Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Confused2 on January 10, 2005, 02:59:06 PM
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Hi,
I would like some feedback.
I met a man last year and had an intense, beautiful romance with him that led to our engagement. It had a fairy tale quality to it. I was convinced I'd met the man I'd waited for my entire life (I'm 46 and have never been married). He swept me off my feet with the most beautiful, romantic love letters I'd EVER seen. He proposed, sold his home, moved to my city, hosted a big engagement party for family and friends. We had a date and a venue for our wedding. Then, he broke it off very abruptly and moved away with almost no explanation. He utterly broke my heart. The break up was last May and I have had essentially no contact with him for all of these months. I have been in a lot of pain because I never really understood why he left me. He gave me a long list of ridiculous excuses but they really were not believable at all.
I had his email password and have been reading his web-based email since he left me. I have learned so much! For one thing, he is still hung up on a woman he used to be with, a woman who is no longer available as she is with another man. For another, he is exploring a transgendered lifestyle. He has been a cross dresser for years and I knew that before he proposed but it didn't seem to be a problem because we were so in love and he didn't seem to need to dress when he was with me. But he is now wanting to be a t-girl (a man who dresses as a woman but still has male genitalia and has no intention of getting a sex change operation) and have sex with other t-girls . He actually wants to be a transgendered porn star! He wants to get breast implants. The whole thing is SO bizarre.
I guess what I am confused about is, WHY can I not get 100% over him given I have all this new information about him? You'd think I would be relieved that we didn't actually get married. And I AM. But I still think about him all the time. The love I got from him in the beginning was SOOOOO amazing, and I miss those feelings so much. I just can't seem to fully move on.
Any advice?
Confused
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Goodness, what an interesting time you've had! Having access to his email must feel a bit strange, reading all that? It sounds like a lot to take in. But I bet you think having this knowledge is better than not? And you're sure it's his email and him writing?
I don't think there is anything wrong or abnormal with missing those loving feelings. If you had something which made you feel food, you're going to miss it when it's gone. Even if you know it wasn't 'real'.
Maybe one day you'll wake up and think you've had enough of living with the memory of those good feelings and instead you'll work out some way to replace them with good feelings that don't rely on a fantasy.
The question is what do you envisage moving on to? What would you like?
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I think sometimes it can be hard to distinguish whether it is actually the person you missed or the feelings that they gave you. Everyone wants to be loved like that, and when it is genuine it is the best thing in the world (I imagine anyway, having had it from an N I know how good it can feel, but not how genuine!). Maybe ask yourself if you just want those feelings again? From what you have found out it is unlikely to be the man you are missing, just what he gave you for the time you were together. Just believ in yourself and you will find someone who can give you all the love without breaking your heart.
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Hi Confused2,
The info you've obtained doesn't make any difference. You were already aware that he was a cross dresser. That is a big red flag about gender ID confusion, fantasy worlds, etc. These are just extra details about fundamental issues you already knew (on some level) were problematic.
No one ever gets over a lost love 100%. That person remains a part of us always. But we can get over them about 75% otherwise we're cheating ourselves out of enjoying life.
The first step is to stop reading his emails and focus on your own life.
bunny
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Thanks to all who replied. I always hate it when people tell me to stop reading his email because, I know they are right! But, imagine if you were me and had this unbelievable opportunity to learn all these things about the man you were madly in love with who dumped you so brutally. On top of that, his life is sooooo unusual that it is incredibly difficult to stop tracking it. (And, yes, I am 100% positive that this is his email and he has written all these letters. I even have photos of him dressed as a woman, but with a big erection sticking out from under his dress!)
Bunny, for whatever reason, I DID NOT think his cross dressing was a serious problem. I think it is because he felt so straight to me and we had the best sex ever. Plus, he was affirming me so completely that I just dismissed it. Plus, he told me that he felt no need to cross dress since meeting me. Also, I am pretty open minded and this just didn't faze me. (The next time, if there is a next time, this will be a HUGE red flag!)
I really appreciate everybody's comments about missing the feelings he evoked in me and NOT the man himslef. I researched NPD quite extensively after he left and he is definitely some level of N. I even talked to his ex wife and sent her an article or two about it and she affirmed that it sounded like him to a T. I KNOW he is a fake and with the gender confusion on top of it he is NOT someone I would want to be involved with. Rationally, I am really clear and really over it. Emotionally, it is a different story. I am so addicted to following his life for three reasons: 1. It's so interesting and strange to have this opportunity; 2. His behavior is so very different from the norm, and I am a mental health professional and naturally interested in these issues; and 3. I don't really wish him well and hope to witness his life come apart for the pain and humiliation he put me through. (Not very evolved I know, but I am being honest.)
Thank you for all the feedback. What a great forum this is!
Confused2
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Goodness, what an interesting time you've had! Having access to his email must feel a bit strange, reading all that? It sounds like a lot to take in. But I bet you think having this knowledge is better than not?
One more thing: YES. I know that having had access to his email has been most helpful. It has kept me from contacting him. And, it has helped me to understand why he really couldn't marry me (he would never tell me the truth about his gender stuff). So overall, it was a good thing. And I am getting over it slowly. I just wish I could find a relationship that feels as wonderful as that one did, AND be real. Is that too much to ask?
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Hi,
I would like some feedback.
I met a man last year and had an intense, beautiful romance with him that led to our engagement. It had a fairy tale quality to it. I was convinced I'd met the man I'd waited for my entire life (I'm 46 and have never been married). He swept me off my feet with the most beautiful, romantic love letters I'd EVER seen.
Any advice?
Confused
As you describe this relationship, you were swept off your feet by the man of your dreams, like in a fairy tale. But then he broke your heart, and left you in a lot of pain.
When you asked him why, you couldn't believe his reasons.
First it was too good to believe, then it was too unbelievable to believe? Either way it is not real life; just a fantasy in one form or another.
But, not wanting fantasy, you are still searching for something you can believe in; his reasons; the reasons why you were not good enough, after waiting all those years.
You cannot forget how good he made you feel. But you do seem to have forgotten that he hurt you, and broke your heart? In a situation where a person can treat you like that, why do you care what his reasons were? In my view, you need to take the focus off him, and put it back onto yourself. Never mind what his reasons are; they are his concern. The important thing is to heal your own hurt, and to recognise that you deserve better.
It is not easy to recover from a broken relationship, and I don't mean to make it sound like it is. But I agree with Bunny that you gain nothing by reading his emails now. Try instead to find out what you want, in real life, and the kind of person you are, and want to become. That is far more important, imo.
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Rationally, I am really clear and really over it. Emotionally, it is a different story. I am so addicted to following his life for three reasons: 1. It's so interesting and strange to have this opportunity; 2. His behavior is so very different from the norm, and I am a mental health professional and naturally interested in these issues; and 3. I don't really wish him well and hope to witness his life come apart for the pain and humiliation he put me through. (Not very evolved I know, but I am being honest.)
Confused2
I commend you for your honesty, but this is really disturbing me now, and I think I will not be able to continue after this one point.
If you are a mental health professional, do you not see that what you are doing has to be unethical? It may or may not be against a code of practice - I do not know about that. But surely it is not right? For someone who would not know that it is wrong, then maybe you could err by mistake. But if you are a professional, then there is no mistake. You know that what you are doing is wrong; it amounts to stalking, imo. However 'interested' you are, you have no right to watch what he is doing, as if he were a goldfish in a bowl.
If I thought that any mental health professional I have dealings with were capable of doing what you are doing, I would run a mile. I really would.
Sorry. I cannot continue. Issues of trust involved.
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October,
This is the danger of posting brief information without all the details. What he did to me is as unethical as it gets. Because of how highly dishonest, unkind, manipulative and unethical he was toward me, I have dehumanized him. He is not entitled to any ethical treatment from me whatsoever. I could care less about his privacy.
I would not do this to a friend, a client, a family member or even a complete stranger. It WOULD be completely unethical. In this case, all that really matters to me is MY healing. This is someone who had zero regard for my feelings, violated my trust to the utmost, and lied about me to others every chance he got. I owe him nothing. In fact, he is VERY lucky I haven't extracted the kind of revenge that I have the power to extract. I have decided NOT to "out" him to his friends, family, and employer. I would feel too guilty if he committed suicide or something along those lines, because of my actions.
I have two friends who are also counselors. They know ALL the details of my story. They have advised me to stop reading his email, for my sake, and only when I feel really done with it. This man is an amoral Narcissist and hurt me incredibly. You really think I should be worried about violating him??? Well, I'm not.
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Hello Confused2,
Welcome to the board -- where you'll get lots of feedback. Some you may wanna' hear and some not. However, my experience thus far is that Dr. G has established a very caring and supportive community.
I'm not going to address professional ethics because my sense is that you came here on a personal level with a war story, a broken heart, and in search of compassion. October may have a point about the duty of one's profession and being held to a higher standard but that's not my call nor purpose in responding to your post.
I think in due time you will stop reading his e-mails because it ultimately is hurting you and curtailing your ability to move on and heal. In the first few weeks after my ex-fiance and I broke up, I still had the password to his e-mail account and, you guessed it, read his e-mails. It was low but I felt lower than low. And I suddenly went from having this man occupy most of my life to no contact whatsoever; a complete void. He must have wised up and changed the password. So I can't say it was virtue or self restraint that made me stop.
With my professional contacts I have methods of how to stay abreast of his new life (still hard for me to ponder -- his life without me in it -- much less accept). Even a private investigator client of mine offered to track him. I must say that it was tempting but I have refrained from pursuing much, if any, information. I was tempted to head to his new city and place of residence while vacationing over the holidays but bypassed his overpass, so to speak, and kept driving home (feeling a bit victorious because I didn't give in and succeeded with my plan). For me this was a baby step toward progress compared to the first weeks when I would cry -- practically sob -- during walks around what was once our new-found community. I would notice points of interest we had spotted together and nearly lose it. It was utter agony knowing that he was gone and I was still here and it would never, ever be the "dream."
So I can imagine how you're feeling. Confused2, you've had a huge wallop. Your heart has been broken. But you probably know as well as any of us that the answers to your moving on, healing and subsequent growth are INSIDE OF YOU; not in the revelations of his e-mail account. I hope you can set a date to stop. It's probably become a bit of a habit and maybe you can treat it as such.
In the mean time, welcome and keep posting.
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I even have photos of him dressed as a woman, but with XXXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX his dress!)
This graphic description could trigger some people so perhaps you could put a spoiler at the top of your post saying "Sexual Content."
I'm sure you're curious and fascinated by his perversions - who wouldn't be? - but that's immaterial. You can read case studies about other people. This is voyeuristic. Even if you couldn't care less about this N and want to destroy him, it's *your* ethics that are at issue. Even if you wouldn't do this same intrusion to a client or a friend, it affects your personal ethical standards. You have a double standard where you can do things that other therapists can't do, that clients shouldn't do, etc. Even if you were hurt, devastated, etc., that doesn't give you special privileges to invade someone's privacy. Even if he deserves it. Wouldn't you try to help a client find some alternative way to manage this situation?
bunny
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Thank you Bludie for sharing your story and also for being honest that it wasn't necessarily virtue or self restraint that caused you to stop reading your ex's email. Thank you also for your gentleness and caring and acknowledgement of my broken heart. Your advice makes the most sense of all. My healing is inside me and not in the content of his email and that is the best reason to stop reading it (though I maintain that it DID help me a great deal in the earlier stages of this break up. It also helped me when he very recently sent me a completely bogus letter expressing what sounded like affection and caring, interspersed with backhanded put downs. Had I not been reading what he was REALLY saying about me, I would have been sucked right in and destabilized. But the real motive behind his letter, which he sent through some mutual friends of ours, rather than directly to me, was to save face with those friends. His words were totally insincere and the only way I knew this for a fact is that I'd read what he'd written about me and the break up.) I honestly think that having access to his email has been a form of divine intervention.
Bunny, I think we simply disagree about ethics in this case. In my last post, I explained that he is exempt from ethics in my estimation and my ethics around others are uncompromised. Now, if he would only do two things, I would actually forgive him and stop reading his email out of ethical considerations: I want him to apologize for treating me the way he did AND I want him to be honest about why he left. A Narcissist will never apologize, so that's not gonna happen, and I don't think he is capable of honesty, even with himself, so that's not gonna happen either. But, if by some miracle it did, I would forgive him and NEVER look at his email again. That's when he would regain his human status in my eyes.
In the meantime, I am moving forward in my life. I am not sitting around at home crying in my soymilk. After he left me, I completely remodeled my kitchen, took a dream trip to Hawaii, and have gone out with at least 12 new men (sadly, I am not emotionally ready to get involved it seems...) I know the instant I meet someone who truly interests me, I will not give my ex-N another thought.
Thank you both for your comments.
Confused2
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Bunny, I think we simply disagree about ethics in this case. In my last post, I explained that he is exempt from ethics in my estimation and my ethics around others are uncompromised.
I read your explanation but it didn't make sense. I see that you're very very angry with him but reasonably it means you should keep a great distance from him and get him out of your life. I realize that some of your therapist friends have agreed with you that it's okay to read his email, but if you asked therapists who aren't your friends, in a supervisory capacity, I wonder what they would say.
Now, if he would only do two things, I would actually forgive him and stop reading his email out of ethical considerations: I want him to apologize for treating me the way he did AND I want him to be honest about why he left. A Narcissist will never apologize, so that's not gonna happen, and I don't think he is capable of honesty, even with himself, so that's not gonna happen either. But, if by some miracle it did, I would forgive him and NEVER look at his email again. That's when he would regain his human status in my eyes.
Again, I don't understand why it's up to him. He is a very sick individual. Why would you need an apology and honesty from a person whose psyche has severe distortions, who can't function normally, and who is seriously emotionally disturbed? You dodged a bullet! Isn't it possible that he broke off the engagement to protect you? Maybe he cares about you in his own twisted way. The only way he could deal with reality was to mess up the whole thing.
bunny
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I know I'm chipping in a bit late here, but thought I'd let you know Confused 2 that I agree that finding out these details 'behind his back' as it were is invaluable in dealing with a breakup with an N.
In my case, what he told me, and what I actually knew to be the case (learnt by what he told other people, credit card statements etc.) helped me in preventing him from gaining any ground from me. I kept a close eye on him and was able to reject any contact from him.
He soon gave up, allowing me to also give up my surveillance and move on.
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This graphic description could trigger some people so perhaps you could put a spoiler at the top of your post saying "Sexual Content."
It’s too late now. And now we know that confused2 is happy to be this explicit, we are forewarned about further posts. Susceptible people are going to be triggered wherever they are. It might be okay for them to be triggered here and then they can talk about it if they wish.
Confused2, you could spend some considerable time waiting for the ‘sorry’ that never comes but I don’t think this is the point. Your pride/self-worth has been hurt and you want to regain power for yourself, either by his downfall or by an apology - revenge in other words? It sounds like this will fade with time though.
Reading his email seems to be one way of repeatedly re-confirming the facts to yourself so that you can in time detach and reach the stage where you are no longer interested enough to read his email. You just won’t care what he does and you will have moved on.
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this unbelievable opportunity to learn all these things about the man you were madly in love with who dumped you so brutally
To learn! Yes, big learning opportunity. Learning is good.
I even talked to his ex wife
very healthy I think, gathering more opinions, facts.
I just wish I could find a relationship that feels as wonderful as that one did, AND be real. Is that too much to ask?
Depends what you mean by ‘real’! If you want to feel high sexual attraction, being worshipped etc then there’s going to be a downside when the initial highs wear off. Big highs can’t be sustained, there have to be lows. Depends if you want highs and pain and hurt – or sharing, intimacy, becoming a partnership rather than two people playing out their childhood stuff with each other. That sounds very blunt. But I think I mean it…
You really think I should be worried about violating him???
Have you violated him as such? Sorry if I missed something. It sounds to me like you’re only reading his email and that doesn’t exactly hurt him does it?
About the ethical part, I can see that when we do something secretively (read his email) it might be hurting us. But we make that choice. Kind of “this feels wrong but I’m going to do it anyway and take full responsibility for my choice. I might learn things that will hurt me terribly. I might feel voyeuristic. But I want to know the facts as far as I can and this is how to do it. So I choose.” If I have this access and choose not to read his stuff, what does that do to my ethics? I feel very honest, righteous, self-controlled, virtuous and am none the wiser about what’s really going on. That would make me feel ill (with a very high curiosity level, it would probably give me headaches just trying not to think about it).
Speaking of curious, can I ask what type of job you have? Just being nosy. I think therapists are people too, fallible human beings. If they aren’t then I don’t want to meet them, they’ll be the holier than thou variety who think they know what’s best for everyone. Dangerous!
Only one proviso: I think it’s okay to read his email so long as you don’t act against him for your own ends on anything you read. That’s crossing the line to me, that would hurt me and my conscience.
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Confused2,
Keep posting as I believe you'll get some very honest and practical feedback from this site. Although from a therapist's standpoint you probably know the ins-and-outs of what has cognitively happened to your ex-N, this knowledge IMO will not take care of the pain inside of you. It's always a long journey - transferring intellectual knowledge to one's heart -- at least that's been my layperson's experience.
Deciding to/not to read his e-mails based on something he does/doesn't do is still allowing him to have control over your life. I guess, like the rest of us, when you're good and ready to stop this will be a pinnacle on your journey toward healing.
It sounds like you're definitely getting on with life:
In the meantime, I am moving forward in my life. I am not sitting around at home crying in my soymilk. After he left me, I completely remodeled my kitchen, took a dream trip to Hawaii, and have gone out with at least 12 new men (sadly, I am not emotionally ready to get involved it seems...) I know the instant I meet someone who truly interests me, I will not give my ex-N another thought.
But I wonder if this isn't a matter of changing your outsides to fix your insides. Know what I mean? My reaction to past breakups (even my divorce) was to spring into action and head for the change bucket -- change my hairstyle; take a trip; lose weight; buy something new; date someone new; take up a new sport or hobby. Previous reactions to past breakups included frenetic activity of some sort to escape the pain.
For some reason (I'm pretty certain it had to do with a Mindful Meditation class I took during the breakup http://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/history.cfm)I didn't engage in the same coping mechanisms of my past. Instead, I got 'present' with the pain. By just observing where I was at, and not trying to fix/change it, the pain itself -- I believe -- is being transformed to awareness. This is probably awareness I've needed for two decades (to avoid some of the pitfalls in my relationships) but it took what it took. I had to put my head through enough brick walls before deciding it hurt enough to stop.
This has just been my journey. I think everyone's is a little different. Most of us, however, have probably at one time or another recoiled from emotional pain at blinding speed in a knee-jerk fashion wanting a rational and reasonable explanation for our pain but often finding none until we move within ourselves. Therein, I believe, the answers can be found. In the meantime, revelational e-mails, intellectualizing, remodeled kitchens or exotic vacations can often just be substitures or diversions.
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It’s too late now.
It wasn't too late to tell someone that spoilers are often used out of consideration. She may not know about this.
bunny
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Spoilers I havent seen this mentioned anywhere before. Is it some kind of Message Board rule?
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Spoilers aren't a rule. It's an "etiquette" that has been used on newsgroups for many years. When someone writes something that is graphic, disturbing, sexual, etc., they often put a warning at the top of the post.
bunny
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Hi everyone,
Thank you so much for all the feedback. It is really helping me to process. Here are my replies to various people:
Again, I don't understand why it's up to him. He is a very sick individual.
Why would you need an apology and honesty from a person whose psyche has
severe distortions, who can't function normally, and who is seriously
emotionally disturbed? You dodged a bullet! Isn't it possible that he broke
off the engagement to protect you? Maybe he cares about you in his own
twisted way. The only way he could deal with reality was to mess up the
whole thing.
Yes, I dodged a bullet. It is an interesting take on it, that he broke it off with me because he cares about me in his own twisted way. I seriously doubt it though. He is a textbook Narcissist. He is amoral. He thinks only about himself.
I know I'm chipping in a bit late here, but thought I'd let you know
Confused 2 that I agree that finding out these details 'behind his back' as
it were is invaluable in dealing with a breakup with an N.
Thank you for affirming that knowledge is good. It HAS been good for me. As I said earlier, if I didn't have the knowledge I have through seeing what he has said about me, his last letter to me would have completely stirred things up for me again. Instead, I was able to see right through it to his real intentions, which were to save face. Again, a classic Narcissistic quality.
you could spend some considerable time waiting for the Œsorry¹
that never comes but I don¹t think this is the point. Your pride/self-worth
has been hurt and you want to regain power for yourself, either by his
downfall or by an apology - revenge in other words? It sounds like this will
fade with time though.
I am not really waiting for an apology. That would be a miracle. But, the more I see his life play out, the more I confirm my diagnosis of his NPD. I can't wait to see how he devalues his current source of N-supply. I am sure it will happen. She is a platonic friend of his who is cheering him on to launch his transgendered porn star career. He is feeding off of her affirmation. But I am sure that will end when he realizes his current fantasy is not possible. (He looks gawd-awful in his dresses and make-up and he's 50 years old for crying out loud....)
As for revenge, I have already decided NOT to use what I've learned in his emails to get revenge. I just want to see his undoing. There is a Chinese proverb that goes something like this: "If you sit by the side of the river long enough, eventually you will see the body of your enemy float by." I am going to sit at side of this river for a while longer.
Reading his email seems to be one way of repeatedly re-confirming the facts to yourself so that you can in time detach and reach the stage where you are no longer interested enough to read his email. You just won¹t care what he does and you will have moved on.
YES! That's exactly what I am doing by reading his email. Thank you!!! I am repeated reconfirming the facts because my emotional involvement in this relationship was complete. I gave him everyting I had emotionally. It appeared he was doing the same with me. And then whoosh! He was gone in a cloud of dust and I was a hit and run victim.
If you want to feel high sexual attraction,
being worshipped etc then there¹s going to be a downside when the initial
highs wear off. Big highs can¹t be sustained, there have to be lows. Depends if you want highs and pain and hurt or sharing, intimacy, becoming a partnership rather than two people playing out their childhood stuff with each other. That sounds very blunt. But I think I mean it
I like exciting, passionate relationships and it's a bit disappointing to think that the passionate ones are all doomed. One good thing that has come from this is that I no longer have any ground rules to go by. I thought this was it. I thought this was exactly how romance is supposed to happen. And look how it turned out. So, now, I am a blank slate with no guidelines and that is probably a good thing in a Zen sort of way.
You really think I should be worried about violating him???Have you violated him as such? Sorry if I missed something. It sounds to me like you¹re only reading his email and that doesn¹t exactly hurt him does it?
Thank you. I have not done ANYTHING other than to read his email. And I have an arsenal to use against him if I chose to. But I have chosen NOT to. It's all for my healing and the only revenge I am getting is that I know how APPALLED he would be if he knew that I, of all people, had all of this damning information about him. It's a silent "f__k you" to him.
About the ethical part, I can see that when we do something secretively
(read his email) it might be hurting us. But we make that choice. Kind of
³this feels wrong but I¹m going to do it anyway and take full responsibility
for my choice. I might learn things that will hurt me terribly. I might feel
voyeuristic. But I want to know the facts as far as I can and this is how to
do it. So I choose.² If I have this access and choose not to read his stuff,
what does that do to my ethics? I feel very honest, righteous,
self-controlled, virtuous and am none the wiser about what¹s really going
on. That would make me feel ill (with a very high curiosity level, it would
probably give me headaches just trying not to think about it).
Thank you! A good take on it. I think that what I am doing is completely healthy, at least in the short term.
Speaking of curious, can I ask what type of job you have?
I am not a psychotherapist. I said I was a mental health professional because I have a degree that would allow me to practice psychotherapy. But I am actually in the field of higher education.
I think it¹s okay to read his email so long as you don¹t
act against him for your own ends on anything you read. That¹s crossing the line to me, that would hurt me and my conscience.
Yes, I've already stated several times that I am simply reading it for my own healing and affirmation and not to destroy his life. He is doing a good job destroying it himself.
For some reason (I'm pretty certain it had to do with a Mindful Meditation class I took during the breakup http://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/history.cfm)I didn't engage in the same coping mechanisms of my past. Instead, I got 'present' with the pain
In the wake of the break-up, I read practically every book that Cheri Huber wrote. She is a Zen teacher and her books are deceptively simple and full of truth. I am pretty sure I am taking a two-pronged approach: 1)insight meditation plus reading AND 2) getting back out in the world and doing things that bring me joy.
Thank you for all the wonderful feedback. Each time I talk about it, I take another step toward healing.
Confused2 (getting less confused all the time...)
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Now, if he would only do two things, I would actually forgive him and stop reading his email out of ethical considerations: I want him to apologize for treating me the way he did AND I want him to be honest about why he left. A Narcissist will never apologize, so that's not gonna happen, and I don't think he is capable of honesty, even with himself, so that's not gonna happen either. But, if by some miracle it did, I would forgive him and NEVER look at his email again. That's when he would regain his human status in my eyes.
You are being contradictory. You initially say that you are only reading his mail for your own healing. In the quote above you imply that you are reading it out of *revenge* for which stopping is on the conditional basis that he would apologise or be honest about why he left. Please think about that.
Though I'd never *suggest* someone doing it, since you readily had access and have done it, I do actually agree that reading the mail for a very short period of time,like over one-two weeks, could help you to find out truths from these pathological liar deceiver types [never with "normal" breakups] and to help drill the reality in and stop the pinning and magical thinking that so many struggle with at the end of N relatonships. A lot of the struggle seems to be around unknowns and if the ugly truth is right there in black & white & undeniable then it can be a help in moving on I think.
**But condsider that you do have your answers now.** It sounds like you know the truth now, so isn't it time to stop reading & move on? Careful not to get caught up and stuck in another kind of energy with him via reading his mails. As you are doing this you are strongly keeping yourself connected with him emotionally when you say you want to let go.
Contrary to what you wrote-it does not seem like you have moved on when you are still reading his mail after having the answers to your questions and especially if you are "waiting" and hoping on the miracle of another interaction with him where he apologises and/or tells all about why he left. From what you said ***you already know why*** now so you don't need to hear it from him. Remember that reading his mail was supposed to be about **you**.
Consider that the time has come to leave the mail and leave the idea of getting any kind of closure from him-behind you. Give the closure to yourself now by stepping out of his world and his daily goings on. Right now I would be concerned for you that you are stifling "moving on growth" you could have if you spent your emotional time & energy focusing on things in your life that have nothing to do with him. You even mention in your intial mail that you are still attached to him, so although reading his mail has helped you to see the truth, it has not really helped you to move on. It might really only be helping you to **stay stuck** at this point.
It might seem easier to stay in this place of connection with him than face the pain the next phase of complete detachment and acceptance that you wont have closure from him.The pain of knowing that ZERO contact is best. But in my humble opinion it would be a large mistake on your part to continue this behavior, and would be best for you to start a **zero** contact and association policy immediately.
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A little clarification. In the above message I wrote:
In the quote above you imply that you are reading it out of *revenge* for which stopping is on the conditional basis that he would apologise or be honest about why he left. Please think about that.
I don't mean the kind of revenge that you have already made very clear that you are not into. The revenge of outing him.
If you read your words that I quoted in the above mail it is easy to see what I mean. I'm talking about your revenge of invading his privacy and treating him as "non human" [your implication not mine]. In other words, you are saying that his behavior was/is worthy of your revenge in doing what you are to him, and that you would stop if he ever made amends to you.
Just to clarify because you have already made it very very clear that you will not use the info. you have against him. I wanted to emphasise that this was not the revenge I was talking about. But again, it should be clear if you read the text in quote in that mail.
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If I had fully moved on, I would not have posted to this board to begin with. So, no, I have not entirely moved on. But I am getting better. I really do wish I no longer cared to know what he is up to. And it would be magnanimous of me to forgive and wish him well in spite of what he put me through. I guess I am not that magnanimous or wise or evolved. Yes, the form of revenge I am taking feels good. Yes, I know that it is keeping me stuck on some level. No, I do not hope for any contact with him. No, I do not hope for an apology or closure. Yes, I want to see him suffer. No, I do not plan to be the cause of his suffering.
With each passing day and each new experience I create for myself, he fades a little bit. Zen would say that I'll stop reading his email when I stop reading it. I have a little stuffed dog he gave me and it's been in my bedroom all this time, but I am about to put it out of sight. This is a slow process for me, one I wish would be less slow. But I am doing the best that I can. Sorry if I'm too slow for you.
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If I had fully moved on, I would not have posted to this board to begin with. So, no, I have not entirely moved on. But I am getting better. I really do wish I no longer cared to know what he is up to. And it would be magnanimous of me to forgive and wish him well in spite of what he put me through. I guess I am not that magnanimous or wise or evolved. Yes, the form of revenge I am taking feels good. Yes, I know that it is keeping me stuck on some level. No, I do not hope for any contact with him. No, I do not hope for an apology or closure. Yes, I want to see him suffer. No, I do not plan to be the cause of his suffering.
I'm getting in touch with a lot through this thread. It may have gotten a bit contentious but I also see some good from writing, reading and re-reading thoughts/ideas/convictions and coping strategies.
The quote above pretty well describes where I am at in my recovery (nearly 4 months since the breakup). For nearly the first 2 months I was completely sad, devastated, bleak and depressed; feeling war-torn and tragic about life. Month 3 I got pretty darn angry about things. Thoughts continued through my mind such as "How dare he.... What a loser to have.... He's a nutbag... I dodged a bullet and good riddance...." and so forth. The beginning of month 4 has been a mix -- anger, sadness, a desire for some ill fate to befall him, disbelief, curiosity -- the gamut.
However, I am also experiencing an itch; somewhat like the scab when it's ready to come clean. I long for facets of my old life -- a regular workout schedule, book clubs or get-togethers with girlfriends, yoga class, listening to jazz...whatever. I've been hiding out these past 4 months licking my wounds. But I am feeling the itch to stop playing it so safe and get out there and live a little again. This thread has helped me realize I need to seek a balance. It can't be too much one way or another.
Confused2, it sounds like you've done a lot of sifting, sorting, mulling ALONG WITH taking action. As stated in my earlier post, it's an individual journey in most respects. I hope we continue to support and bolster each other amid the gentle (sometimes not so gentle?) prods we get from one another to break free, move on, face the demons and grow from it all.
Best,
bludie
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However, I am also experiencing an itch; somewhat like the scab when it's ready to come clean. I long for facets of my old life -- a regular workout schedule, book clubs or get-togethers with girlfriends, yoga class, listening to jazz...whatever. I've been hiding out these past 4 months licking my wounds. But I am feeling the itch to stop playing it so safe and get out there and live a little again. This thread has helped me realize I need to seek a balance. It can't be too much one way or another.
Bludie,
You sure do have a way with words. Have you considered being an author of self help books? I wish you lived nearby so that I could go have some tea with you. I live in California. Where are you? I went back and looked up all your posts and our experiences have been so similar. It IS affirming to know that my experience wasn't an isolated incident and that these N behaviors are well described in the literature and have been experienced by others.
I like what you said about having an itch to get out and enjoy life again. Whenever I have an experience that feeds me, I feel alive again and long for more. I know that I have the power to create my life. But, as far as seeking a new relationship goes, wow, am I ever feeling weary! On one hand, I so miss the feeling of being loved and loving someone. On the other, I feel tired just thinking about it. Sad to think he wasted not only the time I was actually with him, but also all this time it is taking to recover from the effects of his disordered personality. I guess no experience is really a waste of time as it is an opportunity to learn.
I am feeling quite restless in my career and have plans to see a career counselor. Funny, because when we were engaged, I felt perfectly happy in my job. But now, I am feeling bored and restless. In other words with marriage in the offing, that was going to be my source of adventure at least for a while, but without that, I need to create it somewhere else and my career is a natural place to examine.
An aside: in these posts, you can see who has counseling skills and who does not. Those without counseling skills jump right to advice-giving and problem solving. Those with counseling skills first acknowledge and affirm the feelings. You are in the second camp.
Confused2
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It's a silent "f__k you" to him.
It's that silent knowledge that is so empowering.
That you know the truth; doesn't matter whether anybody else does.
Another thing that I was adamant about after my N breakup was that I heal at MY pace, nobody elses.
Best again,
Guest (who chipped in).
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Hi Guest (who chipped in),
I have truly appreciated your comments and affirmations. Thank you!
Confused2
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An aside: in these posts, you can see who has counseling skills and who does not. Those without counseling skills jump right to advice-giving and problem solving. Those with counseling skills first acknowledge and affirm the feelings. You are in the second camp.
Was there some reason to put down some people in order to praise others...
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I agree with the above statement.
Also, I wrote:
**But condsider that you do have your answers now.** It sounds like you know the truth now, so isn't it time to stop reading & move on? Careful not to get caught up and stuck in another kind of energy with him via reading his mails. As you are doing this you are strongly keeping yourself connected with him emotionally when you say you want to let go. ETC
I wrote the reply quoted above for reference, and Confused2 your reply was full of hostility.why would you say that you are sorry you are not healing fast enough for me? I'm baffled by wherever that came from. Heal at whatever bleeping speed you want in any way you want.
In a **supportive** way, I was only thinking that what could be best & most healing for **you** could be to begin zero contact immediately.
You asked for "any advice?" in your initial mail & now you seem unhappy because it isn't being delivered the way you want, which you say is being affirmed first.This is a *self* help type board & not a board of mental health professionals doing therapy.your comment was rude & uncalled for.
I wish you luck but am done replying to your dilemma {you won't exaclty be broken up over it I know ;) Your unappreciative & hostile tone leaves much to be desired. And after all i have read i also believe that you made the right career choice in going with higher education & not therapy.
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Was there some reason to put down some people in order to praise others...
Hi,
I didn't mean it as a put-down to say that some people have counseling skills while others do not. For example: I have counseling skills but I do not have art skills. I have language skills but I do not have engineering or mechanical skills. I have skiing skills but I do not have basketball skills. We all have different skills. I will say however, that one really good relationship skill to have is the ability to affirm feelings rather than immediately give advice and solve problems. There is a time and place for problem solving, and it is always after feelings have been acknowledged.
Confused 2
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I live in California. Where are you?
I am in the dreary Midwest where gray, cold, snow and rain have been quite consistent. Sunny California sounds pleasant although the mudslides don't.
An aside: in these posts, you can see who has counseling skills and who does not. Those without counseling skills jump right to advice-giving and problem solving. Those with counseling skills first acknowledge and affirm the feelings. You are in the second camp.
Although I very much appreciate the compliment, confused2, I wonder if these comments aren't biting the hand that feeds you, so to speak. As your thread shows there have been MANY thoughtful and relevant posts to offer help/advice/clarity on your situation. I'd like to direct us all back to mywifeandI's first post where he said:
<This> is a meeting place of imperfect, hurting people who are hurting and healing and who desperately need each other. I hope we can put this accusation behind us and get on with our mission. Our mission is to help each other to heal from the targeting of N’s and to regain our dignity and voice. All that I can say to each and everyone of you is, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. You are beautiful, You can cry, you can love, you can feel, you can change, you are made in the image of the one who is above all, through all, and in you all. Hugs to you, be healed.
Each and every time we post, I'd like to think our problem is reduced and our insight is increased by the feedback we receive. Most, if not all of it, is valuable.
Because as flower said:
When voices get harsh here, we are speaking from our problems, our own pain or cluelessness. Hopefully, any harshness here is a just a stage in the growth from voicelessness to get past. For none of us wants to be like our abusers. Sometimes we only see our mistakes in retrospect. We are all learning , certainly I am still learning. Our perspectives are changing as we grow
As to what confused2 wrote:
I am feeling quite restless in my career and have plans to see a career counselor. Funny, because when we were engaged, I felt perfectly happy in my job. But now, I am feeling bored and restless. In other words with marriage in the offing, that was going to be my source of adventure at least for a while, but without that, I need to create it somewhere else and my career is a natural place to examine.
I am at the same place and considering a course of graduate study. It would be a big commitment and I'm evaluating this carefully so I'm content with my decision a year from now. It would not only mean staying here for the next two years (and I have a bad taste since our first months were polluted by the N-experience, breakup and aftermath) but giving up some summer evenings in the garden to be in a classroom. :( However, it's the perfect time in my career and life to consider this option. Previously my schedule was TOO full so I am at a place where the vessel is empty, so to speak, and I can carefully consider what to add to my life.
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Hello all. I’m going to a new thread because I don’t want to clutter this one. I’m talking about this thread in the new one.
Confused2, I have some thoughts about passion and romance if you want to talk about it and there are lots of books about women and relationships (Women who love too much etc). Is passion doomed? What is passion? Is it just sexual attraction? Isn’t that a bit boring? Etc etc.
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**I didn't mean it as a put-down** to say that some people have counseling skills while others do not. For example: I have counseling skills but I do not have art skills. I have language skills but I do not have engineering or mechanical skills
Sorry- but that's such a sorry and obvious total cop-out & backpeddling. It is obvious what you meant by anyone with a half a brain cell & it would have been nice if you'd have just said you felt uncomfortable with some things being presented to you in some messages [which is what happened] & apologise that you said what you did the way you did, as a result--
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So then what you are saying is that this statement:
I didn't mean it as a put-down
that Confused2 made is a cop out, etc, in your opinion.
Ofcourse, you are entitled to your opinion and you have a right to behave by example, as you so choose.
I get the example you are setting and to me it seems to say:
"It's ok to discredit what others say and accuse them of stuff and decide upon and express what we decide that they are feeling but haven't expressed. It's up to us to try to instill some kind of guilt in others and to suggest and guide them as to when and how to appologize for what.
I get it but I'm not agreeing.
Just some other guest
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Hi,
This is my first experience with posting to online discussion groups. I am finding it hard to keep track of everyone and adequately reply to everyone, especially when so many people use the name GUEST.
I am not here to get confrontational or enmeshed in back and forth bickering. I apologize if I've offended anyone. Not my intention. Why would I have anything against an anonymous group of people? I am just not emotionally invested enough here to either hurl insults or get offended. All I did was report that being told what to do and when to do it did not feel that great to me. It's the first thing I learned in my Introduction to Counseling class 18 years ago: counseling is not advice-giving. That was a big surprise as I always thought that is EXACTLY what counseling is.
Portia, I like your idea for a discussion on the nature of passion and romantic love. And, NO, I don't think sexual attraction is boring in the least! If you start a thread, I will participate. I think I will change my name from Confused2 to something else. I don't like the negative label.
Bludie, I wish you well in pursuing your goals of furthering your education. I really do think you'd be good in human services and/or counseling. I wish I could figure out a new direction. My "problem" is that I have a really good job in terms of pay, benefits, and location, as well as gobs of time off. But I am tired of it! It's a lot to give up to start something new and I've worked so hard to achieve it. I am 47 and eligible for retirement in 8 years. So maybe I should just stick it out. I don't hate my job, but I am no longer fully engaged in it either. I guess that's a topic for another discussion board.
I think I'll start another thread about some thoughts swirling around in my head about my ex-N. They are just not clear enough right now to articulate.
Confused2
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"and decide upon and express what we decide that they are feeling but haven't expressed."
Are you on medication?
that Confused2 made is a cop out, etc, in your opinion. I get it but I'm not agreeing.
Well--- in that case I got me some swamp land here that I'd be just itching for you to have a look at. :wink:
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it would have been nice if you'd have just said you felt uncomfortable with some things being presented to you in some messages [which is what happened]
To clarify a little:
Seems there is an assumption Confused2 felt uncomfortable. The poster decided upon what Confused2 felt. The poster expressed what was now decided upon by the poster (but not expressed by Confused2).
No meds for me. Got plenty of good land too but thanks anyway.
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No meds for me. Got plenty of good land too but thanks anyway.
Heck yeah--I could carry on with endless clever quips over those ones but I'm not here to cause that kind of trouble.
If you can't see where a person gets defensive when hearing something they do not want to hear-- what more can i say.
3rd eye blind ain't no crime-- Annoying as h^ll yes-- but that's about all i can claim--
But it's not a put down that everyone giving advice here does not have the kind of perception they need to sense & see truths more deeply, like I do. What I mean is- For example: I have perceptive skills but I do not have art skills. I have perceptive skills but I do not have engineering or mechanical skills. We all have different skills. I will say however, that one really good relationship skill to have is the ability to be able to try to perceive what is going on below surface level defenses rather than blindly taking up sides with someone & reinforcing their denial. There is a time & place for problem solving but it is only after you have perceived the truth of the matter behind defenses.
If you have a problem with what is in bold print then "logically" you "should" [note the quotes & word use] have one with the initial mail also, which, kind as I am-I took the liberty of quoting at the end of this one for your convenience. If you don't have a problem with what I said above then I take it you will accept it & begin to work harder at your perceptive abilities before you dare to venture into future advice giving on this board again--hm?
Note: Yes--these things could hold as valid in a therapists office, but I personally do not at all feel that way I wrote above about suggesting there be "qualifications" or "stipulations" needed in order to give a solicited opinion or advice on an internet discussion board that is of any consideration or value, as the original poster implies. This is not a therapists office or forum of therapists!
There are forums where only therapists interact with each other however, & if original poster would like the abc's of counselling theory to be followed to the "t" when people reply to her, she has these alternatives. It is completely arrogant & nonsensical to enter an layperson advice forum & get all hot under the collar & put down others because "the way support is being offered is not pursuant professional therapy guidelines."
Besides-- the fact is that what the individual said about being affirmed first didn't even make sense to her situation.The poster had been generally affirmed plenty. Do they need to be affirmed & coddled by *each* indiv. separately before they dare offer other supportive views?
They didn't personally like the content of what they read [which was not offensive whatsoever]--plain & simple.
Initial Quote:
I didn't mean it as a put-down to say that some people have counseling skills while others do not. For example: I have counseling skills but I do not have art skills. I have language skills but I do not have engineering or mechanical skills. I have skiing skills but I do not have basketball skills. We all have different skills. I will say however, that one really good relationship skill to have is the ability to affirm feelings rather than immediately give advice and solve problems. There is a time and place for problem solving, and it is always after feelings have been acknowledged.
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If you can't see where a person gets defensive when hearing something they do not want to hear-- what more can i say.
Not sure how you know what I can or cannot see?
Are you feeling a bit defensive?
But it's not a put down that everyone giving advice here does not have the kind of perception they need to sense & see truths more deeply, like I do.
Are you seriously pointing out you how special you are?
Well, I'm not going to argue with you. You probably are very special, clever, perceptive, kind, logical with good relationship skills, as you've said. I believe you.
I also believe Confused2 when she states that she didn't mean it as a put down.
That's ok, isn't it?
I disagree with your opinion.
That's ok too, isn't it?
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My "problem" is that I have a really good job in terms of pay, benefits, and location, as well as gobs of time off. But I am tired of it! It's a lot to give up to start something new and I've worked so hard to achieve it. I am 47 and eligible for retirement in 8 years. So maybe I should just stick it out. I don't hate my job, but I am no longer fully engaged in it either. I guess that's a topic for another discussion board.
Holding on for retirement at 55 years sounds good to me! Maybe a new hobby? I'd love to get certified to scuba dive some day or snorkeling has always interested me, too. What about sailing? So many cool things if you're coastal.
Confused2, I'll be interested to know your new screen name. In the mean time hang in there and let us know if you've managed to taper off on those toxic e-mails :wink:
Oh- and one more thing. I was thinking about it all. It's bad enough to know that my ex-N is already in a committed relationship with another woman. It would be worse to discover the situation you experienced with your ex-N. And at this stage in life (I'm 45) when you decide to throw in and marry someone again, it feels even more risky and vulnerable. To not have it work out is exponentially more painful at this age, for some reason. Not sure why that is. Maybe we're more aware? Maybe it's a crucial life-lesson? Maybe we know the pickins are slim out there? Who knows?!
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Guest (the one who is having SO many problems with Confused2)
I wonder why you are so emotionally involved in this issue? Why is it pushing all your buttons?
There are forums where only therapists interact with each other however, & if original poster would like the abc's of counselling theory to be followed to the "t" when people reply to her, she has these alternatives. It is completely arrogant & nonsensical to enter an layperson advice forum & get all hot under the collar & put down others because "the way support is being offered is not pursuant professional therapy guidelines."
The skill of affirming feelings is not an advanced counseling technique. It is an elementary communication skill. It is taught in many self help books and is also taught by therapists to clients in marriage and family therapy. Instead of getting so uptight and defensive, why not just learn this skill? You'll be amazed at how positively people will begin to respond to you! Much more positively than when you offer them immediate advice.
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Are you seriously pointing out you how special you are?
Nooooo---if that is what you got out of it you've missed the point entirely.
I disagree with your opinion. That's ok too, isn't it?
Of course it is. You commented on what I'd written, I commented back-- & so it went. At the end of the road we're splitting paths [we don't agree, no] & that's just fine indeed.
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I wonder why you are so emotionally involved in this issue? Why is it pushing all your buttons?
Because it ticked me off that someone would be so arrogant, and I did not want anyone to feel bad in the sense that they were being put down & to be self conscious about replying in the future. That about covers it.
Yes--you've made it clear you believe that the comment was not said in a "passive-aggressive" hostility style.
I couldn't disagree more--though any "vying for righteousness" in viewpoint between us would just be in the name of futility & a waste of both of our time & of board space.
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So are you feeling a bit defensive? Still wondering because you didn't answer that one.
Or does it feel better to belittle (by insinuating how dumb I must be-if that's alllllll I got out of it), rather than explain what the point was?
Does this remind you of the past in any way?
It does me. It's certainly the way my parents might have responded if I disagreed with them or didn't get their point exactly.
How did you feel when I said I believe you?
Have you thought about why this issue has pushed your buttons, as the other Guest wondered?
I'm just wondering too. Do we really have to split paths because we disagree?
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Hi Guest, I must have posted just after you.
So your statements were made in defense of others, who you imagined might feel "self conscious about replying in future"?
So you were actually trying to be nice and trying to defend those people?
That is a nice thing to do, Guest.
It's just that the way you did it discredited Confused2's words.
Maybe, it would have been better to say something like:
"Some people might feel self-conscious about replying in future, because of what you've said Confused2."
Rather than accusing her of copping out and discrediting her words, deciding upon her feelings and imagining her intention.
I'm not saying this to harm you, Guest.
I've done the same thing myself, at times.
I agree with the Guest who said that acknowledging feelings is not a special talent or skill. We can all learn.
We can all learn to consider eachother's feelings before lashing out, too, if we choose to.
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Holding on for retirement at 55 years sounds good to me! Maybe a new hobby? I'd love to get certified to scuba dive some day or snorkeling has always interested me, too. What about sailing? So many cool things if you're coastal.
Actually, I live in the mountains which I love. As I mentioned in a previous post, getting married to the man of my dreams was going to be my new adventure. And we have a mutual cause that we were going to work on together. (It is actually my life MISSION and he led me to believe it was also his- but I've read that Narcissists are good are becoming whoever you want them to be- so maybe it was never really his mission at all.)
And at this stage in life (I'm 45) when you decide to throw in and marry someone again, it feels even more risky and vulnerable. To not have it work out is exponentially more painful at this age, for some reason. Not sure why that is. Maybe we're more aware? Maybe it's a crucial life-lesson? Maybe we know the pickins are slim out there? Who knows?
The reason why this has been especially painful for me is that he led me to believe that I was the woman he'd waited many lifetimes for and he was the man I'd waited many lifetimes for. I have been engaged a couple of times but never married. This is kind of an area of vulnerability for me because I've always wanted to get married (but not enought to settle for something that wasn't romantic and passionate and wonderful). I confessed some of these things to him. He was an eloquent, romantic writer and wrote me the most amazing love letters that I think are suitable for publication, they were that good. So, to think I finally had EVERYTHING I'd ever wanted and my dream was finally coming true, only to be devalued and dumped over the course of about 4 days time with lame explanations has been devastating.
I find I have to keep my mind straight about things or I start to have the following thoughts: Maybe he wasn't an N and I am just using this as a defense mechanism for my pain. Maybe there's actually something wrong with me and not him. (He sounds so happy-go-lucky in his emails and he has a few friends that really seem to adore him). But, when I have rational talks with myself (ane my friends, some of whom are therapists), I see clearly that, at minimum, he has strong N traits, and this gender confusion/latent homosexuality, or whatever. Plus, it's not a matter of whether there was something wrong with him or with me; we are both flawed human beings, the difference being that I wanted to stay in the relationship and learn and grow while he opted to run away.
I think I'm rambling here. I still don't have a new screen name picked out but I will definitely let you know what it is.
Best to you,
Confused2
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Now :? you seem to have taken quite the interest in this whole issue yourself--guest. Shoe on the other foot-- whatever could your interest be? What buttons of defense of yours is all of this pushing?
Never mind--Let's consider it rhetorical. I'm really not even the slightest bit interested in the response as I am in the question.
You've decided in good will to take up the cross for the intial poster? To be so very nice & defend this person? Well--I'll return your compliment to me. That was very nice of you, guest.
I think I have some idea as to who I'm interacting with. :twisted: It could be a choice out of several actually & I'm sure we've interacted before.
Alas-- but I'm not engaging anymore for no other reason than it is a waste of time.
Out of respect--I do draw a distinction between you and the other guest {or persona}.
(Taunts edited out--Richard Grossman)
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Deleted: Contentless taunt
Richard Grossman
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It's bad enough to know that my ex-N is already in a committed relationship with another woman. It would be worse to discover the situation you experienced with your ex-N.
Bludie,
Actually, I think I would feel worse if my ex-N was with another woman. Because he is NOT with another woman, and not even looking for a woman, rather looking for a transgendered MAN, it makes the whole thing much less personal.
Confused2
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The reason why this has been especially painful for me is that he led me to believe that I was the woman he'd waited many lifetimes for and he was the man I'd waited many lifetimes for. I have been engaged a couple of times but never married. This is kind of an area of vulnerability for me because I've always wanted to get married (but not enought to settle for something that wasn't romantic and passionate and wonderful). I confessed some of these things to him. He was an eloquent, romantic writer and wrote me the most amazing love letters that I think are suitable for publication, they were that good. So, to think I finally had EVERYTHING I'd ever wanted and my dream was finally coming true, only to be devalued and dumped over the course of about 4 days time with lame explanations has been devastating.
Confused2,
Have you ever heard of Steven Carter? He wrote a classic book called "Men Who Can't Love." This is a very powerful book. I think your fiance is described in this book (not the TG part but his intense romancing followed by lame distancing and abandonment). There is also a website where Steven Carter answers questions from people:
http://www.power-surge.com/cgi-bin/ask_experts/archive.cgi?relationships
bunny
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I'm just wondering too. Do we really have to split paths because we disagree?
It MEANS you and that person disagree dosey dove.
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Confused2,
I find I have to keep my mind straight about things or I start to have the following thoughts: Maybe he wasn't an N and I am just using this as a defense mechanism for my pain. Maybe there's actually something wrong with me and not him.
Boy, I've been there recently, too. My pendulum swings from initial shock and awe and numbness -- to anger -- then onto justifying my part in things -- then onto diagnosing and sometimes even villifying him. My intellect tells me that forgiveness is the key to my peace and serenity. But I'm not there yet. Here's a story that I found interesting. Perhaps you will, too:
A carrot, an egg and a cup of coffee...
A young woman went to her mother and told her about her life and how things were so hard for her. She did not know how she was going to make it and wanted to give up. She was tired of fighting and struggling.
It seemed as one problem was solved, a new one arose. Her mother took her to the kitchen. She filled three pots with water and placed each on a high fire. Soon the pots came to boil. In the first she placed carrots, in the second she placed eggs, and in the last she placed ground coffee beans. She let them sit and boil, without saying a word.
In about twenty minutes she turned off the burners. She fished the carrots out and placed them in a bowl. She pulled the eggs out and placed them in a bowl. Then she ladled the coffee out and placed it in a bowl.
Turning to her daughter, she asked, "Tell me, what do you see?"
"Carrots, eggs, and coffee," she replied.
Her mother brought her closer and asked her to feel the carrots. She did and noted that they were soft. The mother then asked the daughter to take an egg and break it. After pulling off the shell, she observed the hard boiled egg. Finally, the mother asked the daughter to sip the coffee. The daughter smiled as she tasted its rich aroma. The daughter then asked, "What does it mean, mother?"
Her mother explained that each of these objects had faced the same adversity ... boiling water. Each reacted differently. The carrot went in strong, hard, and unrelenting. However, after being subjected to the boiling water, it softened and became weak. The egg had been fragile. Its thin outer shell had protected its liquid interior, but after sitting through the boiling water, its inside became hardened. The ground coffee beans were unique, however. After they were in the boiling water, they had changed the water.
"Which are you?" she asked her daughter.
"When adversity knocks on your door, how do you respond? Are you a carrot, an egg or a coffee bean?"
Think of this: Which am I? Am I the carrot that seems strong, but with pain and adversity do I wilt and become soft and lose my strength?
Am I the egg that starts with a malleable heart, but changes with the heat? Did I have a fluid spirit, but after a death, a breakup, a financial hardship or some other trial, have I become hardened and stiff? Does my shell look the same, but on the inside am I bitter and tough with a stiff spirit and hardened heart?
Or am I like the coffee bean? The bean actually changes the hot water, the very circumstance that brings the pain. When the water gets hot, it releases the fragrance and flavor. If you are like the bean, when things are at their worst, you get better and change the situation around you. When the hour is the darkest and trials are their greatest, do you elevate yourself to another level?
How do you handle adversity? Are you a carrot, an egg or a coffee bean?
May you have enough happiness to make you sweet, enough trials to make you strong, enough sorrow to keep you human and enough hope to make you happy.
Lately I've felt eggy but I'm searching and striving to become the coffee. I think we all are in our own ways.
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bunny,
Just perused the site. Will look into it more in-depth. Very cool -- thank you!
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Bunny, I read Men Who Can't Love and underlined just about half the book because it so described what happened to me. My only problem with the book is that he describes the behavior of these various men but doesn't link it with Narcissism or anything else for that matter. He mentions it very very briefly. No matter. The behavior described my ex very well. I have recently thought about the book again and am about to pull it off my shelf for another reading. And thank you for the web link. I will take a look.
Bludie, great story. Thanks. Right now I feel like the carrot. My self esteem was really solid when I met him. In fact he used to say that one thing he loved about me was that I was a happy person and wasn't looking to him to make me happy. After this unfortunate episode, I've felt like I've had my spirit crushed. I put this in the past tense because I am much better than I was all summer when I cried frequently. I phase in and out of so many different feelings. Today, for example, I am totally disgusted by him and am thinking I am so well rid of this selfish, immature, gender-confused, flat broke guy (makes a huge amount of money but has poor impulse control with spending). Yesterday when I wrote my last post, I was afraid that he's fine (based on the fact that he's moved on so easily while I stay so stuck, and based on the fact that some people seem to love him a lot) and I'm the one that's not worth being with. Today and a couple of days ago, I felt bored reading his email and felt like I'm going to give it up soon without even trying. I don't think I'll ever become the egg. I am not that self protective. Maybe I'll become the coffee, but only by accident and only in retrospect. Like maybe one day I'll realize that I'm completely over this and I've somehow been transformed in a positive way.
I am getting a lot from these discussions. Thanks to all.
Confused2
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Steven Carter now links these men with narcissism.
bunny
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My self esteem was really solid when I met him. In fact he used to say that one thing he loved about me was that I was a happy person and wasn't looking to him to make me happy. After this unfortunate episode, I've felt like I've had my spirit crushed. I put this in the past tense because I am much better than I was all summer when I cried frequently. I phase in and out of so many different feelings.
The operant word is roller coaster, I think! I wouldn't go so far as to say my self esteem has ever been really solid. I think my childhood may have something to do with that (a whole other story). But when I met my ex-N, I had a life filled with friends, activities and solid career goals/achievements. My relationship with my daughter was in tact and I, at the very least, had significant self respect. I look at my life now and see only pieces or portions of my former life; a vagary.
I know what you mean, confused2, about feeling like your spirit has been crushed. Normally I have tried to be fairly Towanda-like about things: if there was a problem, it could be solved. If there was a gap or something lacking in my life, it could be examined and resolved. In the aftermath with my ex-N, and now knowing he's in a full-blown relationship within a couple of months after our breakup, my self esteem has been blown to smithereens. I'd like to think I am stronger than that but have to admit to taking quite an emotional beating on this one.
But thank goodness for the self-help venues, friends, therapy, medication, a renewed sense of spirituality and boards such as this one. It all helps. I just hope to learn enough from my lesson so that I will never repeat it again.
Best,
bludie
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Bludie,
he's in a full-blown relationship within a couple of months
on the surface maybe but unlikely to very deep or meaningful?
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knowing he's in a full-blown relationship within a couple of months after our breakup, my self esteem has been blown to smithereens. I'd like to think I am stronger than that but have to admit to taking quite an emotional beating on this one.
Bludie,
I think I would feel much as you feel if my ex-N had gone on and jumped into another relationship after me. I would have felt much more rejected, more than I do now since my ex-N has gone on to a completely different path. He is NOT looking for another woman but for transgendered men who dress as women. It's much easier to not take personally. Too bad you don't have access to inside information about your ex's relationship because you would likely see him treating her the way he treated you and you would feel much better about no longer being with him. That was the blessing of having had access to my ex's email, which I maintain was a gift from God in that I got to see him for who he is.
Bunny,
That is good to hear that Stephen Carter now links Men Who Can't Love to NPD! I can't wait to peruse his site.
The only thing that bugs me a little bit about how much energy I'm putting into healing is the fact that my ex hasn't even given me a second thought, other than to lie about me. And here I am, 7 months later, still thinking about him every single day without fail. From the outside, it looks like he's the healthy one, having such a well-developed ability to move on. But his ex-wife said that was one of his hallmark characteristics: just moving on to the next big thing with no looking back. I am but a discarded empty milk carton or used tissue (metaphors I think I read on this discussion board that I think are so fitting).
I am off work today, it is a beautiful day and I am going to go outside and fully enjoy it! I'm feeling about as good as I've felt since the break up. Maybe it's just a phase or maybe I have turned a corner.
Hope everyone has a great weekend!
Confused2
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Now you seem to have taken quite the interest in this whole issue yourself--guest. Shoe on the other foot-- whatever could your interest be? What buttons of defense of yours is all of this pushing?
I would answer your questions except next you say:
Never mind--Let's consider it rhetorical. I'm really not even the slightest bit interested in the response as I am in the question.
See....this is a main difference between us. I was truly interested in your answers and responses. I reflected on your opinion and stated mine. I was even interested in your ideas about mine, after possibly your reflecting on it, and that's why I commented on the possibility of not parting ways, just because we disagree. I was interested in hearing more of your opinion, even if I disagree with it. Thanks anyway though because I did reflect on your questions, anyway, regardless of your not being the slightest bit interested in my answers/responses.
You've decided in good will to take up the cross for the intial poster? To be so very nice & defend this person? Well--I'll return your compliment to me. That was very nice of you, guest.
Here again....my intentions are being stated by you. You've decided that this was my intention? How do you do that? My compliment to you was sincere.
I think I have some idea as to who I'm interacting with. It could be a choice out of several actually & I'm sure we've interacted before.
Could be. Are you basing this interaction on your ideas about "who" you're interacting with, rather than.. about what?
For me....it's what we're talking about that matters. We're both guests for whatever reasons.
Alas-- but I'm not engaging anymore for no other reason than it is a waste of time.
That's ok. Maybe you won't bother reading this response. That's ok too. That's up to you isn't it? I don't think it was a waste of my time.
Out of respect--I do draw a distinction between you and the other guest
(Taunts edited out--Richard Grossman)
I just read your post a few minutes ago so I didn't see the taunts that were edited out. Thankyou Dr. G for bothering to do that.
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Reality checks from my experience....
He may well think about you. I wouldn't assume he doesn't. But he compartmentalizes it and acts out addictively so you wouldn't know it.
It isn't a sign of health to move on quickly. It's a sign of superficiality and anxiety.
If he has to lie then he probably feels guilty about "looking bad" about something he did. This denotes some level of self-recognition that he's a jerk. Not that it matters.
bunny
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on the surface maybe but unlikely to very deep or meaningful?
Good point. Highly likely but I have no means to prove it. Don't need to except on days when I am overwhelmed and lose perspective.
Too bad you don't have access to inside information about your ex's relationship because you would likely see him treating her the way he treated you and you would feel much better about no longer being with him.
In what I'm learning about NPD this is highly likely, too. When the roots don't run deep it's easy for the tree to topple. From the little bit of I have learned about the new woman she sounds successful (financially anyway). And he's relocated to a far more exciting community than where we settled a year ago (I'm still here). So during low ebbs I can easily glorify or idealize his world (all that glitters isn't gold) and get into the 'poor-me' syndrome (Cinderella "in my own little corner with my own little chair" - yuk!).
It isn't a sign of health to move on quickly. It's a sign of superficiality and anxiety.
So true. It just gnaws at me when I compare my insides to his outside veneer. I look the fool (ego balderdash, really) and he appears to be jazzin-up-the-town fine. But books and covers aren't always what they seem.
Well, I am trying to break out of doldrums and a bit of lethargy. In reviewing career options I've made a decision and was informed yesterday that I am conditionally accepted to a graduate program (pending completed paperwork). When I spoke to the department head earlier this week I got excited about the many possibilities this could open up (besides I love a university environment - it's energizing). So I start classes on Monday (eegad - grades/exams/deadlines - am I nuts?!!) :shock: Onward and upward, hopefully!
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Ooops - that was me in a hurry.
Best,
bludie
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He may well think about you. I wouldn't assume he doesn't. But he compartmentalizes it and acts out addictively so you wouldn't know it.
It isn't a sign of health to move on quickly. It's a sign of superficiality and anxiety.
If he has to lie then he probably feels guilty about "looking bad" about something he did. This denotes some level of self-recognition that he's a jerk. Not that it matters.
Reading this felt good. Thanks Bunny. Also, I looked at Stephen Carter's web site. How do you know he now links Commitment Phobia to NPD? I would really like to see what he's had to say about NPD so any direction you can point me in would be appreciated.
In reviewing career options I've made a decision and was informed yesterday that I am conditionally accepted to a graduate program (pending completed paperwork). When I spoke to the department head earlier this week I got excited about the many possibilities this could open up (besides I love a university environment - it's energizing). So I start classes on Monday (eegad - grades/exams/deadlines - am I nuts?!!) Onward and upward, hopefully!
Wow, Bludie, that is REALLY exciting! I think that grad school will get your mind off your ex-N. It will also engage your mind and put you in contact with new people. May I ask what you have decided to study? I wish I felt like going back to school. It is such a nicely packaged, tangible goal. But, I already have a Master's and can't think of another degree I want badly enough to do all that work! I wouldn't mind studying Sociology or Comparative Religions, but, I think I am just not motivated enough.
I am feeling SO MUCH better today. I have been having intense feelings of gratitude to my guardian angels for preventing that marriage to this really messed up guy! My friends and family have said all along that I was so lucky but I really didn't feel lucky until very recently. Also, my intense feelings have subsided. I no longer miss him at all. And I have gotten used to being single again and am feeling OK about that. I am not currently deeply longing for a relationship. Yay!!!!! Hope this lasts!
Confused2 (I think I'll change my name now to Chandra)
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Confused2 aka Chandra,
Glad to hear you're feeling better and had a nice day. It is so good when the light at the end of the tunnel doesn't appear to be a train!
It will also engage your mind and put you in contact with new people. May I ask what you have decided to study?
Yup - I'm looking forward to wrapping my head around something else other than my problems. MBA-communications emphasis.
I am not currently deeply longing for a relationship. Yay!!!!! Hope this lasts!
Probably a good idea to take a break until you're really over your ex. Dates are fun but I'm not always so good at casual dating and can't even imagine pursuing this for quite some time. Maybe it will take more time to feel differently.
Later gators,
bludie
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Chandra - If you looked at the Q & A where Steven Carter answers people's questions, narcissism comes up; also attachment disorder. He doesn't link the men to NPD per se but to narcissism. There's one answer where he says some of these men have NPD and some are just narcissists.
bludie - Congrats on acceptance to graduate school! Should be exciting. What are you studying?
bunny
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Thanks, bunny! MBA - communications emphasis
Best,
bludie
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Hi Everyone,
I have good news to report. I have finally stopped reading my ex-N's email. I have also finally deleted all of his emails and photos and everything about him from my computer (though I did save it on disks that will go in the closet just in case I ever decide to write a book or look back on this or whatever...).
Here's why I stopped: He met a woman and fell for her. He started to describe the relationship to his friend and how it is different than the one he had with me. He so distorted our relationship that I couldn't even stomach reading it. It really hurt to see him either lie like that or distort like that. I would be hugely surprised if things worked out with this woman. Just a week before he met her, he was still talking about getting breast implants for himself (remember, he wanted to be a transgendered porn star very recently). Interestingly, the day after meeting and really liking this new woman, he placed two new personal ads up on the Internet and get this: one of the photos is of him with MY beautiful dog that I took! What a violation!
I stopped reading his email because it started to be painful. I realized, as many of you have pointed out, that I needed no more evidence of his dysfunction. I realized that reading his email, while providing evidence of his dysfunction, kept me stuck in his energy. Also, I know I would be hurt if, by some miracle, it DID work out with this new woman. I would be back to feeling like it was my fault that he left me. I don't need that, especially since I would never really know the truth about how his relationship with her was going. You can never know those things about a relationship you are not in.
This is only day two of not reading his mail but I am committed to kicking the habit. It is almost as if my healing has to start anew because for the last 8 months since our break up, I have maintained a connection with his life through his email. I was on a real high yesterday because I had made this decision to stop. Today, I feel a bit empty. But I will persevere and hopefully get my life back.
Bludie, how is school going?
Chandra
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You made the right decision, Chandra. I think after a few days the toxins from this man will diminish and you'll feel a lot better about life.
bunny
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Chandra,
I, too felt it necessary to have a look into my n husband's life after he moved out and spied on him. He had left our 22-year marriage for a married woman. I have read e-mails between them and know that he tells her he will be different with her and he has learned from his mistakes. He has also bought her hundreds of dollars worth of Victoria's Secret underwear so he can view her as a porn queen (necessary to his sexual arrousal). She hasn't left her husband yet so she might just be smart enough to see through some of what he is saying. I have read enough, seen enough, learned enough to know how unhealthy he is and how much better off I will be without him. I have fantasies of calling her poor hapless husband and letting him know of her slutty behavior, but I'm not willing to give it any more of my time and energy.
Have I stopped thinking about him, our life together, our life with our children and how much I miss being a family? No. I think about it every day, and every day I wonder how he could so easily have walked away. My therapist feels that in his own sick way he was letting me go because he does care for me at some level and knew he could never give me what I needed. He has crossed over to the dark side, has lost all sense of morality, decency or relationship with God. I am very glad to not be him or the woman he is now choosing to spend his time with.
I do not regret having looked into his private life. It has provided me with some valuable information to protect my future and that of my children. It has helped me to understand that he was never invested in this relationship and probably never loved me. It has helped me to know that this was not my fault. Knowledge is a good thing and when you are dealing with someone who is so deceitful, sometimes you need to do things that are not in character (in other words, think like they do). But I have gotten past it and don't want to see those things anymore. They have lost their healing value and only give pain now. I don't need any more pain. I'm glad you have moved beyond it too. It is a great first step to healing.
Brigid.
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Brigid,
Thank you for sharing your story. Your words resonate so strongly with me. Every time I read someone else's story that is similar to mine, I feel affirmed and sane.
I do not regret having looked into his private life. It has provided me with some valuable information to protect my future and that of my children. It has helped me to understand that he was never invested in this relationship and probably never loved me. It has helped me to know that this was not my fault. Knowledge is a good thing and when you are dealing with someone who is so deceitful, sometimes you need to do things that are not in character (in other words, think like they do). But I have gotten past it and don't want to see those things anymore. They have lost their healing value and only give pain now. I don't need any more pain. I'm glad you have moved beyond it too. It is a great first step to healing.
My N was also never invested in the relationship and probably never loved me although he promised to love me for a thousand lifetimes. The shallow feelings he had for me are all he's really capable of. I am intrigued by your therapist's take on your ex: that he left you because he cares for you in his own sick way. Someone else alluded to this in this thread. I suppose it's possible.
I feel exactly as you do. I know that reading his email for the past 8 months has been incredibly healing. There aren't many people that know I've been reading his mail because one needs to know the entire story and the level of deception that occurred and I don't choose to share the entire story with everyone. So only my closest friends know and they have not judged me for it.
After a day of elation of being free of him, I am very sad today. It is like starting the grieving process anew, though I think it will be abbreviated since I have been grieving all the while I have been reading his email. I can't wait to see what life begins to feel like once I have a few weeks or months of no contact under my belt.
Chandra
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Chandra,
I am nearly delirious from stress and fatigue right now but CONGRATULATIONS!!! I am so jazzed that you've stopped reading his e-mails. I'll give your post its due tomorrow when I am hopefully more coherent. I have wondered about you for days. Am so glad to see you back on the board with this new-found freedom. Bravo!!!
Best,
bludie
PS - school is good. A bit overwhelming. Tons of theory reading and then hands on lab work. Good stuff to wrap my head around though. Today's go-round with the ex-N had me a bit preoccupied but I'll get on the saddle again. Thanks for asking.
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Chandra,
The ups and downs are normal. I can't tell you how many times I've told my therapist how much better I was doing, only to come in the next week in tears. Certain events (holidays, anniversaries) are bound to stir up emotions, but you can somewhat prepare for those. Its the unexpected encounters or correspondence that can suddenly spiral you back to that very sad, angry or lonely place, that are impossible to prepare for and much harder to recover from.
I pray daily for the day when none of this bothers me anymore and I can go through an entire day without giving him a thought. It has gotten better and I think I have more ups than downs now. I have forced myself to get involved in some new activities that had nothing to do with us as a couple. I have been dating a little, but have no interest in anything serious for now, but the new relationships have helped me to learn things about myself.
As many others on this site have said, be kind to yourself and just know that it takes time.
Brigid
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Dear Chandra,
I'm sorry that you have been feeling sad.You have done so well to decide that you don't want or need to look at the emails anymore,but altho this is a step forward perhaps it also seems like the closing of a chapter in your life.
Hang in there,and I think that soon you will feel calmer because you will not have your daily peace of mind disturbed by knowing what is going on in his world. You have been through the time when it still felt necessary to have some connection with him,and now you are moving into a new phase,where your state of mind can become dependent only on you.(And you are the person who knows best what your needs are.
Take care,
Lara.
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Hi everyone,
Thanks to all the support in this thread and also in my other thread:What exactly is wrong with revenge. Lara, Brigid, GFN, Bludie, Bunny (most recent posters), your comments have been most helpful. Can you all come over for dinner tonight? (smile)
Since stopping reading my ex's emails, I have been feeling sad and rejected. Like you Lara, my mind seems to default to thinking about him. Here are the most recent thoughts:
1. That he's not really an N and that I was just needing to believe that in order to feel better about being dumped. (So many of you talk about your N's calling and seeking you out; mine has pretty much stayed away since leaving 8 months ago. However, so many other N qualities I've read about ring true and they were validated by his exwife).
2. So if he's not really an N, there must be something about me that caused him to leave me (I know this is not rational: he has major gender issues along with still being fixated on a woman he was with 10 years ago. He sees her as the love of his life, flawless, perfect, etc..., even though she lost all romantic interest in him a couple of years into their relationship and she is with a new man. They still see each other a few times a year)
3. Reading his email has caused me to feel rejected by omission. He never talks about me and when he does, it's only about how wrong I was for him (this is the guy who seduced me, convinced me I'd been waiting for him for many lifetimes, professed eternal love and devotion in 150 pages of love letters, seemed to be everything I've ever wanted in a man, proposed, sold his home, moved to my city, planned a big wedding with me, bought me a ring, hosted an engagement party, had me spending time with his large family for several days-----and then moved away to buy a house in another state, thereby essentially dumping me with no warning over the course of 4 days time for a bunch of lame reasons (all things he knew about me BEFORE he ever proposed), all the while saying he loved me and was still committed to me. It is still incomprehensible how anyone could do this in the way he did it).
4. He has recently met a new woman, and has apparently fallen for her and she for him. The very next day, however, he put up two new ads on Internet singles web sites looking for women (he has other ads up looking for transsexual men). In one of his new ads, he has a photo of himself with MY dog!!!! I couldn't resist. I wanted to find out what he would say if asked about the dog so I created a false persona--let's call her Lisa (one I knew he would be attracted to) and answered his ad and asked about the dog. He was relatively honest saying the dog was just a friend (even though my dog is NO friend of his, after what he did to me!) Since I'd pledged to give up reading his email, I decided to end this little game right away. "Lisa" wrote him back a brief letter saying she had met a couple of other guys who are geographically closer, and she wished him luck. He wrote back saying how much he wanted to meet "Lisa" because she reminded him of this woman from 10 years ago, and he went ON and ON about this woman and how wonderful she is (not real smart if you are trying to woo someone new). I felt so rejected again! It's as if I never existed and he was ENGAGED to me, for crying out loud! (I guess one has to wonder what he's doing so excited about "Lisa" when he JUST met someone new and supposedly really flipped over her. The poor woman.)
I guess I wouldn't feel quite as horrible if there was EVER a shred of something positive he said about me. But he never does. And that is why I am finally letting go. I'm tired of getting rejected over and over and over again.
It's been a few days of no email reading. I know this is the best thing. I feel pretty depressed. I am not going to fight the depression. It almost feels comforting. I have no expectations of myself. I can just float for a while. I feel extremely unmotivated to try and meet someone new. I am depleted. I wonder if I am getting peri-menopausal? I am 47. Maybe my hormones are starting to fluctuate and affect my moods.
I so wish I had never met this man who threw my heart against the wall and walked away as if I never existed.
Sorry for going on and on, but thanks to anyone who reads this for "listening."
Chandra
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Chandra,
This guy lives in an intense fantasy world most, if not all, the time. He is so out of touch that he had no idea you were "Lisa" and didn't even suspect it. Then he went on and on about some other woman! What a wierdo! If that isn't narcissistic I don't know what is.
If he's not including you in his tales to others, maybe it's because he has some guilt about what he did to you, and doesn't want to refer to the entire episode. Even if he talked about you as he talks about this other woman from 10 years ago, it's all distorted confabulations. I don't think he lives in reality as we know it.
Again, you dodged a bullet big time but it was traumatic.
bunny
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Chandra: I have read this thread with much interest. I think everyone who responded to you has given you good things to consider. I have a friend who keeps asking her (soon to be) ex: where were you, what were you doing, etc....and she is then striken by his responses. She basically hands him a knife, and tells him where to stab her!
Reading/knowing/caring about your ex's doings probably felt like that for you, too, so you sound healthier as you move away from that.
What do you want? (his name is not supposed to be any part of that answer.) That's what counts.
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Chandra,
My soon-to-be-ex N husband NEVER contacts me unless it is via e-mail telling me that he will be out of town when he is suppose to have his daughter (never, of course, asking if that is a problem for me, but assuming I have no life and am there to service him). I won't even respond to his e-mails anymore. He is a total and complete coward and is afraid I will tell him what I think of him, so he never calls me and screens my calls and won't answer if I try to call him. I would not have known he was an N, but my therapist who saw us as a couple for 6 weeks (and saw him alone once a week during that time) told me he was one of the worst cases he had ever encountered. So just because your ex-fiance doesn't contact you doesn't mean he is not NPD.
As I read through this entire thread, I can't help but feel how lucky you were that you did not marry this man. He is seriously disturbed. He has gender identity issues and probably can't decide if he wants to be straight or gay. Your life with him would have been doomed.
You have nothing to be gained by continuing to be in any contact with him, even if it is under false pretenses. It only serves to hurt you further. I know how much it hurts to be left so suddenly, but over time you will realize it is for the best and you now have a chance to find true happiness. Any woman he ends up with will be miserable or be gone in very short order and you will be so glad that you do not have a marriage that needs to be undone.
I hope you have a good therapist to help you through this.
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Chandra dear,
Just reading your post makes me sad. Sad for you. Again, it is terrific that you stopped with the e-mails and put this behind you. It is very hard to let go. Inquiring minds want to know. I have cut off or lost all means of knowing much about my ex-N-fiance. Initially it was a horrible feeling. To go from the intention of spending lives together to a total vaccuum is tough. Your remaining current on his comings and goings may have been a distraction from the pain for a while. Now you're sad and it's overwhelming.
1. That he's not really an N and that I was just needing to believe that in order to feel better about being dumped.
I know what you mean. I questioned whether it was the spin I put on our history so as to avoid the feeling of being a Kleenex in his life. As for being pursued, the only thing he wanted from me was a few more swipes at my self-esteem and some money.
2. So if he's not really an N, there must be something about me that caused him to leave me
As you said, not rational, but totally understandable insofar as how you feel. Having a failed marriage and a series of monogamous relationships go by the bye, I have a lot of wondering going on about the "is there something with me" syndrome.
3. Reading his email has caused me to feel rejected by omission. He never talks about me and when he does, it's only about how wrong I was for him
Perhaps he's still trying to convince himself and rewrite history in his mind about your relationship. As bunny pointed out, he lives in fantasy. You come across as real, grounded and self-aware. You're way too healthy for him.
4. He has recently met a new woman, and has apparently fallen for her and she for him. The very next day, however, he put up two new ads on Internet singles web sites looking for women (he has other ads up looking for transsexual men).
Chandra, he is a total whack job. He doesn't know who he is or what he wants. I pity the next woman because he carries that much more baggage with him. Plus he is confused about his sexual identity and hasn't followed through with his transgender plan.
Since I'd pledged to give up reading his email, I decided to end this little game right away. "Lisa" wrote him back a brief letter saying she had met a couple of other guys who are geographically closer, and she wished him luck. He wrote back saying how much he wanted to meet "Lisa" because she reminded him of this woman from 10 years ago, and he went ON and ON about this woman and how wonderful she is (not real smart if you are trying to woo someone new).
Very glad to hear you won't pursue this, "Lisa." Because he lives in a fantasy and may have guilt and conflicted feelings about you, that is too much reality. You won't be mentioned or a part of his fantasy world.
I am sorry for you and know you loved him. However, good riddance to bad rubbish as they say, here, in the Midwest!
I guess I wouldn't feel quite as horrible if there was EVER a shred of something positive he said about me. But he never does.
Yup, I would feel the same. When my ex-AM called the other day and in a low, emotional tone said: "I have something to say. It comes from my heart and is as true as I can be...." and then went into how I ripped him off and ruptured his world, I could not friggin' believe it. My heart skipped a beat because I thought, perhaps, he had some reflective thoughts about us, or me, or my daughter. Nope. All about him. Always was, to be butt-honest.
I feel extremely unmotivated to try and meet someone new. I am depleted.
Way too soon. It's just going to suck for a while, Chandra, and then -- little by little and day by day -- things (you) will feel better.
I wonder if I am getting peri-menopausal? I am 47. Maybe my hormones are starting to fluctuate and affect my moods.
Have had the same curiosity and some of the same symptoms. If not peri-menopausal, perhaps situational depression?
I so wish I had never met this man who threw my heart against the wall and walked away as if I never existed.
Yes, I truly wish that most days myself. Last night I had a meltdown and thought: "What is the spiritual lesson in all of this? There was nothing spiritual about how things ended." Thank goodness there are tomorrows, which bring brighter days. I feel for you, Chandra. Good to have you back and keep posting.
Best,
bludie
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Bunny, Mum, Brigid, Bludie,
Thank you all for the reality check. I wonder why it is so hard to keep my brain engaged because when I do, I am FINE. It's just when my emotions kick in, I get confused and sad.
All of you who pointed out that he lives in fantasy are SO RIGHT. This guy was seriously exploring getting breast implants just a week before he met this new woman. And in his transgender ad he says that he's never been with a man or a t-girl (a man who dresses as a woman) before but he is beginning to realize that this is what he is truly seeking in a romance.
Some of you mentioned that he probably feels a certain amount of conflict and possibly guilt over what he did with me (though, supposedly N's don't feel guilt). I think you are right. The reason he ran away from me so fast is because I was TOO appropriate for him. We were HUGELY compatible, (apart from the fact that I am relatively sane he is a nutcase :) Yes, his fixation on the woman from 10 years ago is an excuse. It is a completely asexual fantasy. I've read that N's sometimes compartmentalize women into ones they love that they don't have sex with, and ones they have sex with that they can't love. I think that's what's going with this 10 year woman.
Bludie, you suggested that I am too grounded for him. I am pretty grounded and self aware and responsible. I have my financial act together even though I have never been in a high paying field. I think it's entirely possible that he envies me. My net worth is 20 times his even though he's made hundreds of thousands of dollars more than I have. He just blows it with his impulsiveness. That is the one thing that I am consistently happy to have avoided through marriage to him: merging my good finances with his reckless ones.
Bunny, please point me in the direction of your original story on this board if there is one. You consistently nail things right on the head. It makes me wonder what your N experience was and how you understand these N behaviors so well.
I really love it when all of you point out what a whack job this guy is. HE IS!!! Why do I keep forgetting that? What's really odd is that he has people that like him and that confused me (when I was still reading his mail). How can all these people not see through his stuff? Of course, he lifestyle is such that he travels a lot and sees these people very infrequently. Maybe that's how he can keep up the facade of being a good guy. His son doesn't think much of him and his ex-wife won't even talk to him.
Bludie, it's so true what you said about him carrying that much more unpacked baggage with this new woman. I am part of that baggage. You are right. He IS trying to rewrite history when it comes to me. I am the first woman since his wife that he brought to meet his large family that he's very close with. He didn't even bring the 10 year "fantasy" woman home.
Brigid, when you say your soon to be ex is a total and complete coward who avoids talking to you because he's afraid you'll tell him what you think of him....I can well relate to that. I think my ex is also a coward. In fact, he DID write to me a few months ago. He tried to come off loving and magnanimous and spiritual but since I'd been reading his email, I knew his words were false. Besides, he sent the email to me through some mutual friends of ours in order to save face with them. Long story short: I told him exactly what I thought of him in a pretty controlled way and sent the letter via our friends just as he did. No wonder he's afraid of making further contact with me.
Bunny, my best friend also thought it extremely odd that he didn't even suspect "Lisa" was me. I asked specifically about the dog. It is a web site for vegetarians and vegans and there aren't that many of us. He should have figured it out.
About my dog, the reason it is such a violation is that my dog is like my child (since I have no children and ADORE this dog) and he knows it. She is a strikingly beautiful animal and he is essentially exploiting her to get attention for his ad. Women like men who like dogs and this photo is one I took of the two of them when we were just newly engaged and at the height of our love. Why is he using that photo? Is it just another F.U. to me?
Thank you all again for the therapy. I feel much better. I will print out your letters and hang them on my refrigerator.
Love,
Chandra
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Chandra: you sound good. As in healthy. As far as the dog goes: another possible FU to you, but more likely, he's not even really thinking that way....just "what can this do for ME?"
My ex pursues a relationship with my one brother in law who will still speak to him....not so much to say FU to me, but more to say "I still win" with my big family (there are about 40 others who won't speak to him) and because that brother in law is very vulnerable at this time. Used to get to me, but now I'm going to view it as your ex and the dog picture. He doesn't really care about the dog at all, just "what can this do for me".
I know you do this, but continue to count your blessings. No marriage to him, no kids with him. Sounds wonderful. HE really could fall off the face of the earth (like I wish mine would) and you really wouldn't have to notice.
Point yourself in that direction!
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Chandra,
I had to chuckle when I read the part where you said you were the first woman to be introduced to his family. One of the realities I have come to is that my husband married me because I was the first woman with whom he was in a serious relationship that was appropriate enough to bring home to his family. I am educated, well-spoken, came from an educated family, etc., all of which mattered a great deal to his parents. His previous relationships were with women I would have to classify as cheap. I always wondered about that until I finally found out about his addiction to pornography. Now it makes perfect sense. It also explains why he could not be intimate with me--I was too appropriate and thus reminded him too much of his mother.
I can pretty much guarantee you that had you married this man, you would have spent the rest of your life with him (I doubt that would have been very long) looking over your shoulder wondering how he was playing out all those sexual fantasies and sordid behaviors and most likely your intimate life would have come to a screeching halt.
Again I say, count your blessings!!
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Hi Chandra,
Two thoughts come to my mind.Firstly, you sounded perhaps a little hurt that your ex hadn't tried to contact you for eight months.I don't know if you are hurt by it, but I know that's how I felt when my ex made no attempt to contact me.Eight months of silence after five years of constant contact...I felt as if I had been instantly forgotten. But please note that when these people HAVE made contact again,there has not been much behind the words.My ex has now contacted me several times since his eight months' silence, but he has never ONCE asked how I am (my health was bad when we split up,) how my career is going, etc. He has shown zero interest in anything to do with me.
Secondly,you ask why you keep forgetting what a 'whack job' your ex is. My feeling is that now you have taken the very strong decision to stop reading his emails, you will slowly start to detach from him, and that as you get more distance you will be able to look at him more objectively. This has BEGUN to happen to me recently.I think it's been due to the support and the feedback I've received on this site. When we are still 'under the influence' of these men (or women) we just can't see things straight. I would have defended my ex's EVERY ACTION to the highest court in the land until recently.
Give your feelings time dear Chandra.
Sincerely,
Lara.
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Dear Mum and Brigid,
My mother, who is largely non-religious, upon finding out all the stuff about my ex, told me to immediately go to a church or synagogue or mosque for that matter, and light candles thanking the deities for my escape from this marriage. I think that echoes all of your advice about counting my blessings.
Brigid, it is so ironic because part of the magic of this relationship was the what-seemed-to-be-incredible physical relationship that we shared. But his ex wife told me that he lost interest in sex pretty quickly into their 8 year marriage. And even in the several months we were together, I noticed a couple things that might have been clues to an eventual loss of interest on his part.
As for bringing me around to meet his family, I now think part of this might have been a need to show them that he IS capable of being in a relationship, he IS capable of being with a woman (which, of course, he's NOT). So much of his excitement about our "grand" wedding was about showing off to the world (how Narcissistic is THAT?).
Bunny, in a post to Lara (I think), you said that when we stop thinking about N's, they can feel it and they lose energy. Sometimes, it causes them to come around. I have seen this phenomenon in action. It seems when you completely let go of someone, you hear from them. I wouldn't be entirely surprised to hear from my N once I stop thinking about him. I'm sure I would be caught off guard and am not sure what I'd do. I'd probably just be curious about what he had to say. But, this may never happen and that's just as well.
The one year anniversary of our first contact is coming up next Saturday. I think I will use it to do some additional purging ceremonies: sage my house, burn some of his emails, do some kind of re-birthing ritual for myself----stuff like that. I will banish his sick energies from my psyche, hopefully forever.
Chandra
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Hi Lara,
We must have been posting at the same time this morning, so I missed acknowledging your comments.
Thanks for pointing out that I am missing nothing by the fact that he hasn't attempted to contact me. As I mentioned in a previous post, the one time he DID contact me was completely bogus and transparent and my reply to him put him in his place without being overly viscious. I was happy with my reply. It was honest and sane-sounding, rather than angry and crazy-sounding. In a post Bunny wrote a while back, she mentions something called "linking" (????) where N's can't tolerate someone rationally outlining reality. That's what he can't tolerate about me: that I am fairly capable of bottom-lining his bad behavior and that I won't back down. I have a background in counseling and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he felt threatened by that. I could shine a spotlight on his disorders. That's why he ran so fast. When we were engaged, we used to joke that how he has his very own mental health professional, because, g-d knows, he sure needs one!
I can already see the positive effects of disconnecting from his email and thereby, his life. I'm excited to see how I'll feel a few weeks from now and then a few months from now.
This site has been so valuable. This is my first experience posting to a board like this. I am highly impressed with the quality of the people who participate. Thank you all!
Chandra
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned this to you yet, but I would highly recommend "Why is it always about you: The 7 sins of narcissism."
I read it because I grew up in a narcissistic household and it changed my life. One of the hallmarks of the N family situation is a real lack of boundaries. It makes sense, since the parents don't think of the children as people apart from them.
I read it to figure out how they had affected me, and the thing that stuck me most forcefully was how I didn't really have a clue about boundaries myself! The book talks about lack of boundaries at work, in relationships, etc. and boy was I doing a lot of that boundary-crossing. I had no idea! When I was young I always snooped in my boyfriends houses when they weren't around. I tried very hard a couple of years ago to figure out why an ex broke up with me, and if I had had access to his e-mail I would have read it! I just thought of it as "science" and gathering information and a way to get over him. Heck, when I was younger I used to drive by an ex's house to see what he was up to! It was just irresistable. Writing it makes me cringe, but there you go. You're not alone.
All of which is a long-winded way of saying that the desire to be with him in the first place, and the desire to read his e-mail, has roots in something about your family and your parents, I would just bet. The next time you want to snoop, go to the bookstore or go on Amazon and buy some books on narcissism and see if anything rings a bell. And feel free to come here and share your feelings with us-- that might help, too!
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To the last Guest who posted a reply:
Please read through the entire thread, if you are interested. There were a lot of opinions, pro and con, about the value of reading his email, at least for a time. That time has come to an end. I'm done and I haven't felt the need to do it again.
My mother has N tendencies and I've worked hard to make sure she doesn't subsume me. I've made good progress.
I think my own boundaries are reasonably healthy. I have been in several relationships. This is the first time I have been betrayed to this degree. This is the first time I have needed to find out the truth and use whatever means were available to me. I've had relationships that ended sadly, but never ones that ended so badly. I keep a journal and have for decades. I believe in karma. I don't want anyone to read my personal journals, and I am very conscious of respecting the privacy of others. As I look at my life and my behavior, I see that this is an isolated incident of "crossing boundaries" and it had a very specific purpose and I am very glad I had this opportunity to learn the truth.
Now here's something that MAY actually be a problem: I am still pretty upset that he caused me this much pain and possibly harm and walked away scott free. I am not happy with that at all. It's time to revisit the What Exactly is Wrong with Revenge thread I started, because I am still wanting some kind of justice.
Society punishes criminals. You commit a crime, you pay for it. What is the difference between that and some approriate form of retribution for a crime of the heart? I am struggling with what would be appropriate in this case. What would feel satifsying? What would put closure on this for me? I don't want him dead or sick. I want him to suffer in proportion to the suffering he caused me. I wish our society had courts for stuff like this.
Chandra
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Look, life will dish him up all the hurts that could satisfy you.
The life of a two-bit unattractive 50-year-old would-be porn-star transvestite is hardly one to be envied is it??? Or is it?
This guy is a loser. That's your revenge. Portia
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Portia,
I think I may copy and paste and continue part of this discussion back in the Revenge thread.
Here's the thing about this guy: he's VERY attractive, VERY charming, has a GREAT body as he works out all the time, is a gifted athlete, is well-employed, lives in a beautiful house, and has a lot of people convinced he's warm, caring and sincere. (When he's dressed as a woman, from the photos I've seen, I think he looks gawd-awful and definitely too old to be a porn star----but I think the porn star thing is just another one of his vivid fantasies, since he's back in a hetero mode for the time being). As a man, he comes off as VERY desirable and women are simply attracted to him. And he is a gifted writer and has the ability to tell a woman all the right things. So, he will continue to get away with bad behavior.
This is what really irks me.
It's been a week since I quit the email reading. Maybe I am just purging the last bit of toxicity from my system. I hope so. I'll see how I feel in a few more weeks.
Chandra
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Chandra,
I see many common characteristics between your N and mine. Mine is very charming, attractive, wealthy and gives women the impression that he really listens to them and "feels their pain." He also has the whole porn thing going on, but as far as I know, it is still at the stage where he wants his partner to look the part. I don't know his married girlfriend, but I'm assuming she must have some dysfunctions of her own to be attracted to and willing to go along with his desires.
He never told me about his fantasies during our marriage, but when he saw me as totally vulnerable, weak and desperate after he broke the news of wanting a divorce, he knew he could get me to do anything he wanted. After six weeks of getting everything he wanted and totally dominating me, he left. It is very humiliating to think back on what I was willing to do to try to save our marriage. This has been the hardest part from which to recover. That he would take such pleasure from my pain is hurtful beyond words. I was certainly not the perfect wife, but don't think I did anything to deserve that.
There are many people in our community who still like him a great deal. As I've said before, I wish I could take out a billboard to tell them all the truth.
I have fantasized about what kind of revenge would be appropriate. I do believe that what goes around, comes around. He will get his someday. Whether he will recognize it is questionable. It will not come from me. It is beneath me to bother. As I've also said before, my life as a success without him will be my greatest revenge.
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Now here's something that MAY actually be a problem: I am still pretty upset that he caused me this much pain and possibly harm and walked away scott free. I am not happy with that at all. It's time to revisit the What Exactly is Wrong with Revenge thread I started, because I am still wanting some kind of justice.
Society punishes criminals. You commit a crime, you pay for it. What is the difference between that and some approriate form of retribution for a crime of the heart? I am struggling with what would be appropriate in this case. What would feel satifsying? What would put closure on this for me? I don't want him dead or sick. I want him to suffer in proportion to the suffering he caused me. I wish our society had courts for stuff like this.
This makes perfect sense and is very human, but it's also very narcissistic. This sort of instinct is what causes narcissism-- early in childhood. And it's what narcissists teach their children in turn. I guess I'd still recommend reading about what a narcissistic family does to a child as a way to deal with these fantasies. I only say this because it helped me learn how to deal with that kind of anger.
Earlier someone mentioned that the thread was split on whether reading this guy's e-mails was ok. That really scares me. It just isn't ok, no matter what-- using arguments that it's ok because of what the reader wants or needs is really narcissistic.
One thing that worries me about this board is it sets us all up as the judges, complaining about those N others. It doesn't seem allowed to suggest alternatives to the "they are terrible" line of reasoning-- which I am not sure helps any of us. Some of this is our fault, too-- if only because we picked them/let them affect us.
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Earlier someone mentioned that the thread was split on whether reading this guy's e-mails was ok. That really scares me. It just isn't ok, no matter what-- using arguments that it's ok because of what the reader wants or needs is really narcissistic.
Well it doesn't matter whether the vote count was for or against reading his email. She has stopped doing it. All the musing about whether or not it was okay was basically people processing their feelings.
One thing that worries me about this board is it sets us all up as the judges, complaining about those N others. It doesn't seem allowed to suggest alternatives to the "they are terrible" line of reasoning-- which I am not sure helps any of us. Some of this is our fault, too-- if only because we picked them/let them affect us.
There are posters in this group suggesting alternatives to the "they are terrible" line of thinking.
And some people are just finding out about narcissism and a lot of feelings are coming up. And some people had such nightmarish childhoods that they have to keep processing and processing. And they may need to do this polarizing stuff. It's just people processing feelings. That's how I see it.
bunny
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You're right-- there really are stages to all of this! And it definitely doesn't all go linearly (I've had my share of going around in circles....)
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Hi! Boy can I relate to your feelings and horrific experience with your n. I too had very crazy making and scarring experience of relationship- my term as N's are incapable of any relationship-. I ended it a few weeks ago and kicked him out. I was at the point where I was losing my sanity and my health. My n., like yours, was a somatic N. I discovered a whole secret life involving his life long preferred sexual activity involving countless hours daily masturbating to porn, sex chat rooms and phone services( pardon the pun!). Then I began to - intellectually- get what was happening to our relationship and sex life. This has been the strangest trip I've ever been on and it has completely screwed up my own sexuality. I endured the intense seemingly whole and loving sex life in the beginning. It quickly degenerated into months of no sex under the guise of impotency caused by his antidepressants- then he got Viagra- not for us- but to continue his masturbating to porn. More often than not there was an enduring and escalating patttern of his sexually frustrating and punishing me in a very twisted sadistic sense. He would begin playing around and when I was aroused, he'd look at me and smile- " goodnight"- and roll over- even though he had an erection. Theses behaviours are text book examples of behaviur by a somatic N. I was merely a vessel for him to masturbate into.I was and had been aall along, just an object. However the adoration and the beginning declarations of " this is the best sex I've ever had" turned into, with lightening speed, being devalued and criticized for the same qualities he so allegedly found vital and " different from any of my other women". I am now totally questioning my own sexuality and trust issues.I feel especially weirded out- and likely inappropriately guilty- because I incorporated clothes and role play into our sex life in the beginning which I have with most of my other healthy relationships. Little did i know at the time that I was objectifying myself into his porn fantasies and that's why he could always respond sexually- not to me, but to the stilettoes etc. I'm so freaked out now fixated on restricting myself- in future- to white bread sex as I'm terrified of this happening again. and I can't trust it won't. bottom line- the N. carefully picks and grooms their prey- that's all we are and that's all the N. is capable of being- a predator- and they cannot change. They have zero empathy and think there is nothing wrong with them so why go into therapy or change for anyone else? It's totally understandable that we survivors get stuck in the incredible mourning phase- more intense than any of your other relationships- exactly because the N. learns all your buttons and promises the world and seeming unconditional love. You think you'll never find that again- although you never did- and you're brainwashed into believing You are the one with the problems. Get back into the life you likely let slip away- reconnect with friends, seek out supportive people who won't judge you as a weak person, get back into activities you enjoyed and found nourishing, explore new avenues. I'm just starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. even though we know intellectually life will improve and you deserve happiness. The fear and anxiety and incredible sadness are overwhelming due to the crushing blow to your heart and soul. this is so empowering and healing to connect here with others. Hang in there.
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Hi- a few comments on this access to email. My N gave access to one of his emails- denied having any other accounts, however through this one I discovered at least 50 others. He said " I wouldn't have given it to you if I didn't trust you and now you can see I have nothing to hide". My N. is a sex addict , a fact I stumbled into. i'm the first person in his life to discover the double life. He is 52 and has been compulsively masturbating daily for hours to internet porn, sex chat room, phone sex etc. for a somatic n. this is their only method of sex- preferred to sex with a real partner. Sex with a real women is nothing more than using her for a vessel to masturbate. N's are masters of provoking you and when I confronted him with his addiction, I was told I was delusional, psychotic etc. He made calls to friends, my family and my shrink alleging above. He delighted in then spending time manufacturing " evidence" that would " prove I was the liar". Months of no sex- sexual anorexia, short bursts of intense sex just to keep you hooked and abuse you, and endless cycles of sexual sadism and frustration. I spent countless hours surfing his email, reading and then delting really disgusting stuf, obsessing till it was destroying me. Checking his email became my addiction. Typical co dependent behaviour. My N. also knew and exploited my OCD knowing I'd help drive myself nuts as well as provide him with endless entertainment torturing me . I ended it by changing his password. When I no longer could check, I had nothing to " accuse" him of and he had his supply of negative interaction- N's thrive on hostility as adoration as well as mimicing intense love- cut off. Nothing better to shut down a N. than refusing to engage at all and act bored. Hang in there.
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Moira,
As I was reading your first post I had to look to see if my name was attached as the experience is so similar. My now xnh had all the same issues, but kept it hidden from me for nearly 20 years. For most of that time we had a very limited sex life with him making all the same excuses. When he finally decided he was leaving me for another woman, he started admitting to his deviate behaviors--extensive viewing of porn accompanied by masturbation and finally moving on to having an affair. At one point he was getting testosterone injections, but claimed they didn't make any difference (this was years ago), but finally admitted that they had indeed worked, but he just watched more porn and masturbated more often. He became impotent with me and eventually started taking Viagra. Toward the end of the marriage, he would basically have to masturbate himself to an orgasm and would not let me touch him. My T thinks there are probably many more behaviors he engaged in that I will never know about. The woman he left me for is married and after nearly 2 years, is still married. I don't even know if they are still together, but he will probably choose women like that forever more because they are not truly "available" and there is no risk of intimacy.
I went through a period (at the end when I was stupidly trying to save the marriage), when I allowed myself to dress and behave in ways that would be exciting to him. We engaged in a great deal of sex during that time because 1. He had already decided he was leaving the marriage and I was no longer his "wife", and 2. Because he could view me as one of the whores in his porn movies and I became, as you said, just a vessel. The most disturbing part is that his degrading and humiliation of me gave him great enjoyment and pleasure.
Thank God I had a T who could explain all this to me (he did see my xh for 6 weeks) and finally explained that he was an n. Otherwise, I would probably still be in a state of shock and blaming myself. I still go to therapy twice a month, but after nearly 2 years have gotten beyond the loss of my marriage and am just concentrating on me now. I hope you can do the same.
It is scary to start moving forward and meet new people after this kind of experience. I do think I have learned a lot in therapy and will be much more aware of the red flags going up. Only time will tell.
Blessings,
Brigid
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Thanks Brigid for your support. when I talk about this with some of my colleagues and friends, they react with shock. They see me as this strong independant woman who is psychiatrically astute. I feel sometimes some of them see me as stupid and weak. How could she choose and then put up with that kind of abuse? i know they don't mean to hurt me by this and frankly I don't blame them for thinking this. That is my biggest question and my bigger fear I may chose another N down the road. This whole sex addiction combined with N. is devestating. My sexuality is in the toilet and my concept of myself sexually is pretty shakey. The thought of sex terrifies me. The thought of trusting a man again terrifies me. I can't even watch anything on TV due to the constant bombardment of sex everywhere. I plan on a hiatus of celibacy and no dating for a long time to figure out this stuff and heal. My mother, who recently died, was a supreme cerebral N. When she died in Feb., my rose coloured glasses were finally knocked off. Considering I am in a helping profession and was the buffer during my childhood between my younger siblings and my mother's crazy making behaviour- it's no wonder I ended up in this relationship. I am finding the codependent group very supportive and educational even though I know this information intellectually and counsel people all day long on it. I am considering seeing a sex therspist who specializes in sex addiction and effects on partners in order to work through my sexual identity issues and fear. sorry about the multiple entries on same topic- am newbie and a computer ludite! Think I have it figured out now!
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Hi Brigid! Good Celtic Irish name too! Anyway- interesting how almost identical our stories are eh?! Just one more tidbit- interested if this rings true with you or anyone else with somatic N with sex addiction. One of the first things I found out about his experiences with women was that for his entire sexual life with real women, he has NEVER been able to orgasm or ejaculate. I've never run across this before but something tells me this may not be unusual. When I attempted to discuss this, he, of course, got pissed off saying" What's the problem? All you women are so concerned about it...why?" He then alleged this was due to his having- allegedly- had " some additional work following his childhood circumcision where they had to do a wee bit of extra snipping". Now I'm a nurse and this physiologically makes absolutely no sense! Tellingly he has had NO problem masturbating for hours a day and can have orgasms! how's that for a major psychological hang up and how convenient for reinforcing his sole preferred sex life as masturbation to objects is his only way to get off. Of course, he adamantly denies he can even climax at all through masturbation- although I've witnessed it numerous times when we were having sex- I guess he presumes because I'm myopic I didn't see this! He couldn't ever orgasm even with his myriad hookers, strippers, escorts, teenager, brothers' wives....etc. How screwed up is that??? curious!
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Moira,
I love your name too. :D
Well, my xh must have been able to orgasm as he was able to father 3 children (only one went to term) with me. I'm quite sure I would have insisted on therapy many years ago if that had been the problem--particularly when we were trying to conceive.
My experience was that over time (and mind you, we were together for 25 years), the sex just kept diminishing to about 5-6 times per year at the end. When it did happen, it was always initiated by me, quite often it would fail, even with the introduction of Viagra, and more often than not he would manipulate himself to nearly an orgasm before penetration. It became so bizzare to me and I tried to get him to talk about it and seek therapy, but I always just heard the excuses. He was taking antidepressants for supposed dysthymia that he blamed, his age (he was 5 years younger than me), stress of work, etc., etc.
During the entire 25 years, I was completely unaware of his sex addiction. Only after he moved out did I start to do some investigating and found hundreds of porn website hits, CD's, DVD's, videos, books, toys, etc. hidden in his drawers and closet. I had always completely trusted him and had never had a reason to seek something other than medical answers to his low sex drive. I certainly never thought I had to worry about him cheating on me, as he professed to have so little interest in having sex. He can have it all right, but only with himself or someone who is unavailable emotionally.
The whole thing disgusts me and I hate that I was so blind to it and trusted him so completely. He has been and always will be a consumate liar who can ooze charm, but not feel a damn thing.
Brigid