actually love me for me and I dont give my heart to her because I dont want to be stomped on again.
-
I can't seem to stick to one topic for very long, so I'll keep posting here until I can. :D
Bunny, thanks for your kind words again. When I tell people about my childhood (group therapy, here) they react much more stongly than I do. I hear people tell their own story and think that it is so much worse than mine that I'm grateful!?! that what happened to me wasn't worse. I have to remind myself that what happened to me, that I categorize as basically neglecful, was obviously bad enough since it has affect my life so much. I'm starting to realize that this is a part of my neurotic, co-depedent traits to take the blame or responsilbility for things and let others off the hook by minimizing either my suffereing or their responsibility.
Sine we are still nominally together, in couples counseling my wife and I agreed to set a monthly budget for each of us, so that we (I) can be sure there is enough money left to get what we need. We both already do our own gorcery shopping, cooking, etc. and have different ideas about what is required vs. "would like to have" spending. She wanted to leave spending for things around the house open, and I wanted to have an agreement about it. When the counselor asked my what was important about that for me, I said that it had been my experience that my wife spent a lot of money a little bit at a time and often justified by saying it was a household necessity. In many cases the things she would get were things only she wanted like knick-knacks, bath and body supplies for herself, etc. Well, my wife got very angry and has stayed that way ever since. She said that it is not her experience that those things happened and that she's angry that I'm still living in the past. You see, she claims that she has changed and everything is different now.
However, I was having a great day yesterday morning. I got up rode my bicycle for the first time in a while and felt great afterwards. However, when she came back, I immediately felt an air of anger and hostility. I realize that this is almost always present with her and one reason I like it so much when she is gone. I retreat to my "playroom" almost every day. I used to blame myself for this. I'm starting to realize that yes, my sensitivity and Avoidance play a part there, but given the choice nobody else would want to be out with a person creating such a hostile atmosphere either. Maybe it's not entirely my fault after all... Anyway that explains why I often have trouble falling asleep, I'm making myself vulnerable to someone who is like a child in an adults body. If they get angry they can do very destructive things. If I'm not comfortable around her when I'm awake and alert during the day, how can I be comfortable being right next to her in bed, vulnerable and asleep. Of course, she almost never has problems sleeping.
Anyway the counselor goes along with this to quite an extent and has told me that I am holding my wife in the past and not seeing her for the person she is now. I still see someone who finds any excuse, almost always me, to avoid having adults discussion and agreement about things like finances, household responsibilities, etc. I still see wwomeone who acts like a 6 year old, doesn't take responsibility for their feelings and actions and despite claiming that they want to have an intimiate realtionship, has never (I mean never, I'm careful with that word) been able to discuss physical intimacy or sex between us. I've ask, boy have I asked. She claims that she is ready to discuss it anytime, but every time I bring it up, she is mad with me about something and can't do it right then.
So I ask yesterday morning if she has time to discuss the finances and she goes to the other room and brings back a sheet of paper. This has a list of different types of expenses but no money attached. Down at the bottom, she has a few numbers added up that come to $200-300 more than what we were discussing in counseling. She said something like figure out what you think and let me know. So much for her being ready to have mature adult relationships. This entire time she is exuding waves of hostility. I get the strong feeling that she is waiting for an apology (I would have apologized to keep the peace in the past) before "being ready" to act like a responsilbe adult. However, I no longer see a need to apologize to her for having a different experience, and a different viewpoint, and expressing that safely in words to her.
all for now,
longtire
-
longtire,
She can't be an adult. It's not going to happen. This is what you're forgiving her for.
Does this therapist understand that talking about budgets is not going to work? I am a bit baffled that the therapist is dealing with you at this level.
You may be holding the past against her. But she doesn't sound too great right now. Maybe you don't need evidence from the past to bolster your case. You have evidence from today.
Re: your childhood. Others are far more horrified by your childhood than you are because your terror, loneliness, heartache, etc., is being projected into us rather than processing it yourself. I can understand the reason, it's too much to deal with on your own.
Are you in individual therapy?
bunny
-
P.S. Good for you for not apologizing to her.
-
I can't even grasp what it must be like to live in an emotional vacuum. Having said that, I realise that there are plenty of NEGATIVE emotions from your wife and not one single positive one.
If you are in a position to provide financially for yourself and her, I would leave.... You should make it of paramount importance to maintain a healthy, loving relationship with your daughter and try to exclude her from the 'mess' divorce brings - not easy I know!!
You may have to deal with loneliness but how much worse could it be than to be on the receiving end of so much stress?
I'm surprised a) you are still sane and b) still there!!
Get out, stay in individual therapy, give yourself time to heal and then move on to a healthier and much more fulfilling life.
-
Ok, so when I get beck from church this morning, my wife has shifted back to her good side. I already had a budget for my own sanity, I extended it with several things from her list that I had forgotten and we were able to agree on this budget. Now, I'll have to wait and see if it holds. :?
I think that's one reason I have such a hard time really forming an opinion on her, she changes so quickly, I can't keep up. Then it either looks like I'm caring about an angry, selfish child, or I'm angry with an innocent, cooperative adult. The thing that scares me is where did that anger go? Did she really find a way to release it? I don't think so, because I was not involved in any way with the release. I would expect most people to either decide it wasn't worth it and give it up, or to confront me with it and let me know how they feel. With our history, I assume it's going into the passive-aggressive store for when all this divorce talk is over and things go back to "normal."
Re: your childhood. Others are far more horrified by your childhood than you are because your terror, loneliness, heartache, etc., is being projected into us rather than processing it yourself. I can understand the reason, it's too much to deal with on your own.
Are you in individual therapy?
I think you hit the heart of the problem for me. I've either been at home with my parents or dating/engaged/married my wife my entire life. This seems "normal" to me, even though it is extremely painful and tiring. I'm not in individual therapy at this time, but am strongly considering it again. I've been considering it again for some time now, but felt that I was having so much change, it was all I could stand. I'm starting to see that it needs to be the "right" changes in the "right" direction, whatever that is. I've been reading a lot this past week on this site, suggested in another thread here:
http://www.guidetopsychology.com/index.html
It backs up what you've been saying bunny, serena, and others. It also dscribes the different goals and methods between counseling and therapy. Basically, counseling is teaching techniques to help better adapt to a particular social situation, like work, or marriage. Therapy is to get down to the core issues, bring them to light, and suggest new ways of dealing with them. I originally agreed to counseling because it was the only thing my wife had been willing to do. However, I have believed all along that therapy would do more for our situation. One of the counselor's concerns is that adding individual thaerapy would take the focus off the counseling and diffuse the energy and effectiveness of the counseling. So far, I haven't seen that the counseling has been all that successful, so I'm not against a change, though I'm betting my wife's defenses will kick in against that.
At first, I believed that I had dealt with most of my issues in my prior therapy and that it was only my wife who needed therapy now. I see now that I took some huge steps in therapy, but haven't resolved all my major issues at all. To be honest, I don't think I could have done more therapy at that time. I think I needed the time to digest, practice, and understand what I got from it. With the major revelations I've been having recently, it's clear that I have a lot more work to do. It sure would be great if the therapist could help point out where my understanding diverges from "normal." BTW, bunny, could you say more about my projecting onto you? What does that look, sound, feel like? I don't disagree with you, it's just hard for me to recognize. Thanks.
I'm trying to decide whether to go back to my previous therapist or find a new one. My previous therapist knows my history, though that was several years ago now, I might have to remind him! A ner person would give me a chance to tell my story from the begining again and might be able to suggest things that my previous therapist missed. Has anyone done therapy with multiple therapists? What was your experience with this?
I'm surprised a) you are still sane and b) still there!!
a is definitely up in the air at the moment, but b is true. :) I hope you understand, that while it may seem clear to you that I need to leave, I want to make this decision from a place of understanding and clarity. In other words, I don't want just change my mistakes, I want to choose a new path. I may end up leaving and you may be absolutely right, but I need to make sure that, I am making a good, aware decision for a change. In other (shorter) words, I'll make my own decision in my own time, but please don't go. I get a lot of support and new understanding from your feedback. Thanks!
-
longtire
Reading your post rang with me.
but I want to know why I'm leaving, how I feel about things, and why I expect to get my needs met by leaving, so that I can make the decision to leave with confidence. I don't consider this self-sabotage, but want to have awareness of my reasons to make sure that I am not simply blaming outside sources for my problems, and refusing to consider, and most importantly, change my own contributions to the problem, so it doesn't happen again. For example, I chose this kind of relationship once in my life. I want to be confident that I now know some of the signs, am better able to recognize it and can avoid it in the future. Otherwise, I expect that I would keep repeating the same pattern with the same results. Where's the hope in that? I want to make changes in my life so I am naturally attracted to healthy people and situations, rather than what has been a pattern in my life until now of accepting unhealthy people in my life
I see along with this post and from your last post you have the same direction as Im taking on a marriage of 26 yrs and a 12 yr old girl.
My N-Husband and I have been together for so long, and now being faced with the Idea that your dreams are being toyed with by an( N=6 yr old).
You can't always deal with them on an adult level, the money Issuies are being left in the hands of a mental child.
Your daily struggles are on an emotional rollercoaster any time the
(N-6 yr old) decides to put you on for a ride, you didnt think you bought a ticket for.
You may have decided you could handle all of this, because you adapt all the time. You know you will find a reason why you found yourself where you are. You will grow and move on. You will find the right time to see yourself with the strength to move forward.
Maybe you know you are safe where you are because you don't know if you leave what Hell your wife is going to cause you. Staying where you are gives you some control over your live as you know it now.
You don't know what your daughter will be dealing with if you aren't there to protect her. Losing that control is worth spending the time to move with caution.
Being a co-dependant like myself maybe there are things you are well aware of, you do. Have you made some changes?
Has the changes made you able to see that you were cherry picked by someone who knew you would always do the right thing, even when the right thing was not the best thing.
You know if the shoe was on the other foot, she may not do the right thing. I know people get divorced all the time without trying to fix why they would fall into the N-Trap.
I think after 26yrs/ or 17 yrs we may be somewhat of an expert on what to look for in an N.
I do want to deal with my own issuies like being co-dependant, but if you have been to a therapist and still not sure your ready to move on, is it more of a procrastination?
Maybe there will be no resolve with your own reasons why you stay because you fear what hell you will have to face in a divorce with all of the family, your wife and daughter.
The whole N Idea is not going to go away. Im afraid too, and bullys are always going to be there. I like knowing that my daughter looks to me to protect her, I tell myself I am just learning about myself too and will remove myself when I know how to block out how I get sucked into staying with my N.
My prayers are with you that the strength you seek will come.
onlyrenting
-
I think that's one reason I have such a hard time really forming an opinion on her, she changes so quickly, I can't keep up. Then it either looks like I'm caring about an angry, selfish child, or I'm angry with an innocent, cooperative adult. The thing that scares me is where did that anger go? Did she really find a way to release it?
Has anyone told you about 'splitting'? Have you read about borderline personality? If you haven't, it would be quite eye-opening. You will understand everything. Try bpdcentral.com.
One of the counselor's concerns is that adding individual thaerapy would take the focus off the counseling and diffuse the energy and effectiveness of the counseling.
This makes no sense. It's quite common to be in both individual and couples therapy. It helps! This diffusing the energy stuff is, imo, ridiculous.
BTW, bunny, could you say more about my projecting onto you? What does that look, sound, feel like? I don't disagree with you, it's just hard for me to recognize. Thanks.
It feels extremely sad, lonely, angry, shameful and despairing. Some of that is my own stuff being triggered. But some of it belongs to you, imo.
I'm trying to decide whether to go back to my previous therapist or find a new one. My previous therapist knows my history, though that was several years ago now, I might have to remind him! A ner person would give me a chance to tell my story from the begining again and might be able to suggest things that my previous therapist missed. Has anyone done therapy with multiple therapists? What was your experience with this?
Just get a good therapist. Either your former one, or a new one. The most important thing is a GOOD therapist. Not a lame one.
I want to make this decision from a place of understanding and clarity.
This is like an alcoholic saying he'll quit drinking only after he understands why he's an alcoholic. But understanding and clarity will only happen when the alcoholic is sober. With that said, you will leave only when you're ready to give up certain things you're getting right now.
bunny
-
Arghh... (sometimes I don't even know what to say!)
I just came from a very frustrating joint counseling session. We were discussing where we are right now in our "relationship" and whether we are willing to continue. We both basically said that we don't see any way to work things out. I added that it didn't mean things couldn't work out, just that I can't see it right now.
The counselor asked the main question we are trying to answer right now which is whether each of us wants to have a good/healthy/fulfilling/happy relationship with the other. Of course my wife said yes. I'm very ambivalent and have been for some time about that. I stated again that what I most want in a relationship is to have someone I can talk with who is their own person, responsible for their own life, etc. I said that I am going on my gut feel (not anyone else's anymore) and that I do not believe that my wife is in a place where she is actually willing to do what would be needed to have that relationship she claims to want.
I said that I need to hear more about how my wife claims to be changed now. My wife jumped in that I was denying all of her progress and that I was claiming that nothing had changed. What I need to hear is more of the aha moment/realization/lightbulb/realization that feelings are different from her to be able to believe in the changes she is claiming to have made without just taking her (very damaged) word for it.
I started by pointing out that in one of our talks late last year, my wife stated to me that she hated talking with me and that it was the hardest thing for her to do because it reminded her of being harangued and brainwashed by her mom. She broke in and said that is not true. I have been willing to talk with longtire for years and have longed for it, but he just won't do it! Well that really pushed my buttons and led me to feel abused all over again. She has never to me or in my hearing before claimed that what she really wants is to have this deep talking relationship. On the other hand, I have been saying that since before we got married.
When I pointed out that I had heard the exact opposite and that it makes it impossible to trust my wife because of the directly conflicting messages, the discussion once again devolved to how I am not allowing my wife to do the things I am asking for and that she just can't do it if I'm angry. Despite disagreeing with this viewpoint, all my doubts and self-abuse came crashing back. I started questioning if I am sane or really have any connection to reality. Yuck! Yuck! Bleagh!
The good news is that within 1/2 and hour after the session I had already retraced my steps and come back to the same conclusions that I can only trust my own experience, not live by someone else's. That my wife is the one with a childhood background and history in denial, not me. If anything I am way too neurotic and beat myself up way before blaming someone else for my issues and behavior.
Also, during the session my wife clamied to be making a lot of progress in healing her own issues. The only one I'm aware if facing fears of how she would take care of herself when we break up. I'm not saying that she hasn't made progress in the past several months, just that I have not seen it in her behavior or heard anything about it.
I hate how easily I fell back into those bad habits of questioning myself. Not my experience, perceptions, etc. but myself. I also hate that I got angry and was cursing again. I really do not like feeling out of control like that. All that I have been learning over the past several weeks/months just flew out the window for a time. I am grateful that I was able to get back to a "place" where I am able to remember it again.
This is my first really major backslide since I sort of awakened. Even though I knew it would happen, I really, really hate it! :x
I'll be back in a bit. Thanks for letting me spew that out.
-
longtire,
What does your therapist do to help you through these difficult sessions? And can you call her right now?
bunny
-
Bunny,
She (the counselor) is the one saying that I am holding my wife in that place and that since I am angry there is nothing that my wife can do to break through. The problem is, that I wouldn't be angry if she (my wife) were able to talk openly with me in the first place. Then there wouldn't be a need to lie about it anyway. I really, truly want her to talk openly and honestly with me. I just don't know what else to do but bring it up and talk about it, but what I am getting back is that I'm preventing her from doing that by getting angry when she doesn't do it and then lies about it.
I talked about this with the counselor in a 1-on-1 session and she said that she was not pointing the finger solely at me intentionally as any part of a technique or therapeutic process and to point it out to her if I thought I saw it happen again. The thing I am most upset about today is that I got so enmeshed that I wasn't able to step back and point this out at the time. Maybe next time...
The thing I have not been able to do is accept my wife's stated experience as being a valid experience when what she says so oppositely contradicts my experience. I am NOT talking about having a different understanding, different feelings, thoughts, beliefs. I'm talking about denying that such a thing ever occurred so we can't talk about it and the fact that I brought it up proves that it's all longtire's fault after all.
When this happens, it just comes out of left field and feels like it smacks me in the face. In hindsight, I'm surprised that I don't expect it to happen MORE than I do. Actually, I feel a lot better realizing that. I'm actually NOT going around looking at every word my wife says ready for a lie. If I were, I don't think it would be such an emothional and physical shock when it does happen.
Bunny, if anyone deserves to say "I told you so" it is you. I feel like a little kid who's been told the stove is hot, but just has to touch it themselves to find out. :oops:
-
You might thing from reading the last couple of my posts that everything is awful. Actually I've had a lot of good things happening in my life the last week or two.
I've found the resolve to face my memories and feelings from the past more. This hasn't been happening all the time, but I'm getting a lot better at recognizing when I have an emotion or body feeling that isn't about the present. I've been welcoming the feelings in and just letting myself feel them.
I've been practicing being more assertive and less avoidant by being clear when expressing how I feel or what I think. It's been freeing to turn off my censor, or at least ignore it for a bit, and say what's really on my mind instead of hedging the way I phrase it.
I've been exploring sprituality which has really changed my viewpoint on many issues and brought me a lot of peace.
Also, I found a recovery bill of rights at havoca.org and have been looking at it to remind myself when I start to question myself and my worth. Here it is:
A Recovery Bill of Rights
for Trauma Survivors
As a Matter of Personal AUTHORITY, You Have the Right...
* to manage your life according to your own values and judgment.
* to direct your recovery, answerable to no one for your goals, effort, or progress.
* to gather information to make intelligent decisions about your recovery.
* to seek help from a variety of sources, unhindered by demands for exclusivity.
* to decline help from anyone without having to justify the decision.
* to have faith in your powers of self restoration -- and to seek allies who share it.
* to trust allies in healing as much as any adult can trust another, but no more.
* to be afraid and to avoid what frightens you.
* to decide for yourself whether, when, and where to confront your fear.
* to learn by experimenting, that is, to make mistakes.
For the Preservation of Personal BOUNDARIES, You Have the Right...
* to be touched only with your permission, and only in ways that are comfortable.
* to choose to speak or remain silent, about any topic or at any moment.
* to choose to accept or decline feedback, suggestions, or interpretations.
* to ask for help in healing, without having to accept help with work, play, or love.
* to challenge any crossing of your boundaries.
* to take appropriate action to end any trespass that does not cease when challenged.
In the Sphere of Personal COMMUNICATION, You Have the Right...
* to ask for explanation of communications you do not understand.
* to express a contrary view when you do understand and you disagree.
* to acknowledge your feelings, without having to justify them as assertions of fact or actions affecting others.
* to ask for changes when your needs are not being met.
* to speak of your experience, with respect for your doubts and uncertainties.
* to resolve doubt without deferring to the views or wishes of anyone.
Specific to the DOMAIN of Psychotherapy, You Have the Right...
* to hire a therapist or counselor as coach, not boss, of your recovery.
* to receive expert and faithful assistance in healing from your therapist.
* to be assured that your therapist will refuse to engage in any other relationship with you -- business, social, or sexual -- for life.
* to be secure against revelation of anything you have disclosed to your therapist, unless a court of law commands it.
* to have your therapist's undivided loyalty in relation to any and all perpetrators, abusers, or oppressors.
* to receive informative answers to questions about your condition, your hopes for recovery, the goals and methods of treatment, the therapist's qualifications.
* to have a strong interest by your therapist in your safety, with a readiness to use all legal means to neutralize an imminent threat to your life or someone else's.
* to have your therapist's commitment to you not depend on your "good behaviour," unless criminal activity or ongoing threats to safety are involved.
* to know reliably the times of sessions and of your therapist's availability, including, if you so desire, a commitment to work together for a set term.
* to telephone your therapist between regular scheduled sessions, in urgent need, and have the call returned within a reasonable time.
* to be taught skills that lessen risk of trauma:
(a) containment (reliable temporal/spatial boundaries for recovery work);
(b) systematic relaxation;
(c) control of attention and imagery (through trance or other techniques).
* to reasonable physical comfort during sessions.
-
In exploring why I am still in this relationship (beside the general reasons someone stays in an unhealthy relationship too long), I wrote down all the reasons that it felt like I needed to stay with my wife and then responded to them from a responsible, adult point of view.
Why I tell myself I have to stay with "S," 01/30/05
...and my conscious responses
* I can't take care of myself physically, I'll die without her.
S has not supported me physically, verbally, emotionally, or financially. I am likely to better off in each area without S.
*I can't take care of myself emotionally, I won't survive the stress of the divorce.
Ditto! Also, without the stress of single-handedly trying to make the situation work, I will be much better able to take emotional care of myself and my daughter.
*I can protect my daughter from S's emotional abuse while I'm here.
True, but the hostility and distance in our house are hurtful to my daughter no matter what. I can't protect her from that while it's still going on.
* S will hurt my duaghter as a way to punish me during the divorce.
She may. I can talk with my daughter to let her know what's going on and support her. I can also confront S and our let our parents know what's happening so they can support my daughter too.
* My daughter can't grow up healthy unless she has both parents together in the same house.
My daughter cannot grow up healthy in a sick household.
* My daughter will not be able to continue to go to the same high school.
She may not. I will do all I can to make sure that she does. I will trust God for the rest.
* My daughter will not have enough money to go to college because S will spend it all.
I will do what I can to get my daughter the best education she can. I'm sure that my parents and other family would help. I trust God for the rest.
* Everyone will believe S and no one will believe that she verbally and emotionally abused me.
So far, almost everyone I've told believes me and supports me in doing whatever I need to do, even if it hurts them. My parents have told me that they will stick by me no matter what.
* My family will abandon me and side with S.
See above.
* I'll lose all my friends.
If I do, they weren't really my friends to begin with, were they?
* It is a sin to divorce and God will punish me.
I'm sure that God doesn't like divorce. I believe that he will forgive me if I ask him to. I believe that God doesn't want me to suffer and that this hurt is not his will for me.
* I won't be welcome in church anymore.
If not, then it's not a very good church, is it?
* I won't be able to find the strength to have another relationship.
I don't have the strength to continue this one as it has gone so far. I am stronger every day, and with God's guidance I can find a healthy relationship that builds me up instead of tears me down.
* I'll never meet anyone else.
There are many women out there who are caring, loving people. I can meet them everywhere I go.
* I'm too introverted and avoidant to make friends or meet someone else.
With God's help, I will face my feelings and beliefs and be transformed. I will not live out of fear and doubt, I will live out of joy and peace.
* I'll be damaged by not keeping my commitment to stay and no one else will ever want to be with me.
I will face my guilt and shame over divorcing and work through my other issues as well. I will walk with God and be open so that others can see the true me. I don't need anyone else to make me whole, but I can still choose to share my time and my life with someone in joy.
* S will lie and financially hurt me in a divorce.
She may. If I stay I give her the power to do that to me every day.
* I will lose the house.
I may. God will take care of me.
* I will lose all of my money and possessions.
Not likely, but if I did God would provide all I need.
* I have more control over finances being married to S.
I have less control, since control has to be shared. A divorce order might specify child support and maintenance for a few years, but after that I have all the control.
* I tell myself we are on the verge of a breakthrough.
I have told myself that for 17 years and it has never happened yet.
* Maybe S means it this time and will really improve.
Ditto! S is still not doing these things today.
* I will disappoint and hurt my daughter.
I may. I can talk to her about it and console her. I can let her know that I love her and will always be there to care for her.
* I will disappoint and hurt my parents.
They may be hurt, but they are adults and are responsible for themselves. They have already told me that they will be there for me no matter what.
* I will disappoint and hurt a good friend.
I may. I can apologize to her for the hurt and never use her to get back at S.
* I will disappoint and hurt the rest of my family.
I may. It is my life and I have to make the best decisions I can for myself and my daughter.
* I will disappoint and hurt S's family.
Ditto!
What ways do you talk back to the negative voices that say mean things to you?
-
I haven't been making time to post here regularly. I feel a lot better when I share these things with other people. If you've waded through my previous posts I think you'll appreciate this.
My daughter broke up with her boyfriend of over a year the other day. She asked if she and I could go out to eat that night and so we did. We have been having a lot of talks out at dinner over the last year, so that is a common thing.
Over dinner she told me how she had been feeling unhappy with her relationship with her boyfriend recently and made the decision to break up after talking a lot with her friends.
She had asked her boyfriend to be more affectionate, but he wasn't able to follow through. She said that she didn't know what else to do, but that since she wasn't happy, she knew it wasn't working out and that she needed to break up. Her boyfriend had been feeling that things were not working either and was basically expecting this. They talk for about an hour and agreed to remain friends.
I was so proud of her and told her so! I pointed out how that was a very mature way to handle the situation and that she had done all she could by clearly asking for what she wanted and needed and couldn't really do more to fix things. I pointed out how her boyfriend acted a lot like his father (goodnatured, but withdrawn) and that she would likely be drawn to people like that since that's the way her father is as well.
I love my daughter so much, and was so proud of her and they way she handles herself. I felt a little bad since she was doing as I say, but am having a hard time actually doing it myself in my own relationship with her mother.
We continued talking on the way home and when we walked in, my daughter said that she was so lucky to have me in her life to talk to and that she was blessed with parents who talk and support her. This was right in front of her mother, and I took a great deal of sadistic pleasure in having my daughter say something nice about me in front of her. :twisted:
Now if I can follow my daughter's good example...
-
She (the counselor) is the one saying that I am holding my wife in that place and that since I am angry there is nothing that my wife can do to break through.
Well, I'm kind of surprised that she said this without validating your anger. Sometimes a therapist has told me that my anger was not helping the situation at all -- but they could see why I was angry.
I talked about this with the counselor in a 1-on-1 session and she said that she was not pointing the finger solely at me intentionally as any part of a technique or therapeutic process and to point it out to her if I thought I saw it happen again. The thing I am most upset about today is that I got so enmeshed that I wasn't able to step back and point this out at the time. Maybe next time...
I wish you would call her and leave a phone message that she did this again but you were too traumatized in the session to point it out.
I don't want to say I told you so. I feel bad that you are suffering.
P.S. Good story about your daughter. You guys did something right.
bunny
-
Dear Longtire,
I have friends with sons and daughters of probably about the same age as yours, and I just want to tell you that for your daughter to be able to communicate so freely with you is an enormous compliment to you.You really must be a great Dad. Many grown-up children of that age would only be able to share their deepest feelings about their relationships with their friends, and not with a parent.
Please congratulate yourself on that,and try not to beat yourself up by feeling that you have been unable to act in the same way as your daughter did. You have a different history (with your wife,) you are working through your situation, and the future has yet to be written.
Sincerely,
Lara.
-
Bunny and Lara thank you for your support (and anyone else who is sending good feelings my way!). I did call and leave a message for the counselor. I think she is out some or all Friday's, I had a problem reaching her on a Friday once before. I'll let you know what comes of that.
My head knows and believes that I can only grow when there is struggle and discomfort, but my heart wants to have some peace and comfort for awhile. I'm taking a different tack now and continuing to work my stuff when I feel this way. The real trick is balancing the progress I make with getting enough peace and recharge. For me meditation and guided imagery seem to help the most. I haven't really found affirmations to be that helpful, but I'm going to try that some more with a different attitude from reading the affirmations thread...
-
longtire,
I'm glad you left a message with the counselor!
Even if a therapist is out of the office, they are supposed to check their messages all the time. That's part of their job. If she doesn't call back, I'm very disappointed in the level of service she's giving you. I hope she does.
bunny
-
My head knows and believes that I can only grow when there is struggle and discomfort, but my heart wants to have some peace and comfort for awhile.
I do not believe that growth only occurs during struggle and discomfort. That's not true.
bunny
-
Well, the counselor called back. My cell phone ringer was turned off, oops. :oops:
I told her that I was not able to articulate it during the session, but that I felt the same things were happening that I had spoken about with her before. Namely that I was being held responsible for S's lack of positive behavior and felt that S was able to spin the discussion out of control when I try to discuss what I want versus what I see and hear.
I told her that the thing that kicked me off balance was hearing S say "That didn't happen" again. The counselor said that she had been listening for that carefully since I discussed it with her last time and did NOT hear S say it yesterday. Of course, this leads me to question my sanity. I asked if she thought I was hallucinating and she said no, but suggested I might be hearing it because I expect to hear it from my experience with S in the past. The thing is, when it happens, I'm not consciously faring or expecting to happen. That's why it catches me off guard. It could be coming from my unconscious, but then I really am nuts if that's the case. Have you ever heard of anything like this?
Up until now I have only ever had S tell me that I am hearing and seeing things which did not happen. I could see how that could be one of several things:
1) It is happening and S is denying it. However, I would expect the counselor to notice as well, unless she got caught up in the denial somehow. I have to admit that doesn't seem very likely.
2) I am hallucinating or experiencing hearing it because I have a stong unconscious need that it fulfils. Protecting myself by creating a reason to distance myself where no conscious reason exists? That's a possiblility, but I have a hard time believing that too. I am open to the idea that this is something in me that only comes out in a more involved relationship. I'm usually very observant but have not noticed anything to lead me to believe that I'm seeing S's lips move and hearing her words without that being what she is really saying.
Anyway, the counselor asked if I would be OK if she brought in a tape recorder and recorded the next joint session. I said that I would actually be reassured by that. At least if it happens again, I will know whether I am crazy or not. I'm afraid that it will be one of those things that won't happen when the tape is rolling. Even if that's not the case though, we might be able to actually make more progress if the session doesn't get out of control like this last one.
I do have to admit though that in some sense it's a good sign that I stuck to my guns and did not give in and shut up during the rest of the session like I would have in the past.
-
I think taping sessions is a good idea... I also have experience of the 'it didn't happen syndrome'.........
You do feel you are going mad and it's a really horrible place to be. Luckily, people around me are aware of how sick my mother is. Those closest to her have a 'filter' internally for every sentence she emits. You have to listen, 'filter' it, and rationalise it. Thank God I can do this now.
-
I told her that I was not able to articulate it during the session, but that I felt the same things were happening that I had spoken about with her before. Namely that I was being held responsible for S's lack of positive behavior and felt that S was able to spin the discussion out of control when I try to discuss what I want versus what I see and hear.
GOOD.
I told her that the thing that kicked me off balance was hearing S say "That didn't happen" again. The counselor said that she had been listening for that carefully since I discussed it with her last time and did NOT hear S say it yesterday.
Yeah, that's happened to me too. The therapist adamantly says they didn't hear something I distinctly heard. :evil: Maybe you heard it, maybe not. The therapist isn't always right. The tape recording is a great idea.
Don't bother ruminating about hallucinations because it's not one. You heard something. Maybe you heard accurately, maybe not.
If the therapist is DEFENSIVE because you heard ONE SINGLE THING and she didn't, she's missing the point - which is that you felt blamed. I hope she addressed that!
bunny
-
As I was going through the checking account, I saw some things that didn't seem to meet the financial agreements that my wife and I had made recently. I told her that there were some financial items that I didn't understand and wanted to talk with her about them. She was leaving to do some errands and said alright.
She got back before I did and saw the account printout with the items highlighted that I wanted to talk about. When I got back she came to me and was obviously very angry. She told me that she had seen the printout and was very angry that I didn't trust her and was checking up on her. I told her that I had noticed these charges and wanted to check for misunderstandings between us. She said that she was mad since I had given her a committment to not expect past problems from her and felt that I had broken that agreement by not trusting her. I agreed that I do not trust her, and reiterated that I did not jump to conclusions, but wanted to find out what the situation was. She said again how mad she was and that she is tired of not being trusted and about ready to give it up. In the past this is the point I would have caved in. She told me that she knew that everything was explained, there were no problems and already had a list of the items in her hand.
It turns out there WERE 2 areas where we didn't have the same understanding, the date that this agreement went into effect and how my daughter's car loan (Bank of Mom & Dad :D) would be handled. She explained her handling of the loan (which I still don't understand, something about shuffling money back and forth) and said that it will be the way I understood the next time and from now on. She also explained that she had a different idea of the day that we started this and said that she would take those charges into account as well (angrily, of course).
All the while she was radiating anger and hatred like she often does. I never have to wonder whether she is angry or not, just what she's angry about. I was proud of how I kept my cool and was polite and rational in the face of this. It got my stomache churning in fear, but I held it together. As I write this, my stomache is feeling better. I think that I expect her to act on her anger. I wonder if that's because she believes that her words will be ignored, like they were with her mother growing up, and that she has to act out to be noticed? It's not acceptable, in any case.
That's all for now...
-
Hey, again, Longtire.
I must admit, I read this last post of yours first and then went back and read the first page. I had an interesting reaction. My ex used to go over every single penny I spent on the children, the house, the dogs...anything and then would read me the riot act. Mind you I parented full time and worked full time. The money he spent was never a concern for him. I was not frivolous with money. It was a matter of control for him. He was (and is) extremely controlling. I actually had a vision of myself freezing up outside and boiling with rage inside (as was the case for me) when you mentioned the printout (there's that senience again). I could not express this to him, but unlike you, he never wanted to know what "was wrong".
Now after reading your first post and others on this site, you seem like a nice enough guy. My second husband (yeah, I'm matrimonially challenged!) used to say (regarding divorces): " there is his side and her side and somewhere in between lies the truth". Well, he is my EX also, and he said a lot of soliloquies over and over and over (alcohol and a career on the stage will do that to a person), but I always thought about that one, especially after we broke up. It sounds like a cute quip (he had about 20) but really, I think TRUTH is personal. Who is to say what is true?
If it is true for you, then it is. YOU get to decide.
The whole thing about the counselor and what was said and not said....god, that sounded familiar! I hated that....my first husband would argue who said and didn't say what just to argue....(he loved to fight)
Aren't you sick of counting and measuring and thinking and obsessing and working and working at LOVE?
In my opinion, it ultimately does not matter who is right or who is wrong.
Right and wrong do nothing for a person....their ego, maybe, but not for the soul.
What do you want? How do you want to feel?
Let that and only that be your guide. The rest will follow. Let go. Let it be. There WILL be an answer....(thanks John Lennon)
-
Sorry, typo: the word is sentience (feeling).
-
longtire,
It sounds like you and your wife finally negotiated something together although it was difficult.
If she is hateful and enraged that is okay. Don't think about it in fact. It's better if you let her process it and don't try to analyze it. She needs to deal with her anger without you. You just make it worse.
I can understand her hurt feelings and shame when it looked like you were "scolding and correcting" her with the yellow highlighting. She probably related it to very harsh, punitive authority figures in the past. We can understand it but not cater to it.
On your side, I hope you weren't all controlling and parental. I hope you were just trying to straighten things out without blame. It sounds like you held your boundaries which is very important.
bunny
-
it was Paul McCartney who sang/wrote Let it be :D
Don't you just hate people who need to correct people :?
-
Not at all...I don't hate people who correct me....I say "thank you!"
It's all good!
-
replies below....
I must admit, I read this last post of yours first and then went back and read the first page. I had an interesting reaction. My ex used to go over every single penny I spent on the children, the house, the dogs...anything and then would read me the riot act. Mind you I parented full time and worked full time. The money he spent was never a concern for him. I was not frivolous with money. It was a matter of control for him. He was (and is) extremely controlling. I actually had a vision of myself freezing up outside and boiling with rage inside (as was the case for me) when you mentioned the printout (there's that senience again). I could not express this to him, but unlike you, he never wanted to know what "was wrong".
I do have money issues, but am not sure how much that was driving any of this. I remember having a realization when I was 8-9 years old, that I didn't understand why my parents kept me around. I don't remember them expressing any value in me, even indirectly. Our house was an emotional desert and I was never validated or even felt "seen." I "knew" from this realization that I had to be careful, because if my parents got any more uncaring or angry they could just kick me out and I would die sinceI was just a kid and couldn't take care of myself. To me, money is the physical embodiment of being able to take care of myself.
S has also had a lot of problems with money. Her mother made her sit down and figure out the finances when S was about the same age. I don't mean that she sat S down to watch and learn about money, I mean she asked S how the bills were going to get paid! S has admitted to me that this has lead her to refuse to help plan or go along with financial plans with me. Also, S spent many years spending all our cash and then running up credit cards because there wasn't "enough" cash for her to spend. When I tried to point out the charges on the card she said "That isn't true," and refused to discuss it any further. Denial, it ain't....
I tried to balance this by not spending anything for myself. However, I do work and have worked very hard in my career and am no longer willing to go without just to support her selfishness. I am willing to share, but I am tired of having to go look at how much money we have before I can buy anything, because I have no idea how much S has spent. BTW, S has not run up credit card for several years. That stopped when I told her that as soon as I saw one more credit card charge that we didn't have a prior agreement to make, I would divorce her immediately, no questions asked, no discussion, no explanation. Money has been a big issue between us, but I am trying to get the checking account to the level where I don't have to check it anymore and can spend my agreed share without fear of bankruptcy or any more bounced checks.
If she is hateful and enraged that is okay. Don't think about it in fact. It's better if you let her process it and don't try to analyze it. She needs to deal with her anger without you. You just make it worse.
I can finally see that now, and am much more peaceful "letting" her stomp and grunt her way around the house. I have to admit that I take some sadistic pleasure in it as well. I can really see how she is doing it to herself and that it really doesn't have anything to do with me. I do worry more and more about the environment that it creates for my daughter. I'm sure she will be writing on the Internet II in 20 years how her home always felt tense and threatening.
I can understand her hurt feelings and shame when it looked like you were "scolding and correcting" her with the yellow highlighting. She probably related it to very harsh, punitive authority figures in the past. We can understand it but not cater to it.
On your side, I hope you weren't all controlling and parental. I hope you were just trying to straighten things out without blame. It sounds like you held your boundaries which is very important.
Consciously, I was only trying to understand these items and check to see whether we had different understandings of the agreement, which we did. I knew this would be a emotionally charged discussion, so I highlighted the items so I could find them again easily. I did not plan to show the printout directly, just to use it as my own reference. I felt that I was able to hold my boundaries very well in this situation where I would have caved in before. I'm happy about that and I'm glad that S and I seem to still have an agreement on the finances. Her pattern in the past would have been to blame me and then pull out of the agreement because I was "bad" first.
S's mother used guilt trips and shame to reinforce her will over S. I also believe that S still has all those years of anger at her mother for not seeing her, not valuing her, not meeting her needs, etc. However, it is unacceptable to dump it on me. She needs to accept it and deal with it in an adult manner while realizing where it does and doesn't come from.
On a different note, a lot of what I have been working on personally lately is finding my voice again. Part of that is speaking up with S or in counseling about how I really feel and what I really think, regardless of whether I may be right or wrong. I have to deal with my doubts and the aftermath like from the last session, but I suppose that's the sucky growth part of all this. :)
Part of this is singing. Just in church and in the car for now, but its a start. :o (not surprised, looks sort of like singing)
Part of that is posting on this board on some of the other threads. I have to say that I feel like a fraud when I do it. I hear a voice that says "what do you know," "who are you to say," etc. but I try to ignore that "voice" and go with my feelings and empathy instead.
-
Lontire: What do any of us know, really? It's just sharing, it's just "talk". I certainly hear you and acknowledge you. Can't hear your singing though, pity.
You certainly seem like you are doing a good job trying to find out what your life is all about. The "sucky growth part" cracked me up, but you are right. I was told by my teacher to "get to enjoy not enjoying it", because of just that..the growth to be made.
There is a beautiful book by Pema Chodron called "When Things Fall Apart". I highly recommend it. She is a buddhist nun, but don't let that title intimidate you (I can hear her laughing now!). She is down to earth and funny and truly an enlightened person.
Your decision to open to life and find your voice reminded me of what she says about how the bad stuff, the no way out stuff, gives us the opportunity to see where we are, if we would only step closer to the fear of it, and inspect it for a while. We are so used to running and hiding and softening things for ourselves, but to truly grow, we need to embrace the pain, find out why it is there for us.
Bless you. We are all in this together.
-
longtire
Part of that is posting on this board on some of the other threads. I have to say that I feel like a fraud when I do it. I hear a voice that says "what do you know," "who are you to say," etc. but I try to ignore that "voice" and go with my feelings and empathy instead
I understand that feeling like a fraud. I feel this way at times, like who am I, I have the same problem, Im in a relationship even worse how could I give any advise. Why should I be an expert to say anything worth listening to. I should not say anything, leave it to a professional.
I still make a comment now and then I know most here understand whats in our heart, we all want to help eachother and understand the Ns are a complicated multfacitated bunch. Sometimes you can see others are very good at the advise and Im thankful for all their knowlege.
I appreciate any comments at any level of dealings with the N.
onlyrenting
-
I'm feeling really sad right now. I was reading information on the internet about how a spouse or partner can help someone who has been sexually abused. I realized that when I did those things for S she either denied them, diminished me, or blamed me for CAUSING her problems. I realized that she had NEVER asked me how she could support me. NEVER reassured me that she would be there for me and was willing to wait out a problem.
Worst of all I realized that she NEVER cared about, loved, desired, or supported me as a person or as her husband. She just needed someone to walk around carrying a mask of her mother so she could take out her anger and pain on them.
This time, I'm trying not to problem solve. I'm gently reminding myself when I start to get angry that I'm just avoiding the pain, and that its better to feel the pain and accept it as my own instead of run away.
I would really appreciate your caring prayers and supportive thoughts tonight.
Thanks...
-
I'm feeling really sad right now. I was reading information on the internet about how a spouse or partner can help someone who has been sexually abused. I realized that when I did those things for S she either denied them, diminished me, or blamed me for CAUSING her problems. I realized that she had NEVER asked me how she could support me. NEVER reassured me that she would be there for me and was willing to wait out a problem.
Well, I don't know what info you read but it's extremely difficult for a spouse to help the partner if they were sexually abused in childhood. The partner who is trying to help will be attacked many times for their efforts.
Your wife may have wanted to be a good wife. But she can't do it with her problems. Until her inner hell is diminished (in intensive therapy), I don't think you have a chance of getting your needs met.
I think you deserve individual therapy to get needs for being "seen" and "heard" met. You're trying to do this without help. That's what you've been forced to do all your life. But now you have the resources to have your own therapist. I hope you consider it.
bunny
-
Well, I don't know what info you read but it's extremely difficult for a spouse to help the partner if they were sexually abused in childhood. The partner who is trying to help will be attacked many times for their efforts.
What I read was a list of suggestions on how to support and allow space for the abused spouse during their recovery. Of course, all of that supposes the abused is willing and is working on their recovery. Reading it helped me to realize is that my instincts were on the right track in the beginning of our marriage. I didn't do anything wrong and certainly didn't cause my wife's problems in any way. With someone not using denial as a defense, my support may even have been appreciated for the caring attempt that it was. Imagine that!
Your wife may have wanted to be a good wife. But she can't do it with her problems. Until her inner hell is diminished (in intensive therapy), I don't think you have a chance of getting your needs met.
I finally see that.
I think she still believes that she HAS to be a PERFECT daughter/wife/mother/person. When reality contradicts that, she creates her own reality in her head. Part of her (the real part underneath?) knows that being perfect is impossible, so she projects outside excuses (usually me) as to why she is held back from her "natural" state of being perfect.
S's mother shamed her into giving up herself and being "perfect" to keep her mother from dying and abandoning her and S tries to do the same thing to me. I can see that its the only way she knows/believes/trusts. I can see that she believes that her way is THE only possible definition for "relationship" right now.
From growing up in a family without emotional feedback, I was already afraid that I wasn't good enough as a person. Even then, I still couldn't convince myself that the things that S was saying about me were real or correct. I know, I tried to convince myself that she was right and I was wrong. <Insert "My wife blamed me and all I got was this lousy depression" T-shirt> :lol:
I've wasted a lot of time and energy playing that pointless (for me) game with her. I won't do it anymore. Not with her or with anyone else. I believe that means our marriage is over because I don't think she can interact with me in any other way.
I think you deserve individual therapy to get needs for being "seen" and "heard" met. You're trying to do this without help. That's what you've been forced to do all your life. But now you have the resources to have your own therapist. I hope you consider it.
I agree. I have an individual session with the counselor next week and then we have a joint session the week after. I'm going to keep those appointments, but I believe that will be the end of that. Part of the agreement with the counselor is that she will only treat us as long as she's seeing us as a couple. I'm calling today to setup an appointment with my previous therapist. I'm really curious to see how it goes for me with him this time.
More later, its taken me 2 hours to post this due to interruptions today. :)
-
I didn't do anything wrong and certainly didn't cause my wife's problems in any way. With someone not using denial as a defense, my support may even have been appreciated for the caring attempt that it was. Imagine that!
I'm sorry you've been deprived of it for so long.
I think she still believes that she HAS to be a PERFECT daughter/wife/mother/person. When reality contradicts that, she creates her own reality in her head. Part of her (the real part underneath?) knows that being perfect is impossible, so she projects outside excuses (usually me) as to why she is held back from her "natural" state of being perfect.
I don't think there is a real part of her that is available to anyone right now. External events generally get in the way of perfection. Then the person who is desperately trying to be perfect feels shame fused with rage.
S's mother shamed her into giving up herself and being "perfect" to keep her mother from dying and abandoning her and S tries to do the same thing to me. I can see that its the only way she knows/believes/trusts. I can see that she believes that her way is THE only possible definition for "relationship" right now.
Insightful.
From growing up in a family without emotional feedback, I was already afraid that I wasn't good enough as a person. Even then, I still couldn't convince myself that the things that S was saying about me were real or correct. I know, I tried to convince myself that she was right and I was wrong.
But now you know what's accurate and what's distorted.
I've wasted a lot of time and energy playing that pointless (for me) game with her. I won't do it anymore. Not with her or with anyone else. I believe that means our marriage is over because I don't think she can interact with me in any other way.
It was always over. The only question was when you'd open the prison gates.
Congratulations on making your own therapy appointment! I hope it is helpful!!
bunny
-
Well, I realized that this thread has turned into more of a diary than a discussion. I'm not sure what to make of that. On the one hand I'm proud of myself for opening up, finding my voice, and sharing what I'm feeling and thinking. On the other hand, I still feel afraid a lot of times that talking about myself "makes" me Narcissitic or selfish. I know in my brain that a lot of this comes from growing up in a home where it was taboo to ever talk about feelings, but I haven't been able to emotionally get it yet. For now, I'm trying to surf along, reminding myself of the good points of posting and giving myself permission to make mistakes for the rest. If someone is unhappy with this thread, I hope they post and let me know rather than just ignoring it. In the past, I would have just said that they can go somewhere else if they don't like it. It feels more connected for me to be open to relevant criticism now.
I have an appointment to restart therapy with my old therapist on Monday. I felt very tongue-tied when talking to him on the phone to setup the appointment. I was surprised by my reaction and will mention that with him Monday.
On the good side of life, I got my inner child to trust me! When I was feeling so sad the other night, I did some guided imagery, talking with my inner child. I told him I wanted to feel all the sadness and reassured him it was all right to let it all out. I only had a few tears, but felt a lot better afterwards. I asked what he needed to feel safe and happy and he told me that he needed me (the adult) to protect him (the child). I promised to do that and he handed the protection role over to me and has been happily being just a child again. Since then, I am aware of my inner child when he speaks up and tells me to enjoy life more. Later that night "we" had a good time making ourself dinner and watching a couple of fun action movies.
The committment I made to protect myself is from unhealthy people and situations without avoiding or withdrawing in general, as I have done in the past. Since I do not seem to have any influence to get my wife to stop treating me badly for things which have nothing to do with me, the only other course I can see is to not interact with her. I plan to let her know that I have decided to go ahead in getting a divorce in front of a witness in our next (last) joint counseling. Even if things could be worked out between us, I don't see any way they can be worked out while we are together. I know that I need a long break from all the blame and shame crap so I can work on my own issues and not waste time and energy "working" on a relationship that does not give me anything I need or want. I've been working to gather information on our financial situation and thinking about what I need to do to prepare.
I realized last night that this is the problem I have had with Imago all along. I understand how it's supposed to work. It's a great idea for two people in an intimate relationship to be committed to help each other grow and mature, essentially being each other's amateur therapist. My wife is unable to do that for me. I have attempted to play this role with her in the past, but she just blames me even more for doing it. She is neither able to give or receive in this area due to her beliefs and defenses around relationship, intimacy and power/control/influence. I honestly think that it might actually be better for her as well if I were not around to mistakenly blame for her issues. Who knows, she might realize that even though I'm not around anymore, she still has the same problems. I prefer to call that hope, I'm not relying on wishful thinking anymore. :)
-
Well, I realized that this thread has turned into more of a diary than a discussion.
Maybe you had a lot to say about your process right now. I don't think it's narcissistic.
Sounds like you've had some profound insights/changes and now you're living more like a mensch. That's a good thing.
I think something like Imago is designed for people with a lot higher ego functioning than your wife has. And as for spouses being each other's therapists, that's like walking through a minefield. Even a therapist can barely help another person. What we *think* would help them might send them into a tailspin. Anyway, you've retired from being her therapist which was a wise move.
Keep the diary going!
bunny
-
I had therapy with my old therapist earlier today. I was afraid and shaking some as I went in. I dived right in explaining where I'm at with things.
My therapist said "maybe you're having a hard time making this decision because its a complicated, hard decision to make." So simple that it never even ocurred(sp?) to me! I've been looking for what's wrong with me. I never stopped to think that maybe its just plain HARD! He also said, that maybe I'm biting off too big a piece to work on. Instead of worrying about whether there will be a next relationship and what it will be like, and whether it will be safe, just do what I need to do today with the relationship that I have now. He suggested telling S how I feel and being vulnerable with my fear and sadness about the situation, without resorting to anger to be heard through her defenses. I had been planning to do this in our next joint counseling anyway.
I believe that the most helpful thing he did for me today was trust me. He didn't try to solve the problem, and in fact just barely pulled one thread of the web and trusted me to do the rest. For where I'm at right now, it was exactly what I needed to hear, and no more. I honestly was thinking that this was going to take a while, uncovering layer after layer. I think that I've been building up to this for a long time. The only thing EVER wrong with me is that I kept trying to convince myself that there was something wrong with me, instead of there being womething wrong with the people I grew up with. I'm under no illusions that I'm through dealing with this, but I made a major step today with my therapists help, and I'll never be the same.
On the way out (literally) I realized that what I've been reluctant to let go, what I've been defending by getting angry instead of afriad or sad about is my dreams for my marriage to S. I've gone over and over the "steps of grief" from various sources and have never read or heard this described. I've have many, many dreams, expectations, and aspirations that I hoped, expected and longed to have fulfilled through my marriage. These are not pipe dreams or wishes to have someone take care of me in place of me. These are realizable goals given a committed partner, hard work and time.
I typed up a list tonight of all my hopes and dreams for this marriage, printed it, and deleted the file. I took them outside, read them one by one and pictured them flying off. Then I burned the list. Very symbolic, huh? I felt like I needed something more concrete to let these cherished hopes and dreams go. I know that many of these will come back to roost with me again in another place and another time, but are not possible in this marriage. I'm crying now, because these dreams weren't selfish. They included everyone involved (wife, daughter, family and I) being fulfilled and getting their needs met. They may be a bit idealistic, but I'm not about to give that part of myself up! I love my dreams like the children I've never had. Its hard to put the final nail in this coffin and admit that these beautiful dreams are truly and finally dead, but I have.
Now, I'm not sure that I even want to try to express my sadness and fear to S without getting angry. But, I'm feeling like I want to do it for me and leave the emotional relationship in a way with closure for me. Even if she were able to respond with connection, understanding and empathy, it is too late. I have let go the last of my pigeons. There is only her and I, everyone else is already gone. All that is left is the last goodbye.
I hope that this is not overly poetic or maudlin. I have had 2 glasses of wine tonight. If it is, well, this is really me in the moment. I don't know what else to say, goodnight.
-
This morning's update: I woke up to find a note from my wife saying that she was not willing to continue joint counseling together. She plans to pursue individual therapy instead.
I'd call this synchronicity, but I think there is a fairly obvious connection and interaction here. I am struck by how often lately I've noticed "coincidences" happening in my life. I honestly don't know if they were there before and I didn't notice, or if they are happening more frequently now that I am more open to them. Either way, I really have the feeling that some things are meant to be.
I plan to talk with my wife tonight and let her know that I have decided to get a divorce in a non-confrontational way. That is, I plan to be non-confrontational in both this discussion and throughout the divorce. I know I can, now. I no longer need to be angry to protect my dreams. I may feel afraid and I know that I'll feel sad, but I no longer need to feel angry to protect myself, no matter how my wife decides to act.
-
Longtire: I believe what you are seeing is that you are indeed creating what you want.
Inspirational.
-
This morning's update: I woke up to find a note from my wife saying that she was not willing to continue joint counseling together. She plans to pursue individual therapy instead.
I think your wife senses that you are going to say something she doesn't want to hear [in joint therapy] so if she cuts that avenue off, everything will be "okay."
If you have decided to divorce her, there is no confrontation needed. You just present it as a decision. Unfortunately the confrontations will come later, and they will be rough: about money, visitation (can't remember if your daughter is a minor), etc. She will be a woman scorned and no matter how nice you are about it, that won't matter. It's not about you, it's about her emotional problems. Get a good attorney.
bunny
-
bunny, I also wonder whether this is a reaction to finding out that we were going to start using a tape recorder at the sessions. If she really weren't saying anything, I would expect her to welcome this step to prove her case. I think that the thing she is most angry with me about is that I don't take her word for things anymore, I trust my own judgement now. I leave open the door for her to have influence with me, but not to be in control or power over me anymore.
As for the divorce, I'm going to start a new thread to get some suggestions from people who have been at this point. I'll take the deatils there.
-
I have not read the entire discussion, but I did want to thank you, longtire, for sharing your story. You see, I had a mother very much like S's, and while I have tried very hard to recover from her, your story also made me see that I have copied some very hurtful, maladaptive behavior from her. My beloved husband should not be the victim of that behavior, but I fear that I do hurt him sometimes. I am trying to learn better, so I can give him better.
I am probably simply repeating what others have said, but please, please, get out of this relationship and reach toward someone who will recognize and honor you for who you are. You have fought the good fight. If S insists on living out her life in delusional misery, there is nothing you can do about it. For your own sake and your daughter's, prove that something better is indeed possible.
I will pray for you. I just wanted you to know that your story touched and helped me, and I hope you find peace in someone's arms. You deserve it.
-
Guest,
I have not read the entire discussion, but I did want to thank you, longtire, for sharing your story. You see, I had a mother very much like S's, and while I have tried very hard to recover from her, your story also made me see that I have copied some very hurtful, maladaptive behavior from her. My beloved husband should not be the victim of that behavior, but I fear that I do hurt him sometimes. I am trying to learn better, so I can give him better.
I hope that you can tell your husband this directly. If so, you are very far ahead of where my wife is right now. Just recognizing that you have these issues and that they affect the person or people you care about is a huge ability. Working to make changes to interact better the people you care about shows your ability not only to love, but to act on that love, which is most difficult of all.
I am probably simply repeating what others have said, but please, please, get out of this relationship and reach toward someone who will recognize and honor you for who you are. You have fought the good fight. If S insists on living out her life in delusional misery, there is nothing you can do about it. For your own sake and your daughter's, prove that something better is indeed possible.
I can't hear it too often! I realize at this point that there is nothing I can do to make the relationship work out. I'm also aware of the issues that kept me here so long and have dealt with them. I know that better relationships are out there, I have no doubt. I look forward to that, but for now I'll fight the battle of the day, and leave tomorrow's battles for tomorrow.
I will pray for you. I just wanted you to know that your story touched and helped me, and I hope you find peace in someone's arms. You deserve it.
Prayer and kind thoughts always help. Thank you very much, your kindness means a lot to me.
-
longtire
typed up a list tonight of all my hopes and dreams for this marriage, printed it, and deleted the file. I took them outside, read them one by one and pictured them flying off. Then I burned the list. Very symbolic, huh? I felt like I needed something more concrete to let these cherished hopes and dreams go. I know that many of these will come back to roost with me again in another place and another time, but are not possible in this marriage. I'm crying now, because these dreams weren't selfish. They included everyone involved (wife, daughter, family and I) being fulfilled and getting their needs met. They may be a bit idealistic, but I'm not about to give that part of myself up! I love my dreams like the children I've never had. Its hard to put the final nail in this coffin and admit that these beautiful dreams are truly and finally dead, but I have.
I'm crying with you, how can you make the blind see, what they can't feel. You tried every way to make her see the light, but she believes it is you who is blind. She has 20/20 in the mirror, it will be her only view.
( I can be korny sometimes, sorry)
I'm feeling sad for you, but I feel your strength to let go. Don't let your guard down, it's your kindness that is counted on, remember your anger is not always a bad thing, use it to keep your guard up.
onlyrenting
-
onlyrenting1,
I have no problem being kind :) , and don't feel the need to be angry anymore (for now). I'm in touch with what I feel, which tells me what I want. Then I can decide what the best way to meet my need or want is. As long as I am aware and advocating for myself, I don't feel afraid (that general fear thing) or defensive. I will continue to be protective without being defensive for both my and my daughter's interests. What a difference that is for me.
Evidently, my wife FAXed a copy of the "I'm not doing joint counseling" letter to the counselor as well. That seems more obviously avoidant than usual on her part. Usually she does the passive avoidance or "talk to everybody to get them on my side" kind of thing. She has hardly been at the house except to sleep for the past week, since her individual counseling. I have a call into the counselor saying "thanks for your help" as closure for me.
My mood has been bouncing up and down a bit, but 90% of the time anymore I feel peaceful, connected, and hopeful.
-
I'm angry! I'm angry that I have to do all this work to protect myself from getting divorced from someone who only took advantage of me. Why doesn't she have to prove that she deserves to get anything from me? Why shouldn't she have to do the work to have to prove that she deserves any of my money. Money=time=mylife. Why should I need to worry about what selfish, unrealistic things she is going to do or say, when she can count on me to continue to be the stable, reliable, calm, honest one?
I would be thrilled! to meet a woman who is as committed, conscientious, spiritual, loving, open, accepting, supportive, and hardworking as I am! I wouldn't treat her like s@#t, blame everything on her, refuse to admit to reality, avoid all responsibility, verbally and emotionally abuse her. I'd work to get my act together to keep someone like that in my life!
I'm mad at my parents for not giving me the tools I needed to recognize a leech and throw her out of my life. I'm mad at her parents for starting these problems and raising her to feel entitled to take anything she pleases and not have to lift an emotional finger and still be able to look herself in the mirror every day. Aaaghhghfhghfhhrhrrrrrh!
Why does the one who has already given so much with so little in return, still called on to give some more? I made a mistake and lot a lot, so now I owe some more? Why can't I sue her for breach of the marriage contract that said Love, Honor and Obey? I didn't get any of those. Why aren't things setup for me to show that she violated the agreement, and she's out? Why are things setup so that the lazy, selfish, hateful one gets to continue to take from the hard working, responsible, caring one? The world is not anywhere close to fair and that SUCKS!
Why do I care so much about this and she doesn't give s%&t about ending things, except for how much of "her" money she's going to lose? Why am I the one still walking on eggshells to keep from upsetting her during the divorce? Screw that. I'm taking care of me and my daughter. If she pulls something shitty, I'll make sure that everyone knows it. No more keeping things under wraps because of my shame. I'll make sure that everyone knows what knid of a person she is and how she doesn't keep her word. I'll make sure everyone knows about the verbal and emotional abuse I've put up with over the years. I'll even make sure they know about the sexual frigidity and the financial irresponsibility. Why should I care, it reflects on her exactly how it should reflect on her. I'm not afraid to be seen as the crazy, out of control one by bringing this up anymore! If people want to get sucked into her fake social front and believe her over me, thenI don't want them within 10 miles of me anyway.
I've been having a crappy day today because I wasn't letting all this out. I only hope that she feels as miserable as I do, whether she is aware of it or not. Why should I feel crappy about it? I've demonstrated my worth and committment in a very difficult situation. I should be strutting around like a peacock! I've got some issues, but I can work them out instead of running away all the time.
What does it say about her that she couldn't make it work with someone who was trying so hard? I didn't want her to have a different personality or change who she is. I did want her to grow up and grow out of the crap her mother fed her growing up. She is too concerned with living up to her perfect image to even be halfway decent. She is still more concerned with meeting her mother's expectations that the adult man that she married to use and takes his money. She needs to go back home and live with her mommy if that's what she wants. I wanted her to stop denying reality and work on her crap that is hurtful and prevents any kind of intimacy. I wanted her to stop blaming me for every single problem, see me for who I am, and take responsibility for her words and actions (or lack thereof). If that's too much to ask, to too bad. I'm damn picky and I'm too stubborn to give up going for what I want. I don't believe it's too much to ask from someone who pledged to love you until they died. Talk, touch and grow!
-
longtire,
A long overdue rant, eh? :)
Well your feelings are quite reasonable. It's a bummer. But your life will (after this upheaval) be a lot better.
bunny
-
Longtire
I feel that we are coming on a 'journey' with you. I think you are a loving, kind, compassionate person who has been downtrodden for far too long.
I hope you have the inner strength to look after yourself and your daughter throughout this process.
I also believe that in the future, you will meet an 'aware', loving and giving woman to share your life with. This is the least you deserve after so many years of unhappiness.
Kindest Regards
-
Longtire,
Getting mad is a necessary part of the cleansing and healing process. It will keep you strong and moving forward. It gives you purpose and a reason to prevail. Don't let it eat you up, but know that you are justified in feeling the anger.
My rants have had to be with friends, my journal, my therapist and now this site as he would not allow me the opportunity to rant at him. You must let it out somewhere and ideally not where you daughter can be exposed. My H has always made sure his children were around when he was around me as he knew I would not go off on him in front of them.
Do not worry about protecting her. I have told anyone willing to listen what my H did to me and he will have to live with the ramifications of that. He once told me that he didn't want to be a pyryaha (sp?) in his own community. Guess what? The boat left the dock on that one and anyone who knows me thinks he is pond scum. Oh well!
I truly feel your pain. I have been there and done that about 15 months ago and we're still haggling on the divorce. I was not the one who wanted the divorce initially, but now that I know all the lies and things he hid from me, I certainly should have been.
Hang in there, stay strong, surround yourself with good friends who support your decision, and continue to be the great dad you are. Make your daughter proud of how you came through this and got your life moving in a positive direction. None of this is fair to those of us who did the right thing, were always honest and trustworthy, only wanted to have a happy family and loved. They didn't love us, at least not enough to sustain a good relationship. They are not capable of that and probably never will be no matter who they choose for partners. Those are the realities that make these decisions possible and necessary.
Brigid
-
Longtire: glad to hear you get pissed off, too.
You are having to do all this preparation FOR YOU, not for her.
She never lifted a finger.....she sure as heck won't now!
So go ahead and get mad, just keep on keeping on....this too, shall pass. You are doing this work for YOU and your daughter. NOT for her.
Anger is healthy, as long as you do something with it! Hey, you already did!
-
Thanks, everyone, for your support. Boy, I really needed to get all that out! I feel cleansed, but exhausted. Now that I let all that out, I feel more in touch with my anger and am aware of it being there most of the time around my wife and marriage. Hopefully a good sign.
Like Brigid, I have never had a chance to express this anger or any other non-happy feeling and have my wife truly listen or have any connection with it. Brigid, I'm sorry you're still stuck in the middle of your divorce. That is one of the things I dread most. Rest assured that I won't let my wife know that. I plan to tell her that I'm in no rush and give her the impression that I'm the one who might drag it out if she doesn't cooperate. She'll believe that I might do it because she would do it.
I think that I swung too far with the forgiveness process I've been working on. I gave up anger along with the resentment and rage. I don't mind getting rid of the resentment and rage, they were making me sick. However holding in the anger and not feeling it was making me sick. Now I have the anger to give me the energy to take action and take risks. I'm going to need it.
-
Well, I hadn't seen more than about 10 seconds total of my wife this week, at least until last night. Unfortunately, I ended up going to dinner with her tonight. I only did that because we were going with my daughter, her friend, and our good friend. I came back drained and jittery tonight, but with time, music, and a little typing am feeling better now. I REALLY believe there's a lot to this Highly Sensitive Person stuff for me. I was a lot more aware of overexposure coming on tonight and took the first opportunity to do something about it.
I got a call to help a friend move his parents into town from about 3-4 hours away. Sounds good to me: get a couple of free meals, get out of the house and out of town. We left Friday night, after I dropped my car off at the shop to have some overdue work done. The work will take several days to complete, should be ready eerly next week. Anyway, we got to the house late Friday and loaded boxes for a while, then went to sleep. Got up about 6AM and packed until dinner time, then drove back home. He had another friend help him unload this morning.
So what's the problem? I didn't tell my wife I was going, since I didn't see her last week. Recently, she spends 1-2 hours at home before I get off work and otherwise, just sleeps here.
Last night she got back after I did and came in. She saw me sitting there (no car in driveway) and said "Oh, you're home." She puttered around for a while and then came and sat down to watch the show I was watching on TV. I knew she was bursting to talk, but just waited and kept telling myself "it doesn't matter." Finally, she said something along the lines of "I didn't know if you were coming back tonight." I told her briefly about helping to move. She said she didn't know if I was coming back (implication ever), and I replied that she hadn't been around at all to tell. She said that she is simply excecising her right to have fun and be happy and that she wasn't happy at home. <Insert guilt trip here> Like I am. I think I said something brilliant like "OK" at this point. Despite expecting this kind of exchange and experienceing it for years, these surreal discussions still blow my mind. There's never any direct discussion of the big issues with her, its always dancing around the truth.
This morning I was watching TV (maybe I should stop doing that?!?) she came up and started again. She basically reasserted her right to have fun and be happy, and I didn't disagree with her. Later she found me in another room, and told me that "I don't believe the same way you do, so I am telling you that I'm going to be gone next weekend." I once again replied with an insightful "OK" and she left. Something about that bothered me though, so I went and found her and told her something along the lines of "I wanted to make sure that you are not under a misconception, I'm not against letting you know where I go, you just have to be around to hear it."
Later, in the car on the way to dinner just her and I, she asked if we had agreed on a $ amount over which we need to discuss spending. I replied that I didn't think we had one. She was referencing the car repairs, which are high. OUCH! Basically this conversation ended as most do between us, with no real discussion and NO conclusions whatsoever. I can really see that she's either trying to guilt trip me or start a fight with most of her comments and questions. I keep telling myself that "it doesn't matter" and that really seems to help me to just let it go.
Anyway, I could have called her on her cellphone at any time and let her know what's going on. But, I'm really tired of chasing after her in any sense. Of course, she could have called me at any time on my cellphone as well. I'm not exactly proud of what I did by not calling, but am even more tired of trying to be the "good one" and tracking my wife down to tell her day to day interaction things that wouldn't get a blink in a healthy relationship.
Any comments on this "interaction?" Its out of character for me, but seems understandable given the distance between us right now. No excuses or justification. Has anyone experienced anything like this when they were distancing themselves from an abusive SO? Its just different for me, and I'm trying to make sense of it.
-
longtire,
When a relationship is pretty much over, people stop doing the little things that show they care. That is how some people become aware that their marriage is on the rocks. Maybe, just maybe, your wife is getting a slight hint that you are losing interest in this marriage and it may be moribund. And it's no longer your job to cater to her feelings. It's over.
bunny
-
longtire,
There's never any direct discussion of the big issues with her, its always dancing around the truth.
my H trys to make any discussion like it's a joke or takes one part of what you say, makes light of it, now, no more to disscuss and fustrates the whole thing where you just walk away not talking about the important things.
He does this to both of us, its either a history lesson where you must listen to him, or what you need to say to him could not possibly be that important.
I'm really tired of chasing after her in any sense. Of course, she could have called me at any time on my cellphone as well. I'm not exactly proud of what I did by not calling, but am even more tired of trying to be the "good one
It's Painful, things are strained maybe decide if communication can be handled by other means, send e-mail, leave a voice mail or call your D or letter writing, you may need this just for safety reasons.
For now you need your space anything Personal with your friends her friends you are breaking away and finding your space where ever you can.
It's not even about being the one doing the right thing, you would like to call someone who cares, I'ts difficult when you know both are under pressure to let go.
longtire, we're both going through a very long marriage and the emotions are up and down. Sometimes the battle gets a bit much. Just know you have a lot of supporters here and I watch your threads too, I have alot going on but when I get some more time I will get back with you again.
You are my Hero!!!
onlyrenting
-
Wow, I realized this morning why these interaction feel wierd to me. THEY ARE WIERD! I'm aware now of what's going on while its going on. It really helps to keep reminding myself that "it doesn't matter." These "discussions" we have are unconnected and almost completely irrelevant to the "topic" of discussion. I can really see how my wife uses the "subject" as a justification for talking about her same old issues and attacking to maintain distance between us. She is always looking for "proof" that I am the bad person and the cause of all problems. No wonder she always told me she hates talking with me! I'm actually silly enough to think we're talking about what "we" are acting like we're talking about. If I wanted to talk about something else, I would just talk about that instead. "Oh, what wicked webs we weave..."
Its taking me longer than I thought to gather the paperwork. Plus, I really want to check out those books from the Eddy Law website that mum recommended on the divorce thread. The more I think about it, the more I expect my wife to "split" and I want to make sure that I am as prepared as possible, emotionally and legally/financially for when that happens. I've waited this long, a few days won't kill me if I avoid my wife as much as possible during that time. :) It was crystal clear to me last night what an energy vampire my wife is to me. Its funny how much other people love to be around her, but of course she criticize anyone who doesn't just love her as having no personality or sense of humor. She only hangs around with people who meet her needs for emotional propping up.
I joined the church I've been going to since the beginning of the year. I'm starting to make friends there and feel like I belong. Sort of a "chosen family." Oddly enough, the people that I have told part of my story to react about the same as you do here in this forum! :o They are supportive, understanding and caring. In fact, its kind of funny, but my wife is the only one who has ever reacted to me this way. Well, OK, there was the guy who accused me of being Narcissistic because I expressed my opinion and didn't always go along with what he wanted. But, I don't really count him, since he was the N and ended up alienating everyone else around him too.
-
bunny, I wasn't sure what "moribund" really meant, so I looked it up:
Definitions of Moribund on the Web:
Near death.
Declining; in a dying state; on its last legs. Turkey is called a moribund state. Institutions on the decline are called moribund. Applied to institutions, commercial companies, states, etc. (Latin, moribundus, ready to die.)
In a dying state. *<In the moribund patient deepening stupor and coma are the usual preludes to death B Norman Cameron>
stagnant: not growing or changing; without force or vitality
on the point of death; breathing your last; "a moribund patient"; "the expiring man was carried home by his two friends"
You are right on the money with this word!
-
longtire,
Preparation will be never ending. Hoping you are well organized to find all you need quickly. The other day I was sorting through things and it was like magic, I found some important papers but they we not what I was looking for. I don't have as much as you, but just the same get started, from what I have read on other threads, there will always be more.
My H wants to use the internet will write more later ..onlyrening
-
I read your posts on the last two pages and your feelings are mine exactly. I wish I could write like you. I have the same feelings about my parents and their lack of parenting to show you about a true relationship. I feel your wrath about your wife saying its ok for her to be happy and not have any feelings(mine did the same thing). I know mine is nowhere near yours and I dont pretend it to be. I just wanted to let you know man to man that your feelings are justified and that your anger has touched me because I feel it too. I am trying to find a therapist. Iappreciate your posts. It helps me understand what my future was going to be. I pray that you and your daughter will have peace.
-
Longtire,
Just a few thoughts,
1. By my calculations you must only be in your mid thirties. You have an opportunity to free yourself from someone who will keep you miserable the rest of your life and find someone new and normal. Seize it. There are an awful lot of nice normal women looking for someone who sounds as patient, kind and loyal as you. And you still have plenty of time to start a new family, which if you are like me will become more important down the road.
2. I had parents who sound similar to yours. My dad was kind but weak. My mom, pretty darn cranky. Especially to my dad. Emotions were definitely verboten. But I met my stupendous wife and became a Christian within a few months of each other and my life was transformed. I am glad to hear you are growing closer to your folks.
3. My brother is my N. My father passed away about 10 years ago and my brother has destroyed my relationship with my blood relatives. However a marvelous thing was revealed. My friends in my church, who are my closest friends, have all been wonderful through everything with my brother. The lesson I learned was one that Jesus taught. In your case and mine we are being shown who our true family is. It is the people who love us unconditionally and put us first knowing we will do the same for them. That is the difference between the love of God and the "love" of this sick twisted world as evidenced in your wife.
4. The realization of how bad my brother is was like waking from a foggy dream. Everything was clear, including the course I had to take. Don't hesitate. Move. Take action to get your life on course. It is never too late. God is a God of second chances. He is giving you one now but you have to grab it. He's got something better for you.
God bless you.
-
Wow, thank you all for your support and encouragement. To read things about me like "you're my hero" and "I wish I could write like you" really help. I think I've been beating myself up for so long, I don't remember how to be kind to myself. I think that I adopted the techniques of my wife and bullies from the past, but didn't want to fell guilty about bullying anyone else, so I turned it on myself. Whoa! That's a revelation for me.
Its NOT OK to bully myself. Its NOT OK to bully myself. Its NOT OK to bully myself.
I think I'll keep repeating this one until it sticks!
I wrote a few more things down last night that I was feeling guilty about for doing to my wife. (not dropping topics when she says she's not willing to discuss it, getting angry and yelling at her, etc.) I don't think that will be a problem from now on. Here is what I posted on the Divorce Suggestions thread a minute ago:
I choose not to be in a marriage with a woman who is unable to be intimate with me because she is too afraid.
How do you like this for an "I" statement that declares what I think about the situation? I just came from my therapy appointment, and my therapist helped me frame this up. He said something like "Marriage is a contract and you can't break that based on how you feel. You CAN break it based on what you think." In other words if you're reactive, angry, sad, etc. that is not sufficient reason to break it off. You need to work on your behavior and reactions in that situation. If you have looked at the situation and don't believe it meets your needs, then you have a right to break the contract.
This is what I've been looking for, a way for me to understand the situation without being "bad" and feeling guilty. I think that is why I have been bouncing back and forth so much recently. Its relatively easy to say you want to get divorced if its driven by anger. Its harder if you can see both sides and see the situation realistically. BTW, my therapist suggested adding the "because she is afraid" to the end to help keep from getting angry about it.
As for the separation idea, I don't believe it makes any sense in this situation. I was more curious if anyone had tried and whether it had any impact one way or another. Its sort of a moot point now...
Ahhhhh.....(sound of relaxing)
Guest, thanks for you support and encouragement. Over the past few months and weeks I have been finding my true family. I found them here and in church. I found them in friends and even to an extent with my parents. I agree that I have an opportunity, and I am moving to take it. Sometimes that looks like me running into a brick wall. Sometime I make big strides, like most days here recently. I'm moving at the fastest pace I am comfrotable with. Thank God, I am moving.
-
Hello,
Your story is very sad. You certainly gave it more than the old college try. We must all do what we think is best, and I do not want to presume too much, but sometimes a divorce is less painful for a child than a marital war. It sounds as if your daughter is fairly grown-up now and would be capable of handling this should you decide to take that course.
Whatever you decide, do not doubt your reality. You may never receive from S any validation of what actually happened.
Be good to yourself. Take care, Jo
-
Thanks, Jo. I don't expect to get any agreement on reality from my wife. Ever. I'm also confident that my daughter can come through this with help from me and others.
I am still having the hardest time letting go of this marriage, all reason to the contrary. It's no longer stopping me from preparing for the nasty divorce that I expect from my wife, though. I'm convinced that the problem for me isn't fear of the divorce or of being alone. These seem like a pleasant relief compared to where I am and where I have been.
When I gave my committment to stay together until "death do us part," I meant it. That is the hardest thing for me to give myself permission to break. I'm working away at it a bit each day. The image I have is that I'm cutting all the elastic bands that have been holding us together. Each time I do, one end snaps back and hits me, causing pain. As much as I want them all cut, I need to pace myself to keep the pain manageable. I've already cut many of them and can breathe and even move around some.
Wow, I just realized that I honestly don't think that I can continue to survive in the environment my wife creates. It isn't physical abuse going on. This is more subtle, but it affects me more. With physical abuse, it would be clear to me to leave to protect myself. With the verbal and emotional abuse and the mixed messages of hearing one thing and seeing another, its confusing. No wonder I feel confused and torn about this. Her method of "communication" is to create confusion to avoid awareness. That goes straight to my sensitivity and my desire to create order out of chaos and drives me nuts. My stress level goes through the roof. I could probably tolerate it for short periods of time if I already had a safe, stable, rational home, but why would I choose to? Why would I allow myself to be exposed to that when I have that stable home? I will minimize my exposure to this to what only I have to tolerate to co-parent my daughter. Snap!
Am I really married to S? Or am I married to the disease she has? If it was the disease that I said "I do" how would that have any validity? It doesn't have any validity. Snap!
She hasn't lived up to her committment to "Love, Honor, and Obey" and is unwilling to discuss doing so, and I have done my best to live up to my vows and am willing to work on it. Would I consider keeping any other contract where the other party has defaulted? I won't do that anymore. Snap!
I see myself as being here to help her (co-dependency alert!). She has repeatedly stated that she does not want any help from me. Besides, I believe only a professional therapist can give her the help she needs. I can't help her. Snap!
I've stayed because at times, I've convinced myself that things are improving, despite all evidence to the contrary. Things have only ever gotten worse with her over time, not better. I won't stay with her or anyone else like this without a valid recovery plan from her having concrete promises. It will NEVER happen! Snap!
S is unable to see the good in me. Why should she, she doesn't need to. I keep coming back and letting her use me anyway she wants and take anything she wants. If she can't see the good in me, she doesn't see me. She has no caring feelings for me unless I am actively meeting her needs in some way. This is a one-way "relationship" which is not valid. Her manipulation of me, using my caring against me, is counter to the point of marriage or any caring relationship. Snap!
S has not supported me in doing things that are directly beneficial to her, like saving money and working together to raise our daughter. She has not supported me in things which would be good for me, like hobbies and having my own friends. In fact, she has aggressively and actively opposed me in these and many other positive things. I will not listen to her opinions any longer. Snap!
When I share my inimate feelings and thoughts with her, she uses them to attack me later. She often twists and shares them with others to show how "bad" I am to make herself feel superior or one up on me. She has to be one up one me because she will not lower herself to be equal with me. Snap! Snap! Snap!
Not bad work for today if I say so myself.
-
And there's more....
I failed to make my marriage work. I tried my best, I grew, I learned, but I still failed in this marriage. I've been afraid to admit that and its been a terrible burden. This doesn't mean *I* am a failure. In fact, *I* have never been a better person in my life! That doesn't change the fact that I have failed in this marriage. At the very least, I failed by choosing someone who would not be able to see me and take this journey with me to the end. Along the way, I've had serious problems being selfish, self-centered, and angry. I believe that I have taken from this experience all the growth and awareness I can handle, and its still coming. Don't take this as me beating myself up. I'm not. This is just the truth, and admitting it leaves me feeling lighter and more free than I ever remember feeling before. I admit I failed in this relationship, and I've already pushed myself past my limits. I don't have to be perfect, which is good. I'm not perfect, and I don't have to strive to be anymore. SNAP!!!
I've been operating from a place of emotional deprivation. On one hand, its been very real. First, growing up with my parents, and then living with my wife. The immediate envorinment around me has been rocky ground where hardly anything emotional grows at all. I've been holding onto this relationship with my wife for fear of getting nothing if I lose it. Recent experience both here and out in the real world has shown me that there is a world full of rich emotion and plenty of good people to share it with. I reject the notion that I will lose something irreplaceable by terminating this marriage. I choose the world, full of emotion and friends. Snap!
I've been holding onto the idea that there is one true love for each of us out there. Whether thats true or not, it certainly is not the person I ended up marrying. I believe that there are many wonderful, sensitive, loving women out there who I could be very happy spending my life with. Snap!
Its a relief, but exhausting, to be aware of these beliefs, put them into words, respond to them rationally, and make a conscious choice. Goodnight!
-
Hi longtire,
I bet your therapist sees you as his biggest success story. :-)
I once read in a Zen self-help book that Life throws a lot of challenges, hardships, struggles, everything, at our relationships and sees if the relationship can tolerate it. If a relationship ends, it wasn't strong enough to withstand all the stuff Life threw at it. No one's fault.
bunny
-
Help! Well that's it. I am officially nuts now. Its not fun, but its not as bad I expected.
I bet your therapist sees you as his biggest success story.
I'm don't know about that. He probably has a sore neck from watching me play emotional tennis with myself. Look to the left. Look to the right. Look to the left....
I've been coming into a relationship with God over the past 6 months or so. I've recently joined a church and was just baptized. So, I thought that I should look to the bible/God to see what I needed to do to divorce in a Christian way. Well, the bible clearly says that the only reason to get a divorce is adultery, and even then you still can't remarry while the ex-spouse is alive because that would be further adultery. When you are married in God the two become one flesh that only death separates again. No, no one in the church told me this, I am not being brainwashed. This all came out of research and my own head. Can you see it coming?
After wrestling with this over the weekend, I sat down with my wife and told her that I looked at it and the bible says that I shouldn't get a divorce so I'm not going to. I won't ask you to leave the marriage or the house. I won't make demands on you and will trust God to work things out between us. She said that she was skeptical (she always is) and will wait and see. She also said that she has always been a good Christian and close to God and has prayed a lot throughout our marriage. I told her that I was surprised since I hadn't seen it. When we "tried" to go to church in the past she would always find a fault and refuse to go back. She got a bit snippy at this point and told me that she"had a lot more experience with God," and that she "wasn't going to listen to someone who just found God 6 weeks ago." That may be the first correct thing she's said in the last decade.
I had 2 therapy sessions yesterday. The first was with my old therapist and I talked about feeling uncomfortable with this decision. Part of the discomfort was that I had made a decision based on feelings and faith rather than cold, hard INTJ facts and analysis. On second look, I am glad about that because it balances out the INTJ analytical part of me. We also talked about that any decision I make is good as much as it reflects my values. In other words, its a good decision if it expresses how I really feel. Well, this recent decision to rescind impending divorce only reflected PART of my values, not all of them. Looking back on it after only a couple of days, it was a terrible decision. Urrrghghghh
The second session was with a church counselor. After listening to the back story, he implied but didn't say that he thought it was good that I was pursuing MY judgement of things. I took this to mean making decisions based on my values like the other session. Looking back even from today, I think I was working out so many other issues (a good thing) that I was not aware of the fact that the decision and committment I made to my wife does not express all of my values (very bad thing). That decision is inadequate to expressing my needs/values/whatever.
We also talked briefly in the second session about that since my wife has indicated she would like me to be more physically demonstrable, that I should pursue that route to improving the relationship (5 Love Languages and all that). I didn't feel that I was able to commit to that yesterday but said I would consider it.
Today I am even more incredulous and can't believe what I did! I don't have a problem with religion, God or any of those things. This came out of ME. I realize that I was doing the same thing I always have in this relationship and looking for a way to tolerate an intimacy-less relationship by using religion this time. Let me say again, I don't blame the church, religion or God. God is in my life now and that won't change. But, I used the religious fervor I am feeling to cover up what I was doing so I wouldn't be aware. In one sense, I'm glad that I actually did something that I didn't analyze to death beforehand. On the other hand, that declaration to my wife was bogus because it was not a whole decision on my part.
I'd like to hear from anyone and everyone. I really feel ungrounded at the moment. Give me the good, the bad and the ugly.
-
For me, there is an order of intimacies. First is Verbal intimacy, talking in a connected way and finding out about each other. Second is Emotional intimacy, forming more of a connection, even when not always talking. Third is physical, like hugging, holding hands, affectionate pats, touching the other person's arm or shoulder, etc. The fourth is sexual intimacy. There is also spiritual intimacy which for me seems to go throughout the others. In other words, I want to talk, then feel, then touch, then be sexual, in that order. It is hard for me to jump to physical affection (or sex) when I feel the verbal and emotional intimacy is just plain missing. Now, Emotional and Physical intimacy are pretty close and even swap around for me sometimes, but Verbal is first and Sexual is last. I realize that others have very different, even opposite, order of these things. This order makes sense to me to develop the relationship through talking and feeling before moving to physical contact and sex which can confuse things. This is what makes it hard for me to take the church counselor's advice to pursue a physical relationship with my wife without having the talking or the emotional connection established first. I can even see that it might work and could spark a reaction in my wife, but I would have to violate my own principles and suffer the consequences of that in order to do it.
I am a VERY principle-driven person. If you think I'm bragging about that, think again! No wonder other people never made a lot of sense to me. I assumed they were principle-driven like me and their principles were just really screwed up! I feel like something is shifting in this area for me and I'm losing the primacy of my principles (good thing), but I'm not sure what else is coming into the picture to balance out (up in the air).
What are principles, anyway? "Rules" to live by because "it" will be better? Who defines better? What is "it." Why do I think that an inflexible principle will lead to better things, even aside from the fact that I can't predict tomorrow at all? They are my principles so I must have made them up. Is that it, I'm trying to dump the principles I made up as a kid in a screwed up household? Maybe I'm trying to dump the idea of living by principles to some extent? I don't plan to become a serial killer, because of my principles. I don't think I could give that principle up if I tried. The principles I'm talking about are not the ones at that level. Am I confusing principles for something else that I've lumped in there? How strong should principles be? Shouldn't (dangerous word) my principles be geared to providing my needs and wants getting met in a consistent, long-term way?
If I don't listen or am unaware of my principles, what takes its place? Instinct? Immediate pleasure-seeking? Random luck? How can I stop being limited by my principles and find a good balance between principles which lead me to be responsible and trustworthy and ignore the "principles" that seem geared to keep me locked in emotionally miserable situations? :cry:
-
That last was me again, the post timed out on me.
-
Aurghhhhhh!
told me that she"had a lot more experience with God," and that she "wasn't going to listen to someone who just found God 6 weeks ago."
Longtire! This is arrogant, manipulative, shallow rubbish. I couldn't live with this. No thinking person could live with this.
Intimacy? No way with this gal.
Your relationship with your God is your business, no-one else's. Not even a church's business! No! Have you tried Buddhism? *joke*
Your new fervour is linked to you wanting to experience life, it's linked to your new personal awakening. Hey, men wrote the Bible, not God. Maybe the men got it wrong? Maybe they didn't know when they wrote it what marriage would become? Maybe they didn't realise that women would get rights of their own in time?
Is your marriage towards goodness, or towards harm/unhappiness?
That might answer your question. Go for the good. Sometimes it means ditching the bad.
You could stay married but live separately. But unfortunately our human legal systems don't cater for that.
Longtire, you're human. You don't have to be perfect. You can't be perfect.
-
If I don't listen or am unaware of my principles, what takes its place? Instinct? Immediate pleasure-seeking? Random luck?
Okay, principles, morals, self-respect, feeling good about yourself (self-esteem).....do you think you could ditch those and be the same person?No. Your principles are you. Instinct? Well, that would keep you from starving yourself maybe. Pleasure-seeking? Longtire? I can't see it. What kind of pleasure? Maybe the pursuit of knowledge? I can see that! There is nothing wrong in being greedy for knowledge. But greed is a sin isn't it? How about greedy for enlightenment - is that a sin? Nah.
Random luck, ah. It has a huge part to play in our lives, but we fear it. We like to think we're in control, or someone is in control. We fear chaos and uncertainty. Which is a shame because uncertainty = freedom. Bad things happen to good people and that's the way it is. No explanations, no reasons, just the universe doing what it does. Luck, chance probably got you married in the first place. Well it doesn't mean it was right or that God wanted it. You're such a good man Longtire. Keep thinking!
-
Hi longtire,
I don't think the issue is principles. It's ambivalence. Your ambivalence is massive, and very painful and confusing, because there is something about this situation that you can't bear to relinquish. I don't know what it is. That's something to look at in therapy. It may take a while to learn why you can't surrender to the facts and are still using magical thinking to some degree. Meanwhile you may want to figure out other ways to talk to your wife. What you're doing now isn't working.
bunny
-
It seems to me that what you have now is not a marriage.
LM
-
longtire,
I'm no biblical scholar or theologian, but I have been a Christian for about fifteen years so I can give you my 2c and you can do with them as you will.
I believe you are probably correct about when divorce is scriptually allowed. Other Christians disagree, saying that abandonment and sexual deprivation are also grounds. That is something you should perhaps study further and decide for yourself.
However here is the main point. Jesus tells us not to lie. But I bet if you were approached by a murderer seeking your child, you could lie a blue streak about the childs whereabouts. Is it a sin to lie? Sure. Will you be forgiven that sin? Absolutely. Likewise, have you not raged and screamed at your wife previously? You were forgiven those sins, weren't you?.
Every Christian does things contrary to God's laws, often with premeditation. It is a myth of the world that sincere Christians profess to be better than others. Some charlatans (probably Ns) do, but we know better don't we? We see our own failures every day.
Sometimes, in this rotten world, our only choice is the lesser of two evils. God hates divorce but he also hates abuse. And he especially hates abuse that robs Him of one of His servants.
Right now you are of no use to God because your wife has you turned inside out. You are completely and understandably fixated on the turmoil in your life. It may be that you will have to divorce her in order to survive emotionally. If you do and you believe it to be a sin, you need to ask for forgiveness and it will be given to you. There is only one unpardonable sin and this is not it.
God cares about our heart not our perfection. Look at David. Even after adultery and murder, when he realized his sin and repented he was still called a man after God's own heart. Is your heart right with God even if you disappoint him sometimes? That's what counts.
I won't suggest what you should do. You could seperate from her, you could divorce her or you could try and make it work. It won't, but you could try. I don't know how your daughter (I think you have a daughter) fits into the equation.
Whatever you do decide remember Romans 8:28 "And we know all things work together for good for those who love God.." That doesn't say all things are good, but that he will make something good come from every situation.
And so ends our sermonette for today. With apologies to the assorted buddhists, hindus, atheists etc on the board. He's a Christian so I felt led to talk in Christian terms.
mudpuppy
PS. She also said that she has always been a good Christian and close to God and has prayed a lot throughout our marriage. I told her that I was surprised since I hadn't seen it. When we "tried" to go to church in the past she would always find a fault and refuse to go back. She got a bit snippy at this point and told me that she"had a lot more experience with God," and that she "wasn't going to listen to someone who just found God 6 weeks ago."
Longtire, Christ said he would know true Christians by their fruits. What are your wifes fruits?
-
Thanks for reading and replying all.
Hi longtire,
I don't think the issue is principles. It's ambivalence. Your ambivalence is massive, and very painful and confusing, because there is something about this situation that you can't bear to relinquish. I don't know what it is. That's something to look at in therapy. It may take a while to learn why you can't surrender to the facts and are still using magical thinking to some degree. Meanwhile you may want to figure out other ways to talk to your wife. What you're doing now isn't working.
bunny, the most frustrating thing about all this is that I am aware of everything you say. I am VERY aware of bouncing back and forth and back and forth right now. I'm horrendously ambivalent right now, and I don't know why, and I don't know what to do about it. I used to suffer in silence and "numb out" to avoid feeling it or thinking about. Believe it or not, suffering in great gory, public detail is a huge step forward for me. But I'm still suffering and I haven't been able to identify or address the underlying problem yet. I've identified a bunch of things in this thread that are NOT the underlying problem. I'm starting to get a sense that thinking about it and identifying beliefs and thoughts is not the way to the answer, though not a bad thing in general. I'm not sure what the way to the answer is yet, and maybe I need to work through all this other stuff before I'll be ready to go there. I don't know. :?:
As for talking with my wife, I have tried every way I have ever heard of or thought of and nothing makes a difference. I recognize that's because she's heavily invested in preventing effective thought and communication. Until she publicly admits to obstructing communication between us and commits to stop, I don't see anything I can do and am not putting any energy into trying to "fix" it.
-
Is the problem possibly that you have made a commitment and it is one of your principles to live by your commitment? If so I think it's important to look at what that commitment was. First it was a MUTUAL commitment. It was a commitment to be partners, to share. This type of commitment can ONLY exist with BOTH parties working. As I said earlier what you have doesn't seem to be a marriage to me. That commitment, which takes two people appears to have been broken many years ago.
-
That last post was mine, hopefully I'll get used to this soon.
LM
-
bunny, the most frustrating thing about all this is that I am aware of everything you say. I am VERY aware of bouncing back and forth and back and forth right now. I'm horrendously ambivalent right now, and I don't know why, and I don't know what to do about it.
Stay with the ambivalence and feel ambivalent. Say to yourself, "I can't decide what to do. I don't know what to do. I respect my ambivalence. It's powerful stuff." Ambivalence may want to tell you something. It may be saying, "You have never made a decision yet--you're still letting your parents do it." It may be saying, "You can't decide because you will look bad and you only want her to look bad." Or, "If you are free and happier than *she* ends up, you will feel the worst guilt of anyone ever!" Thoughts will come up that give you more information. I wonder if some of the ambivalence is about giving up control of a familiar situation...that's what I'm feeling.
As for talking with my wife, I have tried every way I have ever heard of or thought of and nothing makes a difference. I recognize that's because she's heavily invested in preventing effective thought and communication.
I think you haven't tried every way to communicate with her, because I see things even in the brief description that I'd do differently if I were you. With that said, maybe it doesn't matter anymore. But then I don't know why you care about all the crap she's saying. That shouldn't matter either, right?
Until she publicly admits to obstructing communication between us and commits to stop, I don't see anything I can do and am not putting any energy into trying to "fix" it.
This does not make sense to me. No one publically admits to obstructing communication. Even I would probably not do it! :-)
bunny
-
Longtire,
Are you looking for reasons not to end the marriage? I truly understand the need to hang on. If my H had not just walked out leaving me no options, I'm sure I would have done anything to try to bring him around. I, in fact, did do many humiliating things to try to convince him to stay that I now regret with every fiber of my being. That he took advantage of my vulnerability and used me and enjoyed doing it, is pain I will live with forever more. But it does give me the strength and conviction to never, ever have any kind of relationship with him again.
After so many years of being with one person, it is very scary to make a change. There are so many changes that accompany a divorce under the best of circumstances, but when you are dealing with an N personality, it really intensifies. One thing I have learned about myself during this process is my great fear of abandonment. I didn't think I would survive his leaving me, but its been 16 months and I am surviving. I am learning what a lousy marriage I had and how much I was depriving myself of the happiness and joy which should accompany a committed relationship. I can now see the possibility of a future of love and intimacy that I only imagined I had.
Perhaps your ambivalence comes from just being worn out. It is draining to deal with these issues day in and day out and wonder what will happen next. I know the anxiety I lived with took every ounce of energy I had. I didn't eat or sleep and lived with constant worry. You need to find a place where you can rest for awhile and reenergize. Perhaps then you will be able to think more clearly and figure out what you really want to do. Think of the process in terms of it being a marathon not a sprint. There will be many hills to climb before you get to the end and you will need to conserve your energy.
Brigid
-
I didn't mean to sound critical, longtire. In case I did, my apologies. I don't see any reason to fix communication with your wife unless you're going to live with her, in which case it might make life easier.
I was also wondering whether you felt in impossible binds as a child? That might make decision-making very dangerous.
bunny
-
Wow, I stepped into some unfamiliar territory and freaked out. Then I freaked out about freaking out. Even though I've been really stressed out the past couple of days, I'm kind of glad to see "proof" that I am an emotional being after all. <delete "You just don't have feelings" brainwashing from wife> I've got 'em and they make me act wierd sometimes just like everyone else I've met! I can't wait until I learn how to learn my lessons without so much disruption, though. Notice the subtle (or not) change to the title of this thread? Thanks for being there for me. I really appreciate it.
mudpuppy, thanks for the viewpoint of a mature Christian. It especially helped me to realize that I'm basically useless to God or anyone else in this state. Also, that love thy neighbor as yourself thing. I'm afraid my wife may actually be doing that, she may hate herself that much. But, that's obviously not the intent of the rule. When I think about it now, I envision my S.O. getting excited and being supportive when I say something like "I've found God and am making changes in my life for the better", not being sarcastic and dismissive. Actually, I'd expect her to know already since we would talk on a daily basis.
As far as fruits, I feel blessed that almost everything I've done has come out great in my life, with the notable exception of this marriage. I have a job where I get to be creative and make great money. I am working to repair my relationship with my daughter. I lost a lot of weight a couple of years ago and having no trouble keeping it off, etc.
Is the problem possibly that you have made a commitment and it is one of your principles to live by your commitment? If so I think it's important to look at what that commitment was. First it was a MUTUAL commitment. It was a commitment to be partners, to share. This type of commitment can ONLY exist with BOTH parties working. As I said earlier what you have doesn't seem to be a marriage to me. That commitment, which takes two people appears to have been broken many years ago.
I believe this is one more piece of the puzzle for me. I did make a commitment to her that was not based on her behavior. In hindsight, that was a mistake. (ya think? :) ) I made this committment so long ago that I don't rememeber what it WAS based on. I expected difficulties and strains in the relationship and believed that I needed to be strong during those times. But, 17 years of neverending "times" was NOT what I envisioned. She used my commitment against me by saying she WAS committed to me as well, but did not back that up by her other words and actions. Then my self doubt would kick in and I'd feel bad for giving her a hard time when she was "trying." This break occurred immediately after we got married.
Stay with the ambivalence and feel ambivalent. Say to yourself, "I can't decide what to do. I don't know what to do. I respect my ambivalence. It's powerful stuff." Ambivalence may want to tell you something. It may be saying, "You have never made a decision yet--you're still letting your parents do it." It may be saying, "You can't decide because you will look bad and you only want her to look bad." Or, "If you are free and happier than *she* ends up, you will feel the worst guilt of anyone ever!" Thoughts will come up that give you more information. I wonder if some of the ambivalence is about giving up control of a familiar situation...that's what I'm feeling.
Here are some things that came up for me around this ambivalence and my more rational responses:
Even though I got better despite her, not because of her, I feel like I am breaking a promise? to help her heal. I think this was an expectation of mine. It could also refer to the "in sickness and in health" from the marriage vows. I differentiate between the sickness and the person, even though they cannot be separated.
Maybe S is actually right, everything is my fault and I am still so sick that I can't see it. If I leave I will only inflict myself on others and never have a relationship even as good?!? as this one. It will only be worse because no one else will tolerate me like she has. That S actually HAS been trying all these years, but I somehow subconsciously prevent it without realizing how. I see that this spew of hatred comes from S, its actually not even mine. If I'm sick and she's healthy, how come she never sat down with me to calmly discuss our options. Oh wait, she did, but I was too sick to see and I twisted it to sound like hateful criticism. :twisted: Every other relationship I have is way better than this one! :lol: Anyone who's tolerating me needs to do themselves a favor and get the hell out of my life!
I won't be able to come back once I leave and realize I've made a mistake. Promise? :D
I'm afraid I will choose someone else just like S unless I learn from this situation. By leaving I will demonstrate that I have learned the most important lesson from this relationship.
I'm afraid I've forgotten or never knew how to have a healthy relationship. I know way more than I ever did in the past, and if I still don't know enough, I'll keep learning.
[/list:u]
Sheesh, when I drag that garbage out into the daylight, its hard for me to believe that these things have been messing me up. What a load of crap, and almost none of it is even mine! bunny, thanks tons for the suggestion to just feel it and accept where I'm at emotionally at any given moment. I still forget that when I'm in the middle of the crap.
As for talking with my wife, I have tried every way I have ever heard of or thought of and nothing makes a difference. I recognize that's because she's heavily invested in preventing effective thought and communication.
I think you haven't tried every way to communicate with her, because I see things even in the brief description that I'd do differently if I were you. With that said, maybe it doesn't matter anymore. But then I don't know why you care about all the crap she's saying. That shouldn't matter either, right?
Just for future reference, what would you do differently?
Until she publicly admits to obstructing communication between us and commits to stop, I don't see anything I can do and am not putting any energy into trying to "fix" it.
This does not make sense to me. No one publically admits to obstructing communication. Even I would probably not do it! :-)
OK, poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was to admit not only to me, but to some of the close friends and family that she has blamed me and smeared my name to.
-
I didn't mean to sound critical, longtire. In case I did, my apologies. I don't see any reason to fix communication with your wife unless you're going to live with her, in which case it might make life easier.
I was also wondering whether you felt in impossible binds as a child? That might make decision-making very dangerous.
Critical, you mean compared to my wife? Ha! You're out of you're league with her. :D
I really do feel that last comment. As a child, I felt that there was something very important for me to do to feel alright, but I didn't know what it was. Neither did my parents (the rest of the known universe). I basically put myself into cryogenic storage with the hope that one day I would know what the right thing to do was and then I could just do it. I was going to ask what you meant by dangerous, but then I realized that the decision or action I didn't know about felt like a life and death matter to me. It doesn't get more dangerous than that. Come to find out the answer is just to feel my feelings and talk about them with safe people. I didn't have safe people who would talk about their feelings around when I was a boy.
I wonder what I can do to help heal and give closure for that. I think I'll try some inner dialogue when I'm done here.
-
Longtire,
Are you looking for reasons not to end the marriage? I truly understand the need to hang on. If my H had not just walked out leaving me no options, I'm sure I would have done anything to try to bring him around. I, in fact, did do many humiliating things to try to convince him to stay that I now regret with every fiber of my being. That he took advantage of my vulnerability and used me and enjoyed doing it, is pain I will live with forever more. But it does give me the strength and conviction to never, ever have any kind of relationship with him again.
No, I'm trying to leave, which I know is the right thing for me. Somehow, I keep bouncing back and forth and haven't been able to just go ahead and do it, yet. I imagine you are confused by this. I know I am! In this case I'm the leaver AND the one with the ambivalence. The bounces are getting faster and more drastic. I hope that means I'm getting closer to just leaving.
After so many years of being with one person, it is very scary to make a change. There are so many changes that accompany a divorce under the best of circumstances, but when you are dealing with an N personality, it really intensifies. One thing I have learned about myself during this process is my great fear of abandonment. I didn't think I would survive his leaving me, but its been 16 months and I am surviving. I am learning what a lousy marriage I had and how much I was depriving myself of the happiness and joy which should accompany a committed relationship. I can now see the possibility of a future of love and intimacy that I only imagined I had.
I think this is about me and my stuff, and doesn't really have to do with her or fear of losing her.
Perhaps your ambivalence comes from just being worn out. It is draining to deal with these issues day in and day out and wonder what will happen next. I know the anxiety I lived with took every ounce of energy I had. I didn't eat or sleep and lived with constant worry. You need to find a place where you can rest for awhile and reenergize. Perhaps then you will be able to think more clearly and figure out what you really want to do. Think of the process in terms of it being a marathon not a sprint. There will be many hills to climb before you get to the end and you will need to conserve your energy.
I identify with this. I have been taking steps to make sure that I eat right and get enough rest. I still have bags under my eyes, though. I believe that I will have to make my decision from this position. Its hard to get the energy to leave when I haven't left yet! I do believe that the majority of this current energy drain is actually me reorganizing and thats an investment in my future. Some of it is just plain stress, though. All of it is hard. Thanks, Brigid.
-
longtire,
I probably could compete with your wife if I wanted to (fortunately, I don't). I have an idea of what she feels like. I was raised by a shrew, so all of us daughters learned how to be one.
What I would do differently would be to avoid talking about the marriage without a therapist present. I wouldn't talk to her about whether she can keep the house and all that stuff. I wouldn't talk to her about God or Christianity. I would not touch any of that with a barge pole. The way to deal with people like this is to be firm and if they start going hysterical (shrew-like, defensive, hyper-vigilant, bitter, outraged) realize that they are terrified at that moment. They are crazy / psychotic. Therefore you must take care of yourself. Tell her you aren't able to continue this discussion and hopefully you can both call your therapists and deal with the situation more calmly later. If this sets off more hysteria you must tell her that you are leaving the room but she isn't a bad person and it's just temporary. No matter what she does, insist that everything will be okay later but right now we both have to calm down. And call your therapist for help! She should also call hers and if she doesn't, I'm afraid it's her problem. I've been there and the husband cannot help the person who has gone temporarily crazy out of control. She may be speaking lucidly but she is, believe me, not rational. And you can't make her rational but you can help her stay together a bit more by (a) not bringing up loaded topics; (b) being firm; and (c) encouraging her to call her therapist. If she won't, it's not your problem.
P.S. If you are talking about the possibility of separation or divorce in your therapy session, you might ask the therapist how you are supposed to deal with the feelings during the week.
bunny
-
Is the problem possibly that you have made a commitment and it is one of your principles to live by your commitment? If so I think it's important to look at what that commitment was. First it was a MUTUAL commitment. It was a commitment to be partners, to share. This type of commitment can ONLY exist with BOTH parties working. As I said earlier what you have doesn't seem to be a marriage to me. That commitment, which takes two people appears to have been broken many years ago.
I believe this is one more piece of the puzzle for me. I did make a commitment to her that was not based on her behavior. In hindsight, that was a mistake. (ya think? :) ) I made this committment so long ago that I don't rememeber what it WAS based on. I expected difficulties and strains in the relationship and believed that I needed to be strong during those times. But, 17 years of neverending "times" was NOT what I envisioned. She used my commitment against me by saying she WAS committed to me as well, but did not back that up by her other words and actions. Then my self doubt would kick in and I'd feel bad for giving her a hard time when she was "trying." This break occurred immediately after we got married.
Didn't you make this commitment to her BASED on her making the same commitment to you? You are correct your commitment wasn't based on her behavior and I don't think that was a mistake. I think your commitment was BASED on her mutual commitment to you. However her behavior INDICATES whether or not she does in fact have this commitment to you. I think that's how that all works out. There is no marriage when the commitment is only held by one party. That's why Paul says to stay with an unbeliever if they want to stay in the MARRIAGE, marriage meaning a commitment BY TWO PEOPLE. If they don't want to stay you are free. Now her words at time may say she wants to stay, but her actions show otherwise. The bible says lot's about that also, about actions being different than the words. It talks about that for a very good reason, because words are cheap, actions show the heart. So what is it that she is really committed to, doesn't it all revolve around finances and material things? The bible speaks lot's about that also. So again what is she committed to, is it JUST a financial arrangement? A financial arrangement is not what a marriage is, this was not the agreement that you entered into, it appears that she is not interested in the agreement that the two of you entered into.
-
I probably could compete with your wife if I wanted to (fortunately, I don't). I have an idea of what she feels like. I was raised by a shrew, so all of us daughters learned how to be one.
God forbid. I am grateful for your empathy, insight and restraint here.
I agree about not talking about loaded subjects with her, but honestly I'm not sure there ARE unloaded topics between her and I. I think she uses M, or my presence, as the primary trigger to "justify" her regression. It is like living with a 7 or 8 year old in an adult body. Actually, it is that, its not only like it. I think its only a difference of degree for her and she doesn't really ever come out of a juvenile mindset all the way. I already knew this, but lost sight of it during my recent temporary insanity.
P.S. If you are talking about the possibility of separation or divorce in your therapy session, you might ask the therapist how you are supposed to deal with the feelings during the week.
The primary topic for me in therapy is "why am I so ambivalent about taking this step even though I believe is the right one for me?" I will ask my therapist for advice on handling my feelings, but I think you nailed when you reminded me to just feel the feelings and see where that leads me, rather than trying to "do" something about them right away.
I had an inner dialogue last night and reassured "little Thad" that he did not need to keep holding onto making that "Big Unkown Decision" anymore. I think I convinced him that I'm an adult now, I understand the problem and know exactly what to do about it, and it works with everyone else in my life but my wife. I also praised him for doing such an excellent job protecting "us" until we could figure it out. And all without help from any adults! Good job!
The BUD was how to feel my feelings, acknowledge them, share them with others and get my needs and wants met. Interdependence. A lot of my ambivalence has been around this early issue for me. As a kid I told myself "I CAN'T figure this out, it doesn't make any sense to me," and "I'll go into emotional hibernation until I somehow figure it out one day, even though I can't see how I'll possibly ever do that right now." The good news is, as a kid I trusted, or at least hoped, that the adult me would be able to figure this out one day. That makes it a lot easier for my inner child to trust now.
-
longtire,
mudpuppy, thanks for the viewpoint of a mature Christian.
I didn't say I was mature, only that I had been one for 15 years. BIG difference. :)
It especially helped me to realize that I'm basically useless to God or anyone else in this state.
Sorry about the way I put that. There had to be a better way of saying it. I'm glad you took it the way I intended.
As far as fruits, I feel blessed that almost everything I've done has come out great in my life, with the notable exception of this marriage. I have a job where I get to be creative and make great money. I am working to repair my relationship with my daughter. I lost a lot of weight a couple of years ago and having no trouble keeping it off, etc.
On this I disagree a little, except for the part about your daughter. You have a lot of blessings, but those aren't your fruit. Our blessings come from God, our fruit is what we do for others and whether it comes from the heart. Your fruit is reaching out for years to a wife who rejected you, caring about your daughter, being hurt by the necessity of leaving your wife. Men look at how much you make, how much you weigh, the facade we project. God looks at our hearts and what our heart produces. On that score I think you are a total success. Your marriage didn't fail for lack of effort on your part, it failed because of your wifes heart, or lack of one.
God bless.
mudpuppy
-
Longtire, have you ever had in-depth long conversations with your wife where she displayed a range of emotions and remained rational? Conversations about important things? I don’t think she regresses as such, I think she’s probably at that age all the time. She isn’t ever at the same emotional and intellectual level as you.
Are you ambivalent about leaving or simply plain scared? Fear of the unknown would be understandable and ‘normal’. Giving up all the familiar things you know could be both frightening and exhilarating. Perhaps your ambivalence is simply procrastination, putting off those powerful feelings of fear and excitement?
Temporary insanity - do you mean not being in control of your thoughts and feelings? That’s not insanity Longtire, that’s probably creativity at work, seeing new possibilities for your self.
-
I agree about not talking about loaded subjects with her, but honestly I'm not sure there ARE unloaded topics between her and I. I think she uses M, or my presence, as the primary trigger to "justify" her regression. It is like living with a 7 or 8 year old in an adult body. Actually, it is that, its not only like it. I think its only a difference of degree for her and she doesn't really ever come out of a juvenile mindset all the way. I already knew this, but lost sight of it during my recent temporary insanity.
In that case I would keep 7 year old abilities in mind when talking to her about anything.
The primary topic for me in therapy is "why am I so ambivalent about taking this step even though I believe is the right one for me?"
Maybe you are ambivalent because in childhood there were all these lose-lose situations and no role modeling of adult decision making. You had no idea how people made decisions, on what basis, what was a legitimate reason, etc. I was in the same boat (if this resonates) and I started telling myself, as you are doing, that I am an adult now and the harsh internal parents, and the immature child-like parts, cannot make the decisions anymore. It's no longer their job and they can do something else useful but not that.
Your inner dialogue was that kind of thing.
It seems even as a child you had some inner reserves and that's what's saving you. :P
bunny
-
Lontire: I am sorry that so much of this struggle appears to be yours and not so much your wife's. Is that correct? She is just there, not actively engaged in this looming divorce?
Whatever the case, you might consider that despite her failings, she has a life of her own, and staying with her out of pity/ambivelence/fear/guilt or whateverelse isn't truly love is just plain unkind. Even if she is a "child" in an adult's body, she still deserves the respect of trusting that her life path is hers to own, that she can and will walk on it, and deserves to find that out.
Even my mean and screwed up ex N has the same opportunity we all have to heal...the lessons will be (and are) presented to him equally. I honor and understand his path, his right to be a jerk if he so chooses. I will not hold my breath or be his victim until he chooses to learn, but I respect his humanity all the same.
Just some ramblings on respecting your wife enough to leave her.
-
Longtire, have you ever had in-depth long conversations with your wife where she displayed a range of emotions and remained rational? Conversations about important things? I don’t think she regresses as such, I think she’s probably at that age all the time. She isn’t ever at the same emotional and intellectual level as you.
No, we've never had those kinds of conversions, though I crave them from my soul. I thought we did have them before we got married, but I see that she was either just agreeing with me or saying what she thought I wanted to hear in order to keep me around. She has admitted to being sexually active with me before marriage to keep me around as well. Once we got married, even the appearance of verbal, emotional, physical, sexual, and spritiual intimacy ended immediately.
There were some discoveries before marriage like "Wow, I didn't know you didn't like dark chocolate!" However, there was not any "Wow, I like sex and you don't. How are we going to work this out?" From todays viewpoint, I see that it was very shallow and unhealthy. She used me a substitute for her mother. It is only in the last 6 months that she has been able to ever remember that I'm NOT actually her mother, I'm someone else. I agree that she has never been present as an adult in our relationship. The counselor we had been seeing (before my wife quit) stated that my wife never developed a personality, just coping mechanisms, and I agree with that assessment.
Are you ambivalent about leaving or simply plain scared? Fear of the unknown would be understandable and ‘normal’. Giving up all the familiar things you know could be both frightening and exhilarating. Perhaps your ambivalence is simply procrastination, putting off those powerful feelings of fear and excitement?
When confronted with the true nature of our relationship after we got married, I couldn't cope and I shut down. The scale of the betrayal and abandonment was overwhelming to me. Before I got married I either ignored (love is blind), or minimized the shortcomings in our relationship. After the marriage, I continued on in denial and started a downward spiral into depression. I had to address the depression first in order to be able to function on a higher level again.
I couldn't become aware enough to know that I need to leave this bad situation without also becoming aware of my needed growth that I have neglected all these years. As my awareness about leaving increases, my awareness about growing increases as well. Its not ambivalence or fear that has been holding me back, though both these are present. What I thought was ambivalence is really just bouncing back and forth between doing the work of leaving and doing the work of growing. There is certainly some overlap between them, but I also am seeing a lot of personal growth that doesn't have anything to do with my wife. Deeper childhood issues and family of origin stuff.
Temporary insanity - do you mean not being in control of your thoughts and feelings? That’s not insanity Longtire, that’s probably creativity at work, seeing new possibilities for your self.
My subconscious has been doing a splendid job of getting my attention lately. I believe this latest experience was one more demonstration of that. What I was calling insane a couple of days ago, I'm calling an awakening today. And more importantly, I'm grateful for it now. I was not consciously in control of those events, but they were not random or unrelated like they would be if I were truly insane. These feelings and actions were VERY deeply relevant and helpful. I FELT insane and out of control at the time, but I just wasn't appreciating and trusting my subconscious co-pilot enough.
-
bunny, I agree with everything you said above. I'm not sure that "little Thad" has completely transferred every last crumb of that over to the adult me, but I'm operating from a very different place today than I ever have in my life. I know that transfer is significantly made already by what I think and feel. Hallelujah!
Lontire: I am sorry that so much of this struggle appears to be yours and not so much your wife's. Is that correct? She is just there, not actively engaged in this looming divorce?
Whatever the case, you might consider that despite her failings, she has a life of her own, and staying with her out of pity/ambivelence/fear/guilt or whateverelse isn't truly love is just plain unkind. Even if she is a "child" in an adult's body, she still deserves the respect of trusting that her life path is hers to own, that she can and will walk on it, and deserves to find that out.
Even my mean and screwed up ex N has the same opportunity we all have to heal...the lessons will be (and are) presented to him equally. I honor and understand his path, his right to be a jerk if he so chooses. I will not hold my breath or be his victim until he chooses to learn, but I respect his humanity all the same.
Just some ramblings on respecting your wife enough to leave her.
I agree. I just need to get enough of my other stuff out of the way so I can make this step. A month ago or so I listed the reasons why I "felt" I had to stay in this relationship. One of them was that "I can help my wife heal more by staying here." The rational self-talk that I responded to myself with said "You haven't so far. As long as you are around as a convenient whippping boy and distraction, she won't grow. She may not grow if you leave either, but it opens the door for that to happen." Basically, I need to give up the last codependent part of that and acknowledge that S has sole RESPONSIBILITY and rights for her own growth.
-
Longtire,
My N H is also very immature--emotionally about 16 right now (his son is light years ahead of him at 20). He also viewed me as his mother for much of our 22 years of marriage which I now believe was the reason for his very limited interest in sex (who wants to have sex with their mother?).
Its always fascinating to me to see the common threads among these postings.
Brigid
-
Brigid, Longtire. Interesting thought on the mother thing. My ex certainly treated me the way his dad treated his mother (crappy) except that I never acted like his mom....who is now an agorophobic widow.....I fought back and divorced the jerk, but perhaps that explains all his affairs. Naw, he just did and does whatever he wants because he wants to and only he counts in his world........still it's a very interesting idea.
-
What I was calling insane a couple of days ago, I'm calling an awakening today. And more importantly, I'm grateful for it now. I was not consciously in control of those events, but they were not random or unrelated like they would be if I were truly insane. These feelings and actions were VERY deeply relevant and helpful. I FELT insane and out of control at the time, but I just wasn't appreciating and trusting my subconscious co-pilot enough.
Thank goodness Longtire and thank you for your reply. I find these 'out of control' feelings and thoughts quite frightening sometimes. And I find it difficult to trust that subconcsious co-pilot. I often wonder if it's acting out, rather than doing me good, and I start to doubt and doubt...but your awakening and progress is amazing. I'll just read here and maybe learn from now on I think. Thank you.
-
Longtire,
My N H is also very immature--emotionally about 16 right now (his son is light years ahead of him at 20). He also viewed me as his mother for much of our 22 years of marriage which I now believe was the reason for his very limited interest in sex (who wants to have sex with their mother?).
Brigid, I agree. When you couple that with my wife operating on an ~8 year old emotional level (my opinion) despite her 30-something body, it must be like an 8yo having sex with her mother. Eewww! No wonder she did everything she could to avoid having sex. Still, *I* had to put a stop to us having sexual relations several years ago. She was willing to do it on an infrequent basis, but it always felt wrong to me. No intimacy, caring or sharing. I always felt worse afterwards and didn't understand. Now I know why. shivers
-
Longtire,Having sex without love is empty, sad, pathetic. That alone, said your marriage was over. Been there.....luckily will never be again.
-
What I was calling insane a couple of days ago, I'm calling an awakening today. And more importantly, I'm grateful for it now. I was not consciously in control of those events, but they were not random or unrelated like they would be if I were truly insane. These feelings and actions were VERY deeply relevant and helpful. I FELT insane and out of control at the time, but I just wasn't appreciating and trusting my subconscious co-pilot enough.
Thank goodness Longtire and thank you for your reply. I find these 'out of control' feelings and thoughts quite frightening sometimes. And I find it difficult to trust that subconcsious co-pilot. I often wonder if it's acting out, rather than doing me good, and I start to doubt and doubt...but your awakening and progress is amazing. I'll just read here and maybe learn from now on I think. Thank you.
Wow. I always feel grateful for the inherent acknowledgement when someone thanks me for "just" sharing my experience. That is so different than my past experiences as a child with my parents and with my wife. Thank you.
When my copilot starts to kick in, my immediate instinct is to remain in control and fight it. But, my copilot ALWAYS wins in the end. So the battle escalates until I snap because of all the built up pressure. I'm starting to recognize it while this is happening and able to be curious about it. The last couple of times, though, I still fought until someone reminded me to let go, feel the feelings, and go with the flow instead of fighting the current. As soon as I did this, the pressure dissipated and I was able to embrace the change pretty quickly.
As for my progress and awakening, I spent my life up until this point pretty much shutdown all the time. I was not very aware and I was not making progress, though I was laying a lot of the foundations for the progress I am seeing now. I've always been a deep thinker and very spiritual and I believe these things kept me going for a long time. In a sense, I feel like I already "paid ahead" for a lot of this progress and am receiving it now as fast as I can respond and integrate it. I have always been able to ponder and grow intellectually, so I've already done a lot of that part of the work. What I wasn't able to comprehend until pretty recently was the experiential aspect of gorwing. In other words, I could sit around and think about it all day long, but didn't really know how to put it into practice.
Basically, what I'm saying is that I don't think this pace or level of change is common or to be expected. It certainly is often painful, exhausting and uncomfortable for me. I expect the pace and the drama to slow down as I learn to go with the flow instead of fighting. Go at your own pace and in your own way while loving yourself and you'll be fine.
-
Longtire,Having sex without love is empty, sad, pathetic. That alone, said your marriage was over. Been there.....luckily will never be again.
Amen
-
Help! My wife is being nice to me tonight. I'm serious. I don't know what to do. I was doing really well and making progress on leaving, then she starts acting OK and I'm questioning everything again. :? Progress is fickle. I need a reality check.
We had a co-parent talk with our daughter about her grades tonight. Overall very good, but really slipped in her hardest classes. We talked with our daughter, did some problem solving, set time limits, she promised to talk to her teachers, etc. That actually went well, my wife and I have often been able to coparent effectively since the focus is on our daughter. Not always, but often.
After our daughter had left, my wife told me "I want to apologize, you were right. I think its better for <our daughter> to pay us back for her car out of her allowance, not her house cleaning money like you said." I was stunned (and thought WHO is this?) and said "thank you." Then she was small talking like everything was normal after that. I honestly don't remember the last time she apologized to me for anything that wasn't in a snotty tone of voice. This seemed very genuine.
You see, she still believes that divorce is permanently off the table. I haven't gone back to tell her that I am considering (actually planning details) for divorce. I'm afraid to tell her. I'm not ready to move out yet, probably another week or two, since I really underestimated the amount of info to gather and all the decisions that I need to make beforehand. I expect that she will take the news badly when I tell her "I made a mistake and can't live up to the claim I made. I am getting a divorce after all." I expect that I'll need to leave the house at that point.
This is the first time we have talked since last weekend after my much regretted statement to her. She has been spending every evening when I'm home out of the house, except to sleep.
What is going on here? Is she nice because her cash supply is secured? Is she nice because she had a change of heart over me telling her I wouldn't divorce? Has something shifted for her in counseling? Is everything OK because I'm not threatening her self-image at the moment by ruling out divorce? Am I making a mistake by leaving now? Has she turned the corner?
Yeah, I know that it is soooo telling that I'm not even willing to ask her, I'm on here asking all of you these questions. Still, I need a reality check from someone who understands and who I trust. Writing this paragraph is enough for my head, but not my heart.
-
Ok, minor update. She must have had a counseling session today, because she talked some more with me about not going to church regularly until she figures out her spirituality and God issues from her childhood. She said she will talk with our daughter to let her know whats going on and make sure our daughter doesn't feel any pressure to either go or not go to church. She also wants to set a limit for big spending items, like car repairs or big medical expenses, where we talk with each other before going ahead with it.
I'm leaning toward thinking this may be for real. How long can it last before the old stuff comes back again? Plus, there would be all the work of undoing the damage of the last 17 years.
Nothing is ever easy!
-
Did I mention that I'm wondering if I should come clean to my wife. Now, I feel guilty for not being honest with her. Always in the past I've been honest with her to the best of my ability. Always in the past that caused problems. I don't like lying, even by omission, or keeping secrets. Am I making too much of this?
-
Longtire,
Still, I need a reality check from someone who understands and who I trust.
I have no idea if you trust me but see my opinions below.
What is going on here?
She's trying to play on you as on a stringed instrument!
Is she nice because her cash supply is secured?
Bingo!
Is she nice because she had a change of heart over me telling her I wouldn't divorce?
No! I don't think she has one.
Has something shifted for her in counseling?
No! Something shifted in her circumstances.
Is everything OK because I'm not threatening her self-image at the moment by ruling out divorce?
Ding,ding ding ding! We have a winner!
Am I making a mistake by leaving now?
I can't remember the situation with your daughter so I'm not going to give an opinion. I'll leave that for others to weigh in on.
Has she turned the corner?
If she is a true N, there is no corner to turn. She's like a Mobius strip, there's only one side to her, nothing inside.
An illustration: My brother lost control of a corporation through his own Nness. For a year and a half he engaged in the most bizarre shenanigans to regain control of it. In the process he alienated everyone associated with it. Through some truly underhanded dealings he regained control. As soon as everyone gave up fighting him, suddenly people who days earlier were criminals, liars, crooks and thieves were transformed into (in his mind) his friends and coworkers. When their world is threatened its nuclear war, when they think its restored all is forgiven; they even reach out in new ways, until the first time their fantasy world is threatened again.
That's my 2cents. That's probably about what its worth, but at some point you have to fish or cut bait. First you have to decide what you're dealing with. She seems clearly to be an N. Have you decided this yet? To you is she an N? Once you've done that make your decision. If you know its right when you're thinking clearly, then don't get your head clouded by phony Nisms. She is twisting you like a pretzel.
I can't remember how old your daughter is. If you stayed in a dead marriage for her until she was old enough to leave I would respect you for that. If you're staying because you think your wife will get fixed I don't see it. Unless she has some fixable disorder masquerading as N. Not likely.
Sorry I'm not more lovey dovey about this but I needed an outsider to kick me in the arse good and hard fifteen years ago. If one had I would have been spared a world of hurt, and self deception.
You HAVE to determine to your satisfaction, noone else's, if she has full blown NPD or is strongly N. If she is she is basically hopeless. She'll not change. Until you know that you're going to be tied up in knots of indecision and blown this way and that by every mood swing she has.
God bless you longtire, I pray you make the decision God would have you make and I pray you aren't deceived.
Sorry for another long one.
mudpup
Ps. Your thread has gotten so long I hope I haven't misspoken about something you've already discussed. If I have misspoken my apologies.
-
Longtire: do you love her or just feel sorry for her/guilty for you?
I understand wanting sooo much to have what you thought you could with someone. And when reality of years and events show us we've never really had "that", we get confused, especially when we see even a glimmer of hope.
I may have this wrong, but I don't remember you saying it was years of bliss and your relationship has suddenly become difficult. One night. Tonight. Is it an illusion, like the one that got you into this marriage?
And can you honestly say that you would like to take this wonderful, beautiful person to your side and walk with her proudly in public, make passionate love to her endlessly in private, spend all of your days connected to and concerned with her soul? Is she the one person you feel most yourself with and most complete with?
Yes? Then stay and do all those things with all your heart, commit all over again and don't look back.
No? Respect her enough to leave. Everybody wants to be wanted, everybody (including her) deserves that.
I'm sorry this is so hard...it is hard because you are a good man.
-
mudpup,
Yeah, don't worry about keeping up with this thread, its actually sort of turned into my online journal or blog. It really helps me when writing to slow down and sort my thoughts out. Plus, when others read it they can challenge me when I'm being unreasonable. :)
As far as NPD, I'm not sure my wife fits the "classic" image or definition of NPD. I just wrote that, but let me check it out. I think one thing that confuses me is that she shows ONLY her social facade to everyone else. To coworkers she is the outgoing, fun, center of attention and the sacrificing, supportive shoulder to cry on. She is always ready with a story (often the same stories). She claims that everyone who doesn't just love her either has no sense of humor or no personality. So, maybe there ARE people who see through the facade. I believe that I "get" to see the real her at home. Things that she would never consider doing in public, in front of other people, she has no problem doing to me. I feel like I bring out the worst in her and that I'm her dumping ground for all the emotional stuff that she accumulates during the day. Instead of dealing with it, it just gets projected onto me. Ok I'm already starting to believe...
This is from the DSM-IV-TR diagnostic manual. It seems to be about the only thing about NPD on the internet that WASN'T written by Sam Vaknin. :) I've bolded the items that seem to fit my wife and added my own minimal comments in italics. Some criteria seem to fit, but with modification. I'm not a doctor, and I don't play one on the internet, etc....
Diagnostic criteria for 301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder (cautionary statement)
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following: I'm not sure these things are present in a variety of contexts. I'm not always present there, but I feel like I'm the main target for most of this behavior.
(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) She expects everyone to see how charming, empathetic, fun and superior she is. Dismisses and denigrates anyone who doesn't agree. When daughter was a baby told me I didn't know how to do anything right, did it all herself, and was furious with me for not doing more. Talk about a double bind! I finally told her that "I am her father, am capable, and love her just as much as you," then kicked her out of the house for an afternoon and said "we will be just fine without you for a while, get out." Doing for her daughter is the only thing I have ever seen her really genuinely sacrifice for. I think this might be part of the "I'm a great mom" moral superiority thing. I think she loves her daughter in there somewhere too.
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love Not really. I get the sense that she draws her main "power" from being morally superior. While her mother ignored her, supressed her personality and used her, she also called her perfect and told her she had to be perfect to sustain her mothers life. My wife seems to feel this moral superiority is what makes her special and superior. Thus, showing empathy for a mistreated animal shows how morally superior she is and feeds her. Being a martyr like her mother does the same thing, but reminds her of her mother so she doesn't do that much with me, but plays the "martyr with the broken, hurtful husband" (me) to get sympathy from others.
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) Believes anyone who does not see her the way she sees herself is incredibly dense, hopelessly socially inept and out of touch. Dehumanizes and demeans anyone who does not agree with her about her. Almost always views situations with her either one-up or one-down. Either in control (safe) or a victim (unsafe), but rearely equal.
(4) requires excessive admiration Attention/Admiration. She often has children bow down to her or call her "Queen" to get what they want. She makes it a fun game, but it always embarasses me when I see it. Starts telling everyone a month ahead of time that her birthday is coming up. Note, it is NOT necessarily a bad thing to let people know you want some attention, but she makes a really big deal about the whole thing.
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations Expects to be able to spend whatever she wants without having to consider where the money actually comes from. This has gotten better since she started working full time and learned how hard it is to earn money. Expects to have all her phsyical needs catered to without having to lower herself to mutually meeting needs of someone else. Expects everyone to agree with her on important things and is indignant when they have their own view. always expects me to go first and fix the situation completely before she believes she is obligated to respond in any positive way.
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends Used to seek out the neediest people around and give, unasked, to them to show how caring and supportive she was. Then got angry and left because they were not grateful enough and did not do enough for her in return. She wouldn't ask them to do what she wanted in return, she was just indignant that they didn't just do it. Has abused me financially for many years. Uses denial and suppression to avoid unpleasant awareness in realtionships.
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others Consistenly uses denial to avoid feeling empathy with me. I'm "crazy" to be hurt by something she "never" said or that "never" happened. Is unwilling to entertain my preceptions, feelings, thoughts, etc. if it paintd a less than glorious picture of her. Dismisses as defective anyone who disagrees with her self view.
(8 ) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her She would really, really like to be rich. Lack of money doesn't seem to inhibit her spending. If she sees money in the account, she believes that it will go to waste unless she spends it. Doesn't "understand" that there are always outstanding checks that need to be cashed against the account. Not her problem. Always visiting the most expensive model homes as entertainment.
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes Does telling me she's "perfectly fine, and I'm the one who brought all the problems into our marriage" qualify?
DSM-IV Definition of BPD
1. A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
2. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5). I have talked about the dance of death here before. That is where she maintains an exact emotional distance between us. If I get too close, she says and does hateful things to get me to back off. When I pull back to far and talk about leaving, she gets nice again for a while to pull me back in.
3. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. This is called "splitting." Either you're great if you meet her requirements and she will do anything for you, or you're damaged and defective if you conflict. She doesn't seem to grant inherent worth to a person except when it gives her moral superiority to do so.
4. Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self. As per counselor. Her mother prevented her from developing a personality. My wife has stated in counseling that she often feels empty and has looked for many things to fill that up in the past, mainly feelings, but overeating high fat high carb dite. She does weight watchers and excercises now. Maybe feeling less empty these days?
5. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5). I would include her eating habits in this as well. Early on in marriage I found cookies hidden in a sock drawer. I never got on her case about eating, she was generally embarassed by it at that time. Going out to eat is her favorite all time activity, eating, entertaining an audience and living the high life.
6. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior. No.
7. Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days). Gets really angry and hateful and then suddenly changes back to "normal." I never see or hear why her mood shifts, it just does. We never discuss the issue or other wise work it out. Where does all that anger and hate go? It usually came out passive-aggressive. She claims to be able to express her anger more directly in words and not be PA anymore. That may be progress, but the words, tone, facial expression are still anger and hatred.
8. Chronic feelings of emptiness. She has reported this.
9. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights). Only with me. She does have some ability to hold onto those feelings, but seems to need a target to discharge all of that on, instead of processing it herself. None of the "typical" BPD physical abuse or rage, she lets that out in other ways like overspending, PA, witholding intimacy and sex.
10. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms. Dissociation is the state in which, on some level or another, one becomes somewhat removed from "reality," whether this be daydreaming, performing actions without being fully connected to their performance ("running on automatic"), or other, more disconnected actions. It is the opposite of "association" and involves the lack of association, usually of one's identity, with the rest of the world. The way she describes it, I suddenly freak out for no reason in the middle aof a perfectly calm discussion. The way I remember it, she snaps and spews out vile hatred and then acts shocked, SHOCKED, when I respond angrily. She claims to have no memory of these events, but remembers everything before, and my "out of the blue" reaction after.
So, I'm not sure this proves anything, but it does remind me of all the things that would absolutely have to go before I would consider staying in this realtionship. I think my wife has elements of both NPD and BPD. I especially relate the entitled aspects of NPD without the overt grandioseness and the lack of personality and dissociation from BPD. However, I firmly believe that people do NOT fit into neat little boxes the way the DSM-IV describes. Any person is always way more complex and deep than any description could ever do justice.
And, just so you know, I have had Major Depression with strong AvoidantPD tendencies and all kinds of other issues from growing up in an emotionally neglectful home and being bullied. I'm NOT saying I'm perfect and its all her fault. Right from the start of our marriage I admitted that I had issues just like she had and that I cared and was willing to discuss and work on my issues.
And you thought this thread was long before.... :twisted:
-
Longtire,
I'd like to share with you a little bit of my situation with my family and growing up as the only daughter of someone with NPD. If I am repeating some of what has already been said, I apologize.
Over the past year, I have come up with some very sad conclusions regarding my mother (and several other members of my family) but I will concentrate on her b/c she is the one who still continually reaches out - although in a hostile and angry way. I have decided that I cannot engage with her when she is like this. I would like to but I can't. I have tried many times to engage with her - as it sounds with you and your wife - and she without fail - is somehow hardwired to try and manipulate me if she sees *an opening.* Sad but true.
Its an ongoing dilemma. And I think it is a good thing for you to be posting on this board. I am where I am today - though not in a perfect place - b/c of some of the mature and wise people I have met here. I associate my four years of therapy with the a "moribund" therapist as part of my lost years. But they were not years lost in vain and you might look back on this time, later, and see it similarly. It sounds so.
I can empathize with the frustratrion you feel and the sorrow. But where there is sorrow, there can be no love and you deserve to be loved and to love someone in return who is capable of loving and respecting you and sharing life together on that level.
Yes, I fall back into patterns or conditioning all too easily but its amazing how quickly I can see that *that* is what I am doing now. You've lived with you wife for a considerable amount of time and now maybe the time when you've basically said, *enough is enough* but you are a good person and want the best for everyone. What I've learned is that you can only rescue yourself. No one can give us *the best* for us..we have to find it and give it to ourselves. And when that started happening with me...
- my mother became more threatened and, therefore, more angry and manipulative.
- I started respecting myself more and, as a result, started avoiding places and people (mother included) where I felt disrespected.
Like you, I realized I had issues and was willing to work on them and discuss them with my mother and anyone else in my family but that alone isn't going to make the difference.
At this point, I accept my mother for being who she is but I can choose how much I want to engage/interact with her. I moved thousands of miles away and started working in a different country - where I still live. She still had that noose around my neck. I found this board and the untangling started. People here make a lot of sense for the most part. I'm glad you don't feel alone anymore.
Longtire, *do* what you love....it will take you to the right place. And I say this b/c you don't strike me as being a selfish person. On the contrary.
A big hug.
-
Longtire: do you love her or just feel sorry for her/guilty for you?
I understand wanting sooo much to have what you thought you could with someone. And when reality of years and events show us we've never really had "that", we get confused, especially when we see even a glimmer of hope.
I may have this wrong, but I don't remember you saying it was years of bliss and your relationship has suddenly become difficult. One night. Tonight. Is it an illusion, like the one that got you into this marriage?
And can you honestly say that you would like to take this wonderful, beautiful person to your side and walk with her proudly in public, make passionate love to her endlessly in private, spend all of your days connected to and concerned with her soul? Is she the one person you feel most yourself with and most complete with?
Yes? Then stay and do all those things with all your heart, commit all over again and don't look back.
mum, through the forgiveness process (that I am still in the middle of) I have shed the anger and rage and come to love her in a moral sense. In the "Road Less Travelled" sense of wanting to aid her inner growth, not to hurt or hinder. I do not feel remantic love for my wife and haven't for years. I was happy and "in love" while we were dating and engaged. When we got married, she changed for the worse and I have been miserable in every day of this marriage. We don't have any "great years" or months or weeks to look back on. The best memories I have with her are mundane, life is OK right now memories. In itself thats not a bad thing, but there are no peak or great memories to support the others.
I don't trust her or feel safe around her. I feel that I have to be always on guard around her. I can't see how she would ever be able to accept me as I am and celebrate me and cherish me. Knowing where she is at right now, I couldn't bring myself to has sex with her and don't even want to touch or be touched by her because that reminds of the verbal and emotional abuse. Without safe, open and voluntary verbal communication, I have NO WAY of knowing where she is at emotionally and whats going on. I have to guess, but recent talks were still abusive with the "That didn't happen." I can't take that anymore. It physically affects me to hear that from her.
To answer your question in the first quote. I think it is guilt for me. Guilt that I wasn't able to help her heal, to help her get to a place where we could be happy together. Guilt that I wasn't good enough or able to heal myself quickly enough to save the relationship. These don't feel like "should haves" but more like regrets.
The thing that kept me alive as a kid, that gave me the strength to put myself in emotional stasis was hope and belief that I would be OK one day. The belief that I could be saved, that I could be healed. I think I applied that to my wife and thats been a powerful tie to cut. If I admit that she can't be saved or that I can't save her, then I admit that I might not have made it. I could have died alone, unknown and unappreciated. Writing this I have a tear in my eye and can feel the fear, sadness, and loneliness that I felt, that she must feel. What I wouldn't have given to have someone stick by me and help me up and out until I was healthy. I so wanted and still want her to have that. Part of it is feeling empathy and caring for her in a dark place. I know something about that. Part of it is selfish to prove that I really am alright now. If I can help someone who is worse off than I was, then I must finally be done working and I can rest in myself.
I can see that this position is very codependent. I wanted nothing more than someone to see me and help me out of that terrible, dark place. In an ideal world, my parents "should" have helped me with that, but they didn't know how to do it for themselves. I wanted someone to parent me, which is understandable, but in the end, I had to do it myself, including the things my parents might have done. I had to do the work myself, though not without support from many people. I'm really being very selfish by trying to "give" her this "gift" of parenting so that in some vicarious way, I would feel like I had gotten this gift myself.
No? Respect her enough to leave. Everybody wants to be wanted, everybody (including her) deserves that.
I'm sorry this is so hard...it is hard because you are a good man.
I have been holding on thinking that "maybe its working, maybe I'm helping, maybe things are getting better." Maybe those things are happening, but that is irrelevant. I don't choose to be with my wife because I want her or cherish her. At least in the last 5 years she's been more like a pet project of mine that *I'll* feel better if I fix her. How condescending and insensitive of me. I feel very ashamed of my behavior. I had myself convinced I was being sacrificing and being the martyr for so long. Instead, I'm sure that I only caused more confusion and distraction from her real journey. Its her journey to pick and choose, she deserves at least the chance to go through it with someone who sees her as she is and accepts her where she is in that journey and wants to go through life with her.
I think I told myself that when she's a good person, when I fixed her, then I'll be able to love her. I put the onus on her for my lack of love. If I don't love her now, I probably won't love her later either.
I don't feel that I'm done with this, but I'm exhausted and am going to get some sleep. Goodnight.
-
longtire
My feeling is, the ones you really want to rescue are your childhood parents and your childhood self. Your wife is only the stand-in. From your description of her, she is going to need years of intensive help. And even then it will only help things a little bit.
She cannot follow through on the stuff she told you about. That was a desperate attempt on her part to prevent abandonment. One therapy session cannot possibly sustain a major change.
Don't 'come clean' with her unless you want her to unravel completely. I would not discuss loaded topics unless a counselor is present or unless you have some plan to help you afterward. She's still 8 years old.
bunny
-
Lontire: I also have a hard time being "dishonest", and it's been my downfall many times. I say too much, I share too much, I give the person a knife, basically and tell them where to stab me.....all because I think that's MY truth, so it should be theirs as well.
The people in my life who are healthy, love me for my honesty, but keep concern for me because I tend to trust too much, and I have learned, this makes me a huge target for unhealthy people.
In my divorce, I wanted sooo much to be very honest with my ex and share "everything" I was feeling. Except when he was about to twist something to his advantage, he REALLY DIDN'T CARE, or really COULDN'T care.
I think bunny is correct....and this is what my therapist told me, too: Don't tell your thought process, don't give a head's up........he will twist
it (and you) all about and though you think you are doing the "right" thing, it won't matter to him.
Take care of yourself. It's pretty clear you are on your own.
-
Hi Longtire:
...I have shed the anger and rage and come to love her in a moral sense.
By this, do you mean, a sort of brotherly love? Do you love her because it's the right thing to do?
...then I'll be able to love her. I put the onus on her for my lack of love. If I don't love her now, I probably won't love her later either.
By this...do you mean...romantic love?
I understand your confusion, Longtire. But love is a choice...isn't it?
I mean....we decide to love or not to love.....it isn't some magic thingy, is it?
You have a right to choose not to love your wife romantically, or to do so in a brotherly way, for whatever your reasons, which are indeed valid.
That is your right as a human being...to choose who and how to love, as you see fit.
After so many years, you are used to being with her. Even if things were never lovey-dovey, there are a lot of memories. People who are with each other for long periods of time become sort of attached, habitualized to eachother, even if it is all a rather negative experience or just so-so.
It's not easy to quit that. Especially, in your case, where you feel like...no matter what the reason....you want to help, save, protect, fix whatnot.
I hear the turmoil in your post, Longtire. (((((Longtire))))).
It seems to me, that because you are trying to choose to break the long standing habit of trying to help, save, protect, fix etc...., and even if you want to do that but realize it is useless to keep trying because it hasn't worked so far.....and even if you have done it because of your childhood need to have that......you are beating yourself up about it. But you have a right to make that choice, Longtire. You are not obligated to try any harder or any longer to help, save, protect, fix, ... your wife or to love her better. You've done your best.
I put the onus on her for my lack of love.
There is no blame on her or you. She has problems. You have problems. We all have problems. So what? The real blame falls on those who harmed us to begin with, doesn't it? The real onus is on your parents for not giving you what you needed, not on you for trying to give it to someone else.
In marriage......the essentials for me are:
Honouring eachother
Communication
Intimacy
Sharing
Trust
etc.
These do not sound like they are too far off your essentials either???
Ok....so if these are missing, and you believe this is what you both deserve, what you both contracted with eachother, what you both would benefit from.....is there some crime that you are soley responsible for that created that absence?
Doesn't it take two to tango?
You have a right to end the dance, Longtire, if you so choose.
And.......there is nothing to be ashamed of or feel guilty for, in asking for that dance, in trying to keep step, and in finding that it just isn't the right dance partner, and in moving on after giving it a good go.
GFN
-
If I get too close, she says and does hateful things to get me to back off. When I pull back to far and talk about leaving, she gets nice again for a while to pull me back in.
Doesn't do intimacy but likes to see you squirming and trying to achieve it.
And the therapy session that, as bunny said, can't bring sustainable change?
Another ....pull you back in.....reel you in......ploy??
Projecting her fear of abandonment on you, I agree.
Close down the screen. Turn on the lights. Refuse to let the show go on!!
You deserve much better.
-
Dawing, bunny, mum, and GFN. I see and agree with everything you said. Thanks so much for being there and continuing to talk with me through what must look like being dead stuck on my part. Believe it or not, I have gone from 1 step forward-2 steps back which had me stuck for years and years to 2 steps forward-1step back. Now when I bounce, I come back down on the side of leaving each time.
One difficulty of my INTJ personality is that I feel driven to understand the situation so I believe that I won't have to go through it again next time. So, it takes me longer to learn than most other people. The good side to that is that I really and deeply work through things and come out the other side far better off than most people. It is a difficult, painful, ultimately free and rewarding way to be. I feel that I am just now reaping those benefits and coming into my real life.
My feeling is, the ones you really want to rescue are your childhood parents and your childhood self. Your wife is only the stand-in. From your description of her, she is going to need years of intensive help. And even then it will only help things a little bit.
Yes, this is exactly what I've been doing. It helps that I HAVE rescued my inner child, thought not the real child of the past, from this! I needed this step to be healthy and secure going forward. Continuing to try to "fix" a different situation today as a way to try to fix a situation in the past is unrealistic, futile, frustrating and exhausting.
The issues I am working on now are related to that "putting myself away for safekeeping" I did as a child. This issue has been then primary driver and defining characteristic of my life until this point. It has driven just about everything else I have thought and done. I believe that we never run out of growth opportunities in our life, but I'm hoping and praying that working through this deep core issue will free me up to choose, rather than feeling dominated by it.
Take care of yourself. It's pretty clear you are on your own.
No, I'm not, thank God! I've found a place where I am cared for even when I'm in distress and can't give back at that moment. The support and caring I've been given here has demonstrated to me what "interdependence" is, since I daven't seen that elsewhere in my life. No one does the work for me, but no one leaves when I am needing more than I am able to give. Trusting in that base I have been able to take steps and be more than I ever thought possible for myself. I believe that God has a huge hand in this as well. But, I believe that God speaks to us through others when we aren't able to hear him directly. I don't feel that words can express the gratitude I feel to have you in my life and trust that you already know this feeling yourselves. God bless.
-
Hi Longtire:
...must look like being dead stuck on my part.
It doesn't look like that to me at all. To me, it looks like you are reaching out for help, like you are in a confusing, scarey, painful position, like you are trying to sort out your thinking and your feelings, like you are trying to be reasonable and fair, like you are working on making a sound decision......
To me it looks like you are doing a very good job of searching for the right answers to get to the bottom of a tough question......
To leave, or not to leave?? That is the question (and I'm no Shakespear!! :D ).
It's not easy to decide. Our head tells us one thing and our heart might say something else.
The smart thing to do is listen to our heads.
The Christian thing to do is to listen to our hearts.
The reasonable thing to do, imo, is to listen to both, and take whatever steps necessary to do what seems reasonable and fair.
That's what you're doing, Longtire. And you're doing a good job so far!!
....I have been able to take steps and be more than I ever thought possible for myself.
You sure have, Longtire, and I can see you growing stronger and stepping forward, more and more, too. Good for you!!
God speaks to us through others when we aren't able to hear him directly.
I believe this too and I thank you sincerely for reminding me.
GFN
-
Hey, Longtire: I know you were quoting me to make a really nice point..and I get it...just know that the "it's clear you're alone now" comment was really meaning: "you're moving on" and possibly away from her.
I agree about the help here....surprising for me, really. I too, have those stuck times (now being one of them) but also feel I'm there for not as long....and I don't step back so far anymore.
-
Longtire,
Thank you for not chucking an internet tire iron my way because of my post on Friday. After I posted it I thought it was kind of impatient, as though I had a right to be frustrated with your situation! I thought sure I was going to catch a flame thrower from some direction.
It is very common for people to have overlapping characteristics of these disorders. More common than not. It just so happens my N is a case study in NPD. Most aren't.
But your wife sure has got a mess o' problems. And they all seem to stem from some type of personality disorder. My understanding is all P.D.s are exceedingly difficult to change.
Back to my frustration with you. You know why I'm frustrated with you? Because you are me! When I hear the way you are being whipsawed and dancing on the end of your wife's string I see what I did for years. I didn't need someone to give me a shoulder to cry on. I needed a big cold flounder slapped right across my earhole. And I mean a 400 pound Alaskan halibut. I needed someone to shake me and say "What are you doing? He's playing you like bass fiddle and you don't even know it! Wake up, get a grip and stop avoiding what you know inside you have to do!" What I would not give now for somebody to have cared enough then to knock me off of my stool of complacency and wishful thinking.
Regarding you avoidant tendencies. Ditto for me. They are a self fulfilling prophecy. They paralyze us, then bad things happen because we didn't do what we should have and that paralyzes us more. Taking some action, any action, for me is the antidote. Because that slaps me out of that thinking and brings about the desire for more action.
Don't worry about the length of that post. Long posts are the only way to transmit enough info for others to understand your situation. I learned more about your wife from that systematic description than any other post.
Anyway God bless and congratulations on two steps forward and one step back. It sure beats the opposite, huh?
mudpuppy
-
Mudpuppy, within your first couple of posts, I knew that we must be similar in some way. You kept saying what I was trying to work to, just in a lot fewer words than I would have used. :D
I've prayed for guidance and heard God say to me "Move on" 3 times now. So then I prayed for understanding to make sure I understand that really means move on from this "marriage." Tonight, I did more reading in the bible and also some searches on the internet. I feel that I've gently moved into the knowledge that what I've had with the person I thought was my "wife" was never a covenant marriage. No trumpets, no big changes in me this time, just a quiet acceptance tonight. I'm hoping that means I'm finally ready to move on and no more bouncing back and forth! I think that I simply had to try everything else from counseling to understanding her childhood to following God blindly (rather than by revealed knowledge) to satisfy my own conscience.
I've asked God to correct me if I am moving in the wrong direction. I've asked him to excuse me from this "marriage" and my part of the covenant, because to me it IS a true committment on my part. Right now, I feel a peace and restfulness that I haven't felt before in this process. I'm curious to see how I feel over the next several days. I have therapy tomorrow and will talk with my pastor on the phone Tuesday.
Thank you all for being here for me when I needed help the most.
Good Night and God Bless
-
Longtire,
Ditto on the similarity thing.
I know there are different interpretations within the church of what constitutes grounds for divorce.
To me, in your case that has become almost irrelevant. You are in danger of losing your marbles with this woman. Even if it is wrong to divorce her, you will be forgiven for struggling to maintain your sanity. If it isn't wrong in God's eyes so much the better.
I'm not presuming to tell you what to do, just that you seem to over analyze like me, in lieu of actually doing something.
I do know some women who have left their husbands over intolerable behavior. They have not sought a divorce, they have simply chosen to remain seperated but married. Invariably their husbands seek a divorce when they figure out they're not coming back. I'm not saying your wife would do the same, probably not, but that is how they have dealt with the issue of divorce.
Anyway if God is telling you to move on, then you shouldn't listen to anyone else. Oswald Chambers had a great line. I'm doing this off the top of my head, "Never seek advice for something the Lord would have you decide before Him." If you know what he has told you, you have no need of my or anyone else's advice. Whenever I have done the opposite I have screwed it up.
God bless.
mudpup
-
Ugh. I had therapy earlier. Now I feel a feeling inside my chest at the back, behind my lungs. It feels like dread to me. Like a terrible fear of being found out somehow. Let me tell you what I worked on today.
My therapist started by telling me anyone would be ambivalent in this situation about ending a marriage. OK. We talked about how what I've been going through seems more intense than that.
He asked me if I can explain why I want to leave this realtionship to a 6 year old in 25 words or less. In other words, am *I* CLEAR on why I want to leave. I tried several times, and he pointed out that I each time would have lost the 6 year old within the first couple of words. His point is that being able to describe the concrete, observable aspects is important for being secure about my decision. My feelings, interpretation and reactions to those observable sensations come after that. I have a strong intuitive "feel" for the patterns, but that is not grounded in the facts right now. He told me that having that grounding will help keep the ambivalence and the back and forth from being so extreme.
Well, I struggled on some more, but didn't feel like I was doing very good at it. It doesn't sound that hard, but I really had problems keeping what I was saying only in the observable range. My therapist asked some questions about waht I was saying to help me get a better idea. This is not something I'm used to doing, and I believe I will need quite a bit of practice to get good at it.
My therapist told me that I was already making progress and was moving into the "front room" where all the observable stuff is. That's opposed to the "back room" where all the processing is going on. He really was supportive through all this. I told him that I felt like I needed a lot more practice at it. He suggested writing it down as a good way to document and organize the concrete observables. Well, I felt and feel bad about not being able to do this very well. I'm questioning whether there is anything concrete there to justify my feelings or whether its all in my head.
One of the "things" I brought up was telling my wife I wanted to talk about sex (or lack thereof) and to understand her limits with it. I heard her tell me that she "is completely open to discussing sex anytime," and then saying "I'm not ready tonight." I asked her when would be a good time to do that and she told me that "I'm not sure, I'll let you know." I brought up this exchange in the next joint counseling and said that I "don't understand whether S is willing to talk about sex or not. She says she is, but then she said she wasn't willing at that time." I heard S interrupt and say "That didn't happen!" while I was talking. I reacted and got upset and the session basically went nowhere from there. I was very upset and called the counselor back later to discuss this. The counselor said she did not hear S say "That didn't happen." She said that she had been listening for it since I discussed it with her previously as being a major hot button for me. I asked if we could tape record the sessions from now on, so that the next time I thought I heard S say this, we could check the tape and answer the question once and for all. (If I'm crazy of hallucinating, I'd like to know!) The counselor said she thought that was a great idea (as did my therapist) and she would have the equipment ready for the next joint session. My wife had an individual session with the counselor between our joint sessions. The day before the next joint session, I found a letter from my wife in the morning saying she was leaving joint therapy but wanted to continue individual therapy on her own. She has not discussed this with me other than checking to see if I read the letter. BTW, my therapist is in the same office suite as the counselor. I signed the paper giving them permission to talk and compare notes.
My therapist asked how I feel about the counselor NOT hearing what I heard. I told him it bothers me. I told him that I'm open to discussing whether I am hearing things, but neither he nor the counselor have diagnosed me with hallucination. We both agreed that this ONLY seems to come out with S, nowhere else in my life. I told him that S's negative behavior mainly comes out with me, so I understand that doesn't preclude me from hallucinating only in a more "intimate" relationship. I pointed out that my wife left joint counseling the day before the first session with the tape recorder which seems telling to me, and admitted that it still didn't mean that I wasn't hallucinating also.
If I'm hallucinating, how would I know? I guess only if someone I trusted shared their experience of the incident to compare against. I don't trust S, she very rarely shares her experiences, she just denies mine. I'm not sure what the deal is with the counselor. I was already unhappy with her before that and felt that she was buying S's story without keeping an open and impartial mind. I've read about therapy abuse, but could S really confuse the counselor, or am I missing something that they see? I know how much S confuses me, but I would expect the counselor to be more aware and impartial. At one point, S told me that the counselor had told her that she hadn't done anything wrong. I know, that's hearsay, but still....
All this questioning whether I am hearing things, coupled with the difficulty I had trying to ground things by putting my experience in terms of the concrete "video camera" observations have lead me to completely question myself. Have I imagined everything? Is S fine and I've created all these problems where none existed? Why would I do that? Am I to blame for the failure of our marriage? Am I insane, at least around S? Confused around her, certainly! Is it really my confusion or hers? Do I hear her say things that she did not say? How would I know? It seems like audio or video tape is the only way, but we aren't really speaking anymore, so now what? Do I have this problem elsewhere in my life and I just don't know it? Am I insane in general? Is this why I have always had such problems relating to other people?
I feel like my entire existence is in question. How can I make a decision if I don't know whether I'm crazy or not? Do I have the right to expect decent treatment from S if I've caused all these problems where none existed? Should I be working to make amends to her if this is the case? I believe a lot of this questioning myself is coming out of that Avoidant place, but this is worse than I ever remember. Can I ever "know" anything again, or do I just "feel" and "believe" things. Do I have to remember every word, gesture and facial expression of everyone I talk to so that I can be sure I'm not imagining things and have a real basis for my interpretations and beliefs?
I know I'm over reacting. I hate all this self doubt. No one else put this in me. I know that it is mine, so *I* have to deal with it. But, *I* feel soooo ungrounded right now. All that stuff I thought I had figured out is out the window again. This reminds me of how I felt as a kid trying to make sense of my emotionally void home. I'm just trying to hang on right now. Sorry for the emotional spew. I feel a little better now.
-
Hi Longtire:
I know I'm over reacting.
Any person who suddenly starts to think they might be hallucinating would be as upset as you are.
Consider this:
!. The counsellor may not have heard your wife say "that didn't happen".
The counsellor may have missed it and therefore does not believe it was said. The counsellor may not be the very best alive and may very well be taking sides. I would not be shocked to learn this. Don't panic.
2. When was the last time you had sex? Are you hallucinating that too?
Longtire, dealing with people who act like N's is confusing and makes us feel crazy. It's hard to put a label on exactly what it is they do that drives us wacky and causes us to want to get away from them. They are experts at convincing others of their "sanity" and our "craziness".
It is quite possible that this is what is happening in your case. Your wife may be more believable than you are sounding (more expert at acting?? Convincing?? Used to fooling people??). You're not out to convince anyone of anything but rather...to try to figger it all out for yourself. That can look a bit unclear because we do indeed feel unclear because what Nish people do is distort so much that it's hard to tell what's clear!
You're ok, Longtire. You are not creating all of this. Re-read your post in which you listed all the similarities of the different N/borderline diagnosis criteria and applied it all to your wife. You gave examples there.
Why you want to leave this relationship? Maybe it can't be explained right now in 25 words or less. That doesn't change what you want or why you want it. You are entitled to be tongue tied because your emotions are all a whirl. It hurts to end a marriage. :(
GFN
-
longtire,
You're not crazy, you're not hallucinating. That broad (excuse me ladies) is in your head with an egg beater and she's making an omelet.
What your wife said is standard operating procedure for Ns. And in my experience it is common for third parties to miss the little comments Ns make.
So please trust your instincts. God put them there for a reason.
mudpup
-
longtire.
Take a deep breath....calm down....it's going to be okay.
First, you don't have to make a decision on your marriage right this minute. You can simply feel confused about it. Only caveat: don't talk about the confused feelings with your wife. Call your therapist.
Second, how did you get the idea that you may be hallucinating? There is a large middle ground between florid psychosis and definitely hearing something. It's called, "I'm pretty sure that's what I heard, no matter what anyone else says." Memory is tricky. No one has a perfect memory, not even your (former) couples counselor. I'm sure under cross-examination with a good defense attorney, she might hesitate as to what she heard.
Third, the couples counselor was in over her head because she couldn't keep the session safe, and argued with you about what was heard. You would need a better one, if you ever returned to couples therapy (IMO).
Fourth, divorce is not something people have to justify to God, nor through a lengthy, tortuous justification to themselves, nor through a therapist urging them to cough up reasons. If you were ready to divorce your wife, you would know that there was no other option. You'd know that you couldn't keep living this way. You would be so utterly miserable that you would simply not be able to stay there. Right now you are still able to remain married, so you haven't reached the point of decision. You're in contemplation now.
Take what you need and leave the rest,
bunny
-
Looking back a little in this thread, you wrote:
...In other words, I could sit around and think about it all day long, but didn't really know how to put it into practice. ....
Basically, what I'm saying is that I don't think this pace or level of change is common or to be expected. It certainly is often painful, exhausting and uncomfortable for me.
Longtire, the decision is painful, exhausting and uncomfortable. It's a high level of change. You have been thinking about it and discussing it and analyzing it and making sure it's ok and thinking about it and examining so much and thinking about it and considering it and remembering and thinking about it and ......
....it's still hard to put it into practice.
Ending a marriage hurts. :(
I was at a pool party once and a little fella slipped and fell down and scraped his elbow....He looked up at his dad, who immediately hollered:
"Take the pain, Son. Take the pain!!!"
All the adults laughed like a bunch of idiots except me. Maybe I'm the idiot but I felt really sorry for that little guy and his hurt elbow.
But.....he kind of scrunched up his little face, slapped his hand over his elbow, got up, and took off running around. Soon, the hand came off the elbow, a smile was on his face and he didn't really seem worse for wear.
I feel sad for your pain, Longtire, but maybe that dad was right. Slap your hand over the scrape you got today and keep going! Soon you'll have a smile on your face, thinking of Mudpuppy's description of your omlette (you're something else Mudpuppy-heehee).
GFN
-
Longtire, you're not nuts. GFN's story about the kid and the elbow made me think of pulling a bandaid off....little by little, or all at once? There is no right way. You're doing the little by little because you are a nice guy with feelings for others. Give yourself a break. Sit with it. Give yourself a night off.
Something that helped me, when I was trying to muster up the courage to tell my second husband I wanted that divorce we'd been discussing and I felt really bad about it (turns out he didn't, imagine that):
My sister asked me:
"how would you feel if it were over...you told him..." I said , ok, kinda sad, but relieved"
then she asked: "and how will you feel if you don't do it?" and my feeling in my gut was my answer.........awful, just awful, like I wanted to scream my way out of this dismal marriage and life with him...
After a break, maybe those questions will help you.
Both of my ex's (N's..........slow learner) would twist up what I said and then tell them it was me, hearing things, losing my mind, being a mess.
Since it pretty much only happened with them (and a few Nish siblings) I decided to listen to MYSELF for a change, and trust myself. Turned out to be a great idea.
Hang in there. You don't have to justify one damn thing. Who is this judgemental diety anyway? Not one I know.
-
Longtire,
Maybe this wll give you some perspective on your "insanity."
This happened to me about 15 years ago. After being in business for a few years with my anti-Wally Cleaver of a brother, I met my future wife. This coincided with bro taking a year off from work to traipse around the world while I was working like a beaver. :roll: Sorry. Anyway, with my coming husbandly responsibilities and spending a year away from Svengali it dawned on me that I was getting the decidedly short end of the stick. So when he got back I told him I was going to buy him out of the business. Being young and foolish, I didn't line my ducks in a row, and largely just to get away from him, the Readers Digest version is, he created a huge crisis and ended up with part of my share of the company and isolated me (somewhat) from the family.
This is where it gets sick. He eventually had me convinced that I had gone bonkers and behaved irrationally, maybe even had a nervous breakdown. That I was the cause of the business breaking up, not him!
When I look back it is almost impossible to believe I could have been that colossaly blockheaded. It seems impossible now, but then I was convinced that I had behaved at least somewhat bizarrely.
I now see that the only time I have behaved rationally has been when I have told him to go take a walk until his hat floats. But at the time my brain was a cheese omelette, just like yours is now. That is what they do for a living, if you can call it living. They make omelettes and we're the eggs. You know what you have to do if you want to make an omelette, right?
Would it make sense to move out for a period of time and put off any decision about divorce until your head clears? In your case it seems you will have a hard time clearing your mind as long as she is constantly there to control it. I could not get my mind free until I got away from him. Thank God my wife finally forced me to just cut off contact.
Incidentally if I had any doubts about your wife being an N, your last post cured me of that. That is classic N. Vintage stuff.
God bless.
mudpuppy
-
Thanks for replying all of you. I started to feel better after a while. I choose to believe it was the positive thoughts from you here. :) I stayed busy getting things done around the house and refused to dwell on it, since I know that would have only made me feel worse. At least this way my todo list is shorter.
I'm convinced my wife is an N w/ some BPD tendencies. I'm convinced that she's way better at getting people on her side than I am. Her: Extroverted manipulator. Me: Introverted Avoidant (not so much anymore). I'll NEVER win that battle so I have to find another way. On some level, I'm just not convinced that I'm OK. I hear all of the wonderful support and comments from you and believe me, it helps a lot! At the end of the day, though, I know *I* need to be OK with myself or I will have to depend on others for it and be at their mercy. I believe that's what landed me in this relationship in the first place. This brings up some awful, scary feelings. I've just tried to make room for them today and not solve anything right now.
!. The counsellor may not have heard your wife say "that didn't happen".
The counsellor may have missed it and therefore does not believe it was said. The counsellor may not be the very best alive and may very well be taking sides. I would not be shocked to learn this. Don't panic.
I've had a feeling for some time that this counselor feels sorry for my wife and has at least shifted in her favor, if not taken sides. No proof, just a feeling. Since they talk, I am afraid that this might turn my longtime therapist against me, and I really need his help.
2. When was the last time you had sex? Are you hallucinating that too?
I had to laugh at this one! :D Still, in a court of law, it was me who said no more "sex" until we can talk some things out and develop some intimacy. Besides, I'd much rather make love than have sex any day!
Third, the couples counselor was in over her head because she couldn't keep the session safe, and argued with you about what was heard. You would need a better one, if you ever returned to couples therapy (IMO).
This was the case right from the start. Neither my wife nor I felt safe in there. In hindsight, I believe that the counselor should have seen that we were not a loving couple who just needed to learn a few techniques to improve communication. Trying to do Imago in a grossly dysfunctional relationship is ridiculous. It just created situations for both of us to feel even more used, hurt and frustrated.
Hang in there. You don't have to justify one damn thing. Who is this judgemental diety anyway? Not one I know.
No, I think the judgement is mostly coming from me on this right now. I hope to get a chance to talk to my pastor about this tomorrow. I've got my fingers crossed that he will be supportive when I explain the situation. I believe that I've got my answer from God already and it is "Move on."
Would it make sense to move out for a period of time and put off any decision about divorce until your head clears? In your case it seems you will have a hard time clearing your mind as long as she is constantly there to control it. I could not get my mind free until I got away from him. Thank God my wife finally forced me to just cut off contact.
Honestly, I think my wife would enjoy it if I moved out and she got to keep living off my money. I just realized that's why I feel against a separation. I agree that it is harder to get my mind clear in this environment. Here's something else, if I have to leave to get my mind clear, that's a clear sign that I need to just leave period. In any case, I need to work to get my mind clear, I just don't see a case for half measures. Darn that judgemental intJ again!
Incidentally if I had any doubts about your wife being an N, your last post cured me of that. That is classic N. Vintage stuff.
I understand about being careful with diagnosing others or yourself. But I've lived with this person for 17 years and known her for over 2 decades. For at least a decade, I was codependent and "fixing" this person was the focus of my life. Sometimes you have put down the DSM and admit the obvious!
-
Longtire--
I am so sorry about your painful situation.
In case you are gathering perspectives, I have a few comments that you can take or leave--
1. You felt really hurt that the counselor said she didn't hear what your wife said because you aren't feeling heard in general. I agree with Bunny that this counselor is not super-sharp to have made such a comment under the circumstances. Just a big blunder on her part, not your fault.
2. You are having a bazillion feelings and feel the need to put them into action. But maybe just watch the feelings, sit with them, see what they are, don't worry about action right now. I know this is tough, maybe especially for male people ? :) Sometimes action feels more comfortable.
3. I don't think your therapist was wise to push you for simple solutions and answers a 6 year old would understand. I think this for two reasons-- you aren't feeling heard as it is, so why force you to explain as if you are on trial?, and the divorce or no divorce decision isn't the important thing right now. Making the decision won't stop the swirling feelings.
I think you need love right now. Warmth, hugs, feelings of comfort. If I could send those to you right this minute, I would! Just a feeling of safety and acceptance.
Just let yourself feel what you feel. None of it is wrong. I feel as if the people in your life are all pushing you, not trusting you, not allowing yourself to trust yourself. Please do trust yourself.
Can you get away for a bit, just with yourself?
Hang in there, keep posting--
Vunil
-
Longtire, I'm glad to hear you sound more like you.
Glad you laughed! :lol: I heard tonight on the news that laughing is very, very good for our hearts (physically). Opens blood vessels and thus...lowers blood pressure....relaxes many muscles....etc. Good stuff for those under stress. They are recomending 10 to 15 min per day of laughing!!! They even have laughing groups (where people join up....go to meetings......stand around laughing and laughing their heads off at .......nothing. Looks ridiculous :shock: and funn! 8) ).
...it was me who said no more "sex" until we can talk some things out and develop some intimacy. Besides, I'd much rather make love than have sex any day!
I knew that. :roll: I read it in this thread. My point exactly. You weren't hallucinating when you made that decision....were you? You weren't crazy then.....right? You knew there was a problem and how long has it been? :shock: (never mind....too much information). It isn't fixed yet, right?
No worries. Just go with your gut. Besides.....you're teaching us how to do the two-forward-one-back step. It's so much better than some of the line dances some of us are mastering! (I should only speak for myself....I'm an expert at going backwards actually!!). But I expect MORE from you!! After all......you have the longest first post on record and thattttt is a very big accomplishment!!
Sweet dreams, Longtire.
GFN
-
longtire,
It is totally possible that the counselor did not hear your wife say that never happened. Now get this, now we are discussing whether your wife said that something never happened EVER HAPPENED. It's craziness. This is classic. This is typical denial of reality. I know when something happened and so do you.
I can totally relate to going over and over stuff in your head (I'm INTJ also, I found that out over 20 years ago when I was 22). It takes me a long time to make a decision, but once it's made it's really made. I'm very uncomfortable in the phase before the decision is made, I realize that and I allow myself to be uncomfortable. I don't want to be second guessing myself after the fact so I let myself second guess myself before the decision all I have to. Eventually you will come to a decision.
Another thing that has always helped me, when dealing with the feeling of being "used", is to recognize how much I grew in the situation. I realized that I had gained, I came to know myself better, what a wonderful gift.
LM
-
Hi again Longtire
On some level, I'm just not convinced that I'm OK. I hear all of the wonderful support and comments from you and believe me, it helps a lot! At the end of the day, though, I know *I* need to be OK with myself or I will have to depend on others for it and be at their mercy. I believe that's what landed me in this relationship in the first place. This brings up some awful, scary feelings. I've just tried to make room for them today and not solve anything right now.
Do you want to talk about this some more?
I'm not convinced at all that I'm okay. I see life as a battle that makes me tired. It's such an effort!
Depending on others 'to be okay' and being "at their mercy"? Some people are honestly giving and loving and kind. You wouldn't be at their mercy. It wouldn't be part of the equation. Did you catch yourself saying that?
Scary feelings. Best to get them out in the open where they may not be so scary?
-
Longtire,
I totally understand the scary part. All of this is scary. I would definitely be where you are if it weren't for the fact that my H wouldn't let me. He refused to discuss leaving or not leaving--he just left and checked out of our lives for 4 weeks before there was any communication. I can now be grateful for the fact that our marriage is ending, but at the time it was devastating and it put me into a state of shock.
In the last 2 years I have lost my step-grandmother (who I was close to), my son left for college, my husband left, I sold my dream home and moved, and in January, my mother died. Someone who does stress management training told me I have gone through most of the major stress producers in a very short amount of time.
I guess my point would be that change is scary, but necessary to reaching a point of health and happiness. Pulling the plug on a long-term relationship, no matter how bad it is, is not easy to do (unless you have another relationship to run to--but we know that is not a healthy decision).
All of my 1 step forward, 2 steps back has had to be with myself. But it gets better. I agree with GFN that there is alot of that line dancing too, but its all part of the growth process. I don't really think that you can work through this while in a living situation with your wife. You may need to be in a "sterile" environment where you only have yourself to talk to.
You are not nuts, insane or any other crazy term. You're a man who wants a relationship with a woman that is a two-way street. These N's only go one-way and its definitely not towards their partner. When we take our vows before God, it is with the understanding that both parties actually believe and are committed to what is being said. Think about what a marriage should be and look at what yours is. They are not compatible. Love making should be there with both parties engaged. Communication should be there with both parties engaged. Intimacy should be there with both parties engaged. Etc, etc.
My heart breaks for you as I know so intimately how you feel with this struggle. You're in my prayers.
Brigid
-
Dear Longtire, hang in there! Making you believe that you are crazy is what they do. My xN would always tell me that I was imagining things, that it was all in my head, that I was crazy etc. (funny how everything I imagined was related to him beimg hurtful to me :wink: ). However, when I had a complete breakdown (gee, I wonder why?), he actually confessedto doing all those things! Sick! Anyway, do what you need to do to keep your sanity, if you feel the need then by all means go out and buy a small taperecorder that you can kepp on you at all times (who knows when she will start speeking to you, or should I say at you, again). You can even get a voice-activated one, so you wont have to switch tapes all the time :P . Just a suggestion, but do whatever it takes to stay sane, I know how difficult it can be, and objective, tangible proof can help.
-
I'm convinced my wife is an N w/ some BPD tendencies. I'm convinced that she's way better at getting people on her side than I am. Her: Extroverted manipulator. Me: Introverted Avoidant (not so much anymore). I'll NEVER win that battle so I have to find another way.
If you're talking about therapists, any couples therapist who shows a preference for either partner needs to be dumped. No therapy can happen in that situation.
On some level, I'm just not convinced that I'm OK.
You only have to be good enough. Can you manage that?
Since they talk, I am afraid that this might turn my longtime therapist against me, and I really need his help.
YOUR THERAPIST CANNOT TAKE SIDES WITH ANOTHER THERAPIST AGAINST YOU. THAT IS MASSIVELY UNETHICAL. When therapists talk to each other, it is not to gossip or speculate about the patient(s). It is for very sparse info sharing. And whenever I've given permission for my doctors, therapists, etc., to talk to each other, they didn't do it. I asked because I started fearing they had. (And I don't think they lied to me.) Please tell your therapist your concerns about his taking sides here! Please!!
This was the case right from the start. Neither my wife nor I felt safe in there. In hindsight, I believe that the counselor should have seen that we were not a loving couple who just needed to learn a few techniques to improve communication. Trying to do Imago in a grossly dysfunctional relationship is ridiculous. It just created situations for both of us to feel even more used, hurt and frustrated.
I'm very sorry you wasted your time/money with this incompetent person.
A couples therapist needs to be super-good. Better than an individual therapist. They have to understand object relations and intersubjectivity theories. And not understand it superficially. They have to really know it. This is crucial IMO. Otherwise they just cause more damage by not understanding the situation.
I personally am not invested in whether or not you leave the marriage. My question is more about how you can not go crazy with the non-permission to have convictions, or even opinions, and act on them. That, to me, is the real issue. Not your marriage. Take what you need and leave the rest.
{{{ longtire }}}
bunny
-
BTW I trashed one therapist [who I met once, for couples counseling, and dumped immediately] to my individual therapist. He had referred us to this guy and they know each other. I don't care! Confidentiality is a very big deal in therapy. My therapist cannot tell this other therapist what I said. And he has to empathically hear anything I say even if I'm talking about his friend or colleague. That's what he gets paid for!
bunny
-
vunil wrote,
But maybe just watch the feelings, sit with them, see what they are, don't worry about action right now. I know this is tough, maybe especially for male people ? Sometimes action feels more comfortable.
Good point, vunil, you may be right. I know I brood over things the way longtire does, which paralyzes me, like he is. However, I also know that on occasion, to break out of the brooding, I have acted prematurely. Its very tough to know when to brood some more or just stand up and do something. Definitely primarily a male thing, I think.
Imagine how boring life would be if we knew the right thing to do and when to do it all the time. And imagine how boring it would be if we couldn't go around telling everyone else what they should do and when to do it, despite our ineptitude in our own lives. I'm only speaking for myself of course. :)
bunny wrote,
I personally am not invested in whether or not you leave the marriage. My question is more about how you can not go crazy with the non-permission to have convictions, or even opinions, and act on them. That, to me, is the real issue. Not your marriage. Take what you need and leave the rest.
I don't think anyone here is 'invested' in him leaving his marriage. I just don't see how he can stay sane in it? It seems like that is what is driving him bonkers. I know for me personally, with a similar personality to longtire's, as long as I was in my brother's orbit I was not in control of my life. It was only the severing of our relationship which lifted the fog I had been living in. To be perfectly frank I think men are more easily dooped than women, its just that more Ns are men so there are more women victims. We of the hairy side of the species are just not that sharp, regardless of our intelligence. At least that's my experience.
Of course if we're not that sharp I guess nobody should listen to us anyway. I'm beginning to ramble, so I'll guess I'll sign off.
This is the point in a conversation where I realize everybody else knows more than me so I shut up and try to learn something.
mudpuppy
-
Its very tough to know when to brood some more or just stand up and do something. Definitely primarily a male thing, I think.
MudPuppy no! Female brooder here, don't know when it's best to act and usually do it at the 'wrong' time when I do. Or do the wrong thing. At the right time. Anyway, aren't the hairy ones the ones who are the decisive captains of industry? The Senators and Murdochs of this world? The male / female differences are more about brain approaches to problem-solving and perspectives (e.g. map-reading vs. asking for directions....) :wink:
Are you an INTJ personality too then? This board must be a collection zone for us!
-
Hi Guest,
Anyway, aren't the hairy ones the ones who are the decisive captains of industry? The Senators and Murdochs of this world?
I said the hairy ones aren't that sharp, and you said aren't they the ones running the world, to which I say "would you like to take credit for the state of the world?" I didn't think so.
Capitalism is a wonderful thing. Capitalists are pigs.
Political freedom is a wonderful thing. Politicians make lawyers look saintly, oh wait most politicians are lawyers. :x
God is the most wonderful thing, man's organized religions are not.
Let's face it, the world is a horrible place, and men run the world. Credit where credit is due as I said somewhere else.
Now, that said, I'm sure the world would be just as horrible if women ran it. Just in a different way. It would be a gentler, prettier, pastel hell.
Not too uplifting, but no use denying the way things are.
We can still see the wonders and beauty in the world, and still see a glimpse of God's love in the ones who love us, but its pretty hard to ignore what life is for most people.
Geez, I depressed myself.
mud
-
Are you an INTJ personality too then? This board must be a collection zone for us!
Oh yeah, I forgot. I think I was an INSJ, or an ISTJ or an AFL-CIO or an AARP. No, wait a minute, I'm pretty sure I wasn't that last one.
It started with an I and ended with a J. I think there was an S in there somewhere cause I'm such a caring Sensitive kinda guy. Maybe the other letter was an F, for Forgets what he is.
mud
-
A quick reply, more later. Thanks to everyone again for replies, goodwill and prayers. One of the reasons I appreciate your feeback (aside from being supportive and caring :) ) is that none of you are involved in my situation so you can give "outside" feedback. Hopefully, that means you can be more objective about things than I can when I'm right in the middle of it.
I am aware that most of this stuff coming up is mine. Expressing my experience to myself and others based on concrete, observable descriptions seems like a perfectly valid thing for me to be able to do. (Maybe I need to practice the technique starting with a more mundane subject?) My therapist was supportive and understanding in our session. Addressing things in the way we did brought up a lot of feelings and "stuff" for me.
I know this is my stuff, NOT something coming from my wife. (There is stuff coming from my wife of course, but this is my childhood wound, not her repeated digs at that wound.) This pre-dates my wife coming into my life. I grew up in a house where neither of my parents had ANY facility with their feelings. They did not discuss their feelings, problems, solutions, approaches, understandings, etc. EVER that I remember. Not only was none of this modeled for me, when I tried to express my feelings, my parents acted like they didn't know what I was talking about. I received NO, NONE, ZERO validation for my existence, feelings, worth, reasons for existing, etc.
For all my life, I haven't been able to figure out if I have any right to exist, feel the way I do, think the way I do, believe the way I do, or especially to act on these inner experiences. Its like there is point A, something happens, and point B, I feel/think/believe, but I don't know how to find point C, so I will do/say this. Its like a missing bridge. I believe :) this is why I accepted being with my wife in the first place. Of course, that experience then further confused my already confused view and I got stuck.
-
It would be a gentler, prettier, pastel hell.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I literally laughed out loud! However I'm a female and I dont like pastels, more bright colours... Do like pretty though, pretty is good, and sparkly, and fluffy and cute...Sound like hell for the haiaier ones yet?
-
Longtire: Glad you have a therapist that you get along with. Good luck! You say that it is your problems coming up, and that is true, your problems are what made you choose your wife in the first place. But that doesn't take away the fact that her treatment of you have made your problems worse. You had the wound, but having it constantly digged into by your wife will just infect it. All you can do is to aid the healing best you can and use plenty of disinfectant (this board, therapist, any supportive friends etc.). But I do believe that it is hard for the wound to heal while you have someone digging into it. I wish you could get away, but I also now how hard it is to get up and go. Whatever you do, take care of yourself.
-
I grew up in a house where neither of my parents had ANY facility with their feelings. They did not discuss their feelings, problems, solutions, approaches, understandings, etc. EVER that I remember. Not only was none of this modeled for me, when I tried to express my feelings, my parents acted like they didn't know what I was talking about. I received NO, NONE, ZERO validation for my existence, feelings, worth, reasons for existing, etc.
Yep. this is the main issue, imo. Your parents neglected you so terribly that you're confused when it comes to self-knowledge and self-agency. They didn't even mirror that you existed at all. This was tragic parenting. In fact I feel pretty pissed off toward them. But if you have a good enough therapist who can be a role model to you, and if you can internalize his modeling, things will change for you. Internalizing does take some time, it happens in small increments. So be patient and keep up the good work.
bunny
-
Mudpup,
Maybe the other letter was an F, for Forgets what he is.
Or maybe is stands for f_ _ _ _ed up! Just kidding. Its what an older sister can say to her wise guy younger brother. And you are part of that not-so-intelligent hairy gender.
I also needed to practice my new found quoting ability. Sorry for interjecting.
Brigid
-
Or maybe is stands for f_ _ _ _ed up!
Gee whiz, thanks sis! Glad you enjoy practicing on me. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Actually the same thing crossed my mind when I wrote the original post.
mud
-
Did anyone see the segment on the Today Show this morning where they were talking about toxic relationships. The first thing they discussed was Narcissism. Katie was interviewing a woman who is a psychologist and a man who is a psychologist and columnist on relationships. The first thing the man said when Katie mentioned this topic was "get out." She quickly dismissed him and said they did not want to promote the ending of marriages, but both of those people made it pretty clear that you were doomed if you were in this kind of relationship. They said the only hope there was would be for the N to recognize the deep wound inside themselves that caused this behavior to develop and get intense therapy to heal it. They also admitted that this rarely happens as N's do not feel they have a problem and it is everyone elses' fault.
I realize that I am saying things we all know, but it was the first time I've heard it discussed on television.
Brigid
-
I wanted to explain something I said confusingly earlier. I believe that I have to find my source of self-esteem and self-worth inside myself. It is great to have people like all of you here to help prop me up. The problem comes when I'm around someone like my wife instead of all of you. If I don't have a strong sense of myself that I carry around with myself, then I will fall victim again. I wasn't trying to say that all people are scary, but there are SOME people who are scary and I want to be able to survive contact with them.
Thats my goal. But I really do feel ungrounded and unanchored inside. I know what I see/hear/feel/smell/taste. I know what I feel (emotions). I know what I think. I know what I believe. I don't know if any of it is "right." I don't know if I am really connected or if these things are just a figment of my imagination. Who gets to determine right? HOW do you determine right? It seems like this sense is something you HAVE to get from other people. I imagine that usually, as a small child your parents or guardians tell you certain things are right and certian things are wrong. Lacking the ability to judge, most children accept these judgements as universal truths. When they grow up and become more aware they can then go back and challenge these beliefs as an independent adult. But still, they have the security (correct or not) of right and wrong to fall back on. Myabe (I hope) I'm missing something here, but its seems like this security comes about for most people by blindly accepting what their parents/authorities/society tells them. How do I acquire this for myself now as a thinking, judging, independent adult?
I can see how many people are damaged by picking up twisted judgements from their unhealthy parents. This is even a step deeper. Growing up I got the message that none of these internal things matter, that they are irrelevant. These internal things felt like they were *me* though, and I wasn't willing to give that up. I went into a shell to protect myself (the things inside). No wonder I believed I was an alien growing up. I was too aware of and too connected to my "stuff" to be able to give it up as my parents did. Probably because I already had to rely only on myself even before that age.
I'm not even sure what to call what I lack. Is it self-esteem? Is it self-worth? I love myself and believe that I am a caring, loving person with a lot to offer others. Neither one of those terms seems to really fit. Is it self-attachment? I'm not sure if there is such a word, but that feels closer to me. I can attach to other people, pets, places, things, art. Its me that feels like *I* am unattached to the world somehow. I float close by, but am not actually connected.
-
HOW do you determine right?
Longtire, this is one way, by testing yourself against things you might not agree with.
Like speaking up when someone makes a racist/sexist/cruel comment in your presence. By knowing what your own values and morals are and not being afraid to voice them. By testing yourself in those values in morals - do I really think that? Or have I changed my mind?
I think we're all constantly changing, almost different people from one 'time' to the next 'time'.
Can you list activities, ways of being, that you don't agree with? That you couldn't do or be? For me knowing what I'm not is a huge help.
-
Longtire,
I saw my therapist today and we talked about this whole issue of hanging onto a relationship even when you know it is not healthy. When I read your struggle I know I could have been you.
My T says that my reason for wanting to hang on was due to having had such a lousy childhood and never feeling that I was part of a family, loved or cared about. He is still amazed at how little grief I have demonstrated over my mother's death in early January. When I got married and had my children, I finally had the family I had longed for all my life. That desperation to have that intact family kept my blind, deaf and dumb to the quality of my relationship with my H. I allowed him to neglect me and treat me like a piece of the furniture because I did not want that family to come apart. It was far from perfect, but it was better than what I had grown up with and I was so happy with my children.
I don't know if any of this resonates with you, but I just thought I would pass it along.
Brigid
-
OMG! Wow! It's time to cut your losses and get on with your life! You don't need to be around someone who only has selective memory or who is constantly controlling you...you are already emotionally detached from S...now lets move on and have a happy life! Remember..this is the Show not the dress rehearsal! What a great guy you sound like...it's S' loss! As old "Blue Eyes" would say "pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get back in the race...that's life"
I don't pull any punches, I call it like I see it! I hope you aren't offended!
God Bless, ZsaZsa
-
Hey, Longtire. Your musings on "self" make me think of "the Power of Now" by Ekhar Tolle. He had a life changing experience when his formerly miserable "self" said " I can no longer live with myself" then he realized we all have two distinct "selves".... One is our life situation and one is our life. Realizing the distinction has helped me tremendously.
Another book I thought of here, was "The Secret of the Shadow (the power of owning your whole story) by Debbie Ford. Her premise is similar..we are not our "story". Our stories help to make us into who we are, but we do not need to be limited by them.
Bottom line....all esoteric nonsense aside...soon you may get to a point where you will need to (crass, I know, but) S..t or get off the pot!
I realize when I over think things that I am practicing avoidance. Which can be good....but not when it gets me "stuck".
Don't overdo the thinking. How are you FEELING and what do you want to feel like in your life? Don't worry about HOW to get there....just try to feel what you want. Then relax....it will come (or maybe it has?)
-
longtire,
An idea: Rent or watch movies/tv that show someone behaving in ways you'd like to emulate and internalize. [One suggestion is the original Kung Fu TV series with David Carridine.] Have fun with it.
bunny
-
On reflection, I believe that the joint counselor was/is invested in "their techniques" working rather than fixing the problems. For example, when she told me that I should have talked with my wife and gotten her viewpoint early in my marriage I told her that I did that in a soft spoken, passive body language way. She told me that I obviously could not have. I couldn't have done it "correctly" without the awareness from their Imago retreat. I was offended at the time, but now, I'm thoroughly disgusted. I think that this is why I feel like she sided with my wife. My wife bought into the whole Imago thing and got to claim that I had never done it right before. Yeah, OK forget that I've been mentally and spritually aware my entire life, and forget that I went through 7 years of therapy, and forget all those self-help books I read, and even forget the fact that I thought about my marriage and my wife and what I could do to help improve things WAY more than was healthy, I hadn't taken her class yet!!!! How could I possibly do ANYTHING right without that. :evil: I'm starting to wonder if the counselor has some supressed N tendencies and may feel some sort of bond with my wife or despise me for being the victim all those years. In any event, the counselor completely failed to address the fact that there was (verbal) abuse going on in this relationship and that "standard" couples therapy would be HARMFUL until that was addressed. Now that I've had a couple of weeks of distance, I feel traumatized and missed by the joint counseling, though some good came out of it for me.
I didn't have an emotional grounding growing up. Now I realize that God made me the way I'm supposed to be. There was never anything wrong with me. My parents were not able to give me that message and instead passed on how they felt about themselves, that there was something wrong with them. I feel exactly what I'm supposed to feel. If that's not like anyone else then it makes it that much more rare and valuable. I just did an inner dialogue and invited in the part of me trying to protect me by keeping me ungrounded, distanced, unconnected to the people around me. His name is "bin" ??? and he's 3 years old. He started protecting me after he asked for closeness and was rejected outright by my parents. He has agreed to give up the protection to the adult me and go back to doing what he was made for, pure loving and living. I think the problems I've had over the last day or two were "bin" putting up a last ditch fight to keep me "protected," even though the rest of me was moving toward being open and connected with people around me.
I no longer believe that leaving this marriage is about whether my wife is NPD, BPD, or anything else. I am simply not attracted to her any longer. I don't mean just physically, I mean I just don't see any point to sharing the rest of my life with her. If ALL her issues fell off her this moment, I would feel the same way. The reality is she still has all those issues which makes it even more difficult than it would have to be. Staying, going, or otherwise. This was more about me finding my center than it ever was about her. I think that I've been codependent with her for so long, it took this for me to realize that ITS NOT ABOUT HER!!! Its never been about her. Its about me, and I'm alright. There's nothing wrong with me except that in the past I kept insisting that there was something wrong with me. Unintentional parental brainwashing (UPB). Ooohh! Look at my new acronym! :D
I can't say that I always enjoy solving my problems and agonizing over the possibilities before taking action. But, this is MY way to work through things. It does work out best for me in the end to pay up front. Don't expect me to stop complaining when I'm in the middle of it, though!
As a child I didn't get to choose my parents or what they taught me or how they related (or didn't) to me. I do get to choose my family now. I choose my daughter because she is just the neatest person I have ever been priveleged to know. I choose the people here who have helped me so much with support and suggestions. I choose a few special friends from work who can empathize and share their own experiences beyond the norm. I'm choosing people at church who are caring, supportive, and accepting. I even choose my parents (when I'm feeling self-sufficient). I've done a lot of work in that area over the years! I choose my cat, who doesn't care what else is going on in my life, he is very direct with his commands. I don't choose "good" people or "perfect" people. I choose people who are willing to risk sharing themselves. Knowing the risks, they are able to appreciate the gift of my sharing as I appreciate theirs.
I own my story, even the parts I don't know about yet. It is painful to put a new chapter into the story. Doing that involves rewriting some of the other chapters to get everything to fit together. When I'm done, the story is giant steps better every time. And best of all, its MY story. Still, my story is the past. I have today to act and tomorrow to choose.
-
Wow, Longtire, I hope you print out and save that last post. You are pretty cool. I hear a power in this voice that sounds true and pure.
Bless you. (and congratulations!)
-
There's nothing wrong with me except that in the past I kept insisting that there was something wrong with me.
Is this one of those phrases you write out and keep in your wallet? Can I use it too please? Great, thanks. :D
Unintentional parental brainwashing (UPB). Ooohh! Look at my new acronym!
I love your new TLA!
Aren’t cats just so great? 8) Your post is joy to read longtire! portia - hey you tempted me out of hiding! Thanks again.
-
Longtire:
You sound so much more at peace. I'm so glad! :D
You have an amazing talent with words.
Don't expect me to stop complaining when I'm in the middle of it, though!
To the contrary, let it out!! There will be less baggage with you later. Two steps forward, one step forward, 1/2 a step forward, pause, another wee step, another one...keep going Longtire. There may be a bit of back stepping once in awhile, but for the most part, you are clearly moving forward!
GFN
-
Well, I must be in a good place today. :) The sun is shining, the sky is blue and I feel happy. Right now, I really appreciate how much I needed those steps backward. I needed to retrace my path all the way back to point where I diverged from the right way to be. For me, that means at least as far back as I can remember, when I was 2-3 years old. :( I had to go that far back to recover the idea that there is nothing wrong with me. Yes, I know you've all been telling that, but I couldn't see or hear it for myself through the haze of my parents' second-hand self-denial.
The first part of this was the Core Transformation that the counselor did for me, the silver lining of that situation. One technique of CT is going backwards through your life until you are born, experienceing yourself in that pre-born innocence and perfection. Then going through your life forwards again, this time carrying that feeling of peace and "all is right" throughout all of your experiences. This was really transforming for me and opened me up to further work. However, it didn't "stick" because I had no anchor point to tie that feeling onto. It would sort of float away unless I kept doing it (which I did). Now that I have recovered the part of me that deliberately chose to detach to try to keep me from being rejected, I have the right place to tie these things down to. I'm grounded now. I'll have to keep working on it to feel completely confident.
So where I am today, I can see that my therapist was trying to get me to clear up my fuzzy boundaries over where my problems in this marriage are. At the time it really raised my defenses and it felt like I was being attacked. In reality, I panicked because I couldn't find my boundaries. Plus, bin was terrified of giving up control without a responsible adult around (me now). With nothing to tie them down, my boundaries were just drifting all over the place. :( This is why I have been waffling back and forth so much. My boundaries were getting blown with the wind. Now I have an anchor point. I understand there is nothing wrong with me, my feelings, etc. Now I realize that I have no real concept or proficiency with boundaries. :? Oh boy, just what I needed, more work! :roll:
So now I know what the underlying problem in my life has been (I hope, fingers crossed). I know that I can learn to have good boundaries, especially looking at all the things I was able to learn while having ephemeral boundaries. Ephemeral boundaries, there's an oxymoron for you! :lol: Can you relate?
The first thing I found that is helping with this is, well is the support I get here. :D Okay, so the second thing I found which is helping me is this site: http://www.drirene.com Dr. Irene gets right to the point and says a lot in few words (my goal one day). That makes it easy for me to remember and repeat her adice to myself. Lots of good stuff here on personal responsibility for people who are or have been in an abusive relationship.
The second thing I am doing right now is reading "Boundaries" by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. I just "happened" to have this book laying around the house, but I've never read it. I don't even remember buying it, but I "found" it again last weekend. Just getting started on this.
-
longtire,
That Dr. Irene site looks great. I agree that boundaries are a huge part of the situation, including boundaries within oneself (bin, adult part) re: who gets to perform executive functions.
good work!!
bunny
-
Hi Longtire:
I'm so glad your therapist helped you and that you feel grounded and more clear with what to work on.
You just sound so much better and I'm glad. :D
GFN
-
Go Longtire GO!!!!!!!! :D :D
It's an amazing and humbling thing to follow your thread. The guts, the honesty, the love given and received here... I'm rooting for you, too, man. I want you to win, and you know what? You already have... you know stuff, you see stuff, and you found your B.S detector and it's on (o Lord, that retreat thing)!
And I'm so glad you're here because this site is the best insurance policy I think I have ever seen in my life... against having awareness make you bitter... awareness can be painful but bitterness is optional... hmm, I should put that one in my wallet.
((longtire))
Stormchild
-
Such a moving story sir. I am hurting for you and am sorry your wife put you through such misery. She has chronic Destructive Narcissistic Pattern (DNP) behavior. Unfortunately with these types of people, it takes years and years for their destruction to hit. All along destroying the lives around them.
I am a child of a DNP father. In the past 6 months, I have come to the conclusion, the only way to deal with DNP behavoir is to be co dependent - to separate from it. It is toxic to yourself, your marriage, and your children. And it will never end. It only gets worse. I recently stood up to my father and he got so enraged, it shattered any hope of a future relationship with him.
Hang in there, believe and stand strong that the decision you made IS a good one and will continue to bring peace to your life.
-
Well, I'm still in a good place today. My life continues to be "eventful," though. I went to a church men's encounter this weekend that was excellent! I dumped a lot of crap (fear, shame, seeing myself as broken and wrong) that I have been carrying for a long, long time. During one session, each of us spoke individually to our group leader as if he were our father. Wow I had a lot of sadness and loss come up and I was crying like a baby! Everyone was crying like babies! :cry: It was great. :D I've got a LOT more work to do with my parents, that is obvious to me now.
I believe that I've got my integrity back again. Or maybe I've really got my integrity for the first time ever. What do I mean by that? Well starting about a year and a half ago, I began screaming and swearing at my wife sometimes, whether she had "done" anything at that moment or not. More recently, I "skipped town" with a friend to help him move his parents and had my car fixed without telling her. Granted, there were extenuating circumstances in each of these cases. However, this is not how I want to act. I don't want to be out of control and regret it afterwards. I want to be able to choose my actions and words without just reacting. I want to be able to look myself in the mirror each morning. Both getting anchored to myself and reading the "Boundaries" book are helping tremendously with this.
On the one hand, I understand that I needed to go through this and feel my anger and rage at what has happened in order to move through it and heal and grow. It has been necessary to my life. On the other hand, I really dislike feeling like I'm a puppet dancing on strings, even if the puppeteer isn't aware of it. I'm motivated to get back to this point a quickly as possible. To me, integrity is having the self-control to feel all my feelings, and then to responsibly choose the best course of action for me and the people around me. I'm not under any illusion that I will never screw up, but I don't like saying "screw it!" either. Reacting to someone who is reacting back is just a miserable situation for everyone.
My wife had asked me to discuss a minimum amount spent from savings that merits a mutual discussion beforehand. I told her at the time that I needed some time to think about it and to check back with me tomorrow. Well, several days went by and I brought it up to her again. She said she was waiting for me to bring it up to her. OK, so I said that I had thought about it and I see it differently from her question. I said that I think savings should be for medical expenses and repairs only. For example, doctor visits, surgery, car repairs, house repairs, etc. As I mentioned car repairs, she interrupted and asked, "So your car was an emergency?" I said "No," and continued right on. I didn't take the bait this time, yess! (We had already had the conversation where I said I didn't check with her because she was not available and also because we did not have any agreement to do so.) I finished by saying, "so I think ANY amount should be discussed when its not an emergency, but never hold things up in a crisis." She ended up agreeing with me on both points.
This is one example I told my therapist about today for concrete experiences of communication problems between us. He told me that he thought my judgement in this is probably not right, according to the "hundred man" rule. Ask 100 people and look at the distribution of answers. If you're answer matches the middle of the pack, you are probably not reacting out of your own experience or past. If you lie on the extremes, chances are you are reacting more from your past than the actual event. I asked him whether he was trying to tell me that he thought I was reacting out of my past (previous judgement), rather than having a reasonable reaction to what I perceived as a provocation. He said Yes, that's exactly what he thought. He also said that based on that one incident, he didn't think that many people would see it as a big deal, or anything worth getting upset over. I agree with that statement, but this is covert verbal abuse I'm talking about, not physical abuse. I wouldn't expect that people who only see my wife's "front" to understand. I said "Ok, well let's keep going." I've got a million more!
At the end of the session, he praised me for doing much better this week on being anchored and concrete with describing my experience. He asked how I was doing with it this week since had I told him about having trouble after the last session. I told him that I was OK and still felt anchored this week. Oh yeah, we also spent a little bit of time discussing whether I felt like he was criticizing *me* when he told me that he thought my judgement was not based on the current event, but my past. I told him, "No, I'm confident in my feelings and experiences now." In other words I differentiate between *me* and my experience, which I DIDN'T do well at last week. :shock:
On the one hand, I can see how my judgement of my wife's interruption DID take into account my past with my wife. Maybe my wife meant that in a loving way this time. :? On the other hand, why would I throw out my previous experience with my wife and pretend that I don't see patterns when I do "judge" that there is a pattern going on? I'm sure his point is that I'm relying more on past experience than being open to all interpretations every time a similar thing happens. However, I have not had the opportunity to openly and honestly discuss it with my wife. I feel like I trust my judgement in this more than "pretending" to not see a pattern that my wife will not discuss and avoids.
I am curious (but not dependent :D) to hear your reactions to this. Have you had a similar experience with someone (therapist or not) telling you that they think you are "overreacting" or reacting to the past rather than what is going on right now? "Well that one thing didn't seem like a big deal to me" kind of thing?
-
On the other hand, I really dislike feeling like I'm a puppet dancing on strings, even if the puppeteer isn't aware of it. I'm motivated to get back to this point a quickly as possible. To me, integrity is having the self-control to feel all my feelings, and then to responsibly choose the best course of action for me and the people around me. I'm not under any illusion that I will never screw up, but I don't like saying "screw it!" either. Reacting to someone who is reacting back is just a miserable situation for everyone.
You sound mature and reasonable. :-)
I said that I think savings should be for medical expenses and repairs only. For example, doctor visits, surgery, car repairs, house repairs, etc. As I mentioned car repairs, she interrupted and asked, "So your car was an emergency?" I said "No," and continued right on. I didn't take the bait this time, yess! ... She ended up agreeing with me on both points.
Your not taking the bait probably allowed her to hold it together. If you'd reacted, she would have gone psycho. She had started heading down the psycho road, so to speak, and you prevented it. [Good.] I think your wife was afraid you were going to lecture, scold her, or something, and she started going nuts. Even though she said something sarcastic and lucid, she was no longer rational. You did the right thing, longtire.
If you lie on the extremes, chances are you are reacting more from your past than the actual event. I asked him whether he was trying to tell me that he thought I was reacting out of my past (previous judgement), rather than having a reasonable reaction to what I perceived as a provocation. He said Yes, that's exactly what he thought.
Hm. I think it was a reaction to your past (including your childhood) *and* you felt provoked by her snitty comment. Spouses often provoke each other's triggers from the past. They are masters at it.
Maybe my wife meant that in a loving way this time. :?
No. She was fighting for survival at that moment.
I'm sure his point is that I'm relying more on past experience than being open to all interpretations every time a similar thing happens. However, I have not had the opportunity to openly and honestly discuss it with my wife. I feel like I trust my judgement in this more than "pretending" to not see a pattern that my wife will not discuss and avoids.
(1) I'm not sure that's his point. He may think you are reacting powerfully to triggers from the long-ago past. Not necessarily the marital past but childhood. (2) I don't think you need to put every possible interpretation on your wife's behavior. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that she is volatile and impulsive. That her grasp on reality is tenuous and she doesn't remember a lot of things. (3) Do not discuss any of this with your wife unless you have an excellent marital therapist in the room.
Have you had a similar experience with someone (therapist or not) telling you that they think you are "overreacting" or reacting to the past rather than what is going on right now? "Well that one thing didn't seem like a big deal to me" kind of thing?
YES. Two separate therapists pointed out my overreactions to my H. I believe the word "distortion" was used a few times. I was furious with the therapists for being so heartless as to tell me. I felt totally criticized and sided against. However after some thought, I agreed with them. I also worked on the problem. In the case you just described, you did NOT overreact to her because you didn't take the bait! Maybe you reacted to her internally but not via your behavior. That's a big difference.
bunny
-
Longtire,
Again, as a 'virgin' where therapy is concerned I may not know my arse from a hole in the ground :shock: as we used to say in the Air Force, BUT,
He told me that he thought my judgement in this is probably not right, according to the "hundred man" rule. Ask 100 people and look at the distribution of answers. If you're answer matches the middle of the pack, you are probably not reacting out of your own experience or past. If you lie on the extremes, chances are you are reacting more from your past than the actual event.
Don't you first need to get 100 people who have been manipulated and abused by a head case for twenty years before you can establish the median and the extremes? This seems like saying our reaction to someone accidentally dropping a hammer on our pinky toe once should be the same as someone intentionally hitting us for the 500th time on the pinky toe with a hammer. Am I missing a fine therapeutic point?
Anyway, you sound very strong and confident this week. If it was your therapist, more power to him. :D
mudpup
-
I'm sure his point is that I'm relying more on past experience than being open to all interpretations every time a similar thing happens. However, I have not had the opportunity to openly and honestly discuss it with my wife. I feel like I trust my judgement in this more than "pretending" to not see a pattern that my wife will not discuss and avoids.
(1) I'm not sure that's his point. He may think you are reacting powerfully to triggers from the long-ago past. Not necessarily the marital past but childhood. (2) I don't think you need to put every possible interpretation on your wife's behavior. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that she is volatile and impulsive. That her grasp on reality is tenuous and she doesn't remember a lot of things. (3) Do not discuss any of this with your wife unless you have an excellent marital therapist in the room.
bunny, I get #3 here! I'm just starting to really be able to keep myself in check when something goes "wrong." I'm not practiced enough yet to go looking for trouble. :D
Have you had a similar experience with someone (therapist or not) telling you that they think you are "overreacting" or reacting to the past rather than what is going on right now? "Well that one thing didn't seem like a big deal to me" kind of thing?
YES. Two separate therapists pointed out my overreactions to my H. I believe the word "distortion" was used a few times. I was furious with the therapists for being so heartless as to tell me. I felt totally criticized and sided against. However after some thought, I agreed with them. I also worked on the problem. In the case you just described, you did NOT overreact to her because you didn't take the bait! Maybe you reacted to her internally but not via your behavior. That's a big difference.
Yes, I responded this time instead of reacting. Big difference. It really helps give me more confidence. Also, I'm very curious. How did you work on the problem, and what kinds of things did you think about? I'm reading the boundary book and pursuing my long lost integrity for now.
He told me that he thought my judgement in this is probably not right, according to the "hundred man" rule. Ask 100 people and look at the distribution of answers. If you're answer matches the middle of the pack, you are probably not reacting out of your own experience or past. If you lie on the extremes, chances are you are reacting more from your past than the actual event.
Don't you first need to get 100 people who have been manipulated and abused by a head case for twenty years before you can establish the median and the extremes? This seems like saying our reaction to someone accidentally dropping a hammer on our pinky toe once should be the same as someone intentionally hitting us for the 500th time on the pinky toe with a hammer. Am I missing a fine therapeutic point?
Well, I can see his point. At the same time, I can see how easy it could be to misuse this concept. Also, I think his point was that if you have 100 people see and hear the events you did, not just 100 random people off the street. Now that I think about it some more, I'm pretty resistant to being held to a "popular" standard. As an INTJ, and HSP, and just as my own person, I don't fit the popular mold. I think part of my reaction to this is to try to figure out how I can still be me while fitting in enough. When I describe my experiences here others seem to respond similarly (or more violently :) ) than me. Maybe that's because most of us share a background with these kind of relationships?
-
Don't you first need to get 100 people who have been manipulated and abused by a head case for twenty years before you can establish the median and the extremes? This seems like saying our reaction to someone accidentally dropping a hammer on our pinky toe once should be the same as someone intentionally hitting us for the 500th time on the pinky toe with a hammer. Am I missing a fine therapeutic point?
GO MUDPUP!
YESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!
We need an emoticon for jumping up and down & waving your arms in the air.
-
I'm pretty resistant to being held to a "popular" standard. As an INTJ, and HSP, and just as my own person, I don't fit the popular mold. I think part of my reaction to this is to try to figure out how I can still be me while fitting in enough. When I describe my experiences here others seem to respond similarly (or more violently :) ) than me. Maybe that's because most of us share a background with these kind of relationships?
Possibly your therapist used a clunky example when he could have just said, "I think you're reacting to something else, don't you?" Instead he made it sound like it's better to be part of a herd. Not an appealing idea.
IMO our internal distortions and overreactions are not a big problem if we think before acting. It's not pathological to have strong reactions to earlier triggers. The problem comes when we impulsively take action on the feelings (take the bait). That's what the therapists were telling me. It was my behavior they focused on. Not whether I "felt" too strongly about something. Their attitude was, change your destructive behavior and the dynamic in the relationship will improve. In your situation, the more obvious destructive behavior is on your wife's side and she needs to work on it (if she can manage it). You are working on your side of it.
bunny
-
Great to hear that you are doing so well in therapy!
He told me that he thought my judgement in this is probably not right, according to the "hundred man" rule.
Well, he doesn't know your wife as well as you do though, didn't get to hear the tone of her voice or see the way she was looking at you. But note the "probably" in the quote above, says a lot when we notice it, doesn't it? Sure, a lot of us here has a tendency to overreact, but I believe, like you, that it is a stage we have to go through.
She ended up agreeing with me on both points.
She doesn't know howto react when you don't take her bait. She is starting to fear that you will actually leave, and is going along with your terms b/c she is scared.
Anyway you seem to be moving ahead at rocket speed, and I'm so happy for you. Keep up the good work, take care of bin, and don't let your wife get you down!
-
Ugh, rough night tonight. Actually, was good most of the day. Had dinner with my daughter and we talked about her boyfriend issues. She is one smart, together girl! Then we watched "5 People You Meet in Heaven." Excellent movie, but left me feeling sad, lonely, and melancholy. :( My wife got home partway through the movie and then went to bed shortly after it ended. We talked a bit about our current therapy costs to make sure no problems or misunderstandings. We also talked about getting an excercise bike from savings, if moeny allows, my idea.
OK, so let me back up and tell you more about the last few days. After the church encounter, I was able to shed a lot of negative stuff, negative self-image, fear, shame. I talked with my daughter and basically told her that I love her and asked her what I could do to help show her and meet her needs from her father. She said "hugs" so we have been doing that more. I love her very much. :D
The next day, after I had a chance to collect my thoughts, I talked with my wife. I told her that I was sorry about bringing my family sexual issues (parents conceived me before marriage too) to our marriage, getting her pregnant and helping to start our marriage off on the wrong foot instead of good footing. I told her that I wanted to heal that and not continue to have this as a problem between us. I told her about my experience and my growing faith and she thanked me for telling her. Then she opened up some and told me that she is concentrating on finding God as well through the counselor. She is trying to shed all those critical, demanding external voices like her mom and old preachers and find a personal relationship with God. I didn't push and we pretty much left it at that. It was actually a good conversation with almost no defensiveness from either of us.
So tonight, I checked up on my wife's internet usage. Yes, I know BAD idea. Yes, very codependent. Yes, I know I deserve what I get. :cry: She has been looking into houses and moving and a lot of stuff like that recently and curiousity got the better of me to go check. Well, no houses or the like. She has been doing a lot of searches on sex images over the past couple of days (since we had that talk). I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not. A lot of stuff on oral sex for both men and women and a lot of basic "what is sex?" stuff. Other things like cuddling, intimacy, etc. This could be good because the counselor has been suggesting for some time that she get more comfortable with her body and with sex. I'm not sure that I would hope that this has anything to do with our talk the other day, but there's always a possibility.
It could be bad because she hasn't hinted anything about it to me. The other bad point is that she was looking up the address and phone for a guy she has worked with in the past. He's young and hunky, and all the women want him. She does often get together with people from work, so that's not unheard of. Still, Bleagh! Yes, I know if she were to go to him, it means that it is over and I can move on. I have no proof of anything wrong, but I know that we DON'T have anything approaching a stable, close relationship right now.
I hate being codependent. I hate not being able to just talk with my wife openly and honestly without her acting out. I hate being completely in the dark as far as she's concerned. I know I can leave this relationship at any time if I decide it is not healthy for me. I'm not shutting off these rejected, excluded, lonely feelings I am haveing HUGELY right now. I am feeling them fully and trying to give them as much room as possible. For me this marriage is still important and a priority until proven otherwise. For my own integrity and ability to look myself in the mirror, I am going to pursue this to the end, whatever that may be. If it doesn't work out because my wife is not able to commit to staying and growing, that there's nothing I can do but leave. If she is able to commit then all the better. Either way, I'm doing what I believe is best for me right now.
I can practically hear bunny cringing right now, or maybe that's some others of you. Yes, I might be making a mistake, the same one I always make. Yes, this may just be a bounce and I'll feel the opposite again next week. I believe this is what I want right now, awful feelings and all. I choose this course, fully aware of what might happen. I am actually living my life and taking risks. That's good, even though I feel crappy dealing with all these feelings right now. :) Besides, I have to start living up to my daughter's example and do as I tell her to do, which she does.
After writing all this, I feel a bit better and more focused again. I plan to ask my wife tomorrow if there is any other kind of interaction that she feels comfortable with right now. If not, no pressure. If so, then I'll know. Either way, I'll know.
In the meantime, I'm still working on my stuff. I have been reading on "cognitive distortion" and "cognitive readjustment" on the internet, in addition to the boundaries book. I think I'm starting to get a glimmer of understanding. Baby steps every day....
-
Hi Longtire, some brief thoughts as I read you:
getting her pregnant
it takes two, she got pregnant, she takes half the responsibility.
I checked up on my wife's internet usage. Yes, I know BAD idea.
Um not necessarily. If someone can’t/won’t talk to you, then get information however you can. That’s practical. You have to deal with what you find. But would you rather have ignorance is bliss? Not me.
I hate being codependent. I hate not being able to just talk with my wife
Those two things aren’t necessarily related. In fact I don’t think they are, with you. I don’t think you are codependent. I think you’ve been doing the work of both people in this marriage. That’s not co-dep is it? That's taking too much responsibility for things which you're not responsible for. I think.
I can practically hear bunny cringing right now, or maybe that's some others of you.
‘twas me sir, just then. Probably bunny and others too!
I plan to ask my wife tomorrow if there is any other kind of interaction that she feels comfortable with right now
Hope she doesn’t say yes, but with that hunky guy :shock: (hope you smiled).
If not, no pressure. If so, then I'll know. Either way, I'll know.
Will you really? You know, given your ‘evidence’ here, I’d be thinking about maybe having a PD follow her. :shock: Okay that sounds OTT. But I might. :? In divorce your daughter comes first, to the courts. Who would your daughter want to live with? If your wife is thinking of having an affair – leaving you before you leave her kind of thing – you don’t have to watch it happen without doing something. Sorry Longtire I’m being very harsh and cold here but she makes me feel like that. I want to protect you from your own goodness! – because other people can be downright cruel in their self-destructiveness. Take care and I’m so glad you don’t feel so alone with this. hug P
-
getting her pregnant
it takes two, she got pregnant, she takes half the responsibility.
Yes, from what she's told me, she was acquiescing to sexual activity to "keep" me around, at least until we got married.
I checked up on my wife's internet usage. Yes, I know BAD idea.
Um not necessarily. If someone can’t/won’t talk to you, then get information however you can. That’s practical. You have to deal with what you find. But would you rather have ignorance is bliss? Not me.
It's the dealing with what I find that is tough. It would be much easier to simply sit down and talk about it in my opinion.
I hate being codependent. I hate not being able to just talk with my wife
Those two things aren’t necessarily related. In fact I don’t think they are, with you. I don’t think you are codependent. I think you’ve been doing the work of both people in this marriage. That’s not co-dep is it? That's taking too much responsibility for things which you're not responsible for. I think.
What you describe is pretty much the definition of co-dependency. Taking on responsibility for stuff that isn't mine in order to control the realtionship and maintain it or keep it "safe."
I plan to ask my wife tomorrow if there is any other kind of interaction that she feels comfortable with right now
Hope she doesn’t say yes, but with that hunky guy :shock: (hope you smiled).
I get it. I'd like to know where things stand for sure. That would take a lot of uncertainty out of the situation. For now, I am tolerating the uncertainty and working on my own reactions.
If not, no pressure. If so, then I'll know. Either way, I'll know.
Will you really? You know, given your ‘evidence’ here, I’d be thinking about maybe having a PD follow her. :shock: Okay that sounds OTT. But I might. :? In divorce your daughter comes first, to the courts. Who would your daughter want to live with? If your wife is thinking of having an affair – leaving you before you leave her kind of thing – you don’t have to watch it happen without doing something. Sorry Longtire I’m being very harsh and cold here but she makes me feel like that. I want to protect you from your own goodness! – because other people can be downright cruel in their self-destructiveness. Take care and I’m so glad you don’t feel so alone with this. hug P
Portia, Thanks for the hug. It always helps. Hiring someone to do some checking is not a new idea, 've thought about it already. So far, I have NO reason to believe anything is actually happening, just my fear that it might. Rationally, I believe that my wife is hyposexual, or sexual anorexic. The real fear I have is that she will act out to "prove" that is not the case by having a sexual relationship with someone else in a control mentality. That is my stuff to deal with. I'm not jumping to conclusions here, but want to ackowledge my feelings and fears about the situation.
-
Well, very little sleep for me last night, maybe 2 hours. I've had this problem before and know anymore how to get myself back on a schedule to get enough rest quickly. 3 day weekend coming up. :D :D :D All kinds of stuff was coming up for me last night so I did journaling since I wasn't able to sleep anyway.
I did more work on forgiveness. Actually, I should say I checked where I'm at with forgiving her, since I haven't made much progress for several weeks due to all the other stuff coming up for me. I believe that I've forgiven her now and not only are the anger and resentment gone, but I have compassion and caring for her now. Honestly, looking at my story, do you think she's happy and peaceful or even understands what that means? I still have to figure out how to tell her I forgive her in a way she can understand. If she gets defensive and freaks out then that's her reaction. I would like to get my point across, though. Its almost anticlimactic to forgive now. I thought there would be trumpets sounding or something like that. I basically just decided that I don't want to carry around that load of anger and resentment that keeps me from moving on anymore.
I am feeling a lot more angry with the joint counselor than I realized. It was a reasonable expectation to expect her to know what to do when one of the parties alleges verbal abuse and denial and dissociating are going on. Simply saying, "do more Imago, that will fix it" is not competent care in that situation. Ignoring my questions of "I don't see how more Imago will fix our basic communication problem," and being told to just do more Imago. On numerous occasions I talked about how it was hard to trust my wife due to the mixed messages I repeatedly get. "Do more Imago to build trust." At one point she suggested something that I had done in the past with disatrous results. When I said that I had tried that before and it didn't work out well at all she told me, "You couldn't have done that. You hadn't come to our class yet." Gag! No other therapist, book, or self-examination could possibly allow me to do it, or do it the "right way," only her class. :evil: Why not say something like "I believe that behavior X has changed in you or your wife and trying that again now might be more successful" in that situation? Her common reaction was that since she didn't see the covert abuse going on in her office (Duh, its covert! and I was very reactive in there, wonder why? :evil:) that she wouldn't bother to address it. I was looking for advice on how to handle the situation when those things happened, not a rote answer which did not address the problem. I didn't realize that I would be victimized again by someone telling me the things I saw and heard weren't happening because they didn't personally see it. BTW, the basic problems that I see are that my wife sabotages communication to avoid intimacy and that I am codependent and take on responsibility for some of her stuff to keep the relationship toegether. I'm working on my stuff. I can't do anything about hers. Now, I'm concerned about what she told my therapist and whether he takes her opinion over listening to me.
I plan to ask my wife if there is anything she feels comfortable mutually exchanging to meet needs, like more physical contact. From what I've heard from her, physical (not sexual) contact like hugs, shoulder pats and holding hands appear to be some of her primary needs (re: 5 Love Languages). I insist that it be mutual. If she isn't willing to give it, she isn't willing to get it! I believe that I can do this in a caring way now, without being reactive. That would remove her blaming me for not being willing or not doing it. If she blames me for doing it wrong/badly, as often the case in the past, then I will put the onus on her to explain what she wants more clearly and let her own all that. Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised. Maybe it will still be the same as in the past due to her fear of intimacy. Either way, I am doing what I say I will. The only way out is through? I'm all about handing her back all her stuff that I've carried around all these years.
I've really come to see that for me talking and sharing verbally with the other person is my primary need for intimate relationships. How about that, a guy who wants to talk! Well, talk first anyway. I am a healthy male after all. :twisted:
-
longtire,
I am not cringing at anything you said. I believe you have very powerful reasons for remaining in this marriage and that the problems might even be worked out at some later date. Or you'll find a way to live with her. I don't really see divorce in the cards, to be honest.
I don't blame you for reading her email but I think it's optimal if you don't do it anymore. And hopefully you'll tell your therapist you did it. The reality check is, I don't think she is going to leave you for another man. That is almost laughable to me (sorry). She may have crushes, or fantasies, but they are at a schoolgirl level.
As you pointed out before, she is like a little girl and she isn't really old enough for sex. She may not even be old enough for adult hugs, pats, or touching. If you keep that in mind, I think it'll be okay.
If you need a person you can talk freely to, she isn't it. That is one price for remaining in this marriage. You may have to find people outside the marriage who can meet that need. My H doesn't meet some of my deep needs and I'm getting them met on this ng. It doesn't mean we have to get a divorce. It means we need to find ways to adapt to each other's limitations.
bunny
-
Today was a good day for me! I am starting to catch on to what good, defended boundaries are. I thought that I had been detaching before, but my wife's stuff still bothered me. Now, I am starting (just!) to let it go and let her stuff be hers and not have it effect me one way or the other. I'm concentrating on me and what I want in life. I'm concentrating on living my own life and being OK regardless of what anyone else around me does or doesn't do.
I've been thinking about how what's going on in therapy doesn't seem to be very helpful to me right now. It seems like what we've been doing is indirect. Its like my therapist is trying to prove some point or other instead of just coming out and telling me what he thinks is going on. I would much rather just talk about it directly. Maybe he is onto something, but isn't sure what it is yet? I feel upset after therapy each week, but I haven't figured out yet whether that's because its working and bringing things up, or because it isn't working and I'm frustrated. I'm afraid that I might be reacting to avoid something that would help me. Plus, I've been thinking about dropping back to every other week since it doesn't seem very helpful at the moment. I plan to talk to him about all this next week.
I am working on figuring out what my boundaries really are and figuring out how I'm going to defend them they are encroached on. I feel entitled to live my own life now. That's one of the big reasons that today is a good day. I don't believe that I need my therapists help to do this. My mood has been getting more stable recently, not so many backs and forths. I think that I was trying to push a decision on whether to leave my marriage and wasnt (aren't?) ready for it. Hopefully, I will figure out where my boundaries really are and will then know whether to leave or not. That's all for tonight. If I haven't said recently, thanks for being here to support me through the ups and downs. (((((all)))))
-
I'm concentrating on me and what I want in life. I'm concentrating on living my own life and being OK regardless of what anyone else around me does or doesn't do.
Good.
I plan to talk to him about all this next week.
Definitely tell him. It's possible that your situation is also over his head. Or else he is stuck doing something that isn't working and needs to stop doing it. Sometimes a therapist hears a patient saying they need to make a decision. What the therapist should do (IMO) is talk about how the patient thinks decisions are made. Talk about the decision-making difficulties for the patient. not focus on the actual decision. The decision is often symbolic of something else, or not a real decision. Many therapists will get stuck thinking they'll "help" the patient "make the decision" and that will be therapeutic. It's not. What's therapeutic is to look at the struggle of the patient.
I personally think therapy would continue to be helpful to you. But the therapist has to be really good because you are smart and you are motivated. Your therapist has to keep up with you. I'm not sure this guy is doing that but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
bunny
-
Talked with my folks for about an hour about everything going on for me over the last several weeks. Yes everything, maybe it was an hour and a half. :) I'm letting them know the good bad and ugly about it, including my faults and failures. I want them to know me. I'm hoping that this will help me talk to them about issues I have from growing up with them. Until then I am grateful that I can lean on them for a while. I know a lot of people here have family who are not healthy enough to do that with.
I've been thinking about it, and I'm going to tell my therapist that working relationship issues with him is not working out for me and I'm going to find someone else. It didn't work out with him before and I stopped talking about it to concentrate on other things. I got those other things, this is what I need help with now. I'll practice my boundaries and non-reacting with him. :) Maybe he has actually been pursuing something and will change my mind. I'm open, but it needs to be good! Maybe I'm reacting with this and running away. I'm thinking about the possibility and I'm not just quitting and not showing up one day. If that is the case, I'll make a mistake and live with it. I deserve more help than I have been getting.
The therapist I've been seeing is a Ph.D. in "talk" therapy. He doesn't do any of the other sorts of things like CBT (EMDR, EFT, etc.). In the past I thought that I needed a Ph.D. to keep up with me (keep me honest), as my mind is agile, if not wise. Also, I'm stubborn! (We need a mule icon here!) I'm not so sure anymore. I'm beginning to think that a wise counselor who can handle my philosophical/logical experience of the world might be able to help me better. has anyone had experience with this kind of therapy or counseling?
-
Hi longtire,
It's amazing that you can now talk to your parents. My parents would be horrified if I tried to have an emotional conversation with them....anyway it sounds very good on that front.
I've been thinking about it, and I'm going to tell my therapist that working relationship issues with him is not working out for me and I'm going to find someone else.
And if he is a halfway decent therapist, he will quickly see a connection between this wish and your wish to leave the marriage.
I'll practice my boundaries and non-reacting with him. :)
Actually I'd practice stronger reactions with him. Show him your reactions (especially disappointment, frustration, anger) and see if he wises up to his errors in technique.
Maybe I'm reacting with this and running away. I'm thinking about the possibility and I'm not just quitting and not showing up one day. If that is the case, I'll make a mistake and live with it. I deserve more help than I have been getting.
Tell him this.
The therapist I've been seeing is a Ph.D. in "talk" therapy. He doesn't do any of the other sorts of things like CBT (EMDR, EFT, etc.). In the past I thought that I needed a Ph.D. to keep up with me (keep me honest), as my mind is agile, if not wise. Also, I'm stubborn! (We need a mule icon here!) I'm not so sure anymore. I'm beginning to think that a wise counselor who can handle my philosophical/logical experience of the world might be able to help me better. has anyone had experience with this kind of therapy or counseling?
My feeling is a therapist who knows about 'object relations' will help you. Whether they have a Ph.D. isn't that important. They can know object relations and still include CBT, EMDR, if they're into that. Often therapy is a grab-bag of various techniques. But object relations is the underpinning that allows them to truly grasp the situation and work with it. In fact, object relations theorists are the ones who came up with the modern concept of narcissism! They also came up with attachment theory and separation-individuation concept.
bunny
-
Hi longtire,
It's amazing that you can now talk to your parents. My parents would be horrified if I tried to have an emotional conversation with them....anyway it sounds very good on that front.
They aren't quite sure what to make of it all, but they try hard and tell me that they will support me whatever I decide. :) They were the first ones to tell me they were not surprised when I told them about getting a divorce a year ago.
I've been thinking about it, and I'm going to tell my therapist that working relationship issues with him is not working out for me and I'm going to find someone else.
And if he is a halfway decent therapist, he will quickly see a connection between this wish and your wish to leave the marriage.
Even I can see that one!
I'll practice my boundaries and non-reacting with him. :)
Actually I'd practice stronger reactions with him. Show him your reactions (especially disappointment, frustration, anger) and see if he wises up to his errors in technique.
Yes, I plan to let him know that I am disappointed and frustrated, without (over)reacting.
Maybe I'm reacting with this and running away. I'm thinking about the possibility and I'm not just quitting and not showing up one day. If that is the case, I'll make a mistake and live with it. I deserve more help than I have been getting.
Tell him this.
I will. I'm making a list so I don't forget anything. :)
Thanks, for being there bunny. I really appreciate that you take the time to read my posts and respond.
-
First of all, I have a new signature. I was hesitant to put it in because it could be a contender on the "Most Outrageous N Statements" thread. :) I'm willing to take that risk since I know that I'm coming from the other direction and always questioning myself. I feel like I need to be reminded everywhere I look that I'm OK until it sinks in.
Well, saw my therapist yesterday. Didn't tell him I wanted to leave. I had prayed about it the day before and got a firm "No!" when I asked if I should leave. Yeah, I know, take the religion over to the "Offending Dr. So-and-So" thread. :twisted: Sorry, I'm in a playful mood today. I told my T that I was frustrated and disappointed and that I didn't feel it was working for me. He agreed that we were "moving extremely slowly." I told him that his 100-man-rule was bogus and he said he won't use it anymore since it doesn't help me. I told him that I believe that he wasn't listening to me. He repeated back a lot of what I have been saying (he did hear) and assertively told me that *I* was being to hard to understand when talking about the concrete details of situations. I need to revisit that last one later. It was good to just tell him how I felt and what I thought WITHOUT trying to take care of him by being codependent. I didn't say he was wrong, I said how I felt and what I believed without worrying whether I was right or how he would react. That's a **HUGE** step for a codependent like me.
Then I told him what I've become aware of recently. Because of the utter lack of positive feedback growing up, I got the message that I was not seen as valuable (my parents couldn't see me). As a confused and hurting kid, I interpreted that as "*I* am not valuable." Ever since I feel like I do not have a real home or anyone to cheer me on, pick me up when I fall, or just be there to help when I need it. To some degree I was right about that because I chose to be around people who treated me that way. However, this feeling doesn't jive with my real experience. I am able to talk with my parents about what's going on in my marriage (good and bad) and they tell me they will always support me and be there for me no matter what I decide or what happens. I post here and get loving support and sometimes loving correction when I need it. :wink: I tell my good friends about what is going on and they support me, too. The excpetion in my life is my wife, who is only saying to me the SAME THINGS I BELIEVE ABOUT MYSELF! "It's all your fault, nobody could live with you, you only cause problems, you are clueless and don't see how you are causing all these problems." I see that I've been staying in this relationship to use it or the stability (what a joke!) of the situation as a (piss-poor) substitue for self-esteem.
When I asked my T what the basic problem was he pointed to his head and said "thinking!" He put it like this. "If you treated a dog the same way you have been treated, do you think he would start questioning himself?" No, of course not. The dog would react to the situation, probably feel "bad," but would never have the "awareness" to question whether there was anything fundamentally wrong with itsself or whether it "deserved" the treatment. It would just feel bad. I wonder if that's a reason why pets are so helpful when we're hurting. They just feel bad without any of the self-doubt and self-deprecation we humans engage in. Hence, my signature. I told him that I already knew this, but I have a hard time remembering it. My T suggested being aware of that and when I realize that it happened telling myself "I'm OK, I just forgot for a while!"
Wow, I feel free. I feel OK. I appreciate the world around me again. I love life. I'm excited! It is so true that all the good stuff comes through our being connected and accepting ourselves. Why is that so hard to do for so many of us?
-
Lontire: Why is it so hard for so many of us? Because we love. Because we care. Because we are connected to our inner joy. Because we know that joy is inside of everyone.....and we choose to see that instead of thier pain.....and we choose to trust rather than distrust. And when layers of other people's pain are thrown our way, we love still. Until we learn from them that love "must" mean pain. And then, we wake up, and wonder what happened and.........well that's why we are here.
I am so happy for you.
-
I told my T that I was frustrated and disappointed and that I didn't feel it was working for me. He agreed that we were "moving extremely slowly."
Good for you. Did he think moving extremely slowly had anything to do with him?
I told him that his 100-man-rule was bogus and he said he won't use it anymore since it doesn't help me.
Good again.
assertively told me that *I* was being to hard to understand when talking about the concrete details of situations.
How do you make yourself hard to understand? I can understand you. Maybe he's a bit slow on the draw....?? I'm not saying to dump him. I'm just questioning what he's referring to and why he's getting defensive.
It was good to just tell him how I felt and what I thought WITHOUT trying to take care of him by being codependent. I didn't say he was wrong, I said how I felt and what I believed without worrying whether I was right or how he would react. That's a **HUGE** step for a codependent like me.
Congratulations!! :lol:
When I asked my T what the basic problem was he pointed to his head and said "thinking!" He put it like this. "If you treated a dog the same way you have been treated, do you think he would start questioning himself?" No, of course not. The dog would react to the situation, probably feel "bad," but would never have the "awareness" to question whether there was anything fundamentally wrong with itsself or whether it "deserved" the treatment. It would just feel bad. I wonder if that's a reason why pets are so helpful when we're hurting. They just feel bad without any of the self-doubt and self-deprecation we humans engage in. Hence, my signature. I told him that I already knew this, but I have a hard time remembering it. My T suggested being aware of that and when I realize that it happened telling myself "I'm OK, I just forgot for a while!"
Not sure I get the stuff about a dog but I'm glad that you can just remind yourself without a lot of time-consuming agony.
good work!
bunny
-
Longtire, I LIKE your signature. A lot. Glad you picked it!
:D :D :D
Congrats on standing up to your t. Just being able to say that stuff and not be attacked must have felt pretty d**n good. [On edit: not that your t would attack, but everything in our lives has taught us that would be the most likely response. Bravo for going ahead anyway.]
Balloons to celebrate: QQQQQQQ
-
Thanks for the support bunny, stormchild, and mum. Thanks for the balloons stormchild!
I told my T that I was frustrated and disappointed and that I didn't feel it was working for me. He agreed that we were "moving extremely slowly."
Good for you. Did he think moving extremely slowly had anything to do with him?
He admitted that he didn't know why it was moving so slowly. I take that as an admission that he didn't really know what to do with me. :) In any case, it was good for me to speak up and do more to set the agenda. Kind of how its supposed to work anyway, no?
assertively told me that *I* was being to hard to understand when talking about the concrete details of situations.
How do you make yourself hard to understand? I can understand you. Maybe he's a bit slow on the draw....?? I'm not saying to dump him. I'm just questioning what he's referring to and why he's getting defensive.
Well, I have to admit that I'm not the most eloquent speaker in person. Typing online gives me a chance to re-read what I write and make sure that its clear. Beyond that, I was feeling very insecure about giving concrete details since I didn't believe I was being heard (false) and wasn't sure I was doing it right (afraid there was something wrong with me). The tone of the interactions felt confontational, rather than accepting, to me. I get nervous in those situations. I want to revisit it when I've consolidated this shift in my viewpoint. Believe me, I certainly have hundreds of concrete examples that I can give!
-
Hi Longtire:
What a great step ahead!! Way to go! :D
Well, I have to admit that I'm not the most eloquent speaker in person. Typing online gives me a chance to re-read what I write and make sure that its clear.
Me either. Are any of us? I mean, it's much easier to read and reread what is written and make it better each time. In real life, it comes out after a moment's thought and that's it. There's no taking it back..really.
It's hard to be clear when feeling anxious. Good for you for doing your best to express yourself! And the results are very good. My bet is you will only get better at it!
Stormchild! What a lovely creative thing to do......balloons!!!
Too 8) !
GFN
-
Hi GFN
Actually I think it was October who came up with balloons first, for Chutzbahgirl's birthday.
(goes and checks thread)
Yes, it was October. To her the credit! But thanks :D :D
Storm
-
Yeah, I know, take the religion over to the "Offending Dr. So-and-So" thread. Sorry, I'm in a playful mood today.
Keep the religion with you I say. If it’s your thing, it’s your thing. Just be sure it’s your thing and not someone else’s! Hope that makes sense. I’m encouraging you, nothing else. Do you mean playful or - what do you really think? Honesty hurts :D
"If you treated a dog the same way you have been treated, do you think he would start questioning himself?"
I think given half a chance the dog would leave. Is that what he meant? I wonder what he thought a dog would do. Are you ‘allowed’ to ask that, what the therp thinks so you can check his thinking? A cat would be firmly ensconced in another home by now, having bagged it’s place by the fire, demanded it’s favourite foods and arranged the humans’ timetable so that it received lots of stroking when it wanted it.
Hey thanks for setting me on the right understanding for co-dependency. I get it now, lots! And I do it, shucks, what a surprise. :roll:
I love your sign off.
-
He admitted that he didn't know why it was moving so slowly. I take that as an admission that he didn't really know what to do with me. :) In any case, it was good for me to speak up and do more to set the agenda. Kind of how its supposed to work anyway, no?
It was totally good for you to speak up. Otherwise he would control the glacier-like pace of these sessions. You are trying to speed this slowpoke up to a pace that feels like some therapy is occurring.
Well, I have to admit that I'm not the most eloquent speaker in person.
A few thoughts. (1) Does this therapist require that his patients be eloquent and thoroughly understandable? (2) Does this therapist get to assertively tell his patients that they aren't being clear enough to suit him? He needs to take responsibility for his errors in that room. If he can't understand what you're saying, then he needs to ask questions to clarify things -- not criticize you after you criticized him. That's getting defensive, which is an error on his part.
I'm also bummed that when you asked him what your problem was, he quickly answered "Thinking!" and gave an example of a dog that reminds me of the 100-man theory. Does he give homespun analogies to everything? He should not tell you what your problem is so quickly. How does he know? Maybe you have a complex constellation of issues. *sound of mind boggling*
Thanks for letting me vent my feelings, I hope it's not troubling to you. I'm still not saying to dump him. I just find him frustrating.
bunny
-
Ok, so on the dog thing, *I* got it and thought it was great. :D It felt like my T really was seeing and hearing me and replying in a way I could comprehend. I'll try to explain one more time. :roll: :D The dog would feel "bad" in response to a "bad" situation. It would NEVER blame itsself, because it is INCAPABLE of doing that. Just because *I* am capable of blaming (believing) myself for causing the situation doesn't mean there is a shred of truth in any of my beliefs. Its OK for me to just feel "bad" in response to my situation without blaming myself (or anyone else).
The only thing I was doing wrong in my leave/don't leave quandry was blaming myself. Actually, I was telling myself that there is something wrong with me, no one can like me because *I'm* unlikeable, if I leave this "relationship" I will be incapable of ever having another relationship, this is it, my last chance, I have no other support, I'll die, I'll become a hermit, I can't take care of myself, etc. No wonder I had a panic attack when I tried to walk out the door! It was all the B.S. I was telling myself that I "believed" that I wouldn't be OK on my own. Of course, I consciously don't believe ANY one of those nasty self-talk statements. I have recent evidence and experience disproving every last one. I couldn't see that I was stuck in this thought loop of my own creation:
My parents don't tell me they like me. So... (starting as a child)
My parents don't like me. So...
No one else could like me if my parents don't like me. So...
No on else likes me. So...
These must be something wrong with me if no one likes me, including my parents. So...
There is something wrong with me. So...
I can't have relationships with other people when there is something wrong with me because I will poison the relationship. So...
I have to figure out what is wrong with me before I can try to have relationships. So...
I haven't been able to figure out what is wrong with me. So...
I can't figure out what is wrong with me. So...
There must be something wrong with me because I can't even figure out what is wrong with me. So...
There is something wrong with me. So...
REPEAT
This is the tape that's been playing in my head since I was a kid. It may come back again, but I know I can say "*I'm* OK, I just forgot for a bit," when it happens. My T's point was that the only problem was my being stuck in this loop of thoughts (thinking). I am not depressed, NPD, BPD, AvPD, crazy, hallucinating or anything else. Well, maybe a bit neurotic. :oops: :D
-
Well thanks for explaining the dog analogy. I still don't get it, because dogs have feelings and I think they even cast blame. But I get the thought-loop deal.
I don't think it's as simple as disproving cognitive distortions with logic. That is important but the thoughts are going to be stronger than the logic. So you need additional things besides logic. You probably know this already.
thanks again,
bunny
-
Yes, that was me above, my post timed out. bunny, I always enjoy getting your take on things. You always surprise me and make me think! :D
It was totally good for you to speak up. Otherwise he would control the glacier-like pace of these sessions. You are trying to speed this slowpoke up to a pace that feels like some therapy is occurring.
I agree, and think I have a handle on why things have been going slow. My T said that he is trying to teach me skills and behaviors to better deal with the situations seem to trouble me, rather than explore abstract concepts. I realized that is not what I need. I need the higher level understanding first. Once I understand the issue from a conceptual level, it is usually blatantly obvious what I can do about it. Plus I am highly motivated to do it since I understand the costs and expected rewards. If I don't see what to do right away, it is blatantly obvious what book I need to read to find out what to do. :) For me, getting the big picture is hard, doing what I need to is realtively easy. Do you make the behavioral changes first and then understand the big picture later? I get the feeling that most people do things that way. Anyone else have comments on this?
I believe this is part of my personality that I see the big picture before I can make sense of the details. That can be frustrating as h%@# doing it, but I have deep, deep understanding of things when I'm done. Once I see the forest, I understand the trees. Before that, all the trees just seem unconnected and confusing. This is one reason why the whole "just pretend things are good and it will turn out that way" type of counseling or self-help has never worked for me. When my T stops trying to do things the "usual" way and dives in with me I usually make great progress, just like this time! Of course, I plan to discuss all this with him next week. :)
A few thoughts. (1) Does this therapist require that his patients be eloquent and thoroughly understandable? (2) Does this therapist get to assertively tell his patients that they aren't being clear enough to suit him? He needs to take responsibility for his errors in that room. If he can't understand what you're saying, then he needs to ask questions to clarify things -- not criticize you after you criticized him. That's getting defensive, which is an error on his part.
I saw my T for 6 years for depression. I literally couldn't put 2 words together rationally and mumbled for the first year and a half. (Talk about voiceless!) He was very, very patient with me. This time, he was trying to help me be clear and concrete when talking with others about these issues. His example was that a lawyer would tear me to pieces in court if my wife sued for a "fault" divorce. :x Aside from that, I want to be able to communicate my experience to others as clearly as possible. Since he was able to repeat back to me all the important points of what I've been telling him, it is clear that he hears and understands what I'm saying. Did (does) he miss the boat on what communication style I need. Yes, but I'll straighten him out on that! :D
Part of being verbally less than clear is my INTJ-ness, which leads me to qualify and complicate things instead of being assertive and direct. I try to be complete, thorough, and brutally honest, often at the expense of getting my point across. :oops: I have been working on that already. Check out my writing style now, compared to my earlier posts. I am far more direct now. Thanks to everyone here for allowing me to practice this. The other part of being less than clear was the self-doubt coming from that tape running through my mind. Did I really hear what I heard? Did I really see what I saw? I don't have that anymore. :D :lol: :) :D
I'm also bummed that when you asked him what your problem was, he quickly answered "Thinking!" and gave an example of a dog that reminds me of the 100-man theory. Does he give homespun analogies to everything? He should not tell you what your problem is so quickly. How does he know? Maybe you have a complex constellation of issues. *sound of mind boggling*
I'm thrilled that he did this! It actually helped me, as opposed to the things he had been trying previously. I can see how this looks wierd or maybe even wrong from your viewpoint. But, he told me what I needed to hear in a way that I was able to hear and understand. I groc'ed it right away. Also, his answer was for a specific question from me. It was not meant to be a blanket statment about me. And finally, I'm sure that if anyone has a complex constellation of issues, its me! :D
Thanks for letting me vent my feelings, I hope it's not troubling to you. I'm still not saying to dump him. I just find him frustrating.
Vent away! I'm not troubled by it at all. I enjoy thinking deep thoughts and considering your questions. It gives me a chance to become aware of a lot of the things I think, but never notice. :) I also find my T frustrating at times. When he's "on" like this time, he goes right to what I need to hear. Anyway, I'm not the deflated creampuff I was when I was depressed and first started seeing him. I take his not handling me with kid gloves now (he used to do this) as a sign that he respects my ability to be me. Also, knowing that he can take care of himself helps reduce my coddependent impulses.
-
Hi Longtire:
My parents don't tell me they like me. So... (starting as a child)
My parents don't like me. So...
No one else could like me if my parents don't like me. So...
No on else likes me. So...
These must be something wrong with me if no one likes me, including my parents. So...
There is something wrong with me. So...
I can't have relationships with other people when there is something wrong with me because I will poison the relationship. So...
I have to figure out what is wrong with me before I can try to have relationships. So...
I haven't been able to figure out what is wrong with me. So...
I can't figure out what is wrong with me. So...
There must be something wrong with me because I can't even figure out what is wrong with me. So...
There is something wrong with me. So...
REPEAT
I've experienced a similar type of circular, negative thinking pattern. It's hard to break out of sometimes. I like the idea your T suggested that it's ok for you to just feel what you feel, experience the feelings, without blaming anyone, especially yourself, and to tell yourself:
"I'm OK, I just forgot for a while!"
If you start back into the old pattern again. That is because......it is ok to just feel what you feel without blaming anyone, especially yourself.
I need to remember this one myself. Thanks for posting it all and I'm glad you're feeling better.
GFN
-
That's codependent impulses. I do not have an unhealthy compulsion toward fish. :shock:
-
Yes, that was me above, my post timed out. bunny, I always enjoy getting your take on things. You always surprise me and make me think! :D
I do what I can... :D
My T said that he is trying to teach me skills and behaviors to better deal with the situations seem to trouble me, rather than explore abstract concepts. I realized that is not what I need.
Good. Now you can pick up the pace and not spend session time on stuff you don't need.
Do you make the behavioral changes first and then understand the big picture later? I get the feeling that most people do things that way. Anyone else have comments on this?
I make a quick analysis of the big picture and change the behavior. And at this point I don't need a therapist to coach me on it. You probably don't either.
This is one reason why the whole "just pretend things are good and it will turn out that way" type of counseling or self-help has never worked for me.
You're way past this.
This time, he was trying to help me be clear and concrete when talking with others about these issues. His example was that a lawyer would tear me to pieces in court if my wife sued for a "fault" divorce.
I am rather confused as to why you have to be clear and concrete enough to satisfy an adversarial attorney, when you're in a therapy session. Also I'm a bit freaked out that he threatened you with the image of a lawyer tearing you to pieces. *sound of mind re-boggling*
At least he got the dog image right and you felt good about that.
I'm glad you are no creampuff.
bunny
-
Hi Longtire, glad to hear you're doing so well and that you don't have an unhealthy dependance on fish :D ! (I seem to notice that you joke a lot more lately, always a good sign.) I, too, loved the circular argument, I don't think I've ever seen it laid out quite so clearly before (who said you weren't eloquent?)
It's funny you think you go around the subjects because you're INTJ. I'm INFJ, and that's what gets me rambling, feelings popping up that tuen into side tracks (but if I say this I have to explain some of the background), you might win the "contest" for longest post, but I'm sure I win an award for the longest sentences (like this one). You say that you find it easier to express yourself in writing, so why not try this in therapy? I don't mean the whole session, that would really slow things down :) . But maybe if you wrote down somethings before each session that you wanted to focus on, that way you have a clearly expressed starting point and something concrete to return to if your mind (or your therapist's) begin to "stray". Just a thought.
Finally I'm going to play devil's advocate here. You are standing up to your therapist and being assertive towards him, doesn't this imply that maybe he is doing something right? Aren't we supposed to "rebell" against our therapists, I thought this was a sign of progress? But, of course, at the end of the day, only you know what is "right" for you, I just wanted to see things from another angle.
Whatever is going on, you are clearly making big progress, and judging from the last week's posts, I think you're moving pretty fast (now you only need to get your therapist to keep up with you :D ).
-
Hi Bunny and Longtire,
I enjoyed reading your posts about the whole therapist thing. Is it true that when we start feeling rebelious against our T we are getting better? I've always been a little rebelious against him. :twisted:
I'm feeling rather blah about mine right now - perhaps more about the whole process than him. He's a great guy - has helped me detatch in a huge way. The last time I was in he helped me to see how far I have to go. I'm bummed. I want to "graduate", get well, move on. It is really disappointing to look at how much my childhood with N's has impacted me.
Each time I go to see my T I want to have made progress. Perhaps that is my performing self. I learned how to "perform for love", be charming and needless at a very young age. Being an ENFP doesn't help - we are natural performers. So where do I start and the false self ends?
It's kinda funny really - I have a horrible time admitting my emotional/neurotic hang-ups. I want to be able to think my way through these problems. Feeling my problems after decades of repression can be excruciating. When I'm in pain I usually tell my T that "I'm too smart for this." I figured out how to survive the insanity as a kid and thought I was pretty smart. Now, I need to "dumb down" and just feel.
Chutz
-
Hi Bunny and Longtire,
Hi!
I enjoyed reading your posts about the whole therapist thing. Is it true that when we start feeling rebelious against our T we are getting better? I've always been a little rebelious against him. :twisted:
I'm feeling rather blah about mine right now - perhaps more about the whole process than him. He's a great guy - has helped me detatch in a huge way. The last time I was in he helped me to see how far I have to go. I'm bummed. I want to "graduate", get well, move on. It is really disappointing to look at how much my childhood with N's has impacted me.
Each time I go to see my T I want to have made progress. Perhaps that is my performing self. I learned how to "perform for love", be charming and needless at a very young age. Being an ENFP doesn't help - we are natural performers. So where do I start and the false self ends?
It's kinda funny really - I have a horrible time admitting my emotional/neurotic hang-ups. I want to be able to think my way through these problems. Feeling my problems after decades of repression can be excruciating. When I'm in pain I usually tell my T that "I'm too smart for this." I figured out how to survive the insanity as a kid and thought I was pretty smart. Now, I need to "dumb down" and just feel.
Chutz
This is a problem for me as well. I was a smart little kid to figure out how to "put myself away" for a long while until I was better able to deal with all of it. I'm a smart guy now. That can help some things, but it just doesn't matter when it comes to feelings and reactions. If I could have thought my way out of it, I'd have been done a long time ago. These days, I try to keep my brain in neutral and just let myself feel whatever is going on in the moment. My natural reaction is usually to jump right in and "solve" the "problem" right away so I don't feel bad about it any longer.
-
Each time I go to see my T I want to have made progress. Perhaps that is my performing self. I learned how to "perform for love", be charming and needless at a very young age. Being an ENFP doesn't help - we are natural performers. So where do I start and the false self ends?
I thought you were INTJ? Am I confused? Or have I misunderstood something?
-
I thought you were INTJ? Am I confused? Or have I misunderstood something?
He was quoting Chutzbagirl's post and the quote-thingee didn't quite work out. He is still INTJ.
bunny
-
Bunny, I just stopped myself doing exactly that and you've done it!
Longtire, you have many people rooting for you. Would you have answered guest above?
Guest, were you really confused?
Can I think of any more questions? Nope :roll:
Best wishes one and all, P
-
Is it true that when we start feeling rebelious against our T we are getting better? I've always been a little rebelious against him.
I think some rebellion is a good thing. :D
Each time I go to see my T I want to have made progress. Perhaps that is my performing self. I learned how to "perform for love", be charming and needless at a very young age. Being an ENFP doesn't help - we are natural performers. So where do I start and the false self ends?
Make an effort not to perform next time and see what happens. If you see yourself performing, tell the therapist that's what you're doing.
bunny
-
Oops, as bunny said, my quotes got crossed on that last post of mine. :oops: I was replying to Chutzbagirl, only the last paragraph was mine. I don't see much chance of not being INTJ anytime soon. :D Also, bunny's last reply was to CG, not me.
-
Thanks for the clarification. Apparently I am not confused and very happy that longtire is still INTJ.
-
Had to post this quickie. (Well for me :P)
Our anniversary is coming up soon. My wife asked what we were going to do to "celebrate." I said that I had not really thought about it. She said that she didn't want to go anywhere or have dinner or exchange "cards that don't say how I really feel right now." She would rather that we "give each other $300-400 to spend however we want," separately. :shock: I said "let me have a day or two to think about it," since that's now my standard response when I'm stunned by what she says. I'm going to tell her that I don't feel comfortable with that. :x
The interpretation I have was "I really don't like you, but I'll use this excuse to get more money. Reward me for not wanting to be around you on our anniversary" :shock: This falls in the category of "things I can't even imagine myself ever saying to another human being." I'm not saying I think she should be eager to celebrate an anniversary with me. I'm glad she is not asking for that because I don't think I could do it right now. She is acting very nice right now, but I'm not going to be fooled this time. "Little" things like this show me there are still massive problems between us.
-
She said that she didn't want to go anywhere or have dinner or exchange "cards that don't say how I really feel right now." She would rather that we "give each other $300-400 to spend however we want,"
Good Lord. Does she have $400 to give you?
I'm going to tell her that I don't feel comfortable with that. :x
No kidding! Here are two of my interpretations: "Prove you aren't going to divorce me by giving me a pile of cash like you always have," or, "I want more cash and an anniversary is a good opportunity to get it."
She is a spoiled little girl. That's all I can say.
bunny
-
When I asked my T what the basic problem was he pointed to his head and said "thinking!" He put it like this. "If you treated a dog the same way you have been treated, do you think he would start questioning himself?"
Ok, hope this doesn't offend anyone, but your eloquent (and subtle) observation, followed by that whole dog thing really reminds me of Dr. Phil.
I mean, I thought your observation about picking your wife because she reflected how you had been taught to think of yourself was really insightful. It may have been the most insightful thought you could possible have-- it seems that there is nowhere to go but up from there. Because everything opens up to you now-- now you can see if you can help your wife reflect something else, you can try to listen differently to the voice in your head when it says negative things, all kinds of great stuff! I got a lot out of your eloquent paragraph.
And your therapist listens to it and says it would be better if you were a dog.
It just seems too flip, too "television therapist."
Of course, I wasn't there :) But for what it's worth I am going to take your insight to heart myself.
-
How romantic!
"give each other $300-400 to spend however we want,"
Wasn't that a beautiful lovesong I heard once?
If you each give each other the money, why even bother?
If you asked her exactly what she meant by that request, would she be able to explain? [/quote]
-
Longtire, do you folks have a joint account? Or separate ones? 'Scuse me if I missed seeing this.
I was going to suggest that you make a date to go to the BANK on your anniversary, and each take out $300 - $400 of your own money; take a good look at it, standing next to each other; and then each of you either puts YOUR OWN MONEY back in the bank or keeps it.
Either way, you're each looking at your own earnings and you (Longtire) haven't been fleeced. :roll: :roll:
This only works, though, if you each earn, and you have separate accounts, and she doesn't withdraw $35 K and hop on a plane to the pole of relative inaccessibility (and if Longtire can keep from cracking up during the ceremony). Otherwise you still get fleeced, if she's taking money you earned that is otherwise needed now.
You could even make it black tie, or wear a tux... :lol: :lol: :lol:
[I'm not at all serious, but feel free to imagine doing this if you're tempted to take her suggestion seriously.]
(((Longtire)))
-
Stormchild, you are so funny!
Longtire, this is the kind of thing I meant about joking with her to see how she responds. I am just wondering if she can step outside of herself at all to laugh at absurdities like this. Sometimes jokes are a good way to say blunt sort of stuff, too, for example "that is a very odd idea, and a little insulting, too."
I mean, I'm not sure what you could do with her idea besides laugh at it.
-
I told her this morning that "I have thought about your request and I don't feel comfortable doing that." She seemed a little shocked and asked what my reasons were and I said that "I believe that if we're not doing anything, then we shouldn't DO anything." It wasn't my most "eloquent" exchange (thanks Vunil :) ), but I didn't justify. Yay, boundaries! :):):)
Right now both our paychecks go in the joint account. I make about five times what she does. We each get our equal "allowance" back out and put it in our separate accounts. Bills, savings, therapy, medical, etc. all comes out of the joint account. Its a bit of a pain, but its the first time in our marriage that we've ever had a financial "agreement" that she has kept her end of. The only reason she agreed to it this time was the counselor was really pushing her to do it.
It does make things easier for me. Now I know what I get to spend each paycheck and I don't try to live on whatever crumbs she leaves behind, if any! Also, if she breaks this agreement without prior discussion, I have no problem transferring my entire paycheck directly to my personal account from now on. :) Actually, even if she breaks it WITH prior discussion. :twisted:
As for joking about it, I have heard so many hateful, sarcastic comments from her covered by a sweet, innocent smile that I don't want to hear anything from her that isn't consistent between message and delivery. I think in a "normal" relationship jokling could be a good way to bring up emotionally charged topics. Sort of ease into it instead of a sudden slap on the face.
-
Hi longtire,
You know if you go back to your posts of a few weeks ago and read your posts now, it doesn't even sound like the same person. You are making tremendous strides in getting your feet on the ground and standing that ground.
God bless you and happy Easter. :D :D :D
mudpup
-
I've been wavering a bit yesterday and today. Nothing like what was going on previously. That was running frantically from side to side taking many steps each time. :? This feels like standing in place and leaning some back and forth some. 8) This feels like "normal" stuff that I can talk though, so here goes....
<<<
I haven't actually tried EVERYTHING with my wife, because I didn't have very good boundaries before. Now that I am starting to enforce my boundaries maybe she will change. (Bad reason, trying to change her.) If I leave now, it might still be my mistake and my fault that things didn't work out and it was really meant to be. (I'll live... :roll:)
>>>
Having boundaries will help me in every relationship in my life, including my inner one. I want to have boundaries with people who are basically safe to begin with because they already have their OWN healthy boundaries. Yes, boundaries will help me in the current situation, but will get a lot more exercise here. :evil: I do not want to help my wife change. I don't want to wait around for who knows how many years to see if and when and how much she changes. I have grown and I have tried in good faith in terrible emotional circumstances for a very long time. I have tried "enough." For the love of God, I tried to work things out with her when I was in the depths of depression and she was blaming me for literally every problem in our marriage!!!!!! I have tried enough.
<<<
The last thing I told my wife is that I have to stay because God hates divorce so I can't get one and I wouldn't kick her out or leave or put pressure on her anymore. (Yes, yes, I KNOW. That was one of those icky, crazy swings. No, that isn't what I really believe. Keep reading.) Things seem to have gotten less stressful since then. Maybe she will be more willing to work on her stuff if I continue to NOT try to work things out with her. (I need an emoticon for vomiting about 8 times in a row right here!)
>>>
I felt the need to put pressure on her to stop treating me like crap because I didn't enforce my boundaries and she was acting badly. I am enforcing my boundaries now. I still don't want to put pressure on her in any way because that still makes ME responsible for working to get HER to act decently. In a healthy relationship I would be able to just talk with the other person and explain what I want. Then, if that is something they can do and they care about me they can choose to do it or let me know they are not able to. My wife is not able to talk about ANYTHING relationship-wise right now, let alone in an open, honest way, let alone to consider me or my feelings as a human being. Not trying to leave when I clearly wasn't ready has helped me to calm down and given me time to work through more of my childhood issues. I may feel guilty about breaking my word on this, because being honest and trustworthy is really important to me. However, I can't have a 2-way discussion with her on this, so for my own safety I need to wait to tell her I changed my mind until I am ready to walk out the door.
<<<
Maybe I am screwed up and she has been right all along and I still can't see it.
>>>
Bullshit! I have tried to work things out between us in various ways over many, many years when I was not only NOT getting my needs met, I was putting up with her verbal and emotional abuse. I won't do that any longer. Not with her, not with anyone else. I wasn't perfect, I got angry a lot, I held onto resentment, but that does not mean that I caused the problems between us, just that I am human. I am a caring person with a lot of strength and other good stuff to offer. I won't allow that to be denigrated and despised any longer. The one true mistake I made was to originally choose and stay with someone who only repeated back to me the nasty, self-hating things I used to tell myself because I didn't know any better. I've learned since.
<<<
>>>
Is that all you've got?!?! C'mon, I could go on all day long. Come back if you find with anything that isn't a complete load of crap. I'll be ready! :mrgreen:
Wow! Where did all that come from? It feels great to point my anger toward anything that is tells me NOT to take care of myself or that I'm NOT a good person. Take that!
Really connecting with the fact that there is nothing inherently wrong with me as a human being let me drop the idea that I have to expect to be treated badly because there is something wrong with me and I don't deserve to be treated better. Bullshit again! Since there is nothing wrong with me, I can have good relationships with people and I don't have to be afraid of being abandoned like I did as a kid.
Not being afraid of being abandoned anymore, I have been able to face the fact that I have not loved or liked or even respected my wife for many, many years. Maybe ten years! Yikes!!!!! :shock: I thought that getting better in therapy would fix the problems, since I erroneously thought I was somehow causing the problems at that time. Funny thing is, the more I grow, the more I accept responsibility, the less I want her in my life. My growth hasn't fixed the relationship problems because they weren't the problem to begin with. Not loving, liking or respecting my wife makes is damn hard to make and keep commitments because I don't EVER expect to get back what I need or want.
I've been staying for a long time because every time I tried to leave in the past I had a panic attack of abandonment leading to death. Since I felt that I couldn't leave, I tried to make the best of the situation and work for change, even though I saw NO way to ever get what I want. Eventually I changed enough to really address my issues and grow enough to TRULY consider leaving. Hopefully that will happen sometime soon, when I'm ready. I don't love my wife and can't see any healthy to stay. This is and has only ever been a legal marriage. Not emotional, not spiritual, not godly.
I undertand that God hates divorce. Me too! :( However, I do not believe that he ever wanted this "marriage." I believe he can use every bad thing to good ends and I have grown tremendously because of it, but he doesn't cause the bad. A "marriage" where one spouse has never been able to fulfill their role to the other is not a valid marriage. I believe that I can face God on the last day and not be ashamed of this choice.
-
Hi longtire,
Did you know that the Jewish religion allows divorce? If two Jews get divorced (a common occurrence), they have to get a religious divorce decree from some rabbis in addition to the civil divorce. IOW God is okay with Jewish divorces, if not Christian ones.
Anyhoot. I don't know whether or not you need to divorce your wife. She is obviously a b$()# and a shrew, mercenary, immature, a shrill harpy, deeply irritating and frustrating. But maybe there is an arrangement to be made here. You could remain married but live elsewhere. You could live in the same house leading separate lives. I was divorced years ago, and what happened was that I suddenly KNEW I could not spend another day in that marriage. Nothing could have persuaded me to stay in the same apartment for another hour. Maybe that will hit you too. Until then, it doesn't really matter. Just enforce your boundaries and do whatever you want to do. Life is too precious to keep beating on yourself.
bunny
-
Anyhoot. I don't know whether or not you need to divorce your wife. She is obviously a b$()# and a shrew, mercenary, immature, a shrill harpy, deeply irritating and frustrating. But maybe there is an arrangement to be made here. You could remain married but live elsewhere. You could live in the same house leading separate lives. I was divorced years ago, and what happened was that I suddenly KNEW I could not spend another day in that marriage. Nothing could have persuaded me to stay in the same apartment for another hour. Maybe that will hit you too. Until then, it doesn't really matter.
I don't want just a separation, I want a divorce and a clean break so I can go on with my life. I know what I want, its actually doing it without having a panic attack that's been the problem. :oops:
Just enforce your boundaries and do whatever you want to do. Life is too precious to keep beating on yourself.
I agree completely!
-
bunny wrote,
Did you know that the Jewish religion allows divorce? If two Jews get divorced (a common occurrence), they have to get a religious divorce decree from some rabbis in addition to the civil divorce. IOW God is okay with Jewish divorces, if not Christian ones.
The Pharisees asked Jesus if it was OK to get a divorce. He told them Moses had given them permission to divorce for any reason but only because of the hardness of men's hearts. He then told them what God's preferred plan for marriage was. It went over like a lead balloon of course.
Longtire, maybe you should convert to Catholicism and get an annullment. :wink: :roll: No offense to any Catholics out there, just a little joke. :wink:
mudpup
-
The Pharisees asked Jesus if it was OK to get a divorce. He told them Moses had given them permission to divorce for any reason but only because of the hardness of men's hearts. He then told them what God's preferred plan for marriage was. It went over like a lead balloon of course.
Am I going to hell....? :cry:
bunny
-
He said divorce was a sin except under rather limited circumstances, he didn't say they were going to hell because of it.
Thank God it is not my place, nor in my knowledge who is going to hell. Only God knows the heart.
I have always maintained we will be in for a very large surprise by who we meet there and who we don't. :wink:
mudpup
-
Long,
I believe GOD had his hand in my marriage, in finding my husband as well as letting him go.
Why would he find my H just to have us break up?
Day to Day living, things being revealed on GODS timing and the smallest detail worked out to get me where I'm at today, in Dallas with my D.
Having faith to listen to your gut, knowing I trust in God and want to do is will. As Mud, said the divorce from a man of a harden heart may be reason to have left.
But if God knows my H is an N, with a small chance of healing , why would he put me with him ?
All I know is doing fearful things is what you must do. Your faith will get you past the panic, It will be revealed in your mind when the time is right to leave her.
You can't be frozen in fear that things will not work out, jumpping in the water even cold, may be what you need to do. The water will warm up with those that love and care for you.
The time you leave her will be the right time for you, don't worry, or beat yourself up.
I don't understand God's plan for me, but Im sure he has the right one.
I'm confused why he would want divorce for me, but here I am with total trust it's the right thing I have done.
Have trust God speaks to you and you listen with faith.
OR...
-
OR wrote,
I don't understand God's plan for me, but Im sure he has the right one.
I'm confused why he would want divorce for me, but here I am with total trust it's the right thing I have done.
OR, when I feel like this I just go to Romans 8:28 and 29. He will use whatever we go through to make us stronger and help conform us to His image.
God bless you and your daughter. :)
mudpup
-
Thanks for being there for me bunny, mudpup and OR (and everyone else sending good thoughts and prayers my way)! The realistic (good) talk is really kicking the negative talk's butt right now. Yay!!! :mrgreen: I am closer to leaving today than I have ever been in the past. The funny thing is, because of my past experiences and feeling torn and having panic attacks, I expected to feel really torn again at this point. Instead, I feel peaceful and energized.
I belong to a great church now, and haven't heard a single word of condemnation from, or to anyone. I'm confident that they will support me through this, even if they don't agree its the best course. Heck, I'm not happy about getting divorced, but it sure beats the alternative. I'm really pretty new to this, but my understanding is that divorce is a sin, but I get to heaven by having Jesus as my savior. I don't know if it was ever really a true marriage as OR believes or if it was under false pretenses or just never was possible, or if I'm "supposed" to break free. I don't know if any of those things will matter or not in the end. I know I can't find any motivation at all to continue anymore. I certainly don't know what will happen in the future or whether this is the right thing to do, or whether it is a mistake. If it is a mistake, then I'm prepared to accept the consequences and keep living.
Yesterday while spilling my guts to a friend :) I realized that I don't love my wife anymore. I don't mean I hate her or that there's hurt and distance. I mean that she's irrelevant to the rest of my life! The only reason I've stayed so long is that I couldn't figure out how to actually leave before. I wasn't ready and needed the time and the growth to get to this point. I take it as a good sign that I am thinking more about the details of leaving again over the past couple of days. I'm not pushing, I trust that it will all work out when the time is right for me.
I get the image of me as a bat flying blind and letting out these little squeeks ever oncey in a while. Then I get your "echoes" back and feel like I halfway know where I am and where I am going. Thanks again!
-
divorce is a sin
Mudpuppy will get mad at me for this, but, well, (small voice) you don't really HAVE to decide that divorce is a sin. It may say so in the bible (I have no idea if it does and I don't care really) but I don't think there is a direct quote of Jesus ever saying it. I mean, his parents weren't married when they made him :)
My reading of the new testament (and of every religious text) goes something like: Be loving. Do the best you can. Stop worrying about stuff that doesn't matter, including societal stuff like riches and worldly power and worldly rules. If you are without sin, throw stones all over the place, but if you aren't, loosen up. Give people a break, including yourself. Don't break promises lightly, but for heaven's sake, you are only human-- doubts and mistakes are what the whole thing is about.
Thus spake Vunil.
I just think that you are hard enough on yourself, Longtire, without bringing anyone Else into it. I think the big guy is rooting for you, not waiting to condemn you. He sees what this marriage is like, too.
:?
-
Mudpuppy will get mad
I should have said "might" get mad. A little N omnipotence creeping in there, sorry!
-
This might surprise you vunil, but I agree with nearly everything you said, and what I don't agree with has nothing to do with longtire's predicament. Also I only get mad at people with evil motives or who are harming someone who is innocent, so I wouldn't get mad at you, you're too sweet for that. And on top of that, I learned some time ago to not get a pregnant lady riled up under any circumstances. :D
Don't break promises lightly, but for heaven's sake, you are only human-- doubts and mistakes are what the whole thing is about.
That is pretty similar to what I told longtire previously. Sometimes we are faced with Hobson's choice. Two rotten choices, we simply have to pick the less rotten of the two. I don't really even know if it would be a sin for longtire to divorce his wife under these circumstances; many Christians believe the withholding of sex falls under Jesus's reason for divorce or at least Paul's expansion on Jesus's words.
I just pray that longtire is at peace with himself when he makes his final decision. Not at peace with the decision, you can never be completely at peace with this kind of thing, but with himself.
mudpup
-
Mudpuppy will get mad at me for this, but, well, (small voice) you don't really HAVE to decide that divorce is a sin. It may say so in the bible (I have no idea if it does and I don't care really) but I don't think there is a direct quote of Jesus ever saying it. I mean, his parents weren't married when they made him
My reading of the new testament (and of every religious text) goes something like: Be loving. Do the best you can. Stop worrying about stuff that doesn't matter, including societal stuff like riches and worldly power and worldly rules. If you are without sin, throw stones all over the place, but if you aren't, loosen up. Give people a break, including yourself. Don't break promises lightly, but for heaven's sake, you are only human-- doubts and mistakes are what the whole thing is about.
Vunil, yes, I double checked the New Testament. Jesus says its God's will that no man should split up what has been joined. Remarrying afterward is considered adultery. It may be a technical point, but my wife never really left her mother. She kept her relationship with her mother more important than our marriage ever was. Is that grounds for an annulment. :) More to the point, everyone who loves (or at least likes :)) me tells me that its a bad situation and I should leave. Actually, they literally say "Get the hell out, now!" How can I not love myself enough to do that?
I prayed about this again today and got the response "Leave, go forth." Before that its was "Move on." 3 times in a row. I really don't get the feeling that God is telling me I have to stay, or else. So why I am having a hard time with this aspect of leaving? I can even envision reasons that things would be better off getting divorced. I'd be happier. :) Maybe my wife might admit she has problems and start working on them. It might move any of us to the place we need to be in our lives. Sheesh, 6 months ago I never would have believed that the hardest obstacle to getting divorced would be my uncertainty about what God wants. I think I'll go along with Vunil's way of looking at it. Its not a sin because it wasn't ever really a true marriage. Besides, I agree with mudpup about riling up pregnant women. :)
That is pretty similar to what I told longtire previously. Sometimes we are faced with Hobson's choice. Two rotten choices, we simply have to pick the less rotten of the two. I don't really even know if it would be a sin for longtire to divorce his wife under these circumstances; many Christians believe the withholding of sex falls under Jesus's reason for divorce or at least Paul's expansion on Jesus's words.
I just pray that longtire is at peace with himself when he makes his final decision. Not at peace with the decision, you can never be completely at peace with this kind of thing, but with himself.
mudpup
It helps to think of this as a decision between two bad choices. Its funny, but despite being one of us sex-crazed men, its the withholding of sharing and intimacy that hurt me the most. :( (I would still expect sex to fit in there somewhere, though. :twisted:) mudpup, I think you put it perfectly in your last paragraph. I may not really ever like any decision I make, but I will be OK if I'm at peace with myself when I make it. That's my goal, torturous as it seems sometimes, to come to peace with myself.
-
Happy Easter!
It may be a technical point, but my wife never really left her mother. She kept her relationship with her mother more important than our marriage ever was. Is that grounds for an annulment. :)
I don't think it's grounds for anything except getting totally fed up. :lol:
More to the point, everyone who loves (or at least likes :)) me tells me that its a bad situation and I should leave. Actually, they literally say "Get the hell out, now!" How can I not love myself enough to do that?
When people actually tell you what to do, I take it as a sign that they're responding to your presentation. You seem to be asking for permission and approval to leave. People are quite willing to give it to you. For one thing, the marriage is described as painful to the nth degree. For another, you're a really nice man with whom we can easily and pleasurably sympathize. I think you evoke maternal feelings in others. :) But we really don't know all the complexities behind closed doors. There may be some decent moments going on. If it were 100% torture, you probably wouldn't be there. You don't seem that self-destructive.
I don't think the choice is really about what God wants. It's about an addictive relationship. In an addictive relationship, there is a huge amount of ruminating before the person chooses to bite the bullet and go through the withdrawal. They know it lies ahead and are reasonably hesitant (if not terrified) to go there.
bunny
-
Dear Longtire,
I'm not well-versed in the Bible (sorry, no joke intended!) but it seems to me that a loving God would not want you to live the rest of your life in misery, but in happiness.
Sincerely,
Lara.
-
Happy Easter!
Happy Easter, bunny! :D:D:D How many chances in life do you get to say that?!?! :) Happy Easter everyone!
It may be a technical point, but my wife never really left her mother. She kept her relationship with her mother more important than our marriage ever was. Is that grounds for an annulment. :)
I don't think it's grounds for anything except getting totally fed up. :lol:
:lol:
More to the point, everyone who loves (or at least likes :)) me tells me that its a bad situation and I should leave. Actually, they literally say "Get the hell out, now!" How can I not love myself enough to do that?
When people actually tell you what to do, I take it as a sign that they're responding to your presentation. You seem to be asking for permission and approval to leave. People are quite willing to give it to you. For one thing, the marriage is described as painful to the nth degree. For another, you're a really nice man with whom we can easily and pleasurably sympathize. I think you evoke maternal feelings in others. :) But we really don't know all the complexities behind closed doors. There may be some decent moments going on. If it were 100% torture, you probably wouldn't be there. You don't seem that self-destructive.
I think that one of the things that makes it harder for me is that the more I confront her behavior, the more it goes underground. Anymore, its not so much the presence of bad stuff, its the utter lack of any good stuff that is driving me. I have to admit that I reached a point last year where I not only stopped trusting her, I stopped trying to trust her. The "good" stuff that has been keeping me here recently is fear of confronting my own issues which keep me from leaving.
I don't think the choice is really about what God wants. It's about an addictive relationship. In an addictive relationship, there is a huge amount of ruminating before the person chooses to bite the bullet and go through the withdrawal. They know it lies ahead and are reasonably hesitant (if not terrified) to go there.
bunny
Panicked, in my case. I believe that time, intention, and repeated exposure will get me through this resistance.
I'm not well-versed in the Bible (sorry, no joke intended!) but it seems to me that a loving God would not want you to live the rest of your life in misery, but in happiness.
Lara, I figured out that part of my issues around this is wondering "what if" I'm supposed to stay and everything will work out best in the end by some miracle? If that's the case it will not be by anything I do, so if there's a miracle coming then I won't be able to resist it anyway. It will happen "despite" me. So, I'm continuing to do the best I can to take care of myself "in the meantime."
Well, I started reading "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans this morning since it was next on my book pile. She lists 10 traits of a VA relationship and says that if you have experienced 2 or more its likely VA. Well, I had loads of every single one of them. :x:x:x I got so angry and afraid after reading that section, that I jumped up and copied documents for the divorce for 2 hours while my spouse was out of the house. Grrr... She also lists 19 experiences of "crazymaking," and no surprise, I have experienced all of them. If I weren't a man I'd be the posterchild for this. Ms. Evans protrays VA as primarily a womens issue perpetrated by the patriarcy (she actually uses that word) and sees men who are victims of this as a curious anomaly. I could do without that tone, but so far the book is talking about my experience.
-
In an addictive relationship, there is a huge amount of ruminating before the person chooses to bite the bullet and go through the withdrawal. They know it lies ahead and are reasonably hesitant (if not terrified) to go there.
Bunny, this clarified some things for me to such a strong degree that I am going to go on a really long walk right now and think about it. Wow. I always wondered why I stayed in these addictive situations-- I assumed it was a lack of understanding of what was happening. But truth is I stayed long after I knew just what was happening, sometimes after someone cheated on me, even.
I think you have pinpointed exactly what I was doing-- choosing the pain I knew over the scary new pain of going through withdrawal. And withdrawal meant the potential of the primal, original pain (from my upbringing, and from being abused) coming back. Better to be addicted than to really feel.
Don't mean to highjack Longtire's thread; I just wanted to point out how much this insight means to me. (and scares me a little!)
-
In an addictive relationship, there is a huge amount of ruminating before the person chooses to bite the bullet and go through the withdrawal. They know it lies ahead and are reasonably hesitant (if not terrified) to go there.
Bunny, this clarified some things for me to such a strong degree that I am going to go on a really long walk right now and think about it. Wow. I always wondered why I stayed in these addictive situations-- I assumed it was a lack of understanding of what was happening. But truth is I stayed long after I knew just what was happening, sometimes after someone cheated on me, even.
I think you have pinpointed exactly what I was doing-- choosing the pain I knew over the scary new pain of going through withdrawal. And withdrawal meant the potential of the primal, original pain (from my upbringing, and from being abused) coming back. Better to be addicted than to really feel.
Don't mean to highjack Longtire's thread; I just wanted to point out how much this insight means to me. (and scares me a little!)
vunil, the more the merrier on this thread. :D Besides, I do think bunny really nailed this one. No more amount of convincing myself that there are problems is really going to help. I already know that. Deciding what tough choice I'm going to make is really where I'm at. I think I was hoping that if I could build a strong enough case, I wouldn't actually have to make my own decision, it would be obvious. Sort of the difference between deciding and choosing. I've already decided, now I have to choose.
-
That was me above. Darn timeout on logins.
Well, my wife asked me to talk this afternoon and I had a strong reaction to it. I must be growing, because it doesn't take longat all to figure out what knocks me off balance and how to get back on balance again. :)
She said that several weeks ago when I had invited her to talk with me, she had a strong reaction to the invitation. She felt dread, heavy, burdened, etc. expecting that this meant only talking about heavy subjects (relationship issues). She said what she wants is to just have a lot more fun with me, light talk and learn how to be happy with me again before being ready to tackle the tough relationship issues again. (Since she quit joint therapy, I have been civil with her and answer her questions, and talk out "roomate" and co-parenting issues. I have not volunteered any personal information except for any plans that effect her or my daughter.)
I responded that I still feel unsafe talking with her, and that I don't know how feel safe enough to just be "happy" with her without working out some of our relationship issues first. We agreed to just let that be for a while and think about it. Despite my growing boundary skills, I don't feel ready to jump into the deep end deliberately yet. So...
<<<
Things seem to be going better. My wife actually asked me to talk today. Maybe if I make her happy enough (submerge my feelings), she might be willing to work on her problems one day.
>>>
Of course she came to me, I haven't been talking with her except for procedural issues. I haven't been volunteering personal information. I have been setting and enforcing my boundaries with her. It seems likely that she has noticed that I'm not chasing her anymore. (Is she hoovering? Being nice when I back off, only to return to her old habits when I return to mine?) Of course things seem better right now, I'm not sharing my true thoughts and feelings with her. "We" aren't working out any issues. "We" aren't making any progress.
Give me what I want first, then I'll give you what you want. How many times did I fall for that eternally unkept promise in the past? If the pattern holds, I will never be able to make her happy "enough" to start giving me anything in return. I'm not going there with anyone ever again. I don't feel comfortable doing that for her right now, so I hold my boundary and say "no."
In a way, I think we both would like the same thing, to feel safe with each other. Her way is to ignore the issues until she feels safe enough and promise to then work on them when and if that happens. That's an awfully conditional agreement. My way is to address the issues and have that be one part of the relationship, along with the fun stuff. I don't see anyway out of this impasse except for one person giving up their position. I'm not the person to just give in any longer.
It makes sense that she associates me with fear and heaviness. I wouldn't take no for an answer, kept bringing up our unresolved issues, kept challenging her defenses and denial, and was angry and resentful towards her for many years. I feel unsafe, and I am no longer willing to risk my safety around her to try to resolve things. I no longer feel caring or compassion towards her and am utterly unmotivated to take personal risks for an undemonstrated reward. I still feel a little guilty about that. Like I wasn't strong enough to keep loving her, no matter what. The romantic ideal. I keep reminding myself that I am only human and that I reached my limits, that's all. It doesn't mean I'm a "wrong" or uncaring person.
So why do I still get a thrill of delight to find out that she's trying to find a way to work things out with me? Or is she? That's my interpretation. She didn't actually make any comittment to wokring anything out. She wanted to get what she wants first, then on that mythical day she will start to work on the relationship. Typical co-dependent stuff, I suppose. I have to keep reminding myself that her idea of work things out means she gets what she wants, first adn then give to me only if she feels like it. My idea means that we actually work things out in a mutually beneficial way. I haven't heard her voice any support for that type of approach.
She also said that she was fine with my not feeling right about getting money for our anniversary. She wanted to know if I felt the same about Christmas, since we hadn't done anything for each other then either. I told her that no, this was about our anniversary. She asked if I would be willing to consider giving each other belated money for Christmas. (I wonder if this was truly the main reason she talked with me today?) I told her that I would think about it, but wanted to check out our financial situation first to make sure that is not going to be a problem.
I don't get any sense of comittment, willingness to change, or caring from her. At this point, I am in the same state. I no longer care, I'm not willing to commit sight unseen, and I just don't care for her any longer. I'm tired of looking to her to change those things and being disappointed. Those are my things, and I accept that that is how I feel today. I'm no longer going to try to change the way I feel.
-
She said what she wants is to just have a lot more fun with me, light talk and learn how to be happy with me again before being ready to tackle the tough relationship issues again.
I would not take this at face value. She actually can't talk about heavy relationship issues. Nor does she want "light talk." She wants to be in control, probably by scolding, nagging, and criticizing. That's how she feels safe.
I responded that I still feel unsafe talking with her, and that I don't know how feel safe enough to just be "happy" with her without working out some of our relationship issues first. We agreed to just let that be for a while and think about it. Despite my growing boundary skills, I don't feel ready to jump into the deep end deliberately yet. So...
This was an excellent answer.
Give me what I want first, then I'll give you what you want. How many times did I fall for that eternally unkept promise in the past? If the pattern holds, I will never be able to make her happy "enough" to start giving me anything in return. I'm not going there with anyone ever again. I don't feel comfortable doing that for her right now, so I hold my boundary and say "no."
Good idea. The quid pro quo thing doesn't work and it's over. She'll have to live without it.
In a way, I think we both would like the same thing, to feel safe with each other.
Bingo.
Her way is to ignore the issues until she feels safe enough and promise to then work on them when and if that happens.
She never feels safe enough. She just decides at some point to deal with you and get it over with as fast as possible.
My way is to address the issues and have that be one part of the relationship, along with the fun stuff. I don't see anyway out of this impasse except for one person giving up their position. I'm not the person to just give in any longer.
I agree. She has to give up her position since it was always unworkable and unrealistic. Of course, she may never agree to give up her position.
So why do I still get a thrill of delight to find out that she's trying to find a way to work things out with me?
Because she's your wife and you love her? :roll:
She also said that she was fine with my not feeling right about getting money for our anniversary. She wanted to know if I felt the same about Christmas, since we hadn't done anything for each other then either. I told her that no, this was about our anniversary. She asked if I would be willing to consider giving each other belated money for Christmas. (I wonder if this was truly the main reason she talked with me today?) I told her that I would think about it, but wanted to check out our financial situation first to make sure that is not going to be a problem.
Belated Christmas money???! Thank goodness you stalled her. The answer is the same as the anniversary money: NYET.
longtire, she is a little girl.
bunny
-
Wow, busy day for me. :) Thanks for the validation bunny. I'm grateful that you share your ability to cut right to the chase with me here. :) I hope to be as direct and insightful as you one day.
Synchronicity? Unconscious bringing things up? This afternoon I found a journal from 10 years ago. Guess what, it talks about exactly the same stuff I am still struggling with. That was in the midst of the worst part of my depression. I actually wrote about being 1/4" from suicude before I decided I didn't want to die alone, unknown by anyone. :cry: The issues may be the same, but I am not, praise God!
It is clear that despite massive growth on my part (that's not a brag, I was really screwed up), none of the relationship issues with my wife are ANY different today than they were then. I've already made the decision. Tonigh, I can say:
I choose to divorce my wife, be happy, and have a good life.
P.S. From the things I recorded, it seems clear to me that my Therapist bought my wife's load of bullshit from his insensitive comments. I plan to take the journal to my session tomorrow and find out what the truth is. Thank you all for being my support through this. I couldn't have gotten this far without your example and your feedback. ((((ALL))))
-
Hi Longtire:
I want to say congratulations on making this decision but that just doesn't sound right. :? :(
I'm glad you are feeling strong and able to make a decision! That's really the good news, isn't it?
Do you feel a bit of weight off of your shoulders now?
I hope with all of my heart that you will be and that life will be good for you from now on!
Way ta go Longtire!!
GFN
-
I really should stop typing with my toes! :oops: :oops:
I hope with all of my heart that you will be
should be:
I hope with all of my heart that you will be happy.....
GFN
-
Well done Longtire.
Hold on to your daughter with one hand, your cat with the other, and make sure you keep those two new itchy bumps on your shoulderblades well oiled and massaged.
Your wings are growing.
"I used to think that I could not go on
And life was nothing but an awful song
But now I know the meaning of true love
I'm leaning on the everlasting arms
If I can see it, then I can do it
If I just believe it, there's nothing to it...
I believe I can fly
I believe I can touch the sky
I think about it every night and day
Spread my wings and fly away
I believe I can soar
I see me running through that open door
I believe I can fly
I believe I can fly
I believe I can fly!
See I was on the verge of breaking down
Sometimes silence can seem so loud
There are miracles in life I must achieve
But first I know it starts inside of me, oh
If I can see it, then I can do it
If I just believe it, there's nothing to it
I believe I can fly
I believe I can touch the sky
I think about it every night and day
Spread my wings and fly away
I believe I can soar
I see me running through that open door
I believe I can fly
I believe I can fly
I believe I can fly!"
[I Believe I Can Fly -- R. Kelly]
-
Hi Longtire,
My heart goes out to you. I am always reluctant to give advice about divorce. I am grateful that my husband and I hung in there when we were going through some tough times - we've been married 16 years.
During out toughest year I talked with my Pastor quite a bit. My Pastor is a wonderful man, leader and fellow recovery member. I felt assured that if and when it was time for me to leave I would know and my Pastor & counselor would be in agreement with me.
Fortunately, I learned how to detatch and my husband hit his emotional bottom and reached out for help. (Dealing with the pain of abandonement during those years felt like my heart was being scalded in hot oil.) I was so afraid that my husband was going to turn out like my Mom - an N with no hope. However, his behavior during those years is what broke through my denial and forced me to start seeking healing from my childhood. Because of my background his behavior caused a 10 on my pain richter scale. I had to come to terms with the reality that I was blaming him for the pain my N Mother caused decades ago.
So, I'll pray for you and trust that God is taking good care of you. You are a very warm man. (Remember, I thought you were a woman. :lol: )
Chutzbagirl
-
Hi Longtire,
I'm kinda playing catch up with reading your thread, so I'm a little behind with my interjections :shock: After reading your thread, I was moved on your enduring love for your wife during all those years of heartaches and disappointments from her. Loving someone under those circumstances, I believe takes character, integrity, strength and resilience. And it sounds to me like you have all those qualities and then some :wink:
I'm sure it's a very tough and monumental decision for you in choosing a divorce. I have never haven been married before, so I can't really say what I would do if I was in your situation. But, I think I would make the same decision as you. It seems like your wife will never change until she sees that she is doing something wrong and see a need to change, starting with herself. Doesn't sound like she sees that or wants that. :( It's true that noone can change anyone else but themselves.
-
Thank you all for the support. You know, I don't get tired of saying that. :)
I hope with all of my heart that you will be happy and that life will be good for you from now on!
Life is good, even when I'm not happy! That is one of the ways I can see that I've grown through all this.
Well done Longtire.
Hold on to your daughter with one hand, your cat with the other, and make sure you keep those two new itchy bumps on your shoulderblades well oiled and massaged.
Your wings are growing.
Thanks, though it feels more like flopping around on the ground than flying to me right now. :)
My heart goes out to you. I am always reluctant to give advice about divorce. I am grateful that my husband and I hung in there when we were going through some tough times - we've been married 16 years.
During out toughest year I talked with my Pastor quite a bit. My Pastor is a wonderful man, leader and fellow recovery member. I felt assured that if and when it was time for me to leave I would know and my Pastor & counselor would be in agreement with me.
I've hung in there a long time with unrealistic expectations. Several things came together recently that let me know it is time. I don't feel any love for her and don't want to keep "trying" at something that has never worked. I don't get my wants or needs met here, stability and avoiding adandonment are not enough. She does get some needs met financially and stability-wise, so I don't see her being very motivated. Our relationship is stuck exactly where it was 10 years ago. I believe in miracles, but I'm not planning my life around them anymore.
Fortunately, I learned how to detatch and my husband hit his emotional bottom and reached out for help. (Dealing with the pain of abandonement during those years felt like my heart was being scalded in hot oil.) I was so afraid that my husband was going to turn out like my Mom - an N with no hope. However, his behavior during those years is what broke through my denial and forced me to start seeking healing from my childhood. Because of my background his behavior caused a 10 on my pain richter scale. I had to come to terms with the reality that I was blaming him for the pain my N Mother caused decades ago.
I know that I'm not done with my childhood issues, but I've made a lot of progress because of this relationship. It took me a while to grow to the point where I can choose what is best course for me and not give in to fear. Still working on this one. :)
So, I'll pray for you and trust that God is taking good care of you. You are a very warm man. (Remember, I thought you were a woman. :lol: )
Thanks.... I think. :shock: :)
I've been feeling fear off and on since I chose. I'm just riding the waves, noticing it when it comes up high, acknowledging it, and reminding myself why I made the choice I did. As yucky as it feels at times, I would never trade having my feelings just so... present to go back to being numb ever again. I don't think I'm having a pity party, but I feel afraid that I am. I look forward to the day when my feelings can come up like this and I don't feel like it is a struggle just to hold on.
My therapist told me today that the reason he has not been supporting the things I've been saying is that he does not believe what my wife does qualifies as verbal abuse, emotional abuse or psychological abuse. According to him, the person doing the abuse must be doing it intentionally and must be trying to cause the feelings or doubts by swearing or name-calling. He says that the things she does are just annoying and disappointing, but not abuse. I don't get this. What abusive person would ever admit that they were doing it intentionally?
He asked if I needed him to agree with me that it was abuse and I said no (because her bahavior qualifies as unhelpful, and unnecessary in my book). I did ask if he thought he could still help me figure out how to face the rest of my childhood issues so I don't choose this kind of relationship again. He responded by asking me if I thought I needed to find another therapist who would agree with me. I said no, but now I'm wondering. It would be nice to stop arguing over whether this behavior is abuse or not, or normal or not and just work on my remaining childhood issues!
-
longtire,
According to him, the person doing the abuse must be doing it intentionally and must be trying to cause the feelings or doubts by swearing or name-calling. He says that the things she does are just annoying and disappointing, but not abuse. I don't get this. What abusive person would ever admit that they were doing it intentionally?
What kind of a chunkhead is this guy? Has he ever heard of subtlety or cleverness or shrewdness. Some of the worst abusers in my experience are the subtlest. You can't even fight back because you're not even certain it is abuse half the time, until you look back on it.
Sheesh, tell him to go put in 15 or 20 years with her then come back and tell you whether he was just 'annoyed'.
:x :?
mud
-
What kind of a chunkhead is this guy? Has he ever heard of subtlety or cleverness or shrewdness. Some of the worst abusers in my experience are the subtlest. You can't even fight back because you're not even certain it is abuse half the time, until you look back on it.
Sheesh, tell him to go put in 15 or 20 years with her then come back and tell you whether he was just 'annoyed'.
:x :?
mud
Yes, I'm seriously thinking about finding someone else. I would like to find a therapist who can give me some empathy and validation WHILE helping guide and nudge me forward. Sheesh, its not like I lack motivation or some awareness in this area. I don't care if her behavior qualifies as abuse, controlling behavior, or any other term. I want help in figuring out why I chose it, why I kept putting up with it for so long, and why I'm NOT going to do that in the future. :D
As for my feelings, I talked with my daughter for a while, we petted the cat :), we laughed, we hugged. :D Even though I know my choice will effect her, I know that things will work out alright. Every time I start feeling low like in the last post, I feel better soon afterwards. I wonder how many times I will need to experience that before I remember WHILE I feel low that the good things are so close?
-
My 2 cents longtire...
Wow, your therapist is terribly invalidating.
So's your old lady.
However, separating from your wife and changing your therapist at the same time could be totally overwhelming.
On the other hand (jeez, I sound like longtire now! :lol: :lol: ) if he doesn't see your wife's behavior as abusive, is he going to be able to recognize abuse in your parents' behavior either?
You know where your t is coming from now. You're in a position to practice trying to get through to him from a position of strength (because you've got us in your pocket! yea team!).
And you're in a position to be able to look, if it seems sensible, for a therapist who specializes in abuse issues, and maybe see both therapists for a while, then pick the one who hears you and does you the most good.
It's late and I'm tired, so I hope this makes sense. God bless you, longtire. I believe you can fly!
Storm
-
My therapist told me today that the reason he has not been supporting the things I've been saying is that he does not believe what my wife does qualifies as verbal abuse, emotional abuse or psychological abuse. According to him, the person doing the abuse must be doing it intentionally and must be trying to cause the feelings or doubts by swearing or name-calling. He says that the things she does are just annoying and disappointing, but not abuse. I don't get this. What abusive person would ever admit that they were doing it intentionally?
*mind boggling*
If my therapist said any of this to me, it would be our last session. I need a therapist who validates my experience, not one who invalidates it. This guy has no idea what he's doing.
bunny
-
It's like he's set himself up as the opposing counsel in the divorce court and is cross examining you. Maybe he wishes he were a divorce lawyer..
bunny
-
Hi Longtire,
I'm reading the "Drama of the Gifted Child" by Alice Miller. (Very technical book.) The author claims that unless a therapist has mourned the loss of him/herself the therapist is unable to help clients recover and will unconsciously manipulate. A guess in the dark - perhaps your therapist is unable to look at his own unacceptable behavior? In my humble opinion, he's got some of his own issues clouding his perspective.
Hang in there. I pray you continue to receive wisdom, strength and grace.
Chutzbagirl (Yes, the whole gender mix up was a compliment. :) )
-
Longtire, maybe he's very clever and he's wondering if you can 'divorce' him right now. I wonder if his comment about another therapist was designed to get you to act immediately and say 'yes, I'm off, I won't be back!'
About using the word 'abuse'. Maybe he wants you to disagree strongly with him.
I would if I said that kind of nonsense. I'd be 'baiting' you on purpose.
Say what you think longtire. Maybe he wants you to do that. No more going away and mulling over someone else's words - just state your opinion and see what happens.
Maybe he's behaving a little like your wife on purpose? You could ask him about this possibility. Yes! You could.
On the other hand, he could be a complete idiot as indicated by everyone above (and I'm tempted to agree with everyone). I don't know. Only you can decide.
What will you do Longtire? Will you talk this through with him?
best, Portia
-
My therapist told me today that the reason he has not been supporting the things I've been saying is that he does not believe what my wife does qualifies as verbal abuse, emotional abuse or psychological abuse. According to him, the person doing the abuse must be doing it intentionally and must be trying to cause the feelings or doubts by swearing or name-calling. He says that the things she does are just annoying and disappointing, but not abuse. I don't get this. What abusive person would ever admit that they were doing it intentionally?
What did you say to him? Did you tell him you didn’t understand? It’s okay to get responses from us here to his words, but we don’t know what your reaction was. And this is therapy, so it’s not exactly like a normal interaction. Why is he saying these things to you? (That’s a question for you and him, I don’t want the answer.)
He asked if I needed him to agree with me that it was abuse and I said no (because her bahavior qualifies as unhelpful, and unnecessary in my book).
Do you think it is abuse? The important thing is not what the correct definition is, but what you think, what’s your opinion Longtire? Because after all, you are there with her, nobody else is. Only your opinion matters on this. Are you changing your opinion because of what he's said...?
I did ask if he thought he could still help me figure out how to face the rest of my childhood issues so I don't choose this kind of relationship again. He responded by asking me if I thought I needed to find another therapist who would agree with me.
The more I look at this description, the more I think he knows what he’s doing. Do you see that Longtire?
I said no, but now I'm wondering. It would be nice to stop arguing over whether this behavior is abuse or not, or normal or not and just work on my remaining childhood issues!
Are you arguing about it with him? (Did you argue, disagree?) If so, why argue – you were there with your wife, he wasn’t. Your opinion is what matters, his opinion doesn’t matter. Is it possible that you are already working on your childhood issues with him?
-
Longtire,
This is just my perspective on this, take it or leave it. (I don't have my spell checker set up yet so bear with me please.) It seems to me that you feel, believe that your wife's main interest in the marriage is financial. So you feel used (abused) by her as being nothing more than a money bag to her. If this is correct that this is how you feel, have you explained this to your therapist?
I have a lot of thoughts on your situation so I'm just going to express them. You both were young and damaged when you were married, and this marriage was precipitated by a pregnancy. As can often be the case in such a situation, one person is avoidant of intimacy and the other person is desperately seeking intimacy.
I also think intimacy is something one must first experience with oneself and God and only then are they ready to experience it with another. Also another person is not capable of totally fulfilling our needs of intimacy and because of that I think that one's primary source of intimacy has to be between oneself and God. I think this is what you need to understand in order to avoid getting in this situation again. I would also be cautious with looking to your parents for "support" at this time. They did not adequately support you when you were younger and I don't think their support would be actually helpful and possibly a detrament from you actually dealing with the childhood issues that brought you into this situation in the first place.
I believe your wife has been successful in fulfilling her unhealthy needs of avoidance of intimacy and you have been a participant of this for a long time. I'm going to talk about this a little more at the end of the post.
I agree with your therapist that the discussion you had with your wife concerning the budget was not an example of poor communication but instead a normal healthy conversation. I did not find your wive's comment of "Was the car work an emergancy?" to be totally out of place. Yes it was a bit of a dig, but even normal people do these things and so I don't find that this was totally out of the scale of "normalcy". I also think your comments that she "interupted" you with the comment were a bit out of place. A husband and wife who are DISCUSSING things don't interupt but contribute to the conversation and if you view her contributions as "interuptions" than I think this is a problem. If you don't want her to be a "little girl", be careful not to treat her as one. At the same time I understand your frustration with her lack of concern in the past with sound financial planning.
I think the idea of a belated Christmas gift of money for the two of you, after suggesting an aniversary gift of money is not within the scope of "normal" considering the situation of your marriage. It makes me think she wants money right now for something and I would be intent on finding out exactly what is going on there concerning that. At the same time I think I would make it clear to her that you feel that she is only interested in the financial aspects of the marriage if this is how you truly feel and let her know that such suggestions on her part tend to make you feel this way. I would definitely bring this up as an example to your therapist.
Back to your wife's avoidance of intimacy. I'm not really sure you are at the point of being ready to give up this relationship. Your teeter tottering gives me this indication. Are you sure you don't want to give it one more all or nothing chance? If you don't that's fine. If you do I think the both of you need to get serious. She needs to stop leaving the house and the two of you need to start doing things together.
I have to say I'm a bit concerned with the dynamics of what is going on in your household now. You and your daughter going out to dinner, watching TV together, etc, while your wife is out who knows where, doing who knows what. Seems to me that you and your daughter are doing husband/wife things while your wife is out doing teenage girl things. I think this needs to stop for everyones sake, including and especially your daughter's sake. This is not normal. How does your wife and daughter get along? Do they go out alone together ever? If your wife and daughter also spend a lot of time alone together I retract all that I have said here concerning this and what I am about to say. If your wife and your daughter don't spend much time together and you or your wife aren't willing to put a serious effort into your marriage (by her stop going out alone and the two of you, you and your wife doing things together AND the three of you as a family doing things together) then I strongly suggest you and your wife AT LEAST seperate until you decide what to do so as this what appears to be an unhealty dynamic with your daughter does not continue.
I hope this doesn't come off as too critical and again this is just my perspective and I'm not in the situation so I can be way off on things.
LM
-
Hi, Longtire!
Is your therapist someone you can get into a scrappy conversation with? Because I agree with Portia that it's *possible* he is being purposefully obnoxious/critical to get you guys to a deeper level of communication. It would be super-easy to tell-- if you call him on it (ask him about it, express your feelings about it, whatever) and he has no idea what you are talking about and just repeats something to the effect of he has judged the situation to be xyz amen, then you know. If he is very calm as you talk and then really has a conversation with you about how you are feeling, then that may be groovy.
The comment about finding someone else to agree with you could be two things. He could be a guy who has to pronounce the utter Truth at all times, in which case he shouldn't be a therapist and you should run away. Or, he could be saying "let's move to a new kind of conversation where you argue with me and let me see what's brewing in that thoughtful head of yours." Maybe he can tell there's stuff happening in your growth and your thoughts that he isn't privy to and he wants in. That could be great of him.
So who knows. You might have more support than you think :)
-
Hi Longtire and all:
Yes, I'm seriously thinking about finding someone else. I would like to find a therapist who can give me some empathy and validation WHILE helping guide and nudge me forward. Sheesh, its not like I lack motivation or some awareness in this area. I don't care if her behavior qualifies as abuse, controlling behavior, or any other term. I want help in figuring out why I chose it, why I kept putting up with it for so long, and why I'm NOT going to do that in the future.
I think you are saying that you don't feel empathy from your therapist, and that your experiences/feelings have not been validated by him, and that he is not encouraging you to move forward??
This is poor therapizing, if you ask me.
Your therapist stated his opinion of your wife's behaviour. He needs to keep his opinions to himself. You are not there to discuss his opinions or his feelings. He needs his own therapist for that.
You feeeeeel abused and therefore your feelings are valid, whether he agrees, has opinions that agree, or not. Imo, he fails the therapist test right there. He sucks.
Also, if this "therapist" doesn't recognize the abusive behaviour of your wife, he may not realize it when you start describing your childhood. He may not validate or empathize with your feeling abused and you may end up feeling discouraged further. You don't need that.
GFN
-
vunil, portia, longtire,
A therapist who is worth anything doesn't play childish baiting games with a patient. If he is arguing to "get a rise" out of longtire he has serious deficiencies as a therapist. He can make an interpretation comparing the marriage and the therapy. That's what a good therapist would do. I don't believe this therapist is trying to bait him on purpose. But he is acting out and he's the therapist! I think this person is inadequate in theory and training. Somehow he doesn't have what it takes. So he's screwing up.
bunny
-
bunny
I wasn’t saying the therapist is playing a game to get a rise. Sometimes it is the therapist’s job to challenge a client’s behaviour and thinking. Therapy is about changing and outgrowing your therapist. If that can be achieved by having challenging conversations, then that is valid therapy.
Only Longtire and his therapist know the answer here and it’s up to Longtire to talk to his therapist about these particular issues and decide for himself whether the therapist is saying these things because he’s knows what he’s doing, or because he’s a dork.
Longtire
I don’t know which is the case and I don’t advise you either way. This is up to you. I hope I’ve given you an alternative interpretation. portia
-
I wasn’t saying the therapist is playing a game to get a rise. Sometimes it is the therapist’s job to challenge a client’s behaviour and thinking. Therapy is about changing and outgrowing your therapist. If that can be achieved by having challenging conversations, then that is valid therapy.
The way it was described wasn't a challenging conversation (imo). It was the therapist giving his definition of abuse and telling longtire he didn't see abuse according to that definition. For all I know, longtire asked him what his definition of abuse is. I see it as an impasse in the therapy. And yes it is up to longtire what to do about it.
bunny
-
Therapy is about changing and outgrowing your therapist. If that can be achieved by having challenging conversations, then that is valid therapy.
Here are my thoughts on this.
If there is a patient who needs to outgrow a therapist than that is what the therapy will be about.
If there is a patient who needs their reality validated, therapy won't be about outgrowing the therapist. It will be about how to validate reality.
If there is a patient who works well being challenged and confronted, the therapy will probably include that.
If there is a patient who desperately needs someone to understand him/her, challenging and confronting will further traumatize them.
Therapy has different purposes, outcomes, goals, etc.
bunny
-
um, I didn't say I thought the therapist was playing a game!
-
If a therapist is being purposely obnoxious and critical to make some point or challenge a patient, then he would be playing a game. (imo)
bunny
-
My apologies if I put words into anyone's mouth. I didn't mean to do that. I think an old memory of mine came up. I was literally horrified by the thought of a therapist manipulating a session by purposely acting a certain way...now I remember when I saw my "first therapist" as an adult, I was certain that she, and indeed all therapists, tried to get the patient to react by purposely goading or provoking them. So you may have brought up old memories where I deeply feared the therapist and their manipulations. I hadn't realized until a few minutes ago.
Again, I'm sorry.
bunny
-
Yuck-- I see your point. It would definitely make the whole relationship fall apart.
-
Hi Bunny
I had to 'fire' two different therapists because they took sides, and clearly weren't on mine.
One of them was totally conned by a manipulative alcoholic I was involved with (who was sober when I met him, but not in recovery, and resumed drinking once he thought he'd 'caught' me). When my immediately-afterwards-ex finally showed up at a joint session late, drunk, and abusive, and heaped invective on me over nothing, then stormed out, I remember looking at the t and saying, "So... do you believe me about him NOW?" The t had the decency to apologize, but it was too late. He'd believed my ex and disbelieved me for no other reason, as far as I could tell, than that my ex was male and a smooth talker, and I was female and not hiding my emotions.
The other one was bound and determined to sell me on the idea that I was genetically defective and doomed to a life on anti-depressants because losing my entire family to death and estrangement, losing several beloved animals, and becoming (temporarily) homeless due to stalking - all within the period from 1997 to 2002 - finally brought me to my knees with a clinical depression in late '02. This one applied a stigma with both hands as hard as she could press, and was very angry at me for not accepting it (!). The interesting thing here was that the less depressed I became, the more hostile the therapist became. I've never seen such a negative countertransference in my life, and I hope I never do again.
Challenging these two ts was definitely not as constructive as spending the time and $ with ts who could hear me, and were committed to my welfare, would have been.
This is a long winded way of saying you're not alone - my previous experiences affected my response to Longtire too. I erred on the side of wishywashyness, because of them.
Whew!
(Longtire, I decided to go ahead and post this stuff because, who knows, it could help you somehow, to read about these experiences.)
-
Wow, something really lit a fire under everyone on this one! Me included! I didn't have much of a chance to read or post today and just got caught up in my reading. I think that I'm going to try to respond in broad strokes, rather than details. Keep posting!
I certainly don't feel supported or validated by my therapist. I don't hear things from him that I would even remotely consider validating. If he is playing games rather than talking openly with me, then I'm going to find someone else. I don't care whether it is intentional or not anymore. I deserve better.
I left out the kicker from yesterday. I was getting tired of having him tell me I was not correct in various ways without offering any suggestions or reframing, interpretation, explanation, or otherwise being helpful. So, I told him I believe that the therapy is not being very helpful and asked him what he thought was going on in the session. He said, "You don't want to listen to what I think!" I told him that I was trying to understand and did want to hear what he thought. That's when he told me that he wasn't being supportive because he didn't believe that my wife's behavior qualifies as abuse. (At least then I could understand why he keeps telling me "No, I think you're wrong" without offering any other feedback. Not , that I agree with him.)
It took me until this afternoon, but my boundaries from his "You" statement now say back the hell off!. Tell me what you think and I'll honestly tell you whether I wanted to hear it, I agree with it, or I have any other reactions, feelings, or thoughts about it. Don't define me because you can't handle your frustration or whatever. You ought to know better as a therapist. Even I am learning this!
As bunny surmised, I then asked him what his definition of abuse is. So he told me. At least he was talking about what he believed instead of just cutting down what I had to say with no explanations. I may not understand or say things right the first time, but here I am voluntarily paying for therapy! I think that says something about my level of commitment. I deserve better treatment. At the end of the session, he did apologize for saying "Stop" (in one form or another) to interrupt me over the years and said the he would not do that with me any longer since it "doesn't seem to be helpful" for me.
I've written about 8 pages worth of my experience and keep deleting it because it all points in the same direction and I really don't feel the need to further justify or explain having a problem with this behavior from my T. I will go to the next session per the patient contract and discuss this with him. This agreement is intended to catch a patient who is running away from the pain brought up in therapy. I don't think this is the case (I've had a LOT worse pain), but I'm willing to listen to reasonable discussion about it. Honestly, I would just like to find someone to help validate me (core unmet need?) while giving gentle guidance when I stray. More "Have you considered this?" kind of thing than "Stop" or "I think you're wrong."
Stormchild, you mentioned that I can take this on because I've got all of you here cheering me on. I realize that and am grateful every day to have everyone here to talk to and get support from.
Portia, I do think it is abuse. It certainly is controlling, rather than caring behavior. His opinion does not change mine one bit. I believe that he doesn't understand the situation, because he keeps cutting me off telling me that my judgement is wrong, he disagrees, he has a different definition, etc. He hasn't even heard 99.999% of all the things that have gone on, because he keeps trying to disprove each example as I bring it up. You asked whether we are working my childhood issues with his behavior this way. Maybe, but if so he underestimated me. I've certainly outgrown his behavior.
I agree with bunny that this is an impasse in the therapy. Keep in mind, this same sort of thing happened previously when I tried to discuss issues that came up in relation to my wife. I was depressed then, so I gave up even mentioning anything about it. I stuck around for the things he was able to help me with and then left therapy to continue on my own for a while. This was the reason I was hesitant to go back and see him again, remembering how distracted and unhelpful he got the last time I brought this stuff up. If its a technique, its too deep for me, and I am pretty deep. If not, then he just can't help me with this and I need to find someone else. At least I'll know.
Growing up I experienced a severe lack of validation, feedback, emotional interaction, etc. I think I need to get over that to grow out of co-dependency and maybe even some relationship addiction. I don't know how to get over that right now. I am still operating at a lifetime deficit for touch and emotional conneciton. This group helps a lot for the latter. :) I can handle the confrontation in therapy when there is a point. Simply saying "Stop" or "I think you're wrong" doesn't help. I believe that having a realistically validating environment to do this work in would help me.
Enough for now...
-
LM, I decided to reply separately to your post since it raises some good points that didn't really fit in my previous reply.
This is just my perspective on this, take it or leave it. (I don't have my spell checker set up yet so bear with me please.) It seems to me that you feel, believe that your wife's main interest in the marriage is financial. So you feel used (abused) by her as being nothing more than a money bag to her. If this is correct that this is how you feel, have you explained this to your therapist?
I believe that my wife is operating from an immature point of view and looks for someone to take care of her. (I recognize this in myself as well.) Money is one aspect of that. I also believe that she spends to feel more in control and powerful.
I have a lot of thoughts on your situation so I'm just going to express them. You both were young and damaged when you were married, and this marriage was precipitated by a pregnancy. As can often be the case in such a situation, one person is avoidant of intimacy and the other person is desperately seeking intimacy.
Yes, not having any couple time at first when getting married may have been the death blow to an already at-risk relationship. My wife went straight from momma's little girl pampered at home to expectant mother and wife. :shock:
I also think intimacy is something one must first experience with oneself and God and only then are they ready to experience it with another. Also another person is not capable of totally fulfilling our needs of intimacy and because of that I think that one's primary source of intimacy has to be between oneself and God. I think this is what you need to understand in order to avoid getting in this situation again. I would also be cautious with looking to your parents for "support" at this time. They did not adequately support you when you were younger and I don't think their support would be actually helpful and possibly a detrament from you actually dealing with the childhood issues that brought you into this situation in the first place.
I think that feeling connected to God "no matter what" is what is enabling me to grow after many years of stagnation and numbness. I agree that this is an irreplaceable element in not repeating mistakes of my past. I'm sure there is more I need to know and grow than just that.
When I say that my parents support me, I mean that they listen to me (though they sometimes seem uncomfortable) and tell me that I will always be their son and will always help in any way if I need it. I do not get the same kind of deep understanding and support and love that I get from people here. :) I believe they are doing their absolute best and have seen them grow over time. Its enough.
I believe your wife has been successful in fulfilling her unhealthy needs of avoidance of intimacy and you have been a participant of this for a long time. I'm going to talk about this a little more at the end of the post.
Given her past, it makes sense that she might panic at the prospect of intimacy, too close to enmeshment. Obviously, my fear of abandonment and childish "not being able to take care of myself" has caused panic that kept me from leaving.
I agree with your therapist that the discussion you had with your wife concerning the budget was not an example of poor communication but instead a normal healthy conversation. I did not find your wive's comment of "Was the car work an emergancy?" to be totally out of place. Yes it was a bit of a dig, but even normal people do these things and so I don't find that this was totally out of the scale of "normalcy". I also think your comments that she "interupted" you with the comment were a bit out of place. A husband and wife who are DISCUSSING things don't interupt but contribute to the conversation and if you view her contributions as "interuptions" than I think this is a problem. If you don't want her to be a "little girl", be careful not to treat her as one. At the same time I understand your frustration with her lack of concern in the past with sound financial planning.
If this were an isolated incident, I would agree with you to some extent. Maybe not great communication, but not terrible either. When my wife is not blocking comminucation, she primarily communicates with me through digs. She deflects discussions about her issues by trying to prove that my issues are worse, so therefore she was fully justified in whatever she did, no matter what it was (Rather than discussing what happened and being curious about it and making adjustments to be happier). I believe her reason for bringing up this topic in the first place was because she believes that I was wrong and wanted to "prove" it. Also, I have many years of experience with her interrupting, snorting while I talk, rolling her eyes at me when I talk, telling me "That didn't happen" so she can justify refusing to discuss things, etc. She seems to have a strong need to deny or invalidate so that she does not need to be aware of her feelings and behavior. The original point I was trying to make with that anecdote was that regardless of my feelings, I was able to NOT react this time and handled that situation way better that I would have in the past.
In my ideal relationship, we would each listen respectfully to the other, without trying to find ways to deny the other's experience. No interrupting, no denying, no disrespect, no trying to find ammo to use against the other, etc. (Yes, both of us, including me.) I believe that many times she denys my experience because she is too afraid to even be aware of, let alone share her own. (No matter how willing I am, I can't hear her if she chooses not to talk about it.) She could respond to my experience with anything from "Oh, Ok," to "I don't care," to "I'm sorry that you felt hurt," to "Grow up!" to "I'm sorry that my issues are effecting you." She would not need to deny my experience, she could offer her own, even if that's "I didn't realize you were upset," "I don't remember anything happening, but tell me what you experienced," to "I was in a bad mood and took it out on you!" (Methinks she doth protest overmuch that nothing has ever happened in our relationship where she was in the wrong.)
Growing up, my wife was emotionally overrun by her mother. My wife felt she had to keep her mother literally alive by supporting her emotionally with people problems and her black sheep brother, submerging her own needs and personality to be at her mothers instant command, always listening to the same stories over and over (brainwashing), always sacrificing her own wants and needs to be ready to meet her mother's, avoiding her mother's guilt trips, telling her mother how to pay all the bills at 8YO :shock:. My wife learned that the ONLY way to take care of a relationship is to give yourself up and say nothing. It was only about 6 months ago that for the first time in her life she actually realized that I am NOT her mother and am NOT "exactly like" her mother. Unfortunately part of her knew all along that I am not her mother and I was not out to dominate her like that. So, she let all those years of frustration, hurt, loss, and rage out at me. Then, to preserve the relationship because she still feels like that little girl, she either dissociates while she does it or suppresses it and denies that there ever was an action or reaction from her. It the last part that prevents her from even being aware of what she does or how she feel, let alone to ackowledge it and work through it. Fundamentally, I believe that my wife does not comprehend the concept of a relationship between two equals. She was raised to believe that EVERY relationship is a power struggle and you are either the one-up in control or you are the one-down victim. Growing up, she always had to be the victim. In that role she is the martyr, just like her poor suffing mother. She does not speak about anything and keeps her silence to "preserve" the relationship. When she switches to the other role, she feels power and control, but also such fear and shame that she either dissociates while she does it or denies it afterward. I hope that one day she will wake up and realize that whole flawed viewpoint is her mother's doing and just take her own power.
I think the idea of a belated Christmas gift of money for the two of you, after suggesting an aniversary gift of money is not within the scope of "normal" considering the situation of your marriage. It makes me think she wants money right now for something and I would be intent on finding out exactly what is going on there concerning that. At the same time I think I would make it clear to her that you feel that she is only interested in the financial aspects of the marriage if this is how you truly feel and let her know that such suggestions on her part tend to make you feel this way. I would definitely bring this up as an example to your therapist.
After everything else going on in therapy, I don't really see a point to bringing this up in there. In another setting, it could be absolutely innocent. There are a couple of the reasons I believe it is about the money for her, at least at this point. First, when I started waking up, I asked her if she could find even a tiny spark of respect or care or tolerance for me (never mind like or love!). She said she could not, but didn't want to get a divorce because she wasn't miserable, but also not really happy. After I told her I wanted a divorce, all she could talk about was money and made angry comments to me like "Must be nice to have all the financial power!" Never mind I workd my butt off for 20 years to get that power! She didn't ever seem to realize things like that.
Back to your wife's avoidance of intimacy. I'm not really sure you are at the point of being ready to give up this relationship. Your teeter tottering gives me this indication. Are you sure you don't want to give it one more all or nothing chance? If you don't that's fine. If you do I think the both of you need to get serious. She needs to stop leaving the house and the two of you need to start doing things together.
The back and forth is what I wanted help with in therapy. :( I have given this many, many chances. I get none of my emotional needs met in this relationship and instead have to find ways to protect myself from it and places to get refilled to be able to withstand it. I at least want to have the possibility of a physical and sexual relationship in my life at some point. My wife has not been able to discuss this AT ALL for at least the last 10 years!
I have to say I'm a bit concerned with the dynamics of what is going on in your household now. You and your daughter going out to dinner, watching TV together, etc, while your wife is out who knows where, doing who knows what. Seems to me that you and your daughter are doing husband/wife things while your wife is out doing teenage girl things. I think this needs to stop for everyones sake, including and especially your daughter's sake. This is not normal. How does your wife and daughter get along? Do they go out alone together ever? If your wife and daughter also spend a lot of time alone together I retract all that I have said here concerning this and what I am about to say. If your wife and your daughter don't spend much time together and you or your wife aren't willing to put a serious effort into your marriage (by her stop going out alone and the two of you, you and your wife doing things together AND the three of you as a family doing things together) then I strongly suggest you and your wife AT LEAST seperate until you decide what to do so as this what appears to be an unhealty dynamic with your daughter does not continue.
Actually, due to her work schedule, my wife spends a lot more time with my daughter after school. At least she did until my daughter got her license and car. :) Due to my work schedule and my daughter's busy social life, I usually need set aside time with her in advance, like for dinner. :( Last night, she was getting ready to brush her teeth when I walked by and we started talking. My wife was already in bed and my daughter had just gotten home from being with friends. I ask her some questions about how things are going at school and the latest teen drama. She tells me and I validate her experience. I try to slip a lesson or a suggestion in every once in a while (its a dad thing). I tell her I love her, give her a hug, and that's it. I don't believe that there is anything unhealthy going on with my relationship to my daughter (could you be projecting? Seems like a lot of that going on here the last day or so).
I hope this doesn't come off as too critical and again this is just my perspective and I'm not in the situation so I can be way off on things.
Even if you were critical, I wouldn't take offense. :) I like good questions, they make me stop and fiure out what I really believe.
-
Hello Longtire:
"You don't want to listen to what I think!"
"No, I think you're wrong"
At the end of the session, he did apologize for saying "Stop" (in one form or another) to interrupt me over the years and said the he would not do that with me any longer since it "doesn't seem to be helpful" for me.
I wonder, did he genuinely apologise – i.e. take responsibility for something that doesn’t work? Or did you feel that it’s your fault, for not being a ‘good’ client?
he keeps cutting me off telling me that my judgement is wrong, he disagrees, he has a different definition, etc. He hasn't even heard 99.999% of all the things that have gone on, because he keeps trying to disprove each example as I bring it up.
Would you believe me if I say that all of the above sounds like my mother? And you know what my mother is.
Growing up I experienced a severe lack of validation, feedback, emotional interaction, etc. I think I need to get over that to grow out of co-dependency and maybe even some relationship addiction. I don't know how to get over that right now.
Maybe leaving this therapist right now will help? You don’t have to make any broken relationship work. You are allowed to just walk away and not look back. If you can do this right now with this therp, wouldn’t that be a huge step? “This isn’t working for me. Goodbye.” You don’t have to do anything else.
-
Thanks Longtire for not being offended by my post. Where did you get the name Longtire from?
Concerning shopping and spending money, my mother who I believe has a serious PD, more specifically NPD, has an obsession with shopping and buying. I really see it as her substitute for intimacy. If she wasn’t shopping and buying, she was talking about her shopping and what she bought. Before I had a family when I had a superficial relationship with her I would see her a couple times a month and this was really most of what she talked about. Same when I talked with her on the phone. If I would start to say anything about what happened in my life she would cut me off in midsentence and continue on, even if it was her who asked me what was going on in my life. I got where I wouldn’t start a conversation about what was going on with me and if she asked I would say “nothing”. Your wife might have a similar problem of her shopping and buying being a distraction for avoiding her fearful intimacy needs.
I’ve read through your thread and stated earlier in the thread that I believe your marriage was never actually a marriage and I do have some understanding of the depth of the problems that you have experienced with your wife. I do believe though that you have sent mixed messages to your therapist, which is normal to a large extent. In the past couple months you had decided to leave her, then you told him you changed your mind, now I’m not sure you are clear with him or yourself as far as what it is that you want. Leaving her or working on the marriage is two opposite directions. Each direction would require to be approached in a different manner. I am not trying to “defend” your therapist here. You stated that “The back and forth is what I wanted help with in therapy.” And I happen to agree with you that this is what needs to be addressed at this time. I think it might be quite possible that you need another therapist, not one that agrees with you all the time but seven years working with the same guy is a long time. In the end though no one, not a therapist or anyone else can fix this for you, YOU will have to make a decision one way or the other and proceed or YOU will have to stay in a state of ambivalence going back and forth.
I personally have the impression that you feel it is necessary that your wife be viewed as “abusive” in order for you to “feel” justified in leaving her. And I think that until you resolve this you will continue in your state of ambivalence. I also believe it would be more productive for you to focus on the fact that you have important needs that are not being met in this relationship rather than focusing on your wives behavior. Whatever state you are in ambivalence, going to leave her, or trying to work on the relationship I think this attitudinal change (which you already have made a lot of progress in this direction) is helpful. Being fully “grown up” means taking full responsibility for one’s needs being met and one’s own behavior and the consequences of one’s own behavior. And it is my impression that your fear of this is what is keeping you in a state of ambivalence. I don’t think that you have come to the confidence in yourself yet to be able to do this, however I do believe that you are on the cusp of being able to make this leap.
I’m not saying that you are being inappropriately intimate with your daughter, I’m just saying that it is unhealthy for everyone when parents who live together have a more intimate relationship with their children than with each other, I think we can agree with this. You are in a bad situation though and to a large extent this can’t be helped, you sure don’t want to abandon your daughter now. I just think it’s something to be watchful of and also that it is an impetus for you to get out of the ambivalent state and to move one way or the other. I don’t think I’m projecting here I think it is a legitimate matter to consider. If you’re interested in exploring how this could be a projection on my part I’m open to that.
Concerning intimacy and sexual contact, I think you realize that sexual contact without some history of emotional intimacy is not very successful. I believe it would be necessary for you and your wife to establish some emotional intimacy before any sexual contact was considered.
I would also like to talk about validation a little. We will never be totally validated by everyone. And really in the end we have to validate things for ourselves, until we do this we are left in an ambivalent state. So I think as an adult we have to take in what we can from outside of ourselves and then provide our own validation.
Again things that I’ve said concerning you and your situation are only my thoughts and impressions and I very well could be wrong about any number of things. If nothing else the length of my last post and this post will help contribute to the length of this thread. Are you sure you don't want to change your name to "Longthread" ;)?
LM
-
I left out the kicker from yesterday. I was getting tired of having him tell me I was not correct in various ways without offering any suggestions or reframing, interpretation, explanation, or otherwise being helpful. So, I told him I believe that the therapy is not being very helpful and asked him what he thought was going on in the session. He said, "You don't want to listen to what I think!"
A former therapist once addressed me in a frighteningly hostile manner (gee, I'd blocked the memory until now). I left the room immediately and never returned. I would do the same in this case. Therapists lose patients when they have no idea what they're doing. That is their problem, not the patient's. It's like any other professional. You can fire them!
His "patient contract" is not valid, you can't be arrested or sued for ignoring it. It's his way to stop patients from leaving. You don't ever have to go back and see him. You don't ever have to talk to him on the phone. You can leave a message saying you will not be coming to any more appointments and you are going to see someone else. THAT IS PERFECTLY OKAY. He may call you anyway but don't take his call! He shouldn't call you but I suspect he would. You are an incredibly reliable patient, he knows what he's losing and won't want you to leave. That's tough.
I'm so sorry that this guy was such a loser. :cry:
bunny
-
So, I told him I believe that the therapy is not being very helpful and asked him what he thought was going on in the session. He said, "You don't want to listen to what I think!" I told him that I was trying to understand and did want to hear what he thought. That's when he told me that he wasn't being supportive because he didn't believe that my wife's behavior qualifies as abuse. (At least then I could understand why he keeps telling me "No, I think you're wrong" without offering any other feedback. Not , that I agree with him.)
WOW. I don't know what else you can do-- you really did communicate with him and he sure enough didn't "get it." My post before was just to try to see if there could be something to gain from being honest with him, but you were and his reaction was completely inappropriate.
I'm not sure why I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt-- sorry. I have always had really wonderful therapists and have a bit of an idealizing thing going with them I think. But I know there are bad ones out there.
I wouldn't even be friends with someone who acted this way. And I sure as heck wouldn't have that kind of person as my therapist.
I agree with everyone else-- run away! And that contract is completely b.s. In fact, for me it signals that he's had folks leave before and he wants to "keep them" from leaving. Which, ick.
And you don't even have to tell him why you are leaving at this point-- you have been honest with him and he should know.
-
HI, Lontire: I have been busy, and not posting much, but it occured to me that perhaps you are still stuck trying to make everyone believe you, or validate you, at the expense of your own opinion of yourself.
IMO a therapist who compounds your life by making THAT relationship a concern/worry is simply a waste of your precious energy. Same goes for a spouse doing the same thing. I know.
The best thing I ever did for myself and my children, was to learn to respect my own opinions and feelings, and to validate them myself. I spent years (most of my life) trying to please everyone else. Guess what? That NEVER works. It can't be done. I realized that I did this because I didn't believe I was good enough, loveable enough, (whatever negative self concepts go here) to actually DESERVE what I really wanted out of life. When I started to change my internal "tape" if you will and my core beliefs about myself (which were scewed by any number of experiences) only then was I able to trust myself.
It was a pretty scary place to go, and at first I was afraid to look at myself, so I put the blame on everyone else;
"they don't think I should do this"
"I need a really good looking reason for whatever I do, so I won't be questioned...which would lead me to question myself again." (which I found out would happen anyway: a vicious cycle as it were).
I should not have been so afraid. I had a therapist who helped me do this (and this is why I would dump yours immediately). I decided to have a little faith in myself, in God/whatever, and take a good look. I was pleasantly surprised. I AM a good person. I never want to hurt anyone (sound familiar? I think it's what leads a lot of us into N relationships). I DESERVE good treatment, I deserve my dreams. I won't suddenly become "one of them" if I look out for myself. As a matter of fact, I heal others if I heal myself.
You deserve happiness. We all do. Look inside. I rather doubt you will find a monster. I am not clairvoyent, but I get a sense that you are a good soul, so why should you put up with/try to figure out all this garbage your supposed therapist is dumping on you. They are like lawyers, we want soooo much for them to know what they are doing, but the truth is, they are just human, and some are not a good match for us.
When I was with my ex, he had a way of getting me all turned around in my head...he used my poor self image against me always. They are expert in "f***ing" with our heads. I have to help my kids diffuse that all the time (as my son said: "you got to divorce him...I'm stuck with him as my dad!!"). I realize when I am getting confused, it's his energy again (through my kids) and realizing this is essential for me.
It's not MY energy anymore. I am love. Peel away layers and we all are. (the N's are just stuck in those layers). A therapist who keeps you focusing on those awful layers of pain.....and makes you justify wanting to leave them behind, is not doing you any good, and actually is setting you back.
Good luck, Longtire. Bless you.
-
IMO a therapist who compounds your life by making THAT relationship a concern/worry is simply a waste of your precious energy.
I agree, and apologize again if it seemed as if I was taking his side over yours, Longtire. I really never meant that! I guess I just want so badly for you to have support. I want you to have a great therapist :) I wish this guy were it.
But he sure as heck isn't.
-
Dear Longtire,
A few thoughts, similar to those of the posters above, have been going round my head, and if I ask you a couple of questions, they are not meant to put you on the spot in any way.
Firstly, what is the importance for you of a therapist agreeing that your wife is abusive and not 'merely' a very difficult and unloving person?
And second, as Mum noted above, the people we post about here who have traumatised us so much, really turn our heads inside out.A question for everybody really...does the fact that we feel SO confused and damaged mean that we have definitely been abused in some way,or that we have been dealing with a sick person, or just plain hurt, betrayed, etc.
Sincerely,
Lara.
-
Hi Lara
Our feelings of damage and confusion are definite indications that we have been damaged and confused, :D usually deliberately :( .
-- one of the first things an abuser does when 'grooming' a target is teach that target to doubt his or her perceptions of reality (you don't really feel that way, you don't really think that, I'm beating you because I love you). Voila, confusion.
After enough abuse, the target begins to realize that they've been harmed emotionally (if not also physically.) Voila, feelings of damage.
One of the hardest climbs we have to make is the climb back up out of the valley of believing we don't know what we feel, can't trust what we feel, don't know when we're being hurt. that's why an invalidating or frankly hostile therapist does so much damage. Instead of helping us climb out, they're kicking us back down the ladder.
Try 'The Verbally Abusive Relationship' and 'Controlling People', both by Patricia Evans. She's nailed this cold.
-
Last night was rough, with a lot of feelings of loneliness and self-doubt. But, I did finally manage to get some sleep. Today, I feel something is changed since I was able to be open to just feeling last night. Today is a beautiful day and I feel happy again. :) I love that I have feelings and they change!
I know that what I am doing at this point in my life is growing up emotionally. I'm still emotionally enough of a little kid that I hate the experience of feeling frustrated, confused, hurt, alone and adandoned AGAIN. :( I'm grown up enough to realize that these are exactly where I most need to grow to be happy and healthy. I recognize that the more open and welcoming I am to these feelings without trying to avoid them by "fixing" them or "doing something" about them, the more I grow each time they come up. I also realize that this has been happening all my life, and it hasn't killed me yet! It used to be terrifying, now its just inconvenient.
The ambivalence I feel is a result of the confusion in my feelings and thoughts. The confusion is not a result of something else, it is a memory of my experience of growing up. It is how I know that I'm am back in an area that I have tremendous growth potential in. :) The confusion does not mean that I am damaged or that there is anything wrong with me, like I used to fear. I don't know where that fear went. I am very self-accepting and self-validating today. I don't KNOW why besides what is in these paragraphs, it just is. I'm good with that.
I don't NEED a therapist right now. I'm making tremendous progress directing my own learning and growth (if I say so myself :)), with prayer, reading, thought, feeling, and suggestions and support from many people. I WANTED a therapist to make this easier for me and reduce the rough nights. I wasn't getting what I needed from this therapist, so I'm not going to continue. I'm going to call and tell this therapist that I'm not going to continue to see him, and cancel the next scheduled appointment. I'm not sure yet whether I will look for another therapist, I will wait and see how I feel. Vunil, perhaps you were giving him the benefit of the doubt because you see things in a balanced way, and I was already holding on enough to the negative view of things? In any case, no apology necessary.
Right now, I want to sleep by myself in my own bed in my own place. I want to have a say in how my place is, without having to fight just to be recognized. I'm willing to sleep on the floor, eat off paper plates, and anything else I need to do to get that. I don't expect I will need to do that. I'm well off financially right now, but not rich. No one will die or even starve, be homeless, etc. because I do this. Why have I been wrapped around a pole on this? I think I know. I was trying to work this out mutually with my wife, and she is not able to do that with me. Now, I am working it out for myself.
My wife does not treat me with respect. I don't get even my most basic wants or needs met in relationship with her. I no longer need to know anything else about that. I do not want to continue being married to her. I don't need anyone else's permission (even God's) to live my life and take the best care of myself that I can. All of the searching for permissions, reasons, or decisions was simply avoiding me taking my own power out of fear. I accept the responsibilities for my decisions and my behavior.
-
Again things that I’ve said concerning you and your situation are only my thoughts and impressions and I very well could be wrong about any number of things. If nothing else the length of my last post and this post will help contribute to the length of this thread. Are you sure you don't want to change your name to "Longthread" ;)?
LM, I identify with that! :D:D:D:D
I'm not sure who asked. I picked longtire because it took me a long time to tire of the situation enough to do something about it. Thank God I finally did!
-
Now that sounds to me like you have your stuff together :). And feelings they come and go and we do need to pay attention to them but they alone do not control who and what we are, we have reasoning also. And if we take advantage of life, we never do STOP growing, it’s a life long process to either enjoy or avoid.
LM
-
Longtire, so what will you do instead of going to therapy, if anything? Will you go for a walk in the woods, go and look at some art, go swimming…..buy yourself a motorbike (if you don’t have one)?
It’s not at all the most important thing you said above, but I love the line about eating off paper plates. That just about says it. Just what is important in life? P
-
A belated reply here, I've been away from the board for awhile, but I felt that I had to respond to this:
My therapist told me today that the reason he has not been supporting the things I've been saying is that he does not believe what my wife does qualifies as verbal abuse, emotional abuse or psychological abuse. According to him, the person doing the abuse must be doing it intentionally and must be trying to cause the feelings or doubts by swearing or name-calling.
What? Emotional abuse is only swearing and name-calling? This therapist doesn't know what he is talking about, and how can he possibly be a therapist if he doesn't know better than this? Even I know that emotional abuse can be so much more, and is a much wider concept than this. And if a person has a PD then they may not be consciously aware of their motives for doing things (even "normal" people are sometimes not aware for their motives of doing things). Does he actually have any professional training? If so, it seems as if he has forgotten much of it and needs a refresher course! I agree with everyone else here: leave him!
Otherwise, congratulations on your progress and your newly found strength to choose!
Sleepy
-
My relationship with my wife is based on control rather than friendship, respect, and caring. I realized this after reading the following thread. I was trying to treat this as a mutual relationship, when it has never had that basis. Its obvious now why what I was doing didn't work. I wrote a lot of these points down so I can continue to refer to them if I get confused about what a healthy relationship looks like.
http://www.drirene.com/catbox/index.php?showtopic=11241
Now that sounds to me like you have your stuff together . And feelings they come and go and we do need to pay attention to them but they alone do not control who and what we are, we have reasoning also. And if we take advantage of life, we never do STOP growing, it’s a life long process to either enjoy or avoid.
Another rough night for me last night. I feel like my life and choices is like a tree getting pummeled by a storm. Before, the storm would knock my tree over every time. Now, I get blown back and forth violently, but the tree is still rooted in the ground the next morning. At times I've wished that I could be as oblivious as other people often seem to be. To go through life never considering whether what I'm doing is hurting or helping other people since I would feel great about myself all the time. But to do that, I would have to give up awareness of the good and beuatiful along with awareness of the ugly. That is too high a price for me to pay, even if it were possible.
Longtire, so what will you do instead of going to therapy, if anything? Will you go for a walk in the woods, go and look at some art, go swimming…..buy yourself a motorbike (if you don’t have one)?
Portia, I will feel my feelings and be open to my desires. On a more practical level I will do more cycling and get more rest. :)
-
Hi Longtire:
Sorry to hear you had another not so great night. Tonight will be better.
I wrote a lot of these points down so I can continue to refer to them if I get confused about what a healthy relationship looks like.
That's a good idea. Maybe even take it a step further and write down what was/is missing in this marriage that you are ending. Based on control is a very big point. What else is not there?
As you go along and if you feel yourself weakening, or having second thoughts about why you are ending it, you can refer to those two lists: the one that has all the stuff that makes for a good relationship and the one that has all the stuff that was/is missing so far, leaving a void.
At times I've wished that I could be as oblivious as other people often seem to be. To go through life never considering whether what I'm doing is hurting or helping other people since I would feel great about myself all the time.
Why do I get the feeling that you're getting down on yourself, possibly thinking that in ending your marriage... you will be hurting other people??
Are you ever a rotten person for wanting a relationship that is mutual and caring!!! :shock: :shock:
What a crumb you are, Longtire, for ending a relationship that is causing you emotional pain and is doing no one any good. :shock: :shock:
How crazy of you to want to set an example for your daughter of at least...what NOT to tolerate and what NOT to stay stuck in!! :shock:
And all this thinking and writing and considering and working things out you've been doing, before coming to the decision to divorce, Longtire, you dirty dog you!!! What a waste of time that was eh?? :shock:
Do I sound ridiculous yet??
I hope so because those are totally silly statements. :!: Not true!!
The first step is thinking about it all. The next is deciding. After that comes getting used to the idea, accepting it, planning, and finally.....doing it.
It will take time to adjust and move on but you will do it, Longtire.
And there will be less hurt for all, in the long run, right?
Sort of like comparing a few days of having a cold to years and years of suffering from lung disease.
There will be discomfort but there will be healing too.
I wonder if it might be a good idea to find a therapist to help you through the next phase?
Hope you have a better night tonight!!
GFN
-
Sorry to hear you had another not so great night. Tonight will be better.
Thank you. I'm sure I'll sleep better tonight if only from exhaustion! :|
At times I've wished that I could be as oblivious as other people often seem to be. To go through life never considering whether what I'm doing is hurting or helping other people since I would feel great about myself all the time.
Why do I get the feeling that you're getting down on yourself, possibly thinking that in ending your marriage... you will be hurting other people??
Actually, I think that was more self-pity. Thanks for pointing it out. I'm trying to cut down. :) Sometimes (a lot lately) I get really tired of learning, growing, working, changing, etc. even though I like the results. I still have childish fantasies of being DONE where I can just live life and I already know everything I will ever need to know to be satisfied and happy.
Do I sound ridiculous yet??
Yes. :lol: :lol: :lol:
I hope so because those are totally silly statements. :!: Not true!!
I agree, but I enjoyed your bit of theater a lot! :lol: :lol: :lol:
I found this on the following website. When I read it 2-3 months ago I thought it was a good idea, but today I really GET IT. In terms of this marriage I believe that I'm working on step 5. Kinda feels good to be nearer then end than the beginning. :D
http://www.helpyourselftherapy.com/topics/
WHAT TO DO ABOUT EXPECTATIONS YOU HAVE ABOUT OTHERS
1) Decide what the other person would have to actually do for you to be satisfied.
2) Ask for these specific behaviors from them. (This usually includes teaching and giving concrete examples.)
3) Examine your standards: (Can you change your standards to make them better for you?)
4) Accept that things are what they are (after you've done a good job of #1 and #2).
5) Be responsible: (For either staying in this situation or for finding a better one.)
-
Hi Longtire,
Sorry the past couple of nights have been rough. :( I hope you start feeling grounded soon. Loss is loss - even if it's the loss of a dream we still get blown around a bit.
Take care - prayers your way.
Chutzbagirl
-
I decided to bring my postings back over to this "long, long story" thread. http://voicelessness.com/disc3/viewtopic.php?t=1347 Maybe if I get the longest thread I'll change my name to "longthread" as suggested previously. :)
Thank you all again for the support, especially bunny for being there for me in an hour of need. Why is growth so painful? :cry: I know it is, but I don't know why. I feel annoyed and dropped that it is so hard to find someone local who understands what I've been going through. I know that is a reflection of how it felt to me as a kid. Its also a reflection of my still tenuous, but growing self-confidence. I'm in an area where I have to make decisions and take action WITHOUT the comfort of thinking about it forever first. Much more alive than I've ever been, but scary too.
Some of the inner dialogue work I did over the weekend: Sam is a part of my inner family who showed up about the same time 8yo "little longtire" did. Sam didn't talk much and seemed to be angry much of the time. I just welcomed him in and figured he would speak up at the right time. Apparently, it was the other morning. :) Sam is sort of my protective parent part, but he had to grow up too fast and was operating out of the same time in my history as "little longtire." Sam has been trying everything he can to keep me in this relationship. He saw growing up in my family that relationships were lonely and confusing. When I got married, he saw that it was lonely and confusing. After going through depression, he vowed never to let that happen to "us" again. So he decided that we "had" to stay in this relationship until we figured out what we are doing wrong so we can have relationships that are NOT lonely and confusing. He was afraid that if I didn't solve it here, I would never be able to solve it or I would get depressed again and die.
I explained to him that we DO already have relationships that are not lonely and confusing. They feel close and not confusing, even when I don't understand everything about the other person. It is a very different feeling. I have it with my daughter, with people here, with my friends, and even a bit with my parents now. I have this everywhere else but with my wife. Sam admitted that he sees that now and entrusted me (adult me) with the responsibility for making decisions, since I'm generally doing a good job of it these days. :) He was also afraid that he wouldn't have a purpose anymore, but I reminded him that he's supposed to protect me by pointing out problems. Since he won't be consumed by forcing me to stay anymore, he'll have a lot of time and energy to point out unhealthy things in my life. I also don't have to figure out the confused feeling anymore, because it is my experience of irrationality. No wonder I couldn't figure out the logic behind it. "It" is the lack of logic.
Back to the here and now. I called my old T and told him that I wasn't coming anymore. I haven't heard a response, but assume he got my message. I have a call in to a new T. I want to interview her a little before setting up an appointment. I decided to try a female counselor this time. I'm not entirely sure why, partly just to try something new, partly because the last joint counselor was good in individual, just not in joint.
Lawyer appointment was bumped until tomorrow. I can't wait to get some answers and start taking more concrete action to reclaim my life. I just finished reading "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" last night. The more aware I am of what is going on and the more validation I get that my wife is truly always looking to be one up, the more problems I have sleeping in the same bed with her. Yes, I know, duh?!? :) But there is more to it than that.
I am awake until exhaustion claims me at 2am or 3am these nights. I've been trying to pin down the feelings, but I'm not sure how to describe it. It is sort of like passive "fight or flight" if that makes sense. :? My breathing get shallow, my muscles tense up, especially in my legs. Trying all kinds of muscle relaxing exercises don't seem to help much, the tension creeps back in. My breathing gets shallow, I have to concentrate to take deep slow breaths. It feels a lot like getting that surge of adrenelin WITHOUT the boost. I was going to say that I wonder if this might be low level PTSD, but I don't believe that my situation has ever been bad enough to warrant that. Plus, I don't want to be a hypochondriac. Besides dismissing my own experience (a "no no") I just now took a quick read of a couple of PTSD sites and it sounds very familiar. Yet, another topic to tackle. I know what I'l be doing at 1am tonight. :twisted:
After reading all this I sound really grim today. The truth is, despite everything, last night was the best night for me that I remember since getting married! I felt free and able to choose any course I want in life. It felt like me. Today I am feeling more of the pressures of doing all of the things I need to do to prepare. That's a lot, but I am getting them done. I even have a little time left over to enjoy life these days. :)
-
I started wavering a bit after I got home tonight and my wife came in. She says "Hi" and that's about it anymore. Anyway, it isn't anything that she says or does, its about my reactions. I just realized that one of the triggers was that my wife got a letter from her parents and a letter from her aunt today and her birthday is not coming up real soon. Uncertainty and projection on my part, ick!
<<< I started thinking, what if I do have PTSD and I take care of that, wouldn't I be able to tolerate the situation better then?
>>> Undoubtedly part of my wavering right now is due to my being exhausted and stressed from the situation and needing a real break for a while. What outcome and for how long would I consider tolerating the relationship at this point? Not much at all.
<<< Don't I create stress in my own mind? So, I could just stop being stressed and I would feel fine in the current situation.
>>> Yes, to some extent. If my needs are being chronically unmet in this situation (they are) or if I do indeed have some PTSD, then no, I can't just will myself better right now. I need space and time.
<<< Can't I just have a separation for a while to take care of myself until I am better off. I don't need to ask for a divorce right away. She is still going to therapy as far as I know. There is a glimmer of hope.
>>> I have no reason to believe that she is moving in that direction right now since she doesn't talk about it. Not talking about it is a sign. My unfounded hope is the main thing that kept me in this unhealthy situation for so long. Is the relationship even tolerable to me at the present time? No? Then I need to move to a healthy place. Haven't I waited long enough for my wife to get better with her issues? Yes!
Will a separation or a divorce be more likely to get me into a healthy place in my life? A separation maintains that unhalthy connection, a divorce severs it (legally anyway :)). If divorce turns out to be a mistake, it is not unfixable. You aren't still holding out for a miracle to fix the relationship and make everything perfect are you? Wishful thinking will not solve this problem and makes the decisions harder, not easier.
<<< There is still a possibility the my wife could grow out of this and we could have a great relationship for the rest of our lives.
>>> Yes there is. I can think of many, many things which are possible, but I am not basing my life on them. It is possible that I could get hit by a bus any day now, maybe I should never go out again. What is likely based on my past experience? It will be very difficult for her to change and will likely take a very long time before she is in a healthy place. I am too aware to stay in an emotional vacuum like this anymore.
This is one of those self-journal posts. I can't believe people read this. Does anyone get anything useful from these kinds of posts? I'll keep posting regardless :P since they help me sort out my thoughts and feelings.
PS I have been pushing a bit to get my daughter to go to church. She has been saying that she's excited to go, but there has been something else come up every week for the past 6 weeks. Tonight, she came to talk to me and told me how she prays for 1/2 hour every night and reads the bible and wants to find her own relationship with God. She said that even though people at church are nice, she feels pressured while she's there and pays more attention to that than the message. She would rather only go to church occasionally when it feels right. I told her I understand how she feels and that the most important thing was having a realtionship with God. Like father, like daughter? I told her that I was very glad she came to tell me and that I had been pushing a bit because I noticed that what she was saying and what she was doing didn't quite agree. I had to slip in that parental lesson. She makes me very proud. :D
-
longtire,
Yes I read these posts and find them interesting. My therapist once told me that my family gives me the choice of (a) massive guilt if I do what I want; or (b) bitter resentment if I submit to them. I tend to choose the bitter resentment most of the time.
bunny
-
I had yet another insight this morning. Good night's sleep last night, by the way! Yay! :D I have been reluctant to letting go of connection with my wife and that has made preparing and leaving more difficult. The connection that I had is being useful to her and being angrily "tolerated" in return for it. Actually, she used me as her dumping ground. I'm sure that is important to her, but not in a way I want to be a part of. :evil: I want to be seen as valuable and precious and then loved or at least liked, in return for it. I will not accept less than this any longer. Boy, did I settle for something toxic for a long time. Connection at any price is NOT worth it.
bunny, luckily:?, somehow I usually chose option (a) in my life. Marriage has been the big huge exception, though. There I chose (b) for a long time. I look forward to a time when I have no (well, very little) interaction with anyone who tries to force either option on me. I will be myself and only tolerate being around other people who are OK with that. I hate it when people give me 2 choices and tell me I have to pick one. :evil: The world is not "either or," it is everything in between.
-
Back to sleep not coming until the wee hours again last night. :(
On a good note, I talked with my lawyer yesterday and had him file the petition to start the 60 day waiting period. I found out what I need to do to protect myself financially during this without acting like a selfish jerk. :) I haven't filed the temporary orders yet. I still have some documents to copy, find a place to live, get some furniture, etc. I am going to give working out a divorce agreement between us a try first. I can always go back and file if and when that doesn't work out. I'm really looking forward to sleeping in my own bed, in my own place, that she has never been to!
I also talked with the new counselor and she seems like what I'm looking for, more empathetic and validating. She has background in physical, sexual and verbal abuse, as well. Unfortunately, the first opening she had is almost two weeks away. :(
-
Wow! Good for you Longtire!
You're moving ahead steadily now!!
So did you tell her that you're leaving yet? (sorry if I've missed that somewhere. :oops: )
I'm glad you've found a therapist to support you through this. It isn't easy and it will be good to have her to lean on.
GFN
-
Wow! Good for you Longtire!
You're moving ahead steadily now!!
So did you tell her that you're leaving yet? (sorry if I've missed that somewhere. :oops: )
I'm glad you've found a therapist to support you through this. It isn't easy and it will be good to have her to lean on.
I don't feel steady, but I am still moving out. No, I don't plan to tell her until I am ready to move out. I really look forward to that counselor visit and am hopeful that she will be able to help support me through this. I really appreciate your support and enthusiasm.
This afternoon, I feel inadequate (progress? in the past I would have said worthless). I've had a lot of back and forth today. I believe that if I were further along in my psychological and spiritual growth I would be able to really trust in God and keep living in this relationship with my wife until she works her stuff out. I realized today that I'm feeling very sad about leaving because that is not what I really want. Even at this point, my biggest desire would be to have everything work out great between us. However, I am not at that point in my growth, I do need to get out of this unhealthy situation so I can continue to heal and grow, and the reality is that my wife is not able to even begin a mutual relationship today.
Part of this is my perfectionistic tendencies. If I just worked out ALL my issues by now, then I could help her and save the relationship as well as follow God perfectly, all at the same time! It is so ridiculous it is mind-boggling when I write it out, but this is what actually goes through my mind, I kid you not. In truth, I AM trusting God to get me through this and not punish me just because I am not up to the challenge today. THAT is scary because I have to give up my childish beliefs that *I* am (or ever was) in control. I think I am really fighting against giving up this notion of being in control.
Just realized another big piece of this as I was writing. I believe that if I am not in control that shows I am not "good enough" and it is OK for others to treat me any way they want. I don't deserve to be treated well. :evil: Yuck!!! I equate being in control with competence with deserving love. Who's idea is that? I don't want it! I think that one comes from my mother. I have to run, but I'll be thinking of ways to let that one go....
-
It's kind of neat to realize all the "wacky" negative tapes aren't the law. You can decide that they don't work anymore and retire them. Some of my old ideas that went into retirement were, "Mom wouldn't want you to buy/do/think that." (mom isn't in charge anymore); "Mom would kill you if you did XYZ" (but mom isn't here); "Everyone hates you." (seems a bit irrational); "You are the worst person in the world." (seems a bit of an exaggeration). I could go on but you get the idea.
bunny
-
Ugh, another rough night. Up until 4am the past couple of nights.
I really started questioning myself last night. Maybe the things I remember really didn't happen after all? She seems more reasonable these days. Maybe it really always was my fault? After a while I was able to remind myself of all the things that she has done and said and denied ever after. I wonder why it is taking so long (hours) to remember and validate my experience these days? She seems more reasonable these days because she doesn't talk at all and therefore doesn't give herself a chance to do all the denial and blaming and distraction. Not talking itself is verbal abuse from her, but it beats trying to talk with her AND verbal abuse!
I feel like I have to have an unquestionable diagnosis in order to prove to her that its acceptable fro me to leave. My brain tells me it doesn't matter what I say, it will only be about her internal reaction to it anyway. My internal 3yo is telling me that if she's is mad, we will be rejected and abandoned and get hurt emotionally, maybe physically. If she understands, she won't be mad and we won't have to get hurt again.
That is my experience of growing up with my mother. Poor little guy. No wonder I've been feeling so much intense sadness and fear lately. To a 3yo now is forever. He has no sense of time and this feels like EXACTLY what happened before to him. To him, it IS happening again right now. Also, if "mommy" is mad, I'm bad. If I'm bad, nobody can love me, not even God. If nobody loves me, I will be alone and feel bad forever.
As crappy as I've been feeling, I am GRATEFUL to feel it. I am not depressed. I am not numb. I am not N. I can feel the pain of my experience and sympathize with it, let it be there, accept it, and love it. This is exactly what my wife and other people trapped in N CANNOT do. That is why it is so difficult for them to get out of the trap. To feel your feelings, accept them and grow is a gift and I pity anyone who does not have that.
I can feel and accept these 3yo feelings while taking care of myself as an adult. If I make a mistake, no matter how terrible, I can acknowlege it, take responsibility, apologize, and work to heal it. It doesn't make me "unloveable," just human. It doesn't justify anyone else's actions toward me. How blessed am I!
-
Hello Longtire:
I wonder why it is taking so long (hours) to remember and validate my experience these days?
I think you answered your own question in the next sentence.
She seems more reasonable these days because she doesn't talk at all and therefore doesn't give herself a chance to do all the denial and blaming and distraction.
So you have to dig back in the pile to find the stuff to validate your decision, which is based on what she usually doesn, not what she's doing now (which is nothing).
That's why the lists of stuff that was/is missing from your marriage, stuff that was/is there that caused harm, reasons you don't want to be married to her anymore, etc can come in very handy at a time like this. Simply reading those lists over can refresh your memory of exactly why....you are sticking to your decision and how it came to be.
Maybe she sences that you are planning to go. Do you have a plan for how to respond if she starts begging and pleading and trying to infuse you with guilt??
Hope you have pleasant dreams tonight! :D
GFN
-
That's why the lists of stuff that was/is missing from your marriage, stuff that was/is there that caused harm, reasons you don't want to be married to her anymore, etc can come in very handy at a time like this. Simply reading those lists over can refresh your memory of exactly why....you are sticking to your decision and how it came to be.
Yes, every time I go back over what I rememebr in detail, I come to the same conclusions.
Maybe she sences that you are planning to go. Do you have a plan for how to respond if she starts begging and pleading and trying to infuse you with guilt??
After I recover from the shock :shock: I plan to leave. :D It has never been a problem for her to try to give me guilt or begging/blaming/whatever. I don't take it. The problem was when she got ME to question MYSELF and do the dirty work for her. I still get lost temporarily sometimes, but always find my way back to reality. I've been using the "I'm not able to talk right now" defense when that is the case. :)
-
Hi again Longtire:
So then.....if she starts somehow getting you to question yourself....for leaving.....your plan is to use the "I'm not able to talk right now" response?
Good idea. :!: :!:
How about your daughter? Does she know? Who will you tell first?
Sorry, don't mean to sound like 20 questions here. Just thinking about some of the tough stuff.....might help to sort it out ahead of time and be even better prepared for times ahead?? :D
GFN
-
Longtire - I'm gonna download a lot of info to you here, hang in there, you need the details in order for the general thing I want to say to make any sense. Ready?
There's something called PDSD, as well as PTSD. Right now PDSD isn't officially recognized in the states, as far as I can tell, but it certainly is in Europe, and more open-minded counselors in the US also realize it's around.
Where PTSD is post-traumatic stress disorder, PDSD is prolonged duress stress disorder.
PTSD, in the book definition, is the result of going through some intense, extreme trauma that has a definite start and end - like being trapped in a car that's gone over an embankment, and it takes them 3 days to find you (some poor little old lady actually went through that - she lived and recovered, thank God).
PDSD, on the other hand, is the result of being ground down and abused and frightened and jerked around, day after day after day after day. Prolonged. Duress. Stress. Disorder. Like living for 20 years with a partner who hates you and hits you and taunts you and explodes over nothing and then brings you flowers.... or working for a narcissistic, bullying jerk...
The difference is significant because with PTSD, the thing that did it to you is over and gone. Has to be. And you may fear a recurrence, but that fear can be dealt with. With PDSD, a lot of the time the person is still in the situation that's created it. And still fighting to believe his or her own perceptions of the situation because of all the 'gaslighting' going on by the perp.
So until there are severe symptoms... major depression, etc. ... PDSD is often not recognized. And in this country, there's still no formal diagnostic category for it, as I recall (I don't have the DSM at home, and don't have online access from here either, but I just did an online search and all the sites that cover PDSD are still UK, Australian, etc. Here's a URL for the one US site I found that discusses it, and they say it's not yet in the DSM, which is what I thought. I believe the term 'adjustment disorder' is used to cover it these days... so people can be treated...
http://www.a2zgorge.info/prevention/PTSD.htm
Where I'm going with all this blather is that your situation is a jiffy, dandy setup for PDSD. As are the situations that most of us on this board have been in or are currently trying to escape... so take a look at any information you can find on PDSD - the approach to treating it is somewhat different, but it's definitely treatable. [And it doesn't always mean a life sentence of antidepressants, either... although it may mean one does take them for awhile.]
OK, enough jargon and whatnot. I'm not offering a diagnosis for anyone, but I wanted to get this info out here because the difference between the two things is important and it's easier to heal when you have clear pictures of what you're healing from... :D
And because moving out takes on a whole nother aspect if you're looking at escaping from a PDSD factory.
-
Stormchild, thank you for the post and the heads up. It is very timely, as I have been reading about PTSD throughout the day. I believe that Complex or Chronic PTSD is the same as PDSD, though it sounds like PDSD is more directly focused on the cause of the problems.
I've read some about PTSD today and will continue to read. It is one of those homecoming feelings from reading something and realizing, "that's me they're talking about!" I do believe that I have something in the area of Complex PTSD or PDSD. (People never fit neatly into these little boxes, but the concepts are helpful anyway.) This started for me as a kid growing up in an emotionally neglectful, emotionally void family. (Funny, but that word "family" never seem right for my house growing up.) I had put myself away in a little box before I turned 10. (avoidant) Later, I went to therapy for depression (keeping it in), and more recently have come out of many years of being profoundly numb. Now the last two reactions came after being married. What is the situation of being married like now? It is emotionally void, with unacknowleged anger, just like it was growing up for me. No wonder I have been so stressed and distressed lately, even though "nothing is going on." It reminds me of the "nothing that went on" in my life as a kid.
I also believe from the reading so far that my wife suffers from PTSD/BPD. These seem to be strongly connected in many sufferers. One of the sources I read claimed that children who suffered growing up would turn to avoidant behavior if they were older, but to dissociation if they were younger. I believe that this matches both my and my wife's experience very well. I was older and became avoidant. She was likely younger and certainly has turned to dissociation. Along the way I found out that there is a strong correlation between BPD and memory disturbance like amnesia. I sort of knew it was related based on my wife's behavior, but this really clarified the picture for me.
So, it makes a lot more sense to me now why I feel the need to get out of this environment. It is continually re-wounding me every single day. I was feeling badly about leaving after I got home tonight. I reminded myself that my leaving is a caring, not hateful act that will not harm anyone, though some feelings might be hurt. Nothing that I can't address with caring talk. (I'm thinking primarily of my daughter here, but also possibly with my wife and her parents.) I need to do this to give myself time and space to get my head on straight so I can settle down and make better decisions. I do feel badly because I tell myself I "should" be able to own my reactions and handle them without leaving or impacting my wife and daughter as much. Reality is that I CANNOT do that right now for the reasons I wrote above.
For now, I am calling this a separation. I'm not going to pursue the question of divorce until it is either my choice with a clear head or I need to do it to protect myself from my wife's reactions or behavior. It is a relief to give up that question and concentrate only on the first step of separation. That is easier to hold onto in my current state.
All this explains a lot of things I never understood before: why I have had chronic problems falling asleep even after depression lifted, why it is so hard to make up my mind and waffling back and forth, why I kept myself numb for so long, why I didn't do something sooner to leave, why I feel more comfortable being away from home even though I want intimacy more than anything else.
-
Sounds good longtire.
Wise to consider it separation just now. One never knows - turnarounds can happen.
One piece of serious advice here... check into renting a place where you can have your cat. PM me if you want more details as to why I'm advising this - it's partly for your emotional welfare but also for your animal's welfare. Ns sometimes retaliate by doing things like giving pets to the pound. Even if your daughter loves the cat; she's not going to be able to protect it. [If you've already looked into this and I missed it upthread, I apologize.]
Besides the cat, if there's anything that you feel really 'at home' with, try to take it with you. A favorite armchair, a particular bookcase. This stuff does help you feel as though home is where you are. Especially if you can fall asleep in an unfamiliar place to the sound of a familiar purr.
Others who have been through this can probably give you more pointers... I just wanted to post about the kitty, to make sure someone said it sooner rather than later.
Good luck!!!!!!
-
oopsie. sorry. Ns sometimes retaliate; Borderlines almost always do. Keep an eye on that kitty.
-
Stormchild, thank you for the post and the heads up. It is very timely, as I have been reading about PTSD throughout the day. I believe that Complex or Chronic PTSD is the same as PDSD, though it sounds like PDSD is more directly focused on the cause of the problems.
http://www.bein.com/trauma/
This is a ptsd support site which I also belong to. There is information there about ptsd (although less about cptsd) and how it affects people, and also some very loving people.
Not chasing anyone away - I visit both. :)
-
Stormchild, I absolutely plan to take my cat, if only for my own emotional comfort. My wife has never been physically violent, but I don't know how she's going to react to my leaving. Who knows, she might be relieved and happy to see me go. :?
October, you brought tears to my eyes with your SeaWall peom. You have really captured the soul of these situations. Thank you for sharing that and your experience and your soul with us. Thanks for the link as well.
mudpuppy pointed out to me in a PM that I hadn't talked about my daughter in a while. I expect her to spend equal time and mom's and at dad's. She is 16 so I'll talk with her and take her feelings and wishes into account before deciding. If my wife tries to keep this from happening, I'll file the Temporary Restraining Order through my lawyer to get access. Of course, once that happens it will be much more difficult to avoid divorce. I know my boundaries here, and the rest is up to her.
I had an insight tonight as I was coming home. As usual, I was feeling more angry and emotionally "aroused" (minds out of the gutter :)) the closer to home I got. I think this is my body's way of gearing up to protect myself from what I perceive as a dangerous situation. Since the danger here is emotional/psychological/mental, my reaction is primarily in the same realm. Of course, this then spills over into physical reactions to the other reactions. I think that is at least part of the reason why I am having problems sleeping.
I also think that the doubt I feel when I first get home is another way I try to avoid the problem. If I'm wrong and she's right, all I have to do is give in and then I'm done. No more trying. Of course, no more caring, getting needs met, no more happiness, etc. if I cave in and give up on myself. I've been down that road in the past as well. I would suppress and get depressed or numb to avoid feeling anything. I won't do that anymore. There is no action, no solution, and no end to the pain that way. Appeasement does NOT work in an abusive situation, it only prolongs it.
-
Appeasement does NOT work in an abusive situation, it only prolongs it.
Bravo longtire :D :D :D :D :D !
You're absolutely right.
Narcissism and abusiveness are progressive diseases just like substance abuse... they don't stay stable, they always get worse. Maybe quickly, maybe slowly, but they always get worse.
Best of luck and I'm glad you'd already made plans to take the kitty, I felt badly about possibly causing you worry but would have felt worse if I'd said nothing and your cat was harmed.
-
Hey Long,
Keep making your plans, just do it without being so perfect.
Keep praying about it. YOU have to make the choice; getting approval from everyone else will keep you frozen with too many choices.
If you stay here for support everyone will want to see you step away from your pain.
You go to church; they will tell you it's always best if you can stay together.
YOU must take responsibility for YOU. In the end it will be down to YOU.
The emotional rollercoaster will be gone from your life; you will have time for YOU. In time seeking approval from YOUwill come with ease. Being approval seeking from everyone else needs balance, there is none with the N. Balance in your life it should be a goal for anyone.
Having made my plans to do a job-transfer, made me stick to my plans.
Not to follow through,I would LOOK like a total flake I believe in being responsible, keeping your word on something. All these people had been expecting me, my job had made plans, hired another person, my paper work had to be filed wtih the people in Dallas, I had to leave.
My H's medical problems made travel impossible for him to leave at that time, so maybe on the surface it was easy to say we would be "separated” for a short while and meet up later when he could travel by plane.
In your plan to separate is any plan to move forward. Make a commitment to something so you won't want to back-out.
I have not missed my H, keeping so busy no time for it. I can't believe it has been over 1 month. I'm still waiting for the Divorce part to happen; right now I’m storing up energy to deal with it.
MY life will only be altered not over.
Take Care Long. OR
-
Keep making your plans, just do it without being so perfect.
OR, I'm so far from perfect, I don't even know which direction it is! That hasn't stopped my internal 3yo for looking for it all these years. I think I have given him enough love and reassurance for the moment that he is willing for us to be not-perfect and still expects to be loved and cared for.
If you stay here for support everyone will want to see you step away from your pain.
You go to church; they will tell you it's always best if you can stay together.
YOU must take responsibility for YOU. In the end it will be down to YOU.
Yes, AND I need to get all my internal children together on the same page as well. I think the external back and forth has just been a reflection of the internal. Ultimately, resolving that will help everything else.
Having made my plans to do a job-transfer, made me stick to my plans. Not to follow through,I would LOOK like a total flake I believe in being responsible, keeping your word on something. All these people had been expecting me, my job had made plans, hired another person, my paper work had to be filed wtih the people in Dallas, I had to leave.
In your plan to separate is any plan to move forward. Make a commitment to something so you won't want to back-out.
I am going out this afternoon to look at places to stay and hopefully put money down on one. Once I have an address, I can really get started on the move. It is tough because I feel like my wife is trying to be more chatty since I pulled back and stopped volunteering information. I feel the pull of the hoover on me, but each time I go through the mental steps of why I made the decision in the first place. I come to the same conclusion each time. Each time I do this, it gets easier to do. I am really encouraged by your example OR, and am very glad that you have shared your experiences with us.
A quick :) note on the latest exchange. She called and left a message and asked if "we" could give some money to a friend of hers who is down on her luck. Actually she asked me to pray about it. Her friend has no money, works 3 jobs, only had liability insurance and got in a wreck that totaled her car. So my wife calls back later that day, and asks me if I've considered it and I told her that I had. I asked what amount she was thinking to give and she asked me how much I was thinking (this happens all the time), so I told her $100. She said that she was thinking $200. (hint, hint) I told her that I felt comfortable with $100, but that she could give $100 out of her own money to get it up to $200 total. She said that she didn't have any money left and would just take out the $100, which she did. i feel good about it because at the end of the day, I stuck to what I felt was right and didn't cave in to get some illusory approval from her. The approval never seems to happen anyway. :? Any comments?
-
Any comments?
Yeah. Did her friend get the money? :roll:
mudpup
-
It is tough because I feel like my wife is trying to be more chatty since I pulled back and stopped volunteering information.
pretty classic behavior---then when you start to relax she'll get mean again. Been there, suffered that... :(
-
longtire,
Who is this "friend"? It seems your wife becomes friendly when she wants cash.
bunny
-
Long: This is a good start, make a commitment. Get some balance in your life. Sort out all the rest when you get some peace in your life.
I am going out this afternoon to look at places to stay and hopefully put money down on one. Once I have an address, I can really get started on the move
Make it easy, find a place, separate understand your wife will try the nicey, nice stuff because she needs her N-supply. Once she gets you to drop your guard she will come in for the feeding. I have seen my H do it over an over. I would always fall for his kindness as he must be feeling better.
The approval never seems to happen anyway. Any comments?
Your wife asking you to help her friend could also be away to get your guard down. Maybe if you would give to a friend you would for sure give to her. She needs to make sure her supply is still there for her.
Long My husband had a medical evaluation report with the conclusion of a self-absorbed N. This helped me to understand it was not just physical pain.
( Now there are laws to keep his medical records private)
I think the laws should not be kept from the spouse, but that's another story.
I would say being understanding of your wife's personality you have no balance with her condition. Your conclusion should be you want to be healthy, happy, you want Love and understanding. You are alone emotionaly most of the time because she is not there for you like she should be.
One time in your young life, you had a connection with your wife because you had a lack of love in your family.
Years ago when you married we lacked knowedge, the things we have learned from the internet, TV, Ophra, Dr Laura, etc.
Our belief system was lacking in the knowledge to make educated decisions. Now you can find out things about people you never would believe. We were from another time when we got married.
Both your parents lack of understanding of there children had an affect on your decision to marry each other. Your understanding of who you are and who she is has changed. If she wanted to heal she would have done more to make it happen. She needs help for her, to allow balance for you. Her being N will not let that happen.
Your decision to move forward will allow your inter-child to grow.
Your parents will not be there to stomp your growth.
NOW you can grow-up in a healthy way.
Let your daughter see you as a healthy Father, strong because you made a decision to try another way to grow and be healthy.
She wants to understand how to see happiness what it looks like.
Take Care, OR
-
OR, I feel really understood and supported when I read your comments. I know they come from someone who understands because they have been there and done that.
Make it easy, find a place, separate understand your wife will try the nicey, nice stuff because she needs her N-supply. Once she gets you to drop your guard she will come in for the feeding. I have seen my H do it over an over. I would always fall for his kindness as he must be feeling better.
I drove around and looked at and called about a bunch of lease houses today. I have an appointment with a realtor tomorrow to go look at the top ones I picked out. They look really nice and I would not have to worry about noise with apartment neighbors, either theirs OR mine! Wish me luck! As for the kindness ploy, it was eye opening for me to read my journal from 10 years ago and see NO DIFFERENCE in our relationship. I mean none! That blew my mind. All the things I tried and all the learning and growth for me over a decade did absolutely nothing in this relationship. Its effect on my own life and my relationship with my daughter are different matters. :D
Your wife asking you to help her friend could also be away to get your guard down. Maybe if you would give to a friend you would for sure give to her. She needs to make sure her supply is still there for her.
She also has a pattern of seeking out needy people and playing caretaker(starting with her mother)/giver/martyr as a way to feel good about herself. One way to get supply of gratitude or moral superiority. She has often done this uninvited to people in the past and then gotten very angry and cut off ties with the recipients for not giving "enough" back to her. So much for freely caring and giving. :?
I would say being understanding of your wife's personality you have no balance with her condition. Your conclusion should be you want to be healthy, happy, you want Love and understanding. You are alone emotionaly most of the time because she is not there for you like she should be.
Whether I "should" or not, I do want to be healthy and happy with Love and deep connections in my life. Whether she "should" be there emotionally or not, she isn't. The difficulty for me is that she always claimed and still claims that there is nothing wrong and she wants intimacy more than anything, she is just waiting for me (to give in again) to go ahead and do it. If she said "I hate intimacy, I will never do that" it would have been a lot easier for me to recognize and leave. She tries to have it both ways, "safe" without intimacy (enmeshment/merging/overwhelm), and in control by withholding herself until I am no longer "angry."
This is related to her comment the other day along the lines that she didn't want to work on anything hard until we had built a strong relationship and just wants to have fun with each other for a while first. Then, when we have a strong relationship, we could start working on the issues between us. The cluelessness never ceases to astound me. I think she has made a fatal mistake this time, though. Not only is she not willing to talk with me, I am not willing to talk with her any longer without behavioral indications of my safety. Not her words. At this point, she needs to convince me that she has woken up and realized some things and made some serious changes in her life. This is what it will take not just right now, but also if there is ever any chance of this relationship coming back together. That is why I feel the suction of the hoover, but don't give in. Where are the behavior changes and the supporting info behind why she made them?
One time in your young life, you had a connection with your wife because you had a lack of love in your family.
Years ago when you married we lacked knowedge, the things we have learned from the internet, TV, Ophra, Dr Laura, etc.
Our belief system was lacking in the knowledge to make educated decisions. Now you can find out things about people you never would believe. We were from another time when we got married.
Both your parents lack of understanding of there children had an affect on your decision to marry each other. Your understanding of who you are and who she is has changed. If she wanted to heal she would have done more to make it happen. She needs help for her, to allow balance for you. Her being N will not let that happen.
Yes, exactly. I wonder whether my choice to numb out some time after coming out of depression was an un-/semi-conscious way of trying to slow down to keep from leaving her behind? Ultimately, I have to run life at a pace which is right for me. If she has a fundamentally different pace, then we (I) need to face reality and accept that.
Your decision to move forward will allow your inter-child to grow.
Your parents will not be there to stomp your growth.
NOW you can grow-up in a healthy way.
Let your daughter see you as a healthy Father, strong because you made a decision to try another way to grow and be healthy.
She wants to understand how to see happiness what it looks like.
Since I stopped spending my life (obsessing) trying to fix my relationship with my wife, I have spent it fixing my relationship with me and all the little me's inside. I have been passing on as much of that as I possibly can to my daughter. I have told her before that if I can tell or show her something now that will save her pain later in life I will do it, but also that there are some lessons each of us can only learn on our own. The more tools I show her, the better she will be able to respond to problems at any point in her life.
I get it now how I am responsible for living my life and making the decisions. If I don't make the decisions, bad things will happen because I am not rowing my boat, just drifting wherever other people's currents take me. If I row, I might be rowing in the wrong direction. For a while. Until I decide to go in another direction. Even if I make a terrible mistake and row in the absolute wrong direction for a while, I can just turn around and go the right way. I might even learn something along the way. :) Doing almost anything intentionally is better than doing nothing or drifting at other peoples' whims, even when it turns out to be the worng thing. It is hard for me to describe, but I get it.
-
Hey Long
I will always wish you luck in what ever it is you're doing.
Even if you choose to row your boat in another direction than others think you should go.
If I thought it was the wrong direction I may still keep my view, but would be there to let you know I'm here for support if you should so inquire. Keep making decisions, make mistakes just keep growing.
As for the kindness ploy, it was eye opening for me to read my journal from 10 years ago and see NO DIFFERENCE in our relationship. I mean none! That blew my mind. All the things I tried and all the learning and growth for me over a decade did absolutely nothing in this relationship
.
While moving my things into boxes I would come across items that would remind me of my past pains. It would confirm I was going the only direction I could to heal. Understanding it was time to stop the madness.
The years of wanting to do the right thing for the family. trying to get through each day. My H would overreact then the next day he would act like nothing ever happened, we would all be friends again. I would try not to live in the past , let it go. he would be nice, get me back in a place where he felt he could do it again.
While he worked it was not as bad. After 5 years of him on Disability no one to think about but himself, it was too much.
All the N behaviors were magnified 100X. With age and health problems it only gets worse.
He made the decision to not let me come to Dallas.
He wanted to come here by himself, leaviing our Daughter too. His brother would wonder why he would give up his family like that. You read about the N they are willing to leave with no emotion. He thought he would start over agian leaving us with no concern how we would survive.
One day he would say how wonderful it would be for me if I could transfer, then the next day he would tell me not to go, he didn't want me to bother HIS family.
This allowed me to leave without looking back. I knew he was going to do it to us. I just got out before him. CA is too expensive to live there. I learned once I got here, He got a lump sum of money and never told me.
he also was getting money from my D, he wanted her to stay so he could keep her income. It was all about money for him. I was tolerable while he needed my income. I think now once he got his settlement and thought he could get his brother to help him here, he didn't need me. How sad.
I hope he ejoyed the money, I never saw a dime of it. I bet he will expect me to give him support too.
Life goes on. Im glad to be where Im at. OR
I'm sorry if I used the "should's" no one wants someone to tell them what they should be doing. I guess it's my own mind changing, telling me for so long, love, understanding, balance, was so lacking in my life.
That anyone would be normal or should to want this in their life.
Long I wish you the best and you are still my hero.
-
I get it now how I am responsible for living my life and making the decisions. If I don't make the decisions, bad things will happen because I am not rowing my boat, just drifting wherever other people's currents take me. If I row, I might be rowing in the wrong direction. For a while. Until I decide to go in another direction. Even if I make a terrible mistake and row in the absolute wrong direction for a while, I can just turn around and go the right way. I might even learn something along the way. :) Doing almost anything intentionally is better than doing nothing or drifting at other peoples' whims, even when it turns out to be the worng thing. It is hard for me to describe, but I get it.
I would agree that you do "get it now". It's like you had a terrible fear of making mistakes, but life is full of mistakes, that's what we learn from ;). So allow yourself to make a few mistakes, it's the only way to LIVE.
LM
-
Hi all. Its been several days since I posted, that a long time for me. I've been confused for the last few days. Maybe typing it out here will help me figure out what is going on or get over it.
I've been looking for houses to rent. It's tough because by the time I found out about them, many are already rented! There must be a housing shortage around here. The first couple of place I looked at were alright, but kind of old and dingy. I've been feeling that I didn't want to stay in the house I'm in now with my wife because of too much hate and anger associated with it. But, then I started getting angry. Why do I have be the one to move out? Why can't I make her move out? Yes, the adult me knows why, because I can only make decisions for my own life, not anyone else's. These feelings were coming from the 3yo inside me, though, so that explanation didn't help. I realized that I do like this house after all. It is not overly large, but feels open and spacious. All of my things are here. My daughter is here. I don't want to live somewhere dark and closed in. I have enough of that feeling as it is. I don't want to have to give up the things I will be giving up by moving out. I know that I can't live in the same house as my wife right now, though. My adrenaline kicks in and I start getting angry after I get in the car to come home. Evenings and nights are the hardest times for me. When I'm at work I feel energized and happy. When I'm at home, I feel nervious and waiting for the other shoe to drop like it has all these years.
In addition to feeling ambivalent about moving out, there is the frustratingly slow pace of the house search. Plus, I am questioning again. It would be easy if my wife "fit" in some category that I could point to and say "See, this is recognized by others as a problem." To me it looks like some of NPD and some of BPD, but not any of the overt, obvious traits. I question whether I am "just being too sensitive." I question whether it is really *me* with these traits and I am projecting them onto my wife. Every time I read a description of NPD or BPD, I start saying, "Wait, I do that some, maybe this is really me." My brain knows better, but the fear comes anyway. I think back to the times when I was reacting to my wife and I did do some of the things described. However, I am not happy about it and have worked to get out of that way of acting because I believe it was wrong of me. Doesn't that indicate I am not NPD or BPD? So why am I still afraid? I know it is covert verbal and emotional abuse and hard to spot by others. I know it is crazy-making. How do I get un-crazy? I am afraid of moving out and living on my own and taking care of the everyday things. I have done these things perfectly well for at least 20 years without any problems. Why do I feel so overwhelmed and afraid.
I'm so tired of coming here to post and moping and whining. Why is it so hard for me to just be happy? I have good days a lot anymore, but that makes the down days seem even worse. Like the good is right there, but I just can't keep hold of it. I had another rough night with only 2-1/2 hours of sleep. This time I woke up at 1:30AM and couldn't get back to sleep. I journaled for several hours, but that didn't help, just occupied me for a while. I wonder if I some form of PTSD, but again I don't fit the usual profile. I read the description of verbal abuse in Evans' book and it fits me to a "t" but I still question whether I have exaggerated what happened. I used to think I was a strong decisive person, but I seem to wrestle with even the simplest decisions anymore. I called for an appointment with a psychiatrist to at least get something to help me sleep. Maybe if there is something else going on, they can help with that. I had to jump through some insurance hoops, but it will be covered. I'll try to setup the actual appointment tomorrow. At least 3 weeks wait to get in and see them! In the meantime, I am taking antihistamines at night to help me sleep. I don't want to do that more than 2-3 nights in a row to avoid problems.
I have an appointment with my new counselor on Monday, so I am looking forward to that. I talked with my real estate agent last night after looking at a pretty nice house. She has been divorced a little over a year and has had similar experiences with God and taking the high road throughout. That really lifted my spirits and helped me feel more connected.
I wrote above about feeling overwhelmed. I think that is it. I'm not numbing out or supressing it any longer. This is what it feel like to be married to my wife. Lonely and overwhelmed by trying to make sense out of irrationality, denial, and contradictory statements. My ability to deal with emotions has been overwhelmed for many years, not just in this relationship, but all the way back from my childhood. I'm just more aware of it and not avoiding it any longer. It feel like crap! Also, when I'm in this state I am more vulnerable to verbal, emotional, and even phsyical attacks. It makes sense why I was bullied at school. I was too overwhelmed to adequately defend myself. That is why I need to get my own place. Somewhere safe where I can just feel the overwhelm and loneliness without having to be ready to protect myself from attack at any time. I get it! That is why I didn't try to leave before. I wasn't in a safe place to heal and I was too overwhelmed to try to leave without more strength. Catch-22. Being overwhelmed is also why I am having such a hard time putting together a narrative that I really believe in. My history makes sense in my head, but I'm afraid to trust it because I am still in the midst of the problem. Therefore, I am not healthy yet, so I can't trust myself. I'm looking for something more concrete outside of myself to base the decision and choice to move out on. I suppose I just need to take a leap of faith to move out and trust that things will turn out OK, even if I make a mistake. My fear is that I may end up somewhere worse if I make a mistake and I'm not sure I will have the strength to get out of that then. This fear supposes that I am alone and there is no one to help. That is a memory from my childhood, when it was true. It is not true now. I am finding my family of choice. I am an adult and have the ability to make good forward-looking adult decisions and do what I need to do in order to achieve my goals.
Well, I do feel better having recognized this. I guess with so many years of unresolved stuff, I need to cough these hairballs up somewhere. Lucky you to share in this. :? "See" you tomorrow.
-
longthread, I mean longpost, I mean longtire ;), have you considered renting a small little apartment on a short-term lease? It wouldn't tie you into anything long-term and would give you some space. You touched on a lot in this last post. I think this fear is an important topic for you to explore. I have to admit that I can't totally relate to where you are coming from because even as a child I had a very strong connection to God so I never felt alone. He was always there and He was a great Father.
As far as the family home, if you were to get divorced, do you really think you would want to live there? I mean all the memories and what kind of new start in life is that? Things may seem like they are dark and gloomy now but you got to trust God that there is a bright future ahead. Well you don't have to trust Him but it sure makes life easier.
You now recognize that you had problems even before your wife came into the picture. In my opinion neither of you were in a position to help the other grow. I really suggest longtire that you don't try to make this decision based on and about how bad her problems are. I don't think you'll be happy in the end if you do. I mean this is about you, right? What you have to do for yourself.
LM
-
Longtire,
First, just some practical information--you should be able to call your primary care physician and explain what you are going through, and he or she should be able to give you a prescription for sleep meds. You shouldn't need a psych to do that. I have used them for years, but needed them non-stop for the year after H left. You need sleep to think clearly and you will not be able to make any good decisions if you are sleep deprived.
Next, your living situation. I agree with LM that to begin with, an apartment (probably with 2 BR's so you can have your daughter there and able to bring your cat) with just a short-term lease is probably the way to go. You will find that being in your own space, knowing that you will not come home to the constant tension and anxiety will help you more than you know. I sobbed for days when I had to put my beautiful home up for sale, but by the time I had packed everything up, I was ready to go. I moved here and really had no energy for the first 3-4 months to do anything but unpack the necessities. Eventually, though my energy grew and I started getting interested and then excited about making this space my own. I had to buy a home because I had the 2 kids, 2 dogs and 3 cats to have a home for, but if it had been just me with a cat, I would definitely have opted for something smaller with no maintenance until I had my feet more firmly planted. Find something that has a sunny patio or some feature that allows you a pleasant place to sit and reflect. You need time to rebuild your energy and really figure out how you want to proceed.
I'm keeping you in my prayers and hoping that you can find the peace you so desperately deserve.
((((((((longtire/thread/post)))))))))))))
Brigid
-
Hi longtire,
It sucks to be the one who has to move out. I had to, when I decided to leave my first marriage. Boy did I resent it. I had to live with my N-sister and then my boss (because I couldn't stand my sister). There was a severe rental shortage where I lived. When I went to look at a place, there were already 30 people there competing for it. Somehow, I was chosen by a landlord to rent a cute little cottage and I was so happy there. Don't lose hope. keep looking. You will be glad you did in the long run.
{{{ longtire }}}
bunny
-
Hi Longtire:
How do I get un-crazy?
When you find out, please let me know. :D :D
This situation is similar to your past. You felt unloved, overwhelmed and alone. You married a woman and feel unloved, overwhelmed and alone. Right?
No wonder the wounds of the past are opening up and driving you batty!
The thing is Longtire, you survived the past. You grew up. You're not batty (completely, yet :D , just kidding), and....you're actually wayyyy ahead of where you were because you are able to see things from an adult perspective (which as a child, would have been impossible), right?
What if you ARE accurate and not crazy after all?? Your feelings are telling you that you are not loved. The thoughts of changing the situation are many and overwhelming but you can live through it! Maybe you're afraid that you'll be MORE alone when you go?
I thought that too. From my experience, I was pleasantly surprised. I was greatly relieved when my X finally left. I asked him to leave, so it is a different situation, but I felt much like you....unloved, overwhelmed and alone. It was such a relief not to have to deal with him any more. Not to have to shovel his junk away from me all the time.
I stayed in the matrimonial home and there were a lot of memories and it was hard. I would have moved, in a minute but I stayed there for the kids. I wanted their lives disrupted as little as possible. They lost their parents, as a unit, but at least they didn't lose their home, their friends, their school, their neighbourhood, etc. I was lucky that my X was reasonable enough to work things out with but I gotta say....it felt very empty when he left (even though we were all miserable when he was there).
Maybe we even miss misery when it leaves because it's such a drastic change?? :? :shock:
Anyway......I understand your frustration and fears about looking for a place. Here's what helps me (part of my decision making formula):
1. Think of the worst possible thing that can happen.
2. Accept it.
3. Make a plan for it.
4. And forget it because the chances of the worst possible thing happening are just about zilch.
Still.....at least if you think of the worst and it happens, at least you'll have thought about it once before and have a plan for it.
!. So.......you find a place and the worst thing that could happen is that you hate it, can't stand it, are totally unhappy there, right?
2. Fine. Decide now that you won't die if that happens. After all, it's just a place and it doesn't have to be permanent, does it? So ok, you can live in this not so great place, if you have to, because you know it won't last forever and because you know it will get you away from a relationship in which you feel unloved, overwhelmed and alone. At least it will be your own place and you won't have to be in such a relationship any more.
3. The plan. You can simply keep looking for a better place, after that. In the mean time, you can make that not so great place as comfy and homey as possible. You can focus on other things in your life besides the place in which you live. You can go out more and become a social butterfly. You can join activities and spend more time living than worrying about where you lay your head at night. You can easily live through such a not so great place. You don't HAVE to hate it and you can find a better place.
4. Forget it all because the chances are much higher that you will find a fairly nice place, or at least, an ok place and be content.
Best of luck, Longtire. Glad you're seeing your new counsellor soon and hope you will get to a GP and get a sleep med because (sorry forgot who said it....but they're right...)....you need your sleep to function at your peek and to avoid potentially feeling worse.
GFN
-
Thanks LM, Brigid, bunny and lurkers. I really don't know where I would be emotionally right now without support from the people here. It really makes a big, big difference for me.
For some reason around here I can get a rental house bigger than an apartment for less money!? I would prefer this extra phsycial space inside the house and out so I don't have to worry about noise or neighbors sharing a wall. It would feel more "mine" than a unit of apartments. Apparently, the trick is to find a house and rent it quickly, before anyone else does. I am willing to work harder on this short term to get what I want in the longterm without settling for what is easily available. I'm really tired of settling for things in my life right now. :evil: I have leased, bought, cleaned, moved, furnished, etc. many times in the past. I am confident I can and am handling this aspect of the situation fine. That really isn't the main issue.
The main problem these days is that I feel emotionally overwhelmed most of the time. I'm not sure how much of this is "memory" of how I felt overwhelmed as a kid and how much may be due to depleted emotional resources at the moment due to years of stress and accelerated by recent changes. I feel like I don't have enough time to get everything done, feel and accept my feelings, and get enough rest. I don't know how to process overwhelm. I am getting a lot better at processing my emotions by welcoming them in, making room for them, appreciating them, valuing them, and connecting them to my internal family. How do I process overwhelm? Sometimes I shift in and out of this because of the emotional work I do or the realizations I have. Sometimes, it just seems to shift on its own, for no apparent reason. It is hard to make this post, because I'm afraid this means that there really is something fundamentally wrong with me.
I don't know who I am anymore. I have changed so much over the last year and especially the last few months, that I'm not sure "who" I am or what I believe anymore. I can see that this is a byproduct of growing and changes in the way I think about myself, relationships, God, and everything else. I've never been more healthy in my life, but I question and second guess everything now. I guess before I had self-confidence, even if it was false or based on incorrect assumptions. Now I feel like I have no confidence. I can make decisions, but feel like I'm being selfish by recognizing what is best for me and taking steps to get there.
OK, everytime I post like this here I get insights like just now. I have seen myself as my wife's "fixer" or the "fixer" of this relationship for so long that I don't recognize just plain old me anymore. Without that role to guide me, I've forgotten how to interpret things. I have been questioning and resisting and feeling overwhelmed because I am NOT following that script anymore. It will take some time to learn to recognize myself and feel comfortable with myself again. I've been the other way for a long time now. I can see that a lot of the changes that I've been making has been dropping ideas, feelings, thoughts, and beliefs that were not me. How is it a realization like this can change your whole outlook on things? Wow! I've just gone from excruciating discomfort to relief in just a few moments. :D :D :D
I still feel somewhat guilty about making choices that are best for me, but not what my wife wants. What do I owe her? Maybe that is not the right question. How do I want to relate to her from now on? Not as a project or a distraction from my own feelings, that's for sure! I'll keep thinking about this and see what feelings come up for me.
-
Hey longtire
One of the most reliable traps for me is when it takes almost all my energy for me to decide to make a change, and then I encounter a bunch of obstacles the second I begin working on that change.
Makes me want to crawl under the bed and just stay there, forever.
Hang in there... and good luck. When you get near moving day, PM me about moving with kitties. I've moved transcontinentally and transatlantically with mine; there are some easy tricks that can really save wear and tear on both the cat and you.
hugs
Stormchild
-
Hi longtire,
You have already paid off any debt to your wife.
bunny
-
I am feeling much better tonight. I don't have things figured out by a long shot, but recognizing that part of me was still holding onto that "fixing" obligation feeling and beating myself up about it really helped. At first I did it to help her and fulfill my spousal obligations to be strong when I could. More recently I realized that she chose what she was doing and had no intention of changing no matter what I did. Not only do I not have to do that anymore. Even more importantly, I don't have to even TRY to do that anymore. I don't have to want to do it or need to do it.
This place and the people here are a miracle. I don't know of anywhere else (I've been looking!) where I can either rant unintelligibly or write my deepest thoughts and feelings and be supported and understood in both cases. Where no matter what I write there are always two or three people who chime in and say "Yes, I understand, I've had that too!" I can't really express how grateful I am to be a part of this.
One last image for today. I thought I had already dealt with this issue and the co-dependence. And I had, to the extent I could see it. Then this pops up again and I take another step in that area. I got the image of wearing emotional leg shackles. I can only step as far forward with my right foot as the placement of my left foot and the length of the shackles allows. Then I step forward with my left foot, again only as far as the shackles allow. I can't see or even comprehend the next step until have have taken this current one. Some times I take a step in one area with my right foot and then take a step in a completely different area with my left foot. Despite the negative connotations of the shackles, this is a comforting image to me. I don't have to solve all the problems right now (little coey voice in my ear), I just have to take the next, small step.
-
longtire, melody beattie had a really good analogy like your shackles.
driving at night through fog.
she was scared to death until she realized that if she kept a reasonable speed her headlights would light up enough of the road in front for her to keep going, and they would always reach just far enough in front for her to keep going.
worked for me too, i've driven home in fog and rain sometimes at 15 mph for hours, and i got there.
the big thing is not to give up because it's raining and dark
-
Argh! My wife has been wanting to talk to me over the last several nights. I can always tell, somehow. She actually sits down while I am in the same room at the same time and watches TV, but somehow I still feel her attention on me. I don't ask what is up anymore. If she wants to talk she can talk.
She waited until my daughter had gone out and asked me if she could talk about something. I said OK, but with trepidation. I was eating and wish I had asked her to wait until I was finished. I'll remember that boundary next time. So, I finished eating while I was talking with her.
She wanted to know if I was willing to go back to small talk like we had been doing up until several weeks ago. I told her that I stopped talking because I was tired of being the only one trying to start a conversation. She told me that it was her impression that I stopped talking first. She went on to say that both points of view were correct and nobody had to give up their point of view. (Why does she always say this when she is in the wrong? On some level she must be aware.) Just for the record, I posted on here recently how I had given up trying to have a conversation since I realized I was the only one offering any information. She actually has been in the house more recently. Prior to the last couple of weeks she was always gone except for a few hours before I got home for work and to sleep.
She told me again that she wanted to just chit chat and have more fun and then one day when she is happy enough she will be willing to work on our issues again. I asked her "how many times have I heard that?" (Many, many promises of working things out someday!) She gave that sickly smile where she is pissed off, but tries to smile anyway. She didn't answer. She told me that she felt uncomfortable when she tried to talk with me and I didn't say much back. I said, "Welcome to my world, that's what I've gone through for the last 17 years!" (So much for me not bringing up the past. :( )
I also told her that I hate this relationship. I'm not interested in pretending nothing is wrong when we have such huge problems. I told her that I want a relationship where we can have true intimacy and talk with each other. To have emotional closeness and physical and sexual contact. She ignored that and asked the question again. I asked her if she was looking for my permission to talk. I pointed out once again that it is her decision to talk or not. I will not take responsibility for your behavior.
She kept asking several times if I was willing to talk small talk like that. I asked her if she thought she heard me say I was not willing. She said no, but that since I stopped talking first she wasn't sure. I told her that I was tired of being blamed for her actions. If she wants to talk she can talk. If she doesn't want to talk she doesn't have to talk. It is her choice. She asked again. I told her that it would depend on the instance. I am not willing to give a blanket commitment to talk to you any time and any way you want. I have also not made any blanket decision to not talk to you. You can talk to me if you want, and I'll tell you if I don't want to talk for whatever reason.
Sorry for the changing points of view. I'm so frustrated I could spit. Not just about this, but about feeling so stuck right now. See my next immediate post. BTW, this conversation is not my proudest moment, but at least I did not put up with any of the bullshit pressure I would have in the past. She can go around all day thinking I'm wrong and that I caused all this. That is no different from any other day over the last 17 years!
-
longtire,
Good God man, she's lucky you were so nice to her. I'd be tempted to scream at her to get the f*#* out of the room before I really lose it. She seems determined to push your buttons. She manage to push mine too with her asinine request.. :evil:
bunny
-
I feel so stuck right now. So much has been churning around in my mind and my feelings. I found a lease house I like, but haven't been able to bring myself to apply or put the deposit down on it. My mind can appreicate that it means I'm just not ready for it yet. However, my feelings and difficulty sleeping tell me to do something right now, dammit!!!! I'm so tired of feeling like I'm stuck between two worlds that I don't really exist in either one. However, I will NOT go back to being depressive or numbing out. I will stick with my feelings this time no matter how unconfortable I am. I am not even tempted to give that up again!
I used to be able to make decisions easily. I would have told you that was one of my strengths! These days I question everything from my state of mind (not unwarranted right now), to my goodness (however defined) as a human being, to my logic, to whether I am just being selfish, to whether I am insane and totally out of touch with reality. I can make a decision, but then within hours or days make the exact opposite decision. And feel equally strongly about both decisions. I wonder whether my seratonin is out of whack. The only other time I felt this desparate and discombobulated was when I really turned depressed. I'm not depressed right now and definitely want to keep it that way.
I also saw my new counselor for the first time today. She seems nice, but could hardly get a word in edgewise with longthread in the room. :) (At least I still have my unique sense of humor.) I already have a positive transference with her, she feels like a wise older sister. I went over why I left the last T and that I wanted a supportive, validating response from her, but still want to hear the truth. I covered as much of my history as I was able in such a short period of time. :) I realize that she can't give me an answer about what to do, no one else can, but I wonder if I shouldn't give counseling more time to help me make a good decision. Then I wonder if this is just a convenient way to avoid making any decision at all.
On one hand I recognize that I am in a poor state of mind to make a major decision about separating. On the other I'm not sure how I will get to a better state of mind while I am still here. Recognizing my current state of monumental indecision, I believe that it would be best to wait before making a decision. But, then I feel like I've failed and let everyone here down. I feel like I've failed to do what I need to do to take care of myself. In any event, I will call my personal doctor tomorrow to get something to help me sleep. There seems to be a serious shortage of psychiatrists in this town! I'll keep trying to get a psychiatrist appointment in the meantime. If I'm not just being "over-sensitive" and my seratonin really is out of whack then I can get something to help that. Does anyone have experience with herbal remedies like St. John's Wart :) or similar? I've been seriously thinking about trying something, but don't want to make things worse.
I wish I knew what to do to tip the balance here. Tonight I'm going to re-read my affirmations and remind myself what a healthy relationship looks like. I'm also going to list positives and negatives about leaving and see if the balance has tipped on that for me. All support, pity, experience, insight, etc. gratefully accepted. At least I don't feel alone with these things. I'm very grateful to have you all here and my friends in the flesh here in my life.
-
Hey Long
You're doing the best you can, this stuff takes time and energy. Not to worry, we're cheering for you.
St. John's Wort works, it acts like an SSRI (such as Prozac) which means that you have to avoid taking other SSRIs or MAO inhibitors with it. there are other interactions as well. It is definitely a medicinal herb, and you do need to be mindful when using it.
Responses are variable. In fact I bet you get several differing reports on it if others here use it. It is an idiosyncratic herb. But usually effective.
Theanine, which is in green tea (and in black tea to a lesser extent), is also a powerful stress-reducer. I know less about its interactions; there is less in the literature at this point. But it's pretty benign stuff if you get it from green tea, so you may want to start there instead of SJW.
Three cups of strong green tea a day should mellow you out a bit, and you can drink it an hour before bedtime and not be kept awake. [If you find it's a bit 'fishy' tasting for you, try adding some honey or sugar.]
You will need to watch for sleepiness with theanine, but it's easy to drink less tea or not brew it as long.
I like that your new therapist is female, this may help a lot since so much pain has come your way from another female. Us gals here on the board are all pulling for you too.
Don't worry about talking a lot. You have to download a lot of stuff to a new t in the first few sessions. They understand.
PS PM me if you are thinking about using SJW, I have some publications on its interactions and I can send you some links. You need to be well informed if you take this herb... it really is strong medicine.
PSS Yes, I am an herbal medicine enthusiast... kind of a hobby.
-
Longtire,
I know you are really struggling with this right now. A separation need not necessarily be permanent. That is why it's called a separation rather than a divorce. You need some breathing room so you can sort out your thoughts, desires, plans for the future, whatever, without the stress of the relationship continually hanging over you. Trust me, having been through this twice now, I know that you will feel more calm and sleep better if you just have some time to yourself. I think if you stop looking at moving out as a drop dead decision, but just as a decision for now, it might be easier for you. Nothing is set in stone until the final papers are signed, and you have a long way to go before that happens. I have some acquaintances who have been separated for 9 months and no one has filed for divorce yet.
I apologize if I sound pushy, but you sound like you need a bit of a nudge to get you unstuck. My prayers are still going your way.
Brigid
-
Hi Longtire. Does the lease house feel right, in a Feng Shui kinda way?
Being able to make decisions easily is not necessarily a valuable skill. (I am in control, I can make decisions easily, send the troops in.)
These days I question everything from my state of mind (not unwarranted right now), to my goodness (however defined) as a human being, to my logic, to whether I am just being selfish, to whether I am insane and totally out of touch with reality. I can make a decision, but then within hours or days make the exact opposite decision. And feel equally strongly about both decisions.
This sounds pretty good to me. Sounds as though you’re really getting to the heart of something. And holding those opposing decisions in your head? That’s good. Seeing all the greys, questioning everything. The really good part about this state of mind is that it doesn’t last. It’s the process of finding out what you really think/feel/want. Sure it’s out of control, but what’s wrong with being out of control once in a while? This is a huge period of change for you. Expect some fear and confusion, you wouldn’t be human otherwise! Embrace the uncertainty and fear. You don’t sound like you’re becoming schizophrenic to me and that’s probably what would happen if you went off the edge. You know the difference between what’s in your head and what’s in external reality? You’re okay.
Isn’t it great to celebrate our weaknesses, our humanity, sometimes?
And you can celebrate this strong statement. I'm not depressed right now and definitely want to keep it that way.
Such a life-full statement! It’s wonderful.
Then I wonder if this is just a convenient way to avoid making any decision at all.
So you can see yourself in 5 years time still living with S? Do you think you’d be able to avoid the decision for as long as you live? Please don’t be so hard on yourself. Take a day or two off from making decisions. It’s your call. You’re in charge.
But, then I feel like I've failed and let everyone here down. I feel like I've failed to do what I need to do to take care of myself.
Whoah! :shock: Let us down? You don’t owe us anything. We don’t expect anything. Any one of us could disappear right now and what would it matter?
Fear of failure. If you fear failure too much, you’ll never do anything. “If you haven’t made any mistakes lately, you’re doing something wrong.”
What are you really afraid of? Moving out and not being able to move back? Choosing the wrong house to live in?
Eat the elephant in bite-size pieces. So what if you don’t take care of yourself? I bet you can eat, sleep and get to work. Or can you? What’s the worse thing you can imagine happening to you? Tell us the details, where the devil is! take care
-
Okay I really must go and ….do something useful…like…(vague image of nothingness appears later to be filled with trips to supermarket and the stuff that makes life what it is, fending off the knowledge that I have to find employment...)
But I just thought about you moving Longtire and wanted to say: you’ll have your internet access set up? So that IF you feel alone and/or lonely and want to connect (in all senses), you can? That would be paramount to me. Above food!
You’re never alone with a phone line and sometimes, angels come down them and into your room. True. Portia
-
Thinking of you Longtire:
It's almost like a fog, you're in, eh? Hard to see you're way clear?
Take your time. The fog will lift.
As others have said, you don't havvvve to make any decisions today.
Hope tomorrow will be better for you.
GFN
-
You’re never alone with a phone line and sometimes, angels come down them and into your room. True.
Absolutely wonderful!
Yes yes yes.
-
Wow! What a difference a day makes. I have been getting sleep again this week thanks to benadryl. I have an appointment with my doctor to get some real sleeping meds and talk about St. John's Wort. I also had two cups of green tea today. :)
I talked to the realtor tonight and will get her the checks tomorrow to get the house. Yes Portia, it feels like the right place. I don't remember whether I mentioned it before, but the realtor and I got to talking at this house. She told me how she had gotten divorced about a year ago and had grown closer to God throughout the whole process. I told her about my situation and we hugged goodbye. The whole situation just feels right. Plus, with all the other houses going so fast, this house has been sitting for a while with no obvious problems.
The fog metaphor really fits. I have been waiting to see to the end of the road so I could be sure I was going in the right direction. That will never happen. I can see far enough ahead to take the next step, so I'll do that. Then, I'll take the next step after that when I can see it. I don't know where this leads and that is scary. In the past I at least had an idea of where I was going, even if that idea turned out to be wrong. Maybe I don't need the security of a placeholder vision anymore and am able to tolerate the fear and uncertainty now? It is also freeing, though, in that *I* don't have to determine every single thing about my life by sheer force of will anymore. That was exhausting.
Another piece came out of the exchange with my wife last night. I realized that I didn't handle it perfectly, but I did stick to my guns and didn't give in this time. I can be imperfect and that is OK. I can be myself and that is OK. It may not satisfy other people, but I can actually LIVE my life this way. Along the way I may meet people who actually do like me if I'm acting like myself.
I had lunch with a friend today and he basically kept telling me over and over in different ways that it is never going to be a happy thing to leave no matter what I do or how long I wait. It is going to be tough no matter what. There is no magic solution. I can do it now or I can do it later. It will never be easy or perfect. I will regret it and be glad I did it. I will remember it forever.
Underlying it all is the wisdom and support from you here. I'm afraid to think where I might be right now if I hadn't found (been guided to) this place. I don't have to tell any you what it means to have wonderful human beings around you to share the journey. I feel more peaceful and happy tonight than I have in a long time. Thank you for all your help in my journey so far. There is more, but I that is all I'm going to share right now.
-
Thinking of you long.
it's almost 11, Ive got to go.
I just submitted my child custody forms on line. It is so much better than dealing with the paper forms.
My Husband thinks my D is coming back in 10 days asking when he can expect her. I don't reply.
It's late, just wanted to let you know, you sound like you are moving forward. Your friend is correct it will never be easy.
Doing it looking at it as a way to happy days. You will find with out the emotional roller coaster, you will be able to deal with what ever comes your way. I feel so numb about it all. I move one step at a time and have all the support from here to get me moving forward.
I had to write a statement to the judge and I kept in mind your words about what I had to say was important not what the N does or says. Thanks it was a magical thing for me.
I'm tired good nite OR
-
Longtire,
I wish you well as you take this next step. Your friend is right--there never would be a perfect time. There will always be pain and it is something YOU will remember forever. What will be interesting to observe, is how your wife reacts to your leaving. When I saw how totally emotionless my husband was when he left with his daughter and I in tears, and how he has managed to remain so throughout the separation, I realized how empty the man is. As my heart and our daughter's heart shattered into a million pieces, his remained hard as stone. The separation gets easier when you can really see them for who they are and you know that is not someone with whom you would want to spend the rest of your life.
Finding a closer relationship to God has been a blessing for me too. " If He leads you to it, He'll lead you through it." I have felt that almost from the beginning. Work on that relationship for now and it will help you find peace.
God bless,
Brigid
-
Just want to say, Longtire:
Listen to your sweet, smart, wise, kind, sister Brigid.
She knows what she's talking about!
((((((Longtire)))))))
Walking now-- you are!! Slowly and steadily! :D
Good for you man!!
GFN
-
Yea green tea! It may take a few cups for you to feel it, Long, but I promise it helps.
Good idea to talk to the doc about SJW, with all the interactions it has. Well done Long! Good luck with the house. And I'm glad your realtor was able to understand... sorry she's been through it, but glad she understands.
((((((((((Longtire & kitty))))))))))
-
Well, I gave the application and deposit checks to the realtor. She was supposed to give them to the leasing agent this afternoon. It is out of my hands now. One more baby step. I feel lighter than I have in a long time. :) I actually feel happy thinking about the future! :D
One of the things I didn't get around to in my post last night is about spirituality. I just finished reading "The Highly Sensitive Person." The last section talks about HSP's and Soul and Spirituality. The author makes the point that HSP's tend to be very deeply spiritual but also tend to be very individualistic in their spirituality. Her comment was that relatively few follow a fundamentalist path or even a "traditional" religious path. They tend to look for the deeper meanings under religious writings and beliefs. She also found that HSP's tend to be more likely to experience vivid dreams/visions, which really made me think about the Dreams thread going on right now.
Anyway, I introduced this because it is another example of me finding information just after I have already come to the same conclusion in my life. (Happens to me all the time.) Separating from my wife "feels" right, even though it goes against Christian doctrine. This is surprising too because I usually approach these things from a "thinking" point of view. Go back in this thread a bit to see my agonizing struggles over this!
My thinking :) goes like this. Everyone is different. God is smart enough to realize this. :) God approaches different people in different ways as appropriate. A one size fits all approach does not make sense in light of this. Fear of Hell does not really motivate me. Been there, done that. (Can you relate?) What really gets to me is feeling unconditionally loved. THAT breaks right on through for me where threats of pain and suffering do not. I don't believe it is a coincidence that has been my personal experience of God so far. Whenever the pain and suffering was being brought up, it was always by another human, well-meaning I'm sure.
Now I admit, this could be immaturity on my part, "the rules don't apply to me kind of stuff." But, I feel something there. This doesn't feel like a rejection of something to me. Actually, in some ways it feels like an acceptance of a heavier burden. To go this way means I may lose out on understanding and "popular" support from other Christians. It means I may not be able to find any guidance from others. But, I feel something there. Separating feels like the "right" thing to do, not just for me but in a higher sense. I don't know where it will lead. For now I will follow my path and feel ambivalent about my ambivalence.
-
longtire,
if god really wanted complete and total uniformity in this world, there would be only one kind of flower, one kind of grass, one kind of tree, one human language, and all humans would have only one kind of hair, eye, and skin color, and all the women would look alike, and so would all the men.
have you ever read C.S. Lewis' 'Mere Christianity"? He was a remarkable thinker, and on the subject of divorce he pointed out that while some denominations take a strong stand against it and others are less strict, all regard it as essentially a form of surgery, more than the simple dissolution of an inconvenient arrangement. I am paraphrasing, but that's the gist.
You have hardly been frivolous in what you are doing. You've tried and thought and striven and thought and suffered and thought for years... nobody could be less frivolous or impulsive about this decision than you have been. You have shown the same degree of seriousness in this regard as Lewis describes... this for you has been a last resort. Nobody could rationally ask more of you.
hang in there, longtire. God knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows when we've tried our very best. He knows you have.
((((((((((longtire))))))))))
-
longtire,
Okay I'm not a Christian so this is from an outside viewpoint. Who cares what other Christians think. They aren't the ones who send you to heaven or hell. They are just some people also sinning and backsliding and doing whatever. Their opinions are trivial. God also does not strike people with lightning bolts when they break the rules. I've eaten lots of 'trayfe' (unkosher, highly taboo food). My mom, a good Jew, would be deeply saddened and horrified by my blasphemy. God seems okay with it, as I didn't even get a stomach ache. In fact I enjoyed it. I don't know if this makes sense but it's my logic.
bunny
-
One aside: I do not eat trayfe when my mom or religious Jews are around. I don't see any reason to upset them when it's unnecessary. Not because I think eating this food is wrong. It's more an etiquette thing.
bunny
-
Cool thinking Longtire (congrads on the house :D )
Everyone is different. God is smart enough to realize this. God approaches different people in different ways as appropriate. A one size fits all approach does not make sense in light of this.
I agree! (Except I’m not sure if God is external or internal, or if that even matters.)
Fear of Hell does not really motivate me. Been there, done that. (Can you relate?)
Oh yes.
What really gets to me is feeling unconditionally loved. THAT breaks right on through for me where threats of pain and suffering do not. I don't believe it is a coincidence that has been my personal experience of God so far. Whenever the pain and suffering was being brought up, it was always by another human, well-meaning I'm sure.
Question: are you saying you feel God’s unconditional love? Or are you saying that you see that suffering is a result of contact with other humans? Or both? (I’m wondering if you feel the love as well as the suffering I guess.)
Now I admit, this could be immaturity on my part, "the rules don't apply to me kind of stuff."
I’m not sure that would be immature (and what does immature mean anyway?). Most rules are human-made (God’s rules, or nature’s rules, appear pretty rigid – don’t eat = die kinda thing)…..so maybe just some rules don’t apply to you? Nothing wrong with that is there? Hey to some people I’m a terrible sinner and in some countries I would be dead by now for breaking the rules! True. Stoned to death. Wouldn’t be here.
But, I feel something there. This doesn't feel like a rejection of something to me. Actually, in some ways it feels like an acceptance of a heavier burden. To go this way means I may lose out on understanding and "popular" support from other Christians. It means I may not be able to find any guidance from others. But, I feel something there. Separating feels like the "right" thing to do, not just for me but in a higher sense. I don't know where it will lead. For now I will follow my path and feel ambivalent about my ambivalence.
Grasping uncertainty to your heart is a way to freedom, from what I’ve read. It makes sense to me. The more possibilities we can ‘see’, the deeper the understanding of the basic ‘truths’ perhaps. Do I know what I mean here? Not sure. Maybe it’s back to pattern-recognition! Could be. But if we talk to certain other people, interpret how they live as being rather closed-off, insular, contained, ‘safe’….like they’ve decided what life is about and they’ve settled on their decision…where’s their life-force of curiosity, of awe, of wonder, of learning? To be open to more (to be ambivalent) seems to me to be *living*. Boredom, stagnation of the spirit, is a killer. As is fear. Presumably people live with their decisions, hang on to their bigotries, their negative absolute ideas, because they’re afraid of something? :?
Is it a Buddhist thing? – when the pupil is ready the teacher will appear. I’m sure you will be able to find guidance from other people Longtire. You won’t be alone! (Christ was pretty much alone, on the cross. Except of course he could talk to his Dad. That must have been a comfort, knowing it was for a purpose.) The world is full of people who have ideas to share. Some may not be Christians. Maybe you’ll find guidance from people who aren’t Christians? That might be part of your new ambivalence! Now I feel I’m too cheeky, too challenging, so I’ll stop. (Hey and in case it looks like I think you should talk to me, forget it, I know nothing - and I know that at least.)
Isn’t it funny how there’s a ‘para’graph in the middle of ‘separate’? I like how words do that sometimes, hold meanings we can impose on them. I was looking at your use of the word separate Longtire. Bye for now, P
-
Bunny, I eat Kosher sometimes because I like it! It seems very ‘clean’ food to me, humus with chickpeas and pine nuts, yummy too. Is it bad of me to eat kosher I wonder, while eating away (joke). Thought: maybe your mom secretly eats trayfe. Maybe she would like to be able to be upset by your blasphemy? I never was one for sticking to the rules, or putting up with charades to make other peoples’ lives easier, mainly because it doesn’t (make their lives easier), those other people usually have their own secret motivations that are just looking for a good scapegoat etc. But then the status-quo has always worried me, stagnation and so on. My problem/gift, who knows. Pass the matzos, I love it :D (with smoked ham :shock: ). P
-
Just a quickie for now. I got up this morning and there was a note from my wife saying "I hope you have a wonderful and blessed day!" :shock: You know, I don't know what this means. I can't read her mind. However, my mind still interprets it as a clumsy way to try to get a response from me. No communication whatsoever since our last talk and now this. I just shake my head.
I saw my doctor this morning and got Rx to sleep. I'm looking forward to sleeping very well tonight and no worries about longterm Benadryl use. :)
-
My guess would be she's trying to hook you back with more promises of caring and attention that she has no intention of keeping.
it's not uncommon for them to become attentive when they suddenly realize you're fed up with being taken for granted and treated like an appliance. the attentiveness will last just as long as it takes to get you back in line.
i'm a cynic, longtire, but a pretty good synonym for cynicism is experience.
hang in there,
Storm
-
I agree with Storm. I also wonder (coz I can be suspicious too) what she has planned for the day? Maybe she's doing a 'good' thing to counter-balance a 'bad' thing? Whatever, it's about her state of mind, not yours Longtire. Stay as cool as you are 8) Portia
-
Portia, My mother doesn't secretly eat trayfe.
Longtire, I forgot to congratulate you on putting down a deposit. Good work! I agree with Stormchild that your wife is just trying to confuse you with kindness, because she senses you have changed rather dramatically, and she no longer has the advantage.
bunny
-
:?: :!: Did I say something offensive bunny??? I just thought from your repy I might have. It's possible. But I don't know. Sheeeeesh sorry sorry if I did. Not intended. portia
-
P- It did take me aback a bit. It is a bit odd to say that about my mother, after I just said that she would be horrified by my eating unkosher food. In fact I think she would throw up if she ever found out that she ate pork. That's all.
bunny
-
It seems to me that if different denominations vary widely in their treatment of an issue such as divorce, there can be no consensus, no "one truth" that we all have to follow. Maybe that sounds rather self-serving, but I think it's very telling. If (mostly) men and (very occasionally) women who make it their business to think about these things can't come up with an answer, how is the individual supposed to do anything but follow his or her conscience?
The best definition of chastity I ever heard is "having the body in the soul's keeping." I think the same goes for divorce. If you take the commitment seriously, you will not leave it lightly or as a matter of mere self-indulgence (say, to satisfy lust). You will not use the other person as an object of convenience. To me, that is the yardstick of "Christian" conduct--to act with a consciousness of others, whether or not they maintain a consciousness of you. I do not believe God in any sense would demand that we roast ourselves slowly over the fire of doctrinal purity.
I would say the challenge for you, Longtire, is not in deciding to leave your wife but in retaining consciousness of her as a person, even when she hurts you. The easy way is to hate her, objectify her, and not care what this does to her. The hard way is to be as kind as you can without sacrificing yourself to her.
Anyway, just one person's opinion.
-
Wow Daylily!
To me, that is the yardstick of "Christian" conduct--to act with a consciousness of others, whether or not they maintain a consciousness of you. I do not believe God in any sense would demand that we roast ourselves slowly over the fire of doctrinal purity.
Sure sounds like an accurate sum-up to me! Glad you're posting!
Longtire:
Hope you will have the most comfortable, sweet, refreshing sleep tonight!
And for the record.....she can wish you the most wonderful/blessed day all she likes, in a note. It's her actions and actual words that speak for themselves. So far, they don't seem to endorse the same wish, do they?
Good shaking of head Long!! 8) Keep it shook up and wide awake(day time hours as needed). No falling for instantaneously impossible and highly unlikely dreams.
GFN
-
Oh yeah... I forgot to add...
start the countdown, she's going to ask you for money again.
-
have you ever read C.S. Lewis' 'Mere Christianity"? He was a remarkable thinker, and on the subject of divorce he pointed out that while some denominations take a strong stand against it and others are less strict, all regard it as essentially a form of surgery, more than the simple dissolution of an inconvenient arrangement. I am paraphrasing, but that's the gist.
I think that I would enjoy reading more of C.S. Lewis' works. Honestly, I've got quite a list ahead of this, but it is on the list now. The only work of his I'm familiar is "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe." Myabe I can find a compendium or box set of his works at the used bookstore? Hmmm......
You have hardly been frivolous in what you are doing. You've tried and thought and striven and thought and suffered and thought for years... nobody could be less frivolous or impulsive about this decision than you have been. You have shown the same degree of seriousness in this regard as Lewis describes... this for you has been a last resort. Nobody could rationally ask more of you.
hang in there, longtire. God knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows when we've tried our very best. He knows you have.
Thanks for this reminder. This has been very difficult and has required me to grow hugely just to even get to this point. This is NOT the easy way out for me. The easy way is depression or numbness, but fortunately some part of me just won't accept that.
I realized something else as I was thinking about your post. When someone honestly apologizes to me and tells me they are sorry, I am able to forgive easily and move on. I don't dwell on it because it actually ended up bringing us closer together and demonstrating that this person cares enough about me to care how I feel and want things to be right between us. I literally forget about it. It is gone. It just really hit me that is apology and forgiveness working together the way they are supposed to.
I don't have this with my wife. I have pursued my own forgiveness of her behavior on my own to get past these things. She has offered tainted apologies in the past either literally through clenched teeth, "I'm sorry, not get over it!" or witholding, "I'm sorry if I did anything that hurt you, " or "I don't agree that I did these things, but I apologize if you felt hurt." I have been thinking that there is something wrong with me because I have not been able to move beyond these things. However, with everyone else it is gone and forgotten when they genuinely apologize. (Yes, part of it could be because she's closer, being my wife and all, but I don't think that is it.) I think I haven't been able to move because this has never been resolved!
Of course, I don't need her cooperation to move beyond this. I have been holding onto it because I have been hoping for a real reconciliation. I realize that she is no consciously aware of most of her hurtful words and actions. It is unlikely that will ever change and I'm not likely to see a genuine apology or reconciliation over these things. This seems like a strange thing to grieve over to me, but I am grieving the loss of reconciliation.
What really gets to me is feeling unconditionally loved. THAT breaks right on through for me where threats of pain and suffering do not. I don't believe it is a coincidence that has been my personal experience of God so far. Whenever the pain and suffering was being brought up, it was always by another human, well-meaning I'm sure.
Question: are you saying you feel God’s unconditional love? Or are you saying that you see that suffering is a result of contact with other humans? Or both? (I’m wondering if you feel the love as well as the suffering I guess.)
I wrote this confusingly. Yes, I feel the unconditional love from my personal, internal, relationship to God. Hearing that I will suffer if I am not perfectly following what is written in the bible (rather than from relationship with God) comes from people. Sometimes contact with these people provides suffering as well. :wink:
As for what my wife is doing.... She is talking all nice today like nothing ever happened or it all got resolved somehow in her mind the other day. She seems to be pursuing what she wants, which is to have a light, fun relationship where we tell each other about our day. That's fine with me. She is entitled to go for what she wants. Unfortunately, her avoiding the issues in our relationship does not move me to a place of being OK with the current situation. I am still moving in the direction I need to move for my own life. That seems to be the opposite direction right now.
Longtire, I forgot to congratulate you on putting down a deposit. Good work! I agree with Stormchild that your wife is just trying to confuse you with kindness, because she senses you have changed rather dramatically, and she no longer has the advantage.
The only advantage she had is that I thought I had to appease her to get her to care about me. You're right, that is gone. If she doesn't like me for who I really am, not her projections, then she doesn't like me.
bunny, I used to work near a kosher deli and ate there once a week. I miss it. :(
Oh yeah... I forgot to add...
start the countdown, she's going to ask you for money again.
You're such a kidder! :) Should we have a pool to determine how long until she asks and for how much?
Time to end this post I think. My last statement smacked a bit of sarcasm. :twisted:
-
Hi daylily, I wanted to reply to your post separately since it is so dense with meaning. Reminds me of LM's posts.
It seems to me that if different denominations vary widely in their treatment of an issue such as divorce, there can be no consensus, no "one truth" that we all have to follow. Maybe that sounds rather self-serving, but I think it's very telling. If (mostly) men and (very occasionally) women who make it their business to think about these things can't come up with an answer, how is the individual supposed to do anything but follow his or her conscience?
This is the most concise explanation of this I've seen yet. When it comes down to only "bad" choices, I don't believe that there is always only ever one single "right" answer. If staying is always the right answer, then why don't things turn out "right" in that "bad" situation. Holding on through a rough patch to get the rewards on the other side is one thing. That involves struggle and change on both people's part. Holding on in a "bad" situation without change is stagnation, not faith.
The best definition of chastity I ever heard is "having the body in the soul's keeping." I think the same goes for divorce. If you take the commitment seriously, you will not leave it lightly or as a matter of mere self-indulgence (say, to satisfy lust). You will not use the other person as an object of convenience. To me, that is the yardstick of "Christian" conduct--to act with a consciousness of others, whether or not they maintain a consciousness of you. I do not believe God in any sense would demand that we roast ourselves slowly over the fire of doctrinal purity.
I am not claiming this is my primary motivation, by any means: I don't think it is fair to my wife to be "stuck with me" when I don't appreciate her behavior, keep trying to get her to ackowledge it and insist on being treated the way I want to be treated. I'm not happy being with her, I don't love her, I don't appreciate her due to the hurt and frustration I feel. Maybe someone else can. Maybe they can help her grow. I can't.
My daughter spends very little time at home. OK she's 16 with a car, so that is not surprising. Still, I believe that a lot of it is not wanting to be around such a hostile and tense atmosphere. It isn't good for her either.
As for satisfying lust, as good as that sounds, :twisted: I need serious time to recover, re-learn who I am and just get used to living and being without a romantic relationship. There is no woman on the side here and won't be for some time even after a divorce. After that, I will not get into a romantic relationship without being friends first and taking my time. I have at least learned that lesson from this experience!
I would say the challenge for you, Longtire, is not in deciding to leave your wife but in retaining consciousness of her as a person, even when she hurts you. The easy way is to hate her, objectify her, and not care what this does to her. The hard way is to be as kind as you can without sacrificing yourself to her.
Yes, I can see that she has reasons (fear) for doing what she does. Thank God the forgiveness work I have already done has drained most of my anger and resentment. I no longer see her as evil or bad. I see her as a fellow human being who was damaged even worse than I was growing up, through no fault of her own and not by her choice. However, as an adult, I still hold her responsible for her words and behavior. Just like me, there is no ability and nothing that keeps her from being the next Hitler or the next Mother Teresa. It is only our choices that determine where we fall in this range, not our abilities. We are capable of both ends of the spectrum. After all, I have not been a saint in this relationship. I have had anger toward her for many, many years. Now I am truly taking care of myself, so I generally don't need to feel anger anymore. These days I feel more sadness and grief.
Just to point out, I am separating at this time. Though I don't see a reconciliation being likely, I have not asked for a divorce.
-
Sorry longtire, I’m barging in on your thread again.
Bunny, I reacted to what I imagined I heard you saying, which I interpreted as you knowing something for sure about someone else (your mom). I wanted to question whether you could view it differently. I was totally off-thread and off topic and questioning you when it’s not necessarily appropriate or relevant. (Okay in my head I was continuing on the ‘living with uncertainty’ topic, but that’s irrelevant. That was about Longtire, not you.)
I do that sometimes, go way off the field. I don’t always follow rules of etiquette, on the board or elsewhere (I’m a proverbial pain, or an idiot, or evil, to others, I imagine). I think you like to have rules/boundaries (whatever) and we’re different in some ways. I think I should respect and accept those differences. (No jokes, this is too serious to me. Old stuff in play.) I’ll try my best not to question you again like that (other people yes, maybe, but not you). That’s my take on what I did and how I’ll try to change.
-
Hi everyone:
I no longer see her as evil or bad. I see her as a fellow human being who was damaged even worse than I was growing up, through no fault of her own and not by her choice. However, as an adult, I still hold her responsible for her words and behavior. Just like me, there is no ability and nothing that keeps her from being the next Hitler or the next Mother Teresa. It is only our choices that determine where we fall in this range, not our abilities. We are capable of both ends of the spectrum.
Longtire: This is such a reasonable, fair, adult attitude! A speaker re. divorce I heard once said: "You will finally be at peace when you can honestly say: 'I am sorry for everything I've ever done that hurt you and I forgive you for everything you've ever done that hurt me'. Until then, working toward this is a good goal."
You're already most of the way there, Long. The saddness will pass when your grieving is over. Separation/Divorce/Reconcilliation will be decided later. The good thing is that you are taking care of you now. That's not Mother Teresa or Hitlerish, it's just necessary to get you on the road to getting the most out of life and giving your best back.
Hey Portia: (budding into your budding in, sorry, sorry...not resisting tempation again--slap self :shock: ).
I do that sometimes, go way off the field. I don’t always follow rules of etiquette, on the board or elsewhere (I’m a proverbial pain, or an idiot, or evil, to others, I imagine).
How dare you do that!! The rest of us are perfect--what happened to you?? (I love saying that when people make mistakes.....that...or...."Oh!!! You're the onnnnnnnnnnly one that's evvvvver done that!!! The rest of us are perfect!!"
GFN
-
Longtire,
You wrote,
Time to end this post I think. My last statement smacked a bit of sarcasm.
Does that mean I can't post anymore? :(
mudpup
-
Thanks Portia.
bunny
-
Dear Longtire,
Your post about apology and forgiveness struck a chord with me, and I wanted to thank you for what you wrote.
Firstly, when you said that your wife's apologies could not lead to a reconciliation, because of the form they usually took, I was reminded of an article I read which said that an N's apologies, if listened to carefully, are not usually a real apology, expressing regret for something said or done, but in fact are an attempt to justify whatever it was. My ex's 'apologies' were usually like this, OR took the form of 'that wasn't my intention,' or 'I was only teasing.'
Secondly,what you wrote is true...in the absence of a genuine apology, or even of an awareness on the part of the N that they have actually done something 'wrong,' we tend to fill in the gaps for them. We assume that they are 'sorry,' because we would be, in the same situation; and then we assume that they have made the step in their minds between being sorry and doing something to rectify the situation. Looking back, I think I did this a lot with my ex;once he said the magic word 'Sorry,' I rushed to rehabilitate my ideal image of him, by completing all the necessary mental steps myself. He himself had to do little or nothing;I did the work for him every time.
Thanks Longtire,
Sincerely,
Lara.
-
Well, I'm feeling better today. Still tired, but stronger after a week of almost normal sleep. My energy level is much higher, I have more motivation, and most important of I all, I can think as straight as I ever did! :idea: I was really feeling panicked that something was really out of whack. I guess sleep deprivation is funny that way. Whew! :oops: Still waiting for the final word on the house, but the leasing agent told me that everything looks great!
I do that sometimes, go way off the field. I don’t always follow rules of etiquette, on the board or elsewhere (I’m a proverbial pain, or an idiot, or evil, to others, I imagine).
Portia, I think it is normal for people to follow the points of a conversation that interest them most. Especially female people. :P I think it is actually posting in this format here that is "unnatural." Besides, I don't remember anyone saying that you were breaking any rules. What rules are those anyway? I'm not aware of any rules like that here.
Longtire: This is such a reasonable, fair, adult attitude! A speaker re. divorce I heard once said: "You will finally be at peace when you can honestly say: 'I am sorry for everything I've ever done that hurt you and I forgive you for everything you've ever done that hurt me'. Until then, working toward this is a good goal."
GFN, I am not there yet, but still working toward that. I am trying to determine my faults in this relationship to confess them, change them and apologize specifically. After all, I don't want to repeat them in the future. I am less concerned about finishing forgiveness toward my wife right now. I have done enough for this point, and can pick that back up when I've done more of my own work. That whole baby steps, walking with leg shackles thing.
Time to end this post I think. My last statement smacked a bit of sarcasm.
Does that mean I can't post anymore? :(
Mudpuppy, you can post and be as sarcastic all you want! I am more concered about my own sarcasm as I have used it for a long time as a defense against being hurt so much by my wife. I am trying to be more aware of it when it occurs and to wonder what is underneath it. Hurt, usually. I am also practicing saying what I really want to say in place of the sarcasm. I still appreciate sarcasm though, both my own and others'. :twisted:
Firstly, when you said that your wife's apologies could not lead to a reconciliation, because of the form they usually took, I was reminded of an article I read which said that an N's apologies, if listened to carefully, are not usually a real apology, expressing regret for something said or done, but in fact are an attempt to justify whatever it was. My ex's 'apologies' were usually like this, OR took the form of 'that wasn't my intention,' or 'I was only teasing.'
Lara, another of her "famous" quotes is that "I had good intentions, so I couldn't have done anything wrong!" As if this were the most logical thing in the world and I was just too dense to understand. Hmmm, maybe that quote is a candidate for the most N sayings thread. :)
Good night, interesting dreams, Peace and Love.
-
Hi Longtire:
Just a minor point re your working toward forgiving your wife, self, and re appogizing etc:
I have done enough for this point, and can pick that back up when I've done more of my own work. That whole baby steps, walking with leg shackles thing.
I was trying to give you credit for the work you have done so far and encouragement that you are well on your way there. I was trying to let you know that it seems like you have done and are doing a good job so far, not direct you to work on this, or advise you in any way. Did I mess up??
GFN
-
GFN,
I am going to jump in and speak for Longtire as an outside observer.
I was trying to let you know that it seems like you have done and are doing a good job so far, not direct you to work on this, or advise you in any way. Did I mess up??
I don't think you messed up in any way and I don't think he felt you were pushing him to do something he's not ready to do. You were just stating that forgiveness is something to strive for. He was just responding that it will take time for him to get to that part of the equation. I think that is true for all of us. There are so many factors that enter into how the divorce came about in the first place that vary drastically from relationship to relationship and how the separation and divorce is handled also play a major part in the whole forgiving and forgetting.
In one of the few discussions I have had with my husband since our separation, when I was demonstrating some anger regarding the lies he told or whatever, he just looked at me and said, "but I told you I was sorry." My question would have to be, "What part of what you did are you sorry for?" There was so much, but he would never have understood that. If I spent two hours listing all the things he should be sorry for, he would tune me out after the first 10 seconds and say the affair is really the only thing that he did wrong and he truly felt justified even with that, because, after all, he was just trying to find happiness.
I guess my point is, and I don't think its rocket science, that it will depend on how deep the hurt is as to how long it will take for forgiveness to come, if ever. But it is certainly something to strive for and can be a huge healing agent and relief from a very heavy burden.
Sorry if I just insinuated myself, but I didn't want you to think you said something or did something wrong, GFN. IMO at least you did not.
Brigid
-
GFN, I was going to write a long reply, but ditto what Brigid said. :) I was merely pointing out where I am right now in forgiving my wife as well as admitting my own mistakes and errors in our relationship. No comment intended on your statements. (Which I agree with, BTW.)
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh yeah... I forgot to add...
start the countdown, she's going to ask you for money again.
Stormchild, you win! She asked if I had thought more about getting belated Christmas money last night. I told her that I hadn't really thought about it (true!). She didn't say anything else about it. I didn't even have time to setup the betting pool here! :twisted: (Maybe sarcasm is not such a bad response after all....)
-
Hi all:
Brigid:
Sorry if I just insinuated myself, but I didn't want you to think you said something or did something wrong, GFN. IMO at least you did not.
Thanks Brigid. You really are sweet to say so.
I'm not really feeling as if I messed up...yet. I'm just asking because I just want to know if Longtire felt that I was directing him, and if so, then I must have messed up somewhat, by not saying what I was trying to say correctly. That's all.
I guess my point is, and I don't think its rocket science, that it will depend on how deep the hurt is as to how long it will take for forgiveness to come, if ever.
I think of forgiveness as a choice, my choice. I decide to forgive. I don't need appologies (although.....they certainly help me to consider trusting the person again....depending on a number of other factors). Often times there never will be any appologies, so if I wait around for them, I'll be waiting forever. I can decide to forgive if I want to. No time limits.
Forgiveness.....is for me. (not so much for the other person/event). I don't like carrying anger and resentment around inside me, it feels crappy, and I try to get rid of it....express it....release it. I always feel better when I let go of these feelings. Holding onto them, just seems self-destructive. They are powerful feelings that can become the focus of my emotional status, if I'm not careful.
Once they are mostly gone, once I no longer feel a whole lot of anger toward, or resent a person or event, I find it is easier to decide to forgive.
How deep the person/event hurt me? Aren't they all deep? Don't they all cause pain and upset my life? If I try to measure which person/event hurt the most....do I then say......it was too deep so I will always feel this huge amount of anger and resentment and therefore will never be able to forgive?
For me.......I must work at releasing those feelings, reducing their hold, and then make a decision on it. It's for my own well-being, mostly. Forgiving brings a feeling of a weight being lifted. It does not mean that I forgive the behaviour, attitude, intention, of anyone. It just means I forgive the person for not being perfect. I don't forget their actions. I don't trust that they won't act that way again.....unless they do much more to indicate so. But I do decide to forgive people and it helps me when I do.
That's just me. Sorry to rant along here. It might be completely weird sounding. It's just what works for me.
GFN
-
Stormchild, you win! She asked if I had thought more about getting belated Christmas money last night. I told her that I hadn't really thought about it (true!). She didn't say anything else about it. I didn't even have time to setup the betting pool here! :twisted: (Maybe sarcasm is not such a bad response after all....)
Actually, Long, I wasn't really joking, just cynically worldweary so it sounded that way.
They become kind of pathetically transparent, after a while. She really seems only to be interested in $, so whenever she makes nice on you, it's probably about $.
I'm very very sorry.
-
GFN,
For me.......I must work at releasing those feelings, reducing their hold, and then make a decision on it. It's for my own well-being, mostly. Forgiving brings a feeling of a weight being lifted. It does not mean that I forgive the behaviour, attitude, intention, of anyone. It just means I forgive the person for not being perfect.
You are oh, so right and I completely agree with you--in theory. Unfortunately, my personality doesn't always allow for that and try as I might, sometimes I just can't let go. I know this is a flaw in my character and certainly something I need to work on. But I go back to my original statement of it depends on how deep the hurt is as to how long or how easily I can reach a point of forgiveness.
I know that the lack of forgiveness creates anxiety and continues to give the transgressor power over me. It takes energy away from moving forward and feeling better and healing and... and... and. Pragmatically I know all these things. I talk to my T about it almost weekly. But . . . and this is a HUGE but, the level to which my H deceived, hurt, diminished, crushed, humiliated, etc., etc., me is something I will not soon get past. I think part of it comes from being so angry at myself for not seeing what was going on, but mainly it is because of how much I trusted him and how highly I thought of him only to find out it was all a lie. I felt like I had entered the Twilight Zone and my H had been replaced with some alien being.
This is a long-winded answer to a simple point that you are right and I strive to believe as you do and I work on that daily.
Brigid
-
Brigid,
There is no flaw in your character (IMO). It is actually not wise or prudent to forgive an abuser who is still actively causing trouble in one's life. That isn't the time to do it. Maybe you can forgive his squeezing the toothpaste from the top of the tube but that's about it right now. And some things are unforgivable; only God can handle that level of forgiveness. You don't have to. You can accept him as a sick person who did the best he could to function with his severe psychiatric problems. And it was very damaging to all concerned and we hope he gets help and leaves us alone. Maybe that's as close to forgiveness as anyone could hope for.
take care,
bunny
-
Bunny,
Thank you for forgiving me my inability to forgive my H. I still always go back to the Wendy Cope poem:
I can't forgive you.
Even if I could, you wouldn't pardon me for seeing through you.
And yet I can't cure myself of love
Of who I thought you were before I knew you.
She could have crawled into my heart and felt what is there when she wrote that.
Brigid
-
DEAR Brigid,
I feel for you so much. You have been through a MUCH worse time than I have, but I think those two points of Wendy Cope's poem are the real killers:
1. the difficulty in forgiving
2. the difficulty in 'curing ourselves of love' for the person we thought was in the relationship with us.
Sending you a huge hug,
Lara.
-
Oh boy! I'm having a good day! First of all I have been getting caught up on sleep. I slept all the way through the night last night! Between detaching from my wife's stuff, learning more about the situation every day (reading SWOE now), and getting enough sleep, the world looks like a great place again! More importantly, I feel like myself again.
Plus, I got the house! I'm going in this afternoon to take care of all the paperwork and pick up the keys. I will move out by this weekend. Now, I just have a "few" things to do to get ready: clean the house, pack my stuff, tell my wife and daughter, shop for appliances, move, unpack.... Good thing I've got my energy back, I'm going to need it! :D :D :D :D :D
-
:D :D :D
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great news. So happy for you!
daylily
-
I'm so happy for you, Longtire :D
Hurrraaaaay :!: :!: :!:
D.R.
-
Yee-HAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
-
Longtire,
Way to go brother :!: :!:
Blessings on the new house.
((((((Longtire)))))))
Brigid
-
longtire,
Mazel tov! I hope and believe you'll be very happy in your new abode.
bunny
-
Plus, I got the house! :D
best of good fortune longtire. ive been wanting to give you a hug for awhile this seems like a time {{{{{{{longtire}}}}}}}
carve out your own sweet space for you.
[/i]
-
Long,
I just now had some time to read your post, I kinda got choked up about your new place. SOOOOO proud of your brave efforts YOU are my hero.
How is your daughter doing? Im sure she will see a change in you and will enjoy her visits more with a happier you.
Great Job and have fun shopping for your new place.
OR
-
Longtire: glad to hear you're movin' on. Here's to freedom! (I don't drink, so I will hoist a big glass of soy milk up in your honor!)
-
Wow! So many posts, it has taken me a while to catch up. Thank you all for the support. You here are my safety net and my lifeline to sanity. ((((all))))
I signed the papers and got the keys. I called to setup the main utilities today. I plan to move in Saturday if I can get everything packed and ready by then. If not, I can push to Sunday morning. I'm happy and excited about moving. I have even been having decorating thoughts about this new place. Somehow where I live now has never really felt like "my" place. The new place does already.
I am down tonight, though, after telling my daughter. :cry: That's a hard thing to do. I told her that the current situation was affecting my health and I needed space and time to get healthy and happy again. I told her that all the money stuff is covered and no one will be hurt that way. I told her that I am not angry and am not doing this to hurt anyone, but that I do need to do it. I told her that I expected that she would get to spend equal time with her mother and I, but that she's old enough to make up her own mind. I told her that she doesn't have to make any decisions on that for a while, no pressure. After that she said she needed some space and went to her boyfriend's house for the rest of the evening. Before she left she told me that she knew that I was not being rash and that I needed to do what I have to do to take care of myself. I told her thank you, but that when you feel angry or sad or anything else you need to tell me about it. Don't keep it inside or bad things happen to you.
Despite the order of this post, I did tell my wife first. She was surprised and shocked that this was happening. She did mention that I had said I wouldn't get a divorce because God hates divorce. (That was on one of those awful panic attack reaction mood swings. :() I told her this was a separation at this point and that my physical reactions to the situation don't allow me to stay. She said that she was upset that I had done all this financial work and figuring without talking with her. :shock: She said that several times and in several ways. I didn't even feel like taking the bait there. She then said that she realizes that this is about my feelings and she doesn't take it personally. She said that she has grown tremendously and wishes me well. (Funny how I never hear about these things until there is a big problem!) She did ask for a written list of the things I was planning to take before they leave. I was planning to do this anyway. She also seemed to agree to the other items on sharing time with our daughter, she doesn't change locks and I don't come by without checking first, I leave written record of anything I take, etc. I thought "Who is this?" Maybe she has changed, maybe its hoovering? It doesn't matter, I still need the time and space. I am committed to moving now.
I also talked with my good friend/neighbor. I hadn't been talking as much with her lately to give my wife more access to her, thinking it might help the situation. (This friend has great common sense and is very forthright. Reminds me a lot of people here!) She said that is what she told my wife. That I was not coming over to give my wife space to be with the friend because my wife doesn't comprehend that this person can be friends with us both while refusing to take sides. It is a gift to be understood and accepted by friends. :) I promised not to be such a stranger with this friend any longer and we talked for a while. Definitely a bright spot on the evening.
I feel exhausted and relieved. The WORST part of this whole thing was having to tell my daughter. I hate it when what I do hurts her, even though I know it is necessary. Everything else is just working details and plain old hard work. Another bright spot! The leasing company had the house professionally cleaned after being showed. (I even saw them cleaning when I stopped by to check utility connections.) One less thing for me to have to do. :)
-
Longtire,
Congratulations on continuing to move forward with your plan. I know it could not have been easy to explain your leaving to your daughter. We have daughters about the same age, so I know how sensitive they are at this age.
I know you intend to stay a very active part of her life and support her in every way possible. If you and your wife can co-parent reasonably, your daughter will be fine. This is a very busy time of life for her as she begins the process of leaving the nest. Try your best to keep your stuff out of her life and just continue to be there for her when she needs to talk and actively demonstrate your involvement in her life.
I wish had someone to co-parent with (well, maybe I'm glad in this case that I don't, but there are times it would be nice to have a father to discuss things with). I'm constantly conflicted about raging at him about not being involved (I have never actually done this) and being glad he's not. It's so hard to know what is best for the kids.
Have fun making your place your own. I'm convinced you will find peace and finally be able to evaluate what you want to do with your life.
God bless,
Brigid
-
Longtire,
I just wanted to let you know that though our circumstances are very different, your continued growth and courage have been an inspiration to me. Lately, when I start to panic that it's "too late" to really change anything in my life, I think about you.
I imagine it was very hard to tell your daughter. She sounds like a very grounded, thoughtful adolescent, and she sounds truly concerned about your well-being. All those things speak well of her, and of your relationship with her. I hope you're proud of both of you.
I hope you fill these rooms with the people and things you love--some of which you may not even know about yet.
Best,
daylily
-
OK Long You want a list of why you would be a hero.
1. I love the way you talk about doing the right thing even when the right thing is not being done to you. YOU ARE MY HERO
2. You talk about your daughter with such love and understanding.
She must be so lucky to have you as a Dad.
I told her that all the money stuff is covered and no one will be hurt that way. I told her that I am not angry and am not doing this to hurt anyone, but that I do need to do it. I told her that I expected that she would get to spend equal time with her mother and I, but that she's old enough to make up her own mind. I told her that she doesn't have to make any decisions on that for a while, no pressure.
YOU ARE MY HERO
3. Long, you see the things people do and people in general as gifts and find a bright spot in the negative.
You are such a Hero to me. You have such wonderful gifts to share with us all here and to give them to strangers is such a blessing to all.
We all have gifts to share if we just dig down in our hearts a little.
I guess there are so many reasons you could be anyones hero but you wanted me to tell you specifics so I hope this will help you understand where Im coming from when I tell you "You are my Hero"
It is a gift to be understood and accepted by friends.
Definitely a bright spot on the evening.
I need to leave to pick up my D from Cheer Camp.
talk later OR
-
OR, you have me all choked up right now. I guess that I have not really valued these things about myself because I have tended to have people in my life who did not value these things in me (or didn't say so, anyway). My parents. My Wife. For most of my life I saw these traits as weaknesses. Somehow I had to find a way to have a good relationship with people despite these things that I do like wanting to do the "Right" thing or being aware. I finally realized recently that I accepted being around people who did not value these things about me because that was what I was used to.
I need to surround myself with people (like you) who not only see these things about me, but actually value me and these things about me. To be honest, my daughter has told me that she feels lucky to have a dad like me who talks about deep stuff sometimes and teaches her how to stand up for herself and be confident. I still feel like I am more fortunate to have HER in MY life.
I have had a shocking realization about myself over the past week or so. I love people! I'm a people lover! I never thought I would believe that about myself. I always thought of myself as scared and shy. (Maybe with good reason looking at the people around me in the past.) But I'm not shy, I'm outgoing. I'm not afraid of people, I enjoy talking with them and getting to know them. I am an introvert which means that I get my recharge in my alone time, but I still love being with people. I do get over stimulated in some environments, but I am learning how to recognize and do what I can to minimze that. Who would have thought?
-
Long, dear brother,
You love GOOD people ... and it can take a long time to discover that, if you haven't been around very many of them. Best of all, it looks as though you're managing to raise one. Yea!
Glad I saw 'you' at lunch yesterday (see Anything thread). 'You' looked a little tired, around the eyes, but very kind.
((((((((Longtire, daughter, and kitty))))))))
-
Hi Longtire,
I imagine you might be a little tired after all that emotional work with your daughter and your wife. Sometimes I thing emotional/spiritual fatigue is more exhausting than physical.
I wish you the very best Longtire. I do hope you are able to surround yourself with people that value who you are - a sensitive, brave, loving, thoughtful man.
Take care and know my thoughts are with you.
(((((Longtire)))))
Chutzbagirl
-
I want to thank everyone for their support through making this decision and the move. I will be moving Saturday, so took today off to get everything coordinated and packed. I will still be posting today and tomorrow morning as time allows. I may be without internet for a few days after that until I hooked up. I can always go in to work to post if I need to. The support and understanding and validation I get here is invaluable to me.
I took my daughter over to see the new place and she picked out her room. She already has a layout with furniture in mind. Now she just needs to pick colors and styles, etc. I also told her that she could choose the theme for her bathroom for style and color, etc. I hope that will help this new place feel like her home more. I also gave her the key to the new place so she has more ownership.
She told me that she probably will want to take it slow in spending the night there since it is a new situation. She also said that she would like to try NOT having a set schedule of where she "should" (bad, bad word) be. She has friends in similar circumstances who say things like "I have to go to my mom's today" and she doesn't want to have to feel like that about the situation. I told her that I understand and that I don't want to put any pressure on her. I pointed out that she doesn't even have a bed yet, so it would be difficult to spend the night there until we get her some of those things anyway.
I talked with her last night about what it will be like when she gets back from her trip. I pointed out that I, the cat, and some furniture, etc. would not be here when she gets back. Hopefully that will help set her expectations and soften the blow at that point. She said that she wants to come over Monday and see how things are looking. I said great, but it will probably be a tremendous mess! She laughed and agreed. I told her that she could bring her boyfriend over as well, if she felt like it. I reiterated that she can call me ANY time, ANY day, work or not. I also told her that she is welcome to be at the new house any time she feels like it. Just to let me know if she has anyone else over when I'm not there.
These days my mantra is "Feel the fear and do it anyway!" I realized that I am moving to this place to have a safe, healing environment. I'm spending more money than I had originally planned to set it up, but it will truly be my place, for me. That is stepping out on faith quite a bit for me. I have been having all sorts of doubts so I'm going to put them down here so I don't have to keep carrying them around.
What if I spend all this money and we get back together soon? Unlikely (getting beack together soon, spending is highly likely!).
What if we do divorce and something I do now is held against me? Like what?
What if my wife has really changed this time, I have just blown it? Hoovering, see below.
What if this causes adjustment problems for my daughter? The I'll deal with them with her and help her. Plus, I expect I will be much more rested and centered and effective myself.
What if my wife raids the joint checking? Then I will direct deposit to my account and conver enough bills that we both still end up with the same "allowance" as now.
What if my wife bad mouths me to our daughter (trying to protect her from me, of course)? I will talk with my daughter and tell her the truth and reality of the situation without bad mouthing her mother back.
What if my daughter doesn't end up spending much time with because she can't make the transition or is trying to "take care" of her mother by spending more time with her? I will talk with her and let her know that I want to spend more time with me. I will tell her that she doesn't need to take care of either of her parents, that we take care of her.
I feel better getting those things off my back. I got another note this morning from my wife:
I truly hope that everything goes well for you. Good luck with the move. I'll be praying for you to have peace & comfort in God. God bless you during this time. S
Who wrote this note? Is this just hoovering since I'm moving away from her? Is it possible she could be saying her genuine feelings about me, but only when its safe because I'm at least several miles away? Is she really talking about/to herself? Is she just trying to look good? Is she trying to salve her conscience? This kind of thing confuses me. I'm not wavering, but it drives me nuts to never be able to know what is really going on in her head. I have asked her to communicate primarily through EMail. That gives me time to digest and react before I need to respond. Phone calls are OK for time sensitive things, but EMail for anything else. Do you think this note is an attempt to get around that? Forced communication that she won't stop? Hmmm, I suspect a little bit of each of these may be the case. I expect there will be quite a bit of EMails for a while until the practical details of this separation get worked out. I will have to hold my boundary on personal communications with her during this time.
A couple of other things from another EMail about working arrangements. Most were pretty mundae, but a couple of them tweaked me a bit. She told me she would pay herself $50 from our joint account if I didn't clean the bathroom before leaving. (I already planned to.) She told D that I had requested my wife not call, but EMail instead so D would know it was my request in case she noticed her mother not calling me. She asked me to do a task around the house and then said the "if you choose not to" then she would have a neighbor do it. It has been a running theme that she likes to assign me tasks to do when I am busiest. (A way to maintain a connection when I get busy and am less accessible?) I told her that I would try to do it if time permits, but if I am not able to I am OK with the neighbor doing it. (After all, I will be busy cleaning the bathroom!) I am glad that after most of this gets decided, I will not need to deal with it much anymore.
-
Longtire!
Cheers to your new abode!!! What a wonderful father you are!! You're daughter is truly lucky to have you!!
You are definately walking in a straight line now toward a better place (not just in the physical sence).
Yay!!! :D :D :D
Congratulations Longtire!!
GFN
PS: Brigid, I agree with Bunny in that you do not have a character flaw. It's just where you are right now in regard to forgiveness. I don't know if I misworded it/omitted to say that that forgiving people (not their actions) stuff is what works for me, not necessarily everyone else. And certainly I'm not at that point with all who have harmed me/my family, in my life. It's what I wish to strive for and hope to achieve, in that regard. I know it's best for my own serenity. What helps me is to try to separate people from their actions. But that's me. It is hardly possible, I agree, when they continue to abuse you and are there in your face. Later, when there is distance...it might be a better time, if that's something you want/decide. Sorry. I didn't mean to insinuate or suggest anything and I'm sorry not making all of this clear. :( :oops: It's that feet in mouth thingy again. :oops: :oops:
-
GFN,
You sweet girl. :) I never, not ever for one second thought that you were being anything but kind and helpful. Forgiveness is a wonderful thing and you are blessed to be able to offer that to your transgressors. I have hope that, in time, I will get there, too.
(((((((GFN))))))
Longtire,
I think you are handling things perfectly with your daughter. This will pay off hugely for you and your relationship with her in the future.
As far as the response from your wife goes--she doesn't seem too distraught over your leaving (maybe that's a good thing for you? :? ). Keep going, my friend, you can do way better. :wink:
BTW, take a break from the move and join us for dinner. See you at 6 :!:
Good luck this weekend.
Brigid
-
Longtire very very best wishes :D
That note? It's detaching from you I feel. It's putting a distance between herself and you. That's okay. I note she doesn't say "I'll miss you." Like I would if I cared a jot. Sorry longtire. It's just a note, it doesn't mean much at all. Maybe it's to make you feel guilty? :? but you don't :D
I'll be thinking of you tomorrow. best wishes for all of you, portia
-
Hi Longtire,
How's the move going? I think your daughter will love staying there, if she can get past the guilt of abandoning her mom. You're making it easy for her, and that's wonderful.
Your wife's note is IMO a kiss up gesture because she wants you to continue to be generou$$$ to her. If I were her, I'd communicate however I wanted if my husband were moving out. His wishes wouldn't be my top priority at that point (sorry). And on your side, you don't have to do any tasks around the house. If you wanted to keep working for your wife, you'd still be living there. Her declaration of paying HERSELF $50 to clean a bathroom is the most mercenary thing I've heard since her last cash request.
best wishes,
bunny
-
Thanks ((((((Brigid)))))
I have hope that, in time, I will get there, too.
My prayers for you in this too.
Longtire:
I must have been writing my post when you posted your latest one about the note from your wife etc.
That's great the way you're dealing with your fears! What a great example you are!!
Re: your wife:
She's making requests of you,
She asked me to do a task around the house and then said the "if you choose not to" then she would have a neighbor do it.
Making demands/threats:
She told me she would pay herself $50 from our joint account if I didn't clean the bathroom before leaving.
And wishing you well/good luck, praying and blessing you all at the same time!!
I truly hope that everything goes well for you. Good luck with the move. I'll be praying for you to have peace & comfort in God. God bless you during this time. S
Gee......no wonder it's confusing. :?
I think you're right about a little of some/most/many of those reasons you listed (re why she's doing this note thingy).
It's not working all that well, if you ask me. You're dealing with it wonderfully!! :D
She told D that I had requested my wife not call, but EMail instead so D would know it was my request in case she noticed her mother not calling me.
Huh?? For why? Seeking sympathy, maybe? This was necessary information at this time? Like D needs to know this for what reason? In case? Whatever. :roll:
Have a good move tomorrow Long!! Wishing you peace and comfort!!
GFN
-
Hey buddy,
We're all proud of your strength in pushing through the very understandable fear.
Her note? Sounds like pure saccarine self serving manipulation. Especially the last line. 'during this time' as though you will inevitably realize the dreamboat you have left and come crawling back to her.
God bless her mercenary little soul.
She told me she would pay herself $50 from our joint account if I didn't clean the bathroom before leaving.
Is she your wife or your live in maid? She ought to work for the IRS. :evil: :evil:
You are a good dad and you are handling things with your daughter perfectly.
God bless, longtire. Maybe after you move you'll have to change your username? Any suggestions anyone?
mudpup
PS. When I read your wife's actual words its like the Stepford Wives. No emotion comes through them at all. Only cold blooded manipulation.
Did you ever check her for wires or circuitry while she was snoozing?
She might have an off button. :shock: :wink: Wouldn't that be handy.
-
longtire
Congratulations!
Saying a prayer that the weather cooperates and that everything runs smoothly for you.
You're a good man. This is a new beginning for you.
Good luck.
Mia
-
Congrats mud!
If'n I were you, I'd shift any significant amount of extra funds out of that joint account fairly soon. That crack about charging you for bathroom cleanup is another telegraphed punch. What a moneyswine!
Do you have joint credit cards? Good idea to cancel them / have them put in her name only.
Watch out for this stuff, it's a classic area for retaliation.
That being said, congrats again, you are managing superbly especially where your daughter is concerned.
-
Congrats mud!
I know women think all men are alike but this is getting ridiculous.
I hope you weren't offended by the comparison longtire. :shock: :roll:
I was humbled by it. :oops:
mud
-
oh for crying out loud. Sorry about that. That will teach me to try to write to a thread too soon after reading another one.
Guys, I apologize.
-
Hey, that goof of mine reminds me of a memory problem I have ALL the TIME.
If I work with two people with the same first name and different last names, and they work together, I inevitably am talking to Dave Two, about something I'm working on with Dave One, and instead of referring to Dave One as Dave One, I call him Dave Two. Doesn't matter if it's a Dave or a Davida, I do this. Not every time, but at least once per pair of Daves or Davidas.
Does anyone know what the heck is up with that? I'd sure like to stop doing it. It's like a record skipping, but in my head. [All us antiques will know what I'm talking about.]
-
Long,
I'm so proud of your progress. You have made the big jump into a new happier life.
Your D will test the water first and telling you she needs time I would think she has already thought about it and will be fixing her room up sooner than later.
If I had the time I could have found so much more about the wonderful person I see you are. I had to go pick up my daughter from cheer camp, and didn't have much time right then.
I thought about it while I was at work that day.
I wanted to share with you how and I see so many strengths in you that you feel are a weekness.
We wrestle and struggle with ourselves because of all that we are not,when we could be happy with who we are.
Take your weekness love your weekness it will change the struggle to acceptance.
I have been under the magnifiying glass with my D.
She will focus on things now that she somehow didn't pay attention to before. She will expect me to be offended or hurt .
I just laugh tell her I like being this or that way, Its ok if I am not the best or lacking in something,I know I have flaws. At her age she believes everyone around her should be perfect and if they are not then it's embarrassing to her. (I understand the age)
I don't want her to get the Idea she can't have flaws if she screws up just get back up dust herself off and try again.
I have to be so brave for her with what is going on in my life, I have to choose the road to travel, not wonder without direction.
I want my path to stay steady so she sees even someone with as many flaws as I, can still have direction and stay on my path even when other roads appear to be tempting. Don't second guess yourself, you know what's in your heart and saying that tells me so much about the road you would take to do the right thing.
Doing the right thing is not be stupid but consider all options, know the advantages you have to make the right thing happen for you.
You said you are a people person, I believe you are because you are responsive to the needs of others. You respond with a lot of care and people you meet must see how you have intrest in what concerns them to make them feel comfortable when they are with you.
I wish you the best Long
Will write more later.
-
oh for crying out loud. Sorry about that. That will teach me to try to write to a thread too soon after reading another one.
hee hee hee. :D Am I wearing off on you too Stormy? Hee hee hee!! :D
Thinking of you Longtire and praying that all went well for your move and that you are now cozy and comfy in your new pad, busy unpacking stuff and beginning a new life.....in peace.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
GFN
-
Yea longtire
been praying for you and your d and your kitty as the move unfolds.
-
oh for crying out loud. Sorry about that. That will teach me to try to write to a thread too soon after reading another one.
hee hee hee. :D Am I wearing off on you too Stormy? Hee hee hee!! :D
Could be! Yikes! A computer virus! :D :D :D
-
Congrats mud!
I know women think all men are alike but this is getting ridiculous.
I hope you weren't offended by the comparison longtire. :shock: :roll:
I was humbled by it. :oops:
mud
Should you call me longpuppy or mudtire? :wink:
-
My vote is for mudtire. Sounds rugged and kind of useful.
How are you?
When do we get an update?
mudlongtirepup :?
-
Yes, I am alive! Thank you for all the support and posts over the last several days. Remembering that you were all out there pulling for me really kept me going when I was feeling stessed or low. I moved into my new house and really loving it. I no longer feel angry or stressed when I leave work! Speaking of work, I will have to post here during work hours for a while. I can't get internet at the house until the end of next week. :( Posting here is hard because of many interruptions. (It is work, after all!)
I have pretty much been unpacking and setting up all the new stuff I bought and haven't unpacked much of the old stuff I brought along. I didn't realize how much junk I had accumulated! I want to sell, give away or throw away at least half of it. I am into living leaner and meaner these days. "Hanging onto stuff" is not where it is at for me anymore, emotionally or physically.
It worked out well that my W and D were out of town Friday through Sunday. I took off from work Friday (my boss is very understanding) and still had to work all night Saturday to get everything unplugged and packed. I have a lot! of stuff that doesn't fit in a standard box or can't be stacked. I didn't have that many boxes, so I ended up making several runs over myself in the wee hours. I did get help from my friend and neighbor with his pickup truck for several loads, too. That helped a lot! In the end, I even had time to comply with my wife's "requests." I was glad to leave the house in a clean and neat state and felt good that my daughter would see the care I put into things. I want to her to see me acting as a mature, responsible adult.
I was good up until the point when I had taken care of everything, had been awake for 24 hours straight and had nothing to do but sit and wait for the movers. Then I started to feel really sad. The realization that this might be the last time I was in this house to actually live there. The last night in that bed. The last time to wake up in "my" room. Despite all the problems I associate with that house, I have lived there a long time and places do get into your heart. If nothing else, it is familiar and known. I cried on the way to my new house, but have felt at peace with leaving since then. Even a house or familiar place needs to mourned. I am also attached to the cat that I left ther, just not to the degree of "my" cat. I will miss seeing him everyday too. I may try to arrange some visitation or swap time with the cats when things settle down from the move.
I told the movers to let me know when they moved stuff out of the garage so I could help corral the cats. My cat was !NUTS! with all the strange hours and activity leading up to the move. Well, they started moving stuff out of the garage with the front door wide open and my cat was nowhere to be found! :shock: :shock: :shock: Of course, they finished moving and started threatening to charge me for making them wait while I was still looking for my cat. I was not happy. :evil: I had to go to the other house for the movers as well as all the new appliance deliveries. In the meantime, I asked the daughter of my neighbors to keep looking outside for my cat. Luckily, I got a call after a couple of tense hours that they found him still in the garage. He must have found a new hiding place that I didn't know about. Talk about relief. I don't know what I would do if I lost him.
My D came over Sunday night to see the new place and told me all about her trip. She seemed fine with things. She had come from being with friends after returning from the trip and had not been back home yet. I don't know if this was a problem for her or not. I got an EMail from my W yesterday morning saying that my D would like to talk to a counselor to get help with this transition. :( My W said she wanted to see the same person that did our joint counseling and that my W is still seeing despite telling us when we went in that she would not see us individually, only if we came as a couple. I'm not sure if this is my D's idea or my W's to see the same person. My W said that she would even give up her appointment next week so D can go in.
I replied back that I don't feel comfortable with that, in that it seems like a potential conflict of interest., but that I wanted to talk with my D about it first. I didn't tell her that I would like my daughter to see someone where I would consider going with her if ever needed. I do not feel comfortable going back to this counselor. I called my D twice yesterday, and she has not called back yet. Sometimes that happens for the mundane reason that she forgets to charge her phone and the battery runs out (especially around an out of town trip). Of course, in the present situation my mind fills in the blanks that my D is avoiding me because her mother told her she could and that her mother wants to send her to the same counselor because her mother has that person wrapped around her finger. Mind you, I have NO evidence to say this is the case. This is my mind jumping to conclusions. Still, my stomache has been churning since then. I will feel a lot better when I talk to my daughter. The other possibility that has me upset is that my daughter feels like she needs to act up to be "heard" but is too afraid to act up with her mother and I am the "release valve." I really don't know anything at this point, though.
Well, this seems like a "short" EMail for all the activity I've been through in the last week, but most of that has been boring packing, shopping, and unpacking. Now hopefully, I can get caught up on my reading here in another day or so. I really miss being able to come here whenever I want.
-
Yea longtire! Whew about the cat. I'd be uncomfy about yer wife finagling the daughter's therapist too.
Glad you could post from work, good that you have a kind boss.
Storm
-
Lontire: I have tears from reading the way you handled things with your daughter. This is what every daughter should get from her dad. I wish my children had a father like that. That is what they want, to call the shots, to have it be their choice when to see dad... He doesn't realize, however, that the tighter he holds onto them, the less they want to be around him. You are a good dad.
Don't get all worried about "what if's"....there will be MANY moments like that, and your energy will get wasted on very possibly nothing. Stay with what you know you can influence.....and let the rest go on without you.
You are a good dad, you act with loving intention....don't worry. I think it is wonderful that your daughter wants to go to counseling. And both her parents have the right to be involved in the decision of who that will be with. (even with my exN, I must concede that point).
You are doing well. Feel that as much as you can....and let the "bad" feelings drop out of you.
Bless you.
Mum
-
Longtire, You are a great Dad, how lucky your daughter is.
Now that your W is missing her N supply she needs to push some buttons.
I would get moved in, let the dust settle, think about anything she wants you to commit to for a date in the far future.
Im so glad your W was not there while you moved out.
My H did not waste any time to throw out even our D's things.
My friend went buy our house to find our D's expensive books in the trash.
I remember my N-mother did the same thing when I left home at 18teen. Sounds like you got most of your stuff, better you give it away than your W throw out what ever you left behind. I would get the Cat, or plan on getting another pet, if you act like you want the cat it would be a button she will try and push.
My H sent me e-mails about how he was going to put our dog to sleep if I didn't send for her to fly out to Dallas.
You will be so busy with work and moving in your new place give yourself some time to adjust. I know the emotions are high, you are the one leaving so letting go can be tough.
My D has pictures of our Dog on her screen saver, I find it difficult to look at it breaks my heart.
Take Care, will write later.
OR
-
longtire,
Welcome to your new home! Here are my thoughts on your daughter. (1) It is likely that she has NOT asked to see a therapist, that is your wife's idea; (2) if she sees this kooky therapist, it will probably not influence her in the least, teenagers have minds of their own; (3) I'm sure she isn't upset with you and isn't rejecting you. Have you talked to her yet?
bunny
-
OR, in this move I got the things out of the house that I really cared about, mainly my cat and my computer and my music. The rest is decorations, which I don't care much for, and furniture which can be replaced. I am certainly NOT missing my W at this point and even EMail comments from her frustrate me.
I talked with my D last night and she is NOT overly distraught right now. Her cell phone battery went dead, as I thought. She knows that her boyfriend will be out of town much of the summer and she will not have someone very close to vent to. She would like to see this therapist because she is already familiar with the family situation between her mother and I. She would rather not have to explain this all over again to someone new and could "just start venting," her words. I am really uncomfortable with my D seeing this T, but how do I say no to her? My D will stop by tonight so I can give her some money to get her mother something for Mother's Day. I will talk to her tonight and reiterate that she can talk to me about anything, even anger, even when it seems scary. However, she is a teenager, and it is not realistic to expect her to open up that much to her parents during the time in life where she is learning how to separate from them. I'm not sure how much to tell my daughter, but am considering saying that I feel uncomfortable with her going to this T who is only getting one side of the story right now, my W's. I don't want to be a jerk about this. I won't refuse if she is set on it, but this is important enough for me to fight for.
In the last couple of EMails (1-2 a day right now) my wife has brought up many good issues which are getting agreed between us. She has also thrown the following in to keep life interesting. She wants to split the costs of major car work between us. :shock: Here is my reply "I disagree. You already have your portion of savings and your credit card. You will need to use those for your car repairs the same way I will need to use my share on my car. It does not make sense to me to pay on something that I have no control or planning ability over." I have spent several thousand dollars getting this house and furishing it out. Even if I had the will , she has more disposable cash from savings than I do right now. Sheesh, I will never get used to this "cluelessness."
Tha other thing she was going to do was find a local place to do currency conversion for a trip my daughter is going on this summer. I was lined up to take the money over and actually do it. Here is her EMail "Hi longtire, I was able to find out the info. on the Euro dollars for D. I have purchased 100.00 american dollars (75 euros) at Bank of America. It is coming out of my own money, which I am gladly doing with no expectations of being paid back. You may go ahead and take care of D's <remaining money> with the ATM card. Just wanted to let you know this is all taken care of. W" My D spent several hundred dollars from this fund on yet another trip earlier this year. I pointed out to her that this would leave her with less than recommened for her Summer trip. She chose to do it anyway. OK, natural consequences. However, W is taking every opportunity to "save" my D from the consequences of her decisions and "look good" in the process. This is not unexpected from her, but it is still annoying after numerous talks between W and I as well as W, D and I about choices and consequences. Even the T in question above praised us for setting limits with D and allowing natural consequences. :evil:
After re-reading this post, I realize that it sounds negative. I did need to vent about these things with my W. However, things are going very well for me in the new house. My cat has settled in and doesn't seem to be having any major adjustment problems. I look forward to going home each night and to feeling like I get to decide about how things are there, from the largest down to the smallest. I realized that I have never actually lived alone before. I went from my parent's home, to college with roommates, to marriage with a W and then D. This is truly a new experience for me and I am enjoying it so far.
-
I talked with my D last night and she is NOT overly distraught right now. Her cell phone battery went dead, as I thought. She knows that her boyfriend will be out of town much of the summer and she will not have someone very close to vent to. She would like to see this therapist because she is already familiar with the family situation between her mother and I. She would rather not have to explain this all over again to someone new and could "just start venting," her words. I am really uncomfortable with my D seeing this T, but how do I say no to her?
Two thoughts:
(1) Can she go to a new therapist and just start venting without explanation -- YES. So I don't think her "reason" for seeing this therapist is totally about familiarity with the situation. I think it's about loyalty to her mom, and pleasing her mom. Not a good enough reason to see this therapist.
(2) Is it fair to see a therapist who may "know the situation" but who has one parent only as the client? Will that help your daughter? -- NO. If your daughter is really interested in getting help -- and if I were you, I wouldn't pay for someone just to hear her venting without therapy -- then she should see a non-biased therapist. As her parent you get to decide who you're going to pay! You get to make an executive decision whether she likes it or not. I'm not saying to be an ogre about it but you get to decide as the adult. She doesn't have the knowledge to make this decision.
bunny
-
Hiya Longtire:
Another thing too.....for your daughter's comfort and safety.....if you were her:
If you wanted to see a therapist, do you think you would want someone to speak with about your stuff, who you know is there trying to help you, or one that also talks to your mother, and who you might be afraid could devulge your private stuff, or possibly take sides with another adult (mom)?
If your daughter wishes to see a therapist and if your wife is truly interested in her daughter's welfare, a separate therapist for your daughter seems like the most considerate thing for her. I would be tempted to ask her what she would like.
GFN
-
I talked with my daughter last night about all this and explained that I thought it might be better for her to see someone who wasn't also seeing only one of her parents. That way, if I needed to go with her, or if her mother needed to go with her, or all three of us went it is a neutral envorinment for my daughter. I also told her that it might be good to talk with someone new, even if she had to explain the situation all over again. That way the explanation would be in her words and come from her experience, not her mother's or mine. She really seemed to understand that one. She said she understood and that it wasn't a big deal and she would be OK seeing someone else. I told her I would help her look for someone and talk to her mother about it. I feel a lot better about that situation.
A lesson for me: Don't fret about things my wife tells me third-hand. She has always tried to triangulate between us. Work it out directly with my daughter, she is a very reasonable, easy to talk to person. :)
Well, I have not needed sleeping pills the last couple of nights. I woke up this morning feeling more refreshed and optimistic than I have felt in weeks, maybe years. The sky is blue, the sun is shining, the day is full of possibilities. :D :D :D :D :D I am hesitant to jump the gun, but I don't see why I would ever consider getting back together with W? I expect I may have more reactions as time goes on, but I'll feel it and accept it like I have my other stuff already.
An update on my W's reply to my reply to her request to split major car expenses!?!? She said "I also disagree. I'm not sure why you would have no control or planning over car repairs. I would do nothing without talking with you first and making an agreement if we were to split the costs. The money that would go to fix all of this is now going towards a $xxx.xx house payment and bills for that house as well. If you are unwilling to budge or come up with any compromise, then I will be big enough to drop it for now. Know that I would like to find a compromise, but don't think it is worth going back and forth about if you don't feel the same." She got the rent amount wrong. Also, the money for car repairs does not come from there, it has always come out of savings, which she already has her share of.
I am detaching, but this kind of communication still chaps my a$$. :evil: I like the part where she tells me that she is big enough to drop it if *I* am unwilling to give her what she wants. Also, I like the part that she would like to find a compromise, but is unwilling to discuss it back and forth if I don't already agree with her. Yes, I'm stretching her words a bit, but I have many years of experience translating what she says. :( Anyone want to argue her case with me. :wink:
-
Hi longy,
Anyone want to argue her case with me.
Its my understanding that the pope disbanded the position of Devil's Advocate. :twisted:
Just kidding, longtire. :wink:
I'm sure your wife wasn't Lucifer in drag, but your marriage sounded kinda like hell at times.
Glad your daughter seems to be handling things as well as can be expected.
Also glad you feel free. 8)
Keeping you and D, and frankly your wife also, in prayer.
mudpup
-
Hey longtire
Here's a "Hellmark" card for you: Subject, Anniversary (To Wife)
Verse:
"Honest Anniversary, honey -
Too bad it's just about the money.
Can you imagine where we'd be
If you had, even once, loved ME?"
-
Stormchild, I think you have found your true calling in life! :D :twisted: :D
-
Congratulations longtire, you made a big step and you're still alive. Actually it seems you're more alive than ever. I agree that your daughter should see a different therapist. As far as your wife you can probably expect more of the same old, same old to come. I know how that can grate on you some ... so let her be "big enough" this time and some more in the future. I would think your objective is not to get her to see reason but for you to inject some sanity into the situation.
LM
-
Whew, I'm finally caught up on my reading here! There is so much going on here, and I hate to miss any of it. After getting very little reading last week and very little this weekend, it really hits home how much I get from just reading the other threads. People may think they are only talking about themselves and their problems, but I get comfort and support and insight that applies to me as well. Once again, any time away reinforces what a special place this is. I'm grateful daily to be here with all these wonderful people. (Yes, that means you!)
Even over the last week, I was already slipping back into those nasty old co-dependent ways. Nothing major, but I was thinking more about how to "deal" with my wife, rather than concentrating on what I need to do to take care of myself right now. For a while there, I was simply so busy and so tired that I had no extra energy to put into thinking co-dependent. The last several days I have caught up on my sleep and the pace of work has slowed in the new place. Bad habits creep back in. I remind myself that I live for myself first, then I can give back to others.
I realized something about myself around this move. I am very good at being an adult at work, in taking care of home, daughter, etc. I feel more like a child in taking care of my own and others' emotional needs. I still look for the "adult" to come riding to my rescue in these areas. I am getting better at recognizing this feeling and reminding myself that *I* am the adult in question, even when I don't feel like it. I have made progress in this area recently, but I still plan to bring this up in therapy. IMO, this is the main issue still plaguing me. I didn't get parented well growing up or have much exposure to good "adult" role models. I'm just not sure how to be an emotional adult yet. I hope that now that I'm in a safer, positive environment that I can devote more of my energy to this than to just coping.
Over the last day or two, I started having some minor doubts. "Well, I'm feeling better now, I need to go back home and work things out with my wife." :shock: I think that is the child me looking for the emotional adult. The other part of my brain kicks in quickly and reminds me that the reason I feel better today is that I am NOT doing the same old thing. However, there is still a part of my brain that says, "I'm OK now so I have to go back to doing the same old thing." As if that was my purpose in life, instead of taking care of myself and my daughter. That's some strong programming, I'm here to tell you!
Thank you all again for the support and prayers during this move. It really helped me to keep going knowing that others were thinking of me and wishing me well.
-
Longtire
It would be disastrous for you to think that a 'temporary seperation' would work everything out in your marriage.
You have the courage to make the break, it's bloody frightening being on your own after all these years. Remind yourself of the emotional vacuum you were living in? Were you ever happy with her?
Please don't get 'sucked back in' - it would be a huge mistake and would be a stain on your soul.
You never know, and it is early days, but the person who will cherish, love, nurture and adore you might just be waiting in the queue at the supermarket?
XXX
-
It would be disastrous for you to think that a 'temporary seperation' would work everything out in your marriage.
You have the courage to make the break, it's bloody frightening being on your own after all these years. Remind yourself of the emotional vacuum you were living in? Were you ever happy with her?
Please don't get 'sucked back in' - it would be a huge mistake and would be a stain on your soul.
Serena, don't take my ramblings here to mean that I'm wavering. Actually posting my "mental chatter" here helps me get it out into the light and to see it for what it really is. Posting takes the power out of these thoughts for me. Despite posting my doubts and fears, I am farther from getting sucked back in than I have ever been! :D
As for your characterization of my marriage as an emotional vacuum, I can now see that it was worse than that. Just having my feelings in that space might have been OK. In this case, my feelings would either get twisted around and shoved back at me, or they would be ignored altogether in favor of unrelated projections onto me. Everything there was a perversion of my feelings and healthy mutual relationship. :evil: It looks close enough to fool the brain, but my feelings always pick up on the wrongness of it and eventually won out. :(
-
It would be disastrous for you to think that a 'temporary seperation' would work everything out in your marriage.
You have the courage to make the break, it's bloody frightening being on your own after all these years. Remind yourself of the emotional vacuum you were living in? Were you ever happy with her?
Please don't get 'sucked back in' - it would be a huge mistake and would be a stain on your soul.
Serena, don't take my ramblings here to mean that I'm wavering. Actually posting my "mental chatter" here helps me get it out into the light and to see it for what it really is. Posting takes the power out of these thoughts for me. Despite posting my doubts and fears, I am farther from getting sucked back in than I have ever been! :D
As for your characterization of my marriage as an emotional vacuum, I can now see that it was worse than that. Just having my feelings in that space might have been OK. In this case, my feelings would either get twisted around and shoved back at me, or they would be ignored altogether in favor of unrelated projections onto me. Everything there was a perversion of my feelings and healthy mutual relationship. :evil: It looks close enough to fool the brain, but my feelings always pick up on the wrongness of it and eventually won out. :(
I have followed 'your story' since you began it and I am overjoyed that you have finally found 'freedom' and space to BE.............
You never had this throughout your adult life and I hope to God you relish every second.
I was the victim of the archetypal N mother, she still 'stalks' my life and my thoughts but I was so incredibly lucky to find a man who is the polar opposite. He is kind, loving, considerate, compassionate and very, very funny.
Here in the UK, he would be considered a 'bloke' because he loves football, sport etc.
-
intresting and long story, sorry you had to suffer so long in a bad relationship, but at least now you have learnt something and maybe it was for a learing experience, but do u ever feel regret or miss your x wife. or wish you were still in contact with her. Are games still being played on her end. thanks
-
It's a real shame because I miss Longtire. He was so good to me when I first came here.
I hope he is happy now
Lots of love and thanks to him wherever he is.
Spyralle x
-
Me too.
All hail Longtire.
Hops