Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Anonymous on January 13, 2005, 02:04:21 PM
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Thank you for your kind acknowledgements of my previous post.
Yes, while it is true that many NPDers never seek help or find independent need for change, the truth is YOU JUST DON"T KNOW UNTIL IT HAPPENS (forgive my CAPS, I don't know how to enable italics here). In my husband's case, there was a long period when I believed that change was not possible, that he would never come to understand how his behavior (the result of his inner terror) was harmful and unjustifiable, nor ever face himself and take responsibility for his actions and his own self-perceptions.
However, he ultimately did do all those things. While he is far from perfect (we see intense but brief spikes when he is feeling feeaful or deep in self-loathing), he has grappled admirably with his issues and continues to do so, even though joint therapy has ended and he is now only receiving therapy individually.
The point, I guess, is that I see so many threads and posts here (and in other sites devoted strictly to "Narcissistic Abuse") that use black and white terms like "never" and "evil" to describe the (possible - how many of these "Ns" are actually diagnosed?) NPDers in question, and I find that disheartening.
As the child of a clearly Narcissistic mother (and grandfather (world class narcissist), though he and I got on well - driving up the envy factor for Mom), I still suffer today from the "Little Voice" that Dr. Grossman describes. That condition existed within me before I ever met my husband. The "Little Voice" is no less damaging to self and others, just perhaps more subtle. And the truth be told, probably just as few "little Voices" seek the help they need or seek to change, but instead continue to alternately mourn and silently seethe, quietly self-sabotaging and avoiding real intimacy in favor of acceptance, mystifying those around them who can see no earthly reason for it. This is spookily similar to the way others react to the Narcissist: "Why in the world would anyone do such a thing(s)?".
I feel that to condemn others who suffer similarly but behave differently to "never" and "evil" stauts is to essentially do the same to myself - thus condemning ME to a lifetime of diminished voice, and by extension, diminished self - which is exactly what drives the narcissist. Underneath it all, we're not so different.
I had come to this board after reading the articles/essays in hopes of finding others who were addressing their own issues of voice, and although I see some of that (more with those whose parents are the focus), I see more posts seeking support for contemporary (immedate or recent, spouse or sig-other related) issues than regard self-redirection and self-change.
While I certainly understand the immediate relief brought by demonizing the "perp", I do also think that this can cloud the deeper issues for many, diminishing the likelihood of lasting self-acknowledgement and self-change by prolonging rage and dissillusionment.
I do not intend to cast asperstions, but I have visited several "Narcissistic Abuse" forums in the past (I guess due to the nature of Dr. Grossman's essays I thought this site would be focused differently, so my comments should be read with an understanding of my disappointment), and they all seem to be rhetorical and formulaic: "My N-EX is so evil and mean!". "He'/she is not even human!", "I'm so glad s/he got what was coming to him HAHAHAHA", "That SOB did it AGAIN", "I hope that B**** screws him over like he did me", etc., etc., etc. And while of a certain immediate benefit, I believe that kind of vitriol only serves to foster more rage, rather than helping to process and come to terms with it.
Again, it is just that kind of rage that fuels the narcissist, who continues to focus on the wrongdoings, real or imagined or some combination of both, of others - rather than on addressing the demons within, primary of which is lack of real voice.
The hardest part in all of my experience, up to now (having some way to go with self-repair), has been removing the focus from what others have done to me (legitimate complaints, to be sure) and shifting it to What I Can Do For Myself. Rage stinks, and it still does exist for me, but it has become clear that I will not be able to outmanuever it by either swallowing/burying it or directing it elsewhere. I feel my job is to accept what has happened, accept that I may or may not come to understand the motivation of the "perps" (which will not take away the confusion - "But WHY?" is and will always be the perrenial question), and charge myself with rebuilding my self-concept.
I think if one is strong in self, the need to understand WHY diminishes, and the search for solutions for self becomes more fruitful. I think of the "Why" question stage kind of like the little kid who keeps asking "Why" after every response, in hope that next time the answer will be different and easier to understand. Those of us who are parents (or were once children!), consistent ones, anyway, know that answer does not usually change, and the child ultimately has to go along for the ride even if they don't understand. We also know, from our own experience, that answers to many questions will be either illuminated or rendered unimportant as our experiece grows.
Again, these posts should be read with an understanding of my frustration at being unable to find message boards or communities that focus on the deeper meanings and self-applications of ideas like Dr. Grossman's rather than on the immediate slights and insults of those who betray us. To be sure, those copmplaints have a functional place in reaching understanding, but it is difficult to find places where those complaints are secondary to the larger issue of self-repair.
Thank you for reading.
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Was there a time, Guest, when you experienced
the immediate relief brought by demonizing the "perp"
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Have you ever found yourself thinking in black and white?
We are all at different stages of growth, right?
Although I understand that it is frustrating for you to see all the spewing and bashing about, and also how disheartening it is for you to have moved to the point where you no longer think of NDPer's as "evil" and "never" able to change, yet you see so many who believe that, ya gotta have patience.
Each person is different.
Each experience is different.
Each tolerance level and response is different.
Each set of damages is different.
All require individual care and will take individual time to move to different stages.
All of our goals are similar though aren't they? NO matter how far along we are or our differences? Aren't we all just trying to heal and grow?
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I can see both points here and feel that I am stuck in the middle on this issue right now. I am working on forgiving my wife's behavior and believe that she exhibits a lot of N traits. My understanding of where I'm at at the moment is that it is not so important to be beyond blaming and desiring revenge toward her, it is more that I do the work that I need to do to in order to grow to the point where those feelings or views are no longer necessary or even useful for me.
From my own experience, I also wonder whether there is more unresolved anger, frustration, etc. in people who have suffered from someone who is N. Since my experiences have been completely denied by my wife, I have had no way to express it to her, and she has had no way to express remorse or to work to heal the hurts. I have felt that I had all this anger and frustration which didn't "belong" anywhere. I know that I have have vented to relieve the pressure, no matter how temporary, just so I didn't have to hold onto all of it by myself when I couldn't see anyway to ever truly resolve things between us. Thankfully, I am working toward forgiving my wife and releasing all that load. I think this is difficult enough under "normal" circumstances with just our own issues. When you throw in someone who is unable to accept any responsiblilty for thier behavior, and blames you instead, it seems reasonable that the lack of validation and turning around would just lead to more feelings and more confusion.
longtire
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My main goal right now is to navigate through my own issues of voicelessness.
Again, my disappointment has to do with the fact that the Message Board does not have Narcisissim in the title, and the articles and essays, while mentioning narcissism both as a cause and an effect of voicelessness, do not dwell on the concept. (Titles raised as a good point by another poster in Narcissism I). In this respect I do feel a little misled, but that is no one's fault here. I'm griping because I'm disappointed, and because of the following:
I have a deep appreciation for the concepts set forth in the articles and essays - and have developed a few ideas of my own in response to them. For example, I believe that "authentic voice" is implicit in an "I" statement, as opposed to a "we" statement or a "they/He/She" statement.
For example - "I am angry", "I am hurt", "I do not accept X.", as opposed to "He makes me mad", "She hurt me", "Why are they so mean?".
I'm sure to some it sounds like a petty thing, but I do believe that language is functional in more respects than just communicating ideas. I believe it also shapes attitudes - about ourselves and others. In this way, language is very powerful - just simply in they way we relate ideas to ourselves and others and the precise words we choose, we tip the interpersonal power balance.
"I feel abandoned" ", I am hurt" gives power, opportunity, hope - and responsibility - to the speaker. "He abandoned me", "She hurt me" give responsibility and power to the subject.
I'm not saying that those who hurt us are not guiilty of their actions - they are - but they technically are not responsible, in the sense that they can choose to take responsibility and make it up to us or not, but ultimately it is optional for them. So the only real, reliable way to deal with hurt and anger and fear etc. is to take on the power of ownership and responsibility for ourselves.
Just sayin' - and also tipping my hat to "easier said than done". If I though it were easy I wouldn't be looking for a good place to explore these ideas and feelings, I'd have already mastered it all...and it is clear to me that I haven't.
So - I'm in pursuit of power over my own "voicelessness", irrespective of whether it came from a narcissistic parent or partner or whether I just fall in the 50% nature category. Probably some of both. I've encountered many people who have had run-ins with narcissistic and self-centered types who have not suffered to quite the same degree as I have, being somehow able to emerge less damaged - which is worth looking at.
In the meantime, I probably will keep looking for another place to post. I do understand where people here and on other narcissism-devoted boards are coming from, I just did feel that it was important to make a few of these points - not the least of which is that not every situation is hopeless and inherent evil is a theocratic notion, not a human, psychological notion.
In addition, I wanted to direct some focus toward the essays - which I believe to be very important - more so than debating wether or not a "perp" is an NPDer, whether they know it or, or whether one should get revenge.
I don't lack appreciation or empathy for what is going on for some of the posters - been there and it still hurts - and I don't plan to continue arguing my points, either (though I will respiond to questions, as these points, especially those that are "athentic voice" oriented, are important to me).
I don't think everyone has to agree with me or support my contentions, I just want to share my ideas, experiences and opinions. I think the evidence for that is in the fact that I did not derail anyone else's post to make these points or take any one particular post to task (not that I think anyone is doing that to me, especially - I realize my views could be construed as somewhat contoversial here and questions - even hard ones - are appropriate). I believe that the experiences and feelings of the posters here are perfectly valid - I am simply presenting alternative viewpoints that I hope will be helpful to at least a few.
longtire: I still feel stuck in a wierd middle place sometimes. My ideas and philosophies have evolved quite a bit ahead of my mastery. Part of the quest for that mastery includes cultivating the "I voice". I think finding a place for anger etc. to belong has to do with ownership - and if my "I voice" is weak or non-exisitent, I can't own it. I'll remain dependent upon the voice of the "other" to tell me what to do with it, and since other technically can't be responsible for my healing and learning, that just won't work.
My huasband still does not take responsibility for all his behaviors, and perhaps I do not always do so either, especially when I'm feeling victimized. I do find it helpful (though of course not a perfect solution) to be diligent about hearing HIM, also, without blame or jugement or tit-for-tat, even if he is not operating in the "I voice" (You do this, You do that). I try to overlook hyberbole and blame in favor of hearing th subtext, at least at the time, and just respond to his feelings at the moment. At the very least, I can cite it as an example of what I need from him at another time.
Basically, I try to overlook use of "always", never" and similar, and also don't demand that his facts be utterly straight and accurate before listening and responding to how he feels. sometimes I go back later and say "Do you really think I always/never?" or "Do you really feel I was doing something to hurt you?". Often, if sufficient time has passed and the mood has changed, the answer will be "No - I was just upset at the time. I'm sorry I was so over-the-top"". I can then point out that I need this level of listening from him. I also do not resist delivering a simple "I'm Sorry" when I know I haven't been exactly awesome (I am human, too), whether or not he's wonderful about delivering his criticism - although I will reinforce that I want gentleness in criticism later.
I alos try to avoid tit-for-tat because I then say truthfully that I have not responded to his accusations with a counter-accusation (Yeah? Well, You x, x, x"). This is called deflection and it's something that voiceless/narcissitic people are very good at but serves no useful purpose in problem solving. I believe he does much more of this than me, but just the fact that I consciously don't respond in kind (usually, I'm not perfect either) gives me logical leverage when trying to help him understand my needs and complaints.
In addition, I do not discuss whether or not the behavior is question is narcisisstic in nature, I just tackle tham as discrete entities, one at a time. We've had those NPD conversations in the past, and I'm not sure whether it helped or not to discuss them in that context. The joint therapist does not dispute nor confirm his NPD status, and according to him, his therapist says "personality disorder" but does not specify. I think she does not feel it necessarily helpful to pigeonhole, and may be, like me, a subscriber to the personality continuum thoery - meaning the degree to which one is experiencing dysfunction and crisis is what determines whether they are just a narcisisstic personality type (no harm no foul), a borderline, an NPDer, an anti-social, or a psychotic - which can change over time, moving up and down the scale.
Hope that helps.
PS: Please pardon all my typos...too lazy to fix. I really am more literate than that (and terribly insecure, ain't I?)
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Anonymous,
You're right - narcissism isn't in the title of this group. I totally zoned out on that one. But after reading posts for a short time, I think it becomes clear that this group is focused on narcissism.
Using I-statements is not petty. Taking personal responsibility for one's own contributions to problems is important. Some people aren't at that space right now due to earlier trauma. And some people know that they tend to take on 100% of the responsibility so they swing to the opposite end of the pendulum. They haven't practiced ambiguity, sharing responsibility, etc., because there was no role-modeling for that.
My take on it is that a lot of language you're hearing about adult partners is really about the person's early relationships. So you're hearing the voice of a hurt child (imo). However since the person is chronologically adult, they may want to learn to switch from a hurt child to an adult when necessary; i.e., developing an awareness of when the child is in charge and encouraging their adult parts to be in charge.
It sounds like you and your H have some agreements on how to negotiate with each other, and you're in therapy together. Many people don't have a two-way street to work with. That makes it very difficult. It takes a certain level of groundedness, emotional detachment, and the ability to contain powerful affects, to do what you're doing. You may not realize how sophisticated you and your H are.
I think there are some regular posters here who post in the language you are hoping to hear.
Thanks for your very articulate and helpful post.
bunny
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Thanks Bunny! I feel better now that the "Title" issue is resolved.
I want respond to address the "I statement" a little more - to me, it's not about taking responsibility for what has happened (although sometimes we need to take at least some of the fall, sometimes not) or what someone has done to us - clearly, if someone has harmed us, deliberately or not, usually they have chosen their course of action with free will. To suggest otherwise, for the most part, is like saying that "Because she wore a short skirt, he had no choice but to rape her". That is clearly wrong-headed. (the E-mail snooping posts are analogous - I have his e-mail pw, thus I am compelled...).
What I really am trying to say is that there is a subtle but distinct and important difference between saying "He raped me" and "I was raped". the former focuses on the HE in question. The latter focuses on the I.
I think taking the HE out of the equation, and making it about the I and the event, can serve to help make sense of the event in the context of the future -healing, prevention, awareness - all that - rather than dwelling on the HE - which makes the rape HIS event, and not the victim/I's.
I guess I think, in a way, it is an even better defensive posture to change the language for yourself, because whatever you lerarn from your experience is then more likely to be generalized across new situations and encounters, regardless of ANY HE who may be present.
I'm not sure if I'm being utterly clear. Again, the distinction is subtle, but important. If you look at it from the perspective of someone reacting to childhood abuse, say, if the focus stays on the parent - then it could be much harder to draw the parallels with new or current situations and people, actually making it harder rather than easier to really learn and avoid future repeats of history.
Maybe this is in part because dwelling on the parent/perp's wrongdoing necessarily means dwelling on our loss of innocence and a sub-conscious pursuit of an idealized parent/partner who won't let us down. so in a way, I guess I think HE statements set us up to replicate situations over and over because we are seeking the solution without, hoping we'll get it right this time, so they'll love us more/better this time, or they won't hurt us this time. Jung calls this the Orphan state - I gues his equivalent to the concept of voicelessness.
Does that make sense?
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Oh- and just in case people think I've got it all covered with the hubby, think again - some days he just righteously SUCKS and I wouldn't mind hurling an ice pick in the general direction of his nether regions. I got let down in a big way this weekend, after some big promises friday that involved his proactivity, as a matter of fact.
However, this doesn't happen all the time and every day, and it is my own fault that I let him blow me off without demanding he keep his agreement until late sunday/monday morning. Instead I just sat around thinking, "You're blowing me off, you8 A**hole", instead of piping up with MY VOICE like a big girl.
Kind of expecting him not to let me down this time, even though I know he will if he can because it is stressful for him and involves putting himself at risk for failure, but also not going to bat for myself when I saw it starting to happen.
I kind of suck, too, sometimes, in my own special way.
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Anonymous,
I understood what you meant by "I" statements. But thanks for giving some really good examples. You wrote another post with many I statements, in which you took responsibility for your own feelings and for your part in the interactions with your husband. Some people aren't ready for that level of relating. Believe it or not, they can feel that "I" statements are another manipulation and humiliation. There are abusers (parents, especially) who've learned about I-statements and misuse them malevolently: "I feel that you are selfish. I feel that you are screwing up my life," etc. This confuses traumatized people and it makes I-statements threatening. Even if they intellectually understand them, emotionally it's another story.
bunny
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One thing that I have observed is that Anonymous' situation is the exception rather than the norm. For many of us, there may have been no other choice but to end the relationship/marriage. (Or the Ns left the relationship and quickly moved onto another person). You are fortunate, Anonymous, to have a partner who is willing to look at his issues and work on the marriage together. So when you feel disappointment about not reading posts you can relate to on this forum, you may want to remind yourself of this.
Best,
bludie
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To the original author of the thread:
I agree with you very much that there are exceptions with N's, because there are different types of N's, for one. For instance, I don't think psychopathic/malignant N's get better. Someone with N traits or a lesser patho. type of N might improve quite a bit, with help. There are usually either explainable or unexplainable exceptions for most things.
By the way, I think the person that said the short form was used for no other reason than to shorten typing was right in my book! :) I can't imagine typing out the whole word all the time. This is the only reason I use the abrev. I just want to be clear that no disrespect is intended. In fact, I am one here that is not angry with their xN, and even has kind feelings toward them.
I much admire your wanting to share your experience and opinion where as you say, it seems in the minority.
Though I do believe it is possible for some N's to improve a lot, it just seems like it is more uncommon than common, and I think that is maybe why you get most of the kinds of "never" etc (words you mentioned you weren't comfortable with) depictions & advice on N message boards. If it were more common I'm guessing we'd hear a lot more success stories like your own. Some have lived for lifetimes with N's(where it is a parent, child, or sibling) never to see any hint of change. Perhaps in some cases where healing could be likely at all, it is due to a lack of updated info. known regarding what would reach an N person & help them change perceptions & heal. Maybe in the future there will be new strategies known, and we would be lucky enough to experience many more stories like yours.
It is also described in its professional diagnostic context, specifically as a very rigid(resistant to change) personality disorder, unfortunately.
But I must say that I thought about saying what you did a few times (in context with a posting at those times) but never did. This is because I was always very concerned about giving those who really should have been leaving abusive N relationships, false hope. One of the biggest things to overcome when trying to leave an N romantic relationship for good is the magical thinking that the N can change... "if only"... Or that "this time will be different if I try again" Any sliver of hope of change & the one emotionally stuck in the N relationship is in danger of returning physically. Since more don't seem to change than do, I thought it best not to open that can of worms. This was only for me & related to my personal preferences & reasons but I personally welcome that you did write about it & again, admire you for doing so.
Anyway, I'm really glad it is working out as it is between you & your husband. You both have been truly blessed!!
BT
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For the record, I've been through some horrifying trauma - both with husband and mother (this seems to be unclear, based on some of the repsonses).
With my husband, I have been abruptly left and replaced. I've been cut off from my entire social structure and replaced within that, too. I've experienced threats, lies, rumours, stalking behavior, crazy-making...all of it (though I should point out that for some of it, he had help in the form of the "other"). I thought I might not make it through all that; cried every single day for over a year, lost all kinds of weight, did not sleep more than 5 hours a night, needed anti-anxiety meds to get through the day even marginally.
But I knew that this was not his "norm" (even though his norm still shows many clear characteristics of narcissism). I knew that he was having a severe crisis, and since I've had my own crises before, I had to cut him some slack even as I cut him off, which I did for a time, as much as I could with shared custody of our daughter. I also knew his childhood was hallmarked by abandonment and severe neglect - he once had only onions to eat for an entire week, and lived in a cabin in Maine - winters with no electricity, no running water, and no school. And no father, with a mother who was too depressed to even apply for welfare. Knowing all this, I never was able to demonize him, even though for a long time I stayed as far away as possible, directing him elsewhere for help and support (a critical maneuver, in my book).
With my mother, I have experienced abuse of the I voice as described, in addition to physical attacks as a child (hair pulling, scratching - and once a knife to my throat, over my preferences re:cooked vs. raw cabbage). For her, to disagree was a sign of pathology in me. "You are sick, you are selfish", "You always hurt your mother".
But I (now) know that her father was also Narcissistic and abusive on all levels toward her and especially her brothers, as was his mother - who once stood my child-mother before a mirror and said "You will never be as beautiful as me." Who knows what happened to her!
These conditions excuse nothing, but they do go a long way to EXPLAIN. While explanations are not always clear or as straightforward as these examples, largely they are there somewhere, if obscured by denial and fear.
My experiences have shaped me and my behavior, too, leaving me, like them, with a Voice that is dependent upon outside voices. My execution is different - I tend to pump up others to feel better about me while asking or even accepting too little for myself - but it is no less dishonest and pathological (see "Saving Other People" thread). In fact, it leaves me perfectly available to any self-centered type and open to the inherent hazards. I do what I do because I needed a means of defense and deflection, so it's not that different, underneath.
I guess, for me, I have decided that while I have been shaped by these experiences, it is ultimately not relevant to what I do next, now that I have a certain knowledge on my side.
My husband has progressed, is at least out of crisis, and he may or may not improve more. My mother has not improved much at all, although I think, on some level, she tries - and I am ultimately vindicated by my extraordinarily happy child who is so accomplished that she will be a Student Ambassador to Australia next summer. I think my mother has noticed, and is somewaht more deferntial than she used to be because of it. A liitle shamed, maybe - because she sees the differences in the dynamic. She is only a little different with me, but she is VERY different with my daughter. Even if she never admits it, she has learned something.
So while I have suffered greatly, yes, I also can still see the humanity of those who have hurt me - as I can see my own humanity, even while I have hurt me, too, at times, by simply not giving enough credence to the "I" voice..
A couple of other boards out there give striking evidence of the perils of obsessing on NPD. After four years, when I occasionally look in, I see the same names, still telling the same stories (no worse than mine) - even though the dreaded "N" is more or less gone (and if not, they are still not looking at "I" enough to figure out why leaving a horrible relationship is so impossible). They have not made progress within themselves, instead opting to continue to puzzle over "why" and "what is HE doing now".
Sometimes there is no explanation (not apparent, anyway) - and that means that the challenge is simply to change your own life and behavior, regardless of who did what to whom and whether or not the "doer" is NPD (and most cases do not include an official diagnosis of anything at all, so is all layman conjecture).
As Dr. Grossman's essays point out, Narcissism is both a cause AND an effect of voicelessness. To me, this means that the true voices/identities of the narcissists in my life are no less and no more important than mine. To tolerate or love them is optional, but to recognize them for what they truly are - products of their experiences - is an important step toward recognizing ME.
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What is your point? With all due respect you come across as holier than thou and somewhat of a know-it-all. If that is the case why bother with this group?
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Not my intention to bother, which is why I confine these ideas to this post rather than intruding on someone else's (not that I think that's what you're doing, you're responding directly to my post, that's okay. I AM challenging a status quo, so I don't expect otherwise).
I would never dream of presenting these ideas in another post, unless a relevant question was raised and the questioner seemed open to it - that WOULD make me holier-than-thou - and I'm not. I don't respond directly to the posts that bother me, simply because I respect the rights of everyone here to their own discrete experiences and feelings, even if I don't agree with how they approach them. I have, in fact, provided a couple of supportive responsives in other posts, when I've felt I have something useful to offer on the subject. If I've only felt put off, I've stayed out of it. That is not a criticism of you, by the way. You have a right to respiond in any way you see fit.
My reason for continuing to work in this thread is basically two-fold:
1: Posting gives me a means of articulating and reinforcing my thoughts to myself...using my voice functionally and claiming some ownership, as it were.
2. If I'm fortunate, there may be some others here, who like me, arrived because of the content of the essays in GENERAL (rather than just the parts about Narcissism, although those have great merit, too), and may also feel ready to discuss those ideas on a different level (notice I did not say "better"). Hope, in a nutshell. Because the title does not include Narcissism. Beacause the essays and articles do not dwell on Narcissism. And because the impact of Narcissism is acknowledged. ALL these things are important.
That's really about it. Plus, as I've been through so much myself, I also have some very passionate feelings about my experiences.
It should not be overlooked that learning to deal with criticisms like yours without sinking into the ground or running away, or worse, questioning the validity of my own thoughts and feelings- e.g., being true to my voice - can't hurt. It can be really tough to listen to a sharp criticism and resist the temptation to hide or deflect.
Granted, it's a bit easier online than in life, where I sometimes crumble like a stale cookie then proceed to crush myself with my own bootheel of self-sabotage (little bitty squashed up voice so wretched and undeserving may as well not have anything to start with crap), but hey - you have to start somewhere.
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I have been reading this thread. I think I was very caught up with my Narc significant other. Going over and over in my mind the rhyme and reason of his behavior. It is true what you say.......you can only make progression with your own health when you can give those thoughts up and choose to live again. You cannot change the past, only your response to the future. As a survivor of an N it took me about 4 years to really begin to pull out of it and start to live again. So keep posting because validation of your reality is everything. Patz
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Thank you, Patz. I really appreaciate that!
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What is your point? With all due respect you come across as holier than thou and somewhat of a know-it-all. If that is the case why bother with this group?
sorry i have to agree.i was kinda sorta with ya anony-- until your last message
you've said your piece--made your point very well. so?
did you visit here to give your view, or to try to convert and/or chastise the other side of the coin? we all got your message and it was respectfully dealt with.if there is other stuff you want to talk about then fine but why the need to keep drilling in the same dam thing?
there are differences, there are exceptions, we are all happy for you. so whats next?
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questioning the validity of my own thoughts and feelings- e.g.,
no one is questioning the validity of your thoughts and feelings.consider that it could be your bedside manner at times that leaves room for improvement, and this is where the replies more in the negative are coming from.also since you are *expecting* flak [your words not mine] at least merely consider that you could be expressing yourself in an overly guarded way and with an unfriendly attitude.
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I thought I might not make it through all that; cried every single day for over a year, lost all kinds of weight, did not sleep more than 5 hours a night, needed anti-anxiety meds to get through the day even marginally.
Then you understand those who are in this place now.
These conditions excuse nothing, but they do go a long way to EXPLAIN. While explanations are not always clear or as straightforward as these examples, largely they are there somewhere, if obscured by denial and fear.
There are even more specific explanations that describe how some people stay stuck in these places. If you ever look up Otto Kernberg, Peter Fonagy, Robert Karen, J. Reid Meloy, David Celani, et al., you will get a clearer picture.
A couple of other boards out there give striking evidence of the perils of obsessing on NPD. After four years, when I occasionally look in, I see the same names, still telling the same stories (no worse than mine) - even though the dreaded "N" is more or less gone (and if not, they are still not looking at "I" enough to figure out why leaving a horrible relationship is so impossible). They have not made progress within themselves, instead opting to continue to puzzle over "why" and "what is HE doing now".
First, that isn't this board. Second, there are people who will always be stuck in the same place. There are reasons for this. If you understand the reasons, you can move past these people and basically ignore them. Or you can observe them and learn something about psychology. But it doesn't take away your voice. It's just the way people are on newsgroups.
Sometimes there is no explanation (not apparent, anyway) - and that means that the challenge is simply to change your own life and behavior, regardless of who did what to whom and whether or not the "doer" is NPD (and most cases do not include an official diagnosis of anything at all, so is all layman conjecture).
Okay. And trying to pass along your epiphany to others rarely works. Everyone has to reach their own epiphany.
bunny
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when I occasionally look in, I see the same names, still telling the same stories (no worse than mine) - even though the dreaded "N" is more or less gone
Holy Crud. There are far more issues for some people then the small or large amount of time the N was actually in their lives. With all the intricacy you approached other messages with, I'm surprised you are looking at this one thing so simplictically.
Some people are in offline therapy for years, and if I am not mistaken, I think you included yourself and/or your husband in this lot! So what is the difference??? These boards are a form of "therapy" for many.
The board is also not only for N issues, which you yourself have brought up as a reason you were attracted to it. So again, what does how long N has or hasn't been around have to do with people remaining here and continuing to talk about their voicelessness or other issues?
You sound awfully a lot like another recent poster who had a big problem with how long the same people remained on a given message board.
A word of advice: If it bothers you so much, quit checking in all the time!!!
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Why the last message, particularly? Is it the part about criticism? The response of the previous poster WAS a criticism. I cast no blame for the delivery of that criticism at all - I did not think it was wrong of the poster to deliver it (I thought that was clear, but sometimes I don''t communicate as well as I'd like to).
In my defense, I am not chasing anyone around on the message board trying to convert them. I am responding to posts within this thread with the assumption that if someone responds, they wish to engage in the conversation.
For me, ideal responses would be conceptual rather than defensive, and some have been more objective than others.
I guess I am also assuming that if you do not wish to explore the notion of, um. let's call it "Humanizing Your Narcissist(s) as a Means of Humanizing Yourself and Achieving True "I" Voice", you will probably just not visit the thread. Also assuming that if you believe your position justified than you don't really need me to tell you you're right, ageee with you, or accept chastisement to support it.
Although it may seem like it to you, I am chastizing no one. I am, however, noting that the capacity to de-humanize and marginalize is one that is in all of us - and risky, especially if one subscribes to the "contagion" theory of Narcissism. If you want to look at it from a Demonic N perspective, this is just the sort of thing a Narcissisist would love to see - for the rest of us to lose our capacity for compassion and objectivity. That's what Demons do, according to lore - tempt humans to behave badly toward one another, whispering justifications in the ears of the vulnerable and disenfranchised.
I think in that respect, Vaknin the Big-Self-Important-though-completely-uncredentialed-N is doing his job well - encouraging intolerance and lay-diagnostics, dooming any and all who harm us or betray us to the hell of hopelessness, telling us our best defense is to not accept the Humanity of our (possible) Narcissists, but instead to hate and loathe them because they deserve it - and by doing so, give up our own humanity. I don't doubt he chuckles at the way the "N"-victim phenomenon has spread like wildfire all over the net. What better "supply" than that?
As for re-hashing, that is true and not true at the same time. New ideas, such as my take on "I voice", have been introduced gradually as the thread unfolds, and often as I develop a new idea I relate it to an older one.
Many of the ideas I am presenting, especially as concern the affirmative "I" voice, are directly inspired by the essays and articles associated with this board, which unlike those of Vaknin, are reasoned, thoughtful, inclusive - and above all - hopeful.
This is just one thread mixed in with a whole host of others. As it was more or less said to me, you don't have to visit where you risk being offended.
I tend to bail out very quickly when I read angry "N"-directed words at the beginning of a post and just don't respond and rarely read further, since it does not serve my conviction that true voice cannot be acquired by focusing on an "other". If this thread is contrary to your convictions, then you would be well-served, probably (your call, really), to simply write me off as misguided and ignorant and move on.
You might be right, even - but my objective, as spelled out above, is somewhat just to articulate to myself - and if I'm lucky, find someone who feels similarly enough to explore the ideas with me.
I think we all post largely in self-service of some sort - whether it is to vent, grieve, commune, explore ideas, or simply share our opinions and experiences.
I am no different.
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Plus, as I've been through so much myself, I also have some very passionate feelings about my experiences.
Guest, I think we are all passionate about our own experiences. As has been pointed out, each person's journey is their own. Water seeks its own level. Why try to change the current or tide for others? To take this water analogy a bit further, your recovery may have shown that you are ready to swim laps while some of us are still learning to wade in and splash around a bit. Me, I'm approaching dog paddle status, perhaps! :wink:
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If this thread is contrary to your convictions
My exiting this thread for good after this message is not at all for the reason you state. You just don't realise you'd get a lot further in your sharing and interacting if your expression were different. If that were the case, in agreement or not, I for one would have stayed, heard you out a lot more, and probably would have found it interesting to interact with you.
If you really believe your message is a valuable one worth being heard, work on the delivery and as opposed to hearing the antagonism in it and replying to that, a lot more people {including myself} would be open to really hearing the message you intend them to, and considering it.
then you would be well-served, probably to simply write me off as misguided and ignorant and move on.
Unfortunately, done ...and... done.
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Wow - I'm frankly kind of surpriesed at how many responses came in and how quickly. I'm afraid that I was only able to respond to the Guest immediately folowing Patz (thanks again).
But a few quick points in response to the intervening posts:
I don't think that "N" boards take away my voice, but I am saddened to see so many people trapped in what appears to be a dreadful, painful lockstep and even more sadly, often encouraged to remain so by others also embittered.
True - passing on epiphanies rarely does any good, but it is helpful to me to articulate the ones I have, whether anyone reads or agrees or not. (see the last post - probably missed in the rapid influx - for the way in which my ideas evolve through the course of repeated posting).
Uh, actually, no - the focus on Narcissism on this did not attract me to this board. The content of the essays did, which do acknowledge Narcissism, but do not fixate on it. I was surprised by the focus on Narcissism, given the tone and content of the articles (also see last post for specific commentary).
I did not say that the "critical" poster was questioning my validity - I said that "I" avoided that response in myself, which was a good thing. My experinces inform me to, erroneously, punish myself if others criticize or disagree...Just sharin' that I, personally, dodged a bullet from my own gun. Yea!!
I don't expect "flak", exactly, but I don't expect to recieve nothing but roses when I know I'm challenging ideas. To be challenged in return, I guess, is waht I expect - and maybe even to find a like-minded party or two. Maybe. Looking like not, but at least the debate is open.
Same poster - You may be absolutely right about the "bedside manner" thing. In my defense, I am not a doctor, just a person with opinions, but I am guilty of writing as an essayist. This is probably because I strategize ("I" voice stuff is a strategy) and explore best when I demand that kind of thinking from myself - depersonlizing my ideas a little for my own benefit and clarity. The reasons for that are complicated and legion, and the act is useful, but your point is good.
Lastly (though I'm sure I overlooked a couple more important points/criticisms), Bludie:
Here, I may be very evolved and swimming laps - conceptually, that is. The ideas are finally getting right. The application? Hit and miss. In other ways, I'm in horrible shape and trying to come to terms with a lifetime of self-defeat and self-sabotage. Regardles of what my collection of loony Narcissists may or may not have done to help me arrive here, I am here - and given that this board is a place where others suffer from not dissimilar malaise, I am seeking my own level.
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think in that respect, Vaknin the Big-Self-Important-though-completely-uncredentialed-N is doing his job well - encouraging intolerance and lay-diagnostics, dooming any and all who harm us or betray us to the hell of hopelessness, telling us our best defense is to not accept the Humanity of our (possible) Narcissists, but instead to hate and loathe them because they deserve it - and by doing so, give up our own humanity. I don't doubt he chuckles at the way the "N"-victim phenomenon has spread like wildfire all over the net. What better "supply" than that.
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i agree but even if there is some value-- most narc. boards are already vaknin savvy enough to know to either take him with a boulder sized grain of salt or leave him altogether.i hope you don’t think *he* is what is driving the messages of narc. experience here! lordy-lordy-no…. i'm not saying you said we were-- but just voicing that we are not vaknin ignorant here or brainless enough to blindly follow someones words.we have our own life experiences with n's to draw from and can make up our own minds about how we view them.i can tell you that even most innocent newcomers to narcissism have trouble believing the drama of vaknins words.
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I don't think that "N" boards take away my voice, but I am saddened to see so many people trapped in what appears to be a dreadful, painful lockstep and even more sadly, often encouraged to remain so by others also embittered.
I wonder whether you're annoyed by them as well as saddened. Sure it's annoying (if there's any truth to what I think). There's one individual on here who drove people crazy by being stuck. But I think people now accept that he's stuck and they are okay with where he is. He's been given every possible insight and epiphany. But that isn't going to move him. It's going to be a choice he makes to change something or other. Maybe even a small detail about his thinking. Maybe your posts will influence him, there is a slight chance. I wouldn't hold my breath or anything.
There were a couple of books that were life-changing for me and I bet no one would have predicted that these particular books would have influenced me. So you never know.
bunny
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Thank you for that clarification re: Vaknin.
Unfortunatley, in the time I was visiting those boards with any frequency, there was a significant obsession with "Dr." Vaknin, which I found alarming and still do. I did notice a link or two to his "work" here, which may have caused me to believe that there was more of a relationship than there is.
The experiences I have had with the Vaknin-worship crowd of yore do certainly color my thoughts, especially when I happen to know that my Narcissists are human.
Hearing this from you certainly helps; Thanks!
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Uh, actually, no - the focus on Narcissism on this did not attract me to this board
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"The board is also not only for N issues, which you yourself have brought up as a reason you were attracted to it."
Uh, actually, no- you misread. Note the word "not". You didn't answer the question either. Oh well--
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No, probably not so annoyed as a liitle horrified for the stuck one - and maybe not a little afraid of my own potential to be stuck.
Potential? Who am I kidding? I am stuck - in my twisted miasma of self-inflicted brutality. So I guess any "stuck", anywhere might be alarming to me.
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Since you were planning to be gone, I thought the question must have been rhetorical...I'll gladly answer to the best of my ability if you wouldn't mind re-posing it?
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Thank you for that clarification re: Vaknin.
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welcome.
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Regarding how one can appear Stuck and calling an N evil:
Some posters - myself included - may appear to be Stuck in their situation because - well even if OUR thoughts and actions have changed, the Ns in our life have not.
We may not dwell on them, but they continue to find ways to jab us.
We take 2 steps forward, 10 steps back as soon as an attack comes.
We're not talking about a nasty neighbor, or a teacher that you didn't like. We're talking about our parents or significant others who have spent many years TRYING to hurt us for their pleasure.
No one gets OVER it. They move on, but it never goes away until they are all dead. Just like reliving a beautiful moment of life, we also can't stop reflecting on the ugly times and happenings either. Sometimes the reflection is an act to pinch ourselves to find out if we are alive and truely lived through it. Sometimes it is a therapy in dealing with our grief and loss.
Mine Nparents are still alive and well and will probably outlive me just cause they are so mean and evil. And if anyone wants to question me terming my Nparents "evil", walk in my shoes. Live my past 45 years. Know these people the way I have known them and you will know and look evil in the face.
I read an article the other day regarding a mother down south who forced her daughter to drink bleach then sat on her until she died - WHY?
Because her daughter got pregnant.
This is the type of threats I lived with for many years.
I still live with them if I talk to my Nparents - but I do not so I'm much healthier today than I was last year.
I'm sure if one looks at a board for mothers who have lost a child, they will find people posting who appear Stuck in the moment. They really aren't stuck. They are continuing to live their lives. But they have found a community that understands and lets them speak out about their pain.
That is what our board is - a community where we feel comfortable speaking out about our pain. If someone can't stomach reading our experiences and thoughts, well no one is forcing you.... :wink:
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I AM bypassing those threads that look as though they may bother me - and I assume everyone else will do the same.
I don't think anyone has to change because I have an opinion. Unless we live together, neither of us is truly affected by the difference of opinion, so there is no need to negotiate. These posts are, again, to relate what I have observed and learned and what I feel strongly about - not to convince others to jump on my bandwagon. If you glean something useful to you, great. If not, that's fine, too.
Again, I would not invade another post to attempt to "convert" or "correct" anyone, I am simply sharing my thoughts in a confined place.
As for "EVIL" parents - MY mother, when I requested that my cabbage be left raw (cooked cabbage makes me ill) one day when I was 12, proceeded to grab a handful of my hair, force me to the floor, pull my head back and place the cabbage knife against my throat - saying, "you're such a miserable and ungrateful child I should just kill you now." I'll never forget the look on her face. This among many, many other events that I won't bore you with now.
Is she evil? I certainly thought so at the time, and for many, many years. I look at her now, though, and I see a woman whose self-concept is so fragile and her psyche so damage by her years as my grandfather's child, that she can't even handle an alternate opinion about cabbage, as if to question her way of doing things, or to even express a firm preference for doing it another way, threatened her very existence.
Her experience was one of excess privilege combined with continuing denigration: Cashmere sweaters one day, "you'll always be stupid, Mxxx" the next, watching her brothers beaten repeatedly and so badly that one lost his hearing...just a postcard moment, for reference.
Do I truly love her? Not in the way we all wish we could love our parents. Distantly, at best. But some, I guess. She can be very generous and kind if she's feeling secure, which sadly is not often. But it DOES happen - I just could never really see it when I held on to the "evil" label.
For me, to continue to see her as evil, given how much damage she has suffered herself, would require me, in fairness, to see myself and the ways in which I am much-less-than-perfect due to my own damage, as evil also.
I don't think I'm evil. I think I'm more able to confront my damage, because ultimately, I am stronger than she is - at least a little.
As for the woman in the news, that is an evil horrible act - but sane people don't do that. She should not be allowed to wander free, certainly, but she is clearly ill. Separating her form the act, I don't believe she is evil.
Same goes for the woman in Texas a few years ago who drowned her 4? 5? small children in the bathtub. Clearly, she was very mentally ill - but not evil.
You are right, no one ever gets over it. In fact, on the subject of my husband, we were talking last night, and he related how frightening it felt to him when his therapist told him that I may never stop being angry about his "emotional terrorism (my term)" of a few years ago.
I think, because I've learned to manage my anger about all that, he was quite surprised when I said "I've always thought that was probably the case, and so far it's true. I'm still angry. I think I will always be angry. But I am finding a place for that anger among all my other feelings and thoughts about you and my life."
As for the "other woman", a manipulative, remorseless harpy who was my friend? for five years until she decided she wanted my life, I'm still looking for a place of peace. She will probably never apologize or express remorse, and if she does change, I will not be privy to it (nor do I want either of those things).
The anger I have (and "evil bitch" has rolled off my tongue before, for the record) does not harm her - it harms ME.
Actor Susan St, James, after she lost her son (and her husband and other son were badly injured) to a small aircraft accident that occured due to the pilot's decision not to take the time to de-ice the wings, was asked about resentment. Her reply stuck with me:
"Resentment is like taking poison and hoping the other guy dies."
THAT is pretty darn elegant, I think.
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PS. I'm not an unfriendly person! Nor intolerant! Really!
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Hi Guest. Can I bring this lot over here?
Elsewhere I said:
Ack guest! Do you mind if I use bold on your words? I feel it might be a bit impertinent. You're not stupid or slow and I don't want to insult your IQ but hey, wait a minute...
With my mother, the main focus is her health (or lack thereof), which is something she's been working at destroying-yet-centralizing for as long as I can remember. I cannot tell you how many times, even recently, I've repeated myself in response to her concerns. It's so hard to listen to, while I see that she stubbornly does nothing to improve the situation. I do try to ACT sympathetic, but I've frankly run out of supportive feelings, so it IS pretty much an act at this point.
just popping in and not much time but well, I wanted to say... I'm sorry guest. Bunny said something elsewhere about being "annoyed" I think. I liked what you said Bunny and wanted to talk about it - being annoyed because we're still acting out vs. being healthily annoyed and realising we can't do or say any more and moving on. But I gotta go, apologies. Important stuff in here I feel. And it applies to me too. More anon....best to all, P
PS I haven't read other threads today so if this is covered elsewhere....I haven't seen it yet.
Guest replied:
I get your point, no offense taken, Portia. My IQ, I like to think, is high enough but not as high as I would like it to be. Sigh. Plus my butt is entirely too big. Life can definitely be a rip-off, no?
Seriously, though:
"It's so hard to listen to" does imply some annoyance, but more deeply, it makes me sad because she is, literally, killing herself. It amounts to a slow suicide. To distance myself from that by "running out of sympathy" protects me both from the annoyance and the pain of watching it. For me, annoyance is more superficial and does not involve much caring, one way or the other - just inconvenience. That's my definition, anyway.
I agree with you about similarities in other posts (and a certain relevance to your comments), but I would feel more comfortable if we kept debates in that one or another similarly separate- just for the sake of the original poster.
Okay! This is what Bunny said earlier on this thread:
Anonymous wrote:
I don't think that "N" boards take away my voice, but I am saddened to see so many people trapped in what appears to be a dreadful, painful lockstep and even more sadly, often encouraged to remain so by others also embittered.
I wonder whether you're annoyed by them as well as saddened. Sure it's annoying (if there's any truth to what I think).
I grabbed that quote of yours about your mother:
It's so hard to listen to, while I see that she stubbornly does nothing to improve the situation.
And I’m not sure if you saw what I saw? Do you find it annoying listening to posters here (who concentrate on the perp)? Is it hard to listen to them? While they stubbornly do nothing to improve their situation? Are you annoyed with them or with your mother?
That’s what I meant. Not sure if you were with me or not earlier.
Maybe you aren’t acting this out (is that the right term? I don't know)here. I see it in myself from time to time. Why do I always look at the person I perceive to be the toughest poster on the board*** (usually people who don’t acknowledge others, who ignore, who never say thanks or even talk to others etc etc) and think, I’ll talk to them? See if I can ‘get through’ to them? Because I’m still hoping about my mother. I won’t give it up. It bugs me. Keep recycling the same old rubbish in different forms.
How about you?
*** anyone reading: If you think I mean you, it's very unlikely that I do mean you. The tough posters I'm talking about don't tend to stay here.
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toughest poster on the board*** (usually people who don’t acknowledge others, who ignore, who never say thanks or even talk to others etc etc) and think, I’ll talk to them? See if I can ‘get through’
I'm not sure if that's directed...I get the feeling you can be mighty subtle by veiling your target under the umbrella of inclusivity...but I could be wrong.
If that is NOT directed, you can ignore this bit: I have said thank you a several times on this and other threads, I have tried to respond objectively (e.g. "talk") to any one who has responded to me, I have acknowledged everyone's right o disagree with me without being subject to my judgement (which should not matter anyway), I have not denied the function of pigeonholing an agressor, although I do maintain that I think it is unhealthy and should be dispensed with for the sake of the agressee. That's the end of this bit - if I misread your intentions, please overlook. Plus, I'm clearly not so tough, or I wouldn't be here.Thank you.
I maintain that my definition of "annoyed" is hallmarked my a certain superficiality and dismissiveness, devoid of true caring. This does not mean that annoyance and sadness/concern/caring cannot exist mutually, thay can.
Although I may be annoyed by my mother, or other posters, or anyone, that does not mean that my comments reflect ONLY annoyance. In fact, sometimes, the level of "N" anger I see is just saddening and alarming, and annoyance is NOT part of the equation. Thje posters that are really annoying are the ones who write, in effect, "I'm taking my toys now and I'm going home, nah-nah."
From my post above:
The anger I have (and "evil bitch" has rolled off my tongue before, for the record) does not harm her - it harms ME.
Actor Susan St, James, after she lost her son (and her husband and other son were badly injured) to a small aircraft accident that occured due to the pilot's decision not to take the time to de-ice the wings, was asked about resentment. Her reply stuck with me:
"Resentment is like taking poison and hoping the other guy dies."
That pretty well covers my entire argument. Shame I didn't think of it before.
As for the possibility of acting out my frustrations from elsewhere, I suppose it is possible, although I do make a lot of effor to be reasoned and thoughtful - as it is entirely possible that the (what I see as) undue amount of attention and hostility this thread (and me by extension) has received may well be the product of acting out, as well.
Is she evil? I certainly thought so at the time, and for many, many years. I look at her now, though, and I see a woman whose self-concept is so fragile and her psyche so damage (sic) by her years as my grandfather's child, that she can't even handle an alternate opinion about cabbage, as if to question her way of doing things, or to even express a firm preference for doing it another way, threatened her very existence.
I have repeatedly said that I respect everyon'es right ot disagree and approach their situation differently without relinquishing my right to consider it unhealthy under all conditions, period.
That said, I don't get to decide for you. You agree or you don't. I am not offended if you don't, and I think the converse should be true as well.
I don't know what else to say; I've responded over and over again with the same kinds of statements (No one has to agree, I don't intend to accost people to convert them, I jus feel strongly that it harms rather than helps, etc, etc...) I keep writing in this thread because I keep getting responses and challenges. So far, I have not heard anything to change my mind...perhaps I will and one day re-demonize everyone because it just seems more right, somehow.
I was really hoping for a dialogue about that, but moreover, as the idea evolved for me, the applications and exercises of "little voice" issues raised many posts ago. Somehow, that part got utterly no attention and went nowhere.
I guess the confrontation is much more fascinating to many of those who have replied here.
And sadly, I've probaly missed a couple of opportunities to engage in real dialogue because I've been so busy trying respond to the posters who think this is all a personal insult directed their way. It's NOT.
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I was really hoping for a dialogue about that, but moreover, as the idea evolved for me, the applications and exercises of "little voice" issues raised many posts ago. Somehow, that part got utterly no attention and went nowhere.
Are you serious? Utterly no attention? How can this be when you've had post after post on your thread? Yipes - a bit self absorbed, are we?!
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I maintain that my definition of "annoyed" is hallmarked my a certain superficiality and dismissiveness, devoid of true caring. This does not mean that annoyance and sadness/concern/caring cannot exist mutually, thay can.
To me, annoyed means I don't like it. Kind of an umbrella term for me.
In fact, sometimes, the level of "N" anger I see is just saddening and alarming, and annoyance is NOT part of the equation.
What's alarming about it? I ask because I'm not alarmed. I'm not sad either, now that I think about it. I have a different reaction. I mainly find it interesting.
bunny
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just a quickie
I'm not sure if that's directed...I get the feeling you can be mighty subtle by veiling your target under the umbrella of inclusivity...but I could be wrong.
Wow I can be mighty subtle? :shock: Me?! Really? :D Ha ha that’s not the idea I have about myself - I think I’m a bull in a china shop most of the time, yep I do. All the subtlety of a 2-ton tank sometimes. But anyway, no. That was not directed at all at you guest. Certainly not. No way. I just know that sometimes we here can say something like that and a few eyebrows go up – does that mean me? - kind of thing. It’s been played out, we’ve talked about it. That’s why I said that.
I was really hoping for a dialogue about that, but moreover, as the idea evolved for me, the applications and exercises of "little voice" issues raised many posts ago. Somehow, that part got utterly no attention and went nowhere.
What do you want to talk about? Want to talk about that? Want me to talk with you or not? I’ll happily stay or go, just let me know. P
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Tired...left to pick up my daughter from school at 2:15 yeaterday due to snow, did not make it home until almost 10:00. A trip that normally takes 30 minutes turned into an 8+ hour ordeal - for me and apparently the rest of town. Some 3,000 kids had to spend the night in their schools because buses could not travel. The snow turned to solid sheets of ice as soon as it hit the ground. I've never seen anything like it. So, forgive me if I'm inarticulate today.
first:
To me, annoyed means I don't like it. Kind of an umbrella term for me.
Communicating online can be difficult, even with emoticons. Subtle shades of meaning get lost when the demeanor and body language of the posters can't be seen. Because of this, I think , semantic differences can become even more pronounced. Fortunately for real life, and unfortunately for online conversation, everyone adds their own nuance to dictionary definitions - particularly as apply to words that describe feeling and emotion. I would, thinking about it, include "annoying" in that group.
What's alarming about it? I ask because I'm not alarmed. I'm not sad either, now that I think about it. I have a different reaction. I mainly find it interesting.
(I'm really unclear on "Interesting"...I'm not sure what you're saying is interesting, so I won't respond to that, pending a clarification from you, if you wish.)
Well, it's possible that this is another one of those words in that category. When I say I'm alarmed by it, I don't mean bells clanging and sirens screeching, I mean something more on the order of very concerned, I guess. I really do care about people, for better or worse. That's pretty much that.
If one finds any truth in the Susan St. James quote above, then necessarily hanging on to rage and objectifying others is self-destructive, thus, if you care about people, a concern if you see it happening.
I do understand how one can be in that place, and also how hard it is to get out (sometimes I really think this point is lost). Don't get me wrong there. But I also think my point about the power of language is important...."I statements" and all that. If "I" find something unacceptable, or if "I" am hurt or angry, it does not matter one bit if the person violating me is a narcissist or not. It may be helpful to have an understanding of that possibility as it can help one strategize about future interaction and/or help de-personalize the insult/harm, but ultimately, the "I" needs to own the experience, not the "N" or the "He" or the "She"
(an aside: You pointed out abuse of the I voice by others, as in "I feel you are selfish", etc, - that's not true I voice, it's really a YOU statement - (i feel) YOU ARE SELFISH. All this "languge power" thoery can also be helpful in interpreting the value/truth/accuracy of the statements of others, as well. Just probably helpful if you can do it with yourself, first).
None of us here have been harmed by a disease or a disorder. We've all been harmed by people. Many of them may be narcissists, many of them may be borderlines, many of them may be people with whom we fail to comminicate effectively, or vice versa. Without a professional diagnosis, none of us can be quite certain, not because we're not smart enough, but because we are, by definition, not objective enough - too close and too hurt - and largely, simply unqualified. I mean, you wouldn't ask a Doctor to figure out why the water is backed up three sinks, or a Plumber to tell you why your abdomen hurts, right? Some Doctors may know a fair amount about plumbing, and some Plumbers may have been great anatomy students, but it wouldn't make rational sense to have them change roles just for the sake of convenience or expediency.
What I man by "objectifying" is this: To say N-Ex instead of Ex, or N-Mother instead of mother, we are saying the person is not a person but a disorder. I think when we box anyone into a tiny definition like that, we also do that to ourselves. Then we can be just as easily defined by our Victimhood - we may become the V-Ex, the V-child.
It is probably tempting to say that it doesn't matter, it's just shorthand, but the abuse of I voice you talked about can be just as easily dismissed by the same means - and it shouldn't be. "I voice" abusers would probably be quick to protest: "But it's the same thing!", but we know it's not. "I feel YOU are selfish" is not at all like" I DID NOT GET WHAT I WANT from you and I FEEL ANGRY about that."
The former is simply an indictment and an assault on the integrity and intention of the audience, and places all the reponsibility for the feelings of the speaker on the audience. The latter is a claim of ownership of the feelings by the speaker, and an admission by the speaker that the problem is that the "I" is unfulfilled and the "I" is upset. It leaves open the possibility of negotiation to address the upset and unfulfillment, as well as the possibility of getting one's needs met elsewhere. The former is a "doom" statment that says "You can't ever really make me happy, even if you give me what I want, because you are just too flawed anyway." Natural reactions to that statement include: "Why try? I'm (insert flaw here) anyway, so no matter how hard I try I can't live up to your expectations.", or worse, "I'm a horrible person, let me bend over backwards and lose myself to please/appease you so you'll think I'm good and love me."
And there's the rub (at the risk of offending some who make take this as a personal criticism - it's not, I don't know you):
Hypocrisy, if innocently and unintentionally. If it is not okay to be the recipient of that kind of assault, it is by definition not okay to deliver it. At least that's so if one has any attachment to ideas like "What comes around, goes around", "What goes up must come down", "Water seeks its own level" or "Do unto others."
I think we can inadvertently "ask for it" by setting the example. This may not apply to every situation, and certainly children ask for nothing and can't be held responsible for either initiating (not likely) or mimicing (very likely) this kind of non-productive communication (contagion at work). However, in the course of seeking positive change, if we can consistently demand true I voice from ourselves, then we can very confidently demand it from those around us (or at least interpret the speaker's "I" subtext accurately), making us less defensive and giving us more immediate emotional control over the given situation. And much more confidence about what to do next if positive results aren't forthcoming, since by now we have a clearer understanding of the I Voice and what it really wants and needs.
Again, easier said than done, but for me, looking at this as (one of many) an immediate power-and-voice-reclamation objective(s) is healthy.
While it is true that some people have NPD, and some people are Victims, to limit our definitions in either case is not the postion of personal power, ownership, or voice. Instead, it is imposing a limit on our own growth. He/She is an N, ergo I am a V - end of story.
Or so I think (for the sake of those who feel I'm arrogant). It's all just food for thought, as much for me as anyone. I do, however, believe there is a lot to the St. James statement. I'll repeat it because I like it:
Resentment is like taking poison and hoping the other guy dies.
I've been trying to practically apply the "language power" concept, to pretty good effect, for some time. I think Dr. Grossman's essays helped me articulate the idea to myself better (although he did not talk about that directly, his ideas led me to it), as applies to my personal "voice" issues. After reading them and really thinking about it, I feel I've been experiencing a more conscious and successful application, as opposed an amorphous and intuitve (though sometimes successful) hit-and-miss effort.
Portia:
Quote:
I was really hoping for a dialogue about that, but moreover, as the idea evolved for me, the applications and exercises of "little voice" issues raised many posts ago. Somehow, that part got utterly no attention and went nowhere.
What do you want to talk about? Want to talk about that? Want me to talk with you or not? I’ll happily stay or go, just let me know. P
See above for what I want to talk about (The Power of Language and Application of I Voice - for lack of a better, more well thoguht out summary statement). As for staying or going, you choose. You don't bother me, especially, even when I don't entirely understand you. Sometimes, when I do think I understand, I think your ideas are pretty good, at least on other posts.
However, I would prefer that you refrain from cawing delightedly and taking pot-shots at my IQ when you feel that I am in error or missing a point ("ACK", to me, is a from of cawing). Ipromise to behave equally respectfully. This is not a contest to me, I don't care who is smarter than whom. I have no reason to believe that you are significantly smarter or less smart than me, and I feel certain that I am as smart as I can possibly be, just as much as nature was kind enough to arrange - which is enough. Can we call it a draw?
I definitely don't like it when you challenge my personal worth and integrity, but I don't mind one bit if you challenge my ideas - or better yet for me, add to them and make them better.
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Sorry about being snowbound in traffic. Sounds horrific.
(I'm really unclear on "Interesting"...I'm not sure what you're saying is interesting, so I won't respond to that, pending a clarification from you, if you wish.)
When someone is outraged, demonizing their abusers, stuck, etc., it doesn't alarm or sadden me. I'm just interested (curious, intrigued, reflective, pondering) about their internal state at that moment. I try to figure out what they're processing.
Well, it's possible that this is another one of those words in that category. When I say I'm alarmed by it, I don't mean bells clanging and sirens screeching, I mean something more on the order of very concerned, I guess. I really do care about people, for better or worse. That's pretty much that.
What would you be concerned about? They seem okay to me. Do you think something bad is going to happen to them.
If one finds any truth in the Susan St. James quote above, then necessarily hanging on to rage and objectifying others is self-destructive, thus, if you care about people, a concern if you see it happening.
Susan St James said this but it's not her quote. It's been around for a long time. I don't see anything wrong with feeling resentment, bitterness, hatred, etc. As long as it doesn't run one's life all the time. I bet even SSJ felt them although she wasn't going to publically state it.
If "I" find something unacceptable, or if "I" am hurt or angry, it does not matter one bit if the person violating me is a narcissist or not. It may be helpful to have an understanding of that possibility as it can help one strategize about future interaction and/or help de-personalize the insult/harm, but ultimately, the "I" needs to own the experience, not the "N" or the "He" or the "She"
This is an intellectual understanding which many people have, even as they continue to be stuck. Translating it into emotional acceptance is a much slower process. The emotions are at the physical level and physical mass is slower than thoughts which have no mass.
[/quote](an aside: You pointed out abuse of the I voice by others, as in "I feel you are selfish", etc, - that's not true I voice, it's really a YOU statement - (i feel) YOU ARE SELFISH. All this "languge power" thoery can also be helpful in interpreting the value/truth/accuracy of the statements of others, as well. Just probably helpful if you can do it with yourself, first).[/quote]
I know. That was my entire point. I-statements are often misused. For me, the main thing is not to use "you" statements. Anything but that!
None of us here have been harmed by a disease or a disorder. We've all been harmed by people. Many of them may be narcissists, many of them may be borderlines, many of them may be people with whom we fail to comminicate effectively, or vice versa. Without a professional diagnosis, none of us can be quite certain, not because we're not smart enough, but because we are, by definition, not objective enough - too close and too hurt - and largely, simply unqualified.
If I believe someone is borderline or narcissist, I am pretty darn sure about it.
What I man by "objectifying" is this: To say N-Ex instead of Ex, or N-Mother instead of mother, we are saying the person is not a person but a disorder. I think when we box anyone into a tiny definition like that, we also do that to ourselves. Then we can be just as easily defined by our Victimhood - we may become the V-Ex, the V-child.
I haven't felt that people were being literally described as a disorder. It was illustrative (to me) so we'd know what the poster was facing in their interactions with this person.
I see the dynamic as two people interacting, two people contributing to the interaction. If one of them is personality disordered, the interactions are going to be very disturbing. One person may need to change the interaction somehow or other, or stop interacting with this person. My goal is to look at the interactions and see what's going on there. I don't see one person as Victim and one person as Perp 100% of the time. It's a bit more textured than that. In other words, no matter how the poster presents the situation, I'm not going to take it exactly as it's stated to me.
bunny
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Sorry about being snowbound in traffic. Sounds horrific.
thanks! I still feel worn out.
What would you be concerned about? They seem okay to me. Do you think something bad is going to happen to them.
Something potentially bad, in my opinion, is actively happening. Of course, there are degrees. But still, it's concern about, say, a nonchalant boychick tossing an open pocket-kife in the air and catching it. Perhaps there will be no lasting damage, but wouldn't you want to say: Knife throwing is a useful skill perhaps, and you are exercising your coordination, but be aware of the possible consequences."?
Boychick, at a certain point in life, will make up his own mind and knife-toss or not of his own voilition. But at least, at this point, Boychick has reached awareness that injury is possible. If he continues this pursuit through life, hopefully it is with an awareness that he is at a certain risk, so he carefully monitors the knife-throwing exercise to avoid risk. Or not, as he chooses.
Or, more simply, "Watch your step. there's a curb there."
(Don't read too much into all that, I don't entertain notions of being anyone's savior or mother. I mostly post in this thread just to articulate my ideas and sort my own feelings, as I've said. I love language, so naturally I would examine the potential of language to contribute to both problems and solutions.)
Susan St James said this but it's not her quote. It's been around for a long time.
I'm sure you're right, and I believe she even said something to that effect in the interview I saw, but she is the only place I can accurately attribute it to, personally. Still, it's a great thing, no matter who said it originally. Elegant. Clever.
I don't see anything wrong with feeling resentment, bitterness, hatred, etc. As long as it doesn't run one's life all the time. I bet even SSJ felt them although she wasn't going to publically state it.
My position is not about feelings; feelings cannot in and of themselves be wrong or right, ever, any more than blood type or eye color. I guess it's best thought of as a rules of engagement thing. If the store clerk is rude and nasty, I FEEL very much like throwing my purchase at h/er. If I do that, and then attempt to complain about the manager, who has just seen me throw the item(s) at the clerk, I've just lost the war for the sake of winning the battle. My complaint cannot be taken so, so seriously anymore by the witness. Who am I to ask for self-control from someone else when I can't demonstrate it myself?
Again, this is highly philosophical, and should not be entertained as a mandate or an instruction. It's just a way of looking at it.
This is an intellectual understanding which many people have, even as they continue to be stuck. Translating it into emotional acceptance is a much slower process. The emotions are at the physical level and physical mass is slower than thoughts which have no mass.
Yoyu'll get no argument from me on that one. As I've stated before, I'm still struggling for peace, still stuck in some really unhealthy cycles...I'm talking to myself just as much as anyone, particularly as regards I Voice and other ways I can use language to influence my own thinking/emotional patterns.
I know. That was my entire point. I-statements are often misused. For me, the main thing is not to use "you" statements. Anything but that!
I consider strictly using one's own I Voice to be sort of training wheels. I think if one practices quite a lot, then one might be more likely to read the subtext in those abusive statements quickly, thus be less likely to be hurt as deeply.
For example: "You think you're so smart, but look what you did!." In addition to being a pretty juvenile thing to say, it's also telling in subtext-land. To me, these kinds of statements translate to "I don't always feel so smart. I feel better about myself if I catch you in a failure." Or so it is so long as I'm thinking diligently in "I" Voice. If I'm not, and I'm thinking in fragile insecure words, I personalize it and feel bad - and violated.
If I believe someone is borderline or narcissist, I am pretty darn sure about it.
I feel "quite sure" about some of that, too...but I am not in a position to say with singular authority. Relavant to this position, even though one poster was quick to say that his board is not influenced by the Non-Doctor Vaknin, I see terms in other posts on this board that are exclusive to Vaknin and don't exist in the academic or professional worlds of psychoanalysis and diagnostics, such as "Malignant Type" or "Patho- Type". Unfortunatley, much of the information on the web is either exaggerated, woefully incomplete, or simply without legitimate basis in the professional world.
I don't work in that world, and I think it's important not to decide that I'm an expert on the matter because I've dealt with people who seem, to me, to have many of the symptoms that are described even in professional circles. The equivalent, to me, is how some of my clients try to present themselves as authoritative, but it is clear to me and all the rest of the people in my field that their information, while based on real concepts, is sketchy and inadequate to address the task.
In other words, we understand the concepts of NPD, but do not have the nuance that experience and education brings to make us able fully address or even define the issue.
A technicality, perhaps, but I think it's important so I try not to give myself "expert" status in this area. But that's just me.
I haven't felt that people were being literally described as a disorder. It was illustrative (to me) so we'd know what the poster was facing in their interactions with this person.
I understand what you say, but I personally think it's a mistake to overlook the potential of language as it affects interaction Even interaction with Self. For me, the best place to start is by gaining a deeper understanding of how I speak, and what I really mean by the words I choose.
It's a bit more textured than that. In other words, no matter how the poster presents the situation, I'm not going to take it exactly as it's stated to me.
Exactly my point.
Thanks!!
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Something potentially bad, in my opinion, is actively happening. Of course, there are degrees. But still, it's concern about, say, a nonchalant boychick tossing an open pocket-kife in the air and catching it. Perhaps there will be no lasting damage, but wouldn't you want to say: Knife throwing is a useful skill perhaps, and you are exercising your coordination, but be aware of the possible consequences."?
Do you mean that they are in danger of hurting themselves as if with a knife? And you're afraid for them?
My position is not about feelings; feelings cannot in and of themselves be wrong or right, ever, any more than blood type or eye color. I guess it's best thought of as a rules of engagement thing. If the store clerk is rude and nasty, I FEEL very much like throwing my purchase at h/er. If I do that, and then attempt to complain about the manager, who has just seen me throw the item(s) at the clerk, I've just lost the war for the sake of winning the battle. My complaint cannot be taken so, so seriously anymore by the witness. Who am I to ask for self-control from someone else when I can't demonstrate it myself?
Maybe you're assuming a feeling of rage, hate, etc., will inevitably lead to acting on it. Most of the posters don't act on it. They're just venting.
I consider strictly using one's own I Voice to be sort of training wheels. I think if one practices quite a lot, then one might be more likely to read the subtext in those abusive statements quickly, thus be less likely to be hurt as deeply.
I think there are a lot of things people can do to protect themselves, to be more aware of abuse. When they're ready to learn these things, they'll start looking into it.
Re: "You" statements. Most people use "You" accusations. From childhood we hear, "Why are you doing that?" What are you doing" "You're not listening!" etc. We're trained to make accusatory, blaming, 'you' statements. I assume that most people will use "you" statements because of their pervasiveness and I'll be ready for it. There's no way I'd try to stem this because it's impossible.
I feel "quite sure" about some of that, too...but I am not in a position to say with singular authority.
I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to ID someone who is acting out in a borderline or narcissistic way. They are pretty obvious. I don't really need an authority to tell me who I'm dealing with. And professionals can be clueless about it.
I don't give a rip about Vaknin.
I understand what you say, but I personally think it's a mistake to overlook the potential of language as it affects interaction Even interaction with Self. For me, the best place to start is by gaining a deeper understanding of how I speak, and what I really mean by the words I choose.
I'm looking at the language, at the feelings, at the interaction.
bunny
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The interaction here is above my level of understanding right now. I understand most (but not all) of the words being used, but I don’t understand the interaction.
I don’t understand the ‘why’ behind the interaction. I’m not asking for an explanation. I’m saying I don’t understand and I’m not going to participate for that reason. Also my ‘gut’ tells me not to participate and for once I’m going to listen to it.
But before I go I have this to say in response to you Guest:
However, I would prefer that YOU refrain from cawing delightedly and taking pot-shots at my IQ when YOU feel that I am in error or missing a point ("ACK", to me, is a from of cawing).
I was not and am not cawing delightedly and taking pot-shots at your IQ. My intention was the opposite.
I’m not so stupid that I don’t recognise when someone is smarter than me. I think that you’re smarter than me. I thought that when I first spoke to you. I think I might have a middling IQ; I don’t know, I’ve not been in a position to be tested.
I do not lie here and I attempt not to be hypocritical. I hate hypocrisy. I hate lying. I hope I am as honest as I can be at any given moment. That is very very important to me.
I feel hurt and angry reading your comments. My problem. I have a big huge problem with being told that I’m doing something when I know that’s not my truth. I have a big huge problem with that type of unfairness, injustice. I have a big huge problem with feeling that suddenly I’m evil because someone thinks I’m doing something on purpose to hurt them out of some sort of sport. I don’t do that and it’s a very big piece of shit for me to be accused of doing it. So I feel very angry and hurt right now. My (expletive deleted but indicated here because I am that emotional) problem.
I am English and have not been to the USA. I have not and do not use any other message boards. I have picked up the word ACK on this board. ACK is a form of cawing to you? It wasn’t to me. To me it was like a sympathetic or empathetic (who the hell knows) wince or groan. I won’t use it again.
Can we call it a draw?
I’m not playing and never was.
I definitely don't like it when YOU challenge my personal worth and integrity
I didn’t challenge any of that. I did not do that and if you felt challenged, I did not intend you to feel that.
YOU want to discuss linguistics and I/YOU statements? Look at the YOU statements YOU have used above. I’ve put them in red capitals.
I don’t want to talk to you any more. I don’t want you to talk to me.
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The emotions are at the physical level and physical mass is slower than thoughts which have no mass.
Agreed and agreed. I'd like to point out that people routinely use certain language forms and expressions to bring about changes in their physiology. Prayer and meditation specifically are used as calming agents, Just the act of "asking" for calmness and strength or concentrating on calmness and strength produce changes in blood pressure, heart rate and a host of other physiological mechanisms. This is well documented.
I believe that, by extension, use of terms like "N" and "Victim", even internally, we can also affect those physiological outcomes. These terms and others are provacative (to different degrees with different people, of course, but provacative nonetheless), in that they provoke feelings specific to the term (N=Anger, Victim=powerlessness).
Do you mean that they are in danger of hurting themselves as if with a knife? And you're afraid for them?
I liken this to the poster who felt that invading her ex's e-mail privacy was justified (at least for a time - she seemd to change her view after a few well-reasoned responses, if I remember correctly). Many of the responses, though not all, presented the alternate view that this activity could be harmful to the poster - and so long as the ex was not confronted, would have no impact on him whatsoever. Basically, all the effects of inspecting his e-mails were on her - not him - and likely to be negative.
In that situation, other posters here spoke aout about what they felt was a potentially hazardous behavior on the part of the privacy-invader. They pointed out that even though her immediate desire to assuage her curiousity (and her possible deeper desire to stay connected, as some pointed out - important) did not change the situation or help her personally in any way, it only served to keep her stuck, more or less. Of course, some other posters disagreed and thought she should continue if she felt like it, which is fine. I tend to agree with the nay-saying group, myself., although I did not participate te in this thread (I thought the nay-sayers had it pretty well covered).
The bottom line: My "fear" for those who, in my estimation, use language that is provacative (like secretly reading e-mails, also provacative), and thus "stay connected", is no greater than that of the posters who responded to the Privacy-Invader's query - and should not be seen as somehow more intense or pathological than that.
"There's a curb, watch out."
Maybe you're assuming a feeling of rage, hate, etc., will inevitably lead to acting on it. Most of the posters don't act on it. They're just venting.
I thik my postulation is based more on the idea of "acting-in" than "acting-out", and the idea that language can keep you connected to the negative power dynamic (N=powerful, Victim=powerlessness) even as you try to break free.
I think there are a lot of things people can do to protect themselves, to be more aware of abuse. When they're ready to learn these things, they'll start looking into it.
I agree with you. Those who have read these posts may or may not find the ideas here applicable to their own situations, now or ever. I will probably never know one way or the other about what others do as a result of hearing my thoughts, but I do know that the act of writing it down solidifies the concepts for me, helps me refine them and promotes my success in healing.
Everyone is different. I'm something of an academic, and it has always been helpful for me to operate through language channels. Art and music are recognized forms of therapeutic expression, so why not language? Writing is something I do, both for fun and profit (technical instruction manuals, training manuals, speeches (for others, refining their ideas and delivery), and for myself - music and lyrics).
I suffered for a good while from PTSD symptoms during, and especially in the year after, my husband's acting-out period. What helped me the most in learning to manage the most overt symptoms was developing a specific understanding of "how it worked" - the way trauma is ultimately processed into memory. Part of this process is linguistically driven, though not all. It helped me, anyway. That kind of strategy may not be useful for everyone, and I'm not claiming it will be. I do know, however, that once my academic understanding was firmly in place, my emotional state made faster progress. I'm not done, certainly; I'm riding the second wave at the moment, but I've reached the second wave, which is good. I'm hoping that I'll eventually make it past the third, and fourth, and so on - eventually getting past the breakers altogether.
Re: "You" statements. Most people use "You" accusations. From childhood we hear, "Why are you doing that?" What are you doing" "You're not listening!" etc. We're trained to make accusatory, blaming, 'you' statements. I assume that most people will use "you" statements because of their pervasiveness and I'll be ready for it. There's no way I'd try to stem this because it's impossible.
[/b]
Of course not, at least not in the global sense of changing the whole world. For me, however, refining my understanding of the YOU-I differential helps a great deal in terms of interpreting not only my own speech, but also the speech of others. Can I apply this in every single situation? No. Sometimes I can't make my idea clear without a "you". But as I practice evaluating in YOU-I terms what I am about to say, it becomes more reflexive and quick over time, and as a result, so does my ability to evaluate what others are saying to me, applying the same rules. This helps me to resist unrealistic feelings of worthlessness, powerlessness, and a whole host of other self-directed negative emotions when on the receiving end of those nasty YOU statements. It also helps me be less angry and resentlful, e.g., to refrain from taking the poison.
Not that one shouldn't ever be angry, but it helps in terms of managing anger in a more healthy way.
I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to ID someone who is acting out in a borderline or narcissistic way.
True, but I think the phrase "in a borderline or narcissistic way" is salient. Many people who act out in these ways under some conditions may not meet the criteria for a full-blown personality disorder under all conditions.
I don't really need an authority to tell me who I'm dealing with. And professionals can be clueless about it.
I do think one needs objectivity, which, if you have hurt or traumatized in some way, you necessarily don't have. Also true that some professionals can be clueless, but that's irrelevant unless said professional is evaluating the individual directly. If one asks their therpist to diagnose their "abuser" indirectly and through the anecdotes of the "victim", they are unlikely to get a response more satisfying than "maybe".
I'm confident that most professionals have a more refined understanding of personality disorder than I do. I'm like the Plumber who was an excellent anatomy and physiology student: I might be right when I say "probably appendicitis", but I'm only guessing. It could be an ectopic pregnancy, leukemia, or gas. An unprofessional diagnosis of NPD may be right, but the same symptoms and behaviors could also result from a brain injury or tumor. I've worked in the developmental disabilites field, and I've seen some of the same symptoms/acting-out behaviors in brain-injured persons.
If you discovered some day that your "abuser" had, in fact, suffered a head-trauma as a child, one that affected h/er ability to control h/er impulses or process thoughts and feelings effectively and "correctly", would it make a difference in how you felt about them? How would you feel then about your unconfirmed diagnosis? Just curious...
Again, I think it can be helpful to at least understand the possibility because it can help one to navigate future inteaction or even simple understanding, but such understanding should not be considered a final authority. This is just a technical argument, really. I personally believe that NPD is what I am dealing with with my husband and mother, but only "personality disorder", not specified, on the part of my husband (who has actively sought help and therapy) has been confirmed. My mother has not really sought help for more than a couple of sessions here and ther over the years (she drops out very quickly), so there is no confirmation or dispute available.
Ultimately, is doesn't matter one way or the other. Trying to label either one of them does not help me in the least - it is reaching an understanding of the dynamic and communication patterns that matter most in my healing efforts. I would have to do this to manage communication with a brain-injured person, as well.
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Portia, I think you're plenty smart. I've read some of your other posts in other threads. Your brain is perfectly big as I see it, and I'm really sorry that you feel less smart, because I don't see that.
If you don't believe ACK...I don't want to question your IQ, but hey... (or wincing or groaning) is equivalent to "How can you be so thick you don't get that" then that's fine. To me it is agreessive and hostile - and does, in fact, directly question my IQ if you read it exactly as written, but it also shows to me the subtext "I don't always feel so smart; I feel better about my smarts when I think you've made an error". I really hope that you will find a better self-concept and always feel smart enough, someday, even if people don't agree with you.
That said, I have as much right as any other poster her to feel insulted when subjected to challenges to my worth - and making an issue out of my IQ is just such a challenge. As much as you feel angry and hurt by my rebuttal, so I too feel hurt and angry by "But hey... (Nah, nah - look what you did - see? you're not so smart!)" . In fact, I wanted to shrivel up and cry and go down the path of self-loathing for a minute ("I'm not good enough! I'm not smart enough! She doesn't love me! She doesn't think I'm a decent person!") and YES BUNNY, it was a physiological response - and intense, at that. For a minute, I did not even go on to look at what was highlighted and brought up for discussion - I just felt worthless.
But I stopped myself and I listened to your subtext and my own. In response I called a spade a spade and made my boundaries clear, affirmed my own worth, then enthusiastically invited you to challenge my ideas or even help flesh them out and make them better - but made firmly known my preference that you leave personal worth issues like IQ out of the conversation.
As far as I can tell, this is something we're all trying to learn to do effectively: Confront the realities of being hurt, validate our own experiences and our self-worth, and set boundaries...plus never, ever let an abuser or anyone else tell you that what you just experienced did not happen.
For the record, the only other people who have ever said these kinds of things to me are my mother and her brother. Everyone else who has a contrary point to make just challenges my ideas/statements without making intellect or lack thereof part of the discussion. Sometimes they win, sometimes I win, sometimes we agree to disagree. No harm/no foul.
The why, or at least the how, of the interaction is pretty simple. I post my thoughts, experiences, hypotheses and observations. Some respond by challenging my statements/ideas, I clarify myself and/or support my statements, or agree with certain points, a dialogue continues. Some others respond with hostility and defensiveness, I try to explain what I'm saying is not a personal attack but a viewpoiont; a dialogue may or may not ensue after that. Probably not.
I have repeatedly said that no one has to agree, change their ways, or jump on my bandwagon. I have repeatedly said, more or less, that these are concepts I use in pursuit of understanding and healing. If they apply to you or are useful, great - stick around and join in. If not, disregard. I can't tell you what is best for you.
Again, I post as much or more for my own edification and clarity as anyone else's. I don't judge anyone who does it differently, I present an alternate view only. On other threads, I contribute without making any statements about whether the poster is using language rightly or wrongly, nor demanding that they change their language and see if it helps so they can prove me right; that is usually irrelevant to the immediate issue and need of the poster. No one has to prove me unequivocally right under all conditions and for all people, this approach is right for me.
These are academic concepts geared toward deveoping strategies for healing, not ultimate truths. I have not tried to present them in any other way. I do not demand that anyone adopt them as truth, I only ask that they be considered objectively. if the reader wishes. If the reader does not want to consider them, okay to that too. Certainly I will appreciate it more if they do, but these ideas are working for me whether anyone else wants to consider them or not.
I'm sorry, Portia, that you feel hurt by me, and also so that you doubt your own smarts so much you need to challenge mine instead of challenging my view. Same goes for anyone else here who feels that their integrity and worth is challenged by my alternate views.
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For your consideration:
That was a good vent. Way to go! And I have to agree with you that a lot of these labels are just......cruel and useless, as you have said. I think Philski may have been just wanting to point out his/her feelings of being drained of energy, after this latest encounter with his/her father, but I see your point about labels and the harmful way they have demeaned you (if that is a correct way of putting it?).
I am wondering if it might help for you to forget the stupid labels and just think about what it is in your thoughts, feelings and behaviour, that you may wish to change, and focus on those things, rather than allowing your self to sort of disappear inside a label? Does that make any sense? Who cares if you're co-vampire-blah-blah-cheese-cake-clepto-dependant if all that does is put a silly name on you? It's whatever you wish to improve in yourself and your life that really matters, not what anybody else wants to call it. Right? What if you were to ditch the labels and just go for some clear, simple goals?
This is from Philski's Psychic Vampire post. It is attributed to Guest (not me). It seemed really relevant to my points. For the sake of keeping things peaceful and non-confrontational, I probably would have refrained from terms like "stupid" or s"silly", but there it is...in the words of one of the regular posters here. Same idea.
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I'm sorry, Portia, that you feel hurt by me, and also so that you doubt your own smarts so much you need to challenge mine instead of challenging my view. Same goes for anyone else here who feels that their integrity and worth is challenged by my alternate views.
Guest,
I have watched your thread for days in utter amazement. You clearly love to:
agitate and question others' feelings while claiming to provide an alternative view
read your own posts and respond to everything and anything on the board as if you're an authority
ponder the lint in your navel
While you may have had some valid points along the way (focus on self rather than on others) the positive impact of your message gets lost in the judgmental tone, abundance and length of your posts. They've dominated the board so completely for days that they border on tenets of narcissim. Can you see this at all?
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I am the person who posted what you copied and pasted from the Philski thread.
On the previous page of this here thread (I love THAT language), you wrote:
For example: "You think you're so smart, but look what you did!." In addition to being a pretty juvenile thing to say, it's also telling in subtext-land. To me, these kinds of statements translate to "I don't always feel so smart. I feel better about myself if I catch you in a failure." Or so it is so long as I'm thinking diligently in "I" Voice. If I'm not, and I'm thinking in fragile insecure words, I personalize it and feel bad - and violated.
I learned something by reading your words. I also try not to use "you" statements because I do think they cause others to immediately feel defensive. Unless, ofcourse, my goal is to cause someone else to feel that way, which I am guilty of intentionally doing so sometimes, I admit, but often after I have tried all else I can think of to communicate.
So far, I haven't really listened to the "you" statements that have been made toward me and have not tried to turn them around into some "I" statement the person might be trying to make. This is interesting and I bet if I try to do more of that, I will indeed understand more about where the person is coming from, what they might be feeling, and why they are saying what they are saying. Also, as you say, maybe it will help me not to feel immediately injured or insulted, and maybe, it will help me to respond more appropriately somehow?
Is it also an idea to take "I" statements and turn them around too? I was just thinking about that and wondering. For example, you suggested that you might not have used the words "stupid" and "silly", as I did in my post on the Philski thread. So if I turn it around from "I might not have used the words "stupid" or "silly" to "You should not have used the words "stupd" or "silly", well.......that's a whole new concept, isn't it?
When I read what I've quoted of your words above, and when I read what you have written about language and it's many meanings and how we all use it differently, I can't help but wonder if it all might apply to the interaction you and Portia had here in this thread, and if it might be possible that neither person really meant to insult the other, and somehow simply miscommunicated ideas, and mis-assumed intentions? :?
I have to say, though, that I personally like the words "stupid" and "silly" when I use them to apply to "things that hurt", such as labels, or even "people" that do so. It's my polite way of using excessive foul adjectives without using excessively foul adjectives. Ofcourse, you may be right, it might be something in my use of language, that I could consider changing, if your "I" statement is turned into the "you" statement I suggested?
For now, my attempt to help another person see how silly and stupid labels really are, when it comes to making changes in how we live, what we think, feel and do about, and for ourselves, is a good thing, imo.
I think those words clearly express my opinion on those particular labels and how much use they are for the person labelled.
I am interested in hearing more of your ideas and I do not assume that your intention is to cause harm to or one up anyone. I'm not labelling you as a trouble maker or anything else.
Guest for now
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My posts do not dominate this board - maybe this thread, but not the board.
Perhaps you perceive the length and abundance of the posts to be evidence of my narcissism, but I can postulate that your unrealistic assesment of my domination of the whole board may speak also to the same tenets - that somehow what I write is a judgement of you, personally, or that everything I write is designed to make you feel bad about yourself - in other words, about you.
For the record, I have posted only a few times in other threads, offering none of what is said here in this thread, and have not questioned anyone's means or habits, even if I've felt like it. for the most part, I have offerd only sympathy and validation for the poster - whether or not I like their language choice.
I have not derailed anyone else's post to promote my ideas or prosyletize or condemn. Period. This, however, has been done to me repeatedly on this thread, and more importantly, the original poster of another thread, wherein someone decided to take the thread off-track to confront me.
I, too, have experienced some utter amazment, but only in the case where I have been directly insulted have I "bit back". I don't like to fight, I like to discuss.
I was enjoying a fairly reasoned exchange with Bunny (even though we are not truly in agreement). I would appreciate if you would either join in with a salient point or just forget about me and this thread.
I promise never to hi-jack your thread and call you names; would you mind doing the same for me?
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Discuss this if you wish:
These are academic concepts geared toward deveoping strategies for healing, not ultimate truths.
How much are you paying for objective consideration by posters here? What do you get out of our considering these concepts? Money? Kudos? Ideas? Feeling good about yourself? What’s your angle here? What do you want for yourself?
I’m available. But I doubt that I can be objective. I’m a human being and all of my experiences are subjective. I don’t think objectivity exists, unless you’re a rock.
And I don’t think ultimate truths exist either. Correction: if they do, we can't know them directly.
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Guest for now:
Thank you, thank you thank you!!! I'm not sure I can express what a relief it is to read your post. I really appreciate your efforts to get past the "length and abundance" (guilty as charged) to ferret out the deeper meaning.
Just to be clear, I wasn'y really taking you to task for your choice of "stupid and silly" (I happen to agree with you), but more in a roundabout way was being defensive because I know so many people here do just think of me a s a troublemaker - so I feel like I have to walk on eggshells here! I'm sorry I used you as "my voice" to say the words ;-) ; Like I said, the ideas are getting sophisticated but I'm not altogether there yet.
I learned something by reading your words.
Just thank you, that makes me feel really good!
I also try not to use "you" statements because I do think they cause others to immediately feel defensive. Unless, ofcourse, my goal is to cause someone else to feel that way, which I am guilty of intentionally doing so sometimes, I admit, but often after I have tried all else I can think of to communicate.
Boy-howdy, do I relate to that.
When I read what I've quoted of your words above, and when I read what you have written about language and it's many meanings and how we all use it differently, I can't help but wonder if it all might apply to the interaction you and Portia had here in this thread, and if it might be possible that neither person really meant to insult the other, and somehow simply miscommunicated ideas, and mis-assumed intentions?
An undeniably good point. However, I do think people sometimes deliberately insult others under the veil of humor. I have come to a point where I try to consider the sub-text, but as almost anyone here would probably agree, there is a point where sticking up for one's self is as important as identifying and understanding the subtext.
That said, that exchange was regrettable in many ways, one of which is that I ran out of patience and objectivity. And I meant the apology to Portia, too.
I really appreciate your post. I hope you visit more. Maybe we can explore also the idea that the labeller has something to lose in the act as well? what are your thoughts on this as it relates to YOU-I dynamic?
Troublemaker :wink:
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I'm sorry, Portia, that you feel hurt by me, and also so that you doubt your own smarts so much you need to challenge mine instead of challenging my view.
Wow is that back-handed or what! That sounds to me like “I’m sorry that you’re so stupid!”
That’s what I hear! You DO think I’m stupid don’t you? Do you?
I have a problem with anybody telling me that they know better than me - for sure - what I do in my head!
“you doubt your own smarts so much” - so you’ve decided that is the truth all on your own hey? I have no say in this? You’re undoubtedly completely correct in your view of me? Is that what you’re saying? It sure sounds like it me. You’re telling me how my mind works? Are you?????
IF you are - what a put-down!
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These are academic concepts geared toward deveoping strategies for healing, not ultimate truths.
How much are you paying for objective consideration by posters here? What do you get out of our considering these concepts? Money? Kudos? Ideas?
Feeling good about yourself?
What’s your angle here?
What do you want for yourself?
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the positive impact of your message gets lost in the judgmental tone, abundance and length of your posts. They've dominated the board so completely for days that they border on tenets of narcissim. Can you see this at all?
Well I didn't read this person's posts as having a judgmental tone and as far as I know there is no rule about length of posts on this board.
Does it bother you that this poster's posts "have dominated", in your opinion, the board for days?
I'm not trying to upset you by asking this. I'm seriously wondering why any one poster's posts being on top of this board would bother anyone else? Isn't that just what people are interested in responding to at the time? Isn't that just people's free will and choice as to what to post to, speak about, voice their opinions, ideas, feelings, experiences on?
How does a person's posts being most responded to here make that person N? I don't get it.
Guest for now
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However, I do think people sometimes deliberately insult others under the veil of humor.
What would you say if I told you that Portia has an amazing sence of humour and tends to kid around quite a bit? What you describe above is sarcasm, right? It's hard to determine the difference here where there is no inflection or tone, for me, anyway. I think I sometimes get the two mixed up. Maybe it's a good thing sometimes, now that I think about it?
I'm sorry, Portia, that you feel hurt by me,...
This part of your appology sounds sincere to me but it does not take responsibility for causing the hurt, only acknowledges the hurt and the fact that Portia feels the hurt was caused by you.
and also so that you doubt your own smarts so much you need to challenge mine...
Here, imo, your appology is practically nullified (sorry--I don't mean to hurt your feelings by saying this--I'm just observing and pointing out what my take is......it's not bible truth). Here it seems more like an allegation, than an appology. I think I would feel attacked, rather than appologized to, if this were said to me. What do you think?
Thank you, thank you thank you!!! I'm not sure I can express what a relief it is to read your post.
You're welcome, welcome, welcome! Hope I haven't just cooked my own goose by saying what I'm reading! (I have a pretty good sence of humour too, by the way).
I think we all have to be careful about the way we use words. I also think we are all only human and will mess up sometimes.
I...was being defensive because I know so many people here do just think of me a s a troublemaker - so I feel like I have to walk on eggshells here!
Don't assume to know what "so many people" ..."think" , is my best advice. Not everybody has posted yet. The labellers ARE the troublemakers here. They push your buttons and cause you to feel whatever...... that causes you to respond.... whatever and they can get.......... whatever they want...(some) I suspect.
Nevermind silly stuff, I say.
Guest for now.
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Hi Portia:
What’s your angle here? What do you want for yourself?
In a nutshell what I want:
Guest For Now's reply above - a combination of acknowledgement and challenge that harmoniously co-exist, an invitation to continue the discussion based not on gut reactions but on careful coinsideration and reasoned exchange, under the assumption that no harm is intended, with questions rather than accusations or condemnations.
Not to mention the source of much of my inspiration - the concepts of voice as presented by Dr. Grossman's essays. this is the only place I have seen these specific ideas addressed, so I've stuck it out , assuming that at least some of you have read them and explored the ideas therein with the same interest as I ahve. Of course, I have been dangerously venturing into ass-out-of-u-and-me land, it appears.
I was on the verge of sighing and giving it up, but I was feeling like Bunny and I (and for a brief moment, you and I) were starting to approximate reasoned exchanges. But I have to say that Guest For Now's post describes by example what I want better than I could myself.
How much are you paying for objective consideration by posters here?
Been feeling like I pay quite a big price. It seems that many posters feel I do not deserve reasoned criticism but instead feel that because I have challenged some of the status quo ideas that I deserve contempt, instead.
What do you get out of our considering these concepts? Money? Kudos? Ideas? Feeling good about yourself?
I have not found any money in it so far. I will let you know if I do. I suppose that could be a good thing, and if there is money to be found, I look forward to finding it!
I get, through my own "pondering of lint in my navel", a gradual clarity about voice issues and voice reclamation-development strategies.
Tthrough exchanges with posters like Guest For Now, I may gain even greater clarity, given that her challenges are thought-provoking yet still reasoned and kind. And it doesn't hurt that, like me, she can speak to where she has applied some ideas effectively and where she has not. I sometime learn an awful lot from people who are trying and failing, succeding and not, at the same tasks as me.
Kudos never hurts, but is not necessary - and I don't even want it if it's insincere. So it is better, even if it hurts, that posters have said what they thought/felt honestly than if they had pretended to feel otherwise. I don't like some of the things that have been said/suggested about me, but I guess that it is also an important exercise to stick up for myself and beliefs as politely as possible, even in the face of hostility. I'm sorry I was not so graceful with you.
New ideas do come gradually, sometimes, with lengthy discussion/consideration, even if you're only talking to yourself.
Feeling good about myself is the ultimate goal of exploring language and voice issues.
(I realize now that I am assuming Guest For Now is Female - Please correct me if I'm wrong. I guess my experience says that most posters are female. Please correct me, GFN, if I am wrong! I hope there is no inadvertent insult in this assumption!)
Thanks for asking.
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I believe that, by extension, use of terms like "N" and "Victim", even internally, we can also affect those physiological outcomes. These terms and others are provacative (to different degrees with different people, of course, but provacative nonetheless), in that they provoke feelings specific to the term (N=Anger, Victim=powerlessness).
It depends on how deeply people feel provoked by these phrases. There is also (IMO) the concept of "justice." If people get a sense of justice by using these words instead of acting out, then I say go for it.
In that situation, other posters here spoke aout about what they felt was a potentially hazardous behavior on the part of the privacy-invader. They pointed out that even though her immediate desire to assuage her curiousity (and her possible deeper desire to stay connected, as some pointed out - important) did not change the situation or help her personally in any way, it only served to keep her stuck, more or less. [...]
I see this as kind of complex. What you write above sounds accurate. Another thing I observed was an identification-projection deal going on. What she described doing and her feelings about it, triggered people's stuff. Our posts showed our projections about it. We may have oscillated between identifying with the poster, and also identifying with her ex whose boundaries she crossed. Many people have been 'victims' of boundary crossings and many have fantasized about invading other's boundaries. So there was a lot of stuff going on here. I don't exclude myself from it. Bottom line, IMO this wasn't really about the poster or trying to warn her. It was about our feelings on boundaries.
I think my postulation is based more on the idea of "acting-in" than "acting-out", and the idea that language can keep you connected to the negative power dynamic (N=powerful, Victim=powerlessness) even as you try to break free.
Sure. Along the same lines as "the power of positive thinking" i.e. the power of suggestion. I agree totally. OTOH, people aren't going to do this so I'm ready for it.
I do know, however, that once my academic understanding was firmly in place, my emotional state made faster progress.
Some people are like this (me included). Others need to process things somatically. They aren't into the intellectual stuff and it doesn't resonate with them.
Of course not, at least not in the global sense of changing the whole world. For me, however, refining my understanding of the YOU-I differential helps a great deal in terms of interpreting not only my own speech, but also the speech of others. Can I apply this in every single situation? No. Sometimes I can't make my idea clear without a "you". But as I practice evaluating in YOU-I terms what I am about to say, it becomes more reflexive and quick over time, and as a result, so does my ability to evaluate what others are saying to me, applying the same rules. This helps me to resist unrealistic feelings of worthlessness, powerlessness, and a whole host of other self-directed negative emotions when on the receiving end of those nasty YOU statements. It also helps me be less angry and resentlful, e.g., to refrain from taking the poison.
I've learned some refinements of the "I-you" statements in couples therapy. With my H and I, the I-statements didn't work at all. Did not change one thing. But when we said, "I wish" instead of "I feel xxx" or "I would like xxx" it was more helpful. Whatever works.
True, but I think the phrase "in a borderline or narcissistic way" is salient. Many people who act out in these ways under some conditions may not meet the criteria for a full-blown personality disorder under all conditions.
I think personality disorders are extreme conditions. I would imagine your mother has at least one PD, she sounds extremely paranoid for one thing. And her murderous rage, to me, was so impulsive and dangerous that I imagine she has severe psychiatric problems. So I would put her in that category as to how I'd deal with her.
I do think one needs objectivity, which, if you have hurt or traumatized in some way, you necessarily don't have. Also true that some professionals can be clueless, but that's irrelevant unless said professional is evaluating the individual directly. If one asks their therpist to diagnose their "abuser" indirectly and through the anecdotes of the "victim", they are unlikely to get a response more satisfying than "maybe".
The therapist isn't there to present diagnoses, as it's not helpful to the therapy most of the time. Some of them will never reveal their diagnosis to the client. Anyway I feel pretty objective. I don't need another's diagnosis to know what I'm dealing with. And I'm not that confident about professionals knowing more than I do about it. I know quite a bit about it. And if I deal with the person inaccurately, they will act out in a certain way and I'll change my idea. This is actually what a therapist does but I'm not their therapist.
bunny
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Hi again T, (don't want to call you that nasty name--but if you insist).
Maybe we can explore also the idea that the labeller has something to lose in the act as well? what are your thoughts on this as it relates to YOU-I dynamic?
I will have to think about that. What does a person who so quickly labels others lose in the process?
Well....I guess they might lose an opportunity to really get to know someone whom they might later enjoy knowing? Possibly they might lose a chance to learn and grow as a result of knowing that person? If they mislabel the person, they might end up paying for that later too? They may also be seen by others as judgmental and unfair?
As it relates to YOU-i dynamic? You've lost me. What do you mean?
I have a 7 week old puppy and I must go live puppy life now. I'll be back, but I can't say when. Sometimes it might be days before I get time to visit, especially now that turbo-pup is here to stay.
Enjoy your day and keep posting your thoughts, feelings, and ideas. You have a right.
Guest for now.
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Don't assume to know what "so many people" ..."think" , is my best advice. Not everybody has posted yet. The labellers ARE the troublemakers here. They push your buttons and cause you to feel whatever...... that causes you to respond.... whatever and they can get.......... whatever they want...(some) I suspect.
Nevermind silly stuff, I say.
Thanks for the perspective and the support. I have been feeling increasingly under attack, which make it very hard to maintain composure and grace and still say what I mean effectively and gracefully, with consideration for others.
No, your goose is not coooked. I appreciate the points you are trying to make and don't find them completely without merit. However, I think Portia and I should duke it out directly with each other if necessary, or just agree to try harder to get along and understand each other objectively, or just leave each other alone - whatever works best for everyone concerned.
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Re: the Portia-Guest misunderstanding...
My feeling is that Guest isn't familiar with Portia's style which is sardonic and British. Guest took it at face value, seriously, and her feelings were very deeply hurt. She could have asked, "Portia, I'm really stunned and hurt by your phrase "ACK" etc. Did you really mean that?" Then Portia could have cleared it up very quickly. On the other side, Portia might not realize that people who aren't familiar with her might take her words seriously and feel really bad. Now it's blown into a big thing and I kind of think it could be fixed even now by a few conciliatory words (if they want to).
just my view...and unsolicited opin...take for what it's worth...etc....
bunny
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Hey T, before I go,
I have been feeling increasingly under attack, which make it very hard to maintain composure and grace and still say what I mean effectively and gracefully, with consideration for others.
At least your objective is in the right place! Wouldn't it be fantastic if we could all do that, even while feeling under attack.
I think Portia and I should duke it out directly with each other...
so butt out, right? Point taken without insult.
Hope it works out positively for you both.
Guest for now.
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Thanks GFN and Bunny. Both of you have provided good insights into the "misunderstanding" between Portia and myself.
Portia, I still question the meaning of your statement about IQ, but I am sorry that I did not handle it more gracefully. Some of the posts here have left me feeling quite raw, hurt and misunderstood, and I also have to admit that intellect-directed statements are a hot-button issue for me.
I come from the only family I've encountered that thinks it's a bad thing to be smart and will punish you horribly if you slip up and somehow make them feel bad because you are. Talk about cognitive dissonance!
They have used statements very similar to yours: "I hate to question your IQ, but...". or "We all know how smart you are, but...", etc, etc.
It's hard to figure out your identity when you know a) Everyone says it's good to be smart, but b) people will hate you for it and get a kick out of denigrating you for it.
Anyway, I've got a lot to do that I should have been attending before now. I will respond to points and inquiries as soon as I can, probably next week (I think academics and strategies can take the weekend off!).
T (I think I'll keep it, Guest For Now. Ownership and all that.
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Okay, I lied. I had a little personal epiphany (thanks to some of the discussion now taking place), which I'll share a liitle later(this is great, now I'm really thinking and putting puzzle pieces together!).
But first:
Bunny said on another thread:
They've told you a lot of bad things about yourself but none of it's true. They need to shut up and go away. That's my thought and I don't think I'm bad.
Why on earth, Bunny, would you think you're bad for saying that? For sure, we can go toe-to-toe on "healing language concepts" as, well..uh. say..., my version of Sega-Genesis for the Self-Impaired (you are supposed to laugh right now), but the first part of what you said is a good example of "triage (temporary fix)" language, which I don't dispute is useful.
Frankly, I'm surprised. I haven't gotten the feeling so far that you would ever be so seemingly (shoot me if I'm wrong) defensive about such a statement. I just see you as pretty confident about your postiions and not especially needing to defend them, so I'm a liittle...well... am I seeing this right? What does that mean, really? (I just don't understand; it does not jive with what I've seen from you. Not to me, with our limited involvement, anyway).
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In my second year of school, at the age of five, my parents were called in for a 'chat' with the teacher and headmistress. They were told, in front of me, that I was a 'genius'.......... I instantly knew this 'label' was inaccurate but realised how delighted they were. I also knew I could never live up to this falsehood so I never opened a book from that day up until I took my 'A level' equivalents. I also realised that from my mother's point of view, this was the only thing that mattered about me i.e. conditional love.
It took me thirty years before I even tried to fulfill any potential I had. I went to University and graduated in 2001 with a 2:1 in psychology. This was funded by my wonderful husband and they were the most amazing years of my life, mostly through the friends I made.
I always think there are two things in life you should never be big-headed about - these are IQ and physical looks because this is largely genetic.
I am much prouder of qualities such as empathy, compassion and a sense of humour.
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Absolutely agree with you Serena. My formal education took a similar route as yours.
I also know that being well educated doesn't mean that I know it all.
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As you know, I have a university education through my own endeavours. My husband doesn't even have an 'O' level and is a plasterer. Not only does he earn four times what I do, he is also much more intelligent than me.
Give him a broadsheet cryptic crossword and he is a happy man. Ask him any mathematical situation and he can work it out in his head!! I'm lost once I run out of fingers to count on.
Not only is he bright, but he is so emotionally together - it's frightening!! He doesn't have a complicated bone in his body - what you see is what you get. I can't tell you all how refreshing and wonderful these qualities are..............
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Why on earth, Bunny, would you think you're bad for saying that?
I think you misunderstood. I was trying to give the poster permission to have any negative thought she wanted through example. I may have expressed myself clumsily.
bunny
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For sure, we can go toe-to-toe on "healing language concepts" as, well..uh. say..., my version of Sega-Genesis for the Self-Impaired (you are supposed to laugh right now.)
I might laugh if I had any idea of what this meant. I appreciate the humorous feeling anyway. :wink:
bunny
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Bunny:
I guess I'm referencing the way people choose to spend their "free" time. I'm not interested in video games, nor do I think I'll learn a skill that is useful to me, so I don't indulge. Plus I'm older, so pinball is better to me. A silly joke on myself, reslly.
Others:
Your posts relate to my little epiphany, and I was illuminated by the conflict between Portia and I.
I realized after thinking about his experience that I have been in self-kick mode for many, many years and I now understand that I don't need to kick me anynore - it wasn't possible, under the conditions, to do differently than I did. Every choice was a loser.
Those conflicting messages I spoke about:
It's good to be smart.
It's bad to be smart (we'll punish you).
The net effect for me: I've frozen in every classroom situation I've ever been in. The fear of being smart (e.g., succeding) was so intense that I could not move. I would try over and over, but not be able to maintain a forward motion. This is the result of being, as one of you said, subjected to unrealistic expectations (no one called me a genius, ever, just gifted, I assume in the regular somewhat above avarage way). Not in the sense that I was expected to be a genius or smarter than I was, but that I was expected to be smart under certain conditions only, and only if it made mom look good.
If I was smart in the wrong way, in a way that exposed my Mother (I understood something that she didn't, could do what she couldn't, caught her in a lie or a weasel), I was subjected to such intense hostility and denigration that I eventually learned it was better to not be smart at all than risk being in that position. Of course, I felt guilt for not performing, so I would try, try again - but repeatedly freeze and fail miserably. Not by doing the work incorrectly, but being unable to bring myself to do it at all! I only felt worse and worse, never better.
I have to say that my teachers/educators tried everything they could think of - assuming the main problem was that I wasn't challenged, which was also true, but didn't even touch the real problem. I couldn't articulate it to them because I did not understand it as anything but MY hopeless deficiency. I found a good "cheater" system, though, in JHS - I just read textbooks and other books, cutting class and just showing up for exams and Major Projects. I aced those and squeaked out with a D, year afer year.
The system, while a good band-aid, was not enough, really. I eventually just gave up, dropped out and left home at 15. Went to college some, off and on, but the fear and the problems remained. I learned to cope by self-teaching, which worked beautifully because - as Grossman says in his "liitle voice" essay - I didn't WANT anything, other than the learning itself. I had no objective, I learned for pure pleasure. Put an objective on it, though - faggedaboudit. I had to be smart in secret, kind of.
Outside of school, I had friends in legit academia, even some Professors whose classes I dropped, read copiously, had great discussions and debates - that helped me immensely in terms of understanding my capabilities, at least, and also helping me understand that some people would celebrate my smarts (imagine that) and pat me on the back if I made an astute observation or countered an argument accurately and effectively. Fortunately, as an adult, I was able to l to find good, rewarding work despite my lack of credentials, because a few people recognized some ability or another and - well - nurtured me a bit, as much as one adult can do for another. those people remain good friends to this day, althoughI live in another part of the contry now and am self-employed (works for Mom hours).
It never has helped me with the kick-self, though, the relative success I've had. I've just continued to feel deficient all my life, thinking about all that in purely self-directed, self-punishing terms.
After this experience with Portia, however, I got to thinking about it and realized that I really did the best I could. I don't blame me anymore for choosing not to choose. Sure, life would have sure been different, and probably better in some ways, if I had been able to overcome it. But I was little - as in second grade little - when all this started.
I can't blame the child anymore. In fact, I may send her back to school one day, just for the pure pleasure - or maybe so she can just learn to be comfortable with being smart out loud.
Anyway, that's that for the epiphany.
Also, something else - short and sweet:
Sometimes when we disagree, our problems do the fighting for us.
I get a pretty funny mental picture when I think about my husband and I disagreeing in the audience while our "problems" are in the ring dukeing it out.
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You sound like a really nice person. Apart from formal education, I am a naturally curious person and read copiously. I almost believe that's my reason for being i.e. to learn, grow and develop as a person.
Don't be ashamed of being smart, but don't give it too much credence in terms of how you envision yourself.
I am also capable of becoming fascinated with reality TV shows and would never pass a day without reading a trashy 'red top' tabloid line to feed my curiousity for trivia and gossip!!
As I have said before, qualities such as empathy, compassion, kindness and a sense of humour are far, far more important in my book.....
Concentrate on these.
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Thank you, Serena.
To be honest, I never give it any thought unless someone uses it as a weapon - as I noted earlier in the thread, only my mother and her brother have ever used terms like IQ, intelleigence, intellect, smarts or other when trying to point out something to me. And always in the same way Portia did...
No one else ever mentions it, nor do I, independently of this kind of event. If I think of it, it's in the same terms as Mother, Uncle and Portia: "For someone so smart, you sure are stupid...". You know.
The whole beginning and middle of this thread is devoted to "Humanizing your Narcissist as a Means of Humanizing Yourself" and "Language Modification ifn Pursuit of Healing and Re-clamation of I Voice" (or whatever drivelly sort of names you'd like to give those ideas). I think that speaks to compassion. If you want humour, I've really enjoyed thinking about the "Southern Bell Narcissist" in the "Wishing She Were Dead" thread. In general, I think I am a kind person - just naturally and for no particular reason.
Thank you for your comments.
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There is a phenomenon called "attacks on linking." This is when an impaired person (narcissistic, paranoid, borderline, whatever) unconsciously feels threatened by a rational thought process. They are threatened by putting links together and coherently reflecting on something. They prefer impulsive overreactions. Thinking about oneself and others is perceived as highly dangerous. So they destroy the possibility of thinking in themselves and in their children.
Maybe this happened to you. And you're now feeling it's possible to put links together in relative safety. It was probably dangerous to do it earlier.
bunny
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One thing. Everyone does 'attacks on linking' it's not limited to severely dysfunctional people. But people with problems do it more.
bunny
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... only my mother and her brother have ever used terms like IQ, intelleigence, intellect, smarts or other when trying to point out something to me.
This makes me think that you were not really reacting to Portia but instead, you were actually speaking to the people of your past, reacting to them, after all this time, saying it to them??? Might this be possible?
I think many of us do this. Someone says something that rings so close to the junk we've heard in the past, from those who abused us, words that hurt us, and we react by responding to the past event and person/people, rather than the present person/people/situation (who may not be saying anything close to what those people of the past said). We are actually flung back into the past, sometimes, and not aware of it. We associate so much with what has hurt us and if someone triggers those hurts, we sometimes strike back with such full force, we shock even ourselves. We later wonder....why did I react like that?
I've done it. I've seen others do it. How often are we doing this in the real world? Do we even know we're doing it? How can we correctly respond to stuff that triggers our memories like that??
Guest for now
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Me too, Guest for now. I’ve reacted very badly to thinking someone was trying to get me to think in their way, trying to force their opinions on me….like my step-father did…..it was a great learning lesson. It’s quite shocking when it hits you full on, suddenly, when you realise you’re doing that, reacting to the past and not the present.
How to know when we’re doing it for real in non-online life? Listen to the rise in heart-beats, ask if we’re sweating, panicking, shamed – in fact any emotional response. Even lust for someone new! Why? What is happening here that I’m responding like this? How does he/she remind me of my father/mother? Why am I afraid? Why do I feel shamed? Why am I angry?
Trouble is, it takes so much time and thinking, it’s easier not to do this. Thinking is hard work. :roll:
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Bunny and Guest,
Because you are so well versed the many areas of Psychologocal disorders.
Trouble is, it takes so much time and thinking, it’s easier not to do this. Thinking is hard work.
Each of us has these 3 egos. So you could say you had a Knee Jerk reaction in the Child ego state?
1. Your Parent
2. Your Adult
3. Your Child.
So as an adult we react in one of these egos very quickly with no time to stop and think what is appropriate.
We react as we did when we were hurt as a child.
So maybe the reaction is like a Knee Jerk reaction, almost uncontrollable?
I saw this yesterday with my N-Husband. we were watching the Exorcist, My (N-H=6 yr old) was teasing my 12yr old, he said her dolls were going to start turning their heads and just trying to bug her.
Somthing happen and she said he was "evil and his head was going to start to turn full circle."
He got mad and left the room and now he is not talking.
somehow this is all my fault and Im responsible for MY Daughters mouth.
She said she was sorry for the comment, but he would have nothing to do with the appology.
I think I can remember something about his Big N-Mother, calling him evil, this may have sparked the Knee Jerk reaction.
It's going to be a great Day.
I love this stuff just an observation. onlyrenting
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This makes me think that you were not really reacting to Portia but instead, you were actually speaking to the people of your past, reacting to them, after all this time, saying it to them??? Might this be possible?
I think I was acknowledging this when I admitted that it is a hot-button and described how it became such a trigger - and also when I said I had learned something form the conflict. I still, like I said, question the remark and it's real meaning, however (and am still sorry to not be more graceful about it). Just because I'm reacting/over-reacting to past injury or abuse doesn't necessarily make me wrong (or right, either) - which brings me back to the thought about labelers and what they have to lose.
GFN, just asking you the question prompted me to give it more thought. I don't think my own answer was especially well-developed or cohesive when I asked you, so thanks for the opportunity/inspiration to put some flesh on the bones.
I think it's pretty clear that we both think that being labeled is limiting to the labelee. For me, just from a "justice and equality" point of view, it's contrary to those concepts indulge in labeling, and you are also right about "missing out on the good parts of people (to paraphrase)". But I have to think also about what the labeler loses aside from all those things, which are almost strictly philosophical concerns.
I not only think there's more to it than the above, I also think it realtes directly to I Voice.
Let me preface by saying that Voice, in my estimation, is developed in conjuntion with Hearing. Looking at it pragmatically and corporeally, we all notice the speech deficits of the deaf. As a rule, sounds produced by speaking deaf persons are usually reasonable approximations, but are not wholly accurate and can often be difficult for those with little experience communicating with the deaf to understand. The problem is not with the mechanics of voice, but with the limits of hearing -The lack of accurate hearing is what contributes most to the impairment of speech, in this case. (There are many other contributing factors to the impairment of physical voice that are analogous to other parts of the I Voice issue, but that's another peice of the puzzle. Sometimes people are deaf and mechanically mute at the same time, of course).
I think when we label, as I've said before, we confine others (and often ourselves) to very narrow definitions. So - if we have labeled someone as an N, or a Borderline, or an A**hole - or even a sweet person or a saint or an innocent victim, we can easily overlook the true depth of what we can gain by trying to really hear what is accurate or not in the content of their speech.
In a nutshell, just because a person is a Narcisssist, a Borderline, or an A**hole does not mean that everything they say is wrong. Sometimes, even at their most hurtful, they are as capable as anyone else of being truthful and right - even in their oberservations about us. Conversely, sweet, saintly, innocent victims, narrowly defined in the situation, can be just as wrong as they can be right. The difference is that their "wrongness" usually causes them to hurt themselves, often through lack of accurate hearing - although that can also lead them to hurt others, too.
I think labels promote deafness, in a way. It makes it easy to dismiss underlying truth and nuance in favor of superficial approximations.
If your favorite "N" says something about your character that hurts or makes you angry, it is easy, if you have been applying the label for a long time, to dismiss anything said by thinking, even sub-consciously, "Well, S/He's just an "N" and trying to hurt me, because that's what "N"s do. They never say anything of value because of this, so I'm not going to listen." This is the same sort of dismissiveness reflected in the statments about co-dependents. In effect, those statements say "Co-dependents have nothing to offer but dysfuntion. They're just a soul-sucking drain on anyone who gets involved with them, nothing more".
Sometimes, my husband is right, even if he's a complete SOB when he says it. Sometimes even my mother is right, even as she's in banshee mode or manipulating or lying about other things. It can gall the hell out of me to admit it, but that does not change a thing. When they're right, they're right. Just because they've hurt me doesn't mean "I'm never wrong, ergo, they are never right".
With that as a given, I cannot ask them to examine my feedback/themselves if I am not willing to examine theirs/myself...and I also can't prove myself right if I have not done so, even if I feel sure that I am. I Voice is just as much about ownership of what is wrong, mistaken or lacking in us as it is about ownership of our needs, desires, rights and assets.
So - while I agree with Bunny that one can be pretty darn sure what they're dealing with without the professional diagnosis (although I'm sticking with my technical argument - agree to disagree?), and it can be really helpful to understand Narcissism or other disorders so one can make the best of the situation, I think habitual labeling limits not just the labelee, but us as well...by making us deaf to sometimes painful but important and helpful truths, surrounded as they may be by fog, evasion, distortions and even lies.
If we operate under the "Now We Are Six" assumption of Narcissism, that means we're missing out on some of the classic astute honesty that has become a maxim in our culture: "From the Mouths of Babes".
Thanks for the discussion. It is truly inspiring!
T
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In support of the above postulation, I reference the Vaknin quote that bludie posted in the "revenge" thread, with some of my own insertions (in italics and parentheses)
The affected entertain the (false) notion that they can compartmentalize their (labeling) narcissistic behavior and direct it only at the narcissist. In other words, they trust in their ability to segregate their conduct and to be (close-minded/labeling) verbally abusive towards the narcissist while (open-minded) civil and compassionate with others, to act with malice where the narcissist is concerned and with Christian charity towards all others.
They cling to the "faucet theory". They believe that they can turn on and off their (close-mindedness) negative feelings, their abusive outbursts, their vindictiveness and vengefulness, their blind rage, (and) their non-discriminating judgment. This, of course, is untrue. These behaviors spill over into daily transactions with innocent neighbors, colleagues, family members, co-workers, or customers.
One cannot be partly or temporarily (close-minded) vindictive and judgmental any more than one can be partly or temporarily pregnant. To their horror, these victims discover that they have been transmuted and transformed into their worst nightmare: into a narcissist.
They find out the hard way that narcissism is contagious and many victims tend to become narcissists themselves: malevolent, vicious, lacking empathy, egotistical, exploitative, violent and abusive
While I still believe that Vaknin promotes this very conundrum in many of his other passages, I do maintain my earlier comment that the truth is at the root of many distortions. In other words, even Vaknin can be right about some things while he distorts and exaggreates others.
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Guest said
dismissiveness reflected in the statments about co-dependents. In effect, those statements say "Co-dependents have nothing to offer but dysfuntion. They're just a soul-sucking drain on anyone who gets involved with them, nothing more".
I understand you to say, some of us have our own problems too.
Not to be to quick to view others without looking at who we are too.
Maybe we choose to work on our problems to be better humans.
We can all make mistakes and we should not put all of our trust in humans. We all have something not Perfect about us.
If we can learn from eachother no matter what disorder we have that would be great.
as I see some of my problem may exist under the Co-dependent group.
I know some but not all are my weakness.
We can all fit under some group, It's knowing the truth about who you are and moving forward from there, no guilt just grow with your new found knowlege so you can be happy.
Thats all anyone wants to be happy, healthy, and maybe wiser so you can help others going along the same path.
Maybe putting lables doesn't give you the whole truth about a situation.
Like the referance to the deaf group.
Even the deaf want to search for the truth. They do the best they can with what they see and touch they can communicate with a look or being more physical because the words are just not there to get the point accross. Maybe your deaf and tapping you to turn around is the only way to get your attention.
Maybe you keep your head down because you look like you hear and someone might discover you are impaired.
Life needs to be dealt with how ever you come to realize even with fractured ideas of what you think you learn or know is not the whole story. something needs to change in your life and you do the best with who you are to achieve it.
I need to leave now Onlyrenting
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Thanks, renting, for taking the time to read and add.
You have some really really good thoughts and I appreciate "hearing" you. And yes, you heard me right - especially the part about learning from others no matter the disorder.
I guess I could state that maybe better (thanks to you) as: learning from the person, of whom the disorder is but one part of a complex whole.
T
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Sometimes, my husband is right, even if he's a complete SOB when he says it. Sometimes even my mother is right, even as she's in banshee mode or manipulating or lying about other things. It can gall the hell out of me to admit it, but that does not change a thing. When they're right, they're right. Just because they've hurt me doesn't mean "I'm never wrong, ergo, they are never right".
Is it the case that one is always either right or wrong?
If one isn't right or wrong, what state is that? Is it 'undecided' until there is further evidence?
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Is it the case that one is always either right or wrong?
If one isn't right or wrong, what state is that? Is it 'undecided' until there is further evidence?
1: Of course not. Some issues do not have a right or wrong, only a choice of action. I further think people can be simultaneously right and wrong (read: in error), especially when they are quick to label and assume.
2: Undecided sounds good to me in the case of forming a belief, In A Position To Choose in the case of determining a course of action.
3. Unequivocally YES, if you still doubt a decison/belief one way or another after thorough examination of existing evidence. However, in some situations you just have to choose the best you can without an ideal amount of evidence, depending on the urgency of the situation.
The application of this and anything other "lint I podner" can only be determined by the individual reader. I assume that not every insight is useful under all conditions. Even accepted truths like "the sky is blue" can fall apart if subjected to relentless scientific scrutiny (we see blue because of the slant of light and atmospheric conditions - putting it simply so I don't have to look it up - but all the colors are there, in reality).
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I saw this yesterday with my N-Husband. we were watching the Exorcist, My (N-H=6 yr old) was teasing my 12yr old, he said her dolls were going to start turning their heads and just trying to bug her.
Somthing happen and she said he was "evil and his head was going to start to turn full circle."
He got mad and left the room and now he is not talking.
somehow this is all my fault and Im responsible for MY Daughters mouth.
She said she was sorry for the comment, but he would have nothing to do with the appology.
I think I can remember something about his Big N-Mother, calling him evil, this may have sparked the Knee Jerk reaction.
It's going to be a great Day.
Your daughter got irritated with him and lashed out. HE can provoke people and according to him, they just have to take it. No one is supposed to provoke him back. And he won't accept an apology, making it impossible to deal with him.
Bottom line, I hope to heaven you can move away from this jerk.
bunny
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Personally, I'm having difficulty understanding what the 12 year old had to apologize for. It sounded like a real possibility to me.
Iamane
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About labeling, here are some of my thoughts...
I don't believe that people dismiss what their abusers tell them. Even if they have labeled the person an "N" or "evil." They are hearing every word as though through intense magnification. If the N-label helps people to protect themselves, I'm for it.
I think that if N's are saying stuff about me that is accurate, so what. Narcissistic people can be dead-on accurate. They know what buttons to push. And they can't be inaccurate or it won't work. So I'm not here to "learn" from them except to learn about dysfunction and how it looks so I can strategize around it. I don't see them as a great source of teaching.
bunny
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So I'm not here to "learn" from them except to learn about dysfunction and how it looks so I can strategize around it.
bunny
Are you strategizing around your dysfunctions??? so they aren't obvious to others? If so, this is a common form of self-deception - camouflage - but unfortunately it won't repair or improve your dysfunctions.
Iamane
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I am strategizing around others' dysfunctions.
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Guest:
You have some really really good thoughts and I appreciate "hearing" you. And yes, you heard me right - especially the part about learning from others no matter the disorder.
Thank you for pointing out about the good thoughts.
I will be more open minded and not judge to quickly.
Iamane
Personally, I'm having difficulty understanding what the 12 year old had to apologize for. It sounded like a real possibility to me.
I had to laugh here.
I want my daughter to be respectful, I don't want her to be unaware of hurt. Is this my co-dependant self talking? even when others are not doing the right thing you should. We did all we can do to make the offer
with a sorry and if he rejects the offer then so be it.
Bunny,
I am strategizing around others' dysfunctions
I think this rings true. Not so much as learning to be like someone, but to stratgize. Sometimes it's like a chess game. With the N-H, he is so often out of touch with his surroundings, I can jump into check mate without him knowing what took place.
The N-H was to go get some blood test and his body brace and had a doctors appointment. He was so upset he stayed in bed all day.
My daughter and I have been out running around, came home and he was sulking in bed all day.
onone was home so he was likley up dancing around and jumped in bed when we walked in the door.
He said he was just going to let himself lay in bed and hope the blood clot breaks and he dies. I said he was acting like a baby.
When he didnt get more of a reaction from me, he came in and said his back problems were all my fault. He worked so hard and hurt himself.
I just kept typing this note to you all and ignoring him. He went away.
onlyrenting
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If the N-label helps people to protect themselves, I'm for it.
Protect? How does name-calling (which is in essence what labelling is) protect a person? Haven't we all had enough name-calling in our pasts?
I think using N-labels in posts has some uses (some of which have already been mentioned).
a) sure cuts down on typing the big N word
b) helps readers to empathize with the poster by immediately identifying the similar behaviours generally understood to be N and the fact that the poster most likely has had similar experiences (at least in some ways) as the reader, therefore the reader has some immediate understanding.
c) helps the poster release pent up emotion by name-calling back (even if it is never heard by the abuser). (Even if it is juvenile to do so).
d) labels help us to gain an instant bond with eachother (we've all had experiences with people who behave in N ways), therefore they help to unite us in some ways.
On the other hand, I agree that some are very quick to label people as N, as even in this thread there is an N-insinuation toward T (the originator of this thread). On what basis? On words typed on a screen? Without ever knowing T or T's actual behaviour in real life? Without first ascertaining the real intention and meaning of T's words? Without real evaluation?
My guess is the labels are so quickly given because of association. Association with our past, with expressions we've heard in the past, by our abusers, which cause us to react. Because of what we have experienced with those who have hurt us, we now label, very quickly, anyone who "sounds" like our abusers, who uses similar expressions as our abusers, or who refers to any of our "buttons", even if that reference is done without knowing.
Labels are good to help us catagorize a certain behaviour type.
Labels are not so good if they are placed without proper consideration or unfairly. IMO.
Even accepted truths like "the sky is blue" can fall apart if subjected to relentless scientific scrutiny...
Absolutely!! (heehee). Reminds me of practically one of the only scientific phrases that somehow sunk into my brain:
"Nothing........is impermiable".
Should have ended with......"or absolute".
GFN
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I am strategizing around others' dysfunctions.
I won't ask whose and why, although I am interested. Obviously you are talking about people in your life who you are close to. I wonder if life-relationships can ever truly be enjoyed by anyone living like this? Having to live and relate in such a contrived manner.
Here you are strategizing around their actual or perceived disorders and there they are probably strategizing around your actual or perceived disorders.
I wonder if people can ever connect as real and open and eventually get somewhere together and wortwhile with this strategy, or do they just intend to continue relating for the purpose of trying to out-manouvre and out-smart each other. Get the upper-hand so-to-speak. Unfortunately someone always has to lose in that game.
Iamane
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Labeling isn't always the equivalent of name calling. If someone protects their psyche by labeling an abuser a "Narcissist" that is fine with me.
bunny
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I won't ask whose and why, although I am interested. Obviously you are talking about people in your life who you are close to. I wonder if life-relationships can ever truly be enjoyed by anyone living like this? Having to live and relate in such a contrived manner.
I'm enjoying life a lot more by doing this. For me there is no contrivance. It's just a way of dealing with what life throws at me.
Here you are strategizing around their actual or perceived disorders and there they are probably strategizing around your actual or perceived disorders.
If they're strategizing around me, that is great. I hope they do.
I wonder if people can ever connect as real and open and eventually get somewhere together and wortwhile with this strategy, or do they just intend to continue relating for the purpose of trying to out-manouvre and out-smart each other. Get the upper-hand so-to-speak. Unfortunately someone always has to lose in that game.
I'm not trying to out-anything. I'm just trying to deal with people who are difficult.
bunny
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Clarification,
I am saying that if a person labels their abuser a narcissist that is okay with me. Not if they label another poster a narcissist. That is not something I advocate.
bunny
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"Nothing........is impermiable".
Should have ended with......"or absolute".
GFN
Brillaint, brilliant. 'Nuff said.
Labels are good to help us catagorize a certain behaviour type.
Labels are not so good if they are placed without proper consideration or unfairly. IMO. GFN also.
Oh, you just plain rock, GFN.
Onlyrenting:
NO ONE should ever be allowed to dismiss or minimize you because you suffer the symptoms of co-dependency. You may be handicapped in your interaction because of those symptoms, but that in no way minimizes your good intentions in your attempts to create bonds with others. Sometimes you are sucessful and sometimes not - I think the content (and, I admit, stubborness) of my essay-sish posts are an attempt to highlight the deep-down motive and need of the narcissists we know (they are human - not evil; they are not, in our adult lives, more powerful than we are unless we submit willingly) as being the SAME as the deep-down motives of the rest of us - to be joined with others, to love and be loved, to be heard. The narcissist, just like us, has not been heard. We just express our confusion, disappointment and terror differently. If we are able to do so with greater sophistication, we should consider ourselves lucky...and realize that those others-more-impaired, in any category, took a bullet that we were fortuante enough to avoid.
This forgives no one and nothing for deeds done and undone. However, in understanding their humanity, you can see clearly the limtis of their power, if nothing else. To see them as the human, fragile and deeply terrified individuals that they are allows you to more accurately estimate your own strength - which may be greater than you think. The truth of that power balance lies in the clearing of prejudice and paranoia from your own mind.
For those who suufer from NPD, Borderline, Co-Dependency, or just plain shyness, heartache and confusion, it is a hard road. At the bottom of the well, no matter who you are, it is a dark and lonely and scary place.
I will never advocate that anyone remain in a relationship with another human being who harms or persecutes them to an unreasonable extent (we all do it to each other some), nor would I ever advocate that anyone forgo a rational conclusion that helps them undertand what they're dealing with. However, I think it is the best interest of all people to work toward an abdication of definitive labeling, on the personal level (even if they don't give it up as a convenience short-hand) if only so they may understand themselves as discrete and complex individuals.
If someone protects their psyche by labeling an abuser a "Narcissist" that is fine with me.
To me, unworkable on many levels. Maybe band-aid triage, but not in advancement of true healing.
I think we should be able to protect ourselve in a more well-rounded and self-specific way than labeling anyone, even an abuser, an "N" or anything else. I think we are NOT protecting ourselves very effectively if we compartmentalize all abusers into "n" category, if only because all abusers are different. Some are Narcissists, some are not. If all you are lookning for is the "N" profile, you could very well miss the next abuser coming your way. Also, some narcisissists have a great deal of insight into self and others - and try hard, if clumsily, to make all the pieces of the human puzzle fit together. Should we try less hard than Narcissists with a clue?
Not if they label another poster a narcissist. That is not something I advocate.
]
Why not? Not that I believe I am a narcissist, but how does anyone know how many posters here are not, in fact, either overt or "stealth" narcissists? Being a "victim" is certainly a fine way to get a liitle "supply", if we want to get into a little jargoning (another kind of label).
Don't worry about my feelings, I come from a complex web of Narcissists, so I know how to handle a little bit of name-calling. 'Sokay, so long as no one pulls a knife or tries to scratch my eyes out.
But really, why is the sauce not good for both goose and gander? And how, if labels rather than individual personalities define everything for you, do you know the difference between individuals? Are there only two groups of people in the world: Ns and Victims?
Iamane:
Thanks for joining in. I applaud your cojones, which I lack but am cultivating slowly. I'm enjoying your input.
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I won't ask whose and why, although I am interested. Obviously you are talking about people in your life who you are close to. I wonder if life-relationships can ever truly be enjoyed by anyone living like this? Having to live and relate in such a contrived manner.
I'm enjoying life a lot more by doing this. For me there is no contrivance. It's just a way of dealing with what life throws at me.
Fair enough and good to hear that this technique is allowing you to enjoy your life more. What I was talking about though was life-relationships. Like those we have with partners or parents or friends. I was wondering about the possible quality of such life-relationships when such a extreme guard and position is believed to be needed and is then maintained by one or both parties. Especially when they suspect the other of n'ness or some other disorder. Somehow to me it seems like a very mechanical way to relate, and actually appears devoid of things real and human like spontaneity and compassion and understanding and emotional connection. And so, if this technique requires this of us, that we lose our human-ness, then in one sense we've become like the thing we hate.
Iamane
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I think we should be able to protect ourselve in a more well-rounded and self-specific way than labeling anyone, even an abuser, an "N" or anything else. I think we are NOT protecting ourselves very effectively if we compartmentalize all abusers into "n" category, if only because all abusers are different. Some are Narcissists, some are not. If all you are lookning for is the "N" profile, you could very well miss the next abuser coming your way.
You may very well miss the human in the abuser if you’re specifically looking for abusers, Ns or otherwise.
Who decides who is an abuser? Are all abusers also victims too?
‘Person’ seems a good label. What labels do you apply to yourself T?
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I applaud your cojones, which I lack but am cultivating slowly.
T - why do think Iamane has "balls"? What does this mean to you?
and why do you think you lack them? and how are you cultivating them?
luego dude
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Good morning all:
To see them as the human, fragile and deeply terrified individuals that they are allows you to more accurately estimate your own strength - which may be greater than you think.
I think you've really hit the nail with this statement. I truly believe my abusers, in childhood, were exactly as you say: "human, fragile and deeply terrified". I don't know that I ever put it into words, as you have so well here, but I do think that I did come to realize this in them and this was the beginning of my being able to forgive them for their atrocious behaviour. I really think the key to my feeling calm and happy inside.. is to not just release my anger but find a way to prevent it from reforming. Until I actually forgave my abusers, that anger I felt toward them would reform every time I thought about them. Once I was able to see them as you describe, it helped me to feel empathy for them....and finally, rid my feelings of anger and resentment. Now when I think of them, I feel sorry for them and as you put it...lucky to have dodged a bullet.
You have helped me recognize this necessity and realize that I must apply this same understanding to my more current abuser, in order to get to the same point in my own comfort. I must try to see the human, fragile and deeply terrified person who has hurt me so deeply. I must try to have empathy for my own sake, not my abuser's sake. Once I am able to really feel for my abuser, there will be no anger generated in me and I will be free of resentment. I know that level of comfort and that is really what I am seeking now.
This knowledge that I can achieve that level of comfort is powerful and indeed gives me strength I didn't think I had.
Thankyou T.
GFN
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Guest
willingly) as being the SAME as the deep-down motives of the rest of us - to be joined with others, to love and be loved, to be heard. The narcissist, just like us, has not been heard. We just express our confusion, disappointment and terror differently. If we are able to do so with greater sophistication, we should consider ourselves lucky...
I will be happy when I achieve Balance, and excellance in my life.
This is not to be perfect.
sometime like a bad smell in the frige, I would like to find it and get rid of it. I express my confusion What the Hell is that smell and it may even be a terrifying smell, I want it out.
maybe a box of baking soda will do for awhile, However the Person that is causing the smell is still there.
We all need Balance and when the bad smell takes over the whole frige,
Im disappointed. When the baking soda fades, I guess for now I buy a bigger box until I figure whos smell is really the worse before I throw out the whole frige.
onlyrenting ....got to go
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I must try to see the human, fragile and deeply terrified person who has hurt me so deeply. I must try to have empathy for my own sake, not my abuser's sake.
(((GFN))) yes, empathy for your own sake, not anyone else's.
Does your 'abuser' intend to abuse you do you think? Would she (or he) see it like that? Maybe that person is, in their terms, protecting their fragile self?
Is your abuser an abuser? Or just another flawed person?
luego dude
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To me, unworkable on many levels. Maybe band-aid triage, but not in advancement of true healing.
I am into bandaid triages. I'm thinking that after a year or more of motivated work on themselves, then a person is better and won't put up with a lot of crap (hopefully). And I'm not about true healing whatever that is. I believe in people getting more functional than they now are. That's it.
I don't see a lot of compartmentalizing. In fact, I think people need to learn better how to compartmentalize. One of the main obstacles to self-protection is weak boundaries.
Basically our observations are different.
I don't advocate calling another poster a narcissist because that makes this group unsafe and ugly. I have pointed out posts I thought were "trolls" but that is different. A "troll" poster is only on the group to cause trouble and destroy it. And if you're not into labeling, why would you want posters to call each other a narcissist. Makes no sense to me unless you were being facetious.
bunny
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Thankyou for the hug, Leugo Dude. Those are all good questions.
Does your 'abuser' intend to abuse you do you think
?
Yes, I think there was clear intention and actually, stated intention.
Would she (or he) see it like that?
As abuse? Definately not. My abuser was acting to one-up me, to look good in the eyes of others, and to take advantage of me, while I was in a vunerable state, but my abuser proclaims to have acted for purely good reasons and to benefit others and I don't believe the person would see their behaviour as abusive.
Maybe that person is, in their terms, protecting their fragile self?
Could be. Could be not even aware of doing that. Could be in denial about feeling the need to "one-up me", look better than me, kick me while I'm down. Probably unaware of all that and probably needing to do that because of feeling somehow......less....than me or possibly.....not as good?
Is your abuser an abuser? Or just another flawed person?
I think my abuser is an abuser.....to me because I felt abused but can I actually label my abuser as an abuser, who abuses others as he/she has done to me? (Thinking this out and just trying to answer honestly here). Yes, he/she has a habit of behaving in abusive ways towards others. Does that give me the right to label the person as an abuser?
Maybe not.
More likely, just another flawed person. Definately a person who has sustained abuse and been taught to behave in nasty ways. Also a person who has been "spoiled" silly and always got what was desired, when the abuse was in remission. Aren't these are said to be the building blocks of N?
Thinking about this does help.
GFN
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Fair enough and good to hear that this technique is allowing you to enjoy your life more. What I was talking about though was life-relationships. Like those we have with partners or parents or friends. I was wondering about the possible quality of such life-relationships when such a extreme guard and position is believed to be needed and is then maintained by one or both parties. Especially when they suspect the other of n'ness or some other disorder. Somehow to me it seems like a very mechanical way to relate, and actually appears devoid of things real and human like spontaneity and compassion and understanding and emotional connection. And so, if this technique requires this of us, that we lose our human-ness, then in one sense we've become like the thing we hate.
You make a lot of assumptions that I have these mechanical, fake relationships with my family and friends, where I'm guarded and wary. Not the case. I just make adaptations to get along with people. They actually appreciate it. Maybe that's why a lot of people are fond of me. I'm a down-to-earth real person believe it or not. In the case of a very difficult individual (possibly a narcissist, borderline, paranoid, etc.), I will observe and make certain adaptations. I don't see what the big problem is. And yes, my life is easier. You were talking to me about my life. That's the only life I'm living.
bunny
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I'm going to (for the moment) separate abusers into those who abuse children and those who abuse adults.
If an adult abuses a child because they were once a victim, they are not very functional, and have to protect a fragile self, it's only an explanation. It doesn't make it okay. It doesn't make it justifiable. There is no justification, ever, for abusing a child. Period. When the child grows up, s/he has to adapt to this former abuser who may still be abusing. For many reasons, the adult child may continue to tolerate a lot of abuse from this individual. There are many ways to deal with it, my main idea is therapy with a really good therapist.
If an adult abuses another adult. There is still no justification, even if the person is protecting a fragile self. The main difference is that another adult isn't as helpless and can take some actions to protect themselves. For many reasons, they may not feel able to do so.
bunny
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GFN,
Going back to Once I am able to really feel for my abuser, there will be no anger generated in me and I will be free of resentment.
This may be true. How then do you really get to feel for your abuser? By getting to understand why they do what they do? If we mix that with -
Definately a person who has sustained abuse and been taught to behave in nasty ways. Also a person who has been "spoiled" silly and always got what was desired, when the abuse was in remission.
So we have an abuser who was themselves abused (is there ever an abuser who wasn’t themselves abused?) and taught to behave in nasty ways. And also they were spoiled silly. This sounds a very confusing situation. How can someone overcome such contradictory treatment? How can they ever learn to trust anyone? How much hurt must be built up inside them.
I wonder if that person would agree with you about being spoiled? What I mean is, would they see it differently to you? What I might see as being spoiled, they might see as being ‘bought off’ i.e. being given things in place of love and attention. A child knows the shallowness of being spoiled. Sometimes too being abused and then subsequently spoiled is a form of blackmail. “If you put up with the abuse, you also get spoiled. So keep your mouth shut and don’t complain.”
However the person perceives what happens to them, it all sounds very sad and complicated. Understanding how the person themselves perceived those events may be your key to losing any anger and resentment. Trying to see it through their eyes, without being clouded by your own eyes. Very difficult to do.
luego dude
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Bunny, don’t know if your post above re: abusers was in response to me or just general, but want to say I’m not dealing in justification here. Understanding a motivation, being able to explain an action, is not justification, never. Practising understanding doesn't hurt people, I think. Just stating my view.
Luego dude
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Luego dude,
I am all for understanding. I think understanding an abusive person is an extremely good idea. I'm also interested in how to deal with these people, after understanding them.
bunny
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Luego Dude wrote regarding the abused child:
However the person perceives what happens to them, it all sounds very sad and complicated. Understanding how the person themselves perceived those events may be your key to losing any anger and resentment. Trying to see it through their eyes, without being clouded by your own eyes. Very difficult to do.
Thanks Luego Dude. I think what you say makes a lot of sense. Not easy, but possible (considering, I think that's what I did in regard to those who abused me in childhood.....tried to see through their eyes and maybe came fairly close).
The thing I think Bunny is saying is something I need to know too because my more current "abuser" continues to work the magic. So I too need to know how to deal with present abuses, without letting it all build up into more anger and resentment. Then again, maybe the answer is the same thing....gain empathy and understanding for that person and it is easier to deal with their behaviour??? Know that they are:
"human, fragile and deeply terrified" as T put it. Understand that because of these things, they seem "stuck" in a vicious circle of negative behaviour, that they might hate themselves more than anyone else ever could, and that inside they might be very sad and confused. Understandable, definately. But to feel.......like them and really put oneself in their shoes and try to imagine what really goes on in their head, in their heart......not so easy. A good goal. I need a good wind to blow away the clouds.
GFN
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Labeling is a secondary defence mechanism and very often flawed. In the context of other human beings it so often relies heavily on fragmented and limited information. Ditto for compartmentalizing of another human being.
Compartmentalizing and labeling of another human being also relies heavily on the process of depersonalization.
Whether it be towards yourself or another person, depersonalization isn't something to be enouraged. Quite the opposite.
Iamane
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GFN, may I ask, what do you mean by “continues to work the magic”? I have an idea of what you mean, but I may be wrong and it might be a ‘clue’ as to how you react to this person. How you react to this person now is what’s important.
About your childhood. Identifying with our abusers in childhood is a recognised way of coping at the time, a defence. Identifying with them, seeing things through their eyes, is one way we ensure our mental survival when we can’t cope with what’s happening to us. Understanding this concept intellectually is one thing, but changing these ideas in us as adults, going through a mental/emotional change and rejecting this – empathy? - with our abusers, that’s like a gear-shift in the head/heart.
Our childhood identification with our abusers is not useful to us as adults. This childhood view needs overhauling in our adult brains. We don’t need to keep the defences from our childhood. The type of empathy an abused child experiences for their abusers, is not the same thing as the empathy we can attempt as adults.
To become healthier, we need to review those childhood situations and decide if our defences were appropriate. Seeing things through our childhood abusers’ eyes – and retaining that view as adults – is dangerous to us. Your abusers may have been sick, sad and complex people. However, this doesn’t excuse the abuse visited on you, a child. They were cruel to hurt you. To deal with the present, we need to deal with the past first.
Can I ask how the hurt in your childhood compares to the hurt from the person abusing you today?
‘Common sense’ might say that the childhood hurt is much stronger and deeper than hurt received from an adult today. But it may not be, the feelings may be connected. How do the feelings compare?
Luego
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Hi everyone,
Luego Dude asked:
GFN, may I ask, what do you mean by “continues to work the magic”?
I think I was being sarcastic and taking a swipe at my "abuser" at the same time here. What this person does is hurt me and look good while doing so, like magic. As if the hurtful behaviour never happened, a real magic trick. This is typical N behaviour, right? To be able to do one thing but appear to the rest of the world to be doing something else. It is a bit like magic, isn't it? Nmagic.
...it might be a ‘clue’ as to how you react to this person. How you react to this person now is what’s important.
Yes, I see. By thinking like this, as if the person is doing something magical, I am giving away the power. I can choose NOT to react this way, if I decide to, can't I? Maybe a lot of it is habit? I mean, the person does something. I immediately feel hurt by their actions. Other's tell me what a great caring, wonderful person this person is. I feel like I want to ring the person's kneck. I think of the person as having some great power of illusion and that others fall for it (which is understandable because it's true, no person is totally nasty, so this person does nice things as well as cruel, hurtful things....but only the cruel things to me).
Somewhere in there, you're right. I gotta find a way to somehow react differently. I'm not sure how.
To become healthier, we need to review those childhood situations and decide if our defences were appropriate.
I feel at peace, when I think of my parents. I have absolutely no desire to review the past and see if my defences were appropriate, again. I think I've already done that, years ago, and I came to the conclusion that many of my defences were good and I continue to use them. I agree that doing so helped me to realize that I had some healthy ways of coping.
I wrote a lot of things down to get my feelings out, as a child. I pounded my bed with my fists when I was really upset, or I went to the piano and pounded out some pretty expressive music. I spoke about what was happening with my friends and got support from them. I prayed a lot. There are many things that I was lucky enough to somehow think of to do to help myself survive and they were appropriate.
Your abusers may have been sick, sad and complex people. However, this doesn’t excuse the abuse visited on you, a child. They were cruel to hurt you. To deal with the present, we need to deal with the past first.
Not for a moment have I ever excused their behaviour but I have forgiven them for my own sake. In order to reach that point of being able to forgive, I had to empathize as closely as I could with them. But when I think of what you're saying and apply it to the present.....yes, the person abusing me now is sick, sad and complex and there is no excuse for the abuse the person is visiting on me. This person has been very cruel and has hurt me deeply. So, the hurt of the present is emotionally very similar to the hurt of the past.
‘Common sense’ might say that the childhood hurt is much stronger and deeper than hurt received from an adult today. But it may not be, the feelings may be connected. How do the feelings compare
?
How can one measure hurt? The feelings are very similar. I feel abandoned, betrayed and despised. I feel a great anger and despair overall. I feel guilt because I know the person was also "abused" and so it seems unfair of me to cast blame on this present day person totally. My feeling as a child was that it was unfair to have to live the life I had to live. I think, as an adult, I try really hard to be fair with others and I think it is a good way to be. I feel confused because my mind tells me one thing but my heart says something else. I think it is unfair to have to tolerate the abuse my present day "abuser" dishes out and I feel cheated by this person but at the same time I know the person is sick. I feel like I am mourning a great loss because this person and I were close, I thought. I feel ripped off and tricked because it is obvious now that I was wrong in thinking that. I feel worthless to that person, like a disposable object and that hurts. I still care about this person. I am afraid of what this person is capable of doing to cause me more harm, which compares greatly to the fear I had as a child of being harmed by my abusers then. My fear is real because this present day person does indeed have the power to cause me great and further harm and I have to be careful not to allow such opportunity. So, in the end, I feel it is unfair to have to live the life I am now living and so.......angry, hurt, cheated, trapped, etc are feelings that come to the surface right now. I'm sure I've left out plenty.
Thankyou for reading and taking the time to ask questions etc. I appreciate it very much. Do you have similar feelings about your situation? Are you dealing with a present day person who behaves like an N?
GFN
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Labeling is a secondary defence mechanism and very often flawed. In the context of other human beings it so often relies heavily on fragmented and limited information. Ditto for compartmentalizing of another human being.
I don't know how you compartmentalize another human being. I'm talking about compartmentalizing within oneself, so that emotions don't take over when you're trying to function at an adult level.
Compartmentalizing and labeling of another human being also relies heavily on the process of depersonalization.
If you think I 'depersonalize' others you are mistaken and haven't been understanding me at all.
bunny
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Luego & GFN,
Here's how I view a past or abusive person.
It comes from a theory called 'object relations,' which is about considering a person's internal psychic structure. Obviously we can't see an internal psychic structure so it's based on the person's behavior which reflects it.
It's also about projections which is how we observe and even feel psychic structures in other people. This is a way of empathizing with others (understanding their structure) without having to get very emotional about it and feel a lot of positive feelings toward them. It's more of a detached way of dealing with what are usually heavy-duty reactions.
Let's say a person is working some magical deal where they are being subtly manipulative and only one person feels abused and sees the creepiness. First, possibly more than one person sees the creepiness but I'll put that aside. Second, if only one person feels manipulated and rejected, there is probably a projection directed at that person, or else that person is the most susceptible to it (or both). Abusive people are (as luego dude points out) extremely fragile individuals, often operating at an infantile level of emotional defenses, and their projections are very powerful. This is because they don't process their 'stuff' themselves, they project it into any container available. That's how they survive the anxiety and terror.
How to deal with projections coming at you? The main way for me is to ID that it is mostly a projection (my own feelings will be mixed into it) and that I'm not going to process it for the person. I will let them do it. Then I decide how to give them back the projection in the most neutral way. Usually by hardly reacting at all, except by saying, "Oh." or "Hmmm." The quickest way to deflect a projection is to react very little. The person may well send a stronger projection my way to get the hoped-for reaction so I have to deflect that as well. The person may make me feel guilty (and I will!) for not processing the projection. They may get angry. They may get depressed. However, I think it helps both of us if I don't continue to process the emotions for them. I may steer them to therapy where they can get the appropriate containment. Or I just hope they find a better container than me, because I have chosen not to do it.
There are times when one will 'volunteer' to take in a projection and that's a thought-out decision. BTW therapists are trained to contain projections until we can process them which is why seeing a *good* therapist is essential. The inept therapists can't or won't contain them and you feel awful.
bunny
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This, Portia, is what I wanted: A real dialogue (poly-logue?) not just about band-aid self protections, but deep principles of human rlationships, self-perception and language. Here it is!! Everyone thinking, learning, debating.
There are so many good, astute comments, challenges and thoughts flying around. I'm going to kick back a little, watch and learn for a bit.
In the interim, Luego Dude's questions to me are simple enough to answer, so I will:
Quote:
I think we should be able to protect ourselve in a more well-rounded and self-specific way than labeling anyone, even an abuser, an "N" or anything else. I think we are NOT protecting ourselves very effectively if we compartmentalize all abusers into "n" category, if only because all abusers are different. Some are Narcissists, some are not. If all you are lookning for is the "N" profile, you could very well miss the next abuser coming your way.
Who decides who is an abuser? Are all abusers also victims too?
‘Person’ seems a good label. What labels do you apply to yourself T?
My comments about abusers were in response to a question/comment specifically addressing abusers as such. In general, throughout this thread, my posts have been clearly in support of abdication of labels for the sake of the labeler - more globally, using moderation of language to manage/control/avoid internal stress and negative feelings/self-perception. I think labeling others implicity gives us an unspoken de-facto label, so if we use compartmentalizing language toward others, we are silently applying the opposite label to ourselves, which in the cased of "victim" and " abused" may distract us from our true power. If you read back through my earlier posts this is outlined in greater detail (it wad only recently that I became "T" - previously, I was just guest who took a lot of heat for my postions).
Seeker, thinker, writer, partner, mom, musician, nature-lover, smoker, red wine-drinker, and more. I try to focus on these labels for myself, though on a dark day the words may be less corporeally descriptive and more personally condemning. I'm trying to do what I've advertised here and use language to change/moderate my thinking so I can dispense with all that as much as possible. It's a process.
In a related comment elsewhere in this thread, you inquired abouth whether an abuser should be better considerd a flawed person. Yes - and no. Primarily, an abuser is a flawed person - this describes the person in noun terms - what they are. An abuser is someone, in my definition, who has regularly behaved abusively toward another in one form another, while having litle awareness and/or conscience about their actions. Basically, that's the verb description - describing the action. In any event, I don't use the term often to describe a person, unless it is in direct response to something already presented in that context. I like words like Ex, Mother, Husband, etc..., without "N" or Abuser attached. I feel that refraining from using those terms does not compromise the reality of their behavior, but I would rather define them simply as people rather than as a disorder or a behavior. For example My mother's abusiveness" vs. My Abuser Mother." My descriptions of my experiences illustrate any abuse or narcissism or what have you very effectively without deconstructing the person.
I would venture that most abusers are/have been victims, aside from those with serious reality contact issues (voices, hallucinations, etc). In fact, those people are, to me, exempt from this conversation - different animal.
Again, the quote you pulled in conjunction with your inquiry was in direct response to Bunny's comment about "Using N-Language to protect their psyches from an abuser". I'm guessing that you and I feel more or less the same way about it all, from the content of your posts in general.
T - why do think Iamane has "balls"? What does this mean to you?
and why do you think you lack them? and how are you cultivating them?
I think Iamane is more consistently direct and challenging than I am, although she is not a confrontational bully about it, either. Often, I decline to ask very directed questions of other posters (and people in the world, too), instead opting to use language like "we", "one", "persons", etc. Although I think in one way this is a good thing - demostrates my intention to try to be socially repsobile and considerate as much as possible -, in another it can prevent me from making my points more sharply, honestly and deeply. At the root of it is a definite fear of my own potential to be a bully (we all have it), and worse, a fear of being "punished" by withdrawl of affection/esteem.
I think on this one I get an A+ for academics, but maybe a C- in lab.
Again, it's all a process.
And GFN, you are so very, very welcome. Thank you, too (and everyone else here perticipating), for your insights.
T
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GFN, I too have felt, and do feel, angry, hurt, cheated and yes, trapped. But only sometimes now, when I’m recycling the hurts, not all the time. There’s a lot in your post. Your feelings are important. And you have it within your power to change your thoughts and feelings. But it does hurt to do it.
Bunny, you make valid points about identifying and dealing with projections. GFN, I’m guessing you’re talking about an abuser you’ve known for a very long time. And that given your descriptions so far, this isn’t only about projections from that person. I think your own feelings in the present are connected to your past, perhaps your shared past. Which makes it more complex. I’m not asking you to confirm my guessing. We could talk about your abuser’s actual behaviour towards you and your possible responses. But your fear of harm concerns me. I could ask you, what do you mean? What harm? If you want to talk about it, you will, if you don’t, you won’t. Simple. Can I urge you to talk about this, your fear in particular, with a good therapist? I urge you to do that. Will you do it? With a therapist who works with adult abused children?
I think it is unfair to have to tolerate the abuse
Why do you have to tolerate this person’s abuse now? Please think about this. Because this person can harm you, I guess, or you think they can harm you. Think about what you mean by harm, about the practical aspects of this potential harm, and the emotional aspects. You don’t have to tolerate this person’s abuse, but you might have to change the way you see yourself to do that. Change your thinking about being trapped.
GFN, I’m not asking for answers from you above. But one thing I would like to know: have you ever been through your childhood experiences with a competent child abuse therapist? I’m guessing not. Instead I guess you’ve coped, admirably and responsibly, by yourself. I guess you’ve done that, been there and have no wish to go back. Can I say, if I’m correct about this, that if you go back with a good therapist, you’ll see things differently? And you won’t be alone? And it’s okay to do that because none of us is psychologically built to do these things alone? I couldn’t do it alone. It hurts too much. But on the other side of that hurt is something better. It takes courage and complete trust in a therapist, or a very close and understanding non-judgemental friend.
So how about we talk about labels some more? (But let’s carry on using the word ‘abuser’ for shorthand.)
Suppose a qualified professional was able to diagnose your current abuser as suffering from NPD? Suppose they did that today. What would the consequences be? If your abuser is functioning in society, isn’t carrying out any criminal activity, isn’t a danger to themselves, the consequences may be slight. The abuser could reject the diagnosis. Other people could. But you would know that one professional had made that diagnosis.
What difference would that make to you? What would you think and how would you feel about it? Would it remove your fear of harm? Would it change you?
Take it easy GFN, these are difficult things to think about, please don’t underestimate that. I respect your ability to cope with what life throws at you. But I’m also sorry that (I’m guessing again) you have been coping alone. It’s too much for one person. Luego
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Luego said:
Suppose a qualified professional was able to diagnose your current abuser as suffering from NPD? Suppose they did that today. What would the consequences be? If your abuser is functioning in society, isn’t carrying out any criminal activity, isn’t a danger to themselves, the consequences may be slight. The abuser could reject the diagnosis. Other people could. But you would know that one professional had made that diagnosis. What difference would that make to you? What would you think and how would you feel about it? Would it remove your fear of harm? Would it change you?
In my case this was extremely helpful. There were so many unanswered questions about my ex-fiance and why the relationship ended despite my doing just about anything and everything to sustain it (another inherent part of the problem but that's another story). Learning more about NPD helped me clarify some behaviors/characteristics that heretofore defied logic or reasoning.
As this thread and others have pointed to the pitfalls of labeling, I've tried to recognize that learning about NPD -- and how it applied to my situation -- was another piece of the puzzle toward self discovery. Whether he has full-blown NPD or just some characteristics isn't as important (for me) as understanding how his behavior affected me and why.
Also, knowing about NPD prepared me for the fact that he might:
move on quickly to locate immediate supply
provide no emotional closure
be capable of smear tactics during and after the breakup
have no empathy for how his behavior affected me (no matter how many times I tried to explain myself)[/list:u]All of the above happened and I was able to de-personalize some of this while grieving the loss and experiencing the pain.
Best,
bludie
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T,
I think you are talking about integrating good/bad within one person, seeing them as a person with various qualities, not as "all bad" which seems to be contained within the word "Narcissist."
To me, a narcissist isn't all bad. It's just a way of seeing this person's way of operating in the world. I really like some people with N tendencies. Some of them are my friends. I wouldn't be friendly with a malignant one, or one who is (IMO) abusive. But I am friendly with people who have narcissistic traits. They're often very fun, enjoyable people if you know what to expect from them. I don't think all people with N traits are lacking in empathy. Some of them have enough empathy to suit me. Basically I adapt my expectations to whatever they are able to do.
Some of my family are narcissists. Since there is a powerful attachment there, and it's more complicated, I tend to regress around them, and can get very upset. But I'm in therapy so that keeps me from acting on powerful feelings, and gives me reality checks.
The ability to integrate good/bad in one person is learned and it's not something one can just "do." For me, it took a LOT of therapy and self-work to get to the place of integration. I used to be a huge "splitter" and could not integrate. Basically it's a process and people might do some splitting and polarizing for a while while they are practicing ambivalence.
bunny
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I'm glad for you Bludie.
Whether he has full-blown NPD or just some characteristics isn't as important (for me) as understanding how his behavior affected me and why.
In other words, understanding how you reacted to him? And, if you were still with him, how you could change your thoughts and feelings about him? I agree, the 'diagnosis' becomes less important with more understanding about oneself.
T, thank you for your replies and for the chance to join your thread. For the moment I must go.
Luego
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what does IMO mean? and also BTW therapist?
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IMO = in my opinion
BTW = by the way
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my god, what is this? an advanced course in abnormal psychology? all i know is, my mom called me and it is all i can do to suffer through a conversation with her - she had an eye done (cataract) and oh my god, the doctor pulled the sheath off and pulled some skin with it and it felt (feels) like boiling water on there - and she cannot see a damn thing out of that eye - it is all blurry, and she is going to give that doctor hell - and i said - "well, Mom, it will get better" - and she said, "have you read 'Gone with the Wind' yet? and i said no, i have not found it yet - oh lord, God forbid anything is right and good -
i do love you people -
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Hi everyone,
This thread is really making me think about stuff.
Bunny wrote: Abusive people are (as luego dude points out) extremely fragile individuals, often operating at an infantile level of emotional defenses, and their projections are very powerful.
This is sure accurate as far as I can tell.
Also: How to deal with projections coming at you? The main way for me is to ID that it is mostly a projection (my own feelings will be mixed into it) and that I'm not going to process it for the person. I will let them do it. Then I decide how to give them back the projection in the most neutral way. Usually by hardly reacting at all, except by saying, "Oh." or "Hmmm." The quickest way to deflect a projection is to react very little.
This sounds like an effective way of dealing with a projection. In my case, I have no direct contact with the person. The way they are harming me is through my children as well as other indirect ways.
And: "There are times when one will 'volunteer' to take in a projection and that's a thought-out decision. "
I have to admit that I volunteer for some other people and sometimes without making that thought out decision. I will have to remember what you have said and try to be less of a sounding board, if it happens again.
T wrote: "I'm trying to do what I've advertised here and use language to change/moderate my thinking".
By language do you also mean discussion? I like your idea.
Even though you were speaking about labels in this next quote, it makes sense in regard to your general idea, I think.
....more globally, using moderation of language to manage/control/avoid internal stress and negative feelings/self-perception.
If discussion/language can help us to avoid these, let's keep doing it!
Luego wrote: GFN, I’m guessing you’re talking about an abuser you’ve known for a very long time.
Yes I am.
And that given your descriptions so far, this isn’t only about projections from that person. I think your own feelings in the present are connected to your past, perhaps your shared past. Which makes it more complex.
Right again.
I’m not asking you to confirm my guessing. We could talk about your abuser’s actual behaviour towards you and your possible responses. But your fear of harm concerns me.
That's ok and thankyou for saying so. We can't talk about my "abuser's" actual behaviour for a reason I can't discuss. My fear of harm from my "abuser" is not physical harm but emotional harm that the person does have the power to inflict. Thankyou for your concern and consideration.
Can I urge you to talk about this, your fear in particular, with a good therapist? I urge you to do that. Will you do it? With a therapist who works with adult abused children?
Been there done that with, actually, more than one. There was a 50% success rate (by that I mean that 1/2 of the therapists were out to lunch and caused me more harm than good and 1/2 knew their stuff and were very great help. The bottom line is that there is nothing I can do to stop my abuser.
Why do you have to tolerate this person’s abuse now? Please think about this. Because this person can harm you, I guess, or you think they can harm you. Think about what you mean by harm, about the practical aspects of this potential harm, and the emotional aspects.
I will try to think more about this but the real truth is that there is nothing I can do to stop this person from behaving the way they are. The damage they are causing is to my children, which hurts me twofold in the end and to my reputation, which cannot be recycled into what it was before. This person has power, knows they have power and is using that power to the uttmost of their ability. My therapists have all agreed on these points. The one's who caused harm (therapists) were those who tried to pin the blame on me and who could not believe that I could function the way I am, on my own, without breaking down. I guess a lot people would have had some kind of breakdown, in circumstances such as mine, but I have not and do not intend to and so far haven't. My situation is fraught with all kinds of issues that I think caused those therapists to project their "stuff" into my sessions. We are all human so I do understand. Took me awhile to be able to say that, though.
You don’t have to tolerate this person’s abuse, but you might have to change the way you see yourself to do that. Change your thinking about being trapped.
It's hard to imagine that what I am saying is true but it is. I am trapped. There is absolutely nothing I can do to change the situation. The thing I can do is cahnge my thinking, that is right. The quesiton is...to what? I'm trapped and I must survive until I am able to escape, later. That time will come. I'm doing my very best to try to avoid allowing myself to build up a whole, huge well of negative feelings and to just release them as they occur. I'm thinking of steps I can take, now and in the future, that will help my children. I'm making plans and that does help.
But one thing I would like to know: have you ever been through your childhood experiences with a competent child abuse therapist?
No I have not but I have been to therapists to deal with situations as they occurred. I became interested in the theories of psychology at a very young age and began applying some of the things I learned by reading. I don't know that doing that will actually help me. It's the frustration of having to put up with this person's behaviour, for now, that is difficult.
... if you go back with a good therapist, you’ll see things differently? And you won’t be alone? And it’s okay to do that because none of us is psychologically built to do these things alone? I couldn’t do it alone. It hurts too much. But on the other side of that hurt is something better. It takes courage and complete trust in a therapist, or a very close and understanding non-judgemental friend.
What do you want me to see differently? I'm not interested in reliving all of that because I feel like I've dealt with it. I feel like I understand what happened, why it happened, how I felt at the time, how I coped, how it effected my self-esteem, my attitude, my performance in school, my childhood life. I think I have improved in some of the areas that were really adversely effected and learned to accept my imperfections. I have forgiven my "abusers" and feel good about that too. Am I seeing it wrong somehow? How will rehashing my childhood help me to tolerate the crazy behaviour of this person in the present? Because that's really what I'm interested in doing.....tolerating it (for lack of a better word)....until it ends. And it will end (and not by my hand...as that sentence may suggest). Honestly, I don't think I have the stamina or the courage to risk an encounter with another therapist in the 50% failure zone. I have enough to recover from and I just don't need any more.
Suppose a qualified professional was able to diagnose your current abuser as suffering from NPD?......What difference would that make to you?
I don't think I need a diagnosis. I know this person is ill. It doesn't matter what label is put on it. I would still feel sorry for the person and glad that I have been spared the same or similar illness. I'm not afraid of the person. I'm afraid of the harm they are causing by their behaviour, which is not something I have any control over. A diganosis wouldn't change that.
Take it easy GFN, these are difficult things to think about, please don’t underestimate that. I respect your ability to cope with what life throws at you. But I’m also sorry that (I’m guessing again) you have been coping alone. It’s too much for one person.
Thankyou Luego. I know you have to guess a lot because I haven't given specifics and I haven't done so for a reason I'm not able to disclose. It's not as bad as you may think. I'm actually a pretty cool kitty and I can take my share of grief. Sometimes I think it would be better if this person would just come over and beat the living' crap outta me. At least then the cuts and bruises would heal and it would be over. The way it is now.....is limbo. It is like having someone let minute drops of acid fall on your clothing. You scramble to either rip the clothes off or rince the stuff out. Either way, you are always on alert and always having to do something to combat the effects of the acid.
I have 2 more years of it to withstand. Once that time is up....some things will change for the better. I am a positive, hopeful person with good coping mechanisms, in many respects, and I know I will survive. And I don't really feel so alone, when I speak here and people like you listen and respond. I'm in an odd situation that is not easy to deal with. On the other hand, people have put up with and survived much worse.
bludie wrote: Learning more about NPD helped me clarify some behaviors/characteristics that heretofore defied logic or reasoning.
Me too.
and I was able to de-personalize some of this while grieving the loss and experiencing the pain.
It does feel like a personal attack because it is a personal attack. On the other hand, you're right, it's the illness that causes the behaviour....not the person--me. My brain gets it. My heart still grieves.
GFN
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T, I'm having a bit of trouble trying to work out your reasoning.
my posts have been clearly in support of abdication of labels for the sake of the labeler
I can see that your argument is true for strangers; that we not judge/label them for superficial reasons (skin colour, height, culture, behaviour, etc.). If we do, we are in fact, superficial and shallow.
But I can't relate this theory to personal relationships.
When I found this board, and had that Eureka moment about my (separated from) husband's behaviour and began to realise that he had the classic narcissistic tendencies, the fact that I could label him with this helped me enormously in beginning my healing process. He was no longer just my ex husband, he was my exN husband. I am no longer attached to him in any way, and can say that I have no need to label him as anything other than my former husband, because he simply doesn't matter anymore in my life. Not because I've chosen to not label him as you advocate we all do, but as a natural process. In fact, I don't think it's possible to do as you say. You can't un-label someone who already has a label eg. husband, girlfriend etc. We label them the minute we start a relationship with them and it just gets added to, in some form or another.
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Guest:
I do not know what your present circumstances are, if you are married have children, economically tied to this individual whatever........what I do know is that you have "awakened" to what your dealing with....whatever you want to label it........it is something that is occurring at you and your children's emotional expense. I to was trapped and marked time by the days and years until I could escape.
I eventually became a "mental athelte" to get through. While it is admirable to slice and dice why "abusers" do what they do and to figure out the why, when and where of it.........and it does help to know this in the scheme of things.........N's could care less about the why of it. They operate in a emotional vaccum. I realize this is a global statement about N's. We should care about them as individuals and what is to become of them.......however, the energy expended cannot come at the expense of your emotional health.
I read a Dr. Phil book recently on what it is to be a life manager of your life. Taking responsiblity for what you will manage in the best interests of your emotional health and well being. Personally speaking, I can no longer worry about N's. The only investment I can put into other individuals is the uplifting, positive.......and mutual kind.
Guest, my hope and desire for you is that you can be sustained in your mental health, and to do those things your able to do for yourself right now. If you know that your situation is going to change in the next two years, then that is a goal within itself. You can look at the calendar and know each day is a day less in captivity. I used message boards to gain strength from others, had a close friend in which to confide. I did not seek a therapist, I felt, in my case I was more capable of handling my situation and making incremental changes. In other words I felt a therapist would make demands of me that could not work in my situation and would only muddy the waters. This works from some people, for some it does not.
Just keep posting. I just know this place is still a good life line to those who are "there" and who have come out on the otherside. I in do not know everything about N's, but I do know some things. I just hope as a newbie to this board that my posts do not come across as "knowing it all" because I don't. I just have my own experiences for the last 50 years to go by. Many hugs to all. Patz
Patz
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Dear Patz,
I can no longer worry about N's. The only investment I can put into other individuals is the uplifting, positive.......and mutual kind.
That's something I have not considered, the unprofitable emotional investment I am making. I'm a thrifty person too, so maybe if I try to think of this, next time I find myself having making a deposit, I might be able to choose to pass by such a lousy deal and make a wiser choice. Good old Dr. Phil! Thanks Patz.
I eventually became a "mental athelte" to get through.
Yes, that's what it feels like, in a way, for me too. I wonder if many people who have to deal with a person who behaves like an N will need to become mental athletes in order to get by in one piece?
Guest, my hope and desire for you is that you can be sustained in your mental health, and to do those things your able to do for yourself right now.
Thankyou Patz and I return the hope for you too. Even if you are no longer trapped, I would guess that there are wounds to heal and scars to get used to. I'm glad you're here.
I just have my own experiences for the last 50 years to go by. Many hugs to all.
That's all any of us have and by sharing our experiences, hopefully, we will all learn something, offer supportive feedback, and whether we are new here or not, we all have something to say of value and worth. You keep posting too Patz. Hug for you from me.
GFN
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GFN, you have said in your posts:
I am afraid of what this person is capable of doing to cause me more harm, which compares greatly to the fear I had as a child of being harmed by my abusers then.
My fear is real because this present day person does indeed have the power to cause me great and further harm and I have to be careful not to allow such opportunity.
In my case, I have no direct contact with the person. The way they are harming me is through my children as well as other indirect ways.
My fear of harm from my "abuser" is not physical harm but emotional harm that the person does have the power to inflict.
the real truth is that there is nothing I can do to stop this person from behaving the way they are. The damage they are causing is to my children, which hurts me twofold in the end and to my reputation, which cannot be recycled into what it was before.
So your fear is that the abuser is causing you emotional harm, mainly through your children? And your children are also being damaged emotionally? What do your children say about the situation?
It's the frustration of having to put up with this person's behaviour
I'm not afraid of the person. I'm afraid of the harm they are causing by their behaviour, which is not something I have any control over.
So you are not afraid of the person themselves. You are afraid of the consequences of them influencing others, including your children? What are the consequences? If you think about the worst that could happen, just how bad is that?
Sometimes I think it would be better if this person would just come over and beat the living' crap outta me.
This indicates a disagreement between the two of you and that you would like it resolved? Perhaps it would be better if the person said whatever things they have to say, directly to you and beat the crap out of you. Perhaps this is what you want? It also sounds as though you perhaps have some sympathy for their viewpoint too?
We cannot control others but we can attempt to communicate with them and understand why they behave as they do. And if it is important to us, we carry on trying to communicate, or we reach a stage where what they do no longer affects us.
This person affects you. Or do they? Is it instead your own thoughts and feelings that are affecting you? I don't know.
Luego
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T - you used some labels for yourself
Seeker, thinker, writer, partner, mom, musician, nature-lover, smoker, red wine-drinker, and more.
I would label myself with those words too, except I am definitely not a musician, or indeed, a mom. luego
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Hi All (boy is this ever lively!).
GFN:
....more globally, using moderation of language to manage/control/avoid internal stress and negative feelings/self-perception.
I think what I'm ainming at with this statement is moderating the language I use when I talk to MYSELF.
This kind of goes hand in hand with the I Voice (listening to my own sub-text and that of others, consciously changing the language to reflect the subtext - and, importantly SPEAKING the revised language to myself), but I also think it goes beyond that, into the behavioral realm -meaning "to set new behavioral/emotional cues" for yourself.
Luego may or may not have a point about exploring the deep past issues. I say this only because my own experience shows me that in certain ways, I am still exhibiting in some of the same behavioral/emotional habits, that, while as functional as I could manage as a child, promote a certain ineffectiveness/diminishment in dealing with present-day trouble.
Your comment that you "have to tolerate it" and are trapped makes me think of my own situation. I actually got some pretty good advice recently about maintaining a "head-to-head" status in conflict. This is hard for me on numerous levels, but it essentially boils down to the fact that I have become so habituated to "keeping the peace" by reading the signals of others that I unintentionally keep myself in the weakened position - trapped, in essence, by my diligence in maintaining a narrowly defined control (thus the C- in lab). This robs me of my own voice to express my anger and to take action about it, because somewhere in the programming of my childhood I learned to be very still and quiet while I waited for the threat to go away ("until it ends"), in your words.
My arguments and rebuttals and even my reactions are largely logic and reasoning-based, giving me little room for my own REAL, UGLY - but JUSTIFIED -feelings, but I have had a few good (of course, the word good should be taken as "qualified") experiences where I was able to get better results by forcing myself to be direct.
I know what it is to be harmed through your child, to have your reputation and social standing destroyed. I agree that it is true that a certain acceptance is called for, also. You may not be able to change a thing. Even though my husband and I have reconciled, nothing is as it was before and will not be again. However, new stuff has come along and gradually the holes are gettting filled.
What was most helpful for me when we were (I thought permanently) separated was to stop saying to myself "My Life as I Knew It is Gone/Destroyed". That was a true statement, but it did not serve me to keep saying it that way. Instead, I taught myself to say: "I am out of an unfulfilling, hurtful life and am Starting a New Life." I even threw in a thoroughly juvenile but exceedingly satisfying (in my thoughts to myself) "And you don't get to be part of it, Nah-Nah.
It sounds really simplistic, I know, but it worked over a fairly short period of time, once I decided to make myself re-state that every time I thought the destroyed/gone thoughts (and trapped and helpless).
As reagrds my husband's use of my child to harm me , I just stood up and said: "You can choose to play games with me through our daughter, if you wish. You know it's bad parenting, I know it, everybody with half a brain knows it - but you can choose that if you like. However, I don't choose to play those games, I will not respond to them other than to remind you that you are choosing to hurt your child, and I will not repair your damaged relationship with her for you. I will provide her with any comfort she needs, but I'm not making any excuses for you or covering up your game-playing, even to her. Period."
I had to repeat this speech many times, but it did have a certain effectiveness after awhile. Of course, he did not (until much later) come running to me to announce that he was changing his ways, but I could see it. I did not comment (I will not praise people who are actively hurting me).
As for the reputation-smear campaign stuff, that was harder. There was really nothing I could say to HIM to make that stop. I just picked up the pieces, tried to make new friends as I was ready, even tried dating after abiout six months (as an exercise ONLY - I knew very well I was not ready for a new relationship). What I did with language, though, was stop thinking the destructive words he was using or thinking what others thought of me now that he had said those things. Instead of thinking "I am not all those things he's saying", I redirected to say to myself: "I AM x, I AM Y. Because my life has changed, I now have an opportunity to show this more and better than before." That wasn't easy, but over time the reflex thought became more geared toward the latter.
Although I was fairly succesful in dealing with my husband' acting out during that time (crazy as he was and I felt), I am backsliding a bit lately because those childhood habits (still and small) remain. I am beginning to see how this actually encourages any Narcissistic tendencies in my husband. We're both acting out, I think, our childhoods this way. If I go still and small, he sometimes is non-chalantly dismissive (making be shrink a bit more, of course), then later rages at me, saying all the things that as a child he could not say to his mother, who let her small stillness starve him emotionally and physically. I think when he is dismissive of me in my small state, he is unconsciously recreating his experience with mom so he can express himself. He acknowledges this to some degree. He recognizes the fear he feels when I become small. Now we're down to recognizing the start of the recreation.
Conversely, his raging makes me most often go still and smaller (in adult terms this means to refrain from comment, to communicate not with strong powerful words, but through questions, body language - things that aren't affirmative) even more, getting smaller and smaller until I go black hole non-functional (just like dear old mom). Then on the other side of that is the super-nova of my rage that I never could adequately express, either, which also ain't pretty. In a sense, I am setting this up too, replaying my situation by failing to recognize in that emotional state that he is not my mother, he is an equal adult and I can find better ways to behave than still/small. Basically, I don't have to WAIT for him to step up and meet my needs, I can demand that of him frankly.
The big difference is that I actually rage against myself first, at least in covert terms, while he rages aginst others first, in overt terms, when we start ot slip up and go back to those childhood states.
Horrible as all that sounds, that isn't the sum-total uf us. We both work at having a certain awareness, and we go through very sucessful periods. But we do both slide back periodically. Hopefully, we will never slide back to where we visited a few years ago.
The talk of voice and language moderation is dear to me, in the sense that I need as strong reminders as anyone about these things, because I sometimes forget to speak correctly about myself and my feelings.
Many times, the correct terms are counter-intuitive and require me to just suck it up and do it with diligence, even if it feels wrong or scary somehow. The consequence of NOT moderating my language is much worse - for me and my favorite narcisisst both.
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I would label myself with those words too, except I am definitely not a musician, or indeed, a mom. luego
Kinda thinkin' dude might be a hint on that one, although it could easily indicate surf-punk tendencies (thus a secret guitar with an anarchy sticker on it).
Both of those jobs are key to my happiness. The other stuff brings me some satisfaction, but these two are pure joy.
T
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Kinda thinkin' dude might be a hint on that one
No hint intended...
although it could easily indicate surf-punk tendencies
I have a copy of Wreckless Eric 'Go Girl Crazy'...
(thus a secret guitar with an anarchy sticker on it).
Sounds good, but no - luego
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not Wreckless Eric, The Dictators did 'Go Girl Crazy', ironic surf-punk, un poco off topic? apologies - luego
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luego see new thread to continue...
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KAZ:
T, I'm having a bit of trouble trying to work out your reasoning.
Quote:
my posts have been clearly in support of abdication of labels for the sake of the labeler
I definitely believe that a certian amount of that helps in immediate terms.
In the long haul, though, it does not matter "what" a person who has/is harmed you can be called.
Hanging on to a label after you've determined the meaning and application of the related information (N, Abuser, etc) can stunt you in several ways (or so I think).
In one way, as I've talked about before, I think when we use those terms as part of the identity of the other person, we are unconsciously applying the opposite terms to ourselves (N=Power, Anger, Victim=Weak, Powerless).
In another, that I've also talked about before, I think we can automatically dismiss even the useful and/or truthful things said by such persons bacuse we grow attached to the notion that the Labeled Other is one-dimensional, and can offer nothing but pain and hurt ("Nothing an "N" says is ever truthful or meaningful so I won't listen"). In that case, we can miss out on some really good information about ourselves because we have so narrowly defined the source.
On the flip side of that, we are potentially making ourselves one-dimensional also, becoming unduly suspicious, looking for N symptoms everywhere in a effort to protect ourselves from further harm ("I am the Victim of an N, so I must constantly be on the lookout for more N behavior"). This puts us at risk for defining everyone that says/does something that hurts our feelings, or even with which we disagree, as Ns - and thus we are only Victims. There is an actual example of that on this thread , where a poster accused me of being a narcissist because this thread was popular and s/he didn't like the nature of my ideas about these things. Clearly, this person was distraught about Ns to the point where if anything was slightly disagreeable, N was the reason.
Fortunately, others were able to see that and went to bat for me (thanks!).
In another way, which I haven't articulated before now, we can also diminish our right and need to fight back, beacuse it is presumptive in N Theory that They Can't Be Stopped (I give up), and on the more insidious side, They are Too Damaged to Take Responsibility, So There's No Point in Trying. My personal experience shows both things to be untrue.
What you do about that depends on two things: How much Affirmative Voice you are capable of using - and how much it's worth it to you to try.
If you want to make tolerable or repair a damaged relationship, then you have to learn to speak and act very affirmatively - "head to head" - and not back down or peace-make when you see the narcissistic behavior coming. I'm still working at that, because it's counter-intuitive to me. when I apply it, however, it works.
If you want to suspend contact, then you have to come up with a consequence for further boundary crossing, state it clearly and unequivocally, then follow through under all circumstances.
I think it becomes hard to navigate either approach if you are thinking in terms of the label with more emphasis than you are thinking in terms of your own needs and preferneces. If you are giving the label preferential status (N Ex instead of EX), then you are giving the person/behavior a kind of "special" status, more powerful and extraordinary than any other a**hole on the block.
I think labeling, once past the point of essential understanding, gets in our way.
Although everyone certainly has a right to label or not label as they personally see fit, I don't advocate it because my own experiecne has helped me understand how it can get in the way.
T
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There is an actual example of that on this thread , where a poster accused me of being a narcissist because this thread was popular and s/he didn't like the nature of my ideas about these things. Clearly, this person was distraught about Ns to the point where if anything was slightly disagreeable, N was the reason.
Do you know that this person was distraught about N's to the point where anything slightly disagreeable was considered narcissistic? Do you know that the person felt something was slightly disagreeable? Please clarify. Admittedly I haven't gone back to find this post.
bunny
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check back - it was a direct attack and accusation, worded very clearly. GFN came to my defense. Ask again if it doesn't look over the top to you.
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Luego & T,
Your words have really helped me, and seem to be aligned with my own thinking. One of my issues in contemplating leaving my own situation is that I may be aborting my own growth process. I keep coming back to the question "what am I meant to learn here?" I am not a victim, but instead a strong, capable, powerful woman. Many of the patterns in my familial relationships are clearly reflected in my situation with my spouse.
Can you recommend any books that are aligned with your philosophies?
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As reagrds my husband's use of my child to harm me , I just stood up and said: "You can choose to play games with me through our daughter, if you wish. You know it's bad parenting, I know it, everybody with half a brain knows it - but you can choose that if you like. However, I don't choose to play those games, I will not respond to them other than to remind you that you are choosing to hurt your child, and I will not repair your damaged relationship with her for you. I will provide her with any comfort she needs, but I'm not making any excuses for you or covering up your game-playing, even to her. Period."
This statement is disturbing. Particularly the lines highlighted. This speaks of a level of dissociating AS A PARENT, by both of the parents in this accounting.
It presents a picture of a lack of proper or appropriate parental support and protection for the child from both parents. I find it quite abhorrent that any parent would knowingly allow any other person to abuse and use their child for any selfish means or relationship dominance.
The consenting parent is equally guilty of abuse in this case. If any parent is aware that any other person is using or abusing their child or any child they have a responsibility to put a stop to it immediately. Once they become aware that their child is being used as a tool or weapon by the other parent just to get at them, they have an even greater responsibility to put an immediate stop it, for the child's sake. No parent should allow their child to suffer needlessly, or because of them, or because of their dysfunctional relationship. Especially when they are fully conscious of the fact that they are the reason the child is being abused!
By not active protective measures they are giving their consent to the abuse and allowing the abuse to continue while they are both playing a love-game with the child as currency. Especially disturbing if they are aware the child is being deliberately hurt.
Delusional thinking is one parent believing that the comfort that they offer the child will repair any damage done to the child by both parents? The covert abuser offering comfort is rather perverse and causes me to recall many countless similar childhood stories shared here on this forum, like
"I was being emotionally/verbally abused by my mother and my father never protected me from her."
Thankfully his conscience eventually kicked in and he stopped, and I suppose the other more covert-abusive parent could take credit for that and could even use that relationship-dynamic victory in the future to gain further personal ground.
It is just plain wrong, and we are as guilty as the perp, if we allow any situation of child abuse to continue unaddressed, or to continue until the abuser sees the error of their ways. How terribly sad all of these games are for the children.
My Thoughts On The Matter
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I think labeling, once past the point of essential understanding, gets in our way.
T
IMO you defeat yourself with your very own argument T.
Correct labeling of a ourselves or another person is essential for a successful relationships and the decision making processes of life. You know, adult stuff. Intelligent labelling leads to intelligent prioritizing and then intelligent action hopefully. Not just understanding for understanding's sake alone. High IQ/Low EQ stuff.
For example. Understanding that your child was being abused by their father would hopefully have led you to the sad recognition of the fact that he was in fact, primarily, an abuser in the context of your family. Once the approriate label was affixed, possibly with professional help, then direct intervention is the next step because you have accepted a position and made a decision. No 'child-abuser/wife-abuser' label or acceptance by you equalled no need for you to take protective and approriate action. Which was the case in your example. This also devolves you of responsibility for consequences.
If you reject labelling then you are avoiding responsibility and aren't moving to the point of action because you are not accepting responsibility.
Denying the need for or validity of labels enables you to kid yourself that there is anything more you could have done or that there was anything else to deal with. This is a cop out and a way of avoiding reality.
This philosophy of yours explains why you are so oppposed to people being labeled N's. It's an essential defence for you against facing the consequences of your own poor decision-making. You are labouring in self-justifaction over your own actions and inactions, especially when you haven't wanted to or been able to deal with the consequences of calling a spade a spade in your life.
My Thoughts On This Matter
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check back - it was a direct attack and accusation, worded very clearly. GFN came to my defense. Ask again if it doesn't look over the top to you.
Okay I believe I found it. I don't question whether it's a direct attack and accusation. I'm referring to your statement that the person felt there was something 'slightly disagreeable' and that she is 'distraught' about Ns. Because you are very specific about language and its power, I noticed this statement. It kind of leapt out at me. I wondered whether you had some inside knowledge about the poster's feelings. I see the poster as extremely angry, not seeing something 'slightly disagreeable' but rather extremely disagreeable, and not distraught. I'm not in agreement with the poster btw. I'm just wondering what led you to say this about the poster's reasons and feelings.
bunny
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As reagrds my husband's use of my child to harm me , I just stood up and said: "You can choose to play games with me through our daughter, if you wish. You know it's bad parenting, I know it, everybody with half a brain knows it - but you can choose that if you like. However, I don't choose to play those games, I will not respond to them other than to remind you that you are choosing to hurt your child, and I will not repair your damaged relationship with her for you. I will provide her with any comfort she needs, but I'm not making any excuses for you or covering up your game-playing, even to her. Period."
I think it's important to remember that the context of this statement is one where I did not have control over how my husband chose to behave. Factually, it was his choice to play games or not, and my choice to participate or not. Since he was commiting no illegal acts, I had no power to force him to alter his behavior.
However, I was able to say "This is bad parenting and you know it" but refuse to engage with him further on the direct issue, other than to point it out when he did it. I then walked away, refusing to play. I was also able to tell him that I would not cover up for him or make excuses, nor would I try to "fix" any damage to his relationship, because I would then be teaching my daughter to ignore her own reality. I did emphasize, however, that I would provide all the comfort she might need as a result of these transactions, and I did deliver on that.
Basically, I refused to be party to the game. Every "You Stop That Now You Bad Man" reaction on my part would have been construed, under the conditions, as an invitation to play, and would have escalated the whole business.
I used this illustration to demonstrate taking control of the situation to the best of my ability and within my legal rights, not letting myself get sucked in by rising to the argumentative bait. If I do not dispute his choice, he can't fight with me to affirm his power. I simply gave him his power and said "Here. Have the control - and the responsibility for how you use it."
Say whatever you want about my ineffectiveness or destructiveness or whatever, but the strategy was effective and it worked. He stopped doing it after a couple of months of me repeating the same speech every time.
Speaking of argumentative bait...sometimes, I will nibble. But most often, I bypass it in favor of more delicious fare, the kind without barbed hooks in it.
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I used this illustration to demonstrate taking control of the situation to the best of my ability and within my legal rights, not letting myself get sucked in by rising to the argumentative bait. If I do not dispute his choice, he can't fight with me to affirm his power. I simply gave him his power and said "Here. Have the control - and the responsibility for how you use it. T
I'm looking at your child's legal rights and how you failed to enforce those, not your legal rights that you were busily enforcing. Our children are separate entities with their own rights and identity which it is our responsibility, especially as parents, to enforce until they can.
You failed to dispute his choice in any significant protective way so abuse continued for months. By your failure to intervene appropriately and your particular type of inaction you affirmed his power to your child and denied your child their full legal rights. IMO you had full opportunity and responsibility and power to intervene and protect your child immediately from the abusive-power and effects of the other parent. Whether you like/accept it or not!
Speaking of argumentative bait...sometimes, I will nibble. But most often, I bypass it in favor of more delicious fare, the kind without barbed hooks in it
I see your 'Barbed Hook' comment as simply you projecting T. I refuse to accept that comment if it was dircted at me. I am speaking to you honestly and directly from my own firm beliefs about child-abuse and it's many players and guises. If you are interpreting that as Barbed Hooks from me, that is your loss and your problem to sort out.
My Thoughts On This Matter
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One of my issues in contemplating leaving my own situation is that I may be aborting my own growth process. I keep coming back to the question "what am I meant to learn here?" I am not a victim, but instead a strong, capable, powerful woman. Many of the patterns in my familial relationships are clearly reflected in my situation with my spouse.
I can't say whether leaving or staying is best for your growth. Certainly I benefited from our separation, but I am also benefiting from our reconcilliation. Sometimes getting to the benefits can be a painful process - but without some of the conflicts and hurts we have been experiencing, I might not be in a position to refine my self-perception as deeply. If I had moved on to another relationsship or was not in one at this time, either the newness or the isolation would have prevented me from understanding myself not just a s a discrete individual (separation helped that ), but also in terms of my self-assigned/accepted roles in relationships and how those roles serve a hidden purpose. It can be a double-edged sword.
I can't say for sure one way or the other if I was "meant" to learn anything, but I did, at some point, make a conscious decision that "By damn, if I gotta suffer, I'm gonna get something useful out of it!" I found that more helpful than pressuring myself to live up to a "higher purpose", especially since I personally don't subscribe to the idea that suffering is "for a reason". Sometimes, it IS just random and makes no sense. But usually, you can find something valuable to take away, if you try. Even if that's only "let's not let that happen again".
Most recently, I've enjoyed Dr. Grossmans essays on this site. There is no direct link for this page, so you'll have to go to ww.voicelessness.com. Although certainly not comprehensive, they do give a nice summary snapshot of the fundamental thought/effects of the concept of voice and voicelessness.
Many of the more specific thoughts I have on the subject of I Voice and Labeling (voicelessness carries a self-labeling, self diminishing component) are directly inspired by these essays, which is why I chose to post here.
Books that have helped me with practical problem-solving and decision-making include The Post Traumatic Stress Disorder Sourcebook (helped during crisis mode quite a lot), Glen Schiraldi (MD? PhD?) and After the Affair, Janis Spring - which very surprisingly contains lots of concepts applicable to situations other than infidelity. I SOOO did not want to crack the cover of that book (recommended by joint therapist). I was just sure it was going to ask me to forgive and forget and just get over it. Instead, it was very affirming for me, the betrayed spouse, yet still asked lots of penetrating questions of both the betrayed and the unfaithful spouse -many of whichm, in retrospect (it's been awhile), relate to voice, though not in that language.
There is another that I can't find (I have too many books - and some of them, in deferenece to the feelings of my husband, I keep tucked out of sight. It would suck for me if I thought he was constantly trying to diagnose me. We talk about all this sometimes, but I don't find it helpful to belabor the point) that was partuicularly helpful in coming to understand my husband in crisis mode. I believe it is simply titled "Narcissism". It is a slim volume by a Medical/Psychoanalytic professional. It describes the continuum theory very well, and helped me understand how a man who was seemingly centered and okay (if a bit impatient and moody) some of the time could seem so out of touch with himself and me at others, escalating in crisis to what appeared to be a severe psychotic episodea (we both agree with that assesment, as do both therapists involved with us). This also helped me to understand how those nasty-self-directed messages, learned and adopted in our formative years, can drive a person to divorce himself - thus everyone else, in both the literal and figurative senses - and how we repeat those messages internally and often without our knowledge.
Jung's archetypes, while probably read by most people participating in this thread, still helps in terms of finding one's own subtext, I think. simplistic, but does help pinpoint emotinal/behavioral trends in a very concrete way.
I've been influenced in my thinking by so many works, including fiction (Salman Rushdie has an interesting spin on trauma and birth/re birth in the opening chapters of The Satanic Verses), eastern thought (zen in general, Peace is Every Step (Please don't ask me to spell the author's name without going to find it first), sociological works regarding race and class, etc. I just like to read and am naturally curious, so I end up with lots of stuff packed in there that influence the outgo. I guess I'm always experimenting with the things I learn - see if they hold up or not for me.
It's hard to pin down a single source for the exact philosophy (that is the right word, thanks) I've come to have. This is really a result of piecing together lots of different ideas and premises from elsewhere into terms that are meaningful to my life and my self.
And once again, for those who feel I am trying to run their lives: I am posting simply to communicate my ideas, share what has been sucessful and not for me, and to refine my concepts of voice through the concentration that posting requires.
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Hello all,
Luego asked: So your fear is that the abuser is causing you emotional harm, mainly through your children? And your children are also being damaged emotionally? What do your children say about the situation?
One won't talk about it, seems to believe what has been communicated by my "abuser", seems to consider my "abuser" to be a model human being, etc. The other is upset and says he/she "can't stand it" when this "abuser" person "says bad things about" me, seems to avoid contact with my "abuser" (as much as possible), voices a desire to remain out of the conflict and states he/she feels "stuck in the middle".
So you are not afraid of the person themselves. You are afraid of the consequences of them influencing others, including your children?
Yep.
What are the consequences? If you think about the worst that could happen, just how bad is that?
The consequences could be severe.
This indicates a disagreement between the two of you and that you would like it resolved?
I have no desire to ever resolve anything with this person. I want the person out of my life and away from my family. I want nothing to do with this person again. I care about the person but the reality is...this person does not see that they have a problem and will not likely change their behaviour in this lifetime. They will continue to hurt me, as sure as cold ___ in a dead dog, if I were to allow them back into my life.
Perhaps it would be better if the person said whatever things they have to say, directly to you and beat the crap out of you.
Perhaps but the person has no spine and will never face me. The person is a sneak and a liar and has no guts. I made a big mistake in confronting this person, awhile back, and that sent them off the deep end. I'm not the least bit afraid to speak my thoughts and feelings clearly to this person but this person will not face me. It is much easier (and possibly) more satisfying for them to try to destroy me by other means.
It also sounds as though you perhaps have some sympathy for their viewpoint too?
I understand that this person was also abused, which explains but does not excuse their behaviour. I suspect the person is projecting feelings from the past toward me.
We cannot control others but we can attempt to communicate with them and understand why they behave as they do.
I am not interested in attempting any further communication with this person. I think I understand why they are behaving the way they are but this does not make it right.
...or we reach a stage where what they do no longer affects us.
That is definately my goal.
Is it instead your own thoughts and feelings that are affecting you?
I can't think of a thought that would produce a positive feeling at those moments when my one child pulls away and the other expresses hurt because of what my "abuser" says and does. I want to scream and I want to throttle this person and tell them that they are "abusing" my children and me. Confronting them, however, is not an option. Instead, I try to soothe the one child and help he/she to express feelings and I try to reach out to the other and be patient and hope for the future.
I'm using the label "abuser", by the way, because this person is one and is indeed doing that and it seems the most accurate description, since I choose not to devulge our relationship (otherwise I would just say...my blank). I see this person as sick but not wholly evil. I see the person as human, fragile and yes....terrified....of the truth about themselves. Inside, somewhere, there is a small child who was badly hurt and who is now striking out at the wrong people. For that...I feel very sad and wish I could make it all better.
T wrote: I think what I'm ainming at with this statement is moderating the language I use when I talk to MYSELF.
I call this self-talk.
I unintentionally keep myself in the weakened position - trapped, in essence, by my diligence in maintaining a narrowly defined control (thus the C- in lab). This robs me of my own voice to express my anger and to take action about it, because somewhere in the programming of my childhood I learned to be very still and quiet while I waited for the threat to go away ("until it ends"), in your words.
I don't think I'm keeping myself in a weakened position. This person has definate power and knows it. Anything I say will exascerbate the situation.
What was most helpful for me when we were (I thought permanently) separated was to stop saying to myself "My Life as I Knew It is Gone/Destroyed". That was a true statement, but it did not serve me to keep saying it that way. Instead, I taught myself to say: "I am out of an unfulfilling, hurtful life and am Starting a New Life."
For the most part, I have done the same thing (except my old life was not unfulfilling or hurtful).
As for the reputation-smear campaign stuff, that was harder. There was really nothing I could say to HIM to make that stop.
Ditto for the person in my situation.
It sounds like you've been through quite a time, T, and I commend you for sticking it out and working to improve things. You seem to be trying to be self-aware and looking to grow into the best person you can be. You are taking responsibility for your behaviour in the relationship and trying to help your husband understand you. You seem to have a handle on seeing things from his side too and it sounds like some things are improving. I hope it continues to get better and better from now on.
GFN
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I think you need to examine the lack of information with which you are arguing.
How do you know that the behaviors met the legal definition of abuse (I was talking to GFN about game-playing that ex-spouses sometimes do, not outright abuse)?
How do you know that I did not consult with an attorney to determine my rights/my child's rights (I did. Spent 200.00 with the best family attorney in town for one hour of"nothing you can do". Was I supposed to cause such a ruckus, with no legal backing, that I lost complete control over my daughter's situation?)
As for the bait comment - I'm not projecting. You are being argumentative and hostile, making serious accusations without nearly enough information to support them. you are failing to present a thoughful argument or rebuttal to anything, you are merely trying to punish me and make me feel small because you don't like what I say and you don't agree.
Let me be more direct: I will not play this game with you. You can choose to talk to yourself out loud about it and me to try to get my attention, but I'm not gonna play unless you are reasoned and civil, and at least make a tiny effort to get adequate information before leveling such serious allegations.
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As for the bait comment - I'm not projecting. T
You were.
You are being argumentative and hostile. T
This is not me being argumentative and hostile but you can't know that so you are assuming. I'm simply saying what I think. No hostility. You are projecting again.
you are failing to present a thoughful argument or rebuttal to anything. T
Once again, I'm not arguing. Just calling it as I see it.
If you can't see anything thoughtful in what I've said that's your right and loss.
you are merely trying to punish me and make me feel small
This, is you projecting big time now. That is your realtionship with your mother you are projecting onto me. That is your realtionship with husband you are projecting on to me. That is nothing to do with me and what I am about. Your loss that you can't see that.
because you don't like what I say and you don't agree.
I am not arguing with you, just stating my opinion and position as you and others have a right to do. I don't agree with abusive parenting, or it being enabled by denial.
That's all for now
MTOTM
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Thanks for your reply T.
One thing I'd like to mention about the danger of always being on the look out for N's, (in a paranoid way). I think this does happen but it is in conjunction with the knowledge that you have attracted this type already and sure as hell, don't want to again. Those that keep going down the same road haven't worked that out obviously, but those that know about the mechanics of a narcissist are on a constant vigil. Self protection.
I do hope that everything works out well for you.
Kaz.
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Good morning:
One thing I'd like to mention about the danger of always being on the look out for N's, (in a paranoid way). I think this does happen but it is in conjunction with the knowledge that you have attracted this type already and sure as hell, don't want to again. Those that keep going down the same road haven't worked that out obviously, but those that know about the mechanics of a narcissist are on a constant vigil. Self protection.
Does this really work? Being hyper-vigilant, in a paranoid way, knowing the mechanics of a narcissist, and always being on the look out for the type?
The reason I ask is because I truly believe these people have an uncanny way of insidiously slipping in closer to their prey (that's what it feels like to me.......like a hunter came after me as prey).
My theory is the better I know myself, the harder I try to give out "I'm not prey" signals, the more I do to keep myself from being mentally and emotionally vunerable, the better. I think it's me that attracts the type and it's me that has to change to decrease the changes of repeating that.
I also think, some of it is just chance.
Let's face it, sometimes hunters are just good hunters and sometimes prey is just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Can we really protect ourselves from those who behave like this by constantly scanning others for signs, behaviours and traits?
It could be? I just haven't thought about it that way before. It does seem extreme and it does seem to me that if I look for that....I will see it first because we all have some N traits, don't we?
GFN
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Hello all:
A ficitional story I will call "The Trip".
Jim says to Jayne, let's take a trip. Jayne says, "Well I really can't because I have many obligations and I really don't have the time or money right now". Jim says, "Well, I really need you to take me to (wherever) because I need you." Pausing, Jayne says " well, ok" because it has always been that Jim needs her. So Jayne gets in the passengers side. Where upon Jim says, " oh no I really need you to drive me there". Jayne says " well how far is it". He says it is only about 2-3 hours. Jayne thinks this is really not so bad. So she agrees. While driving she states she says she would like to stop by McDonald's for something to eat. Jim replies there is no time, he has to be at this destination in a hurry. So she complies. Well, 3 hours pass and she is still driving. Jayne asks are we there yet. Jim says "Not yet".
Jayne asks Jim " could you please drive my neck is really tired and I need to rest". Jim replies, "Well you know you promised to drive and you know how my eyesight is." So Jayne keeps driving. Six hours pass. Jayne asks, "are we there yet?" Jim says not yet, "I really wish you would not ask, (really miffed) I will tell you when you are there." Jayne by this time is very very tired, hungry, and needing to go to the bathroom.
"Jim, I really need to stop", Jayne says. Where upon Jim reachs across and slaps her. "I told you, I would tell you when to stop." Jim, then says, "Besides, we are almost there." Jayne says just where are we going, through her tears. Jim replies, "We are going to see some of my friends for a great party." Jayne makes it to the destination but only barely.
They get to Jim's party. Many lovely and beautiful people are there. Suddenly Jayne becomes aware that Jim is no longer with her but with a very beautiful woman. She goes to Jim and says, "I think we need to go back now." Jim replies, " I made it to my destination, how you get to yours is your problem." The end
I realize this is a very simplistic story. However, the question is at what point in time should we take responsiblity for the abuse that is going on?
Or, is one so far into the abuse and the context of it, that you can only make decisions based on what you can do at that point in time. You might not be able to make the best decisions possible as far as others are concerned and are doing the best you know you can do. Is this excusable. That his power is so great, that stopping the car does not occur to her?
Or, do both of these things apply?
Inquiring minds want to know? :)
Patz
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Jim says to Jayne, let's take a trip. Jayne says, "Well I really can't because I have many obligations and I really don't have the time or money right now". Jim says, "Well, I really need you to take me to (wherever) because I need you." Pausing, Jayne says " well, ok" because it has always been that Jim needs her.
at what point in time should we take responsiblity for the abuse that is going on?
At this point: because I need you
A child needs its carer because it cannot survive on its own.
An adult can survive on their own.
When an adult says ‘I need you’, you have the choice of walking into that particular prison, or saying no to their demands, or walking away.
Jim does not need Jayne at any stage.
Jim is cruel, knows it and doesn't appear to have a problem with it.
Jayne needs to feel needed and complies.
It’s Jayne’s problem from the beginning.
Luego
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Luego: Exactly. Children are powerless individuals. Adults have power to do whatever. It is incumbent as an adult to do whatever it is you need to to for your children if they are in harms way. If it means jumping out of the car at break neck speed........so be it.
For example if you have a disabled child and this child has to have certian doctors, specials schools, special teachers etc........and you have to move to obtain these services...........only to have your SO other to tell you, you cannot move because it INTERFERES with his progress in his company, his activities, his organizations. Well guess what, the only recourse is to leave and do what you have to do as a mother.......no matter what to take care of that child.....it is my obligation regardless of the who, what and where of anyone else.....period. This is a true story. Patz
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Patz, the mother in your story is a very good, loving mother. She has my utmost respect for her actions. Too bad the SO was blinded by the idea that life is a competition. I guess he thinks by competing he gets to 'win'. Nobody has yet 'won' over death, as far as I know! luego
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GFN, if this person is upsetting your children, can’t you stop your children seeing this person?
If this person is telling lies about you, then you can tell people, including your children, the truth.
You say the consequences could be severe, of this person influencing your children? And yet you have said you’re not afraid of them yourself. Who would the consequences affect? Severe to me means blackmail, physical injury, criminal acts etc. If your children are in danger, you need to act, don’t you?
Perhaps but the person has no spine and will never face me. The person is a sneak and a liar and has no guts. I made a big mistake in confronting this person, awhile back, and that sent them off the deep end. I'm not the least bit afraid to speak my thoughts and feelings clearly to this person but this person will not face me. It is much easier (and possibly) more satisfying for them to try to destroy me by other means.
However, it sounds as though you are in the position of power here. It sounds as though they are lying about you. I don’t understand why this person has any influence at all? Where is their power? How could they try to ‘destroy’ you?
You don’t want to have communication with them – and you don’t have any.
You don’t want them in your life – and they’re not in your life, but they are talking to your children…
The other is upset and says he/she "can't stand it" when this "abuser" person "says bad things about" me, seems to avoid contact with my "abuser" (as much as possible), voices a desire to remain out of the conflict and states he/she feels "stuck in the middle".
If this child can avoid contact, presumably this is not an ex-husband/partner with access rights to that child. This is someone else who is probably related to you, as you know their past history, not a parent, so I would guess a sibling or cousin. If so, I would say again, can’t you stop this person seeing your children, particularly the child who is upset by any contact? luego
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Luego:
Advocacy takes many forms. You can be involved in organizations that help individuals escape from their circumstances to have a better life. Advocacy may take the form of self-sacrifice of your own personal comfort zone and finances. The ultimate goal is to provide the best possible life you can for your children.
I think there are many kinds of abuse, sins of omission and those of commission. If you fail to act, knowing that you can, it is an act of commission. If on the other had you are ignorant that the circumstances are harmful and the outcome for your children negligent, it is one of omission. In either case, the outcomes for your children are negative, with negative results.
Failing to act on my child's behalf would have relegated him to a life of sitting in a backwater town, with no resources, and a limited kind of life and maybe even life expectancy. To confront those things, I had to push through my own desires, my own confront zone to get those things.
The Pay Off: A better life for myself, a better life for my son. To have done otherwise would have been foolhardy and irresponsible. It came with pain, it came with work, but the desire and the knowledge overcame those considerations. Patz
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GFN:
Thanks once again for "getting behind me". You make me feel good and appreciated. You are a kind person whose viewpoints are inclusive, objective and rational, and whose observations and criticisms are reasoned and compassionate. I'll bet you're a great Mom.
I'm so sorry that your situation is in some ways beyond practical suggestions. I've seen enough of your responses to understand that from where you are, that destructive power of your ex is real. Not knowing the partuculars makes it impossible for me to offer more, but I respect your silence on the matter.
I do hope that the tables turn for you someday.
KAZ:
Thanks a lot. Understanding the mechanics of NPD and everything else under the personlaity disorder/mental illeness sun is helpful - I won't dispute that. More so, I think, is self-knowledge, at least in the long haul, and I don't think that knowledge of PDs is absolutely necessary to acquire that.
I had a very interesting experience when I did my dating exercise, which was before I learned about NPD. Seems I caught on to some things in absentia of that knowledge, because my separation had given me some tiwe to think about how I ended up where I was what thinking patterns I was using to guide me to a destructive place. It was a relatively short dating experiecne, but highly instructive.
I met a man, a lawyer. We hit it off initially quite well, because he was brainy and conversant in many areas (forget Brad Pitt, this makes me sit up and take notice above all other things), liberal in his politics & philosophies, and reasonably attractive (doesn't hurt), and, at first, seemingly quite confident and centerd.
I saw him for a total of 10 weeks - every other weekend (when hubby had visitation) and perhaps once for dinner every other week (about 25 times, altogether, more or less). I was frank about my situation, stating that not only was I not really ready to discuss a serious realtionship, but that my daughter was not ready and would not be for some time. I never introduced them, as I felt it was wrong to bring her into a situation that would only add to her confusion (she was 6/7 - had a birthday - at the time).
At first, things seemd okay. We had a great time, he treated me like a princess (always had flowers for me, always had wine although he did not drink, never let me pay for dinner, took me to wonderful places, arranged to do fun things that I enjoyed, conversed extensively, etc.) But then I noticed a few little trends that made me get more observant and less dismissive of potential problems.
For one, he was a "First In Class" graduate of a very prestigious law school (this was verified and true). A nice thing, certainly, and something to be proud of, but it become apparent after a while that he obsessed on this quite a bit - he rarely missed an opportunity to mention it (at least every other date), although he often described (fairly convincingly, at first) how he felt others were jealous of this. At the same time, his career path was not one that actually jived with that status - he was a minor partner in a one of those ambulance-chasing ppersonal injury firms (you know the ones - think of the most dramatic and pandering TV commercials of the lot).
On our second date, he misused the word "penultimate" to describe his favorit Thai restaurant (this actually means next to last). Now, this is a greatly misunderstood word, and probably 50% of highly educated folks actually misuse it to mean "the best". In fact, I used to use it incorrectly, too, until someone pointed it out to me. I questioned his meaning, assuming he might be using it correclty. He said Best Thai Place, and so I said "I don't think that's what penultimate means. I think it means "next to last". I assumed that he would say what I did when corrected: "Really? That's not what I have understood it to mean. I've have to check that out.". I later thanked that person for the tip - I'm happy if someone helps me learn something.
But no, he actually laughed at me and dismissed me, in a subtle way. I stuck to my guns and said, "no, I feel quite certain of this. Perhaps you might want to check it out".
He said then, "I know I'm right and I'll prove it to you. I'll bet you any amount of money - say 1,000.00 - and I'll win." I replied by saying "I'll take your bet, but I won't take advantage of you. Plus, on principle, I never bet more than I can afford to lose. How about 5.00?". At this point, I'm just amused, thinking he's kidding, right? No - he insists that we make it a big bet. I don't bite, however, and am still thinking this is a big joke.
Later we did look it up in "The Oxford English Dictionary - the BEST dictionary in the WORLD (according to him, no other dictionary will do)". The look on his face as he read it was one of horror and anger. He them grimly and abruptly got his wallet, fished out 5.00, and very grudgingly gave it to me, without making eye contact. I said, "Thanks." and then, it was immediately over and his mood went back to all the "good stuff", so I kind of dismissed my own experience and questioned what I had just seen. I had a lot of trouble with the idea that an adult, particularly one so seemingly accomplished and smart, could behave that way. I assumed the problem was me.
As time went by, it also became apparent to me that he was trying to "make me over in his own image". He had a sort of fascination with my "street smarts" and lack of formal education, and at one point made overture to formally teaching me himself - asking me to read, highlight (!!!), and "be prepared to discuss" a xeroxed copy of a Camile Paglia essay.
At first, I questioned my own perception of this, too. I'm used to feeling less-than, and also anxious to learn, because of my lack of formal training and education, so I tried, at first, to "go along" with it. I felt, in some unspoken-to-self way, that this was only natural, given his high-level academic standard. But even as I "went along" with it, I found that HE wasn't ready to have a serious dicusssion about the material - what he wanted was for me to ask him what everything meant. The whole exercise quickly fell apart and vanished as soon as it became apparent that I had a mind of my own about her work - that I agreed some places, disagreed others, added to still others. Just as I was really beginning to enjoy it, he stopped cold and became disinterested.
Over time, I found that he also tried to make himself my equal in my own semi-professional and professional disciplines (music, photo-work, grahphics) - not by producing work in those areas, but by showing me basic snapshots of his travels that were framed and hanging on his walls and saying, "I'm an artist, too". He notes that he has a great singing voice (true - lovely warm baritone), which then becomes "I am a musician, too."
By this point, I'm learning not to question myself, a little at a time. I gently say "Those are great photos. Art, to me, is about conceptualization, technique and commuication all married together". His reply is to ask me if I've ever been to Florence to study the Great Masters. Of course, I haven't, although I have viewed some of those works in books, visited my local museums and galleries, etc. He tells me that if I have not done so, that I cannot be an artist. I didn't say this, but I wondered how come nobody told Ansel Adams or Grandma Moses about this - surely they would have given it up, had he just explained their limits to them.
These are just a few anecdotes that I enjoy telling because they're so over the top, but there ended up being a lot of little signals in between.
Ultimately, I realized that not only was this guy not all he seemed to be, but that I was squishing my own self (I Voice) because he seemed to be so accomplished and knowledgable.
Even after I bailed, he showed all the signs of NPD (clinging, pleading, cajoling, bribing, blaming) - for almost another 1.5 years. I was still getting messages and e-mails once in a while long after my husband and I reconciled. Even that fact did not deter him for a long while. Eventually he gave, but mostly because I finally replied to an e-mail after a long silence, indicating in "police language" that he must stop all communication immediately. He's lawwyer, so he got what I was saying and quit.
The point in all this, aside from the fact that I enjoy the stories sometimes from a head-shaking and eye-rolling point of view, is that I did not have to know anything about NPD, or it's mechanics, to avoid this one. Simply being in a position to look at him with the eyes of someone who is not ready, not feeling that needy in-love stuff, and not especially vulnerable to whirlwind romance was enough. That combined with my determination to never be devalued that way again.
While I would like to think that it was all because I was so great and rocked his little world so hard, the truth is that
it was all about him, not me. Even though he went out of his way to be generous, accomodating, affectionate and all that - it was really more about positioning himself as the powerful half of a relationship, and his idea that he could eventually make me into an ideal partner who reflected well on him. He looked at me not as another person, but as a good-quality lump of clay. I had all the right attributes, if only he could arrange them to suit his fantasy. The real me meant little more than a threat.
I will grant that having learned about the disorder - and especially the contiinuum parts - have really helped me understand it academically. But it really was just about truly hearing myself, in the end. It was my own voice and experiences, and not the (potential) disorder that REALLY instructed me. I think if I had been in what I formerly thought of as a "healthy" place between relationships, I might have fallen for it.
That would have been truly hellish.
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Patz - that's a great story. To me, it highlights Jayne's reluctance to trust herself, value herself, and to demand consideration and respect for her needs - even to question that her own needs are as legitimate and important as Jim's.
I think Jayne might be squashed by even the most well-meaning person of confidence, almost as easily. If she doesn't learn to speak affirmatively, she may go on, after Jim, to a kinder, more compassionate person, but that will not change her experience much.
I agree with Luego that the most important element in this story is Jayne's behavior, not Jim's.
T
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Re: dates with insecure, wierd attorney.
He showed red flags almost instantly about what a fragile, insecure, temperamental, controlling person he was. I'm surprised you stuck around as long as you did, and tried to "discuss" things with him. I don't know whether or not he has a personality disorder but he was obviously a screwed-up individual. I think he kept pursuing you because you didn't dump him after one or two dates. I imagine he had a very difficult time getting women to stick around, and if he found a "live one" he would cling to her with every bit of energy he had.
bunny
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P.S. I would not, on a date, tell someone they misused a word. It's kind of shaming. I'd tell them after I knew them better and we had some foundation of trust. OTOH, you saw the ugly side of this guy immediately by so doing. So it was helpful.
P.P.S. I also misuse the word penultimate and now I won't anymore. Danke.
bunny
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My theory is the better I know myself, the harder I try to give out "I'm not prey" signals, the more I do to keep myself from being mentally and emotionally vunerable, the better. I think it's me that attracts the type and it's me that has to change to decrease the changes of repeating that. I also think, some of it is just chance.
Let's face it, sometimes hunters are just good hunters and sometimes prey is just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Can we really protect ourselves from those who behave like this by constantly scanning others for signs, behaviours and traits?
I think this is the right track, but I've decided that it's me that is attracted to that type. Otherwise, I would not end up there. I'm trying to think of myself not as the passive attractor, but at least as equally the active attractee.
It sort of sucks to say that, paints not such a smart picture of me, but as I consider it that way, I realize that the "healthy" narcissistic qualities, which I lack in many ways, are attractive to me and I do look for them.
By these qualities I mean confidence, social ease, ambition not screwed over by fear, an ability to like one's self despite flaws, etc.
However, because my intimate familiarity with those qualities in "healthy" form, either from within or from role-models, is lacking and/or half-formed, I cannot as easily tell the difference on the superficial level. My distorted view of myself (Jayne, perhaps) leads me to have distorted views of others.
I'm trying to learn to protect myself not by scanning others, but really scanning me in my responses to to others.
If something feels really great, I try to ask me WHY...and to require myself to pinpoint exactly what feels good. If something feels bad, I ask the same.
Sometimes, I am surprised by my answers, especially efter giving it a second and even third thought, in an effort to not let myself get away with superficialities and personal maxims.
This has been really a interesting approach, and helps me get to know myself better.
T
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This is really a thought-provoking thread.
Hi Luego: GFN, if this person is upsetting your children, can’t you stop your children seeing this person?
No I cannot.
If this person is telling lies about you, then you can tell people, including your children, the truth
.
How would you suggest I do that with the child that does wish not talk about it?
I could spend an eternity running around trying to correct the stuff that's being said. This would be rather draining, I think. Do you really think it is possible to reverse a smear campaign? I don't. I think it's a waste of energy. I do my best to correct mis-information with those who bother to ask and with my children, when it is appropriate and when they are comfortable talking about stuff, which with the one, as I've said, that isn't very often at all.
If your children are in danger, you need to act, don’t you?
The danger is emotional damage to the child who is pulling away, who is being convinced of untrue information, who will not have the relationship with me that would have been, had this person not been interested in harming our relationship. The danger is emotional damage to the other child, who feels torn, who just wants to be a kid and stay out of adult stuff, but who is being used as a pawn. The danger is emotional damage to me, watching it happen and not being able to stop it, possibly losing the relationship with one child, trying to comfort the other, and as time goes by, seeing the emotional damage caused. Severe, would be the loss of the relationship with the one child, another who grows up confused and feeling used and may act out. You may not believe that I cannot stop this person but I am telling you the truth. You may think there must be some recourse I could take but there isn't. I cannot stop this person.
However, it sounds as though you are in the position of power here.
I have power over my own life, you are right. I suspect that this person thinks that if they can manage to allienate my children against me, it will destroy me. But........I have already made up my mind that if that happens, I will not perish. It will hurt, that's for sure. I will never stop trying to communicate with my children and I will never give up hope that some day they will see what's real. So, yes, I have a lot of power. I have the power to decide that and work at making the best of it all.
Patz: I think you asked, when do we take responsibility for abuse?
To me that means, when do we take responsibility for allowing the abuse to go on? (and for our behaviour during the abuse)?
My answer is that if we have any ability to intervene, we must do so as soon as we recognize the abuse. If we don't have the ability to stop the abuse, we must do our best to counter the effects. The trick is recognizing it to begin with and being able to act. Did Jayne recognize the abuse? Was she aware of being used? Did she realize she was allowing herself to be used?
There are some circumstances that exist where one is indeed trapped. If you are a woman in a physically abusive relationship with a person you believe is capable of murder, then you, and only you, can decide to risk your life by trying to escape. People get killed trying to do that, sometimes and so....maybe some decide to remain there because it is the better of two demons? I cannot find it within my heart to condemn such a person. I have not stood in their shoes. I have not needed their courage. I have not been terrorized into stagnation.
Thank God.
Patz, I admire your courage to act as you did for your children and your decision to do without, in order to make their lives better. You are a fantastic mom! If I could do that for my children and fix this, I would.
Hey T: Even though he went out of his way to be generous, accomodating, affectionate and all that - it was really more about positioning himself as the powerful half of a relationship, and his idea that he could eventually make me into an ideal partner who reflected well on him. He looked at me not as another person, but as a good-quality lump of clay. I had all the right attributes, if only he could arrange them to suit his fantasy. The real me meant little more than a threat.
I bet it was this realization that helped you decide to quit seeing this fellow?
...my determination to never be devalued that way again.
Wasn't this Jayne's real trouble? Her needs were less valuable in her mind than his? I think it's good to try to give and be generous to others, to be unselfish and put our needs asside, sometimes, to help someone in need. But there is a fine line between gererosity and being a door mat, or at least, a line that needs to be defined clearly in our own minds and we have to find ways to recognize the line.
You are a kind person whose viewpoints are inclusive, objective and rational, and whose observations and criticisms are reasoned and compassionate. I'll bet you're a great Mom....I'm so sorry that your situation is in some ways beyond practical suggestions...
Thankyou, T, for such kind words, which I'm sure I only live up to some of the time. I'm human and flawed and I can be weak.
I confidently believe in two things:
Good eventually overpowers evil.
And
What goes around....comes around.
GFN
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Hey T: Quote:
Even though he went out of his way to be generous, accomodating, affectionate and all that - it was really more about positioning himself as the powerful half of a relationship, and his idea that he could eventually make me into an ideal partner who reflected well on him. He looked at me not as another person, but as a good-quality lump of clay. I had all the right attributes, if only he could arrange them to suit his fantasy. The real me meant little more than a threat.
I bet it was this realization that helped you decide to quit seeing this fellow?
Yes and no. Believe it or not, this fella didn't hurt me in the least - in large part because my mindset was so different thatn it might have been were I not in a place of self-examination. If I had just been on the usual looking for love quest of the ordinary single, I really might have missed it before it was too late. But I wasn't.
I enjoyed the ride in many ways, tough as he could be about some things. He was all the good parts, too - and that is the majority of what was visible unitl some weeks had passed. His wierdnesses unfolded a little at time, in an isolated incident her and there.
I hung in there for those weeks for several reasons - one, is that you can't really make too many judgements based on a couple of encounters, and I should probably point out that the "breaking it off" part took a good 2.5-3 weeks.
I think one critical thing is that I've always been more about long-term commitments and never really about dating (I've had three long-term relationships since adolesence - 4 years, five years, and going on 14 with my husband). - so this unconscious idea that I could see someone for a little while, making neither a snap judgement or a quick commitment but rather feeling it out gradually was kind of new for me.
The largest issue stated and felt by me at the time of break-up was really simple incompatibility - his style did not really mesh with mine, our objectives were different, and I just couldn't stand the controlling behavior. I was able to bust him on that stuff, and receive a pledge to change, but I really didn't believe him - I knew better by then. 40-something men (& women) don't usually change unless they experience something earth-shaking.
Overall, I did like him very much, and would have been thrilled if we could have remained friends. He could not handle that, though, so I had tyo tell him that we couldn't be friends. He wouldn't walk away on his own.
One should probably consider that I was 26 when I met my husband - and 36 when I met this fella, so there was not only my basic state of affairs influencing my thinking, but also just relative maturity and experience.
I think it was the first time in all of those realtionships where I entered the door thinking about my own needs. It did make a big difference.
T
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I hung in there for those weeks for several reasons - one, is that you can't really make too many judgements based on a couple of encounters, and I should probably point out that the "breaking it off" part took a good 2.5-3 weeks.
Yes one can make judgments about a person right away. They usually throw up red flags at the first encounter. This guy's floral tributes, etc., were one red flag, as you'd told him you weren't ready for a relationship. He was still coming on way too strong.
Overall, I did like him very much, and would have been thrilled if we could have remained friends. He could not handle that, though, so I had tyo tell him that we couldn't be friends. He wouldn't walk away on his own.
From your description, I'm wondering how you'd be thrilled to have this individual as a friend. He sounds like someone to stay far away from.
bunny
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Hey T: Quote:
Even though he went out of his way to be generous, accomodating, affectionate and all that - it was really more about positioning himself as the powerful half of a relationship, and his idea that he could eventually make me into an ideal partner who reflected well on him. He looked at me not as another person, but as a good-quality lump of clay. I had all the right attributes, if only he could arrange them to suit his fantasy. The real me meant little more than a threat.
I bet it was this realization that helped you decide to quit seeing this fellow?
Yes and no. Believe it or not, this fella didn't hurt me in the least - in large part because my mindset was so different thatn it might have been were I not in a place of self-examination. If I had just been on the usual looking for love quest of the ordinary single, I really might have missed it before it was too late. But I wasn't.
I enjoyed the ride in many ways, tough as he could be about some things. He was all the good parts, too - and that is the majority of what was visible unitl some weeks had passed. His wierdnesses unfolded a little at time, in an isolated incident here and there.
I hung in there for those weeks for several reasons - one, is that you can't really make too many judgements based on a couple of encounters, and I should probably point out that the "breaking it off" part took a good 2.5-3 weeks.
I think one critical thing is that I've always been more about long-term commitments and never really about dating (I've had three long-term relationships since adolesence - 4 years, five years, and going on 14 with my husband). - so this unconscious idea that I could see someone for a little while, making neither a snap judgement or a quick commitment but rather feeling it out gradually, with no commitment clock ticking in the background, was kind of new for me.
The largest issue stated and felt by me at the time of break-up was really simple incompatibility - his style did not really mesh with mine, our objectives were different, and I just couldn't stand the controlling behavior. I was able to bust him on that stuff, and receive a pledge to change, but I really didn't believe him - I knew better by then. 40-something men (& women) don't usually change unless they experience something earth-shaking.
Overall, I did like him very much, and would have been thrilled if we could have remained friends. In some ways, I had more just plain fun with this guy than you can shake a stick at - and I have some really fond memories of him. That part was great! He could not handle that, though, so I had to tell him that we couldn't be friends, eventually - breaking up with him in another way after a few more weeks. He wouldn't walk away on his own.
One should probably consider that I was 26 when I met my husband - and 36 when I met this fella, so there was not only my basic state of affairs influencing my thinking, but also just relative maturity and experience.
I think it was the first time in all of those realtionships where I entered the door thinking about my own needs, more so than about being in love or being loved or finding true happiness. It was more like "Okay. So do I like? What don't I like?". It did make a big difference.
I suppose if I was scanning for NPD signs, I wouldn't have had all the fun parts and the opportunity to get to know myself through this experience.
And no, bunny - he wasn't all that desperate - he had had plenty of dates a marriage and a three year shack up under his belt when I met him. So he wasn't completely inept with women, he was just unsuccessful. I think I was so attractive to him because of his erroneous idea that he could shape me to be a better version of his PhD women - one educated by him, rather than by the university - one as comfortable on the shooting range as in the Halls of Justice. What he did not get was that the qualities he really aprreciated in me -independence, curiousity, adventurousness (and maybe a couple of other things, too) - would have vanished under such tutelage.
Believe it or not, I'm not an ugly, desperate girl myself - falling for anyone who gives me special treatment. I've had special treatment before from desperate and non-desperate men alike, so that by itself, while charming, was not really influential.
In the end, my husband knows me best. He might bring flowers, but he also bring screwdrivers - because he knows what I like and doesn't think he has to tell me what I like. Whatever else I can say about the rest of his stuff - that's a good thing and I'm grateful for it.
He actually does appreciate me for me, unless he's in one of his "Adventures on the Continuum". Then, for a time, he does not recognize me.
T
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oops...sorry about the double post.
bunny, I'm beginning to think you're just kind of contrary and don't really want to like anyone who isn't perfect.
I could see the fun and good parts of this guy because I was THERE. Even in my "lengthy and abundant" posts I can't spell out every single detail for you. You should let your imagination kind of fill in the blanks on some things, and maybe assume that there were some mighty good parts balancing it out, as is true.
It's just an illustration and a funny story and does not have to be deconstructed as a pathological event - it wasn't. It was an experience that many HEALTHY people have. I dated someone for a few weeks. I liked some things, I did not like some things. I broke it off when what I did not like outweighed what I did like. And - I learned from it.
Are you trying to make me feel bad? Like I'm doing everything all wrong? Like I'm some kind of Moron because I don't think getting flowers, all by itself, is a sign of pathology? I don't think I am. I'm not perfect, but I'm making good progress. How about you?
I would probably feel better if I heard once in a while from you: "Funny Story", or "Good Job, you learned something!", or "Hey, interesting way to look at it", or "Yes - listening to one's instincts is important - I find that XX and YY healp me hear myself better", or "gosh - that's a bitter, hard experience - I feel your pain"
Throughout this post, I've heard nothing of you and your experiences, and how they have shaped your thinnking, for better or worse.
How about you share what you missed or what you saw in one of your relationships, or how you've worked on yourself?
Or are you right when you say you are only "interested", and don''t actually feel concern for any of these issues or the people affected by them?
T
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Patz, thank you for your posts which I keep thinking about. I am sad right now, but sad in a way I know, so it's okay. I will be back to post some other time, but I wanted to say thank you Patz. Whether you intended for your posts to resonate with me or not, they have. I wonder whether you intended it? My heart is sad but it gets stronger. luego
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T,
I'm just commenting on your ideas. I cannot give you the phrases you want to hear, I'm not hardwired that way. I haven't heard anything funny yet, or pathological. I did read some things that pushed my buttons, and sometimes I felt like protecting others who might be afraid to disagree, and some feeling of intellectual competitiveness, like "this person can match my steel." I understand that you think I'm calling you a moron and expect perfection from you. I'm not. If I thought you were a moron, I wouldn't have responded to anything you wrote. It takes quite a sharp mind to stimulate my mind and you are sharp-minded. If I thought people had to be perfect, I would be somewhere else, not on this group. I don't agree with everything you've said. You don't agree with me either. No biggie. And I have talked about myself. I don't think you noticed. And maybe not as much as you'd like, but I have to be that way. I have a husband who wouldn't want me to talk about him. I've had bad experiences in the past posting about my problems with other family members so I mainly share that only through private messages. Sorry but I have to protect myself in that way. If there's something specific you'd like to know about me, a PM is the best way.
In general, I was seriously emotionally f****ed up from childhood until I was in my 30s. I had a lot of borderline behaviors and tendencies. I was a mess but managed to function at work, pay rent, etc. My way of acting out was to get into minor car accidents. I had a therapist whom I loathed so much that I finally broke my foot in her office so I'd have an excuse to leave her. I didn't even know that I was allowed to leave a therapist. She was very angry and tried to get me to return but I didn't. A lot of other stuff...no contact with family for about six years....mother disowned me for marrying a non-Jew...marriage was poor decision anyway...divorce...yada yada...reconciliation with mother...more therapy...second marriage...couples therapy...N-inlaws (yes, N) finally deteriorated and died. Right now my main concerns are some small children in the family but they are the ones I can't talk about.
At some point I went to night school and got a masters in "counseling psychology" but didn't pursue that as a career. I wanted desperately to know how therapists did their job because I was so intimidated by them and yet I wanted to obtain some therapy. This started my intense interest in psychoanalysis, specifically object relations. I'm not in psychoanalysis and never have been, but I am in therapy, permanently, as far as I'm concerned. And I have probs with the therapist (negative transference) but I think he's okay. We're discussing my negative feelings about him, how disappointed I am in him.
My big revelation (like your I-voice, possibly) was learning about other people's internal worlds. I thought everyone had the same reactions to things. I thought everyone was extremely angry. I thought everyone was a closed book who would keep me out. Now people are an open book and I get what is going on. This was important to me, as I had so many mistaken ideas that I'd overreact to things all the time. Plus I took in everyone's projections like a sponge and reacted to them.
I am very very concerned about small children and adults whose child-parts are very powerful in their lives, so they can't protect themselves like an adult would. For others I am mainly interested and maybe not so much concerned about them. They seem to be doing okay.
bunny
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Luego:
My heart is sad but it gets stronger.
I'm sorry to hear that you are sad and I hope you feel better soon.
GFN
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Luego, GFN and Hello All:
It is indeed sad to recognize you have spent years spinning your wheels. However we, depending on your health, have a long time to live and can create something different. Luego it was a slow realization on my part no matter how much I accomodated my husband's interests, trying to find solutions that would accomodate him, that was going to change my or my son's circumstances. Sadness indeed overtook me, but I had to put that aside because my child's quality of life depended upon it. It is ok to be sad, it is ok to grieve, there is no time table for any of us to get through the various stages of grief. You must, just as I did, begin to look at yourself as someone as a resource by virtrue of your experience. I have to admit I would like to have an life instruction book, and I must interject here, my faith in God helped to get me through the very lowest . Our experiences tell us what our past has been and we can use that to shape our future. I have run across an adage by someone one that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and getting the same results. Relationships with N's fall into this catagory.
To GFN: I agree that a lot of people are trapped. I think my own mother fell into that catagory. She had no education, no resources, her own dysfunctional family......essentially no where to go. My father used all these things against her. On the times I came home, after being married, I tried to encourage her to seek help, to live with her sisters, anything to get her out of the emotional abuse. However, she had lived in that situation some 40 odd years. Looking back, my expectations far exceeded her abilities to do anything about her situation. I even offered for her to move out of town, to live with me. She had been so brow beaten.......it was to the point I felt she was suffering from the "Stockholm syndrome". Identifying with her tormenter to such an extent that her ego no longer existed. She was totally emeshed into the N way of life.
As children, I remember how she tried to protect us from the emotional abuse. We were in constant fear of making the wrong remark, not keeping the house appropriately, not kow towing to his relatives......the list goes on and on. I can only say the hyper-criticalness left its mark. Nothing was ever good enough for him, nothing. Mother tried and she took the brunt of it all. I can remember just as a flash back......coming home from middle school........walking down the sidewalk toward our house. There was an amblance parked down the street......in my line of sight I thought it was parked outside my house. I ran the entire way home thinking that something horrible had happened to my mother.....that my father had finally done it. It did not occur to me that it JUST might be parked out someone else's house. Such was the case. It sort of gives you a window on the mindset of how I viewed my father and his abuse toward my mother. Totally terrorizing. She was trapped and I really was a parent to her, because she had no internal resources on which to draw. I do not blame her for not leaving........it was the 50's, there was no place to go. Many women in that time just faded away. You are probably doing the best you can in your circumstance. Just reach out to as many resources as possible to sustain you and your children. I am in no way critical of how or what you are doing. We all do the things we need to do to survive. Just protect your children as much as you are able to do. Patz
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Hi T,
"I will grant that having learned about the disorder - and especially the contiinuum parts - have really helped me understand it academically. But it really was just about truly hearing myself, in the end. It was my own voice and experiences, and not the (potential) disorder that REALLY instructed me. I think if I had been in what I formerly thought of as a "healthy" place between relationships, I might have fallen for it."
Absolutely agree with you on this one. When I separated from my H I didn't know about narcissism, I was listening to myself. As I said, finding out that IT had a name helped me to process what had happened and make some sort of sense out of it. And most importantly, it strengthened my resolve to stay away from him because I had learned that he would never change. This single fact is what kept me with him for far longer than I should have, I thought that he/our marriage would 'improve'. Can't say for certain, but had I known about the tenaciousness of his narcissism while I was still with him, I maybe would have given up earlier.
Great story about the lawyer; it gives me hope that I'll be able to weed them out with ease as I get back into the world. (I've been a bit of a recluse the last few years!).
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Hello everyone:
Patz wrote to Luego: You must, just as I did, begin to look at yourself as someone as a resource by virtrue of your experience.
That is such helpful advice. Ofcourse I can pay attention to it too. I have experiences and by virtue of them, I must look at myself as someone who is a resource. In other words, I must depend on myself (and that is because no one else is going to protect me from the N's of the world, or from my whatever I do to allow some people to hurt me, (or from, as T said, whatever it is that attracks me to the wrong people???). So, I must look out for myself and I must do so by resourcing information from my experiences (plus whatever I can learn that is helpful and store my resourse bank-heehee).
To GFN: I agree that a lot of people are trapped. I think my own mother fell into that catagory....Identifying with her tormenter to such an extent that her ego no longer existed.
So when this happens, the abused person, we might say, is no longer "able" to stop the abuse, and may not "recognize" the abuse as abuse (because they are so enmeshed with their abuser), right?
And.......children who grow up in such homes are left with the effects of it all.
Once I came to this realization.....the fact that my parent was trapped, it was much easier to forgive. We want to think that there is always a way out, that there is always something else that could be done, but sometimes, that is just not the case. The situation deteriorates to this point and it is too late for some who have tolerated abuse for too long.
I can remember just as a flash back......coming home from middle school........walking down the sidewalk toward our house. There was an amblance parked down the street......in my line of sight I thought it was parked outside my house. I ran the entire way home thinking that something horrible had happened to my mother.....that my father had finally done it.
I had an experience much like yours. I remember how much panic I felt and I had visions of the terrible scene I was about to find. I don't remember how old I was but I know I was a fairly small child. And later, even as an adult, I moved about 40 miles away, and if I heard on the nightly news that there had been a murder-suicide in the place my parents lived, I would feel a bit of the same panic, until I saw the house on TV, and was sure it wasn't their house.
I do not blame her for not leaving........it was the 50's, there was no place to go. Many women in that time just faded away
I don't either. Abuse wasn't even grounds for divorce here until 1969. I blame our "system" a lot more than my mother. Today is much better. There are shelters and people who will do their best to help. My hope is that women don't stay long enough to become so stuck. But the reality is probably not the case. There are still murder-suicides on TV and women being murdered, after trying to leave, or while trying to leave. Leaving is a choice that only the abused person can make.
You are probably doing the best you can in your circumstance. Just reach out to as many resources as possible to sustain you and your children. I am in no way critical of how or what you are doing. We all do the things we need to do to survive. Just protect your children as much as you are able to do.
Thankyou for your kind words Patz. I am doing that and I'm working on me so I can be the best I can be for them (and for me).
GFN
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GFN:
If it is anything I have learned over the years, nothing is as it seems. We see my instances of murders, suicides etc. where abuse is involved and say "Well, why didn't he/she leave". My mother had lived with my N father for such a long time, it did not occur to her there was a different way of living and thinking. It is only when you become exposed to different people, how they interact, that the questions start coming. As in: Well you know if I had done this with my N......this would have been the result.......and it did not happen with these people.........and it becomes a puzzle..........you realize that there is kindness, gentleness, consideration in other relationships. You want this for yourself and the contrast you experience becomes extreme. It is only then that you "awaken" to what your current experience is. Sadly my mother began to realize this only in her declining years. It was so sad to see.
GFN you can do those small things to protect your emotional mind and well being for yourself and your children. I found it useful to say to myself "ok, what positive, concrete things can I do for myself today for myself and child." If you think globally it is to overwheming. Just one constructive thing every day. It could be a constructive thought, doing something for someone else, whatever. These are thing the N has no control over. Pretty soon you realize that you are slowly eating away at the N elephant in the room.........and it will be gone. Patz
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I like the image of slowing working away at the elephant in the room, and eventually getting to a place where the elephant is gone and the narcissism ceases to be a controlling factor in your life - it's so much easier to deal with at the periphery. I work every day at trying to put the kids' N dad into perspective. I think in the course of several years he has gone from being the central focus of our lives to just being important in their lives, but someone who doesn't have much influence on their day-to-day activities. Instead their daily influences are a broad range of more positive people along with a few difficult ones - much healthier than the obessive quality Ns have. But I can't try to pretend he doesn't play a role, even in his narcissistic state, but I love to discover some of his traits in my kids absent the N -- the artistic talent absent the perfectionism, the mechanical adeptness minus the temper, and the physical affection without the manipulation.
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Hi all,
T wrote: My distorted view of myself (Jayne, perhaps) leads me to have distorted views of others.
How do you know your view is distorted? Do others disagree with your view? Does that make their view correct?
I'm trying to learn to protect myself not by scanning others, but really scanning me in my responses to to others.
That sounds like a good idea, as long as you're not obsessed about it. I think there is a grey area. I mean that we respond to others depending on many factors. Sometimes it's to do with our stuff and sometimes it's to do with their stuff. Sometimes it's us having a not so great day and thinking it's their stuff and sometimes it's them having a not so great day and giving us the impression they have stuff that usually isn't a big deal.
On the whole, scanning is good, as long as it isn't cemented in stone too quickly, imo.
If something feels really great, I try to ask me WHY...and to require myself to pinpoint exactly what feels good. If something feels bad, I ask the same.
I can see the advantage to doing this, in order to become self aware. I guess it's that grey area again that's coming to my mind.....when something just feels really great and there is no reason.....or times when one is unable to pinpoint exactly what feels good or bad because there are no specifics.....it's just a feeling, or an instinct.
Patz wrote: I found it useful to say to myself "ok, what positive, concrete things can I do for myself today for myself and child."
Thanks Patz. I do that too but it can't be too often, can it? Every day is another good goal.
Kaz wrote: But it really was just about truly hearing myself, in the end. It was my own voice and experiences, and not the (potential) disorder that REALLY instructed me.
Me too. I didn't learn about N until most damage was done. I sometimes wonder if I had of known, would I have been able to do anything to change the way things went? I have to be careful making such predictions because there is no way to know that.
Mirror2: I like the image of slowing working away at the elephant in the room, and eventually getting to a place where the elephant is gone and the narcissism ceases to be a controlling factor in your life.
I like it too. A little at a time. Takes patience and determination but it is doable.
GFN
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Hi All:
Sorry so silent; been suddenly busy with pressing projects (lots of my clients never seem to know they need something until the last minute! Sheesh!). Have read all your additions from the last few days and feel like I really get a lot out of this thread and all your comments and stories -and just the general sharing.
Unfortunately, I'm still a little buried, but I wanted to share something:
I know it's been daunting for some of you to hear me stay relentlessly on-topic re: I Voice and all that. BUT - it has concretely paid off to keep my thinking on track and hone my ideas about it all. Some real clarity is being brought about lately.
This weekend, my husband and I had some fairly major breakthroughs about subtext and hidden meaning in our response patterns to each other. Of course, our problems are not solved, but we do understand things a bit better, which will give us the tools to more effectively monitor ourselves and each other for the "real" issues.
One that's been particularly tough for me (and him, too, in another way), is his way of shutting me out when I am down or distressed - in even a run-of-the-mill-way (too much to do, things piling up, me making mistakes and feeling overwhelmed - ordinary in a busy, changing life). If I even look a little down around the mouth, it can provoke reactions in him from simple dismissiveness to rage. Of course, this makes me more down, and he sometimes tends to "kick" all the more hard the more down I become. I then become even more depressed, and so on. It's very self-perpetuating, and ultimately the original issue (my feeling a little down and needing some support) gets lost in the arguments and heartache about the dynamic and is never addressed. The whole process takes a couple of months to go from mildly frustraing to horribly painful, and it repeats whenever I start to wear thin.
This apparent lack of empathy is one thing that has kept me somewhat fixated on the NPD aspects, although at other times, about other things, he can be very supportive and loving. Difficult to understand.
Sometimes, when he's in this hostile, bullying sort of mode, I find myself thinking that he doesn't know me at all - he talks to me and about me as if we have never met, saying things that are contrary to who I know I am. This is major source of conflict for us and depression/anxiety for me, especially because it is so at odds with much of his other behavior, priming me to withdraw and "act-in", as I learned to do as a child.
After all this ruminative "self-training", it finally hit:
He really isn't talking to me, nor raging at me, nor talking about me at all. I'm not even really part of the equation, not as a discrete individual.
He's talking, raging, screaming and aiming bullets at his Mother.
His mother became depressed when he was a kid, to the extent that he lacked food (once had only onions for an entire week), did not go to school, lived in a cabin in Maine (Honorary Canada, for you Europeans) in winter with no heat, no electricity, no running water. In addition, she was not emotionally available to help him work through his grief over his parent's divorce, nor would she allow him to see their father (who just gave up and didn't really try all that hard), refused child support, did not get welfare or food stamps, did not work - did not try. She gave clear signals to my husband that she could not be approached about his fears or complaints, either. Long, sad, story.
We talked about this extensively over the weekend, even discussing whether he might be re-creating the scenario (tearing down my defenses against depression, so I could be HER) so he can finally express his anger and hurt that she would allow her depression to interfere with his ability to even EAT, let alone feel like a valued human being and a loved child.
He talked about how he has always felt that I was powerful and could do anything I set my mind to (usually true under good conditions, then I am bull-by-the-horns pragmatic), and that he alwyas has felt safe with that as his mindset, and how if I show cracks in my armor he thinks he does re-visit that emotional place of fear and helplessness that was his childhood.
I, too, was able to look at the way that I withdraw and stop being fully competent and involved in my life when I feel that my needs and feelings are being overlooked and dismissed, the way I'm really responding to my mother's rages and insults and abuse, how I cannot stand for an angry adult to be within 6 feet of me or I'm at risk of shrinking out of the picture altogether, sinking into a pit of self-hatred so deep I can't see light, so great is my fear of being physically hurt (he has never done this) and emotionally shredded. Basically, this is me "beating (them) to the punch" - kicking myself into a small ball FIRST, a way of maintaining my own control over the situation (obviously flawed, but functional for the survival of the child that I was).
In a sense, we are better equipped to help each other than anyone else - but equally, if we are not careful, we can inadvertently push buttons all over town - never really knowing that's what we're doing until we're in crisis mode and we're forced to examine it . I feel fortunate that he can examine these things with me from time to time. While not ideal to have to wait until it's out of control, at least the discussion eventually happens and things "right" themselves for a time, until it's time to uncover the next kernel of truth.
It was a very emotional weekend for us in this way. I'm a little drained and taken aback by the intensity of it all, but I'm feeling much more hopeful - and a bit more like living my life with some enthusiasm and concern (lacking lately).
Thanks all for listening.
T
(Thank you Bunny).
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He really isn't talking to me, nor raging at me, nor talking about me at all. I'm not even really part of the equation, not as a discrete individual.
He's talking, raging, screaming and aiming bullets at his Mother.
That's what our therapist told me. She also advised me not to discuss it with him. Instead I should call her. In our case it was better not to talk about "The Mother." In your situation it seems to have worked.
I once brought her a photograph of two Indian papooses in their cradles (or whatever you call them) crying vigorously. Our therapist said that was my husband and I, who were very scared/angry and didn't have parents to calm us down.
bunny
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Again, I feel fortunate. Lucky, because we both had some experience with therapy before we ever met, which means we're more open to discussion in calm times.
I read somewhere a long time ago that when couples fight, there are at minimum 6 people in the room - the couple and their four parents. Add another in the case of infidelity. In our cases, we can even add the grandparents, since we know how our parents were affected by them - and to a certain extent, great-grandparents (I know some incredible stories about my maternal Grandmothers). That makes a Grand Total of 31: Talk about a crowded house! Of course it's difficult to hear or be heard over the general cacophany...
I liked the thought at the time, but I am appreciating it in action more directly now, as we slowly uncover some of these destructive patterns and emotional habits.
Did your therapist offer a reason to pussy-foot around "Mother"?
Last night, I noticed (and commented positively) that my husband has taken much of our weekend conversations to heart and is behaving very differently in the natural and predictable conflicts with our daughter (11 this month, menstruating, changing rapidly and trying to figure out how to deal with all her powerful new emotions, impulses and desire for independence). He held my hand, told me "you're so smart - and right", and reiterated his commitment to paying attention to/curtailing his impulse to be her emotional peer rather than her parent, to model what he wanted from her rather than demanding it even while acting like an ogre. Then he thanked me for working at talking to him despite his defensive walls and acting out, for making him listen. It was a lovely moment.
Our conflicts seem to be on hiatus, too. Draining as it was, it was very helpful to have all those conversations. Our conflicts had been getting unmanageable, as were his with our daughter (principle reasons to come here and post myself into a corner of proper thinking!). There's still some fallout (I'm experiencing the withdrawal, depression/anxiety and the decline in competence/diligence), but progress can be made now that this particular barrier has been crossed. Unitl next time...
After we discussed his "success", I was trying to ask my husband if he thought discussing his childhood with his personal therapist was beneficial in a significant way - but my daughter finished her homework before I could get a comprehensive answer. then it needed to be about her for awhile, after which life in general took over.
I hope to pick that up again today.
T
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T wrote:
My distorted view of myself (Jayne, perhaps) leads me to have distorted views of others.
How do you know your view is distorted? Do others disagree with your view? Does that make their view correct?
I think my intellectual view of myself is more correct, but my emotional view is what is truly distorted. Thee consistent feedback of others helps me make this determination.
A couple of good examples:
I am a musician/singer/songwriter. I am actually well-thought-of, receive much positive feedback, have some fans, and am the only singer in my city who is allowed to work in one of my venues (others do not have the control required to work appropriately for this venue; they don't know how to check the Diva at the door and blend with the musicians). I have recorded with a grammy-nominated producer and rock band as a backing vocalist, have been on regular rotation on the radio, etc, etc, etc.
All that aside, I still FEEL incompetent and worthless unless I am actually doing the work. When I think about the next time I will go work, I FEEL certain that I am a big fraud and will fail. It is as if no amount of success will teach me to FEEL my value.
These negative feeling keep me from ambitiously pursuing what actually makes me happy in a real and significant way. I have never asked for work - I get all my work by word of mouth. Others must call me; I cannot bring myself to approach someone to ask for an audition or a gig, no matter how badly I may want it.
It is similar in my graphic design work (self-employed). I'm really decent at it and have a strong niche market (specialization). I have happy customers and get new customers regularly (same word of mouth principle). Obviously, if people happily pay me 50.00/hour for my creativity and competence, it's there.
but I do not FEEL it. Every job, just like being a musicain, I anticipate not with excitement, but with dread. I FEEL like "this is the time I will be exposed for the horrible fraud and person that I really am". Plus, I'm low-balling on the pay - my peers, many less skilled, in this city make 75.00 - 150.00/hour. I'm afraid to ask for fear of being laughed at!
Past employment situations have been similar. I've barely applied for jobs, even where I knew people, but always did well and moved up relatively quickly. However, this upward movement is only because someone approached me about taking a higher position; I've never asked for a promotion. Ditto for raises. I FEEL I don't deserve it and would look foolish if I inquired.
I've been fortunate that there are others who care enough and value my skills enough to make these things happen for me.
I'm very much a cripple in terms of doing it myself.
Thanks for asking and making me think about it out loud.
T
I even have a song about this feeling. Here's the first lines:
this broken down and rusted limousine
it carries you and me through alleyways
so littered with the dust of dreaming
and all the while the boulevard is glittering
and paved with gold and strolled upon
by those who know the art of seeming
(for whatever it's worth)
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T, I don’t do anything remotely coming close to your achievements. I feel inadequate when I measure myself against what you have written, deeply inadequate in terms of ‘doing’ things.
But I remember the impostor syndrome where we feel a fraud, whatever we do. Check: http://www.impostorsyndrome.com/
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Hi T and all:
But you said: "leads me to have a distorted view of others".
In what way, T? How do view others and what is distorted about it?
....that I am a big fraud and will fail...I cannot bring myself to approach someone to ask for an audition or a gig, no matter how badly I may want it....Every job, just like being a musicain, I anticipate not with excitement, but with dread. I FEEL like "this is the time I will be exposed for the horrible fraud and person that I really am....I've never asked for a promotion. Ditto for raises. I FEEL I don't deserve it and would look foolish if I inquired.
Do you realize that most of these are .....thoughts......not feelings?
This is stuff you are thinking (and maybe these thoughts are producing feelings inside of worthlessness, incompetence, unworthy of praise and recognition, .......smallllllll????
Just my thoughts for now T.
I do the same types of things sometimes. Think negative thoughts which produce negative feelings inside myself. The way I fix it is to:
a) Blatently tell myself to "stop it"
b) Substitute one positive thought, over and over, until I accept it.
c) Remind myself that I am not perfect and neither is anyone else.
Still.......habits are formed and maybe that's the whole trick? Maybe you will have to try to catch yourself having these thoughts and then put a stop to it? Over and over until a new habit is formed?
It helps me to think stuff through too T, and writing here forces me to do that. Your song has worth and value....doesn't it?
GFN
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Think negative thoughts which produce negative feelings inside myself. The way I fix it is to:
a) Blatently tell myself to "stop it"
b) Substitute one positive thought, over and over, until I accept it.
c) Remind myself that I am not perfect and neither is anyone else.
This is a coping technique which maintains the core problems, it does not solve them.
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T - Impostor Syndrome. More meat on the bones, a 6-page PDF:
http://www2.gsu.edu/~wwwaow/resources/ip_issues.pdf
or a personal story or two:
http://www.motivationalworks.com/books/index.cfm?bookid=4&ID=18
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But you said: "leads me to have a distorted view of others".
In what way, T? How do view others and what is distorted about it?
Do you realize that most of these are .....thoughts......not feelings?
My distorted view of others, especially in "peer" situations causes me to FEEL that they are inerrantly superior to me. Sometimes this is true (there are performers and writers and artists that blow my doors off, which is okay by me. I learn from them.) - but often it is not. In the cases of not, I have difficulty FEELING that I am an equal or even better (which is also sometimes true), although I sometimes find out later through hard evidence that I, in fact, am equal or superior at whatever task is in question.
It is, I guess, my immediate assumption that all comers have it over me, and it doesn't occur to me to think or feel otherwise until I see evidence to that effect. Sometimes I can recover from this, sometimes not. If it has gone too far by the time I catch on to myself, it can be next to impossible to right the situation, because I've already given up my power in the relationship. With musicians, especially, this can be hard (talk about narcissism - it's almost a prerequisite).
Perhaps in some ways, these are thoughts - and I do apply my language moderation techniques to get me through difficult situations that flip these switches - but, as Bunny noted in an earlier post, feelings are physiological in nature, and I do often experience the physiological part before I am able to articulate to myself what the "inner voices" are up to. It is a kind of sweaty panic that varies in intensity according to the situation, and that "shrinking into small stillness" feeling comes as a natural part of that, too. That smallness is a time-honored and somewhat autonomic way for me to avoid harm (though I know it has to go - working on it).
I should note that I do not show these feelings publicly, aside from the fact that I decline to pursue lofty goals or assert myself loudly as a talented/skilled person (if I did show my feelings, I would not be as sucessful as I am now - no one would want to deal with that from a professional). Otherwise, I remain relatively silent and just about always do what I'm asked to do, unless I think it will cause me too much anxiety (I have turned down a couple of bigger opportunities, using lame excuses like timing and such as a cover). In fact, there is a possible such opportunity under casual discussion now, and I'm trying hard to figure out how to cross that bridge should I come to it.
I know pretty well the origins of these feelings - much from the Mother voice - who told me I could not achieve anything of the sort, who told me I too flawed and f*d up and bad and worthless and sick and selfish and.... No matter what I said I wanted to be as a child (musician, lawyer, archaeologist, etc), the answer was the same :"You'll never be anything at this rate, you're too x, y, and z" and/or "We all know you're smart, but you're x, y and z.".
I now know she was repeating pretty much the words of her own father and her own internal view of herself, although does not make it easier.
Dr. Grossman's essay on "liitle voice" pretty much sums that up, where he talks about how the little voice, so well trained by the loudly and adamantly dominating voices of the dysfuntional parents, does not WANT anything for self.
It's a process.
T
(thanks for the links- they look like they can be helpful!)
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T, I hope the links are helpful.
GFN, I will go a little further and say that the technique you use is one from your childhood. It is no longer appropriate or necessary.
There is no such thing as a bad or negative thought. There are simply thoughts (and feelings).
The key to getting rid of redundant responses is to understand why you continue to use them. For example, an abused child’s processes:
Thought: My parents are bad and don’t love me (unconscious thought: and I will die if they are bad and decide to leave me)
Thought: I need my parents to be good (unconscious thought: but they do bad things to me, therefore it must be the case that I am bad to be so punished).
Effect? Child grows up to believe that they are inherently bad but they deny this belief using a variety of techniques, some of which cause them to end up in prison, in psychiatric care, or in everyday denial.
With your technique in particular:
a) Blatently tell myself to "stop it" – denying your thoughts instead of understanding them.
b) Substitute one positive thought, over and over, until I accept it – because the alternative of examining what’s in your head is too frightening? We all experience fear. Courage is facing the fear, not suppressing it.
c) Remind myself that I am not perfect and neither is anyone else. - Agreed, striving for perfection is harmful. However, using other people’s imperfection to excuse yourself from thinking is a diversion.
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Have to ask, oh-provider-of-helpful-links - who are you? I never log in as anyone, but I've become known as "t" for troublemaker. I try to remember to at least sign off that way - do you have a preferred moniker so we know who is speaking and who we are replying to?
In GFN defense, while I believe your points are valid, this technique is a good step in the right direction and can get you through some rather stinky moments, even if it does not globally solve the problem. Analogous to labeling everyone N as a temporary band-aid solution (this is why I'm trouble) :-).
My excessive ruminations are focused, I think, on the next step - What am I really saying/feeling, is it valid. and how can I change the pattern in a deep and complete kind of way?
Use of language is primary ot all of us, so choosing careful language can be a good intermediate defense. Even better, to me, is carefully interpreting the language of others as well our own (and in contrast to each other) - and those of the inner voices.
Anyhoo - Who are you? Who, who, who who? I really wanna know...
T
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Why? Does it matter? Who do you want me to be? Shall I be...
Guest With No Name ...... GWNN... sounds like a radio station?
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Hello again everyone:
Guest wrote: This is a coping technique which maintains the core problems, it does not solve them.
I think you are right, it is a coping technique but I disagreee that it maintains the core problems. Otherwise, I would still feel bad about myself, wouldn't I? But I don't. By substituting positive statements/thoughts and habitually practicing the technique, I think and feel better about myself (which is the core problem-poor self-esteem--to begin with, isn't it?). For me it was.
Effect? Child grows up to believe that they are inherently bad...
Yes..for me that was true. I thought I was, as T has described, worthless, valueless, would never achieve my goals etc....due to listening to and believing that parental voice that spoke often and thus became a habit in my head.
There is no such thing as a bad or negative thought.
Really? I seriously disagree. If I think:
"I'm bad" or "I'm useless" or "I'm incompetent" or etc
What am I doing then, just having a nice thought about myself?
And afterwards, what will I feel?
IMO, I'm having a negative thought or thoughts about myself and by doing so, I am reinforcing the idea of my worthlessness and I mightl feel sad or disgusted or frustrated or angry as a result. This is not a positive state for me.
If I think: "I'm ok" or "I did a good job of that" or "I can do it" or etc
Aren't I just having a nice, positive thought about myself? And after that...what will I feel? Maybe kind of good or positive or happy or some feeling that is helpful in reinforcing the idea of my value, my worth and to solve the problem...increase my self-esteem.
The more I think good thoughts, the better I feel. My objective is to feel better. I felt not so great, to begin with, because I thought less of myself than really was the case. I wasn't nearly as bad as I thought I was!
We are all valuable people. Thinking otherwise encourages feelings that, if repeated often enough, keep us in what I call: negative mode. We begin to dislike ourselves. We feel "small". We lose faith in ourselves.
I don't think this technique is no longer appropriate or necessary. I find it helps me to enjoy my life and feel good and happy. I think it is a useful technique, for me, and there are many other people I know who agree.
It was not something I knew to do as a child. Quite to the contrary, I believed the negative things my parents said about me and I had many thoughts that reinforced their words (and so I felt low, sad, unworthy, frustrated often..and the biggie....stupid... etc). I believed much of what they said.
In young adulthood I read about this "technique" and really had to practice hard and often to form the "habit" of thinking good, positive thoughts about myself. For the most part, I do that now but sometimes, as I'm sure many people do, I slip up and get into "negative mode" for awhile. That's ok, as long as it doesn't go on and on.
It's good to deny negative, nasty, unrealistic thoughts about oneself, I think. It's different if I have said or done something wrong and know it (then I might look harder at the why's and how to prevent again's--but even then....berrating myself with derogator thoughts won't "solve the problem"). But "Im worthless"??? This isn't negative? This isn't unrealistic" You say it will help me in some way if I try to understand "why" I think those thoughts? Don't I already understand "why" I think like that? My parents drilled that junk into my head. That's "why" isn't it? I believed them. That's "why" right? Maybe there are more reasons but .....like excuses.....they really don't change a thing. What changes things for me...is choosing to think otherwise. Rejecting habitual negative thinking, especially if it is causing me harm.
....examining what’s in your head is too frightening?
What makes you think I'm afraid of this idea? How do you know this?
IMO, I already know what's there......many, many inappropriate ideas about what I'm not. Many ignorant, hurtful suggestions about what I will be and....many, many derogatory comments (negative words) that are and were not true...
I have no wish to examine that stuff because I know, realistically, those things aren't of use or value. My parents were sick people and so....they said sick things.
I rejected some of it but some stuck, and I work at rejecting that too. I like my new habit (technique) much better than my old one.. of just accepting their words (most of the time) and allowing them to ring in my head. When I hear myself regressing to that type of thinking now...I try to say: "Stop it" and insert something true and I feel good about it.
Works for me.
T wrote: In GFN defense, while I believe your points are valid
Thanks, T. I believe everyone's points are valid. I just choose which ones I accept and are of use to me, as I'm sure, we all do. Positive thinking techniques are a good thing, in my book. Maybe not for everyone.
GFN
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It does not matter in the sense that I will ever "know" you - I won't, with near certainty. But it is helpful, when multiple voices are on the thread (sometimes gets busy) - just in terms of keeping straight who I'm listening/talking to....
Been through the desert on a guest with no name (more 1970's pop)?
S/he who shall not be named (cheap H. Potter reference - I am a Mom, so I know these things)?
GWNN (gwen? gawain?) is fine, though. I didn't use one at first, either - but then I realized that it creates a certain confusion when there are so many Guests.
Just a thought.
T
The links ARE very interesting, BTW. The meaty PDF in particular. Thanks.
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Thanks, T. I believe everyone's points are valid. I just choose which ones I accept and are of use to me
I look at it this way:
When my immediate (right now) problem is behavioral (this is how I've managed to do what I've managed to do), I take a behavioral approach. GFN's solution is behavioral (stimulus/response, Antecedent-Behavior-Consequense). Behavioral strategies can work very effectively for changing thought-behaviors and thought-habits.
On the other hand, when I know my problem is long-term and insidious, and responds well (enough to increase/maintain good functioning and reasonable happiness) but not completely reliably to the behavioral approach, I use the psychoanalytic (why? Where from? In what way is the current physiological sensation similar/dissimilar to earlier experiences? Are you re-creating the situation in an effort to resolve it or merely reacting in a habitual fashion? Is there a Santa Claus?) approach in addition to.
Like some other arguments here, everyone is really right - depending on the circumstances and the immediate vs. long-term needs.
T
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T,
Yes the therapist told me the reason not to talk about my MIL to my husband. It wasn't advice about pussyfooting. There were very sensible reasons not to discuss MIL with my H. The reasons were very solid and I agreed with them. Things have been better ever since. My MIL is now deceased but I still don't talk about her.
re: the imposter issues. I think it's pretty common among artistic people to feel fraudulent, unworthy of high remuneration, apprehensive about performing, writer's block, etc. I'm not sure it needs to be overcome if you're performing at a level that is satisfying to you. Why does it have to go to the 'next level'? Maybe it could, but maybe it's okay where it is for now.
I would assume that it's very dangerous to ask for more money, better conditions, venues, or whatever, because that's like asking for different cabbage.
bunny
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Bunny - I did not mean to sound dismissive with the use of the term pussy-footing. Please disregard.
I'm just puzzled that the therapist would declare someting like that off-limits entirely (although I would understand advice of caution), but if you think it's valid advice and has helped, then so be it. Lacking details, I can't comment more. I'm sorry that even in death MIL is so powerful for your husband.
I'm satisfied that I'm performing/progressing as an artist as much as is reasonable to expect. My problem is how I FEEL when I am embarking on new projects (even repeating old ones) - my desires are at odds with my internal reactions which are at odds with known evidence.
Low-balling my rates is another expression of that...when evidence supports that the market will bear it and that I have the skills necessary to demand to be paid equally to my peers and I don't - there's a problem IN ME, not in the market or with my outer self (skills).
I'm sure, in some sense, I equate acceptance of my skills and rates with love, and rejection of either as withdrawal of love. Probably, as an unloved child, this is what is all boils down to, in every situation.
I'll never make Mother happy, will I? She'll never really love me or respect me no matter what/how much/how well I do, will she? And if Mother's not happy, no one is...(rhetorical questions).
What a screwball and difficult pattern that is to break, huh?
T
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So then T:
I FEEL certain that I am a big fraud and will fail. It is as if no amount of success will teach me to FEEL my value.
why?
Why do you think you keep having these thoughts, not matter how many times you perform successfully?
Why do you think you don't feel the value of them?
Where from?
Where are these thoughts "I'm a big fraud" and "I will fail" coming from?
In what way is the current physiological sensation similar/dissimilar to earlier experiences?
In what way are your current successes and lack of feeling valuable similar (dissimilar) to an earlier experiences? What feels the same about it?
Are you re-creating the situation in an effort to resolve it or merely reacting in a habitual fashion?
No matter what the answer.......what can you do to change things so that you are not re-creating "I'm a big fraud" and "I will fail" thoughts, so that you are not reacting in a habitual fashion, so that you are not always comparing to/trying to solve earlier experiences (but rather experiencing them in the now), so that the place where the thoughts are coming from does not have so much power over your current and future thinking, and so that the reasons why that is happening, insidiously, long-term...will no longer be an excuse?
I'm going to copy that paragraph and ask myself those things, the next time I'm in negative mode (prior to beginning my behavioural approach).
What the heck.
GFN
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I'm sure, in some sense, I equate acceptance of my skills and rates with love, and rejection of either as withdrawal of love. Probably, as an unloved child, this is what is all boils down to, in every situation.
I'll never make Mother happy, will I? She'll never really love me or respect me no matter what/how much/how well I do, will she? And if Mother's not happy, no one is...(rhetorical questions).
What a screwball and difficult pattern that is to break, huh?
T
GFN, the above self-quote is likely the best nut-shell answer - and dilemna - there is. I might go further to say that the physiological sensation is similar to my feelings of impending rejection/love witholding/punishment/emotional-physical abuse as a child. these things happened to me whenever I asserted my needs, preferences and desires - WANTS - and they differed from my Mother's ideas of what those should be or were threatening to her in some way.
It's the old cognitive dissonance trick - I know as an adult I'm not going to experience rejection most of the time, nor will it be that significant, in real terms, when it happens, but the feeling is just as opressing and frightening AS IF it would be so.
The worst part, for me, is sometimes sabotaging myself so I can fail (not to a huge degree, I generally recover quickly and get back on track) by procrastinating or avoiding - thus the re-creation part.
For example - I am never late in the creative work/output (I'm really fast) - but I am cyclically (when I'm in a period of anxiety/depression) late to bill my customers. My customers can be a little frustrated by this (can mess up their bookeeping cycle a little), but forgiving because they get the finished product on time and they like the work. I punish me by not getting paid for longer than is necessary, and by setting myself up to feel like a loser when I do eventually deal with it.
Weird, stupid head tricks.
T
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I love that supid word. It's so stupid (and silly).
So: ...these things happened to me whenever I asserted my needs, preferences and desires...
Might then, you practice asserting your needs, preferences and desires (set yourself up so you can win, so to speak). For instance, you must perform tonight (you need to earn a living, just like anyone). You prefer to be calm, relaxed, etc to help yourself do a good job. You want to enjoy the experience and your desire is to succeed and perform well.
What can you do, ahead of time, to help yourself feel calm, relaxed, etc?
What can you do to assert your needs? (not necessarily to anyone else...maybe just to yourself?)
What might help you to enjoy the experience to the fullest?
Your performances aren't happening to you.....you're making them happen.
If you do things to make them happen to the best of your ability, do you think you will succeed and perform well?
Once you perform well, what can you do to make sure you acknowledge this to yourself? (or do you think this is important?). How will you feel, if you perform well? What will you say to yourself?
The outcome, then, will be different from what you experienced as a child, probably, if you take steps to assert your needs, in the now, right?
I know as an adult I'm not going to experience rejection most of the time, nor will it be that significant, in real terms, when it happens, but the feeling is just as opressing and frightening AS IF it would be so.
Are you saying that when you experience rejection it feels opressing and frightening? Would you say this is an appropriate response to rejection?
What would be a more appropriate response (if there is one)? How much rejection, as an adult, have you experienced and how did you react?
The worst part, for me, is sometimes sabotaging myself so I can fail...
Isn't this a self-defeating, destructive behaviour? What can be done to change this? Who has to do the work?
Hey.....I've been there. You understand why you're doing stuff. Now it's time to decide what to do about doing stuff differently.
((((((((((T)))))))))))
GFN
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thanks, and a lzy 3 character HUG to you, too.
Actually, once I'm in the work mode, I'm happy as a clam and alll about the work. My regular gigs are very comfortable, and if I'm not relaxed when I start, I am by the 3rd or 4th song and/or the first half of the wine glass. Interesting to note: this is the Non-Diva Diva gig, where I get to be slightly invisible but still make lush and emotive and haunting sounds and read the lush and emotive and haunting verses of the greats like Johnny Mercer (I fancy myself sort of a Barrymore of Song- wink/giggle).
On the other hand, the Diva-Diva gigs make me happy once I'm DOING IT, so this isn't about coping with the actual event - it's more about coping with my feelings all the rest of the time. I don't have time to think about it at all when I'm performing, as it does (despite the fact that many non-musicians think it's as easy as breathing) require effort and concentration to do a good job. It's like being an athlete, really. The "not having time to think about it" is what makes it work - and letting others call me instead of the other way round is a function of that same thing.
In these areas, I feel I've done a really good job of addressing it behaviorally, and the resume supports that (even if it could be better under other conditions). It's just that the wounded child still lives with me and continues to devalue in anticipation of devaluation (she's nutty and sad, I am not).
Finding a way to become my own suitable replacement of a loving Mother is a daily fit-and-start process.
Just looking at myself honestly like this, out loud, helps.
((((GFN))))
T
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Thanks for the hug, T. Can we get/give too many hugs?
Ok....so this is the last post for me here today as I gotta get off here and do stuff.
Last question:
It's just that the wounded child still lives with me
So what are you going to do to repair her wounds?
To meet her needs? To satisfy her desires? To leave her in the past?
'Cus it's up to you, right? Otherwise, she'll stay as she is, won't she?
another hug, GFN
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After we discussed his "success", I was trying to ask my husband if he thought discussing his childhood with his personal therapist was beneficial in a significant way - but my daughter finished her homework before I could get a comprehensive answer. then it needed to be about her for awhile, after which life in general took over.
I'd leave it alone.
bunny
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I don't see your mind as wierd, twisted, nutty, sad, etc. There are parts of you that are probably terrified and enraged. That's pretty common in most people, although in your case the terror was really pretty horrific. My philosophy is to manage vulnerable parts of myself are well as I can, and enjoy life, whether or not I get anywhere socially or career-wise. Mainly my wish is to be content rather than miserable. That's all I want. Others are far more ambitious than I am, which is fine.
bunny
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Ah, yes - up to me, GFN. Working every day, getting closer all the time.
As for talking with my husband, Bunny, we're pretty close when we're not in conflict. In our case, it's helpful to talk about it. We do respect each other when one declines, but that really doesn't happen. We've always been pretty open about these things. He needs to know I love his sad, twisted liitle boy as much as I need to know he loves my sad, twisted little girl. We help each other this way: by acknowledging and accepting those un-pretty parts as deserving of love, too...or so it is as long as we aren't BEING those sad, twisted liitle people. I never touch it under those conditions, I wait until things are better.
My top mind, the non-reptilian grown up mind, is pretty darn sound. Underneath, it's a tricky jungle, where sometimes a branch is a branch, and sometimes a branch is a waiting anaconda (poetic description, not hallucinations!!!!!).
T
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I don't mean that you shouldn't talk with him about your daughter, about yourselves, your childhoods, etc. I meant to say, I would leave alone the question of what he does in his therapy. I think that there is a boundary on a spouse's therapy. If he brings it up, that's one thing. But for you to bring it up is crossing a boundary. You may think it's not and that's okay. I happen to believe that this boundary is best left alone for the sake of that person's therapy. Maybe I totally misunderstood that this was what you were going to ask.
The reason I was advised to not talk about my MIL is that she is indeed a very powerful person in his life, he is extremely enmeshed with her (dead or alive), and that any discussion about her will send him to a place that is completely emotional. It won't help the marriage. Only let therapists talk to him about his mother, and let them take the fallout. It's way over my head. I happen to agree with this and it seems to have worked.
bunny
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You must have misunderstood - I had no plan to ask him what was said or done specifically, although sometimes he volunteers som of this, but instead to ask him if addressing this stuff was benefical to him. Sort of a different question.
Agina, we're pretty open, although only rarely does either of ask specific questions about "what the therapist said".
T
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GFN - about ‘negative thoughts’. Someone who was beaten as a child goes on to beat their own child because, they say, ‘it never did me any harm’. One day they beat their child and think ‘this is wrong, I’m being bad and cruel’. Is that a negative thought? Should they push that thought from their minds and repeat the denial ‘it never did me any harm’? Or is it a positive thought? Or is it just a thought? For your consideration.
You said My objective is to feel better.
I understand this and I'm going to back right off, I don’t think you want me asking about your motivations, fears etc. From what you’ve said, you seem to have a good idea of what the future holds, you are resigned to whatever happens to your relationships with your children and there seems to be no way that the situation with your current ‘abuser’ is going to change. So it seems straight in your mind to me and I can also see given this that ‘feeling better’ is a logical objective.
My objective is to understand, myself and others. I don’t want to control others’ behaviour, in fact I think behaviour is like boats on an ocean. I’m interested in why the boats move as they do, what makes the waves move and what’s underneath the surface. I think our objectives are very different.
Guest For Now. Why ‘For Now’? I admit I thought you might be a member I know from quite a while back. I’ve been asking questions half-based on that idea. Now I realise it doesn’t matter to me, something changed.
T - luego (later, dude) got sad and tired I’m afraid and Guest with no name was thinking of Clint Eastwood as The Man With No Name in the Sergio trilogy, spaghetti westerns shot in Italy? No, Spain! More ‘paella’ westerns perhaps. Fantastic music, haunting, comical, soul-soaring stuff. So achingly manipulative music that it becomes ironic, but ironic with real emotion, the tragic-comedy of life itself. Yeah. Billie Holiday singing Strange Fruit makes me cry, talking of emotion. What makes you cry?
Changing Guest?
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Hello All, Hi Changing Guest (CG?),
Previously, I wrote:
It's good to deny negative, nasty, unrealistic thoughts about oneself, I think. It's different if I have said or done something wrong and know it (then I might look harder at the why's and how to prevent again's--but even then....berrating myself with derogator thoughts won't "solve the problem").
Someone who is beating their child is doing something wrong. The key words above are "and know it" and "unrealistic thoughts", in regard to the situation of someone beating their child. If they believe the beatings they received as a child didn't do them any harm then they do not know that the behaviour is wrong. If suddenly, they learn that their behaviour is wrong and their first thoughts are..."I'm bad and cruel", is this realistic and will it help them to change?
The behaviour is bad and cruel. The lack of knowing that something is wrong is ignorance. But the person who is unaware that they are doing something wrong is not bad or cruel. That person is ignorant of facts. If they continuously repeat, over and over to themselves: "I'm bad and cruel", will this help them to change their behaviour?
Some might argue it could. Yes possibly, and it could also accelerate it. "I'm bad and cruel anyway, so I might as well keep behaving badly and cruelly", may be their next, repetitive, unrealistic thought.
Instead: If the first time they realize that they are doing something wrong...they say to themselves: "I didn't know that! Oh no! What have I done? I've behaved very badly and cruelly! But I can change! I'm not a bad or cruel person. I will do all I can to change my behaviour."
Will this have an effect on their behaviour? Isn't it the behaviour, in this case, that needs attention, that is the problem. Will berrating one's self-esteem by repeating negative words to oneself help or hinder this process?
CG wrote: I don’t want to control others’ behaviour
That is impossible. We can only control our own behaviour, which you probably know and meant to say? I believe, one of the best ways to do that, to control our own behaviour, is to be kind to ourselves. We've been treated badly enough already.
also: My objective is to understand, myself and others.
How do you know that this is not also, one of my objectives? My suggestions on behaviour modification and positive thinking seem to have struck a nerve, for you, possibly? I won't ask you any details but it might be something to consider, if you wish. I don't think we're so different. I do think the technique sounds too simple to work but from personal experience, I have found it only to be a help.
Even if one does do something wrong.....the best way to fix that is to work on the behaviour, not beat oneself up about it. We have been programmed to believe that we deserve punishment because we are bad, horrible, evil, stupid, whatever....(and that we were the problem in the relationship with people who behave like N's, our abusers). They wanted us to think negative things about ourselves, if we did not behave perfectly and for most, they succeeded in teaching us to think that way. It is impossible to behave perfectly, so they had an easy job convincing us and planting their stuff in our heads. Do you think many of us have this in common? I do. We need to teach ourselves, reprogram ourselves, to think differently, in order to improve our emotional statis and our view of ourselves, imo.
I see your point about understanding our behaviour and that of others. I'm not sure if you believe I have tried to do that, or not, or how you came to your belief?
I do like concrete information, stuff that can be done to help repair damage and to improve emotional well-being. That's what really attracted me to the "technique" to begin with, because my self-esteem was very low and I felt like such a loser that I wanted to die. Learning to simply repeat positive statements to myself and to catch myself using unrealistic, negative descriptions about and to myself....helped improve my state greatly. Understanding how I got to be in that state to begin with was enlightening but didn't repair a thing for me.
Guest For Now. Why ‘For Now’?
This just feels right, for now.
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GFN, wrote:
CG wrote:
Quote:
I don’t want to control others’ behaviour
That is impossible. We can only control our own behaviour, which you probably know and meant to say? I believe, one of the best ways to do that, to control our own behaviour, is to be kind to ourselves. We've been treated badly enough already.
But GFN has written throughout this thread:
the real truth is that there is nothing I can do to stop this person from behaving the way they are.
the frustration of having to put up with this person's behaviour
I'm afraid of the harm they are causing by their behaviour, which is not something I have any control over.
all implying that if you could, you'd control their behaviour.
when the abuse was in remission
are you in nursing or similar?
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- luego (later, dude) got sad and tired I’m afraid and Guest with no name was thinking of Clint Eastwood as The Man With No Name in the Sergio trilogy, spaghetti westerns shot in Italy? No, Spain! More ‘paella’ westerns perhaps. Fantastic music, haunting, comical, soul-soaring stuff. So achingly manipulative music that it becomes ironic, but ironic with real emotion, the tragic-comedy of life itself. Yeah. Billie Holiday singing Strange Fruit makes me cry, talking of emotion. What makes you cry?
I have brought my own self to tears playing that one several times. Never a more naked, wrenching and honest peom - and the jusxtaposition against the delicately simple and beautiful melody/chords makes it all the more powerful. The Monster and the Angel carry the truth in four hands...as it is within for most of us, should we only look and see.
Unitl a few years ago, nothing much made me cry, aside from fury - and then only a tiny tear or two. No big sobbing, snotty, drooling releases, just a bone-dry well with a liitle condensation near the lip. I was tough as nails. After a harrowing marital experiecne four years ago, I cried every day for a year and frequently thereafter - much to make up for, in my estimation. I stopped crying as a child, perhaps by age 11 or so, as it was useless - no one heard it as pain, only as a reason to attack, a weakness, a flaw.
What makes me cry now is repeats of that with my husband, who becomes alarmed by cracks in my armor (not what he was used to previously), sad movies and novels, Mark Twain's essays on war and marginalization, the child down the street whose mother hits him with fryng pans (now in a group home), the parts of my life lost to the experieces of the last few years (and all the years before), my fear that I will not be able to do, in my newfound weakened and cry-baby state, all that I need to do for myself, my daughter, my life. I might cry if someone serves me Paella, as I hate tomatoes and chicken wings, but probably not.
I cry for the kid who stopped crying.
Learning to simply repeat positive statements to myself and to catch myself using unrealistic, negative descriptions about and to myself....helped improve my state greatly. Understanding how I got to be in that state to begin with was enlightening but didn't repair a thing for me.
Again, I think both approaches are valid - but I'd like to add that I think they work best in conjunction, applied as needed/appropriate to the moment. To wax all arty for a moment, a a marriage of form (behavioral) and function (psychoanalytical).
T
Now and then there was a little thirst for something
back when dangerous hope grew green and tall
on just a sliver on sunlight and a thimble full of mist
when the reservoir was full
There was appetite
but never, no, not ever hunger
we'd drown in slow delight to find
it was enough to taste the water, spit it out
but now the well has gone bone dry
and raindrops, they startle
against bare stone
at the end of a long, black road...
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quick note back because I've got to get going.
I think my wording may have been off a bit.
I feel frustrated knowing that I can't contol anyone else's behaviour other than my own. I know that there is no way to stop the person from behaving as they choose (in my case, causing harm to me etc). That is up to them. I have the knowledge and understanding of this fact and my own feeling to deal with...which is frustration, etc.
I'm afraid that the harm being caused might end up being severe.
I don't believe I was implying anything. I wish the person would come to their own understanding of the harm they are causing to others and attend to their own behaviour. If I could control their behaivour???
What would you do?
GFN
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What would I do? Really? Really?
I'd apologise, genuinely and sincerely.
I'd realise that emotionally I'd put my husband before my children. I'd realise that this was a mistake and yes, we all do things we regret. One mistake doesn't make us bad. You are not bad or wrong, if anything you try too hard to make it okay for everyone. Sometimes we have to make tough choices.
I'd realise that the people I would most love to have by my side when I'm dying are my children. Because I am going to die.
We take responsibility for our actions,
we recognise when we have made mistakes,
we apologise for those mistakes,
and we are forgiven by those who love us, and who want our love.
Your children want your love.
We recognise when we have to choose between people, because not everyone sees things as we do. We protect and care for our children first. That is our primary job on this planet.
I don't think I have anything else to say on the matter, I really don't.
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Accept, then rebuild your psychic "house" with new locks for which he has no key.
Trying to "stop" him or minimize his potential future damage by playing ball, IMO, will not protect you - it will only prolong your agony. Let him, even encourage him, to do his worst, then his power over the future thereafter is gone.
If he is still holding cards, let him play them and preferably soon. As soon as he does so, he has given away the last of his real power to make you miserable.
Only then can you truly move on. You may be more miserable for a while, but it will be comparatively short-lived, as he will not be able to do more. The threat will be gone.
As I tell my daughter when she has trouble with peers and the gossip chain: It sucks that you have to go through this now, and I wish I could fix it, but this is the nature of 5th grade. Remember, though, that people have short memories. If you just suck it up for a few days, someone else will inevitably do or say something that makes someone else's foibles the center of attention for a while. It's just the way it is.
I grant that adult memories are longer, but it works basically the same way.
That's what I would do. Accept it, face it, then pick up my own pieces and get on with life. Start repeating "Nerves of Steel" to yourself, in preparation. And to hell with the rest of them, so short-sighted and shallow as to buy into his crap. They may ultimately learn the hard way, just as you have.
T
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T, please, GFN's 'abuser' is not her husband (or partner). This is an exceptionally complex situation.
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I gathered that, but I think the same principle can apply anywhere, spouse or not.
That is what I would do, in any case. Which was the question, no?
Everyone has to find their own way, for sure - I would not have ventured a suggestion such as this in absence of the direct question.
T
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(Are you sure you attributed the right post to me? Mine is signed T, I don't know who the other poster with the "husband" reference is - no offense to that poster intended).
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If he is still holding cards, let him play them and preferably soon
T - GFN's 'abuser' is gender neutral at this point. It is GFN's story and I do not intend telling her story.
Your advice does not make sense given GFN's story on your thread.
Guest
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Arbitray gender choice, since is not stated. From what I have gleaned, GFN feels threats of further emotional harm and social intimidation (as she attributes a lot of power to do so to the "they"), but is not forthcoming on the details. In the absence of such details, these are the most saleint thoughts I can offer. I only expect that she will apply them if she sees any possiblity that it fits her situation. I would not feel harm if she chose to ignore the advice, as my picture - and yours (unless you have a PM thing going on and have more information, and no - I'm not asking) - are incomplete.
Sometimes the only way around "it" is through "it", I think. Bruising and hurtful as that may be, at least you get to the other side eventually. Just hanging around in a perpetual hope that "they" will see the error of their ways and stop whatever "it" is can prolong the inevitable, sometimes.
Did I offend you somewhow by giving my answer? I certainly did not intend to. Hopefully, GFN will not be offended, either, even if she finds my reply overly simplistic given the complexity of the situation.
T
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Sometimes the only way around "it" is through "it", I think. Bruising and hurtful as that may be, at least you get to the other side eventually. Just hanging around in a perpetual hope that "they" will see the error of their ways and stop whatever "it" is can prolong the inevitable, sometimes.
Sorry T, I'm trying pretty hard to basically say the same thing as you've just said above. This isn't an easy thing for me to do and I am a bit involved here. Problem is GFN thinks there isn't any conceivable way through it. She's said that here. I've tried to point one way out, above.
cheers Guest
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S'Okay - glad we cleared that up.
I guess this is where the purely behvaioral approach comes in - when the whys and wherefores cannot be addressed further and action is all that's left.
Cheers to you, too, Guest. And hugs to Dear GFN, whatever her choice of action may ultimately be. She will know in her own heart what to do, when the time is right.
T
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Hello all,
I asked what you would do, Changing Guest, if you could control other people's behaviour.
Your answer: I'd apologise, genuinely and sincerely.
I'd realise that emotionally I'd put my husband before my children...etc,etc
.
This doesn't answer the question at all and I don't know why you think I've put my husband before my children or how you can decide that etc?
My answer: If I had a magic wand and could control other people's nasty, harmful behaviour, I would definately wave it around and put a stop to such things. But that is a hypothetical, impossible dream. I can't control other's behaviour and I know it. I find that frustrating sometimes, especially when their behaviour is hurting me, or those close to me. I can only deal with my own feelings and behaviour and do as T has said: tough it out, go "through it" (or get away from it..if that is a possibilty). I do hope that my abuser will some day make positive changes, but I'm not banking on it, or even optomistic about it.
I read your post and I see many assumptions and sorry to say, judgements.
and then...I don't think I have anything else to say on the matter, I really don't.
That might be the best idea. I thought the topic of discussion was the use or uselessness of the technique, coping mechanism, tool, whatever it's called-- of positive suggestion/statements, and the benefits/lack of in modifying behaviour?
T wrote: Hopefully, GFN will not be offended, either, even if she finds my reply overly simplistic given the complexity of the situation.
Not in the least, T.
And hugs to Dear GFN, whatever her choice of action may ultimately be. She will know in her own heart what to do, when the time is right.
Thankyou T. I'd rather call you non-T.
GFN
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GFN: who's love would you rather live the rest of your life with:
your husband's
or your childrens'?
It's that simple a choice. Yes it is. I don't need an answer. It's okay.
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Guest:
GFN: who's love would you rather live the rest of your life with:
your husband's
or your childrens'?
Lucky for me I don't have to make that choice.
GFN
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It's about time you used that particular skill, well done. The truth is too much sometimes, here. We don't want to know okay? Please don't talk about it here any more, please don't refer to things you can't talk about. And I won't. And she's not an N. She's damaged, like many of us. Truce.
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Guest:
It's about time you used that particular skill, well done.
Well thankyou Guest! I wish I knew what you were talking about but I appreciate the compliment anyway, I think.
The truth is too much sometimes, here. We don't want to know okay?
We who?
She's damaged, like many of us.
Damaged? Like broken goods? Us? Who? What?
You are not broken Guest (since you said..us..I assume you are including you). You're still here posting! You may have wounds that need care but they will heal.
I accept your truce...although I'm not sure we were at war. Were we?
I hope things are going well for you in your life, Guest, and I hope you will talk about your wounds and receive kind, understanding, helpful responses that will help to heal them. I wish you the best.
GFN
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GFN - I think we have too many Guests in the House. Changing guest seems to be luego in a new groove (welcome back from your sadness, if I'm right) - but I am not familiar with the "new" guest.
Luego/Clint/Paella/Gawain/whatever, please settle on something so we can keep track.
New Guest, please choose some kind of sign off, if only to help reduse confusion and to help us establish a relationship with you, if that is what you want.
T
(Trouble-When-I-Need-To-Be, Tender-When-I-Can...How about that?)
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Yes, T,
(Trouble-When-I-Need-To-Be, Tender-When-I-Can...How about that?)
That's much better, imo.
Giggle For Now
Gone For 'Notherbit
Get Freaking Nasty (just kidding)
GFN
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As I tell my daughter when she has trouble with peers and the gossip chain: It sucks that you have to go through this now, and I wish I could fix it, but this is the nature of 5th grade. Remember, though, that people have short memories. If you just suck it up for a few days, someone else will inevitably do or say something that makes someone else's foibles the center of attention for a while. It's just the way it is.
T
For goodness sake T! What are you teaching your daughter by this attiitude? "Ride it out till the abusers move on to new supply."
You are actually training her to not confront and challenge abuse. To not have that 'I' voice you so often speak of.
That is quite a contradiction to so many of your self-posts here. So, you don't believe in encouraging and guiding and supporting your daughter to stand up for her own rights or her own dignity? That's how it reads to me. By this attidude you are moulding her to have the same difficulties in life that you are currently facing.
Can't you come up with more creative and proactive solutions for your daughter to employ when she faces adversity at school than simplistically saying 'just suck it in'?
A variation of that same attitude is a very outmoded male style of parenting, usually with their sons which produced men who wouldn't and couldn't get in touch with or share their feelings.
T! You're supposed to be a thinking person/parent. That's what you claim. Have you thought this strategy through to it's obvious conclusions? What if she carries that attiude you are reinforcing forward into her adulthood? What about when she marries? Will you say if she tells you that her husband is treating her badly 'Just suck it in'? Would that be sufficient then?
School days and early socialising is where we can really help our children to understand and manage relationship dynamics. Wise and involved parents use their kids mini-dramas at school to discuss and develop healthy relationship skills.
'Just suck it in' is lazy and simplistic. I wonder how her head and tummy is feeling for those few days while she is sucking it in? I wonder if it is affecting her sleep or eating over those few days? Of course, I guess if she's successfully sucking it in, you probably wouldn't know the answers to these questions.
'Just suck it in'. Simplistic lazy answers from simplistic distorted psycholgy an empowered child do not make!
Any benefit to the child or growth of the child is both limited and accidental when this is their foundation.
Joseph
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Joseph:
thank you for your concern. As I did not give too many details or illuminate the history of all the times I have helped her find constructive and creative ways to "fight back", I guess I can see why you may feel that I'm engaging in some "bad parenting".
It is a little more complex than my post would suggest.
Although there have been many times when she (with or without a little help) has been sucessful in redirecting bully-types who are picking on her directly (and she does not hesitate to stick up for herself under those conditions), the illustration I used in my post was drawn from 2 specific situations:
1 - Serial Reproduction Rumours:
First Statement: H was talking to her friend G today (factual).
Second person/statment: H likes (in that scary boy-girl way) G.
Third Person/Statement: G and H are going together.
Fourth Person Statemnt: G and H were holding hands at recess.
etc, etc.
Only the first statement is true, but due to the dramatic nature of fifth grade romantic fascinations, the significance, meaning and intesity of H & G's relationship has been magnified in extremis. If one person (the second person in the chain) decides to embellish a bit for entertainment/nefarious purposes, the rumour quickly snowballs - and even by the end of the first day it is all true in the minds of said dramatically motivated fifth graders - except for those who know her and G well. As I explained to H, in many cases, these kids are secretly wishing they were in exactly such a relationship, and are using the idea of her and G as a fantasy substitute. Maybe not fair, but really, really typical.
It would be a waste of time for H to approach each and every child who has heard the rumour and protest, since she, G and those closest to both of them know the real truth anyway. In this case, as other kids observe for the next few days, the truth will out itself without her help, since she and G are simply friends and talk and play sometimes but not always, and certainly are not holding hands and gazing longlingly into each other's eyes on the playground. She need only reply factually if confronted with any of the above statements.
Plus - as I said - give it 2-3 days and someones else will become the center of attention and it will be forgotten.
On the second day after receiving this advice, she came back laughing and said, "You were right - now everybody's talking about so-and-so, and that's not really true, either. It's all so very silly."
2. Factual rumours about private things:
H started menstruating a couple of months ago. She of course decided to tell her "best friends", and soon (as not too many fifth graders can sit on such a "secret" for long, especially girls who are thinking about when it will happen to them), "everybody knew", causing much tears and distress for H.
In this case, I had to talk to her about the idea that if you TRULY want it to be a complete secret, then you cannot, at least in the fifth grade (and often into adulthood), tell even your best friend. Once you make that mistake and your secret is out, there is nothing you can do other than adjust to the fact that you made a mistake and now everyone knows your business. And again, as soon as someone else starts (H is the first in her school this year), that will be the big topic. At this point, you can only be patient and wait for the cameras to pan elsewhere.
The point I was making was about social damage - sometimes, it is really beyond our control and has a life of its own. However, truth will almost always win out, even if it takes a while.
I hope this helps your perspective some.
T
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I should add that I do not view these typically fifth-grade behaviors as abusive. These behaviors, while a royal pain, are very developmentally normal. These kids are acting out/rehearsing for adult situations, imagining being in love in a "safe" way, for example , and also learning to fight back where appropriate, but also maintaining one's composure while others act like fruitcakes and over-dramatize every little bit of sensation that comes down the pike.
One anecdote re: "true" bullying you may appreciate:
When in 3rd grade, Hannah was daily encountering a younger student who was enjoying calling everyone, including H, "ugly" H was not only appalled at the statment, but also by the fact that this was a second-grader (she still like s to think of younger children as inevitably innocent and sweet).
We came up with a pretty humorous solution that actually worked. The child never did say it to H or even in fron of H again:
Child X: "You Ugly."
H: "I know, it stinks but I gotta live with it. But hey - you're ugly, too. Wanna start an ugly club? Then we won't have to be lonely anymore. You can be president!" H is actually very pretty, and the other child was not at all ugly, either, so this highlighted the pointlessness and silliness of the statements.
Silence followed, and H never did hear that from her again, although eventually they talked "nicely" to each other while waiting in car-pool.
We did, however, discuss how unfortunate it was that his child had probably learned this from a sibling or, possibly and even worse, an adult in her life.
Anytime we discuss "true" bullying, we not only examine the effects on the receiver, but also the motivations of the bully. She had a few experieces this year with another girl in her class, who was constantly belittling and insulting to H and others. Fist, we talked about how this behavior was not exclusive to H, so it wasn't really personal. We then discussed how awful this girl must feel about herself if she had toptear down others to feel powerful. Then we discussed practical solutions.
H first tried being very direct, as in "This is just mean and what you're saying isn't even true. Stop.". This did not work, so Hannah decided to try a variation on the above scanario - she would just say "Okay, X, whatever you say", calmly and without any emotional reaction, and walk away. That worked. Sometimes, bullies just give up if you don't get upset, since mostly what they want is to feel powerful - they really don't dislike the victim (they don't care who they pick on), they just want to make someone else feel small so they can feel big.
X no longer bothers her, and has in fact become friendly. H has come home saying "Wow - X has really changed. She's actually nice now, and even compliments me."
No one solution applies in every situation. What I try to teach H is to read others for their motivations, and let that be her guide in determining which solution will be most effective. And I remind her the that she can always choose not to play; disengaging altogether is sometimes the only solution, although you can ususally find a way to stop bullying cold.
It's not easy, and sometimes requires us to engage in some manner of tit-for-tat, but that is not usually a good solution - only serving to amplify the situation. However, if H can be confident about who she is, the value of her skills, her value as an individual person - then in really won't matter one way or the other in the end.
As I explained to her, the bullies I knew in school, top dogs though they were at the time, have not gone on to any remarkable achievements in adult life. The ones I've heard since about are in dead-end jobs, have problems with marriages, alcohol, money and everythig else. Do what you can without becoming a bully yourself, but all else fails, keep this understanding close to your heart: The Abusees are the ones who have gone on to great things, because instead of inflating their own egos at the expense of others, they have expanded their minds and capabilities for their own benefits, leaving those sad, sad bullies in the dust.
Sometimes, it's just the way it is.
Know your friends, but know your enemies better.
T
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Hi T:
Back to the title of this topic, sort of, (also relates to bullying, as I suspect was your husband's behaviour too, right?)
In my husband's case, there was a long period when I believed that change was not possible, that he would never come to understand how his behavior (the result of his inner terror) was harmful and unjustifiable, nor ever face himself and take responsibility for his actions and his own self-perceptions.
However, he ultimately did do all those things.
How did your husband do these things? How did he get to that point?
What helped him get it?
GFN
PS: The biggest parenting skill is communication, isn't it? It really sounds to me like you're nailing it just fine!! I love the name you picked for your daughter! It's beautiful!
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My niece (2nd grade) has told me some appalling things that kids say to each other. It sounds like they are mimicking their parents and it sounds pretty bad when children say bossy and mean things. But it's normal. When she tells me about distressing things that happen at school I've empathized with her feelings of anger, hatred, jealousy, etc. Then she thinks of her own solution to the problem. But she's a lot younger than 5th grade so it's not as complex yet.
bunny
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Bunny, I had forgotten just how wacky fifth grade can be! My mother was so different with me - mostly just saying "turn the other cheek" and not talking about solutions or giving credence to my angst. I feel vindicated knowing that I can be a help to my daughter - by realistically letting her know when she's a contributor to her own problem, but also letting her know when it's not about her and she doesn't deserve it - and best of all, helping her learn to handle it. More and more, she comes home with stories of how she thought quickly and on her feet when bulllied, whithout my help.
In one case, a boy was picking on her everyday in the hall, in front of his buddies, trying to make himself look important. She just looked at him one day, in front of the same friends, and said "I can see you really need my attention right now. Perhaps yopu don't get enough at home? What can I do to help?". Although I think in one way, it was a little harsh (maybe it was true, poor thing), it was also extremely effective and not a little bit funny. She said he turned bright red and didn't speak to her again for a week. Now he just behaves respectfully. And his buddies have remained respectful also. She says that boy is her friend now, sometimes. They play softball at recess.
Yes, GFN - bullying is a problem with my husband. It isn't constant, never was except for the year he ran off abruptly and had his meltdown (It defies imagination, the things he did and said at that time). Before that, I never named it as such, I just kind of got through the moment, either by dissolving or lashing back, and then got back to life afterwards.
He is and was often loving and tolerant (but sometimes moody and impatient, too - as he still is), but sometimes the bullying creeps back in if he's feeling nervous or uptight. I think on some level, he was never prepared for open conflict as a child (unlike me, who had conflict on an hourly basis, practically), so resorts to bullying (the child's way) rather than discussion, openess, and negotiation to get his points across.
What caused him to change his ways significantly, if imperfectly, was the realization that he was subjecting himself to serious personal losses. He states that the "golden moment" was when he realized that I would not ever be his friend again (I certainly thought that was the case at the time, and was staying as distant as humanly possible). At H's (slipped up ther, didn't I? That name is her father's pick, actually, but it is a good one) softball game, I brought the glove he had always used, smiled in front of others, but did not smile when I gave it to him at the car after the game, even as he was trying to be smiley with me. It was then, he says, that he realized that expecting me to care for him, like him, respect him et al was ridiculous, given what he was doing and how he used any and every means to justify it.
At that point, he went and got a therapist. This helped some, and the continuing explorations we share about the dynamic patterns of our childhoods also help, especially if he is escalating. This usually brings him back under control, if I can remember not to curl up into a ball, to stand up head-to-head and let him know that bullying won't be tolerated but that his feelings do matter, and then to address it with patience and understanding.
I wasn't able to convince him to change (I had already given up and was working at moving on) by negotiating, but I think the fact that my boundaries were clear, I had washed my hands of it all and didn't want anything to do with him more than was necessary, and wouldn't talk to him about his life ("I have nothing to offer yopu on this or any other subject aside from H's concerns. Perhaps you should talk to your girlfriend, instead") made him take notice.
To be hones, I was shocked when he called me some weeks after that softball game and asked if he could come talk to me - if I could get a sitter so that H wouldn't have to listen. I questioned him about his motives (I'm not interested in another rehash of the past, thank you. You have a life you seem to like (I really didn't believe that, BTW), why don't you just enjoy that and leave me out of it?), but he sounded very sincere and pretty chagrined in hi tone, so I decided to listen.
He came to see me that night. We sat in the living room (all his photos put away in drawers, except for the one in H's room), and he proceeded to tell me, crying, that he was sorry, That he had done some horrible things because he felt so out of control. That the girlfriend was just a prop to help him make himself feel better, but it hadn't worked. Nor had the rock star times(he was quite successful for a little bit). And that he was tired of tryiong to think he was right when he knew he was hurting so many people, especially me and H. And lastly, that he had ditched the girlfriend
(who - imagine this - had the gall to call me and complain how this was hurting her children!!!! Another story - you want N? I can give you N!!!! Perhaps I never speak of her, really, because I am not past my labeling and still sometimes give her too much power in my own mind. She was my "friend", and opportunistically inserted herself when his success was imminent and our marriage strained).
He said he knew he had no right to ask, but that I remained the best friend he had ever had, and could I think about trying again.
We both cried a lot that night, and many other nights to come we would cry more.
So we tried, a little at a time, for a few months, eventually moving back in together.
It's not perfect, but it's better - and it gets better in fits and starts all the time.
I feel relieved - because to me, he is also the best friend that I've ever had. That was the greates loss for me.
T
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Hello All:
I use to teach 4th grade. Some of the things kids do to each other is amazing. You are correct in stating that some of it is developmental. I think sometimes 6 year olds are the worse. They are so arbitrary in their relationships. First they like you and your their bestest friend, they don't like you. It constantly runs hot and cold with children.
The trick is in communication and helping children navigate the pitfalls so they won't drop through the sinkholes when they are teenagers. Patz
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So true, patzy-sue - it's all lord of the flies, whether we like it or not. Kids are not civilized by nature, and those who are hungry for power becaue they have no healthy power within the family will do whatever they can to get it. They're not bad per se (royal pain to adults), bu ti's quite the job to respect how important it all is to them while helping them keep perspective.
I think the worst thing in the world is to outright dismiss the importance of it to kids on either side of the bully fence - to them, it's life and death. For my daughter, a snub from a peer carries the same weight as would being fired to me.
T
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T!
He loves you soooo much he faces the demons and fights them off!
That is wonderful! (I'm assuming he loves you or he would care less if he lost you, friend or not, right?).
He is and was often loving and tolerant (but sometimes moody and impatient..
Sounds like me and everyone that looks like me (but I don't think I bully...there are better ways.... 8) ).
"Love can move mountains." :D
...the girlfriend was just a prop to help him make himself feel better...
He violated your trust!!! :shock: :( :x :? :cry: :evil: :!: How are you doing with that?
She was my "friend", and opportunistically inserted herself...
Your friend betrayed you!!! :shock: :( :? :cry: :evil: :!: How are you doing with that??
Doubly whammy!!!
Those are traumatic events to experience.
It's not perfect, but it's better - and it gets better in fits and starts all the time.
I'm glad things are going that way now. Sending you another huge large big hug.
GFN
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I'm assuming he loves you or he would care less if he lost you, friend or not, right?).
Yep. And vice versa.
He violated your trust!!! How are you doing with that?
I've adjusted and forgiven now - but it took years for the anger to leave. At first, I thought about it and was devastaded/furiuous all the time (making me no peach to live with, either).
I'd say it was about three years before I no longer felt angry when I thought about it. I still think about it sometimes, but no so frequently.
Your friend betrayed you!!! How are you doing with that??
Feeling educated. With her, I REALLY should have seen this betrayal coming. She was, before my husband, unfaithful to her husband with her brother-in-law (husbna'd sister's husband), and was indulging in heavy make out sessions (at least, maybe more) with former HS classmates while coordinating a high school reunion. She was a self-centerd hypochondriac and liked to drink pre-bottled mudslides as a chaser to her vicodin.
Somewhat, she was a friend of convenience. We were neighbors with kids near the same age who played together several times a week (she also had a teen-aged step-daughter who babysat for us periodically). She was not stupid, and rarely did the mudslide and vicodin trick to noticeable effect, at least not around her kid. And she was able to provide some adult entertainment/conversation in an otherwise kind of cloisterd at-home Mom life. I did care deeply about her, although it bothers me to think about it that way now.
Lacking that I voice, I was too dismissive of her behvaior: Poor woman is so unhappy, I wish she could find a way to be happy without hurting herself, let me be supportive and helpful and maybe she'll feel better, instead of : This woman is a remorseless harpy and I should back away - far away. But, lacking an ability to listen to my inner voice (of course, Mother always told me it was WRONG, not to trust myself), so attached to my idea that all people were basically good and I could trust anyone who claimed to be my frined, I could not see the warnings.
I think it was when I gently suggested that she should cut ties wth the brother-in-law (but we're SOULMATES!!!! I hate that word/phrase) before she really hurt herself, let alone everyone else, that she decided I was fair game.
Oddly, she once told me how my husband was not "good-looking enough (he's perfectly fine - not brad pitt, but not don knotts either)", that her husband was really handsome and that was important to her. I suppose this comment made me think I was immune.
I guess my husband looked a lot better to her when his band was charting No1 for months of MP3 & B-Sonic, getting tour offers in Belgium and Canada. At that point, he was her SOULMATE, I guess.
Just before all this went down, she tried to "catch" me, I guess, in some bad behavior. She started questioning me about a friend of mine - a talented young artist/musicain (still my/our friend to this day, though he now lives in NYC and comes down to visit/record once in a while, bringing his girlfriend of nearly 4 years) - asking if I had ever considered sleeping with him and did I think I might?!!? - I always replied honestly, saying: No - he's too young and a valuable friend, and I love my husband and would never betray him, no matter how many problems we have.
Apparently, she started coming to visit my husband when I would go out with friends once a week or so.
I know what was going on within a week after he told me it was over, but I could not allow myself to think it out loud for a couple of months. My denial factor was off the charts.
I still struggle with it, but not so much with my husband, because he has worked to change, to make reparations, to show remorse.
I don't talk to him about it much anymore (we did a lot of that in the first year or two after), usually just in passing,
I'm struggling with the ways in which I've changed, the parts of me gone that I loved; that others loved: the creative energy, the fun-loving self, the laughing girl, the pool shark, the builder of sheds, the quick-witted tease, the happy prankster.
I'm ungodly serious now and prone to deep depression that lingers, rather than passes in a week. Where I should howl with laughter I smile a wan smile and nod. I THINK it's funny, but less often FEEL it.
I often wonder which changes are permanent, and if they are not, how damn long will it take?
T
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Hi T:
He violated your trust!!! How are you doing with that?
I've adjusted and forgiven now - but it took years for the anger to leave.
So do you believe he will never do such a thing again? Stupid question, because if you didn't believe that, you wouldn't stay with him, right?
You've worked through the issue, as far as I know, the way it usually goes. Struggled with the feelings that violation generated, let go of the anger, which helps to you to forgive, and have accepted you husband's attempts to change, to make reparations, to show remorse.
His doing those things allow for a greater chance for that trust to be rebuilt and for both of you to heal. It doesn't erase the violation but it does help to repair the damage, am I right?
With your friend, it is not so easy eh? She took advantage and then even called to complain about her pain when she was dumped! Expecting you to be empathetic??? How crazy is that???
The fact that she was messing around on her own husband was definately a red flag that you must have missed but I bet you won't again. Still, that's all the responsibility you can take for what happened. The rest of the blame lies on the shoulders of the betrayers.
You care about your husband and he hurt you. He cares about you and so he is trying to fix what he did (in himself and by making amends to you too). This seems tolerable and easier to adjust to.
You cared about your friend, felt and showed empathy for her, and she hurt you. She hasn't taken responsibility for her behaviour and she has done nothing to acknowledge the hurt she caused you (never mind showing remorse or making amends). This is harder to take.
On the other hand...she seems to be acting without empathy for anyone, even herself. Her self-destructive behaviours (the booze and drug mix, promiscuity, infidelity for the man she married, etc) indicate she is in a poor state and has real problems, one of which is a lack of empathy.
Maybe your wound feels like your friend hurt you....didn't value the friendship...you...gave to her....didn't consider your....feelings and had no respect for you...or your marriage?
But look at her.....she doesn't have any of that for herself. She doesn't act like a friend to herself. She is trying to numb her feelings (with the med/drug mix and the sex). She has no respect.....for herself or her own...marriage.
So really.....can we expect her to think more of you than she does of herself?
It's so hard not to take such a thing as betrayal like that personally. But it's really not anything to do with you. The only thing you did was try to help someone in need (and trusted that person to be a friend). Next time you run into someone who reminds you of her, will you run with the wind, or offer friendship and empathy but withhold trust?
There is still pain from the trauma which has been repressed and causes the depression. It will come out. We all want a quick fix. There isn't such a thing. It's hard to be as patient with you as you are being with others.
As to rebuilding those parts of yourself that you feel are gone, they may be sleeping? The laughter thing is very important, imo. Something that takes work. Try to seek out stuff that makes you smile, look for the funny things that happen, and consciously apply your will toward getting that laughter back in your life. I think you will find more of your old self returning, if you do that because it's sounds like you were a happy go lucky person, for some time, and the pain of what's happened has suppressed that happy girl/woman/lady/child???
Between releasing the pain (you have a very good avenue in your music)and looking for the joy in your life, it's gotta do you some good.
GFN
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T,
Your "friend" sounds like quite a piece of work.
I used to have friends (so-called) who were even more f***ed up than I was. I guess it made me feel more stable.
I knew a woman like your "friend." She was trying to seduce every man, even if she didn't want him. She was married. She also seduced women into friendships for supplies she could get from them. She thought she was sooooo great and could 'get' any man. She was deeply troubled emotionally and had big problems in her life. Yet most men were flattered by her attentions and she probably could seduce most of them, even if only for an evening, before they realized what a drain she was.
Anyway, sorry this happened to you. I'm curious about one thing. Your H, a rock star, only had one woman throw herself at him?
bunny
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No, a good few - but he enjoyed the attention and let it go, laughed with me about it later (we both had those experiences, as performers often do. You get used to it.). He's also a quiet man, an accomplished guitarist/arranger/all round musician, but not a "front man" type. A Musician's Musician, so to speak, who did not spend much time schmoozing with the audience.
The singer/leader got most of that attention and reveled in it, renting limos to go party with stoned girls in mini skirts, Xing themselves into oblivion. In fact, my husband hated the project that was so successful. To him, it was trite bubblegum, and the ridiculous amount of posturing that the (moderately, promising, almost) successful band mates indulged in was just plain stupid.
This woman, however, wanted my life, not him - I was/am a decently respected singer/songwriter. part of the musical community, doing photo and artwork for other artist's records, etc, had a somewhat successful husband in "the business" (her husband was a successful electrician - less glamorous, to her). She lied (we later discovered, comparing notes after the fact) to him about some of the things I said/did about him/myself/us (and vice-versa) as a means of making him vulnerable to her advances and deepening any existing natural rifts and divides between us.
She tried writing/singing/inserting herself into said communitiy after she got her hooks in and broke us up, but none of the work was meaningful or up to any kind of skilled literary or musical standard (I heard some much later, and admit I almost fell off my chair at how bad it was), and no one in the community had any respect for her as a person. My husband later began to feel ashamed of the affiliation, and he lost the respect of quite a few people.
I, meanwhile, got shut out of the community, because as a "choice", his skills were more useful, so that was natural. Plus, I was on the receiving end of a few threats should I attempt to go anywhere - not to mention that I really didn't want to see them together.
In the end, we both lost some standing. After an experience like this, it is, among others who have not done this kind of crap (at least not publicly), as if you have the plague. No one wants to catch it.
Four years later, after everyone starts to feel comfortable that it's not going to happen again, things are beginning to improve in that area.
It's been really tough.
T
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GFN:
Learning to trust him again was not easy, but not as hard as you might think. He has no previous history, in any realtionship, and until the manipulations from outside, an abhorrence on his part of infidelity.
And - of - course - he has worked hard, made sacrifices and reparations, and demonstrated not just simple remorse, but deep shame that he could harm me and H in such an unjustifiable way. Plus - and importantly - he made public statements to that effect to a few key people, in front of me. Brave, in my book.
The woman, as you said, is capable of no kind of real introspection, thus cannot ever repair herself.
I think a critical turning point in all this was when, as she talked about the "soulmate" relationship with her brother-in-law, I said" For your own sake, please stop before you wake up one day to find that you can't look at yourself in the mirror. Please consider how confused yourchildren would be if you were to leave your husband for their uncle, and how hurt and confused the enitre family would be. If he's really your soulmate, and your marriage is beyond repair, stop this relationship now, dissolve your marriage and wait a couple of years. If he is your soulmate, then the spark will still be there. But please stop before you hurt yourself and everybody else."
She did break it off, and it was about 2 months before my husband announced he was leaving. I think she hated me for confronting her with even the gentlest of truths.
Trust in the at large world has been difficult to manage. I have yet, aside from some gay friends, to feel that real trust in anyone again (even then it's pretty "qualified"). I don't laugh it off if I am approached by men (I used to be "charmed, I'm sure, but no thanks"). It makes me angry now. I don't trust unmarried straight women who haven't got strong, self-motivated identities - and I have no sympathy for anyone, ever, who twists truth to justify infidelity or any other violation or disrespect of others.
It is maybe harder for me than for some, those who did not have my childhood, because my rebellion against my mother was partially a deliberaste innocence - I refused to let HER poison my mind about other people - I refused to view the world as manipulative and mean-spirite4d, to the point where I failed to see it when it was real. I guess I took that too far, so am now in a prolonged orphan state, to go the Jung route.
I do miss me, and I think others do, too. I'm not as much fun as I used to be, I don't write/compose as often as I used to, and have all but given up photo work entirely. In essence, my passion is gone.
I hope to get it back some day, I really do. I often think I do not recognize me at all.
T
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Here is where I look at "who I'm dealing with."
Okay, the following is kind of simplistic. The two dilemmas can definitely coexist and often do. But usually one of them is more dominant in the person's operations. And the person is NOT consciously thinking all of these things. Although they might think some of it.
The borderline dilemma sounds something like, "I dislike it when people try to put limits on me, everyone is abandoning me, there can never be enough people for me to attach to shallowly, I am out of control, I'm going to destroy everything and there will be nothing left, I hate myself, no one will bother to rescue me, I'm going to destroy myself through (name your poison), etc."
The narcissistic dilemma sounds like, "No one understands me. I'm so alone with this. No one gets how I'm struggling here with no help. I'm not going to make it without more (people, drugs, alcohol, affairs, work, etc.). I hate everyone, I'm going to make everyone as miserable as I am, etc."
As I said, there's more to it, but this encapsulates some of your friend's mindset as she goes through her day.
If I knew an unstable woman who was messing around with her BIL and I felt she had more of a "borderline" dilemma, I would avoid saying anything to her about why it was a bad idea. She would just take it as a direct attack and would set about to destroy me in retaliation. What I'd say is, "I can't really hear about your BIL anymore." If she insisted on knowing why not, I'd just repeat like a parrot, "I can't. I've thought about it and I can't hear it anymore." Yes, she'd be angry. Yes, she'd have a fit or two. Yes, she would try to make me go back on this limit. But I wouldn't. Borderlines really, really need limits set with very little explanation. The explanations just make it worse.
If I thought she was more of a narcissistic dilemma-type, I'd say, "Gee, it must be really hard on you to struggle with this." Even though she'd acted like it was no struggle at all. My goal would be to make her curious about what she was doing. Narcissistic dilemmas are partially about blocking curiosity.
some thoughts off the top of my head...
bunny
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Re: giving up things you loved to do and wondering where it all went.
Is it possible that you're "showing" your husband and others how hurt and devastated you are, that they have literally destroyed your joie de vivre. I.e., a concrete expression of how it's affected you to the core? If so, that's quite understandable. But you may phase that out at some point.
You can experiment and do one of the things you used to enjoy and see if you can get into it again. I think action might be the key here. Another thought off the top.
bunny
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Thanks, bunny, for your thoughts. I have had no contact with this woman in four years, and hope never to again (she moved out of the neighborhood) - so her state of mind is unimportant to me. I am simply working on processing and accepting my hurt and shock - and my feelings of stupidity for having been unable to face what was really going on.
Should she be motivated to darken my door with the most sincere, matyred apology ever, I would not consider listening for a moment. I'm not counting on that, either.
Washed my hands of her, indeed.
I have been trying more lately to get back into my groove. Partly, I feel so sad when I start that I stop. Actual performing (as opposed to writing - hard to be clever and literary when you're so shocked and numb) still makes me feel good - very, very good, so it's not hopeless.
It's just slow, and I still have some raw wounds that are easily salted. Hell, even sugar burns sometimes. Weak, I know, but where I am.
I suppose this is why I started posting in the first place - find my voice(s) again, if I'm lucky. Change the language of pain to the language of poetry, if I work at it enough.
thank you, bunny.
T
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Hi T:
Trust in the at large world has been difficult to manage.
No wonder. The one you love violated it and a so-called friend did too.
This definately takes a good chunk of joy out of life because it hurts so much. I liked it a whole lot better when I was unaware of the wolves of this world (so what if they dwell in it....I liked it better when they snuck around in the shaddows and stayed out of my way).
There are still lots of people who are worthy of trust. We just have to be careful about choosing who they are, right? And that's what makes one cautious and doubtful. The trick, I think, is to not judge every one by a couple of examples, which is a lot easier said than done, after having experienced such betrayal.
Take care of you, T, and the rest will come back.
GFN
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GFN:
You are so right - and my mother, too - and father and brother, by virtue of being enlisted for her cause. Perhaps (oh, hell - definitely) even before my husband and (insert favorite horrible name here), there were these trust issues, only now magnified by this experience.
Sounds like you have a bit of that at-large trust issue, too (forgive me, going out on a limb), as it seems you don't trust others in your circle/community/family to recognize lies and smears (or could it be potential exposure of shameful secrets?) from your nemesis.
Am I seeing this right?
I think about this/you, and must admit knowing nothing keeps me from being able to provide much in the way of useful comments, aside from general support.
Is there no way you can rid yourself of this painful scenario? Get another job? Move to a new neighborhood or town? Create a new social circle? Paint the house and change your name, plant a flag of sovereignity in the front yard? Wacky, I'm sure, but could any of these gestures be worth a look?
Without giving more information than is comfortable, can you describe how/why the link is so impossible to break?
You seem such a fine and balanced person, and strong, too, so it is puzzling...
(I didn't ask these things of you before, since luego and others seemed to be working at it - didn't want the too many cooks problem).
T
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Hello T and all:
...there were these trust issues, only now magnified by this experience.
So the issues developed from childhood. I think you said you over did it in the opposite direction than what your mother was trying to get you to believe (that the world is awful and full of nothing but nasty stuff, manipulative people, (in other words: trust no one), which you didn't believe, so you didn't see it when it was real...or something like that (I'm too lazy to look back at the posts).
To me that seems sensible. It's sensible to see the world as not simply full of awful, nasty, manipulative, untrustworthy etc people. It's not just full of that. There are lots and lots of good, kind, caring, trustworthy people in the world too. And unless you decided that absolutely everyone in the world, no exceptions, is nice, then your thinking was more realastic than you might have realized, and certainly more so than hers.
But... you ran into some people who broke your trust in them, and now......after all you've been through....you are going to rearrange your thinking and decide that yes.....the world is mostly full of awful, nasty, manipulative...wait a minute...no, no.......untrustworthy people??? Are you going to regress to her kind of all or nothing thinking??
Single women are danger. Only gays are safe. Right?
Just a perspective to think about....hope I'm not offending you.
As for me....I know what it feels like to have my trust violated (understatement). But for me....I still feel a very strong sense of trust. I believe most people are good (and some are seriously messed up) and I think most people are trying to behave well but don't always succeed. I still believe in friendship, I just don't believe in certain friends (the ones who betrayed me). I do think trust is earned and not to be handed out blindly to just anyone, but at the same time, I believe people are worthy of earning my trust, unless they demonstrate clearly that they are not.
I don't go searching for the bad in people and if I see it, I will often offer a hand, if it seems safe enough to do so. I do look for the good and find it.
These are things I trust and have trusted. So in a way, those who betrayed me......failed...because they haven't destroyed my trust. Never thought of that before this very moment.
I have done some things to improve my own life, alter my scenario....
I moved my residence.
I joined a new group (for social interaction and community work) which I really enjoy.
I cut all ties with the person and those the person associates with (except for my children, ofcourse).
I gathered friends from afar, closer to me by increasing my communication with them (you know...how we drift appart from friends who move away...even those we felt we were really close with.....but when we get together...it feels like they were never gone??? Some of mine did that...moved away, and I'm resurecting those friendships or should I say......working to stay closer to those friends (those immune to my "abuser").
I am actively persuing my own interests in the arts (much more so than prior to this situation) and using them to release my repressed feelings.
I'm working on improving all facets of my health (physically, emotionally, spiritually, etc)....Joined a gym for the first time in my life!!!! Quit smoking almost a year ago!!! Stuff like that.
I got a new puppy....I love my dog, who is getting older and I will be distressed when she passes away. So I decided to get a new puppy and train it, etc, while my dog can tolerate such a commotion. This pup keeps me active and is really a joy!!! (and my dog is amazingly gentle and loving toward the pup!!!) All very nice, so far.
I've set limits with some people and widened some with others and now I'm in a space where I feel it is safe to put most of my energy into my own recovery from the traumas I've suffered, this past while. I think I did what was necessary while in crisis, to preserve my sanity, but it feels like now....I'm really picking up the pieces.
It took 4 years before I could wear makeup again (because I cried so often and unexpectedly and I would end up a big smear....heehee...smear campaign....working real well......yep!!!).
Truly, I have done all I can and continue to for those I care about but this past year......I'm doing more for me because.... it's time. Everyone else is doing quite nicely and I'm still struggling to pass go.
Like you, T, I am not who I was and I want me back. Some of me is back but not most. Still....a positive thinker....I believe I will get most of me back and my life will be full of joy again, soon.
I can't rid this person from the earth, nor can I have any effect on their behaviour, but I can choose to look forward and have faith, as I always have, especially since I know.....this won't last forever. Nothing does.
You seem such a fine and balanced person, and strong, too,...
Thankyou T. We are all fine, balanced, strong people....some days, aren't we? Sometimes I'm just as crumby, off track and weak as any old putt putt.
I'm sorry, T, I can't seem to think of how to describe how/why the link is so impossible to break, without giving you more information than is comfortable.
You wrote: ...knowing nothing keeps me from being able to provide much in the way of useful comments, aside from general support.
You have no idea how useful some of your comments have been, nor how much I do really appreciate your support. Thankyou T.
You wrote, regarding your writing: I have been trying more lately to get back into my groove. Partly, I feel so sad when I start that I stop.
What if you write about the way you feel so sad? Write about starting and stopping? Some real....blues....maybe?? Maybe get some of the pain out, even if it is not stuff you would perform for anyone?? Maybe you'll surprise yourself??
GFN
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I think you said you over did it in the opposite direction than what your mother was trying to get you to believe (that the world is awful and full of nothing but nasty stuff, manipulative people
Actually, no - it was a "cognitive dissonance" trick, of sorts - my Mother would continually portray/proclaim herslef to be trustworthy (not describe others as untrustworthy so much), but that was not consistently/rarely true. My rebellion was to override my temptation to trust no one, as I refused to be victimized to the point where ALL PEOPLE became my mother, in my eyes....if you can follow that. In essence, I knew my Mother was/is not normal in that way, so worked at extending trust even when instinctively tempted to withold it, in an effort to keep perspective.
I just overshot on the last one. Badly. I KNEW the truth long before I could face it. I had set up a fairly rigid academic demand system, such that I needed "hard evidence", not just (even well-founded) suspicion, to suspend trust. Unfortunately, due to the extremity of the modeling of my mother and the extremity of my resistance to it, my filter for BAD wasn't good enough - it got through the holes because they were too big.
Single women are danger. Only gays are safe. Right?
Not precisely, but almost. Single women without well-defined indentities of their own, especially those drawn to "glamour professions", are an auto-reject right now. Where there's one, there's usually more. I think I'd been really naive about this previously, thinking of it as "cute", sort of. A couple of people have recommended I see "Single White Female"; they say it pretty well illustrates the identity-usurpation angle the (insert expletive) was working. I haven't, though - but maybe I'll go ahead and cross that bridge and see. Calling Netflix...
It was a truly harrowing experience.
I've undertaken some of the same things as you - actually many of them, especially as regards personla health and well-being, during separation. It seems I got off track on some of them due to the struggles of reconcilliation. Socailly, it was a good while before I could feel comfortable being around anyone who had seen/been with them together. That was a major hurdle, and still causes some discomfort.
I've always had many gay friends, male and female (I'm an Honorary Lesbian - because I'm fun and don't give a crap about it all - in the place we play most), probably in part due to the fact that I share some of the same political/cultural predilictions. Although I did not previously feel "safer", I sure as heck feel less unnerved when a lesbian approaches my husband with comments about music or anything else. And - since hubby is not the tiniest bit gay (though not homophobic, either), he is neither attractive nor attracted to gay men.
It's not all that black and white, but I am developing a more refined sense of caution. Even if I'm currently erring on the strident side, it does help me find the balance point between that and my previous naivete.
What if you write about the way you feel so sad?
Dribs and drabs have come a couple of those "sad" songs, over the last few years. See (listen) here for mp3 "Spit it Out" from 2003:
Spit It Out (http://www.ersatzculture.net/Spit%20it%20out.aviragomusic.mp3) (hit refresh if it does not play at first). One of the worst vocal performances ever (I sound as weak as I felt), but it was hard to sing at the time. Need to recut, but hey. there it is, and some folks even like it as is.
T
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vocals sound good to me, fitting, to that 'long black road', I liked it
This site dedicated to the absence of extraneous fidelity and the pathology of sentiment.
There's no external truth and emotion is madness? I enjoy those ideas too.
Are you C or N? I like the DSM links also. 8)
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For fun: if you want to play your own music for pi to 10,000 places, this is the link for you: http://www.avoision.com/experiments/pi10k/pi10k.html
or instead, a lovely visual rep of a musical canon: http://www.avoision.com/experiments/round/
or check out the http://www.avoision.com/experiments/type/ for a surprising result
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Turning sh*t into gold, as they say. Thanks.
those links look interesting. I may try them out later, when I have a little time.
T
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Oops - replied too hastily and did not answer all queries (sorry).
I'm c, husband is (really) n.
Extraneous Fidelity refers to recording quality. Pathology of Sentiment refers to my habit of describing/considering pathological behaviors in literary/musical terms (religious obsession/Going to Heaven, for example). But yeah, emotion is madness, for sure.
The DSM Links are my ultra-cynical sense of humour in action.
I have an uncompleted recording about a favorite, highly accomplished narcissistic-type, as well (first line:
"Every gesture is poem, every phrase you make a ballet
elegant and perfect is your form...
ooooh, I just wanna be like you someday...")
Tres tongue-in-cheek.
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Hi again T and everyone reading:
...so worked at extending trust even when instinctively tempted to withold it, in an effort to keep perspective.
So would you say then, that you still have a very intact sense of trust but that now you intend to try harder to listen to your instincts?
...I KNEW the truth long before I could face it
In a way, this is good thing because it gave you time to prepare yourself to deal with it. Maybe this saved you from a great explosive shock? (although admitting the shocking truth to yourself is still pretty shocking, isn't it?).
...my filter for BAD wasn't good enough - it got through the holes because they were too big.
The holes are smaller now in my filter too. I guess another good thing that evolved out of a bad situation eh?
A couple of people have recommended I see "Single White Female"; they say it pretty well illustrates the identity-usurpation angle the (insert expletive) was working.
I haven't seen it either. Maybe I will rent it too. Will you watch it with your husband and then talk about it afterward? Sounds eye opening.
It was a truly harrowing experience.
Harrowing: extremely distressing, agonizing. extraordinarily painful, anguishing, excruciating, torturous. Yes. Harrowing.
I'm glad you're doing some things to enhance your life and health, T. And I love your voice. It's very nice and it makes you into a real person (instead of just words on a screen--even though your words do give you character). I found YOUR voice!!! (heehee--on voicelessness and emotional survival board). I liked your song too. It's very good.
My secret dream has always been to spend a couple of hours in a music studio. Not to record or to produce anything saleable really. Just for the fun of it and to hear what stuff sounds like with all the glory of technology to dress it up. Maybe some day. Who knows?
GFN
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So would you say then, that you still have a very intact sense of trust but that now you intend to try harder to listen to your instincts?
If I really think about it in a complete way, the lost trust is for myself:
Quote:
...I KNEW the truth long before I could face it
In a way, this is good thing because it gave you time to prepare yourself to deal with it. Maybe this saved you from a great explosive shock? (although admitting the shocking truth to yourself is still pretty shocking, isn't it?).
Actually, my strident resistance, that rigid evidentiary demand, caused me a great more anxiety than I believe I would have experienced had I not fought my instincts so hard. I was, I think, all the more devastated because I could hear myself but ignored myself despite. Actually, I was screaming quite loudly in my own ear the truth, but did not want to believe it, so I refused to - kept trying to "verify" my friendships, kept trying to overlook clear signs, ignoring perfectly acceptable cicumstantial evidence (such that would suffice in any court), waiting for something concrete (for too long, a couple of months).
In a sense, the most shocking betrayal I experienced was my own. Because of this, I still have trouble with self-trust and self-respect, and the concommitant feeling of loss, because I formerly believed I was secure in those things.
The holes are smaller now in my filter too. I guess another good thing that evolved out of a bad situation eh?
Yes and no. I think it is possible/probable that I overcompensate now, making the mesh a little too fine, but again, finding a mddle ground often requires exploring the limits on either side - otherwise,nhow do you really know where the middle is?
I haven't seen it either. Maybe I will rent it too. Will you watch it with your husband and then talk about it afterward? Sounds eye opening.
I haven't felt ready until recently. Now that my anger toward my husband has found it's rightful, healthy place, this may be a good way to help process the anger toward (expletive). Maybe not. Although it is rare for me to just spring anything potentially uncomfortable on my husband, I may do it anyway in this case. Otherwise, he may avoid/put off, but I think it important he see it too, if those who are telling me about it are correct in their assessment, so he can experience it with me. If those who talk about it are not correct, we've simply watched a movie, nothing lost.
It was years before I could stomach any film or television program that referenced infidelity or even mildly sexual scenes. He was queasy (and maybe still is a little) about the former, though, in typical manly fashion, unperturbed by the latter.
I'm better about it now, though I have a stormy little feeling anytime it comes up. I'm almost okay about the mildly sexual stuff, although I've never liked gratuitous nudity and sex in any film. I ain't no prude (used to be a "wild thing" in that respect, though a little more reserved now, more unsure of myself), but did not find it enhancing in film and still don't. Figure if that's what you want, cut to the chase, be honest, and go rent some porn. Don't mix the two.
Harrowing: extremely distressing, agonizing. extraordinarily painful, anguishing, excruciating, torturous. Yes. Harrowing.
Yup. My worst nightmare, 'ceptin' I was AWAKE.
I'm glad you're doing some things to enhance your life and health, T.
Need to do more, get back in my swing. I've gained 50 lbs in 2.5 years. Partly due to two knee surgeries, partly due to the sloth of depression, partly due to a deep-seated self-sabotage habit. Of course, I was about 15 pounds underweight for a time, on account of "people who make me lose my appetite, so sickening are they". Need to buck up and quit smoking, too.
My secret dream has always been to spend a couple of hours in a music studio. Not to record or to produce anything saleable really. Just for the fun of it and to hear what stuff sounds like with all the glory of technology to dress it up. Maybe some day. Who knows?
My advice: Get yourself a 4 track cassette/digital recorder (50.00 - 200.00 usaed, depending), a decent (50.00 - 100.00) uni-directional microphone, some decent (20.00) headphones, a cheap used guitar (10.00 - 50.00 yard sale), a copuple of cables (or borrow any of the above if you can)...and go for it.
Grab a chord chart, learn a few, make a song. With Four Tracks you have one guitar (or keyboard, if you prefer) track, a track for "percussion of choice" (kids aren't far off with the pots and pans - if it makes a pleasing sound when you strike it, it's a perfectly fine drum. So are cardboard boxes, bleach bottles, empty propane tanks (beautiful bell-like sounds, rich and resonant and textural) etc.). then you have two more tracks for vocals or whatever. If you want reverb on the voice or other instruments, set up in the bathroom or any small space with reflective surfaces. Organic technology, I call these things - and they are often better than what an average studio or producer or special machine will do for you.
Those machines are easy to use and the creative experiment is grand fun.
Take chances, or they might take you.
T
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Hi T and Everyone,
I really feel connected to a lot fo the things you are saying here. I had been searching for a long time to find a way to trust my wife. I've finally realized that I need to trust myself and the voice in me that is screaming "You aren't seen or heard here, protect yourself and leave" whether I like it or not.
So would you say then, that you still have a very intact sense of trust but that now you intend to try harder to listen to your instincts?
If I really think about it in a complete way, the lost trust is for myself:
Yes. After many years of suffering, I finally got my inner child to trust me and give up trying to be the adult/parent for protection by promising to protect "us" regardless of how I felt about it. In other words, to acknowledge how things actually are right now and act accordingly, rather than holding on hoping for a change someday.
Quote:
...I KNEW the truth long before I could face it
In a way, this is good thing because it gave you time to prepare yourself to deal with it. Maybe this saved you from a great explosive shock? (although admitting the shocking truth to yourself is still pretty shocking, isn't it?).
Actually, my strident resistance, that rigid evidentiary demand, caused me a great more anxiety than I believe I would have experienced had I not fought my instincts so hard. I was, I think, all the more devastated because I could hear myself but ignored myself despite. Actually, I was screaming quite loudly in my own ear the truth, but did not want to believe it, so I refused to - kept trying to "verify" my friendships, kept trying to overlook clear signs, ignoring perfectly acceptable cicumstantial evidence (such that would suffice in any court), waiting for something concrete (for too long, a couple of months).
In a sense, the most shocking betrayal I experienced was my own. Because of this, I still have trouble with self-trust and self-respect, and the concommitant feeling of loss, because I formerly believed I was secure in those things.
I've finally learned that telling myself that I don't understand and don't have a right to be heard because I don't "get" people or relationships was the only real problem I had in this area. In other words, I've finally learned that the message I got from my parents that my feelings didn't exist and didn't matter or have any meaning is false. Trying to live as if that belief were true when it is not is what got me most of the problems I've been "working on" for so long.
The holes are smaller now in my filter too. I guess another good thing that evolved out of a bad situation eh?
Yes and no. I think it is possible/probable that I overcompensate now, making the mesh a little too fine, but again, finding a mddle ground often requires exploring the limits on either side - otherwise,nhow do you really know where the middle is?
I finally gave myself permission to make mistakes, screw up, be overprotective of myself or anything else I need to do to figure out where I am and how to reliably get what I want in life. For me that includes making the mistake of accidentally rejecting what I want if I'm not sure yet that I want it. That sounds really confusing. Basically, if I'm not sure of what I what, I don't have to do anything about it right then except keep listening to my feelings and thinking about what I want.
My secret dream has always been to spend a couple of hours in a music studio. Not to record or to produce anything saleable really. Just for the fun of it and to hear what stuff sounds like with all the glory of technology to dress it up. Maybe some day. Who knows?
My advice: Get yourself a 4 track cassette/digital recorder (50.00 - 200.00 usaed, depending), a decent (50.00 - 100.00) uni-directional microphone, some decent (20.00) headphones, a cheap used guitar (10.00 - 50.00 yard sale), a copuple of cables (or borrow any of the above if you can)...and go for it.
Grab a chord chart, learn a few, make a song. With Four Tracks you have one guitar (or keyboard, if you prefer) track, a track for "percussion of choice" (kids aren't far off with the pots and pans - if it makes a pleasing sound when you strike it, it's a perfectly fine drum. So are cardboard boxes, bleach bottles, empty propane tanks (beautiful bell-like sounds, rich and resonant and textural) etc.). then you have two more tracks for vocals or whatever. If you want reverb on the voice or other instruments, set up in the bathroom or any small space with reflective surfaces. Organic technology, I call these things - and they are often better than what an average studio or producer or special machine will do for you.
Those machines are easy to use and the creative experiment is grand fun.
Take chances, or they might take you.
T
I agree. If you have a yearning to create music, go for it. It's NEVER too late. Another alternative you might consider: get some inexpensive software and use the soundcard in your computer to be your 4-track. I don't have any specific recommendations on software, but I'm sure you can find a lot of cheap or free programs on the internet.
I also recommend the book "Effortless Mastery: Liberating the Master Musician Within" While its oriented toward pianists, it talks about just enjoying sound the way you did when you were a kid and celebrating every noise that you create without having to judge or condemn either the sound or yourself for not being "better" or "good enough". It comes with a CD of meditations/guided visualizations. Here's a link if you're interested:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/156224003X/qid=1108138260/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-3448876-2131151
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Hi Longtire:
I have to admit that, although I am somewhat familiar with your story regarding your wife, I have little insight into your upbringing (usually the culprit, one way or the other, for an undeveloped respect for one's own voice).
I think that, although we have a right to be angry at adults that harm us from one adult to another, that anger HAS to be somewhat ameliorated and understood in its context, the context in which we, as adults ourselves, give tacit permission for mistreatment (and even invite it, at times) through our failure to recognize ourselves and our inner voices as valid, and our failure to let those inner voices be outer voices.
As promised, I don't take this philosophy into other threads on this board, but this is one of those situations where I think my preference for humanizing and de-labeling the harmful, adult other is useful. Not a polite gesture to save the feelings of the other, necessarily (though if the other is doing active work of their own, adviseable and humane), but useful in redirecting our attention to the "I" voice that is lacking in potency, unformed, or ignored.
As stated, the greatest and most shocking betrayal of all, in my adult experience with abuse and harm, was my own betrayal of myself.
I think in my case, as my mother was (and is still) not very adult, even in her role as parent, I became one of those "parentified little adults" early. Responsible for keeping an open mind, remaining objective, "forgiving" immature statements and actions, etc...exactly what we do for our children as we help them develop coping strategies and self-control/monitoring skills.
However, as a child, I did not have the power necessary to enforce intervention and punishment for misbehavior, nor did I have sufficient power to redirect maladaptive/abusive behaviors before they could fully occur. What I had was just what I have defaulted to in my adult relationships:
All the responsibility and none of the power.
I am realizing lately that the problem isn't because I have been, realistically, unable to take any power or demand responsibility of another adult, but that I had no previous experience with doing so, the automatic, unexamined outcome being: Repetition of History, to a certain degree.
In essence, whatever the faults, flaws or behaviors of other adults in my life, the real bottom line problem is in ME. Not that I am a bad person or an emotional masochist, I am simply untrained in the art of mutual, equal and direct give-and-take - especially on the take side of things.
If I do not watch myself carefully, I "let go" many behaviors, events, gestures - large and small - that cause me to eventually become poisonously bitter and resentful inside, and because I never learned to confront a harmful person directly and matter-of-factly, to SPEAK UP LOUDLY AND CLEARLY, I end up directing most of those poisonous feelings inward (even though they should be directed outward), further making myself mute. At that point, I do not want to confront the ugliness inside of me.
All this could be largely avoided if I do not "let go" in the first place, if I refuse the parentified role, and I just draw lines in the sand - lines that focus on what I need, what I want, what I will and will not accept - and further, lines that I then fill with concrete, so they can't be capriciously erased - by me or anyone else.
"Will" is an important term there, I think. I "can", without question, tolerate and accept more than the average bear - much more. However, just because I "can" hike barefoot through miles of desert with little food and water and probably survive, does that mean I should WANT to? That I should take every opportunity to do so? NO! Not unless I'm one of those outward-bound types - which I'm not.
I think in the past, I have had a wierd, twisted little pride about being so patient, tolerant, understanding, tough, resilient, etc. Looking at it from today's place on the map, however, I don't feel especially proud. What I see now is that, by neglecting to take the inner voice for a public walk has caused me to create in myself a Victim - just as unattractive a label as N or anything else.
We are fortunate, in Western Culture (though equally if not more unfortunate in other ways), that we CAN choose to dispense with any adult person who refuses to listen and act when we speak up. However, if we are not speaking loudly, clearly and firmly - with strong belief in the statements our voices are making - we cannot expect other adults to show interest in or respect for what is unclear in our voices.
Most especially, if we are not listening to ourselves at all, how on earth can we expect others to hear and behave accordingly? If we state our most important needs and wants and demands softly, subtly and/or with room for negotiation, we've not really stated a thing.
Every time we repeat this sequence, we further teach others that we are mealy-mouthed pushovers.
I don't mean to say that everything we talk about should be firm, absolute and written in stone. Restaurants and movies are negotiable, as is paint colors or chandeliers or vacation plans, etc.
But where our dignity is at stake, we must learn to speak in absolutes - and we must first learn to speak to ourselves. As soon as we can get us to hear us, we will then be equipped to make others listen.
My thoughts for the day.
T
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PS:
Although the computer systems are nice, the basic four track is portable and light (smaller than your average briefcase) - easier to drag to the bathroom for reverb, to the beach for ocean sounds (they usually have battery options) or outside at night for the cicadian accompaniment...Just my view, having tried all the above. I record here mostly on a big 24 track moster, but I still keep that little four-track kicking around, just in case, and some of the most creative work I've ever done has been on that machine. Less is sometimes more.
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I agree about speaking firmly and directly. I don't know about loudly. That usually turns people off and sounds too aggressive.
From my experience,
bunny
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Meant as metaphoric; I'm not always completely literal.
T
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T,
Your insightful comments bring up a lot of stuff for me...
Hi Longtire:
I have to admit that, although I am somewhat familiar with your story regarding your wife, I have little insight into your upbringing (usually the culprit, one way or the other, for an undeveloped respect for one's own voice).
I agree that my childhood family issues drive most of my problems. I'm starting back into therapy on Monday to work on those issues and whatever else comes up.
From my descriptions, my therapist believes that both my parents were depressed to some degree or other while I was growing up with them. My dad was invisible. He would come home from work and not really talk, or interact in any way. I remember him only either sleeping or watching television. My memories of my mother are of her being equally emotionally distant. In her case, though, she got angry quite a bit and "always" seemed on the edge of anger to me as a little kid. I never remember my parents talking about their feelings. When I would try to talk to them about my feelings I either got a disinterested "Oh, that's interesting" type of response or told outright "that's the way the world is, you'll just have to find a way to deal with it." I don't remember ever being held or soothed by my parents. When I asked about that my mother told me that "You just didn't want to be held." Huh?!? I was so shocked I didn't respond at the time. I wanted to be held, soothed and reassured by someone safe more than anything in the world. I would have given anything to have had that growing up.
The overall message I got growing up was that feelings were irrelevant and nobody wastes time paying any attention to them. I couldn't possibly ignore my feelings then, they were too powerful and always present (thank God!). So, the only way I could explain it was that I was an alien who didn't belong on this planet, since I had these feelings and couldn't ignore them "like other people did." It was not a game of pretend or a woe is me approach. I was really convinced that I had no place on this planet. Pretty heavy for an 8 or 9 year old, huh? This is just the tip of the iceberg, of course. But, I believe this demonstrates a lot of the sources for me to pick up WRONG messages growing up in that envorinment.
It's only very recently that I've been able to truly and deeply appreciate my feelings as precious and valuable and to insisit that people around me not ignore or diminsh them. Sharing my feelings, thoughts and beliefs with friends and in forums like this has worked out very well. Becoming more assertive at work has worked out very well. Basically, speaking with my own voice has worked well in every setting so far, except my marriage.
I think that, although we have a right to be angry at adults that harm us from one adult to another, that anger HAS to be somewhat ameliorated and understood in its context, the context in which we, as adults ourselves, give tacit permission for mistreatment (and even invite it, at times) through our failure to recognize ourselves and our inner voices as valid, and our failure to let those inner voices be outer voices.
As promised, I don't take this philosophy into other threads on this board, but this is one of those situations where I think my preference for humanizing and de-labeling the harmful, adult other is useful. Not a polite gesture to save the feelings of the other, necessarily (though if the other is doing active work of their own, adviseable and humane), but useful in redirecting our attention to the "I" voice that is lacking in potency, unformed, or ignored.
As stated, the greatest and most shocking betrayal of all, in my adult experience with abuse and harm, was my own betrayal of myself.
I have been emotionally stuck for many many years trying to "work things out" with my wife. It was not until recently when I simply accepted the situation as it quite obviously is that I was able to really start thinking about what I wanted to do about it. The hardest thing I have had to work through with this is intense shame for not standing up for myself and continuing to put up with my wife's verbal and emotional abuse. I did indeed enable it to continue. Now I am able to see that I was truly doing my best, and appreciate my efforts and desire to improve the situation.
The most helpful thing I am doing is working through the forgiveness process toward my wife. I'm npretty far along and no longer feel angry and resentful toward her. I've started feeling compassion and love toward her. I can't tell you what a change and how much relief and freedom I feel putting all that down! I no longer blame her for the problems between us, but I do recognize where we are both at in our lifelong growth.
One of the strongest brainwashings she got as a child was to avoid talking, feeling, or thinking about anything that could lead to conflict (with her enmeshed mother), ever. Be perfect, or don't be at all. When I try to discuss an issue between us, she denies that anything even remotely like that ever happened and that there must be something really, really wrong with me to keep bringing up these hallucinations of mine. She refuses to enage in ANY discussion about it, since it doesn't exist.
I was stuck myself before therapy, but I was not stuck in such a tight loop and it still took a major depressive collapse to get me to start changeing. It is going to be extremely hard work for her to break this cycle of denial about her denial and make any progress. I don't think it will happen unless and until she hits rock bottom somehow.
I'm not angry at her for this anymore. I realize that she is hurting way more from her beliefs and behavior than she hurts me. I am now grateful to feel sorry for her and would help her out of this if I could figure out how. Unfortunately in the meantime, the verbal and emotional abuse from her continues. I am not only speaking up now, I am holding my boundaries with her, starting with confronting her hurtful words and actions when they occur, refusing to interact further without an apology for those words and actions, and leaving the marriage if she is unable to modify her behavior in a positive way. I have also realized and am sorry for giving her the message that her behavior is OK by staying and continuing to put up with it in the past.
I think in my case, as my mother was (and is still) not very adult, even in her role as parent, I became one of those "parentified little adults" early. Responsible for keeping an open mind, remaining objective, "forgiving" immature statements and actions, etc...exactly what we do for our children as we help them develop coping strategies and self-control/monitoring skills.
However, as a child, I did not have the power necessary to enforce intervention and punishment for misbehavior, nor did I have sufficient power to redirect maladaptive/abusive behaviors before they could fully occur. What I had was just what I have defaulted to in my adult relationships:
All the responsibility and none of the power.
I too became a parentified child. To avoid being the target of my mother's physical and verbal abuse, I became invisible and tried to keep my distance, not make eye contact (lot of work for me left here), not make noise, etc. Since my dad wasn't really there, I learned to put my birthday and christmas present together myself, since I could do it quicker and easier. I had a very conscious recognition one day that I didn't see any reason why my parents "kept me around." They never told me I mattered, was valuable or precious, or had anything worthwhile to say. From that point on I was consciously trying to take care of them so they didn't just dump me and get another one just like me. Hmm I wonder if there is some fear of replacement, etc. from my 2-1/2 year younger brother? Something else for therapy.
In my marriage and other relationships, I took the responsibility for things I had no power, control, or influence over. I did speak up about things I wanted and needed from my wife to be in an intimate relationship with her (safe words, open communication, physical touch). She simply denied that any such thing happened, or didn't happen as the case may be. Instead of leaving then, I got caught up playing the game of trying to show her that she was mistaken. Of course, I understand now that was just a game she uses to avoid responsiblilty and intimacy based on the crappy messages and brainwashing she got from her mother growing up. I did speak up, but because of her issues, she did not care. When she overran my boundaries, I didn't stand up for them and myself. I kept trying to fix things and make things better so that just wouldn't happen anymore. Keep in mind that until I got to therapy, I didn't know the difference and allowed myself to be around people who didn't communicate, since that's what I was used to at home growing up. No one had ever talked with me about healthy relationships, boundaries or protecting myself (quite the opposite, actually).
I am realizing lately that the problem isn't because I have been, realistically, unable to take any power or demand responsibility of another adult, but that I had no previous experience with doing so, the automatic, unexamined outcome being: Repetition of History, to a certain degree.
In essence, whatever the faults, flaws or behaviors of other adults in my life, the real bottom line problem is in ME. Not that I am a bad person or an emotional masochist, I am simply untrained in the art of mutual, equal and direct give-and-take - especially on the take side of things.
If I do not watch myself carefully, I "let go" many behaviors, events, gestures - large and small - that cause me to eventually become poisonously bitter and resentful inside, and because I never learned to confront a harmful person directly and matter-of-factly, to SPEAK UP LOUDLY AND CLEARLY, I end up directing most of those poisonous feelings inward (even though they should be directed outward), further making myself mute. At that point, I do not want to confront the ugliness inside of me.
All this could be largely avoided if I do not "let go" in the first place, if I refuse the parentified role, and I just draw lines in the sand - lines that focus on what I need, what I want, what I will and will not accept - and further, lines that I then fill with concrete, so they can't be capriciously erased - by me or anyone else.
"Will" is an important term there, I think. I "can", without question, tolerate and accept more than the average bear - much more. However, just because I "can" hike barefoot through miles of desert with little food and water and probably survive, does that mean I should WANT to? That I should take every opportunity to do so? NO! Not unless I'm one of those outward-bound types - which I'm not.
I think in the past, I have had a wierd, twisted little pride about being so patient, tolerant, understanding, tough, resilient, etc. Looking at it from today's place on the map, however, I don't feel especially proud. What I see now is that, by neglecting to take the inner voice for a public walk has caused me to create in myself a Victim - just as unattractive a label as N or anything else.
I see a lot of myself in your experience. I too have been proud of how stubborn and tolerant I was. I no longer choose to tolerate or be around people I need to be stubborn against when I can help it. In my experience, if I assert my boundary and the other person adjusts, that person is usually sensitive and caring enough to be around. If I assert my boundaries and the other person doesn't get it, I'll usually try again in a different way to make sure it was not just a miscommunication. If it doesn't work that time either, I avoid being around that person as much as I can. I'd much rather spend my limited time with people who can repect me and have something good to give back.
We are fortunate, in Western Culture (though equally if not more unfortunate in other ways), that we CAN choose to dispense with any adult person who refuses to listen and act when we speak up. However, if we are not speaking loudly, clearly and firmly - with strong belief in the statements our voices are making - we cannot expect other adults to show interest in or respect for what is unclear in our voices.
Most especially, if we are not listening to ourselves at all, how on earth can we expect others to hear and behave accordingly? If we state our most important needs and wants and demands softly, subtly and/or with room for negotiation, we've not really stated a thing.
Every time we repeat this sequence, we further teach others that we are mealy-mouthed pushovers.
I don't mean to say that everything we talk about should be firm, absolute and written in stone. Restaurants and movies are negotiable, as is paint colors or chandeliers or vacation plans, etc.
But where our dignity is at stake, we must learn to speak in absolutes - and we must first learn to speak to ourselves. As soon as we can get us to hear us, we will then be equipped to make others listen.
My thoughts for the day.
T
I aree that it is my responsibility, not just my right, in relationship with other people to speak up and let them know how I feel, what I think and what I believe. That's the way to let safe people get to know me. I recognize that not everyone is at a place in their life or has gained the wisdom they need to be safe yet. I agree that doesn't make them bad people to be targeted. However, I do think it is important to accept that they are not presently capable of having an intimate realtionship with mes right now, and hope better for them tomorrow.
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Hi all:
Hi T. ...the lost trust is for myself:
..had I not fought my instincts so hard.
I could hear myself but ignored myself despite. Actually, I was screaming quite loudly in my own ear the truth, but did not want to believe it, so I refused to - kept trying to "verify" my friendships, kept trying to overlook clear signs, ignoring perfectly acceptable cicumstantial evidence ....
I still have trouble with self-trust and self-respect,....
You trusted your husband and you trusted your friend.
Your husband and your friend behaved badly (I'm sure there are more descriptive ways of putting it but I'm keeping it simple).
You ignored your suspicions and stuff your instincts were telling you.
Their behaviour continued.
The behaviour came to light.
You separated from your husband.
Your husband is working toward correcting the damage he caused and your friend isn't.
You've reunited with your husband.
What don't you trust about yourself? You are an intelligent woman. Do you belieive you will ignor your suspicions and stuff your instincts are telling you, if it ever starts to happen again?
No. Because you say: I overcompensate now, making the mesh a little too fine,...
Isn't this a logical way to avoid repeating this? Obviously, you've learned something by ignoring your instincts once already and don't plan on doing that again.
What don't you respect about yourself?
You went your separate way. You were not prepared to tolerate such behaviour and you still won't. You have accepted his taking responsibility for his behaviour, his remorse, he steps to improve himself and correct his behaviour by seeking therapy, his promises to be true to you, his attempts to make up for the damage he has done, his request for another chance to earn your trust...etc. You are a fair, forgiving, generous person....what's not to respect?
Your friend hasn't done any of the things your husband has done and you still have nasty feelings toward her.....anger......whatever......Trust those feelings. You are entitled to them.
...this may be a good way to help process the anger toward (expletive).
Those feelings do need to be acknowledged and released. It's understandable that they persist. She hasn't done anything to correct the harm she has caused.
Is it possible that you are repeating an idea from the past...all the responsibility and none of the power? But you are not responsible for the way they behaved. You are responsible for ignoring your instincts but now your mesh is much finer, so even the most innocent behaviours won't slip through the holes any more. You've taken responsibility for that and have the power to correct the mesh problem (and eventually it will find that middle ground you want it to).
You can't have all of the responsibility and all of the power. Only your part and you're beating yourself up now, after all this time. For what? Trusting? Loving? Wanting to believe in trusting and loving?
Your responsibility and power in this is very small. You didn't do this. You violated no one. You broke no vow nor disrespected nothing. It wasn't your fault, T.
If you had done this to your husband, would you say it was his fault because his mesh was too full of large holes and he should have listened to his instincts? Would you lose trust and respect for him? Would you say he has a reason not to trust himself? If you were the one who messed with his friend........how much power and responsibility would you give yourself then?
It was years before I could stomach any film or television program that referenced infidelity or even mildly sexual scenes.
No kidding.
I'm better about it now, though I have a stormy little feeling anytime it comes up.
No wonder.
I've gained 50 lbs in 2.5 years.... Need to buck up and quit smoking, too.
These are things you have responsibility for and power over. A little at a time...is my motto. Take care of you, T.
My advice: Get yourself a 4 track cassette/digital recorder (50.00 - 200.00 usaed, depending), a decent (50.00 - 100.00) uni-directional microphone, some decent (20.00) headphones, a cheap used guitar (10.00 - 50.00 yard sale), a copuple of cables (or borrow any of the above if you can)...and go for it.
Grab a chord chart, learn a few, make a song. With Four Tracks you have one guitar (or keyboard, if you prefer) track, a track for "percussion of choice" (kids aren't far off with the pots and pans - if it makes a pleasing sound when you strike it, it's a perfectly fine drum. So are cardboard boxes, bleach bottles, empty propane tanks (beautiful bell-like sounds, rich and resonant and textural) etc.). then you have two more tracks for vocals or whatever. If you want reverb on the voice or other instruments, set up in the bathroom or any small space with reflective surfaces. Organic technology, I call these things - and they are often better than what an average studio or producer or special machine will do for you.
Those machines are easy to use and the creative experiment is grand fun.
Thanks T. I've been playing a couple of instruments, singing, and writing music most of my life. Done a bit of playing around of this sort. Still think it would be amazing to be in a real studio some time.
Take chances, or they might take you.
I like this quote. Is it your?
GFN
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I aree that it is my responsibility, not just my right, in relationship with other people to speak up and let them know how I feel, what I think and what I believe. That's the way to let safe people get to know me. I recognize that not everyone is at a place in their life or has gained the wisdom they need to be safe yet. I agree that doesn't make them bad people to be targeted. However, I do think it is important to accept that they are not presently capable of having an intimate realtionship with mes right now, and hope better for them tomorrow._________________
longtire
Sometimes, that's the only and best place to be. I have to say, my separation was invaluable in many ways. I did not anticipate reconciliation, and though I am ultimatley glad that it happened, I moved forward with my life and my thinking based on the idea that it would never occur.
For this I am grateful. Although I have yet learned more since our (ongoing) reconciliation, I was able to set the stage for this new period during that time, when the only immediate (in my hourly life) enemy was ME.
Go with your gut. If your inner voice says: "This is untenable and intolerable," then honor it and make your move. My only real advice to you is proceed as though all bets are off and life is to become entirely new. Should that change, and reconcilitaion (the real and honest kind) become possible, so much the better. But do not proceed as though it is part of your plan - that will only backfire.
I am glad that my essays of self-discovery (basically what much of these now 26 pages - at least the non-argumentative parts - are based on/started by) are resonant for you. Hearing (reading) you state so is validating and much appreciated, although i do feel confident about my strategies and positions as they regard my own growth and potentials, with or without supporting/contradicting voices. I am learning to like the sound of my own voice, for better or worse. Practicing, refining, stretching tone and volume to measurable yet comfortable levels.
I am partiicularly gratified and impressed that you are able to feel love and compassion, despite the obviously hurtful flaws and tendencies of your wife. I think that our own capacity for love and compassion is what really defines us - not whether or in what quantities these qualities are present in others, whether we love them or not. Love and hurt have never been mutually exclusive, nor will they ever be. Education is truly what sets the concepts/feelings apart: Hurt and education are often tied together, though love and education may not be ever in the same room. We learn practically nothing without adversity - because we simply do not need to.
In that sense, we should feel a cetain gratitude to our persecutors (If I may wax completely philospophic for a moment). Without them, we are actually much less likely to bring ourselves nearer to completion.
T
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In that sense, we should feel a cetain gratitude to our persecutors (If I may wax completely philospophic for a moment). Without them, we are actually much less likely to bring ourselves nearer to completion.
Quite true and a very powerful statement. Sort of what my meditation book said today: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." I don't like feeling persecuted but I do like the feeling that I am growing and learning.
bludie
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Go with your gut. If your inner voice says: "This is untenable and intolerable," then honor it and make your move. My only real advice to you is proceed as though all bets are off and life is to become entirely new. Should that change, and reconcilitaion (the real and honest kind) become possible, so much the better. But do not proceed as though it is part of your plan - that will only backfire.
I truly believe that my path leads in a different direction from hers. Now that I can feel compassion and even love for her I believe that I've sort of earned the right to leave. It was always my choice, but I've learned what I needed to learn here. After all these years of wanting to go, now I'm also ready to move on.
I am glad that my essays of self-discovery (basically what much of these now 26 pages - at least the non-argumentative parts - are based on/started by) are resonant for you. Hearing (reading) you state so is validating and much appreciated, although i do feel confident about my strategies and positions as they regard my own growth and potentials, with or without supporting/contradicting voices. I am learning to like the sound of my own voice, for better or worse. Practicing, refining, stretching tone and volume to measurable yet comfortable levels.
I feel that sharing my story with others and having them share with me is the most important thing in life, only below taking care of myself. I'm glad to hear that my validation (of your perfectly valid experience) helps you feel good. Through reading, I've come to realize that no matter how confidant and self-connected you are positive strokes from other people always help and negative attacks always hurt. Also, I feel very validated by your appreciation. It's been a long time since I heard feedback that my talking and sharing is a help.
In that sense, we should feel a cetain gratitude to our persecutors (If I may wax completely philospophic for a moment). Without them, we are actually much less likely to bring ourselves nearer to completion.
T
I understand this and can appreciate that I wouldn't be where I am if it weren't for ALL of my previous experience. My heart still feels too much sadness and hurt to embrace this fully yet. I am greatful, but not happy about feeling greatful. Does that make sense?
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(thanks, bludie - for getting it!)
longtire:
It makes perfect sense. I have often said: "I could have lived an entire lifetime without learning any of this crap and been pretty damn happy!" I'm not sure that anyone or anything could ever get me to say "It has all been WORTH IT.". Damn doubtful.
However, here I am. Mud, mudpies - lemons, lemonade.
I will always mourn my innocence, my paradise lost (not that it ever really was, just that absurd pride of strength and whatnot). However, I
YAMMWHATIYAM -a bit more educated than before - and not just about my most recent heartbreaks, but about my entire history as a human being.
I think true illumination does not come without a price. And I further think, though it may be considered arraogant and narcissistic by some, that it is only when we think we have the power of absolute righteousness to our anger and our dismay, that we truly make ourselves blind to the real lessons inherent in our ADULT experiences (important disrinction).
I think that you, longtire, are well on your way to the ZEN necessary to make this about you - not in the narcissitic sense, but the healthy and self-affirming sense.
Of course, I have several glasses of the grape supporting this particular entry - be that as it may,
T
(More for you, Dear GFN, later).
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After all these years of wanting to go, now I'm also ready to move on.
Longtire, this statement helped me. Although my situation doesn't compare to the duration of yours, I really like how you framed this. It removes us from victim mentality and puts the whole saga within the realm of choice; reflective (rather than reactive) choice. You have come a long way since your first post, I do believe. No matter what you decide to do - stay or go - you have reclaimed yourself through all of this. Very important and empowering. Way to go.
I think true illumination does not come without a price. And I further think, though it may be considered arraogant and narcissistic by some, that it is only when we think we have the power of absolute righteousness to our anger and our dismay, that we truly make ourselves blind to the real lessons inherent in our ADULT experiences (important disrinction).
This means we can choose to come full circle with whatever pain, unhappiness or disillusionment we've experienced. Pain can be inevitable but suffering (and blame) is optional. When you first began posting, T, you emphasized that the labeling wasn't necessary in finding one's voice. For many posts you have expanded and built on this idea. Although at first I was uncomfortable with some of it, I now think I may have gleaned the intent of your previous posts. Perhaps it's as simple as realizing that despite being persecuted or hurt, steeping oneself in righteous anger and indignation prevents learning the true lesson. Then we're doomed to repeat it.
bludie
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Longtire
You seem to have come a very long way in a short time. I think it's fantatic that you can feel compassion for your wife but still realise that you probably need to move on. It won't be easy and it won't be quick but I hope you retain your inner strength and self-esteem during the process. Good luck - and look after your daughter along the way, as I am sure you will!
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T, bludie, serena, and everyone else,
I may have spoken too soon. Now I am back thinking that I want to take one more shot with a "confrontation" in the next joint counseling. I feel like taffy in a taffy pulling machine. First I'm stretched this way then I'm stretched that way....
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Longtire,
Bless your heart. Part of this process, I do believe, in finding our voices is to be okay with what we decide. Even if it leads us down a path we don't like, we at least have the recognition that WE made our OWN choice.
So no explanation needed on your part, as far as I am concerned. It's no small thing to end a marriage. Just try to be true to yourself in this process and honor the voice you've been successfully cultivating here.
My best to you,
bludie
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Perhaps it's as simple as realizing that despite being persecuted or hurt, steeping oneself in righteous anger and indignation prevents learning the true lesson. Then we're doomed to repeat it.
Exactly! My postulations are based on the idea that as long as we remain attached to using linguistic symbols of those feelings, we're more likely to miss opportunities to see past those symbols and into ourselves, which is where all the real answers lie.
I've been building and expanding on all this quite organically, in the sense that on a daily basis, either the ideas I generate at the time of posting lead to a new behavior, or a new behavior leads to a new idea.
A good example occured this weekend:
We were working on a new song - and such is his habit (under many circumstances), my husband would ask me a question then immediately interrupt my answer, instead playing or singing or talking about whatever it was/is before I could actually get in a word. As is also the norm, this repeated several times within a few minutes, and I was starting to get really annoyed. Ususally, one of these things woulld happen under these circumstances: I would either go silent and simmer and think about what a narcissistic bastard he is, how only his thoughts are important blah blah blah, how "He doesn't love me enough tomlisten to me! I'm so hurt!" or impatiently re-direct him "Would you PLEASE let me SPEAK and FINISH MY WHOLE THOUGHT before you you say anything else!!!".
This time, however, I just put my head down on the piano and started to laugh, and just said: "You're killing me. This is so funny".
At first, he was a bit horrified, "Don't laugh at me, I have a problem and you shouldn't let it affect you. (heard this before - my problem if I can't accomodate his problem, right?".
But I just kept laughing, and said: "Since I have feelings and cannot help but be affected by your problem, these are my choices of response, as I see it:
1. Get mad but don't speak, and then quit working with you because I get derailed by the resentment (Evil N symbol).
2. Get all hurt then feel like a big talentless loser and get derailed by feeling unloveable (unapprecaited, abandoned Martyr symbol).
3. Be confrontational about it, making both of us too mad to work (righteous Martyr vs. Evil N symbol, move over Wrestling Federation).
or
4. I can laugh, because if this were a scene in a movie, it would truly be funny (think Woody Allen symbol).
I'm choosing to laugh, because of all the choices above, it seems most healthy, and I'm really sick of the other choices. You could try laughing, too. And when I'm absurd, you can can laugh then, if you want, instead of getting mad."
Of course, he immediately dug into defensive mode, but instead of rising to the bait one way or the other, I just kept laughing. "I'm sorry, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let this eat me up. You can get eaten up if you want, but I'm choosing to see this for what it is: Funny. I'm not going to take this personally, and I'm not going to take responsibility for it either. I've just decided that the button you're pushing is the laugh track, not the angry track or the bitter tears track or the I'm Worthless track. They're my buttons, I can decide which one is going to be pushed! And - I love you dearly, and would rather laugh than get angry or hurt and decide that I don't enjoy loving you.""
It took a little while, but he eventually came around and said "You're right, it really is the only sane course of action under the conditions. It does make me feel bad, but the other responses would maybe even make me feel worse. I do have this problem, and maybe if I learn to laugh nore and get less defensive, it can improve."
I guess what I'm illustrating is that I decided that I AM IN CONTROL of how much I get hurt, because theses are MY feelings, and MY buttons and I get to dictate which buttons are available to be pushed. His problems belong to HIM, not to me. If my laughter pushes his buttons, HE can decide which of HIS buttons is to be pushed. I do not have to be responsible for HIS buttons, nor he MINE.
Sounds kind of quirly and wierd, maybe, but I found the whole situation illuminating - and we are well on the way to completing a very good new song.
T
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I've been building and expanding on all this quite organically, in the sense that on a daily basis, either the ideas I generate at the time of posting lead to a new behavior, or a new behavior leads to a new idea.
Thanks, GFN (Good Freind Now?), for all your kind comments/questions suggestions. Theya re great food for thought. However, I did want to quote myself above, just to let you know that each tiem I write - I not only am making confessionals and observations about myself, but that each post generates a new inspiration and/or new view. I actually think I'm doing okay, and slowly seeing the results that I've been looking for - getting out past the second wave, so to speak.
A liitle at a time, every day, I am doing just one small thing more toward valuing ME to the extent that I not only should but DESERVE.
It's working out.
T (Tender, Twit, Trouble, Tangible Results!)
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Longtire:
We all have a right change our minds. As said above, dissolving a marriage, no matter how troubled, is no small undertaking and should not be approached impatiently.
Go with your gut, even if your gut says something new or contrary today. Even consult with your gut on the hour and take data, looking at the statistics over time before deciding which hypothesis holds up (could seriously be worth a try).
As in my post above, if you can decide that YOU own your feelings and their associated buttons, you might be able to find better clarity.
I think you are a remarkable person to try so hard as you do to see not only the problems outside of you, but also those within. Few people can mange that very effectively, and when we have old, old habitual behaviors and respose patterns, it's very analogous to a couch potato suddenly getting up to bid for the decathalon gold - ambitious.
Feels good when you at least finish, though, even if a medal isn't waiting for you at the finish line.
Keep training -
T
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With the help of my old therapist, I realized that what has been holding me back from making a committment is also the same thing that has caused me to be so angry when dealing with my wife recently. I've been holding on and unwilling to admit that all the dreams and hopes that I had for this relationship are really and truly gone now. I let them go last nite with tears and now my path seems clear, without reservations.
I have learned the lesson that if I'm having trouble making up my mind, its because there is still something there that I haven't dealt with yet, which does need to be dealt with. Once I've done that, my choice and my course becomes clear.
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Hello T and Longtire and all reading:
...my husband would ask me a question then immediately interrupt my answer,
I would either go silent and simmer and think about what a narcissistic bastard he is, how only his thoughts are important blah blah blah, how "He doesn't love me enough tomlisten to me! I'm so hurt!" or impatiently re-direct him "Would you PLEASE let me SPEAK and FINISH MY WHOLE THOUGHT before you you say anything else!!!".
I had a similar experience and my response wasn't as effective as yours. I said: "I really don't like it when you interupt me and I really wish you would stop doing that".
This was a true statement expressing my thoughts but I don't think it diffused the anger the way your laughing did.
...these are my choices of response, as I see it:
1. Get mad but don't speak, and then quit working with you because I get derailed by the resentment (Evil N symbol).
2. Get all hurt then feel like a big talentless loser and get derailed by feeling unloveable (unapprecaited, abandoned Martyr symbol).
3. Be confrontational about it, making both of us too mad to work (righteous Martyr vs. Evil N symbol, move over Wrestling Federation).
or
4. I can laugh, because if this were a scene in a movie, it would truly be funny (think Woody Allen symbol).
I think there may be another choice or two here. When the problem first occurrs, what about something like this:
"I feel hurt and insulted when I am interupted as I am speaking. I doubt you are trying to hurt or insult me but that's how I feel. Would you please try harder to allow me to finish speaking before you start?"
5. I can Express my feelings calmly, with empathy, and ask the person to have respect for them. (have a voice symbol).
And if that doesn't work, and the person continues with the same behaviour, I can say:
"I'm starting to get right ticked off. I know how hard it is to break a habit but please understand that if you continue to do this, it will drive me away from this conversation/song writing session".
6. I can RESTATE my feelings calmly, with empathy, and ask the person one more time to have respect for them. (have patience symbol).
7. And if that doesn't work........I can leave the room, suggesting I will come back later and we can try again. I can go for a walk to help diffuse my anger. (calmly exit symbol).
Ofcourse, I didn't do any of this either. And your way certainly reduced the tension very quickly. It's expressing our actual pre-anger feelings and trying to help the other person understand the harm their behaviour is causing......that seems like the important thing to do when trying to have a voice and it might even help correct the problem?? It doesn't matter who's problem it is.......if it gets corrected......that's the goal, right?
And expressing our feelings calmly, rather than holding them in and allowing them to simmer and stew and eventually boil over, or eat away at us, is what so many who have been abused.....seem to have such a hard time doing, do you think? Maybe interupting was the only way to be heard...for those who's disposition was to keep trying, rather than just shut up and feel hurt, insulted and then angry?
Aren't those feelings are what build and make the problem worse, if not released? Laughing was definately a great way to deal with this situation. Sometimes, it may not be appropriate to laugh. Some people might feel that we are laughing at them and that might upset them even more. More importantly, I think, voicing our feelings gently, clearly, calmly, etc....and trying to let the person know that we don't believe they had the intention to cause us to feel that way.....is really communicating.
Thanks, GFN (Good Freind Now?)
That's a nice definition of those letters. Thankyou T.
GFN
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I have learned the lesson that if I'm having trouble making up my mind, its because there is still something there that I haven't dealt with yet, which does need to be dealt with. Once I've done that, my choice and my course becomes clear.
Longtire:
I think it's true that we linger so long as we have yet to learn/gain whatever it is we're seeking. Sometimes, it takes a long time for that to become clear. Ironically, vascillation can be a good sign that we're nearing a conclusion, if only because we now know what the choices really are.
I do think, however, it will probably be a while before you feel totally resolute all the time. OFten we have to make choices before all the data is in - at some point, we have to end the experiment and accept the hypothesis as theory, if data collected over time shows results to be entirely consistent. In good science, we know that the absolute answer will never appear, but we rely on theories like Gravity (it's still a theory, in science) to guide all the rest of our explorations, accepting it as a "working truth", if not an "absolute truth".
GFN writes:
"I really don't like it when you interupt me and I really wish you would stop doing that".
"I feel hurt and insulted when I am interupted as I am speaking. I doubt you are trying to hurt or insult me but that's how I feel. Would you please try harder to allow me to finish speaking before you start?"
"I'm starting to get right ticked off. I know how hard it is to break a habit but please understand that if you continue to do this, it will drive me away from this conversation/song writing session".
I can RESTATE my feelings calmly, with empathy, and ask the person one more time to have respect for them. (have patience symbol).
And if that doesn't work........I can leave the room, suggesting I will come back later and we can try again. I can go for a walk to help diffuse my anger. (calmly exit symbol).
IF I HAD A NICKEL...!!!!!
Tears are in my eyes, I'm laughing so hard at the thought. Of course, his narcissistic tendencies are pretty strong, so the above methods have little real effect, an he can easily twist and turn and escape the message (can anyone say deflect and project?). Also of course, the more I've gone through this, the more sensitive my negative buttons have become. The above "game" has been played for years and years on end - in discussions (anything remotely personal, anyway - other converstions are extremely rewarding, he's a brilliant guy in many ways, and brains make me hot), in arguments, in working situations, in "request" situations, you name it. When using the above measured and polite methods, it often takes as much as two hours to get my point across (or never, as I have to give up at some point), so adept is he at the twisting and turning etc.
I just finally decided to laugh, is all. When all else fails, go to the movies. This was absolutely the fastest and most effective means I have discovered in 14 years (i12, if you don't count the first two honeymoon years) to get him to cut to the chase, have a five minute or less discuission, and move on. Sounds wacky, but it really, really worked.
All those above methods would work most of the time with most people. They DO NOT work with my husband most of the time (sometimes, but not so often). He actually latches onto polite intervention as a deadly insult to his character, accusing me of condescending to him or treating him like a child (thus the more recent personal defaults of simmering, internalizing, or impatience - I'm tired of endless conversations with no results, and even more tired of being treated like "the enemy" when I'm trying so hard to be considerate).
One gets mightily sick of trying to be polite and nice when even that fails. It's been so tough, I've even started to get rapid heartbeat and sweaty palms any time I need to say something remotely personal, working out every single word carefully so as to avoid stepping on his toes, etc...but it has not worked. In fact, the more careful I am, the worse his response. He then tells me to stop talking like a lawyer! Accusing me of trying to be perfect and better than him! It's been no-win, until now.
Maybe it's just the element of surprise at work - I'm pretty damn sure that a) he wasn't giving any thought to his behavior/my feelings at the time, and b) he certainly wasn't expecting me to just simply crack up.
I think in a way, it actually gave him a little more humanity (is his eyes) than any of the above polite stuff, because for whatever reason, that always makes him feel like he's getting a "talking to". Especially when I pointed out the movie correlation - that scenes like this are classic comedic situations. So why not laugh? He GOT that; understood that if he were watching the situation from the outside, he would be laughing, too.
So for now, I'm going with it, as long as it works. IF it starts to fail, I guess I'll just try for a new "surprise". Meanwhile, I'm free of heart palpitations and sweaty palms, and my anxiety can take a much needed holiday.
T
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Hiya T and all:
One gets mightily sick of trying to be polite and nice when even that fails. It's been so tough, I've even started to get rapid heartbeat and sweaty palms any time I need to say something remotely personal, working out every single word carefully so as to avoid stepping on his toes, etc...but it has not worked. In fact, the more careful I am, the worse his response. He then tells me to stop talking like a lawyer! Accusing me of trying to be perfect and better than him!
"I feel hurt and insulted...."
"I'm starting to get right ticked off...."
These are expressions of a person's feelings. Are you saying that you don't express your feelings to your husband because when ever you do, he becomes defensive, accusatory and rude? You feel extremely anxious prior to expressing your feelings? You choose your words real carefully but can't just say what you feel? What do you feel like afterward?
It must be very difficult to have a relationship with a person who will not allow you to express what you feel and who responds like this when you do? If you can't express your feelings to him, what do you do with them?
...working out every single word carefully so as to avoid stepping on his toes..
What about your toes? Who's being careful not to step on them?
GFN
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Hi all:
Not ignoring anyone; have had the flu. In bed for days, dizzy, headache, bodyaches, sore throat, fever, chills,coufh - you name it, I got it.
Soon.
T
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Hello,
I am new to this site and I also find Dr. Grossman's articles enlightening and helpful. The "Voicelessness" mantle is much more powerful and meaningful to me than "Narcissism" because it speaks to the true suffering involved in these relationships.
When I read the posts, I am not overlly concerned with what noun or pronoun people use, but with the meaning of what they are trying to say. This, I think, is far more important than how it is said. The pain is real, the anger is real, the recovery is long.
I am no expert on Narcissism, but I believe it has many faces, some more ugly than others. I suspect that with most who have suffered the bad behaviors of a Narcissist, will agree that the pain usually far outweighs the joys with these folks. In my own case, I don't believe my mother is anywhere near as damaging as some, but the damage to me was deep and long lasting. It took decades to reach the place I now inhabit within myself. The truth is, in one way or another, much of my life has been devoted to her and recovering from her.
I am fairly far along in my own journey and I, too, am looking for answers and information which may not be found entirely on this site. That may be more than we should expect.
I am grateful to have found any site which helps me to better understand that which I was so alone with for so long. And if my sharing helps someone else along the way, I am grateful.
Good luck with your quest, Jo
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Hello everyone:
Oh T! So sorry to hear that you have the f+&*%'n flu!! It sucks!!! Hope you are feeling better real soon! Take care of you.....K......nag..nag..
Hi Jo:
Welcome! Nice to see you posting.
I am not overlly concerned with what noun or pronoun people use, but with the meaning of what they are trying to say.
Yes!!! Looking forward to getting to know you Jo. This is empathy loosely but if you ask me, accurately defined. It might not be in the dictionary as such, but it sure sums it up real well. Thankyou for putting it into these words.
I don't believe my mother is anywhere near as damaging as some, but the damage to me was deep and long lasting.
Jo....the damage to you was deep and long lasting which makes your mother's behaviour just as near damaging as anyone elses. The pain can be easily seen or very hidden. The blows can be sharp and quick or slow and incidious. The results are the same. Harm. Hurt. Pain.
Yours is just as real as anyone else's and you are entitled to speak about it, if you wish to.
I am fairly far along in my own journey...
Glad to hear that. What has helped you so far? Do you feel comfortable sharing about it?
I hope you will find some answers that you are seeking. Best of luck to you too! Hope to hear more from you!
GFN