Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on January 16, 2019, 10:58:37 PM
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I thought perhaps this should go on Tupp's dark side thread, but realized in naming this one for the current season, I can just put whatever's happening here. Topic's anchored in time but not mood.
Mood's my problem at the moment. A week ago I felt energized, excited, motivated by the New Year (watching all of the Marie Kondo special helped). I did domestic things I hadn't bothered with in ages. I began in an ebullient mood; lasted days. Got my "new" couch back and got a shoe rack.
Then we had this snowstorm. Not a big deal, but it took days for sun to return. And by the third day, I had the dark kind of cabin fever (not restless but shut down, getting depressed). I didn't do any of the projects I could've been using that quiet time to work on. Reverted to immobility and feel weak.
I have something nice coming up...a date with a WRITER I have met online. Don't wanna get too worked up in anticipation, as my commitment to reality and avoiding fantasy is key for me to enjoy meeting anyone. But even though that's coming soon, my mood has kind of sunk.
Sometimes when I notice such a contrast, I wonder if my D's bipolar gene came down through me. I wouldn't be surprised though I've never had that diagnosis--just depression or grief. But it really is what I'd call a "swing." The up was great and this down isn't devastating, but the contrast is clear.
Another factor is the huge change in the social contract. Most people do not telephone any more. A few text but I can't do that for an hour the way some can. I literally dislike the cell phone. And more people connect through Facebook or texting than by email (which I like a lot). Alone at home in snow, with nobody checking in, feels sad. Not that I don't have friends, just...they don't call often.
Anyway, in an effort not to be discouraged and remind myself that all things change, including moods, I thought I'd dump this here. It'll be good to report something different in a few days.
(Doc G, sorry I haven't responded to your book yet. I will.)
Love y'all,
Hops
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Hops, I'm sorry to read this. People don't use the phone any more and it's been one of the hardest for me to deal with so I do get where you're coming from with that. And yes, several days trapped indoors with no-one calling to check you're okay or just to have a chat can be soul destroying. For me it highlights that I'm not top of anyone else's list. I've got good friends, I've got you guys on here, my neighbours are friendly - but I'm not anyone's special someone and I think it's hard when you don't have a significant other in your life (and I don't mean that in a romantic way, it's lack of family as well). It is hard, as are those big mood drops. It's so nice feeling good! Everything feels so much easier. Then it goes dark again and all those easy things suddenly feel so difficult.
Your writer chap sounds nice, though, and possibly an interesting contact/guide with your book, even if there turns out not to be a romantic spark. I hope you start to feel a bit better soon, Hops. Has the snow cleared now or are you still stomping through it? xx
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Thanks, ((((Tupp)))). You're spot on about phones, etc. Feeling better this morning, probably because I got decent sleep and have multiple activities today. My issue is so obvious it's embarrassing. I just have to connect with people every day or two at most, or I start to slide back into depression. I hope this isn't the case the rest of my life -- I've lived alone in an Appalachian holler, on the Eastern Shore, many places. I guess in this chapter of my life it's just not doable any more. Isolation's not good for me. Anyway, I work for four hours, then have a friend coming to walk and my group meets here tonight. I'll be wiped out but feeling much better after all that, I know.
As to the writer, I'm really looking forward to intelligent talk but that's it. No fantasies of him being a guide with my book...more the obverse. It works best not to share your work before you're ready, or unless it's a context you choose (like my fiction workshop group). I wouldn't want to share drafts or work in progress with someone close unless there's a moment where I realize they'd be the right sort of critic. Too easy to be shut down by well-intentioned but distracting criticism which, if it's insensitive or presumes too much, could undermine a relationship. My group has done well so far but in a new relationship I wouldn't introduce my ongoing work. Once I had a solid complete draft, sure, but not in the early, most vulnerable stages.
Fortunately I have a life's worth of poetry I can feed him one at a time! :lol:
I ain't in a relationship anyway. Just going to meet him for the first time tomorrow evening. I have enjoyed his emails so far, so do hope it goes well.
Hugs
Hops
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Sorry you're feeling low, Hops.
My only suggestion is.....
go with the flow.. try to stay in observer mode.This will pass.
Why assign judgement?
Lighter
ps Do you find you avoid feeling joy in small things? The smell of coffee in the morning? Cuddles with your pooch? If so, what do you think that's about?
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Thanks, Light.
Just as predicted, low mood lifted.
Work (being useful), poet friend visit (deep talk as usual and strong mutual support) and a wonderful Covenant Group here--despite weather 5 of the 8 made it. Topic was hope. Great insights.
I don't avoid joy. When depression seeps in it's more like smoke curling under a doorjamb. Mercifully, I no longer believe there's a raging fire about to burst through. I just needed to break my isolation from the storm sooner than I did. Doing that with better consistency is my fire prevention. And I'm okay. Thanks for checking.
Wooden Rack Happiness, Part 2: To chalk up another silly but satisfying faintly-Kondo moment, my new wooden (bamboo) shoe rack arrived. I am deeply enthused. My closet floor is clear, my shoes are purged to 10 pairs, and its simplicity and beauty make me happy every time I open the door.
Hugs,
Hops
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Ha... shoes! I purged mine when I moved and still have shoes that haven't seen the outside of my closet since they were unpacked. Hats too. I could stand to have fewer "hats" that I wear... the metaphorical kind. Only have one head... can only wear one at a time.
Tell ya what, this is kind of a difficult winter for me too. Different reasons, but the lowering skies and lack of sunshine remind me to take extra vitamin D3. It helps, as a preventative.
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Ahhh. Well, having a 1955 bedroom closet, about 3-4 feet wide, is very helpful for the simplicity-frugality minded. I actually love the limit. I don't want a lot of clothes and stuff! Don't need "storage" that ordinary furniture (a few things underneath) can't cover. I'm not attracted to the asceticism of minimalism, but looooooove what "Voluntary Simplicity" sorta sums up. (It's for the fortunate but dwindling, middle+ economic class who have the luxury of pondering that...not for folks living hand to mouth in REALLY TOUGH circumstances, like Tupp, who listens and loves and supports everybody here with amazing spiritual generosity despite an enormous difference in resources....) I digress. (With love.) Just...sometimes I feel sad that Boat (Bean, etc) disappeared, because supporting a VESMB member who had been homeless was very meaningful to me. I sensed it was perhaps a tiny bit of class despair, the reason she left? Plus her depression, working at a freaking call center. Could be wrong though. (Half my life and half my thoughts are/were wrong, which I'm mostly at peace with now. Might not be a bad average? She said, hopefully?)
Where am I. Right, SHOES! Oh, I was gonna write you to save me your shoe boxes because they'll help me Kondo! And hats! (Except I think you'll be talking flamboyant amazing artistic hats, whereas I'm more interested in knitted cap-hats that are cute enough to confuse the onlooker as to whether they're for warmth or sun protection versus trying to hide rampant glimpses of scalp up top.) Found one on Etsy and now have a go-to source, since she'll make one as needed!
I am absolutely babbling stream-of-consciousness here. (Or unconsciousness.) What's really happening is that I'm quite excited about meeting the WRITER man for our date tonight. He is the first man, ever, I've met online, whose emails I have unequivocally enjoyed. My best attitude will be Lighter's observation mode, but I can tell I'm a bit nervous because I'm planning to suck it in (belly) all night long. And The Hair freshly washed is disguised enough. I still get the odd "Your hair is..." compliment, and the old heart/ego purrs.
okay okay okay breaaaaathe
Tell you one thing. Knowing that I can come home from this first date, however it goes, and tell you patient VESMBers the blow by blow, is beyond comforting. And I am beyond grateful.
love y'all,
Hops
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OK..... suck it in. I know you must, so have at.
Just remember, if your lower back starts seizing, go to the bathroom, put your back against a wall or partition, and perform the dirty dance move.... it's saved me SO many times, and is the only way to stretch those lower back muscles, IME.
Have fun! Be curious, and release expectation!
Light
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If only I knew what the DD dance move WAS... :D
Didn't matter. He's got a bigger belly than I do (though he's much fitter, tending his 30 acres or whatever portion of that requires tending).
Date Report (pasted from what I sent my poet pal who demanded a quick update):
I just feel drained (wine); but it was fun. He's
smart, likable, verbal, and cute. At 75, he has
ALL his marbles which is a bonus. He's healthy
looking, and fitter than I am. Everybody is.
Not sure he's emotionally available even
though he shared a ton. Bit o' mansplaining.
He has a very tumultuous romantic/marital
history, which he openly shared about. A lot
of it sounded as though he's actually needy of
women but doesn't see/own that, so he was
frequently wounded when things ended. And
then he'd often have an Act 2, getting back
together, on and on. Not sure how reflective or
self aware he is. Good storyteller and chronicler.
I did truly enjoy his company, happy to again.
But I'm not sure he's interested in marriage.
I think he's not and I am.
And...I felt a bit as
though as open as he sounded he's still opaque.
Very content with his own company and doesn't
seem to be affected by loneliness. So...not sure.
Didn't have much of a sense of humor, sigh. But
not as rigid as my engineer-dates, like B. All
in all a pleasant and high-energy evening!
He obviously likes me and wants to do
something together Sunday. I'm thinking.
Dunno if I see red flags but I might. I think
if we just play together, for company, that
would be fine. If I want something serious
though, not sure he's mature enough to talk
that way about what he wants in life (besides
sex). Nice kiss when we said goodbye, and
I realize I could definitely enjoy him that way.
All in all, great date and possible new something.
But I'm going to continue to see what happens
online, because I'm looking for a long term partner
and marriage. No law sez I can't keep my options
open until someone is on the same page as I am.
And there 'tis.
xxoo
Hops
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The date sounded lovely, Hops. Just the thing for getting out, and feeling happy.
Bask in this man's robustness. Listen to what he has to say. Listen harder to what your intuition says. Honor your instincts, always.
About the Dirty dancing move.... it's not comfortable, and it's embarrassing, but it really stretches those lower back muscles, particularly when we've been sucking it in, IME. DD is lifting your pelvis UP, if your lying flat on your back, toward the ceiling, then relaxing it back into slight arch, then back toward the ceiling.... these are micro movements.... a matter of inches, moving ONLY your pelvis, nothing else. Repeat as necessary. It's a very helpful "dance" move; )
Lighter
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This may not sound like it but is positive news:
Woke up in the midst of tachycardia at 3am and after calming, realized that I was having a panic attack due to: 1) being over-excited about meeting the writer and 2) how it actually felt with him (the red flags that were flapping but that I was trying not to receive).
Not blaming or villainizing him. But...given how I am made and my vulnerabilities, I realized he is too self-absorbed to be present or manifest interest in Real Listening or curiosity in my direction. And I can't do that. Been too "unheard" or unappreciated in too many relationships prior. He had a very tumultuous romantic history which he was willing to narrate for me (glad I invited him to, but it was his choice) for almost four hours. I got to talk a bit, but it was mostly All About Him.
He'd written me immediately without a word about his impression of me, or anything warm...just with an invite to spend 3 hours with him Sunday.
I pondered. Do not dislike him. Just had a strong intuition that entering into a real relationship with him would leave me starving for tender attention that I don't think he is capable of. So I wrote him an appreciative, gentle, non-blamey...NO, but thank you for the time and delightful storytelling. (Have one of his novels in my purse).
He wrote back: Knock me over with a feather, can't believe how much I misread you. And I thought...no...actually you didn't read me. Because you're kinda not seriously interested in anybody else's book.
Lesson learned and time not wasted and insights great. Then I got an email from a nice widowed professor who actually paid close attention to what I'd written in my profile and responded to it with warmth and respect. So...not allowed to pre-fantasize, but I'm looking forward to meeting him next.
I've heard and laughed about this expression more than once, and I swear it's the only mentally-healthy way to approach the ghastly automated mate-hunt online...Keep the line moving. For now (it only attracts me during winter lonelies)...I'm gonna!
love and thanks for listening to this nonsense--
Hops
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How's conversation with the professor going, Hops?
Just ride the waves as they come.
Lighter
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The professor, who's invited me to go to dinner on the 1st, is a hoot. At first I was annoyed (by email) when he kept demanding to see my poetry and was ready to dive in. I wasn't looking for a poetry coach (or his approval) and was baffled by his assumptions that Of Course I'd send him my writing! Just because he wanted to see it!
I finally sent him two poems (he ain't reading my novel). After he read the second one he freaked out in terms of being over-the-top enthusiastic, so I felt less intimidated (plus flattered, if I'm truthful). He's Costa Rican, a big-cheese scholar but not stuffy. In fact he's VERY intellectual but he expresses it with huge delight and vividness. Truly big, expansive personality. I lost track of how many languages.
I hope we get along in person because he's a breath of fresh air. TBD....! Men. Still fun though.
Today I started my new exercise program and am very happy about it. The atmosphere is like the anti-gym but with terrific, supportive and tuned-in staff. This is such a find for me. I had no idea that without some significant cardiac event one could qualify for a facility/program like this. It's out of pocket but just a little more than a gym membership. So I'll do it for a few months and then perhaps head back to the Y with renewed confidence. And it's literally 5 minutes from me.
Hope all is well,
Hops
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Buuuuuuuuuuuut...
After a week or so when I was all motivated to stay tidy, feeling those great NY feelings...I slipped back into immobility, sedentariness, slipped off healthy diet, the usual. (Starting next week the exercise sessions are scheduled and that will help. But oy, these weekends.)
I've been sitting with it. I think the triggers were the writer date and aftermath (just ending it, which I am sure was correct)...but maybe some disowned anxiety. IF, say, enthusiastic Perfesser is the same in person, and something began...
I have fears about a man discovering not the "pretty, public" parts of my house, but the two rooms (bedroom and office) where I close the doors and hide my chaos and really bad ADD evidence. My house is lovely and welcoming in its public parts (I let the kitchen go to chaos periodically but can clean it up...and do, before anybody comes over). I have the nice lady who gave me the upholstery fabric coming over tomorrow afternoon, and will have to do a big kitchen cleanup first. That's okay.
But today I had nothing in-person happening and have spent the ENTIRE day feeling somewhat negative about myself...hiding in media.
Just wanted to say it. It's my weekend MO. And yet next weekend, I'll be meeting someone new. Maybe my fears of that explain this retreat. Probably do.
Thanks for listening,
Hops
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Breath, Hops.
In 100 years, will it matter that there's discord in those two rooms?
::shaking head::.
Nope.
You're harder on yourself than the Professor would be, IMO. And..... IF YOU REALLY wanted to clean up and organize those spaces, you'd find a way. I think we don't bc it's SO difficult, and we have other things to do. Pulling apart our lives, editing, sorting, getting rid of emotionally charged things.... it's a major deal. Please don't pretend it's not. It is. You have other strengths, and the trade off is having weaker points. You're human.
You're a great person.
You're a great writer.
You care a lot, and you're going to be great company for this fella when you meet. Just don't overthink it, and stop beating yourself up. If your body wants to rest, then rest. Stop looking at it like it's a defeat, or something negative. It's just relaxing into the cycle. Have it. Without judgement. I swear it has a message for you.
Let us know how dinner with the Professor goes!
Lighter
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Thanks, Lighter. That's really supportive and kind. I think I'll be okay.
All this makes clearer to me why I haven't previously stuck with the dating effort. The lonelies hit (every winter) and I resume the quest, then back away from it.
This time I hope I'll stick with it. I keep thinking about extraneous things like:
would I have to move, what if he's insensitive or dishonest, can I get enough alone time if I get into a relationship, blah blah.
Lately I've been telling myself I only need to look for one thing: not wooing or flattery or instant chem, but love. I am looking to give and receive, and build long-term, heart-love. Agape plus enough eros. The real deep cherishing kind of love with a decent, kind and honest person is what I want to experience and create. That's really my biggest criteria for a partner for the rest of my life. If that's absent, it would all become misery. I don't want delusion or crazy wooing (been there, result was ultimately a disaster). So as you say, I need to be in observer mode.
Ole boyfriend B called the other day with a pretext of sharing an article. He's clearly very lonely. I feel sorry for him and realize that he may just never be able to release or have insight about how controlling he is. No deep compatibility there.
So I need to keep listening to and respecting my intuition, I think. The one-date writer contacted me again today to see if I'd changed my mind, and he is still disappointed. I was encouraged to recognize that I still trust the gut decision I made and don't have any doubts or ambivalence about it. Told him so kindly, and that if our paths cross again I'd welcome him as a friend.
I'm hanging in and have a church meeting tomorrow and will see friends. Good.
How are things with you?
hugs
Hops
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Hi, Hops:
I'm not a good person to give advice about love. Deep. Abiding. Respectful. Reciprocal. Love. I've had it. The universe knocked it out of my paws. Wasn't supposed to be mine, not for long, and that's OK. There's something else I'm meant to do. I truly feel that. I've had more experience with the misery you speak of, unfortunately. I never got the formula down for finding lovely men. I think I feel.... relief. Just... relief. The thought of not dating again is a weight off my shoulders. No sadness or grief involved at all.
I really do think dating should be about boundaries, and learning to sit, without DOING, and paying close attention to what they're saying, are they asking questions, or waiting to speak? Are they tuning into your sense of humor? DO they have a sense of humor? Do they have empathy? Care for other creatures and human beings? Are they thoughtful, and kind to others? I find people typically do to us whatever it is they're doing to others. If they're not nice to others, eventually they'll be unkind to us. They'll show us who they are. We can be open to receiving that information, or we can engage in excuse making, IME.
Where the gut comes in, and I've thought about this quite a bit, is where we're experiencing confusion....
that place where we're feeling light as a feather happiness....
hope swelling in our chests, thinking about future joy with someone, bc this is a game we've played so many times before...
not good for us at all, always ends badly, not going to get us what we need, but deep abiding longing for something we can't have or doesn't exist...
vs
initial discomfort with being treated really well, bc it's not a dance we've danced a lot. It's not what's familiar, and it doesn't feel like home right off the bat...
vs
the guy doesn't SEE us, doesn't hear us, doesn't get us, doesn't care about us past how we make HIM feel, serve his needs, attend to his words, etc. It's a thin thing to feel that, even if there's other lovely distractions around the connection, and it's easy to pretend it's enough, but I find it just isn't. Eventually we're going to have to pay attention to ourselves, and get our own needs met. That usually doesn't go so well, IME. Not with the selfish ones, IME. Even if we do it without resentment... even if we embrace it with joy, and appropriate attention for the right reasons, it's usually a "thing" IME.
When to let the boundaries become more fluid, when to pull them in, and enforce them... cut bait and move on without judgment. It's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's just the way it was, and it's not the last thing. It's just what's happening on our way to what we're supposed to be doing.
I think our brains too easily get queasy, and confused, where our guts KNOW things, if we'd only listen. I wish it was easier to notice that confused dazed wishing and hoping mode, pull back, and engage intuition with economy of motion. Just cut to the chase. Save a lot of time.
It's the judging things BAD that takes up time, and spins us around I think. If we could just put our finger on whatever is bugging us, accept it, be grateful we figured it out quickly, then turn our happy attention to what comes next, without mourning, and feeling gut punched... that'd be better, yup yup yup.
Amused curiosity, sans judgement.... is a good thing, IMO.
Lighter
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the guy doesn't SEE us, doesn't hear us, doesn't get us, doesn't care about us past how we make HIM feel, serve his needs, attend to his words, etc. It's a thin thing to feel that, even if there's other lovely distractions around the connection, and it's easy to pretend it's enough, but I find it just isn't. Eventually we're going to have to pay attention to ourselves, and get our own needs met. That usually doesn't go so well, IME. Not with the selfish ones, IME. Even if we do it without resentment... even if we embrace it with joy, and appropriate attention for the right reasons, it's usually a "thing" IME.
When to let the boundaries become more fluid, when to pull them in, and enforce them... cut bait and move on without judgment. It's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's just the way it was, and it's not the last thing. It's just what's happening on our way to what we're supposed to be doing.
I think our brains too easily get queasy, and confused, where our guts KNOW things, if we'd only listen. I wish it was easier to notice that confused dazed wishing and hoping mode, pull back, and engage intuition with economy of motion. Just cut to the chase. Save a lot of time.
I felt really encouraged reading this, because first, it's so well put and second, that IS what I did (finally!) with the writer. I didn't feel like BADDING or WRONGING him...just listened to my gut and acted accordingly. I didn't have to shame or slam him, just respectfully held to my own decision, acknowledging he had a different point of view. It felt good. Unfortunate that it took a panic attack to get me there, but the whole process was swift, if not smooth. And looking back a week or so, I have calm.
I also think perhaps my decision (which took 5 months, not 5 hours) about B. was good practice. It showed me that in my current life, maybe the decades of being without a partner were not wasted after all. I really have been thinking and learning for a very long time, from my mistakes.
xxoo
Hops
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Hops, for what it's worth, I find weekends difficult. I need the quiet and the down time, as does son, so I purposely avoid making social arrangements or organising days out and concentrate instead on doing the boring but necessary household stuff and just resting. But I do find it boring and lonely and the phone remaining silent for the entire time weighs heavily on me sometimes. So I don't have any practical suggestions but I do understand how you feel :)
I think your anxiety over what Mr Right might think when he discovers your less than perfect self will diminish when you meet Mr Right. I think Mr Right, for you, will be so enamoured by your intelligence, your generosity, your creativity, your resourcefulness and all the hardships you have ridden through, that he won't give two hoots about your untidy bedroom or your lack of a filing system (as you wouldn't if the situation were reversed).
I think it's great that you didn't need to find something wrong with the writer - it just wasn't right and that's enough. No need for fault or blame, it just wasn't a good match and you told him calmly and kindly. Ten out of ten :) xx
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Hops, for what it's worth, I find weekends difficult. I need the quiet and the down time, as does son, so I purposely avoid making social arrangements or organising days out and concentrate instead on doing the boring but necessary household stuff and just resting. But I do find it boring and lonely and the phone remaining silent for the entire time weighs heavily on me sometimes. I think it's worse IF we frame it through the lense of the Facebook culture... ME ME ME ME WITH THIS CONNECTION ON THAT TRIP WITH THESE FRIENDS!all the time. We could be framing it as NOT having connections, for the sake of hearing the phone ring, hear people babble at us for non reciprocal attention, etc...bc that means we have the space, and calm in our lives to recognize a connection/person/people we DO want in our lives, assess it, and invite it in, or choose not to. My point is... the phone not ringing all the time isn't good or bad. It's not having the connections we desire, and if that means we STOP ourselves from allowing and inviting in the connections that we don't want, then it also means we're making ourselves available for what we truly desire, IMO. I'm not writing that out a third way; ) ::uncrossing eyes::. So I don't have any practical suggestions but I do understand how you feel :)
I think your anxiety over what Mr Right might think when he discovers your less than perfect self will diminish when you meet Mr Right. I think Mr Right, for you, will be so enamoured by your intelligence, your generosity, your creativity, your resourcefulness and all the hardships you have ridden through, that he won't give two hoots about your untidy bedroom or your lack of a filing system (as you wouldn't if the situation were reversed). I think deep connection is about loving someone's strengths, as well as their weaknesses. True connection prioritizes the strengths, and is patient and kind about all else, IME. When we pretend, have to act like someone else... that's a huge red flag, IME. It all goes back to desire, wishing and hoping, IMO. If we release expectation, we're free to BE our authentic selves, warts and all. Perhaps we showcase our strengths for dates, one, two and three, then, if this person is truly safe, and someone worthy of our trust, we venture into sharing our weaker side. Knowing when to share, and when not to, is important, IME. If we trust an unworthy person, then we can expect a certain kind of outcome, kwim?
I think it's great that you didn't need to find something wrong with the writer - it just wasn't right and that's enough. No need for fault or blame, it just wasn't a good match and you told him calmly and kindly. Ten out of ten :) xx
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I also think perhaps my decision (which took 5 months, not 5 hours) about B. was good practice. It showed me that in my current life, maybe the decades of being without a partner were not wasted after all. I really have been thinking and learning for a very long time, from my mistakes.
xxoo
Hops
See..... that panic attack could be framed in any number of ways. It's only negative IF you're focused on the physical aspect, IMO. I think the anxiety might very well have been your intuition doing a backflip.... refusing to be dismissed, forcing you to listen.... to break the spell of becoming confused.
And you did move through this with economy of motion, compared to the 5 months learning with B.
A thought.... take it or leave it.
You might have survived the first years of your life by giving the benefit of the doubt, and assuming the best of people who didn't deserve it.
Your brain doesn't see this as bad or good. It did it's job bc you survived. Reptilian survival brain doesn't care how you survived, or if you're healthy and happy... lower brain only cares that you're breathing. That was the mission. It succeeded, and sees no reason to change.
Any attempt to alter those pathways might feel like a threat (panic attack.)
Riding it out, refusing to let the anxiety force you back into old patterns, allowed you to calm yourself, engage your frontal cortex, and utilize problem solving skills to make sense of the situation.
Lighter
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Thanks, Tupp and Lighter! Very wise and thoughtful reactions, I really appreciate your perspectives.
Interestingly, I got a diatribe from the writer guy. He said my decision was NOT OKAY. His reasons are that I'm operating out of fear and that's not good for me...and I "threw him under the bus" and he was "stunned" and the date was "the best first date you've ever had" (!!!!) and ... and ... and ... all about mystery and possibility and potential...and reading it I was just feeling, thank GOD I trusted myself. He was reading me the riot act, basically, making all sorts of assumptions (he does not know me) and presuming too. Whew.
I was tempted to write back and say, this accusatory email has confirmed my instinct (which it most definitely HAS) but opted for: "I understand how you feel but will not go into a defense. I'm sorry you are disappointed but one date--even such an enjoyable evening--did not obligate either of us not to reconsider if we needed to. I did. When I was in the same painful position several times, I learned the path to peace was to accept that I did not control others' choices even if I don't admire them. Best wishes."
Boy was he steamed. Basically calling me a coward. And that's a huge red flag. His long narrative of his turbulent relationships was my warning. So even if it didn't fully hit me until the middle of the night, I'm so glad I heard it.
xxoo
Hops
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I've re-read his email several times and feel nearly spooked. I dodged a bullet there. I don't know if he's unstable enough to pose a threat, and do doubt it (he is 75)...but his entitlement and overall attitude of how-dare-you were emotionally chilling.
There was a dark undertone and I think it was just his emotional underlying issues. But I need that like a hole in the head.
So despite his charm, my intuition functioned well. Now I have another first date coming up, with the gregarious, over-the-top perfesser. Holy something, I hope I can hold out enough under what will I'm certain be a tsunami of charm, to have discernment and continue to observe well. I am uneasy because he was SO over-the-top effusive and, again, we haven't met.
It surprises me that when I say, I'd rather not correspond much before actually meeting AND go ahead and set a date for that...that some men just keep on writing. Charmingly curious but in a way relentless.
So with the perfesser, I've got to find out whether he didn't hear me or didn't listen or didn't care what I'd said. I don't want to dismiss him without that chance to meet in person, but after the writer...I'm concerned.
Is it only US who knows boundaries matter? I think a lot of it is many of us have spent decades working to understand ourselves, basic psychology, assertiveness, boundaries, emotions. And most of the men my age whom I meet have had active lives, including wives...that have somehow not required of them the deep, deep dives that we talk about here.
It doesn't monsterize them. But it does mean in a lot of cases we don't share some basic concepts that have been so hard won.
I ain't giving up on my quest. But it does occur to me now and then to ask myself whether I should.
xo
Hops
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Hops, perhaps your new job could be accompanying people on dates and telling them whether or not they should arrange a second one. Sheesh. Writer guy sounds like a very difficult chap to be around - charm really does disarm people and for you to see through that and say no thanks has obviously really bothered him. It frightens me when people like that attack because you didn't do what they wanted. And he probably isn't used to anyone seeing through him - I bet most people focus on the charm and nothing else. What you wrote back to him was beautiful, though, very polite and thoughtful. You did well not to write back and give him what for - your own charm offensive is the path to take, in this case.
I think I've missed a chunk with the professor, though (I'm not caught up on threads yet). What was it that he didn't hear? I can understand you feeling anxious about it - very natural after the writer chap. It is unsettling when people react like that. I think you will handle the situation well. Although - if you need to, perhaps you could postpone for a while to let the angry email abate a bit? Sometimes it's better to just get on with things, sometimes we need a bit of time, You'll know what to do.
As for boundaries - I think for many years (in the UK, anyway) it was very normal to raise children to do as they were told without question, not to answer back, not to have opinions and so on. It was also very normal for everything to revolve around the man, as the main breadwinner. When I look back I can't think of a single female relative, young or old, who had good boundaries. Nor can I think of a man who respected them. The situation was very much that the woman needed to be fluid and fit in around what the man wanted and, indeed, for many years, getting married was all a woman could do. There was no glittering career path or living alone, or raising children alone. It was a form of social suicide. So I think perhaps there are just generations of people who weren't raised with boundaries as part of their lives. I see it all the time in friends now; confident, intelligent, middle aged women who can't say no, who feel obligated to do what everyone else wants, who will tie themselves in knots to impress a new boyfriend because they don't want to be on their own.
So yes, I do think boundaries tend to only be a feature for those who've fought for them, worked at them and for whom they become so important. I can think of a thousand examples of times I've excused bad behaviour, ignored my instincts, put up with goodness only knows what, because I didn't think I had a right to insist on a certain level of behaviour and walk away if I didn't get it. Subservience is a word that comes to mind :)
Anyway - I think you've done well to see through writer man so quickly and I hope professor turns out to be a nice evening, if nothing else xx
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Me, too.
My (mild) perfesser concern was just that I'd expressed that I didn't like to correspond much before meeting, and he just kept rolling with more emails and questions (plus demands to see my writing). It didn't feel malevolent, just oblivious. He's in perfesser mode and obviously accustomed to expressing himself regardless.
Nice that he's expressing such eagerness but also, not. I do not want fantasy and correspondence before I meet someone in person. And half of them do not get it or ignore what I've said.
But I'm going to try to reserve judgement and remain open until I have a reason to push back. Jeez, he's a runaway train of poetry-praise and that's pleasant (he teaches poetry sometimes in his literature courses). But I'm sensing the contrast between being a successful scholar and having spent decades struggling in the real world as I have. He's clearly been in a bubble for a loooooooooong time.
Still. His charm just might be natural and non manipulative. Remains to be seen. And I should have faith in myself that I'll know how to assess it once we meet.
Wow. All this feels like WORK!
hugs
Hops
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Bleck, the thought of responding to the writer's nutso outburst is screwing my face up, my ears are popping. I don't think I would have responded. I don't think I would have invited another word from him. I believe I would have recoiled, like I was taking my hand out of a fire.
And sometimes it feels like I've had my hand in a fire, and it remembers that fire intimately. Like it was just yesterday it was sizzling, and I couldn't get it out.... couldn't get OUT of a dangerous marriage situation, couldn't get safe, or keep my children safe.
So no.... I can't for a second stomach entitled, controlling male behavior towards women. He's shown you who he is, and he's not a nice guy. He's likely everything you fear he is. My father used to say...
"think of the worst it can be, double it, then assume it's worse."
I think my father was very intuitive.
About the professor.... his marching on with written correspondence, when you're requested a meeting before it continues, is a red flag. I would hope you could address it, ask him if he understood the request, then question why he's been unable to honor that request... then listen to what he says BEFORE the face to face.
Somehow it feels like he's a child, unable to understand, or answer for himself. Is that how it feels to you, Hops?
In any case, he sharing high praise for your writing, and eager for your company. I think he should be, and that you'll be as interesting face to face as you were in writing. Enjoy the date, but remember that first red flag. Don't explain it away. He's a professor, yes, but he's intelligent, and a mature human being.
Don't let... "he's a professor type" be the first excuse you make for this man, Hops.
Lighter
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Hops, I think it's work too.
And I have enough on my plate to do, figure out, be/become, that I ain't interested in adding even a part-time "job" - or obligation - to my list. Perhaps the price of deciding to put myself (and my greater needs) first is being lonely sometimes. :shrug:
I used to tell Hol: "you have to kiss a lot toads before you find the magic frog"... and from the sounds of things, it still holds true. I can live with the fact that most men haven't done the kinds of deep dives we're familiar with. I can live the fact that their "needs" are so simple, and tend to be more physical than ours; but that means they also have a lot of unaddressed (unrecognized?) emotional needs.
I realize if they've made it to 60, and are still that way - then, nothing I can do or be will change that or educate him. So, then the question becomes:
he is the way he IS; can I live with that and be happy with that?
It simplifies the equation for me and atm, I just don't have the energy or emotional space for anything other than some genuine human conversation with some guy. I wouldn't waste my time going to meet him until I had SOME of that conversation FIRST. Just me and my druthers... and lack of trust in the intentions of people I don't really know and my ability to defend myself.
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the woman needed to be fluid and fit in around what the man wanted
Well put, Tupp. That's female socialization in a nutshell. And attempts to break out of that shell, despite women's progress, can still be ruthlessly punished. I so wish all women and all people of color would form instant solidarity movements, and we'd fix the world. It's frustrating to see "minority" groups compete and battle and blame each other at times, when if they united, everything would change for the better.
I agree that it's tragic, when you meet intelligent capable women who rush to stash their own lights under bushels, they've internalized misogyny so well.
I can't for a second stomach entitled, controlling male behavior towards women. He's shown you who he is, and he's not a nice guy. He's likely everything you fear he is.
I hear you, Lighter, and I think you are absolutely right about the writer guy. Thanks for saying this so directly: "He's not a nice guy." I picked up his mystery novel today, flipped through, and realized I couldn't enjoy reading it, knowing what I know about the character of the author. Into the recycling bag it went!
Fortunately, I haven't heard another peep from him, so I don't think I'll have to deal with him any more. And also fortunately, not without a little bit of struggle during our back and forth, I realize I really don't care what he thinks. (About the professor, so far I don't see him as a child...but definitely in a bubble. More tk...)
Perhaps the price of deciding to put myself (and my greater needs) first is being lonely sometimes.
I completely understand this, Amber. And most of the time, you don't sound lonely. Deeply engaged with your daughter, your farm, and some friends. I still hope you'll find new (unmarried and 3D) company sometime IF a time rolls around that you want it. And if you don't find the need becomes compelling enough, well, that's one of the wise things about you...you won't deceive your self about it.
If you were asked, What is the purpose of the farm and all its projects? What would you say?
Time for professor report. He is nice! Good things: He's very warm-hearted, speaks of his family (including mother and sister, crucial) with great affection, loved his parents and siblings and cousins and grew up in security and with copious love and support. Though I fantasized he might be macho since he's from Costa Rica, he was just born there to American parents. Very well to do family so he also grew up with lots of security. I don't know when I've met someone so grounded. Reminds me in one way of my Dad, also from an affluent family, who had the comfort and security that enable him to develop great ease with himself and with others because they always knew without one doubt that they were completely welcome in the world. In my Dad's case, he also had wonderful values and treated everyone else as though they were welcome too, so he was much loved. I have a sense that might be true of the professor too.
Less good things: It may have been nerves (I think I'm the first post-widowhood date, or perhaps the second) but he really really really doesn't seem to be able to stop the intellectualizing. To turn off professor mode and just be in the moment. His head is STUFFED with references and knowledge and names of writers and political figures in so many cultures I lost track. He's clearly a brilliant scholar. So that was both dazzling and frustrating, because he kept cutting me off. Never rudely, just as though he couldn't get out of his own head for very long to focus on my stories. Though he did calm down and listen with feeling when I told him about my D. He spoke several times about how sad it was and how I'm basically alone w/o family. Not with pity but with real empathy...and that's back to what felt good.
He said, I'm looking for friendship, companionship and empathy. That sounds very nice, and we did get along. But I wondered if he meant "and nothing else." In that case, I'd aim for occasional friendship activities, but need to be careful of my heart. He is special enough that I sense it could become more for me.
Big deal. In a year and a half when he retires, he plans to move to the other side of the continent where his sons/grandchildren are. He doesn't know how he'd deal with full retirement (he absolutely loves his work, and is clearly super engaged) and when a friend at a famous university in the Bay area said, then come here and be an adjunct professor! He thought, that's my answer. He's not concerned about income, clearly, but said he doesn't want to be cut off from being surrounded by the young. He loves loves loves teaching and is driven and excited by his work: many books, international travel and speaking engagements, guest lectures, etc.
So, for personal reasons, I do not want to fantasize. But here's one: I could happily live in the Bay area during winter. But I cannot at this point imagine a permanent move. So I might be setting myself up for hurt and loss and feeling uprooted, which I would hate...if I allowed something to grow.
There's definitely a heart-level availability and liking, I on both our parts. But he's a big personality with big plans and I can't see quite how that would affect me.
He said he'd like to see me again and I said okay. We'll make plans later.
I think everything except moving to California felt possible. I'll find out more about how the nonstop professorizing goes. I did gently stop him a couple times and he took it well. I said once wait, let me finish this story. And he said, I talk too much. And I asked, do you mind being halted or reminded? And he goes, No! I said, I think it might be necessary. I think he welcomed it...that he doesn't mean to be a fountain, and has trouble stopping it on his own. But sheesh, that could get a little tiring. At one point he zoomed back into scholar mode and I said, I like your mind but I've heard so much about your intellectual life, and I would like to know who you are as a person. He went, oh, personally? And then told me about his childhood, family, marriages. (#1 ended in divorce, 20 some years, sounded quite unhappy. #2 he adored and was very happy with for 14 years until her death.)
I can't know much more until we've seen each other again. And I'm aware of a little vulnerability here. I wonder how he'll respond to some more direct questions, that I'd like to ask him next time. Like, if you became involved with a woman here who was important to you, would that have any effect on your move? Would you be open to a bi-coastal life for a while? And, do you have any interest in marrying again? (Or maybe it'll be better for me just to speak about myself, as in: although I'd love to be a snowbird and travel, I have deep roots where I am that matter to me. And...(I'd say this soon, pre-attachment: I do want to marry again. It's a dream I never realized and I want a chance for that level of happiness. I don't want to wake up when I'm 80 and realize I'm alone for good.)
So, that's that so far. Very interesting and kind of exciting evening, but...much at stake, maybe. BTW, he's cute, too. A little pudgy but very relaxed about how we are...I do find him attractive. Even talked about my thinning hair which didn't seem to deter him at all. I told him I was going to be bald and that I was happy he isn't tall. He laughed. Seemed really, truly focused on character and human things.
Plus he knows Henry Louis Gates. I'm a fangirl.
Thanks for reading,
Hops
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Hops, he sounds nice :) It sounds like a nice evening and he sounds like good company. A friend of mine is with a guy who reels off endless facts and figures about all sorts of things - mind like a computer. When I first met him it really grated on me, but he's so lovely and such a sweet, kind hearted soul that I find it endearing now. My friend cuts across him when it's getting too much, as you did with your chap, and in the early days she felt a bit worried that she might become more like his mum (because of having to 'manage' him like that) but as time went on she found all his lovely traits really outweighed that. Conversely, he gives her a bit of a boot up the backside because she's a real procrastinator and spends a lot of time thinking about what she ought to be doing whilst doing something else, lol, so he gives her a bit of a practical poke when necessary and it works well for them. I understand your anxieties about the what ifs but am also glad that he seems so nice and I'm hoping date number two will be a nice one as well :) xx
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That sounds like fun Hops! I understand your focus on marriage, but in the meantime, why not just enjoy being around such an interesting person?
OH... and I think you're best off to talk about your feelings, what you want ultimately, from the "I" position. It won't spook guys as quickly, and helps remind ourselves, that the dance is also about us ladies getting what we want, too.
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Thanks, guys.
I need to settle down and get myself back into the present.
VERRRRY challenging not to fantasize yet I know it's the enemy!
(Seeing him again Saturday.)
Sigh,
Hops
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I'm glad you made a happy connection, Hops!
Really....
::nodding::....so glad: )
About the Professor's interest in marriage.... you met him on a dating site where you presumably listed your interest in marriage?
You guys should have some idea what the other is interested in, IMO?
If not, I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask him what his goals, for relationship, are.
It doesn't have to be weird, or spooky.
It can be a casual query...
IS he interested in being married again? The Professor likely has a very clear idea, in that big brain of his, IMO.
Listen to his reply... make little non judgemental noises without bringing up your POV. Just let him explain, and listen real close to what he says.
Believe him when he's done speaking.
Don't feel obligated to discuss it further at that time. Whatever he says, you can take time, think about what it means to you, and bring it up another time when you're ready.
Honestly, everyone on a dating site should SAY what they're interested in, and what kind of person they're seeking to SHARE that experience with, IMO. There's an expectation people are choosing people with similar goals, and interests, right? That's how I remember it going.
You're worthy of having goals, stating them, and expecting they be honored. Don't feel you aren't, bc you are, Hops.
lighter
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Thanks, Lighter. I really agree with you.
However, because of my experiences dating men in their 70s, I decided not to put that preference top-level on my profile. I've observed that many older men are frankly paranoid about gold diggers, and if they read I'm interested in marriage before meeting me, a lot will run for that reason. So I put serious long-term relationship or some such. My intention with all is to clarify within the first or second date that I do wish to remarry. We'll still have a nice conversation and enjoyable evening. So far, nobody has run away for that reason (I've usually been the first to extricate).
I will find a way to be clear with Professor about this on Date #2. Date #1 was a little dizzying because his comfort zone is VERY gregarious and nonstop literary references (it took more than an hour, at least, to get him off that and onto telling me about his life--which he did but was clearly not where he dwells).
I like the way you put it...asking him what his goals are. I'm not sure he'd think of that word, and it's apt. He did tell me, "I'm looking for friendship, companionship, and empathy" (big emphasis on the last). And in email said, "I'm so happy there is enough mutual empathy for us to continue getting to know each other." He does sound genuinely excited about me. Empathy may just be his high-falutin way of talking about agape, or attraction, or whatever. It's a nice list I endorse completely, but it lacks the terms one might associate with someone hunting permanance, such as commitment or partnership or marriage.
I'm going to do my very best to be upfront, calm and take care of myself. I am already pretty excited about him and it's critical that I not overlook missing pieces that are important to me to find out about. What I SENSE from him is a big capacity for love. But nice as that is, it's not (yet) the words I will rely on in order to figure out how much I should invest in a relationship with him.
Your advice to inquire and listen while remaining in observation and information-gathering mode is exactly spot on.
Reining in fantasy is an ongoing job for me, when I like somebody this much. So perhaps I should cancel the moving van? :lol: The one thing that would be hardest, and that sobers me, is how I'd feel if I let myself fall in love, and then within two years he's sold his house, packed the moving van, and taken off for California and his sons/grandkids/adjunct post. He has a plan and it's that. And since he mentioned it on our first date it's important that I take it seriously.
Whewwwwwwwwwww. That could be a grand adventure or misery.
xxoo
Hops
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Hey Hops, life has a way of interfering with plans. If he's not retiring two months from now - realize that what he wants might change. Maybe you'll be the cause of some of that; maybe not.
Hol is spending a LOT of time with new sweetie over the past couple months. One day last week, he said he had a lot to do, so was begging off coming over here. She had a bit of panic and insecurity over it... and I had to talk her back to reality. She's coming out of the day to day routine of having someone living with her and IN a relationship. They're still in the getting to know each other phase - and enjoying each other and spending time together, with no strings attached right now.
That makes it safe for both of them. As long as she remembers Steve isn't Matt. LOL.
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Holy guacamole, Hops.
I tried to write this out, long hand, and it just boils down, for me, to the Professor's use of words. Both of you understand what the word empathy means?
Empathy vs. Sympathy. Empathy is the ability to experience the feelings of another person. It goes beyond sympathy, which is caring and understanding for the suffering of others. Both words are used similarly and often interchangeably (incorrectly so) but differ subtly in their emotional meaning.
The Professor chose the word EMPATHY with care. He topped it off by emphasizing it..... and I think he knew you'd respond well to it, which you have. His entire message was positive, and hard to find fault with, right?
Hm..... he's looking for a companion with the ability to experience his feelings..... to the point of caring and understanding his suffering, and also his apparent interest in the literary arts. I say this, bc I didn't get that he was extending mutual empathy during that first date, as priority, if at all. You were there, I wasn't. Maybe he did.
I admit I'm judging him more harshly, regarding word choice, than you are. I don't think he's confused "empathy" with "agape, and attraction." I think he chose his words carefully, aimed them at you, specifically, and that it's likely HIS truth.
Whether it goes both ways, I don't know, but I agree he's not choosing words that in any way point to his seeking "marriage."
Companionship, and friendship are words that mean NOT MARRIAGE, IME.
On the upswing, I think it's good that he's not coming right out and claiming interest in marriage just to get your ears to the table, or you in the sack, whatever it is he's seeking with you, and I think he absolutely is interested in spending time with you. I'm just not sure if he's interested in spending time being heard and seen by you, to the exclusion of all other relationship.
I'm glad he's an interesting chap. I'm glad his eagerly seeking your company feels good, and gives you confidence about what you have to offer, bc it's A LOT, IME. You're a beacon of happy light, and companionship, Hops. Don't shine it on unworthy or otherwise unsuited suitors.
If you do, it'll be more lessons about what you want. Nothing more or less. Not good or bad. Just information.
Listen to what this man says, bc I think he's choosing his words with overt care. Maybe ask him what his definition of empathy is.... in an IM, or something?
Have fun on date#2: )
It's not time to worry about his plans for the future. You're still trying to figure out if they include a companion/friend at this point. First things first.
::nod::.
And have FUN!
Lighter
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Thank you, Lighter. I appreciate this a lot.
Do you think he might also be intentionally avoiding "marriage" because it's under a year since he lost his wife?
Well, I think guessing is no good. I will need to be calm and comfortable and ask. But ask soon, else it becomes a thing avoided until it's too late for disappointment.
Hope not, but we'll see! Off to see him in an hour, if I don't have too much wine I'll report back tonight. Otherwise tomorrow.
xxoo really appreciate this close listening,
Hops
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You're right, Hops.... guessing is a waste of time.
The Professor is who he is. He's capable and willing to engage in monogamous connection, or he's not.
He's willing to be honest about it, or he's not.
Listen to what he does, and have fun.
There's no mistakes in this. Only lessons, and information: )
Neutral observer mode.
Lighter
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Had a wonderful time at dinner.
Same pattern: He talked 3/4 of the time and struggled to listen. BUT. He's a great raconteur and once I gave myself over to enjoying him, I really did enjoy his stories.
I didn't ask The Question. But he repeated his focus on moving, and I doubt it'll change.
After I was briefly talking about my pooch he said, I want to get a dog after I retire. Sounded like a separate life.
So I really just enjoyed, ate well, drank good wine, laughed and listened. I did get a few stories in, and for some reason the vibes between us are happy. He asked if I'd come to a dinner party he's planning to host in March. I get the feeling he's delighted to have a female companion do that with him. So who knows, maybe in his own mind he IS rehearsing me as a SO.
I have no idea. I guess it'll take more time to find out his sense of what this relationship is about. And at some point, I'll just figure out the right time to tell him what I'm looking for. Meanwhile, it's fun. But it'd probably be a good idea to stay right smack in the present.
I just couldn't figure out how to interrupt the flow to indicate to him that I'm not only looking for a dinner companion.
Hugs
Hops
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Well, maybe this will be a happy dinner party connection for you, Hops.
After that, who knows?
Romance, or friendship, or someone to visit in California for a week, bc you get along THAT well?
The only thing you know for sure is that he's a good story teller, and might throw a great gathering (where you meet other interesting people you connect with.)
His purpose could be amuse bouche, or something more.
At least he's fun.
The journey continues.
Lighter
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Thank you, Lighter. A lot.
You are inserting a lot of sanity and self-control where I lack it.
I truly appreciate your feet-on-the-ground, mindful of gravity, don't-operate-from-fear approach.
Much thanks!
Hops
PS--Next date Saturday. I may throw him a curve ball. (Meaning, bring up the personal curiosity, about his goals for himself in relationship. No lathered up anxiety, but bring it up sooner than later. I don't want to be entertainment only. I have a sense it could be more, but stakes are pretty big.)
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Hops, do yourself a favor and lower that bar. You REALLY don't know him. You know his stories somewhat now. He is going to be a more complex person than you're drawing him in your plans.
Give him the benefit of doubt too. But still - ask him your question. You're required, due to your needs and situation. Start the conversation. One evening might not be enough to answer the question completely - especially if he lost his spouse in the last few years. IMO, guys have a longer process working through that loss (generally) than women do. Somehow we anticipate this. Even when we're still not ready as it happens.
You just seem to be really over-thinking these encounters. Not exactly enjoying yourself or their company; too much analysis and evaluation about whether or not this guy'll be your prince charming. (Sorry; that's kinda straight up and overly forward.) Like a job interview. Try seeing him as a person... and for a moment, just BE with him. Forget the intellectual side of things. For a moment. Just BE.
How does that feel?
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Thanks, Amber.
Not too forward at all.
Kind of the dash of cold water in the face that I NEEDED.
I appreciate this and am going to try to chill out.
Been driving myself nuts with anxious projections
and you're right, it's waaaaaaaaaay too soon.
Much gratitude,
Hops
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I'm definitely projecting something I see in myself, too Hops.
It's why I don't think the online dating thing is going to work for me. I quickly rule out the majority of "matches" for one reason or another - either they have no profile built; or it's boilerplate suggested by the site; or - well the reasons are numerous. The biggest gripe I have is sites that post astrological signs... LOL. I have a distinct (and wholly unfair) predjudice based on previous guys I know, in certain signs. It's silly and juvenile on my part; and I still can't seem to get past it.
I still "window shop", and taking Hol's advice I do reach out to all who peak my curiosity or interest. But no replies. Makes me wonder if they're even real people - or just "filler" profiles created by the site to further analyze my preferences - conscious and unconscious. I suspect that's the case.
It wouldn't be hard at all for these sites to encourage online engagement in conversation, getting to know you discussions that still provide safety, anonymity, and low-risk initial impressions. But it DOES then require some responsibility on the individual to take part in that. The "messaging" is a paywall feature on most sites... and even jumping through that hoop, there's no guarantee that the guy ponied up his subscription dollars to be able to message back - or simply isn't interested in you.
That is a negative experience for me and discouraging to even frequenting the site to look at pics. I'd rather go to the animal shelter and pick out a dog... even though I currently have a 75 lb one in my lap... LOL.
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Ya, just relax, pull back, and ask your questions without making it a whole thing. Maybe he'll give you more info than you want.
Maybe.
In any case, put on music from a time you loved, pick out clothes that make you feel good, look at the restaurant menu ahead, and enjoy every sip of wine..... everything about it.
I hope there's a fireplace at the restaurant.
I like places with fires.
Ones with chess boards please me very much too.
Lighter
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Hi y'all,
A lot of the anxiety has tapered off, and I'm relieved. I was starting to panic. The reason it's better is that at least now I think I understand WHY.
An insight rose up while I was sitting with my T this week. I realized that the reason I've been so anxious since meeting him is that after so many losses, my entire family capped by losing my only child...I have come to associate real love with heartbreak. It's a risk for anyone, of course. But those bells are going off now. The good part is I now understand that swirl, where it comes from. The challenge will be to accept there is fear, and be vulnerable anyway. Find the balance between protecting my heart and walling it off. Tough one. I didn't realize how risky it feels, yet I would like to brave the risk.
His moving plans factor doesn't help. It could be a red herring, though. I get very deeply attached to place and community, I always have. But that's because mountains and friends have never broken my heart. They're just family. Saying since 1999, I don't know about the rest, but I know my roots are HERE, I am HOME, being here and being from here are parts of my identity I can draw strength from.
As a poet and hence outsider, after a deeply lonely childhood, I've craved belonging all my life. I found myself able to create it by identifying so deeply with place. That said, folks do go bi-coastal, right? So we'll see what happens.
I feel better and am looking forward to two dinners with him this week! Invited him over for wine before dinner tomorrow night, and he is ready to meet pooch. She'll suss him out.
Hugs
Hops
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How was Saturday's date, Hops?
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Thanks, Lighter.
He was laid low by a horrid cold sweeping through his department, so we postponed it to tonight, and that's been sidelined by the snow topped with ice thing that happened (but will melt off by tomorrow). He tried to fetch his mail and slid all the way down the driveway. Risk of falls around town tonight is clear, loads of places closed. I told him we should "be mindful of our delicate ankles" and stay home. So we're rescheduled for this coming Sat.
He's emailed several times today (we share an antipathy for phones) and has invited me to a dinner party at his house with his colleagues and a visiting international poet. Looking forward to it! Offered to help, curious how that goes.
Hugs
Hops
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I don't think I've been very honest here.
The insight with the T was true, looking forward to seeing him is true, feeling good with friends or when meetings take place is true.
But only half of it.
The other half is that while I am dealing with this truth, where the fear comes from, I have reverted to the G*d d*** pasttime that is devouring my life. Hiding in my room (less work scheduled lately), watching endless hours of mindless stuff, reading media, overeating, and not going to exercise.
The phone doesn't ring often. People just don't call to chat much, and I can't think of whom to reach out to other than those I already talk to enough (more would be too much). So there is lots and lots and lots and lots of silence, and long days without contact (unless something's scheduled). So, when I am alone, I am utterly dysfunctional. I keep the public areas tidy enough (had a meeting last night) that the house looks cheery. But the two rooms where my life really takes place are a mess.
I know this avoidance cannot go on without serious consequences, physical or financial or relationshippal. (Made that one up.) And I am glad I have a T to talk about it with. But I am discouraged.
I had a chair recovered and it looks good. I am anxious about him coming over for the first time. I have gained back 5 pounds I'd lost and my hair is sliding out of my head. I am deeply upset over the balding, which has increased. I have lost confidence in beauty and it adds to deeply vulnerable feelings.
That's pretty much it...kind of a general dumping of stuff I usually don't like to say aloud, though I have here, safely before, so just doing it again.
I know I'll be better shortly. I really do. I am just so frustrated with my lack of will. I want to actually make progress. Progress. But evidently I don't want it enough. It makes me dislike and disrespect myself.
Sigh,
Hops
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Hops, it makes me sad to see you writing that you dislike and disrespect yourself. I often feel the same way that you do - my physical life seems to go out of the window at times. I know I should be doing x, y and z but I find myself still sitting an hour later watching YouTube clips about cute cats or repeats of some old comedy that I've already seen a dozen times. I do go long days without contact with people and sometimes the effort of reaching out is also too much, so I just sit in the quiet with the telly on.
But equally I am aware that when I'm processing deep emotions, veeery old pathways, facing fears and truths, trying to change - whether it's conscious or subconscious - it's almost like my brain and body can't do both. I can't do all the deep work and also tidy up, phone a friend, cook a decent meal. It feels a bit like climbing a mountain whilst also trying to do laundry and vacuum the carpets.
The only thing I can think to suggest (as it seems to be the only thing I can manage in those times) is to do something for five minutes. Just five minutes of sitting by an open window breathing in fresh air - then close the window again. Five minutes of tidying away dishes - then back to the telly. Five minutes of stacking papers into a pile or shoving them in a box. Then back to the newspaper. It doesn't make a huge change for me, but it makes me feel like I've done something.
I think you are making progress, but I think sometimes we can't see the progress we're making. I was talking to someone about stress the other day. As you know, I have a lot of it in my life, and I decided to try cannabis oil to see if that would help. I was discussing different options with the chap in the shop, and he pointed out that, with things like stress, sometimes you don't realise something's helping until you're in a stressful situation and it doesn't stress you out as much, or you recover from it quicker. I think that's an example of how we can be making progress without realising it. Dealing with fear, deep seated fear, can be so draining, it's very hard to keep doing other things as well. Which doesn't help - I know you want to be feeling better and getting more done and I understand that. But equally I think what you're going through is perfectly normal and healthy. I don't think it's dysfunctional - although I understand you feel it is - I think we experience things in a different way to the way other people see them a lot of the time.
I think the first few times chap comes to visit you can keep him in the public areas. He doesn't need to see your untidy rooms - that can be your secret for now :) I also don't think that he's going to notice you've gained five pounds as it's winter and you can wear plenty of layers. I know you prefer not to have the extra weight on but I think you've got plenty of time to lose it again.
Hair loss is very difficult to cope with. Can you make an appointment with a hairdresser to discuss options for short, sassy styles that won't make it so apparent? I've worn mine short for years now because it's been falling out - it suits me much better and the fallout is much less noticeable? It's difficult to be forced to make those changes, I find, but at the same time a good haircut can do so much for us. Do you have a nice hairdresser you can sit and have a chat with and be guided by their recommendations? You don't need to make a decision on the day, just get some advice, go through some pictures and then have a think about what to do.
I hope a little something can nudge you out of the rut and put a little spring back in your step again. Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with conking out from time to time, but I know you don't like it so I hope a little something can shift things for you xx
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Hops, I so get the messy living space, and food issues right now. I've not been doing great with food, or weight myself... not since the letters from In Laws, which I'm trying to grapple with emotionally, and maybe getting ahead of it now. Honestly, for me, it's not about down time.... or how I use it. It' s about my head space.
Your post seems to hold so much fear (((Hops))), and that comes and goes for me.
I found Biotin was helpful for thickening up hair, and making it healthier/shinier if you haven't considered it. I'm magically feeling better in my body, no makeup, weigh more than ever, hair whatever, and noticing how refusing to buy into cultural standards, really for the first time, FEELS. It feels OK. I'd like to stay in this head space, even if I desire to organize/create more sacred space in my living space..... I want to be at ease in this body. There's nothing else to do about it, IMO. I'm getting older, and that's OK. I'm not as strong, and that's OK too. I don't have to have the hair and body of a teenager.... bc I'm not supposed to. Society, tv, magazines sends these insane messages into our heads from everywhere, and it's just not acceptable, IME. It's bad ju ju, and my definition of beauty has decidedly shifted from that silly self imposed cultural standard that never made sense. It just made us better victims, and I'm super comfortable being ME.... not the better victim, if that makes sense. ME is me, not my outer appearance. Me is my inner world, and the work I do. Me is how I enrich other people's lives, and how I connect with those people. Sometimes watching Curiosity Incorporated Youtube videos... particularly loving WE BOUGHT A HOARDER HOUSE... or the POTTER'S HOUSE..... I prefer Potter's house, is ME, and I'm OK with that too.
I want to knock all that fear and judgement out of your hands, Hops. I want you to pull back, find more curiosity, and know you're good enough. YOu always were.
Our culture idolizes really messed up ideas, and I think we're better off if we don't take it in. This is our time on earth. It belongs to us. We might as well dance by the Amazon fire, and enjoy our faux fur boots while we're wearing them. Who cares if other people don't dance, or celebrate bonfire style, or wear Amazon battle gear? WE DO.
I'm curious about the upcoming dinner party.... people who share literary interests, and good food and wine.... likely everyone there will have their own worries about who they are, and what they're falling short on with Vogue standards in mind, etc.
::blowing raspberry::.
So go, and see how they dance. You can show them how you dance. Maybe you'll have a really good time. I'd certainly lean into it with curiosity about how great it could be. And it could.
No matter what happens with the Professor....
No need to fear. Even if it's not OK... it's OK, ((Hops)).
Lighter
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Hmmm. Find myself nodding over Tupp's post about energy vs deep emotional work and not trying to do both at the same time. I like the 5 min. strategy - I'm up to a few hours at a time, using the same "trick" on myself.
Lighter's right about just doing YOU, too. And yes, society is especially hard on us "mature women"... and I'm adding two hands full of flipped birds to Lighter's raspberries for that crap.
Now. Solitude. My friend - but it sounds like not so much yours. I don't feel badly when I have long stretches alone. Might get anxious over Hol, if we haven't touched based in a day or two - especially when I'm dogsitting.
I do get restless. But that's when I see something that I just jump up and dive into - because I've wanted time/space to DO IT. Or, I do something that I much prefer doing all alone. Or that I just enjoy - but Hol not so much. There are still things that I notice I'm resisting doing... but truthfully, between Knuckles and Hol's comings/goings... running up & downstairs to check on the fire, splittling kindling & moving wood or shovelling snow... I haven't had too much "me time" at all this winter. What little I've had - I've put into cooking because I'm enjoying it more now.
The way I'm dealing with the things I'm resisting, is asking myself if:
a) do I really care about and WANT it done?
b) will I thank myself for taking of the job, and also in the process, taking care of me?
I think B is more motivational for me. I'll gripe about A until the cows come home, and still resist doing it... until I add B. Then I just dive in and do it.
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Tupp, thank you. This rang true and was a powerful comfort to read:
I am aware that when I'm processing deep emotions, veeery old pathways, facing fears and truths, trying to change - whether it's conscious or subconscious - it's almost like my brain and body can't do both. I can't do all the deep work and also tidy up, phone a friend, cook a decent meal.
Given how hugely I respect you and the way you are processing more than I ever conceived of, to see this commonality, and this common sense...was huge. Yup yup.
Lighter, yessss.
for me, it's not about down time.... or how I use it. It' s about my head space.....Your post seems to hold so much fear (((Hops))), and that comes and goes....
Such clarity and seeing what is, is. Thank you. Head space is the only space. Yes.
Amber, I like this. A simple alternative way to ask myself a simple prioritizing query.
a) do I really care about and WANT it done?
b) will I thank myself for taking [care of] the job, and also in the process, taking care of me?
Y'all blow my little mind, Amazons. I love you. And here's how The Date just went:
It was my turn to pick a restaurant. This town is paved with them. So I read about a NEW one, Central American and Spanish, and booked us. (He grew up in Costa Rica and had a house in Spain.) He LOVED it! Usual pattern of him madly telling stories. But beforehand...he came to my Most Humble House with milkbones in his pocket, patted Pooch the entire time and was so loving with her (she was Mata Hari at first but gave it up since he was such an easy sell). We drank wine and I'd bought fancy cheese, yakkity yak. And he was blown away by my grandmother's gorgeous piano, seemed to really enjoy the space. Off we went to the restaurant downtown. Yakkity yak. MAN, this guy has stories. I just rolled with it. Food was fabulous, yummy wine too. As we drove home he said something that lifted a big cloud: "Would you ever move?" (While also talking about how he was very happy about having discovered me on that website. And I shared I'd turned off the profile because I don't "juggle people.") I said, "I could never rip up all my roots here, because they're deep. But I could see myself being bicoastal."
He looked really happy, and we did hand-holding and a brief sweet kiss for the first time.
HUH. HUH HUH HUH.
Dayum. Y'all.
Blushing and feeling pretty great,
Hops
(I could never have survived these terrors without you. I mean it. I'm GRATEFUL.)
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I'm glad you had a good time. Remember, dear...
- his incessant chatter may be because this is all new for him too; he probably hasn't dated in decades either and doesn't really feel comfortable YET, talking about much personal stuff.
- but it does seem as if he's relaxing around you a bit; and for now - don't try to read his mind about any questions he asks. You're just TALKING. Getting to know each other.
- it does seem as if you're learning to simply enjoy yourself with him, instead of putting him through the Spanish Inquisition - LOL. It's kinda nice to simply let new relationships organically develop on their own - with surprises along the way rather than "manage" them. Hol is trying to do the same thing, with her new sweetie. We always need to have some history to apply hindsight to, for making decisions or even perceptions that are based on some concrete; something we've seen, heard, felt or experienced.
Someday, maybe the shoe will be on the other foot and you can coach me through all my own silliness over a new relationship. Hope springs eternal - and spring is ALMOST here.
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Whoo boy, HOps.
The date sounded....
good.
I'm just tickled ya'had fun.
Lighter
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Thanks, ((((((((((((y'all))))))))))))).
Amber, you're right. It's such a relief to have gotten through my inner Spanish Inquisition. That was all fear-based, but it did matter to me to get clarity that he wasn't just looking for a companion until he pulls the plug and moves.
Just Talking, getting to know each other was a good reminder too. I've gotten myself to lower my guard and for some reason, letting vulnerability in feels right. And I should know, having gotten through heartbreaks before, that I'm brave enough to risk it for something this promising.
Lighter, thanks, it WAS fun. A little note of seriousness is creeping in too (given our ages, one can't take too long) but the fun is feeling great.
He's meeting my close poet friend Thursday, she'll have a glass of wine with us before taking off for a workshop. Then he and I do dinner together, same place. He invited me to also go to a pipe organ concert (in my childhood church, coincidentally) on Friday night. I wrote him "two nights in a row? Really?" (since he has two round trips for professional reasons this weekend). And he wrote back, "Yes! How can there be too much you?"
I'm all chuckles and giggles for now. Feeling something really happy. Early days but y'all got me through big panic that came from old wounds. I'm feeling braver.
THANK YOU, each of you. So much.
Gratitudinously,
Hops
PS Something about getting past the Big Old Fear also liberated me about the dysfunctional stuff. I hopped up, shopped for the first time in ages, did laundry, and have taken good walks two days in a row. BETTER!
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I'm glad you're feeling better, Hops, and that the fear related paralysis has subsided. I'm looking forward to hearing more :) xx
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How did meeting with close poet friend go, Hops?
Lighter