Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dawning on January 17, 2005, 05:06:32 AM
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Hi Everyone. Happy New Year. I just finished reading the thread about trying to save people. It really touched on some things for me as well. At the moment, I need to put this post on the board. I don't need advice but I need to let my voice out. I am back in the land of the rising sun and did a retreat in California which was very, very much what I needed. I didn't smoke or drink for the duration and felt no desire to. I am not a big smoker or drinker but I do so in social situations here where I live. I discovered there that, in that environment, I had no desire to light up a ciggie or drink a beer. I am still in the process of working it out. And taking control of my life.
So I came back here on the 10th. My grandmother was admitted into the hospital on the 13th. She is 92 and basically getting ready to leave us. I know she was taking alot of pain killers behind everyone's back and it must have effected her liver somehow. It is a *medical* long story.
I phoned my grandmother and mother on xmas day. My mother said, *you, dog, you came all the way to California but didn't come to the East coast* to which I replied, "if you speak to me like that, I won't want to come to the East Coast." To my amazement, she didn't pick a fight. I went on to talk to my grandmother along with my mother and steered the conversation so that they would be talking about themselves. I told them that I loved them...coo....coo....at the same time, there was a lot of traffic through the kitchen I was in and I was talking to a fellow on his way out the door. My mother didn't ask alot of questions nor did my grandmother.
But we assured each other that we loved each other. Now, I can say this here, I am not sure I know what *love* is but I can say that I have received more of what seems like love (acceptance is in there) from friends than from my mother. And I finally crawled out from under her shadow relatively recently in my 40 years of life. I feel as though I have given alot to my family but will it ever be enough....
Now grandmother is hospital. My aunt and cousins went to visit her. The aunt and cousins have a tense relationship with my mother and (with the exception of one cousin) me...by proxy, it seems. I got my mother's weeping msg on my answer phone and I called my cousin. We talked for about an hour and she said she would keep me informed. I then called my mother and listened to her. I told her to *be strong* and after the call, I collected myself and wrote a letter to my grandmother and emailed it to my mother. I told her to have someone else read it to my grandmother if she couldn't read it without crying. So, she said, she had the nurse read it to her and my grandmother smiled.
How can I put into words what I put in that letter? Yes, my grandmother was my guiding light (and my grandfather who passed away in 2001) when I was a little girl. As soon as I hit adolescence, all hell broke loose and the dysfunction started becoming clear. I left the country at 23 and returned for regular visits. This xmas was the first time I didn't leave the west coast. I last saw my grandmother in 2003 and we shared a very nice two weeks together.
I know death is inevitable esp at her age. I have tried reaching out to a few people here as this is upsetting to me but I also don't want to *bother* anyone with my woes. I feel as though I have given and given and given and it will never be enough. So I am trying an alternative approach: giving to myself.
However, those two Christmas boxes remained unopened. I opened my grandmother's one just a few days ago so I could put in the letter that I received her gifts. They were photographs. One, of my grandfather. On that framed photo, she wrote, "your grandfather as you knew him." A part of me wants to simply say, "what makes you think that you know how I saw him?" It feels like a boundary violation but, at this point, all I can think of is to let it all go. Just let it all go.
My mother and one cousin were not talking. According to my mother, my aunt and two cousins went to see them for one day - I guess they flew. And everyone hugged and the one cousin finally spoke to my mother. As my mother said to me, "we shared a few laughs, that is that and they left."
The other cousin has not sent me any info about this. I am not waiting for any. I am not victimizing myself here, but I am used to feeling *duped.* I have no information on a funeral service. She is still alive as far as I know. I think I am getting closer to letting go of the pain I endured as a child; that doesn't mean that I will allow them to hurt me anymore or that I trust them but, rather, that I am getting closer to detaching from the pain and moving on and get off this cycle of pain, pain, pain that has forever been stuck to me.
I got an ecard for xmas from my father. It said simply that it was snowing...alot where he was and he had not seen snow like that since one year before I was born. I did not reply. I thought of emailing him a few nights ago - and wrote an email but didn't send it - thanking him for the ecard and telling him about my maternal grandmother. And, since he is so fond of putting a quote at the end of his recent emails (except that one he didn't respond to where I asked him for my half-brother's contact info) I thought I would put a quote in myself: "It is the truth that frees, not your efforts to be free." But I didn't send it. Having that quote in my heart is enough for me. I am not sure why I would want to give it to him. To help him see the light? Ha!
That is all I can think of to write at the moment. Thank you for reading my post and for listening. Any comments are always welcome but not necessary. Thank you again. 2005! Yay!
xo.
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Hiya Dawning, :D so glad you had a good retreat. But what an emotional mess on the East Coast. Good answer to your mother, about not speaking to you like that.
I am not sure I know what *love* is but I can say that I have received more of what seems like love (acceptance is in there) from friends than from my mother.
It would be good if we could rely on our mother’s love. If we could be sure that every baby born has it’s mother’s love, but it’s not a ‘given’. We happen to have been unlucky in being born to the families we were born to. It’s a sadness but that’s the situation. And when we see the situation clearly, we can help ourselves and look for loving relationships elsewhere. You’re doing this. :D
but I also don't want to *bother* anyone with my woes
If I want to be bothered with your woes I will be. True! If I don’t I won’t. I once asked a friend “why are you doing this for me?”. I realise now that’s a dumb question. She was doing it because she wanted to. And she was helping herself too. Very rarely is any interaction one-way. I get something out of talking to you. By writing this I get to clarify my own thoughts. So thank you!
A part of me wants to simply say, "what makes you think that you know how I saw him?" It feels like a boundary violation but, at this point, all I can think of is to let it all go.
That idea of yours seems both rational and emotional. Rational - she can’t know how you saw him (it’s her idea of what she thinks you thought). Emotional – you might feel that she’s trying to tell you she knows how you think, feel etc. “I know what you’re thinking” is a lie from anyone. They don’t. But if they say that, they’re trying to control you, influence your thoughts and make you doubt yourself. But this photograph and message from your grandmother, maybe she’s trying her best. Maybe she’s trying to relate to you in the only way she can. Maybe she is trying to give you something. Her intention may be good in her mind. Unfortunately she doesn’t know you well enough to really connect with you, and that’s sad. You don’t have to do anything. You can’t change her, all you have to decide upon is your response (your internal reaction) to what you have received. She doesn’t know how you decide to react.
I have no information on a funeral service. She is still alive as far as I know.
Do you want to go to the funeral? If so maybe you’ll need to ask someone to tell you the details. But you don’t have to go. Funerals are for the living, we attend them for the living, not the one who has died.
Good to hear from you Dawning. Please keep posting, this sounds like a difficult time for you. Best, P / S
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I wanted to mention this too:
I got an ecard for xmas from my father. It said simply that it was snowing...alot where he was and he had not seen snow like that since one year before I was born. I did not reply.
An ecard hey? Big deal. :x Sorry. I don’t like your father. If he can’t be bothered to send a real card with a stamp on, I wouldn’t reply either. And talking about the snow – telling you what is happening in his world right there and then – indicates that total lack of empathy or awareness that drives me nuts.
It’s very much to me that ‘out of sight out of mind’ thing. I exist to them only when they choose to think about me on their terms. When they don’t think about me, I don’t exist to them. Literally! I’m just an object that doesn’t have feelings, experiences or thoughts. I just sort of 'stop being' until I enter their radar again.
But that line about ‘before I was born’. It could be manipulative (I care about you, I remember when you were born) or, more likely I think, it could be cause and effect thinking: (I was thinking about when did it snow like this before and I remembered it was before you were born and I thought hey I’ll send you an ecard about the snow). Gosh. :o So actually, sending the ecard, it might have been about the snow and not about you? :( How did I get there? Don’t know if any of that helps D, but I’ll slap it down anyhoos. Just thoughts as usual. P/S
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Hi. :)
If I want to be bothered with your woes I will be. True! If I don’t I won’t. I once asked a friend “why are you doing this for me?”. I realise now that’s a dumb question. She was doing it because she wanted to. And she was helping herself too. Very rarely is any interaction one-way. I get something out of talking to you. By writing this I get to clarify my own thoughts. So thank you!
This is how I feel. So nice to hear and thank you too. They key is honesty. At the retreat, we had *dialogues* every Tuesday where a group of us would talk things out in an atmospere of equality with no one as *the teacher* and no followers/students. We had a bit of moderation but not much. These dialogues were so uplifting. I feel like that on this board too. That we are flowers unfolding by listening and responding to each other. :)
But this photograph and message from your grandmother, maybe she’s trying her best. Maybe she’s trying to relate to you in the only way she can. Maybe she is trying to give you something. Her intention may be good in her mind. Unfortunately she doesn’t know you well enough to really connect with you, and that’s sad. You don’t have to do anything. You can’t change her, all you have to decide upon is your response (your internal reaction) to what you have received. She doesn’t know how you decide to react.
Thank you for this perspective. In the letter to her, I wrote that I received the photographs and I appreciated them and that I will look after them...and I certainly will. What I have are memories of being used, of being *the container* as Bunny put it for everyone else's sh*t. They are memories yes...and I responded by eventually - leaving. But you are right - she is trying to give me something, to relate to me. And she may very well be on her deathbed now (almost one month after receiving the box from her). I thank you, Guest, from the bottom of my heart, for this exchange.
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oops! Me, above.
p.s. An afterthought... it is not sh*t I got from her in that box as you so wisely pointed out. It is her way of relating. And she doesn't know my reaction. I am new to this understanding of *reaction* but sharing reactions with people you trust and love (in our case, not family members) is quite a beautiful thing. :)
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me too! in disguise 8) got my poncho and big cowboy hat on, chewing on a cigar :roll: and then I wake up ha ha :D too lazy to log-in, sorry D
PS. It is her way of relating.
yes, it still might be motivated by all sorts of manipulative rubbish though. I don't know. She could have good intentions, she could have spiteful intentions. I don't know. Either is possible so I guess the best we can do is see both possibilities and decide which one we think is nearest reality. If we have to decide. We might just let it hang there in the ether, sort of 'I don't know why she sent this but do I need to know? I think I like it/hate it and will act accordingly'.
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Portia wrote:
If we have to decide. We might just let it hang there in the ether, sort of 'I don't know why she sent this but do I need to know?
Hmm...yes. I can see my mind getting around this one like you stated above. Kinda like the oberver is the observed.
What is also becoming clearer is that *the family* somehow was torn apart so long ago and that it was not my fault for being born. My cousins and aunt went there yesterday for one day and the one who won't talk to my mother said to her (and my mother quotes) "thank you for taking such good care of grandma" and hugged her. If they reunite, great. But something tells me that he only said that as a parting farewell. Like, when my grandmother dies, all relationships in the family will die too. (Not that I ever felt a part of my family...I just feel duped that I believed I was *the problem* of the family for so long) and in the process hated myself and got into all manner of sadistic relatioonships. Blah...blah.
Thank goodness for the generous souls on this board. Thank you.
And, you're right, Portia, I am reaching out and looking for loving relationships elsewhere. Just need to take it step by step. I trip alot.
I feel sorrow now. And, I've heard it said that "where there is sorrow, there can be no love." But I *do* feel sorrow that the family was split.
As for my father, I don't like him either. And that's a good first step. I don't want my father anymore nor do I like him or want to look for him in other men but that's a different post.
What I aim for now is to examine my mind as it is happening now to understand myself in relationship more. And being here really helps.
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Welcome back, Dawning! I'm sorry about your grandmother. In the past few years I've witnessed the demise and funerals of quite a few elderly relatives and in-laws. In my experience,
--- there are a relatives living far away who don't fly here to see the relatives before they die, nor the funerals, and that's okay. It wouldn't change anything if they did and I feel their concern from the distance which is sufficient.
--- I don't believe in deathbed miracles changing anyone. I haven't seen it happen yet.
--- We can't stop anyone from dying, all we can do is remember them fondly if we liked them. I certainly didn't like all of these relatives who died, in which case I can only say, "Goodbye."
--- I'm trying to create a positive relationship with my younger relatives so they will still like me when I'm an old crone.
bunny
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Thanks Portia and bunny.
My mother just sent me an email. She said that if I wanted to add anything to my grandmother's obituary that I'd better "send it now." But I just spoke to the nurse and she said that my grandmother is doing better but they'll know one way or the other by Friday if she will pull through. I feel a little funny adding any comments to an obit. when the person is not yet deceased. Is this a common thing to request (an obit comment before someone has died)?
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MY mother has been writing her own obit for years...that's funny-but not. She must fear terribly that no one will have anything good to say. True, it will be challenging to focus on the flattering parts, but we would not assasinate her in an obit, certainly.
Which, in a roundabout way, brings me to the subject of Love & Boundaries.
I think often about the ways in which I love my mother and the ways in which I don't - cannot.
I love my mother in a distant sort of way, never too close. Experience taught me to keep enough distance to stay safe, both emotionally and, to a lesser degree, physically.
Ironically, we are both terribly disappointed that we are not close. For me, the disappointment does not outweigh the risks, and for her part, she cannot/will not see why we are not close.
Basically, we both mourn because our fantasy parent-child love does not exist.
All that said, it is better in some ways than it used to be.
What apparently caused her to at least practice some self-monitoring was very much like what you describe above - a threat, simply put.
After a lifetime of constant criticism (causing me to doubt my every move), I had a child of my own. As far as I, the pediatrician, my friend with the PhD in developmental psych, and everyone else could see, she was a very bright child, happy, curious, engaged, 95 th perfcentil weight and height, developmentally ahead of of peers...no harm/no foul, right? Pretty good job with a pretty good kid, right? Not in my mother's eyes...
"You hold her too much..."
"She doesn't get enough sleep."
"She's always's sick (H got a cold once or twice)."
"Are you sure she should eat that? Drink that?"
"She's underdressed/overdressed..."
"I'm worried because you don't do this, that and the other thing...and you do this that and the other thing...."
On and on and on...This would be funny in a movie, but it hurts and it sucks in life.
Finally, one day (this time she called to give me the number of some quack doctor to find out what was "wrong" with H - what a movie, indeed), I said:
"Listen. I'm tired of this. The evidence is right before your eyes.The kid is happy, healthy an FINE. I work hard at being a Mom. I know I do a good job and I don't care what you think. You have never said one single meaningfully complimentary thing to me in my life, and I'm sick to death of it. As a matter of fact, from now on, if even one criticism passes your lips, I'm hanging up. Period. If that means we don't ever speak again, so be it. I certainly will not miss this crap."
For the first time in memory, she was silenced. After a minute she said, "O.K.". We then changed the subject.
Now, I can't say she's never been critical again, nor can I say that haven't let any of it slide (I have, in favor of the general peace), but it is much less frequent now...and she's even tried being complimentary (truly, without a "but" or an "if" attached) a few times, if somewhat awkwardly.
It ain't perfect, but it is better, and I thank the Boundaries for that.
You did absolutely the right thing, but you know that already.
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Hiya Dawning. She’s organising huh? “Send it now” what nonsense. “Send it now” – or else? Or else what?
You could challenge her – “why now? Grandmother’s not dead yet so you haven’t exactly got a deadline to meet have you?” But no. Maybe she just wants to organise everything now so that she doesn’t have to do it later, maybe when she’ll be emotional and unable to cope with obits and the like. That’s me trying to be kind to her. :? Tricky.
But of course the better idea is to remain calm and say you don’t feel happy about doing that while she’s still alive. And what sort of obit is this anyway? For a newspaper – do you know? Take it easy and keep talking, P
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Dawning: you said a lot, and so did others in reply that are all very thought provoking. I do believe, though, that you have touched on some very powerful things that indicate you are on the road to healing:
(sorry, haven't figured out that nice quote thing, bit of a Luddite, I am):
You said (after much much much thinking) that you should just "let it go". Exactly!!! Let go! Attachment equals suffering. If you are going to obsess and think think think about your suffering, make room to think about that statement. YOU are not your problems. You are something wonderful, untouched by the pain of the world. Let go of the pain, why hold it? Drop it. Like a suitcase full of shit you don't want. Focus instead on the wonderful person you truly are....and deserve to be (you have taken steps that show you know this, by choosing to accept or not accept certain treatment by others!)
And along those lines, you also said something about deciding you can't take care of everyone else so you will have to take care of yourself. Exactly, again!!!!
Truth is you can't ever make other people happy (it is an internal process) and the best you can do is learn to be happy yourself! And, lo and behold, hey, that happiness is contagious, and your well being heals those around you (not instantly, mind you, because they also have a choice).
Bottom line, every single moment, every single day, your life is your choice! (this coming from a woman who used to view herself as "trapped" and if you want to talk legalities, you could very well say I am). But I am and can be what I want to be....regardless of past choices or circumstances.
The universe is not trying to hurt us, it is presenting us with lessons, all the time, that we create for ourselves. Learn and grow and be happy, our only true purpose...and look at that, you are on the way!!!
It's a process, this life thing, this purpose thing...might as well have a good time. If your intention is pure, and motivated by love, why shouldn't you have happiness?!
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Is this a common thing to request (an obit comment before someone has died)?
Dawning,
A few weeks before my grandmother died (15 years ago), my mother, myself & my sister were visiting the province where she lived. One of the "missions" my mother had in going was to, along with her sisters, pick out the burial dress of my grandmother.
So, we were having a nice visit at the hotel where my grandmother was allowed a day pass from the hosp., and my mom pulls out these two dresses, shows my grandmother, and asks her which she prefers to be buried in!!! My sis & I were absolutely mortified & thought this was so morbid, but my mother didn't seem to think anything of it. To me, my grandmother looked very sad when she said the one she preferred but didn't comment much else on the scenario.
My point is that I guess some people do things in different ways... But I don't think others ways should be forced on other people. For example, if my mother had asked me to find out which dress my GM wanted to be buried in, I would have flat out refused.
I view it as similar in your case. She is your grandmother whom it seems you love a lot, and you have the right to do as you feel comfortable. If it feels weird to you to write any comments before (it would feel so weird to me, too), I wouldn't.
I would not do anything that I did not feel right about when someone close to me that I love, was passing away.
I also thought of something else regarding my mother. It could have been that she was so distraught by the impending death of her mother that she had shut off her emotional part and was being very mechanical. I know how much she loved her mother. I don't know if it could be the same with your mother's request. But it doesn't change anything. I wouldn't get forced into doing something I didn't feel comfortable with.
If she goes ahead & does it without you, you can always do your own personal one later if you desire. But truly, Dawning, you already did the most beautiful thing in writing your grandmother that letter. It was not a formality for "the world" to see, but a very personal letter, directly to her heart & spirit.
It doesn't get much better & more meaningful than that.
BT
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I'm puzzled by this board technically sometimes lol.... It says I am logged in yet posted my message as "guest" & not with my username.
I'll try to write it manually. If it doesn't work then I'm just mentioning that the above message is mine (bluetopaz).
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BT, mum, Portia, bunny, guests...
I just got a call from my mother...my grandmother made the transition painlessly (she was on a morphine drip) early on the morning of the 23rd.
Thank you for the support. The waiting and wondering was very difficult.
I want to post here again after a period of writing in my journal - mostly about my childhood that my grandmother was so much a part of.
Thanks again for your contributions to this thread. And I welcome more. It helps to talk. I'm just in a bit of a passive mood right now.
p.s. I told my mother that I felt writing an obit for a person who was still alive was bizarre. She accepted my opinion and didn't try and pick a fight. But, now, I will most certainly write one.[/i]
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Dawning,
So sorry to hear about your grandmother. It sounds as if she was a positive force in your life and the family unit. Be kind to yourself as you grieve your loss. And as others have suggested, stick to your boundaries. My family situation has shown that whatever issues were lurking before the family crisis, they seemed to intensify and erupt because people are emotionally raw. Take care of yourself through all of this. I hope you can continue to build on the progress you've made through the discovery: What is also becoming clearer is that *the family* somehow was torn apart so long ago and that it was not my fault for being born.
Best,
bludie
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Dawning,
My condolences to you. I'm glad your grandmother didn't suffer.
bunny
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My condolences to you {{{Dawning}}}
BT
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Dawning,
I'm sorry for your loss. Think how lucky you were to have a Positive
G-mother in your life. Her life must have been made wonderful to have had you as a granddaughter. It is only time that will let the pain of her passing fade.
Just remember when you miss her so much that you cry and feel sad, she loved you and to have given you this feeling is a blessing.
Some G-parents, parents, are not missed and their childeren never shed a tear. I'm not saying to let the sadness stay with you for too long, only long enough to see that she made you an important person in her life and it's normal to miss her because she loved you and you loved her too.
How Lucky you are, keep writing in your journal about your life with her.
Remember the happy times and get in your heart that you were blessed.
onlyrenting
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I am so sorry you have such a loss. My grandmother was my heroine and died when she was 99. I adored her. She was wise, funny, clever and the best company ever. I longed for her visits and I was shattered when she died.
This is probably not the case with you, but since her death I have been thinking how she produced such a narcissistic lunatic as my mother.
I have come to realise that she was the cause!!! She was everything I said she was but she was also a narcissist. This didn't impinge on me as a child or an adult because she was not my primary caregiver and I could only see the positive side to her.
I'm glad to say, thankfully, that this pattern didn't repeat itself. I'd far, far prefer to be the flawed but human person that I am.
I have suffered hugely because of my mother and literally spent a decade housebound with depression. Through therapy, I have peeled away the wounds and although still very raw, feel whole again.
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Thinking about you (((Dawning))) and will be here to listen across the time-zones, take lots of care of you, Stephx
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Dawning: So sorry for your loss. God Bless you and keep you. Many hugs. Patz
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Thank you all for your condolences and messages. Unfortunately, I am still so stubborn as to think that my mother can show any empathy or care towards me whatsoever.
First, my grandmother specifically stated *twice* that she did not want a funeral so there will be no funeral. I have no idea what is going on because when I call my mother to see how she is doing, she doesn't make any sense. She doesn't ask me how I am doing or how I am feeling. I sent an email to my blood relatives (except for my father who I believe doesn't care one way or the other) suggesting that we take a 5 minute moment of silence and coordinate it so that it could be at the same time. My female cousin responded and we are preparing to do that tonight. In a state of vulnerability - after having listened to my mother talk about herself for one hour on the phone and not setting any time limits b/c I thought she needed me to listen....I finally piped up and told her about some of my childhood memories regarding my father. She then proceeded to tell me that she did not believe me, that the doctors "put all this stuff in your head" and I told her that she didn't have to believe me but I would like her to respect my memories even if she questions them. She can't do this. And it hurts. Last night, she started talking about some distant cousins of hers (that I didn't even know existed) and one, in particular, who "makes life hard on herself but that is her choice." I know this way of hers....I told her, "pardon me, but it seems like you are using this cousin to make a point about me. But, I think you misunderstand...I am getting better, I am happy and I can live with the truth (however painful it is) more than living with lies." She didn't understand. She continued to tell me that the reason I was having these memories was because I was "hanging out with sad people." I, again, told her that I didn't feel that way; that I had a support group and that I was getting stronger and gaining more confidence. And her next line, "you know damn good and well that I support you." I told her that if she could not respect my memories thus causing me to self-doubt myself, that I would pull back from her and I don't want to do this. She then said that I was trying to control her and said, "I don't like that one bit." But, then, eventually it came back to being about her. The woman down the street telling her, "your mother may be dead but I'll be your mother" and how she is living in the house that her mother lived in and breathing the same air as she breathed and on and on and on...and that I should pray to god for salvation. My cell phone then rang and I spoke to the person and said, *I will call you back. I am talking to my mother and she is really wound up.* When I came back to the landline, she had hung up on me. I was stunned. I called my friend back and she called me back. She told me that she heard me say "my mother won't shut up" and I told her that she misunderstood. Then, it dawned on me....yes, I am dealing with a 6 year old mentality. Coo...coo....coo...tell lies but never, never face the truth. I am just not about that. And the more this dawns on me, the more painful her denial becomes and I see if for what it is: she would rather bring me down emotionally and psychologically than listen with a caring ear. Someone told me recently, *if you feel threatened in a relationship, then there is no relationship. A relationship exists as an entity on its own that needs nurturing and caring.* The painful part, for me, is to stop being so stubborn and accept that my mother will never see the relationship between us that way. I want to be there for her in her time of need and she takes advantage of it. But she *appears* to others as she would like them to see her. She said to me, "you have a good heart and a good soul but you are messed up in the head." And I don't believe this for a second. But it still hurts to hear it. This is the transition: the more I stand up for myself, the more threatened she gets. Why is that?
Thank you everybody for listening to me now.
With love and an open heart,
Dawning.
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This is the transition: the more I stand up for myself, the more threatened she gets. Why is that?
Thanks for sharing your story here, Dawning. I'm sure this has not been any easy time for you with the passing of your grandmother. Please continue to take care of yourself.
Perhaps the answer to your question may be attributable to 'rocking the boat,' so to speak. In my family of origin, where dysfunction abounds, those who are trying to get well or detach cause disruption. The other members of this sick but cohesive and familiar symbiosis react in a variety of ways; often not positive. I think scapegoating and blame can occur. It sounds as if your mother might be threatened and is protecting herself from your reality. Not pleasant because technically we would all like and hope for the support of our mothers; especially when facing a loss such as you have with your grandmother.
I hope you'll continue to reinforce and give yourself positive messages despite whatever negativity you may encounter.
Best,
bludie
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Dawining:
It has been my experience with narcs that when you stop reflecting the image they wish to see, the devaluation process begins......i.e. you are no good, you are messed up, you are sad.........never never about them you will notice. When you stop acknowledgement of that desired reflection ..........suddenly you are persona non grata. It is the only way they can keep their puffed up image by devaluing others. Don't believe any of it. She is indeed a 6 year old. Just pat her on the head and send her away. I also found it beneficial to set a certain amount of time on the phone, say 10 min of hearing that kind of blathering........then say no matter, even if they are in mid-sentence......"well I have to run now, places to go, things to see. I will check with you later". Just cut their water off. Worked with my mother in law every time. Sorry you had to put up with that. Set the limits and boundries of what you will and will not do. It puts you in control of your life and your situation. Patz
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Thank you Patz and Guest.
The thing I am working on now is releasing the pain of knowing that the truth doesn't matter to my mother. Its that *keeping up appearances* thing (gotta read that thread).
Both of you had some excellent things to say in those last two posts. I would like to examine it all further but, for now, just wanted to post this and say thank you for all posters' support during this time and this week and the one before. It definitely helps to *talk* and post and know there is empathy and support here. Thanks for sharing your voices and insights and for being here. (I'm sorry I can't intellectualize or think more but I am still at the ending stages of grieving the loss of my grandmother). Still feel a bit like a space-cadet. :P
Take care, everyone.
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Dawning,
I tried twice to have a "conversation" with my mom about my feelings, childhood, stuff that happened, etc. A miserable failure. My mother became furious and commanded me not to blame her for anything, that it's all my problem, I'm an adult now, she couldn't believe how ungrateful I was, etc. So I did not repeat this mistake again but instead confided in therapists and people who were not 6 years old.
Bottom line: very infantile people cannot hear what you have to say. To them it is a terrifying attack on their very life, and they will fight back with everything they have. All the ammo will be used. To them it is literally a life-or-death fight. It's them or you. They will demolish you because they think that's their only choice.
Unless this 6-year-old in an adult body seeks professional help on her own, don't bother trying to have an adult relationship with her. You can't. There is a relationship! It's just not between two adults.
{{{ Dawning }}}
bunny
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Hiya Dawning. You said about the pain of knowing that the truth doesn't matter to your mother. This might be more painful, but for me, it’s my truth that doesn’t matter to others. Your mother has her own truth (we might call it denial?) and you have your own truth, which is getting closer to reality. Her truth is creating her own kind of reality and rejecting all attempts from the outside world to tell her otherwise.
Why is your truth closer to reality? Because you share it with others, like us. And you have the fantastic capability to change your mind. Change your mind, isn’t that great? I think I’ll change my mind! Great, wonderful.
This is from elsewhere on the board and I think you’ll like it:
Hang on to your truth and build on it. Guard your truth as your life. It will protect you and give you courage!
I’m sorry Dawning, this is a sad time for you in many ways. I think about you. take care, Steph
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Dawning: for what it's worth: I think you are amazing: smart, caring and capable. You are doing a good job of identifying your pain and learning from it and choosing how you want to feel. Have you read The Dance of Anger? You might find familiar issues there. Seems that your mom is doing whatever she can to get you back into the dance or pattern she had with you....that you have stepped out of. Moms are tough to break old patterns with.
Good job seeing what's happening, and choosing something else for your life. May your memories of your Grandmother console you and keep you strong.
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Thank you everyone, again, for being so kind and candid as to offer your personal experiences and wisdom. Well, my grandmother has been dead for about three weeks now. Last Monday morning, I got a call from my mother. She began to scream at me telling me how *worried she was about me. very, very worried.* And I said, *On what basis?* I had a friend over who wanted to take a shower so I told her where the towel was and my mother wanted to know about this *friend*....male or female...and I said that is was none of her business. Then, she said, *call me if you need me* and hung up. And I looked at myself in the mirror and said, *you are you. Not her. Not her projections. You've been doing that all your life. Don't do this dance anymore.*
I am planning a trip back to the USA next month. My mother lives on the east coast but I will stay on the west coast at the same place as before where I feel centered and whole and where the energy of the place gives me the fortification and confidence to...and I quote...*take the bull by the horns and drag it to its knees.*
Anyway, tonight, I phoned a neighborhood friend who lives near my mother and he suggested that I pop in for a visit and try and stay in the same house with her but if she starts verbally attacking me, take my rental car keys and check into a hotel. (I've already had my rental car keys TAKEN by my mother several years ago and hidden and then she locked all the doors so I couldn't leave) but I've been through that so will keep the keys on me at all times.
Basically, I want to be there for her. Like OnlyMe, I am an only child of my mother and feel that she is alone and I want to help her but I will not take verbal abuse and, if that happens, I am outta there. What do you think? Should I go and visit her? I know I have to answer that question for myself but I would appreciate any advice from those who *have been there.* What my plan is...is to just appear out of the blue....so she is not expecting me. I have never done this before; never given her the opportunity to plot how she can use and take advantage of me before I even get there. But she is my mother and I care. I'll give her one week. That is my...and I quote again...."moral limit." If it gets bad, I'm checking into a hotel. Her mental well-being is not my responsibility.
Thanks always,
Dawning.
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oops! me above. :oops: :roll:
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Dawning,
It looks like projection. Your mother is telling you that she wants you to be worried about her. And I think it may have worked.
Why is a neighborhood friend getting involved. Is it this person's business?
An hour with your mother sounds like the maximum that could be tolerated. I don't see any reason to visit a person who would hide your car keys and lock all the doors. That disqualifies her from receiving visitors.
Bottom line, if I visited her it would be for an hour, I wouldn't dream of staying overnight, and if she started screaming, the visit would end immediately even if it had only lasted one minute. It's the only way she'll learn what you'll tolerate. There have to be some concrete consequences. She doesn't listen to verbals.
bunny
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Hi Dawning
Basically, I want to be there for her. Like OnlyMe, I am an only child of my mother and feel that she is alone and I want to help her
I agree with Bunny.
Okay, you might want to *think* about what you mean by wanting to be there for her.
Is this duty, obligation, guilt at play? Do you really want this? Will it make you happy?....do you expect to talk with her maybe? (could be useful)
I'm an only child too. Not my choice, not my problem. If my mother's alone, her problem. I could be alone too, does she worry? Does she actually help me? Nope.
I get worried about mine - her health, her safety, her sanity. But I don't act on that worry. Because the worry is my problem, I choose to worry. If she really needs my help - she'll ask. If she doesn't ask, heck, that's not my problem either. Sounds tough, but that's how communication works (and doesn't work). Real respect, love, knowing, understanding doesn't require all this cr*p - we just help each other because we genuinely want to, no strings attached.
So....how do you feel about this wanting to help? She may not want you there you know. She may want to 'worry about you' (project, whatever) from a distance. If you're there up close, it might blow her circuits. People are weird and our mothers are really weird. What you're proposing is 'normal' people stuff: but our families don't fit into that category. Maybe we'd like them to, maybe it would be great to do something normal and have it appreciated! :D But,...... :? take care as always, Steph/Portia
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First, thanks to you both - Portia and bunny - for helping me through this. You've been amazing sources of help for me and I admire the strength and courage you both have and your willingness to share and help and listen.
In my last email, I forgot to mention that, after that phone call, she sent me an email saying that she was not only worried about *me* but also worried about *her* and that I would do the same thing if I was a mother (I saw that as rationalization of her weird behaviour.) Then, she said to email her. I haven't.
Today, I got an email simply saying, "well, I guess I am on your sh*t list again. xxxoo. Mom." :roll:
You both raise some interesting questions. Thank you.
bunny wrote:
Why is a neighborhood friend getting involved. Is it this person's business?
The neighborhood friend is someone I met years ago. He was also at my grandmother's death bed. He has known my mother for years but, until recently, did not catch a glimpse of her attack/rage/fury/infantile behaviour. I consider him a friend of mine and another available source of info. Since I had heard from other relatives that my mother was writing letters to these relatives (apparently) stating that she was "getting drunk everynight" and another neighbor has told me of her "insatiable love of booze," I inquired to the friend on phone last night about this. He said that he has been over several times unannounced and she has not been drunk so he doesn't think it is necessarily true. He suggested I give it a shot; come back, stay and see what happens and if she starts her 6 year old tantrums and manipulative behaviour and verbal attacks to just leave (as I said before.)
Then, today, I get the email from her. Typical 6 year old stuff, eh? She wants to get a rise out of me. An emotional reaction (which I have given her before when she has been like this as the child eager to please the parent) but now I think this is not a relationship based on respect. It is a relationship that has to do with *her* and only her. What is she thinking? That if she victimizes herself, I will come to her rescue? And that she will once again have succeeded in taking advantage of me? It is not even a question as in *am I on your sh*t list?* It is her assumption craftily worded to attempt to get me to defend myself and my actions. What hurts is that I deeply don't believe that she has the ability nor the desire to question herself and her behaviour. So what I really need now, more than anything is a definite plan of action b/c I don't think she is going to change b/c she wants to.
Portia wrote:
Okay, you might want to *think* about what you mean by wanting to be there for her.
I think I want to make her happy and she has fully taken advantage of this. I have been conditioned to believe that my happiness can come from making her happy. But now I think differently. She cannot expect me to put up with her sh*t just because she is my mother. But how to communicate this to her? I think that any reaction she gets from me will satisfy her if only giving her hope that I will dance the dance again with her. And now I am dancing my own dance. And I seem to be making good friends, my confidence is growing and I feel so much better about myself than I did a year ago. I am learning about what I love, how to pursue it and how to make and maintain relationships based on mutual respect. And it feels so good. Detaching from her and my father has been hard but its bearing a little fruit.
do you expect to talk with her maybe? (could be useful)
Actually, I am afraid of talking *with* her b/c, based on previous experience, she takes what I say, twists into something about her and leaves me there with this empty feeling of being used. Only when she is in total control of me does she seem to lighten up and not feel threatened. That is no way for me to live.
I could be alone too, does she worry? Does she actually help me? Nope.
My mother seems to love to see me go through a crisis. Then, she can step in with all the answers. But they usually have to do with her needs; like she is not really listening to what I am saying. So, when I go through a crisis now, I turn to this board or my retreat-studies and I examine the ways I've been conditioned and how I've been programmed and I examine it. And all this pulls me further and further away from her and her snide little manipulative infantile emails like the one I received today. :twisted: How I wish she wasn't like that for she does have the capacity to be a warm human being. But talk about Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde!! When she feels threatened or afraid, watch out! And that was surely scary for me as a little girl. :cry: And I am standing up for myself now. I wonder sometimes if I am doing it the right way. Maybe I should be more patient with her, more loving, more understanding of her NPD, more compassionate. But she seems to really, really enjoy pushing my buttons or attempting to anyway.
I get worried about mine - her health, her safety, her sanity. But I don't act on that worry. Because the worry is my problem, I choose to worry. If she really needs my help - she'll ask. If she doesn't ask, heck, that's not my problem either. Sounds tough, but that's how communication works (and doesn't work). Real respect, love, knowing, understanding doesn't require all this cr*p - we just help each other because we genuinely want to, no strings attached.
That is very true and very well-said. I guess I feel I am at a cross-roads; that I naively (stubbornly?) believe she will *get it* and then I will have succeeded in saving her from her NPD and we can have a normal relationship. Or - the other way - accept her for who she is, forget about ever having true adult-communication and take her with a grain of salt - concentrating more fully on the relationships I have with people that are sane and honest. And working on becoming the person I want to be.
Loving this kind of crap I am getting from her is not what I want to do or feel compelled to do. So I am just ignoring her as, bunny wisely pointed out, she doesn't listen to verbals. But it is hard b/c I love her and I have convinced myself that I am all she has got. She's got no friends, no husband, all relatives have shunned her....but then, on some days, I think she is tough as old bones and what is she trying to engage me in with that little email of hers today? That email was not based on respect of any kind or it seems so to me.
Maybe it is me who still somehow wants a mommy that will never be.
So I think that I want to control her to some extent...still. I want to make her into a nice mommy that doesn't hit me or scream at me or devalue me or expect me to take on the role of the crazy person so she doesn't have to and I want her to respect me and listen to me and see me as not her reflection in the mirror. Oh, if this were possible! I have put alot of effort into making it possible I am starting to think it is not.
I can't help of thinking of Death of a Salesman. If, by pulling away from my mother to be happy and lead a sane, honest life, she kills herself??.....that is my fear. My fear is that she will kill herself to make her point...that I was only put on this planet to please her and, if I can't do that, then she will make me pay for it by having to feel guilty the rest of my life for not making her happy. But the truth is (all melodramatics aside) she is a troubled, unhappy woman and, if she takes her own life, it is not a reflection on me. I have tried all my life to make that woman happy. I have offered my love to her and have had it rejected in cruel ways. And, now the really scary part, is that I am starting to make good friends and starting to get an inkling of what I am capable of without being in her shadow. Getting that email from her today basically felt like a punch. And she didn't mention anything at all about my grandmother, her cremation, her ashes or anything a long those lines. I mean, for all she knows, I could be in the hospital for some reason and not be able to email but I guess that thought never occurred to her. :evil: Gawd forbid! As I said before, I need a plan of action b/c she is not only getting on my nerves but she is acting ridiculous. One thing I can do is protect the little girl inside of me who wants her mother's unconditional love and, instead, give it to myself and others worthy of it. Thanks for listening to me ramble.
Love,
Dawning.
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Big sighs Dawning. Can I work with you?
So I think that I want to control her to some extent...still. I want to make her into a nice mommy that doesn't hit me or scream at me or devalue me or expect me to take on the role of the crazy person so she doesn't have to and I want her to respect me and listen to me and see me as not her reflection in the mirror.
Yep, I still want her to change. I want her to stop the game. Stop the game of manipulating my attention and relate to me as a human being. At least, that’s the game I perceive. She offers me communication and insights into her, but then doesn’t fulfil the promises. She wants me to ask and ask for it, to make her feel in control? Wanted? Or – does she simply not care, becomes disinterested in what she promises me, and forgets? Do I disappear until the next time she finds that her ‘friends’ are all on holiday? I do find that when she is busy with others, I don’t figure at all. I could easily be dead. So maybe I fool myself in thinking there is a game. Maybe there isn’t. Maybe it’s as simple as a parasite needing a host – any host??
She’s pathetic, unhappy, screwed up as I see it. But does she see it like that? Is she capable of seeing it like that? The narcissistic state seems to be one of utter shame and fear, but that this fear and shame are always kept at bay by being superior to others etc. The only way the fear is fully felt is when all the defences don’t work – so as long as they get supply, they’re okay I guess. But what about us? Are we simply hosts to the parasite? I don’t know. And if not us, it’s someone else, someone who maybe won’t hurt as much as we do as ‘hosts’, so maybe our job is to protect and grow ourselves until just maybe we’re strong enough to be compassionate without guilt or obligation or any negative feelings? I don’t know, I’m asking. If so, that’s a long way off for me, I’m not that free of anger and I’m not that self-confident.
One of our problems it seems is that we have compassion mixed with our understandable need to be loved. Our mothers it seems lack that compassion but do have this insatiable need – insatiable because we can’t be their mothers holding them as babies and supplying that unconditional love. It can’t happen!
If, by pulling away from my mother to be happy and lead a sane, honest life, she kills herself??.....that is my fear. My fear is that she will kill herself to make her point...that I was only put on this planet to please her and, if I can't do that, then she will make me pay for it by having to feel guilty the rest of my life for not making her happy.
Yes I know. I have felt like this and still do, to a point. But the evidence is that people who are so out of touch with themselves in this way, don’t suicide. She’ll probably go on forever. Maybe mine will outlive me, I consider it possible! She’s the mother, I am/you are the daughter. They’re supposed, in some order in my mind, to want us to live, to carry the genes forward. They’re supposed, in some gut-instinct survival way, to protect us, not want to crush us or subsume us. If life were perfect, they wouldn’t burden us like they do. If you had a daughter wouldn’t you want her to be the happiest, most fulfilled she could be? I think not having our own children is a loss, simply because we don’t experience the protectiveness and love for them, that we didn’t have from our mothers. I think that makes a huge difference to some women (and men) – seeing their children with love and realising what is missing in their own parents. Some parents are willing to die so that their children live! Imagine that eh.
I have tried all my life to make that woman happy. I have offered my love to her and have had it rejected in cruel ways.
And it’s not your/our job Dawning! It’s not our job to do this!! This is topsy-turvy life.
And, now the really scary part, is that I am starting to make good friends and starting to get an inkling of what I am capable of without being in her shadow. Getting that email from her today basically felt like a punch.
It is scary, I find personal freedom scary. And I get regretful too, at what I’ve missed (been capable of). And yes, I felt that punch too. It’s akin to “I know when I’m not wanted” i.e. you don’t love me child!!! Pile on the guilt and kill me with it I guess. Motherhood martyrdom stinks. :evil:
If she’s acting ridiculous, let her, it’s her life. Maybe you don’t need a plan of action re: her?? Can you let go? She’s not your responsibility, whatever society or convention may dictate. And by getting you to think that you can influence her (help her, comfort her) she’s letting you think you have that power. When in fact, she’s exercising power of control over you by appearing weak and out of control. Now that could take me from sad to angry in milliseconds! :roll:
Thanks for getting me thinking D. Listening to you really does help….P
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Today, I got an email simply saying, "well, I guess I am on your sh*t list again. xxxoo. Mom." :roll:
Manipulation, she is also acting like a teenager.
He said that he has been over several times unannounced and she has not been drunk so he doesn't think it is necessarily true. He suggested I give it a shot; come back, stay and see what happens and if she starts her 6 year old tantrums and manipulative behaviour and verbal attacks to just leave (as I said before.)
Give a shot to visiting her because she isn't drinking? I'm a little mixed up here.
That if she victimizes herself, I will come to her rescue? And that she will once again have succeeded in taking advantage of me? It is not even a question as in *am I on your sh*t list?* It is her assumption craftily worded to attempt to get me to defend myself and my actions. What hurts is that I deeply don't believe that she has the ability nor the desire to question herself and her behaviour. So what I really need now, more than anything is a definite plan of action b/c I don't think she is going to change b/c she wants to.
I agree with the plan of action idea.
I think I want to make her happy and she has fully taken advantage of this. I have been conditioned to believe that my happiness can come from making her happy. But now I think differently. She cannot expect me to put up with her sh*t just because she is my mother. But how to communicate this to her?
Through action. Words aren't going to cut it. She doesn't listen. You've taken one major action, i.e., moving to the other side of the globe. I think that sent a message. If you communicate through email, I would only send short emails that are extremely simple and firm.
I wonder sometimes if I am doing it the right way. Maybe I should be more patient with her, more loving, more understanding of her NPD, more compassionate. But she seems to really, really enjoy pushing my buttons or attempting to anyway.
If anything, I would be very firm. She needs boundaries because she doesn't have any. If she's faced with some boundaries she may revise some of her worst behaviors. But she has to see the consequences of not respecting the boundaries, and she has to know that your boundaries are being enforced.
She's got no friends, no husband, all relatives have shunned her....but then, on some days, I think she is tough as old bones and what is she trying to engage me in with that little email of hers today? That email was not based on respect of any kind or it seems so to me.
She is probably pretty tough as she hasn't caved in to the pressure of having no friends or relatives. I suppose she's finding supplies though.
Maybe it is me who still somehow wants a mommy that will never be.
Why wouldn't you. It's what everyone wants...
I don't think your mother will commit suicide but she may create some drama (like telling everyone she is drinking) to get your attention and divert you.
bunny