Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Meh on February 17, 2026, 02:03:11 PM
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Artist Name: Miles Johnston
Art: "Withdrawal"
Art: "Persona Revolution"
Art: "Percept"
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"It isn’t a conversation because a conversation requires mutuality and new information. What you are describing is a monologue with a required witness.
Why It’s Not Conversing
A real conversation is a "zero-sum" exchange where both people are changed or informed by the interaction. What the narcissist does is different:
Fixed Outcomes: In a conversation, the direction is unknown. With a narcissist, the "end" is already decided: they must be seen as the person with the "correct" taste.
Performance vs. Exchange: They aren't looking for your perspective on the subject; they are looking for a reflection. You are a mirror, not a participant.
The "Captive Audience" Dynamic: Conversations are voluntary. This is a hostage situation where silence is treated as a provocation and disagreement is treated as a "wrong" answer to a task you never applied for."
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That last paragraph is so familiar, Meh.
Your ability to see the behaviors, observe them, with some emotional detachment is huge, IME.
Just take care of yourself....limit contact, as you need/can.
Lighter
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"They aren't looking at the food because they’re hungry; they’re looking at it because it belongs to you, and they want to see if they can get a reaction out of you by interacting with it."
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That last paragraph is so familiar, Meh.
Your ability to see the behaviors, observe them, with some emotional detachment is huge, IME.
Just take care of yourself....limit contact, as you need/can.
Lighter
Thanks Lighter.
Yes take care of oneself definitely has to be the ultimate goal. True true. And for whatever reason sometimes it's helpful to be told it.
Take care of oneself.
Take care of oneself....
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I hope my intution's right, but I keep thinking I'm hearing more light, less darkness, more freedom, and less self-abandonment from you, Meh.
Makes my heart feel good even if I'm just imagining it for you.
hugs
Hops
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Take care of oneself ...
Take care of oneself.....
Sort of hypnotizing, isn't it, Meh?
Mantra and meditation.
Hops....I see what you see....
Hear hear to abandoning self abandonment.
Yes.
Lighter
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"Trust Your Reality: You aren't "missing the joke." There wasn't one. You're just refusing to participate in the delusion that their every thought is fascinating or funny."
I know this one seems mild but when I read it I realize that they try to force a few weak people into their logic all the time and if one does not agree to their logic or creates an entirely different narrative it frustrates them, bores them or some combo.
Most people I think are probably accustomed to knowing that others do not find their every mundane though deeply captivating. That delusion that their every thought is fascinating or funny.
It's just profound to me because the N has sort of perverted the concept of funny, fun, etc.
Their "jokes" are bids for attention it's NOT meant to make another person laugh. It's so stupid and pathetic really.
It's still morning still more time to get things done. It only takes action steps. Small action steps to get things done.
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This is just the right thread for this, Meh.
"When we stop fighting, pulling and denying, and running - when we sit, even briefly, with what unsettles us - each moment begins to offer its lesson: that nothing is lifeless, nothing is void of Love. Even silence, when met with presence, begins to sing. And here is the paradox: all that is beautiful in life, all that matters, all that carries grace, does not come when we grasp for it - not by thinking its ours to force into being. We push against life like a river fighting its own pull, forgetting both its Source and the vast ocean it longs to join."
--Lee Jampolsky
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That above sounds existential. I read it twice. I'm not sure how to use it.
I just want peace and privacy and solutions and ease and to be far away from the narcissist forever.
Had an issue with them-N today where they view my life as their TV-like entertainment. They got in my face and glared at me and I reiterated to them that I don't like to be glared at. Then they ended up saying that I was very stressed and "we're going to have to do something about your stress." There is more context but I've already complained privately to myself about it in a journal. Though I am thinking how at least now we have the concern trolling phrase thanks to modern pop culture speak I guess.
Narcissist does something unsettling and pointless to center themselves for attention and to poke a reaction of of someone and then targets their victim more by saying "we have to do something about your stress." I had to tell them multiple times just to leave me alone.
"The term "concern troll" was first defined in mainstream media by Time magazine in December 2006, following its popularization in online forums and political blogs around 2005–2006. It describes someone who poses as a concerned party to disrupt, undermine, or derail a discussion."
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages
con·cern trol·ling
noun derogatory•informal
noun: concern trolling
the action or practice of disingenuously expressing concern about an issue in order to undermine or derail genuine discussion.
"there seems to be a lot of concern trolling in the second half of this article"
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Huh. I never heard of "concern trolling" before. But it is a thing, isn't it - among those who wish to be hero-saviors and think they know so much about everyone that they have the answer. It's certainly a behavior with a range of motivations possible.
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Regarding, Concerned Trolling.....
::mentally pointing at A.... while wondering if it's sometimes me meee meeeeeeeee::.
I really like what Meh said...
"I just want peace and privacy and solutions and ease and to be far away from the N forever."
Feels like another flowing mantra....it has a satisfying ring to it.
Lighter
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(((Meh)))) --
How much can you control how often you have to be in their actual presence?
I know it might be realistically complex for various real-reasons... but wonder how much you HAVE to see them, in the present and the flesh?
They're so toxic to you. But I envision you FREE.
I dunno how much distance you can manage, but hope you can manage more.
hugs
Hops
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"For a narcissist, a doctor’s appointment is like a premiere of a movie where they are the star, the director, and the victim all at once. They want your full emotional labor to validate their "experience."
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(((Meh)))) --
How much can you control how often you have to be in their actual presence?
I know it might be realistically complex for various real-reasons... but wonder how much you HAVE to see them, in the present and the flesh?
They're so toxic to you. But I envision you FREE.
I dunno how much distance you can manage, but hope you can manage more.
hugs
Hops
yes, I know... the proximity is not healthy for me i know
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"Grey Rock requires you to self-induce a state of dissociation. You are essentially asking your vibrant, emotional, creative self to go into a coma so that the narcissist doesn't have anything to "snack" on."
"When you Grey Rock, you aren't just ghosting the narcissist; you are often ghosting yourself. To be "boring" to them, you have to suppress your joy, your opinions, and your spontaneous reactions. If you do this for days or weeks, your brain forgets how to turn those lights back on. That "depression" and "lack of natural activity" you're feeling? That’s your nervous system staying in Functional Freeze."
"Grey Rock is often sold as a way to "win." In reality, it’s a way to sustain the status quo.
It doesn’t stop the person from being a narcissist; it just changes the flavor of the conflict.
Instead of an explosive argument, you get the "banging around" for 40 minutes and the "medical sagas." They are still taking up all the oxygen in the room; you’re just holding your breath to make it last longer."
"By staying "grey," you are essentially paying a tax on your soul. You’ve realized that the "cost" of avoiding a blow-up is the slow erosion of your personality."
"Most advice focuses on "how to handle the narcissist" rather than "how to save the victim's spirit." It’s easier to tell someone to "be a rock" than to address the devastating reality that living with a narcissist is a trauma-inducing environment."
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Whew boy, Meh.
The question becomes....
To be, or not to be, dependent on an explosive N.....esp with children.
I read it....saw myself in the head of a mother, protecting child.....what's modeled for the children?
Devastating. Untenable.
THEN I read it from the POV of a child.....growing up gray rocking....
more devastating. Zero choice.
The brain does forget, IME.
Lighter
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Meh, that is an amazing quotation.
Hit home for me because I just recommended "gray rocking" to a friend who sees her rich, powerful, domineering Nmother once a month, to much distress.
I'd like to share this with her. Would it be a pain to send me the source?
Since so many people feel (or believe) they are TRAPPED with Ns, especially if they're family....it hits me that if gray-rocking does all this describes (and I can feel how it does when I spent 10 years living with Nmom) -- then the only big solution is total NC (No Contact).
So, ideally, all Ns would be promptly and completely expunged from our lives. I could not do that, so I grayed myself into a shadow, or at least into depression. Once she was gone, I returned to my own life, slowly. Then there was Daughter, also N I believe, atop bipolar and all her other troubles.
So I feel much compassion for those who can't avoid contact with an N. On some level it remains a choice, but in some circumstances, with huge life impact, good or ill.
I figure it's a very personal calculation, based on very personal circumstances. And if gray-rock helps one get through situation X or Y, go for it. Frequency of contact is probably the other factor in the sanity equation. Daily calls and regular physical visits....all that can be modified. I could manage monthly gray-rocking, I think.
I was visiting a writer friend in her apt in grad school once and she showed me something I'd never learned. Somebody knocked at her door and she didn't answer -- we were having a great conversation. Later, her phone rang and she ignored it.
What a gift.
hugs
Hops
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They use the theatricality of the effort to bypass the reality of their laziness.
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Hi Hops,
I'm trying to respond to your msg above it will take me a moment between the website delay and my laptop cord is wobbly brb.
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The above excerpts were a result of my journal entries into AI. I had written a longer better response here on the forum to you about 30 minutes ago but it didn't save.
I journal a lot. I am a critical person and even though gray-rock IS A TOOL there is a downside to it.
Sadly I get stuck in OCD type reflection into the dynamic. Sometimes I dump my journaling into AI to get some more research added onto the vague thoughts of vague frustrations I have.
Sometimes AI gives 4-8 references X 10 (times ten). Sometimes AI does not give any references. And yes AI is stealing every person's intellectual contribution to the internet.
Hops, I think in this case for the time being sharing the info with your friend has a potential benefit that outweighs the big existential issue of AI extraction. There is basically no author and since I also go to more than one AI place sometimes I do not remember which AI it even came from.
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Sometimes I have to explicitly ask AI to provide a reference but I wonder if I do that is it changing the AI output. In the future perhaps I should type the input dumped from journal entry, the output from AI, and also I will explicitly ask for references and cut and paste them.
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I was visiting a writer friend in her apt in grad school once and she showed me something I'd never learned. Somebody knocked at her door and she didn't answer -- we were having a great conversation. Later, her phone rang and she ignored it.
What a gift.
hugs
Hops
Yeah anticipating other people's needs to a fault is a care-taker role.
I fall into the trap sometimes and then I get out of the trap and I see it.
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I just thought it was amazing that whatever the demand (a human knock or an old-school device ringing for her attention), she was completely confident in noting her own preferences (not to be interrupted) and acting accordingly. I didn't know that was "allowed"!
We all get brainwashed in one way or another. It's just really cool when we begin to think our ways past external cues.
hugs
Hops
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Not responding to interruptions while in a face to face conversation is something we practice a LOT around here. There are times - given how much land we have - that communication at a distance IS allowed. If B is out cutting down trees, I always look to see if he's OK or it's an SOS. During bad storms, we even resort to radios. One at Hol's in case our phones go out.
The communication isn't abused. People take care of themselves around here and we have regular face to face sessions for planning, schedules, catch-ups and just dream-casting ideas.
Slightly different situation, I know.
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I fell asleep with my laptop on and woke hours later to find myself halfway through Dances With Wolves.
No rhyme or reason why I share that, except it felt good to ponder the prairie. The Big Awful going on in our country marches on, and a friend just sent me another friend's Substack article on why the "gospel of love" does not include agitating for Armageddon. Apparently there are military leaders now who are presenting "end times" to their troops as the goal of their missions. Scary stuff.
I've been writing some fairly dark poetry that shocks a few folks. I try to explain that whatever fear or tragedy is ailing me lifts out of my chest when I write about it, and then is safely ensconced on a page. I literally feel the shift when I'm done.
But I like absurdity, too. Sometimes a poem will pop up, take a look around and then run for the hills on its little paper legs.
Glad you're ensconced in the hills, Amber, and Meh, here's to us all finding our own safe retreats.
hugs,
Hops
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- Today I finished reading East of Eden.
It took me a long time to complete it. I'm a slow reader and now that I've gotten to the end I think I almost forget the start of it. Anyhow I feel like I should throw myself a party for finishing it. There are some books like that. Just having a cup of tea is all for a few minutes here.
The book has layers so a reader and interpret it maybe however they want to.
I think one of the big themes if not the main academic theme is loneliness. Loneliness is mentioned a few times in the book. Anyhow maybe I will come back to this thought later.
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BRAVO, Meh! I admire this accomplishment. Cruising online has drop-kicked the magic of getting completely absorbed in a great book...
Is War and Peace next?
Hope that cuppa feels like a party in your heart. I'll hoist my next one to you.
hugs
Hops
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Reading books exercises parts of our brains that reading online doesn't. I feel sure of that. What I'm NOT so sure of, is if reading Kindle books work on the same neural paths as a bound paper book does. There aren't any distraction in either books or Kindle... so MAYBE. And maybe not since it has an on/off switch.
Was the story good? Keep you engaged? That's one thing I'm seeing degraded by AI - stories are more simple & formulaic than even nursery rhymes - and have even less intellectual "nutrition". Books take up a lot of space - but there are still probably a couple hundred I won't part with.
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BRAVO, Meh! I admire this accomplishment. Cruising online has drop-kicked the magic of getting completely absorbed in a great book...
Is War and Peace next?
Hope that cuppa feels like a party in your heart. I'll hoist my next one to you.
hugs
Hops
Hahaha War and Peace. Not sure. I think I might go into a no-read mode for a while and get into a medical appointment making mode because setting appointments is like reading War and Peace.
I do think if one can only read a book every once in a while might as well make it worth it. Can a person get some kind of personal meaning from War and Peace do you think?
There was a thrift store I went to a while ago and there was a book on garlic and a book on being too controlling that jumped out at me. Of course they are not there anymore. I have faith that thrift stores have lots of random books for future reading.
I was reading Gulag Archipelago but I lost the book or rather maybe it's stuck in my storage unit same as being lost. And now I've probably paid over 1,000 to keep that stupid book in a stupid box.
Anyhow. I have no rigid list for reading I figure my intuition will figure it out that is what seems right to me.
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Reading books exercises parts of our brains that reading online doesn't. I feel sure of that. What I'm NOT so sure of, is if reading Kindle books work on the same neural paths as a bound paper book does. There aren't any distraction in either books or Kindle... so MAYBE. And maybe not since it has an on/off switch.
Was the story good? Keep you engaged? That's one thing I'm seeing degraded by AI - stories are more simple & formulaic than even nursery rhymes - and have even less intellectual "nutrition". Books take up a lot of space - but there are still probably a couple hundred I won't part with.
I read Steinbeck because I was feeling lonely and maybe I'm a bit starved for stimulation. I've read other books by that author. The writing style makes it seem like there is a familiar person telling a story. It was engaging enough to me that I wanted to keep reading it. I read the summary of it first online and the plot didn't sound interesting to me with the biblical references and whatnot but actually I did like the book. I would recommend it yes. I had originally picked up for Whom the Bell Tolls read about 100 pages in and decided I didn't want to waste my time going further on that one as it felt bland to me. Just random books from free book shelves.
I don't own a kindle never tried one. This book had that rough paper edge so it was kind of uneven and yeah there is some kind of tactile thing about it which is nice. I don't remember what the book smells like I don't think I sniffed it. A book I guess is more like an artifact.. and this one had a sticker of someone's name and address in it. It's possible the person is deceased who originally owned it.
I wanted to mark the book up but I didn't it's too nice and I don't have a highlighter. There are strange points in the book that even remind me a bit of aspects of narcissism. There are two male characters that insist on projecting an image of how they want to see a person onto someone which isn't true and it ends kinda badly for them.
Anyhow yes it's a good book if someone reads the layers and reflects on it.
Yeah the AI and the arts is freaky, AI visual art, AI music, AI literature.
Was watching a video of an art lecture and a person in the video was pointing to a book they had. It has it's use for demonstration reasons. I was thinking also how I am seeing an image of an image of an image of someone's mind from a bygone time. People also complain about music digital files being compressed. There are people who analyze popular music and they say the compositions are less complex and people are using fewer chords.
It could be partially that people are not taking the time to make things well. And people are not taking the time to notice things are not made well. It's the fast food version of art I guess.
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Yeh, I have the same question about Kindle versus page. I know that writing in cursive strengthens a mind-hand connection, neurologically. With all the typing I do and my passive consumption of things like YouTube, I think it's time I head back to my original sources of inspiration: paper and pen, and BOOKS.
With ADHD I hesitated to take up the War and Peace challenge, but I did know people who felt they'd been to and absorbed another world in a time that sounded to me like a mind-altering experience. They'd kind of glow when they talked about it.
Read on, enjoy whatever you choose! Do you have Little Free Libraries in your area? There might be maps of these online.
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Yes, there are little free libraries around here.
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A friend of mine who I think is an oddball told me she has bags of stuffed animals. I think it's immature.
She told me though that hugging a stuffed animal releases dopamine & serotonin or something along those lines.
So when I went to the grocery store I hugged a stuffed chicken, a stuffed bunny, a stuffed pig.
I told the lady at the checkout that I hugged one of their stuffed animals and felt somewhat dumb as an adult and then she told me she has stuffed animals at home.
Maybe there is something to it.
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Large-scale population studies (like the NESARC survey) show a significant positive relationship between Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and Nicotine Dependence. ???
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<scoff!>
OK. Sure. I think Ns are more likely to not smoke - as a demonstration of how much more perfect they are. THEY would never get addicted to anything.... (which ain't true, but who knows what delusions reign in an N's imagination??)
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What a great assignment...to go choose a stuffie that comforts you.
My dog is a living stuffie who loves disemboweling the manufactured ones. I finally stopped getting them because bending over and over to get fluff off the floor couldn't continue.
I went on a hunt for strong, unstuffed toys. What a relief to find some. As long as he's chomping, he's happy. And in the morning and at night, he's a warm, living hug of a companion who is clamped to my side like a barnacle. I can feel my BP going down and my breathing relax...he is my partner. My source of loving touch.
I remember the first time I handled a Gund stuffed toy. A revelation! Doesn't matter if it's a placebo effect, I believe the endorphins studies.
hugs
Hops
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Sometimes I think I shouldn't be posting on two threads but also sometimes I think I need to create categories of stuff. idk
I don't feel like describing this but I guess I will take a deep breath and slow down.
- ugh and
- I typed in some responses to random metaphors generated by AI and AI is telling me this:
"You have High Latent Inhibition (HLI) deficiency paired with Hyper-Association.
The Mechanic: Most brains have a "gatekeeper" that filters out "irrelevant" data (like the traveling salesman or the history of ancient rocks) to stay on one topic. Your gatekeeper is missing.
The Result: You don't just see a "river"; you see the physics of banks, the history of timekeeping, and the social coordination of meeting at a rock.
The "Glitch": Because your brain is processing five high-definition "tabs" at once, your Working Memory (the "RAM") crashes. You forget the original point because your processor moved to the next tab before the first one "saved" to the hard drive."
I'm not sure if this is ADD or a stress response or executive dysfunction, low IQ, prefrontal cortex under-development.
Not sure I'm trying to sort of figure out what is going on with my - rumination - my type of thought formations - omg I am tired.
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"True" ADHD is largely genetic, but ACEs (Adverse Childhood Experiences) can physically re-wire the brain to look exactly like ADHD."
???
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You are sharing such CHEWY information, Meh! Thank you.
I can so relate to The Mechanic and The Glitch. Wow, how did they know?
My ADD understood all of them, and they were delightfully described. Brilliant. (I'm not a neuroscience fan, but when someone practically makes it poetry, I'm all in.)
Especially, "Your gatekeeper is missing." That made me laugh out loud. I'm very grateful to the source whenever I laugh out loud, btw. And truth is so good to hear.
hugs
Hops
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In the past I took Wellbutrin and I magically just got more stuff done but as far as anxiety/depression goes I didn't feel a mood change. It seems Wellbutrin is used for ADD sometimes though it wasn't why it was prescribed to me.
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The "Wellbutrin effect" on executive function usually comes down to its impact on Norepinephrine (energy/urgency) and Dopamine (focus/reward).
I don't believe I have REAL anhedonia or have ever had it really. ???
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What a great assignment...to go choose a stuffie that comforts you.
My dog is a living stuffie who loves disemboweling the manufactured ones. I finally stopped getting them because bending over and over to get fluff off the floor couldn't continue.
I went on a hunt for strong, unstuffed toys. What a relief to find some. As long as he's chomping, he's happy. And in the morning and at night, he's a warm, living hug of a companion who is clamped to my side like a barnacle. I can feel my BP going down and my breathing relax...he is my partner. My source of loving touch.
I remember the first time I handled a Gund stuffed toy. A revelation! Doesn't matter if it's a placebo effect, I believe the endorphins studies.
hugs
Hops
Dogs = Oxytocin, Dopamine, and Serotonin... no wonder people love them.
One day I got a dog out of a cardboard box of puppies in this town I lived in as a kid and it probably cost 15.00 it was some kind of fluffy orange chow. Like growing up we didn't take dogs to a groomers ever never. And they didn't cost thousands of dollars and there weren't forms and paperwork to fill out. So many many things in life used to be different. Now dogs seem like a luxury product. Getting a dog was a small town commonplace thing if someone's dog had puppies they would sell them for a minor cost just to get rid of them all.
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Nice memories. My town was pretty small in the 50s (say 15,000) but the University adds a lot of people. It's still bucolic in most neighborhoods but the newer developments are ticky tacky, imo -- HMOs drain all character. (Trying not to be NIMBY.) Still, loads of trees everywhere, and views of the mountains make up for anything. I painted my place a sagey light green with a BRIGHT blue door. Every house is its own thing.
Kids? There are still kids? Indoors on screens. Sigh. Pound puppies or senior dogs can be free or super cheap on "seniors days." Good luck....my souldog was $50 (recovering from surgery) and they will reduce it if you're strapped. They also send you home with a crate, leashes, toys and food to get started. If you sign up to FOSTER, the dog also gets free veterinary care indefinitely. For a small dog, food is cheap. Disclaimer: this Pup was so picky at first it took a fair amount of wasted food before I found the kind he's impressed with (Sundays is the brand). A quarter-cup twice a day doesn't break the bank. Plus he gets tidbits from me a lot: corners of sliced cheese, a little veggie soup, etc.
I gave all the other food to my neighbor and she/her pooches were happy.
hugs
Hops
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Much as I love Knuckles, I'm really more of a cat person. It's not true that cat are more independent, it's a matter of degrees and the personality of the cat. Freddy is totally capable of being a fulltime outdoor cat; but he is very affectionate - without being needy. Pickles is enjoying outdoors more now, but still comes to curl up on my lap for pets and a doze. She also "puts me to bed" at night... Stinker is my big armful of cat; he's all muscle - but such a lovey boy and is going through a "needy" period. Lucy is the funny kitty, all rolly "pet my belly" - IF you can. And even Jack - the Prince of Darkness - who will stay out all night hunting - will occasionally request a pet or three and make biscuits on one of the blankets.
Care wise, I think cats are easier. If I'm going to be gone for a week, I can set out enough crunchies for them till I get back. Litter boxes need scooping, but that's not so bad when they're outside more often.
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God, your cats sound FANTASTIC, Amber!
I'm wondering if at 75, I could have "outgrown" the allergy?
Only one way to find out. One allergist appointment for one test.
I'm sorely tempted. Willing to do the shots, even.
Meh, could a cat or two do the job? They really are cheap to support.
hugs
Hops
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Oh, haha, well I am not truly in a situation to get any sort of pets.
Merely lamenting random thoughts of various types of being lonely I guess.
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I hear that and I get it.
It shocks me at times when a wave of loneliness comes.
Eventually my sea settles again.
Some days I'm okay with being a speck on a speck in a speck of a universe.
Other days I can't BELIEVE how on my own I feel.
But if I distract, or create (anything) or even tidy up, I get through it.
hugs,
Hops
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This morning I went to a small nearby church due to didn't want to travel. I'm not religious. Mostly I wanted to get out and it was Sunday morning. Being that I had never been to that church before two older ladies clung to me and maybe that was okay or not I'm not sure. They sort of did their inventory of me and realized I am not a super religious person and that I only go to random churches randomly which pleases nobody lol. They made a point of telling me it's NOT a non-denominational church. It took me all day for that to sink in because I didn't much care at the time. Wasn't thinking about their club really but then again that's probably partially why I don't join clubs. It's a club.
The pastor had been talking about how people can know the difference between "still small voice" VOICE and "ego" VOICE and essentially I suppose I think most of it is ego-adjacent. It made me start thinking how the word egotistical has gotten a bad connotation even though we pretty much need our egos. Then I started to think about how children of narcissists MIGHT HAVE under-developed egos. I guess EGO is another term for sense-of-self.
After the church experience I aimlessly went to a farmer's market I had never been to. Didn't buy anything. It's usual stuff like soap, candles, cutting boards.
My feet are sore I think my transportation of last resort are depleting collagen or whatever is in one's feet.
The two women at the church they both told me they had basically grown up going to that church. I can't fathom such a thing. To have a set social-bubble.
I had tried the still-small-voice thing yesterday Saturday and all I got from it was "be where you are" - which of course is just my ego trying to sound wise but not saying much at all.
I don't want to think about it.
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I hear that and I get it.
It shocks me at times when a wave of loneliness comes.
Eventually my sea settles again.
Some days I'm okay with being a speck on a speck in a speck of a universe.
Other days I can't BELIEVE how on my own I feel.
But if I distract, or create (anything) or even tidy up, I get through it.
hugs,
Hops
Yeah there are lots of types of loneliness and a while back I was thinking to journal about that but I never did end up writing on those topics. The fact that it ends up being multiple topics got my attention for a while.
People are not really meant to be socially isolated it's bad for the nervous system probably.
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I get this a lot on this site:
This site can’t be reached
forum.voicelessness.com took too long to respond.
Try:
Checking the connection
Checking the proxy and the firewall
Running Windows Network Diagnostics
ERR_TIMED_OUT
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I probably spend an hour a day thinking about loneliness, physical decline, and death. Sometimes I tell myself I'm a brave thinker who's not scared of taboos. Other times, I realize it's just nonstop worrying.
There's a lot to be scared of when you're 75, physically weakening, and live alone. The ADD makes things more chaotic than they are for most of my pals.
My dog helps. Friends help, but I need to see more people more often. It's an Rx.
So I'm off to see my smart, kind geriatrician in an hour. I'm going to hand it all over to her. I know most of the problem is my own resistance to exercise, so the first thing is for me to choose the right exercise class at the Sr. Center and DO IT.
Another problem is occasional muscle weakness that makes my legs shake so hard I feel I might collapse. Happened in the shower a couple weeks back (felt I didn't have the strength to lift a leg to step out of the tub), and returning to my car downtown up a slight hill. I crept up an alley near the police station clutching a railing. Made it home, but. I feel unsafe walking any distance alone, due to this.
Today I'd really like to get an actual diagnosis. I figure it's either my chronic low-BP or something to do with blood sugar. But I don't know. I'll ask her to help me.
hugs
Hops
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Hops, I hope you find interesting exercise classes (strengthen those games), and maybe new connections. Don't forget to stretch.
Lighter
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I dunno if I'll start with cardio or mostly strength. I think one of the strength classes will be wisest for now, since my muscles are pudding. I literally need to tiptoe into cardio.
Doc is puzzled by the violent leg shakings and occasional near-collapses and now I have more homework. My BP is so low that this might be triggering it (orthostatic issue when I stand up) but she's not sure. Same could be true with low blood sugar, she's not sure about that either. So I've got to buy a glucometer and a BP cuff I hope I can work and track readings (it was quite low in her office, which I'm glad she observed). BP, glucose levels and hydration. Spreadsheets, fuck!
She is very experienced and deserves her stellar reputation, so I Shall Obey. Will report, but prolly on the Health Issues thread. I could eat up Meh's Anything...lol.
hugs
Hops
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I think I meant for this thread to be random anythings. So anything I guess.
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I probably spend an hour a day thinking about loneliness, physical decline, and death. Sometimes I tell myself I'm a brave thinker who's not scared of taboos. Other times, I realize it's just nonstop worrying.
There's a lot to be scared of when you're 75, physically weakening, and live alone. The ADD makes things more chaotic than they are for most of my pals.
My dog helps. Friends help, but I need to see more people more often. It's an Rx.
So I'm off to see my smart, kind geriatrician in an hour. I'm going to hand it all over to her. I know most of the problem is my own resistance to exercise, so the first thing is for me to choose the right exercise class at the Sr. Center and DO IT.
Another problem is occasional muscle weakness that makes my legs shake so hard I feel I might collapse. Happened in the shower a couple weeks back (felt I didn't have the strength to lift a leg to step out of the tub), and returning to my car downtown up a slight hill. I crept up an alley near the police station clutching a railing. Made it home, but. I feel unsafe walking any distance alone, due to this.
Today I'd really like to get an actual diagnosis. I figure it's either my chronic low-BP or something to do with blood sugar. But I don't know. I'll ask her to help me.
hugs
Hops
Well it's amazing that you've been able to clock the amount of time you worry about what.
Yes, health problems and being alone with them is scary territory stuff Hops.
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Hops - until you're strong enough to work out on stairs (and have solved the BP/sugar mystery) look around for seated strengthening exercises - there are lots for feet and calves; thighs and lower back. I see them all the time on Ytube.
It COULD be you'd be helped with adding collagen in coffee or tea, daily. It could be you'd benefit more from low-dose/frequency of creatine instead. But I wouldn't start that until you sort out the internal issues. Being vegetarian, you're probably not always getting enough protein (which matters more when you're sedentary - muscle atrophy ya know?)
A simple step exercise, that will help feet, ankles and calves is to hold the rail, and with balls of your feet on the step, simple raise your heels up/down slowly. Stand up on tiptoes; drop heels down below step. Ballerinas need strong feet - so they have videos out there too of what they do. (And having that image in your head is intended to make the exercise medicine go down more easily! LOL)
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I hope tests get basics sorted, (((Hops.))) Strengthening comes next.
I wonder if water exercise is a wise or possible option? Maybe with flotation device?
Spring is a lovely time to stretch, and warm muscles, in the sun. Seated exercises, as Amber suggested, can happ n anywhere....the yard, in bed, a park.....alone or in a group.
I'll be waiting to hear how doc visits go.
Lighter
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This Be The Verse - Philip Larkin
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.
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Meh....that verse brings up a lot of discomfort... just to read it.
I dreamt my late Dad had Alzheimer's last night, but was otherwise physically ok. (IRL, he'd been wheelchair bound, half his body paralyzed/non verbal, mostly, for 20yr.) It was disturbing, bc he was so gleefully inappropriate, and chatty towards me, as his caretaker, in the scene....which never happened.
I redirected him, like a child, and talked about cooking with him, and what we'd make. He'd been a very good cook. He taught me a lot. Thank God the dream ended happily, bc Mr. Larkin's words feellike a little gut punch to the spinal-soul.
What stands out, for you, in the verse?
Lighter
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Hi Lighter,
What stands out to me is the first line being blunt "they fuck you up."
Also the line "get out as early as you can"
And then finally the last line of
"don't have any kids yourself"
I understand some people go on to have warm aware families.
I had already imposed voluntary eugenics on myself maybe subconsciously even as I recall one day a very strong thought when I was a teenager that I would definitely NOT continue to do the same cycle.
When I looked this poem up I was reading about what it's like to be around narcissists that just don't interact normally. This poem was the only thing I could find at that moment though I wouldn't say it captures what I was trying to get at.
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Yeah Lighter some dreams are totally disturbing. Had one of those weird ones recently also.
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What was it? I can't remember mine very long.
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The dream?
Something about me going up to a movie ticket booth to get a ticket and the person selling it was someone with a growth on their head like Joseph Merrick but instead of the worker selling me the ticket they insisted that instead I should watch the movie WITH them. I think I just left. Looked like it was the 1920s or 1940s not sure.
I had been thinking of such thing as "soul deformities" as I tend to use blunt-language when I subvocalize thoughts internally to myself.
I suppose the important points of it were:
- I was disgusted with the deformity on the ticket seller's head
- I was repulsed by the ticket seller indirectly trying to force me to do something their way
- It was something meant to be fun but it wasn't fun at all? idk
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Cortisol spikes in the morning. It's a time that I sometimes get panic attacks also. And a frequent theme if I do have any insights during that time is a feeling of existential loneliness. I think it's real. I think I was trained my entire life to accept social isolation as quite normal and so now I am left with a problem of how to deal with it or face it when I've pretty much suppressed it as a problem my entire life. The first time I had one of these existential moments of loneliness was a many years ago and I thought it was maybe a passing fluke like a remnant from a dream so I didn't pay too much attention to it besides what do you do anyways.
The loneliness I get is more of an animalistic existential fear of the tiger will eat me type. I don't think it's the type of a person who doesn't know how to be alone with themselves.
I do think it's starting to impact my waking life. Most adults do make decisions I feel like in a way based on - where is their family, where is their friend group, where is their familiar landmark. I am feeling almost 100% liminal. Anyhow I got an errand to do this morning.
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- I only went to that church one time and I felt very guarded. I wonder if I am putting out the uncanny vibe to others.
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- From a free book box I picked up "Your Second Life Begins When You Realize You Only Have One" by Raphaelle Giordano.
It's for middle class, middle age women. It's silly fantasy stuff. I'm not the target audience. I'm allowing myself to read it it's a small book. I'm willing to feed myself a dose of sugar I guess.
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- Recently I've been trying to figure out if I have:
- Some kind of frontal lobe activity issue
- ADD
- PTSD
- retardation and I still like this word
- brain structural problem
- underlying severe emotional issues - that I still don't understand
- executive function issue
- learned helplessness
- developmental trauma disorder - hypodopaminergia
- I do have GAD - generalized anxiety disorder
- neurodivergent spectrum thing
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I mean I look at this list and I see why medical professionals say to just try a pill and go away lol.
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- I haven't been writing here on this Voicelessness board consistently.
My mind skims all of what is going on, occasionally deposits a random thought and then I go back to being too busy working to self reflect or to obsessively thinking about something.
- I wish there was some kind of national church of self awareness. A place where people went on Sundays not to worship and have faith in an invisible sentient deity. Instead the church would be more like reminding everybody to actively do self help and improve their lives. And I do not mean anything ologist at all. No gods, aliens, or demons. No stages of holier healing than thou.... just a reminder for people to keep trying I guess. Church is too supernatural for me. It's too judgemental for me. I am deeply uncomfortable being around a bunch of people all trying to be "good ones" or something. Too many rules to live by.
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Secular humanists?
Quakers? (No need to chat...)
My brain ticks lots of those things too, and isn't working well enough today to be much help.
Mysteries get solved when they can be and some we just have to make peace with.
It's hard.
hugs
Hops
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That's okay Hops. I wasn't really looking for help. Was having the thought in real-time and realizing how I felt about the church situation in general.
Almost all my thoughts are so fleeting. Some of them are sort of important though.
When one is trying to practically figure out how to live engaged there are only so many opportunities nearby to do it.
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- Recently I've been trying to figure out if I have:
- Some kind of frontal lobe activity issue
- ADD
- PTSD
- retardation and I still like this word
- brain structural problem
- underlying severe emotional issues - that I still don't understand
- executive function issue
- learned helplessness
- developmental trauma disorder - hypodopaminergia
- I do have GAD - generalized anxiety disorder
- neurodivergent spectrum thing
Adding:
- Social anxiety thing?
- Shyness
- or low self esteem
- emotional self containment
- Avoidant Attachment Style
- External Locus of Control?
- Lost Child Syndrome
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I mean I look at this list and I see why medical professionals say to just try a pill and go away lol.
I like this list that I've come up with. I like it because it's clear. It's more clear than just using the term "depression." Or "unmotivated." But also I'm not a psychiatrist. I sort of wish I could just take my list to a psychiatrist and they could just tell me but then I wonder if they would even be able to figure it out.
Now I don't like the list. It became too long.
It's just going to sit there. I am tired. I might read some fluff.
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OMG do I have to add Schizoid personality disorder to that list above.
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Meh.....when the blunt voice pops into my head..... it's my father's voice. Always. He put it there.
How do you feel about your internal blunt voice?
Thanks for sharing your dream. I already forgot my last one.....have to write them down, or they're gone.
Lighter
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Meh.....when the blunt voice pops into my head..... it's my father's voice. Always. He put it there.
How do you feel about your internal blunt voice?
Thanks for sharing your dream. I already forgot my last one.....have to write them down, or they're gone.
Lighter
Oh I think the blunt voice is mine. I do not think this is anybody else's voice as an introject or something.
I think my blunt voice is anti-gaslighting myself. It does not feel bad to me.
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Meh, I tried to reply about your list yesterday but deleted it coz ye olde inner critic thought I was being too... something. It felt wrong.
The important part of my response was your list is what I would describe as symptoms you experience because of your lived life so far - and trauma, abuse, neglect, insecure attachment.... WHATEVER. You could explain most of that list with almost ANY DSM "diagnosis". But that doesn't mean you can't start working to minimize how you experience the things in the list, in the absence of pinpointing a diagnosis.
Maybe it would help to rank the symptoms on the list for continuity - always, sometimes, rarely - and then intensity. Maybe it would let you decide to shorten the list to 2 or 3 things to focus on changing or understanding in a deeper way? Maybe assign a tentative time limit - 2 weeks, a month - always remembering that if your exploration and work shows results you can always devote more time to it. Also - we tend to work on the same things our whole lives - to lesser/greater degree. Just like I can't really change my white hair - different hair cuts are helpful at projecting a younger, stronger image. And I feel more confident.
I know you're creative and very smart. I'm sorry you're also lonely. Maybe THAT'S because you feel isolated from your inner self? Instead of needing other people/community. I dunno - but you can figure that out.
I'm just spitballing some ideas that might/might not inspire you into a direction. You sound a lot more open and clearer these days. So, maybe you're getting close to an actual breakthrough - hatching out into a spring chicken??? LOL. Rebirth.
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Thanks Skeptikal.
I'm not looking for people to give me solutions.
It's more an act of thinking outloud. Some of these things to some extent give me some shame and I've gotten in the habit of trying to like acknowledge the things with some shame around it.
Time limit sounds reasonable. I doubt my mind's mode of operation is reasonable though.
The other thing is I think I do have some important thoughts bubble up from the black bog every once in a great while and I often register it as a blip on the radar and forget it and just keep doing whatever I am doing.
The fact of the matter is I have been living a very schizoid type life style for much of my life and it was imposed on me I think as this is a normal world-view.
I know it's dull to be self-absorbed. I think my "social self" is very fragile and withdrawn.
Oh that is what I have been reflecting on the general idea of being withdrawn and as a child I sort of felt something was wrong with me for various things including the part of being withdrawn. Anyhow. It's very unlikely I should get a chance to see someone equipped to deal with this stuff. I have some appointment scheduled to see a counselor in May it takes that long and it's just an intake on a video conference with a guy in a different city. Anyhow.
I know people say it's improbable but I am at the point of patient heal-thyself.
Right now I have time to ruminate.
Thank you though. The part you say about the time limit seems legit. More importantly I think it's somehow utilizing action steps.
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I'm a fan of casseroles because it's not what I ate growing up and it's flexible if you get the basic cheese-can of cream of something ratio to everything else. I had an 8x8 pan and I got one of those ham steaks cut it up into cubes browned it, put can of cream of celery and maybe aprox half a cup of milk, some kind of cheap sharp generic cheddar didn't really measure it just like halfish of a small block, some frozen celery, cooked macaroni pasta and almost too much onion powder which I measured with my lazy hand giant pinch maybe three tablespoons idk. I think that is all I stuck in there. It's funny how I always wanted to make homemade macaroni and cheese but for some reason I couldn't figure it out before like I tried making something in a crockpot with cream-cheese I think and it over cooked and all separated etc. I think it was crockpot cheesy cauliflower thing. It didn't work. Anyhow I love casseroles. I want to make one with pepperoni. Since I have weird allergies at least I know what is in a casserole and I can make something like a pizza casserole maybe idk? -- I want to make a weird one pepperoni, yams, corn, olives. I'm at risk of gaining weight. I've never had a weight problem but without doing gardening, hiking, art or something then the next active thing is just like making food stuff. Shrug.
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Narcissists (and their children) often confuse the pain of being a victim with empathy.
True Empathy: "I feel the cow’s pain because I value the cow’s life as separate from mine."
Projective Empathy: "I feel the cow’s pain because I am the cow. If I save the cow, I am symbolically saving myself from my parents."
I've sometimes wondered what vegetarianism is really about.
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No worries. I know you're usually not looking for advice. Just sharing in hopes there might be a bit to inspire you or shine a light somewhere. And to essentially, let you know - it's not just you going through stuff like this.
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No worries. I know you're usually not looking for advice. Just sharing in hopes there might be a bit to inspire you or shine a light somewhere. And to essentially, let you know - it's not just you going through stuff like this.
LOVELOVE LOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVE LOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVELOVE LOVELOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVE
LOVE
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What SHE (Amber) said.
I don't find your thinking dull at ALL, Meh.
You are valuable and interesting to me.
hugs
Hops
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I found a book about lament not sure if mentioned that before. It's titled A Sacred Sorrow by Michael Card. The way it's written doesn't draw me into reading it. Lots of blah blah about nothing it feels like but I just like that a book on this topic exists as I was reading laments anyhow. So I will skim it. Flip through it. I like the concept that there is something in lament that is lost in society and something of value in it. That lament is a legit form of thought or expression. Why not. I feel people have suppressed laments. Not just a suppressed feeling but a whole string of something. Outside of toxic positivity and toxic negativity there has to just be plain real positivity and real negativity. I feel like if I quietly check in with myself at night and sort of think about how I am feeling even if they are not happy thoughts and if it's sad at least it's real and I don't feel that is negative. --- Actually what am I trying to say. I think I often just have a sad disposition and I feel it should be okay just to be that if that is how one is. I don't understand why it has to be like socially unacceptable to be a sad person.
being knee-jerk judgemental maybe is a habitual toxic-negativity thing idk. I'm getting into the false-positive/false-negatives like it's a medical test.
Wasn't always cynical really. It sort of started with one particular work group long ago that were all kinda grumpy and I caught it and kept it and have just been developing the cynicism oh well.
I'm really not feeling like I have a strong sense of self these days. I feel like one of those ocean rocks that have the holes all-over them. I think it's because I never keep all juggling everything and I've never had the emotional strength to have a lot of personal life as well as work. I sort of just completely lean into the work identity when I am working. The bits and pieces of me not the work person feel very small. My life is weird. This morning I asked someone how their week had been and they told me they had gone to a funeral ... and they asked me about mine and I couldn't say much because I've been self-absorbed/navel-gazing/barely existing or not existing in a socially acceptable way so what do I say to people: "oh just doing lots of errands." ---
Shrug doesn't matter. There just haven't been any mile stones recently. Nor hobbies. Nor going places. I better not think about it too much I will want to find the nearest moshpit which there are none.
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"Scheper-Hughes, N. (1992). Death Without Weeping: The Violence of Everyday Life in Brazil. University of California Press.
This book is considered a masterpiece of medical anthropology. It specifically details her fieldwork in the "Alto do Cruzeiro," a hillside shantytown in the town of Bom Jesus da Mata, Northeast Brazil.
The Core Concept: "Selective Neglect"
Scheper-Hughes challenged the Western idea that "maternal instinct" is universal and automatic. In a world of extreme poverty and high infant mortality, she observed:
Life-Leaning vs. Death-Leaning: Mothers categorized infants as either "fighters" (survivors) or those "wanting to die" (weak).
Delayed Attachment: Because babies died so frequently from diarrhea and malnutrition, mothers practiced what she called "maternal detachment." They would not name the child, talk to the child, or "mirror" its emotions until it had passed the high-risk infancy stage."
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I dunno. Taking a positive risk, no matter the outcome, is something.
You got close to and loved a dog for a while.
You went to a church. It turned out not to fit you, but you did it. (Try UUs?)
Both of those were human engagement with sources of love. Or potential love.
If your rock didn't have that porosity, you wouldn't be able to try new things.
And it sounds like you're doing better in the self-love department. Whether it's through research, navel-gazing (my major) or taking gentle risks, you're trying, imo.
Small steps can be real leaps sometimes.
hugs
Hops
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Hops, you had mentioned that you had an N relative and you at one point were wondering IF they had some cross-over with autism like spectrum.
This is something I was wondering about one of the covert-paranoid-sadistic narcissist relative in my orbit. If they also had some cross over with autism and the reason why I was wondering it was due to their lack of motivation to do basic things like executive function issues.
The thing is today I was really thinking how the N I know has a sadistic element to their personality they enjoy making other people uncomfortable AND they are passive aggressive and then the more I thought about the situation I thought I think the autism-like traits I am seeing are actually long-term passive aggressive behaviors.
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???
Distinguishing Neurodivergence from Covert Manipulation
When an individual neglects daily responsibilities while remaining absorbed in digital media, the distinction between Executive Dysfunction (Autism/ADHD) and Weaponized Incompetence (Covert Narcissism) lies in the intent and the reaction to accountability.
1. The "Boredom" of the Superior
To the narcissist, mundane functionality is viewed as "beneath" them. They frame their refusal to participate as "boredom" or a sign of "High Intelligence," suggesting their mind is too complex for "pedestrian" labor. In reality, this is a defense mechanism. Being a functional adult requires humility and presence, both of which threaten the narcissist’s fragile ego.
2. The Mask of the "Innocent Victim"
To protect their low-effort lifestyle, the narcissist adopts a strategic posture designed to flip the script on anyone requesting help:
The "Confused Intellectual": They play the role of someone so focused on "complex systems" that they "simply didn't notice" the environment. This forces others to take over their responsibilities.
DARVO (Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender): If challenged, they don't address the task; they address the ask. They frame the person requesting help as an "aggressor" or "nag," shifting the focus away from their own neglect and onto the other person’s "tone."
3. Why Functionality Causes Discomfort
The Mirror Effect: Completing a mundane task forces them to acknowledge they are ordinary. It shatters the fantasy of being a "special case" exempt from the rules of life.
Shame-Triggering: In their mind, a task left undone is a failure. To avoid the shame of that failure, they simply refuse to look at the task, effectively "deleting" it from their reality.
Autism (Special Interest) vs. Narcissism (Defensive Withdrawal)
Primary Goal: Autistic focus is for Regulation (finding joy, flow, or mastery to manage a chaotic world). Narcissistic focus is for Shielding (creating a "bunker" to stay unavailable to the demands of reality).
Social Mask: Autistic neglect is Unfiltered and usually due to genuine "blindness" caused by deep focus. Narcissistic neglect is Strategic, relying on a "Postured Mask" of being a "distracted genius" to avoid labor.
Internal Logic: Autism involves Monotropism (the brain is biologically funneled into one channel). Narcissism involves Entitlement (the belief that they are exempt from the mundane duties of living).
Resources for Research
Freyd, J.J. (1997): Violations of power, adaptive blindness, and institutional betrayal. (The foundation of DARVO mechanics).
Miller, J. D., et al. (2011): Vulnerable Narcissism: An Analysis of Its Components. (Detailing the "innocent victim" mask).
Murray, D., et al. (2005): Attention, monotropism and the diagnostic criteria for autism. (Distinguishing between biological focus and defensive withdrawal).
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I feel annoyed and stupid with my current situation of therapy appointment.
After looking into the place even more it's not feeling like a good match at all they assign people to a therapist? That seems more like a case-manager. And after reading more on their website I realized it's a Prison-to-Community Pipeline: a major contractor for "Jail-Based Behavioral Health Services" (JBBS). They specialize in transitional care for people leaving incarceration. Their primary focus is on recidivism reduction and court-ordered compliance. And also a lot of focus on some kind of deferral process for drug addiction stuff.
This mental health service center is really just an extension of the prison industrial complex. Yeah they've got some weird government contracts... like whatever.
I think I might flip this place the invisible middle finger and just move on. It's just a conveyor of compliance and conformity lol.
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I think that's a wise choice, Meh.
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FWIW (probably not much), about 50 years ago I was at a hospital ER in Louisville due to chest pain (panic attack, but who knows, maybe I also had the microvascular angina that early). Anyway, two psychiatry residents gently asked if I'd like to "spend the night" and I freaked, nooooooo thank you. First time I realized anxiety could be taken quite seriously or called something. I felt scared and relieved at the same time. They referred me to a hospital social worker (MSW) and I attended both her group therapy and individual sessions for a while. Her compassion and insight blew me away and really helped. The group did too, hugely. Speaking of humility.
I think that's one experience that made me believe in trying to hold out the possibility of good things happening (replacement "belief"). Small or large. Q: No guarantee s/he won't be a burned-out prison psychologist, but would it harm anything to talk to this T once? I have a very smart PhD younger friend who's been working at San Quentin for years and loves her job. Her mother was severely borderline so I could see why she's drawn to it.
Some of what you posted made me start another little cycle of worrying I might be an N, or N-ish. I think of it as behaviors rather than branding but scary stuff. Mainly around the why-don't-I-do-home-tasks-like-I-should. It really is mainly about my back though. Nothing superior about all that. I'm nibbling at it. TONS of shame attached.
The possible overlaps between Nism and autism ring true to me. My daughter was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, autism (then Asperger's), and ADHD after her father died in her second year of college. She's also very very self-absorbed in ways that read narcissistic to me. I often wonder if my Nmom was on the spectrum. My monster-bro has severe ADHD and, imo, is an N-sociopath. He sure had zero empathy. I believe one of my mother's brothers had severe depression. And probably her handsome preacher father, who felt entitled to abuse his daughters. I probably had serious despression too, but just remember being so sad and lonely as a child that I felt my heart was breaking, a lot. Daily. No therapy back then. (The first time I realized that people were actually allowed to talk about sadness/trauma was watching Dr. Oprah. LOL.) Pondering Poet lately, I often wondered about similar sorts of labels like Nism, Borderline (might explain her rage bursts) and definitely manipulation. I was startled to find "major depressive disorder, remitting"--forget the word-- in my medical record but in recent years thought, am I ashamed of that? Fuck NO. I think back then it was ego, iow, I'd rather label myself than let anybody else do it. Now I'm grateful. Less preoccupied with the syndromes or their analysis, more with general life. Just capacity for peace. Whew.
A couple decades on this VESMB have been priceless therapy for me too. No exaggeration.
I admire your guts in taking a deep dive into it all. I don't think it's wasted.
hugs
Hops
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Meh....my two cents. Good therapy can be different things to different people.
If you make and take that first phone call .... perhaps a second ....you might find a compassionate witness you click with.
Even if they're doing other work, not applicable to you...
connection and "good therapy" might somehow be possible, bc that therapist gets you.
Truth: There are therapist doing more harm than good out there....in all walks of the field.
Other truth: There are good therapists, doing good work, in all walks of the field..... social workers, psychologists, clergy....bartenders. My point is....sometimes, unexpected people help us make connections, for reasons other than the school they attended, or the job they're paid to do.
Finding someone, you click with, is more about alchemy, their experience, interests, toolbox, our willingness to sit in discomfort and talk about discomfort and pain, IME. I'm a blurted, btw. I just hit the high spots, unredacted btw, and put a t all on the table.....how the T responds tells me a lot. I want steady, all business, let's get down to processing trauma and learning how I can do it in my own.....I want zero ego....I want HUGE compassion, even though it makes me cry. My youngest DD wants to banter ....she wants a sharp wit, and humor mixed into her sessions.....and she wants to be found funny. Needless to say, my T has concerns about DD's current T, but there it is.
Discerning who's right,wrong, or somewhere in between can be mindfulness practice for you, should you choose to make the call. You can notice what comes up, how it feels, where you feel it, what changes it, if it changes.....and ask questions you care about. At least you'd know a bit more about what they u don't want, if it doesn't work out.
Lighter
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Some of what you posted made me start another little cycle of worrying I might be an N, or N-ish. I think of it as behaviors rather than branding but scary stuff. Mainly around the why-don't-I-do-home-tasks-like-I-should. It really is mainly about my back though. Nothing superior about all that. I'm nibbling at it. TONS of shame attached.
Well If I were labeled as having a personality disorder I think I could accept it if it made sense to me. I think I would rather know.
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Well, I kept trying to pin the label on myself and several therapists told me to cut it out, I'm NOT a narcissist. I'm lots of other fun things: codependent, highly sensitive, bigly ADHD, and anxious. Also creative, quirky and open. Way healthier now.
(I was just terrified when I learned about what Nism was about 20 years ago -- it's why I came here -- and had all those realizations about my mother and brother, that I was obsessed with the subject for a long time. I saw Ns behind every bush and kept diving into their orbits, like with boyfriend M and perhaps Poet too...and my child). I realized I'd been groomed to feel familiar if not comfortable in that position. Nobody "planned" it for me and I'm not a victim any more. It was just where nature and history put everybody, I guess. But I think I'll always need to be cautious and learn to put trust and vulnerability only in kind hands.
hugs
Hops