Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lighter on July 04, 2020, 11:04:15 PM

Title: Green burials
Post by: lighter on July 04, 2020, 11:04:15 PM

There's alternatives to the traditional, toxic embalmed, encased in boxes burials where the bodies and boxes don't degrade, take 50 years to liquefy tissues leaving behind mummified skin and tendons and bone.   In 80 years the bones finally break down, and I guess that's about it, but blech.  Death avoided, or it must feel that way to those who choose this for themselves.   

Not that I don't understand the people who are comforted by the traditional burial service.   I've looked into their eyes and SEEN the pain of not being allowed to have those final moments to SEE and visit with a loved on in an open casket, even though the dead loved one would have HATED being seen diminished by illness, and flattened by departure of spirit.  I don't find comfort in it, outside placing something personal in the casket, bc it's just sad... thinking of them there... all those years, alone.... dissolving and falling apart... no return to the earth.   No giving back to the world that sustained them their entire life.  It seems wrong to me.

I have in mind either being dissolved in a  pressure cooker.. wet cremation, which takes about 3 hours of heat, 70 gallons of water and a little Lyme, 8 hours total, to get to the point one may be poured down a drain, which doesn't leave anything difficult for family members to do in that process.  I find the idea of handling and disposing of a body very disturbing, esp when being held up for 6 or 8 or 15 Thousand Dollars, which is considered normal in this culture.  Just crazy. 

So... a drain.  Pouring.  Nothing for the family members to struggle and suffer over.  Better,  IMO.

Being buried in a mushroom shroud... not a mushroom cat suit, bc..... women of a certain age,  and all that.  The cost of this product is 1,500.00, plus whatever space the body is buried about 3 feet deep.  I'd choose fetal position..... hmmm... I guess you'd have to be placed in whatever position you'd want to be in, while you were pliable.  There's a link about this product below... may have to copy and paste.

There are natural fiber baskets and clean wooden boxes, sans chemicals, that break down cleanly, along with bodies wrapped in linen, sans embalming chemicals, buried in GREEN cemeteries... in forests and meadows, 3 to 4 feet deep for optimal decomposition.  The earth is being poisoned in so many ways.  Why do we continue to poison it with our insane rituals.  Oh.... right.  Profit. 

So, take a bit of my hair.... photograph my hands and feet and iris.... if you want to remember those things, or compare them to your children's someday, but don't put me on display or mumify me spend a lot of money creating trauma in your life.

I think, there should be new rituals.  If it was up to me we'd outlaw embalming chemicals, and traditional caskets and traditional burials.  It would all go green.  All of it. 

People can still put loved ones on display... on dry ice... they can still select natural fiber containers for burial.  That chioce can be a caring ritual. 

So... another choice.... burial pods.
https://www.facebook.com/CapsulaMundi/photos/a.391119180995163/2824123291028061/?type=3
 Plastic pods bodies or ashes are placed in,  made of biodegradable plastic, which breaks down as a tree, planted above, begins to take root.  The cost is about 460.00 dollars... comes in two neutral colors.  Don't think so... the idea of being IN plastic, encased... seems sweaty and suffocating.  Odd my mind goes there,  but it does.   

Give me a mushroom shroud.   http://coeio.com/coeio-story/ 
I like this one OK.

Or water cremation.  Not sure how much bone is left, to be pulverized if the family wants it, but nothing about it really bothers me. Much better than burning an entire body down, and handing the remains over the family.  Really, pretty macabre, now that I think about it. 

I really loved this quote... not sure which site I found it on, but I'll put it here.   This thread is a good place for it.  Maybe on Mindfulness and Codependence too.


 

"To live in this world you must be able to do three things: to love what is mortal; to hold it against your bones knowing your own life depends on it; and, when the time comes to let it go, to let it go."
— MARY OLIVER
FROM “IN BLACKWATER WOODS”

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Meh on July 05, 2020, 03:11:38 AM

It's unclear if it really breaks down heavy metals, the seller's website is vague about that. The fungus is also common so it's probably already in the dirt to start with. So save your money? "Infinity mushroom" is not a scientific term. As far as I can tell she is selling conceptual art but the actual value of the mushrooms is probably $5.00 worth of rotting produce.

If it wasn't so disgusting we could probably have giant compost bins that bodies get tossed into and it would probably do the exact same thing because of all the fungus there. The dirt is full of fungus anyhow.

What if we all get embalmed with french cheese?

This is morbid stuff. I feel like I'm being insensitive to someone. In the grand scheme though I don't see how these mushrooms suits will make one iota of a difference.

She should really be calling it mold and fungus. It's probably already in your refrigerator.

Man maybe I should erase this. I'm not sure if I can talk about it.

But yeah save your money give it to your kids or a cause. Or if you want to support an MIT grad financially then buy a suit?

It is interesting though.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/iron-eating-fungus-disintegrates-rocks-acid-and-cellular-knives

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Twoapenny on July 05, 2020, 04:42:41 AM

Simple burials are quite common here, Lighter - willow casket, tree or plant to mark the spot - in you go.

I've donated my body to science.  Poor buggers.  I do sometimes find myself thinking when I'm eating biscuits that I should be mindful of the fat the medical students will have to cut through if they're using my corpse :)  I should try to make a bit more effort.  It's easy to arrange here; there's a database and a card you carry in your wallet.  I've opted for organ donation as well so if there's anything useful they can have that - the ultimate in recycling :)  They only take the body for medical research here if it's intact so I've covered both bases.  You can elect how long they keep the body for and then either the body is returned to your family or the medical facility has a cremation service once a month.  The ashes can be given back or scattered, whatever you wish.  I've got a mind to see if there's a way to get mine put into little capsules and if people traveling to far flung locations can take a bit of me with them and leave me in one of the places I'd love to visit but most likely won't be able to.  I like the idea of that.

I really like ashes.  My friend showed me her husbands and I always think it's so amazing that an entire human body can be put into something the size of a flower vase.  My aunty, years ago, lost her dog and her husband within a fortnight of each other.  She got their ashes back at the same time.  The dog's were returned in a beautiful casket with the dog's name on a brass plaque on top.  Her husband's were in a Tupperware box.  Go figure.

I do want to haunt people, though!  I really like the idea of being a helpful ghost and tidying up for people when they're really busy, or bringing them their keys when they can't find them.  I also like the idea of warning folk who are misbehaving, like the ghosts in Scrooge :)  I think that would be fun xx xx

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Hopalong on July 05, 2020, 09:03:45 AM

I like this topic. To me it's not morbid, but to some it could be -- or triggering.

I began bugging my friend who has 1000 lovely wooded acres about 20 years ago to create a green burial site. It's just a wonderful idea. But she was squicky so I dropped it.

I've just figured the least-complicated route is the best; my parents both wished direct cremation. (Straight from deathbed to funeral home-with-crematorium.) For my Dad, I stayed with him until he was cold, so peaceful just sitting with him. I was sad but comforted. Touched him for ages, and noticed that I kept putting my hand beneath his neck toward the end of the two hours I stayed with him. Later I realized that was the last place his body held warmth, because it's the brain stem, and the body protects that until the last. That was a beautiful realization to me about life and nature, and helped me another big step in acceptance of his death and letting go. Later I was touched when the director invited me to press the button on the furnace to start the fire. Dad was in a waxed cardboard box to be moved from the upstairs level to the furnace, which was in the basement with a hearse parked next to it. Didn't offend me at all, I liked the simplicity of it. And it felt like a gentle farewell. My cousin gave him a lipsticky kiss on his forehead before the box top was slid back on. Another amusing memory was a big arrow with "HEAD" next to it.) My Dad would have enjoyed all those details, curiosity was his thing as a geographer. (One more detail I'd never thought about. In the few hours since I left and came back for the cremation appointment--his skin actually turned yellow, or nearly that. That was likely related to the effects of the cancer on his body--skin changes vary. He went out looking like a beloved daffodil.)

If green burial becomes available here, that's what I'd like. Simple cloth shroud, natural setting, little marker. Back to nature in the real. If not, cremation's the simplest option, though unfortunately that uses a lot of fossil fuel. I'm also giving thought to donating my body to science as Tupp described. This relieves you/your estate of all costs for transport and cremation, and does the world good. (Ashes are returned to your executor 12-24 months to a max of 5 years later, so you can then be sprinkled or interred privately then. Memorial service can happen any time though, no need for a corpse.) For the anatomical program (for medical education, six sites in this state and they need more donors) you can donate your body only if you do NOT donate organs or tissues for transplant. I think by the time I die my whole body will be of more use than my old organs. There's a website with a few forms and explanations. You (donor) must be refrigerated within four hours of death and received by the institution at the top of the list within 48 hours. The anatomical program picks you up from the funeral home or hospital. They're not taking donors now due to Covid-19, but you can still register so the legal stuff is all ready. Leave copies with your executor and hospital so they'll know to notify the program. And leave enough for basic cremation in your will/plan, in case for some reason your body doesn't qualify then it's up to the estate to follow through.

I went to an anatomy class once when I was dating a med student. I enjoyed it and was offered the heart to hold while the group I stood with was dissecting a cadaver. Despite the students' bravado, one guy I knew stood there pale and absolutely couldn't participate--so I felt brave. I think he became a specialist in something that required no cutting.) It felt like a sacred opportunity, to see the inner anatomy of a human being and to touch this person who gave that gift.

I enjoyed this thread because I like frankness about our bodies...to me it adds acceptance and understanding about humanity. The conventional funeral indu$try is a horror show that exploits grief for greed, wastes/pollutes land and resources, etc. It's nice to know one can short-circuit all that and leave your money for positive use instead of expensive waste. IMO, nobody needs a chunk of stone or a bunch of chemicals or a casket or embalming or any of that b/s in order to be grieved for, honored or remembered. A memorial service or happy wake does that best, imo.

Likewise, though, despite being quite opinionated -- I also think it's important to be tender and respectful to the living who are grieving, so I would never judge anybody for what they need to do. I wish everyone would read The American Way of Death by Jessica Mitford (library). That started the awakening in 1964.

hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: lighter on July 06, 2020, 01:26:35 AM

I'm donating my organs.  I've kept them in good shape.  They'll maybe help some folkes out, and so donating my body to science won't do.  It looks like the family pays for transporting the body to the teaching facility, then the facility handles the cremation and expense.  Not free, but likely the lowest expense. 

My friend did this, and the students, who studied her, returned her ashes, and participated in the memorial service.  It was nice, Hops.
   

SO, back to 1/8th the carbon footprint with a wet cremation vs tradiotional cremation
 OR
mushroom shroud. 

Bean,  I guess I could use any shroud, and have my grave lined in soft mushroom spores and whatever material feeds them.  Nice idea.... as nice as a mushroom shroud,  though they're a nice light cream color and seem to be as thick as felt, which seems comforting too.  The spoors are in between the layers of . 

If people can be buried in willow boxes and bamboo baskets, at that same depth of 3 feet... then you're absolutely right.  Nothing necessary or so special in a 1500.00  shroom shroud. 

Then there's just the hole, and transporting the body to attend to... pay for... maybe digging the hole.  And this MIGHT be so very wrong... it might comfort my girls to actually dig the hole, do the math and puzzle in their heads to form it to whatever shape I've taken.  Or not.  It would be something for me TO DO, for a loved one, that would feel right and good and meaningful.  I don't like the idea of an expensive board being employed for moving me either.  Instead... give me a blanket, cradled and carried by the corners and sides, like my mother when the firemen carried her downstairs, bc she couldn't walk anymore... the day before she died.

Hops, when my mother died, I kissed her on the forehead, over and over again.  I don't know why.I needed to touch her.  Remember touching her.  I do.   Her forehead was smooth and cool.  I didn't normally kiss her in life.  We hugged.  A door was opened on the back porch, toward the lake, and my sister and I imagined her soul left that way while the Hospice nurse grabbed up all the expensive drugs, we'd just filled an order for pot pills my step father could have used.  Poor guy. 

Mom was taken right to the funeral home, for cremation, where the Pastor, or whatever he was, offered us one last visit with her.   My SF and I looked at each other... not sure what to do.. then the Rev said "It woundn't  be a good idea, though."  I didn't like him then, for sure.

About the mushrooms....the mushroom suit or shroud is a symbolic way to honor and send off loved ones, I guess.   Same as a willow basket or pod.  A grave lined in a good bit of mushroom spores and planting mix actually seems like another, equally meaningful,  option.

But then... there's the handling of the body, which family members COULD do, if the family chose to.   The family, in the Mushroom Suit video, chose to let the funeral home handle that part.  I think the daughter, a nurse, could have done it, but the mom wasn't up to it.

My girls aren't like me, in that, I don't think they'd feel comforted performing that final act.... tending to my body, the attachment.... act of embracing a final time, then letting go.  My mother and her girlfriends did the makeup and hair of another friend..  It wasn't something they dreaded.  They would have felt denied had then not been allowed to do that for her.  Of course, my mother enjoyed the traditional rituals, open caskets, and photographing the bodies.... stuff I don't.

I wonder if it would freak them out to have me decomposing near the house, or at the farm. 

::thinking hard on that...changing up the people involved::.

I don't honestly know how I feel about that.  I guess natural burial plots are more expensive bc they require more space. 

The natural green cemetery in GA, where my friend is purchasing a space, is owned and run by Cistercian Monks.  There's a monastery, and that really appeals to us both.   

::whispering happily::.

monks.

More focus on the act of caring for and honoring a body, than a funeral home's main directive of greed and money-grubbing. 



Lighter

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Hopalong on July 06, 2020, 02:47:17 AM

My two cents:
I think the most important thing for your girls about that time of life, is not to make them contemplate it at all right now. This is a very scary time, and to be walked through a narrative of your death could be really disturbing for them.

As they get older, when death comes about in those they know, or someone's terminally ill, you could give them info about different ways of being buried and tell them which one you'd prefer. But keeping it simple simple simple.... And giving them a choice. Suggesting to them that they dig your grave sounds like it might be a harrowing assignment, depending completely on who they are as individuals.

My experience with death was very intimate and very different from my D's. She did not want the intimate connection to it at all, the idea overwhelmed her. She was the same about her grandfather's and her father's death.

Are they both bold warrior women like you? Maybe one would be into it and the other not.

hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Twoapenny on July 06, 2020, 06:42:42 AM

You can arrange and pre-pay everything here, Lighter - can you do that there?  Means no-one has to deal with anything - you organise and pay for it all in advance, as long as someone (or maybe more than one person) has the details of the policy somewhere it's just one phone call and the funeral directors do everything.  No-one digs graves here other than the grave diggers employed by the graveyard - is that not the case over there?  I've written what I want in to my will.  I don't want a load of fuss and I most particularly don't want a load of people who've not bothered for years turning up and wailing.  I've never been able to understand why people go to the funeral of someone they've made no effort for while they were living.

There was a funny (I thought it was funny; it was quite poor taste) of an old lady over here who attended all the wakes at her local church hall and helped herself to the free buffet.  Apparently she did if for fourteen years and no-one ever said anything because there's always people you don't know at a funeral.  It was reported that the vicar did have a word with her about it but she said she felt it was her duty to attend in order to represent the local community and pay respects on their behalf.  Lol, it just made me chuckle when I read it.  Some people! x

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: lighter on July 06, 2020, 02:08:11 PM

Tup:

Remember the movie Harold and Maude?  I just LOVED that movie. 

How they both attended funerals of people they didn't know, for different reasons, but still... doing the same thing?

Here's a scene from the movie.  Now, if M could assume the quiet curiosity of Harold here... and Hops felt free to be Hops... the focus, for just a while.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLP5I2xFSwQ&list=TLPQMDYwNzIwMjD2f3Dk36VRWw&index=2

Lighter

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Hopalong on July 06, 2020, 02:40:35 PM

Ahhh, quiet curiosity.
From the noisy, self-focused M.

It's a lovely dream!

Since we're on this thread I could just
plan how to bury him in my back yard
once I get fed up and whack him with a
skillet.

:)

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: lighter on July 06, 2020, 03:15:45 PM

Handful of mushroom spores.
About 3 feet deep.

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Hopalong on July 07, 2020, 12:56:20 PM

https://www.ted.com/talks/jae_rhim_lee_my_mushroom_burial_suit (https://www.ted.com/talks/jae_rhim_lee_my_mushroom_burial_suit)

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: lighter on July 07, 2020, 02:19:24 PM

 Newer versions of the suit and shroud..... I lovec the white...and the way the shroud ties. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=new+mushroom+suit+and+shroud+designs&rlz=1C1VFKB_enUS789US789&sxsrf=ALeKk01jR28jfbNVtaIulnnJwDf6e4ignQ:1594145730982&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=CIutyYBCYzFHMM%252CNaxzo16lNGwtxM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSzBQVGvxP-bE__n4W78C-2faFplw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiMqo_Q37vqAhXwnuAKHcdCAvIQ9QEwA3oECAYQCw&biw=1219&bih=640#imgrc=CIutyYBCYzFHMM&imgdii=Y1T_vg5C7lh98M

The infinity mushrooms, chosen to optimally break down bodies and neutralize toxins, is so..... forward-thinking, IMO. 

Lighter

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Hopalong on July 07, 2020, 02:49:17 PM

I like it too. She so deserved her standing ovation.
This is the kind of change that should be everywhere!
Genius combo of:

creativity
ethics
common sense
beauty
invention
art

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: lighter on July 07, 2020, 05:37:14 PM

Hops and Tupp:

I don't think I'll talk more about my burial plans with my girls, as suggested by Hops.  Youngest dd simply said she'd honor anything I wanted, and so.... will think about that for a bit, while contemplating the plan.

I can set it out,  pay for everything, should the girls want to do nothing themselves, then leave it to them to select what it is they find comfort in whenever the time comes.

::picturing my brother on a backhoe::

So many options.

Lighter

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Twoapenny on July 09, 2020, 04:07:33 AM

It could be so far in the future that they've found a way of just dissipating people into air or turning them into eco friendly ice cubes to put into the ocean :)  I read a book about sky burials once, common in places like Tibet where it's too cold to dig a grave for much of the year.  They section people up and lay the pieces out and birds take them away.  I like the sound of that.  It was a sad story of a Chinese lady who spent years in Tibet looking for her husband who went missing after a work mission there.  It was a long time ago so communication was poor and some areas so rural that there was no communication at all.  She spent years looking for him and eventually found out that he'd passed away and they'd had a sky burial for him.  And then she didn't feel she could settle back in to 'normal' life so she went back to Tibet and carried on searching, I believe.  It was a sad but beautiful read, I had hoped she'd have a happy ending.

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: lighter on July 09, 2020, 09:06:24 AM

Sectioned them up, Tupp....

::gulp::.
 
so the birds can take them away.

You win the most challenging, if necessary, burial choice.   

I feel so sorry for that heartbroken widow. 


Lighter

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Hopalong on July 09, 2020, 02:27:15 PM

It must be the pandemic that's fueling this fascination with death and corpses, and though I'm always happy to think about it all in ecological and ethical terms, feasting on decay stories isn't really elevating my state of mind. Not squicked, just want to turn my thoughts to life and sources of growth and/or contentment.

But it's my job, nobody else's, to keep an eye on this wannnndering mind...!

Enjoy, and do let me know if you find anything cleverer than the mushroom suit!

Hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Twoapenny on July 10, 2020, 06:14:09 AM

I wish I could remember the name of the book, Lighter, it is a beautiful story.  Sad because he's passed away but his widow makes some really beautiful friendships as she searches for him; at one point a nomadic family let her live with them and she becomes very close to their children, which was lovely as she didn't have her own.  And it was written by someone who heard tell of the lady while traveling and she managed to find people who knew her and build the story up.  I think when strangers are so moved by a story that they go to the trouble of writing it about someone they never knew that it's very special and forms a connection between them, even if they ever meet.

Sorry, Hops, didn't mean to make it morbid, I find the idea of sky burials so beautiful that I forget not everyone feels the same.  I think it's partly to do with that Buddhist view of life as a cycle, so death isn't the end.  You just change your human form so the previous one isn't needed.  I find the idea of a person just dissipating like that really peaceful.  It's very different from the way we tend to see death here, I think. But sorry to be morbid about it xx

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Hopalong on July 10, 2020, 07:52:54 AM

Noooo, not at all Tupp, no apology needed!
I also love the idea of direct-to-nature, makes so much sense.
I think it was Lighter's reprise with italics and gulping that got to me!
(No apology needed there either!)

LOL

I'm thooo thenthitive thometimes.

hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: lighter on July 11, 2020, 12:44:29 PM

Lord,  Hops.

I meant...
::gulp::
as in swallowing BEFORE contemplating exactly what birds picking apart body parts would BE like. 

Not...
gulping as in....
humans taking bites out of bodies.

Oh... now I've pictured it too, unfortunately. 



Lighter

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Hopalong on July 11, 2020, 02:43:06 PM

Yeh, no, it was clear to me it was birds, Light.

:)

I just didn't enjoy feasting on the horror of the image, but that DON'T matter!

No biggie! No trauma! No problem!

hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: lighter on July 18, 2020, 07:32:45 PM

Oldest dd saw the mushroom suit website..... and loved it.  She's sure she wants to be buried that way. 

She's also sure she doesn't want to dig my hole for me. 

Lighter

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Twoapenny on July 20, 2020, 01:18:18 AM

Lol, you're going to have to dig your own hole, Lighter, the kids aren't doing it!  Goodness me, that would be the ultimate in preparation, wouldn't it?  I'm hoping greatly that these sorts of necessities are a very long way off for all of us :) xx

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: lighter on July 21, 2020, 10:41:27 AM

Tupp:

I don't know....youngest DD would dig if I asked.  I don't think I will, but she's a can do person.

Lighter

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: lighter on August 07, 2020, 10:23:21 PM

About the book, STIFF

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/jul/26/featuresreviews.guardianreview6

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: lighter on December 19, 2022, 01:41:57 PM

Hey, Hops.  When you talked to your friend about setting up a green burial site on her property....did you do any research on it?

Lighter

Title: Re: Green burials
Post by: Hopalong on December 19, 2022, 04:43:28 PM

Didn't research anything statutory.
But with her 100 acres (used to be 400 but she sold some to the state for a new state park) I figure she could get all the formal/legal advice she needs. She just didn't wanna. But somebody will.

I was surprised to read that in my state, you can also be legally buried in your own back yard. Since I have no sentiment about my container, that'd be fine by me too. And not to mention, free.

In the past due to general interest, I've read a lot about the benefits (spiritual and environmental) but although there are some promising developments, there's not yet a simple "plant me in the forest" option in my nearby area. I think there's a very good chance of it being on the way, though. It's a progressive area.

You thinking about pursuing a similar plan? Very cool!

hugs
Hops