Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Meh on January 04, 2026, 03:06:05 PM
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Some stress. Confirmation stress.
No way I can put down all the details.
Unfortunately I have found my self and at my N F's apartment after not seeing them for decades. It is filthy. They have maximum inertia. This morning I first cleaned out one of the two vacuums that are also covered in dust. I am allergic to dust mites have been tested for allergies years ago on advice of my general provider. Did the skin prick test. Anyhow. 1) I got a dust mask from a box which was also covered in dust. I grabbed the newer looking of the two vacuums and told my N. Relative I was going to clean it out... they started going into some long winded crap which I can't even listen to. I was taking some action they were going to fill up my ACTION with the sound of their own voice and their inertia and negativity. 2) I did the vacuum cleaning in the living area where I am sleeping on the floor. It's not a big area. There are several boxes of cardboard with unused stuff in them. Few days ago I found a pan of rotting food in one of the boxes tht had been sitting like that for two years when N Relative moved into this building. I cleaned under and behind the boxes and then I restacked them up in a much more tidy way. I wiped the surface of stuff down with a damp paper towel. Earlier I cooked some potato and boiled some eggs. I said I am going to put the food away soon if you want some go ahead before I stick it away. They said they would have some.... now they are just lingering around the kitchen but not eating so I can't go in there at the moment... I have decided to type and look out the window... it's only food getting cold it's not worth another argument. I will stay away from their proximity.
But here is the thing after cleaning I said "I took a benedryl don't be surprised if I fall asleep" ... I was just making a statement. They said they were going over to a neighbor's house to watch football earlier. Anyhow when I said I was going to take benedryl... they launched into talking about their health problems something they do all the time. Today right when I had told them I had taken a benedryl for my allergies they started saying they might take a pill for their back pain ALL OF A SUDDEN. They said nothing about it earlier. So even me stating that I am having allergy problems they have to somehow route everything back to themselves. Well they are just milling about right now as I don't look at them. They are not in any apparent pain all of a sudden like they seemed to be complaining about. Anyhow I eventually just reiterated what I said when they started complaining about their back. I just reiterated "well I am having allergy health problems." AND TO THIS THEY RESPONDED TO ME BY SWEARING AT ME AND GETTING MAD AND MEAN. The relative said something like "well than F me" but it's hard for me to type out how they said it. You see I had been wondering over the past couple days if the N actually has a touch of Autism because of the strange behaviors they've got. But This mean self centered outburst just now really seals the deal for me that they are "N," and I should NOT FEEL BAD FOR THEM.
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I haven't seen this person in decades and I do not want to be here. Things are getting weird. I am waiting for them to leave as they said they would to go watch TV. I will probably try to lay down when they leave. They are still slowly milling about in the kitchen so that I can't put the food away like I said I would. And now they are going to sit down and eat the food I cooked right now. What a waste of time to be around an N. There are so many weird things that have transpired but I am not sure I am going to write them down. It doesn't matter what their diagnosis is... the diagnosis they never received. It doesn't matter if it's conversational narcissism OR if it's Narcissistic personality disorder OR schizoid personality. What matters is that it has a bad impact on me. It is selfish, not self aware, argumentative, controlling. Very controlling. Okay I am going to put the food in the fridge as they are not standing in the kitchen and it will only take me a few seconds. And if they say anything I am going to do gray rock verbally. Few words as possible.
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They helped themselves to the food I got and prepared didn't say thank you didn't say it was nice. They didn't put the rest in the refrigerator.
I am tired and I do not want to be here. There is no privacy. There is no more of the narcissist being thrilled they are the center of attention. They didn't thank me for cleaning out their vacuum.
I have to get out of this situation.
When I first got here they were were talking in like this weak voice. Now they are loud jerks. It was an act.
They've still not taken their pain medication or given any indication of real sudden backpain. I am staring out the window and just watched a seagull from the adjacent building rooftop fly. Trying to do the most basic things... cleaning and eating... they've got to control all of it and try to make everything a moment of inert misery. The weird outburst today I am not going to like it sort of makes me nervous. The strange unpredictable landscape of their mental problems.
They had bags and bags of dusty papers and junk piled up in the living area and in their bedroom. I spent hours helping them shred papers they had hoarded... because the mess and dust filth id depressing to look at and i can't DO that. I can't look at filth and ignore it. I took out so many bags of garbage. Here is the sad thing. I went on Amazon and I ordered an inexpensive but nice new bed quilt. I was feeling sorry for them and depressed for them but also myself. I just can't understand why people insist on low functioning. Even with all the cleaning their room is still a mess and they've not made their bed with the nice new quilt. I hate being around this person because of how controlling they are. Just now they opened a draw sounds like they looked at a pill bottle and then tossed it loudly back into the drawer. They didn't take it though. I would hear them noisily gulping water.
"1:25 PM PST, followed by the Sunday Night Football game at 5:20 PM PST."
Had started to wonder if there is autism OR something like Diogenes syndrome OR from writing and Google ....
had wondered if it was:
"The term you are looking for is passive-aggressive personality disorder (PAPD), which was officially renamed negativistic personality disorder in later clinical literature before its removal from the standard diagnostic manual.
While it is no longer an official, standalone diagnosis in the DSM-5-TR, its characteristics are still recognized as a problematic behavior pattern or part of other personality disorders."
I don't know WHY this above was removed from the manual. Also I don't care at the moment.
I am going to go ahead and apply all of the above. Controlling, covert narcissist, conversational narcissist, PAPD, dependency disorder etc.
They've got one friend in their building complex who is female and yesterday they awkwardly called that person and asked them if they wanted to "go shopping for underwear" at a local store. I heard the other person on the phone decline saying they didn't need anything. So N didn't go at all. ... few days ago I had offered to just order it on Amazon because I have a trial. They refused. They give irrational explanations "I don't want the boxes piling up in the mail room."
There was a posting on the bulletin board inside the building for haircuts.. I texted the person and she does it in your home and she is very very affordable. I let N know that the lady sounded nice etc. They refused. I don't care. It's just depressing looking at this person but it's not just all the outward stuff it's the gross mental landscape that leads to all of this. Anyhow. I heard N friend on the phone ask them N was going to get their haircut and N said no "they don't like all the people returning Christmas gifts and this is why they won't go to the barber shop... because you know lots of people are going to the barber to return Christmas gifts.
My benedryl is so kicked in right now I am tired. I will set my alarm for two hours or so and then maybe go for a walk.
- i did succeed in cleaning the area where I have to sleep.
- I did make breakfast
- I did some laundry
- I reflected
- I am going gray rock
I do not have to match their inertia. I do not have to match their negativity. I do not have to match their neglect. I do not have to match their self absorption.
- There is a book on tape about anxiety I half listened to. I want to finish listening to it at some point.
This relative person they may have co-morbid disorders....It's possible a person could be on the autism spectrum AND also have personality disorders. These are not mutually exclusive.
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Googled about limited interests:
"Yes, static or limited interests—such as sticking to a few long-term activities for decades, while showing no initiative for new ones like learning —can indeed relate to certain personality disorders beyond autism. While restricted interests are a hallmark of autism spectrum disorder (a neurodevelopmental condition with early onset), similar patterns can emerge in personality disorders as secondary traits tied to rigidity, resistance to change, or emotional dysregulation, without the core social communication deficits of autism.
mdpi.com
For instance, in schizoid personality disorder (Cluster A), individuals often exhibit a limited range of emotional expression and interests, preferring solitary or repetitive activities due to indifference to social engagement or novelty. This can manifest as "static" hobbies that provide comfort without requiring adaptation or interaction, but it's rooted in detachment rather than neurodevelopmental fixation.
mdpi.com
Similarly, obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (OCPD, or anankastic traits in ICD-11) involves rigid adherence to routines, stubbornness, and inflexibility, which might limit interests to a narrow, familiar set—resisting new ones like a card game because they disrupt established patterns or require effort seen as unnecessary.
mdpi.com
This aligns with the negativistic or passive-aggressive traits you mentioned earlier (removed from DSM but still discussed in psychology), where procrastination, inefficiency, and passive resistance to demands lead to inertia and avoidance of change.
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
In narcissistic personality disorder (Cluster B), limited interests might stem from entitlement or self-focus—disinterest in anything not enhancing their ego or requiring vulnerability (e.g., learning something new where they might "fail").
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I do not have to match their inertia. I do not have to match their negativity. I do not have to match their neglect. I do not have to match their self absorption.
Love this, Meh. Inspiring mantra!
If it's an affirmation, research says it works best within the subconscious/brain if framed positively, though, as in:
I turn toward positive action. I turn toward positivity. I turn toward rest and nourishment (for ex). I turn toward interest in others. [It can be phrased any way you like, just an example....]
It sounds like you've just done a really Deep Dive on these disappointing people, so you understand your reasons for recoil. That's awesome.
hugs
Hops
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I recognize that need.... to understand nonsensical people, Meh. To dissect, research and perform forensic acrobats.
You understand....you wrote it yourself.....
the important thing is how you feel.
That's what's yours to resolve. Only that. And it's a relief when everything else drops away, bc it will....usually does....IME.
Once Brother Mud wrote to me, on this forum....
"You'll never make sense of something nonsensical." I'm paraphrasing, but he wanted to save me from the extended puzzling, and needing nonsense to square up....I really needed it to. Again.
Hops once wrote....."we stop when we become sick of ourselves being sick of ourselves being sick. " Again....paraphrasing, but a necessary thing to plod through, IME.
All the research helps. Understanding there'll be no understanding, eventually, helps, ime.
You haven't asked for advice, or given enough info to hang it on, so will just say.....
you deserve to live in the light, with clarity, and understanding of your own true self.
I fear you're in the dusty dark, for whatever reason....and it's not your darkness to fix, though I understand that longing.....and need to act.
Once I realized I had no power to change, the things I can't change, it got easier.
No.....not easier.
It became possible, bc.....I fail either miserably
OR
do what I can, then put the story on the shelf, and turn back to the joy in front of me.
All things remaining the same....I win every time I choose joy, and responsiveness, over abandoning myself to things I didn't create, and can never change.
Wherever you are, Meh....you deserve the lioness's share of your compassion.
Lighter
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I'm glad for you, that you tried to help "decent-fy" these people's living conditions even though you've given yourself permission not to like them, even if they can't help being who they are. That's pretty magnanimous of you. And now, they can't touch you anymore.
No, we'll never understand why people are like this. No, it's not our job to "fix" them. Yes, we have a life that involves way more enjoyable experiences. We are pretty fortunate that we do.
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Thanks Skeptikal.
I try when I can to mildly upgrade my quality of life by means available.
Today I went for a walk, grabbed an old frayed free-library J. Conrad book/ Made a random junk casserole because casseroles are pretty good even with random junk on hand. Finished the anxiety self help book on tape. Got out a sewing kit to try to fix some ripped pants later. Did some grocery pick up. (I am too food oriented right now)... anyhow.
There is always so much more to do. In fact I think I want to get through some stuff tonight.
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Maybe too much to write. Maybe analysis paralysis. Maybe a beer-induced brain fog.
I think I've been getting a beer once ever 2-3 days. Not exactly extreme more more than my normal. Definitely a minor self medication. Now it appears there is info out says alcohol is carcinogenic and that is a new one on me.
And now I am spacing out and have not much more.
Earlier today I was writing out a worry inventory. There are just too many big and small things that I worry about all at once and if takes up all my cognitive space like worry hoarding. I hate the word hoarding because I've come to loathe hoarding.
Had a book at the Narcissist's place "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" by Margalis Fjelstad. I had to throw it into the garbage dumpster yesterday on my way out. If I had left it laying around it would just give them some kind of ammunition maybe. Who knows not something I want to find out.
So I walked into a thirft store today didn't get anything but I saw a book with the title Garlic Is Life by Chester Aaron. It looked like an easy to read micro-.... well maybe not a micro history but along that line. Maybe "Object Studies" is that genre. And then a shelf of self help and a book in front that said something about being controlling. And I wonder if I am controlling as like a reaction to being around a controlling person who feeds on antagonism.
It's only 7:00 pm it feels dark or late yeah both.
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You're right, Meh. Worry drains us, and takes up space where creative problem solving usually lives, ime.
My T says to do what I can, then put the worries on a shelf.....then go back to joyful things.
Lighter
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You're right, Meh. Worry drains us, and takes up space where creative problem solving usually lives, ime.
My T says to do what I can, then put the worries on a shelf.....then go back to joyful things.
Lighter
Sounds good Lighter. Joy is often memorable at least. Looking back even in bad times if one can squeeze something in there that is apart from worries it's good. Worries are not something that I often look back on and think "I am glad I worried about that." -- But the worry inventory for me is about figuring out rationally what I can put on the back burner. I was starting to worry my old pants would like rip in the butt lol... it's like one of those public shame worries. I am living light to put it mildly and all my personal belongings seem scattered to the wind but it also is a fact that I have to like de-prioritize this worry for the day at least. I need to just get some Jim Morrison leather pants. Just kidding. Anyhow. The worry categorization is just a journal process for me. I think it's just me working through a crisis of stress because if I don't write it out it's all like vague drifting weather patterns in my emotional field. Maybe I should just call it my stress cloud. My worry cloud. Anyhow. Merely trying to de-escalate myself. I have some goals for the day. And I think I will simplify it more to two main goals. I do need to do some job applications and I am going to go out briefly I think to listen to some live music maybe. And that is that. Oh exercise must happen. And lunch must happen. - walk-applications-music-eat --- yeah that is good enough. :)
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[moved after I posted it on the wrong thread....]
Meh, if your Nfather is making pointless calls to ask a woman to share her un-needed plastic bags....sounds to me like a fairly typical N-move, because what people driven by the narcissism gene crave as much as oxygen, is just attention. Any attention from any source at any time is better than their agony without it. And getting old and presumably less mobile and energetic, he's reduced to this?
Maybe she is patient with him, or offers him a friendly voice for a moment.
From my experiences with Nmom, N-BF, and even my latest N-friend, his empty call seems like an attention fix. Your thoughts about the bags thing are rational and logical. I think Nism comes from a nearly cellular survival part of them, and a thoughtful person's exasperation doesn't register -- or change them, ever.
I was groomed my whole life to pay ATTENTION (comfort, soothe, praise, cooperate with or obey and listen to...) the nearby N. It's only been in the last decade or so that I've learned enough about the disorder to see patterns, and after loads of reading about it, to recognize what they are usually about. I still wasted two precious years with N-bf (M), and though it's not romantic, my intense struggles over Poet are the same thing in a different combination. Such old habits take a sturdy trowel and a LOT of digging to uproot.
As you've witnessed here lately, my drive to do all that was/is also a survival drive. I'm grateful for insight even if it comes late, and generally able to calm myself down eventually, with a little help from my friends. And I'm faster at doing it myself sometimes, too.
I know you can graaaaaduallly get a stronger grip on your own handlebars, so either N-parent won't be able to make you feel crazy. You AIN'T crazy. You're sane.
Love the way you observe so finely, too. This doesn't make their issues go away, but it can build increasing confidence in your OWN mind, your OWN decisions.
hugs
Hops
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Hops,
The part where you write that you had wasted two precious years on various N relationships stands out to me. The N thing is very much a deadend. There is lots of stagnation. Simple things feel like they are made difficult with an N. Difficult things made worse.
In that one book that I put into the garbage to dispose of my self-help evidence there was a line in the book that pointed out how an N will do this very tangential thinking in their conversations but there is ultimately no point to it like there is no goal-cooperation-task-action-activity that comes out of it. That was something I saw when I was at my N father's place. And when my brother was still alive my brother had mentioned something about this years ago how the N father had a STORY about everything and he wanted to tell you a story about this thing and that thing etc. But this is not really the mind of a person who ever has to get anything done. And anyhow Narcissists waste time in so many ways. For me it was just confirmation that the author Margalis Fjelstad had made a point of writing it down in a book.
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Another observation about the N. So the N did a lot of loud belching and loud yawning.
Most of the time if I burp I can kind of burp out of my nose and it doesn't make that much noise. I mean in any case it's not a call of the wild type of situation.
So I was looking on reddit and there were lots of people who were describing how N's tend to make a lot of noise like this. Like loud mouth smacking when they eat.
The other thing that was going on with the N and I really don't want to write that much about the N now. In fact I am going to stop. I don't feel like it. I have some other things I have to do.
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- I don't want to make any more observations about the N. due to I am just so done with them being a focal point. It's like they become a topic of a degree. A degree in witnessing a disturbed person and then trying to anticipate what the hell is going to happen.
- I've looked up a term called "intellectualization" and it's sort of procrastination maybe, maybe cope, maybe defense. Maybe there is some processing in there. -- I've got more to say about it I had a point but I am just trying to get so many things done.
Okay so my point and question is this IS THERE a right and wrong time to "process." I really do have more to articulate about that and I wanted to be more clear and specific though I am missing the clear and specific.
Seems like I go through the working rat-race rush stuff... cleaning, going, eating, sleeping, preparing for work, working, spacing out watching TV maybe. Like a vehicle in motion that is occasionally parked only to do nothing.
Then there are times where I feel everything is falling apart stuff is not going well it's even sometimes like an emotional storm.
So one is just trying to keep your crap together barely and the other is a lower level of not really keeping your crap together but still trying to function and get stuff done but all the emotional stuff no longer repressed or something.
I will come back to this again. I feel there is a problem with intellectualizing and also I think there is a tid bit of value in it because without it I would probably not be sorting things out at all. What I call journaling I am wondering if it's a maladaptive thing. Though I have talked my way out of problems before. Do I have a point that I am making. Who knows I will leave it sit here while I go do some other stuff.
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Meh,
I don't believe there is a "right" or "wrong" time to process your path to mental freedom. I spent YEARS (living with Nmom) analysing, reading, breaking it down, spotting and recognizing the behaviors, figuring out sloooooowly what behaviors and damage it all left in me.....
There were times I was absolutely thrilled about getting a new insight into Nism. Every single small thing I learned about it felt like the window to my mind had opened another inch and more oxygen was breezing in. There were times I felt so drained by it that I was paralysed into that work-home-survive thing you've experienced so much of.
It's easy to say at 75, but time does heal. It doesn't perfect, but it does heal. My mother, at 98, finally left the planet. And eventually, left me too. And in time, I found out more about her, and unavoidable compassion and forgiveness occurred.
That said, I seldom think of her in my liberated life now, and I don't wake up thinking about narcissism. Endlessly grateful for a name for it, I'm just living and writing, and facing up to my own mess now. Not liking it, but not ashamed.
I think you're beginning to weigh and value and defend your OWN TIME.
hugs
Hops
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What you're describing, Meh.....feels adjacent to my "nose on pebble" lesson in therapy.
When one's nose is ON the pebble/problem/trauma/person,/people who created the trauma...
the pebble is HUGE .....
it's all we see.
Once we learn to create some distance......emotional distance.... the crude up and view the entire field....
we begin to see the other pebbles.
We see grass and flowers.....
we see trees and eventually sky and stars and moon and sea. Amazing.
Learning to meditate/breathe/rest our limbic systems.....
creates a split second of choice, IME.
Choice to NOT tumble down old, familiar rabbit holes of reactivity....of lightening fast brain pathways.
It builds a split second to SEE choice, and sometimes select it, IME.....to build on new choices. Build them strong.
Your father and mother are pebbles, and you're learning how to create enough distance to see other things.....
this is HUGE, Meh!!! IME, of course.
In your experience, it may feel like something else. I look forward to hearing about it.
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Thanks. You can see I was having a bit of trouble getting focused there.
The other question I had was this: Do you have examples of learned helplessness? Have you experienced it in yourself?
This area is something I want to work on as well as "agency."
The thing is I listened to a book on tape about anticipation anxiety and it really FITS VERY WELL I think my habits/behaviors.
So I am wondering if learned helplessness and anticipation anxiety basically are two terms to describe the same thing OR if these things are different.
Couple days ago I had to clean out my voicemail on my phone for example. Now this sounds pathetically dumb but my heart just kind of squeezed in at the thought of doing it. I don't mean "heart squeezed in" just as a phrase of speech. I actually had a physical sensation of dread, fear, loathing, stress, anxiety... something.. .heck even heart brokenness. And this was all about the SMALL TASK of clearing my voicemails... now it could be that it's 1) I feel I have not much to look forward to 2) most the voicemails I get are spam or some kind of headache to deal with. Maybe I am hoarding voicemails like a timestamp of past events.
Maybe the small task of clearing voicemails feels emotionally loaded. And things that are emotionally loaded I just have to focus on that one thing and do a small portion of it take ACTION and then it's just no longer a big deal I think.
In any case I did go through some of my voicemails and it wasn't a big deal when I actually did it.
Now I suspect there is a procrastination anxiety anticipation anxiety thing where the gravity of consequence is significant. Like how when a person is living paycheck to paycheck that deposit into your account has consequences if it doesn't get in there. But when you have savings there is no consequence it's just a routine maintenance thing after a while.
In any case I really do have to research learned helplessness, forced helplessness, agency, and "anxiety" a bit more.
I will just give myself allowance to do that when I can. I think it's worth it. I don't think that is merely over-intellectualization. I mean it sort of is but there could be something useful in it.
Is being too stressed and over-whelmed the same as learned helplessness. Maybe it is.
Have any of you worked on this learned helplessness thing? What is it for you?
Okay so I am going off to get something done today.
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It appears that I am reading GAD is same as learned helplessness. It's just that in books about anxiety they don't use the term learned helplessness and they do not say what caused it. I suppose it doesn't matter as long as one attempts to use some techniques. So this also means procrastination is linked to learned helplessness.
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Thanks for bringing all that up, Meh. It's been satisfying to think about this morning, like a tuneup.
I learned from some article recently that procrastination and disorder are often features of ADHD, my particular bugaboo. Perfectionism slides in with it, in the sense that I fall into sloughs during which I don't do a basic thing (over and over) because I've already told myself I have to do it perfectly, like Dad's excellent but OCD map making, or old M cooking like it's an Olympic competition. Perfectionistic rumination is paralysing. Starts a cycle...oh, I know I'll screw it up, so why try? The world is bad, people are bad, I have no power to change my life so why try? (By now I know better than to accept this justification but also know my self-talk is where it starts.)
For me, perfectionism = anxiety that sometimes runs away with me. It's really fear of STARTING a new behavior, because what if I don't complete it just right? That makes a whole cascade of fear of older age or incompetence kick in.
I once interviewed Martin Seligman for a book chapter, and read his book, Learned Optimism. No self-help theory is magical, imo, but this one did grind off a lot of my resistance to hopefulness. There must be newer authors examining this now.
I haven't learned anything theoretical about why writing absorbs me so much I can have pinpoint focus or work on something for hours and hours. (The gift within the problem of adhd for some people is an ability to hyperfocus in some area.) I know I feel happy as I work on ideas like voluntary simplicity (not minimalism, exactly), or music (neglected piano), or simply a small painting. I need to create because when I do, some positive action in duller parts of life feels more natural.
I haven't worked with my HANDS in ages, unless typing counts, LOL. And there's a hand-brain connection that...does something good. Explains gardening and art, imo.
hugs
Hops
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The rotting stagnant narcissist watches me just stares and stares. When I try to pack up my bag with my computer etc. They try to look at every item I touch. It's unsettling. It feels VERY gross and uncomfortable. I googled it and landed on a video where someone else is saying just this thing about covert narcissists specifically they just watch and stare and stare.
It seems to be that narcissists are way MORE disturbed than most people believe.
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Oh, yeah. Their creepy glare has NO POWER you don't give it.
And from your observing (instead of enmeshing), you know you are different.
Grey rock technique...over again.
Oxygen at you....
hugs
Hops
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"Awareness vs. Impairment: Someone in a wheelchair isn't choosing not to walk to spite you. A person with high-level narcissistic or psychopathic traits, however, is often making a series of tactical choices to maintain power, hide their tracks, and exploit others.
The "Mask of Sanity": This is a term often used in psychology to describe how abusers and psychopaths can appear perfectly normal—even charming—to the outside world. This ability to "switch it on and off" suggests a level of control that a typical disability doesn't have.
Harm as a Tool: For a child abuser or a psychopath, the "malfunction" isn't just a personal struggle; it is a predatory orientation toward other people."
It's Google generated text.