Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Meh on January 04, 2026, 03:06:05 PM
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Some stress. Confirmation stress.
No way I can put down all the details.
Unfortunately I have found my self and at my N F's apartment after not seeing them for decades. It is filthy. They have maximum inertia. This morning I first cleaned out one of the two vacuums that are also covered in dust. I am allergic to dust mites have been tested for allergies years ago on advice of my general provider. Did the skin prick test. Anyhow. 1) I got a dust mask from a box which was also covered in dust. I grabbed the newer looking of the two vacuums and told my N. Relative I was going to clean it out... they started going into some long winded crap which I can't even listen to. I was taking some action they were going to fill up my ACTION with the sound of their own voice and their inertia and negativity. 2) I did the vacuum cleaning in the living area where I am sleeping on the floor. It's not a big area. There are several boxes of cardboard with unused stuff in them. Few days ago I found a pan of rotting food in one of the boxes tht had been sitting like that for two years when N Relative moved into this building. I cleaned under and behind the boxes and then I restacked them up in a much more tidy way. I wiped the surface of stuff down with a damp paper towel. Earlier I cooked some potato and boiled some eggs. I said I am going to put the food away soon if you want some go ahead before I stick it away. They said they would have some.... now they are just lingering around the kitchen but not eating so I can't go in there at the moment... I have decided to type and look out the window... it's only food getting cold it's not worth another argument. I will stay away from their proximity.
But here is the thing after cleaning I said "I took a benedryl don't be surprised if I fall asleep" ... I was just making a statement. They said they were going over to a neighbor's house to watch football earlier. Anyhow when I said I was going to take benedryl... they launched into talking about their health problems something they do all the time. Today right when I had told them I had taken a benedryl for my allergies they started saying they might take a pill for their back pain ALL OF A SUDDEN. They said nothing about it earlier. So even me stating that I am having allergy problems they have to somehow route everything back to themselves. Well they are just milling about right now as I don't look at them. They are not in any apparent pain all of a sudden like they seemed to be complaining about. Anyhow I eventually just reiterated what I said when they started complaining about their back. I just reiterated "well I am having allergy health problems." AND TO THIS THEY RESPONDED TO ME BY SWEARING AT ME AND GETTING MAD AND MEAN. The relative said something like "well than F me" but it's hard for me to type out how they said it. You see I had been wondering over the past couple days if the N actually has a touch of Autism because of the strange behaviors they've got. But This mean self centered outburst just now really seals the deal for me that they are "N," and I should NOT FEEL BAD FOR THEM.
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I haven't seen this person in decades and I do not want to be here. Things are getting weird. I am waiting for them to leave as they said they would to go watch TV. I will probably try to lay down when they leave. They are still slowly milling about in the kitchen so that I can't put the food away like I said I would. And now they are going to sit down and eat the food I cooked right now. What a waste of time to be around an N. There are so many weird things that have transpired but I am not sure I am going to write them down. It doesn't matter what their diagnosis is... the diagnosis they never received. It doesn't matter if it's conversational narcissism OR if it's Narcissistic personality disorder OR schizoid personality. What matters is that it has a bad impact on me. It is selfish, not self aware, argumentative, controlling. Very controlling. Okay I am going to put the food in the fridge as they are not standing in the kitchen and it will only take me a few seconds. And if they say anything I am going to do gray rock verbally. Few words as possible.
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They helped themselves to the food I got and prepared didn't say thank you didn't say it was nice. They didn't put the rest in the refrigerator.
I am tired and I do not want to be here. There is no privacy. There is no more of the narcissist being thrilled they are the center of attention. They didn't thank me for cleaning out their vacuum.
I have to get out of this situation.
When I first got here they were were talking in like this weak voice. Now they are loud jerks. It was an act.
They've still not taken their pain medication or given any indication of real sudden backpain. I am staring out the window and just watched a seagull from the adjacent building rooftop fly. Trying to do the most basic things... cleaning and eating... they've got to control all of it and try to make everything a moment of inert misery. The weird outburst today I am not going to like it sort of makes me nervous. The strange unpredictable landscape of their mental problems.
They had bags and bags of dusty papers and junk piled up in the living area and in their bedroom. I spent hours helping them shred papers they had hoarded... because the mess and dust filth id depressing to look at and i can't DO that. I can't look at filth and ignore it. I took out so many bags of garbage. Here is the sad thing. I went on Amazon and I ordered an inexpensive but nice new bed quilt. I was feeling sorry for them and depressed for them but also myself. I just can't understand why people insist on low functioning. Even with all the cleaning their room is still a mess and they've not made their bed with the nice new quilt. I hate being around this person because of how controlling they are. Just now they opened a draw sounds like they looked at a pill bottle and then tossed it loudly back into the drawer. They didn't take it though. I would hear them noisily gulping water.
"1:25 PM PST, followed by the Sunday Night Football game at 5:20 PM PST."
Had started to wonder if there is autism OR something like Diogenes syndrome OR from writing and Google ....
had wondered if it was:
"The term you are looking for is passive-aggressive personality disorder (PAPD), which was officially renamed negativistic personality disorder in later clinical literature before its removal from the standard diagnostic manual.
While it is no longer an official, standalone diagnosis in the DSM-5-TR, its characteristics are still recognized as a problematic behavior pattern or part of other personality disorders."
I don't know WHY this above was removed from the manual. Also I don't care at the moment.
I am going to go ahead and apply all of the above. Controlling, covert narcissist, conversational narcissist, PAPD, dependency disorder etc.
They've got one friend in their building complex who is female and yesterday they awkwardly called that person and asked them if they wanted to "go shopping for underwear" at a local store. I heard the other person on the phone decline saying they didn't need anything. So N didn't go at all. ... few days ago I had offered to just order it on Amazon because I have a trial. They refused. They give irrational explanations "I don't want the boxes piling up in the mail room."
There was a posting on the bulletin board inside the building for haircuts.. I texted the person and she does it in your home and she is very very affordable. I let N know that the lady sounded nice etc. They refused. I don't care. It's just depressing looking at this person but it's not just all the outward stuff it's the gross mental landscape that leads to all of this. Anyhow. I heard N friend on the phone ask them N was going to get their haircut and N said no "they don't like all the people returning Christmas gifts and this is why they won't go to the barber shop... because you know lots of people are going to the barber to return Christmas gifts.
My benedryl is so kicked in right now I am tired. I will set my alarm for two hours or so and then maybe go for a walk.
- i did succeed in cleaning the area where I have to sleep.
- I did make breakfast
- I did some laundry
- I reflected
- I am going gray rock
I do not have to match their inertia. I do not have to match their negativity. I do not have to match their neglect. I do not have to match their self absorption.
- There is a book on tape about anxiety I half listened to. I want to finish listening to it at some point.
This relative person they may have co-morbid disorders....It's possible a person could be on the autism spectrum AND also have personality disorders. These are not mutually exclusive.
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Googled about limited interests:
"Yes, static or limited interests—such as sticking to a few long-term activities for decades, while showing no initiative for new ones like learning —can indeed relate to certain personality disorders beyond autism. While restricted interests are a hallmark of autism spectrum disorder (a neurodevelopmental condition with early onset), similar patterns can emerge in personality disorders as secondary traits tied to rigidity, resistance to change, or emotional dysregulation, without the core social communication deficits of autism.
mdpi.com
For instance, in schizoid personality disorder (Cluster A), individuals often exhibit a limited range of emotional expression and interests, preferring solitary or repetitive activities due to indifference to social engagement or novelty. This can manifest as "static" hobbies that provide comfort without requiring adaptation or interaction, but it's rooted in detachment rather than neurodevelopmental fixation.
mdpi.com
Similarly, obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (OCPD, or anankastic traits in ICD-11) involves rigid adherence to routines, stubbornness, and inflexibility, which might limit interests to a narrow, familiar set—resisting new ones like a card game because they disrupt established patterns or require effort seen as unnecessary.
mdpi.com
This aligns with the negativistic or passive-aggressive traits you mentioned earlier (removed from DSM but still discussed in psychology), where procrastination, inefficiency, and passive resistance to demands lead to inertia and avoidance of change.
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
In narcissistic personality disorder (Cluster B), limited interests might stem from entitlement or self-focus—disinterest in anything not enhancing their ego or requiring vulnerability (e.g., learning something new where they might "fail").
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I do not have to match their inertia. I do not have to match their negativity. I do not have to match their neglect. I do not have to match their self absorption.
Love this, Meh. Inspiring mantra!
If it's an affirmation, research says it works best within the subconscious/brain if framed positively, though, as in:
I turn toward positive action. I turn toward positivity. I turn toward rest and nourishment (for ex). I turn toward interest in others. [It can be phrased any way you like, just an example....]
It sounds like you've just done a really Deep Dive on these disappointing people, so you understand your reasons for recoil. That's awesome.
hugs
Hops
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I recognize that need.... to understand nonsensical people, Meh. To dissect, research and perform forensic acrobats.
You understand....you wrote it yourself.....
the important thing is how you feel.
That's what's yours to resolve. Only that. And it's a relief when everything else drops away, bc it will....usually does....IME.
Once Brother Mud wrote to me, on this forum....
"You'll never make sense of something nonsensical." I'm paraphrasing, but he wanted to save me from the extended puzzling, and needing nonsense to square up....I really needed it to. Again.
Hops once wrote....."we stop when we become sick of ourselves being sick of ourselves being sick. " Again....paraphrasing, but a necessary thing to plod through, IME.
All the research helps. Understanding there'll be no understanding, eventually, helps, ime.
You haven't asked for advice, or given enough info to hang it on, so will just say.....
you deserve to live in the light, with clarity, and understanding of your own true self.
I fear you're in the dusty dark, for whatever reason....and it's not your darkness to fix, though I understand that longing.....and need to act.
Once I realized I had no power to change, the things I can't change, it got easier.
No.....not easier.
It became possible, bc.....I fail either miserably
OR
do what I can, then put the story on the shelf, and turn back to the joy in front of me.
All things remaining the same....I win every time I choose joy, and responsiveness, over abandoning myself to things I didn't create, and can never change.
Wherever you are, Meh....you deserve the lioness's share of your compassion.
Lighter
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I'm glad for you, that you tried to help "decent-fy" these people's living conditions even though you've given yourself permission not to like them, even if they can't help being who they are. That's pretty magnanimous of you. And now, they can't touch you anymore.
No, we'll never understand why people are like this. No, it's not our job to "fix" them. Yes, we have a life that involves way more enjoyable experiences. We are pretty fortunate that we do.
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Thanks Skeptikal.
I try when I can to mildly upgrade my quality of life by means available.
Today I went for a walk, grabbed an old frayed free-library J. Conrad book/ Made a random junk casserole because casseroles are pretty good even with random junk on hand. Finished the anxiety self help book on tape. Got out a sewing kit to try to fix some ripped pants later. Did some grocery pick up. (I am too food oriented right now)... anyhow.
There is always so much more to do. In fact I think I want to get through some stuff tonight.
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Maybe too much to write. Maybe analysis paralysis. Maybe a beer-induced brain fog.
I think I've been getting a beer once ever 2-3 days. Not exactly extreme more more than my normal. Definitely a minor self medication. Now it appears there is info out says alcohol is carcinogenic and that is a new one on me.
And now I am spacing out and have not much more.
Earlier today I was writing out a worry inventory. There are just too many big and small things that I worry about all at once and if takes up all my cognitive space like worry hoarding. I hate the word hoarding because I've come to loathe hoarding.
Had a book at the Narcissist's place "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" by Margalis Fjelstad. I had to throw it into the garbage dumpster yesterday on my way out. If I had left it laying around it would just give them some kind of ammunition maybe. Who knows not something I want to find out.
So I walked into a thirft store today didn't get anything but I saw a book with the title Garlic Is Life by Chester Aaron. It looked like an easy to read micro-.... well maybe not a micro history but along that line. Maybe "Object Studies" is that genre. And then a shelf of self help and a book in front that said something about being controlling. And I wonder if I am controlling as like a reaction to being around a controlling person who feeds on antagonism.
It's only 7:00 pm it feels dark or late yeah both.
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You're right, Meh. Worry drains us, and takes up space where creative problem solving usually lives, ime.
My T says to do what I can, then put the worries on a shelf.....then go back to joyful things.
Lighter
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You're right, Meh. Worry drains us, and takes up space where creative problem solving usually lives, ime.
My T says to do what I can, then put the worries on a shelf.....then go back to joyful things.
Lighter
Sounds good Lighter. Joy is often memorable at least. Looking back even in bad times if one can squeeze something in there that is apart from worries it's good. Worries are not something that I often look back on and think "I am glad I worried about that." -- But the worry inventory for me is about figuring out rationally what I can put on the back burner. I was starting to worry my old pants would like rip in the butt lol... it's like one of those public shame worries. I am living light to put it mildly and all my personal belongings seem scattered to the wind but it also is a fact that I have to like de-prioritize this worry for the day at least. I need to just get some Jim Morrison leather pants. Just kidding. Anyhow. The worry categorization is just a journal process for me. I think it's just me working through a crisis of stress because if I don't write it out it's all like vague drifting weather patterns in my emotional field. Maybe I should just call it my stress cloud. My worry cloud. Anyhow. Merely trying to de-escalate myself. I have some goals for the day. And I think I will simplify it more to two main goals. I do need to do some job applications and I am going to go out briefly I think to listen to some live music maybe. And that is that. Oh exercise must happen. And lunch must happen. - walk-applications-music-eat --- yeah that is good enough. :)
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[moved after I posted it on the wrong thread....]
Meh, if your Nfather is making pointless calls to ask a woman to share her un-needed plastic bags....sounds to me like a fairly typical N-move, because what people driven by the narcissism gene crave as much as oxygen, is just attention. Any attention from any source at any time is better than their agony without it. And getting old and presumably less mobile and energetic, he's reduced to this?
Maybe she is patient with him, or offers him a friendly voice for a moment.
From my experiences with Nmom, N-BF, and even my latest N-friend, his empty call seems like an attention fix. Your thoughts about the bags thing are rational and logical. I think Nism comes from a nearly cellular survival part of them, and a thoughtful person's exasperation doesn't register -- or change them, ever.
I was groomed my whole life to pay ATTENTION (comfort, soothe, praise, cooperate with or obey and listen to...) the nearby N. It's only been in the last decade or so that I've learned enough about the disorder to see patterns, and after loads of reading about it, to recognize what they are usually about. I still wasted two precious years with N-bf (M), and though it's not romantic, my intense struggles over Poet are the same thing in a different combination. Such old habits take a sturdy trowel and a LOT of digging to uproot.
As you've witnessed here lately, my drive to do all that was/is also a survival drive. I'm grateful for insight even if it comes late, and generally able to calm myself down eventually, with a little help from my friends. And I'm faster at doing it myself sometimes, too.
I know you can graaaaaduallly get a stronger grip on your own handlebars, so either N-parent won't be able to make you feel crazy. You AIN'T crazy. You're sane.
Love the way you observe so finely, too. This doesn't make their issues go away, but it can build increasing confidence in your OWN mind, your OWN decisions.
hugs
Hops
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Hops,
The part where you write that you had wasted two precious years on various N relationships stands out to me. The N thing is very much a deadend. There is lots of stagnation. Simple things feel like they are made difficult with an N. Difficult things made worse.
In that one book that I put into the garbage to dispose of my self-help evidence there was a line in the book that pointed out how an N will do this very tangential thinking in their conversations but there is ultimately no point to it like there is no goal-cooperation-task-action-activity that comes out of it. That was something I saw when I was at my N father's place. And when my brother was still alive my brother had mentioned something about this years ago how the N father had a STORY about everything and he wanted to tell you a story about this thing and that thing etc. But this is not really the mind of a person who ever has to get anything done. And anyhow Narcissists waste time in so many ways. For me it was just confirmation that the author Margalis Fjelstad had made a point of writing it down in a book.
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Another observation about the N. So the N did a lot of loud belching and loud yawning.
Most of the time if I burp I can kind of burp out of my nose and it doesn't make that much noise. I mean in any case it's not a call of the wild type of situation.
So I was looking on reddit and there were lots of people who were describing how N's tend to make a lot of noise like this. Like loud mouth smacking when they eat.
The other thing that was going on with the N and I really don't want to write that much about the N now. In fact I am going to stop. I don't feel like it. I have some other things I have to do.
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- I don't want to make any more observations about the N. due to I am just so done with them being a focal point. It's like they become a topic of a degree. A degree in witnessing a disturbed person and then trying to anticipate what the hell is going to happen.
- I've looked up a term called "intellectualization" and it's sort of procrastination maybe, maybe cope, maybe defense. Maybe there is some processing in there. -- I've got more to say about it I had a point but I am just trying to get so many things done.
Okay so my point and question is this IS THERE a right and wrong time to "process." I really do have more to articulate about that and I wanted to be more clear and specific though I am missing the clear and specific.
Seems like I go through the working rat-race rush stuff... cleaning, going, eating, sleeping, preparing for work, working, spacing out watching TV maybe. Like a vehicle in motion that is occasionally parked only to do nothing.
Then there are times where I feel everything is falling apart stuff is not going well it's even sometimes like an emotional storm.
So one is just trying to keep your crap together barely and the other is a lower level of not really keeping your crap together but still trying to function and get stuff done but all the emotional stuff no longer repressed or something.
I will come back to this again. I feel there is a problem with intellectualizing and also I think there is a tid bit of value in it because without it I would probably not be sorting things out at all. What I call journaling I am wondering if it's a maladaptive thing. Though I have talked my way out of problems before. Do I have a point that I am making. Who knows I will leave it sit here while I go do some other stuff.
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Meh,
I don't believe there is a "right" or "wrong" time to process your path to mental freedom. I spent YEARS (living with Nmom) analysing, reading, breaking it down, spotting and recognizing the behaviors, figuring out sloooooowly what behaviors and damage it all left in me.....
There were times I was absolutely thrilled about getting a new insight into Nism. Every single small thing I learned about it felt like the window to my mind had opened another inch and more oxygen was breezing in. There were times I felt so drained by it that I was paralysed into that work-home-survive thing you've experienced so much of.
It's easy to say at 75, but time does heal. It doesn't perfect, but it does heal. My mother, at 98, finally left the planet. And eventually, left me too. And in time, I found out more about her, and unavoidable compassion and forgiveness occurred.
That said, I seldom think of her in my liberated life now, and I don't wake up thinking about narcissism. Endlessly grateful for a name for it, I'm just living and writing, and facing up to my own mess now. Not liking it, but not ashamed.
I think you're beginning to weigh and value and defend your OWN TIME.
hugs
Hops
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What you're describing, Meh.....feels adjacent to my "nose on pebble" lesson in therapy.
When one's nose is ON the pebble/problem/trauma/person,/people who created the trauma...
the pebble is HUGE .....
it's all we see.
Once we learn to create some distance......emotional distance.... the crude up and view the entire field....
we begin to see the other pebbles.
We see grass and flowers.....
we see trees and eventually sky and stars and moon and sea. Amazing.
Learning to meditate/breathe/rest our limbic systems.....
creates a split second of choice, IME.
Choice to NOT tumble down old, familiar rabbit holes of reactivity....of lightening fast brain pathways.
It builds a split second to SEE choice, and sometimes select it, IME.....to build on new choices. Build them strong.
Your father and mother are pebbles, and you're learning how to create enough distance to see other things.....
this is HUGE, Meh!!! IME, of course.
In your experience, it may feel like something else. I look forward to hearing about it.
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Thanks. You can see I was having a bit of trouble getting focused there.
The other question I had was this: Do you have examples of learned helplessness? Have you experienced it in yourself?
This area is something I want to work on as well as "agency."
The thing is I listened to a book on tape about anticipation anxiety and it really FITS VERY WELL I think my habits/behaviors.
So I am wondering if learned helplessness and anticipation anxiety basically are two terms to describe the same thing OR if these things are different.
Couple days ago I had to clean out my voicemail on my phone for example. Now this sounds pathetically dumb but my heart just kind of squeezed in at the thought of doing it. I don't mean "heart squeezed in" just as a phrase of speech. I actually had a physical sensation of dread, fear, loathing, stress, anxiety... something.. .heck even heart brokenness. And this was all about the SMALL TASK of clearing my voicemails... now it could be that it's 1) I feel I have not much to look forward to 2) most the voicemails I get are spam or some kind of headache to deal with. Maybe I am hoarding voicemails like a timestamp of past events.
Maybe the small task of clearing voicemails feels emotionally loaded. And things that are emotionally loaded I just have to focus on that one thing and do a small portion of it take ACTION and then it's just no longer a big deal I think.
In any case I did go through some of my voicemails and it wasn't a big deal when I actually did it.
Now I suspect there is a procrastination anxiety anticipation anxiety thing where the gravity of consequence is significant. Like how when a person is living paycheck to paycheck that deposit into your account has consequences if it doesn't get in there. But when you have savings there is no consequence it's just a routine maintenance thing after a while.
In any case I really do have to research learned helplessness, forced helplessness, agency, and "anxiety" a bit more.
I will just give myself allowance to do that when I can. I think it's worth it. I don't think that is merely over-intellectualization. I mean it sort of is but there could be something useful in it.
Is being too stressed and over-whelmed the same as learned helplessness. Maybe it is.
Have any of you worked on this learned helplessness thing? What is it for you?
Okay so I am going off to get something done today.
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It appears that I am reading GAD is same as learned helplessness. It's just that in books about anxiety they don't use the term learned helplessness and they do not say what caused it. I suppose it doesn't matter as long as one attempts to use some techniques. So this also means procrastination is linked to learned helplessness.
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Thanks for bringing all that up, Meh. It's been satisfying to think about this morning, like a tuneup.
I learned from some article recently that procrastination and disorder are often features of ADHD, my particular bugaboo. Perfectionism slides in with it, in the sense that I fall into sloughs during which I don't do a basic thing (over and over) because I've already told myself I have to do it perfectly, like Dad's excellent but OCD map making, or old M cooking like it's an Olympic competition. Perfectionistic rumination is paralysing. Starts a cycle...oh, I know I'll screw it up, so why try? The world is bad, people are bad, I have no power to change my life so why try? (By now I know better than to accept this justification but also know my self-talk is where it starts.)
For me, perfectionism = anxiety that sometimes runs away with me. It's really fear of STARTING a new behavior, because what if I don't complete it just right? That makes a whole cascade of fear of older age or incompetence kick in.
I once interviewed Martin Seligman for a book chapter, and read his book, Learned Optimism. No self-help theory is magical, imo, but this one did grind off a lot of my resistance to hopefulness. There must be newer authors examining this now.
I haven't learned anything theoretical about why writing absorbs me so much I can have pinpoint focus or work on something for hours and hours. (The gift within the problem of adhd for some people is an ability to hyperfocus in some area.) I know I feel happy as I work on ideas like voluntary simplicity (not minimalism, exactly), or music (neglected piano), or simply a small painting. I need to create because when I do, some positive action in duller parts of life feels more natural.
I haven't worked with my HANDS in ages, unless typing counts, LOL. And there's a hand-brain connection that...does something good. Explains gardening and art, imo.
hugs
Hops
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The rotting stagnant narcissist watches me just stares and stares. When I try to pack up my bag with my computer etc. They try to look at every item I touch. It's unsettling. It feels VERY gross and uncomfortable. I googled it and landed on a video where someone else is saying just this thing about covert narcissists specifically they just watch and stare and stare.
It seems to be that narcissists are way MORE disturbed than most people believe.
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Oh, yeah. Their creepy glare has NO POWER you don't give it.
And from your observing (instead of enmeshing), you know you are different.
Grey rock technique...over again.
Oxygen at you....
hugs
Hops
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"Awareness vs. Impairment: Someone in a wheelchair isn't choosing not to walk to spite you. A person with high-level narcissistic or psychopathic traits, however, is often making a series of tactical choices to maintain power, hide their tracks, and exploit others.
The "Mask of Sanity": This is a term often used in psychology to describe how abusers and psychopaths can appear perfectly normal—even charming—to the outside world. This ability to "switch it on and off" suggests a level of control that a typical disability doesn't have.
Harm as a Tool: For a child abuser or a psychopath, the "malfunction" isn't just a personal struggle; it is a predatory orientation toward other people."
It's Google generated text.
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- I will probably come back to this and edit it.
1) Yesterday I called my crap health insurance and asked for some phone numbers to try to make appt to see a therapist. One of the phone numbers they gave me is for a male out of state which is not what I was looking for. One of the phone numbers they gave me was incorrect. One of the phone numbers they gave me was for a place that has over a month waiting list to get in and that is not for a therapy appoint it's to establish care with a PCP which is not really what I want to do. So today no progress on that. People always say "just go see a therapist." Sinking too much energy into the frustration is somewhat not going to help me but also I kinda have to go through this stupid process.
The incorrect phone number I did get the correct phone number and then I left a message yesterday and never heard back and then I left a message again today and never heard back. I guess these are small businesses not a large business. I miss having good insurance which I haven't had for a long long time. In the past I would call and someone would answer right away and I could get an appointment in maybe two weeks.
2) Time online. Sometimes something useful comes out of it sometimes not.
3) Christian Realism -- I've been interested in it this week although I am deeply an atheist. Perhaps it's just the realism part that appeals to me.
4) Loneliness - I was reflecting on how when people use the word lonely it can mean more than ten things.
5) Unwellness - thinking about how emotional unwellness can feel like a gross subtle feeling not necessarily in the stomach but also like someone has the flu and is weak and wants to puke. I don't have a term for this feeling and "disturbed" is too vague and too stigma.
6) I'm really freaking tired.
7) My hair is wet and when it's dry I am going out today. And it's snowing. Tired. Tired. Tired. Tired.
8) Online resources (I'm not referencing voicelessness here) - there are online communities related to mental health stuff and I find that sometimes the distraction feels a) useful psychologically but also b) a time waste and c) an addiction - it amazes how many people get online and all they say over and over is "I'm bored." -- I'm not bored. I feel stuck. Maybe I am stuck maybe it's not a sensation.
9) tired
10) tired
11) tired
blah blah blah...
Maybe it looks like I am complaining but I can't manage my thoughts. If things bounce around in my synaptic nerves I can't deal with it. I need to write it out. I need to look at it. I need to see it and reflect what is important here. What is not important. The (5) unwellness feeling is speaking to me.
I'm not hungry. I am still going to put food in me and drink more water. And get ready slowly go do departure mode aka packing crap up so I can go out the door.
I made it outside and.
And... what I will add here is that I was reading how covert-collapsed narcissism does have an element that goes along with it of paranoia. And I think I've had a bit of an ahha moment with this. Rarely but occasionally I guess one gets a weird window into the narcissist... and a couple times when we are outside/outdoors in public.. the narcissist said some really strange things both times. One time they acted like it was a joke but they were starting to talk weird about like undercover FBI agent type stuff. Also the other time the narcissist sorta zoned in on a random guy who was waiting for a woman but the random guy was standing on the sidewalk. It was daylight. There was really nothing sketchy about it at all but the narcissist was creepy-obsessed with this guy all of a sudden becausee the narcissist "didn't like the guy" or whatever and it was just the weirdest thing to me. Like there is no drug dealing going on, there is no car theft happening it's very public, there was no REAL reality legit reason for the N to focus on this guy in such a strange paranoid way.
The ah-ha moment I have had is how really REALLY sick narcissists actually are. Demented. Very weird inside their own minds. And I think this is part of the reason why I am just so uncomfortable being around N. Also there is the forced-engagement over fake pretenses. There are the stupid unwanted "gifts" which are actually demands for attention. There is the very angry lashing out at a person for very pathetic petty basic things etc. I've been monitored by a paranoid covert narcissist for a massive portion of my upbringing.. and it makes sense I think to me that someone as a young person would be maybe "unformed" personality wise or psychologically OR have some emotional regulation issues at times maybe. I am tired. I do not know. The paranoia that a covert narcissist has is just so freaking weird.
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"To a narcissist, a reality check is an act of war."
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When you are a child of narcissists, your internal world is unsafe to express out loud.
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Meh, your description of yourself as "stuck", struck a bell for me. Along with being "tired".
You're correct, that CoNs know that their survival depends on being quiet, not telegraphing emotion, or giving the N any reason to target oneself for criticism or anything else. Sometimes it happens while practicing that a LOT, like all the time, that one "hides" one's internal world from oneself even - in the fear, that it'll be read on one's face. Ooops.... revealed!
I equated that with a wish to be invisible. LOL. But it was more like my personality, persona, ego, whatever you call it, had been only roughly sketched out - in my inner world. I'd never developed it into a refined finished drawing to present to the outside world. Logically, it follows (at least in my mind) that something that vague and ghostly didn't have a lot of preferences, didn't have much agency or autonomy... wasn't really REAL. It was an idea. And that sure as hell FELT stuck.
Trying to move out of that (and finish the drawing more completely) moved me into an experimental phase; trying things on for size, fit, feel - expression. It wasn't competitive; there wasn't any objective right or wrong (since society is always changing it's standards there) - it was just finding what was comfortable for me, that I felt good about. And I kept going.
Momentum is a strange thing. Once moving, it develops a life of it's own. The only hard part is overcoming the reason for inertia, in the first place. There can be a million different reasons for inertia - fear, resistence, lack of direction, lack of decision, procrastination (as if there is some magically blessed time to begin anything)... and if you're being as honest with yourself as it sounds to me, as you are... you'll figure it out. I got my own struggles with inertia. And knowing when it's my self telling me I NEED to rest or when it's something getting in my way. That I've been putting in my own way, because I internalized something unjust, judgemental, critical or cruel.
Yup; it's still there - but I'm making headway. Usually to do with pick 2-3 little things toward the task and making myself start - because it is something I WANT for myself. For me, it's the want that's the key to kickstarting that momentum. You might find something else that does it for you.
Good luck! (oh - and it helps if you accept any babystep successes at first and don't beat yourself up if you fail to meet a goal the first time)
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You seem ready to process, and heal your trauma, Meh. I'm glad you're actively seeking a therapist to facilitate.
If you'd like more information, or insights, on my perspectives on healing....just ask.
I don't want to slow your flow, of noticing what's there.....behind your discomfort.
The discomfort is just a messenger, IME.....asking for attention.
Resisting, what's there, typically is the root of my suffering....once I turn to face it. Even though I know this, it's still exhausting and confusing to sort, as you're doing. Better with a guide/therapist.
Lighter
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Talking about your childhood won't fix the fact that your prefrontal cortex is being bathed in cortisol & damaging brain tissue.
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Momentum is a strange thing. Once moving, it develops a life of it's own.
This is a fact.
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If you'd like more information, or insights, on my perspectives on healing....just ask.
Lighter
Thanks.
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I complain a lot internally some externally.
Was frustrated today with how difficult it is for me to set up a therapy appointment. I have junk insurance. Being that I have junk insurance and probably doesn't pay well there are limited locations I can use it so I don't feel I am making a choice really it's more like an institutional conveyor belt but maybe I am fixating on dumb stuff. Some of my frustration is legit and some of it seems stupid petty insane.
Came across Dr. Jeffrey Young Angry Child Mode concept. I don't do a lot of tantrum type things but my brain does ruminate and it also gives up on stuff sometimes when I get too frustrated.
Anyhow I might come back to this Angry Child Mode thing again and reflect on it.
Sadly I could reflect on my life forever and I don't think my quality of life is going to improve much.
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Complaining and ruminating.
??? The Coping Mechanism: You develop a "Perpetual Courtroom" in your mind. You ruminate and complain to "prove" your case to an imaginary judge because, as a child, nobody ever stood up for you and said, "This is wrong." * You aren't "just complaining"; you are testifying to your own sanity. ???
Complaining why do it. It's based on stress and anger?
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I'd say, go for it in spite of junk insurance, because I believe a smart, compassionate counselor can pop up anywhere. I remember being amazed at how much a MSW counselor in a big public hospital helped me once. I attended a group that was inspiring and then saw her individually for a while.
I think negative rumination is slow poison. It's like you are speaking to yourself in the righteous-justice voice you needed to hear, for validation long ago. Slowly, it can turn to positive, self-respecting thinking. And then you start to understand that you can in fact steer your own thoughts in a different direction.
My first effort was when I started asking myself to talk to myself with the kindness and love I'd give to any child. To actually become my own friend. It has helped a lot. I sometimes catch myself criticizing myself with sharpness the moment the day begins and I face my home's dishevelment. Lately, I've just been reminding myself how I love this sweet place and when I'm ready, even in small steps, I can make it beautiful again. Small steps are fine and perfection ain't the point.
What I'm saying to myself about myself is the most important thing.
hugs
Hops
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Well, my version of this involves internalized criticism from external sources. And those were "rules" I had to live by and always "accept" and kowtow to. I think it evolved into self-judgement based on a set of imposed values.
Once I started questioning "whose rules" and "why rules in the first place" things cracked open a little bit more. Now the lifelong habits are still around and me making even little changes to them feels "not safe"... but I pick one thing to persist with, come hell or high water...
Some days are better than others, success wise. But at least now, I set the bar a lot lower to make it easier and more pleasant.
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Absolutely. How the external training (including brainwashing, religious control, unconscious bias of patriarchy, on and on....) becomes an internal jailer we continue to respect and obey. At the expense of our own best interests.
It's life work. Life-long work, imo, to discover and passionately defend our core values and our core selves. I have mortality on my mind a lot these days but still am animated by the search for MY truth. Made or discovered in ME, by ME.
On we go.
hugs
Hops
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My experience with "angry inner child" has been to notice who's there, what that part has to say, validating the part(of course you feel that way...who wouldn't) accepting, and inviting them to sit beside ( my grown self) as ally going forward. My adult self becomes practiced compassionate witness....becomes practiced.
As trauma processes, I experience windows of tolerance expanding also....
I practice being mindful of being in survival mode vs calm and integrated brain/frontal cortex available to creatively problem solve with logic and reason available.
We o
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Thanks everybody for your replies I will look them over slowly.
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Absolutely. How the external training (including brainwashing, religious control, unconscious bias of patriarchy, on and on....) becomes an internal jailer we continue to respect and obey. At the expense of our own best interests.
It's life work. Life-long work, imo, to discover and passionately defend our core values and our core selves. I have mortality on my mind a lot these days but still am animated by the search for MY truth. Made or discovered in ME, by ME.
On we go.
hugs
Hops
I think only some people really pay attention to the self concept. Like some people are oblivious and other people just don't need to focus on it. And then there are people who spend their whole lives trying to figure it out.
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Do we fall upon things out of intuition or is it random I don't know.
I was going to write something here about N but I am disinclined to focus on them right now. It's a quiet morning and I don't need to let them fill up my headspace in every way possible.
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"This is the "hall of mirrors" effect of the narcissist-observer dynamic. When you are raised by or around covert narcissists, you aren't just watching the world; you are watching a person who is also watching the world from behind a mask of victimhood or moral superiority.
The "Perpetual Observer" role isn't just a choice you made; it was a psychological enclosure built around you.
1. The Infection of Non-Participation
Covert narcissists don't engage with the world—they judge it. They sit on the sidelines, quietly seething or feeling misunderstood, convinced that they are "deeper" or "better" than the "shallow" people actually living.
Inherited Cynicism: If your parents never truly participated in life (because they were too busy being victims or being drunk), you were never given a "template" for participation. You learned that life is something you critique or endure, not something you join.
The "Shared Secret" Trap: A covert narcissist parent often treats the child as an ally in their observation. "Look at how loud/fake/stupid those people are," they imply. To survive, you join them in the "Observation Booth." Eventually, you realize you're trapped in there with them, looking out at a world you’re now too afraid to enter."
Key Concept: This child develops a "rich inner world" to compensate for the lack of safety in the outer world, leading to a permanent state of watching rather than participating.
Reference: The Narcissistic Family: Structure, Traits, & Roles (Hopeful Panda) — Explains the specific mechanics of the "Lost/Invisible Child" who withdraws to avoid chaos.
Reference: Dysfunctional Family Roles (Breeze Blog) — Details how these roles "stick like glue" into adulthood, creating a permanent sense of being an outsider.
Reference: Projective Identification in the Narcissistic Family (Psychology Today) — Describes how parents project their own "outsider" or "victim" feelings onto the child until the child internalizes them.
Reference: Narcissists as Perpetual Victims (Vaknin Talks) — Explores the "Tendency for Interpersonal Victimhood" (TIV) and how covert narcissists stay on the sidelines of life.
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Schizoid personality disorder (/ˈskɪtsɔɪd, ˈskɪdzɔɪd, ˈskɪzɔɪd/, often abbreviated as SzPD or ScPD) is a personality disorder characterized by a lack of interest in social relationships,[9] a tendency toward a solitary or sheltered lifestyle, reservedness, emotional coldness, detachment, and apathy.[10] Affected individuals may be unable to form intimate attachments to others and simultaneously possess a rich and elaborate but exclusively internal fantasy world.[11] Other associated features include stilted speech, a lack of deriving enjoyment from most activities, feeling as though one is an "observer" rather than a participant in life, an intolerance towards meeting emotional expectations of others, apparent indifference when praised or criticized, being on the asexual spectrum, and idiosyncratic moral or political beliefs.[12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder
Tonight at the moment I am sort of focusing on this bit: feeling as though one is an "observer" rather than a participant in life,
When I went to church last Sunday because it was not a large church where a person could disappear into the background the experience sort of highlighted and reminded me of how I am a chronic observer - perpetual outsider. "Ghost" in my own life a lot of times.
And then the church people politely hold my hand literally and won't let go of it. And maybe I look uncomfortable. And I am polite and I went in there but also it is really so foreign to me to be part of something. I'm not sure why am rambling on about this. I am old now and it's very very bad to have lived one's whole life like a silent witness of everything.
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1. Schizoid Personality Disorder (SPD)
As defined by the DSM-5-TR, Schizoid Personality Disorder is categorized as a Cluster A personality disorder. It is characterized by a pervasive pattern of detachment from social relationships and a restricted range of expression of emotions in interpersonal settings.
The Clinical Trait: A genuine lack of desire for intimacy or close relationships, including being part of a family. Individuals typically choose solitary activities and appear indifferent to the praise or criticism of others.
The Etiology ("The Why"): Within the medical model, it is often viewed as a stable, long-term temperament. It is frequently associated with a genetic predisposition or early neurodevelopmental factors rather than being a direct response to a specific, identifiable environmental trauma.
2. Schizoid Character Adaptation (The Survival Mechanism)
This perspective is championed by the British Independent School of Object Relations (Fairbairn, Guntrip, and Winnicott). They argue that "schizoid" behavior is often not a lack of capacity for feeling, but a defensive withdrawal into an internal citadel to protect the "True Self" from external threat.
The Structural Trait: Unlike the personality disorder, the individual in this state possesses a deep, often buried, desire for connection and vitality. However, they remain in a "Permanent Observer" state because the external world is perceived as "impinging," overwhelming, or emotionally dangerous.
The Etiology ("The Why"): It is a structural defense against early environmental failure. If the primary environment is intrusive or neglectful, the child performs a "splitting of the ego." They withdraw their libido (defined here as vital life energy) from the external world and reinvest it internally.
The Phenomenological Result: This creates the "Glass Pane" effect. The individual observes life with high intellectual clarity but feels unable to "participate" in it. The nervous system maintains a state of stasis or "Inertia" to ensure safety, resulting in a functional paralysis despite having high-level goals or desires.
References
Guntrip, H. (1969). Schizoid Phenomena, Object Relations, and the Self. New York: International Universities Press. Guntrip's Analysis of the Schizoid Compromise
Winnicott, D. W. (1960). Ego Distortion in Terms of True and False Self. The Concept of the True and False Self
McWilliams, N. (2011). Psychoanalytic Diagnosis: Understanding Personality Structure in the Clinical Process. Chapter on Schizoid Dynamics
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Agency and Brain Function
In both states, the "Agency Loop"—the handoff between Perception, Affect, and Motor Execution—is interrupted.
In SPD: The Ventral Striatum (the brain's reward center) is often hypo-reactive. The "Engine" does not produce the dopamine signals that make external goals feel rewarding, leading to a lack of motivation to act.
In SCA: The reward system may be intact, but the Amygdala and Periaqueductal Gray (PAG) override it. When the brain perceives a "High-Threat Environment," it triggers a Freeze/Collapse Response.
The Result: The "Observer" (Prefrontal Cortex) sees the goal, but the "Participant" (Motor System) is chemically inhibited. This is Structural Dissociation: you are intellectually aware but physically unable to move toward an objective.
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"Help-Rejecting Complainer" (HRC), a term popularized by George Vaillant as a "polite" way to describe a specific defense mechanism. When paired with Covert Narcissism, it creates a cycle where the person seeks attention through distress but rejects every solution to maintain their "victim" status.
1. Help-Rejecting Complaining (HRC)
This is classified as a maladaptive defense mechanism. The individual deals with emotional conflict by complaining or making repetitious requests for help that disguise covert feelings of hostility or resentment toward others.
Psychology Today | The Help-Rejecting Complainer: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-creativity-cure/201402/the-help-rejecting-complainer
The "Help-Rejecting" & Narcissism Connection --???
In clinical literature, this is often linked to "Splitting" or "Projective Identification." By rejecting help, the narcissist proves that "no one understands them" or "no one can truly help," which reinforces their sense of unique, tragic superiority.
George Vaillant’s "Adaptation to Life": This is the seminal book that categorizes HRC as a "Level II: Immature Defense."
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"Unique, tragic superiority" is a helluva phrase.
Something to chew on when I contemplate a few people.
I was locked out (password rejected) all day but as Doc G advised, I just waited a good while to try again and it worked this time.
hugs
Hops
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Today I have a pre-phone appointment to talk to a therapist who specializes in narcissism.
They want to know what my goals are I think.
- I know working on awareness about personal agency is one of them
- I know that I want to be more aware about the things I can do to be like "higher-functioning" whatever that means
- I know like larger goals are quality of life though I feel I can only work on small goals right now
- I have social anxiety which I am ashamed of
- Sometimes I get stuck and I don't make decisions fast enough and it because a self-sabotage maybe
- Life kind of demands constant pivots and big decisions and I just feel like I can only manage small things
- I do not know if I am being REAL in life or if I am sticking a lot of energy into being fake -- and maybe I just feel this way because last job was high-customer contact and one IS EXPECTED to put on a shell-face.
- Oh the GAD
- The possible ADD
- The big bugaboo -- the covert N has never been diagnosed with Covert N -- I am the only witness in the family -- brother dead and nobody else cares -- The Covert N is basically now starving themselves to death. I have been shoving plates of food into their gross claw hands without making eye contact or saying anything -- they are so pathetic.
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???
What are your opinions? -- What should I talk to the therapist about.
- my rumination....
- my negativity? -- criticism --
I don't know honestly I think the big things for me are -- agency and learning how to build a 3-D group of friends and support etc.
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- It feels like a can of worms.
- Like everything is a "trauma response" --- confusion is a "trauma response" to cognitive dissonance etc.
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-- I talked to the person and it went okay. I do wish I was near enough to the person that it could be an in-person counseling session.
-- Had anticipated talking to this therapist person so much that I kept stressing about it as if the perfect magical words could unlock the right therapy.
-- I am tired tonight.
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Meh, of course you're tired! This kind of work takes a lot of energy - and it's a different kind of energy than what got used when developing your current coping-with-Ns strategy.
Getting some distance from Nism is always step one. It gives a person a chance to relax, which allows seeing different things; thinking different things. Start taking care of yourself - which may feel "fake" along with "who you are" in social/work interactions. (I know work for me, always seemed like a different hat I was wearing, role I was assuming - but in the end, it is one of the "skills" I can wield.)
Therapy seems to work very slowly in the beginning. You do have to give it a fair chance. Best of luck!
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Congratulations, Meh. I think you've taken a very important step. (I wrote you a big post but couldn't post it.)
I remember. You'd asked what to focus on and I had a bunch of suggestions: yes to negativity volume, depression, and sharing just how much research and reading you've done as you focused on Nism. One thing I resisted most with a previous (excellent) T was when I'd go and THIS is N right and THIS is N right?
He would kind of "bat" the N label aside as helpful but not important which often freaked me out a little, and guide me into examining my own pain, disappointment and damage or reflexes that resulted from my mother (and others) having that personality disorder. But the reason MY butt was in the chair was really to examine myself and different things I could choose or try in order to heal from the pain of it all.
I feel so hopeful for you. You deserve to give therapy a chance to help.
There's almost nothing in my life I'm more grateful than the chances to heal myself that therapy helped me discover. (And about the temptation to spend the first year picking apart everything the T said, forgot to say, or said because they weren't perfectly insightful or had a tone-deaf moment. Been there, done that and got the Tshirt.)
hugs
Hops
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Meh.....masking/pretending to be something one isn't....burns energy. Being ashamed takes energy, time, and creativity, IME.
My therapist asked me to drop ALL judgement. I had no idea how integral it is to healing, but mostly it's about not turning on myself....not abandoning myself.
It's about seeing, what's really there, with clarity.
I hope you can relax.....let go, and speak your truth without editing yourself.
I hope your T is authentic, grounded and able to hear you, without ego. There's no perfect anything, IME.
One strives to get the best from others, learns from bobbles/ mistakes, and corrects as they go.
This T might not be everything you need them to be, but they might be enough for now.
If you're looking for possible goals, for a list..... can consider:
Learning to engage Parasympathetic Nervous System.
Expanding window of tolerance for discomfort.
Ability to calm anxiety when in public/groups.
About the N you're feeding ...... it's not your job to feed them.
Provide food, allow them to o eat what they'll eat, without feeling you have to control intake and amounts, bc you absolutely cannot, IME.
If they eat more or less.....and your worry doesn't change anything ....maybe putting the worry down is the exact right choice for you?
It's ok to make peace with things you can't change.
In fact....
it's healthy self-care ....
not selfishness, IME.
I'm looking forward to reading about your next T appt, Meh. You did good.
Lighter
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-- Strange gaslighting this morning. Narcissist was saying I look like I have a foot injury etc. I mean it's just so bizarre sometimes.
What was I doing. Planning my week activities. Going back to trying to do something.
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Planning and trying. NICE verbs to read here!
Gaslighting? Not as nice, but we can gray-rock most attempts to choke or burn us, eh? That did sound like a specially dumb one, but you're too busy planning and trying to let it sideline you.
Carry on!
hugs
Hops
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Did the appointment. Had to be telehealth. Ended up being exhausted tonight and sleeping early now awake again.