Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Anonymous on January 18, 2005, 03:52:31 PM
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Hello everyone! I am new here. If I would tell my story that would be very long.
So I try to keep it short and even that is long: My mother is N and verbal abused me all my life. I have stopped contact since a year. My father has Ntraits, was a former co-dependent, but is more and more becoming an N since he retired and therefore has to be togehter with Nmom the whole day. I am on my way of moving to another country, I do live currently in Germany. Because I live in a flat of my father, I have to be still in contact with him. I would like to limited it to very very limited. After I came back to Germany after being studied in the US seven year ago, my mother really got mean on me. Very very abusive. I drove me so nuts. It is unbelievable what she said to me. I crashed dishes and windows. I felt to angry, how anyone could do this to me on purpose and even had pleasure to do so. Then I worked on having that stopped. I have not known about Ns during this time. That is about six years ago. Since then I am planning my departure. Unfortunately, I became sick for some time and I had none else to support me than my father. Then I got pregnant, and I had to work a little slower on the departure. Now I am having a job in another country, saved some money and will leave the country soon with my 2 year old son. My bfriend already left and is searching for a bigger flat in the new country. For me to leave my Nparents was not that easy. And Germany is a very unhelpful country, so practial my bfriend and I had to do everything by our own. Mostly, everyone I told here from the problems, just said, oh yes, many have crazy parents. That's is. They do not look deeper. None helped. Not the goverment, in Germany they do not have daytime kindergarten for toddlers under 3 only private which is very expensive and rare. And for over 3 years it is mostly just in the morning. At least I managed to give my son in a private kindergarten, three times per week. So called friends were not much helpful either. None even offered once to take care of my son. Or girlfriends from school just wanted me to come during the day in their wonderful house when they were bored. My bfriend found a job in another city, rented a small room there and was only here every second weekend. Even the neighbours here are jealous and not nice. I am so very glad when I can leave this place here finally.
Lately, my father who is a pathological liar and who like typical N justifies his lies always, lied so much I lost it and screamed at him and hit him on the arm. It is true these N people want to make you act in this way that they then can say, see, I told you, you are a bad person. I recognized that I have to limited contact further as much as possible during I am still here. And I futher recognized that I have to stop waste value life time to get upset about him. I searched the internet, found this page and another webpage which someone posted here to copy with Ns.
Getting to the point, is anyone here familar with the Betty Broderick case? It is a true case, where a husband divorced his wife of twenty years married a new wife (twenty years younger). He became rich after his first wife helped him to get though law and medical school during the divorce it is said he cheated her with money and because he was the president of the bar and had a lot of contacts, the court held against his exwife. He also must have abused his first wife. In the end, the ex-wife could not take the abuse anymore and became very crazy, calling the phone, leaving mean messages and insults on the answering machine and then she went to her former house and shot her exhusband and his new wife death. They made a TV-Movie and there are at least three books outside about that case. Just tape Betty Broderick into google and you will find info, if you interested. In the Betty Broderick Case, it is likely that the exhusband drove her so nuts with all his bad behaviour that she did not find the point where she could stop that anymore and in the end she killed him. It is even claimed, that she did not do it on purpose, she just went to the house and wanted to talk to them to stop their behaviour. I can imagine the scene like the was upset, they lied again into her face and then she lost it and shot them. Very scary, to loose it and to shot them. I think she must have felt very lonely and helpless. That is what I have felt sometimes too.
What I would like to discuss is the following:
1. Did anyone here got so angry on N's that they started to act violent? Where you scared of yourself? What did you do?
For me knowing how N's are, that has helped me enormous. Getting a goal to get out of the situtation. Limiting contact. Reading how to cope with Ns. Threating with attornies and cops is for my father a helper. Not to tell him anything of myself anymore, of my life, my friends, my wishes.I think, I read somewhere that if we wish to kill people or if we are too angry, we should remove ourselves from the scence. Not always that easy if you have to deal with them and you do not want to spent all your money on attorney fees. I think these Ns are want to make you angry on purpose, well in the case of my father he has to justify himselves with lieing and he always thinks that he is justified to lie. It is very angrymaking. Very hard to deal on a reasonable basis with these people because they are just unreasonable.
2. What do you think is the bottom line to get out of the circle of Ns?
Like in Betty's case the best would have been to get over it and start a life of her own anew. And to forget about the money cheating. Getting a better attorney. Not to get too much involved into her ExNhusband anymore.
I would be happy for many responses.
Samantha
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Guest,
Today I got a call from my daughter's Jr. High, to come down to the nurses, because while in the Gym another girl hit my daughter in the chest and mouth and one tooth was loose.
The story I got was durning a vollyball game my daughter made a remark about another girls play on the ball. The girl that hit her had heard the remark made last week and today decided to push it to the physical level. (there are other things that happen like other girls wanting to see a fight)
We are waiting for the Police now to come by so I can make a report to press charges.
I think when you see kids that use physical violence, it can start very early and only escalates as their standard way of resolving what ever it is.
Betty Brodrick,an Intresting note, I happen to know the brother of the boyfriend of the Oldest Daughter.
We worked together for 8 years and I remember him comming into work telling us all about how is brothers girlfriend's, mother had killed her father. He was going to be a witness and is seen in the movie as the boyfriend in the Jeep.
I think the movie made it appear like the Mom, was not going to let her husband move on. This was so long ago I'm sure back then the understanding we have now was alot different.
I could believe now that the husband may have appeared as a nice guy and had all the N behaviors.
People that can get under your skin where you can't contol the need to be physical, you will either need to step back, walk away, or not be around them at all.
You may have been in a tough situation, found you had rage and one time not able to control it. That can happen. sometimes I feel like throwing a dish or two or slaming a door.
However Betty, who may have had other disorders, allowing herself to get Obsessed.
Maybe it's just hormones. at 13teen, at 50 maybe it's a chemical inbalance. It may be worth looking into something to keep yourself calm before you lose control.
I don't know if any of this helps you. I just find myself dealing with a physical attack on my daughter for the first time and found the mention of the Bodricks on a personal note.
onlyrenting
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You always need to take responsibility for your own behavior.
If you indeed feel you are losing control to the point of harming someone then you need to remove yourself from the situation or seek professional help.
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Only renting, thank you for your response. Interesting, that you have a kind of personal touch to that case.
I think the movie made it appear like the Mom, was not going to let her husband move on. This was so long ago I'm sure back then the understanding we have now was alot different. I could believe now that the husband may have appeared as a nice guy and had all the N behaviors
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Yes, I agree. That is what I am thinking either. I saw the movie about 15 year or so ago, can that be? What I think is strange, why Betty did not do anything to stop that. Maybe she had none to help. Maybe hormones played a role, maybe. But I think there must have been. Hormones also often go out of control if being very stressed as a consequense.
People that can get under your skin where you can't contol the need to be physical, you will either need to step back, walk away, or not be around them at all. You may have been in a tough situation, found you had rage and one time not able to control it. That can happen. sometimes I feel like throwing a dish or two or slaming a door.
That is me too. But that I DO NOT DO IT. I just feel like it like you. I think it is very scary that you can not control it. Usually that happens only, if the person has tortured you a lot, like the the example with the dog, it gotten beaten that often that it suddenly bite. I think that is what happened with the girl, who hit your daughter. It was not the remark your daughter made, there were many remarks before and then, she just have gotten it and lost it and unfortunately, it was your daughter. I guess that girl who beat up your daughter needs desperately professional help. I am also very sorry for your daughter. The school should speak about that. Why did these things?
Maybe, I do need either. At the moment, I have so many things to do, I just have no time for that. Meanwhile I am reading in some self help books. Usually, I do not loose it. The lies in my face, the continueing of denying what was so clear, the not finally taking responsiblity for the behaviour whereas instead blaming other like me that was just too much. I could not take it anymore.
I found also out that it happens because of the constant repeater. My father did it and did it and I finally lost it, because I was UNAWARE what that did to me. Now, I now that this lieing is too much for me, I know that these Npeople are doing it, I know why they are doing it and I know they can not do in any other way (which of course is now excuse). After reading so much about N, I know exactly what my father will say and if he really did something wrong it takes hours and days until he will admit it. My body, my brain just could not take it anymore. It was filled up like a glass with water and pour more water into the glass made the glass to let run the water out. That was happen with me. If nocticed that getting that angry on a person, one immediately has to remove yourself. You have to get that in your brain, you are very very angry on that person. The person cheated and lied to you. Do not see that person in person, if the person continues to deny it. Try to talk that over the phone and if they continue if you do not can take, you can at least, say, I have to close and end the conversation. Get into your mind that there is nothing that the person will do to excuse or apologize. Note that the person will still feels justifed to do so. And will do again in any case.
In the other case, if a person continues to stalk you or is blaming your for something you did not do and is raging on you, you have to remove yourself from that scene immediately. As long the person has rage and harming feelings against you, try to avoid that person. If not possible get an restaining order. You may can talk to person on the phone as soon as it rages, close the conversation. Do not answer emails or phone conversation. If that all is getting to much hire an attorney or go to the courts or the police.
It is very hard to be together with people where you know they can always cheat on you or lie to you and you still have to deal with them. It is very energy consuming and very tired making.
The only way, I found out is have as less contact as possible and finally try to find a way to remove yourself from that scene finally. There is no other way. Sometimes with a divorce or with parents it is a hard bite of work to do. More easy with friends or even with husbands than with parents. I feel know that it is neccessary for my own health to remove myself from that scene as soon as possible. Which is not that easy with a kid and limited financial ressources. Samantha
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I believe I saw a documentary on the Brodrick case on A & E some time back. I think her ex shacked up with someone younger and moved in with her, divorced Betty. The up shot of it all is that Betty lost everything, the house, the money, the social postion.....everything. She went over to the house to discuss something and found them both together in the house she had lived in for 20 some odd years. Yeah, I do believe it would push me over the brink......given the right circumstances.
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Dear guest, thanks for the response.
Yes that is, what I would like to discuss, when we have to get out of this before we later do regret or something dangerous happens?
I do believe now that N's try to push our buttons and one has to be very careful not to get into that trap. Because then, you are the one who lost it officially like Betty. You are the one, who destroyed things (like Betty did with her exhusband expensive sweaters or with the car) or calling insults (like she did on the answering machnine) or you are the one who hit a person (I think Betty did that either, started to hit her exhusband). And then the Ns even have proof that we are crazy and have personal flaws or we are the criminals. I do think that the Betty Broderick case is an extreme one, but I think it is a sad example what happens if we not help ourselves soon enough or seek for help, if we deal with N's. Things can get easily very wacky.
I think, if we have to continue to deal with N's the best is to get professional help like mediators, therapists or attorneys or maybe social work helpers. In my case I should have looked since years for professional help how to get on with my parents. Unfortunately, I did not and unfortunately, it is not that easy to find a good therapist to help you. Especially in my country. As already stated many are claiming they have crazy parents, but I know none who got professional help to get out that permanent quarrels and conflicts. All I know here in Germany are keeping on with the neverending story with their parents until they die. Very sad.
Samantha
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HI Samatha,
Just an intresting note on the outcome of the physical attack on my 12yr old. They arrested the 13yr old girl, the fine is 300.00 with anger management and community service.
The girl that attacked her, gave her little friend a note saying
"this was not over".
Today the principal said that girl, got a citation and the whole matter has now been set to the level where the girl would not be allowed to come back to the school.
(I'm sure this 13teen yr old has had this happen more than once). The Principal, said I would have a chance to meet with the mom, the girl and talk about all of this.
Physical violence to my surprize, at any age, is not being tolerated and they hit you in your wallet.
I understand your feeling of how an N can accuse you of bazar things
I think Betty did that either, started to hit her exhusband). And then the Ns even have proof that we are crazy and have personal flaws or we are the criminals.
This week I was going thru some old letters and I found one,
of 4 or 5, I have saved as proof to myself, of things my N-H has said to me.
This one was a comment that
He thinks I was going crazy and my reaction to him was concerning. This letter was from a long time ago, before I knew what an N was. I'm sure I did have a reaction of disbelief, for the N can do unbelivable things.
We know how the N can make everything your fault with no blame to them. This is why I will not consider therapy with him, for myself yes.
I have reasons for saving things that are said or in writing just incase I need something to prove I'm not the crazy one.
I don't have to live with my N mother, but like being married to an N needing a place because of money can make getting away difficult.
My thoughts are with you and yours. Onlyrenting
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I think it is good to get a personal talk with her and with her mother than you know what is going on. I would prepare for that talk and maybe bring an attorney with me. The attorney should maybe threaten the girl that if she ever is doing something your daughter again then she will have a trial and have to pay big bucks. Or speak with an attorney on that mesure. It is always good to get professional help. Please continue to tell how the story is going on. I wish you luck and I keep my fingers cross.
The little brat which beat up your daughter looks like a nasty naughty girl. It is good to do something ASAP until things get more ugly.
There is a very interesting discussion on the yahoo group Adult children of Nacrists right now, the tread is called how N's work. You might want to take a look at it.
So back on topic. Why we are doing things, or why we letting us threating so bad that we do bad things either? Okay, ours is a reaction.
I think that we did not removed ourselves soon enough from that scene. In the Betty Broderick Case, I think the marriage was not happy since some time ago. Okay, having four kids is tough, but they had money they could have hired some stuff.Being with bad people there are always signs, signs, and signs.I know since over 20 years that my parents are rotten. I should have make the break long time ago. But I always think that today, so much easier. We have the internet to get all the information, we need. There are more and more people recognizeing about abuse. We have more groups like this on the internet.
I a little disappointed that not more members or guest got involved in that topic. So the question again, when did the N succeed and you made something do or react in a way you usually do not ? That you kind of lost it.
I think either that, what I need to know and what I think comes too short often, is the subject that after WE KNOW these people are N's, after we know we have to remove ourselves from then it is not always that easy. being with Nparents or with an Nhusband can be difficult to cope and one can not run out the next day. Things need careful planning. Somebody knows a book about that?
Samantha
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Hello Samantha,
Sorry I don't know about such a book. Just a few thoughts though.
Since you are sort of stuck, living with your father, who you have told us lies pathologically etc, you will have to find a way to NOT LET HIM ANGER YOU, in order to avoid doing something you will regret, right?
The trick is NOT TO LET HIM ANGER YOU. Sounds easy? Ofcourse not but it is very important. What if you were to picture your father with a clown face and a hear a real high squeaky voice whenever he opens his mouth?
Or what if you just ignor what he says, as if there is something wrong with his speakers or your earphones? What if you recite your favorite poem or a song or something you like, in your mind, silently, whenever your father starts up?
The bottom line is you don't HAVE to let him push your buttons. You can decide to put up an invisible wall that will not allow his foolishness in.
What do you think?
I have had to deal with a similar circumstance and found myself feeling the same as some of what you describe. I chose to act. I chose to act for my own benefit and so that I would be happy about the way I acted.
First, I made the decision about how I was going to act. What if you make a plan to help yourself tolerate, ignor, etc your father's behaviour? Also, is your son watching? If so, what is he learning?
Hope this helps.
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Hello Guest,
thanks for your response.
Since you are sort of stuck, living with your father, who you have told us lies pathologically etc, you will have to find a way to NOT LET HIM ANGER YOU, in order to avoid doing something you will regret, right?
Yes, that is the trick. Step by Step, I am dealing better with this situation. It is not easy and mostly I am angry on myself. Why the hell did I not much earlier have chosen to leave this situation? Then I am getting angry on this contury where are no loan für school and university tutions from schools or banks, where they do not do anything for you. Then I am getting angry on myself, why the hell I did not leave the country year before and even worse when I left some years ago, why did I make the mistake of coming back? Now I know. I would never go back again. Then why the hell all the f..... people told me yeaj, these are your parents, we have crazy parents too, that is the way it is, you can not do anything against it. Of course I can not change my parent and of course I can not get others like getting a new friend or husband, but I could have remove myself long long ago from that situation here, when I did not had a kid and things were a little more easier and I was younger. That makes me angry too. So my anger is not anymore on him, because he will never see what it is, he will never see his flaws and his denial. Will never admit it. The anger is on me and the anger is on the goverment and the anger is on all the people who had seen but chosen to keep up their mouth. That is the anger. That did not made my situation easier.
That is why I can understand Betty in some way: People saw, but did not help. The court was influenced by Dan. Then she got so angry that she lost it on the person who originated all her pain. Her exhusband.
But it was not the Exhusband, alone. It was society and the system which made is possible. People who of course have chosen to stay in touch with the ex because he was the one with the influence. More sozial help even if you have money. A good friend who is giving you a good advice.If that is missing than you are stuck.
The trick is NOT TO LET HIM ANGER YOU. Sounds easy? Ofcourse not but it is very important. What if you were to picture your father with a clown face and a hear a real high squeaky voice whenever he opens his mouth?
That would not do it.
Or what if you just ignor what he says, as if there is something wrong with his speakers or your earphones? What if you recite your favorite poem or a song or something you like, in your mind, silently, whenever your father starts up?
That is what I do a lot.
The bottom line is you don't HAVE to let him push your buttons. You can decide to put up an invisible wall that will not allow his foolishness in.
What do you think?
Yes that is what it is. You have to do it. Thank you for pointing it out.
I have had to deal with a similar circumstance and found myself feeling the same as some of what you describe. I chose to act. I chose to act for my own benefit and so that I would be happy about the way I acted.
First, I made the decision about how I was going to act. What if you make a plan to help yourself tolerate, ignor, etc your father's behaviour? Also, is your son watching? If so, what is he learning?
I will make a plan, I already ordered some books and I agree sometimes my son has watched and that is not good. It is time to leave here for good, but not that easy if you start out again. Thank again, Samantha
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Hello again Samantha:
You're really letting it out! That's a good thing. And it isn't hurting anybody either. Another good thing. That's what Betty needed to do, instead of what she chose to do.
Personally, I think we are all capable of rage and other unacceptable behaviours. We don't like to think of ourselves as being capable of such things but let's face it, people can snap, given the correct circumstances. None of us knows until we face such a situation. I think that is what you are trying to say, right? You understand what made Betty snap?
For me, I want to do whatever it takes to prevent me from ever doing what Betty did because I really believe that what she did was wrong. That's my opinion. It is wrong to exact revenge, it is wrong to be violent, it is wrong to hurt and it costs us the most, in the end.
I know that feeling that life is just so unfair and I know what it's like feeling frustrated and angry with myself for some of the choices I've made. I also have experienced the same kind of anger about other people who could have helped and who didn't. I know the line that can come into sight when someone pushes me and pushes me and I feel soooooo angry that I want to crush the pusher. I also know that that is the time I need to do something else to release my anger because I do not want to cross that line.
Maybe we just have to really feel it and express it to get rid of it? For me, excercise, writing, music, talking with others, distracting myself with say..hobbies... posting here helps. Mostly, it's being aware that it's time to release that feeling, if it's anger or something else that's building up, is the thing I've learned to try hard to be aware of, over the years. I feel a lot better when I do that.
Nobody said life is fair. It would be nice if it was, but it isn't and it is unrealistic to expect it to be fair. What helps me most is to count my blessings. If I try really hard to remember the good things that I do have in my life, and focus on those and on improving the things that I dont' like, it doesn't seem as hopeless as it does when I only notice what's wrong and hard and not right and upsetting.
So maybe you need to forgive yourself? You're not perfect are you? Are you supposed to do everything right? Are you the only person on earth who has made poor choices sometimes and lived to regret them? I know you're not because I've made some too and I'm still here.
I think it's good that you are thinking of a plan. It won't be easy but it will be worth it to move out and onward. Think of your son. Think of what you want to teach him. Focus on doing your best for him and let your father's words fade into oblivion, away from your world and your plan. You will make your life better, Samantha, just keep trying.
Big Hug for you.
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Dear guest,
Thanks again for your response and your support. I feel this thread is important maybe for others to. I found a good information on www.spaces.msm.com/members/narcissist and on the Sam Vaskin pages how to cope with Ns. I printed a lot of it. Actually he has very good ideas, how to cope with abusers and narcissits.
Something Betty should definitely had!!! When I feel angry again about my abuser father I call a friend or I take a look at all the many webpages from Vaskin and I get ideas how to cope with my father. That gives me actually the feeling that I can do something and not have to let me abuse any longer. I also take from time to time an empty water bottle and just beat it against a wall or on the table. That helps to get rid of some aggression.
That's what Betty needed to do, instead of what she chose to do.
Yes, of course. Unfortunately, there was no internet maybe she would have found more easily some books, or self-help groups like this or these wonderful webpages like to cope with these kind of people. That does help, at least we do not feel alone anymore.
Personally, I think we are all capable of rage and other unacceptable behaviours. We don't like to think of ourselves as being capable of such things but let's face it, people can snap, given the correct circumstances. None of us knows until we face such a situation.
Yes, that is so true. That is why I made this tread. I think it is very important that we all know that. We do not want to face that, but exactly as you said, given the correct circumstances, well we do not know what we all gonna do.
I think that is what you are trying to say, right? You understand what made Betty snap?
Yes, I think that this is very understandable. Of course she was guilty, but I think her sentence is much too long. She might had the wrong attorneys. If I would be here lawyer and by the way, I studied law, I would have focus more on the matter how abused she was and in what kind of mental state she got. Pointing out how people would feel when they get abused like that. That would have been made an impression on the jury. Unfortunately, I do not know what her lawyers did. I have ordered two books about the case.
For me, I want to do whatever it takes to prevent me from ever doing what Betty did because I really believe that what she did was wrong. That's my opinion. It is wrong to exact revenge, it is wrong to be violent, it is wrong to hurt and it costs us the most, in the end.
The thing is we have laws which do not allow to kill or even injure other people. Only if there is a justification. But that has to be proved. And there is no criminal law for abusers and N's. Which I think is bad. In Germany we do not even have a criminal law for stalking. They know what it is, but that lame goverment did nothing to get a law for that. To often untit someone is getting hurt nothing is done. I think there should been laws against abuse. More detailed and especially for children. There should be more done for children anyhow. The goverments can spent money for every shit, but I think they should spent more for children. I like the attitude of goverments like France, Belgian and the Skandinavian countries. They do so much for children.
Moreover, I think it is stupid to be in prison and especially for such a long time. I do not can really say, it was wrong what she did and I think that she was in such a state that she did not really know what she did. She definitive needed pyschological help at that point of her life.
I like revenge. But a different kind of revenge. Successful revenage. Like that Betty would have studied law by herself, got successful much more successful than her husband. Made a group for women like her. Get a lot of support of her community. Maybe the young new wife of her ex would have cheated on him later. Maybe Betty would have found another nice man. That is a kind of revenage I like. I do not like to kill people. Even when I strongly believe that for many N's there is no place on this planet, just to blow them away is too soft for all the awful behaviour they did to other people. Let them suffer and not only 5 minutes die. That just sounds to simply.
Or for example I like the idea, when I later make a lot of money as a lawyer to buy the house next to my parents and give it to a group for single women with kids who left alone. They can all live for free in that house until the kid is two or three years old. By them they should have found a flat by themselves. Boy that would make a noise, where my father just loves to have his peace. It would drive him nuts. But well, the community would be happy, because they would not have to pay rental money for these ladies and the ladies would be happy that they found a place to live. Can you imagine living next to a house all with babies whom are screaming the whole day and night? Happy retirement. That is what I call a revenge. Doing something good and giving the N a bad time. That is something Betty should have done. I read in one book that she received 18.000 Dollar support money per month. From that money she easily could have gone to law school or to college. Okay, it would have taken some time, I do not know if she had finished college. But she could focus meanwhile on other things and her kid could have been proud of her.
I also have experienced the same kind of anger about other people who could have helped and who didn't. I know the line that can come into sight when someone pushes me and pushes me and I feel soooooo angry that I want to crush the pusher. I also know that that is the time I need to do something else to release my anger because I do not want to cross that line.
That is what it is.
Mostly, it's being aware that it's time to release that feeling, if it's anger or something else that's building up, is the thing I've learned to try hard to be aware of, over the years. I feel a lot better when I do that.
Yes, I agree. We just have to do that. We have to be aware.
So maybe you need to forgive yourself? You're not perfect are you? Are you supposed to do everything right? Are you the only person on earth who has made poor choices sometimes and lived to regret them? I know you're not because I've made some too and I'm still here
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When you wrote that, I thought you hit a point. Yes, that it is. Living with parents who always saying that I am doing wrong and wrong and never ever said in my life that they are proud of me or that I did right, that made me that way. Yes, I have to forgive myself for making the wrong decsions. I am human, I am making mistakes and I am allowed to make mistakes. Yes, that is what it is. Boy, every day I say, I will be so relieved if I finally have that pig of my father out of my life. He is none, I would voluntary choose to spent time with.
Samantha, just keep trying. Big Hug for you.
Yes that is something I will do. I think I am improving. Now that I now since three months about the N and I found these groups here, yes I think I am improving. To concretrate more on solution to get out of that here, is more important than to be sorry for myself. A big hug for you too. Samantha
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Hi again Samantha,
The link doesn't work (that's ok because I'm not sure how many Sam fans you'll find here?? I don't think he has a real following on this board.) I don't really know much about him except that he is a self-proclaimed N, which makes me want to run in the other direction. However, maybe he does have good ideas about how to deal with N's, being one himself, and seeing things from his own point of view.
You were describing what you do when you feel angry, in order to cope. I haven't heard of the plastic bottle thing but that sounds like a good one. I went out recently and bought a set of small bongo drums for fun and frustration relief. Lot's of times I'm pounding away, just for fun, but I gotta tell ya when frustration hits me, those bongos are great! Worth every penny.
That's what Betty needed to do, instead of what she chose to do
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Yes, of course. Unfortunately, there was no internet maybe she would have found more easily some books, or self-help groups like this or these wonderful webpages like to cope with these kind of people. That does help, at least we do not feel alone anymore.
I think Betty definately needed to do something. There must have been some source to help her but she would have had to have been in a sane state of mind in order to decide to find it. Where ever that sane state ends and the lack of it begins, is the key, imo, to preventing horrendous crime. To imagine what it must be like to-- not-- be able to recognize that we are approaching such a dangerous point --is a scary thought, isn't it?
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Personally, I think we are all capable of rage and other unacceptable behaviours. We don't like to think of ourselves as being capable of such things but let's face it, people can snap, given the correct circumstances. None of us knows until we face such a situation.
Yes, that is so true. That is why I made this tread. I think it is very important that we all know that. We do not want to face that, but exactly as you said, given the correct circumstances, well we do not know what we all gonna do.
The best we can do is set ourselves up with good support systems, learn positive ways to cope with difficulties, and realize that we have the above potential-- so that we might seek help if things ever get to such a point, maybe? Before the big snap.
I will be interested to hear your opinion after you read the books you ordered. I also wonder what her lawyers did etc and as you say, it is an interesting case. So are you a lawyer, then? I am not but I have always been interested in law. I had a fantastic law teacher in high school who really got me hooked on the subject. I love to watch the law shows on TV.
It sounds like there are differences in the laws in your country and mine, that yours is a bit behind (eg. no stalking law ...yet. maybe there will be one in the future?? But as you say...it seems they wait until someone gets hurt before passing these laws). Hey maybe you will move to one of the countries that you say you like their laws! Maybe some day!!
Moreover, I think it is stupid to be in prison and especially for such a long time.
I agree. I think many who commit such crimes should be receiving treatment instead of just punishment. For the family of murder victims, that may not sound fair but to actually prevent more crime, I think it might be the answer. Who knows? Seems to me what is being done isn't working real well.
As you say, had Betty gone ahead and become more successful than her husband etc, well, that would have been a kind of sweet revenge. To do so, just to spite him though, might have made her into a rather bitter person, but if she did so because she really liked her profession and was just enjoying her life to the fullest, yes, that kind of revenge I like too. I would never have called it revenge before though. I have just referred to that as moving on, getting on with life, etc. That is the kind of revenge I guess would be good for you too, Samantha. In regards to your father, move on, find happiness in your own life, enjoy living and leave him to his own choices. What do you think?
Buying the house next to your parents (in your revenge dream) and filling it with screaming children??? Well, that does sound a bit bitter and I don't know if that would be good for you. Besides, think of the poor little kids and their moms having to live next door to such a nasty neighbour who would be doing whatever he could to make their lives miserable (so they would move away). I say...dream about all those successes and buying the house in a beautiful scenic spot, where the children can really enjoy their surroundings and the mothers will feel comfortable and safe. That, to me, would be the ultimate gift to them and it would give you something sooooo priceless in your heart, wouldn't it?
So maybe you need to forgive yourself? You're not perfect are you? Are you supposed to do everything right? Are you the only person on earth who has made poor choices sometimes and lived to regret them? I know you're not because I've made some too and I'm still here
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When you wrote that, I thought you hit a point. Yes, that it is. Living with parents who always saying that I am doing wrong and wrong and never ever said in my life that they are proud of me or that I did right, that made me that way. Yes, I have to forgive myself for making the wrong decsions. I am human, I am making mistakes and I am allowed to make mistakes. Yes, that is what it is.
I'm glad to hear you say this. You don't seem like such a wrong, bad person to me. You're doing the right thing by seeking support here and by speaking about what's on your mind. They may never be proud of you but you can decide to be proud of yourself. Not soo proud to boast but proud enough to recognize that you do a lot of things right too. This is good for your son to see, a mom who can make mistakes and learn from them. Also, a mom who doesn't stay angry but who does something to improve the situation. A mom who moves ahead, not backward.
yes I think I am improving. To concretrate more on solution to get out of that here, is more important than to be sorry for myself.
See? You are doing it!!! That is exactly what will do the most good for you and your son, right? Working towards that goal and doing good things for yourself and your son until you can get there! You will get there, too, I just know it!
Thanks for the hug. I appreciate it very much.
So what is the first step in your plan? Have you decided yet? First you have to..........what?
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Hello Guests and Sam: Sam I am so glad you are posting here. I remember well when I first experienced the devastation of an N how I read and reread some of Sam V's stuff, and it was helpful. It also helped to post to others to validate my feelings of rage, and the sense of how unreal it was. It is what I call "The Great Awakening". When you finally begin to realize you are not crazy, you aren't the only one, that there is information and others to sound off with.
Betty, and I really feel sorry for her, did not seek out the help she needed to stay in control and the rage of it all over took her. She was married to a narc and it did destroy her.....totally.
As regards Sam V, I quickly out grew him. You only need to look at the number of sites he has on in internet to get a quick idea that he is indeed the fount of all knowledge, omnipresent, omniscent. He sits in the vast wasteland of an admitted narc with only a distanst horizon as company. Patz (that is why I post here)
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Hi Sam, Patz, everyone,
Betty, and I really feel sorry for her, did not seek out the help she needed to stay in control and the rage of it all over took her. She was married to a narc and it did destroy her.....totally.
I like the way you put this Patz and I totally agree. So maybe the trick, for those who must reside with people who behave in N ways, is to....seek out the help needed to stay in control and to not let it destroy us?
The stay in control part.....to me means to stay in control of our OWN behaviour. To do whatever is necessary to prevent us from behaving like an N. To do what it takes to feel better and not let the rage build to the point of destruction, where that is alllllll we feel. To release our anger and other negative feelings in ways that will not hurt others and possibly even in ways that will be of benefit to us (such as excercise...which improves our health while helping us release our feelings, or by some art form...which is another way of releasing feelings, while creating something of value and beauty, etc).
Is that what you meant Patz, in regard to staying in control?
GFN
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Hi everybody, thanks for the responses. Here is Sam Vaskins page again and that bookmark is working, I checked it again, how to copy with Ns people.
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/text6-5-2002-19792.asp
Some coping advice on that page gives oneself really some ideas.
I agree with Patz that Sam Vaskin seems to be everywhere and plops up everywhere. But it is hard to find on the web, pages which deal with how to copy with Ns. That is why I ordered that Book from W. Eddy about highly conflict people and other books, how to deal with nasty and toxic people. The most pages are over Npeople and not how to deal with them, which I find strange because mostly we discover the Nterminology if we have to deal with a Nperson and that it is often a spouse, a parents or a boss. Often we are financially depend on them or we are trapped somehow else that we not always after we have discoverd that we have to deal with an Nperson, we just can go, pack our stuff and go. And even to do that we will have to make a plan to leave the Nperson and MEANWHILE we still have to deal with them. So we need [b]Coping advice[/b].
With an Nperson, one can not confront them, they deny everything and one can not come with logical behaviour. It is really hard to deal with them.
The advice to limit contact or to cut the cord for good is great, but how do we get there? Without injuries, major insults and so on. And do not forget that most people, who have lived long time with Ns need to build up their self esteem before they can rearchieve power and then finally leave the N. Easier said than done. Samantha
I will write about the books and the recommendation there give to copy with Npeople and I will also continue to write what I found out what works and what not.
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Dear Guest, dear Patz, dear GFN, dear all
The link doesn't work (that's ok because I'm not sure how many Sam fans you'll find here?
I posted it again on the post before. As already said even that he plopps up everywhere and that he is a self-proclaimed N, I am the opinion that some of this coping is working. To force an N, to pressure an N especially from offical side is something which really seems to work a lot. Sometimes it also helps to lure an N. With my father, I found out that a mixure of all the measures seem to make it a little easier to deal with him, if you have to deal with him.
Lot's of times I'm pounding away, just for fun, but I gotta tell ya when frustration hits me, those bongos are great! Worth every penny.
That is great. And music sometimes also helps to balance me. But bongos are also a great idea.
Where ever that sane state ends and the lack of it begins, is the key, imo, to preventing horrendous crime. To imagine what it must be like to-- not-- be able to recognize that we are approaching such a dangerous point --is a scary thought, isn't it?
I agree. That is, why we should carefully watch our spouse, neighour, friend and so on. Well, in a country like in Germany were so many people are Ns, none is really interested in what the other one is doing so there can be a lot of crimes easily. In Betty's case none was interessted. At least the court should have ordered her therapy and help after she did cut her husband sweaters and other clothes. The law should be change that they ask people why they did it and gives some psychological help to make the people see that even if one is full of anger and range on a cheating husband, it is not appropiate to cut his sweaters.
The best we can do is set ourselves up with good support systems, learn positive ways to cope with difficulties, and realize that we have the above potential-- so that we might seek help if things ever get to such a point, maybe? Before the big snap.
I agree. Try to move to an area where people are helpful or try to get good friends in the place where you live. If not possible, MOVE and do not stay.
I will be interested to hear your opinion after you read the books you ordered. I also wonder what her lawyers did etc and as you say, it is an interesting case. So are you a lawyer, then? I am not but I have always been interested in law. I had a fantastic law teacher in high school who really got me hooked on the subject. I love to watch the law shows on TV.
Yes, me too. I think it will be maybe found out from the books what made her snap maybe. To read it will maybe also help to work on that red button in my brain. Maybe it helps to see sooner when someone is going to press it and then to remove oneself sooner from the scene. I am moving soon to another country. And I will move one day back into the US. I will not stay in Germany. They are a very bit behind.
I think many who commit such crimes should be receiving treatment instead of just punishment. For the family of murder victims, that may not sound fair but to actually prevent more crime, I think it might be the answer. Who knows? Seems to me what is being done isn't working real well.
I agree. But also I think there should be more done to prevent it. More self-help groups, more help if someone is really down and so on. In the US and other countries they have help for this in Germany not much. The court should work more togehter with therapist and psycholgist and consulters. I worked in a court. Often they just, pleady guilty and that's it. I think it is not that easy. Some people have to get back into society and for that they need help. And there should be more help for people who are in a desperate situation. Would be much better to help the people before then to put them in prison later. With Betty, it was maybe coming clear the way the more and more range she had. The husband seemed to have behaved like a pig. But he was N.
In regards to your father, move on, find happiness in your own life, enjoy living and leave him to his own choices. What do you think?
Yes, I agree. Let him live his own and life and he should let me live mine. And he can be leaved with his own choice, like my horrible Nmom and all here wrongful, irrational decsions. It will not be my business anymore then, because I am not in that anymore.
Buying the house next to your parents (in your revenge dream) and filling it with screaming children??? Well, that does sound a bit bitter and I don't know if that would be good for you. Besides, think of the poor little kids and their moms having to live next door to such a nasty neighbour who would be doing whatever he could to make their lives miserable (so they would move away). I say...dream about all those successes and buying the house in a beautiful scenic spot, where the children can really enjoy their surroundings and the mothers will feel comfortable and safe. That, to me, would be the ultimate gift to them and it would give you something sooooo priceless in your heart, wouldn't it?
I agree again, thank you, you have very good suggestions.
I'm glad to hear you say this. You don't seem like such a wrong, bad person to me. You're doing the right thing by seeking support here and by speaking about what's on your mind. They may never be proud of you but you can decide to be proud of yourself. Not soo proud to boast but proud enough to recognize that you do a lot of things right too. This is good for your son to see, a mom who can make mistakes and learn from them. Also, a mom who doesn't stay angry but who does something to improve the situation. A mom who moves ahead, not backward.
Thank you again. You really made the points clear to me. Yes, I agree, get out her, move on. And I did learn from my mistakes.
You will get there, too, I just know it! Thanks for the hug. I appreciate it very much.
Thank you so much for all your kind and supportive words.
So what is the first step in your plan? Have you decided yet? First you have to..........what?
I have to get preapared. Organized. I made a list with all that stuff to do. My health has to get better. I had one cold after the other. Immediately, I notice something, I go to bed, get warm and stay there. And take some natural medication. In March, I am moving to my boyfriend and start with the new job. I have to take a loan here. I convinced my father to help with the bank to give me and bfriend the loan. Not so nice to work on an N, to help you. Finally, he agreed. Now it is up to the bank. In the new country bfriend and I will look for a bigger flat (There we have a studio for two). Then getting the loan, buying furniture. Coming getting the son to the new country, where he has a daytimekindergarden. Getting a part-time job in the new country and learn for the bar in that country. Passing it. Bfriend will do the same. Then getting a good paid job and paying the money back to the bank. Getting the last stuff from Germany. Then being free. Then I made it. I guess the free feeling will come step by step and get more. After every babystep I am doing. So it will take a while, one and a half year or even two. Meanwhile, I have to cope with my Nfather. I will have to copy less, but I have to. That is why it is neccessary to find out, how to cope with Npeople. And I guess there other people on this board who are in the same boot. Can not just leave. Things are taking time. I guess, I have to be patient.
In some books it sounds all so easy. But, well it is an enormous kind of work to do, to seperate from an N or from a Nfamily.
Hello Guests and Sam: Sam I am so glad you are posting here.
Patz, glad you there too and everyone else of course too!
I remember well when I first experienced the devastation of an N how I read and reread some of Sam V's stuff, and it was helpful. It also helped to post to others to validate my feelings of rage, and the sense of how unreal it was. It is what I call "The Great Awakening". When you finally begin to realize you are not crazy, you aren't the only one, that there is information and others to sound off with.
Yes, Great Awakening that is what it is. A good way to describe it.
Betty, and I really feel sorry for her, did not seek out the help she needed to stay in control and the rage of it all over took her. She was married to a narc and it did destroy her.....totally.
I think marriage is a wonderful thing, if you marry someone sane, but oh, well they should give one booklets, before saying yes and you have to sign you have read it, before you marry. Like in some contact. What everyone should know before marriage. Strangely they give all that warnings and watch out and blah, blah, blah, but not for marriage and not for your parents. Parents are somehow the holy cow and marriage they make a lot of bucks with the romantic part.
The stay in control part.....to me means to stay in control of our OWN behaviour. To do whatever is necessary to prevent us from behaving like an N. To do what it takes to feel better and not let the rage build to the point of destruction, where that is alllllll we feel. To release our anger and other negative feelings in ways that will not hurt others and possibly even in ways that will be of benefit to us (such as excercise...which improves our health while helping us release our feelings, or by some art form...which is another way of releasing feelings, while creating something of value and beauty, etc).
I agree, excerice is a good help and art, yes that might be a wonderful measure either. I like the sentence to create beauty and something of value and releasing the feelings while doing that. Great thoughts.
Thank you all for posting and I be glad that you there, Samantha
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PS. I had to sign in with that exclaimation mark, because just Samantha was taken.
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Hello all: First of all it is good to post here. To have collective thoughts and experiences as a group, I only see good in this. I have read others on different message boards intellecualize on the "humaness" of narcs and the labeling of such. I have put a lot of thought into this. I have observed and experienced the N father, the N husband and the N signifiant others for 50 some odd years. I truly believe they live in a two dimentional world. This is to say they only see what is before them and the information that is interpreted is with regard to what it means to them.......and only to them. Everyone is seen as a means to an end. To see others prehaps in three dimentions is to add emotional content, albeit empathy. I asked at one point in my realtionship with my significant other if it ever bothered him that he felt no empathy. He WAS able to state that it sometimes bothered him, but that was only flicker of insight I ever received from him on the subject.
The key in my humble opinion, is the ability to look at yourself and the psychological insight you get from how you interpret your world and the interrelationship to it. I think N's operate as if others were pieces of furniture to be moved around at will......somewhat like autistic individuals view others.....with no emotional content. The main difference I see between N's and autisic individuals is that N's are able to interlate their information and the meaning and connectedness it means to their world. Autistic individuals have gaping holes in their information and there is no connectedness, only what they have memorized and put into their memory and can retreive when required to do so.
As far as survival is concerned with N's. You can read books, you can seek help, you can exercise........a multitude of survival skills........and I do agree in the economic sense it is truly hard to get out.......but you must in order to survive emotionally. Betty had great resources, money if you will, but failed to use her brain and her emotions ruled. I found it useful to focus on what I needed to do for myself and my child. It could be only small things as in..........if you make a remark and the N takes exception no matter how innocent........just let him sulk and stew. Don't try to make amends it only makes things worse. It is the small things on a daily basis when you realize the elephant is finally out of the room. Your will must be stronger.
I think of Lance Armstrong, the 6 time winner of the Tour de France. Just pretend everything in front of you is flat. As you well know there are mountains on the tour and when asked how he made it through to the end, he replied he pretended when going through the mountains it was flat. So in a sense living with a narc you must be a mental athelte. You must be strong mentally and you can do this because you have the psychological stamina and insight the narc you live with does not have. Patz
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Patz, I agree on your thoughts. We have to be mentally very stable. To archieve that, that is why we are here.
Thank you for responding. Samantha
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I GOT THE BOOKS on the Betty Broderick case. I am thrilled and speechless.
I have not read the whole two books of course, but it looks like, Betty had no lawyer at all, had to respresent herself. The husband took over four year not to settle the divorce, did not pay her lawyer, and when he had the affair, he started on a plan to get all the money away from Betty.
There ares stories in the book, like he forces his own children with a court order to attend his wedding with the new wife, even that Betty said, she would drive them, and ask the judge to give the children a free will. They is also a story that Dan left for an expensive European journey with his new wife, leaving the babysitter 1oo dollars per week for groceries. Each check dated for the week. The babysitter called Betty and Betty bought groceries on her own credit.
The book is shocking and is telling what can happen if you have not dealt with finances, just being a housewife and then the husband is cheating you out.
It looked even that Betty searched for help. I remember from the TV-case her problems of getting a lawyer in San Diego, because Dan was the President of the Bar, it was hard to find one. And lawyers from LA did not wanted to come down and were also in a disadvantage, because they did not know the court in San Diego. And as already said, the exhusband refused to pay the lawyer. I do not know more details, but I will report what else I found in the books.
It looks to me that her husband was an N par excellence. And it looks really harder that I thought. Of course, no excuse for killing him. In one book there is even a passage when a lady friend is saying to Betty, she should move on. The problem to move far away was that she did not have the custom rights for her kids.
Then the pictures: betty before, very beautiful and then she got fat, ugly and looked exhausted.
Thinking about my plan to get out, I do think know we have to make a plan when getting away from N people in our life and try to stick to it.
The story is eye-opener what can happen if you continue to stay with an N, because Ns are getting more and more worse. And how the husband refused to pay money, and how that all got on on. The book can be adviced to every woman living with an Nman, even if he is not wealthy or especially if he is wealthy what can happen, if the guy walks out on you or if you want to walk out. Be prepared for the N. And the smart N, the studied and educated N is even worse.
More the next time, greetings to all, Samantha
Thoughts are very welcomed, like always...
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Sam: The Narc of Narc's in Bettys case. He achieved his goal: he destroyed her and made her invisible......nothing was left standing for either of them. Patz
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Thinking about my plan to get out, I do think know we have to make a plan when getting away from N people in our life and try to stick to it.
I agree. This gives us something to focus on besides how awful everything is. It gives us something to look forward to, which we all need.
If we occupy our minds with plans rather than thoughts about the person harming us, we are feeding our brains something postive, rather than concentrating on negative thoughts. This has to be better for us, right?
Good luck in your plan Samantha! (and I love the exclamation mark!).
The story is eye-opener what can happen if you continue to stay with an N, because Ns are getting more and more worse.
I think the story is an example of what can happen if you allow your thinking to deteriorate into a complete and negative mode. You see no other choice but to do what Betty did.
As you read, Samantha, see if you can find places where Betty could have chosen differently and possibly worked and planned toward a different and more positive outcome. I bet there were times??
GFN
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Dear GFN, dear all,
it looks like the first time since long, I have found a string to change the pressing button. Instead of getting angry in the morning after my father again had done again something careless and stupid, I did not. Then instead of getting upset my brain suddenly said, it is useless, he is N. Better tell him in a polite way again to do that, even if that goes on your nerves before getting upset with him and ruining your voice (I lost my voice in the beginning of this month) and your health. So I did not get upset. That is kind of improvement. Hopefully, I will stick to that and my upset getting will become less and less and I focus on my plan to get out here.
Sticking to the plan: This gives us something to focus on besides how awful everything is. It gives us something to look forward to, which we all need. If we occupy our minds with plans rather than thoughts about the person harming us, we are feeding our brains something postive, rather than concentrating on negative thoughts. This has to be better for us, right?
I will print that out. Yes, you are so very right. I guess that is the trick. As already stated, most books do not talk about that. It is like learning a language, you just buy a book and learn that language. That is takes babysteps to archieve that goal is maybe not very helpful in selling self-help books. Most of us what quick results like with diets. Unfortunately, this is not working. Like with a career, like with education it takes time. We need to be patient. To get rid of an N, you need a plan, you need to focus on it, you have to be patient and you need time and doing babysteps. That is what it is.
Good luck in your plan Samantha! (and I love the exclamation mark!).
Thanks a lot!
Something else came to my attention. When I detected the N thing, I took a look into many of this Internet self-helf groups on the Internet. Some posters continued to tell how awful their parents or their siblings are. But meanwhile they still came together with them and meet them or run errands for them. I got the feeling that some just like the situation as it is, especially if they ARE NOT LIVING with the N togehter. It looks sometimes to me that some are like the complaining situation, well, I am having these parents, I am a victim. Because in these cases they just could close or limit the contact and then they are free immediately and do not take maybe altogether a year or even two until be financially and miles away like in my situation. That had made me wonder. I do now think that some people like my Nmom and her Nsister really do like to sit in this victimtrap, because then they do not have anything to do to free themself. They can complain and everyone would understand, but they do not need any action. Comfortable situation, hm? Also, compared with the Betty Broderick case, I think some people just like to get upset about something to put some excitement in their life. Like when I was in this legal working group with this awful people, when you went there on Monday they all complained about what all went wrong at their weekend. When say asked me and I answered, oh my weekend was fine, just some walking with the dog, they were really amazed and then they continued to complain and I was very boring in their eyes. I guess that is also what my Nmother and her Nsister are doing, to rage to have then excitement in their boring life. They are to lazy and self-centered to get excitement on a common way. My Nmother would be even to lazy to take a trip in another country. Oh, too much work. They do not work and are lazy and so life becomes a little exciting when they rage and bully around.
I think the story is an example of what can happen if you allow your thinking to deteriorate into a complete and negative mode. You see no other choice but to do what Betty did.
The marriage was not okay, since a least 15 years, they were things wrong and wacky.
As you read, Samantha, see if you can find places where Betty could have chosen differently and possibly worked and planned toward a different and more positive outcome. I bet there were times??
GFN, you name it. Exactly, under that interest I searched the case. Of course, there were many ways out long before. At least after her husband had been financially so successful, Betty should have stopped nagging her husband for the things she did not like at him or the things he obviously did not do and would never do and get a life on her own. They now had a housekeeper and an au-pair. In her situation, I would have done less for the children and get myself to law school. Her husband would have treated her differently, and her marriage was since years on the rock. He would have had more respect for her and at least when they would have divorced (the divorce seemed to be coming anyhow, if not his secretary it would have someone else) she would know the law, the court would knew she was a lawyer, she would have had more self-estem for handling her own case and she would have found a lawyer, because she would have been a member oo the bar by herself. She also should not have spended money on all that expensive things, if I would be her, I would have already starting to safe money.Of course her husband behaved N in many ways and of course his assistent wanted to marry him, but at least she should have found a way to stop nagging and no get on with her own personal life. The children were already older. It should be possible with a house keeper and a babysitter to go to law school instead to all her social events.Because in the end all her so-called friends even tested negative against her as witnesses.
I think she was too self-absorbed to see what was going on or to see realistic. Her husband was extremely good looking, he made a bunch of money and the marriage was gone death since years. It was just a matter of time when some girly (like the 12 year younger former flight attendent) took an eye on him. He was never the husband she wanted, he often stayed alone out long in the night. She wanted him to change, but we can not change another person. But even when that would not have happened, it would have been better to be prepared. Therefore, I would have given none for all that social events with other mummies and housewifes, I would have seen more the neccisity to get my own life. To move on, and not only doing plastic surgery to look younger or diet. You can not compete with a young girl for that. But you can compete with other things, which comes with age. And even then when the husband would have seperated, she would go on with her own life. That is so much better then being a single divorced former housewife, continueing to shop, and sit for coffee or lunch somewhere.
Even after the divorce, where her husband cheated with money on her, and basically she got nothing, she still got 16.000 Dollars per months alimony and she gave to the kids, because her exhusband did not paid cars or appartements or the older girls which she did or maybe even college. He started to became stingy with money and I am sure that was the influence of the new wife, who wanted kid with him, her kids and get Bettys kids out. At that moment she should have told her kids, go to your father, he is making over 100.000 dollars per months or even double, so ask him. Then the kids would have even to sue the father and because he was concerned about his reputation, he maybe would have paid. She should not have fought to the custom right for the two boys because she needed a break. All the fighting is making one tired. She should have taken time for herself to heal after all she went through. The kids were already older and customy had the father, so if something happened to them it was his fault. She did more than enough. I can not observe the kids all my life, I can not be always there for them. This is impossible. She should have gone to Europe or taken a vacation and then get a plan to get on with her life, and forget about her husband of 20 years. At least he paid her money. Some women have a much worser situation after a divorce. OK, she was not the stunning beautiful wife of that successful businessman anymore, but well, she still had a chance to get on with her very own life. And she did not.
Samantha
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I can not log in.
In addition I would recommend the books about Betty Broderick. It shows all the Ntraits which can be involved, difficult family, Ns on the family side of both part of the couple, the religion traits, the missing empathy and so on.
After I collected much information about Ns, if I would have wriitten a fiction Nnovel, I would have written this book. The book has it all.
And it shows very dramatic what can happen if we do not remove ourselved from Ns and get out of situations like this. I do recommend any book about that case.
Samantha
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Hi Samantha!
I have to get going but I just wanted to say good for you for not letting your father's behaviour get to you today. You're doing the opposite of Betty, which is a step in the right direction!
I will write more but for now I must go.
Try clicking on "log in to check your private messages". It seems to work, so I've read.
Take care and keep the plan infront of your mind!
GFN
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Good Morning Samantha:
So I did not get upset. That is kind of improvement.
I think it's an essential improvement and I admire you for finding a way to calm yourself and make this change. Keep doing that because it will only help you.
...you need a plan, you need to focus on it, you have to be patient and you need time and doing babysteps.
I agree and it takes real effort to do all of that. Imagine a world where we all did that? (I know that is just dreaming but it is possible to surround ourselves with people who are similar and who are like this--by carefully choosing friends). Sometimes I think patience is not just a virtue but is essential to health.
I got the feeling that some just like the situation as it is.
I wonder? Or maybe they are just in the habit of the way it is? "Stuck"?
...oh my weekend was fine, just some walking with the dog, they were really amazed and then they continued to complain and I was very boring in their eyes.
So if you have nothing to complain about, they don't want to talk to you?
People do need to vent and so sometimes it's hard to tell if that is all they are doing or if, as you say, they just can't hold a conversation unless they are complaining or bad-mouthing others. I know some who do that a lot.
Re: Betty:
I think she was too self-absorbed to see what was going on or to see realistic.
Do you think Betty was trying to soothe her pain by methods that were not good for her?
I find it easy sometimes to think I know what I might do in someone else's situation. Then sometimes I realize that I haven't got a clue, unless I'm actually standing in those shoes. It's so much easier for us to look at what others do and see what we think "should" be done. It's harder to see that in ourselves, don't you think? So for Betty, she probably didn't see that she was not helping herself, or that she had other choices that might have made her situation better.
She should not have fought to the custom right for the two boys because she needed a break.
Didn't she, as a mother, have an obligation to fight for custody of her children, to protect them from their nasty father?
...she still had a chance to get on with her very own life. And she did not.
I wonder why she didn't? What caused her to get "stuck"?
Hope today is going well for you.
GFN
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Dear GFH, dear all,
I checked private messages, but there was not any.
I found out what made Betty snap. One or two days before she shot exhusband and new wife, she received two letters from the exhusband associate and attorney, that she did not got customy for the two boys and another letter that she thought she might had to go into jail again for violation of an restainment order. Then she went in the morning to her exhusbands house and let herself in with the keys of her daughter. When the new wife saw Betty, she screamed, call the police to her husband and then Betty who had taken her new gun with her, shot first the wife and then the exhusband. She claimed that she went there to talk to her exhusband. Well, it was clear that it was not good to talk to someone when breaking into his house and it seemed to be that personal talk was not adviseable at that time. And the question was, if is would have brought anything.
Moreover, she had a lot of bad luck. The second jury, there were a least one person who did not wanted to claim her guilty and if that person would have known that, there would be a second hung jury and Betty would be free. On the other hand, I do not understand why the attorney did not claimed that Betty was tempory not able of any guilt,
kowing what she was doing when she shot her exhusband and his wife, even if she never regretted. I think that she was.
So altogether she had a lot of really bad luck.
I have to get going but I just wanted to say good for you for not letting your father's behaviour get to you today. You're doing the opposite of Betty, which is a step in the right direction!
Thank you. Yes, I am doing steps in the right direction.
Can you imagine what happened yesterday? I met a friend, drove late home and was stopped by the police. They already had stopped five cars. I must have looked so peaceful, friendly, that they did not even wanted to see my driving-licence, not make an alhohol test (I had not drunk any alkohol), nothing. The police man just said friendly, we just want to know if you have drunken something. And I just said, no, I have not, so you can drive on. I thanked them and drove on. And all the other cars had to stay. I think I am on the right step, yes, I must have looked so peaceful that they just let me go. Interesting, hmmm?
I think it's an essential improvement and I admire you for finding a way to calm yourself and make this change. Keep doing that because it will only help you.
Thank you for admiring me. I had wonderful help here on the board. :D I found more out. Why are Ns so stressful? Yes, they are tired making. Why? Because, you can not act around them like with friends, because you always have to control yourself and cope with them. Because they, need their share of Nsupply, will alway nag around, tell all the bad things that happen, and you must all the time control yourself not to tell them to stop it because it is so energy consuming. Arg, what awful people!
I came to the conclusion, that I absolutely have to limit every meeting which I can limit with my awful father, because he is really hardly standable. And what else? It does feels so good not to be around him, because he is such a disgusting person. Remenbers me,when I stopped living with my
mother anymore, after finishing school. It just felt so good not to be with her anymore.
By the way, Betty was in many ways N too, I think so. She never apologized with her kids and it did not seem that she has reflected herself a lot. But maybe she just had Ntraits. I do not know.
I agree and it takes real effort to do all of that. Imagine a world where we all did that? (I know that is just dreaming but it is possible to surround ourselves with people who are similar and who are like this--by carefully choosing friends). Sometimes I think patience is not just a virtue but is essential to health.
Oh, this world would be very peaceful. Yes, I choose carefully my friends and I only surround myself with people who have similar understandings of the manners, the world and so on. There are none Ns in it anymore. All the Ns are maybe now aquaintances,I just call when I need some information. That is it, why
should I not do? They behaved N all their life. If you lure them then, they even happy that you called them. ARG.
I wonder? Or maybe they are just in the habit of the way it is? "Stuck"?
Might be. Some of them are stuck. But also some of them, they do not work on change for whatever reason, even that they know they need to. But sometimes it might be also that they need longer to transfer their thinking into action. And that is also not that easy and as we recognized it takes many many small steps in one direction.
People do need to vent and so sometimes it's hard to tell if that is all they are doing or if, as you say, they just can't hold a conversation unless they are complaining or bad-mouthing others. I know some who do that a lot.
Yes. I guess we have to found out what kind of people they are. Might be they just had bad luck or a bad day or just in a bad situation. Or they are just complainers. If they are the later, run.
Do you think Betty was trying to soothe her pain by methods that were not good for her?
Yes, like by eating and shopping. Maybe even alkohol, she looked so blow up on the later pictures.
I find it easy sometimes to think I know what I might do in someone else's situation. Then sometimes I realize that I haven't got a clue, unless I'm actually standing in those shoes. It's so much easier for us to look at what others do and see what we think "should" be done. It's harder to see that in ourselves, don't you think?
Yes, absolutely, much harder if,you are in the situation. But if I already thought out a solution,when someone else was in that situation then my brain, usually says,hello was there not something and then, I take over the former devleoped help idea. But of course,every situation is different. Some are similar. But I try to avoid. I am a big avoider. Like not walking alone in the dark a lot if I do not know the area
and there are no people. Or I better always took the expensive cab then walking the few step,because you never know. I girlfriend of mine, who was not that careful and I always told her, got once
robbed on the street when we lived in a capital town of Europe,where a lot of these things are happened in this area. I always took the cab and she always walked. I never walked there by my self alone. Never ever. And I spent so much money for cabs.
So for Betty, she probably didn't see that she was not helping herself, or that she had other choices that might have made her situation better.
I think that Betty was on a way, where she did not acted smart. It seems to be logical that is not not good to scream a lot of insults on an answering machine of a lawyer who is also the President of the bar, even if that is your husband or your former husband and especially if that husband has a girlfriend who want to be rid of you.
Didn't she, as a mother, have an obligation to fight for custody of her children, to protect them from their nasty father?
The father, was not that bad. He was under the influence under that girl-friend, but I would not consider him nasty to the kids. And of course, she had an obilgation to fight for the kids, but what is all that fighting for if she continued to blame him, to eat, to shop exessively and so on. She got a lot of money from her husband to support and she should have taken a time out. Sometimes we have to do that if we are not able to stop ourselves anymore, because we are not doing anymore good.
Mostly, we can not afford it, but she was in that lucky circumstances that she could. She could have said she is ill for whatever, stop therefore the divorce proceedings and then take a least 6 months off. Go somewhere, where she could talk and not gossip in the whole town about her husband and the girlfriend which is or was backfiring.
I can understand Betty perfectly. My father is such a bad person, such a liar and so selfish and awful, I would like to shot him by myself. For people like my father and my mother I do not see any sense on the earth. They are just there for tortureing other people with all their blame and in my mother sitution with rage. They are lazy and truthfully unhappy people. Think about the police happening. I always was friendly to policemen, but I became more and more friendly the older I
became. My parents always where unfriendly and insulting to them and had always troubles, even if the cops just stopped them. They just could never behave. I felt s o often ashamed by my parents.
They just stopped to behave that way torward cops when they told them to stop that and threatened them with penalties. That is so typcially N. If there is no pressure from offical agencies they do not stop.
I wonder why she didn't? What caused her to get "stuck"?
I think her ego. She always thought about the other girl as the office bimbo and the cunt. She never saw her as a rival. Then when the husband left, which he did not want first case, she made some mistakes and then that all continued. I always wondered,why she wanted to keep the husband, and I think not because she loved him, no, because she wanted to keep him because of the money, his status quo and keep the family and not being divorced and a single woman. That was her main concern. And she had helped him very much to be where he was. At least she should have keep the husband as a kind of friend she should have tried to get a fair settlement. And if the husband was really not willing to do, at least not continue to insulting him onthe phone. But that is the rage.
When that all is too much. We have to find ways to control ourselves and get it to the level that we finally have to deal not a lot with these people.
It would have been more easy for any attorney if she would stopped that to get a better deal in the divorce. She should have consulted a divorce attorney long before the husband moved out, she should have consulted one, after she found out about the girlfriend. She should have made a plan and maybe a plan B and then stick to it.
I think she was overworked and exhausted. But even then little things maybe would have helped.And she was not able to let go of her husband. Obviously, they had problems in the marriage. At least she should have admitted them and because they had money, found some way, like moving into the guest house or getting on with her very own life. Not letting the hubband do all that decision, doing some by herself. Way to passive. And I do not see any sense in keeping a husband who is obviosuly untruthful.
She was beautiful, intelligent and she seemed like a fun person. She should have found easily someone new. Maybe see was lacking self-esteem.
Yes, today it is going kind of well for me, but I know until I am out here and until I finally can cut the cord with these awful people, who are my parents, I will not really be fine. I am working and longing to the day, I am out here and I do not ever have to see my father again in my life.
I can understand Betty very well. Maybe she should have taken her boys out of school and move somewhere else that she did not would have to see her husband and the girlfriend anymore. I think I would have done that. Move back to New York or somehwhere else. If I see my father, I could slap him into the face and telling him what an awful guy he is, but I know that will not help and is not good for me.
With Ns the best is to separate ASAP and that for good. So I am trying to avoid my father as much as possible and if I need help try to get it from other people. Step by step and then finally, one is out. That is what is helping.
Thesepeople will never change, just will get worse and will do all to make you suffer.
Samantha
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I read more in the book and I would like to tell.
In the first trial a Dr. Don Lustermann, a family psychologist from New York who was specialized in infidelity testified.
He said that it is never the infidelity per se that is so devasting to the victim, he said but the accompanying lies and the longer the lies go on, the deeper the damage inflicted on the self esteem of the victim.
In the case of the Betty, instead once the it is out in the open, instead of apologizing to Betty for the lies and hurt she was still the crazy one. He wanted to send her to a hospital, all because he never admitted that he had lied to her for years. Her exhusband never helped her to let go of her rage because he never admitted to the lie. Dr Lustermann found nothing unusual in Betty's subsequent obscenitites, vandalisms and other acts of violence. She had no other outlet for what he called her unrequited hot rage. And not only the eshusband, also her own family and friends denied her any right to her anger. What she needed was for people to say she was entiteled to her rage, that she was not crazy. You can not just expect victims to step over that phase.
Interesting, hm?
That is what my parents did all my life to me, lied, lied and lied and the a part of my mother's family did not help, friends did not help and because of the awful country (DO never move to Germany, full of Npeople and no help and very bad laws) I was very stucked. My parents are similar, they want to take me away my flat, my son, my health insurance and would like to destroy me. Fortunately, I am much clever and intelligenter than they are and they are so N that I found always ways out to fight them. But in the long run that all is sucking up too much energy, I am glad if that is over. I do not understand these N's, in the end, they mostly end up being alone.
In my case, as already told, there is the only way to focus on a plan and to drop the contact for good as soon as I left the German country. I want never ever in contact again with these awful people who unfortunately my parents.
Betty had bad luck with an awful prosecutor either. She had so much bad luck. I am really sorry for her.
I will check the internet about the Dr. Lustermann and I will check if I can find more on Betty. Everyone who is interested, can leave me a message.
Meanwhile, happy sunday.
Samantha
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I have two interesting webpages:
1. http://boards.aetv.com/threadedout.jsp?forum=221&thread=300026579
There is a current discussion about the case.
2. http://www.drlusterman.com/
The therapeut who testied in the case.
Samantha
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Here is a link to recent interviews with Betty Broderick. She speaks about abuse in marriage and about her case.
For those who are interessted the link is
http://www.lexxicon.com/bettybroderick.htm
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Yesterday, I had an encounter with my father. Later I just ate too much. Not overeating, but I ate a little bit too much.
Currently, I am reading the book, The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment by Donaldson-Pressman...
Well, I read a lot that we children of Nparents are not allowed our feelings. That is why I ate too much. That is why I got the rage.
I guess that is why Betty got the rage either. She was not allowed to be angry by none, not her husband, her family or friends and she had every cause to be angry.
So know that I know that I am not allowed to show any feelings with these people, it is really best to see them as less as possible or unplug them. Like with an electric socket. Just plug them out of our life.
That what I have to do with my father either for my very own health reasons.
Samantha
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Hi Samantha!
unplug them.
I love this idea! Just unplug them from our heads, like the plug coming out from a socket. That is such a great way to think about it!
Unplug them from the socket in our brains. What? There's no power here. Your light's not on. Can't hear a thing you're saying. Huh??
I'm afraid you've been unplugged. Sorry, your plug is out. You can't connect because you've been unplugged. Heeheehee!!!
Good thinking girl!! :D
Hug from GFN
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GFN, Thanks for the hug.
Yeah, the unplug thing is great. It works pretty well.
Also a very recommended method if you bump into these people who continue to talk gossip or stupid things we do not want to hear, just unplug them from your brain out of the electric socket, let them talk, because they are unplugged we do no longer listen and then, we just leave, ohh gotto go.
Big hug to you GFN
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Hello GFN and Sam:
I have been reading the post on Betty. It is my understanding her husband was a lawyer. It has been my observation that people get really hooked on the "perceived powerful". It does not matter what Betty told the parents, friends or other interested parties concerned. If the N exhusband told them black was white as far as Betty was concerned, they believed him over her. The "perceived power" of the N was greater than reality with these people. Betty felt she had no where to go, no one to really listen to her. The lies prevailed in her husband's case due to the "perceived" power on his part. Patz
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Patz, I agree. But remember, the husband was not only a lawyer, he was also a medical doctor. And he went to Harvard law school and the John Hopkins for medicine. So what kind of better education can you have?
It was a shame that Betty had none who really would have listen to her and I bet that in the times of internet, she would have found someone and she could have checked books on Ns and abusive husbands in the internet.
Thank you reading and responsing Patz. I am happy you like the posts here. The Betty Broderick case had helped me enormously to get on with my life. It really does show what can happen if we do not remove ourselves soon enough from a N.
Samatha
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Hello,
The lies prevailed in her husband's case due to the "perceived" power on his part. Patz
I'm sure you are correct here.
It was a shame that Betty had none who really would have listen to her
It is a shame.
Regardless, she still had choices:
...just unplug them from your brain
She could have finished it without killing.
Bottom line. Maybe she felt stuck, maybe she felt totally alone, she was enraged, etc but she did...have choices.
GFN
[/quote]
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GFN:
So true. She should have just unplugged him from brain. How she solved her problem should be exhibit A for all of us here on what not to do. There are always solutions to problems. Some get resolved quicker than others. In my case it took 25 years to resolve. But, you know what, it resolved finally in the best possible way.......freedom from the N.
The Brodrick case just highlights that on the winding, twisting road with an N..........you must control your own behavior and responses no matter what. That is really the only behavior you can control. The N see us a cartoon character. Flat, cardboard like creatures to be moved at their whim, given balloon like comments to insert whatever conversation they deem appropriate, and finally cut out if none of it is to their liking.
Betty is a sad road map on what not to do. If there is any good out of the Brodrick case, this can be the only thing. Patz
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Hi ya Patz:
I have a hard time with "should have"s. It's so hard to know what is best, unless one is right there in it.
But......Betty certainly could have unplugged him from her brain, or could have searched for someone to help her, or could have focussed on a plan to improve her life, or etc.....I certainly don't know all of her choices but my bet is she definately had some that could have made a difference.
It is a sad road map on what not to do, I totally agree.
I'm sorry you had such a long, hard time of it, Patz, and I'm very, very glad to hear you say it is resolved for you. That is what matters in the end.
GFN
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Dear GFN and dear Patz, and of course dear all,
I am also sorry you had such a long, hard time of it, Patz, and I'm also very, very glad to hear you say it is resolved for you. That is wonderful. Some things just seems to take time.
She could have finished it without killing.
Even that she would have killed him, she could have it planned.
That sounds bad about me, but just to stress out how bad it is, if we let Ns take over. Her husband came so often drunk home, she could have let him fallen from the stairs, he would not even remember. But also for that action, she would needed a plan and stick to it. Then the husband would have been gone, she could have gotten the life insurance and continue to live a nice life. And it was known that the husband drunk a lot, everybody know that, so why not take that as an advantage? An accident can alway happen if people are drunk.
I am sure that many people, who have a spouse who is abuseing them and who does not want to get a divorce because of finance reasons go to that extremes. Moreover, I think that the person who is abusing or threating the other one (Mostly it is the wife), is so N that they do not recognize that they getting themselves in a dangerous situation. Like with Bettys husband everyone urged him to get an alarm in the house, but he said he did not need it.
Bottom line. Maybe she felt stuck, maybe she felt totally alone, she was enraged, etc but she did...have choices.
She had and bottom line, leave the N as soon as possible or get a plan to leave him. Because things mostly just get worse if you continue to live with Ns or being in touch with them. Mostly, I think it is easy to get more and more angry on the N. That is why I do not understand people who stay in contact with Ns. If the N is making you so upset, please leave or plan on leaving. This are in my opinion the only possible choices left.
The Brodrick case just highlights that on the winding, twisting road with an N..........you must control your own behavior and responses no matter what. That is really the only behavior you can control.
Yes and here we are again. We have to control US and our responses to THEM, because they are lacking any kind of manners, human behaviour or empathy.And that is making us upset which is a common response on their behaviour. Therefore, we have to control us, not to get natural feelings and we have to use techniques not to get them like manipulation ourselves. The N in the private is just unstandable.
The N see us as cartoon character. Flat, cardboard like creatures to be moved at their whim, given balloon like comments to insert whatever conversation they deem appropriate, and finally cut out if none of it is to their liking.
I agree, got example.
Betty is a sad road map on what not to do. If there is any good out of the Brodrick case, this can be the only thing.
Yes, I agree. Sadly, I think there are many Betty or Berts outside who did that. It happens every day. Mostly the people do not get that famous.
Nice sunday to everybody!
Samantha
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Hi Sam,
I haven't forgotten you, I have been reading the suggested web sites and find them interesting. I had no idea of all the informaiton and thoughts about the case.
I think no matter her husbands problems being an N, she must be responsible for her actions.
She may have been alone and lost everything. Violence and Killing gets you put away. Maybe being smarter about the killing would keep you out of jail. So you go on,you get remarried, find you still deal with life the same way.
When is it your job (Betty's) to take responsiblity for taking anothers life.
His punishment may have come later, its never in our timing, we need to let lifes dissapointments work themselves out.
She may have gone thru all of this for reasons beyond her imagination and it would've worked out to be a wonderful blessing.
Now she may never know, he pushed her buttons, controled her one last time. What a fool.
Great site Sam, lots to think about.....onlyrenting
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Dear Onlyrenting, dear others,
I haven't forgotten you, I have been reading the suggested web sites and find them interesting. I had no idea of all the informaiton and thoughts about the case.
I glad that you like it and find it interesting.
I think no matter her husbands problems being an N, she must be responsible for her actions.
We have laws. Unfortunately there is no law against verbal abuse only togehter with other criminal acts. So you have the option, either a) to plan a killing and do not get caught b) to do a killing and get caught and punished. The choice is yours. Even if we truly are the opinion that some people do not deserve to live any longer, selfjustice is not allowed.
When is it your job (Betty's) to take responsiblity for taking anothers life.
His punishment may have come later, its never in our timing, we need to let lifes dissapointments work themselves out.
You are right the punishment of other people always seems to come too late.
Now she may never know, he pushed her buttons, controled her one last time. What a fool.
That is what I found out about my father, he likes to control me with all his lieing, justification and wrongdoing. With toxic people there is not other way to control yourself as long as you are with them. Therefore we strongly should limit your time with them, because it is too much tension to be togehter with these people. If you do not control yourself, because a natural reaction is at some point to loose it and say just stop this abusive behaviour and do get angry. That is just natural. But then if we loose it the Ns, says happily, look you lost it, see you can not control yourself, you are the crazy one. To the best ist to stay away from people like that. God, I hate my parents. They go so on my nerves and I am sooo happy, if I finally can cut them out of life. What awful and nasty people they are!
But still, I can understand it. I just had an unpleasent phone call again with my Nfather. The guy is so irrational, so evil and does not look anyhow in the mirror for his own behaviour. But I do try not to get affected that much anymore and to keep going on with my own plan.
I am so glad if these people who are called my parents are finally out of my life. First they will be out of my life, because I am gone and do not have to be in touch with them anymore and second there will be the day they both death.
Samantha
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Sam,
We have laws. Unfortunately there is no law against verbal abuse only togehter with other
This is so true, I think this is the battle we all have. Think about it from the time we were little, we learn from peoples words, they can be uplifting or so distructive. I think women especialy, are affected more from words.
I know there is no magic button, I do like your Idea about unplugging their power. Maybe someday they should invent a lock for the voice box so the verbal abusive people are forbiden to speak.
says happily, look you lost it, see you can not control yourself, you are the crazy one. To
I have had this happen, and sometimes its comes out of nowhere and is quite creepy. They are desparate people saying anything to make you believe it's you.
But still, I can understand it. I just had an unpleasent phone call again with my Nfather. The guy is so irrational, so evil and does not look anyhow in the mirror for his own behaviour.
I know at one time I didn't understand it, and now I do. This has got to be your best tool to overcome all of this.
I have walked away from my relationship with my mother so long ago.
When I do see her, it is ALWAYS DAYS, BEFORE I GET BACK TO NORMAL.
Let me tell you this story. The last person you want to have any kind of physic feelings about is someone you dont get along with.
I live in Califonia, we have the LA County Fair, Thousand of people.
My H and I are walking and I tell him I get this odd feeling Im going to see my Mother. I had not seen her in 10yrs, Why would I think I would see anyone I knew let alone my mother who lived in Oregon at the time.
I'm walking and looking and there she is.. "I said Mom, I walked up to her, she didn't see me. I was in such disbelief. We talked a short while and found, she was in the area to visit with my sisters. She never tells me when she is in town.
I don't understand it but maybe when we don't get along with a parent we are able to hyper-sence their evilness and we feel out of balance when we are around them.
Wild stuff, this hper-sensing just came to me. I always remember seeing her then, there was a very strong feeling, I had a sick feeling in my stomach or butterflys something very strong. I kept looking and knowing I was going to see her. I wish it wasnt like this with her but it is, Im better off not being around her.
I wish you could put an invisible shield to keep out their bad feelings.
Take care Onlyrenting
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Dear Onlyrenting,
thank you for sharing the story. I also think that sometimes I just feel the evil.
I know at one time I didn't understand it, and now I do. This has got to be your best tool to overcome all of this.
Since I am working on the issues, reading books abouts Ns and being on this board, I can understand that better. The evil.
When I do see her, it is ALWAYS DAYS, BEFORE I GET BACK TO NORMAL.
Can you you-if you feel confident to do so describe that?
I don't understand it but maybe when we don't get along with a parent we are able to hyper-sence their evilness and we feel out of balance when we are around them
.
Maybe we are like animals, we feel the fear that something which has harm us once is around. Danger if around, we just feel it.
Wild stuff, this hper-sensing just came to me. I always remember seeing her then, there was a very strong feeling, I had a sick feeling in my stomach or butterflys something very strong. I kept looking and knowing I was going to see her. I wish it wasnt like this with her but it is, Im better off not being around her.
Maybe that is your personal alarm system.
I will write more on that, later
Samantha
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Sam,
Quote:
When I do see her, it is ALWAYS DAYS, BEFORE I GET BACK TO NORMAL.
Can you you-if you feel confident to do so describe that?
I would have an upset feeling inside of me knowing I would be seeing her . I would feel distracted antisipating, her behavior.
Days later I would remember how she treated me cold and uncaring.
During a visit I would think how the time is almost over, she hasn't dug the knife in yet, and as I leave she makes sure she would say something hurtful.
maybe make a hurtful comment out of no where like she wanted to say it all along then had to spit it out just before I was about to leave.
I would never look forward to a visit Knowing I was about to enter the Den of lions. I would have to deal with the silent treatment from her and my sisters and their kids. I would walk in a room and she would be cold to me, barley making idle conversation. maybe reading or doing something else, no eye contact. My sisters would follow suite, be in their little huttle, making sure my mom would see they barley noticed me in the room. Or one niece, was horrible she would say something rude so I would feel so angry I truley wanted to wash her mouth out. I guess I never did anything to this child(30) and could not understand her hatefullness.
I would always make the visit short, tell her I loved her, she would never return it with I love you too.
I would try and shake if off, I had to learn that she was always this way to me and nothing I do or say will change her.
I would tell myself I like who I am. She decided not to know me, so how can she be judgement of who I really am.
I say I love you and I get nothing. It must be, she has no Love inside of her to give. Can't squeeze the love out of someone so empty. Just accept it, not wanting to change it, or make the effort.
I just never got anything back from her so Im empty inside to care.
She makes no effort to know about my 12 yr old and that's fine.
It hurts my daughter that her grandma has little to do with us. We try and focus on the her grandpa, who loves us very much.
I hope I didn't go off the track too much. I do have a lot of hurt from her and have had 27 yrs with as little as possible to do with her.
onlyrenting
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Sam:
I have forgotten you either. I will be back later to post when I can read what has been stated before. I have been thinking about you. Be back later. Patz
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Hi everyone:
I've been reading along here and digesting and gaining more of a view-- might be a way to put it.
Onlyrenting wrote:
...as I leave she makes sure she would say something hurtful. maybe make a hurtful comment out of no where like she wanted to say it all along then had to spit it out just before I was about to leave.
This type of behaviour, on your mother's part, does it feel really toward you and you only? I mean, does she do this to just you or to others too? Maybe your father, sometimes? It's just that it seems like it could be taken as so directed, so personal, but I have a feeling she does this to others too (and I have no basis for that except a strange suspicion, which may be completely off).
I guess what I'm getting at is how clearly this behaviour demonstrates the essence of N, sort of. Say something that hurts. Say it just before they leave so it will sit in their head for awhile after. Say it quick, like spit and fire, and some even say it sickeningly sweetly. Say it without care or concern for the hurt it causes, and as a matter of fact, say it as if to enjoy the idea of that.
This has nothing to do with you, Onlyrenting. I mean that you, in no way, are responsible for this lack of love your mother is showing you (and the mean things she says). Even if she seems to show some kind of affection toward your siblings (which I don't know if that is the case but it seems they are playing along with her, trying to stay in the game and doing what it takes to stay in her good books??? Maybe they feel the lack of love too and are trying desperately to earn it somehow?? or maybe they are more like her than you are???).
I would always make the visit short, tell her I loved her, she would never return it with I love you too.
Unconditional love you are giving your mother. You are not like her. She hasn't got a clue what love is. Think about that? Not having a clue about such a profound thing as love. Where did you learn it, onlyrenting?
I'm trying to think of this problem like alcoholism. It's the disease talking. I know my mother loved me and I know how much I love my children. I can only imagine how much it must hurt to want love from your mom and to feel that there is none and never will be any. This is a major hurt, a traumatic idea that somehow, you've got to find a way around.
It's her sickness that causes her behaviour. If she were a well person, she would know what love is and be expressing it to you, not saying things that hurt you. I would be asking myself: "Why doesn't she love me?" but that's not the real question. The one to ask is: "Why doesn't the disease, the sickness, the illness, the diagnosis, whatever it's called, why doesn't it ...love me????". That is a ridiculous question and maybe asking it will somehow help to direct the responsibility away from you?? It's not you she doesn't love. It's herself.
(((((((((((((((((onlyrenting))))))))))))))))
GFN
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GFN said
This type of behaviour, on your mother's part, does it feel really
toward you and you only? I mean, does she do this to just you or to others too? Maybe your father, sometimes? It's just that it seems like it could be taken as so directed, so personal, but I have a feeling she does this to others too
My mother singled me out, I was the Black Sheep. I was not one to flow with her thinking. I remember this family picture my three sisters all got their hair cut and dyed blond, they all looked like my mom. I had red hair, my dad had red (auburn hair) I wouldn't let her cut it short or dye it..
So I was the odd one looked different, my Ferternal twin brother had blond curly hair. (I think we missed the bonding stage with her, 6 weeks in the incobator)
Yes, I'm sure she has given her teaspoon of poision to each of us at one time our another. She had a horrible upbringing and she has problems.
I do believe she must be an N. I remember my sisters telling me a few years back, the type of problem she has no Physicatrist would take the challenge.
GFN
sort of. Say something that hurts. Say it just before they leave so it will sit in their head for awhile after. Say it quick, like spit and fire, and some even say it sickeningly sweetly. Say it without care or concern for the hurt it causes, and as a matter of fact, say it as if to enjoy the idea of that
.
I believe when she is given the chance she always gives her hateful treatment to my twin brother, myself and my Father.
I live here and when Im faced with being in the same room with my sisters and her I get treated different. My sisters say they know it is
true but they like the money she gives them they dont rock the boat.
Let me tell you of the this dream I used to have when I was as young as 7 years old.
Its a dark cave my father, my brother, and myself are in the cave.
My father has his lunch as tho he is going to work. we are just standing in the cave and it's very very dark. I can't remember anything else.
I believe her treatment of me was to get me out of the house because I truely loved my brother and father. No way I would go along with any hurt to him.
she could see I would not play her game, my sisters all got lots of money to stay around so she could move in the direction of a pending divorce.
I remember seeing her kissing the MILK MAN. (she had others)
(I was hiding behind the front door)
I was 6 or so and it could be she thought I would tell my Dad.
I was too young to understand it, but I remember it.
I never told my Dad it was too far beyond my understaning at the time.
GFN
Why doesn't the disease, the sickness, the illness, the diagnosis, whatever it's called, why doesn't it ...love me????".
I will digest this part, it makes me sad for some reason
I guess this is how I deal with my husband I learned from my experiance with my mother.
I will keep it in my thoughts as I talk to my daughter about the N's in my life.
Thanks for your attention to this it has been a lot of pain in my life.
I didn't want to take my messy life and put it on Sams thread, but o-well.
I hope my can of worms didn't mess up the flow of the Betty Story.
Sorry Sam.
onlyrenting1
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Dear GFN, Sam, Only and All:
I have read all the posts I have missed. My father was a great N. He had many affairs GFN. I remember when I came home from college on a weekend. The phone rang and I answered it. There was a man on the other end of the phone who said "May I speak to Mrs. soso ( my mother). To this day I do not know what made me reply "This is Mrs. soso (my mother). He then proceeds to tell me that my father is having an affair with his wife and to please leave his wife alone. I asked him how he knew my father was having an affair with his wife. He replied "I found checks in her purse that he has written to her." The man calling still had no idea I was not my mother but the daugher that he was speaking to. I then replied "Well, this is not Mrs. soso but I am his daughter." The man was so shocked, he said "I am so sorry, I did not intend for you to know or let this happen."
I just laughed at the man on the other end. I said to him "Do you really think your wife is the first affair my father has had?" I told him, "This happens on a frequent basis with other women, your wife is a fool."
I never told my mother this information for the next 25 years. I learned early on she had decided to stay with my father for economic reasons and SHE was the one to decide when and where to leave. I could not do this for her. I could only encourage her.
The moral of this story: Even though you are given negative information through sins of ommission or commission by your parents, you must relegate it to being THEIR problem. You are the child. Sam you are given very negative information from your mother. You are rejecting that information, which you are correct to do. YOU decide the kind of person you want to be and do not let circumstances or other people tell you black is white. When you know the sun is shining at noon day and someone tells you other wise, trust yourself. Your sisters do not have the courage it takes to face life. It takes courage to face life. It is much easier to take the money, it is the path of least resistance.
GFN: I have a disabled son. I remember going home about 3 years ago and I have a two wealthy brothers and their children have had every advantage life can afford. They are shallow individuals. I was home about 3 weeks. Can you guess how much time they spent with my son. (He is quite capable of doing and enjoying many things) My neices and nephews spent no time, no time at all with him. He was invisible just as I was. Well, one can chalk it up to their youth you might say. Charaterlogically, the dye is cast wouldn't you say by the time you are 18, 22 , 23 and 25 respectively? I decided at that Christmas I would no longer go back and expose my son and myself to this kind of indifference.
It think it was bludie on another board about her mother sending a letter to manipulate her that it had important information but yet her mother would not share. Whenever someone gives you information that you know is not in your best interest, the question becomes why are they doing this? Recently (less than one week ago) my middle brother shared that my neices and nephews were mocking my child in his mannerisms etc. This was hurtful to me. Why did my brother share this. He has issues with some of my neices and nephews and he shared this to futher build a wedge between my neices and nephews and other brothers. Little does he know that I have no intention of calling him for long while. I also told him this is the reason I do not come home. I feel the neglect and indiffence is abuse I will not tolerate it. Do what you have to do and let the chips fall where they may folks. Much love, patz
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Hi all:
Patz: Even though you are given negative information through sins of ommission or commission by your parents, you must relegate it to being THEIR problem.
And make your own choices about what you will and will not allow into your life.
...trust yourself.
Whenever someone gives you information that you know is not in your best interest, the question becomes why are they doing this?
All great advice Patz.
You sound like you've grown way past your childhood! Above and beyond it! Sorry you had to live through it. Hope things are going much better for you now. Best to you.
GFN
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Your sisters do not have the courage it takes to face life. It takes courage to face life. It is much easier to take the money, it is the path of least resistance.
I resent my mother for using this as a tool to wedge my bond with my sisters. Maybe they wanted what ever kind of connection to my mother they could get. (FEAR of being treated the same)
Most that have met my sisters and meet me say I am very different from all of them. What ever was the differance in our upbringing, 26yrs of little to do with all of them.
I have a disabled son
Patz I may have read in another post about your son. I hope I remembered correctly he is Autistic?
Doesn't matter Just wanted to tip my hats off to you.
I have a friend who's grandson is Autistic.
its such a personal attack, especially your child.
Some people are so insensitive, you wonder how they can be like this.
know how much your sensitivity is shown in your writings on this board. I have truely enjoyed your insights. You have way more class then those who would make such remarks.
He was invisible just as I was
no longer go back and expose my son and myself to this kind of indifference
to speak of an innocent human, then be even more cruel to tell you about the remarks. (wrong)
He should've went back to those that made the remarks and came down hard on them. He should've made you know how much you are loved and your son is loved too.
I also told him this is the reason I do not come home. I feel the neglect and indiffence is abuse I will not tolerate it
Patz, I agree, Why let them ruin your day.
Onlyrenting
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Dear All:
When it comes to our children and their welfare, take no prisoners. Patz
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:( My home computer has problems and I can not sign in. I just read all your posts and I will respond another time. Just a short message that I am still here.
Samantha!
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Hope your pc gets fixed real soon Samantha.
Just thinking about you and wondering how things are going?
GFN
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GFN, thanks. I am fine. The computer is a mess, I can just write something short, because it crashs very often. I wrote two messages and it crashed. I will fix it next week.
Working on a response, but that will take sometimes.
A big hug for you, GFN
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Sam,
Have you backed up your data on the computer? try and restore the computer with the recovery disk. Make sure you have your anti virus loaded, before you get on-line.
Your system crashing could be you need a new Harddrive. You may want to try the other steps on your own first. If you still have a problem, plan on buying a new Hard drive.
The new Hard drive can always be used as a secondary Drive. the worse it could be is a motherboard, May not be worth fixing then.
Good luck onlyrenting
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Hi, everybody!
I am back. Modem was out of order.
Moreover, I moved and I have a new job now. I will write more another time, but I am still out.
Samantha
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Hey!! Yay!!! Sam!!!
Cooool!!! 8) You moved? Away from your father? :shock: Yipee!!! :D
A new job!!! :shock: Congratulations!!! :D Yay again!!! I'm so happy for you!!!
Hope everything gets better and better for you now!!! :D :D
Looking forward to hearing more! :arrow: :arrow:
(((((((Sam)))))))
GFN
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Sam,
Wating to hear the details. Hope all is going great and you are finding the peace you seek.
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Hello GFN, hello onlyrenting, hello Patz, hello all :D
I have a day free, so I can write a little about me. Working currently about 12 hours per day and we do not have internet at work (this is really shitty). I moved to my bfriend, yes far away from my father, but unfortunately because of visareasons I had to leave my son in Germany. The job is only an internship for 6 months. But bfriend and I are looking for another job and then we can get another visa and can go and get son. Then the big movement can happen. Meanwhile I stored my stuff. We are in another country, so things a little more harder.
And still so much to do. I recognized being away from my parents is the only possible way to heal and to get over the whole thing. To much time wasted, so much energie. When I even think about my father, my stomach gets sick. I am feeling bad and I have feeling like beating him or killing him and then be satisfied. (of course I do not do it).
I figured out something more. I had here trouble with an N at work, but cleared that asap and now the N is out of my office. Things with Ns have to get cleared up asap otherwise it can take forever. So I figured out that the whole hate on my parents is, because that is all going so long. If I would have left when I finished school, it would be easier. Much less post-traumatic reaction and so on.
The best is to leave Ns asap. That is the best way. Everything else, no solution, the opposite: the suffering will take longer.
Seeing that with BB, I guess it would have been much easier if she would have left her husband much much earlier. If we getting to the state that we start to feel so angry about people, like in the case of my father, that is so bad for our body and our soul. It is just bad. Because of many things in Germany, I could not leave about for 7 years. Now I know the only way in my case is a very limited contact and the bestno contact at all. Everything else will just bring bad memories or will worsen the situation.
So here, I am fighting myself though that whole thing. At least I am healthy and I do not have to pay any obligations back. In never went into criminal or illegal things in my life, so I have a neutral starter. I have a good education which I will and have to improve (I have to learn more languages).
That as far as now. Love to all of you. Glad that you are there. :lol:
Samantha! :wink:
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hi samantha and all..... :} i guess you dont know me but im so glad you were able to move and find a better place. it was very interesting to see this thread today becuase it had so much to do with anger which i was thinking about quite a bit today.
i do want to say, that i can empathise with betty broderick, on a certain level. i do think that she went over the edge and could have made better choices on that account. there is no excuse for killing anyone, and reflects extremely poor decision making on her part. (at least) but, i must comment, that facing someone very similar, a doctor, a very rich person, a very good liar, someone that almost everyone tends to 'believe' without question, can be enormously frustrating. (and she was dealing with a -lawyer-!)
there have been times, when i have sat in my house and truly thought that violence was going to be the only solution.. and those times have been, when i realized that not only was this person going to 'win' and that -everybody- that mattered believed -them-.... and not me..... but that -society- was not going to help me..... the -police- were not going to help me...... and worse yet..... the legal system, our supposed last bastion of freedom and truth in america, where all are equal under the law, was not even coming close to going to help me.......
i realize the original post was made from germany and things may be slightly different legal-wise. however, in 'america' there is supposed to be an expectation of equal protection under the law. its a myth we are brought up believing in as though it were true.
no matter -who- you are, you are 'supposed' to be equal under the law, and able to get the protection of the law, when you need it.
when you realize that is a myth - when you realize that the 'law' is not only abandoning you but actually aiding and abetting your abuser - and that there isnt a damn thing you can do about it - it can be a -very- horrible thing to know. you lose faith in a whole lot of very big things at once.
it can be something that can make you feel as though there is really nobody that will ever hear you. at that point, you can seriously get to a point where you feel as though totally losing it is the only answer. i dont think it is of course. its a choice made out of desparation and lack of creativity. however, i have been where she was at. and it happens when you realize, that there is -noone- to protect you. noone and nothing.
i do have to say, its a very bad feeling and i have known where she was at.
interesting thread to come up today. glad you are 'out' samantha - total disengagement as much as possible is i think the way to go.
take care, thanks for the thread :}
d's mom
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Hi d's mom,
I think Charles Dickens said it best.
"The law is a ass."
mudpuppy
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D's mum,
I am sorry that you were in the same situation or in a simlar situation like Betty. I have made exactly the same experience none in the society was helpful. Helpful was this board.
Let me assure you that the law in Germany is similar to the law in the US.
i do have to say, its a very bad feeling and i have known where she was at.
Be happy that you did not what she did, because at times it is hard not to do it.
Peace and a hug,
Samantha!
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Hi Sam:
Just a little note to let you know that I am glad you are away from your father and things are looking up. That's fantastic!
How about your son? Will it be long before you can bring him with you? Is he with a friend or relative?
Thinking of you and will say a special prayer for you and your son tonight!
GFN
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Hi Sam,
So gald to hear your good news. Wanted to say you are in my prayers. I hope you can make it into your sons arms before too long. Take care
You know how to pick out the N's, taking quick action with them is the right move. I look for them too. I'm thinking I'm almost spooked thinking if I see one I would run so fast (in my head) no one could imagine just how fast I would be running.
I started a new job too. I'm living with my Daughter in Dallas, waiting for my Divorce papers. (the papers are waiting for me to pick them up at the post office as certified mail)
OR.
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Hi my dear friends, hi GFN, hi OR,
Thanks for your great posts. Yes, things are going a little up. Still, a lot of work. Tomorrow I going to Germany for a week and then I can spent some time with my son. Actually, I hate to be seperate from my son, what what can I do? Germany is no option because of the bad economic situation and better to have a hard time now then suffering later and myabe have to give son to foster parents. Yes, but I am looking for a solution what to do. Actually, I have some very rich clients and maybe they can borrow me some money. If I am continue to work that hard, I can easlily pay that back, but then I have starter money and the situation will be less stressful. As far as now I have no obligations so it is possible.
Thanks for the prayer, GFN, I felt it came to tonight!
Hi, OR, how are you doing? Thank you for being in your prayer that feels safe and good.
You know how to pick out the N's, taking quick action with them is the right move. I look for them too. I'm thinking I'm almost spooked thinking if I see one I would run so fast (in my head) no one could imagine just how fast I would be running.
Yeah, like a permanent sprint traing in the brain. I am doing similar. I guess after together with an N for longer time that comes naturally.
I started a new job too. I'm living with my Daughter in Dallas, waiting for my Divorce papers. (the papers are waiting for me to pick them up at the post office as certified mail)
Hey, that is great. How is Dallas? How is the new job? That sounds so good.
A big kiss to both you, my dear friends.
Greeting from the Swiss,
Samantha!
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I would like to add something to this topic.
Now that I am about 800 km far away from my parents and I ak working again things are fading. Ok, things are not solved, I need after that internship another job and I have to get my son here.
My mother more and more becomes meaningless to me. She was no help, ruined a lot of things in my life and she is no part of my life anymore. She does not bother me anymore. I am glad if things are solved and I will be glad the day she dies. But not having her in my life anymore is also very good.
My father the pathological liar is the same, always if I hear him and see him, I am mostly getting easily upset. The only thing is to limited contact and to move far away and to get another support system. That all for sure.
Also, wise to make good money and be independent.
Betty, should tried to get as much money as possible from her husband and then leave and build up her own life.
I had or have an awful N at work and I kind of solved that luckily. Ns are really a P... in the A..
Distance that is very important. And a limitation of contact. Ns will never change or give up.
Nice sunday for all.
Samantha!
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Hi Sam, Being far away for the N-s in your life is the only way to move on to a calmer life. I love Dallas and our daughter is making lots of friends.
I wish you the best in getting your son back home with you.
I can sleep at night knowing my H is 1500 mil away. (3days)
but the internet allows him to write me his horrible comments anytime he wants. I save all his e-mails .
He has lied to the courts about a settlement he received and I learned once I got to Dallas he already received the money. This explained so much because he would tell me he wanted to move to Dallas without our daughter and me, he wanted to move by himself. His brother told him no way, he would let him come to dallas without his family.
When that didn't work he told me to go but at the last minute said he wanted to have our Daughter stay with him. (he was getting monthly payments for her ) it's all about the money. When he told me if I went to Dallas he would shoot me then himself, I let the police know about it.
He said he was walking in his sleep.
The N in him came out full force with the Idea of money. He told the courts he makes only 700 a month so it will look bad on taking custody. He wants me to pay for everything, Support, divorce etc. I never knew about the SSI money or the settlement money. We are gone now and he has his money all to himself, but wants any money he can get out of me too. What a jerk.
Money and greed, who cares about being fair.
This is not over and I want him to answer for his lies to the Judge.
Im looking for a lawyer in CA, but can't afford one at this time.
I will be expecting mediation to resolve some rights for visitation and how the custody battle with go.
Good to hear from you take care Sam, ......OR
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Hi OR,
yes good that you moved and that your daughter is making so much friends! I am happy for you.
Yes, I takes time to get out of Ns and to solve the issues with them. I wish you good luck with the customy battle.
With Ns never ever easy and the only way is to get out and to survive.
Big Hug, San