Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lighter on August 05, 2017, 03:02:13 PM
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I realized today, not for the first time, that being happy right where my feet are is the primary factor involved in my serenity.
If I have anything else cross my mind, and grab hold of it, then I'm off track. Again.
Just doing doing doing in the zone isn't a switch being flipped....
it's me getting out of my own way, and NOT being sidetracked.
REFUSING to be sidetracked is it's own thing, IME. It takes energy to refuse.
THE BEING IN THE ZONE is just being without anything else going on, IME.
I have an aversion to the word meditation. It bothers me... disturbs me... not sure why. BC it FEEEEEELS like someone somewhere used that word to mystify and confuse other people? That's how it feels to me, and I deeply resent that we aren't taught how to do that from a very young age. I'm deeply upset my children don't do it, though they were lucky to be exposed at a very young age. This isn't a rational whole body resentment... it's my inner child stomping her foot.
My sister left today with my oldest DD16 with her. They'll stop to see cousins midway, then move on to Toronto for a week. I feel relieved that DD will have herself to depend on, bc I have a hard time just letting her care for herself. It's a process for me to STOP doing for her, reminding her about supplements, bedtime, time on electronics, etc. I realize it's exhausting to do, and also exhausting to NOT do it. s
We've been working on splitting up chores. Travel hasn't made it easier. I NEEEED everyone to be in the groove before school starts, and I neeeed to not lose my cool while we work on it, and neeeed neeed need.
The word NEED is a red flag, that's what it is.
I know this.... I have to spend some time figuring out what I want, what brings joy, and gently release other people's expectations without reacting to them in any way....
::knocking wood::
Over the last month I've not had any very low spots, thank goodness, bc I do remember to pay attention to whatever is bugging me, and it very quickly gets better. That's one thing I've held on to, and want to explore, expand, etc.
It's difficult for me to stop doing for others. I can very easily push myself to the bottom of my list. That's my fault, not anyone elses, though I do get frustrated with others I notice.
The thing is..... having many people around is a huge distraction, esp when you add the SHOULDS/HAVE TOs of being a mother, sister, daughter, friend.... being tugged in so many directions, and I feel I'm getting better at this, by increments, just a slow learner.
I can say NO, and should say NO. Saying YES feels better. off the top of my head.. we all do what feels good, I suppose. I have to just suck it up, and say NO more often. I have to say it before I'm frustrated. I think I'm entitled to say it, but I take too much on, and I'm always last on the list it seems.
Actually, I've been saying NO, and choosing things that bring me joy over the last week pretty steadily. There are just bobbles where I have to say NO, and worse, say NO to many people at once that upset me very much... that's when I remember to pay attention to the anxiety, and relieve the pressure.
I'd like to be able to skip the anxiety when I say NO, and just feel OK about it. That's the mission as of today.
To say NO without angst, and to make sure my operating systems are my own, and not other people's expectations, etc.
Making peace with big change is another thing, of course. That has to happen too, IME.
The journey continues.
Light
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The changes can be difficult, Lighter, and it is hard to hold on to what you're trying to do in the hubble and bubble of everything else that needs to be done. Life gets in the way of our self improvement :) I find 'yes' trips out of my mouth so easily. I've had to practise saying "I need to check my diary, I'll let you know" just to give myself some space to think about whether I want to say yes or no. I've noticed just this weekend that I often think to myself "well, we'll just have to cope" when I'm contemplating doing something that might be hard going. And equally, just this weekend, I've found myself thinking, "I don't want to cope. I want to enjoy what I'm doing and have some comfort and some easy days in my life". I think juggling so many things - and therefore becoming good at coping - often contributes to saying yes more often than we should. People in the UK often say if you want something done, ask a busy person to do it. They just add it to the list and get on with it.
I'm finding it easier to say no but still struggling with friends who then fall by the wayside because I refused something. I still find that feeling of being disposable difficult to deal with. But we get there, don't we.
I hope DD has a good time away. It is difficult to step back from the endless task of organising them and telling them what to do. I am trying to step back from my own son at the minute. I did get him to tidy up his toys before bedtime tonight and he didn't complain (well, not much :) ).
Keep on keeping on :) xx
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Recent update....
Something jarred me the other day, and it struck me....
I'm SO in my own way.
What I've been doing will never get me through, and out the other side.
I went to bed that night, had a truly awful dream... no making sense of it, then remained in bed the entire day. I let all my fears catch me. Without defense or struggle. Just wash over me all day long. No food....just acceptance.
The next day I got up early without trouble and had a productive day.... what I'd normally call "being in the zone", but this wasn't the same thing, IME.
This felt like I was inhabiting my authentic self again. No planning or talking about it, just inhabiting it. It didn't feel like it did when I used to recognize my old self for a time, on and off.
Not good or bad. I just DID what I used to do... felt the same joy, and energy...... enjoyed the familiar cadence of life as it used to be... and skipped regrets when they could have popped up. They never entered my mind.
After dinner I tried to write this post, and I had several good cries. I didn't finish the post. Instead I washed my face, put on good skin cream, flossed and went to bed feeling light, and happy.
Maybe I got out of my own way.
Maybe better coping strategies are sinking in.
Maybe enough time has passed..... maybe the other shoe doesn't always have to fall when I let my guard down.
Maybe I can play again, like I used to, and things will be OK, like they used to.
Maybe.
We'll just have to see.
Lighter: )
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Wow, that sounds like something shifted and in a very big and obvious way, Lighter! I hope it continues to be so, and that life becomes a little easier (and more fun!) xx
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Ditto everything Tupp said, Lighter!
Sometimes letting go of tight control is the hardest AND most helpful thing to do for yourself.
Painful, but it prepares the ground for inner peace.
Hugs,
Hops
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Another thing that keeps me off center.... has KEPT me off center for years.....
having other people move, pack, unpack, and move my stuff around so that I can't find anything unless I accidentally find it while searching for something else. I noticed, not with emotion, how many times today I couldn't find things I was looking for.
If I'd counted, I'd say it would have been over 20. Most of the time I give up, and go on without finishing whatever it was I needed or wanted to do or get done..... feelings of being thwarted could have been a part of my day, had I allowed it. I think I used to feel thwarted, and defeated.... in so many ways. Other people parenting my children with different priorities, and agendas. OMG, HUGE deal. Not being able to find my skin care products, make up, candles, matches, essential oils, pots, pans, food items..... SO many of my daily items were moved around last week. So. Many. To different rooms, and I'm ready to let that go now. I'm just say'in.... I noted THAT, without emotion, for the first time today, and how not being able to find my things leads to purchasing new things that get hidden and tucked away, leading to a very unproductive cycle. I'm over it, but ready to tackle, and end it, kwim?
Part of feeling in the zone seemed to be about not hearing chatter of other people in my head. I was happily going about my day, doing what was important TO ME, and no one was pressuring me to DO what they needed, and I didn't feel the need to consider anything but what was important to me. SO familiar.... what used to be the way I operated was disrupted by motherhood, of course, and then chaos and one crisis after another so I couldn't even feel myself in my own body on and off for years.
I have people close to me that have NEEDS of their own.... in order to feel OK for themselves, they NEEEEEEEED things important to them to GET DONE. I'm very responsive, and need everyone to be OK. I say YES, and act before thinking, Tupp.... much like you. I'm working on it, and doing pretty well, I think: )
THAT seemed to be the biggest part of my zen, IMO, or what came up as true about it.
Thanks for your posts Tupp, and Hops. It feels so good to puzzle through this here: )
Lighter
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Today the friend recovering from his binge phoned.... slurring badly..... talking about his prayers for reflexes, and balance to return. He's an amazing athlete and salesperson, but the drugs that prevent stroke while detoxing, make him sound overtly drunk. WILL they come back after this? Will he think clearly again? He's sharp as a tack typically. It was frightening to contemplate. He's frightened.
He drinks when riding 60 miles on his bike, swimming for an hour, or working too hard fails to make him feel OK. He's been sober for years, on and off again then BAM. To the hospital or morgue, and so far it's the hospital.
He hasn't been able to change old brain pathways, and it's unclear what it will take to do that. Or if he can.
Today, just listening to him and not talking I was reminded of the friend I lost to addiction, or complications of it a while back. I really hated that feeling....
it was like something dark and awful slithered into my brain, and froze there. I didn't feel that way before today... not with him.
Anyway, the short of this is....
We've known each other for over 40 years. We're chosen FOO actually, long distance touchstones in weekly life, and darkest hours. There have been some very dark hours. We've loved each other's mothers together, and lost them both recently. Mourned them together. Walked each other through divorces, and break ups, and.....
he put his house up, as did both our mothers, to ensure I got out on bond in 2008.
Long and short of it.... for 20 years I've told him he needs to give up his attachments to old girlfriends and wives so he has space to build new relationships. I've always left myself off that list.
Today he let me know his very good AA friend has always had me on the above list.
I think it's necessary. I can see that now bc he's going to die without radical change.
It's painful to lose a childhood friend....
someone who accepts you, even though they know the worst. In my world, that's a very short list.
I'm going to frame it as positively as I can..... I might find the space to build new attachments too.
Lighter
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Friend phoned today with "bad news".....
he fell while trying to care for dogs.
There are fractured bones, with one bad cut.
What I thought he was going to say....
We need to take a break from our friendship, or just end it.
It made my stomach flip.
After his update, I found myself wishing it could have been the relationship conversation. I'm much calmer about it now, for sure. He'll be on the mend when we have it.
Lighter
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Wow, Lighter, it is a real punch in the stomach when that situation arises that someone says you are on of the things they must let go of. It's hard to let go of people who've been through a lot with you. If he does feel he needs to for a while I'm hoping he might be able to work through his stuff and then get back in touch. Some friendships can survive the separation, others don't make it. Addiction is like the third person in the relationship, I feel. I've lost some good friends to addiction, physically and metaphorically. In a way I can understand needing to cut off all ties in order to deal with whatever is at the root of it. But it's tough to hear. And tough for him to go through. I hope he can find a way out without pushing you out xx
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Tupp:
It was a punch to the gut, but it's not that anymore. It's a relief to know that my friend will be better off IF he has space to build healthy new attachments to women.
If there's growth, and I have every reason to believe my friend can do this.... we can connect again. I'm certain: )
Lighter
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Tupp:
It was a punch to the gut, but it's not that anymore. It's a relief to know that my friend will be better off IF he has space to build healthy new attachments to women.
If there's growth, and I have every reason to believe my friend can do this.... we can connect again. I'm certain: )
Lighter
Yep, there's one of those memes floating round the internet at the moment, something about letting things go and the things that you're meant to have will come back to you. What I've found hard about letting go of those looooooong standing relationships is that you never have to explain a situation, they've been there for each one and they know what happened. Which I suppose is also one reason they can become unhealthy. I'm glad you're feeling okay with it and I hope your friend is able to help himself and get better xx
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Hi Tupp:
My friend sounds steady and rational today, which bodes well for researching recovery paths.
I'm thinking Amen Clinics to address whatever chemical imbalances, and brain problems are at the root, but I'm not making decisions here. According to Amen Clinics there are 6 types of addicts, and different parts of the brain are involved with each. Treatment should be specific the individual, which makes sense to me.
Whatever they do, it needs to be a mindful choice my friend can get behind, and work with.
Lighter
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Update on friend's surgery... all went well, and he's home recovering.
I didn't have to say that it wasn't a good idea for him to convalesce with me, he said it himself. He's going to AA meetings, and I sent him information about another program... he asked me to send it. I've stopped volunteering things when not asked.
I've already told him we need to disconnect for a while, but I don't know that he heard it. It feels OK, and he'll understand, with plenty of support from his friends and brother, when it happens.
This is huge work for me to say things that are uncomfortable. I'm noticing it everywhere in my life, and how it negatively effects me to remain silent or NOT say what needs to be said. I'm doing things outside my comfort zone, and practicing. Talking about it with my children, bc it effects everything in the house.
I had a good chat with T about it, and it's an interesting thing to have another human being BE so angry about things I SHOULD BE ANGRY ABOUT, but can't find it in myself to BE angry, bc the need for serenity is so overhearing and huge.
Somehow I have to find the balance, but getting there is a whonky process, IME.
I notice that I've always been intimidated by people with healthy boundaries, and the ability to just say things that might bring conflict. It's so uncomfortable just thinking about it. So many shades of conflict, and what's healthy and less healthy, etc. Trying to BE the people who've intimidated me all my life is interesting. It feels very odd to me.
The journey continues.
Lighter
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It's a very painful journey to honestly assess one's life, and the people in it, IME.
I can label myself "adverse to controversy" and I can admit I go against my own interests in order to avoid conflict, but that's just the beginning.
The people in my life who exert power over me, have always done so, raised me that that way..... the ones who still exert power, or try to, over me...
it's very hurtful to take honest stock, IME.
Then comes the shame of admitting what part I've played, and how it's formed my life, and relationship, esp with my children.
It ties into the parts I played in both my marriages, and what came next.
This kind of honest exploration takes it's toll on my immune system, as does living with the conflict that is catalyst.
I'm going to stop making old mistakes, as I learn to do better. I'm going to have to learn to make new mistakes.
::nodding::
The sense of relief accompanying that statement inhabits my entire chest.
Lighter
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Lighter, I think these, big, soul searching shifts are painful. It's interesting that you mention having to look at your own role, Sea said something similar and I know I've found/find having to accept my part in a situation very tough to do.
I saw a shamanic healer once, a few years ago now. I got there expecting a bloke covered in war paint and wearing a grass skirt (just shows how basic my cultural appreciation is!) and this fella looks like a surfer, long hair and tatts and came to the door in jeans and bare feet :) Nice guy, I enjoyed working with him. I was talking to him about avoiding conflict and how I tend to keep quiet instead of speaking out. He said it's important to speak, because what you say might be a turning point for someone else or give them an opportunity to learn a lesson. For me, it was an interesting way to look at things.
I'm still careful about what I say a lot of the time. I don't like conflict - a decade of harassment after annoying my mum put paid to that - and I don't want to be the sort of person that tramps all over people's feelings, or constantly gives out unsolicited advice. But I am/have been trying not to worry so much about 'the other person' all the time and speak up a bit more often. I suppose it's a case of picking your battles and thinking which times it's in your best interests to say something and when it won't make any difference anyway.
Sorry, rambling on a bit, it's a bit early here, but just wanted to say it as I thought of it whilst reading your post :) x
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Tupp:
Sometimes turning toward, and embracing conflict is almost impossible for me. It's so so hard. I can't imagine what it's like for you after being raised by your mother.
My mother was more indifferent, unable to hear me... probably my sibs also. It's maddening to watch myself struggle to HEAR my oldest dd... we're so different. Sometimes her energy is physically painful. Sometimes it's comforting and soft, which makes the cutting blunt aspects even more frustrating, IME.
Catching up with the T the other day was really good for me.
Chatting with tech support about deck and concrete sealants was helpful too. I'm usually relieved once I reach out and ask for help when I need it. It's just so darned difficult to do, IME.
I noticed that learning to identify, and access resources was a big part of my children's early education. I never heard a whisper about that when I was in school. I had trouble figuring out how to use a dictionary, and no one helped me figure that out.
(((Tupp))) How are things going for you today?
I just peeled a rug off dd's bathroom floor. I'm wondering how much energy, and what chemicals I should involve to solve that problem.... rubber backing bonded with flooring.
I cleaned out gutters and much moss from roof, then found the ends of buried drain pipes in the woods. Pressure washed the drive, and will seal this week if possible. Faucets are dripping, and in need of attention. I can't get the darned thing apart, will have to do more research on YouTube.
I'm researching sealants for my projects, and my father's. I really hate dealing with paperwork STILL, and there's always something to do.
That final thought sent a head to toe adrenaline rush through me. I really hate paperwork. THESE things are distractions I'm taming and dealing with better as I learn how. Finding balance in all areas, all the time, is trickier.
Lighter
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Hey Lighter,
Gentle push here, and with apologies for taking so long to ask.
When I read the list of medical/quasi-medical/remedy/diagnostic treatments you mentioned about your DD, I felt a shock go through me. (I don't often feel that so thought I'd mention it).
Have you read up on Amen clinics? Here is one place to start. Links below the article lead further. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen_Clinics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen_Clinics)
Forgive me if this is a big overreach (it might well be!), but when I was asking myself, I wonder what all the non-mainstream medical focus is about, it occurred to me...I wonder if it's because Light felt out of mainstream as a child, and failed by mainstream culture and systems an adult? Mainstream medical culture is not just imperfect but can and has been damaging to individuals. But most of the time and at its best, medicine at respected centers (Mayo, Cleveland, university-affiliated teaching hospitals) is leading edge and life-saving.
Your attraction to anti-mainstream healing is so understandable. But sometimes worrisome to my ears because it seems unusually intense. Passing it on to the kids, etc. (I have a particular interest in how parents cope with the fire hose of medical info available, because of my career. Sorting positive from promotional is hard. Then again, "to my ears" really means...I have my own bias and this tripped it.)
I would just offer that if you find alarms about or serious criticisms of a methodology or practitioner in multiple places, consider that it is worth honoring not just the knowledge of a well-marketed "different" or "special" expert you're drawn to, but also (in the aggregate) the knowledge of those who've raised the alarm.
love
Hops
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Tupp:
Sometimes turning toward, and embracing conflict is almost impossible for me. It's so so hard. I can't imagine what it's like for you after being raised by your mother.
My mother was more indifferent, unable to hear me... probably my sibs also. It's maddening to watch myself struggle to HEAR my oldest dd... we're so different. Sometimes her energy is physically painful. Sometimes it's comforting and soft, which makes the cutting blunt aspects even more frustrating, IME.
Catching up with the T the other day was really good for me.
Chatting with tech support about deck and concrete sealants was helpful too. I'm usually relieved once I reach out and ask for help when I need it. It's just so darned difficult to do, IME.
I noticed that learning to identify, and access resources was a big part of my children's early education. I never heard a whisper about that when I was in school. I had trouble figuring out how to use a dictionary, and no one helped me figure that out.
(((Tupp))) How are things going for you today?
I just peeled a rug off dd's bathroom floor. I'm wondering how much energy, and what chemicals I should involve to solve that problem.... rubber backing bonded with flooring.
I cleaned out gutters and much moss from roof, then found the ends of buried drain pipes in the woods. Pressure washed the drive, and will seal this week if possible. Faucets are dripping, and in need of attention. I can't get the darned thing apart, will have to do more research on YouTube.
I'm researching sealants for my projects, and my father's. I really hate dealing with paperwork STILL, and there's always something to do.
That final thought sent a head to toe adrenaline rush through me. I really hate paperwork. THESE things are distractions I'm taming and dealing with better as I learn how. Finding balance in all areas, all the time, is trickier.
Lighter
I can identify so much with hating the paperwork, Lighter! When I look at all the files on my shelves and the boxes of 'evidence' I have held onto, just in case, and the endless lists of documents on my computer, I am fully aware that it represents more work than I did for my degree and my teaching qualifications combined. That was hard work and a lot of paperwork for something positive and constructive. The stuff I have at home represents abuse, domination, inequality, thousands of hours of slogging away through to the early hours of the morning trying to prove I didn't do what she said, trying desperately to get someone to figure out why my son wasn't developing and alongside that trying to work out all the medical problems on my own and figure out the best way to educate him. It represents so much negativity that even a small amount now drives me off a cliff and I'm sure it must be the same for you. I get it. And it makes sense now that avoiding conflict is important - look at how much conflict you were forced into and how long and drawn out that battle was. No wonder we want a quiet life and lots of peace and harmony :)
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I hear you both.
What I went through with my brother was MINISCULE compared to what you each have been through. Yet I still avoid the room where the leftover papers from the court battle are stored in tidy boxes.
Boxes can't bite. But on some level, I'm not entirely convinced.
And Lighter, my apologies for hijacking a thread about Being Happy in the Moment with an opinion piece about medicine! (Should've popped that on your Resistance thread but didn't focus. Happy to move or remove it if you'd like, just say.)
love to you both,
Hops
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I hear you both.
What I went through with my brother was MINISCULE compared to what you each have been through. Yet I still avoid the room where the leftover papers from the court battle are stored in tidy boxes.
Boxes can't bite. But on some level, I'm not entirely convinced.
And Lighter, my apologies for hijacking a thread about Being Happy in the Moment with an opinion piece about medicine! (Should've popped that on your Resistance thread but didn't focus. Happy to move or remove it if you'd like, just say.)
love to you both,
Hops
It's mad that paper can be so scary! But battles seem to be fought on paper these days, instead of in arenas as they once were :) x
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Hops:
Every time I attempt to respond to your thoughtful post I do go on and on about the harm I've encountered through Western medicine, and the doctors who "practice" it.
I do go on to explain how Eastern and Energy based medicine has done us no harm, if they haven't helped, and they have helped in almost every case. If they haven't helped improve our health, they've provided information that's helpful.
I appreciate MDs who practice integrative medicine... they seem to focus on establishing health in their patients and sustaining it rather than treating symptoms without zero care for what caused the problem in the first place. I don't appreciate that particular kind of medicine.... treating symptoms, that is. It makes zero sense to me.
Since my friend had titanium plates installed in his face last week, I'm reminded that Western medicine has it's place. It might be the new kid on the block, but it's sparkly and gives us pain killers which are necessary when we go through surgery, like the two C sections I had. I've never finished a painkiller prescription, btw. I don't understand why I have to beg for them when I'm being scheduled for surgery and male addicts are given prescriptions, without asking. Is it because I'm female, and know I'll need pain killers after surgery and ask for them proactively? It's confusing, but that's been my experience since I was a teenager having my wisdom teeth out, which was a four "dry socket" nightmare.
I told myself I wouldn't start typing out examples, but apparently I can't help myself. I'll stop there, and crack on without erasing.
I tend to view Western docs as the mechanics who fix humans after they've been driven over their toxic load edge without any thought as to WHY they were heading toward the ledge in the first place.
Shouldn't that question be addressed? And, if the answer is YES, shouldn't it be the priority in medicine, and considered BEFORE disease sets in? I know there's not much money in prescribing kale to patients, but prescribing drugs that kill and break us down seems an unwise approach, IME.
Being proactive would begin with nutrition, and.....
::slapping forehead::.
::huge sigh::
Surely there's a balance to be struck?
Tupp and Hops, I will just say paperwork does suck, and I'm never happy about doing it.
Removing the legals from our living space was a tremendous relief. Having clean desk, floor, and chair space in the office feels like a luxurious addition to the house. We seek it out, roll around in it, create, play and work in it. I can honestly say.... it's better than Christmas.
Lighter
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I hear that, Lighter...totally agree.
I worked for the publishers of Prevention for a few years and it really IS the point.
Big hugs and back to happy in the moment! Hope you are.
You're so good at working very hard at coming back into that present balance.
We roil, we work it through, we calm. Rinse and repeat....
hugs
Hops
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Hi All:
Clicked through because I thought this was such a relevant topic. The idea of "mindfulness", trying to make the most of the current moment rather than worrying about the past or the future is a much buzzed about concept these days.
About a week ago, my sister-in-law--who is a decent but a pit pollyannish person--texted me and was clearly excited about an Oprah program she was watching featuring two very well-know motivational speakers. They were both touting the concept of "living in the moment". The catch phrase, "Live in the moment" has long been my SIL's motto. Her only child--my niece--who dutifully adopts everything my SIL and brother believe, even got a tattoo with the phrase "Live in the moment". They kind of pat themselves on the back that this is their life motto.
However, I tried to point our to her in her excitement that it is easy to live in the moment when most of your moments are trauma- and pain-free as her life has been. But when you deal with an illness or condition like depression or NPD...or chronic loneliness or betrayal and rejection....or abuse and disrespect in the workplace...or a combination of these things during your whole life..."living in the moment" is not a great place to visit. It is hard to see the joy in the moment of simply living when your life...and the moment that is your life....is characterized by these negative situation. If, however, you are like her, and have a life filled with joy and family and friendship and lack of life challenges to face...then it is much simpler to think you can just enjoy and appreciate every moment. She refused to accept or get this....as do most people who tout mindfulness. I am not at all rejecting the value of doing so...of trying to make every moment count in life, of trying to appreciate the moment you are in, rather than dwelling on the negative. I'm just saying it is not realistic to say that individuals can do this equally when their "moments" are so very different. Unfortunately, those whose moments in life are generally characterized by positive experiences tend to define those whose aren't as "negative", "pessimistic" or having a bad attitude.
These motivational speakers never really seem to address the reality of their "mindfulness" approach to life. By all means, everyone should spend time each day being grateful for what blessings they have. But, failing to acknowledge that mindfulness is difficult for those whose lives are not fairytales, is unfair and unrealistic. I think it is another example of the "haves" not willing to really see the pain and unfairness of others' lives and blaming them for it instead of acknowledging that had fate taken a different turn, they might have been us.
Sunblue