Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on July 29, 2017, 02:08:51 PM
-
I thought I'd take a cue from PR and Tupp who really do dig deep into what works and doesn't work in your lives, peeling back layers with such care. I'm needing a thread where I can write about the times when I do sink into a trough or a rut. Maybe in just describing what's happening, even if it seems repetitive, some kind of insight will appear. I sure hope so.
I'm not depressed right now. But I am way too sedentary during my days off. I've found that the old folks really do tire me quite a lot. I still am glad I'm doing this work and feel very comfortable with it (in the daily and the Right Livelihood way). But because, unlike at an office job, I am constantly "on" when I'm with them, I've been surprised by how exhausting it can feel. Four or six hours with them leaves me very tired. Sometimes I'm so wiped out I can't make it through the evening without a nap, and then my sleep clock (always screwed up) can get completely off. Last night I was awake all night, finally took another melatonin at 6am and slept until 1am. Meanwhile, I'm trying to stay off Ambien, but in the last week or so I've been dipping into quarter-tabs on top of the melatonin to just ease me into slumber. My mind races the minute I set down the book or laptop and goes into alert mode, jerking me back to wakefulness.
One trough is obvious to me just now. Good time to narrate it a little. I had a date. Decided to go online again because my time is running short, age-wise, to find a partner for the last third or quarter of my life. If I want to do it I have to extend myself, and because I have to work, I can't join a load of leisure activities in hopes of meeting someone. Online profiles (found an age-appropriate, tamer site too) seem the way to go.
So I met this very nice man who is smart, attractive, and lives over 3 hours from me. Not a huge obstacle but it feels that way. We've had one date, three hours of talk. I was on my best appearance/behavior, he was a gracious date and good listener. Thing is, he was smitten, and responded by emailing me some very nice remarks, and calling a couple times. (I'm seeing him again in a couple weeks, in a little town about midway.) It's my reaction that is my trough right now. I went into a spiral of depression, anxiety, desire AND...anger. I didn't show it but was extremely reluctant to accept his calls ("I just wanted to hear your voice" and "How was your day?") because it felt so INTIMATE and TOO EARLY. I felt threatened as hell, wanted to hide/run/avoid.
And yet, I don't. I hope he and I can have another conversation as honest as our first one. I'm almost scared that I'll scare him away if I keep my commitment to total honesty. (I told him dating is scary for me and he said, "Me too.") So I think the trough is an old one...insecurity and because of my painful failures in marriage (and with my daughter) a deep fear that I can't succeed in recognizing or building a happy relationship.
Back in my little house with the outside world far away, I wallow in my trough by doing very little and retreating into escapism. I don't think it's all bad but that scares me too. What if a man I might find (not saying he would be that one...waaaay too early) expects an adult woman who functions like one, with daily consistency? Can I do this?
That's the Trough o' the Day. Thanks for listening.
love,
Hops
-
Hops you had a date! That is very exciting news!
I completely understand where you're coming from with this. After many years on my own and some painful experiences I find someone seeming keen very scary and quite off putting, even though to many people it would be a wonderful thing and they'd be overjoyed to have a man calling and emailing nice comments :) It is scary stuff. However lonely we get, it does always feel easier to manage our own little pool of life without someone else in it. But ..................... I would say, deep breaths. Take it slowly. Be honest if you need him to back off a little or go at an easier pace. And yes, the honesty might put him off. If it becomes long term, it may be that he (or someone else) is put off by your need to escape and have quiet days where you don't do much. But that is who you are, and what you need, so you can't pretend to be anyone else and even if you could, eventually we always show our real selves and we do need friends and partners that can accept our messed up bits and our ways of coping with the bits of life that we find scary. Something I am finding at the moment is that peeling away these layers - 'feeling the fear' is helping me to let go off stuff. So maybe this little period of your life will mean you moving closer to a point where you don't need to escape as often, because life isn't as emotionally demanding with a loving partner by your side (or even just a good night out once a month!). I can't imagine him seeing you as anything other than the loving, intelligent, thoughtful, creative and funny person that you are, Hops. I think we get so used to being rejected AS OURSELVES, for whatever reason, that we forget all our glorious personality traits and the things that someone else might just find spell binding. So I really hope that you'll be able to work through this little patch and scrape another layer away :)
As for feeling tired after your day with the older people - yes, dealing with people is infinitely more tiring than dealing with a computer or some sort of machinery. I think people often underestimate how tiring caring jobs can be, particularly when they can trigger various things in us as we go through the day. I don't think you're too sedentary on your days off. If you need a rest, you need a rest. We spent the day in London on Thursday (myself and son) and I spent almost all day yesterday on the couch, and I've not done much today, either. Looking after someone else is hard work, particularly if you're not sleeping well. I have been listening to meditation clips on YouTube and they seem to be helping me sleep better at the moment. Jason Stephenson is one of my favourites - I just really like the tone of his voice and the content of his visualisations :) x
-
Hugs Hops. We need to be persistent about these kinds of things, if we hope to change them. And I'm referring to the odd loose ends we still deal with about ourselves.
The anger reaction is curious. I think I'd be real explicit with him about taking things maybe slower than he wants. You're allowed to do that and still see him, I think.
-
Thanks, Tupp. That's both kind and encouraging...I really appreciate it.
And PR, the anger makes sense to me in that it's only covering fear. I did tell him (twice) that my pace is sloooooow, and one way or another, eventually I'll find out who should be running the race with me. Maybe him, maybe somebody else. And maybe my own self alone, with a little bit of faith.
xo
Hops
-
Well, hopefully he's willing to actually hear that and not hope that he can persuade you otherwise, Hops. Some guys are wise enough to not spook interesting women; some aren't. I don't think any of us would willingly agree to being "possessed" by someone. No matter their methods.
-
I know I'll find out, with this man should it be so, or with any other.
I'm mostly frustrated by what's going on in me, not in anyone else. This: insecurity and because of my painful failures in marriage (and with my daughter) a deep fear that I can't succeed in recognizing or building a happy relationship.
I don't trust my own judgement or "chooser" and I fight what I want. I find dating really scary and also really important, both of which make it too "charged" to be reliable evidence. What I need to know is there, in others and in myself, but I tend to panic and retreat. Self-sabotage.
Heading off to counselor right now so I'll dump it on the poor guy one more time.
Hops
-
Hopsie, for what it's worth, I don't think the situation with your D is down to any kind of failing on your part. From what you've written on here over the years it's clear that you love her dearly and that the situation you are in with her isn't one that's been created by you doing awful things. It seems like it's just very rotten luck that things have ended up the way they are. Perhaps the situation with the chap, however it may go, might help you release a bit of the blame you have towards yourself for past relationships? I completely understand the fear and the insecurity; I find the hurt of falling for someone and then being rejected by them very difficult to cope with so I understand why you feel that way (particularly as it can then trigger off past rejections and make that so painful again). I also find it hard to sift through the feelings and work out what is valid and useful, what is old stuff that is of no use now, what's a helpful warning sound and what's an over reaction based on past events. So yes, all of that does make dating scary, it's so much more than just going out for a coffee! I get why it becomes such a big deal. But I hope you might be able to chip away at it a little and get a couple more bricks down from the barrier. I hope the counsellor has some good advice for you, it always helps to come away with some words of wisdom, I think :) xx
-
I understand Hops. I hope you'll be able to find a path through this.
-
Thank you, Tupp and Amber--it's a comfort.
Tupp, I so appreciate the words of comfort re. my D...that loss has been haunting me more recently (more than the usual daily) because a friend of mine with a D the same age, who also has bipolar disorder, just lost her D to suicide. Not knowing (though I do check her Twitter now and then) how my D really is doing, is very very hard. So she's on my mind even more than normal. Thanks for the comfort. She's a resilient and resourceful person, so if she is in fact getting decent treatment and able to maintain it, there's as much hope for her as for anyone. It's just really hard not to be able to help support her.
PR, thanks. I am not so much fearing rejection (if anything, I'd reject first out of self-protection) but fearing going into irrationality. Not focusing so much on This Particular Man, but the whole idea. It's a challenging journey that calls on what wee spurts of emotional bravery I retain. No way to do this without:
1) CHANGE
2) VULNERABILITY
And I'm convinced nobody (well, me) signs up for those unless they really do have a dream.
I've got to reckon with my dream of a loving companionship. Embrace it and accept its limits.
love,
Hops
-
Thank you, Tupp and Amber--it's a comfort.
Tupp, I so appreciate the words of comfort re. my D...that loss has been haunting me more recently (more than the usual daily) because a friend of mine with a D the same age, who also has bipolar disorder, just lost her D to suicide. Not knowing (though I do check her Twitter now and then) how my D really is doing, is very very hard. So she's on my mind even more than normal. Thanks for the comfort. She's a resilient and resourceful person, so if she is in fact getting decent treatment and able to maintain it, there's as much hope for her as for anyone. It's just really hard not to be able to help support her.
PR, thanks. I am not so much fearing rejection (if anything, I'd reject first out of self-protection) but fearing going into irrationality. Not focusing so much on This Particular Man, but the whole idea. It's a challenging journey that calls on what wee spurts of emotional bravery I retain. No way to do this without:
1) CHANGE
2) VULNERABILITY
And I'm convinced nobody (well, me) signs up for those unless they really do have a dream.
I've got to reckon with my dream of a loving companionship. Embrace it and accept its limits.
love,
Hops
Hops, I can't imagine how hard it is for you to not be in contact with your D, particularly giving that your friend has just lost her daughter. So I think your fears and worries with regards this/any man (or just relationships in general) are justified and far from irrational.
It did remind me of a conversation I had with a lovely therapist many moons ago. My son was very young and I was struggling with depression, abuse flashbacks, my mum (who I was still in contact with at that time), my son's dad being very unpredictable and unreasonable and just generally not having a great time and not, therefore, being the perfect mum that I wanted to be. My T said lots of positive things about my intelligence, resourcefulness, loving nature etc etc and said that it might well be in years to come that, given the choice, my son would rather have a mum with those traits and some spells of depression and rough patches rather than someone who plodded through life with no up or down.
She phrased it much better than that but it always stuck with me; that idea of us being a package with wonderful bits and other bits that are overshadowed by the wonderful. I do think with the sort of families we've been brought up in that we're taught to really focus on the less than perfect bits and our gifts and amazing aspects are often ignored or ridiculed.
So I think what I'm trying to say, without in any way diminishing what you experience and how it all feels (I really get how tough that is, I struggle with similar myself) that your wonderful bits massively outweigh the bits that you (very understandably) struggle with at times. I think an emotionally intelligent, grounded, confident man will understand that your situation with your D has broken your heart and that there are times when you just need to be by yourself and put it back together again. In fact, I think it would be weird if that wasn't the situation; you've had so much heartache to cope with, alongside practical problems with work and money. I think there are people who look at someone coping with adversity and admire them, and people who see 'problems' and run for it. I think we all need people who fall into the first group, not the second.
I'm not sure if that makes sense. It does to me but it's early and I've not had a coffee yet :) But yes, I get it's scary and there's a whole basket of stuff that might start falling out but maybe you can keep putting it up on here so we can mirror back your amazing bits so that the other stuff doesn't become the only thing that's there? I know it's hard to keep sight of what you do well when things seem to be falling apart. I'll stop waffling now before I get more confusing, lol, but in short, I don't think what you experience is irrational. In simpler terms it's like being scared of dogs if you've been bitten by one. Seems sensible to be scared of it happening again, just a bit more complicated to deal with than finding a friendly one to pet :) xx
-
Hops, there is a LOT that goes on in that "dance". And it necessarily touches, opens, irritates all the ow-y places. Some things bloom, while others fade out and wait for another season to germinate.
My guy friend, the retired doc... pointed out that in my situation, I'm extremely independent. (That's a result of all my past; adult children of N-moms prize freedom/independence like a magical get out of hell free card.) Yes, I'm lonely - I miss the simple companionship and complimentary way guy brains work with girl brains. The work and play aspect of it. Being included in guy activities has always felt more alive to me. I really like my life, like this - but I know there's more. A richer tapestry.
And part of that is their more open willingness to accept risk. And deal with the consequences - good and bad - without trying to over-engineer everything. "Here, hold my beer and watch this!" is the meme for that, I guess. LOL. It's a way of understanding the world and life as an adventure - with confidence in themselves - that is as simply honest, plain, and joyful as children, who haven't even begun to worry that there might be limits to what they really CAN do.
Yes, men are alot more than that. They love and attach as deep as women do. They can be very complex, as well. They are my partners in "general mayhem". LOL. And with my tendency to over-engineer everything, allowing this other energy into my life has almost always been rewarding.
Yeah, we make mistakes. Expect too much or the wrong things; forget to communicate or miscommunicate; misread what the other is really all about. But that is the way of the life of a relationship - working through it with a partner. Making room for their volition and wants/needs. And knowing "who" they are... which happens slowly over time. Without exception.
Trusting and love, within ourselves for another... are two forces that do not submit themselves to casual "rationality" and verbal analysis. Sometimes it's built through experience; sometimes a person just "knows". The true character of a person can either be manifested or hidden by persona. So, I tend to watch what they DO; how they treat others... not just me. And I put no stock in the "sales pitch". Real intimacy's rhythm and melodies are different. And they tend to respect & nurture independence of being. Of being partners - but different people. Sharing space & time as individuals, together.
Even when we give up a little independence for the sake of gaining a relationship, it doesn't disappear - you can always get back on that horse. But, generally, what I find people's hesitation about relationships is, is a type of conditioning/programming in our minds about what this is supposed to be like. Expectations. I call it the "white picket fence syndrome" and have for a real long time. We have been programmed to want/expect this Normal Rockwell, Leave it to Beaver, Hallmark Card set of conditions for what a relationship is; what it feels like; how it "should be".
Real relationships aren't anything like that. And they don't have to be, to be valuable and real. They can be ANYTHING you and your partner in "general mayhem" want it to be. It's a construction project. A novel you write in experience. Long, short, temporary or permanent. Outside social norms, or within them. Even appropriating parts of that "white picket fence" idea and re-imagining them.
My favorite creative endeavor is "creating" a reality. And if it's shared, it's even more satisfactory. And sometimes you have to be the one to say: "Here, hold my beer and watch this!"
-
Tupp, the depth of your empathy and kindness in this was so healing to read. I really felt imagined, and visualized, and heard. Don't know how to say how comforting that message was/is:
our wonderful bits massively outweigh the bits that you (very understandably) struggle with at times. I think an emotionally intelligent, grounded, confident man will understand that your situation with your D has broken your heart and that there are times when you just need to be by yourself and put it back together again. In fact, I think it would be weird if that wasn't the situation; you've had so much heartache to cope with, alongside practical problems with work and money. I think there are people who look at someone coping with adversity and admire them, and people who see 'problems' and run for it.
Best way I can explain it is that my self esteem climbed back up a rung. Thank you for helping me feel that!
love,
Hops
-
PR, that was so evocative. I really enjoy your narratives about your own dance a lot. I can see why you're drawn to masculinity--in others and in yourself. It's the artist spirit and it's powerful. A nonconforming female is my favorite kind of human! But you're acknowledging vulnerability, occasional loneliness, and the normal awareness of aging, too, which I think is all to the good. I wish you had an unmarried male close friend, IRL rather than online, but glad the online doc gives good perspective.
I know how absorbing epistolary friendships can be, and once realized I'd given much of the best of myself to one impossible one for years. So now, except for here...I want my deepest connections to be in 3D. But I'm not alone on a mountainside either. You're using the tools and predilections you have and I think using them well.
Speaking of men, one local gent I responded to said he'd like to take me to dinner, and it turned out he knew and remembered and loved my Dad and that was joyful! So about the dinner, I responded YES! two days ago, and haven't heard back. I often think that when I'm pleased I react over-the-toply and that can scare 'em away too. I so wish men were as direct as I often am (to my peril). We'll see what happens. All good either way is the only attitude to take.
Hugs
Hops
-
Tupp, the depth of your empathy and kindness in this was so healing to read. I really felt imagined, and visualized, and heard. Don't know how to say how comforting that message was/is:
our wonderful bits massively outweigh the bits that you (very understandably) struggle with at times. I think an emotionally intelligent, grounded, confident man will understand that your situation with your D has broken your heart and that there are times when you just need to be by yourself and put it back together again. In fact, I think it would be weird if that wasn't the situation; you've had so much heartache to cope with, alongside practical problems with work and money. I think there are people who look at someone coping with adversity and admire them, and people who see 'problems' and run for it.
Best way I can explain it is that my self esteem climbed back up a rung. Thank you for helping me feel that!
love,
Hops
You've helped me so much over the years, Hops, I am glad to be able to return the favour :) I love the way the forum means we can help each other out and mirror back the good bits that tend to get lost when we're in a quandry and working through difficult stuff.
Love Tupp xx
-
Hops, I read something yesterday that kinda dives deep - it can apply to a lot of different things.
Somehow we've confused (modern people, that is) WHAT we are, with WHO we are. What I am is an adult child of an N-mom and divorce. Who I am is a survivor. The latter is the one that can be altered, the former, not so much. The author was observing that in modern social ideas we seem to have gotten things completely backwards. That idea might help a bit as you sort out this current "project" you're working on.
I am also going through issues of trusting myself and believing my "chooser" is wise and has a clue, and my best interests at heart. (Might be that old problem of N-mom's choices being so wrong for me or actually harmful, manifesting within my own brain's reality; just like the self-abuse I heap on myself for not being "good enough".)
The author of that bit of thinking above, has a blog and has written several books. Well, more than several. He seems to be working through questions of human emotion, morality, connection to the divine - through his stories. I get a deep sense of peace & quiet - even when he's written about intense conflict and life/death situations. Been my favorite bedtime reading, after Song of Ice & Fire (Game of Thrones), lately. Real nutritious brain & soul food. He doesn't lecture; he explores, describes, asks "what if", and thinks things through to A possible conclusion - within his stories. Sometimes, adding this kind of stuff, while trying something new & different... helps in odd ways.
-
I enjoy reading this thread, though I don't feel I have much to add just now.
Lighter
-
I'm glad you're here, Lighter, even if you're doing yoga while the talk flies. :)
Amber, I LOVE that distinction between the What and Who.
Would you mind sharing that author's name?
What I am is the D of an Nmother (and gentle father, ttl), S of a sociopathNbro, and...a serious poet, which is by definition an outsider, outlier, and misfit. (Embraced, not apologized for; it's just where most poets are in culture). It was startling to learn, first in grad school, that there's emotional bravery to the best poetry. It kind of meant that while my knees were knocking over all sorts of things other people do routinely without my wimpiness....I also had an inner commitment to feel the consequences of my unusual shape, at the cost of profound, involuntary change. Later, I found in my poetry a refusal to paper over pain and a drive to drill toward empathy, and later still, a determination to connect the dots and splotches no matter how it dirtied the novelistic, religious self-image I'd cobbled together much by accident before I understood I was a poet, by definition an emotional revolutionary.
Huh. That was kinda pompous or polemical. (At least I said revolutionary rather than anarchist!) :D
I just watched a visually gorgeous film about a representational artist and his protege. I bet you'd like it, Amber. Local Color is the title...
Hugs
Hops
-
He's Francis Porretto - you might not agree with some of his point of view (I don't), but he's very interesting to ponder on the topics he tries to address.
-
Thanks! I will Google him and appreciate the ref.
hugs
Hops
-
Oh, yikes.
:shock:
-
Yeah, he's tough. :(
BUT, I like the way he tries to think around all sides of something. His novels are kinda sci-fi, in that he fantasizes a good bit. I didn't think I would like his Spooner series about the last space ship of humans that establish another world that they call "Hope". Their society is anarchist - in the technical sense of the term - in that there are no "states"; no government. And then he confronts how human nature kind of always trends that direction and what else it is, in human nature, that insists that a state isn't necessary (but that requires some certain morality or values code that can be tough to live with/live up to).
The 3 book Spoonerite series really does start to explore the difference between WHAT and WHO people are. And at the end of it, I decided I was wrong about his viewpoints - he surprised me with some ideas that are anti-stereotypical of people who are committed to specific value systems. It can be read at face-value for just the story - or you can take some of his explorations about "how things are" and ponder the inherent social questions in them. Your choice. I liked how it stretched me, intellectually and trying to understand some of the character's choices.
-
Ja. I didn't delve deeper, couldn't handle the front-page homophobia.
But it's good to read some folks who are in places one can't relate to.
Glad you've enjoyed it -- you DO have an inquiring mind!
Hugs
Hops
-
Yeah, I had the same reaction Hops. But he's actually NOT homophobic - and he moves into bigger, deeper thoughts. It's a real challenge to keep reading someone when they hit you over the head with something unpleasant, taking the words at face value... but are only using that to get you to pay attention, set aside your "normal operating conditions", and just let the whole thing sink in. Sorta like the violence in Cormac McCarthy and how he uses it to say something ELSE.
I find it useful to "stretch" this way, but I can certainly understand times when someone's just not up to it or interested in it.
-
Ja...I already got stretch marks from what's going on under my nose.
You guessed right, I'm not up to it. But I understand hanging on with a difficult or repellent narrative to get to a surprising place. Glad you are stimulated by it and enjoy it.
Hugs
Hops