Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Screamer on February 08, 2005, 12:15:17 PM
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Hello,
I have not posted here for a while. I have not spoken to my N mother for two years. It has been great to just have some peace for a change. Things seemed to get better for me after I finally cut off relations.
My husband is great and our relationship has had time to deepen. We are planning to have children and have started the process. We moved to a bigger place to accomodate a nursery and I even got a promotion and started back to school for my masters.
I was also diagnosed with Diabetes. I feel that I would not have been able to deal with it well if she had been in my life. It was hard enough as it was.
I don't think I would have made the progress in my life that I have in the last two years if I was still devoting so much of my energy to dealing with my mother.
Yesterday she sent me an e-mail. Here it is:
I am really missing you a lot today. Can’t hold back the tears. On February 14th it will be exactly 2 years since I have heard your voice. I miss you too much.
I am writing a letter to both you and Franco to help you understand the backdrop of what was happening during your childhood. The letter gets longer and longer and I don’t know when I will finish it. But whenever that is, I hope you will take the time to read it. I will also always have a copy in my lock box at the bank. This letter will be for only yours and Franco’s eyes unless to choose to share it.
I love you more than you could ever know.
What surprises me is that she (and my brother) still think this is about my childhood. Yes, my dad was severly abusive. Yes, she knew about some of it (maybe not the sexual abuse... I'm not sure). But this is about how she treats me TODAY!
It makes it so easy for them to say... "she is just crazy", "she needs professional help", "she can't get over what happened." This way my mother never has to look at how she is treating me. She can simply believe it is all my problem, all in my head.
I sent her back a note saying that this was not about my childhood and I preferred that she did NOT send me this letter.
Am I being very very cold? I feel bad that she is sad, but I can't live like that any more.
I have decided that after I have the baby I will open the door for her to be part of my child's life. However, this will be contingent on some very clear ground rules. She has never respected my boundaries... we'll see if that changes when I have a baby.
Thanks for listening... all comments and advice would be greatly appreciated.
Screamer.
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Screamer: could you just tell her this (that you wrote):
" I feel bad that she is (you are) sad, but I can't live like that any more. "
Ball's in her court....you are proactively taking care of yourself and expressing empathy for her, without taking responsibility for her feelings, which are hers alone. You can love her without taking her pain for her.
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I really need to practice this type of communication with her. For now it has just been better to keep my distance.
However, after I have the baby and attempt to reintegrate her into my life, I will take your advice! You are right, I have to take care of myself without having to own or be responsible for her feelings as well.
Thank you!
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Dear Screaming,
Your situationm is so much like my own. My mother is also known for her letter writing ability and I'm sure her pain is real. However we all know the real issue/s are never addressed. I received several of the same compassionate, fatalistic letters like yours here. I simply replied consistantly and on the same point - I hope that you get the courage to get the long-overdue help that you need. N's are quite used to their victims succumbing to their persistance. One letter I actually relented a bit and responded favourably to only to immediately hear from many relatives, congratulating me for finally getting over whatever my problem was. These happened to be members of her own immediate family who are also N's and are or choose to be as cluesless as she. The most difficult decision for my wife and I was how to mange her persistence after the birth of our first child 7 months ago. I have responded to her e-mails with the same position - recognize why you have relationship problems and deal with that - we'll be here at that time and at that time only. She continues to solicit support from others and continues to angle back into the "close" relationship we once had (?) I ghaven't had a meaningful exchange with her my entire life. She doesn't even know me or her other children - they've always been there to serve her needs. I hope this resonates with you and that you can continue to be strong with respect to her denial. I have recently come to realize that she may never change and that is sad however I just cannot pretend that I have anything but fear of her. That is how she's controlled people her entire life - fear of her.
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Hi Screamer,
I'm wondering if you could explain some of the boundary issues you have with your N mother. I am working on "boundaries" right now with my therapist, and am sort of confused about it. An example I could give is the next time my Nmother starts talking to me in gory detail about her sex life, I could say (in a funny way so as not to provoke anger) "Whoah! My TMI buzzer is going off! TMI means "too much information" mom."
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Screamer,Jondo,Gwen:
I kept uttering ick, yuck and ugh reading your posts. I was lucky enough to be able to divorce my N, so I can't really imagine having one for a parent. Your thread title really does sum it up, Screamer. They just don't get it.
My children are now in the position of learning how to deal with their N dad. My daughter (after terse phone call from dad today) said : "well, clearly dad is mad again" (me: what makes you say that?) "well, because I am still with you on "his time" (her choice, homework related), "but you know, he'll just have to deal with it, it's not my problem."
Maybe because I left the guy, and am healing myself, she is learning in her teen years what takes most half a lifetime. Crossing fingers!
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Gwyn: (sorry for the Gwen)
My daughter says "OVERSHARE!" if anyone gives her info she would rather not have.... but I am her mom and very secure with our relationship....if she has used that innapropriately I can call her on it, etc. but I don't get upset about it, I mean she is 13.
I think humor is an awesome way for YOU to deal with boundaries, but my exN could turn those tables so fast on me, I would be gasping for air for days. Maybe other N's are like that too.
Keeping it with how you feel about it (I statements as opposed to judgement statements) is very smart, so I think you have that covered.
Sarcasm is a very interesting type of humor....very tricky as it usually comes with underlying defensiveness, meanness and negativity. I think it is "funny" because irony and insincerety is involved....but that can also be a double edged sword....and it is a sword.
I know from teaching that I can only use sarcasm when I have a solid, respectful relationship with a kid/s already and it is mostly self-effacing.
ex:"yeah, I know you guys are dissapointed I am not absent again, today"....or "nice one, Ms. X" (when I goof up).
My ex uses sarcasm all the time, and specifically to hurt others (so they don't get him first I suppose?) and maybe since he considered it his territory he could turn it on me instantly. The kids tell me he has several degrading names for his current wife....but just for fun, right? Nice.
Just some rambling thoughts on sarcasm. It is interesting to look at.
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I
am really missing you a lot today. Can’t hold back the tears. On February 14th it will be exactly 2 years since I have heard your voice. I miss you too much.
I am writing a letter to both you and Franco to help you understand the backdrop of what was happening during your childhood. The letter gets longer and longer and I don’t know when I will finish it. But whenever that is, I hope you will take the time to read it. I will also always have a copy in my lock box at the bank. This letter will be for only yours and Franco’s eyes unless to choose to share it.
I love you more than you could ever know.
Hi Screamer. I saw your mom’s email and thought mine could have written it. She sends you this after two years? Have you had any contact in that time?
It’s incredible how it really is all about her. Does she enquire as to how you are?
The whole thing shouts of enmeshment, emotional incest, abusive manipulation. Is it a horrible coincidence that 14th is valentines? “I miss you too much” – too much? Is she going to die of a broken heart if she never sees you again? I don’t think so. Has she tried to telephone you in two years? If not, heck then it’s her fault she hasn’t heard your voice. It’s her problem, not yours.
“To help you understand” – because you obviously don’t understand do you? (This gets my back up, the implication that you can’t possibly understand fully: why not? Because only she knows the truth? Because only she is ‘right’? Rubbish.)
No doubt she sees herself as completely innocent of anything, including responsibility for your welfare. No doubt she’s written some letter about how it wasn’t her fault. Can she take responsibility for anything? Can she say ‘Sorry’ and mean it?
“I don’t know when I will finish it” I’m surprised she didn’t say IF she will finish it! This says – ‘so come and see me or you may never know’ or even ‘I might die before I finish it’. But she might be afraid of death, so she then brushes that aside ‘but whenever that is’. Big deal. Who cares.
“I hope you will take the time to read it” because you’re so ungrateful and unloving you just might not bother to read it? Give me a break! :evil: Just lay some more guilt-trip down! Do you feel guilty at all Screamer? You’re supposed to, that’s the big intention here. Loads of guilt!
“have a copy in my lock box at the bank” ah back to death again. Poor me, I could die and you need to know where this most important thing is so that I can make you feel guilty and exonerate myself from the grave. Control and manipulation. Delusions of grandeur.
“I love you more than you could ever know”. Bullshit. This is always bullshit. People try and tell you what’s in your head, they know better than you do about what you think, feel or ‘know’.
Gosh Screamer. Maybe you should have written back and said “So who asked you about YOUR day mother? Wanna hear abut MY problems for a change?”.
Sorry I got just a bit wound up :x reading your mom's email there.
The least contact the better I think. If you haven’t had contact for two years, it’s easier to feel pity for those who have abused us (and your mother abused you by not stopping your father). Distance and time have the effect of minimising their awfulness. Unfortunately people like our mothers tend to get worse with time, not better. If you want her back in your life, please prepare yourself. Personally I wouldn’t want my mother near any child of mine – and I don’t have children! :? Take care.
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Screamer, thoughts about you
I sent her back a note saying that this was not about my childhood and I preferred that she did NOT send me this letter.
What will you say if she asks: "what is it about then?" Would you tell her?
I have decided that after I have the baby I will open the door for her to be part of my child's life.
May I ask...why? Why would you want to do this?
Luego
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To Mum: I didn't realize what I was thinking of saying was sarcastic.... I guess I won't say "TMI means too much information" unless she seems to not know what it means...
To Screamer and Luego: No, they CANNOT say they are sorry and really mean it. Actually, they DO mean it, but what they are sorry for is THEMSELVES - sorry at how hard their life has been and how they had the "burden" of "caring for us" during all the difficulties, sorry that we "can't understand" their point of view. I can't tell you how many times I've heard from my Nmother the theme represented by the statement in Screamer's mother's note: "to help you understand the backdrop of what was happening in your childhood." How many times I've heard, "Well I'm sorry, BUT my father was an alcoholic, your father didn't send child support, etc. etc and so on." No, they CANNOT take responsibility for anything, so they expect us to take full responsibility for ourselves AND THEM! OK - I got a little worked up after reading Luego's worked-up post :-)
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Gwyn: Actually I think because you are coming from an "I" position with humor, you have it covered (the hurtful sarcasm isn't there).
I guess it just got me started on where sarcasm has and hasn't worked in my life, that's all. My issue, not yours. You are the one who knows the situation and it's your relationship, not mine. Trust yourself to do what's right at the time, and if it doesn't, well, remember, "they just don't get it" anyway.
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Gwyn:
"Well I'm sorry, BUT my father was an alcoholic, your father didn't send child support, etc. etc and so on."
An excuse or explanation is NOT an apology eh? :( Sheesh, I know.
It's okay to feel sad, sadness is where we rest and we can't expect to lose that particular sadness...and pity for them, sympathy for them as people is okay - but not at our expense. We have to live too :) somewhat calmed down :roll: ....Luego
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Dear Screaming,
Your situationm is so much like my own. My mother is also known for her letter writing ability and I'm sure her pain is real... The most difficult decision for my wife and I was how to mange her persistence after the birth of our first child 7 months ago.
It sounds like you are doing very well in managing this. It is so difficult to deal with an N who just won't leave you alone.
I wonder how much worse things will get when I have a baby.
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Luego,
Thanks for responding! If felt some of the same things that you mentioned as I read the letter. I often wonder if its just me. Am I being too hard on her?? It is so validating to hear that people who have had similar experiences see the same things within these letters.
You asked... "Is it a horrible coincidence that 14th is valentines?" The last time she heard from me was actually in January of 2003. She either pulled this date out of her ass or strategically picked it to elicit an emotional response. Which one do you think it is??
Screamer[/quote]
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Oh - um - Screamer: "strategically picked it to elicit an emotional response" - interesting and worrying!
With mine, the facts (like actual dates and events) are irrelevant to her statements. She seems to state things which are about her internal fantasy world, and which bear no relation to what actually happens. She says things which make me gasp with wonder - strange ideas, like she intends to do something which she is not equipped to do (like go on a skiing holiday with a broken leg, as though the leg isn't broken).
I don't imagine the 14th is strategically picked as such - it's her expression of some warped ideas of 'love' and 'emotion' in her mind. I'd go as far to say she's confusing her relationship to you with her life's love relationships. This really isn't about the real you at all and it's very sad. (Maybe she's even acting out some other relationship, via you?? I think my mother has seen me as my father at times.)
I say relationship to you, not with you, because that's what I see in her email. She doesn't relate to the real you at all, she relates to some fantasy reality she has. The fact that you can say - it wasn't 14th Feb, it was January - blows her fantasy apart and proves that what she says doesn't take the real you into account at all. Of course if you told her this - about the date being wrong - I guess she would just brush it aside as not mattering?
I could be way off the mark here, so please have a pinch of salt and note that this is about mine, as much as yours.
Another thought, I wonder if that email needed any response at all from you? It's so one-way. Do you think she would have followed it up if you didn't reply? And has she replied to you? take care L
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PS. Are you being too hard on her? No. What you think is in your head and you are free to think whatever you wish. You can entertain the most outrageous, hurtful thoughts, it does us good sometimes to be really hateful in our heads!
Actions are what we're responsible for. I wonder what she made of your reply: she may not have understood it! She may have thought "Here I am, trying to tell My Story, my way and my daughter thinks I'm talking about her!". I think she's trying to impose her fantasy on the cruel external world and it doesn't work. So she's probably just confused by your reply? Maybe? But you're standing up for your reality and that's a healthy action. L
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PS. Are you being too hard on her? No. What you think is in your head and you are free to think whatever you wish. You can entertain the most outrageous, hurtful thoughts, it does us good sometimes to be really hateful in our heads!
Actions are what we're responsible for. I wonder what she made of your reply: she may not have understood it! She may have thought "Here I am, trying to tell My Story, my way and my daughter thinks I'm talking about her!". I think she's trying to impose her fantasy on the cruel external world and it doesn't work. So she's probably just confused by your reply? Maybe? But you're standing up for your reality and that's a healthy action. L
It might have been better if I did not reply at all. That is usually the best way to deal with her.
Thank you for resonding!
Screamer
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With mine, the facts (like actual dates and events) are irrelevant to her statements. She seems to state things which are about her internal fantasy world, and which bear no relation to what actually happens. She says things which make me gasp with wonder - strange ideas, like she intends to do something which she is not equipped to do (like go on a skiing holiday with a broken leg, as though the leg isn't broken).
I don't imagine the 14th is strategically picked as such - it's her expression of some warped ideas of 'love' and 'emotion' in her mind. I'd go as far to say she's confusing her relationship to you with her life's love relationships. This really isn't about the real you at all and it's very sad. (Maybe she's even acting out some other relationship, via you?? I think my mother has seen me as my father at times.)
Luego,
You may be right. She does seem to live in a fantasy world. It is very often that she tells me that I dreamed some event, or that the event never happened. Or even completely rewrite the event all together.
Sometimes it makes me think I'm really the crazy one.
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With mine, the facts (like actual dates and events) are irrelevant to her statements. She seems to state things which are about her internal fantasy world, and which bear no relation to what actually happens. She says things which make me gasp with wonder - strange ideas, like she intends to do something which she is not equipped to do (like go on a skiing holiday with a broken leg, as though the leg isn't broken).
I don't imagine the 14th is strategically picked as such - it's her expression of some warped ideas of 'love' and 'emotion' in her mind. I'd go as far to say she's confusing her relationship to you with her life's love relationships. This really isn't about the real you at all and it's very sad. (Maybe she's even acting out some other relationship, via you?? I think my mother has seen me as my father at times.)
Luego,
You may be right. She does seem to live in a fantasy world. It is very often that she tells me that I dreamed some event, or that the event never happened. Or even completely rewrite the event all together.
Sometimes it makes me think I'm really the crazy one.
Guest, I feel the same way. I KNOW that my wife has a serious problem reverting to denial and even understand many of the childhood causes with her mother that lead her to that. Her main response is "That didn't happen!" when I try to discuss something with her. When she says that, it pushes my buttons every single time! I start questioning all over again whether maybe I really am insane and just too insane to realize it. I hate it. The good news is that I'm getting a lot better and faster at retracing my mental steps and the conclusion is always the same. That its way easier to believe that she is saying the same unconnected thing each time like a tape recorder, than me hallucinating something different for each situation. I am working to indentify and work through my issues that are being triggered here so I don't react so strongly when it happens. However, I recognize that I cannot be emotionally safe around her.
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Screamer,
I think you may want to really consider whether you want your mother in your life once your child is born. For years I had nothing but a superficial with my parents. Everything was always about them. My mom was always talking about the latest thing she bought or whatever. If I went to say anything about my life in the middle of a sentence she would just break in not responding to what I was saying but instead going on about her life. When I became pregnant (at the age of 38 ) all of a sudden she was interested in my life and I allowed us to get close. After a few years it was all back to about her and she has attempted to reck havic in my families life, my father supports her in this. We have chosen now not to have any contact with them. It would have been easier on us and our child if we hadn't really developed a relationship with them when I was pregnant. My child is handling it pretty well (she is now 6 and it has been almost a year since we've had contact, that is except for the email now and then which I don't respond to) but it still is hard on her having had them in her life and now out of her life. My daughter did witness some of the crazyness and we are using this as a learning opportunity that even though we may care about someone and love someone sometimes it is necessary not to have them in your life.
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Dear guest before this post,
I am interested to know more about your situation. How did you sever the relationship with your parents? Was it by way of discussion, in writing or just silence? That is the dilema of many N children. Could you please elaborate? Thanks much
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jondo,
Well things had been going bad for about 2 years, we don't live close to each other. I did live close to them until I was married and moved far, far away (I married someone from Europe), but we regularly spent time with each other on the phone, email and extended visits to each other. Really for the first four years things went VERY well, remember for at least 10 years before this I only had a superficial relationship with them, my parents didn't know much of anything that was going on in my life. During those 10 or so years I saw them once or twice a month for a few hours each time. I didn't try to talk about my life and just listened about their life. Well after four years of having a real relationship the BS started again which had initially caused me in the first place to stop even trying to have a real relationship with them. This time I confronted my mom during each incident of BS (which there was about a dozen of them over the two years) instead of just emotionally withdrawing from the relationship which is pretty much what I had done 14 or so years earlier (which is now 17 years ago and there was an incident at that time which instigated my emotional withdrawing).
So about a year ago there was an incident while they were visiting us, well there was a couple but this was the final, and this one my father also was involved in with his BS, and my father suggested that we didn't see each other anymore. We told them we didn't think this was the way to handle it, that we thought we needed to work out our problems, but if they were not willing to work out the problems then that would have to be the way it would be. After my mom was home for a month she called me like nothing ever happened and I let her know that I was interested in talking to her like nothing ever happened and if she wanted to have a relationship we would have to try to work things out. We then wrote an email to my father (saying we would have to work things out or not have anything to do with each other like HE SUGGESTED and that he might want to really think if this was going to make his wife happy and the ramifications then to himself). He wrote back saying it wasn't his problem and when we decided we didn't have a problem with them any longer to contact them. Of course about a month later my mom calls again acting like nothing ever happened and I told her I did not want to talk to her on the phone and if she had anything to say to me to write me an email. She also wanted to speak to my child which I told her I wasn't going to allow her to.
A few days later I wrote her an email saying that they needed to decide what they wanted, if they didn't want to have anything to do with us THEN LEAVE US ALONE. If they were interested in having a relationship they were going to have to decide if they wanted a superficial one or one like we had had earlier for four years. If they wanted any kind of relationship there were things that would have to be worked out. Well she sent an email back saying they wanted to work things out and they wanted to have a close relationship again. We exchanged a few emails and it became just the same BS. The final email from her was something about what a terrible daughter I was and she wasn't going to allow herself to be treated like this anymore and she hopes that someday when my daughter grew up that someone lets her know that it wasn't them that kept them from seeing her and that I needed to get outside help. Well that outside help was something that she threw at me a lot, about a year and a half earlier she told me I needed to go see a psychologist. When I was in my early 20's I did see a couple psychologists, they were working together and I went with my first husband. They did all kinds of tests on us and talked to us quite a bit over a three month period and determined that there was nothing wrong with me and that my then husband needed extended therapy. About a year or so later my then husband and I parted ways on good terms, we had no children. My mother was quite aware of that, also my current husband and I saw a psychiatrist for a short time because we have custody of his two boys who were teenagers when we got married and his mother was interfering in our raising of our children and it was causing us problems. We worked through that very quickly and my mother was also aware of that. So I sent her back an email saying that she didn't have to worry because we had already told our daughter that WE were not allowing her grandparents to have contact with her and that it was our opinion that she was the one who needs "outside help".
Well awhile later she sent a birthday card to my daughter with a check in it. A few days after her birthday she wrote me an email asking if I had given it to her. I said yes (my husband read it to her the night of her birthday when he put her to bed and she asked him not to leave it in her room). I told my mother that we told her we would take her out and buy her some boats because of the check that was in the card, which we did but we didn't cash the check. Then about a month before Christmas she emailed me if it was OK if she put some money in my account to buy our daughter Christmas presents with, I already had the presents that she had bought for the boys (who are now 21 and 22) when my parents had visited here last time. She had bought them then because we (me, my husband and daughter) were supposed to go spend this past Christmas with them at their house, which was not going to happen. I told her that we felt uncomfortable about it and that we were going to make an appointment with our psychiatrist to talk about it and we would let her know. Well less than two weeks later I get an email with her wanting to know what's going on, BUT her computer isn't really working too good she wrote. I had already talked with the psychiatrist once and had another appointment set up and had not really come to a decision but was leaning against taking money from them for our daughter. I was thinking if she was smart she would have bought some presents for her and sent them to her instead of playing these little games. Anyways I called her up and told her that I had another appointment and had not decided but was leaning against it. She started in with her BS in which I was stern and countered it firmly, I also told her that if she wanted to talk to our psychiatrist that it probably could be arranged. She ended up hanging up saying she wasn't going to be treated like this. About a week later I sent her an email that was a few paragraphs summing up things from our end and thought I made it pretty clear that we didn't want her money. A little more than a week later she sent me another email asking if we had made up our mind about the money and asking if we were going to give the boys the gifts that were here that she had bought them, I guess I wasn't clear enough so I sent another email simply saying that we didn't want her money and we would give the boys the gifts that were already here. In the meantime we had talked to our daughter and explained things, she did not want the money and THEN we told her we would buy extra presents for her this year to make up for it and because her brothers got extra presents from grandma and grandpa. Our daughter was fine with that.
About a month ago I got a call from her saying she had just came back from the doctor and her cancer had come back. That she probably will decide not to have surgery and probably will have chemotherapy which will probably let her live for two more years and if she does nothing she will probably die in six months or so. Over four years ago (about a year and a half before the BS started) she had cancer and had surgery and radiation. It was never actually located but was in her throat area and she had many lymph nodes removed. She was a heavy smoker and continues to smoke. At this time my phone connection was not working good and I could hardly hear her or her me. I told her I was sorry to hear that and then she said she was too upset right now to talk, she had just gotten back from the doctor and if I wanted to talk to her sometime to give her a call. Well I just don't really want to talk to her, yes I feel sorry for her, however this does not change things. Hey I've felt sorry for her my whole life, the first memory I have is from when I was 5 or 6 and it is of her beating me with a brush until the brush broke with the handle left in her hand and the other piece flung up about 10 feet hitting the wall (we were in a stairwell) and I remember thinking then what a poor sick lady, what has happened in your life to bring you to this point. I wasn't even crying and I just looked at her like I felt sorry for her and was confused (my feelings), I don't know what she was thinking about the look I gave her but she never really hit me again after that. Although in the past couple years she did threatened to and I gave her a look that could kill and I told her to go ahead, I think she got it that she wasn't going to intimidate me with that.
Well a couple weeks ago it was my birthday and I got an email from my mom saying she couldn't let the day go by without wishing me a HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! I didn't let it ruin my day, luckily I didn't get it till late in the afternoon. I read through it quickly and CHOSE not to think about it that day. The next day I did think about it and was thinking I would have rather not have gotten it, it did not make me feel good, I hoped she got pleasure out of it because I sure did not and then I chose to just not respond to it. So I imagine that she will continue to contact me. I've already decided that as far as her illness and death I chose not to be there for her and that's what I will tell her if need be. Last time they were here after my father said that we ought to not see each other he actually told my husband that this would not end till my mother died. This statement bothered both my husband and me. My father feeds into her BS and I hate to tell him that once she is dead if he thinks he is just going to pick up with a relationship with us he is sadly mistaken. Well that was quite long and probably to detailed, hope it helps.
LM
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Screamer--
I'm afraid I might have instigated some of your worrying with my post on an earlier thread implying your mom might be trying to reach out to you. I'm really sorry about that! I am in a very similar stage as you now with my parents (although we interact a little more, at least my mom and I do), including starting a family and trying to figure out how everything figures in.
And I think I secretly want to believe that they are going to reach out to me and we'll move beyond everything.
A couple of months ago, I tried to start communicating with my parents about what I assumed they also knew was really not a very good childhood. I also told them some things they didn't know had happened, including a sexual molestation that I feel was the result of neglectful behavior on their part. They completely dismissed me. They told me they would "go with you to get professional help." They denied everything negative I said. And, most oddly, listed all of the stuff they had done for me when I was a child. They asked what they could do to repair the relationship, in exactly the same sort of pretend-loving tone I see in your mom's letter. They said they would do anything! Anything!
So, I wrote back that what I would like is for one or both of them to go to therapy. Separately, together, whatever. They have never been and I have and it would help us if we ever want to go together. There's no sense going together if they haven't worked anything out on their own. [And of course I was testing them to see if by "go with you to get professional help" they meant "explain to the therapist that we are fabulous and she is crazy."]
What I got was the world's biggest dismissal. I should publish it in the narcissists' hall of fame. Some of the phrases were "we are happy in our life. We hope someday you can be happy in your life" and "we are not the ones who need help" and "we have nothing that we regret, either in the past or in the present." (Remember that I had just told them that their actions led to my being molested).
All of which is a long-winded way of saying that I see now that your mom's letter was a house of cards. If you wrote or called and let her know what you really need or want from her, it would (and did) fall apart. Everything is on her terms, which means that no communication can happen. I guess I can't help but want one more try, because it is so hard to accept that people are lost causes. But I should know better!
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I want to start by addressing the title you gave your original post - "she doesn't get it". That is so important to me because it capsulates the dunamic that many N children struggle with. What I came to understand after years of therapy is this - If they don't get it - it's not my problem. More importantly, it's not my problem to defend my position and convince them of anything. That is the ultimate position to have with an N. I haven't read any of your earlier threads so I don't know what you mean by incidents and BS. I'd like to know if she's as delusional as my mother. Regarding your details (thanks) I want to tell you that my situation is nearly exact to yours. Including the father that goes along with her (mine simply fears her and is spineless), the many years of strained, superficial relations (no meaningful contact, I literally have not/can't look either of them in the eye and I don't think I have since I was 12. I have never had a relationship with either of them my entire life and theydon't know me. Yet she wants to continue with our "close" relationship as though when I'm ready, I'll get over whatever my problem is. This is the bizarre dynamic that many of these N parents saddle their children with. It's the ultimate in child abuse in my opinion. Also, the calls weeks later as though nothing preceded it. N's are very accustomed to people (especially their own children) not having the courage to oppose them. Also similar is the money - she sends myself and other siblings presents and money that go uncashed or unused and not responded to. (3 of her 4 children do not speak to her!) One would think that is evidence enough that she needs to change in some way however she maintains to her circle of people who don't know her, that 'nobody" can figure out what their problem is. She promotes to anybody who will listen that she was the best mother and had the closest of relationships with them etc. This is 100% opposite to the truth and reality that I simply quit talking to her when I was 12. Anyway, present day situation is this - We have our first child now and she has tried to get our "relationship back this past year, in the usual way that you describe. I simply tell her (e-mail, to get the help she needs and remind her of her relationship problems and encourage her to get help and we will be here when, and only if, she gets help. Here's the real amazing thing (delusional). She promotes to others that she has apologized to her children for "whatever" she's done and can do nothing but wait until we get the therapy we need to figure out "our" problems are,taking responsibility for ourselves and move on - as she's done (?!) It is so frustrating that your own parent can cause so much damage to their own children isn't it. Also, she is starting with the health problems and death. She's been a hypochondriac her entire life and has used her health crisies to get attention. All of her kids including me spent our entire lives at the doctors and hospitals. I understood when I was 5 that it was for the purpose of her spending hours on the phone informing people of the latest thing she's had to endure as the amazing mother she is. I wanted to say that I still find it amazing that there are other people out there that have had similar experiences. I truly thought I did have some kind of problem until I understood this N sickness. That was the happiest day of my life. In fact it has been included in my last few reply's/rejections to her contact - a link to the Voicelessness website and the suggestion that she get the help she needs. That is the extent of our relationship and that is all she deserves. Thanks for your words.
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Jondo,
She promotes to others that she has apologized to her children for "whatever" she's done and can do nothing but wait until we get the therapy we need to figure out "our" problems are,taking responsibility for ourselves and move on - as she's done (?!) It is so frustrating that your own parent can cause so much damage to their own children isn't it.
Yep. I love that. :evil: "I've done my therapy work and it's not my fault so the blame is with you!"
This attitude gets everywhere including here sometimes! (- not this thread, okay). It makes me ILL!! Bleurgh... :P
Please deliver us from false people who fling psych terms around as though they understand. Anyone who insists that all the problem, absolutely all of it, is someone else's responsibilility or fault - hasn't got a clue. Am I venting? Yeah. I'll stop. Commiserations Jondo. Portia
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Absolutely. Depending on how severe the lying/delusion is - there are know limits to claims or references. My mother tells all that she's seen "the best therapist in the country" (It's always the best or worst with N's - depending on which has more impact) They literally craft and manipulte everything. She considers this a talent and other people's lacking or weakness - they're just stupid. Anyway, I spent many years trying to untangle her lies and misrepresentations (that all were for her gain of reputation/image) at the cost of her children having to look at the flor and pretend along (invisible). Now there is no more pretending. She's on her own to find answers - I don't supply her the answers she wants/needs.
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jondo,
I think the post from you a few posts back is to me (LM) and I am not the originator of this thread (Screamer is the originator) so I did not come up with the title of "She doesn't get it." Although like you I think it is such an appropriate title concerning such persons. This is now only my third post on this board so there isn't any other threads with further detail.
jondo you are right in the end (since we are now adults) it isn't really our problem unless we allow it to be our problem. It's interesting that when I sent the email back to my dad after he said that it wasn't his problem and we should contact them when we decided we didn't have a problem with them anymore (I forgot to include in my last post my response to him after that email) that my response to him was that he was right that according to them it had always been my problem and not theirs and that I was taking care of my problem which is that it has always been my problem and not my parents problem. I then added that they could blame me all they had to, to live with themselves.
As far as the apologizing, I don't think my mother has ever apologized for anything in her life. Part of the first incident a few years ago was my mother screaming at my husband and shaking her finger right in his face when he was standing next to one of our sons. She never apologized for that and in one of her emails when we were trying to work things out she said that last time she was here she "profusely apologized" for it, I responded that we both distinctly recall that she did not apologize and that maybe she though when she told him how much she liked him that in her mind this was an apology (we all know how that works don't we). I then wrote that we did not consider such to be an apology and that the apology that she claims she made exists nowhere except in her mind. It was after that email that I received the one about what a terrible daughter I was etc. etc. etc.
Also concerning your last post, maybe you might want to ask your mother to give you the name of this "best therapist in the country" that she visited so that you can make an appointment for the two of you to attend. I would bet that by now I guess the person has died or moved to another country LOL.
LM
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My mother tells all that she's seen "the best therapist in the country"
That is really funny. Sometimes I think we should have a thread (or a folder or something) of the most hilariously narcissistic things ever said or done.
Black humor, I know. But sometimes it is really funny.
The best therapist in the country! Priceless. So she must be the most-fixed person in the world! How could you argue with her?
Would it be in poor taste (or outside the aims of these boards) to have such a thread? I find laughter of that kind healing (some might find it too sarcastic).
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Thanks for clearing that up (on the origin) Yes, thats the typical language of an N - the best etc. One of her others is "profusely" for it's extreme conotation. I didn't expand enough on the "best therapist in the country" quote. Everybody knows she didn't see anybody, but she says it anyway. She may have read a chapter in a book and therefore.....you just get used to deciphering an extreme N like this. I've never known her to tell the truth in any situation no matter how big or small. This one is surely a lie. In fact it's origin, after I severed the relationship and she reacted, was that she went into a 6 month long relationship course on how to have better relations with your spouce - she parlayed that into a masters degree of all things related to phsychology. You know what is the beautiful thing that I've understood and has become my disposition with respect to her - the old time-tested bible adage - You Reap What You Sow. I don't have a relationship because well.....thats just the result. I'm the child and you are the adult - you explain it then - I'm done accomodating your needs. I like this subject.
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Vunil: absolutely! A black humor thread: the most narcissistice comments ever. Carhartic, I would think. But you start....I'm such a bigmouth chicken.....
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Ok, I started it...
Everyone post away! I hope it doesn't offend anyone...
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Okay no problem - my mother has to be the worst offender in the history of lying and misrepresentation so here goes. I will structure it as hER QOUTES and then the FACT just to highlite the degree of "sickness"? I don't know what to refer to this stuff as . All I know is that it's these kinds of things that I've been frustrated trying to untangle and defend against my entire life. It frustrates me to even have to type them - my anger comes to the surface. These are the kind of things she says to people, even when one or all of her kids were present (when we were still living under her control and didn't have a voice)
her claim/statement - "the thing I'm most proud of is the job I did raising my kids"
FACT - She has never had a single meaningful exchange with any of her kids (other than abuse)and none of us want anything to do with her.
her claim/statement - "My strongest qualities are truth and honesty"
FACT - She literally has never uttered the truth no matter how big or small the situation.
her claim/statement - "I have a couple of Degrees from this university"
FACT - While driving past the university that my youngest sister now attends (and who she's talking to in the car). She took a night course there 10 years ago that she attended maybe 3 mondays in a row. I've heard this one evolve now to two Degree's.
Actually there are 1,000's of these examples. I wish I could better drescribe the frustration and rage that comes from living my whole life under the control of someone like this (I have a difficult time saying mother)
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I would love to add some quotes to this list...
Quote: I've worked your whole life for you and I to have a good relationship.
Fact: Her definition of good is one where I adore her, worship her advice and take it without question, never think for myself and never think of myself.
Quote: I left your father so you wouldn't have to be treated badly.
Fact: He left her. He asked for the divorce. He said he left her because I was making the environment difficult for him. She actually asked me to be nice to him so he would come back (This is the sexually abusive father by the way).
Quote: I only wanted you and your brother to be well adjusted.
Fact: She raised us in the house with a drug using, alcohol abusing, paranoid schizophrenic. Hmmm, wonder why we aren't well adjusted??
Quote: You only dreamed that
Fact: I wish to god I had only dreamed it.
Quote: My mother was abusive and I went out of my way not to abuse you and your brother.
Fact: She did not abuse my brother. I am a different story.
Quote: I didn't know what paranoid schizophrenia meant.
Fact: She did know that he heard voices, did drugs, drank heavily, and talked on the phone to people who were not there. She did know that he was dangerous because she often had to wake us up in the middle of the night to go to a hotel. Otherwise, we were all in danger.
Quote: I didn't know you were being abused.
Fact: She may not have known I was being raped, but she knew about all the other stuff.
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In your original post you asked for advice. Here's mine; take it with the approprate amount of salt.
If and it is a big if, your mother is truly an N my advice is block your e-mail, return her letters unopened, concentrate on your husband and the family you are planning and leave that rotten world behind you. If she is an N she will insinute herself into your children's lives and quite possibly ruin them. And she will never change.
"I love you more than you could know"
I almost hear the violins. If she is an N she doesn't even know what love is. It is foreign to her. Ns are like the pod people in "Invasion of the Bodysnatchers". They watch normal people to see how they should act but they never get it right because there is something alien inside.
I view N as a cancer. If you cut half of it off it comes back bigger than before.
One last thing, boundaries to most Ns are simply a challenge. How can they outsmart us and prove their superiority and reassert control?
Maybe I'm hard about it, but life is awfully short to spend placating parasitic screwballs even when they are your own mother.