Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Mywiveand I on January 11, 2005, 03:36:35 PM
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The Letter I couldn’t send, because it would have been misinterpreted. It was good therapy anyway.
Dear Daughter ( Names removed )
The actions of you (28) and your older sister (30) over the last couple years have been beyond anything I have ever seen or heard of in any family. (That is until now it seems we all are in the same row boat! )
The shunning ( not religious but then (-----) has told us that you told her that you and her could not look to us for counsel anymore because we had left the truth ) ( In the past you have instructed us not to say anything about Grace, and if I can see anything about the situation we find our selves in now there is one thing that is missing here and that is Grace and love also known as empathy ) ( also we do not want to counsel you in the first place because if we did and our advice turned out to be wrong we would responsible and have to take the blame. All the blame for your actions with us is on us any way isn’t it. This is good insulation to keep both of your hearts from feeling shame or responsibility for the actions that have been and are now being taken against us. Just blame Mom and Dad, they deserve what they are getting. ) The turning against over night. The Total lack of empathy. The total lack of shame. The total Lack of remorse. It has been shocking and disturbing to say the least.
One of the things we were told when you and (----) decided to put us on this road of rejection shaming belittling and ridicule was that we needed to get help. We were confused by this and felt that we must have done something wrong that caused us to deserve this kind of treatment.
The treatment I am referring to is the placing of boundaries. ( There are good boundaries and bad boundaries when a N puts Boundries on you hang onto your hat you are fixing to go on a rough ride! ) The main one being we could not talk about anything to you or (---) deemed negative. This also boxed us in so we could not question any of your treatment of us. Both of you have seen counselors and represented us to those counselors. The proclamation was made to us that we were dysfunctional. The results of this were that we must be contained and controlled. Since that time (----) has told both of us at her apartment pool. That all that we did in reaching out to people over the years was because we were co dependant. That we never loved any one. I asked her who we didn’t love, she named (------) and many others. She said we also didn’t even love our two little girls. I asked her if she still had her photo album. She said all she saw in it were pictures of a sad unhappy little girl. ( We made six large albums of their growing up years, we did everything you can imajine as a family together! ) In your growing up I felt there was a great importance in keeping memories. That is why I worked in the tape ministry at church because the good things in life need to be remembered. I took all those pictures of your growing up because we had wonderful times together. All of that is now looked at through different eyes and all these new eyes can see is unhappiness and sadness. I thought I was taking pictures for the sake of keeping our memories. Now I find my self having to go to them as hard copy proof that we were caring and loving parents. We know we had our faults. When we raised you we knew enough to know that we needed help in knowing how to raise you. We turned to the best that we had in that day. The books by Dr. James Dobson. We read them and put them into practice. We did our absolute best to give you the best and happiest childhood you could have. With all this effort we still failed. One of our failures was we made ourselves to be your friends and not your parents. We put you on a equal standing you thoughts were as important as our thoughts. We failed to teach you to honor your parents. (the older sister ) told your mother one day while walking on the beach that she was afraid to have two children. When Mom asked why, she said that she had taken you from us at a early age. When she was asked how she did that? She explained when ever we would get onto you for anything she would take you into the back bed room and tell her how wrong we were in getting onto you.
There were some values that we failed to in still in you. We failed to instill empathy in you. Empathy is another word for Love. There is a difference between loving a child and teaching a child to have love. A child loves it’s mother and a mother loves her child. This is not the love that we did not teach. The empathy or love that we somehow failed to instill in you both at a early age was the love the you gain by putting your self in someone else’s shoes.
Empathy is when you judge your actions toward another person through the eyes of “ if I was in his position and he treated me the way I am treating him how would I feel.” This is also know as the Golden Rule “ Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” I did not know how important this one point was.
We asked (----- ) how she would feel if when (her child ) was grown if (her child ) would treat her like she was treating us. Her answer was “We are not even going to go there.” We were surprised by the total lack of empathy that we found there.
( I’m sure that that question was considered manipulation but then every word or card or even to just say we love you is also considered us tring to make them feel bad. Also of course after raising and supporting them and clothing them and all that comes from raising them to expect even to be able to see your grand child ever would be too much. On some of these posts I have noticed that a Non Narcissistic parent gets the same treatment from his Narcissistic children as a Narcissistic parent gets from his Non Narcissistic child! Can anyone help me to understand this! Where is empathy?)
With our failure to teach empathy also came our failure to teach you the value of shame. We failed to teach you that there is a good shame. We failed to teach you to accept the good kind of shame and learn to deal with it in a healthy manner. The foundation of good self-esteem is build on empathy The placing yourself in another’s shoes and the handling of good shame.
It may seem hard to think of shame as being good. We failed to teach this to you, for this I am so sorry. We are seeing the fruit of this failure now. The thought of feeling shame to one who has not been taught how to handle, deal with shame can be very terrifying if you don’t deal with it in a healthy correct way. When you refuse the shame that you feel when you do wrong and you place the blame on someone else, this is the beginning of the choice to put on a false front. From that time on there is what you are and what you want people to see and think. It is the failure to learn empathy and how to deal with good and correcting shame that causes the problems. People who refuse to learn from shame end up lacking empathy. They end up projecting their lack of feelings, lack of empathy and the things they do wrong on to other people. You refuse to feel empathy and so when you feel shame for your lack of empathy you project your shame on someone else. This practice continued turns into a personality dysfunction called Narcissistic personality disorder. The Hallmark traits of this disorder are.
Narcissistic people have a Lack of the ability to place one self in someone else’s shoes and treat them accordingly
Narcissistic people have a lack of ability to handle the good shame that comes when you do wrong. Good shame comes to correct bad behavior. A good example of handling good shame is to apologize for inappropriate behavior. The only way to sense inappropriate behavior is to place one self in some else’s shoes. Those who refuse to place them selves in other peoples shoe and refuse good shame. They proclaim that they never do anything wrong and they also never apologize or feel empathy. They blame their lack of empathy on those who are around them usually their parents are the target.
Narcissistic people project on others the things they lack within them selves.
Narcissistic people are empty inside and lack a sense of self. Because they have rejected empathy and have refused the pain of the instruction of good shame they have failed to develop a sense of self worth a sense of self value.
They are not happy with who they are or what the are. It is frustrating when they see others love each other in a giving and in a kind way. In their refusal to love from the position of how others feel they become unhappy loners.
Narcissistic people need only two types of people in their lives. They need those who will praise them and they need those they can push down.
Those who praise the narcissistic are sought out. The narcissistic shows himself friendly and comes to the rescue of people in need in search for the praise he so desperately needs because of his complete lack of personal self-esteem. This can be misinterpreted as caring and love. It leaves the person who was helped in complete confusion because when the praise stops or the rescue becomes to costly emotionally the narcissistic person goes out to seek out and find some one else to give them the praise they so desperately need to deliver them from the total lack of self worth they feel with in them selves.
The second person the narcissistic person needs in their life is the person they can push down. Just as praise helps lifts the narcissistic from his feeling of worthlessness, so having a person to put down lifts the narcissistic up because the narcissistic perceives him self better than the one being pushed down. By pushing down the ones that the narcissistic claims have wronged him he also gains sympathy from those who will listen to his tales of woe. He also gains a sense of power and control from pushing others down.
The narcissistic person doesn’t need anyone else in his life. He will use and discard people as they meet and cease to meet his needs. Leaving a trail of confused broken people behind who thought they where his friends
The narcissistic person can not keep friendships long term because friends to them are only a source to receive their desperately needed sense of self worth and good self esteem.
The narcissistic person will often help a person until the praise runs out then turn on the person and push them down in their search for self-esteem control and importance. The person receiving this treatment can not understand why the narcissistic person turned on them. The one who seemed to love them is now defaming and belittling them. The one who acted like they could do no wrong has now turned on them and they can now do no right. When you are the source of a narcissist’s supply of self-esteem it is a very confusing place to be indeed. The day they cast you away to go on to another source of supply is a very good day. But if the narcissistic person is your child it is hard to understand. When you their parent are the one being cast away it hurts beyond description to describe it to your child only brings them more narcissistic pleasure and feeling of power over you. There is no empathy there is no shame there. You are left empty and alone. You who can feel and give love have a hard time understanding. The only giving a narcissistic gives is because they are going to get something in return. After you stop praising them they will turn and receive narcissistic self-esteem supply by destroying you. They receive self worth by destroying yourself worth. Sick! Beyond words! It is your worst nightmare!
The narcissistic person refuses to look at them selves except to project any wrong they should find within themselves as being something that is there because it is someone else’s fault. These people usually target their mothers.
Over the last couple years we have searched our hearts and the web to find out what we have done that had put our family in this condition.
We realize that in our effort to be the best parents we could be we have caused you a great disservice and damage by protecting you from the very things that would have helped you to become a whole person. Even though we did it with good intentions we now are faced with the damage it has done to you and we are so sorry.
Mom and Dad
This letter was not send because it would have been considered manipulation. We remain voiceless.
Even though we are voiceless in many areas of our life we refuse to continue to be victims any longer. I wish I could change some of the things we did. We had no idea the damage that we were doing. I do not recall any of the books we read teaching us to teach the handling of shame. We thought we were teaching our children to love others, to be kind and thoughtful but some how we failed. Now that we are cast off all I know to do is to go on and make a new life without children or grandchildren. We will be blamed for this also. I heard a story once of a family who lost everything they had. The husband told the wife “ We don’t have the strength to go back over the past and also press forward and do the things that must be done for our future. We must choose to go forward and use our remaining strength to do what we must do to make a new life.
Life is not fair, but we have it far better than our brothers and sisters in Indonesia right now. Even with what we have gone through, I have to say life is good and I am glad I was given the chance to come this way.
I hope this helps someone. Put away your darkness open the blinds, walk in the sun, You are here and we are glad you are. Give your self a hug and tell yourself it was from.
MywifeandI
Life is good! It really is! Get out and smell the roses. By the way sheep sh-t makes beautiful flowers grow! So if all life has handed you is sheep sh-t isn’t it about time you bloomed :-)
With Love Be Healed!
All comments and criticisms accepted! I will handle the shame for my own good and the good of those who have to put up with me!.
By the way another reason I could not send the letter is because I don't believe in triangling one against the other. We have never done that even though they are doing it to us right now.
MywifeandI
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Hello mywifeandI,
Thanks for your heartfelt post and for sharing a letter that took a lot of courage to write. I, too, have quite a few letters to my ex-N that I'll never send. Good for you to not succumb to triangulation. The source of it usually always loses in most situations. I don't know your situation very well but have benefited from your posts and really liked:
Life is not fair, but we have it far better than our brothers and sisters in Indonesia right now. Even with what we have gone through, I have to say life is good and I am glad I was given the chance to come this way.
This puts perspective on where I'm at....Water seeks its only level and everything, I suppose, is relative. But when I think of my situation compared to those who have lost their homes, family members and even their lives my situation really pales in comparison. I've had a particularly blue couple of days (post holiday let-down?) and have not yet made a donation to the disaster relief effort. Today would be a good time to pursue that, so, thanks for bringing this up.
I hope this helps someone. Put away your darkness open the blinds, walk in the sun, You are here and we are glad you are. Give your self a hug and tell yourself it was from: MywifeandI
You've helped me. Thanks {{{{mywifeandI}}}}and hugs back to you, too.
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You want them to feel shame?
You want them to feel remorse?
I don't think it's your daughters who are narcissistic.
Why do you speak for your wife, MywifeandI?
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I don't think it's your daughters who are narcissistic.
So you think myWifeandI is narcissistic? Is that what you're saying?
And if you are saying that, why bother?
What's affected you about this post? Why?
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Hello MywifeandI,
The Letter I couldn’t send, because it would have been misinterpreted.
Are that and triangling the only reasons you didn’t send the letter?
Your daughters have turned against you overnight? Why? Was everything okay before?
also we do not want to counsel you in the first place because if we did and our advice turned out to be wrong we would responsible and have to take the blame
Did you used to counsel them and you’ve since stopped, or have you never counselled them (does counsel in this sense mean something other than advising e.g. a religious type of counselling)?
She said all she saw in it were pictures of a sad unhappy little girl.
Why do you think she said that?
all these new eyes can see is unhappiness and sadness
Who is seeing the sadness here – you or them?
Now I find my self having to go to them as hard copy proof that we were caring and loving parents.
Photographs aren’t really proof of anything. Do you doubt that you were caring and loving? It’s okay to doubt. Seeing photos as proof of anything isn’t necessarily healthy.
(the older sister ) told your mother one day while walking on the beach that she was afraid to have two children. When Mom asked why, she said that she had taken you from us at a early age. When she was asked how she did that? She explained when ever we would get onto you for anything she would take you into the back bed room and tell her how wrong we were in getting onto you.
Why would this make her afraid to have children? Do you agree that the older daughter ‘parented’ the other?
The empathy or love that we somehow failed to instill in you both at a early age was the love the you gain by putting your self in someone else’s shoes.
Empathy is not love. Love is valuing someone simply because they exist, regardless of what you get out of any relationship. “I love you simply because you are.” But we can have empathy for someone we do not love. Empathy is taking a leap of imagination into someone else’s world. You can attempt to empathise with murderers. It doesn’t mean you love them.
We asked (----- ) how she would feel if when (her child ) was grown if (her child ) would treat her like she was treating us. Her answer was “We are not even going to go there.” We were surprised by the total lack of empathy that we found there.
That isn’t necessarily lack of empathy, it’s saying ‘I don’t want to talk about that’. It’s a refusal to talk. Why would she refuse to talk?
The foundation of good self-esteem is build on empathy The placing yourself in another’s shoes and the handling of good shame.
I think this is true.
You refuse to feel empathy and so when you feel shame for your lack of empathy you project your shame on someone else.
Not quite I don’t think. They do not feel empathy, not refuse to. It isn’t a choice. If you know what empathy is, you feel it. If you don’t experience it, you don’t know what it is. I think severe NPD is of the variety where they can intellectualise what empathy might be, but they don’t experience it.
They receive self worth by destroying yourself worth. Sick! Beyond words! It is your worst nightmare!
Whose worst nightmare?
This letter was not send because it would have been considered manipulation. We remain voiceless.
I don’t think you remain voiceless, except to your daughters’ ears. We hear you.
Your daughters, if they are NPD, are sick. I think severe narcissism may result from meeting the child’s every need. The child never learns to empathise. ‘Perfect’ parenting would produce children who think the world is wonderful and that it all exists only to please them, to meet their needs. If children are never discouraged, are always given what they demand, they don’t learn that they could suffer in the way that others suffer. They have no need for empathy unless they see the possibility that life might not always go their way. And if we don’t use and develop the empathy bits in our brains, we lose them. Completely it seems.
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Well MywifeandI, I really can relate to your post. You brought tears to my eyes and you have had the courage to write things that are tough to put into words. Things that are hard to accept.
It sounds to me like you see yourself and your wife as having tried very hard to do a good job parenting your children and that you are feeling guilty for whatever errors you made. That makes me think that you love your children and that you did your best for them and that you feel very hurt for not being appreciated for that?
As hard as this may sound, can you stop and look for the great things you have done right, that may not be acknowledged by anyone but you? Can you count the good you have taught your children and ignor the N stuff for now? Can you try your hardest to embrace the positives you see in your kids, your girls, who you are still parenting and will parent until you die?
I say this to help. I hear your pain and I feel the hurt your words are expressing and I understand how much all of that weighs and seems to be the biggest part of the equation for you both right now. But think of this..... at least your girls are asking for positive interaction. It may be a way of just brushing everything else under the carpet, a way of ignoring whatever harm has been caused, hiding remorse, but....it is also a way of trying to keep communication open with you and working toward some new, good memories. And communication is the key to relating, right?
Is it possible, that your girls are trying to do that? Could they be trying to skip over expressing whatever shame/remorse they might feel and be attempting to have pleasant communication with their parents? Deep down inside, don't they just want your love and acceptance too? For you to praise their accomplishments and what you see that is good in them?
I'm not making excuses for them. They are adults but they are also children. Your children and you love them, right? Good or bad behaviour, the people, your children, came from your loins and are of you and are always going to be your babies, no matter how old they get, right? And you will keep trying to teach them as best you can, right?
So..as hard as it is...keep doing that, ok?
Do your job and keep on parenting, whether they acknowledge it, whether they show appreciation for it, whether they appear to be learning it or not.
Because that issss the best any parent can do.
I, as an adult parent, do hear and feel for the hurt you have expressed and I understand how that has harmed you and I go as far as to say that the best way to heal from that is probably to look for the good in your girls, praise it, take credit for it (even if that credit must be quietly between you and your wife), and encourage the growth of more of it.
Good for you for not sending such a letter.
It will only cause more pain and I doubt you want to give them that.
I get the feeling that there is mis-communication going on and that if you try harder, your relationships with your girls could improve. If that doesn't happen, you will at least be able to say that you tried your very hardest to make that happen.
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We realize that in our effort to be the best parents we could be we have caused you a great disservice and damage by protecting you from the very things that would have helped you to become a whole person. Even though we did it with good intentions we now are faced with the damage it has done to you and we are so sorry.
MywifeandI,
I think if you sent just this paragraph to your daughter(s) you might get a positive response.
Anyway I'm glad you shared the entire letter with the group.
bunny
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Greetings bludie
Thank you for your kind reply.
Writing letters you could never send helps you find out where you really are emotionally. It gives you a chance to stand back and look at your self. As you read what you wrote you can do a little bit of introspection. When you are dealing with people with N traits or full blown NPD they try to put you in a place of voicelessness. When you have no one to talk to it helps to journal or write letters that you can not send.
The ones who are victimized by Ns are in a hard place. The N says and does things to you and if you were to tell someone who is on the outside of the picture what was going on they often look at you then look at the calm N and think you are losing it and that the N is the sane one. The N produces smoke for all the world to see. By smoke I mean they produce their version of how things are. When a outsider hears the Ns story they tend to think where there is smoke there must be fire. What they don't realize is the smoke the N is producing is to make the outsider think there is something wrong with the one the N is targeting. Ns are constantly working to control everything. To keep ahead of a N you would have to devote you life fulltime to it. To catch a N in what they are doing to you and being able to show it to a outsider looking in is like trying to catch a gallon of water being poured out of a bucket with your bare hands. They slip right through your hands everytime and give the outsider that inocent look, like I can’t believe that anyone would say that about me. I have great sympathy for anyone who is being targeted by a NPD or by someone with N traits. On the outside they make you look bad everytime. Sometimes the only thing you can do is tell yourself simply this. God knows.
Bludie be Blessed !
MywifeandI
To the First Guest after Bludie
You asked - You want them to feel shame?
When we intentionaly hurt people we should feel remorse. To be a whole person you need to be able to feel shame when you treat others badly. If we don't feel shame then there is nothing to stop us from hurting others. The world is full of conartist. How can they operate? They have learned to be without shame. It alarms me to see our girls be able to treat us and others badly and have no shame. I don't care about the hurt that is being inflicted on us even though it hurts. I am concerned that they are sick in mind and soul to be able to do this and not even bat a eye.
You asked - You want them to feel remorse?
Yes I wish she could feel shame and remorse! I don't care about us! We should be able to feel remorse when we do wrong. My oldest told us one time she saves the boxes of things she buys so she can know where they came from. When they wear out she said she goes and buys another just like it and then puts the old one in the new box and takes it back to get a refund because it doesn't work.. I was appalled. I did not teach her that. Where is the shame that should have spoke to her heart. She is the one who didn't know if she wanted to have a second child because she was afraid one child would manipulate the other child against her like she did our younger daughter against us as they were growing up. We did not know that until she told us when she was 29.
I don't think it's your daughters who are narcissistic.
To a outsider the words of a N aways makes the target look bad. Remember where there is smoke there must be fire, right? Wrong a N makes smoke for the outsider to see and they can make it any color they want because they have no shame. To even tell what your N is doing to you makes you look bad because it is so unbelieveable.
Why do you speak for your wife, MywifeandI?
I chose our handle because my wife and I are in this together we support each other emotionally. She has said she would like to write a book about what we have gone through. She will be making a post sometime in the future. She was targeted by N parents. She will share this at a later date. My wife edits my posts before I send them. We are one and that is how we survive
To the second Guest who stood up for us thank you!
Hello Portia Thank you for responding.
Hello MywifeandI,
Are that and triangling the only reasons you didn't send the letter?
Your daughters have turned against you overnight? Why? Was everything okay before?
No! When our oldest changed us from being her praise and adoration N supply , to the supply that Ns receive by putting others down and controling and belittling. It happened almost over night. She asked us for advice on different things. When a N asks for advice when you give it to them it creates N injury. She asked my wife to help to figure out what she can do to keep the house cleaner. When you answer a N and give them the advice they asked for they take is as critisim this creates what is called N injury. Because your reply has let them know you think they could do better. When a N asks you for advice what they are really wanting is for you to tell them they are already doing everything perfect and that they don't need your advice. We didn't know this at the time. My wife simply told her when you go through a room and things that are out of place put them up then. Don't wait for a cleaning day. My wife was resented for that. All she did was asnwer what was asked for advice but it was taken as critism.
Did you used to counsel them and you've since stopped, or have you never counselled them (does counsel in this sense mean something other than advising e.g. a religious type of counselling)?
We as a family always talked things out. When ever we did this we always told they to decide for themselves what they think is right for them selves. We did not want to control their decisions because we knew they would have to live with the results of what they chose good or bad. When our younger daughter said they could not come to us for counseling anymore it was because we had been apart of a legalist Christian church for 30 years and we left because we understood Grace. They stayed with the legalistic works oreinted church.
Quote:She said all she saw in it were pictures of a sad unhappy little girl.
Quote: all these new eyes can see is unhappiness and sadness
Who is seeing the sadness here; you or them?
She is having to paint us as bad because she has moved us form being her praise supply to receiving her supply form us by putting us down. Ns rewrite history. To a outsider what I am telling you would sound obsurd, that I must be off my rocker but when Ns love you, ( what they do is not really love but it looks like love.) Lets just say they really take care of their praise supply and it looks like love. She dropped us from praise supply to belittling supply almost over night. History was rewrtten over night. From one who could do no wrong when we were her praise supply to we now can do no right and never have done any thing right in our life. I know if you could ask her is there was anything we ever did right she would say that we never did a thing right. History is rewritten and we are no longer needed for praise now she gets her N supply from us because we are so bad and she has been treated so badly by us that she should receive pity for having such bad parents. This is why she won't let our younger daughter talk to us unless she is present. She is afraid notes will be compared and she will be uncovered. With a N there are three places you can be 1. you are all good or 2. all bad or 3. you are not even in the picture. The best place to be is to not be in the picture.
When your child is a N it is hard. Before she turned on us She E-mailed this to me in reply to a web site I sent her to called "A father's love". The site presentation talked about God's unconditional love of us.
This was a email she send me two years ago on Fathers Day. Now histroy has been rewritten and we are the worst. Notice in the E-mail her concern as to what the lady at the church thought of her. She also talks about her front and how people should precieve her. At the time I had no idea how NPD works. I love my daughter but she is sick and all I have read tells me there is nothing I can do about it. I will continue to search on hoping to find a way to help her. I have not and at this point will no let her know what I have found out about NPD. From what I have read it would only be used against us anyway.
E-Mail sent to me Sent Father's day 2002
"Wow I have been weeping for the last 30 minutes the words to the song are:
Father,
I can't explain this kind of love this kind of grace
I know I still break your heart and yet you run to welcome me
This is my song of praise to you for who you are and all that you do from the moment my life began you have been faithful
I have been so lost, I am so thankful to be able to see things correctly and
experience his love. Love unearned undeserved freely given.
(The Pastor ) said today he does not believe God created us to love him He
believes God created us so he could love us.
A new way of thinking a new way of judging a new way of living a new way of
loving.
I have thought all this time that I have wasted years of working for him when
in fact that guilt was making me waste years of love and peace and joy and
hope. Daddy never ever stop preaching it. It took more than a decade to get
through to me. I know it seems so simple and not worth making a fuss about
but I have a feeling I just started living and my old ways were death. One
of the ladies at church said she was praying for me and she heard God
calling after me, ( My Name over and over ).. she asked if I was OK
and I said yes I am fine and I was really upset that she had even said
something like that wasnt it obviouse I was OK I worshiped, and my clothes
were modest I had the longest hair in the church. How could any thing be
wrong. But my heart knew something was wrong when I laid down at night and
fear overwhelmed me.
Ohhhh God I accept the gift of salvation by faith. The gift of Jesus
sacrifice. Not any thing I deserve or can earn just by faith in you.
I will always remember this Fathers day as the day My Father finally got
through to me that I am precious in his sight not because of any christian
character award or souls won or days spent in travail and fasting but because
he is my Dad and he created me so he could love me and fill my life with
peace and joy and righteousness. My spirit is dancing and twirling with
Jesus in the heavens for the first time there is no shame no fear just love.
I love you Daddy thanks for sharing the gift of grace with me this Fathers
Day"
This is like the pictures. If I didn't have this as a proof then no one would ever know that we were once what seemed like a loving family.
Targets are always looked on with suspicion. Like Porta said pictures don't prove anything. With a N nothing proves anything. Even Scott Peterson's trial didn't prove anything. They are so good at twisting the truth that even those who have been under their gun have a hard time believing you. We have not changed we are still Mom and Dad we have not changed into the garments they are placing on us. There is sickness among us and we don't know what to do about it.
Like I told Bludie Sometimes the only thing that can be said is God Knows.
We will survive
MywifeandI
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Your first post moved me beyond words.
I really hope if you don't mind a few questions.
I totally empathise with your estrangement from your daughters but are there more factors at play here?
I 'googled' Dr Dobson and he seems to hold very stern views on discipline etc. Is this how you parented?
Religion seems to play a HUGE part in all your lives - do you think this might have become enmeshed in your family. I speak as someone raised by an N mum who was a devout Catholic (and still is). My take on this was she used religion to reinforce the guilt that she spoonfed into us on an hourly basis....
Incidentally, Catholicism is a brilliant religion if you are a Narcissist!!! All you need to do on your deathbed is seek 'forgiveness', get anointed and soar up to meet your maker (with no thought of the chaos and destruction you left behind in your four adult children).
I am genuinely interested and am so not 'knocking' you. I am just interested - if you peel away the 'religion' and sought lay counselling as a family, do you think it would help?
Kindest
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I too have a couple of questions:
I took all those pictures of your growing up because we had wonderful times together. All of that is now looked at through different eyes and all these new eyes can see is unhappiness and sadness. I thought I was taking pictures for the sake of keeping our memories. Now I find my self having to go to them as hard copy proof that we were caring and loving parents.
1. What kind of family unit existed when your daughters were at home? You say you were close and did lots of things you thought were fun for the family. But did you do the things your daughters wanted to do for fun, or the things your wife and you wanted to do for fun?
The reason I ask this is because I am estranged from my family - a staunch A/G religious zealots of a family. They say they did fun things for us, but it was all the things they wanted out of life. All church crap. When I asked to do stuff I liked they put it down, telling me all the reasons why it was a bad idea - clue it was their fun not mone - my ideas were always bad, their ideas were always perfect in their eyes, cause church could not be questioned!
2. Did you stuff religion down your daughters throats? The reason I ask this is that they do not want to discuss your religious views with you anymore. Maybe they do not share these views, but you insist they think your way, therefore, they cannot communicate with you. My parents are still of the mindset that if I (at 45) do not attend the church they tell me to attend (from 2000 miles away) I and my whole family is going to hell. If I do not live my life through their rules, I am worthless and not to be loved by them.
I was taught to raise my kids by dodson's books also, but I couldn't. To tell you the truth, I love my kids too much to follow dobson's teachings. He is an NPD himself. He thrives on controlling others through his "teachings". He gains great pleasure in knowing there is a generation of children who have been punished for thoughts as well as actions because of his books. I live 40 miles away from his kingdom in Colorado and have visited it many times. The entire gospel of dobson is to further his wealth! It is so apparent by seeing the buildings and their furnishings. Yes, kids love to visit, but for all of the 6 or more buildings there, kids are only allowed in ONE building! His whole teaching is about families and kids and kids are not good enough to enter any buildings except the one with the playground and eating area inside - in other words the building where parents spend money.
Lastly, let me just say this one thing:
I have never felt loved by my parents. They tell me they loved me, they still love me, but I'm not good enough for them. My mother once told me she could no longer talk to me because I stopped attending church. She said she could not associate with non-church goers - including her own daughter. My parents told me I was going to hell because I cursed and admitted to smoking. Then they told me to go to hell because I made them so angry by telling them I was not afraid of them and their abuse any longer.
I have said all of my life - if my child tells me they are not loved - THERE IS A PROBLEM!!! And if my child tells me they do not feel loved by me, I need to find out why! I am acting in a way that does not express love to my child. My parents used words to say they loved me, but they never followed with any actions. They have not visited me or my family in over 8 years. They visit my sisters multiple times a year. They do not like me, they do not love me. But, to tell themself they are not at fault - they say I moved away therefore, I do not love them anymore. Yes, I moved away with my husband and children to allow my husbad to continue working for his company. I loved the thought of moving. I love where we now live. I will not ever move back east. But my parents say I am the one at fault because I put my family above them. They claim to have all the pictures, all the memories, all the stuff that tells them they loved me, but the truth of the matter is - I never felt loved. I was never loved as a child. I was owned as an object. I was idolized until I screwed up. Then I was admonished and persicuted for embarrassing them. They deserve every bad feeling they have now for treating me the way they did.
I will never apologize to them because they are my parents - they were supposed to parent me - not the other way around - it was not my place to make them happy - but visa versa.
However, their perfect religious ways tells them I'm the bad guy and they will never listen to a word that comes out of my mouth.
You speak of grace lacking in your situation - is it possible that your daughters grew up with no grace from their parents?
I feel for your pain. But I see some similarities to your situation and the way my parents defend themselves today. Raising your children by the churches laws, especially baptist and A/G will drive a wedge between you and your kids faster than anything else in this world. Quoting scipture for your reasons and actions, demanding how your family looks and thinks are all N ways and will not create off-spring who feel love and can love back.
Have you considered sitting down with your daughters alone, and actually listening to their views? Or do you contradict their views with your views?
Just because you are a parent does not mean you are the only right one in the family. Your daughters are adults and there is a reason they do not want to be around you anymore. More than likely, they live differently than you and do not want your judgement on them anymore.
We thought we were teaching our children to love others, to be kind and thoughtful but some how we failed. Now that we are cast off all I know to do is to go on and make a new life without children or grandchildren. We will be blamed for this also. I heard a story once of a family who lost everything they had. The husband told the wife “ We don’t have the strength to go back over the past and also press forward and do the things that must be done for our future. We must choose to go forward and use our remaining strength to do what we must do to make a new life.
Wow! Have I heard that before!
My parents are grandparents to my 3 kids - now 15, 12 and 10. They haven't seen them since they were 8, 5, and 3. They have been invited here, we have offered to pay their airfare, we took the kids to their house the last time they saw each other, and my mother had the nerve to write my son this year and tell him I did not allow them to see him - LIES!!!! to justify her lack of desire to visit.
Instead of giving up, maybe think about starting all over. Maybe loving your daughters for who they really are, showing love and kindness instead of judging them before you even have a chance to talk, maybe offering yourself up to them as an open, caring listening adult instead of as their parent....
These are all the things I wished through the years my parents would try - but they are too pig headed to admit it really was their mental problem.
I on the other hand have turned out to be a level headed, happy, fun loving, life loving mother nad wife who can see all sides when my children and I talk. I'm not always right, I let them express their views, I hug them when they have been punished and tell them how much I love them. My kids are teens now and they are a handful - but I love them in spit of the raging hormones. I love to talk to them and they talk to me because I refuse to judge them...
I RESPECT THEM - something that my parents never, ever did...
Hope some of this makes sense.
Children who turn out to be Narcisists, usually learn the behavior at home.
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Great post Ellie.
I don't doubt that MywifeandI are hurting. Their daughters are finally standing up for themselves after being voiceless their whole lives.
Let them go My wifeandI, they may just come back one day if you allow them to be themselves. I get the feeling that you won't/can't do that.
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The wife of Mywifeand I. So I guess I’m Myhusbandand I
Thank you all for your responses to my husband’s posts. Thank you for your sympathy, advice, criticism, questions and support. I think right now we need the sympathy and support, but it’s also good to be balanced with another reaction and viewpoint.
We have been very hesitant to open up our status with our grown daughters to anyone for fear of being blamed. It seems that everyone is ready to give you the benefit of the doubt if it is your N parent or N x spouse that you are having trouble with, but if it is a child, woe unto you, it is certainly your fault as you have obvously done something terriable to them. You’ve been a terriable parent. No one can believe it in a child that has become an adult. Just remember that every N has parents. Not all these parents created these N’s. Some yes, but not all. I would certainly be careful about making assumptions before knowing all the information. As a school teacher and longstanding and very verbal advocate for abused children, I, and my husband have scrutinized our every motive, action and theory in the raising of our children. We certainly were not perfect parents, didn’t have all the answers, were very young and both came from functional but dysfunctional families. We both had N mothers. I was the target of my mother and my husband’s brother was his mother’s target. My brother-in-law and I were pretty much treated the same. There was a favored child who could do no wrong and we could do no right. We were blamed for everything, punished, then criticized because we had a bad attitude, were rebellious and unforgiving.
Because of my desire not to do this to my children, to encourage them, to give them self esteem, to love them unconditionally and never to live under the cloud of repression and fear that I did, I’m afraid, in looking back, that because I was so accustomed to taking the blame outwardly and inwardly for mine and everyone else’s misbehavior, that I stomped myself down as always guilty and the girls as perfect. Yes, as every mother, I had my moments of loosing it, apologizing and blaming myself and vowing to be a better mother. They were few and far between but they were there.
If there was any blame, shame or guilt to be had, I took it. I believe that is what my husband was referring to in his post. Children should accept responsibility for their wrongs and make them right even if they temporarily feel guilt and shame. To not allow this, we believe, in looking back, that we created people who could do no wrong in their own eyes, were entitled, and grandouse. So, yes, if we are guilty, this is the place where the mistake happened. However, I believe that somewhere along the way the girls themselves made some choices that colored their personalities. We did not teach them to lie for their own gain, manipulate others for sympathy, nor to treat others judgmentally or cruelly. We tried to do quiet the opposite.
In searching our own hearts, studying and listening, we have a thought. It may not be true in all situations, but in these there seems to be a common thread.
We have a friend that my husband works with who has a daughter the same age as ours that has done the same thing to her parents. She did it on the birth of her first child as our daughter did. She has accused her parents of exactly the same thing, has followed the same pattern to a T and has disappeared somewhere with the grandchild where the parents cannot find them just like ours has.
The similarities are, the mother was an abused child and was determined not to do the same thing to her daughter but to give her a storybook childhood like we were. Her goal in life was to be a wonderful mother, as was mine.
She, like as we, raised her child to love and serve God, but not in the same religion that we were. Quiet the opposite, but still firm in rights and wrongs. She didn't, as we didn't, cram religion or God down their throats. Some people may have a problem with teaching rights and wrongs. I believe and practiced teaching this in a loving and balanced way. Maybe we could have given them more freedom to make their own mistakes and suffer the consequences as a lesson instead of always being saved from pain and sorrow. I wish God gave children to parents with the mind and experience of 50 year olds and the bodies and energy of 20 year olds instead of the opposite. Hindsight is certainly better than foresight!
Now, this one. Scott Peterson’s mother had an extremely difficult and dysfunctional childhood. Orphanages, foster homes, had to have some of her children adopted out, the works. She, like my above friend and I was determined to do it right with Scott. To be the perfect mother and to give him a wonderful and happy childhood.
So, we have four children here, who to the best of our ability to figure out, have turned out N’s. Three mothers came from abusive childhoods and were determined not to pass it on to another generation. None of these four children from these abused mothers were abused or mistreated. In our efforts maybe we did not know what normal was. Maybe we didn’t recognize misbehavior for what it was and have the wisdom to know what to do.
I wonder if anyone out there can relate to this thought. Where did your N’s come from? Were their parents abusive or were they abused themselves? I would be curious to find out if generational abuse exposes itself in this way also? If it does, it seems it goes around and around and around. How does it ever stop? I thought I was stopping it. Now, my daughter seems to be my mother in her actions with the same lies, targeting, conniving and manipulation.
I know this is a long post, but please bear with me while I clarify some issues my husband’s post brought up.
The religion could have possibly paid a part as one writer suggested. However, we personally never used religion or God as anything but love. The religion was strict and legalistic and all they know. They are still in it. My husband and I have since seen the light and three years ago left for a more mainstream belief. We taught the girls what we were seeing in the Bible that was different from the religion, and at one time, they understood and were with us 100% in our change. We were sure with the understanding they had that they would eventually come along. But we were too late. In the meantime, they married men in this religion and now highly criticize our change. Our change and their exposing N behavior happened at the same time. So, yes, I do think religion had some part to play in this tragedy but not God. They both denied that this was the problem when asked, but somehow I wonder…..
A brief history:
Until 2 ½ years ago, our family was exceptionally close. We had fun together and it seemed to us a normal and healthy relationship. They were proud of us and our accomplishments as we were them. Everyone was supportive. However, there were times that our oldest daughter had, what I call hot and cold moods. She had always had them. She would be warm then cold emotionally to everyone in her life. We always just patiently waited until she blew warm again. At age 15 the moods got worse. She had a spell in her wedding preparations that almost killed me. She wanted me to fly to where she was attending college and help her with the dress and plans. I did. Upon arriving, she would tell me what she wanted me to do. When I did it she would then proceed to throw it in the garbage. She wanted me to alter her dress, then upon arriving wouldn’t let me touch it. I flew back home a wreck but managed to hold my composure through the wedding. She warmed back up after the wedding and we had no more moods until about 5 years later when…
A job change necessitated my husband and I moving. Our oldest lived in another state. She begged us to move in with her until we found jobs and housing. She was thrilled. No problems besides the fact that I was going through menopause, had fibromylgia and was traumatized from the circumstances surrounding the move. I was a little weepy, depressed and VERY HOT. She was very supportive and helpful. In six weeks we were out and on our feet. She soon became pregnant with her first child. She was 28. Things couldn’t have been better during the PG. She included us and we were all ecstatic. She asked me to homemake her maternity clothes. I made 12 outfits. She didn’t feel like cooking and they asked me to bring over their meals. I did. Toward the end of the PG, her husband became concerned that she and I were too close. She began to tell people that she loved me too much. So, she went, at her husband’s advice, to a psychiatrist or something. I was supportive and understanding and listened to her tell all about her visits.
Then a change began to occur. She began to say and do hurtful things. For instance she told me over the phone that “from now on she was going to choose her mother in law to be her mother and do things with her instead of me because I had dreams and expectations and her MIL did not. She did not want to be bothered with my expectations.” This floored me! I lost my breath and tears gushed. I knew from past experience with her cold spells not to protest or show hurt because it always made her worse. All I could manage was a breathy “ I think I have to go now. I’ll talk to you later. Goodbye.” I then hung up. She later accused me of hanging up on her. She also threw away all the clothes I had made her, and threw away all the food.
She continued to do cruel things like this. Then act as though nothing had occurred. We continued to try to be loving and supportive, taking only what she spasmodically offered. Demanding nothing. I felt like a puppy dog accepting crumbs from the master’s table.
At the birth of the baby, she accused me of being histrionic in the waiting area and worrying more about her than she was worried about the baby who had a breathing problem and was in ICU. Where did she get that? That just didn’t happen. It started to appear as though I was getting accused of how she imagined I would react to things and punished for them before I even did them. She seemed to get pleasure in her accusations and would hear no truth. She let us have very, very little to do with the baby. Her husband kept telling us that this was HIS baby. He instructed who, and how and how long we could hold it. We bought expensive gifts, visited and everything that was allowed. I have never taken care of this baby, only held it in their presence for brief periods of time.
When this baby was 18 months old, she gave birth to another. We had only had contact with her a few times. They had moved to another city 1 hr. away. They did not tell us of the birth of this child. My husband called them to inform them that his mother was critically ill. They happened to be at the hospital and had given birth the day before. They said they were accepting visitors the following weekend and we could visit then. We called to let them know of our visit on the acceptable day and were told they were going to the deer hunting club and wouldn’t be at home. Yea, Sure, she had just given birth 1 week ago and had another 18 mo. old and was going hunting! Several weeks later we tried to visit unannounced so they wouldn’t conveniently be gone and they had stopped answering the phone. When we knocked on the door of their apartment, someone else lived there. We found their car and knocked on doors until we found them. We got to see the baby for the first time for about 45 minutes.
About 1 month later after not being able to reach them, we visited unannounced again. She answered the door with a frightful scowl and said, Don’t you people have a phone.? She wouldn’t let us in her house. Told us to wait 30 minutes outside. After 30 minutes we knocked again. She said we still couldn’t come in because she was feeding the baby. We got to see the baby’s feet then. I asked if we could please come in and watch her feed him. She said No. I asked why. She said because I said so and closed the door. In the meantime she called her husband from work. He went into the house. She came outside 20 minutes later. She insisted we go for a walk to the pool. There she proceeded to tell us we had never loved our children or anyone else, that we were codependent which is why we had pretended to help so many people so we would look good to others. That I was histrionic, bipolar, had and ugly frown on my face all the time and had a mean and hateful voice. This among many, many other things. I proceeded to tell her that we did really love people and our children. She then accused me of talking for 30 minutes and not letting her talk. Her father said we have let you talk. She got up and said she was leaving because we wouldn’t shut up and let her talk. I said Ok Talk but I do love you. As she left she said that she would call us if she wanted to see us again. I had this horrible feeling that I would never see or hear from her again and I had this strong urge for my last words that she would hear in her ears was that I loved her. She then threatened to call the police. So I repeated that I loved her as she ran all the way home to her apt. with me calling louder the further she got that I loved her. We left and attended a church service in that city where I proceeded to cry with the most broken heart imaginable. I hardly remember where I was. Without God helping my husband and I, we couldn’t have survived this. We have heard from a mutual aquaintance that she has moved again and changed her phone number. No one knows where.
This is just a little. She also has lied to our daughter that is 2 years younger than she. She controls her and uses her like a bow and arrow to hurt us with. I don’t know what she has told her. We had no problems with that daughter at all until the oldest started pulling her N. behavior. I have my doubts that this daughter is truly N. She is the weapon and we are the target. That is another whole story and this post is already too long. I’m sorry but to get the picture correct you needed to know the story.
We are managing to survive. I work at a Nutrition Supplement store. There are some supplements that we have taken to take some of the effect of the stress off our bodies so we wouldn’t die of a broken heart. Without them and God constantly helping us and bearing our grief we wouldn’t have made it. The future looks bleak as far as the girls are concerned but I’m still in love with my husband of 31 years and he is with me. So we will build on that and go from here.
We didn't understand any of this behavior at the time of it's occurance. We have since learned of Narcississic Personality Disorder. Our daughter has had classic symptoms right down the line. She has followed a well walked path. If some of you do not understand all this entails there is some very good web sights and books that we ordered and have studied extensively. We are not mad at our daughters and would take them back in a minute. We are sad and hurting and have tried everything imaginable for the past two years to regain our family. We have talked. Let them talk. Begged them to write down every complaint they had about us. Offered to go to counceling with them. We have appoligized for everything
we can think to apoligize for. We have told them we take responsibility for every mistake we made, our problems. We have asked forgiveness and everything we could think of. No, we haven't lost our children because we were too stuborn or proud or because we won't accept them as they are. We do and always have. There is something else going on here.
Maybe Portia hit the nail on the head in her reply to my husband's post.
Quote
I don’t think you remain voiceless, except to your daughters’ ears. We hear you.
Your daughters, if they are NPD, are sick. I think severe narcissism may result from meeting the child’s every need. The child never learns to empathise. ‘Perfect’ parenting would produce children who think the world is wonderful and that it all exists only to please them, to meet their needs. If children are never discouraged, are always given what they demand, they don’t learn that they could suffer in the way that others suffer. They have no need for empathy unless they see the possibility that life might not always go their way. And if we don’t use and develop the empathy bits in our brains, we lose them. Completely it seems.
Thank you Portia for your insight and sharing your knowledge on the subject of N's.
We want to thank everyone for your input.
MyhusbandandI
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MyhusbandandI responding to Ellie the Guest
Ellie,
Thank you very much for your post. You really struck a chord with me as I could swear that was my letter about myself, my parents and my church when I was a child and their response to me now that I’ve left their religion.
I still have contact with my parents although it is really hard to bear their derogatory comments, the shunning and shamming. I’m sorry you have had to go through this also.
I have heard it said that more hurt has occurred in the name of religion than any other thing. I believe that is true but so sad because as I see it God dosen’t condone any of the stuff that was done to us. That was more like the pharasees behavior and God certainly did not approve of them. I still see my mother as the pharasee of all pharasees. I am 50, and my mother is still trying to dictate my life by her disapproval, public prayers, hurtful comments etc.
I’m still a Christian and try to remain close to God but I am so sick and tired of organized religion. I was 4th generation of my former religion. My husband and I have gone to various churches over the last two years trying to find where we fit in. We have loved the people and have enjoyed seeing that God was so much bigger than we had been led to believe. We had been taught that our “group” was the only ones going to heaven. That is SO not right. I’m glad that you and I both had the gumption to go against tradition and family and do what we saw as right even though we are seen as evil by our families and friends. It has been a lonely road. Just be thankful that you did it much sooner than we did and were able to save your children.
In answer to some of your questions about my husband’s post, I will do my very best. I think some of your questions are answered by my post that I wrote before I found yours. I realize that you assumed that my children’s homelife and childhood were like yours because of the pain in your heart and the simularity of the religions. That is So Not True!!! Quite the opposite is the truth because my childhood experience was much like yours, and I, like you, were just as determined not to repeat anything my parents did.
So Yes, we did things that our children wanted to do. In fact they were and still are much more zelous than I am or ever was. I teasingly called them my geminy crickets because I could never seem to be as dogmatic as they were. Everything was black and white with them. I’m afraid that I wasn’t the only religious influence in their lives. They attended a private religious academy owned and operated by our church which was very large and very upscale with lots of cliques and competition. This wasn’t a kitchen school. It was a sure enough school with a campus, gym, the works. Their lives and mine revolved around that school which had ongoing social events, youth groups that went all over the world. My girls were very involved, talented, active, and loved their world. They never had religion cramed down their throats. That’s all they knew because that was their world. But they embraced it fully and still do to this day. We are the ones that “backslid”. We are the ones that are not accepted the way we are. They are sort of like your parents and we are sorta like you. We accept our children’s religion, after all that’s the way we raised them. We do not try to change their views. While we were discovering Grace instead of Works, we were very excited and shared with them. They were excited too. After their marriages is when we were no longer allowed to talk about God to them. Because they didn’t want to go through the shunning and shame that it takes to get out, they don’t want to know or hear. We respected their wishes. We understand that it is almost like getting out of a cult. Not that it is, but it is hard. So, no, even though you and I had a bad experience with religion being crammed down our throats, that was not their problem.
You said if you child tells you they are not loved-THERE IS A PROBLEM!!!!
My children NEVER told us that until the last two months. She is now 31 years old and a very sick individual showing strong tendencies toward Narcississism. My kids always thought they had to best parents and called us the Waltons. They never complained about religion, not being loved, being teated badly or anything. They constantly had their friends over because ours was the place everyone felt accepted and loved and was very verbal about it. They and their friends wanted to learn to sew. My husband bought sewing machines for everyone, our dining room was turned into a sewing room. My kids wanted me to teach them and their friends to sew because I had patience and would make it fun. We did it and they learned and everyone had a blast. I say that to say, No, our home was their castle. What they wanted we all did it. They wanted to sing and were very talented. We did vioce lessons. Wanted to play the piano, we did piano lessons for 15 years. She now has a degree in music. She Wanted. She Got. We were happy to do it. We loved every minute of being parents. They had rabbits. birds, hamsters,dogs, cats, swimming pools, sand boxes, tree swings and made to order doll house by their father. They had our undivided attention and approval and love and ACCEPTANCE. We accepted them then as we do now.
Ellie, I know that there is no way to convince you or the other naysayers that are against us the truth in this situation. I just wish that you could know us now and have known us then. This reaction that we have gotten is one of the main reasons this condition is called voicelessness. Because no one could believe anything so beautiful could turn out so bazzar. Everyone can believe that parents abuse and are ready to crucify them, but no one can believe that children abuse, and if they do, that is surely the parents fault. You made the comment that children who turn out to be Narcisist, usually learn the behavior at home. The operative word is USUALLY. Where did the other percent learn it? Be very careful of what you say, your children are not grown yet. My home was as happy as you make yours sound when my kids were your kids age. My husband and I loved and hugged our children and listened to them every bit as much as you do. We are NOT your parents or my parents. We did not do to our kids what yours did to you. Please don’t judge us without knowing us.
There is a saying, “You’re ????? if you do and you’re ????? if you don’t. That’s the way we feel. No matter how we try it, it dosen’t work because it takes 2 to make something work. If one party wants to find something wrong they surely will. You can’t be good enough, loving enough, giving enough or kind enough. We’ve tried and have almost died in the process.
I hope your situation with your parents improves. I’m sorry you were so hurt. I love you very much and feel your pain more than you can imagine. If we could know each other, I’m sure we would be good friends because we have so much in common. Give your kids a big extra hug from me. Enjoy them and life.
God Bless
MyhusbandandI
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Good morning all. Well this thread is really testing and gut-wrenching too. I have a few responses and a few observations, questions, comments….
MyWifeandI, you said:
To the second Guest who stood up for us thank you!
We all interpret the world differently. I was the second Guest. I didn’t intend to stand up for you, that was not the purpose of my post but you ‘saw’ it that way. My intention was to question the first Guest’s post for their benefit. It was not intended to stand up for you, but you thought it was. Please reflect on this. Please read that post and see how it could have a different meaning to the one you saw. Please think about how you might make assumptions about other peoples’ intentions. Please consider the idea that ‘nothing others do is because of you’.
I’m commenting in order of posts. Ellie you said:
I have said all of my life - if my child tells me they are not loved - THERE IS A PROBLEM!!! And if my child tells me they do not feel loved by me, I need to find out why!
I understand this in an emotional way. I don’t have to think about it. I like it.
I was never loved as a child. I was owned as an object.
I know what this means too. Just sympathising, or is it empathising?
they were supposed to parent me - not the other way around
And that includes taking decisions for me sometimes for my own good. Not just because ‘I say so’ or ‘because it’s my house’ or because something is written in a book. I had to work out what was wrong - because I saw it as wrong and told them so – and they refused to talk about anything being wrong. So that left me with alone with my thoughts.
I love to talk to them and they talk to me because I refuse to judge them... I RESPECT THEM - something that my parents never, ever did...
Respect for them as separate individuals? But acknowledging that as they are children, they don’t always have the same thought-processes as adults and can’t therefore be party to or included in every bit of adult communication? I guess that is respect for the state of childhood. Just mulling here.
I felt your post Ellie, glad you made it. Taking a break, back soon
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MyhusbandandI, glad to see your posts here too. I was hoping yesterday that I’d see you here, and here you are. Good. You said:
Not all these parents created these N’s. Some yes, but not all. I would certainly be careful about making assumptions before knowing all the information.
Who did create the Ns if not the parents? Do you have evidence here? And is the evidence absolutely concrete, fool-proof? No. It can’t be. Nothing is that absolute when it comes to how human beings interpret what’s inside their own and other people’s heads. Maybe it’s better to say we don’t really know, just like we don’t really know what electricity is. It’s ironic but, – look at your first two lines above – very positive about what you’re saying as though you know for sure – and then see what you wrote next. We don’t know all the information and we can’t. But we still make assumptions and that’s what you’re doing too. Not criticising you but pointing out your thought processes. I do the same and want people to tell me when I’m assuming. It makes me think more clearly about what I think I know vs. what other people think they know....
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Children should accept responsibility for their wrongs and make them right even if they temporarily feel guilt and shame. To not allow this, we believe, in looking back, that we created people who could do no wrong in their own eyes, were entitled, and grandouse. So, yes, if we are guilty, this is the place where the mistake happened. However, I believe that somewhere along the way the girls themselves made some choices that colored their personalities.
Okay I’m shocked here. Why? Read what you wrote. “Children should accept responsibility” and “if we are guilty” and “the girls themselves made some choices”. Now you think the kids are responsible but not you, not at all (IF?)? Where is your sense of responsibility here? Where is the idea that in any conflict nobody is ‘right’ and nobody is ‘wrong’? Where is the idea of shared responsibility? Perhaps it was some of your responsibility and some of the choices they made, a mixture of both. “where the mistake happened” the words we use tell some truth. Why haven’t you said “where we made a mistake”? You remove the agent from this and make it impersonal. Why.
I wonder if anyone out there can relate to this thought. Where did your N’s come from? Were their parents abusive or were they abused themselves? I would be curious to find out if generational abuse exposes itself in this way also? If it does, it seems it goes around and around and around. How does it ever stop?
Yes I can relate. I can see abuse going back several generations. I can see that I would have been an abusive parent but I simply didn’t have children. That may be a severe way of stopping the abuse but it’s happened with me, by default. I don’t think I’d be abusive now. I know much more. But that’s the problem, when we’re raising children, some of us don’t have the knowledge that comes through living. Some do, they recognise their abuse, think seriously about it and equip themselves with as much knowledge and learning as possible. I didn’t recognise abuse until a few years ago. How does it stop? Evolution I guess. We can’t keep having the arms trade as the largest trade on the planet for ever. We’ll kill ourselves off. Some people somewhere are going to either change the way we run our societies, or we’ll die off. So change is inevitable, one way or another. And abuse of each other and abuse of the planet are the same ways of thinking. I think.
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Upon arriving, she would tell me what she wanted me to do. When I did it she would then proceed to throw it in the garbage.
Demanding nothing. I felt like a puppy dog accepting crumbs from the master’s table.
Unfortunately I can see that while you think this is a good way to behave, I don’t think it is. You don’t stand up for yourself and you allow your daughter to treat you like a servant. This is unhealthy and not a good role model. I’m serious, this seems like it could be a real problem, please consider it. The role of martyr or victim might be attractive, but it’s very harmful to all concerned. And it is a role based on power. It might not be so strong in you as to be a huge problem, but what you’ve said above indicates it. I’m not into saying you’re sick and that’s that. You may be a bit sick in this area and maybe you should consider it and overcome it? For your thoughts.
So I repeated that I loved her as she ran all the way home to her apt. with me calling louder the further she got that I loved her.
This is very scary to me. This is how an emotionally-enmeshed drama plays out. Very unhealthy. Your daughter is not your emotional lover. "Obviously" you may think, but not that obvious from the description above. Your daughter is your child. It’s good to behave responsibly with our children, by not clinging to them, not demanding from them for our own ends and not manipulating them for our own ends. Although many do. I’m trying to shock you into looking at what you’ve written and see if you can see it differently. What would you have thought if your mother – or father - behaved like this with you? Or your neighbour's family?
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The future looks bleak as far as the girls are concerned but I’m still in love with my husband of 31 years and he is with me.
You seem to have written them off. You don’t seem to love them unconditionally? That means loving them whatever. Regardless of what they do to you. Loving them because they exist. A previous post referred … where was it … about you always being their parents no matter what. You can’t just give up on them. They’re still your children. It was the Guest on page 1 who also said:
Good for you for not sending such a letter. It will only cause more pain and I doubt you want to give them that.
That was my point to your husband. I wanted to hear that the reason you didn’t send the letter is not just because it would have backfired on you, but very importantly, because you care about them and their feelings. Because you can empathise with them. Because you love them and don’t want to hurt them. I wanted to hear this reason. And I didn’t and haven’t.
We have told them we take responsibility for every mistake we made, our problems. We have asked forgiveness and everything we could think of. No, we haven't lost our children because we were too stuborn or proud or because we won't accept them as they are. We do and always have. There is something else going on here.
“because we won't accept them as they are”. But you won’t will you? You won’t accept them as they are, otherwise you wouldn’t be here. You want them to be what you want them to be. They’re not. They’re different to what you want. And they’re perhaps ill, unstable and unhappy. Perhaps they are not NPD? Have you considered that you might be incorrect? We see what we want to see. I am sorry for your situation and I am also sorry for theirs.
Thank you Portia for your insight and sharing your knowledge on the subject of N's.
I wonder if you will thank me now. I think you might be angry or upset with me but that’s okay by me. And my knowledge isn’t really knowledge. Sure I’ve read up on the subject but don’t take what I say as the ‘truth’. We each have our own ways of deciding what the ‘truth’ is and we have to try and respect that we all see things differently, even psychologists and scientists and governments etc.
for both of you:
Please read the thread entitled ‘Narcissism’ for a balanced view of changing NPD behaviour. I say behaviour rather than thinking, but we really don’t know. We don’t have enough evidence and almost nothing is black and white, there are unknowns everywhere. That thread has so much compassion.
Be very careful of what you say, your children are not grown yet.
Not good. This sounds like a warning. Not helpful to Ellie. What was the motivation behind writing this?
I love you very much and feel your pain more than you can imagine.
I hear assumptions about what Ellie can imagine. You don’t know and never will know what Ellie can imagine! (I think.)
Take care both of you. I‘ve written because I’m interested in you and think you’re good-intentioned human beings, which I like. Some of my words may be harsh too because they set off childhood stuff in me. But maybe that will help you? I don’t know, bye for now P
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Just curious, Portia. Are you a parent?
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ummm why?
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i ask because i think it's an important part of knowing what it feels like to have a child spurn you - for wahtever reason
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I’ve not had “a child spurn” me yet. But then I wouldn’t be worried about how I FELT, I’d be worried about how the CHILD FELT. Does that answer your question guest?
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no but thank you for the response
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Last one for now. Question:
Which hurts more – being rejected by your child? Or being rejected by your parent?
Which has the longer-lasting effects?
You know the Beatles song, “She’s leaving home?” The line where the mother cries “How could she does this to me?”
Why didn’t the mother cry “what did I do to hurt her so much that she feels she has to leave?”
I doubt that the perfect parents exist. We’re all human, we’re all fallible, we can only do our best. You too. Does doing our best include using our brains to think and empathise – imagine what another person is experiencing?
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MyhusbandandI and MyWifeandI,
I know my post came across harsh. I didn't want to acuse, but it came out I could not stop the words and feelings. It was as if my parents were writing asking why I didn't love them anymore. But here's my 2 cents after reading the later postings.
My H and I have spent the past 2 years wondering what comes next. We have refused to be enmeshed with church for over 5 years now and have been so busy with kids sports and school and life that we realized we were forgetting ourselves along the way. In doing this form of thinking was when I stumbled upon the realization that my Nparents tried to trap me into their world so many times because I and my siblings were all they had. They lived their lives around us. They only made choices for us they wanted - never considered our wants, but every move in their mind was for their children.
When we grew up and moved away, they were hurt that we had the nerve to pull up roots and explore a life for ourselves. Sure college was ok, but leaving town, being on our own, never needing them anymore was more than they could take. That's when the adult to adult-child abuse started. Because I didn't need them as a parent anymore, they wanted to punish me.
When I married and moved to Alaska, they took it personally because they needed to be needed.
When I had my first child and refused to let them take him for their own, they said I didn't love them enough.
When we moved back to their state, but refused to live in their town, they took it personally. When I had 2 more children and knew how to be a mother and didin't need them anymore in that realm, they took it personally.
When we moved across the country they took it personally.
The trend here is that when you enmesh yourself too much with your kids and depend on them to continue to bring you happiness later in life, when they are just discovering their own lives, they can become angry, feel stalked, feel smothered. And the reaction to a parent can be a mature discussion, or can be a child lashing out because they want to grow up and be an adult themself, but feel their parent pulling them back, begging to be needed.
An adult child does not want their parent to act like a needy child begging them to be loved and needed. They want to see their parent move on as mature adults and let the adult child discover their own lives. When the adult child feels stable they will return, but do not want to be shamed or reminded of their weaknesses as a child. They want to be discovered as another adult, respected for having reached this season in their life and addressed and respected as any other adult in the parents lives.
That does not happen very much. My MIL treats my H and I just like the last paragraph and we love spending time with her. My Nparents treat me husband and I as 2 year olds and we refuse to be around them.
Who do you think we want to spend time with. Who do you think we want around our children?
After my H and I discovered we needed to plan a life for ourselves for when our children do not need us anymore, we stopped at that moment depending on them for our happiness. We started pulling away a little and continue today pulling away, forcing our children to start making their own decisions, forcing them to not be at our heels needing us for entertainment. We started planning vacations without them in the near future.
They will leave us soon and we do not want to look back and say we lived our entire life for our children and they left and do not need us anymore - bad, bad children. We want to say, they left, we're free again, and lets go have some fun!
We do not care what anyone around us thinks about our decisions. We are still responsibile parents, but will not allow our children at this point in their lives to be 100% dependent on us.
We bought Harleys and plan on exploring the nation on 2 wheels over the next few decades. Our kids are jealous of the bikes, saying we love the bikes more than them because we will go on rides without them. Guess what - I'd rather they see we are separate individuals now rather than later in life and have the issues you now face. They are getting over this little jealousy, but there will be others. The thing is, we don't care if they do not approve of our decisions fro our lives. It our life - theirs is their life.
My kids will have kids and they will be my grandchildren. But I am not planning my future living with and around grandchildren. I don't know where my kids will live - near or far away. I do not want to be let down thinking I was to be the nearby granny taking care of the little ones. To tell you the truth, the church people I grew up with think this way. And my mother thinks I am lesser of a mother because I do not want to raise my grandchildren. I want my kids to raise their own kids. My mother stole and adopted my sister's child because she doesn't want us girls to grow up and taking our children is a way to deny we are adults and mothers.
I see ways in my daughter that mimick my mother and sister. I have to leave the room because I want to scream at my daughter to stop being my mother. But, my daughter has to make her choices - whether to act in a way not acceptable to her family and friends, or to be loving and kind. I hope she will be loving and kind. I love my daughter dearly, but if she decides to follow a pattern like my parents, I will put a distance between us, but I will always love her. I will never give up loving her but I also will not beg her to change. But my daughter knows that! That is the difference. She does not want to be ailienated. She makes an effort to swing back to us because we will not support any form of demanding children, nasty, violent attitudes, martyr personality, or any other ways that are harmful to others.
We are teaching our kids, and ourselves to become separate individuals. Sho knows what the outcome will be. But...... we will have our lives still and will not try to follow our children for our happiness.
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More thoughts:
1. My children are not a reflection of me. What they become or do with their lives is not a reflection of what I taught them at home. If they choose a different road, or mimick our lives, it doesn't matter. It just proves they are seperate individuals allowed to think for themselves - AND - accept the consequesnces of their actions and decisions.
2. As my children gorw into young adults, I vow to never use them for my gain or entertainment, nor will allow them to use me for their gain or entertainment.
3. My children are allowed to have different views than my views. I will respect that they have different views. No more would I engage in a discussion about religion or politics with a co-worker with opposing views, than I would engage in a discussion about religion or politics with my child who has an opposing view. This is grounds for conflict that can be avoided if not allowed to be brought up in conversation.
4. I will assist my children in life long decisions only if they seek my assistance, then I will not hold it personally if they choose another path. This again proves they are a seperate individual with the ability to make decisions on their own after considering other options.
5. I will not give up my time to run to a child's side at their demand unless it is an emergency, anymore than I would do this for a friend. I will follow the golden rule, as is already followed in our family. If my child is giving and giving and wants something, we will be giving and giving. But if my child is a taker and demands things from us - tough sheat!
6. I will continue to praise my children through their adults lives just as I praise them now. They never grow too old to be told how wonderful they are. BUT, I will stop my critique of their lives and actions and decisions when they leave home and are no longer dependent on me for financial support. I can think what I want, but will not discuss my thoughts with them if it brings on conflict. If my child chooses to live at home as a young adult, they will assist in the financial support of the family and will never get a free ride. I will help with college tuition as long as they are trying to do something with their life. If they stop trying, I sto giving.
7. As long as my children are under the age of 18, I will continue to be their mother, their full support, their guide, their companion, their helper. BUT I will never attempt to be my child's friend. There is no place in a parents life for befriending their child. There is plenty of room for love, understanding, compassion, companionship, guidance, etc. But never will I let trying to be a friend stand in the way of parenting.
Just a side note on that thought. Many times my daughter has said to me - "you're not my best friend anymore" or "you're not acting like a friend". I shout hallelujah! and say - "I don't want to be your friend. That job is for kids your age. I am your mother. That is my job". My daughter has written me hate notes when she is mad. It hurts. I call it practice for later in life. I know she is lashing out. If I had tried that with my mother, I'd have been beaten. I actually take the note to my daughter and explain that if she indeed hates me, then I'm busy later when she wants a ride to a friends house or to a sports event. I tell her I will spend my money buying myself something rather than buying her new clothes or shoes. I tell her I can be just as bitchy back to her as she is being to me and when she wants to be nice again, I will be nice. AND I stick to it! That way I do not hold grudges and she gets the message and we move on.
My sons do the male thing, they are around and are sweet and loving young men when they want something from me. But when they are just fine, they are not around or thankful or loving. Ya know what - its the gender! It's not personal! That's just the way most males are and I let them be who they are. I praise them for being loving and helpful more than when they ignore me, but I can't nor do I want to change them from who they are.
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I woke up this morning and checked to see if there were any responses to my wife’s post. I read Portia’s response – it speaks for itself.
When my wife awoke I told her that her post had a reply. She asked what was it? I told her that had been assaulted ah peppered and ah roasted.
The guest after Portia asked Portia this.
Guest: Just curious, Portia. Are you a parent?
Portia’s answer was: “ummm why?”
Guest: I ask because I think it's an important part of knowing what it feels like to have a child spurn you - for whatever reason
Portia: I’ve not had “a child spurn” me yet. But then I wouldn’t be worried about how I FELT, I’d be worried about how the CHILD FELT. Does that answer your question guest?
Guest: no, but thank you for the response
Portia would not answer the question because she knew why it was being asked.
When Portia was roasting my wife and her intentions, she answered the question for us.
Quoting Portia's response: Yes I can relate. I can see abuse going back several generations. I can see that I would have been an abusive parent but I simply didn’t have children. That may be a severe way of stopping the abuse but it’s happened with me, by default. I don’t think I’d be abusive now. I know much more. But that’s the problem, when we’re raising children, some of us don’t have the knowledge that comes through living.
Now I think I know how a pregnant woman must feel when a male gynecologist tells her how she is or isn’t supposed to feel. He has read about it but he has never been there to actually know what she is feeling. He can only suppose.
It is kind of like the arm chair quarter back yelling at the players on the TV that they should have used this play or that play when he has never even stepped onto the playing field.
The comments from this post have let us know that we must remain silent because the parent is always wrong. For this knowledge we are grateful.
To the mothers out there who are on the playing field of life and have had their teenagers triangling against them, even triangling parent against parent. We know that you know that triangulation is not your fault. It is a means for your children to get their own way and to move events to their liking.
I hope others do not become afraid to post here because of hard critiques from those who have never been on the playing field.
After being emotionally slapped for three years, caring how they felt and trying our best to fix it only to have everything we did turned into Narcissistic supply against us, It is sort of hard to continue to care and worry 24-7 about how they are feeling. After the manipulation we have been through the last three years, I guess I am a bit tired of trying to figure out what they are thinking next. Sorry if it seems that we are unfeeling. We are worn out from the pain of feeling in this vicious circle. We have literally gone through hell, lost a couple of years of our lives, cried until we were sick. We have just begun to heal to the point that we are not having anxiety attacks on a regular basis. Many, many nights we have been sleepless, walking the floor with concern over how our children were feeling and why. And to come on this post and be attacked by people who like to play the devil’s advocate is the end. We have never stop being concerned with our children. We will never stop loving them. But we are exhausted.
I think I am about ready to check out.
Thanks for all the help.
This is not a pity party, it is just that My wife and I have some living left to do and we are going to do it.
Ellie we just saw your beautiful reply and again you are exactly speaking our feelings. This is where we are now also. Not because we have stopped loving and caring but because we must go on and make a life of our own. We also have our own interests and hobbies. Our children left the nest more than 10 years ago. In that time we had an unemeshed relationship with them. They have lived at least 400 miles from us during all that time. It is only the last 3 years that this behavior has presented itself. We, like you and your husband are planning to see a bit of this country, but in a Buick, not a Harley. We wish you and yours well.
Best of Wishes to each and all
MywifeandI with MyhusbandandI
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Hi Mr and Mrs!!
I think you've been treated a bit harshly. I have to say it is with the best motivation from people (like myself) whose lives have been blighted by Narcissism.
I don't understand - like you - how sympathy can be given to N lovers and N children but not to N parents. After all, every N HAS a parent(s).
Although I have a degree in Psychology, what I believe isn't necessarily backed up by peer review journals etc. I happen to think that those of us who surviveNarcissism have MORE empathy, kindness, love and decency than the population at large. I don't understand this?
I would also like to add that my Mother was dreadfully spoiled as a child (and only girl). I think this has a huge amount to do with Narcissism i.e. these 'children' always get what they want, always have their demands met so have no reason to develop emotions such as empathy or compassion. When they grow up and face the real world and their complex needs aren't met totally, their Narcissism comes to the fore.
I reiterate what I said earlier about believing religion played a malignant part in this saga. I'm NOT anti-religion, I am against people usingreligion to further their own ends. This happened me and my mother's twisted view of Catholicism was a weapon she used to dole even more guilt into me.
There is lots of advice on this board how to completely disengage from N people. I think both of you would do well to heed it. If your daughters are as Narcissistic as they seem - mentally cut the ties, put yourselves beyond their reach and enjoy the rest of your lives together.
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Just remembering what I wrote and wondering if I went too far and I remembered I wrote this:
I think you might be angry or upset with me but that’s okay by me.
Whoa. Think I better say, what I meant is: IF you are angry or upset with me and you want to express those feelings back to me – vent at me if you like – that will be okay by me. I won’t ‘retaliate’ or attack you (but I reserve the right to defend my self okay?). But I will listen and I’ll stick around to listen and comment if you want. Wanted to clarify that. Portia
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Ah. Well, I did say please vent at me. But you vented about me. You talked about me instead of to me. Want to talk to me? Portia
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I think you've been treated a bit harshly. I have to say it is with the best motivation from people (like myself) whose lives have been blighted by Narcissism.
I don't understand - like you - how sympathy can be given to N lovers and N children but not to N parents. After all, every N HAS a parent(s).
Very true, Serena. Thanks for the stabilizing perspective.
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I just want to say congratulations to Ellie for her brave, enlightening and so inspiring post... 'hope it will inspire others as well... Thank you Ellie!
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Thank you Grateful Guest for reading my post. I wasn't trying to be inspiring - just really telling my life.
In regards to the authors of the thread - MyWifeandI and MyHusbandandI, I really think Portia has a point in asking you to talk TO her.
As a child of people who refused to listen, I really appreciate this board. I really appreciate folks who take the time to read what I write - I'm being listened to and I feel like what I have said got heard by someone - even if I do not like what is said back - I got heard.
Portia is responding and you heard her, but you talked about her to the rest of us instead of to her. Do you see why we use this board? It's called Voicelessness and we are here because we aren't being heard by those who hurt us. When we talk, we ask to be responded to, not about.
Your daughters are being discussed here on this board, but I bet they would love a chance to positively (not negatively) discuss things with you. That is what they asked of you, but instead you say you're leaving it all behind.
If you need to practice "Listening" to someone, use this board. Talk to us. I feel I was responded to, and about, both, but I got positive responses either way.
Portia and others on this board have been responded about in negative ways. Keep in mind, we do not know each other. We are all in a sense "Using" each other to sound off. But if we are here to talk about the ones who hurt us and how they refuse to hear us, it's very hard to have compassion when we see someone do exactly what they are complaining about to someone else.
I plead with you, if you took the time to write everything, pouring your heart out as you both did, and appear to want to resolve some issues with your daughters, take some time to practice hearing each other. Then approach your daughters. I don't know them. I can guess their personalities by your description, but I'm also someone's daughter. And as much as I detest my parents today, if they came to me with an earnest change of heart and tried to show me love, I would take them back in with open arms.
I realize your situation appears to be the opposite - but as children, we still wait on our parents for approval. You are still the head of the family and it will take an action from your part to start a positive change in your family.
The part I see in your posts that remind me of my hurting past is that you appear to be judging your daughters. It's not our place to judge. You have decided already that since you were hurt for the past 3 years, you will be hurt forever. You really don't know that. Your daughters could be going through a season in their lives that makes them be the way they are - but doesn't mean they will be this way in 5 years. If you sign them out of your life now, you are determining your fate for your family.
My parents pushed me out of their lives. They said they didn't want anything to do with me because I will not follow their rules today. There's nothing I can do to change their minds or hearts. I am who I am and will forever be me. They don't like me.
You obviously loved your daughters dearly for many years. Can you just cut out your heart and take away the love now because of 3 mere years. In retrospect - you will live for 30-40 more years. What's 3 years compared to a lifetime? I beg you to take some time, find some happiness between the two of you, find some things you love about yourselves individually, have a happy life for a while without your daughters and their families. Then come back and revisit your feelings. If they are still strong against a relationship with your daughters, then keep your distance.
Something I have learned in my short 45 years of life - "Life's too short to waste even a minute". Do with it what makes you happy.
I wish you both the best. You seem like very nice and loving people. I'm sure your daughters have lots of love. They are still growing up. I didn't have my first child until I was 30. I didn't grow up til I was 30. I didn't want to. Now I want to be a kid again - and I'm going for it!
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One more thing to the authors:
My parents story of our lives and my story are complete opposites. You have read my story. I reread my story and I ask everyday, "What's so wrong with me that my parents hate me?". I'll never know the answer to that question.
But if you sat down with my parents today, they would probably say your stories are exactly alike. They see the past through different eyes than I do, but as their child, I lived through their abuse to me. I know what I experienced. I know I never felt love. They only know the fantasy they have created to support their controlling feelings.
It took me til the ripe age of 40 to buckle down and have nerve to question my parents and disagree with them and stand my ground. They think some unknown freek of nature changed me into some ungrateful hidious human being that was no longer their daughter. It just took that long for me to have the guts to speak out to them. I had always felt the way I expressed my feelings to them at that time, but never had the guts to say it.
I am not in any way saying you are like them. I don't think anyone in this world can be like them.
But maybe your reality and your daughters realities are quite different. Maybe they didn't change overnight, but were holding in feelings that for the one who seems to be the stronger of the 2, it took having a child and thinking through her childhood to realize things were not quite right with her and you. And then because of the strong relationship with her sister, she convinced her of the same feelings, or brought up old feelings with her also.
Wouldn't it be sad if I was writing here to you both today discussing my life and turned out to be one of your daughters? Of course you know that isn't true, but the wife said she and I have very similar pasts...