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Artist Name: Miles Johnston
Art: "Withdrawal"
Art: "Persona Revolution"
Art: "Percept"
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"It isn’t a conversation because a conversation requires mutuality and new information. What you are describing is a monologue with a required witness.
Why It’s Not Conversing
A real conversation is a "zero-sum" exchange where both people are changed or informed by the interaction. What the narcissist does is different:
Fixed Outcomes: In a conversation, the direction is unknown. With a narcissist, the "end" is already decided: they must be seen as the person with the "correct" taste.
Performance vs. Exchange: They aren't looking for your perspective on the subject; they are looking for a reflection. You are a mirror, not a participant.
The "Captive Audience" Dynamic: Conversations are voluntary. This is a hostage situation where silence is treated as a provocation and disagreement is treated as a "wrong" answer to a task you never applied for."
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That last paragraph is so familiar, Meh.
Your ability to see the behaviors, observe them, with some emotional detachment is huge, IME.
Just take care of yourself....limit contact, as you need/can.
Lighter
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"They aren't looking at the food because they’re hungry; they’re looking at it because it belongs to you, and they want to see if they can get a reaction out of you by interacting with it."
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That last paragraph is so familiar, Meh.
Your ability to see the behaviors, observe them, with some emotional detachment is huge, IME.
Just take care of yourself....limit contact, as you need/can.
Lighter
Thanks Lighter.
Yes take care of oneself definitely has to be the ultimate goal. True true. And for whatever reason sometimes it's helpful to be told it.
Take care of oneself.
Take care of oneself....
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I hope my intution's right, but I keep thinking I'm hearing more light, less darkness, more freedom, and less self-abandonment from you, Meh.
Makes my heart feel good even if I'm just imagining it for you.
hugs
Hops
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Take care of oneself ...
Take care of oneself.....
Sort of hypnotizing, isn't it, Meh?
Mantra and meditation.
Hops....I see what you see....
Hear hear to abandoning self abandonment.
Yes.
Lighter
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"Trust Your Reality: You aren't "missing the joke." There wasn't one. You're just refusing to participate in the delusion that their every thought is fascinating or funny."
I know this one seems mild but when I read it I realize that they try to force a few weak people into their logic all the time and if one does not agree to their logic or creates an entirely different narrative it frustrates them, bores them or some combo.
Most people I think are probably accustomed to knowing that others do not find their every mundane though deeply captivating. That delusion that their every thought is fascinating or funny.
It's just profound to me because the N has sort of perverted the concept of funny, fun, etc.
Their "jokes" are bids for attention it's NOT meant to make another person laugh. It's so stupid and pathetic really.
It's still morning still more time to get things done. It only takes action steps. Small action steps to get things done.
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This is just the right thread for this, Meh.
"When we stop fighting, pulling and denying, and running - when we sit, even briefly, with what unsettles us - each moment begins to offer its lesson: that nothing is lifeless, nothing is void of Love. Even silence, when met with presence, begins to sing. And here is the paradox: all that is beautiful in life, all that matters, all that carries grace, does not come when we grasp for it - not by thinking its ours to force into being. We push against life like a river fighting its own pull, forgetting both its Source and the vast ocean it longs to join."
--Lee Jampolsky
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That above sounds existential. I read it twice. I'm not sure how to use it.
I just want peace and privacy and solutions and ease and to be far away from the narcissist forever.
Had an issue with them-N today where they view my life as their TV-like entertainment. They got in my face and glared at me and I reiterated to them that I don't like to be glared at. Then they ended up saying that I was very stressed and "we're going to have to do something about your stress." There is more context but I've already complained privately to myself about it in a journal. Though I am thinking how at least now we have the concern trolling phrase thanks to modern pop culture speak I guess.
Narcissist does something unsettling and pointless to center themselves for attention and to poke a reaction of of someone and then targets their victim more by saying "we have to do something about your stress." I had to tell them multiple times just to leave me alone.
"The term "concern troll" was first defined in mainstream media by Time magazine in December 2006, following its popularization in online forums and political blogs around 2005–2006. It describes someone who poses as a concerned party to disrupt, undermine, or derail a discussion."
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages
con·cern trol·ling
noun derogatory•informal
noun: concern trolling
the action or practice of disingenuously expressing concern about an issue in order to undermine or derail genuine discussion.
"there seems to be a lot of concern trolling in the second half of this article"
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Huh. I never heard of "concern trolling" before. But it is a thing, isn't it - among those who wish to be hero-saviors and think they know so much about everyone that they have the answer. It's certainly a behavior with a range of motivations possible.
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Regarding, Concerned Trolling.....
::mentally pointing at A.... while wondering if it's sometimes me meee meeeeeeeee::.
I really like what Meh said...
"I just want peace and privacy and solutions and ease and to be far away from the N forever."
Feels like another flowing mantra....it has a satisfying ring to it.
Lighter
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(((Meh)))) --
How much can you control how often you have to be in their actual presence?
I know it might be realistically complex for various real-reasons... but wonder how much you HAVE to see them, in the present and the flesh?
They're so toxic to you. But I envision you FREE.
I dunno how much distance you can manage, but hope you can manage more.
hugs
Hops
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"For a narcissist, a doctor’s appointment is like a premiere of a movie where they are the star, the director, and the victim all at once. They want your full emotional labor to validate their "experience."
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(((Meh)))) --
How much can you control how often you have to be in their actual presence?
I know it might be realistically complex for various real-reasons... but wonder how much you HAVE to see them, in the present and the flesh?
They're so toxic to you. But I envision you FREE.
I dunno how much distance you can manage, but hope you can manage more.
hugs
Hops
yes, I know... the proximity is not healthy for me i know
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"Grey Rock requires you to self-induce a state of dissociation. You are essentially asking your vibrant, emotional, creative self to go into a coma so that the narcissist doesn't have anything to "snack" on."
"When you Grey Rock, you aren't just ghosting the narcissist; you are often ghosting yourself. To be "boring" to them, you have to suppress your joy, your opinions, and your spontaneous reactions. If you do this for days or weeks, your brain forgets how to turn those lights back on. That "depression" and "lack of natural activity" you're feeling? That’s your nervous system staying in Functional Freeze."
"Grey Rock is often sold as a way to "win." In reality, it’s a way to sustain the status quo.
It doesn’t stop the person from being a narcissist; it just changes the flavor of the conflict.
Instead of an explosive argument, you get the "banging around" for 40 minutes and the "medical sagas." They are still taking up all the oxygen in the room; you’re just holding your breath to make it last longer."
"By staying "grey," you are essentially paying a tax on your soul. You’ve realized that the "cost" of avoiding a blow-up is the slow erosion of your personality."
"Most advice focuses on "how to handle the narcissist" rather than "how to save the victim's spirit." It’s easier to tell someone to "be a rock" than to address the devastating reality that living with a narcissist is a trauma-inducing environment."
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Whew boy, Meh.
The question becomes....
To be, or not to be, dependent on an explosive N.....esp with children.
I read it....saw myself in the head of a mother, protecting child.....what's modeled for the children?
Devastating. Untenable.
THEN I read it from the POV of a child.....growing up gray rocking....
more devastating. Zero choice.
The brain does forget, IME.
Lighter
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Meh, that is an amazing quotation.
Hit home for me because I just recommended "gray rocking" to a friend who sees her rich, powerful, domineering Nmother once a month, to much distress.
I'd like to share this with her. Would it be a pain to send me the source?
Since so many people feel (or believe) they are TRAPPED with Ns, especially if they're family....it hits me that if gray-rocking does all this describes (and I can feel how it does when I spent 10 years living with Nmom) -- then the only big solution is total NC (No Contact).
So, ideally, all Ns would be promptly and completely expunged from our lives. I could not do that, so I grayed myself into a shadow, or at least into depression. Once she was gone, I returned to my own life, slowly. Then there was Daughter, also N I believe, atop bipolar and all her other troubles.
So I feel much compassion for those who can't avoid contact with an N. On some level it remains a choice, but in some circumstances, with huge life impact, good or ill.
I figure it's a very personal calculation, based on very personal circumstances. And if gray-rock helps one get through situation X or Y, go for it. Frequency of contact is probably the other factor in the sanity equation. Daily calls and regular physical visits....all that can be modified. I could manage monthly gray-rocking, I think.
I was visiting a writer friend in her apt in grad school once and she showed me something I'd never learned. Somebody knocked at her door and she didn't answer -- we were having a great conversation. Later, her phone rang and she ignored it.
What a gift.
hugs
Hops
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They use the theatricality of the effort to bypass the reality of their laziness.
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Hi Hops,
I'm trying to respond to your msg above it will take me a moment between the website delay and my laptop cord is wobbly brb.
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The above excerpts were a result of my journal entries into AI. I had written a longer better response here on the forum to you about 30 minutes ago but it didn't save.
I journal a lot. I am a critical person and even though gray-rock IS A TOOL there is a downside to it.
Sadly I get stuck in OCD type reflection into the dynamic. Sometimes I dump my journaling into AI to get some more research added onto the vague thoughts of vague frustrations I have.
Sometimes AI gives 4-8 references X 10 (times ten). Sometimes AI does not give any references. And yes AI is stealing every person's intellectual contribution to the internet.
Hops, I think in this case for the time being sharing the info with your friend has a potential benefit that outweighs the big existential issue of AI extraction. There is basically no author and since I also go to more than one AI place sometimes I do not remember which AI it even came from.
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Sometimes I have to explicitly ask AI to provide a reference but I wonder if I do that is it changing the AI output. In the future perhaps I should type the input dumped from journal entry, the output from AI, and also I will explicitly ask for references and cut and paste them.
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I was visiting a writer friend in her apt in grad school once and she showed me something I'd never learned. Somebody knocked at her door and she didn't answer -- we were having a great conversation. Later, her phone rang and she ignored it.
What a gift.
hugs
Hops
Yeah anticipating other people's needs to a fault is a care-taker role.
I fall into the trap sometimes and then I get out of the trap and I see it.
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I just thought it was amazing that whatever the demand (a human knock or an old-school device ringing for her attention), she was completely confident in noting her own preferences (not to be interrupted) and acting accordingly. I didn't know that was "allowed"!
We all get brainwashed in one way or another. It's just really cool when we begin to think our ways past external cues.
hugs
Hops
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Not responding to interruptions while in a face to face conversation is something we practice a LOT around here. There are times - given how much land we have - that communication at a distance IS allowed. If B is out cutting down trees, I always look to see if he's OK or it's an SOS. During bad storms, we even resort to radios. One at Hol's in case our phones go out.
The communication isn't abused. People take care of themselves around here and we have regular face to face sessions for planning, schedules, catch-ups and just dream-casting ideas.
Slightly different situation, I know.
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I fell asleep with my laptop on and woke hours later to find myself halfway through Dances With Wolves.
No rhyme or reason why I share that, except it felt good to ponder the prairie. The Big Awful going on in our country marches on, and a friend just sent me another friend's Substack article on why the "gospel of love" does not include agitating for Armageddon. Apparently there are military leaders now who are presenting "end times" to their troops as the goal of their missions. Scary stuff.
I've been writing some fairly dark poetry that shocks a few folks. I try to explain that whatever fear or tragedy is ailing me lifts out of my chest when I write about it, and then is safely ensconced on a page. I literally feel the shift when I'm done.
But I like absurdity, too. Sometimes a poem will pop up, take a look around and then run for the hills on its little paper legs.
Glad you're ensconced in the hills, Amber, and Meh, here's to us all finding our own safe retreats.
hugs,
Hops
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- Today I finished reading East of Eden.
It took me a long time to complete it. I'm a slow reader and now that I've gotten to the end I think I almost forget the start of it. Anyhow I feel like I should throw myself a party for finishing it. There are some books like that. Just having a cup of tea is all for a few minutes here.
The book has layers so a reader and interpret it maybe however they want to.
I think one of the big themes if not the main academic theme is loneliness. Loneliness is mentioned a few times in the book. Anyhow maybe I will come back to this thought later.
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BRAVO, Meh! I admire this accomplishment. Cruising online has drop-kicked the magic of getting completely absorbed in a great book...
Is War and Peace next?
Hope that cuppa feels like a party in your heart. I'll hoist my next one to you.
hugs
Hops
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Reading books exercises parts of our brains that reading online doesn't. I feel sure of that. What I'm NOT so sure of, is if reading Kindle books work on the same neural paths as a bound paper book does. There aren't any distraction in either books or Kindle... so MAYBE. And maybe not since it has an on/off switch.
Was the story good? Keep you engaged? That's one thing I'm seeing degraded by AI - stories are more simple & formulaic than even nursery rhymes - and have even less intellectual "nutrition". Books take up a lot of space - but there are still probably a couple hundred I won't part with.
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BRAVO, Meh! I admire this accomplishment. Cruising online has drop-kicked the magic of getting completely absorbed in a great book...
Is War and Peace next?
Hope that cuppa feels like a party in your heart. I'll hoist my next one to you.
hugs
Hops
Hahaha War and Peace. Not sure. I think I might go into a no-read mode for a while and get into a medical appointment making mode because setting appointments is like reading War and Peace.
I do think if one can only read a book every once in a while might as well make it worth it. Can a person get some kind of personal meaning from War and Peace do you think?
There was a thrift store I went to a while ago and there was a book on garlic and a book on being too controlling that jumped out at me. Of course they are not there anymore. I have faith that thrift stores have lots of random books for future reading.
I was reading Gulag Archipelago but I lost the book or rather maybe it's stuck in my storage unit same as being lost. And now I've probably paid over 1,000 to keep that stupid book in a stupid box.
Anyhow. I have no rigid list for reading I figure my intuition will figure it out that is what seems right to me.
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Reading books exercises parts of our brains that reading online doesn't. I feel sure of that. What I'm NOT so sure of, is if reading Kindle books work on the same neural paths as a bound paper book does. There aren't any distraction in either books or Kindle... so MAYBE. And maybe not since it has an on/off switch.
Was the story good? Keep you engaged? That's one thing I'm seeing degraded by AI - stories are more simple & formulaic than even nursery rhymes - and have even less intellectual "nutrition". Books take up a lot of space - but there are still probably a couple hundred I won't part with.
I read Steinbeck because I was feeling lonely and maybe I'm a bit starved for stimulation. I've read other books by that author. The writing style makes it seem like there is a familiar person telling a story. It was engaging enough to me that I wanted to keep reading it. I read the summary of it first online and the plot didn't sound interesting to me with the biblical references and whatnot but actually I did like the book. I would recommend it yes. I had originally picked up for Whom the Bell Tolls read about 100 pages in and decided I didn't want to waste my time going further on that one as it felt bland to me. Just random books from free book shelves.
I don't own a kindle never tried one. This book had that rough paper edge so it was kind of uneven and yeah there is some kind of tactile thing about it which is nice. I don't remember what the book smells like I don't think I sniffed it. A book I guess is more like an artifact.. and this one had a sticker of someone's name and address in it. It's possible the person is deceased who originally owned it.
I wanted to mark the book up but I didn't it's too nice and I don't have a highlighter. There are strange points in the book that even remind me a bit of aspects of narcissism. There are two male characters that insist on projecting an image of how they want to see a person onto someone which isn't true and it ends kinda badly for them.
Anyhow yes it's a good book if someone reads the layers and reflects on it.
Yeah the AI and the arts is freaky, AI visual art, AI music, AI literature.
Was watching a video of an art lecture and a person in the video was pointing to a book they had. It has it's use for demonstration reasons. I was thinking also how I am seeing an image of an image of an image of someone's mind from a bygone time. People also complain about music digital files being compressed. There are people who analyze popular music and they say the compositions are less complex and people are using fewer chords.
It could be partially that people are not taking the time to make things well. And people are not taking the time to notice things are not made well. It's the fast food version of art I guess.
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Yeh, I have the same question about Kindle versus page. I know that writing in cursive strengthens a mind-hand connection, neurologically. With all the typing I do and my passive consumption of things like YouTube, I think it's time I head back to my original sources of inspiration: paper and pen, and BOOKS.
With ADHD I hesitated to take up the War and Peace challenge, but I did know people who felt they'd been to and absorbed another world in a time that sounded to me like a mind-altering experience. They'd kind of glow when they talked about it.
Read on, enjoy whatever you choose! Do you have Little Free Libraries in your area? There might be maps of these online.
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Yes, there are little free libraries around here.
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A friend of mine who I think is an oddball told me she has bags of stuffed animals. I think it's immature.
She told me though that hugging a stuffed animal releases dopamine & serotonin or something along those lines.
So when I went to the grocery store I hugged a stuffed chicken, a stuffed bunny, a stuffed pig.
I told the lady at the checkout that I hugged one of their stuffed animals and felt somewhat dumb as an adult and then she told me she has stuffed animals at home.
Maybe there is something to it.
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Large-scale population studies (like the NESARC survey) show a significant positive relationship between Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and Nicotine Dependence. ???
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<scoff!>
OK. Sure. I think Ns are more likely to not smoke - as a demonstration of how much more perfect they are. THEY would never get addicted to anything.... (which ain't true, but who knows what delusions reign in an N's imagination??)
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What a great assignment...to go choose a stuffie that comforts you.
My dog is a living stuffie who loves disemboweling the manufactured ones. I finally stopped getting them because bending over and over to get fluff off the floor couldn't continue.
I went on a hunt for strong, unstuffed toys. What a relief to find some. As long as he's chomping, he's happy. And in the morning and at night, he's a warm, living hug of a companion who is clamped to my side like a barnacle. I can feel my BP going down and my breathing relax...he is my partner. My source of loving touch.
I remember the first time I handled a Gund stuffed toy. A revelation! Doesn't matter if it's a placebo effect, I believe the endorphins studies.
hugs
Hops
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Sometimes I think I shouldn't be posting on two threads but also sometimes I think I need to create categories of stuff. idk
I don't feel like describing this but I guess I will take a deep breath and slow down.
- ugh and
- I typed in some responses to random metaphors generated by AI and AI is telling me this:
"You have High Latent Inhibition (HLI) deficiency paired with Hyper-Association.
The Mechanic: Most brains have a "gatekeeper" that filters out "irrelevant" data (like the traveling salesman or the history of ancient rocks) to stay on one topic. Your gatekeeper is missing.
The Result: You don't just see a "river"; you see the physics of banks, the history of timekeeping, and the social coordination of meeting at a rock.
The "Glitch": Because your brain is processing five high-definition "tabs" at once, your Working Memory (the "RAM") crashes. You forget the original point because your processor moved to the next tab before the first one "saved" to the hard drive."
I'm not sure if this is ADD or a stress response or executive dysfunction, low IQ, prefrontal cortex under-development.
Not sure I'm trying to sort of figure out what is going on with my - rumination - my type of thought formations - omg I am tired.
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"True" ADHD is largely genetic, but ACEs (Adverse Childhood Experiences) can physically re-wire the brain to look exactly like ADHD."
???
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You are sharing such CHEWY information, Meh! Thank you.
I can so relate to The Mechanic and The Glitch. Wow, how did they know?
My ADD understood all of them, and they were delightfully described. Brilliant. (I'm not a neuroscience fan, but when someone practically makes it poetry, I'm all in.)
Especially, "Your gatekeeper is missing." That made me laugh out loud. I'm very grateful to the source whenever I laugh out loud, btw. And truth is so good to hear.
hugs
Hops
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In the past I took Wellbutrin and I magically just got more stuff done but as far as anxiety/depression goes I didn't feel a mood change. It seems Wellbutrin is used for ADD sometimes though it wasn't why it was prescribed to me.
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The "Wellbutrin effect" on executive function usually comes down to its impact on Norepinephrine (energy/urgency) and Dopamine (focus/reward).
I don't believe I have REAL anhedonia or have ever had it really. ???
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What a great assignment...to go choose a stuffie that comforts you.
My dog is a living stuffie who loves disemboweling the manufactured ones. I finally stopped getting them because bending over and over to get fluff off the floor couldn't continue.
I went on a hunt for strong, unstuffed toys. What a relief to find some. As long as he's chomping, he's happy. And in the morning and at night, he's a warm, living hug of a companion who is clamped to my side like a barnacle. I can feel my BP going down and my breathing relax...he is my partner. My source of loving touch.
I remember the first time I handled a Gund stuffed toy. A revelation! Doesn't matter if it's a placebo effect, I believe the endorphins studies.
hugs
Hops
Dogs = Oxytocin, Dopamine, and Serotonin... no wonder people love them.
One day I got a dog out of a cardboard box of puppies in this town I lived in as a kid and it probably cost 15.00 it was some kind of fluffy orange chow. Like growing up we didn't take dogs to a groomers ever never. And they didn't cost thousands of dollars and there weren't forms and paperwork to fill out. So many many things in life used to be different. Now dogs seem like a luxury product. Getting a dog was a small town commonplace thing if someone's dog had puppies they would sell them for a minor cost just to get rid of them all.
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Nice memories. My town was pretty small in the 50s (say 15,000) but the University adds a lot of people. It's still bucolic in most neighborhoods but the newer developments are ticky tacky, imo -- HMOs drain all character. (Trying not to be NIMBY.) Still, loads of trees everywhere, and views of the mountains make up for anything. I painted my place a sagey light green with a BRIGHT blue door. Every house is its own thing.
Kids? There are still kids? Indoors on screens. Sigh. Pound puppies or senior dogs can be free or super cheap on "seniors days." Good luck....my souldog was $50 (recovering from surgery) and they will reduce it if you're strapped. They also send you home with a crate, leashes, toys and food to get started. If you sign up to FOSTER, the dog also gets free veterinary care indefinitely. For a small dog, food is cheap. Disclaimer: this Pup was so picky at first it took a fair amount of wasted food before I found the kind he's impressed with (Sundays is the brand). A quarter-cup twice a day doesn't break the bank. Plus he gets tidbits from me a lot: corners of sliced cheese, a little veggie soup, etc.
I gave all the other food to my neighbor and she/her pooches were happy.
hugs
Hops
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Much as I love Knuckles, I'm really more of a cat person. It's not true that cat are more independent, it's a matter of degrees and the personality of the cat. Freddy is totally capable of being a fulltime outdoor cat; but he is very affectionate - without being needy. Pickles is enjoying outdoors more now, but still comes to curl up on my lap for pets and a doze. She also "puts me to bed" at night... Stinker is my big armful of cat; he's all muscle - but such a lovey boy and is going through a "needy" period. Lucy is the funny kitty, all rolly "pet my belly" - IF you can. And even Jack - the Prince of Darkness - who will stay out all night hunting - will occasionally request a pet or three and make biscuits on one of the blankets.
Care wise, I think cats are easier. If I'm going to be gone for a week, I can set out enough crunchies for them till I get back. Litter boxes need scooping, but that's not so bad when they're outside more often.
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God, your cats sound FANTASTIC, Amber!
I'm wondering if at 75, I could have "outgrown" the allergy?
Only one way to find out. One allergist appointment for one test.
I'm sorely tempted. Willing to do the shots, even.
Meh, could a cat or two do the job? They really are cheap to support.
hugs
Hops
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Oh, haha, well I am not truly in a situation to get any sort of pets.
Merely lamenting random thoughts of various types of being lonely I guess.
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I hear that and I get it.
It shocks me at times when a wave of loneliness comes.
Eventually my sea settles again.
Some days I'm okay with being a speck on a speck in a speck of a universe.
Other days I can't BELIEVE how on my own I feel.
But if I distract, or create (anything) or even tidy up, I get through it.
hugs,
Hops
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This morning I went to a small nearby church due to didn't want to travel. I'm not religious. Mostly I wanted to get out and it was Sunday morning. Being that I had never been to that church before two older ladies clung to me and maybe that was okay or not I'm not sure. They sort of did their inventory of me and realized I am not a super religious person and that I only go to random churches randomly which pleases nobody lol. They made a point of telling me it's NOT a non-denominational church. It took me all day for that to sink in because I didn't much care at the time. Wasn't thinking about their club really but then again that's probably partially why I don't join clubs. It's a club.
The pastor had been talking about how people can know the difference between "still small voice" VOICE and "ego" VOICE and essentially I suppose I think most of it is ego-adjacent. It made me start thinking how the word egotistical has gotten a bad connotation even though we pretty much need our egos. Then I started to think about how children of narcissists MIGHT HAVE under-developed egos. I guess EGO is another term for sense-of-self.
After the church experience I aimlessly went to a farmer's market I had never been to. Didn't buy anything. It's usual stuff like soap, candles, cutting boards.
My feet are sore I think my transportation of last resort are depleting collagen or whatever is in one's feet.
The two women at the church they both told me they had basically grown up going to that church. I can't fathom such a thing. To have a set social-bubble.
I had tried the still-small-voice thing yesterday Saturday and all I got from it was "be where you are" - which of course is just my ego trying to sound wise but not saying much at all.
I don't want to think about it.
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I hear that and I get it.
It shocks me at times when a wave of loneliness comes.
Eventually my sea settles again.
Some days I'm okay with being a speck on a speck in a speck of a universe.
Other days I can't BELIEVE how on my own I feel.
But if I distract, or create (anything) or even tidy up, I get through it.
hugs,
Hops
Yeah there are lots of types of loneliness and a while back I was thinking to journal about that but I never did end up writing on those topics. The fact that it ends up being multiple topics got my attention for a while.
People are not really meant to be socially isolated it's bad for the nervous system probably.
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I get this a lot on this site:
This site can’t be reached
forum.voicelessness.com took too long to respond.
Try:
Checking the connection
Checking the proxy and the firewall
Running Windows Network Diagnostics
ERR_TIMED_OUT
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I probably spend an hour a day thinking about loneliness, physical decline, and death. Sometimes I tell myself I'm a brave thinker who's not scared of taboos. Other times, I realize it's just nonstop worrying.
There's a lot to be scared of when you're 75, physically weakening, and live alone. The ADD makes things more chaotic than they are for most of my pals.
My dog helps. Friends help, but I need to see more people more often. It's an Rx.
So I'm off to see my smart, kind geriatrician in an hour. I'm going to hand it all over to her. I know most of the problem is my own resistance to exercise, so the first thing is for me to choose the right exercise class at the Sr. Center and DO IT.
Another problem is occasional muscle weakness that makes my legs shake so hard I feel I might collapse. Happened in the shower a couple weeks back (felt I didn't have the strength to lift a leg to step out of the tub), and returning to my car downtown up a slight hill. I crept up an alley near the police station clutching a railing. Made it home, but. I feel unsafe walking any distance alone, due to this.
Today I'd really like to get an actual diagnosis. I figure it's either my chronic low-BP or something to do with blood sugar. But I don't know. I'll ask her to help me.
hugs
Hops
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Hops, I hope you find interesting exercise classes (strengthen those games), and maybe new connections. Don't forget to stretch.
Lighter
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I dunno if I'll start with cardio or mostly strength. I think one of the strength classes will be wisest for now, since my muscles are pudding. I literally need to tiptoe into cardio.
Doc is puzzled by the violent leg shakings and occasional near-collapses and now I have more homework. My BP is so low that this might be triggering it (orthostatic issue when I stand up) but she's not sure. Same could be true with low blood sugar, she's not sure about that either. So I've got to buy a glucometer and a BP cuff I hope I can work and track readings (it was quite low in her office, which I'm glad she observed). BP, glucose levels and hydration. Spreadsheets, fuck!
She is very experienced and deserves her stellar reputation, so I Shall Obey. Will report, but prolly on the Health Issues thread. I could eat up Meh's Anything...lol.
hugs
Hops
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I think I meant for this thread to be random anythings. So anything I guess.
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I probably spend an hour a day thinking about loneliness, physical decline, and death. Sometimes I tell myself I'm a brave thinker who's not scared of taboos. Other times, I realize it's just nonstop worrying.
There's a lot to be scared of when you're 75, physically weakening, and live alone. The ADD makes things more chaotic than they are for most of my pals.
My dog helps. Friends help, but I need to see more people more often. It's an Rx.
So I'm off to see my smart, kind geriatrician in an hour. I'm going to hand it all over to her. I know most of the problem is my own resistance to exercise, so the first thing is for me to choose the right exercise class at the Sr. Center and DO IT.
Another problem is occasional muscle weakness that makes my legs shake so hard I feel I might collapse. Happened in the shower a couple weeks back (felt I didn't have the strength to lift a leg to step out of the tub), and returning to my car downtown up a slight hill. I crept up an alley near the police station clutching a railing. Made it home, but. I feel unsafe walking any distance alone, due to this.
Today I'd really like to get an actual diagnosis. I figure it's either my chronic low-BP or something to do with blood sugar. But I don't know. I'll ask her to help me.
hugs
Hops
Well it's amazing that you've been able to clock the amount of time you worry about what.
Yes, health problems and being alone with them is scary territory stuff Hops.
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Hops - until you're strong enough to work out on stairs (and have solved the BP/sugar mystery) look around for seated strengthening exercises - there are lots for feet and calves; thighs and lower back. I see them all the time on Ytube.
It COULD be you'd be helped with adding collagen in coffee or tea, daily. It could be you'd benefit more from low-dose/frequency of creatine instead. But I wouldn't start that until you sort out the internal issues. Being vegetarian, you're probably not always getting enough protein (which matters more when you're sedentary - muscle atrophy ya know?)
A simple step exercise, that will help feet, ankles and calves is to hold the rail, and with balls of your feet on the step, simple raise your heels up/down slowly. Stand up on tiptoes; drop heels down below step. Ballerinas need strong feet - so they have videos out there too of what they do. (And having that image in your head is intended to make the exercise medicine go down more easily! LOL)
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I hope tests get basics sorted, (((Hops.))) Strengthening comes next.
I wonder if water exercise is a wise or possible option? Maybe with flotation device?
Spring is a lovely time to stretch, and warm muscles, in the sun. Seated exercises, as Amber suggested, can happ n anywhere....the yard, in bed, a park.....alone or in a group.
I'll be waiting to hear how doc visits go.
Lighter
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This Be The Verse - Philip Larkin
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.
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Meh....that verse brings up a lot of discomfort... just to read it.
I dreamt my late Dad had Alzheimer's last night, but was otherwise physically ok. (IRL, he'd been wheelchair bound, half his body paralyzed/non verbal, mostly, for 20yr.) It was disturbing, bc he was so gleefully inappropriate, and chatty towards me, as his caretaker, in the scene....which never happened.
I redirected him, like a child, and talked about cooking with him, and what we'd make. He'd been a very good cook. He taught me a lot. Thank God the dream ended happily, bc Mr. Larkin's words feellike a little gut punch to the spinal-soul.
What stands out, for you, in the verse?
Lighter
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Hi Lighter,
What stands out to me is the first line being blunt "they fuck you up."
Also the line "get out as early as you can"
And then finally the last line of
"don't have any kids yourself"
I understand some people go on to have warm aware families.
I had already imposed voluntary eugenics on myself maybe subconsciously even as I recall one day a very strong thought when I was a teenager that I would definitely NOT continue to do the same cycle.
When I looked this poem up I was reading about what it's like to be around narcissists that just don't interact normally. This poem was the only thing I could find at that moment though I wouldn't say it captures what I was trying to get at.
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Yeah Lighter some dreams are totally disturbing. Had one of those weird ones recently also.
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What was it? I can't remember mine very long.
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The dream?
Something about me going up to a movie ticket booth to get a ticket and the person selling it was someone with a growth on their head like Joseph Merrick but instead of the worker selling me the ticket they insisted that instead I should watch the movie WITH them. I think I just left. Looked like it was the 1920s or 1940s not sure.
I had been thinking of such thing as "soul deformities" as I tend to use blunt-language when I subvocalize thoughts internally to myself.
I suppose the important points of it were:
- I was disgusted with the deformity on the ticket seller's head
- I was repulsed by the ticket seller indirectly trying to force me to do something their way
- It was something meant to be fun but it wasn't fun at all? idk
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Cortisol spikes in the morning. It's a time that I sometimes get panic attacks also. And a frequent theme if I do have any insights during that time is a feeling of existential loneliness. I think it's real. I think I was trained my entire life to accept social isolation as quite normal and so now I am left with a problem of how to deal with it or face it when I've pretty much suppressed it as a problem my entire life. The first time I had one of these existential moments of loneliness was a many years ago and I thought it was maybe a passing fluke like a remnant from a dream so I didn't pay too much attention to it besides what do you do anyways.
The loneliness I get is more of an animalistic existential fear of the tiger will eat me type. I don't think it's the type of a person who doesn't know how to be alone with themselves.
I do think it's starting to impact my waking life. Most adults do make decisions I feel like in a way based on - where is their family, where is their friend group, where is their familiar landmark. I am feeling almost 100% liminal. Anyhow I got an errand to do this morning.
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- I only went to that church one time and I felt very guarded. I wonder if I am putting out the uncanny vibe to others.
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- From a free book box I picked up "Your Second Life Begins When You Realize You Only Have One" by Raphaelle Giordano.
It's for middle class, middle age women. It's silly fantasy stuff. I'm not the target audience. I'm allowing myself to read it it's a small book. I'm willing to feed myself a dose of sugar I guess.
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- Recently I've been trying to figure out if I have:
- Some kind of frontal lobe activity issue
- ADD
- PTSD
- retardation and I still like this word
- brain structural problem
- underlying severe emotional issues - that I still don't understand
- executive function issue
- learned helplessness
- developmental trauma disorder - hypodopaminergia
- I do have GAD - generalized anxiety disorder
- neurodivergent spectrum thing
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I mean I look at this list and I see why medical professionals say to just try a pill and go away lol.
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- I haven't been writing here on this Voicelessness board consistently.
My mind skims all of what is going on, occasionally deposits a random thought and then I go back to being too busy working to self reflect or to obsessively thinking about something.
- I wish there was some kind of national church of self awareness. A place where people went on Sundays not to worship and have faith in an invisible sentient deity. Instead the church would be more like reminding everybody to actively do self help and improve their lives. And I do not mean anything ologist at all. No gods, aliens, or demons. No stages of holier healing than thou.... just a reminder for people to keep trying I guess. Church is too supernatural for me. It's too judgemental for me. I am deeply uncomfortable being around a bunch of people all trying to be "good ones" or something. Too many rules to live by.
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Secular humanists?
Quakers? (No need to chat...)
My brain ticks lots of those things too, and isn't working well enough today to be much help.
Mysteries get solved when they can be and some we just have to make peace with.
It's hard.
hugs
Hops
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That's okay Hops. I wasn't really looking for help. Was having the thought in real-time and realizing how I felt about the church situation in general.
Almost all my thoughts are so fleeting. Some of them are sort of important though.
When one is trying to practically figure out how to live engaged there are only so many opportunities nearby to do it.
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- Recently I've been trying to figure out if I have:
- Some kind of frontal lobe activity issue
- ADD
- PTSD
- retardation and I still like this word
- brain structural problem
- underlying severe emotional issues - that I still don't understand
- executive function issue
- learned helplessness
- developmental trauma disorder - hypodopaminergia
- I do have GAD - generalized anxiety disorder
- neurodivergent spectrum thing
Adding:
- Social anxiety thing?
- Shyness
- or low self esteem
- emotional self containment
- Avoidant Attachment Style
- External Locus of Control?
- Lost Child Syndrome
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I mean I look at this list and I see why medical professionals say to just try a pill and go away lol.
I like this list that I've come up with. I like it because it's clear. It's more clear than just using the term "depression." Or "unmotivated." But also I'm not a psychiatrist. I sort of wish I could just take my list to a psychiatrist and they could just tell me but then I wonder if they would even be able to figure it out.
Now I don't like the list. It became too long.
It's just going to sit there. I am tired. I might read some fluff.
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OMG do I have to add Schizoid personality disorder to that list above.
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Meh.....when the blunt voice pops into my head..... it's my father's voice. Always. He put it there.
How do you feel about your internal blunt voice?
Thanks for sharing your dream. I already forgot my last one.....have to write them down, or they're gone.
Lighter
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Meh.....when the blunt voice pops into my head..... it's my father's voice. Always. He put it there.
How do you feel about your internal blunt voice?
Thanks for sharing your dream. I already forgot my last one.....have to write them down, or they're gone.
Lighter
Oh I think the blunt voice is mine. I do not think this is anybody else's voice as an introject or something.
I think my blunt voice is anti-gaslighting myself. It does not feel bad to me.
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Meh, I tried to reply about your list yesterday but deleted it coz ye olde inner critic thought I was being too... something. It felt wrong.
The important part of my response was your list is what I would describe as symptoms you experience because of your lived life so far - and trauma, abuse, neglect, insecure attachment.... WHATEVER. You could explain most of that list with almost ANY DSM "diagnosis". But that doesn't mean you can't start working to minimize how you experience the things in the list, in the absence of pinpointing a diagnosis.
Maybe it would help to rank the symptoms on the list for continuity - always, sometimes, rarely - and then intensity. Maybe it would let you decide to shorten the list to 2 or 3 things to focus on changing or understanding in a deeper way? Maybe assign a tentative time limit - 2 weeks, a month - always remembering that if your exploration and work shows results you can always devote more time to it. Also - we tend to work on the same things our whole lives - to lesser/greater degree. Just like I can't really change my white hair - different hair cuts are helpful at projecting a younger, stronger image. And I feel more confident.
I know you're creative and very smart. I'm sorry you're also lonely. Maybe THAT'S because you feel isolated from your inner self? Instead of needing other people/community. I dunno - but you can figure that out.
I'm just spitballing some ideas that might/might not inspire you into a direction. You sound a lot more open and clearer these days. So, maybe you're getting close to an actual breakthrough - hatching out into a spring chicken??? LOL. Rebirth.
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Thanks Skeptikal.
I'm not looking for people to give me solutions.
It's more an act of thinking outloud. Some of these things to some extent give me some shame and I've gotten in the habit of trying to like acknowledge the things with some shame around it.
Time limit sounds reasonable. I doubt my mind's mode of operation is reasonable though.
The other thing is I think I do have some important thoughts bubble up from the black bog every once in a great while and I often register it as a blip on the radar and forget it and just keep doing whatever I am doing.
The fact of the matter is I have been living a very schizoid type life style for much of my life and it was imposed on me I think as this is a normal world-view.
I know it's dull to be self-absorbed. I think my "social self" is very fragile and withdrawn.
Oh that is what I have been reflecting on the general idea of being withdrawn and as a child I sort of felt something was wrong with me for various things including the part of being withdrawn. Anyhow. It's very unlikely I should get a chance to see someone equipped to deal with this stuff. I have some appointment scheduled to see a counselor in May it takes that long and it's just an intake on a video conference with a guy in a different city. Anyhow.
I know people say it's improbable but I am at the point of patient heal-thyself.
Right now I have time to ruminate.
Thank you though. The part you say about the time limit seems legit. More importantly I think it's somehow utilizing action steps.
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I'm a fan of casseroles because it's not what I ate growing up and it's flexible if you get the basic cheese-can of cream of something ratio to everything else. I had an 8x8 pan and I got one of those ham steaks cut it up into cubes browned it, put can of cream of celery and maybe aprox half a cup of milk, some kind of cheap sharp generic cheddar didn't really measure it just like halfish of a small block, some frozen celery, cooked macaroni pasta and almost too much onion powder which I measured with my lazy hand giant pinch maybe three tablespoons idk. I think that is all I stuck in there. It's funny how I always wanted to make homemade macaroni and cheese but for some reason I couldn't figure it out before like I tried making something in a crockpot with cream-cheese I think and it over cooked and all separated etc. I think it was crockpot cheesy cauliflower thing. It didn't work. Anyhow I love casseroles. I want to make one with pepperoni. Since I have weird allergies at least I know what is in a casserole and I can make something like a pizza casserole maybe idk? -- I want to make a weird one pepperoni, yams, corn, olives. I'm at risk of gaining weight. I've never had a weight problem but without doing gardening, hiking, art or something then the next active thing is just like making food stuff. Shrug.
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Narcissists (and their children) often confuse the pain of being a victim with empathy.
True Empathy: "I feel the cow’s pain because I value the cow’s life as separate from mine."
Projective Empathy: "I feel the cow’s pain because I am the cow. If I save the cow, I am symbolically saving myself from my parents."
I've sometimes wondered what vegetarianism is really about.
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No worries. I know you're usually not looking for advice. Just sharing in hopes there might be a bit to inspire you or shine a light somewhere. And to essentially, let you know - it's not just you going through stuff like this.
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No worries. I know you're usually not looking for advice. Just sharing in hopes there might be a bit to inspire you or shine a light somewhere. And to essentially, let you know - it's not just you going through stuff like this.
LOVELOVE LOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVE LOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVELOVE LOVELOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVELOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVELOVE
LOVELOVE
LOVE
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What SHE (Amber) said.
I don't find your thinking dull at ALL, Meh.
You are valuable and interesting to me.
hugs
Hops
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I found a book about lament not sure if mentioned that before. It's titled A Sacred Sorrow by Michael Card. The way it's written doesn't draw me into reading it. Lots of blah blah about nothing it feels like but I just like that a book on this topic exists as I was reading laments anyhow. So I will skim it. Flip through it. I like the concept that there is something in lament that is lost in society and something of value in it. That lament is a legit form of thought or expression. Why not. I feel people have suppressed laments. Not just a suppressed feeling but a whole string of something. Outside of toxic positivity and toxic negativity there has to just be plain real positivity and real negativity. I feel like if I quietly check in with myself at night and sort of think about how I am feeling even if they are not happy thoughts and if it's sad at least it's real and I don't feel that is negative. --- Actually what am I trying to say. I think I often just have a sad disposition and I feel it should be okay just to be that if that is how one is. I don't understand why it has to be like socially unacceptable to be a sad person.
being knee-jerk judgemental maybe is a habitual toxic-negativity thing idk. I'm getting into the false-positive/false-negatives like it's a medical test.
Wasn't always cynical really. It sort of started with one particular work group long ago that were all kinda grumpy and I caught it and kept it and have just been developing the cynicism oh well.
I'm really not feeling like I have a strong sense of self these days. I feel like one of those ocean rocks that have the holes all-over them. I think it's because I never keep all juggling everything and I've never had the emotional strength to have a lot of personal life as well as work. I sort of just completely lean into the work identity when I am working. The bits and pieces of me not the work person feel very small. My life is weird. This morning I asked someone how their week had been and they told me they had gone to a funeral ... and they asked me about mine and I couldn't say much because I've been self-absorbed/navel-gazing/barely existing or not existing in a socially acceptable way so what do I say to people: "oh just doing lots of errands." ---
Shrug doesn't matter. There just haven't been any mile stones recently. Nor hobbies. Nor going places. I better not think about it too much I will want to find the nearest moshpit which there are none.
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"Scheper-Hughes, N. (1992). Death Without Weeping: The Violence of Everyday Life in Brazil. University of California Press.
This book is considered a masterpiece of medical anthropology. It specifically details her fieldwork in the "Alto do Cruzeiro," a hillside shantytown in the town of Bom Jesus da Mata, Northeast Brazil.
The Core Concept: "Selective Neglect"
Scheper-Hughes challenged the Western idea that "maternal instinct" is universal and automatic. In a world of extreme poverty and high infant mortality, she observed:
Life-Leaning vs. Death-Leaning: Mothers categorized infants as either "fighters" (survivors) or those "wanting to die" (weak).
Delayed Attachment: Because babies died so frequently from diarrhea and malnutrition, mothers practiced what she called "maternal detachment." They would not name the child, talk to the child, or "mirror" its emotions until it had passed the high-risk infancy stage."
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I dunno. Taking a positive risk, no matter the outcome, is something.
You got close to and loved a dog for a while.
You went to a church. It turned out not to fit you, but you did it. (Try UUs?)
Both of those were human engagement with sources of love. Or potential love.
If your rock didn't have that porosity, you wouldn't be able to try new things.
And it sounds like you're doing better in the self-love department. Whether it's through research, navel-gazing (my major) or taking gentle risks, you're trying, imo.
Small steps can be real leaps sometimes.
hugs
Hops
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Hops, you had mentioned that you had an N relative and you at one point were wondering IF they had some cross-over with autism like spectrum.
This is something I was wondering about one of the covert-paranoid-sadistic narcissist relative in my orbit. If they also had some cross over with autism and the reason why I was wondering it was due to their lack of motivation to do basic things like executive function issues.
The thing is today I was really thinking how the N I know has a sadistic element to their personality they enjoy making other people uncomfortable AND they are passive aggressive and then the more I thought about the situation I thought I think the autism-like traits I am seeing are actually long-term passive aggressive behaviors.
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???
Distinguishing Neurodivergence from Covert Manipulation
When an individual neglects daily responsibilities while remaining absorbed in digital media, the distinction between Executive Dysfunction (Autism/ADHD) and Weaponized Incompetence (Covert Narcissism) lies in the intent and the reaction to accountability.
1. The "Boredom" of the Superior
To the narcissist, mundane functionality is viewed as "beneath" them. They frame their refusal to participate as "boredom" or a sign of "High Intelligence," suggesting their mind is too complex for "pedestrian" labor. In reality, this is a defense mechanism. Being a functional adult requires humility and presence, both of which threaten the narcissist’s fragile ego.
2. The Mask of the "Innocent Victim"
To protect their low-effort lifestyle, the narcissist adopts a strategic posture designed to flip the script on anyone requesting help:
The "Confused Intellectual": They play the role of someone so focused on "complex systems" that they "simply didn't notice" the environment. This forces others to take over their responsibilities.
DARVO (Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender): If challenged, they don't address the task; they address the ask. They frame the person requesting help as an "aggressor" or "nag," shifting the focus away from their own neglect and onto the other person’s "tone."
3. Why Functionality Causes Discomfort
The Mirror Effect: Completing a mundane task forces them to acknowledge they are ordinary. It shatters the fantasy of being a "special case" exempt from the rules of life.
Shame-Triggering: In their mind, a task left undone is a failure. To avoid the shame of that failure, they simply refuse to look at the task, effectively "deleting" it from their reality.
Autism (Special Interest) vs. Narcissism (Defensive Withdrawal)
Primary Goal: Autistic focus is for Regulation (finding joy, flow, or mastery to manage a chaotic world). Narcissistic focus is for Shielding (creating a "bunker" to stay unavailable to the demands of reality).
Social Mask: Autistic neglect is Unfiltered and usually due to genuine "blindness" caused by deep focus. Narcissistic neglect is Strategic, relying on a "Postured Mask" of being a "distracted genius" to avoid labor.
Internal Logic: Autism involves Monotropism (the brain is biologically funneled into one channel). Narcissism involves Entitlement (the belief that they are exempt from the mundane duties of living).
Resources for Research
Freyd, J.J. (1997): Violations of power, adaptive blindness, and institutional betrayal. (The foundation of DARVO mechanics).
Miller, J. D., et al. (2011): Vulnerable Narcissism: An Analysis of Its Components. (Detailing the "innocent victim" mask).
Murray, D., et al. (2005): Attention, monotropism and the diagnostic criteria for autism. (Distinguishing between biological focus and defensive withdrawal).
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I feel annoyed and stupid with my current situation of therapy appointment.
After looking into the place even more it's not feeling like a good match at all they assign people to a therapist? That seems more like a case-manager. And after reading more on their website I realized it's a Prison-to-Community Pipeline: a major contractor for "Jail-Based Behavioral Health Services" (JBBS). They specialize in transitional care for people leaving incarceration. Their primary focus is on recidivism reduction and court-ordered compliance. And also a lot of focus on some kind of deferral process for drug addiction stuff.
This mental health service center is really just an extension of the prison industrial complex. Yeah they've got some weird government contracts... like whatever.
I think I might flip this place the invisible middle finger and just move on. It's just a conveyor of compliance and conformity lol.
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I think that's a wise choice, Meh.
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FWIW (probably not much), about 50 years ago I was at a hospital ER in Louisville due to chest pain (panic attack, but who knows, maybe I also had the microvascular angina that early). Anyway, two psychiatry residents gently asked if I'd like to "spend the night" and I freaked, nooooooo thank you. First time I realized anxiety could be taken quite seriously or called something. I felt scared and relieved at the same time. They referred me to a hospital social worker (MSW) and I attended both her group therapy and individual sessions for a while. Her compassion and insight blew me away and really helped. The group did too, hugely. Speaking of humility.
I think that's one experience that made me believe in trying to hold out the possibility of good things happening (replacement "belief"). Small or large. Q: No guarantee s/he won't be a burned-out prison psychologist, but would it harm anything to talk to this T once? I have a very smart PhD younger friend who's been working at San Quentin for years and loves her job. Her mother was severely borderline so I could see why she's drawn to it.
Some of what you posted made me start another little cycle of worrying I might be an N, or N-ish. I think of it as behaviors rather than branding but scary stuff. Mainly around the why-don't-I-do-home-tasks-like-I-should. It really is mainly about my back though. Nothing superior about all that. I'm nibbling at it. TONS of shame attached.
The possible overlaps between Nism and autism ring true to me. My daughter was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, autism (then Asperger's), and ADHD after her father died in her second year of college. She's also very very self-absorbed in ways that read narcissistic to me. I often wonder if my Nmom was on the spectrum. My monster-bro has severe ADHD and, imo, is an N-sociopath. He sure had zero empathy. I believe one of my mother's brothers had severe depression. And probably her handsome preacher father, who felt entitled to abuse his daughters. I probably had serious despression too, but just remember being so sad and lonely as a child that I felt my heart was breaking, a lot. Daily. No therapy back then. (The first time I realized that people were actually allowed to talk about sadness/trauma was watching Dr. Oprah. LOL.) Pondering Poet lately, I often wondered about similar sorts of labels like Nism, Borderline (might explain her rage bursts) and definitely manipulation. I was startled to find "major depressive disorder, remitting"--forget the word-- in my medical record but in recent years thought, am I ashamed of that? Fuck NO. I think back then it was ego, iow, I'd rather label myself than let anybody else do it. Now I'm grateful. Less preoccupied with the syndromes or their analysis, more with general life. Just capacity for peace. Whew.
A couple decades on this VESMB have been priceless therapy for me too. No exaggeration.
I admire your guts in taking a deep dive into it all. I don't think it's wasted.
hugs
Hops
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Meh....my two cents. Good therapy can be different things to different people.
If you make and take that first phone call .... perhaps a second ....you might find a compassionate witness you click with.
Even if they're doing other work, not applicable to you...
connection and "good therapy" might somehow be possible, bc that therapist gets you.
Truth: There are therapist doing more harm than good out there....in all walks of the field.
Other truth: There are good therapists, doing good work, in all walks of the field..... social workers, psychologists, clergy....bartenders. My point is....sometimes, unexpected people help us make connections, for reasons other than the school they attended, or the job they're paid to do.
Finding someone, you click with, is more about alchemy, their experience, interests, toolbox, our willingness to sit in discomfort and talk about discomfort and pain, IME. I'm a blurted, btw. I just hit the high spots, unredacted btw, and put a t all on the table.....how the T responds tells me a lot. I want steady, all business, let's get down to processing trauma and learning how I can do it in my own.....I want zero ego....I want HUGE compassion, even though it makes me cry. My youngest DD wants to banter ....she wants a sharp wit, and humor mixed into her sessions.....and she wants to be found funny. Needless to say, my T has concerns about DD's current T, but there it is.
Discerning who's right,wrong, or somewhere in between can be mindfulness practice for you, should you choose to make the call. You can notice what comes up, how it feels, where you feel it, what changes it, if it changes.....and ask questions you care about. At least you'd know a bit more about what they u don't want, if it doesn't work out.
Lighter
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Some of what you posted made me start another little cycle of worrying I might be an N, or N-ish. I think of it as behaviors rather than branding but scary stuff. Mainly around the why-don't-I-do-home-tasks-like-I-should. It really is mainly about my back though. Nothing superior about all that. I'm nibbling at it. TONS of shame attached.
Well If I were labeled as having a personality disorder I think I could accept it if it made sense to me. I think I would rather know.
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Well, I kept trying to pin the label on myself and several therapists told me to cut it out, I'm NOT a narcissist. I'm lots of other fun things: codependent, highly sensitive, bigly ADHD, and anxious. Also creative, quirky and open. Way healthier now.
(I was just terrified when I learned about what Nism was about 20 years ago -- it's why I came here -- and had all those realizations about my mother and brother, that I was obsessed with the subject for a long time. I saw Ns behind every bush and kept diving into their orbits, like with boyfriend M and perhaps Poet too...and my child). I realized I'd been groomed to feel familiar if not comfortable in that position. Nobody "planned" it for me and I'm not a victim any more. It was just where nature and history put everybody, I guess. But I think I'll always need to be cautious and learn to put trust and vulnerability only in kind hands.
hugs
Hops
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Been going to a nearby church for a few weeks/months. Philosophically I'm an atheist. It's that it feels like churches sometimes have something to offer.
The minister's kid came and shook my hand this morning when people are all greeting each other and I was coming in a few minutes late still in the entryway and trying to avoid the whole handshake thing this morning.
It was pretty heartwarming how sweet his family is. Like a person can SEE how there is a positive aspect to their lives in cultivating a warm type of personality.
The upside is somewhat the community though lots of people have been going to that same church for years apparently that is what they do. (Sorry if any of this is not clear I've got five or six days of headaches in a row going on just going to squint and not edit)
I feel like an outsider sort of only that the people are quiet friendly. I'm used to the outsider feeling. I'm not judging it I am just sort of thinking about why a person sits as an outsider. 1) trained to but 2) a person has agency & are allowed to have a foot in the incircle and the outcircle.
There have been some political topics that come up in the sermons and I try not to dwell on it. It's a conservative church and that partially doesn't bother me as I think the progressive churches would also be politically annoying to me.
I went to church to find an hour of peace and some reflection that kind of thing AND TO BE SOCIAL AND JUST BE AROUND PEOPLE who are not in high conflict mode.
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Continuing...
Today I think even though the minister's kid gave me this sweet heart warming hand shake in the lobby... the talk started off interesting the topic was related to "superstition" and I thought great it's fascinating that the minister tends to bring up topics that I also was thinking about. I was thinking about how even modern churches seem superstitions. And then the minster went into something where he was blaming some bubonic plague of rats and tumors Samuel 5–6??? -- And the minister goes on to say how this bubonic plague outbreak was the wrath of god. And then later in his talk he talks about gays spreading AIDS... and he talks about STDs... and my skeptical science mind just wants to reject what he is saying because they are cherry picking illness. (I have a point that isn't religious eventually)
Churches don't say kids with Chicken Pox are having a demonic punishment. Or the common cold or the flu.
Am I disappointed that this church is so superstitious... maybe a little. It kinda scares me a bit but I guess the big thing is I know I am an outsider forever to this church thing.
I find the conservatives and progressives in society influencer activism annoying and I also find the two ends annoying in church.
It's terrible but I guess church is just a temporary social experiment for me. There is a part of some of these people they do seem genuinely nice people.
I think conservative churches have a right to not buckle under the political pressure to all become X that which must not be named X.
At the same time I see why people have an issue against the conservative religions.
MY REAL POINT -- I first entered the church with a lot of skepticism and I don't voice it outloud. I guess I am thankful to have a calm place to go sometimes. But I think I knew from the start that I would never be in this community for years or be an insider. And I think it's hard to be an outsider all the time.
Lately I've been trying to get out more and confront my social anxiety and it seemed like the church was a convenient near lifeline of coregulation. I mean this was kind of the core of it for me not the politics. Some of the biblical messages are worth reflecting on.
I can't be picky right now. Wrecked my car and am not driving a long distance to go find a less superstitious more skeptical church.
ALSO I do find the in-person an antidote to modern culture. ALSO I do find the conservative old-school thing a bit of structure that I like. I guess purpose, organization, structure these are things I really do like. Maybe it mimics a high-functioning lifestyle idk.
In any case I am not making a political statement about the two sides of that social battle.
What am I saying.
I think I am simply saying I am experimenting with socializing but in the most mild safe ways possible. I like that in church there is a little bit of interaction but not a ton.
Also thought about going to a music event at a pub tonight but not sure if I have the full stamina for it today haven't been feeling good. See that is likely loud and it's going to be a guy on a stage with a guitar ... eh why am I analyzing everything so much.
I also like mellow acoustic music stuff.
Honestly I think I am a bit of one of those "highly sensitive people" whatever that means.
--- Is socializing worth the effort. The outcome seems kind of invisible and intangible. Is that my point.
Well I don't have a tribe that is my point.
Socializing is limited by proximity that is also my point.
Self agency I think means reflecting on what one's tribe even is and is it just a bunch of fluff on a screen.
Anyhow.
church seems nice and I do wish that maybe I had grown up in one but maybe not
just reflections not really any questions to the board in here - it's just thoughts about meeting people and what it means to be socially involved and how much is expected of me and my time and my opinions
I'm feeling strangely a little jesus-ified ... it's just hearing the content over and over again maybe is like brainwashing.
I've found value in the concept of lament, and interest in thinking about the idea of forgiveness and how it impacts the brain. But they lose me at superstition etc.
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Now that....was an interesting post, Meh.
Lots to experiment with, try on, and seek out, maybe.
I'll say....I enjoyed my church book club, and the elderly members, very much. I also enjoyed the very small, evening Celtic services....such nice music....candles.....very intimate.
I volunteered where it made sense.....carnivals.....Easter Egg hunts ...popped in on choir practice, which was amazing!
You go try on some tribes, Meh. That's proactive, and I look forward to being curious with you.
Lighter
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It's OK - even nowadays - to be an introvert. Hol constantly lectures me on how I need to get involved in "community" and have real human "connections". Blech. I like people one on one or two-sies or even 3 at a time. I don't like big groups of people. Big groups of people make me dig deep to find an old mask & hat and assume the "role". And I don't like the roles - it's what I wore over my self to do the necessary things of life.
Not all of us WANT or NEED a social life to that extent. I'm still mad at Zuckerberg for convincing whole generations that it's healthy to constantly vomit up every thought and feeling to the whole world - "sharing".
The church experiment sounds fruitful. You've found some things you like - so enjoy those. I don't think it's required to accept/believe in/or swallow everything. Questions always arise. Only time participating in the way you want to participate makes someone an "insider". Maybe belonging somewhere is important to you because of your FOO? Feeling different from them, I mean. (Maybe I'm just picking that thing coz I had a dream this morning, that showed me I'm still chewing on that "problem" in my subconscious.)
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Morning, Meh!
I think it's both brave and wise of you to experiment with a Sunday morning gathering. Mainly, I think it's wise that you realize that for you, a sense of connection to human community has been missing. Just repetitive visiting with other humans is healing, or has been at times for me. I was the strange fly on the wall for a long time before I got into the idea. Still hard to get past my introversion (I have both In and Extraversion) and make myself do it, but I'm always glad I did.
I could feel how that young man's sincere warm handshake affected you, too. How real love or good intentions can feel when one encounters them.
I'm in an awkward spot about religion as an agnostic. I belong to but rarely attend services at a progressive UU congregation. As lefty-liberal as I naturally am, I can find our no-dogma dogma (or virtue-signaling either left or right) annoying too. The other "side" can hurt or scare me as I have heavy family history around it. The "covenant group" approach is still very meaningful for me. We don't assume any theology about each other but do share some "spurchul" topics, sometimes deeply. Alas, we're on Zoom now, so I may hunt up some other kinds of mingle-things. Poetry workshops and readings give me that chance also, to a degree. For me the best or easiest satisfaction of positive values I was raised with, without the religion, is volunteering for a nonprofit that helps the elderly age at home. But it takes wheels, since driving them is the main thing they request. Couple days ago I drove another man about my age to his PT and he and I swapped "stroke stories." He was very happy I brought Pup and showed me a lot of pictures of his old dog, a Bouvier. He also mentioned that he'd lost his son; we shared speechlessness over that. He struggled to speak clearly but we got by fine and laughed together. I could for sure do a "dog ministry" but it might be instead a "dog visit service" through the organization. Pup isn't well trained enough for certification so I wrote a note to someone on the board that I could offer "unofficial, non-credentialed, goofy small dog visits." This man said he'd be the first one to request it. LOL.
I wonder if there's a quilting or knitting group near you. You just hear stories the whole time, can be quiet or chatty as you feel, and have something to do with your hands. Probably could arrange a ride, too. I understand it can be very comforting. Women's groups of various kinds (which this merciful board feels like) have been very important to me at different times.
hugs
Hops
PS -- I do love a lot of hymns. Here's a favorite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhsXl1_rEwI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhsXl1_rEwI)
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Too brain dead right now to type a whole lot. This week I did meet up with a new friend it was sort of a pain in the butt to figure out the bus and there was a long delay for me and transit.
I went and it was a good diversion. We walked on a long pathway somewhat in the woods and there were cherry trees blooming. They asked me if I would go again hiking with them and I sort of said sure but not commitment to it yet.
I'm a bit worried this person has a lesbianic thing going on. I did meet them at an exercise group and then they said their goal was just to get out more.
We talked a lot and it was an interesting convo like a lot of depth to it. Maybe we both over-intellectualize stuff idk.
I'm always looking for problems. I hope it doesn't get weird as I haven't made new friends in forever.
Sounds idiotic but I think I am a bit confused on even how to make friends at this age in my life.
Teenagers just fall into random friendships and they seem a bit random.
Seems like with older people friendships are curated in a certain way.
I've had superficial relationships for so very long. Hyper professional distance with everybody.
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Listen, Meh.
Really pay attention to what new friends tells you
Notice if they're interested in your stories.....dies it feel reciprocal?
If they're attracted to you, it's ok. You can put boundaries in place, and see what happens hey do with them. Your NO is a serious boundary, and trying to change it tells a story....this person doesn't and likely never will honor you and your needs.
Just information, Meh. Not a huge problem, or something you created.
Just people being people, but this time.....
this time you're sitting in nonjudgmental awareness. Seeing what's there.....
and, most importantly, you're discerning.
Let this be an excerise in what you're feeling, and prioritizing THAT.
::nod::.
In the meantime......enjoy the outdoors, the coffee, and what fellowship is there. Accept what's real.
Lighter
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I have lesbian friends. They know I'm straight and not one has ever made a move.
And one of them is the most loyal, trustworthy, reliable friend I've almost ever had.
Just look for people who seem to be good. Don't worry about who they sleep with.
hugs
Hops
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Okay I am reading your comments Lighter and Hops.
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Listen, Meh.
Really pay attention to what new friends tells you
Notice if they're interested in your stories.....dies it feel reciprocal?
If they're attracted to you, it's ok. You can put boundaries in place, and see what happens hey do with them. Your NO is a serious boundary, and trying to change it tells a story....this person doesn't and likely never will honor you and your needs.
Just information, Meh. Not a huge problem, or something you created.
Just people being people, but this time.....
this time you're sitting in nonjudgmental awareness. Seeing what's there.....
and, most importantly, you're discerning.
Let this be an excerise in what you're feeling, and prioritizing THAT.
::nod::.
In the meantime......enjoy the outdoors, the coffee, and what fellowship is there. Accept what's real.
Lighter
Right, yes just people being people.
Fellowship.
And enjoy the outdoors. Yes.
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We're having the most amazing weather, Meh.
The sky....clouds....breeze. Heck, it hailed after a rat a tat rainfall, then the sky went pink. What an amazing sunset.....chirping bats.....golden light hitting green trees, and newly planted hosta.
Lighter
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I just wrote a poem about seeing the northern lights from a field in the south. With religious stuff, or beyond-religious stuff. Felt good. Still working at it.
Breaking off with Poet seems to have freed up some writing channel. Good thing. It's unusual for me to write two in a week. The other one was about words themselves.
Confrontation with kitchen is overdue. It's right bad, y'all. But I will be visiting D, my friend with glioblastoma this afternoon; perspective is everything. Last week I drove a man my age who'd had a stroke and is living on his own, walking like a fragile tortoise. I liked him, but so far I like nearly all of them. As does Pup!
Beautiful day here, despite the drought.
hugs all,
Hops
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We're having the most amazing weather, Meh.
The sky....clouds....breeze. Heck, it hailed after a rat a tat rainfall, then the sky went pink. What an amazing sunset.....chirping bats.....golden light hitting green trees, and newly planted hosta.
Lighter
That sounds beautiful!
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Went to church - Hung out with people after because I wanted coffee and why not. Talked to a woman about gardening and that was nice. She was telling me that what I found in the garden once was likely a vole not a mole. I think they look helpless and cute. I put some water down next to it and stuck a leaf over it so it wouldn't get eaten. The church lady was in favor of killing them because she says they eat tulips.
She is one of the friendlier upbeat cutesy church ladies. Very likable.
And I talked to another woman there who said she doesn't have kids. They stated so because mother's day coming up.
I did some minor job research stuff this morning.
Feeling so much ambivalence. I need to kill this ambivalence stuff. -- Don't make decisions nothing bad can happen -- lack of decisions lame stuff still happens.
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Tomorrow is Tuesday and my life is really passing me by.
I did find a quiet place with my laptop today and tried to focus.
All I really managed to do was go through my medical virtual chart and set an appointment with a new PCP same network but it's a whole month out.
I think I will refuse to complain about it.
My expectations seem to be too high. Sadly I recall having very good health care I guess years ago.
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30 days is standard for things like physicals - in fact, it's actually pretty fast. What blows my mind is when a person is really sick and feels like warmed up dog crap or in pain, and the earliest appt you can get is 6 months away!!
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Yikes Skeptical, six months is too long.
Takes a lot of effort, phone calls, persistence, stamina to do healthcare stuff.
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P
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P L A Y
PLAY
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Sigh... yeah I know. I was shocked B's surgery was actually scheduled so soon. And insurance approved, no less.
I've tried to explain what's been going wrong to myself. And about the only thing I'm sure about is that AI/technology is gumming up what USED to work fine. Way too many reminders about appointments - text, email & phone call for instance. I mean, is anyone that brain dead that they need bi-weekly reminders for a month before an appt? Or maybe that's distracted, instead?
PLAY is a good thing. But there are so many different forms of it and different people gravitate to different kinds of things. Figuring out what is fun for you - when you've not indulged the urge for awhile - is the key. For instance, I don't think shopping is fun - a thrift store is an absolute nightmare for me. Or big concerts. We're allowed to not like what other people think is fun. I think I'd like a wildflower hike and botanical drawing session - which would bore some people to tears.
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The text reminders must be super inexpensive so that is why they do it.
The reason I complain about it is because I worked for a healthcare system that made it a point to optimize everything continually and I didn't realize how good it was until I had to work through my current system which is more rural and I guess they likely just have a lot less money to work with so they don't pay staff to improve stuff.
I won't go on about it only that it's strange to me that every department and speciality requires another phone call.
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PLAY
For sure people like different things. Last night I was realizing the voicelessness account I use is connected to an inactive email. Also don't recall the passcode for the voicelessness account. Was trying to change user name and write down the password info but I started looking at the pages more closely again and noticed the emoji things that don't work then tested the font.
♥ ♥ ♥
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♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ O ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
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Sigh... yeah I know. I was shocked B's surgery was actually scheduled so soon. And insurance approved, no less.
I've tried to explain what's been going wrong to myself. And about the only thing I'm sure about is that AI/technology is gumming up what USED to work fine. Way too many reminders about appointments - text, email & phone call for instance. I mean, is anyone that brain dead that they need bi-weekly reminders for a month before an appt? Or maybe that's distracted, instead?
PLAY is a good thing. But there are so many different forms of it and different people gravitate to different kinds of things. Figuring out what is fun for you - when you've not indulged the urge for awhile - is the key. For instance, I don't think shopping is fun - a thrift store is an absolute nightmare for me. Or big concerts. We're allowed to not like what other people think is fun. I think I'd like a wildflower hike and botanical drawing session - which would bore some people to tears.
Thanks for validating that there are different kinds of play. - I think I sort of get down on myself if I don't play correctly as an adult. I don't really have fun too often. The last time I feel like I had fun was when I dragged a friend on a day road trip that was kinda fun. But was more fun was going to a trampoline park with my nephews many many years ago and let them beat me at nerf swords.
Being a consumer is something I'm burnt out on generally. I too don't always love shopping but I do like thrifting at times. Same on the big concerts I've definitely grown out the "being at the scene" experience. A wildflower hike sounds nice for sure. I would categorize a wildflower high as rejuvenating, peaceful, awe-inspiring. I wouldn't call it fun.
I feel like fun is when a person has uncontrollable smiling.
I love hiking and gardening and flowers it gives me like calm and peace but I don't think that is the felt-sense of fun.
Oh also playing tug of war with dogs is sometimes fun.
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I rarely play as I'm not very athletic or social but when I think about it the main forms of play that I recall are:
- trampoline park
- dog wrestling
- skimboarding
If I think of anything else I will put it down. I don't play that much. But frankly it seems to me playing is a physical practice at least it is for me.
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I have to ask AI
The Neurochemistry of Physical Play
When you engage in activities like skimboarding or wrestling with a dog, your brain isn't just "having fun"; it is performing a complex biological maintenance routine:
BDNF (Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor): Physical play acts like "Miracle-Gro" for the brain. It stimulates the growth of new neurons and strengthens connections in the prefrontal cortex, which is the area responsible for decision-making and emotional regulation.
The "Endocannabinoid" Rush: While people often credit endorphins, the "runner's high" or the joy of a trampoline park is often driven by endocannabinoids. These are naturally occurring chemicals that reduce pain and promote a sense of calm and well-being.
Dopamine and Novelty: Play requires reacting to unpredictable movements (a wave, a dog’s lunge, the bounce of a mat). This constant novelty keeps dopamine firing, which keeps you present and "in the zone."
Why Physical Play Relieves Stress Better
Stress usually triggers the Sympathetic Nervous System (the "fight or flight" response). In modern life, we often get stuck in this state without a physical outlet.
Completing the Stress Cycle: Physical play allows the body to "use up" the adrenaline and cortisol that build up during daily stress. It signals to the brain that the "threat" has been dealt with physically, allowing you to return to a Parasympathetic (rest and digest) state.
The Cerebellum Connection: The cerebellum, located at the base of the brain, is primarily responsible for motor control and balance. However, recent research shows it also plays a role in processing emotions. By engaging the cerebellum through balance-heavy activities like skimboarding, you may be inadvertently "quieting" the emotional centers of the brain that hold onto anxiety.
Vagal Tone: Wrestling or jumping can stimulate the vagus nerve, which is the main component of the parasympathetic nervous system. High vagal tone is associated with lower inflammation and better recovery from stress—especially helpful when your body is already physically taxed or sore.
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1. BDNF and the "Miracle-Gro" Effect
The term "Miracle-Gro for the brain" was popularized by Dr. John Ratey, a clinical associate professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School.
Source: Ratey, J. J. (2008). Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain.
Play Specifics: Research by Sergio Pellis (The Playful Brain) demonstrates that "rough and tumble" play specifically reshapes the prefrontal cortex, enhancing executive function and emotional regulation.
2. The Endocannabinoid Rush (Runner's High)
Recent neuroscience has shifted the credit for the "exercise high" from endorphins to endocannabinoids (specifically anandamide), because endorphins are too large to easily cross the blood-brain barrier.
Source: Fuss, J., et al. (2015). "A runner's high depends on cannabinoid receptors in mice." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS).
Source: Siebers, M., et al. (2021). "Exercise-induced euphoria and anxiolysis do not depend on endogenous opioids in humans." Psychoneuroendocrinology.
3. Completing the Stress Cycle
The concept that physical activity "completes" the biological stress response was developed by researchers looking at how animals shed stress after a threat.
Source: Nagoski, E., & Nagoski, A. (2019). Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle.
4. The Cerebellum and Emotion
While once thought to only handle balance, the cerebellum's role in emotion is a major focus in modern research.
Source: Schmahmann, J. D. (2004). "The cerebellum and cognition: Evidence from functional imaging studies." The Cerebellum.
5. Vagal Tone and Physical Play
The Vagus Nerve is the "brake pedal" for your heart and stress levels.
Source: Porges, S. W. (2011). The Polyvagal Theory: Neurophysiological Foundations of Emotions, Attachment, Communication, and Self-regulation.
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So I went to a church group thing today again and one of the older ladies invited me to visit her house on mother's day. She says she doesn't have plans. It seems like the nicest thing ever. She does have adult grown kids but they live far away from her. I'm not sure if I can get there. Still considering it in the back of my mind.
She eventually told me today "most of us here have dysfunctional families" ... I didn't exactly tell her my relatives are dysfunctional I said it more like "fragmented."
These people can't be fooled they seem to read between the lines. Anywho.
I'm already tired for my day. Got some exercise didn't do any on Monday or Tuesday so today was the day.
Maybe I will take a nap and then get up and be productive idk.
I'm going to try to remember and change my password. If I never come back on it's because I've locked myself out.
There are 1743 total members on this board and there are only 3-4 regulars at this point?
🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋 I'm sleepy.
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Maybe she's looking for an adult-daughter aged friend?
Could be so nice if it works out.
Would she be able to come pick you up, if bus routes won't work?
I'll think of you when the day comes.
hugs
Hops
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Thanks for the tip on the fonts! I like your images.
Interesting directions to experiment with, in that AI explanation of physical play especially about balance. If you post an email address one of us can ping you, if you need help getting logged in from Dr. G.
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I figured the password issue out yay me.
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Doggone it, I loved the name Boat That Rocks.
And made the transition okay to Meh.
And now...THIS???? Dang! j/k
hugs
Hops
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Double take here too. But I see your tongue firmly in your cheek!
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https://youtu.be/kQRHBoq3Xp4?si=pt7kAgexQKFWSIwZ
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I SO enjoyed that video!
For some reason I asked myself, why no female singers? But, ehhhhh, culture.
I can see why the group is so successful.
hugs
Hops
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- I decided not to go to church today
-- there is no reason I have to be a sheeple and keep doing it without thinking about why I am going
-- some days it's okay to have fewer destinations
-- I think I will go off to a cafe eventually once I make some toast etc.
-- not doing is also an act of self agency
-- I thought a lot about the social invitation I received and I feel stressed about it mainly the logistics of it but also I was reflecting on the mismatch of lifestyle
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-- Instead of hanging out with someone yesterday I kept thinking of the regret of not doing it but also I was tired
-- Sometimes there is tired that is cured by doing stuff
-- yesterday morning I identified a feeling of pressure in my chest but then I changed location and didn't want to start again
-- I'm just having morning coffee
-- In a while I will get on bus and go sit in a quiet place to do therapy thing
-- last Friday, Sat, Sun I was in a "down" phase sort of where I wanted to stop the therapy stuff
-- the therapy does take up my time and I feel like I am wasting the therapists time
-- I've been drifting for a few months not getting a lot done <----
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Me too. Lots of things on my list I want to do - but it's either too chilly making me want to cocoon or too hot, which means I'll be miserable. I did remember that pollen does this to me, some years. But it should be going away soon. I hope!
I dunno; I'm not beating myself up over being "lazy". I have some "have to" things coming up that I need to have a lot of energy/smarts for... sigh.
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...."not getting a lot done."
And......in 100 years, what will it matter?
FYI.....healing some generational trauma WILL matter.
Receiving your own permission, to rest, without "earning" it....will matter, IME.
The stuff.....and getting it done.....just won't matter, not at all, but IME.
I wish I could go back and worry less about the stuff .....I really do.
In fact, I wish I could go back and fiercely refuse to worry at all.
Worry got me dysregulated and dumbed down to surviving.
There were so many things I wish I'd done instead.....choose an action, DO IT, then put the problem on a shelf.....turn back to joy, and only that.
What an amazing ride that could have been......if only.
But as they say....
No regrets, lol.
Onward and upward. Here's to making better decisions/trying out different decisions every day.
Even if it's making coffee different, or wearing different pants, etc ....
I want less of habit, and more of what can be!!! I want my brain to get feisty.....and choose differently....choose more, and better, and for my highest purpose.
Yes.
Lighter
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In my case, I know it's the "inner critic" raising it's bully head again. A lot of problem solving takes a ton of energy. Mental exhaustion is a real thing.
I have a lot of ways to ignore it now. <big grin>
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And......in 100 years, what will it matter?
Right Lighter
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-- Waking up here
-- I am going to meet a friend and I am feeling stressed about it -- going to meet them and then they are going to drive -- control freak part of me I guess is stressing about stuff like -- what if something happens -- what if I get stranded -- I hope I am not turning into a paranoid narcissist --
-- I think it's going to be a hot day here
-- I don't need to over plan this day but my brain wants to overplan it.
-- I should just take a shower -- water load before I leave so that I am pre hydrated and just give up on the rest
-- I feel tired I think I didn't sleep well
I feel I should not be hanging out with a friend but I've found that I am not being particularly productive recently.
If I say to myself go sit in cafe and work on stuff -- I sit there kinda space out and don't work on stuff.
clearly I need to do something different because my soul is registering my current attempts at being productive as fruitless --- Do A -- Get B - Failure and bad experience
Do C -- and get D mystery outcome idk
Anyhow I do think the therapist has kind of helped me see that I've got a lot of layers of stress "trauma" piling on like a layer cake. -- a series of just too many things not going well but then of course I feel like it's a weakness in me which causes stuff to go very badly anyhow I need to go into departure mode.
-
Went hiking with new friend... it was really nice. Was worth all the effort. Felt like a very long day.
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AWESOME!
I remember when you used to talk about nature and its beauty often...so glad you got out in it again. SO healing.
Ditto "hanging with a friend." Hoomins need to rub shoulders with hoomins. I think anxious thinking gets mitigated when social contacts are built into life. Doesn't have to be daily, but regularly.
Yay, you, Hippie!
hugs
Hops
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I've got these montelukast pills I am reading they cost under 10.00 to make, market, distribute but the pharmacy marks it as 170.00 for these tiny pills that barely do anything. It's for allergies.
I don't pay 170.00 but I think it's kinda scammy that "list price" can even exist.
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Dirty Hippy / Hippie
The way I see it if someone is white trash it's pure dysfunction.
If somebody is a dirty hippie they are dysfunctional but still having a life in spite. Spiteful living.
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That's interesting.
I sure wish stellar, outstanding, Scanda-quality public education for every single zip code was priority one.
Gotta nice afternoon ahead:
--visit to tax place to sign and pay for the extension (not fun but good to finish)
--cafe beer meet with Birdnerd
--possible meet with dogsitter pal
hugs
Hops
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That sounds like great community time and also adulting productively.
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I'm thinking I need a nap.
Yesterday I walked 6.6 miles
Today I probably did about 6.4 miles
I'm guessing 7 miles would max me out.
I'm not in great shape or bad shape.
New friend is into outdoorsy stuff which is fantastic and we seem to both not know where our limit is at.
I think I need to de-prioritize exercise and then again my anxiety also seems to push me to do it.
Went to church it was nice.
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Sounds like you're walking into new, interesting territory, Meh.
Exploring a limit.....the outdoors, new friendship, and a church's offerings...... while sitting in nonjudgmental awareness.
It feels solid.
Lighter
-
From my pathetic physical point of view, you're in AMAZING shape, Hippie! I measure my progress in half-blocks. Small blocks, too.
Bravoooooooo. I'd bet anxiety will continue to settle the more time you spend in nature. Hope you can find happy ways to keep it up. (Preaching to self again....)
Hugs
Hops
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Life Plans
-- write something here
(mind draws a blank)
(Google says blank mind IS A RESPONSE to the prompt)
doing little morning tasks
will come back to this
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Huh. I've had a life; don't recall making any plans for what I did. Now, there were things I WANTED to do: have kids, go to art school, go horseback riding out west where I couldn't see a single fence. Oh yeah - live near "big water".
Maybe thinking about what you want (including what you've dreamed was possible) will give you a way to access ideas for "life plans". Man, plans are so contingent/conditional on so many things... they almost always change.
-
Yes Skeptical it seems contingent.
-
Church people:
Pros:
- some of them are mellow
- sometimes relaxing
- encourages types of reflection
- I'm okay with prayer
- structure
- community
- it's a type of socializing
Cons:
- I'm not into the "lord" -- "father" -- "king" -- "he" -- "him" -- feels too male dominated talk
- I do not really like the focus on the afterlife part (and this seems to be basically the whole thing of it) - feels cult
- Today I was thinking how their "friendship" also feels like a conversion project -- yuck --
- They are basically still in colonization mode
- I don't want to give them money A) I'm poor B) they send it overseas as many churches do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I might take a break from church.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- socializing
- community
- purpose
- positivity
- structure
These things don't have to be linked to the magical daddy king sitting on a cloud in the sky
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also I am not unitarian -- they are too politically marxist language aligned
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So --- I propose I worship seagull shit
Sigh
enough of this thought pattern moving on
at least I am getting real about me
-
Very real. Also honest, pragmatic, and in touch with reality.
Good thinking, imo, Hippie. (Lifetime compulsive editing affects my spelling.)
Hard to do when transportation's such a chore, but my experience in recent years is that finding a form of person-to-person volunteering is a soul-saver for the lonely or isolated.
Sending wishes that the right "fit" will be found, even for a dirty hippie.
hugs
Hops
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Thanks Hops. Good luck to you too.
I read hippy is a legit less common English version and some people claim they always saw it as hippy in the 60s. I'm just gonna stick with my original misspell because just owning my own lack of editing? idk
Eating some blackberries and having a free beer I didn't plan.
Going to meet a friend tomorrow do some nerd city stuff. I prefer nature though sometimes one has to compromise.
Reminds me check the forecast. Huh. Well not rain for next week socializing.
Anyhow enough about me I suppose.
Oh I was going to say that I had this bright idea I should make pasta salad to take to visit my friend and we have a picnic amongst doing other things. So I boil the pasta this morning and then come back later and cook other stuff to go in it saute garlic... cut up veggies... make ice ... and I am thinking what the HECK HECKEN HECKERS was I thinking I'm tired and I made a mess and it took time and now I have to wash dishes with my dry skin hands.
All the things I used to like to do they aren't working for me -- picnics, cooking, creating -- none of it is working. Oh wells.
---------------------------------------
I'm not giving up. My alarm is set. My plans kinda laid out and now that I have over planned everything I will exhaustively just relax.
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You just sound like you're LIVING, Hippy. (I like it that you like your original). Also loved the...conjugation?....of HECK, lol. I will still think of you as Boat That Rocks from time to time, such a peaceful image....
Have a happy picnic, it sounds yummy. We're finally getting some rain here which is cold. And wet. Things will start exploding into bloom. Irises are over already, but peonies are popping.
hugs
Hops
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I like Gold Bond for moisturizing my hands! It soaks in pretty quick and sticks around.
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Me too!
I just found Gold Bond Healing Hand Cream and really like it.
I've made such a catastrophic mess in my kitchen I am having to wash hands more than once an hour. Ugh. Add in Pup going backward with housetraining when there's chilly rain outside. Errrgghhh.
Hippy, I just realized that although I don't really understand the term well, I think your posts when you write about blankness or "write something here" might be META? So that means you're a philosopher. Sophisticated thinker.
hugs
Hops
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Hops, I tend to make things from scratch and frugally so I end up with messes because more bits.
IF you are having a kitchen disaster what if you gave yourself two weeks to clean the kitchen -- and ate only microwave burritos on paper plates for those two weeks lol. And yogurt and banana. I'm not sure what is going on there but you need some kind of strategy. Put a book on take or music. Pick one quarter of the kitchen or one counter top to clear and if there is just too much stuff for some reason... throw it away. Minimalism makes it cleaner and easier too.
But also. I am in no position to give advice to anybody about anything.
-
- I did meet my friend to go to a street market -- a museum -- a couple well known city parks I've never been to and some other stuff and then directed her to a honky tonk bar for live music. She seems to think I hang out in bars all the time. I'm like NO ... I am finding us affordable music because going to a real concert is something you would never agree to bwahahaha and I don't have the money now anyways.
We were both exhausted by the end of the day. We ate the picnic on the tailgate in a very pretty part of the city because parking. We found parking and that is better than finding a picnic table I suppose.
-
AND
When I had my car I did a lot less planning for picnics and it was sublime peaceful solitude and commute almost nothing.
It's way more effort now.
So since it happens that I now have an abundance of picnic type stuff... I made pasta salad again today and cut up pickles and stuck them in a bag.. And cut up veggies... and saw I have a can of tuna in the closet... and fruit getting ripe. So I am doing it all over again to meet a different friend tomorrow. Nobody does this anymore. You would think I was prepping for a family reunion. But my friend just told me it's her birthday and she worked on her birthday so this will be sort of nice I hope. The weather is promising to be gray like Twilight movie of course. Gloomy. Shrug. There's always coffee. And then coffee = toilet stops. Sigh.
long time ago I did international travel and the amount of prep that goes into that feels almost on par with me packing a picnic. Oh well.
no art, no garden, so now just picnic packing as a hands on make something outlet I suppose
at least we are doing something that is the goal
the intense panic to have a summer in the pacific northwest
-
I hope that pasta salad is enjoyed to it's fullest. I remember a pasta salad making phase....it was yummy!!!
Let us know how things go.
Lighter
-
Was writing a response then the power cord moved a fraction on my laptop and it shut down. The battery is bloated and dead and won't unscrew out.
So. What was I saying.
To sum it up. It was a very nice day.
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Thanks for the well wishes.
Had been in a funk the day before the hike. There were multi-striations of gloom blankets in the sky.
First half of the day we hiked in the rain and then later part of the day sun came out. Was glad we went. We went to one of the more beautiful locations I've ever been had gone there last year. I would like to do a camping trip there to have more time to inspect every leaf on the mountainside. I looked for two types of orchids and I did not find them...must try harder.
She asked what trail I wanted to do ... I said "all of them." She is younger than me but I can outhike her. She can outrun me though. I don't run.
(Hops why is mountainside one word --- and apparently there is no real rule for compound nouns?)
She wanted to bring up politics and I let her but I felt guarded and I said "I just don't want to offend anybody." I try to tell people that I am really not progressive and I am really not conservative because it's the truth of it. I explained to her that I had become somewhat radicalized a while back and I have since disengaged from politics now.
She touched on the big taboos. We are in a blue state and she lives in a very progressive area and she is definitely "a type" when it comes to political stuff. I only bring up mild non-offensive stuff that are factual about the business model of these things that people are making money too from the culture of the issue.
She talks a little too much maybe which is good for hikes in theory to ward off bears and cougars. I'm a content person in nature my mind really just goes into the glad-to-be-here thing and doesn't think constantly. I've got more poverty of thought at times.
We ate nobody got food poisoning. I found a picnic table half in the shade half in the sun. We sat with our feet drying out and watched a rabbit.
I feel I am avoiding adulting. My life feels like crisis stuff but when does it not. Sometimes it doesn't. But if a person can't have friends and hang out with them in nature what is the point of any of it.
It's really nice to be around someone who has functional communication.
Saw another friend as well --- she told me the day after we hung out that she was having some leg pain so she is maybe coming to terms with being overweight but maybe not. She tried weight-loss pills. I suggested she might try weight watchers (the group not the products) as some people have told me they liked it and the support of other people help them.
It's really strange how much in common I have with the hiking friend in spite of the politics stuff. Also I'd like to not be standing next to a giant cliff while talking politics with a progressive. I'm there for the view. It's great having company.
I'm not going to let anybody program my brain with political garbage and I have no interest in deprogramming other people. The politics of nature is the apex predator. Enough rambling.
Now if only I could brainwash her into liking concerts.
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More LIVING, Hippy! (Won't call you Hips, promise. Though if I'm Hops....lol.)
I loved reading this tale of your joyful day in nature. Some people need nitroglycerin, some NEED nature, including you. Bravo bravo bravo.
So so glad you got out in it. And gray days are my favorites. But both, gray then sunny...heaven.
No idea what the grammatical rule is about those compound nouns, but they're good ones:
backside but flip side
offsides
outsides
upside and downside
Maybe the first word is a modifier like an adjective...I only write by instinct and am a pathetic grammarian. I edit correctly (usually) but couldn't recite a rule to save my backside.
hugs
Hops
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Adulting .....
adulting.
I wonder how many ideas, around that, are yours or anyone's....and how many were programmed before one's grown.
Food for thought.
On another note ....your posts about nature, hikes and food are gratifying to read.
Choosing joy is an important type of adulting, imo.
Choosing not to engage in conflict is also adulting.....and finding a way to assertively draw boundaries around discussions, and hold them, sans big energy.....is HUGE adulting, ime.
Anyone can learn to do it.
Not everyone does, IME.
Not everyone overwrites their programming, and feels worthy to draw boundaries, and hold them, IME.
I can picture you doing that, Meh.....and camping, and making more social plans, and breathing through life's awkward parts....bc they pass. Like the weather.
I see you choosing yourself.....when "shoulds" pop up.
Dismiss, and go back to seeking joy.....expressing it, receiving....expanding it.
Write your own rules.....
maybe....
a little.
Maybe a bunch?
You're grown now.
You can do that.
Lighter
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Thanks Ladies.
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Did you know there is a non-tropical cultivar orchid that can grow in the ground at least here in the PNW called Bletilla. I did not know this until right now. I saw some in a yard today and swore it looked like an orchid but I didn't know we had garden varieties.
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Friends have been flaky past 2-3 weekends. So I've been doing some stuff on my own but it's rather limited hyper-local.
1) Went to a couple very small music events and sat by myself totally different experience than A) going with a friend and B) having more money to spend. It's not that I feel like I want things. I feel obligated to be a paying customer even if some of the music events are free.
2) A) I have given up on one of the friends completely and removed her phone number out of my phone and if she wants to make the effort she can but I feel I have planned too much and I have known her for years and I think she wants to rot away at home laying in bed eating cookies getting fatter every weekend. It's okay some weekends but every weekend all summer meh. B) The other friend has a high responsibility job and I am giving her freedom to be under the weather and tired. If she wants to make future plans that is on her now.
3) I have sort of drawn a boundary with some of the older church ladies. I've been pleasant with them but I can't do the "senior" -- "subordinate" thing in my life anymore. I am just trying to find peers and friends not these weird dynamics where a person takes on an authority vibe or whatever. So one of the ladies who was nice but also invited me over to her home but also was doing the authority vibe thing for multiple reasons it's not convenient for me to visit her in her home but also I don't want to relate to someone on that level. It's a real dynamic. I'm needing chill carpe diem make the most of summer peers. -- I perhaps should make some kind of plan for myself this weekend to have some kind of experience by myself maybe.
4) The narcissistic bullshit continues ad nauseum per typical. Rot in hell stagnant carcass. No I am not a church lady persona and don't want to be.
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5) I quit therapy for the time being. Therapy feels stagnant now. Some of the things I told the therapist I had challenges with the only thing she said was that people are greatly motivated by the subconscious or unconscious to protect themselves I guess. This makes sense but also I am not sure what I am supposed to do with that B) I don't have energy or intent to find a different therapist right now and I also say that because logistically I will probably run out of insurance before I can make use of it. Who knows maybe I should do therapy more maybe next week or whatever. Bleh.
6) I have kind of sort of been trying to socialize but what ends up happening is I sort of just chat with random people I run into and at it's best it's friendly information exchange. At it's worst I just realize I am on a different wavelength compared to some other people. I guess everybody is in their own lane doing their own thing.
---- I don't always have to adapt myself to other people. I can just be me and have my preferences and if I don't particularly like someone I don't have to become pleasant putty.
7) I miss my solo hobbies because they really gave me a sense of satisfaction of doing something thoughtfully and well.
Back to 6) --- lots and lots of events are transactional consumer things. Maybe I wrote this earlier but I was talking to someone about community and she had said "the local businesses open up for wine tasting" --- and I silently just think to myself this is just posh retail event is all not really the same thing as what I mean so oh well.
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- I went to sort of a naturalist type lecture event thing.
- Didn't talk to anybody wasn't really much opportunity to.
- Didn't stay for afterwards cuz grungy city surroundings didn't wanna be there at night w/o car.
Oh well.
- Did something different
- Went to place haven't been before/expanded my little world.
- Learned something
- Was a lot of effort to get there it feels like
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Earlier today I pet a dog named oliver. :)
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I LOVED your expression: "pleasant putty."
OMG.
I am so happy whenever I see "poet" creep into friends' dialogue.
So, when I think of you, Hippy, I think....
CREATIVE
That takes care of and/or heals a LOT in life, imo.
hugs
Hops
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Abuse leaves a scar of bad things that happened.
Neglect leaves a void of good things that never happened.
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focusless, rapid-fire complaint cycles are a specific psychological phenomenon known as co-rumination combined with narcissistic framing.
that conversation:
The Dopamine Hit of Outrage: Conversations like this are not meant to exchange information or solve problems. They are an emotional engine fueled by outrage. Complaining about generic "threats"—whether it is robo-dials, or poisonous snakes—triggers a spike of stress hormones and dopamine. It makes the speakers feel alive, urgent, and bonded through shared panic.
The "Trauma-Bonding" Loop: In dysfunctional family dynamics, intimacy is rarely built on vulnerability or genuine interest. Instead, it is built on a shared enemy or a shared catastrophe. When the focus shifts instantly from telemarketers to snakes, it proves the topic doesn't matter; only the high-voltage energy of the complaint matters.
Weaponized Incompetence & Sympathy Harvesting: By cycling through terms like "miserable," "befuddled," and "weak," the narcissist is setting up a baseline where they are immune to accountability. If they are perpetually the victim of the universe (and snakes, and weather), they never have to self-reflect or change.
They are just using words as a pinball machine to keep their emotional arousal high.
There is no main focus, logic, progression, and meaning in the conversation
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Well I can see it and hear it.
I can try to choose to do something else.
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Going for a walk to get outdoors. Will pack the sunblock and some water
Proud of myself for doing a few stretches lately and mindfulness breathing it's not a silver bullet but it's a tiny shift for my stress
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Be back later.
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I am tired of thinking about deficits and problems.
I would like to think about good things that could happen. No guaranteed but could happen.
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Tomorrow I'm going to try to do a group walk in the city not as good as a hike but it's something. I don't know any of these people that's okay it's likely to be mostly women. It's a location I've never been to before so I guess I will just consider it exploration.
Yay me. Finding opportunities on occasion to go socialize.
Last night I went out listened to some music it was a mediocre band and I didn't talk to anybody just sat at the bar with a ten dollar beer I think I gotta stop that. Went to same location a while ago and they had some music that ended up being pretty good one never knows.
But if I am honest that is how I am at music places I rarely talk to anybody. Though sometimes I really do go for the music not for the social scene but clearly it IS a social scene even on the rare rare occasion that the music is stellar people are there mainly I think just to be public but why am I paying attention oh yeah because I'm really socially shy these types of places are not conducive for me to like talk with people but I think a walk with probably mostly women will be very different. Anywho.
I don't have a script about myself. What do I say "I'm a cardboard office worker cog?" --- This isn't self pity it's just well I guess I could just tell people about the hobbies I enjoy and I can just say I am trying to take better care of my health which is NOT a lie I have been doing sport stretching recently and really noticing how the age slowly creeps up.
I'm now really not into yoga for a few reasons. One big one is even if I do yoga at this point it's important to me that it's secular yoga because I am not into the woo woo vague cloud of whatever. Doesn't matter.
It's a little easier for me to stretch in my lower body and harder in the chest area I definitely think the ribs, heart, lungs are stress-tight and I don't want to assume anything. I don't want to assume it's any specific emotion thing but after doing some stretches I did notice a day afterwards for a brief moment like a weird wave of fear or panic well FEAR I think like came through my chest area and it passed -- and I do wonder if some stress is the body bracing against the emotional feeling of fear because that wave sort of made me think I don't feel that kind of wave of fear thing very much.
What am I saying here --- there are different kinds of stress there is vague stress where everything just slowly secretly tightens up or something and it doesn't FEEL like an emotion. --- Versus what I felt the other day where a wave of fear passed. And maybe I just need to kind of learn even this wave of fear thing it was okay that it passed came and went I don't know.
Anyhow. Whaver.
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-- But you know what okay writing that above has helped me in a general way sort of think about how I do - I must share things about myself with other people and I think listing hobbies is good because my hobbies are common female hobbies.
-- I like to hike
-- I like to do crafty stuff
-- I like to cook new recipes
-- explore music places
-- I like to garden (haven't been so this last)
I feel like THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH. Topical stuff in meeting people for the first time I think is preferable.
So if people say anything like tell me about yourself I do feel like this list is fine. I'm sort of a boring person that is fine.
-- I will NOT complain about anything not even my shoe laces. NOTHING.
-- I will NOT vent or stress even if OTHER people do that.
-- I will be SIMPLE
-- I will try to enjoy and talk about the environment because I usually do like being outside.
That is good enough I did social prep.
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Okay actually what I was saying above without having the right words is this:
-- TONIC STRESS
-- EMOTIONAL RELEASE
Different things
------------------------------------------------
Honestly I am really not sure how emotional I should or shouldn't be. It's so much effort to become unfrozen. Oh well.
Generally these days I usually only feel some kind of mild sadness in my chest OR mild excitement looking forward to something like the walk tomorrow - having plans energizes me and I like that feeling of momentum and feeling of just real motivation. Looking forward to something is the feeling of motivation doesn't that almost make motivation an emotion in itself. ---
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Plutchik's Wheel of Emotions—classifies Anticipation as one of the eight primary, basic emotions, right alongside joy, sadness, anger, and fear.
Ah I see it there on the wheel anticipation.
Hum -- frankly it seems smart to try to cultivate anticipation.
I am actively procrastinating too and then is the opposite of positive anticipation.
Anywho.
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"Standing on the bare ground,—my head bathed by the blithe air and uplifted into infinite space,—all mean egotism vanishes. I become a transparent eye-ball; I am nothing; I see all; the currents of the Universal Being circulate through me; I am part or particle of God." R.W.E.
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Really like how you think, and test, and ponder and propose states of mind. Your stuff about outrage was extremely interesting, imo.
I also related a lot to your description/s of anxiety. I had "free-floating anxiety" for many years and just hated it. I know that wave of fear. It's way softer and rarer now, knock wood.
When fear becomes identity, ain't no possibility of good things happening. Or less.
I hope you do walk, keep on circulating with hoomins as you can. No need to criticize yourself for microsocial stuff.
I watched myself under a microscope for so long that I forgot to be present, or forgot how. An anxious body can sound like a pipe organ to the person living in it.
hugs
Hops
It's okay to be a citizen of your own world.
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Thanks Hops.
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- Well I did not get to sleep when I wanted to last night took two hours longer due to disruptions.
- So last night I was feeling gloomy about today.
- I woke up tired. I didn't hear the alarm go off but I got in shower and cut some apple and cheese and left.
- Got on the bus.
- So arrived at the park with the correct name.
- I arrived sort of at the right location but not near to the trailhead I was going to meet other people at.
Booooooo... see this is how it is riding the bus. In a car a person drives for two more minutes and finds the right spot.
- I ended up texting the person said "well I am 40 minutes behind you guys maybe I will see you on the way out.
- I never saw them.
Booooo
- They texted me an hour after I texted them and said blandly "sorry we missed you"
- I would probably do the same thing too maybe except for.... too tired to finish my thought there
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I walked by myself
I looked at the River and thought about Brad Pitt of all things
I saw red dragonflies
I saw a group of swallows flying circles around a willow tree
I saw a struggling bumble bee not sure what was wrong with it so I put it on a flower and it started eating
Decided to stick the bee on the ground and brought it 8 more berry blossoms set on the ground because what else is a bored human going to do
I saw a couple creepy guys
I talked to a couple looking at a fly-catcher bird
I saw two ski jets going down the river that is all I saw on the river
I saw a fish jump
Stared at an old yellow farmhouse across the river next to a lime green barn and though how different this little area is from the other parts of the city
I saw a pitbull try to attack a smaller dog
I sat down and read a book for a long long while
A dog named Olly came up to me so I patted him and he slobbered on me
I finally found the toilet and there were no maps
Well my list is getting dull
On my way out I went by the wrong location again and saw some people setting up an outdoors buffet style BBQ in the park - could it have been a whole Filipino family or something maybe.
Wooo I feel tired and I didn't walk that far.
At least I met pet a dog. Dog pets have become my new goal it seems doable at least.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also while I was at the park my brain is scanning things that should be improved. Why do I do this maybe because I am old. I am thinking the maps are missing the one board they had there wasn't updated since 2025, there was garbage around and they really do need to cut down some of the blackberries because if they don't the river views will be totally obscured and if they have garbage cans in one area why not put them in the main area too. They have it near the dog park of course that makes sense. They actually have an industrial garbage can like one I have never seen before for the dogs.
And there is one particular part of the trail that feels extra sketchy and is really overgrown.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sleepy. Came back ate lunch. Heart feeling heavy due to environment.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I tried it out. Moral of the story is arrive early. But also at least I went.
-
Have seen this book years ago. It's nothing new but reading it again or maybe I never read this one.
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents
Had underlined a few words and lines and clearly part of the book also helps the reader see their own immature behavior and insecurity.
- living life from our own deeper nature instead of focusing on x
- their neglect was not about us it was about them
- efforts at communication never made things better
- the feeling of being alone in the world
- x pg 8
- x pg 9
- EIP don't notice their children's inner experience
- "I had no way of knowing that most people don't feel this way"
- primitive brain likes familiarity
- C of EIP might acquiesce to relationships they don't really want
- you can trust yourself to know when you're emotionally satisfied
- held a low place in the family pecking order
- he saw himself as someone who could be easily overlooked
- isn't it up to me to meet my own emotional needs
- her mother still complains that Natalie never loved her
- Children like Natalie often grow up as little adults... appearing to need practically nothing
- You have prehistoric reasons for not liking to be lonely. (human evolution) pg 23
- blame
- emotional freedom
- differentiated enough to build a life of their own
- rigid or impulsive
- they often over react
- they are subjective not objective
- how they are feeling is more important than what is actually happening
- they don't have enough awareness of other people's individuality
- egocentrism lacks joy and openness
- self preoccupied in an obsessed way
-
I'm tired. I am going to eat some sugar because because indulgence is over-riding health mind.
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I'm tired. I am going to eat some sugar because because indulgence is over-riding health mind.
I feel I want to say something about all that glop but I am not sure what.
The part in the book where the author Lindsay Gibson writes a tidbit about how it is hardwired into people that the group is safer is being alone stands out to me because this is just so the opposite of how I grew up etc. But also it conveys essentially that people have a deep brain-need to be around other people. Our nervous systems were set up to want to be in a group. It's natural for HEALTHY people to feel it's rewarding to be around other people PERIOD like there doesn't have to be a reason the being with BEING WITH part is important in itself.
Like today Ollie's owner was saying how he was not a snuggly dog but that he still always wanted to be with her.
Humans really are tribal packs they just are it's an evolutionary scientific fact.
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I'm doing some weird psychological eating lately and I should write about it at some point.
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Maybe I should read this one though I'm not sure sounds like another generic self help thingy. Maybe I should still read the generic thingies.
Who You Were Meant to Be: A Guide to Finding or Recovering Your Life's Purpose
by Lindsay Gibson
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Whatever I don't care if you judge me or maybe I do.
I go to the foodbank when I can right.
I'm not lying and maybe this is bad but it feels like Christmas and it's not even a particularly nice foodbank.
The reason why it feels like Christmas is because sometimes they have random nicer things.
My entire life would I buy an $8.00 container of yogurt no I wouldn't. Once in a blue moon I find something like this.
But also since the near foodbank is not managed too well they really don't have very many veggies or fruit.
Yes I am still thankful.
They do often have cookies, cake like junk and such.
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When I am grocery shopping and just spending cash I usually just buy what I need for a couple days and maybe some staples. I don't buy soda, ice-cream, potato chips and the like regularly.
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When I go to the foodbank I take everything I might eat and it's rationed out there anyways.
You get only one can of beans AND they will give you a whole expired cake sometimes. It's hit and miss.
I have never seen broccoli, cabbage, carrots at this foodbank not once.
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Look I know I am a grown ass adult.
I always ate healthy in the past.
I'm not eating healthy now. If there is junk food I take it and if it's only a LARGE QTY package because they have nothing else I take that large package. And then once I get it home I don't want to waste it so I am eating all this crap.
And I will sometimes eat things JUST because I would never buy it.
I got this expired giant pastry thing if I were to buy it it would be 25.00 and I would never spend that on junk food
I would buy a 3.00 brownie once a week maybe
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I don't even feel good when I eat this stuff.
Part of me has thoughts like "other people are getting it why should I deprive myself"
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I don't have a ton of food around but what I can pilfer away I do just to have it in case.
I don't weigh that much I am 126.
Also WEIGHT alone is NOT an indicator of health.
I'm not obese BUT I've been doing this a few months now and I do feel I have some skinny flab on my gut and arms.
but also I have been eating like I don't give a crap about cholesterol
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I am eating sometimes from low stimulation and boredom and what else who knows
I can't afford to eat out so it's practical for me to make some food at home and even EAT when I am not hungry
"If I eat now I won't be hungry in one hour"
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I'm not vain or am I. Generally I have felt I am quite ugly but it has never been due to being over weight because I've been a bit control freak about food. Not my whole life.. I quit being a food control freak maybe sometime in my 30's.
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I don't get emotional like about food.
I have an overweight friend and her face lights up and she gets exuberant talking about food.
I haven't been making any new recipes lately not intentionally. I've been doing the make what is on hand thing.
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I didn't have sugar cravings four months ago.
Now I do have sugar cravings.
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The junk food that I have in the refrigerator right now I tasted it and I can throw the rest away I don't have to eat it all in fact I shouldn't this is too much junk!
I am allowed to throw away food still.
I am allowed to eat half a portion and not eat all of it if I am not hungry.
I am not going to starve to death this week it's just not going to happen.
My health still matters even though I am getting older.
I think I do burn lots of calories because it seems as though I can sort of pig out on food and I don't get obese.
But am I making the best choices?
Try it! -- I think this is a good choice.
EAT ALL OF IT DON"T WASTE ANYTHING -- I think this is a bad choice.
"you can't tell me what to do" --- huh look I am even doing defiant eating who knew?
And also "I won't be like you" ------- seriously this is psychological eating
Is this mature?
Whatever. I said it. I am getting junk from the foodbank.
I might drink some water. I might put some stuff into a bag and take it out to the trash and then just go out and walk around because also I can't sit. It's summer the sun has not set. But also I am tired.
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- Rest of the pastry is into the garbage now. DONE
- Roasted some yams for some other day. DONE
Finished with the junk food for a few more days at least.
- Have raisins which also represent junk food but I don't like them much. Telling myself they are already in handy little prepackaged bags so they are kind of a good emergency grab and go. Ugh.
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I feel sad about how many struggles you go through, Hippy.
It ain't right.
Then again, your descriptions of your times outdoors make me think of you as rich. Many, many layers of sight and recognition and joy at beauty.
I've also picked up the occasional bumblebee. Every animal awes me. Wonder.
Makes me mad that people who need fresh produce most can't afford it. Furious.
Well, I understand about sugar, too. I banished it from my house some years ago. Now I don't crave it any more. I do feel like crap after eating it, so I don't often. It doesn't feel like comfort or a reward, it feels like heroin.
So on we old ladies stumble and fumble but we still see. Breathe. Move. Rest. Watch. Wait.
hugs
Hops
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Feeding just one of me... a person CAN buy veggies and protein and not break their budget. I don't need 2# of carrots - even though they keep pretty well in the fridge. A head of broccoli will give me 2-3 meals. Celery doesn't last so long, but a person can dehydrate it and add to soups. A chuck roast is more than one meal for me, so I cut it and freeze to use in any number of other kinds of meals - steak subs for instance.
My current "treat" for myself - is a smaller pkg of grocery deli cookies. Yeah, I can make cookies but I don't really want the oven on this time of year.
Buy wraps instead of bread; stir fries stretch the meat over several meals and can make a good lunch or dinner, in a wrap. Always buy a larger portion of meat and repackage/freeze for another meal. Breakfast - or brunch - we eat a lot of sausage, hashbrown, onion/peppers and eggs. Mostly we eat this in a breakfast bowl but would also go in a wrap. Leftovers get eaten for lunch if I make a casserole.
The only thing we don't buy much of is fruit. Maybe fried apples. I cut up a batch of strawberries for B and I and sugared them... and we just don't eat them. Headed for the trash tomorrow. Been in the fridge longer than a week. Might start buying those little pkgs of melons though. The squash I though was still good for last night's dinner wasn't. Matching the shopping list to meal planning is an art. I'm still practicing!
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Well, I understand about sugar, too. I banished it from my house some years ago. Now I don't crave it any more. I do feel like crap after eating it, so I don't often. It doesn't feel like comfort or a reward, it feels like heroin.
So on we old ladies stumble and fumble but we still see. Breathe. Move. Rest. Watch. Wait.
hugs
Hops
Yep the sugar thing is definitely an impulse.
Eh don't worry. I am mainly commenting on my habits to get them out of my head and on paper so to speak. But yes it's sort of an adaptive habit not a natural choice habit.
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- went to church
- late but I am dragging today
- sat in back and I read a self help book
- the guest minister guy said something something "father, son, brothers" something something
- yes I am thinking how it's not "mother, daughter, sisters"
- It's not emotional feminist freak out to calmly notice this AND
- and the guy talks in a loud voice but with a fake cry quiver also and my brain registers it as weird
(ape males use loud vocalizations as a dominance signal) that is what i am thinking as I sit there
- afterwards I talk to a very nice very old couple I never met before and they make me laugh
- I just go to church because I like the building I like the idea of a place to worship
- I just go to church to talk to people I enjoy it
- I enjoy laughing and that is why I was there this morning
- am not trying to redeem my soul
- I don't view Christ as the savior or whatever
- Mathematically according to the sermon this makes me the anti-christ
- I mean look they are essentially saying everybody who is not Christian is this antichrist thing
😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈😈
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Also found a pagan event to go to locally it's far off timewise
If I am available I will try it.
Shall I try to give a sermon to the pagans and tell them non-pagans are the vile Anti-pagans
nope pagans don't do that
and yes I am too old for paganism
oh well
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Matching the shopping list to meal planning is an art. I'm still practicing!
It sounds like you are doing a great job of planning it out. And yes I agree for really hot days the no oven or no cook options are nice to have.
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I'm still slowly reading through this adult children of emotionally immature parents book. Likely what I had seen years ago was adult children of alcoholics booklet similar but smaller.
At first I didn't want to read the little stories in here. Now that I am reading it every single page is relevant to me.
AND Also it becomes pretty obvious that I too am likely very emotionally immature. I don't think in the EXACT same way my parents do but similar-ish. Bad habits!
Something in this book I notice is that it says EIP usually often want to be the center of attention. I find that in-person I get uncomfortable sometimes when people focus on me too much but this I think is also part of the emotional immaturity thing.
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AI Summary of info looked up:
1. The Theory of Structural Dissociation
The Key Researchers: Onno van der Hart, Ellert Nijenhuis, and Kathy Steele.
The Core Idea: They explicitly address the "forced personality role" you brought up. Their work shows that chronic childhood trauma and neglect literally split the developing personality.
The Breakdown: They identify that a survivor splits into an Apparently Normal Part (ANP)—the cold, flat, polite, functioning adult shell that goes to work and handles mechanics—and an Emotional Part (EP), which holds the hidden, frozen terror, rage, and shame of the childhood years. They argue that this isn't a "feeling," but a structural alteration of the brain and personality architecture designed purely to ensure physical survival at the cost of actual life.
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2. Neurobiology of Neglect & The "Freeze" State
The Key Researchers: Dr. Martin Teicher (Harvard Medical School) and Dr. Stephen Porges.
The Core Idea: They prove that emotional neglect is a physical, visible brain injury. Teicher’s neurological imaging shows that severe childhood neglect leads to the literal underdevelopment of the corpus callosum (the bridge connecting the left and right brain) and the pathways that regulate social behavior.
When the environment is constantly unsafe or neglectful, the nervous system drops into a permanent "Freeze" collapse state. In this state, the biological wiring required for social engagement is physically turned off by the brain to conserve energy. You do not want to socialize because your biology reads people as inherent threats, not rewards.
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3. Chronological Grief & "Disenfranchised Loss"
The Key Researcher: Dr. Pauline Boss and Critical Trauma Studies.
The Core Idea: They look at the structural reality of missing out on decades of life. Boss coined the term "Ambiguous Loss," which applies heavily here.
The Breakdown: Because this loss lacks a funeral or a tangible physical marker, it is a form of disenfranchised grief—grief the medical system and society do not recognize. The intersection of Disability Studies and Trauma Studies (such as the work of Daniel R. Morrison and Monica J. Casper) directly addresses how socio-medical responses completely fail survivors by treating trauma as a temporary event rather than an ongoing, invisible developmental disability.
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1- worked at fruit market
2 - worked at cafe
3 - worked at drop ship gift company
4 - worked at a front desk
5 - worked at a bank doing a temp job
6 - front desk admin for one year then quit
7 - worked in admin
8 - same company more admin just with a promotion
9 - went back to 5 because I wanted a flexible schedule
10 - research position
11 - worked in plumbing office front desk
12 - worked as cashier
13 - worked at call center about 5 years
14 - same job(s) different owner- laid off - was going to stay at this boring predictable job forever
15 - receptionist more or less
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You can see I have no career it's been a series of crap admin jobs with no skills.
Probably some temping stuff in there I don't remember.
Oh I worked at Pikes Place Market for a few weeks. Also stupid joke of a job.
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These are not good jobs. I think rent has doubled in ten years or so. I don't want to complain about it I'm just trying to gauge my apathy and burn out.
I'm not lazy I'm de-energized. I am tired of all the instability on multiple levels.
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1- worked at fruit market (I didn't like one of the managers) (owner liked me)
2 - worked at cafe (I wasn't liked)
3 - worked at drop ship gift company (was seasonal)
4 - worked at a front desk (was a temp job)
5 - worked at a bank doing a temp job
6 - front desk admin for one year then quit (some people liked me some people didn't)
7 - worked in admin (managers liked me coworkers didn't)
8 - same company more admin just with a promotion (managers liked me coworkers didn't)
9 - went back to 5 because I wanted a flexible schedule same as above
10 - research position (co-workers liked me manager neutral)
11 - worked in plumbing office front desk (one particular older female coworker didn't like me)
12 - worked as cashier (I didn't like standing on my legs for so long)
13 - worked at call center about 5 years (company was large enough that it was easy to hide at my desk for 5 years)
14 - same job(s) different owner- laid off - was going to stay at this boring predictable job forever
15 - receptionist more or less (didn't fit in with coworkers playing pokemon at work etc)
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I've had a lot of jobs where I either didn't like the situation or I was quite unliked.
The job that was most tolerable to me was the one where there was just so many people it was easy to disappear and get good work reviews. It wasn't that I was liked it was that I was tolerated and I just minded my own business. There was also no way to fake productivity at that job.
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Not only am I tired of the general instability and low pay of jobs. I'm tired of having to deal with work dynamics and also I am bad at socializing anyways.
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"Negative egocentrism [is] characterized by a negative and pessimistic conversational style, talking about one’s problems, and displaying a general disinterest in others' contributions to the interaction."
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Date Registered:August 06, 2009, 07:33:21 PM
Been talking about the same shit forever.
Tomorrow same shit.
Next week same shit.
Next Month same shit.
Next decade another decade of same shit.
This is the natural structure of my life.
I'm totally not going to try to fix or change anything at all.
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1. The Power Threat Meaning Framework (PTMF)Published publicly in the UK by the British Psychological Society, this framework was specifically designed to replace psychiatric checklists. Its core argument is that symptoms like depression, anxiety, and dissociation are not "chemical imbalances"—they are logical responses to power imbalances and interpersonal threats (abuse).The Argument: They openly state that handing a victim a pill changes the question from "What happened to you?" to "What is wrong with you?" This effectively protects the abuser or the broken system by putting the pathology entirely inside the victim's brain.
2. Dr. Bessel van der Kolk (The Body Keeps the Score)One of the most famous trauma researchers in the world has pointedly and publicly attacked the pharmaceutical-industrial complex for this exact issue.The Argument: He has repeatedly stated that Big Pharma poured billions into convincing the public that complex trauma responses are just molecular glitches. He argues that blocking a traumatized person's panic or numbness with chemicals allows society to ignore the child abuse, incest, and domestic violence that physically altered that person's nervous system in the first place.
3. Dr. Joanna Moncrieff and the Critical Psychiatry NetworkDr. Moncrieff, a prominent British psychiatrist and researcher, has spent her career publicly poking at the drug companies. She led the massive study that debunked the "serotonin chemical imbalance" theory of depression.The Argument: She argues that psychiatric drugs do not cure diseases; they act as psychoactive numbing agents. By prescribing them to people in miserable, oppressive, or abusive life situations, the medical establishment is essentially using chemical sedation to help people "tolerate the intolerable," masking social and familial problems rather than addressing them.
4. Investigative Journalism: Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker This investigative book heavily criticized the skyrocketing rates of psychiatric drugging.The Argument: Whitaker documents how the pharmaceutical industry marketed drugs as magic bullets for internal defects, which effectively shifted the blame away from bad environments, childhood trauma, and severe isolation. The pill treats the body's alarm system as if it is broken, ignoring the fact that the alarm is going off because the environment is actually dangerous.
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OUCH, Hippy.
That's a painful list, especially for someone as intelligent and creative as you are.
I can relate to all the burnout, and the difficulty tolerating the massive boredom of those sorts of positions. Sometimes we just can't fit the mode, even when we try.
I think for some brains, a switch just flips and we can't undo how we feel.
I don't know a perfect answer, but hope you can continue to find some relief in therapy or perhaps diagnosis/meds.
You should not be wasted.
hugs
Hops
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- So tonight I went to a craft gathering thing I had never been to before.
- There was a range of ages
- The table layout was not conducive to meeting people
- It was a long skinny table so I ended up just talking to the lady in front of me mostly listening
- She seemed jittery and wasn't the most relaxing person to be around
- She said she has ADHD
- The vibe was nerdy not arty
- I was mostly just quiet
- I somewhat wanted to ask people what their particular project was but I also didn't feel like it
- I made some throw away thing from random scraps and I hid it at the venue so I didn't have to bring home
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- I tried a new group of people
- I don't feel like i learned anything and only feel like I met the person directly in front of me
- I did arrive about 20 mins late
Was it worth my time I feel like not really. It WAS social exposure. It was kinda unproductive feeling for me.
They were openly bashing Christian churches which somewhat doesn't bother me as I have reservations about religion as well though it didn't seem to cross anybody's mind that someone in the group might have some positive association.
Nobody seemed very curious about each other. Like they didn't seem to be trying to get to know eachother or MAYBE they were idk. I sort of tuned them out when they were bragging about chemistry courses as if they were still college nerds but they're older.
The way I see it is why go out of my way to commute and arrive at a location when I can do dumb throw away crafts anywhere.
I didn't socialize very well but the whole thing was low pressure but also I felt somewhat invisible which normally doesn't bother me but this was meant to be a social event so what exactly is the point.
Being social really is an art form.
I'm not sure what my take away is from this.
I would rather be doing other things.
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So i've tried to go out and meet people. Been trying for a few months.
The "chosen family" thing seems to be a myth.
I did make one new friend.
But I've also come to realize I have to end my friendship with a different old ex-friend.
This process I had to think about a while. When I was younger I didn't think about friendships they just came or went like the ocean tide.
Being that I now see how difficult it is to meet new people and not just meet people but turn that into potential friendship it's not an easy thing. It takes a lot of time, routine, effort.
Well being that I am reading more about "emotional maturity" etc. and after an old friend flaked on me a few times. I've realized I've put more time into that particular friendship than I should have. She also did something recently which was sort of a hurtful betrayal in a way. I thought about it a lot. I decided to not say anything to her about it as that would also be more emotional labor and she wouldn't understand or likely not even care what I am talking about anyways.
So so far after months of trying to go out more I made one friend and lost one friend.
People my age are really not making a big effort to make friends because they're busy they have careers and families.
And then there are the people who are hyper social. And I'm not sure they are looking for friends maybe they are looking for entertainments. idk.
I guess I learned that investing too much in a friendship can be a bad thing if it's one sided effort. And it's okay to just move on. Said ex-friend probably will not miss me anyhow.
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- adult children of immature parents starts to get new age at the point it talks about the real true self
AI summary:
The actual research breaks down into two main conclusions:
The True Self is a Cognitive Illusion: Empirical research confirms that the concept of a hidden, objective "true self" is a psychological fiction rather than a measurable biological or neurological entity. Data shows the "true self" is actually a cognitive shortcut—a belief system people use to make sense of social identity, rather than an underlying factual structure.
The "Goodness" Bias: Studies by researchers like Nina Strohminger and colleagues demonstrate that people only claim to see a "true self" when a person's behavior changes for the better. When a person acts negatively or destructively, observers attribute it to external factors or a "surface self"; when they act positively, it is labeled as their "essence". This reveals the true self concept is simply a moral projection used by the brain to track cooperative social partners, not an objective reality.
Greater Good Science Center - University of California, Berkeley
Origin of the Theory: The distinction between a "true self" and a "false self" originated with mid-20th-century psychoanalysts, primarily Donald Winnicott. Winnicott did not define the true self as a mystical entity, but rather as a child's spontaneous, unconditioned physical and emotional reactions. The "false self" develops purely as a defensive, highly compliant survival strategy to appease erratic, emotionally unavailable, or demanding parents.
Psychological Scales & Instruments Database
The Modern Scientific View (Cognitive Load): Modern cognitive science reframes this dynamic away from hidden essences and views it through the lens of cognitive expenditure:
Role Self (High Load): A state of high mental exhaustion where you are actively monitoring, filtering, and performing to maintain safety or manage impressions in an unstable environment.
True Self (Low Load): A state of low friction that occurs simply when an individual feels safe enough to drop the defensive performance and stop actively managing their environment.
References:
Strohminger, N., Knobe, J., & Newman, G. (2017). The True Self: A Psychological Concept Distinct From the Self. Perspectives on Psychological Science.
Strohminger, N., & Nichols, S. (2014). The Essential Moral Self. Cognition.
Winnicott, D. W. (1960). Ego Distortion in Terms of True and False Self. The Maturational Processes and the Facilitating Environment.
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The biggest change to my sense of self, which took years to see, was when I made one decision: To pay attention, intentionally, to how I talk to "myself."
I was lacerating myself with every failure I could think of. Critical thoughts would hit me first thing in the morning.
I tried one day to intentionally visualize a kind, sort of maternal inner friend. I'd push thoughts like: compassionate voice, you're better at this than you were before, you're doing the best you can with what you've got, etc etc. Everything passes, this is weather. After a while I started to "feel" the company of that kind presence and worrying about identity started to fade.
hugs
Hops
PS -- After my Poet drama, I was particularly impressed with how gently and undramatically you made your choice to release an unsupportive friendship. I wound up telling myself: Don't count them, just be with the ones who leave me with some good feelings. I can find more in time.
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Well yes Hops I suppose gentle self-talking is a good thing.
I'm always frustrated with myself I suppose.
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Hops, I felt some twitchy nerves of drama inside me related to the ex-friend. I had an internal battle with myself over it.
It's just that I've gotten so old and I think I don't take friendship for granted anymore.
I had immature feelings. I had disappointment. I had some shock. I asked myself am I over-reacting.
The choices seemed to be
- keep going act like everything is okay
- be mad and tell her
- say nothing and fizzle
- be medium chill if I have to
I think the acting like everything is okay is not okay right now. Being mad at her is pointless. I think the not responding say nothing and fizzle and medium chill if I have to is the way to go.
Not being mad at her and trying to tell her my thoughts or feelings would be too much emotional labor on my part. At some point she will realize she only has two friends she hasn't seen since her college years and maybe they text a couple times a year. Not my problem. I feel like friends really have to make effort once in a while. And I also should make some effort.
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Hippy,
Imo, there's no such thing as "immature" feelings (another way to criticize yourself). They are just feelings that every human experiences, a lot or a little, at different times and in different situations in life.
Identifying what a feeling is, is valuable. Judging it, less so, imo.
I also respect your recognition of the "emotional labor" component in any relationship, and how you need/want to keep it more balanced. Big bravo!
hugs
Hops
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Wrote a response. Website or internet did not save it.
Had written that I think I disagree and why etc.
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Went out this evening and was running late because I had to eat and bad timing etc. It was a little art get-together thing. It's the second time I have gone to it and it feels like the dregs including me I suppose. Yes I am being "judgemental" though it's a real observation.
There was nobody sitting across from me at first & they had fewer rando supplies this time. Eventually same woman shows up again. On one hand it's nice that this is the same person that showed up before on the other hand she stressed me out again being around her strange frantic energy. And as I am sitting there even though I have GAD I am thinking wow so I guess I am the calm one here. The lady to my direct left who I had been talking to earlier says to the frantic woman that she seemed really "stressed" directly to her and the comment seems like a bird that flew right past her.
At some point I am hoping I can't get a disease if she accidentally spits in my eye. (I know weird though but hey it's the public and the dregs)
I'm glad that I am not the only person who noticed this woman's strange frantic energy. She wouldn't stop talking and she seemed to not make any progress on her project while being constantly frustrated and undecided about how to make the thing that was her idea to make. She asked me for reassurance and I said "only you have the vision in your head I have no idea." I guess I am not helpful but I am sort of liking my not helpful self these days.
In the end I was glad I showed up about 40 minutes late.
I talked to four new people that I hadn't talked to the previous time.
This thing, these people, this event, it can not be my chosen family. Fact is the two people that talked about family there already have one and are not needing friends as far as I can tell.
Oh well. At least I went out that was sort of the point.
Everybody who has pretty good social skills they don't think about it and they just have a life somehow.
Then there is whatever this social event is.
I would rather be doing something else. Whatever my evening was sort of wasted.
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I've always resisted the social pressure "to be social"; it's just another "should" applied to everyone when "one size doesn't fit all". Apparently, inclusivity doesn't accept that some people are introverted and that some of us are more introverted than others. Who sez I have to like everyone as well?
I really can't stand being "encouraged" cajoled or pressured into social activities when all I want to do is sit on my front porch and wait for the hummingbirds to visit... and chat with B, as things occur to us - not just fill the space with noise. About nothing in particular.
But that's me. I know a lot of people enjoy social stuff; Hol is one of those. She will just wither up and get bitter if she doesn't go places & hang with people. I CAN have fun in groups - but not on a frequent or regular basis. And generally, I'm selective about the people in the group. I just don't care or have opinions about stuff most people talk about. So I'm a wallflower. Looking for a real one on one conversation about the universal themes of humanity or their personal observations/thoughts about things.
And at my age - why CAN'T I just be left alone to have peace & quiet and do just as like?
Sorry Hippy; this is all about me. But your experience pinged a complicated chord over here in me.
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Introverts need that quality to be understood and respected, I agree.
For me, because I live alone without supportive family in my life, being alone too much seems to contribute to or worsen underlying depression. Even though I gravitate to spending my time alone.
I think if I had a partner or family member nearby to watch fireflies with, I would not participate in as many social things. But I don't, and have learned the hard way that if I go without sufficient human interaction, my mental health slides.
It's annoying, often, that choosing which things to invest my time in, feels so like WORK. But if I trudge on and "feel the fear and do it anyway" -- an adequate level of social interaction does in time lift my mood.
Everybody's threshold for just enough, or too much, varies. Ain't no harm in experiementing to find out what level works best for the individual.
Amber, I admire that you've done a deep dive into your own nature for years, and still have love in your life, and select friendships, and family connection too. I remember when you were overwhelmed by Hol's demands, and how skillfully you use assertiveness plus analysis to claim your own oxygen.
OT: I've started to think that part of the reason I let the house's condition collapse this spring was that I was unconsciously building a wall, behind which I was rebalancing. Sure has helped that I now have BN in my life. That friendship is thawing me. I still haven't invited him over and he's put exactly zero pressure on me.
hugs
Hops
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I've always resisted the social pressure "to be social"; it's just another "should" applied to everyone when "one size doesn't fit all". Apparently, inclusivity doesn't accept that some people are introverted and that some of us are more introverted than others. Who sez I have to like everyone as well?
I really can't stand being "encouraged" cajoled or pressured into social activities when all I want to do is sit on my front porch and wait for the hummingbirds to visit... and chat with B, as things occur to us - not just fill the space with noise. About nothing in particular.
But that's me. I know a lot of people enjoy social stuff; Hol is one of those. She will just wither up and get bitter if she doesn't go places & hang with people. I CAN have fun in groups - but not on a frequent or regular basis. And generally, I'm selective about the people in the group. I just don't care or have opinions about stuff most people talk about. So I'm a wallflower. Looking for a real one on one conversation about the universal themes of humanity or their personal observations/thoughts about things.
And at my age - why CAN'T I just be left alone to have peace & quiet and do just as like?
Sorry Hippy; this is all about me. But your experience pinged a complicated chord over here in me.
I'm just trying new things out to see what happens.
I don't have a front porch, hummingbirds or a "B" or a "Hol" -- so that is why I end up at this thing because it seems to be the only thing going on that I can get to and doesn't cost me fees as a consumer consuming something.
Of course yes anybody with a porch, birds, and "abbreviated names" has no reason to make a 1) commute 2) interact with strangers who have nothing better to do and nowhere better to go.
Oh well maybe I need to just embrace my own dreg-ness.
If i do it enough perhaps I will desensitize myself like a horse that walks in car traffic.
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Introverts need that quality to be understood and respected, I agree.
For me, because I live alone without supportive family in my life, being alone too much seems to contribute to or worsen underlying depression. Even though I gravitate to spending my time alone.
I think if I had a partner or family member nearby to watch fireflies with, I would not participate in as many social things. But I don't, and have learned the hard way that if I go without sufficient human interaction, my mental health slides.
It's annoying, often, that choosing which things to invest my time in, feels so like WORK. But if I trudge on and "feel the fear and do it anyway" -- an adequate level of social interaction does in time lift my mood.
Everybody's threshold for just enough, or too much, varies. Ain't no harm in experiementing to find out what level works best for the individual.
Amber, I admire that you've done a deep dive into your own nature for years, and still have love in your life, and select friendships, and family connection too. I remember when you were overwhelmed by Hol's demands, and how skillfully you use assertiveness plus analysis to claim your own oxygen.
OT: I've started to think that part of the reason I let the house's condition collapse this spring was that I was unconsciously building a wall, behind which I was rebalancing. Sure has helped that I now have BN in my life. That friendship is thawing me. I still haven't invited him over and he's put exactly zero pressure on me.
hugs
Hops
There are introverts who can socialize but they decide not to.
Then there are the insecure, unskilled, fearful types who hide out and they also get labeled introverted.
Thing is if someone is or isn't an introvert at the same time social skills have value.
Also I think people are tribal animals and it's unhealthy to be fearfulverted. It's immature to be fearfulverted. Because you see in the case of fearfulvertedness one is not making a choice so much as following the path of least resistance.
It feels like a segment of my brain just fell asleep I took an allergy med. Okay so what am I saying. idk
Spending time alone was forced on me in childhood so I don't know what my "true" nature is. I always defaulted to what was easiest and doing nothing about it was easiest and explaining it away was easiest and lying to myself was easiest.
I'm just surprised that so many people make friends effortlessly.
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Today I managed to go get an xray of my foot. It's not interesting really. I've had something going on with that foot since high school basically when I was trying to do martial arts class some dude punched my foot. It never healed right. Then I got a second injury to that foot. It creates a type of chronic low level pain that I ignore.
Thing is I had fantasy hopes of being able to hike more this summer. So far it's not really happening. In any case I have insurance at the moment and I had the time so I thought I should go. It's not a big thing and I am sort of wondering like do I deserve to care about a small thing. In any case I got that done today and it ended up being easier than I expected once I got past the unhelpful receptionist who said "I had to wait" and all that so I asked her "do you happen to know what the wait time is? She called the dept and they said 10-20 minutes. I guess I am an old lady and I have to manage people. I have to ask "Am I checked in?" They say "no you are not" And then I have to say "can you check me in" blah blah blah whatever.
Apparently lead aprons are outdated now and they don't use them anymore - see I'm getting old.
I feel like I didn't do much today and yet I feel MORE MOTIVATED when I get stuff done. It breaks my inertia.
Still slowly reading this book the adult children of emotionally immature parents. I'm under-lining stuff. I've torn the book apart into segments because I didn't want to haul around a whole book smashed into my purse. It looks so destroyed now. The previous owner can know I've gotten every ounce and page and word of usefulness out of this book though. Thank bezelbum for second-hand self help books.
It's night time. I poured a beer. Apart from the lekking males in their loud cars and the fireworks out the window it's sort of peaceful. Maybe I will go to sleep around midnight. Whatever it's a holiday.
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I'm sort of desperate for art projects. Had gone to an art museum type thing a while back and they had a public making art session going on that I accidentally walked into. Once the teacher lady got out of my way I went into like a tunnel vision of art -focus. This must be something leftover from my childhood. Maybe it's weird. I made a few little art things there with their silly supplies and went home feeling desperate DESPERATELY in need of making stuff. I just don't need STUFF. I have no place for stuff. I have no space for the STUFF required to make stuff.
Anyhow. That day of course when I got home I was trying to figure out how to make larger versions of the project and how to make the tools to make the larger versions etc etc.
What is my point. Today I came across a couple instructional patterns for making little stuffed toys. I left the info behind. I'm not hoarding creative supplies. There was actually a free mini sewing machine I had seen a while back and I passed it up thinking something was probably wrong with it.
Anywho. I want to make something. I don't care if it's making socks, if it's making useless bird houses, lampshades, toys, sigh ---
It actually stresses me out. It's like being constipated. Should I admit to that. Well I did.
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I went on a papier mache binge and made fantasy busts of people.
I loved doing it and felt joyful the entire time.
Used a big bottle as the base with some crumply brown paper and a bit of wire.
I recommend not making your own mache though, roaches loved mine, LOL.
Birdhouses are not useless! CHIRRRRPPP! I need a couple bat houses to help with skeeters.
hugs and sorry about your foot trouble,
Hops
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Paper Mache is pretty exciting Hops. Was looking at some just a few days ago dogs and frogs.
I've never made it. Did you keep the busts?