Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on September 29, 2020, 01:27:19 PM
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Only HERE would I tell this sorry tale! (TMI alert.)
I met two women yesterday, both in my covenant group, one I've known much longer (she's the pal who lets me pee in her yard if I need a break during errands). I'll call her Mary B. She's shown a touch of a bully side on rare occasions when she teases too much but I think it came from being one of six kids. I teased her back about it once and she apologized. She's generally very kind and loves the group very much. And has often told me how much she'd like us to visit each other often.
The other woman, I'll call her Patio, is relatively new. She's very cool and sophisticated and lived all over the world, but seems emotionally troubled at times. She introduced herself initially with great uncertainty and fragility and told us that "people don't like me." And said that to me several times over. So of course I immediately decided I would like her (rescue), and gently challenged her notion that nobody could like or understand her, and was very compassionate about hard stuff she was going through, which she repeatedly thanked me for. She remains generally guarded and I figured it's just some trauma she carries (grew up in multiple countries).
Anyway, I'd emailed her to see if she'd like a patio visit while a housecleaner was here and she mentioned that Mary B was coming and she thought I could come too. I checked with Mary B who said it'd be fine, did my errands and met them there. ("Patio" is a long story about her huge elegant patio that she talked about over and over because it was difficult to get done and traumatic because of a crappy contractor, etc. It is gorgeous and she's very proud of it, justifiably.)
So, when I have to be out of the house for four hours I obviously worry about/try to plan for pee breaks, since I'd need at least two. First time I found some woods in her neighborhood. Then we all were talking and drinking wine and I was beginning to worry I might be talking too much (race issues in this town, which I feel so personally, were top of mind) but it was generally pleasant. I think my spidey-sense was going off about being a third wheel in some way but I didn't tune in or throttle myself back as I should have. For whatever reason, I expressed real passion about the downtown developments that have rolled right over poor people of color, and she looked at me and said, "I feel anxiety listening to you and that's not the conversation we're having. We're talking about food and my flowers, not that." It was her cold tone. I felt exactly as though I'd just been told I wasn't socially appropriate and it was a direct launch to memories of being an outcast among females in childhood. Hit an ancient bruise. So I was in shock at her tone and my jaw kind of dropped and then she added "and of course you'd prefer to have this feedback, wouldn't you." I sort of nodded and suddenly realized I really had to pee urgently and headed off to my car to fetch a tissue before going into the woods and didn't make it. Just flooded myself. She said sort of languidly (zero empathy), do you want to borrow some pants? I said no, I'll just go home.
I felt doubly humiliated and so upset I cried in the car on the way home. Wow. Been a long time since I've had that vibe. Brought it on myself maybe, but yuck.
I'm just sorting through it because I'll have to see both these women again and I don't want anything to congeal that could be toxic to covenant group. I can certainly stop socializing with them outside of that. I emailed them both thanking them for the visit and said I was sorry I hadn't done better at "regulating my intensity" but that "even at 70, social skills can still improve! Love, Hops". And I haven't heard a word back from either of them. So I even wrote the one I'm closer to separately and just apologized for interfering with her visit with Patio.
What makes me sad is that neither of them reached out with any empathy. I would have, if someone had been dressed down by the elegant hostess and then had an embarrassing pee accident. I'd just have said, don't worry about that, I know it happens to everybody sometime, but I could tell you were upset. Just something.
Not.
a.
peep.
Feeling sorry for myself,
Hops
PS- MUCH better and healing quick. Talked to my favorite crone, veteran of more years of such groups than me...and we tore right through it. The host's tone triggered an inner "little girl who got expelled from the bday party and knew she had done something wrong but not quite, and peed herself on the way out of the house" -- feeling. BUT, that feeling was MY interpretation of HER and I don't need to carry it along. Did the best I could and talking with my friend, my humiliation disappeared. No more sorry for myself. I'll just let it come or go or flow and mention it to my T and it'll probably lead to some valuable insight or other. All is well. (I was feeling worried that this little fiffle might impact the group in some way. If it does then I still have options: schedule a talk with them both so we can connect in a healing way, let it go, etc. Nothing to do now but really, nothing (other than describe it to T and see what insights about early-Hops come up.) I felt big relief.
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Hops, I'm so sorry that happened to you and can imagine that each incident alone would be very upsetting; both together like that is very hard to deal with. However, I'm not as compassionate as you (sorry!) - they sound like a couple of bitches! It's not down to Patio pants to decide what can and can't be talked about, or to shut you down like that, especially in front of someone else. "You'd prefer to have this feedback" sounds very passive aggressive to me and like she's getting you to agree it's alright for her to speak to you like that. It isn't. You're not at an interview; 'feedback' isn't necessary. If she was genuinely upset by what you were saying (why she would be I don't know) then her saying, "would you mind if we don't talk about that as it upsets me" would be fine but she shut you down in a very rude and unnecessary way. And the subsequent response to your accident and follow up emails is inexcusable. I don't know what kind of manners they've been raised with but if someone comes to my home I look after them and make sure they're comfortable and I'd most definitely write back if they emailed me afterwards to say thank you for having them. No way would you be crying in your car on the way home. They are both on my arse kicking list now.
There's nothing there for you to be feeling responsible for; expressing concern for other people is what we should all be hearing more of! Who the bejesus wants to talk about food and flowers?! You can see now why people don't like her :) I wouldn't make any more effort with them if there isn't a very nice email in your inbox at some point; you can be polite and not get involved any more than that. Argh they remind me of the stuck up girls at school! And some of the yummy mummies I've had to contend with over the years. Sisterhood's a concept that's escaped some people, unfortunately. If they upset you again I'm coming over there to sort them out!! I hope you feel better soon, there's nothing there that you've done wrong. They both need to give their heads a wobble. xx
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Tupp, you are the BEST.
Talk about having a tiger on your side!
Thanks, hon. (((((((Tupp)))))))
big hugs
Hops
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The one I've known quite a while responded to my apologetic email and said: I love spending time with you, you didn't mess up my visit at all you just changed it, and when can we get together?
What a healing feeling.
I just think I'll be cautious going forward about the other person, because I don't think she knows how she sounds or seems sometimes. I don't have to ruminate on rejection and I feel better. I'll just mentally send her kindness. But not expose my belly, so to speak.
Thanks for listening. Such a early-life trigger-thing to process but it surprised me how strong it was.
hugs
Hops
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You are so much nicer than me, Hopsie, I'd still be fuming. You send kindness vibes and I'll send "get lost, dumb arse" vibes :) Lol. I'm glad you're feeling better xx
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I do! Nothing like a little humiliation to reset the humanity meter.
I can laugh about it today.
Amazing how much stress the no-public-bathroom-visits pledge adds to a day.
I might even invest in one of those Tinkle Belles. I will feel pretty cool whizzing standing up!
In hindsight I think Patio's way of getting me to change the subject was tone deaf and not very sensitive. Then again, it may be that this was something she actually didn't know how to do. Her bluntness might be involuntary in some way. I'm not inclined to hang out with her more to find out, but I'm letting it go.
hugs
Hops
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Hops... maybe SHE had to pee, but it was so important to her to be the center of attention she couldn't let the topic drift away into what other people had in their head or on their heart to talk about... that's why she "punished" you for bringing up your topic.
I tend to take note of those kinds of things but typically don't react in a group setting. If it's all the get together was about - everyone making her the center of attention and letting her dictate - I'd simply excuse myself and say I'd just remembered there was something I need to do today and gone home. Talk about a Queen Bee.
Watching grass grow or trying to estimate how thick the dust is on a surface is way more interesting to me and a better use of my time.
Says the grumpy old hermit lady. LOLOL. I didn't get a lot of sleep.
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Not grumpy, sensible!
Thanks, ((((Amber)))) -- I think you're right.
She is needing something right now and maybe bragging
and controlling her guests was the only way she sees to do it.
She talked a lot about a lavish party she throws every year
and how much praise she gets for it. Just...not my project.
Meanwhile, REAL friend stepped right up (in her reply) and
I have another coming by later and will be seeing or Zooming
with at least 4 people coming up soon.
I don't NEED to win the heart of Mean Girl. But do need to
hold on to compassion for her, as I lead the group. I can do it.
hugs
Hops
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Hops:
If you get your nose off the Pebble, see the entire field....w/ o judgment,...it's just information you need to make choices.
information.
Patio lady not gracious.... she's a poor hostess. You trying to save her didn't go unpunished. She told you who she is. Now you believe her....she has sharp edges. Just information.
You still feel comfortable caretaking and rescuing others. Just information.
Other, closer friend is a more positive influence in your life. Just information.
Not good or bad......just what it is.
One more thing.....it made me so happy to read about you peeing in yards! My girls have enjoyed doing that since very time. Some people are ok and comfortable with that....and as I learned from some friends and neighbors....some are decidedly not.
Oh well. You're always ok and lovely, just as you are....here, ((Hops.))
Lighter
P.S. Still pecking out posts with one finger so add 2 cups of compassion and leave out a pinch of what might seem being ordered about; ) You got this when you remember to be kind to yourself, drop judgment and accept everything as it is, right?
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Thank you, ((((Lighter!)))))).
Yes to all you said. I really appreciate it.
Told my T the tale today, including how I processed it, what I did for myself in that light (such as sharing here) and how rapidly I began to feel fine again. I AM fine.
She was so validating. Like a T-Tupp!
I added that I don't want to villainize Patio. She's doing what she's learned or taught herself to be okay in the world. And I don't have to cultivate any increased closeness with her....I can put her farther back a "ring" in my safety orbit. Keep her at a safe distance and know that my reflexive "fix it" attraction to colder people isn't necessary. (Little Hops wanted to placate, soothe and befriend the bullies. I'm no longer Little Hops.)
T made me feel good. Told me she'd have been very upset herself and completely understood what happened. She also said she thought my overall process/response was "evolved" because my concluding point was holding onto connection in community, and about how I'd be able to continue to be in group with Patio, because I recognize that she has an inner child too, who learned a way to manage her difficult world. I don't have to encourage more personal involvement (apart from responding to an appeal for help as we all offer each other) nor closer friendship. But I can still hold her humanity with compassion. I intend to.
Whew. I can weep! I can pee! I can cry! And that's all fine!
Liquidly,
Hops
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I'm glad you've sorted it all out in your mind, Hops, and I'm so impressed that you're able to be so gracious about it all. I'd have spent the last two days making voodo dolls ;) Lol xx
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HA! "Liquidly"....
Be the water Hops. When a pebble drops in, SPLASH!, the rings spread out and become slower & lower... until the surface is all a calm reflection of the deep stillness at the bottom of the pool.
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Well in spite of my lofty goals and desire to be spurchul and compassionate when hurt, Tupp, it's pretty amazing to have a friend whose mind goes to mental arse-kickings and voodoo dolls when the occasion inspires... I think you and my T would really get along!
Lighter, you're an instant meditation champ. There's a chance that if I keep thinking about water, though.... j/k. :)
It's pretty late in life to have figured this out, but I do think I've finally figured out that if you're quite sensitive in how you're wired, it's a good idea to avoid people who seem unkind (or who act that way out of unawareness). So I'm stuck with Patio but being in a "circle" with her anyway will give me an opportunity to examine boundaries, how well I hold them in silence and peace, etc.
Sometimes the Mean Girl in some women scents vulnerability like a bloodhound. So my opportunity will be to learn whether I can respect and hold my vulnerability while holding off her reflex to engage it.
I do have a better idea why she has commented so often about her social difficulty and how "nobody gets her" or "people don't like her." I don't want her to be lonely or disliked but MORE THAN THAT, I don't want to be a person who tries to fix her.
She's going through some very hard stuff right now (a mate with a terminal diagnosis). I've already volunteered to sit with him if she needs a break. My hunch, though, is that she will withdraw from me and not reach out any more. Just a feeling. (She might even leave the group, which would be unfortunate but I think maybe consistent with some patterns she's mentioned.)
Either way, that condescending "correction" was all I needed to know that she's not someone I can be myself around or be vulnerable.
It's kind of weird though, because the whole point of covenant groups is to build relationships in which you CAN be vulnerable and let down your guard. With all the other women in it, I'd be comfortable doing that. But now I know there's a different possibility with her, I'll have to figure out how to manage this. Both as the group leader and as a participant. Might not be easy.
A good thing is that I'm doing a training workshop with the new minister that's about a similar kind of small group, and participating in that will allow new connections with a good group of people too. There's ONE person in it whom I believe has boundary issues and has encroached on a friend's mate inappropriately so I avoid her. She approached me several times wanting to connect and I finally realized my spidey sense said, No, this vibe isn't healthy for me. So again, if you do group things...you've got to have some sense of participation balanced with self care. A good challenge, because it's just a microcosm of life in the world.
hugs
Hops
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You sound really good, Hops.
Growth is painful stuff, IME. I wish the lessons came with a little notice, kwim?
Lighter
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Sure do, Lighter.
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Socially whacked on the nose jusyt before frantic waddle to pee in a panic is never something one can prepare for, IME.
:: nod::
Lighter
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Well said, Lighter! :))
My Tinkle Belle arrives tomorrow, very exciting!
Just enjoyed sitting 6'-8' apart, masks on, big bonfire going, out at a friend's huge old house on the lawn, to celebrate my wise friend's 80th. Brought our own food and drinks and the real nourishment was seeing each other. Ten of us, biggest group I've been in since March.
It'll be so nice when hugs are back.
hugs
Hops
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My sis and I had a fire in the burn barrell last night. Cooked over it. Neighbor dog hung out with us, happy to receive hot dogs and dropped marshmallows. Such a nice fall evening after satisfying weed pulling and boundary setting/successful communication discussions with our guest who's here till the 19th....and there's growth, stability and tremendous exhaling for all.
Lighter
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growth, stability and tremendous exhaling for all
Sounds pretty wonderful, Lighter!
:)
Hops
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Please skip this one if you've had quiteenoughthankyou of an old lady talking about one of her bodily functions (hey, I've GOT bodily functions, that's cool!):
The Tinkle Belle is BRILLIANT! Works great. Very tidy, simple, comfortable, straightforward (ooo, a pun!). Practiced in the water closet (another...pun?). Actually looking forward to a roadside bit of bravado-braweedo. Perhaps I'll start rolling like a cowpoke into men's restrooms and elbowing some huge trucker aside at a urinal. Move over, buddy, the Bowlegged Belle is here....
I have overdone this entire topic, I know, but silly as it sounds it's been one of the bigger stresses for me about quarantine. I drink a LOT of water and have been a very frequent bathroom visitor since I was young. (I wonder if being a DES baby--born with slight internal malformations--might also have affected the adjacent geography?)
Sorries for anybody feeling squicked out...
and hugs
Hops
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Hmmmm....
I missed something.
I thought you were talking about a fire pit, lol.
Lighter
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You asked me about my fire pit on the Corona virus thread, Light. I answered:
Lighter, search for "Solo stove Bonfire" and you'll see it.
I was actually wondering once you'd Google it whether you'd be tempted by the Yukon.
hugs
Hops
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Hips back, Hops. What a wonderful device!
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That's right, Lighter. It has great instructions.
Did you look up the Solo firepit? I like its modern, minimal design.
hugs
Hops
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The fire pit reminds me of a little camp stove I wanted....it burns ANYTHING and has a little battery powered fan....similar looking to the Yukon, which I do love, Hops. This looks super efficient and without batteries! Woo hoo.
Right now I have my burn barrell, with vents cut into bottom where I use blower to supercharge the burn.
Not at all sleek, like Yukon; )
Lighter
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Maybe not sleep but very pragmatic, a burn barrel. We're not allowed to burn things here even inside barrels, huh. (Though who would know if I snuck a couple papers in atop the kindling...)
I splurged on this one because it's pretty and a perfect size for my patio. It's also nearly smokeless, which I think will make visitors a lot more comfortable. That's the plan, anyway.
BTW the original Solo Stove is camping-sized.
hugs
Hops
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Please skip this one if you've had quiteenoughthankyou of an old lady talking about one of her bodily functions (hey, I've GOT bodily functions, that's cool!):
The Tinkle Belle is BRILLIANT! Works great. Very tidy, simple, comfortable, straightforward (ooo, a pun!). Practiced in the water closet (another...pun?). Actually looking forward to a roadside bit of bravado-braweedo. Perhaps I'll start rolling like a cowpoke into men's restrooms and elbowing some huge trucker aside at a urinal. Move over, buddy, the Bowlegged Belle is here....
I have overdone this entire topic, I know, but silly as it sounds it's been one of the bigger stresses for me about quarantine. I drink a LOT of water and have been a very frequent bathroom visitor since I was young. (I wonder if being a DES baby--born with slight internal malformations--might also have affected the adjacent geography?)
Sorries for anybody feeling squicked out...
and hugs
Hops
Hops, the Bowlegged Belle comment had me in hysterics; I can't wait until I come on here to read a story about you pushing your way past a load of truckers at a urinal. How funny would that be? Lol
On a more serious note, though, I think it's great that you're looking for (and finding) ways to make the coming winter easier. Taking away those worries (where can I pee, how can we keep warm outside) is so proactive and I think having some feeling of control over your circumstances is always helpful. I was reading an article about the way Norwegians cope with their long, dark winters (almost complete darkness for two months, apparently) and it seems they focus on it as a challenge and look for ways to do the things they want to do, and then look at those things fondly. They gave examples of long walks by torch light and focusing on the snuggling down by the fire kind of stuff, rather than lamenting the lack of light. I think that's what you're doing with all of this - how can I make this potentially difficult situation workable? I think it's a good approach. Not sure the truckers will agree, mind you ;) xx
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mean gurls suk Hops! and i'm very sorry you had to go through this.
on the upside, I'm ROTFLMAO, and no pee topics are not taboo with me! hahahahaha
I can just see the look on that woman's face when she scolded you. I can picture it all scrunched up....I can see her distress. I can picture how if this was a movie or if we were friends in 3-D I would really love that this happened! seriously she needs to GET A LIFE! Life is TOO SHORT TO BE THAT UPTIGHT LADY
:) :)
On a similiar note, I feel my hubby and i are the only ones in our neighborhood (it is uber social) to not want to be around others sans masks. it's really starting to feel uncomfortable and I imagine people are whispering behind our backs how we're "paranoid" and "uptight " whatev
I have never been one for social circles myself.
keep going to your group, laugh on the inside and know you are not the one with the problem with empathy, hops
bean
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Thanks, ((((Bean))))!
Interestingly, the snooty-poo person has been off my radar for a while. She really is going through difficult times (her partner is quite ill) so I'm not going to hold a grudge. I decided to look at it as HER awkwardness as much as my own. She has a need to keep things more on the surface and I was going all #BLM and she found it anxiety producing. I can sympathize with that, in a way, because people right now are just RAW about all kinds of things, political or not. (I imagine we will be for some time, processing the aftermath of the last four years.)
I'll just continue to participate in the group with her and not worry about her otherwise. That day felt awful but Tinkle Belle and I have moved on. Thankfully.
I see you and your hubby, sporting your masks, as walking in a quiet circle of caring for community and living in a right and gentle way. If others get a-buzz about it, it's probably a similar kind of thing...in a way your responsible behavior holds up a mirror that too many don't want to look into. Cognitive dissonance will ensue.
So good for you! It's an act of love, and nothing else, in my view. No defense or explanation needed. I hope you keep enjoying your walks and don't feel distressed over imagining how others' minds might be working (or more to the point, not working).
hugs
Hops
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Had this on Relationships thread but decided to move it here, where I'll try to remember to put most friendship stuff:
Girlfriend J (the one who had the dire illness and refused to say what it was after several years of constant confidences, which was confusing and unsettling, though I respected her right to privacy) -- wrote telling me that her last visit to my house, during which I'd told her honestly but not angrily how I'd felt, was an "ambush" so she'd only meet me out in public now at a place she chooses. This is the World Bank professor person. I realized the friendship is over and wrote her a nice email where I said I wanted to release it with gratitude and no hard feelings. She responded nicely. So whew on that.
I am just feeling a whole lot less likely to go along with relationships that don't feel healthy to me. Not because another person's a terrible human (I can be the unhealthy one and often am, I'm sure), but because I'm FINALLY recognizing just that certain kinds of people are good for me and promote mutual trust and happiness, and others don't. Sometimes there are subtle power struggles (or unsubtle ones) that just take me forever to recognize. The way I'm made, once that kicks in, I need to get out.
Never could handle power struggles or intense conflict, and I'm tired of asking myself to. I would rather be Ferdinand the Bull, even if I'm by myself. I can attract bullies or controlling folks and need to be quicker to adapt and step around them.
Zoom friend (the introverted very bright librarian, widower) surprised me on the phone the other day. We had a plan for me to visit him and it was pretty hot, so I wrote to check in to confirm or not. He called to reply and was pretty upset -- turned out his cat has been diagnosed with kidney disease. He is so distressed, that cat is literally his mate and he's just rocked off his anchor. I was glad he shared that. Then I took a turn and shared how I'd been processing a new (I hope a last) wave of grief over M, and how I'd recognized this or that...and he was SO perceptive, supportive and compassionate. It kind of blew my mind.
I ordered some catnip shipped to his cat the next day. And feel very grateful that he's my friend.
Dearest poet friend R, who's moved away, has stayed in touch and we've Zoomed twice. It's meant so much. I miss her a lot but feel really good about how we're maintaining our connection. As soon as travel is safe again I will definitely visit her in Michigan. She has an unhappy relationship that she couldn't leave behind, so her negative and critical companion is troubling her, and she likewise flares into fury over every incident. I don't envy her that partnership but they've gotten a couples counselor and who knows, even old folks can learn, right? I hope they will heal. It's hard to imagine what's harder than being old and in a miserable bickering partnership. I know loneliness feels harder to me often, but there's the other side of it too.
hugs
Hops
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Hey, Hops.
How's your poet friend doing?
Lighter
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R's doing really well at the mo', Lighter.
Just called me from their retreat at a large, lovely cabin on the shore of Lake Huron.
The lakes not too far away are going to ease her transition into citier-life, I know. It's the first break she's had since the move (exhausting) a month ago.
They had a few days on their own so the couple-tension's abated for now (he's happier in nature than at home). Today her family arrives...adorable, super-bright and stunning 4 y/o grand-daughter (half Iranian, half American), R's daughter and SIL, and SIL's father, who escaped Iran but is now thriving in NE with successful real estate. I'm happy for them all, as they have a very connected family life.
By this time next year, I plan to join them for a lake week. She's already promised me a room of my own. Look forward to that a lot. Peace, breezes, water, horizon.
hugs
Hops
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I'm happy hopeful about your lake week this time next year and.....
a little apprehensive above the things we're willing to sacrifice for cherished fellowship.
IME, we all have our breaking points.
I hope things settle down with Covid.
I can't imagine your passing up the trip, whatever happens.
So glad friend and struggling hubby feeling better, Hops.
Lighter
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I'll make two posts -- one general about friendships that's on my mind, one an update on poet.
I've gotten more honest over time about how I feel about being (or making myself through inherent sensitivity I can only partially control) an easy target in even small ways. I'm less apt to absorb it without asserting/objecting (miracle). In my small social circle, there have been two people recently who've caused me to feel more clear, at least inside myself, about who I enjoy and who I don't. (Patio Princess is one. Another is her new-friend my old-friend, not super close but someone I value via church who's recently moved nearby so I was hopeful we'd become closer. She's someone I never thought I'd pull away from.)
I enjoy people who won't make gratuitous verbal jabs at me but who, if they are irritated or not in sync, will say how THEY are feeling within THEIR life and inside THEIR own self, rather than acting out as though I were the sole cause of out-of-syncness. It doesn't happen often and is usually minor and absorbable (definitely, it was absorbable with the grieving mother). But if it's a big cut and I'm feeling too hurt usually, I just don't expose myself to them any more. Don't hate them for it but don't want to spend time that way when I could be finding new friends instead.
I've noticed how several people in my outer-friend group have become people I don't yearn to be around anymore. (I only have two very close friends whom I wouldn't distance myself from for anything.) I've been so lonely that for a long time I assumed that ANY connection, even if seriously unsatisfying, was better than none. I'm still very affected by my early stuff, I know, and will likely have to manage that vulnerability until the day I die. It's surprised me but I'm accepting more solitude as the price. I don't know how that will be going as winter closes in, but I'll find out. (Maybe dating, or a relationship, will offset the isolation. But if it's someone I have no prior connection with or can't be certain about how careful they are about Covid, I'm not going to work super hard to find safe ways to meet up, etc.).--I'll yak about that on the Relationships thread as things evolve, if they do.
Back to the friends sitch. Patio Princess showed me who she is that day and has moved on from the Covenant Group I lead, to my relief. Three nice and interesting new women have joined. I don't miss PP (hah!). The other one (friend who was there on patio disaster day) has also moved to lead a new group -- this is the ideal model that most Covenant Groups keep turning over, because that helps them form wider connections and new relationships within the congregation. My group stayed and none have wanted to move on for about 4 years. I just keep on leading. But I'm learning more about those dynamics.
At first when the three moved on I was sad. Even though I've done it myself several times over many years in these groups. Then I realized it was an opportunity for this core group to learn from and be stimulated by new people, stories and thinking. Our first "new configuration" meeting was great and it'll be a new experience this year. One late-joiner will be turning up too tomorrow evening, which should be interesting. A last IMPORTANT fact is that one of the newbies has a pig and will let me drive out to give it belly rubs! Siggghhhhh, I loooooooove pigs.
Back to the social stuff o' the day. My nearby-friend was raised Catholic and has tendencies to judge, instruct and monitor others (or at least me). It annoys me a bunch. If I say something in a meeting she doesn't approve of, she'll gasp and go "HOPPPPS!" in a scolding voice, etc. And when I say something truthful about how I feel (like telling her the beach was 90% great and she asks what was the 10% and I go, half the bed and the other half a hurtful comment....) she starts explaining to me it's a "let your hair down casual group" as though I was an outsider and didn't understand the social setting I was in. Boy did that push my buttons. I've known a lot of these people longer than she has. So the condescension got to me and on the way home I told her I often feel disapproved of around her (she said I'm sorry).
Talked to my T today about it and so far, it was so good (saying honestly how I felt). But the next bit was I said to friend, This might be your inner nun, and I've observed that judgemental reflex a lot in my friends who were raised Catholic...just a whole bunch of analysis that was unecessary and may have hurt her feelings. I figured it out (finally) with the T and realized I did want to mend bridges.
So I wrote her a very honest apology for the analysing her inner-religious-origins part, and simply re-stated the first part. I had been feeling annoyed and didn't feel comfortable saying so.
We'll see how she responds. But it felt like a mature thing to do (Hops hopes).
Thanks for listening -- as ever, I understand better what I think after writing it out...
hugs
Hops
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Update on poet friend:
R is very happy to be near beloved daughter and grandchild, but stuggling with partner as she was before. He's nasty, lashes out, criticizes her in ways that trigger intense shaming and vulnerability, and she's avoiding him now and quite miserable.
It's hard to watch as I had so hoped she'd leave him behind, but she is unable to be alone, she believes. Even 10 minutes from her family. Or with a housemate. I think she has "learned helplessness" and just can't bear the idea of sleeping in a building alone or not being with a partner for any length of time. She was molested in Africa at age 4, and has never recovered from this. And was beaten by first husband.
She is intellectually very strong but tries to use her intellect to defeat her resentful country-boy partner, who gets sick of being "instructed" or condescended to, and so they're off on another battle. He also has an ex-con son who manipulates him constantly. It's painful to think about their situation, as they're both miserable.
I think the end of their partnership is inevitable and I'm sad to see her pour out her vital energy in her 70s on someone who isn't able to see her and love her well. But I am just supporting, there when she needs an ear or shoulder, and ever ready to Zoom.
hugs
Hops
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Inner.
Nun.
Whooboy, she did have it coming, Hops. I'm proud of you for standing up to her and calling out the judgment.
Would it have been more about you and your feelings if you said you often feel you've had your emotional knuckles smacked by a nun....when she judges you.....instead of called out "her" inner nun?
Lighter
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This "inner nun" discussion has helped me to understand the behavior of a woman I know I'll call her M), who was a casual friend I met up here at an AA meeting. M has a cottage up here 4 miles from where I live. I found M makes many of what I consider to be judgmental statements about others. I noticed too M does not keep confidences even when asked. M also added a phone number to the meeting list without asking the woman's permission. I learned this when the woman contacted me - she was upset that a male member called her and did not know how he got her number. The male member was married and was trying to get something going on the side. I suggested the woman confront M for adding her number to the list without permission.
Anyway, M came on hot and heavy when we first met, wanting to ride to the meeting together, wanting me to stop by for breakfast, take me fishing, etc. I set some boundaries back then and it was fine. At one point though she got pretty distant. It could be that I did not respond when she sent me a request to "like" her business as a spiritual advisor on FB. (She used to work as a chaplain in a hospital). I am only guessing.
I arranged to speak with M after our meeting one day, to ask if I offended her in some way, but the conversation was focused on her husband who was needing nursing home care. I decided M had enough on her plate and did not bring it up. Since the pandemic I no longer go to the meeting and do not hear from M. I texted a few times to ask about her husband and to offer support. I know M still comes up as her cottage is on the main county road and I need to drive by her place when I go to town or the post office.
The last time we spoke on the phone (I reached out to her during my struggle with the hip replacement and Lyme's disease) she told me she noticed we put up a fence here. I am angry that she would drive around my house to snoop, but not even call or text. We live off a dead end road 2 miles from the county highway - she went out of her way. I did not say anything then but it has been eating at me. I know I will not reach out to her again.
I dunno, I should and will let it go. M is really not someone I want to be involved with. I can be such a damn people pleaser though, and regret not telling her how I feel.
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Absolutely, Lighter.
That would have been the PERFECT way to convey how I felt. (Keeping it to I-statements, about my own feelings. Instead, I veered off into the blaming you-statement: "It must be your inner nun." (Presented as a joke but the edge was audible.) Ooo, hindsight.
I hear you about your M friend, Phyl. So disappointing.
Sometimes those with "inner nuns" are both agreeable, very group-focused, and bossy as hell. Do good works while driving folks nuts.
I'm going to try to focus on what's good/admirable and also on continuing to find the inner calm when somebody hurts (even little slights) or harms (BIG slights) me. And still forgive (my own inner Xian) but not forget. So I can have strong boundaries around them without anger.
I just hate anger. It sickens me. I'm nearly phobic about it, which ain't healthy either.
BTW, I wrote Nun a kind message owning my annoyance about feeling disapproved of, but also apologizing for my uncessary and inappropriate analysis of her motives.
hugs
Hops
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Poet friend update:
At LAST. She called in tears yesterday to relate the hundredth incident of him saying belittling things, not registering her vulnerability to nasty criticical comments (or worse, registering it just fine and enjoying the effect he has). She was reduced to a frightened, quivering mess of hurt, as she so often is with him. Her confidence evaporates in an instant. I've suggested too many times that she needs therapy and she always agrees but doesn't make it happen. Maybe she's feared it all this time because if she actually does do the healing work, hard decisions would be clear.
She said: "I've decided to leave him." (That means figuring out per MI law how to get him out of HER house.) No idea how soon or how she'll manage it, but my CoD alarm is blaring. So far I've just been supportive (she said I'm the only one she talks to about it) and yet I've also made some direct statements about his cruelty.
She mentioned maybe after she tells him he has to go, she'd leave town for a while until he moves out. I worry about whether she'll have the confidence to be her own advocate and have urged her to see a lawyer to find out if there'd be any "tenant" issues to deal with. He's contributed monthly to her mortgage but isn't a legal tenant, I think. They're not married. First, she said, she's going to "continue to play the game" so as to not let on to him her intention. I can't imagine this period. My divorce was peaceful and those months of living-together-while-separated were still awful. But she does have her daughter near.
I gotta back off some though and be careful. She's so dependent on not being alone, and I did offer her a standing invite to visit or have a stay here. That could be really good, or if she found herself lashing out at me to diffuse her stress, awful. Still the invite's sincere and I'll stand by it. Will just try to be very mindful and clear about boundaries I'd need if she should come. Chances are good she might rent a lake cottage for a few weeks instead, but I'm not sure. Being ANYWHERE alone seems to be impossible for her.
All this is cart way before horse, however. I would not be surprised at all to get another call for her to explain that "he understands it now" and she's changed her mind. I hope not. Rooting for her to see it through. Supporting her has been both good (genuine closeness) but also draining (CoD-Me doesn't always know where to draw a line).
All in all, I felt such relief for her when she announced that decision. I hope she can reclaim and heal to enjoy as much of the rest of her 70s and beyond as she possibly can. She loves to write poetry, explore cultures, travel and so many things -- not on her own but she can still be active if she makes new friends. And her grand-D and D bring her joy too.
Whew. Feels like a big event. If it fizzles I'll have to practice more detachment.
hugs
Hops
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Sounds like self-image & self-esteem are the core issues for her. Confidence, in a nutshell, in her own abilities. So she'll likely look for a "friend" to transfer that dependence to. A T, would be the best choice - but depending on their experience and skill may still lean on the side of doing "too much" FOR her - instead of teaching her that she can rely on herself for that kind of "support". Could've been a pattern that developed from her FOO, could've been an unconscious or subsconscious choice... or simply not being active enough in developing her self.
But that's all stuff a good T could help her discover & deal with. Not your job, in other words. But making a gift of your support in a difficult time for her - even past what you think is healthy occasionally - doesn't necessarily equal CoDependency. The key to that definition for me, is when your OWN sense of "it's OK" DEPENDS on you going above & beyond to keep HER OK. "Occasionally" is the operative word, here.
But that's just my perspective today, colored by some things (good & bad) I'm going through at the moment. It's not meant to be taken as absolute truth that works in all situations for all people, ALL the time. I'm still trying to decide if there is any purported "truth" that would meet those criteria.
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Thanks, Amber. Those are such smart queries.
Her FOO issues were basically that her parents were famous anthropologists very absorbed in their work (they left her basically alone in the village in Africa while they were in the field, assuming she'd just be fine playing with the village children, with no thought of what might happen to her at age FOUR if the wrong adult male followed her to an outhouse...and did what he did.)
She was a shy, sensitive middle child with four brothers. No voice, really. I can't imagine what she went through after the abuse -- didn't sound as though there was a reckoning with her folks. But it eventually led her to choose a husband who wound up beating her. I don't recall how long it took her to get out of the abusive marriage but I know it wasn't quick. She stayed and took it for a long time.
I believe she learned very early that her body did not belong to her. And that if someone hurt or took advantage of her, she was helpless (still seems so in ways, overcompensating with intellect). Nobody would rescue her, but she keeps trying to find someone to. Her second husband who died so soon was a lovely and gentle man and devoted to her.
I sympathize. And have had impulses in that direction myself, when security fears rise. But she's paid a big price. I knew there was something unhealthy going on when despite loving her husband who died, she was on the internet with other men within two weeks. Until she met her current partner, it was the top subject on her mind. (True for me too, back when I still thought searching would mean finding.)
Anyway, it's absolutely her work to do, in terms of confidence and self esteem. I will continue to love and support her...I just know I need to be alert to my rescue tendencies, and impassioned advocacy. Fine to be an advocate, not healthy for me to feel so committed to it that I lose track of taking care of myself.
I have some hesitancy as well because in her quest to define her place in the world she also developed a pattern of lecturing and instructing that's reminiscent (in no way to the same scale) of the "forced teaching" I used to complain about with M.
But I can set limits with her in a much simpler and quicker way, I'm pretty sure. Anyway, no telling if or when or how I'll be actually in her life again (other than LD and Zoom support) so I don't need to create a saga when none's begun.
Good to write it out here, though. Good chance I'll need some grounding later.
hugs
Hops
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I think the challenge for me here is to unattach myself more.
I am busting myself with a realization. When she pours out her pain and vulnerability, I'm there. I know how to hold steady, remind her of who she is and could be, express minimally but honestly how I see it, offer (obvious) advice like a T and a lawyer. She drinks it in and always expresses that it helps a great deal.
Then her pattern is -- the next time we talk, she often pretends nothing happened, she didn't describe the level of pain she did, and chitter-chats about other stuff. I understand what's happening but realize I'm a bit anxious at the flip-flopping. There's something in ME that is uncomfortable with beginning to engage the subject and then she starts acting again, and goes into unconvincing detours.
So why do I get so bothered when she approaches-solutions-then-retreats and tells me a new (same always) story about how "it's better now."
I think it's the classic pattern of abuse, with her, but with me, is probably classic Co-D kinds of stuff. In addition to good caring support as Amber described.
Just tuning into that. I'll be talking with her this afternoon, a Zoom at her request. Maybe I can be more observant and less attached to the outcome. Huh. There's my answer, had it all along...release the outcome....
hugs
Hops
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How did your last zoom with friend go, Hops?
I noticed your intention to step away and let it be, whatever it is, which is so wise.
Lighter
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Thanks for checking, Lighter.
She was in the pretending/posing place, but instead of judging, I saw it as her way of surviving fear and pain. Avoidance, which is exactly what I do in other areas. It's up to her when and how much she can confront. Likewise.
I feel gentler, and more accepting. Her performative stuff plus denial is triggering but an opportunity for me to grow. (I've been watching her be bullied, which is clearly awakening my own bruises.) I've been her only witness for a long time. But playing the role of cheerleader and rescuer has drained me.
She said she's serious about healing her early trauma (with a T) and I'm very glad. She can't heal until she commits to herself. (Project much, Hops???)
My T said, "I think she takes too much" -- she noted that support is pretty spotty when it goes this way. Poet makes sympathic noises if I relate a trouble but she's so inward-focused I don't really feel it. I can get cerebral conversation anywhere.
Task remains to have empathy for my inner self and for others' too, but be more mindful of relationships where the effort and understanding go both ways. My T is pointing out that I often am drawn to people who actually don't give much.
I think Poet has also triggered me in a positive way, to start looking at myself harder (not meaner, but harder).
hugs
Hops
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I guess your poet friend really is where she wants to be, Hops..... in relationship with a man, any man, it doesn't matter if she's disrespected, bullied, voiceless and unhappy.
When the pain of staying outweighs the pain of leaving.... that's when she'll leave.
In a way you're thinking about leaving/shifting the relationship you've always had with the poet... in that you're steppng back and offering what you're comfortable giving opposed to what the poet believes you should give, bc you've always given it. Maybe there will be large shifts.... maybe not.
Remember when someone on this board shared a response they often used with people making sad choices....
"Let me know how that works out for you?"
I think it was Deb.... but it was an amazing response and I could see how it would be better than reactive co dependence, yup yup yup.
Thanks for the update.
Lighter
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I got an unusually open and vulnerable message from her yesterday -- a transparent blast of description of how she is feeling (unloved and terrified: iow, anxiety). No posturing or pretending. It was tough to read but I saw again how powerful it is to really allow how we feel to be looked at in full daylight with all its wrinkles or sores and just...described.
I think that is the poet part, surfacing to remind her of her unacknowledged strength.
Gave me hope for her. My own experience has been that in the worst times, when I can get feelings down well into a painstaking poem, I look down on the page afterward and see: The poem took the pain. The pain is on the page now.
"Painstaking." In my particular life, poetry is that. Could be painting or leatherwork or moss growing, but in creativity lies peace, I believe.
hugs
Hops
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"Could be painting or leatherwork or moss growing, but in creativity lies peace, I believe."
Hi Hops--and everyone,
On this note, you may be interested in reading David Sipress's memoir "What's So Funny?" Sipress is a cartoonist for The New Yorker magazine, and he writes about how he turned much of the significant emotional pain of his life into cartoons--and made a career out of doing so! Knowing that I would appreciate it (I tried to do the same with 10-minute plays!), the book was given to me by two of my dear patients.
Take care,
Richard
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Thank you for this, Doc G!
I looked it up and it's on my books wish list, for sure.
love,
Hops
PS I've started making cartoons for the rare occasions when I mail a card. Ordered a box of 100 blank cards and envelopes and just let it rip with a Sharpie. Sometimes when I free-associate with drawing, it turns out funny. Kindly caricatures of the friends, for example. So far, they're well received.
The key part is age-related. I have learned I FINALLY don't give a poo if others think my art is "good" -- if it's flowing and feels true, I'm happy. And then it actually turns out better anyway.
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I think your drawings are a surprising gift, Hops. Much appreciated and cherished by those lucky enough to receive them: )
My youngest draws on every restaurant check. she mixes it up. Tight,lovely little things.
Just today she talked about becoming a police sketch artist.
Or a teacher; )
Lighter
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That's fantastic.
A talent like that can change a life.
Any art lessons in store?
It feels so good to get lost in something.
hugs
Hops
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Had the weekly Zoom with poet, and though it went much better on the surface (I openly told her I am making an intentional effort to support her but not over-advise...etc.) -- below the surface I felt anxious, drained and afterward, recognized this is a huge emotional labor for me. (Probably a significant thing to be more attentive to unpacking.) My triggers are pretty much the same with her -- hearing her make a positive declaration about what she's going to do, and then a week later she's nonstop excuses for why she can't do it. This time it was seeing a T, or finding community, or anything whatsoever that came up. It was a litany of I can't, it's too hard, obstacles ABCDE, and so forth. She did place a call to a T and is on a waiting list. Then she went off into a complete fantasy about getting a dog with him, and started talking about the "good stuff" etc. So, she's walking herself right back into the relationship. This makes my brain jiggle and not in a fun jello way. (H/t to Amber.)
Nobody's fault but my own and it could turn out to be an excellent growth experience for me, to detach from the outcome and observe myself struggling, ask myself about why. I have taken a straight clear look at how intensely I have tried to fix her, and I'm seeing how that was giving me purpose. She encouraged it for such a long time, and I guess I (thought) I needed to be needed. It's probably my closest relationship now, and given the strain the pandemic's put on socializing, that may also be why I've made it so important. It IS important, but I've got to change my end of it, so I don't have these aftereffects and drink extra wine just to calm down.
That's it. Now I can ponder this stuff and hopefully make it tidy enough to deal with in my therapy session, with my dear T who speaks the way a sloth moves, which also drives me crazy sometimes. I process words/thoughts FAST and she's very very slow and deliberate in her speech. Couldn't be a bigger contrast, sometimes it makes me doubt the fit.
Whew, quite a ramble! If y'all made it this far, thanks for reading.
hugs
Hops
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Grrrr..... the resonse I wrote didn't go through. Drat and here goes'again.
Your friend will do what most of us do....leave when the pain of staying is worse than the pain of going,likely.
I'm curious about what poet might say and feel if you didn't give an ounce of advice.... but just..... asked her.....
"You REALLY love him, don't you?" Just fully accept she';s chosen this man and will be with him likely the rest of her life.
I wonder if poet would feel a jolt of being on her own with her dilemma.... I'm wondering if she'd be forced to act, bc she no longer felt you were resolving the problem for her any longer. It happened that way for me once.... my sister asked that same exact question and I broke up with the guy immediately afterwards. I'll never forget that feeling of being left on my own to deal with that....it felt like a kick in the gut and I perked up and saved myself.
A friend's brother is doing the same thing to my friend.... the brother said his wife is gone and he needs help....asked my friend to visit 3 States away then texted at 5am he just needed 50.00....not any real help to get sober or out of an abusive relationship or honest enough to do some healing, whatever that is.
I was shocked when my friend sent the 50.00.... I mean... what IF that was the place where his brother HAD TO FACE something, admit his life isnt working, admit he's addicted and lost and in a dysfunctional relationship?
Then I remembered not to tell the friend what to do and we talked about something else for a while. It was difficult, yup yup yup.
What if the brother was 50.00 away from having no choice but to admit his life is out of control.
It's really hard to put down, Hops. It is.
You're doing real good, IMO.
Lighter
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Thanks, Lighter. You've got it.
She called yesterday to talk through another incident. She does have her first T appointment (I believe with a trauma therapist, which is what she's needed all along) in a week or two. She was freaking out about driving for 10-15 minutes on major highways outside Detroit, what if she has to change multiple lanes?. I mentioned that I wouldn't enjoy it either but that Google Maps gives an route option to click: "Avoid major highways." Also suggested she could do a trial drive to that office, alone or with her daughter, to build her confidence she could go on her own when ready. For now, they're going to Zoom.
She has a whole lot of learned helplessness that will be good for her to unpack. Well I did advise one more thing: Every time she thinks "B has to do/be in charge of that (a man job)" -- to think it through, see if she might: a) try it herself or b) hire help (she's able to do some of that). Not go directly to "that is a man job" unless she physically can't or doesn't want to do something herself.
Beyond that, I just tried to be empathetic and reflect back. "For now, you are not ready to leave the relationship" -- (Yes. I can't.) Her reasons have a lot to do with not being able to handle the decision, other people (family) reacting, etc. A lot of "they will think this/that about me" or "he's talking to them trying to make me sound like this/that" (almost a little paranoid). And the Big One: not able to be alone. She sounded as though it's not just fear but terror of coping on her own or having her cultivated intellectually-in-control image collapse. Her practical skills are mushy. (Like mine about paperwork.) There've been some tensions with her daughter for the first time over negative comments poet makes -- odd stuff, like being sour at the grand-D's soccer game, "They're going the wrong way!" or comments like that. Don't understand that, but I figure her D is just very drained.
He continues his nasty, slicing put-downs and she continues to disintegrate every time he does. Afterward, She comes up each time with a "discussion topic" and says once they have those kinds of conversations, he often does seem to change. I believe that, just don't think it's enough, but it ain't my circus. She made a lot of comments about how people tolerate unhappiness "to survive." This is deep T work and I feel much better knowing that she decided she would make that happen.
On my end, this convo was better. I released a lot of my fix-it fantasies and just heard her, mostly. She needs so much (esp. assertiveness training) that she COULD seek out for herself there, but I thnk for now it's miracle enough that she's going to talk to a therapist and if she keeps that up, things could really turn around.
I hope so. But I'm in charge of me, and I am learning from how all that felt a few days ago. I didn't like it. She kept apologizing for "venting" and I said it would be my own responsibility to let her know: I'm happy to listen but just have a half hour today, or I'm not in a good place to listen right now, can we set up a Zoom for tomorrow? or This is good timing for me, I'm glad to hear you.
In a nutshell, this time went better and I didn't need extra wine afterward to recover!
Thanks for asking, Lighter. Relationships are precious and important, especially as I get older, so I really appreciate the attention and insights when I ramble through various sagas.
hugs
Hops
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PS Lighter, your friend's dilemma over the $50 enabling sounds exactly like what I went through with paying my D's cell phone. I agonized over that very question every time, and once I unpacked it here, everybody responded with so much thoughtfulness that I was eventually able to release that last thread.
What a huge gift. Does your friend have a therapist or support to think through the enabling piece? I know it's agony to do, when you love someone lost.
PPS About asking poet that pivotal question, You really love him, don't you? And just letting it ALL go. I had resistance when I read it. I think it might launch her back into the delusion that love fixes everything. I've heard her express love for him at different times, but in my mind, it's more "we have good moments and sometimes enjoy each other" (haven't heard that in a while but I have believed it). But my sense is she really is at the point when love is crumbling, at least to the point that the relationship is becoming intolerable. Where she is, I think, is more that she's saying "It's misery and not happy but other humans survive miserable relationships to survive" because for now, in her mind it's about SURVIVAL. Until that shifts (hopefully in T), love's beside the point.
But your point about me releasing even more, and not advising at all, is right. Dunno yet if I can do that absolutely (like the Google maps option) but I am doing it more.
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Maybe the suffering people we're struggling to move themselves out of their suffering have to feel the entire weight of their choices.....without someone carrying it with them?
Not sure, but we know what enblin.....errr...."helping" them gets us....errr....them.
I once took a communications class at University and my biggest take away was "help is the sunny side of control."
The second is upset people transfer their aggression onto others to relieve their discomfort.
Both ring true.
Lighter
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Both those quotes CLANGGGGG true!
Thank you.
A lot.
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LOL..... my first sentence in that last post! Can you tell I'm double tasking like made?
Hee
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Not sure what is going on here. I only pop in on occasion and I guess I don't keep up with the long convos.
Something that came to my mind is there was once a service for free phones. They are basic but hey it's a cell phone because it's considered a basic need. I guess I know this because I'm "trashy."
I used it years ago. It works and it seemed easy from what I recall.
https://www.assurancewireless.com/help-center/faqs
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Mouse, good to hear from you.
Resourceful people find whatever resources they can.
Good for you.
You ain't trash!
hugs
Hops
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Well, I'm disappointed in myself but thinking clearly about it.
I have been getting SOOOO excited about Poet's visit for my bday. Still looking forward to it greatly.
But I just slipped back into FIX-her mode when I got a long email. Her emotionally-abusive partner is obsessed with rescuing his unstable, violent, alcohol-addicted (to the point of nearly dying) felon son, who needs rehab again but whose insurance won't cover it, and who has literally stolen from his father over and over. She has long told partner that the son may not come to their (in her name) house. But lately partner's obsession has ratcheted up more and more (son's coming out of a psychiatric hold at hospital) and he's pressuring her to let the son stay there "until we find a rehab" and she's freaked out. Doesn't want him there but partner's telling her she is evil and selfish for not welcoming him, partner has the right to invite him, etc.
So she wrote me saying she would leave her home and go stay at her daughter's but is afraid of thefts and also of the son finding her financial info while she's not there and stealing money from her too. The kicker was her telling me that she feels like she's shaking inside, can't sleep, and then saying What should I do????
I think this all reminded me of my huge drawn-out struggle with M that culminated in a stroke. I actually fear for her. So I jumped into research mode and sent her a bunch of resources and advised her strongly (she DID ask) to end the relationship. (Her thesis is that she CANNOT be alone -- even now living 10 min. from daughter.)
Then, like clockwork, came the clean-up email: Well now I've talked to him so he's backed off the demand to have his son come, and if he doesn't comply he'll have to leave, etc. Now that I've talked to him he understands it, etc. A variation on countless times she's said:
--I explained it to him and he understands it now
--I can see he's realizing the situation
--He's not going to enable his son any more
She has a delusion that if she INSTRUCTS him enough about HIS codependency, she's in control. She never is, he never changes, he never stops resorting to emotional cruelty toward her when he's upset. Which he often is because he's afraid his son will die. I have compassion for his dilemma because I went through the exact same thing before I let go of my D.
Meanwhile, it's obviously very codependent of me to keep trying to help her. Her cleanup-email #2 was about how she hopes her daughter and I both see how tough she is. (When she wrote an epic description of how vulnerable she feels, my trigger....)
This is a big vent but the good news is that: I recognize the pattern. I am committed to a healthier friendship. I will continue to try to keep my balance if/when she loses hers. It's sad and difficult but she's worth it to me. Close friends aren't a dime a dozen. Close friends who are also poets are like dinosaurs.
There's a part of me that's not only annoyed with myself for lapsing, but also with her. Her crisis-messages are heartrending, but I can handle that. But the clean-up messages are an irritating blend of denial and more delusional "I'm back in control now because I 'won' this round and told him XYZ..." none of which I have any faith in whatsoever.
Arrrgh. Thanks for listening. I'm at least glad this was a one-day/one-night round of relapse and that I am not confused about what happened. With her or myself.
hugs
Hops
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Had a great conversation with my wise 80 y/o friend, who is never afraid of the stickiness or darkness of any topic or question, ever. She is a treasure.
Anyhow, I got another layer peeled down to take to T next week. WHY do I get so triggered by a frantic desire to rescue/fix her (or anyone)? Aha. It happens more for me in relationships with women. Cue: lifelong baggage fear of women's rejection. Present baggage about how excruciatingly important friendships are w/o having family. Ahhhahahahha. So, if I choose to no longer repeat the pattern of: Poet dumps heartrending stuff, I take it straight to heart and become myself very distressed by her distress. Then I try to find the answers for her or, if she has directly asked, advise her what to do. Then when the cleanup email (la la la, it's all better now) arrives the next day, I feel used/drained/and even pissed.
So my own work, my question can be: Does this (like everything) mean my fear of abandonment by female friends come from my earliest Nmom stuff? Even if it does, can facing that help me unhook my present response choices from child-Hops' vulnerability, so I stay secure in myself no matter what Poet's reaction is?
I think it'll obviously be a Yes. That feels good. Insight is worth everything. And I also am thinking when Poet and I Zoom on Sunday, I need to own my half of the experience with her, and let her dance away if she must, but also give her the opportunity to own that the reason it's so hard isn't due to her initial reaching out in distress (I never want her to feel she can't) -- but mostly due to her cleanup messages afterward, which are full of denial and lacking in serious followup plans.
She's got a right to take her own time and energy to heal or not heal (leaving when the pain of staying is more than the pain of letting go), as Lighter mentioned. But I've lost track of my own right to protect my equilibrium by finding enough detachment to ask the classic healthy question: "Gosh, what do you think you're going to do?"
I may be deluding myself, but feel as though I might be on the edge of a breakthrough. It's not serving either of us for me to join her in the repeated "game" as a willing accomplice. I don't have to go cold or anything like that, but do have to face that being her closest friend through this cycle has a cost, unless I get a grip and learn how to practice more distance.
Plus, wise friend said: If you join her in the pattern: She panics over being abused, you rush in to urge her to SEE and SEEK a different way, she replies with a pastiche of ego and posing to cover her feelings of vulnerability and shame, and then becomes distant for a while while she copes with those (which triggers YOUR feelings of abandonment), and then all is well until it starts again. And if you do keep cooperating with her pattern, you are helping her stay stuck. (Because she's not having to face the consequences/realities of not choosing a new path.)
I knew these precepts of codependency but think it got through to me more clearly this time, because the idea of hurting my friend or participating in a dance that keeps her stuck feels terrible. I am more motivated now to try a different approach. Even if I have to stick a note on my monitor to remind me during our next chat, that's fine. Because I'm not in charge of her but I am in charge of my own health. And I recognize that this pattern is not helping her and is harming me.
Whew.
Hugs
Hops
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Hi, Hops. I'm glad you have your very wise friend in 3D to bounce things off of.
It seems to take as much time as it takes to identify patterns without fight or flight shutting down logic and reason. I'm amazed when managing to sidestep survival mode making it possible to see so much than before. I'm experiencing something similar.
I hope it's possible to remain outside your Poet friend's spiral to remain as responsive and able to respond in the most helpful way possible while sidestepping reactivity and familiar rabbit holes of your own.
It's perfectly to fine to hold space for the Poet's distress so she can feel it and, hopefully, process it into clarity and knowing.
You can't want something more for the Poet than she wants for herself.
Your willingness to carry her distress with her likely relieves her discomfort enough she can put it away, until next time, when you're there for here again, or maybe just holding space for her to be safely IN her distress.
I'm shocked at all the choice and possibilities opening up when fight or flight is calmed so our entire brain comes online. Like flipping a switch.
You aren't just protecting your equilibrium when you sit with her distress without reacting. You're opening up possibility to sit with and experience your own distress and abandonment issues......me too.
I had to figure out giving space, instead of trying to save others, isn't giving up or being cold or lacking compassion.....its healthy and ya, creates distress at first, but therapists are there to guide and inform.
Allowing others to feel their distress and save themselves doesn't equal the behavior of a sociopath. It can feel that way, ime.
I try to remember the difference between helping someone heal or helping them stay where they are is everything. I have choices. Helping feels better than enabling, ime. Not at first, but it doesn't take long to show up then gets easier, ime.
I like the phrase....
"Let me know how that works out for you" when someone I care about is processing painful emotions.......it puts the weight of their choices squarely with them.
You're a good friend to the Poet, Hops. I think you're definitely have a breakthrough.
Lighter
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Thank you, Lighter. I really am confronting what I allowed to happen to myself. And your examples of counter-behavior ("Let me know how that works out for you") are great. What is helping most is I hit a threshold I've been wanting HER to hit. A sort of this-is-enough kind of moment. Not abandoning her or the friendship, but not wanting to go through this particular dance with her again.
I'm better. Zooming with Poet this afternoon. Or rather, listening. She's calm now and I am too. But what I want to notice is all the ingredients of the triggered tailspin I went into for a couple days. My T will help too, Weds. Ingredients are:
1) Poet sends helpless/hopeless/frightened email: "I'm shaking inside and can't sleep, I can't physically take this, I'm going to have to leave home, partner calls me selfish and evil for saying No to son who'll scare me and steal, and what should I do???
2) I launch into an answer. (You aren't the obstacle to remove from your own home, change all the locks, talk to the police about a TRO, see a lawyer, this is enough, your partner is manipulating/abusing you...)
That was when I lost my way. Feeling compelled to answer her question. I have a choice! (Duh.) Instead I needed to answer her question with a question. Gosh-what-are-you-going-to-do? And not email. I think a call/Zoom is better, let her own what she's saying in the present and just "be" present/empathetic. Not FIX IT FIX IT.
3) She talks to him and he backs down and after lots of "resource" info from me, writes me one paragraph about it's all better now, she's set a boundary. (Ummm.)
4) I'm upset for two days. Really freaking out. Recognize my fear of losing her (closest friend, age 74, not all that healthy). My own codependency on steroids.
5) Tripped over a cord and fell (no harm, just a near miss from a table edge). Ate half a huge pizza. Needed to talk to older friend to calm down. Got too stressed over a deadline for my last OLLI class prep which wasn't hard -- fear of Pres' disappointment etc (she was fine when we met--fear losing that friend too). Let kitchen/laundry pile up, etc.
Just, wow. I think T will advise me not to judge myself. I can feel myself not wanting to. Having friendly thoughts like: You're vulnerable to this pattern but you do see it. You have a plan for the next time. This was triggery because XYZ, so you can pay kind attention to XYZ (only "phamily" friend, fear of loss of connection, need more friends, can't give her anything she doesn't want for herself, okay to detach a bit and not confuse her giving up with my own fear that I'll give up, etc., aging alone fear, etc). Lotsa stuff that I get to continue working on like an adult, on my own and with T, and here, that don't need to mess up friendship.
I swear to god it's okay to continue growing up. I'll be having a learning experience on my deathbed one day. And that'll be okay!
Pooch is sleeping on her chenille and everything about her body is saying: I love my morning naps curled on your bed, this is peace.
I am a lucky human.
hugs
Hops
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Thank you, Lighter. I really am confronting what I allowed to happen to myself. And your examples of counter-behavior ("Let me know how that works out for you") are great. What is helping most is I hit a threshold I've been wanting HER to hit. A sort of this-is-enough kind of moment. Not abandoning her or the friendship, but not wanting to go through this particular dance with her again.
You KNOW the Poet would benefit from exiting an abusive relationship creating suffering in her life. That's a truth. I think that knowing leaves no space to just be and allow the Poet to be in her suffering..... just have it in your presence withou trying to save her or move her OUT of it, which is her work.
I posted a little about Eckhart Tolle's podcast on STORY...... there's knowing and then there's knowing AND allowing space for being present without knowing everything. I think that shift is what makes it possible for my girls to listen and be mmore responsive, less reactive, in my presense. I think it's something similar with your Poet friend, Hops.
I'm better. Zooming with Poet this afternoon. Or rather, listening. She's calm now and I am too. But what I want to notice is all the ingredients of the triggered tailspin I went into for a couple days. My T will help too, Weds. Ingredients are:
1) Poet sends helpless/hopeless/frightened email: "I'm shaking inside and can't sleep, I can't physically take this, I'm going to have to leave home, partner calls me selfish and evil for saying No to son who'll scare me and steal, and what should I do???
2) I launch into an answer. (You aren't the obstacle to remove from your own home, change all the locks, talk to the police about a TRO, see a lawyer, this is enough, your partner is manipulating/abusing you...)
That was when I lost my way. Feeling compelled to answer her question. I have a choice! (Duh.) Instead I needed to answer her question with a question. Gosh-what-are-you-going-to-do? And not email. I think a call/Zoom is better, let her own what she's saying in the present and just "be" present/empathetic. Not FIX IT FIX IT. My mother used to say "You can be too right, Lighter" and I think that's a real thing. KNOWING and bring right, without considering what one doesn't know..... leaves no oxygen in a room or space for being present with others, IME. I hope that makes sense. I'm still wrestling it to the ground; )
3) She talks to him and he backs down and after lots of "resource" info from me, writes me one paragraph about it's all better now, she's set a boundary. (Ummm.)
4) I'm upset for two days. Really freaking out. Recognize my fear of losing her (closest friend, age 74, not all that healthy). My own codependency on steroids. Can you identify your earliest memory of feeling this way, Hops?
5) Tripped over a cord and fell (no harm, just a near miss from a table edge). Ate half a huge pizza. Needed to talk to older friend to calm down. Got too stressed over a deadline for my last OLLI class prep which wasn't hard -- fear of Pres' disappointment etc (she was fine when we met--fear losing that friend too). Let kitchen/laundry pile up, etc. Just noticing those thngs, without judging yourself or fearing into the future is progress, Hops. For me, it feels like unlocking the doors beyond the rooms I've been confined to...consciously and unconscously. The next doors have sunlight and pleasant sounds and scents I didn't know existed. Those doors hold easier flow and being....... not bc of mechanically DOING and acting, but bc of what I've dropped and what I've picked up..... creativity and reason appear... usually unexpectedly and then I connect the dots backwards to see how the machine was buit and THAT I BUILT SOMETHING new withoout understanding what it was I was building.
Just, wow. I think T will advise me not to judge myself. I can feel myself not wanting to. Having friendly thoughts like: You're vulnerable to this pattern but you do see it. You have a plan for the next time. This was triggery because XYZ, so you can pay kind attention to XYZ (only "phamily" friend, fear of loss of connection, need more friends, can't give her anything she doesn't want for herself, okay to detach a bit and not confuse her giving up with my own fear that I'll give up, etc., aging alone fear, etc). Lotsa stuff that I get to continue working on like an adult, friendship.
I swear to god it's okay to continue growing up. I'll be having a learning experience on my deathbed one day. And that'll be okay!
Pooch is sleeping on her chenille and everything about her body is saying: I love my morning naps curled on your bed, this is peace.
I am a lucky human. I love imagining Pooch sleeping on her chenille..... chennille reminds me of my Grandma on the farm. Such comfort: )
hugs
Hops
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I zeroed in on the Tolle thing on your other thread Lighter, so I'll respond here rather than here and there...knowing while allowing space for NOT knowing. Wonderful stuff, so apt.
Just used more of it happily in a Zoom with Poet, who's all sparkly with relief. I did address it all directly, making a distinction between her vents, which I have no desire for her to stifle, and what I'm responsible for with myself...not lurching into rescue. It was a really good converation and made the last couple days' struggle very worthwhile.
It amazes me sometimes that once I learn something, or get an insight, I can apply it immediately in any relationship. Not perfectly, and practice not perfection is the point, but it felt great. We both celebrate and value our friendship, and I'm saying out loud that I intend to return to celebrating her doing HER own process in her own time. We got to laughing.
She analysed him a lot and talked more about her way of being with him. And I recognized how quickly she moves through distress to a new story. But she's been making statements about how she WOULD cope if they ended. She says she'd sell her house and move in with her D. I know that HER future lifestyle (living alone or with family) is right for HER and found my resistance melting away.
I do think her personal dependent nature is a natural result for her of experiences she's had. And she has every right to live as she wants and there are blessings and benefits in the idea of her not having an individual homeplace. Family means a great deal to her and she's got a great D and grandD.
I wound up feeling at ease and glad for her. And for me! Learned a lot during this episode of re-encountering my own work. Whew.
So glad to hear how much your hard work in therapy is benefitting you too, Lighter.
hugs
Hops
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Looking in from way outside, without any contextual references...
I had a flash on what's going on with your friend. It sounds like she doesn't respect her own perception/feelings about her situation; doesn't feel she's WORTH making life changes... and when she gets her "fix" of morale cheerleading, can happily continue within the same cage she built for herself. In essence, she's using "fixes" to build up a savings account balance to finally have enough self-respect to honor her own wants/needs.
It was just a momentary flash of seeing. Could be 1000 miles from reality or the truth.
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On another note, there is a limited release movie on Prime called "Women Talking" that Hol recommended to me, that I did watch... and am still processing days later. It's hard to watch for anyone who's been assaulted or in an abusive relationship BUT, it's worth sitting with those women "talking" about their options. B kinda ignored the movie, until I got angry over it. Not entirely sure what made me feel angry... or hopeless at the end of the movie. It's a deep reflection/fantasy experience I think.
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I was a little horrified by the whole exchange, ((((Amber)))). I thought I'd fixed me.
Her cycle of abuse/crisis appeal/minimizing followup/strangely happy right afterward. Then my cycle of horror at abuse/way too much "help"/deflation over her denial "cleanup"/drained.
I think we've identified it as clearly and openly as we can. I do not want to spend more years with an unhealthy reflexive response; this is an opportunity for me.
One article on CoD I read said something interesting: while one needs to recognize that over-the-top "help and rescue" can come from a big heart, it also comes from a big urge to control the situation. And that helps neither person. However, it's okay to influence, by being yourself and having the opinions/knowledge you have. It's a question of degree, I think. It's okay to OFFER help/info, but not to take off like a rocket with a crazy amount of it. And, any help offer needs to be clearly accepted before you involve yourself. Influence is not control. Nice distinction.
Your flash is interesting and makes intuitive sense. Her beliefs about herself are so deep that she's integrated them, and the plan to go directly to her D's basement to live if he leaves is based on not thinking even a year alone would be worth doing...is sad to me. But just fatalistic to her, since she views herself as a human who cannot function alone. Same time, she was pushing back against her self-image some yesterday, saying I CAN do it until the house sells.
I think I also echo a lot of her fears within my own life, which increases my tiger tendencies. Huh! Wild thought just hit. I wonder if one reason it's so destabilizing to me (my cycle) is because in an unconscious way, I've been formed by my mother's family and the child sexual abuse that took place in it. Never happened to me (just one incident in the back of a car when I was that age...an older boy directing me to fondle him, which I did because I was sweet and obedient) -- but my mother and her sisters had the incestuous father (dunno how much happened to my mother) and her damage ran all our lives at subtle levels, atop her narcissism. SO complex.
Anyway, I wonder if that kind of fear can be generational. Maybe in Poet's damage from being abused (not violently but coercively) that day in Africa at age 4 ... there's something of my mother's twisted psyche that I just sense. And rail at.
Huh. Well, back to my own bidness. But thanks for that flash thought, Amber.
hugs
Hops
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So, more stuff I've learned.
Lighter, you asked about earliest memory. I think there was a very early one of being left out on the terrace in a playpen, and crying, and our collie Laddie washing my face. A more vivid one was when my mother taught at the elementary private school and I attended 2nd grade there on "faculty scholarship". I was being bullied by a group of girls on the playground. I looked up and my mother was standing frozen at the edge of the area, watching. I had the childish thought that it'd be okay now, but she did nothing. (Later in life I thought about the memory and had compassion for her...she felt she couldn't intervene because...nepotism?)
My T thinks my over-reaction to Poet traces directly to my relationship with Nmom. She said she believes I was trained to be extremely attuned to Nmom's distress or displeasure and would feel panic unless I were fixing it, soothing it. That's true. Our entire family revolved around answering her constant calling out, being watchful of her comfort, etc. My Dad, too. She was never rageful or abusive but controlled us through facial expressions and manipulation. (I don't think she did this consciously.) I also think a lot of my hyper-empathy (which is painful) is inborn.
Lastly, I thought I'd use a reminder for Zooms with Poet. Three lines on a little note by my monitor: BE PRESENT. DON'T FIX. I AM SAFE. The T was very enthused.
Seems a little childish but I need a prop. Same way I needed "N.B. for no blurting" on my hand in work meetings as a way to contain ADD.
I feel as though I've reconnected with reality. The whole panic to fix is a distortion and a reflex from my childhood, which I don't need any more. Hated these feelings.
hugs
Hops
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Wow. Such a time and lots to tell.
Poet visit went overall well and overall brought us closer.
I learned more about her (early abuse, date rapes - more about battering husband) and she about me (mainly a detailed description of what it can feel like inside ADD brain). She seemed quite happy, spent a lot of time writing. Rained nearly all week which was too bad, but we did meet a friend downtown one sunny day and she was happy to be shopping. One difficult morning she regressed and shocked me by complaining at length that I'd been leaving her too alone... and I was baffled because I'd repeatedly checked on her to be sure she was happy, comfy and relaxed and she always said she was just fine. (And she'd already known about my delayed sleep phase issue.) Another time she got hissy because my TV wouldn't work, and said she always watches TV with her partner evenings, etc. I felt pretty exasperated but held my cool and just said I felt some hurt because I'd really put effort into making things welcoming and comfy. She backed down and said "I'm being too dependent, and childish." Couldn't argue there. A lot of her volatility was due to steroids, which she's taking for a horrid immune reaction she had to her 1st booster, after having changed vax brands. It's rare but conclusively studied (bullous pemphigoid). Sounded like misery and she may have to deal with it for a long time. But we got through that friction honestly and moved on. I felt both sad and relieved when she left but am glad we did it and would welcome her back again. I did learn I would not want to travel with her or be her housemate, just as well to know that.
Bday party today was just as heavenly as I'd imagined. About a dozen people came out of the 30-some I'd sent the invite to, but I was fine with that -- especially since I'd had to bump it a week later and quite a few people already had previous plans for the rain date. (Plus, I didn't ask them to RSVP.) I was especially happy that two of the poets in my workshop group came -- one from two hours away. It was gorgeous, the rescued farm animals completely delightful, and I took (and left) enough mini carrots to feed them all for a week. Cows, pigs, goats, lambs, donkeys, chickens...I was just blissed out. The owners of the rescue are an incredibly nice couple who have worked for several years restoring and creating the sanctuary. Hundreds of gorgeous acres but most of the animals (all very friendly) are in well designed areas around a central space and barn, so access was easy for oldish folks to interact with them. Cows and a few goats were napping together in the barn for a while and looking into the window opening at them was like looking into a Brueghel painting. Such peace.
People had a good time, friends enjoyed meeting other friends and I just felt deeply grateful, happy and content. Though exhausted. We did get rain after an hour or so but there was a wonderful covered deck off the barn and we dragged chairs up there. I love spring rain showers. Got a bit soaked but had brought an extra shirt to change into. Pooch got practically drunk smelling my jeans when I got in, can't imagine the aromas she detected!
Now it's time to rest and then start dealing with my absolute wreck of a house tomorrow. One step at a time.
hugs
Hops
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That sounds so nice Hops, I'm really glad you had such a nice day out. There is something so lovely about animal snuggles, more so if you know they've had a crappy start and now they're happy and well looked after. I'm really pleased it all went so well and with so many people, too! Nice when such a number will make an effort to gather and enjoy. I hope you enjoy your well earned rest now, too.
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Turned out to be 15 people! I'm still blissed out and don't think I'll wait another decade to do it again. WISH I knew how to post pix with a PM, would send to all'a y'all.
xxxooo
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I would love to see pics, Hops! I can smell the goats and feel their fur! Just love love love petting zoos!
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What's special about this place is that it is a real rescued-animals farm sanctuary, nothing zoo-ey. It's not open to the public or selling tickets. It's a pretty quiet nonprofiit that's gradually building its profile in small steps. Such kind people and the animals all acted like they knew they'd landed in heaven. Peaceful, relaxed, almost no squabbling, friendly, curious and very into baby carrots.
No idea why the owners responded as they did to my email but I'm so glad they did. What I loved just as much was seeing this group of 15 friends (most 70+ ish) tap back into their child-selves and enjoy patting and talking to all these sweet creatures who gathered at the fences to say hello. Showed me other sides of these people. And also to see the little groups of people I know (who don't know each other) overlap, mingle and enjoy chatting with each other.
Whole thing really lifted my spirits in a huge way, like a celebration of life, nature's beauty, and love.
hugs
Hops
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I can't think of a better way to spend a birthday, Hops.
The owners likely responded the way they did, bc you're a great writer with an amazing heart..... how could they say NO to your request? They couldn't: )
Lighter
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Thanks, ((((Lighter)))) for those kind words.
Still going back and forth with owner. I'd like to support in a real way but not with donations of money, so I've proposed doing marketing copy and/or edits if they're open to it. Already have plans to take a friend who CAN donate and her g-dtr out in June.
Yay! Re-visit my new friends the rescued cowspigsgoatssheepchickens! Woo hoo! This will be months of therapy in one, each time I go.
hugs
Hops
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On an inexplicable impulse, called my retired friends in NC. (The couple who lost their son and got the call when we were together one day.) Best humans ever.
He answered and told me she died Monday. I'd known she'd been ill, but there it is.
Very sad but sweet and deep-friendship conversation. I feel grateful I had the impulse. Will go visit him in fall I think. Stay with his daughter or their retirement place's guest room.
He's a brave and soulful person and will manage his grief. Still, hard to see their union of I think nearly 60 years end.
hugs
Hops
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Awww,, Hops..... I know it's sad, but they had 60 years together and that's amazing to me.
I hope you do visit and it's a comfort to all 3 of you.
Where in NC do they live? Not specifically, of course.
Lighter
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Not too far from Charlotte.
He's a dear man who has drawn in many new friends after just two years there.
I think he'll be okay but it'll be hard. He has an implanted pain pump but suffers quite a lot from back issues.
To me the unusual impulse to call was...one of those things.
hugs
Hops
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Sounds like you have some travel plans to put in place, Hops.
Lighter
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Hopefully I'll feel up to it by fall.
Just don't, for now.
:(
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I think the Fall is plenty soon enough, Hops.
Not feeling up to it doesn't mean it's good or bad... it's just not time.
Visiting in the cool or Autumn seems more desirable than the heat of summr, anyways.
Lighter
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This recent-widower friend is coming to visit in September.
I'm glad.
Must tidy house.
And, I have a huuuuge crush on this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POSINUv6cjE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POSINUv6cjE)
hugs
Hops
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Well that's terrific news, Hops.
I love fall weather.
Here's to enjoying the creation of sacred space to enjoy with friends..... drinks by the firepit for all!
Lighter
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I've missed a lot of posts over the last few months, Hopsie, and hadn't seen this one. I know it was a while ago now but I wanted to say I'm very sorry that you lost your friend, and your friend lost his wife. I hope he was/is able to come and visit you. It's so very hard when something so lovely comes to an end. I know it happens with everything in life, but still. Hugs to you x
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Poet is struggling and I can't help her. Accepting that, releasing it.
But still sad and disturbed.
She's putting together a book of her poetry with illustrations from a friend of hers. This took ambition, focus, discipline and imagination. I think a reading she gave recently at a huge downtown church that's into poetry kickstarted her. She did a stunning collaborative event where the poems were spaced apart by episodes of remarkable sound and images of the elements: earth/air/fire/water/space. I've written a blurb for the back of her book she's pleased with.
The sad part is that she goes through intense attacks of insecurity and self-hatred, and goes after her own self-esteem with razor jaws. It makes me so sad for her. She was the quiet mouse in a family of very high-powered people, and that plus her abuse in Africa when she was very young....just broke her. She feels invisible and enraged by that but on some level has discarded herself. Ego comes out to give her strength. She's performing but not present. Breaks my heart.
So there's that. Another small part of me gets bothered by how she sends me now and then an infernally accurate description of her psychic state, which is agony, and then next time we speak she's all la-la-la, everything's fine now. But maybe she doesn't realize how distressing it is. I DO want to be there for her, and will continue. But also sometimes feel dumped on -- she's saying, I can't hold this much dark and sticky self hatred, you hold it for me. And of course I try to lift her out of it. Then feel sickened myself.
There. Nothing to do really. I hope I haven't just done the same thing I'm complaining about ... dumped HER stuff on Y'ALL while trying to get it off ME!
hugs,
Hops
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Well the good thing about posting online is that people dip in and out as they want to so there's no dumping - we all make choices whether to log in or not, read or not, reply or not. There's no pressure or obligation so I think this is a good place for you to let off some steam about someone else's steam.
Her book sounds amazing :) Brilliant thing to be involved in. Is there anyway you can avoid reading/trying to lift her out of it every time? I'm just wondering if you can stop reading when you realise it's going to be one of those emails, reply with a 'sorry things aren't great, did you see the review about such and such publication' and then wait for the 'everything's rosy again' contact? It sounds like her insightful moments affect you more than they do her.
It is very hard, I had a friend at one time who used to vent for an hour, on the phone, without drawing breath. Always about the same events, similar to your friend, there was a childhood event that had caused this loop and having been stuck in so many of those in my life I listened, soothed, advised - and waited for the next call to go through it all again. It wore me out so badly and yet it wasn't really necessary. I could have put the phone on the side, come back an hour later and she wouldn't have even known, she'd have just been at the end of her monologue by then. Unfortunately for me the one and only time I did say no to her ended the friendship which made me very sad, it was good in other ways. I do understand anyone's reluctance to do things differently, it feels like walking on egg shells sometimes xx
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You're exactly right, Tupp -- the challenge is to continue practicing the detachment muscles with her. I'm waaay better at it than I was a few years ago. She's coming to stay for a week later this month so I'd better get those exercises underway.
And of course, the la la la everything's just fine email arrived in two days. I wish she could perceive and take on her own patterns but I think her stuff is so entrenched that hoping for change is unrealistic. I actually feel better when I let go of hoping. I've got plenty of my own patterns to work on.
I'll get good practice both in listening and caring about someone important to me, though, and in NTTFI. Not trying to fix it. We'll have fun too: puppy, poet friends and she's promised me a belated bday pedicure!
hugs
Hops
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I felt both more detached and braver when she started talking to me about the book's intro.
It's a somewhat transparent effort to TELL the readers how to interpret, recognize and value the poems. I'm used to more modest and not-self-forward comments from poets in their collections. So after we talked a while, I told her so. And she greatly appreciated it and is sending me her intro and bio to edit.
She completely got it. I told her (lovingly) that the insecurity was cropping up in her "author voice" and that her lovely poems can (and should) speak for themselves.
Whew. Meanwhile, during the tail end of our Zoom (I was outside) Pup completely disappeared and I thought he was gone forever. PANIC. Then he climbed out of a perennial bed, all proud, with a dead vole (or something similar) to deposit on the doorstep.
Is there a thing such as toxic dog masculinity? LOL. So relieved to have him back.
hugs
Hops
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I'm glad you're practicing acceptance and speaking your truth. I wish it felt more natural/comfortable than it does.
Sounds like you'll have a nice visit with poet friend, Hops.
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Thanks, Lighter. I'm truly praticing it and feeling much more at ease.
hugs
Hops
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Puppy sounds like he'll be a good distraction if things get intense when your friend visits, Hops :)
I have found it very difficult to disentangle myself from friends when they're hell bent on staying in whichever loop they're in. It's different when someone's in a situation they can't get out of - bereavement, for example. Or if they're working their way through it all and need some help with that. But watching people self destruct, brush themselves down and go back for more is hard. Especially when they're in a situation they could walk away from. But - we've all got our situations to deal with. Hopefully it will be a nice few days with plenty of puppy fun and poetry. Maybe not too much of the heavy stuff xx
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Pup therapy plus poetry sounds like the BEST recipe for my summer, Tupp!
Thanks, hon.
xxoo
hugs
Hops
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How did you know things WOULD get intense during her visit, Tupp? Psychic!
Overall we've had a very good time, but things went south yesterday. Despite loads of correspondence in advance during which I'd lovingly explained to her that she WOULD be on her own during the mornings (my long-term, upside-down sleep), I had one afternoon where I was so wiped out (after the evening before spent arranging a celebration for her with other poet friends at a winery, which got verrrry complicated because she demanded a reservation in AC which they didn't offer -- we stayed on a huge veranda with fans and the temperature did ease off after about an hour) -- I told her I would also have to rest again during the afternoon.
She basically had a refined tantrum, and began lecturing me on how I'm not NORMAL. I don't have a NORMAL schedule and don't do things the way NORMAL people do, etc etc etc. I asked her gently, "What do you need from me?" and she said "I need COMPANY!" This goes back to her absolute panic about being alone and soothing herself. Unfortunately, by the time she'd lectured me about NORMAL, using the word vehemently about 10 times, I'd had it. I was hurt and angry.
I know she might get bored, stuck here. But I didn't cause the heat wave and she didn't follow up on multiple ideas she'd agreed to before she came: make lunch dates with old friends (she made one), ride the bus (there's a stop a block away), go downtown and enjoy a cafe or the library, etc. She didn't do one thing to cushion herself from the terror of not being with someone (iow, me) at all times.
And when I sat with her for another hour despite how tired I was, she would just play Sodoku or whatever, and I felt like a nanny. She was (horrors) beginning to remind me of my Nmom, who likewise needed a constant audience. And bossy to boot.
I'm saddened by this and afraid our friendship may be winding down. When it's good, her intelligence and empathy have meant a lot to me. But maybe it's really mostly a one-way street.
Or maybe I just can't deal with criticism. Her criticisms aren't unrealistic -- I HAVE gotten into some awful spirals in recent years. I've been very open with her. It's a vulnerability, though, and I feel as though when she doesn't want to face herself, she projects her stuff into others. And has no idea how condescending and controlling she can be. Or, it's the only way she knows how to feel safe. (I guess, too, she was hitting me where it hurts, because my dysfunctional lifestyle is often something I feel bad about. Then again, I live alone and owe nobody else control.)
Ah, well. I hope it heals over time but this was our first big rift. It reminded me of how, when M was frustrated with me, he would go off into a scathing monologue about my faults and just slice, slice, slice. By the tenth time she said "NORMAL" I was ready to blow. And then of course I was too upset to rest anyway.
Wound up driving her to the mountains to see her old house, which I was happy to do, but both Pup and I were beyond exhausted when we got home. She leaves tomorrow and this afternoon we're taking my dear oldest friend to a movie, which should be nice. "Thelma."
Sad hugs,
Hops
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Hmph. Well, my two cents, for what they're worth.
There is nothing at all wrong with your sleep cycle/lifestyle/needs or anything else. It's sleep, not some bizarre demand you make of other people. You have your routine and it's what keeps you ticking over, functioning, getting on with what you need and want to do. It's got sweet bleep bleep to do with anybody else, particularly when you factor in heat, age (I don't mean that in a rude way but we all tire more easily as we get older) and organising/socialising and just having someone else around 24/7. I get tired after a few hours, you've had days of this. So all this faff about normal can get in the bin, quite frankly.
Secondly, if we are going to talk about normal, it is not normal for a grown ass woman to be incapable of spending a few hours alone and/or being aware and responsive to someone else's efforts. There is no reason she couldn't have gone for a walk, watched a film, read a book, wandered off to the library for a bit or anything else. Not start shouting and being such a spoilt brat. She sounds like she could have done with a nap herself.
What she should have been doing, in my opinion, is thanking you for everything you've done and organised, including all the driving about and taking care to keep the noise down so you could catch up on some sleep.
Frankly, she sounds horrible. She dumps on you with the endless husband drama, she behaves like a child when you've already done so much for her over these few days and was she not also the one who got all huffy about you wanting to keep physical space during the pandemic? I remember something about a six feet apart walk that caused anger, was that her?
I hope you do get to catch up on some sleep once she's gone and that you don't give yourself a hard time about this. She's behaved very badly, I'm finding myself hoping that pup has a poo in her purse :) Lol xx
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Two cents if they're made of gold, Tupp. Thank you so very much. Sometimes having someone be indignant on your behalf wipes away pain in a nanosecond. Thank you, truly.
She wasn't the one who pitched a hissyfit about my plans for meeting safely in the pandemic (which I was so proud of). That was my other friend who couldn't handle not having everything Just the Way She Wanted.
A beneficial path for me to ponder is WHY have I chosen and/or attracted so many people who are self absorbed in such an overt way into my life? Is it just the obvious thing everyone here knows by heart: how due to Ntraits in one parent or another we were trained to soothe, placate or cater to people who are either very needy or to whom we are so kind that they feel entitled around us, etc?
I know I'm a kind person and very loyal friend. So when somebody unloads on me implying I'm not NORMAL (because in that moment they want something I'm resistant or unable to give) I really feel ... crap feelings.
But. I also think my vaunted sensitivity includes sensitivity to criticism which could be constructive. One thing Poet was going on and on about was how the "normal" routines would improve my life, basically. And about that, she's right. I just had been struggling with other personality nuances that were revealing themselves all week, that I'm sure come from her personal deep, deep insecurities. She was determined to dress up and Make An Entrance at the gathering I'd invited all her local poet friends to. She put on an elegant outfit and looked lovely and I told her so sincerely. Then she went "are you sure?" over and over. THEN she pressured me to also dress up (for her it's very feminine, elegant style that isn't my style). Repeated it. I said "why does it matter to you what I wear?" and she said "do it for me." I was feeling major Nmom vibes. But to placate her I made an effort and looked quite good, if I say so myself. One of the poets asked me if I'd ever modeled, and I said "only naked, for an artist." Jeez.
I know how painfully damaged she was by abuse from an adult male at a village latrine in Africa. I believe it scarred her terribly and she's avoided dealing with it deeply her whole life. Hence, a first husband who beat her (she laughs about it -- laughs about a lot of dark things) and her current partner who's verbally cruel and cutting at least weekly.
So my heart is wrung by all that for her. Just comes moments where I'm tired of the manifestations of how she overcompensates for the damage. Simplest example is one my Nmom had, so pretty triggering -- lecturing. All the time. She issues instructions and flat statements about How Things Will Be Done. I bristle. Etc etc.
Anyhow, first thing I said after our argument was "I still love you." What got me was her not OWNING what she was really talking about. Meaning, I am upset because if you go rest I am stuck alone, to be happy by myself. She said it at first and then veered into all the criticism of me, which she couched as "I'm just concerned for your wellbeing." And she went on and on and my insides were simmering.
In fairness, she does care about me. But I was pissed that she turned it into a critique of me just as M would -- insulating herself from analysing her OWN issues. That made me mad because it felt dishonest. She kept using the "I'm concerned" line and only stopped when I just said bluntly, "I'm not buying it."
Anyway, she has a tolerance for arguing that I just don't, so we'd never live happily together, I think. Good to know. She craves more attention and reassuance and praise than I can deliver.
I do remember once when I talked to my T about her, the T said, "I think she takes too much." Hmmm.
Okay, I'm purged. I really am grateful that y'all read this. I fear it's tedious.
Oh, last thing. I also struggle because of my OWN fear of being alone. I don't have many really close friends. So the prospect of loss makes it harder to deal sometimes. I am an odd duck, and don't live like the local ladies, hardly. Often eccentric, and nearly always unconventional. Hard to find friends who embrace it all.
Except here, maybe! xxxooo
hugs,
Hops
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(((((((((((Hopsie)))))))))))) I nodded all the way through and I do get it, especially the loneliness thing. And I do think one of the hardest things about being in relationships with the sort of people who have this level of neediness is knowing that boundaries and refusals can spark rejection. And we all know how painful that can be, particularly when we're in situations that mean any kind of loss is keenly felt. But equally I feel being around people that don't see us is a kind of loneliness. You're very understanding of her problems and her point of view and yes, we can all take a moment out to see how other people's behaviour might shine a light on our own in some way. But what about you in all of this? You just lost Pooch. Pup sounds gorgeous but he must be exhausting - in a good way, but exhausting none the less. Your D reappeared not so long ago, that must have raised a tsunami of emotions, all of which you've probably dealt with alone. You've had your various health problems in recent years, all of which continue to need managing and watching over, you don't have family/partner/endless amounts of money to make your current life easier, you've got your own issues with regard to past abuse, difficult relationships and the general unfairness of life. You're not in an easy situation yourself and you haven't had an easy life. I think it's quite miraculous that you needed a nap rather than a vat of gin. Many people would have opted for the latter.
You don't have to eat all the chocolates in the box, you can just take out the ones you like. I don't think it's worth trying to 'deal' with this situation because it's just not how she does life. I think you can be responsive when she wants to talk about poetry, or good films or anything else that's good for you and ignore the next 'woe is me' email about the husband, or the next demand for your time or your energy that doesn't line up with what you want or need. Enjoy the aspects of the friendship that are nice and avoid situations where the other stuff takes precedence. She knew your sleep schedule beforehand, if it's problematic for her she should have come up with a way of dealing with it in advance. She wasn't concerned for you at all, a concerned person would sit down with you in a calm moment to talk about their worries for your situation and ask if there's anything they could do that might help you change things or get some outside support, not berate you for having normal bodily functions, compel you to ignore your own needs and then ignore you for doing so. That's horribly abusive behaviour. Don't let your compassion for other people's situations leave you without compassion for yourself, Hopsie xx
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((Hops)) the whole way through your description I was thinking.....
1.Hops is buying into the Poet's criticisms and ....
2. The Poet has no ability to follow through with the strategies to keep herself occupied on her own. She was doing her best, but her needs unhinged her reason.
The fellowship is the round/soft/comforting side of this relationship.
The sharp/cutting/hurtful side is about the wounded and protective parts....of you and Poet.
Poet seems to have fleas.....I think, from her relationshit with her abusive h...I think. Or maybe this is all about her AND you placating difficult parents/people from your childhoods? Familiar and practiced pathways.
Maybe she can't see it? Nose on her pebbles, and all that.
You can see it. You can sense the edge of your boundaries, discuss them, attempt remedies proactively. See it coming. Watch Poet crumble as her wounded parts lose sight and ability to correct her boat.
I think that's similar to what happens in relationships with her h.....she goes into survival mode and behaves irrationally. Buys into his criticisms. Makes bargains with herself to avoid the darkness of feeling abandoned and alone.....even though she has friends and she has you, as her vessel to place and hold darkest truth.....the verbal/emotional abuse and her inability to choose self care and boundaries over verbal/emotional abuse cycle that's her "normal." Familiar to you both. Perhaps she sees this as a bargain between you. Unspoken, but binding?
Terrible thing, but familiar and perhaps it's still in her uncomfortable comfort zone.....but way outside yours, imo.
I think both of you put up with hurtful parents and weren't allowed boundaries. Both deal with boundary transgressions as crisis, shifting into survival mode, bc of unfortunate buy into the criticisms, used against you like a surgeon's knife.
If there's no buy in.... the energy/reactivity dissipates and it's easier to see what's really there, IME.
You see more than Poet sees, but it's still her stuff rubbing against your stuff.....raw and reactive. You can get your nose off the pebbles to see what's there. You can.
Reviewing boundaries/enforcement of same coupled with clarity around your entitlement will go a long way to define how to handle your relationship going forward with Poet, IME.
You're mixing up caretaking her feelings and the word enmeshed pops up. It's not your job to caretake her, her feelings, her darkness to preserve connection.
I wonder if there's some stuck unconscious belief for you...... that's your job....you felt worthy of love IF you kept your end of that horrible bargain in your FOO. Caretake others at your expense. That's love.
Poet, when not in survival mode, wouldn't want you to do that.... wouldn't want you to give up your boundaries and surrender them unto her to preserve her comfort.....I think.
Funny how the world shakes down into those comfortable with boundaries and those not comfortable, IME. Poet isn't allowed boundaries with her h. She trounces yours, just the same.
It doesn't have to be profoundly sad and unchanging.
I wonder what would have happened had you spoken to her as you would speak to a child....with compassionate authority. No shaming. I'd like to think both your inner children would be comforted and calmed, a bit.
Our boundaries keep us safe. It's the best intentions, those outside our lane, confusing and complicating things, IME. Sometimes we don't need to understand the why of these things, IME.
We take care of what's ours and give others the opportunity to respond/react/tantrum and correct or not correct, but we can't control them or the relationship through sacrifice of self care and boundaries. That's just repeating old uncomfortable and destructive patterns that never worked, IME.
Time for something new and hopeful.
Modeling healthy boundaries for Poet gives her framework for her relationshit with h, imo.
Sure, it'll be uncomfortable. It won't be easy to state with compassion, bc of your stuff rubbing against her stuff, but maybe writing it out will help.
If you draw up, far enough, and see the situation with emotional distance it's not so scary, IME. Nose off pebble isn't an easy maneuver under fire. You've been under fire, Hops.
Some distance will help and judgement around this should be suspended, IME. This can be catalyst for clarity and change.
If you view it as bad/threat/proof you're X...
it's not helpful, IME.
Just see what's really there and try not to judge it, ((Hops.))
Stand in your boundaries and trust you're worthy of them.
Lighter
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Oh Hops. I get it.
It sounds very much like what Hol does to me, especially the "you're not normal". But, being who I am and having lived through what I have, my bent (after registering the hurt, then anger) is to inform her directly that I have designed my current existence to suit myself - it doesn't have to please or satisfy ANYONE else. And while I accept HER perception that I'm "losing it" by not being like her, running 90 miles an hour all the time with peak overthinking an analyzing, I don't believe it's accurate about me.
Take it or leave it, I'm who I want to be, living as I like, and I can rise to occasions or not - as I choose. Tough titties, if she doesn't like it (as we used to say). I get exhausted by too much "other people's stuff" which is why I socialize only occasionally. I don't NEED a growth mindset at my age, I don't need to "become a better person"... I function rather well given all my different hats and incorrigible tendency to bite off more than I can chew sometimes.
I'm not prone to those kinds of criticisms; I push back. Non-conformist to my marrow. No one puts baby in a corner. That probably makes me an insufferable asshole sometimes... but in my perception, that's what I think of Hol's "perceptions" of me, too. I don't think it's normal to have social time spent with one-sided "criticism" and "you should's" either, especially when I didn't complain about a single thing. Just needed some pleasant downtime and cameraderie.
I will never understand this idea that there is "perfect pattern" of being that we all must toil to achieve. I'm OK with not understanding it. I'll be me, make my mistakes, apologize, and go on my merry way knowing "you can please some of the people, some of the time but you can't please ALL the people ALL of the time".
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Aaaaand, I talked with her about it the next day and explained everything about what was triggering for me about her lecture/rant about "normal"...and she listened respectfully. She also talked more openly than she ever has before about how she gets triggered by massive feelings of abandonment, in situations that aren't about that at all.
It was a very good, respectful and loving conversation. And I just dropped her at the airport and am ready to be blissfully alone again!
As long as there's both learning and love, I can deal better with such dramas. And hopefully wind them down before they build up. It's hard to be psychologically nimble in the middle of a triggering conflict, but even if it's only in the aftermath that I fully figure out my part, it's worth trying for a valuable friend. She appeared just as eager to be cooperative and appreciative today, and I was grateful. We parted comfortably.
(You couldn't pay me to be her housemate, however.)
hugs
Hops
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Aww, for some reason y'all's replies loaded for me after I posted my last.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.
I'm walking on a lovely sun-dappled path in a forest of sisterhood.
You each deserve a point-by-point appreciation which I can't do as I've got a poetry thing coming up, but YOU GET IT. You all get me, you get her, and you get it.
That is worth more than I can express in the moment.
huge grateful hugs,
Hops
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I'm glad the visit ended in a good note, Hops.
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Thanks.
I'm feeling pretty sobered by the things that came out, but trying to hold on to the good (I did react to her rant by stepping it up here).
I just can't emotionally afford to be super invested in a controlling relationship. With anyone. But we're fine, back to email for a year, and I'll let the new boundaries form within myself. Don't need to make any pronouncements about where we are or anything. I just don't think I'll be able to feel the same way, going forward.
I'm still bewildered why this similar scenario has happened with two friends in a year. Answers lie within. I'm going back to see the Sikh soon. Might just go once a month, but I know he'll be a steadying influence.
Yikers. This has all reminded me to go join with UU groups and get out more.
Once the heat wave passes. Going to be 98 this afternoon, ugh.
hugs
Hops
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"I just can't emotionally afford to be super invested in a controlling relationship"
I think that might be the bit, Hopsie, because reading it, it sounds like you feel you need to somehow excuse/explain/be excused from being in that situation. That no-one should ever be in, once, for even a minute. I think the problem with other people's lives/situations/circumstances is that you can't interact with someone and not be affected by their stuff. I purposely keep away from women with man drama because I end up feeling like I'm in a relationship with that man, and I don't want him. I think there's a fine line between being supportive, and being a whipping boy, truthfully. I do agree that not making a big announcement about it all is the best way to go. Also glad this all happened near the end of the visit :) Would have been an even harder week had it happened at the start.
Good to get out more and see a proactive therapist :) Sorry about the heat. I'll swap you a few degrees, high sixties is maximum for us just now (and that's if you can get out of the wind!). Lol x
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Have you seen the Sikh yet, Hops?
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Thanks, Tupp. Poet and I are okay, we had a Zoom and I said some things a bit more directly. Told her that when she's frustrated about something, she can lash out, and so forth. Tripped over something political and when I mentioned I intended to watch the debate, she got a condescending smile and said oh yes, you're repeating the XX cable channel talking points, and that pissed me off. I expressed myself without heat and calmly, but by the end of our chat she actually reverted to child state "I love everyone, I don't mean to hurt anyone, I'm just little [Poet] in a corner..." and I felt sad for her and saw vividly how she feels inside, and where all the insecure overcompensation and knowitallitis has taken her. I didn't feel responsible for fixing it, though. She really did get frozen in childhood experiences of feeling abandoned and neglected, for good reasons. And I'm sad for her. She's full of sensitivity and resentment and sometimes I'm not prepared for the lashings to come out (she used to suppress anger around me but as we've known each other longer it's more likely to happen now and then). Anyhow. We're okay, I'm just a little disillusioned and more detached. It's probably better. She told me she wants to work on condescension and I said I need to work on not taking things personally.
I'm not upset about it any more. I've noticed I've been withdrawing from doing almost anything social lately. Don't feel like going anywhere. One loyal friend always asks me to go do long drives or seek out restaurants and I don't wanna. Just being a lump right now.
I have house news! Oh shit, prolly told y'all already. I have a gorgeous new black screen door. Elegant and works with the patio stuff and I'm really happy with it. Did it even though it cost a lot. I'd stared at that flocked, dented, ripped-screen aluminum door for 10 years and wanted to replace it so much. Finally took a bite and did.
hugs
Hops
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Lighter, I did see the Sikh. Being around him is like sitting next to a clear creek with a little waterfall up the mountain feeding it. It was really good to reconnect and I'll be seeing him monthly for a while. I gave him the unvarnished view of "depths to which I'd sunk" (about my home) and felt completely free to tell it like it is. He interrupts sometimes but with wise questions. Mostly along the lines of defining what I want.
He's a gift. Had a nice blue turban on, with a blue shirt. He's handsome, too. :)
hugs
Hops
PS -- Present for y'all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FciQeRGYFlw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FciQeRGYFlw)
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Hops: I'm glad the Sikh is seeing patients face to face....and a little jealous. My T stopped some time ago.
Lighter
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Welp, things came to a head with Poet.
Good news to start. She made her annual visit to see me and celebrate my bday, and to reunite with poet friends here. I was very happy she was coming. I planned a "Lazy Women's Open House/Winery" from 2-5 that Sunday, said RSVP appreciated but not required, and 20 dear people came. For me there is nothing, really nothing, happier than seeing people I love meet and enjoy other people I love. That's exactly what happened and it was my PHamily and all holidays I avoid transmogrified into one happy occasion. Several wrote me afterward to say what a wonderful group, etc.
The not good news was that Poet became more irritable with each day and near the end of the week blew up at me after I nicely asked her to use the bathroom fan (steam) and not hang damp towels on the (antique) bed. I think she's unhappy generally, has gained a lot of weight so doesnt feel beautiful, and is struggling to deal with aging vulnerabilities.
I get it. But she can also be controlling and condescending and issues lectures all the time. Errrgh. For me, the thing that hit was being railed at about "not knowing the proper social protocol for how to treat a guest who should be left the fuck alone!" Meaning, don't ask me about wet towels.
I was speechless but got her to the airport graciously. Still, it festered. So I wrote her a letter explaining exactly how I felt about her railing and cursing at me and a few other moments. Maybe it's because she's British but she's very class conscious, so when I introduced her to the immigrant cleaner who is an angel in my life she brushed past her with a grunt.
Anyhow, she wrote back saying we just need "not to dwell" with more manipulative stuff, and I didn't budge. She said she spent a lot of money to come, blah blah. I replied I feel no guilt about what she chose to spend any more than she should feel about my expenditures to host her, get her list of groceries, treat her to meals (she took me out for a nice dinner) or drive her out to her favorite nostalgia places in the country. Because she bailed out of her promise to rent a car, I drove. Then she said she needed to visit a different friend next year and I said that was a good idea.
Later she apologized and after a couple of tries I told her I do love her but not her denial and minimizing. I'm letting it go, but am in no hurry to host her again if ever. The lecture on propriety combined with a nasty verbal attack was the last straw. Last visit it was her blowup over me not having a "normal" lifestyle, etc. I've fforgiven but not forgotten.
So there it is. I'm glad I stood up for myself. She's very sad about it now and I'm sad too. But not half as sad as I'd be if I didn't say anything.
Depending how it goes, I'll find out if I still have a close friend or if it all was an act. Either way I'll be okay. I hope she will be too because I do care about her. But when the T a year or so back said, "I think she takes too much," now I know what she meant.
Hugs
Hops
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Well.....
sounds like her stuff rubbed up against your stuff, Hops. Not personal.... feeling's aren't right and wrong. They just are.
And....it sounds like shame is behind Poet's outburst......and she's course, loud and unable to be a considerate guest..... So much for class consciousness.
That she didn't break down, apologize, then giggle with you about it, means......
she ain't over it. And maybe has zero sense of humor. Can't be sure, from here.
I do think it's mostly about her tho, Hops. That mean streak, of hers, would repel any thoughts of seeing her, face to face, anytime soon, unless she
got
real
honest and giggly about it. I've been on both sides of it, with female friends. Maybe come up with a secret code word for when the wheels start coming off. A "take a break" code word. I suggest pineapple, but you do you.
I'm glad the wine night went well. Sounds so nice!!!
Lighter
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Methinks too many people are carrying around some sort of "super-secret" (they think) life or death level intensity over their personal situations/problems - that they neither accept or try to resolve (Tupp called it on that one!). Instead of laying all those cards out on the table, airing them out, they try to stuff it even further deep down into a dark, dank well of yuck. Unfortunately, that breeds resentment that leads to hair-trigger emotional reactivity. I've been seeing this from some surprising people lately.
And I'm just not interested in being around that these days. Once someone starts accusing, blaming, making mountains out of molehills... they stop hearing. And aren't even saying anything communicative... just ranting until they run out of steam, and fall into "woe is me".
Better to have some space between you for awhile... time will help... and maybe take a step back from "close friendship" to being a bit more formal or removed? If it's meant to be close, it will be - but perhaps it isn't a constant state of things; maybe it will vary over the years.
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I know. You're both spot on. I don't understand the "honesty and giggly" part though, Lighter. I'd love some honesty from her but not more laughing things off.
But there'll be no tool or code word because I do not want to do the work for her.
Likely losing my closest friend for years is going to hurt, but I do not want to be around or try to manage her volatility, and be cursed out in my own home or even mocked unkindly for something physical I can't control (long story but hearing got damaged by a dentist's saw). I bent my head toward her while driving to indicate I didn't hear what she said (soft voice plus accent) so she yelled it AT me nastily. I've gotten a look at the mean streak, and I'm too damn tired as well as fragile to do battle.
I'm pretty close to done because in an emotional sense, she's unsafe. And I do not see any signs that she wants to be accountable for it. Or come out of her denial and tendency to act-and-distract her way out of finding insight. (Act meaning put on a mask and perform, not take action.)
If something new and encouraging happens I'd be thrilled for us both, but I think she's getting ready to let go of life, honestly. It's something she talks about every time she has to deal with any amount of being alone, and people willing to cater to her are quite few. She has a new support system of writer pals though, so maybe she's able to form new healthy friendships. I hope so.
I'm isolating again, just dealing with the aftermath. House is a wreck. I'm physically feeling quite weak. My evaluation of myself is pretty shaky right now.
hugs
Hops
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About the giggling ....maybe it's more fall down, weak at the knees laughter at each other and ouselves. Once the dysregulation passed.... it was good to have an honest chat about it......and we found so much humor in those moments of honesty.
Of course, we were laughing a lot, regularly, so it seemed inevitable we'd laugh at those moments of stress too.
Leave the house be and rest a while, ((Hops.))
Don't use "should."
Let your inner peace and gut lead....
down time?
processing (with writing?)
Find the pain in your body, put hands on it, name it, give it a number and breathe into it.
Get very curious about it.
I'd certainly be mourning losses...the friend I depended on, the visit I wanted to have, the awkward/angry space left between.
And.....her talking about letting go of life ....whew boy. Is she trauma bonding you to her?
Question: If you had it to do over....from the point she arrived .....would you do or say anything different?
I'm asking seriously.
Lighter
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Thanks, Lighter. I'm calming down. And really liked your question.
I think what happened was that I had unawarely decided to tell myself that the previous visit's rail-at-me session was a one-off. But I do think I was carrying a kind of wariness in my body I never had before. Still, we were happy the first half of the week. I have a guess that she didn't get enough attention at the party and had to watch me being hugged and happy for three hours.
I don't know how to do it better if I'd had the chance for a do-over. Confronting her is like arguing with a badger, I mean if whoops, please don't put damp towels here can set off an attack....I doubt I'm clever enough to say something EXACTLY right.
I think YOU were exactly right when you said shame probably triggered her. She is the Officer in Charge of Proper Social Protocol, so realizing she'd done something un-guestly didn't sit well. It's all ID, really, for me too. Lots of unconscious stuff. I forgive her for all that, but don't think she realizes how I react internally. I'm frozen in disbelief and hurt and literally do nothing except quietly leave the room. (That old "words will never hurt me" adage is horseshit, imo.)
Wan't until days later I wrote her the letter. On paper, I was firm and clear and both reported honestly how it felt and set a clear boundary. All with love, which I also made clear. So I don't regret it but just feel a big hole in my life for now. It'll heal.
And I hope she will. I'm just losing faith that she'll ever be able to. And missing my friend at the same time. For me, losing anybody I love is always traumatic. I can if I'm not careful go down the bunny hole of "I'm old with zero family and will be even more alone in older age." That's where my fears kick in.
Boy, I miss Tupp. And I am so angry with myself that I set her off. Feel as though I sent her away, when that's the last thing I'd have wanted. My social stupidity won.
You sayin' I shouldn't say should? LOL. I know what you mean. No self-shaming. As what's the point?
Thanks for the support and real thinking, Lighter. Light.
hugs
Hops
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Two things, Hops:
One
Limiting exposure can be a necessary and helpful thing.
If the Poet can only hold it together for 2 or 3 days....
THAT'S the limit visits should be, and it's ok to put concrete boundaries like that in place, IME. You don't have to explain it to others, or find agreement, IME, to put in place.
Second.......has Poet ever apologized for lashing out, belittling or otherwise behaving badly AT you? I think that's important to understand....for yourself.
Sometimes releasing something important and familiar is terrifying.....
It leaves a big empty (feeling) space....but also an open space,
for new things, people, habits, IME.
If one drops judgement..... it's just a space.... temporary? Leave room for not knowing.
Not knowing feels scary, IME.
Embracing not knowing, as a way of being....
feels less scary to me....to turn towards curiosity and possibility vs fear and rumination.
You didn't create, whatever drives Poet to her edge....and over it.....sounds like she's not able to share it. That's on her.
Breathe....Hops. All will be well
Lighter
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Realized I didn't answer your other question...
After Poet read my letter she wrote back that she was "very hurt by it" but did add "I'm sorry." Mixed in with how one of her four brothers is ill so her heart is heavy and she spent too much money to visit me but hoped she made me "happy a little bit" and she should visit a different friend next year and so forth.
I'm sure she's somewhat sorry but the apology felt so diluted by manipulation it didn't land as sincere. I guess I believe that if you're actually sorry, you FEEL sorry, and didn't see/feel that.
I replied that visiting someone else was probably a good idea and that I love her, just not her denials and minimizing. I feel she doesn't own it when she's lashed out and I hope she can sort out what it's about with her T.
Not a peep since then so I am guessing it's all over. If some kind of narcissism is at work, then discarding a person who confronts you about hurtful behavior is very common. In another email she said "I am at fault" and I choose to take that as a real effort to understand the impact.
Long story short, I left the ball in her court and told her I'd be happy to reconnect when/if she feels ready.
In other news, I got Pup to a 7am appointment this morning and it didn't kill me.
:)
hugs and thanks for caring,
Hops
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Whew boy....7am is early, Hops! Well done.
I don't know what to make of Poet's responses, Hops. She sounds conflicted. Her future actions will clarify, no doubt.
People are messy. One draws clear boundaries, and refiles people in the heart, accordingly, IME.
Lighter
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I wrote Poet a nice short note asking her how her latest reading went and telling the story of my nearly-nose-to-nose meet with the snake.
She took a week to reply and when she did, it was short and all about how recognized she is now as a local poet. It was empty of feeling or connection so I feel sadder. I shouldn't have reached out; made me feel pathetic.
In my reply I congratulated her on the attention she is getting from giving readings. Also said I hope we'll go deeper to share what makes us tick or tock as we have had each others' backs for years, and sent her love from Pup. (I'm the needy one.)
I was just thinking, about friendships in general, why it rocks my world like an earthquake when I feel I've lost a friend. I felt that way here when Tupp left. And now the only "best friend" (stupid concept) I've had almost in my whole life is turning her back. So, what I'm doing is paying more attention to the friends right in front of my nose. Or potential friends. I've got a visit today with a couple from the Village board, pretty fascinating folks. He was a director of the BLM and earlier the Isaac Walton League -- brilliant fellow -- and she is a retired college teacher with a raspy sense of humor I really enjoy.
Once I get my house tidied up (or, climb Mount Everest) I'll have her over too. We've met once or twice and really hit it off.
Life is what it is, ain't it.
hugs,
Hops
PS I figure the evolution I need to aim for is gratitude, that no matter the painful parts of life, there is always love in the world. Putting out more of it brings more in. On average, anyway!
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Gratitude: had a great visit and wonderful convo this afternoon with the former-professor woman; hubs came home as I was leaving so got to chitchat w/him too.
It was a wonderful talk. Nothing superficial, lots of sharing about everything from wealth (she feels guilt) to relationships to real estate (they're selling their 400-acre place west of DC) to her family and on and on. Even Nism, since she told me her own mother stories. And she's got edgy humor I really relate to, plus same politics.
She might become a real friend. And that's a nicely timed gift from the universe.
hugs
Hops
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I hope this connection brings light to your social life, Hops.
I'm running like mad to get on the road, but will come back tomorrow.😘
Lighter
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Thanks, Lighter.
hugs
Hops
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Hi, Hops:
I wanted to put my thoughts, about your messages to Poet, here.... they're just my gut feelings. Not right, or on target, mind you.
You extended your little monkey paw, for connection and healing....bc you're whole enough and healed enough to do so.
The Poet sniffed your paw, and whatever is ticking and tocking within her ....shame, mostly, I think .....turned her away, and bragged about herself instead.
You see it. We see it. She can't see it. She can't see the peace, healing and serenity beyond available through accepting responsibility for her actions and connecting with you to figure it out.
It feels like she holds some higher ground, in her mind. As though must be right, so you must be wrong, the apologizer, the one letting her off hooks, to stomp boundaries and be the only one with feelings she cares about.....and that might be true. Might not.
I used to wonder about people who believe taking any responsibility will destroy them....how terrible it must be to live under that heavy wall, unable to accept a piece of their shame, bc there's years and years and years of it, piled on, ready to crush them, should they let their guard down.
It's a lot, but I also believe they, on some level, might understand it won't actually kill them. Some part of them would rather keep working to hold up the wall, rather than stand naked and vulnerable,in the messy rubble, falling all around them.
Those darn coping strategies
::shaking head::.
And you wouldn't shove her nose in it...shame her....proclaim a win. You'd listen and support.....I know you would.
Maybe she knows too, on some level, and that scenario so misaligns with her self image, as you've described, she can't reconcile...
can't believe peaceful juice is worth the squeeze.
And the squeeze, for those unfamiliar with surrendering.....those unfamiliar and fearful of what comes next....find holding up the wall less stressful, maybe. So they hold, refuse their monkey paw and live in the emotional turmoil they've created....piling it higher....more overwhelming.
After family visit, we joke about interactions feeling like monkeys tending to each other, being alarmed together or at odds...so sorry for the references.....but they seem to fit, imo. Insert little monkey ooo ooooos, and you have the full picture.
Your Poet doesn't have the ability to honestly self reflect.....at least, not yet, and that's ok. You're still ok. You're considering responses, reaching out, willing to gently connect. That's a gift Poet might not be able the receive.
Is it co-dependent when we need something, from someone, who just can't give it? Is it co-dependent to miss the signs, this will never happen.....miss the important exit for acceptance? To change paths ...maybe not give up, but travel a parallel paths, rather than the same path? Just....honor oneself more.....and see if dynamics change.
I do want you to know, there's no shame in how you're feeling. Labeling yourself "needy" hurt me, to read it.
You're human, have old wounds and what feels like a huge loss will ping and echo down childhood corridors, of course it will.
The word codependent-ish pops up....as it does for myself recently, and I think it's OK if we're authentic.....speak our truth and gently state boundaries.....hold them......back ourselves up, rather than betray ourselves, kwim?
I feel you were all of the above. The ball is in Poet's court. She'll rise and engage, respectfully, or she'll bounce back into your life, sans any insights......and forge on, expecting you to play the role her image has prescribed you.
I've done it, but there have to be limits......one must stop sacrificing to the point of betraying self, IME.
Truthfully, the Poet is the needy one....she neeeeeeeds you to play your supporting role in her.....
her......
manufactured self image? The part she plays isn't an authentic whole being, aware and self reflecting, imo.
I'll stop at the point I'm guessing what age she might be operating at, bc truthfully, I have no idea about any of it. Just expressing how it's feeling, to me, based on my experiences.
You have options.....how do you feel about them today, ((Hops?))
Lighter
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I'm feeling SO much better the last couple days, and it was the first time I realized her chilly-shoulder response actually helped me step back more, a safer distance behind my own boundary.
I can't swear cause and effect, but I slept well two nights running and had unexpected energy during the day that I used to tidy up a lot. I also walked a bit and met friends. Suddenly out of my cave and hungry for simple peace and simple pleasure.
Could be there is a connection to releasing my grief-scraps over Poet and just watching her sail her own boat. Now I feel zero inclination to try to persuade or help her navigate, and all my anger, feeble as it was, has dissipated. I even feel liberated from a weight I hadn't realized I was carrying, and that was too heavy to keep lugging around. I'll see her in the monthly poetry workshop and that's fine. I always respond with authentic feedback (we each do) which she's seemed to appreciate, and I won't be sulking. She'll look for purpose in her poetry-publicity efforts and I'm glad for her. Anything's better than the dark, sodden despair she's often been stuck in. I can hold compassion and space for her, but from a less co-D perspective I hope.
Your thoughtful, realistic-but-positive analyses have really helped too. Thank you so much. Particularly, every time you talked about seeing shame in her, I recognized it even more and see the truth of it. It's so sad to see someone so unhappy when you know there are ways through. But only we can clear our own paths. Everybody's personal jungle is different. I can only wish her well. Thank you.
hugs,
Hops
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I was thinking ......
the concept of limiting exposure, to certain people,in order to maximize joy, and limit chaos, is a valid one.
The Poet's chaos is within herself, imo.
She carries it within her ...... it's perhaps rubbing up against your stuff, but it's still hers to own,and feel responsible for, imo.
I'm curious.....as you moved through the Poet's visit.....did you auto-assume or feel responsible for her dysregulation....
OR
was Poet blaming you, sans your buy in?
The blame only works IF we buy into it, at least a little, on some level, IME.
If we're clear on the facts..... there's no pain/confusion/shame/feeling we can/should fix something, during the chaos, IME.
It's nice to read you've created emotional distance. That's where perspective and choice come into focus, IME.🪷
Lighter
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She was blaming me for something that did not happen (me being a "bad host") w/o my buy in. On the other hand, no state of mind (even blamelessness) is 100% pure, so she tried to poke me in my own shame store. (Vulnerability about the house.)
But it didn't go deep. Her verbal attack was so unfair, irrational and just plain MEAN that I felt shielded by my own refusal to buy in. Still do.
Off to visit pre-conception friend with the recovering dog we both adore, and friend and I will sit outside and watch them run each other ragged. Peaceful evening coming up!
Pup got into a nest of baby bunnies (rabbit mama didn't learn the lesson last year and made it in the same crowded perennial bed) again, and their helplessness made me sad and upset. Chased Pup off the patio and gated him out, hoping Mama bunny will get back to them. But the nights are chilly now.
He really is a terrier. Sigh.
I'm bingeing Band of Brothers as my Memorial Day contemplation. Had never seen it and think it was so well done.
hugs
Hops
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So...you prescient ones. How do you read this? She wrote that her partner (the jerk) is away for three weeks, and it's triggered everything about abandonment. I realize it's hard for her. But I really could use your perspective on how this lands:
Hope all's well with you and [Pup]. You have him, the sweetie!
I'm just hoping I don't get too depressed but I feel it coming on unless I pull myself out of it. It'll be a test of my ability to handle life alone in the house. That little abandoned child without friends or people around her. ..The monster of the empty sky, the silence. And my friendship with you, not feeling the same either.
Hell or death is being cut off emotionally or physically from all.
I tried to respond kindly but without too much detail, "you're sitting with some very tough feelings," kind of thing. Then suggested a small sweet older dog might be a warm companion. That was about it, but as you've pointed out, it's a pattern, and I'd like to stabilize my part of it. Or be sure I'm going in the right direction.
I think I am. Just looking for support I think.
I had a lovely time today at a picnic with lots of good folks I haven't seen in a while.
hugs
Hops
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Interesting she mentioned the relationship between you "not feeling the same either."
She's, imo, inching towards her cliff, fearful of falling....reaching out to you, hopeful you'll rescue/react/comfort her, as per usual.
And she understands....she rebuffed you, when you reached out, uncertain, in pain, trying to connect. She's skirting it.....
I guess she tossed in....
"that little abandoned child, without friends or people around her...."
to activate your compassion. I'd say she's weaponizing it, but I don't really know.
If it was me..... I'd resist the pattern to rush in and save her. I think that's your plan.
I'd get very curious about how much compassion she extends, or not.
How she reacts to your changing up responses to her request for comfort, and reassurance. Punishment, cruelty or dysregulation speaks to trauma bonding, IME.
Observe. Ask questions. Honestly assess, and accept what you find.
AAA....assess, accept, act.
She'll always be there, on her terms, so no need to fear, she'll disappear, if you decide you want to preserve this connection, no matter what.
You decide if thinge can shift, some, and what you're willing to make do with.....to hang on to the connection.
Her distress will be the best chance of focusing her attention and discussing what's real......I think. Otherwise, she bats discomfort away with a dismissive assignment of blame.....and you're always going to be the flawed one, imo.
I'm curious if she can peek at her actions....if she can accept she's been hurtful and dysregulated......
or not.
Her message seems to be an invitation, to return to old patterns, I think. You're welcome to tend to her......but on her terms.
What about your terms? Reciprocity? You deserve kindness.....honesty.....to be on your own side, as priority, most of all.
What does that look like, in this friendship? What do you want it to look like?
Lighter
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Yep. Yep. Yep.
I'm SO much less stressed since I let it all blow through. I went from acute fear of loss (thanks, Nmom) to feeling lighter, happier and more optimistic. In just days.
Poet's cries of anguish are always extreme ("hell and death") and very dark. I don't doubt at all that this is truly how she feels. Tragically. The change is that I no longer feel agonized that I am not able to heal her agony. I accept fully that I can't fix her. Don't even want to try, now. I am a slow learner, but once I get it, it'll remain clear if I don't remain mindful of all these lessons.
I told her if she'd like to call or Zoom, I can listen and still care. It's true. I'm just not going to drain myself with any more urgent efforts to get her to see herself. (It's "Gosh, what do you think you're going to do?" time.) Maybe her experiences have been so agonizing that she can never heal herself, or she's still charming/disarming her T. Or her fear of facing awful memories (shame triggers) is so extreme that she avoids/deflects/lashes out, whatever. For that, I have compassion, but I am on guard against re-enmeshment. I am not available as a punching bag.
Her random rage or shame-spurt helped me back way off and look. As have you, Lighter. And Amber too.
I did think one image she wrote was poetic and powerful: "...the monster of the empty sky" -- it must be an awful way to feel. I've never known anyone with such terror of their own company. And it's very sad. But not mine to fix.
I hope she gets a dog.
hugs and thanks,
Hops
PS--Appreciate you bringing up reciprocity, especially when it comes to kindness and honesty. I DO want that in order to co-create a healthy friendship. With Poet, and one other old friend (the Hollywood-adjacent one) the kindness is usually there, but not the honesty. So, I'm more detached from both, and enjoying theh prospect of finding new friends. I don't want to plunge back into my old codependent stuff, and intend to work more consistently to NOTICE when it starts to kick up.
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Oh, bother.....it really does boil down to co-dependent brain ruts, doesn't it?
My brain wanted to complicate it....see it different ways, add and subtract, but it's just old ruts....and climbing out, me'thinks.
You're out.....well done, ((Hops.))
New pathways built stronger, yup yup yup.
Lighter
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She is dwelling in terror, because he's not in the house. She wrote again, veering from what-will-I-do-when-he-dies to maybe-a-dog to saw-my-D (but she had pain so I felt irrelevant), etc. I've noticed before that when someone is ill or hurting around her she gets impatient, even irritated. It's odd.
We might zoom tomorrow. I don't feel much about it except the sense that for me, things are and will be different. I'm going to be kind but not solicitous. Gentle and not attached to an outcome. Present and calm. Open but not vulnerable.
It's sinking in that I didn't realize just how unstable she feels, and sometimes acts. I think she's heading for or in crisis, and I don't want to dedicate myself to being the main answer. She does have friends there and a good T she trusts, so I hope she'll also turn to them.
hugs
Hops
PS--Ugh. Right after I wrote the above I had one chest pain, tachycardia and broke into a sweat. Combined, those can be heart attack if it doesn't stop in five minutes, but I think it's settling down. They are also combined with some panic attacks. So I don't know which it is/was, but don't feel like heading for the ER. If it recurs I will though.
What might be true is all this thinking about Poet's darkness and chaos is scary for me. I don't want to join her and I wish I didn't feel this way about the Zoom.
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It might be handy to have a tech glitch around the time of the zoom, Hops. Yeah, it's dishonest. BUT if it's causing this level of anxiety/stress reaction - honor YOUR NEEDS first. Better a white lie, than a trip to the ER.
Now, about poet-friends N-spot(s)... what Lighter has written is insightfully (probably) true. YOU are to be THERE FOR HER... to meet her needs... but when you express a need for connection (with boundaries)... she nosedives. And catastrophizes. Dramatizing her emotional situation as bait to reel you back in. You sense this, don't you? I'm pretty sure you do. Even commiserating, her needs are more important than yours.
She has plenty of resources to help her, if she's heading into a crisis. She can even call her maligned husband; just because he's away doesn't mean he's dead yet. I think I'll prescribe for you a message: "I'm so sorry you're going through this. It must suck. What are you going to do about it?"
A significant chunk of "fear of being alone" is based on not trusting oneself... which starts with accepting your weak spots/coping mechanisms/self-sabotage. Yep; that requires dealing with any shame that exists too, as well as taking accountability for the self-created Hell... AND DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT. A lot of the time, this fear is based on what someone's imagination creates and NOT on reality. But a person doesn't ever know that until they walk that.
Maybe she needs help doing that; that's what her T is for. You, aren't her T. Not your job to help her "see the light". You aren't responsible for how she got this way either. So you shouldn't shoulder the burden of consoling her, keeping her company, or showing her the path that's hers alone to walk. (Fact is: you can't truly know HER path... just see common elements that we all deal with.)
Yeah, my compassion well is on the dry side these days. So many people have been sipping at it. Being an introvert at nature... I minimize my contact with those who are "needy" and spend time meeting my own needs as best I can. I get quiet; don't interact; focus on my own transient or lingering feelings. Crawl into the turtle shell until I have more energy for that kind of interacting again. It certainly feels good to me. Other people can take a number and exceptions will be made for people who reciprocate.
It's important not to just focus on the inward universe on this topic; but also look at what you're DOING in the outward one... it's kinda amazing what you might stumble across in the process.
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Whew boy, creating, and cultivating the ability to NOT fall/get dragged into other people's reactive rabbit holes is a thing, IME.
Whether you take that Zoom, or not, you have the chance to rise up, rest in non judgemental awareness, and be more responsive/able to respond to the Poet/those suffering around you, IME.
Oh, to auto-remain calm/feel safe/not get thrown into survival mode.
I agree with, Amber, btw. Self care should always lead. You can care about Poet in the way you need to. You don't have to care in the way she needs......or the ways you have in the past.
Asking Poet what SHE intends the do about her distress is such a great way to shift the narrative, and get out from under feeling responsible. Good reminder, Amber.
Allowing the Poet to share her personal load hasn't helped her evolve, IME.
If your "help" allows Poet to remain mired.... it's not help, IME. It's a well intended form of enabling.....joining her, there, in her darkness.
Time to recalibrate, as you have been doing. Time to cross your arms, comfort yourself with gentle shoulder pats, and breathe.
Retain emotional distance.....see her, below, in her suffering, and know....you offer less if you join her in that darkness, IME.
I sure hope you stop having physical symptoms, Hops.
Lighter
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Feeling much better. I love my doc; she and I did a telehealth talk about various stuff and she is SO good. Thorough, understanding, meticulous. She hears me about all sorts of things and gives strong advice gently.
Poet called. I had emailed her a long explanation about me being in charge of my own codependent leanings, and how if I see her waving from a tar pit again with just one nostril showing, I'm going to back away from the edge of empathy and take care of myself. She approved wholeheartedly and didn't want to cause angst.
She was apologetic about her dark messages ("nihilistic melancholy" I called them) effect on me, and seemed to understand completely. So that was good and my job is to tend my side of the fence.
Good fences make good neighbors.
hugs
Hops
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Well done!
I'm glad she's starting to own her impacts on you, too. There is probably a way forward now, where it was hard to see one initially.
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I feel I was carrying HER backpack of what you called stinky muck or something similar.
The real lesson is once again, that's on me. She's Nistic, insecure, alla that. But mostly I think it's just the usual oblivion of the self absorbed. So odd for a good poet to be that way, imo. But in terms of her life experience, it's probably very subconsciously appropriate. I noticed way back she rarely writes in the first person.
Usually when I get close in a connection, I do nearly anything to avoid confronting, showing real anger or fedupness. The pattern seems to be I forgive nearly anything until someone crosses a certain line, and then [click] I'm ready to leave.
Really and fully on my own side.
With M, it was the slow realization that he was blowing smoke, troooly an overt N, and toying with my vulnerabilities. With Hollywood friend, that she either could not or would not listen, and tried to control me in ways I couldn't handle any more. It was so one way, and is less so now since I backed off a lot and expect nothing. With Poet, feeling that I was becoming where she dumped the compost.
Sometimes it's very hard to be alone. But it's worse to be unheard or disrespected in any relationship. Easier not to have one, or have a few shallower ones if need be.
And the real lesson is that I need to discern who people are much much sooner. To pay more attention to small early signals. To not throw my heart over the bar so soon. To require reciprocity and if it's not forthcoming, to back away. I've had too many one-sided attachments in my life and none have been ultimately good for me.
hugs and much gratitude,
Hops
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I'm glad you're feeling better, Hops.
Light
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I think we're all trying to learn how to see these people sooner, Hops. It's kinda programmed into us to give the benefit of the doubt and second chances. But that conditioning didn't include the criteria for giving that to people while getting little to nothing in return.
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Exactly, Amber. You are so sane, and that inspires me.
I think some of it is that I have been a broken person (it's a FT project and I accept that) who is/was drawn to other broken people. Sometimes, I think broken or formerly-broken people can and do heal each other in ways. Hell, we all try to do that here.
But there needs to be steady respect for another's broken bits. They can be jagged.
Lately, I withdraw faster when I feel octopus tentacles coming my way. That's with new people, mainly. With long-established relationships, the attachment is stronger.
But, this bout with Poet taught me I have better boundaries than I used to. I just will not be the target of nasty temper outbursts, and if anyone's going to take my gentleness as weakness, well I'm stronger than I knew.
Thanks in very large part to y'all here. My gratitude is boundless, truly.
hugs
Hops
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Complete this sentence: even broken people........
- can fix themselves (mostly)
- still have broken bits that surface under stress or emotional pain
- are doing the best they can, within their capabilities (which vary a LOT)
Your turn! <grin>
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- can become Kintsugi
Love your list, Amber!
I feel clear that the friendship crisis is past, now. But still feeling the aftermath, mostly some increased anxiety in general. And just the effects of shock. I realized that I didn't know a toxic part of her, and her explosion shook me to the core. If a "best friend" can do that, or felt entitled to in order to relieve her own discomfort, who is safe?
hugs
Hops
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How're you feeling today, Hops?
Lighter
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Thanks, Lighter, sorry for the delay.
I feel much better, not anxious about it any more, just letting a new reality settle in.
I'm just stunned at how ready (eager?) I was to believe this was genuine loving friendship. And, in ways, it has been. Her simmering rage was out of my sight, imo.
I just don't know where that decision comes, that accepting or not pushing back against abuse is a good thing. This is what she's done to herself, and I can now see that the justified rage anyone could feel about having been abused as a child, beaten by a husband, date-raped, etc etc -- could erupt in moments of shame-trigger or fatigue. That's what I think has happened to Poet. I don't judge or blame her for being too afraid to examine/heal it, though I profoundly wish she'd try.
I feel I understand it. The reality that remains for me is that unguarded, wide-open trust is no longer appropriate in this relationship. So sadly, that's changed forever. But I can accept it and still love her, and communicate with more formal (as Amber mentioned) and also lighter exchanges. It'll be good to have a year off from visits now. Or two.
I think the being-alone crucible she's going through right now could be transformative if she lets it. I wish she could find some peace. She reports nonstop plans to see people so she isn't fully alone. I get that too though I can't do it myself.
But to your question: I feel okay. Rebalanced. Thanks much for ALL the support and insight.
hugs
Hops
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It makes me sad.....
to notice things board members have accepted, as love, or parts of love, wrestling with it, like some live thing, when really..... it's just malformed......beliefs.....about love/earning love, and worthiness. Esp when it involves parents.
I guess the, often very toxic people, board members struggle with, are in the middle of their own struggles, involving childhood trauma.
Some people do more, or less, harm in the world. Some people (perpetrate?) more or less kindness/help in the world, but it comes down to neeeeeed, doesn't it? Needing things to be different.......
Choosing people, broken in familiar ways, so one can change past outcomes, in the present. That's what happens, right?
Poet's abusive husband reminds her of a childhood trauma, she's trying to change, in the present....right? Your relationship, with Poet, is/was about trying to change/heal relationships/trauma in your past....right?
That's pretty complicated, if one needs to go back, find the origin trauma, and heal it, rather than refile one person, and decide they'll simply install boundaries, practice and enforce them. Difficult to do, and not repeat..... if the struggle is about past yearning to fix old trauma overlayed onto present relationships......right?
It was niggling thing, for me, to notice what past small transgressions, I had allowed years and years ago....bc they lead to larger transgressions.
Some I let slide, some I didn't, but my blindness......my ability to ignore, shut out, explain away..... honestly not feel bothered by, in some astonishing cases....or......
accept, in other astonishing cases.....
that was all mine to discern and own.
Once we know better, we can do better.
There's 5 trucks, including 2 dump trucks, and various equipment he hauling flatbeds, on my street....I think working at the cowboy's house.
::calculating cash on hand::.
Maybe I can get some stuff done too!
I'm glad you're feeling less anxious,((Hops.)) Will likely come and go, ebb and flow, until something clicks.....heals that needful part, IME. Then, will feel like an old key,burning in an ancient lock. Calm and done ness.....zero desire to think about it for another minute, I think.
Lighter
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I think the reason I for now choose to "still love her" (unless she acts out unsafely again) and to try to "understand" her aren't really self-abnegation, but the core remnants of my religious upbringing. I'm not abandoning myself for codependency, though I'll observe and resist it in ways that make sense to me.
I didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater when I let go of a traditional faith, but kept the single core idea, which is enough for me. Super simple. Golden Rule. For me, after years of confusion and angst, I worked out that faith simply means "experience trust." Not foolish naive blind stupid trust, but a general trust in possibility. Not expecting it, but always allowing for it. I'm home in agnosticism, which is for me optimistic. Not worried about it; it's probably just Universe.
hugs
Hops
PS I learned a lot from all this. Not obsessing, not even regretting. Well, we all regret pain. But this was an obvious and helpful lesson. What stays with me is the fact that I stood up, pushed back and refused ill treatment. With clarity in the moment, not just afterward. All those things are good for me, not wasted.
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Wouldn't it be amazing to feel zero emotional dump when, those we love, lash out, attack and struggle?
I'm picturing calm and wise Bran Stark's character, from Game of Thrones.
Lighter
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Probably not realistic for me to expect to have zero dump when someone I'm close to lashes out. That'd be a robot. But I am learning to process more quickly and be on my own side.
I've been feeling some sad-spurts at her silence but also, que sera, sera. I understand she can't/won't deal with it by connecting sincerely, so I'd rather be at peace without the playacting. In her few recent emails she keeps instructing me: "keep caring about me" but also drops the thread of reciprocity and I believe, doesn't think that perhaps I need support and caring too.
It'll be weird to see her at the poetry workshop next week.
All in all, though, all is well.
hugs
Hops
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I don't know, Hops.
One wouldn't have to be a robot, necessarily, while sitting in emotional awareness, sans reactivity.
It might just be observation, sans fear, guilt, or shame.....I think.
Not sure, but, for me, dependence on a relationship seems to be a jumping off point for fear, IME. Once I shift out of need, into wanting...... everything flips.
Same with needing to be seen a certain way, or not needing.
I understand everyone has important things, about who they are in the world......
if I neeeeeed others to see me that way
vs
understand they're free to hold whatever opinions they like...... I'm still me. I'll be ok, no matter what they think AND if they're insisting something contrary, to my truth, is real........
there's a motive. Something about me and my stuff is rubbing up against their stuff, and I don't have to fix it, change it or otherwise alter their belief.
Lately, when I drop the rope, they do a huge change and drop into normal behavior patterns.
Maybe, I'm saying you don't have to be anything, with the Poet, but authentically yourself.
It's the neeeeding Poet to SEE your truth..... that's creating upset....maybe?
I dropped the rope, with my Army Ranger friend today. I've done it several times in the last month. I remain u bothered, and he figures stuff out, or not. I'm always shocked when he figures stuff out, but the more I drop the rope, the more he comes'round to rational conclusions BUT only when I can release expectations.....so it seems.
You can extend compassion to your Poet friend.
She can remain your friend.
What she may not be able to do is extend reciprocity and the kind of vulnerability required for big growth.
If you accept her, as she is, then she's just a friend with limits and flaws your mindfully willing/unwilling to spend time with.
It's unrealistic expectations giving us the vapors, IME. Rarely is it someone's repeated bad treatment of us.
What we allow, and don't allow, is up to us. Not them, IME.
Telling the Poet you require some reciprocity.....is an option. Requesting and requiring a bare minimum of decent behavior is an option.
Enforcing boundaries, you've set, with immediate delivery of stated consequences is an option.
Allowing her to remain willfully ignorant, while ignoring your stated needs, is an option.
I wonder, if she'd feel ok, with your being treated, like she treats you, by someone else?
I bet she'd say you deserve better......UF she's not mired in shame and defense mechanisms.
The question is.....
do you need her to be anything, other than what she is, now?
I'm trying to internalize this, Hops......not telling you what to do, or believe. Just sharing my lessons.
Lighter
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VERY wise lessons, Lighter.
Thank you.
You're right. Pining for reciprocal care and interest may not be rational. I'm letttttingggg go of fantasy. Dropping the rope.
I'll ponder stating some needs. Maybe. If she shows openness, wants to Zoom again, then I'd see an opportunity to state what I need/prefer (big diff) in a healing friendship. If she avoids....I'll let her do so. She's in charge of what she CAN do, and vice versa.
That helped. All of it.
thanks again,
Hops
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We tell ourselves stories about other people, our connections, and ourselves, IME.
Dropping the stories, frees one to see what's really there, weigh it up, and decide if we're still interested, IME.
Back to radical acceptance, I guess, sans any story telling, or wishing things were different.....I think.
And....
It's the stories, we tell ourselves....the stories running in the background..... the unconscious stories creating the energetic charges? I think?
The journey continues.
Lighter
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Well. Maybe reciprocity is more fluid than we think. And may not be there - even if we express a need for something specific - at the time we state it. Maybe the other is going through a time when their bandwidth shrinks... and they simply don't have anything to give. THEN.
Like we're on completely different timelines in other universes... and while sometimes they run together; the synchronicity factor... sometimes they just don't. For whatever reason.
I think you can hang on to your own feelings... and let hers do her. But of course, you also get to choose how you spend your time.
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True about stories (my head IS a story), and especially radical acceptance, Lighter.
And Amber, you're illustrating radical acceptance too, with or w/o synchronicity.
The little spurts of resistance I've felt about this friendship are fading. What's the point. She'll do what she can or wants to do, and otherwise not. Same for me.
How do I manage to make pretty simple things so complex? Well, I'm less haunted about it today. Though I'm crabby in the heat.
hugs
Hops
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The simple things are made complex, IME, when we resist acceptance.
Acceptance, has been a magic potion, in my life. Still, I resist.....but it's getting easier.
Lighter
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I Zoomed with Poet today for an hour.
She spent the first half avoiding eye contact.
Said that the bad temper is part of who she is.
She is tired of feeling guilty and already apologized.
I told her I forgive, and had accepted her first apology.
I've just struggled to process it and know whether/how to continue.
She talked about her time alone and how she cleaned up the house. Kept busy. She's making new friends. Some are very sympathetic.
Said my house feels chaotic (the clutter) and that made her feel unwelcome.
I wish if it'd bothered her that much, she'd switched to an earlier flight. Didn't say so.
Anyway, it feels pretty "over" to me and I'm okay with that.
hugs
Hops
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You know, Hops.....
lately I've been curious about all the things I didn't say, but maybe should have. Certainly, could have.
That's more interesting, to me, than Poet continuing to avoid responsibility, and gaslighting you, bc she
just
can't
be
a
better
person.
She can have her little meltdowns with her new friends.
Fine.
I'm sure they'll find her marital struggles fascinating, along with her lopsided "take it or leave it," lack of reciprocity in relationship.
Sorry she can't do better.
You certainly deserve better
Lighter
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Thanks, Lighter.
I wrote and thanked her for Zooming and told her it was good that we talked. Possibly a mistake, but I can change my mind any time I need to redraw things.
She responded warmly but superficially and I accept that is the best she can do. But boy did this series of stuff with her re-warn me that Co-D still lurks and can spring at me like a steel trap if I'm not more vigilant about my internal state.
I'll never be as fluent as you are in tracking my inner processes, but I sure could do better.
I know a lot of it was me feeling lonely myself, sometimes acutely. But my people-stuff is mostly positive. A few durable friendlies, and especially the volunteering with the elders (talk about perspective!). I'd say on average I see another human once or twice a week, max. Often fleetingly. But I do have a couple germinating friendships I'm glad about. My peer group is getting old along with me, one way or another. I just can't keep up with most of them, resources-wise. Simple R Me.
I have such cravings for deep and challenging conversation that I have to remind myself: a brew on the patio or some nearby spot with outdoor tables is plenty. Most of my pals are not writers or artists or intellectuals and I can miss that. One new friend though is all of these. Going to visit her again next week.
hugs
Hops
hugs
Hops
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Hey, you can keep Poet for regular chats, but now you know.....
she doesn't do/can't do/won't do reciprocal relationships. Doesn't matter why, imo.
With realistic expectations in place.....speak to her as often as you like, or not at all. Up to you, dear.
I'm hopeful, new writer friend, leads to more writer friends, and fellowship.
Lighter
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You're right, that's all so true. Thanks for the perpetual insight, Lighter.
She just wants a sounding board for the performance persona she's developed over many many years in order to cope. I get it. The eruptions are when, when challenged, her woundedness comes out. I don't need to fix it.
I just am not attaching as much to it any more.
hugs
Hops
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Acceptance is a deeply healing/freeing balm, IME. Sometimes more, or less, difficult to make peace with.
I suspect I just made it over a difficult hump, myself. Will see, soon enough.
Lighter
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Happy Hot Sunday Hops... <smile>
Maybe we'll get another afternoon thunderstorm.
How're you keeping in this heatwave? Finding enough to keep you busy? to eat? to watch on the mind-control devices? (puter, tv, etc)
The generous rain this year, means that everything is lush green (mowing for Hol), I don't have to water gardens (but the weeds are threatening a take-over), and this year I have a HUGE crop of mullein coming up everywhere. I dried some for tea and am sending to a few takers on one of my forums - fair number of herb-curious folks there. I had to harvest in the early morning - but even at 9:30 am it was unbearable.
Hol's landscaper friend is coming out this week to help on some postponed/delayed projects. He's bringing his 6 yr old boy... so we'll see how I do. I don't have a lot of patience for some kinds of kids. Thinking about making ham salad, or at least that's the planned experiment - I was warned the young'en is a real picky eater at this stage. And it's too hot to cook. I still a few kid-friendly yard games (since all my grands are teenagers) but it sounds like he's never experienced the great outdoors in free-range style. You know, looking at bugs, checking out streams & ponds... running forever free in open spaces until dark and then watching the lightning bugs or actual lightning.
Maybe Hol will want to entertain him some too. She has a stock tank she uses for cooling off & floaties. Kids do like her a bunch too. We'll see. B & I are real comfortable with the Dad but some of the things I hear about what's happened to this kid while at his Mom's sound waaaaaay too familiar; in a bad way. Mom has a new BF and neither of them act much like parents. I bought him a supersoft teddy bear to tell all his secrets to last Christmas.
Lots more circus going on here but I got get to get moving a little to finish up some odds and ends before they get here. I hope you're finding a comfy balance of quiet time & fun! this summer.
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Your circus sounds primarily cheerful and most of all FUN, Amber.
Hope the little guy behaves well and is nice to be around. Do update!
I'm doing pretty well. Just avoided a bump in the road (metaphorical) that would've derailed me...almost contacted my D because she's been on my mind a lot. Then I reviewed some of her last diatribe emails in which she said I never take any responsibility for anything and I'm responsible for most of what's gone wrong for her, etc etc etc and how she realized "right away" in family counseling that I wouldn't accept responsibility. (She quit after two appointments with two different counselors....ummm....I certainly was present and ready to do or accept ANYTHING to heal our relationship.) Anyhow, all that was triggered by a Hax column about an adult child addict and it hit me how many of D's delusions and denials and pure projections remind me of what that family was going through. She's not an addict, but behaviorally, there's a lot of overlap. I'm desperately sorry for her but that's trumped by knowing I can't trust her or set myself up to be newly vulnerable to her. If she ever accepts my offer of online counseling with the person she chooses, I'd definitely do that. But right now I don't know if she even has shelter or a computer.
Managed to back out of the trail and delete a foolish draft. Whew. I still worry about her, but the way one would about a pet Komodo.
Otherwise, some practical problems: central AC broke. The system's fan burned out so the distorted bearings screeched and so in the middle of all this heat, Pup and I just lie around panting. It's been very uncomfortable despite fans and I sleep (ish) soaked in sweat. We're waiting for the fan-motor vendor to send a quote. The local company that maintains my system would like to sell me a new system. Makes sense, if you have thousands and can afford it, which right now, I can't. Fan first.
Just cancelled a repair to half my kitchen floor from that broken pipe that went undetected. I'm going to buy some colorful rubber puzzle-piece mats to fill in.
Otherwise, with friends, things are going well. Another Zoom with Poet went okay, nothing new or surprising, so I just was supportive and she was cheerful. I didn't dread it and felt a startling boredom listening. So that's where that is. Not worrying.
Met a new friend through the Village pres. yesterday. Quite nice, English, a writer. Eager to make friends so I'm stepping up. (The pres. is her close friend but about to be gone for a month so she was eager to make a connection for her just-moved-here friend.)
Another friend I haven't seen in a while, I'll be visiting tomorrow afternoon. English friend next door is suffering, having a hip replaced next month. And I'm volunteering weekly...next week is a woman who needs help decluttering. I think it's a perfect service to do and maybe I can bring home some of her motivation. She lives in a neighborhood quite close to where my parents did. Their house is so glamorous now, but I feel no nostalgia.
All in all, I'm feeling generally peaceful and forcing myself out of isolation. Most days I don't see anyone, but I do try to put things on the calendar more consistently.
Thanks for checking in, lady. I hope your summer will cool a bit and you can still enjoy your land and your projects. One fun thing: a neighbor came by to ask if she could take blooms from my huge pink crepe myrtle out front and make bouquets that are being sold for a counseling charity at a women's arm-wrestling event. I sicced her on my tree-sized hydrangea, too and she was very happy.
Hope you are too and that things are going better for B.
hugs
Hops
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Oh man, I hate to hear your AC has gone out! You must long for a kiddie pool filled with ice cubes! Can you hang a wet (stick in the freezer) towel in front of the fan? That might help. You're better off trying to fix the existing AC fan than replacing it right now. The older units are more mechanical & less digital - so less ways for it to stop working. (Lots less $$$$$ too.)
I'm sorry your D is still incommuncado. I know that must be a chasm of hurt. Even if you've gotten used to dealing with it. My short face to face with Amy was pleasant enough; I did have to overlook the same foibles I was hoping she'd outgrow by this age. But she hasn't and this is who she is now. B was not impressed and got a little freaked out when it came up he lived in the same state as her (for now). We didn't hang out long. Not our circus; not our monkeys! And everyone was loud and there were 3 large dogs to manage. Totally not our "happy place". Amy seems to be doing OK at taking care of herself; so Hol & I have been shifting our "help" to the boys - they are still trying to move out and be independent. Its one struggle after another for them.
B and I are still mostly homebodies. It just feels like there is so much to do here we can't make plans to just "go somewhere". And Hol's schedule impacts ours - because we end up dogsitting a lot for Knuckles for her. Maybe we can get out some this fall. I still want to try to get to the Cedar Creek Civil War enactment in October. I've been living in the area since 1980 and still haven't been. I mostly want to peruse the suttler's camp for period fashions & utilitarian items. Pet some horses - ha! B's interest is more personal, as he's related to one of the generals; I forget which one. I participated in the development of the Civil War Battlefield Foundations work many moons ago and I'm sure you know just how many places in Va were involved. I did drive B past a French & Indian War era Fort Site last week on one of our "hunting & gathering" trips.
It's about time for us to start topping off our wood for next winter and if it would EVER cool off & stop raining - my gardens need work too. AGAIN. But I'm hearing much the same around the country.
I'm glad you're getting out & about meeting with people. It must be helpful to feel connected to your community.
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Borrow/buy/steal a window AC unit, Hopsy.
Keep one room in the house cold, and live/sleep in it, till AC is resolved.
Lighter
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Thanks for the advice, Lighter.
My windows are old-school awning style. I love them because you can leave them open in the rain but they won't accommodate a window unit. Fans 'R Us.
But right now, I am joyfully luxuriating (plus Pup, doubly) in renewed central AC!
Very nice times with humans lately. A new friend (maybe two) and several invited me to come stay in their AC. Lunch with one writer pal today and one in the works.
The JOY is, the too-handsome HVAC guy spent 3 hours fixing it this morning (I wandered around in my boxers and no-bra Tshirt and he didn't care, said he'd be in his underwear if roles were reversed), and now Pup and I are just pancaking in the cool, which is absolutely sublime. BLISSSSS!
I'll never take it for granted again. Good to know I can cope with 89 degrees all night, but for now, nice to know I don't have to.
hugs
Hops
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Oh, thank goodness AC repaired, Hops. Having recently slept in 88 degrees, I can say...... I would have rigged a roll around AC unit, into a window, with tape and cardboard.....fabric and wood. Whatever.
I will say....you sound renewed, grateful and invigorated by the experience. A very good thing, and I loved the part where you remained in your boxers and comfy T-shirt. Sounds like humorous banter didn't melt away.
Looking forward to new friendship moments.
Lighter
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Doesn't hurt that your A/C miracle was drop dead handsome, either! <wink wink>
I've been hanging out in a flowy maxi dress in this heat all week. Keeping a 6 yr old company. Hol is about to explode if a feather touches her. The guys - B & two workmen - are erecting a timber-frame ranch style sign* holder for Hol out of 8x8 logs. It's extra heavy. In the sun. In the heat. Being "guys" and having guy fun. Any miscommunications are pushing the red "nuke from orbit" button...
and it's Mercury in Retrograde season again.
* She's named her place "The Roving Haunt".
I'm just happy today's high temp is SUPPOSED to be 75 - so maybe just 80.
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In the handsome-HVACer department, I remembered a private cliche-mantra:
I may be old, but I ain't dead. (Bursts out sweating for a different reason....LOL).
I was feeling some kinda parallel empathy at B's reaction to learning A's in his home state. Curious, was he feeling uncomfortable that she might begin grifting or making unwelcome requests of him? I felt discomfort on reading it, because of my D's patterns.
I'm glad A's foibles no longer ruffle your serenity. Anchored in land, with B, and even wobbly Hol, you have sounded generally happier and more rooted for a long time.
hugs and bravo,
Hops