Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Screamer on February 09, 2005, 03:19:30 PM
-
As I mentioned in my previous post, my Nmother is sending her letters again.
Here is the first letter
I am really missing you a lot today. Can’t hold back the tears. On February 14th it will be exactly 2 years since I have heard your voice. I miss you too much.
I am writing a letter to both you and Franco to help you understand the backdrop of what was happening during your childhood. The letter gets longer and longer and I don’t know when I will finish it. But whenever that is, I hope you will take the time to read it. I will also always have a copy in my lock box at the bank. This letter will be for only yours and Franco’s eyes unless to choose to share it.
I love you more than you could ever know.
I basically said this was not about my childhood and asked her not to send the letter. I also asked her why she was putting it in the lock box. (I know, it should have been obvious that this was just more dramatic manipulation)
Here is her response.
I will not send the letter. I do not wish to add to your pain in any way. The letter was not at all about your childhood, but about my life during your childhood - things no one knows regarding me. I hope I haven't caused you any more pain at all with saying I was writing this letter. The reason I said I would put it in my lock box was because I felt you might not read it at this time, but at some time in the future you might want more information. In that case, it would be available. I am so sorry.
This is an unaltered quote. WOW… that sad thing is I am usually sucked in to her game. I fall for the guilt; I cry for days, I feel that I am such a horrible person. I often wonder if I am crazy… maybe things weren’t like I remember. Maybe she I should be more compassionate. But sometimes these things get really damn obvious.
Every few months I get an e-mail like this. “I love you, I miss you, I hope things are okay.” The problem is that when I’m around her she just shreds me to pieces.
It appears from reading the posts that many N's try this manipulation by e-mail. Its getting so that I get sick every time I see her name in my inbox.
-
It sounds like she wants to "share" how tough her life was while you were children. It's N of her. Can't she see a therapist about it, why burden you? It's not your job to hear all about her suffering. Geezzzz...
bunny
-
I can't even begin to imagine your situation, but for me it would be a relief if my Mother wanted to even make excuses...as far as she's concerned, nothing ever happened that was oput of the ordinary.
I would be somewhat cautious, but willing to listen if my Mother ever said "I'm sorry for this; I had problems x, y, and z when you were a kid and just couldn't handle myself. It wasn't your fault."
What I get is: "I can't imagine myself ever doing or saying such a thing, I'm just not that kind of person, but IF I did, I'm sorry." End of conversation, or so it was the last time I tried, say 12 years ago.
Not saying you should listen if you are not inclined already, but I would be at least curious to see what she was offering, if it were my Mother.
-
My heart-rate also speeds up when I see her name in my in-box. I believe that hard-core N's don't even realize their use of manipulation. They are so programmed to craft everything they do and say for their self-serving reasons that that is who/what they are as a person. My mother especially believes/promotes herself to be the most compassionate and considerate person alive because she thinks she's defined by her writings. Her actions and relationships over the years are completrely contrary to any of it. I know she sends people copies of our correpondence to solicit support, which she gets from many of the weaklings she surrounds herself with including her N family. They read her "wonderful" e-mails and can't believe why I wouldn't respond favourably. It is so frustrating, having to defend against such bullshit. I stopped engaging the debate from relatives and bystanders about a year ago. There is now way to win a debate with an N who only knows manipulation and is used to people - especially their own children - "respecting" them and their ways. I have found that the only successful way to deal with the letter writing campaign or any other communication, is to suggest to them to get the help they need. And repeat that every time they ignore it. A typical N thinks a few weeks of ignoring it, is a fresh start and that maybe you won't have the "courage" to "go there" again. In that short and consistant reply, I've twice attached the link of this Voicelessness website. That is first time anyone has ever mentioned her lifelong abusive behavior and history of relationship problems. Some N's will live in denial forever. I found it very fulfilling/satisfying to inform her exactly what is wrong with her (which the voiclessness website does)
-
sorry Screamer, I didn't see this thread before I replied on the other one. So it was all about her and not you :roll: well, selfish and self-centred to the last I guess. I'm sorry.
Wouldn't it be GREAT if they could take just the slightest bit of positive, altruistic, loving interest in our lives once in a while? That's the mistake I often make, thinking that she's interested in me. Mistake :D
Your future pregnancy may be a source of envy and internal angst for her. Please don't underestimate how she might react, if you decide to tell her...L
-
I am so sorry.
PS What followed this above? Anything? I ask because it's not clear what she's sorry about.
I think she's sorry for herself, because you've rejected her story. I don't she's sorry for you. I don't think she's apologising. I think she's ego-injured and is retaliating with self-righteousness in her reply. I detect some spite too.
Has she asked about how your life is?
-
Your future pregnancy may be a source of envy and internal angst for her. Please don't underestimate how she might react, if you decide to tell her...L
So true, such a classic attitude from N mothers towards their daughters...
This is one way you can get f**ed up generations, N passing from mothers to daughters...
Daughters, beware!!!
-
Screamer:
Just what was the purpose of this letter supposed to be? To make you feel better. Not. The purpose of the letter was to reel you in, to beg for the information because IT MUST BE SOOOOO important. Why bother to lock it in a security box? Because IT MUST BE SOOOOO important? Not.
The answer to your question: Are all N's letter writers? Yes they are. I got letters, checks, begging me to "let by gones be by gones" about my mother. This was after my father tormented her for 40 years. Just ignore her and go on about your business. Let her stew. Love Patz
-
Yup, Screamer, they must all do this. My "N" happens to be my ex, and email happens to be the primary way we "communicate". His emails are defensive, raging and even his screen name is CAPITALIZED and yelling, just like him. I believe his new wife helps him construct his emails most of the time, so they don't actually even sound like him...ie: better vocabulary and more poison.
She cannot have children, mine don't care for her, so boy is she pissed (and married to a cheating bastard, too....poor girl).
Before I even open email, I have to breathe deeply, consiously set my intention to let go of any negativity I may pick up if I open my email and his name is there. I know it's bound to be nasty..even if it is just travel info, he infuses it with either "poor me" I "have" to go away....or "I DEMAND" language, or who the hell do you think you are for having an opinion, etc.... I really have to work at letting it go, it is a process, but if I don't do it, I carry his shit for days. (looking at it like that helps to let go...why would I willingly carry feces?).
Any way, yup, they are all about them! My best response has been (because our emails were admissable in court I do respond) is "recieved email."
With your mom, say "OH well" to yourself and skip happily out of the room and on with your day! (and vidualize her shit/energy flushing out of your body!)
-
I am so sorry.
PS What followed this above? Anything? I ask because it's not clear what she's sorry about.
I think she's sorry for herself, because you've rejected her story. I don't she's sorry for you. I don't think she's apologising. I think she's ego-injured and is retaliating with self-righteousness in her reply. I detect some spite too.
Has she asked about how your life is?
Nothing followed this. I believe her e-mail was meant to be spiteful and sarcastic. And no, she did not ask about me. This letter about her life during my childhood is another way to garner sympathy. Poor her, she is the real victim here. If only I could understand how much abuse she took for my sake.
She often claims that she stayed and took my father's mental and physical abuse of her so that we could have a father in our lives. What a self-sacrificing mother, huh? I am so ungrateful and horrible for not recognizing how much she endured for my sake.
Screamer
-
It sounds like she wants to "share" how tough her life was while you were children. It's N of her. Can't she see a therapist about it, why burden you? It's not your job to hear all about her suffering. Geezzzz...
bunny
Bunny,
Another interesting point here is that she is sending this letter to my brother as well. My brother has told me that something is wrong with me and I need professional help. I am hurting the whole family by avoiding my mother. Sending this letter to my brother as well as me is just another way of getting him to feel sorry for her and put more pressure on me.
Screamer
-
Your future pregnancy may be a source of envy and internal angst for her. Please don't underestimate how she might react, if you decide to tell her...L
So true, such a classic attitude from N mothers towards their daughters...
This is one way you can get f**ed up generations, N passing from mothers to daughters...
Daughters, beware!!!
My family has a long history of abused girls. I'm the 4th generation of abused daughters in my family. I bet my mother thinks "I took it from my mom, she should take it from me!"
I am determined NOT to carry this forward. No matter what it takes! I will not tell her about the baby until AFTER I have had it. I don't want her involved in the pregancy, because it will be a source of envy as Luego mentioned. In fact, the last straw for me was my wedding. Just like with the rest of my life it was all about her.
She was too busy at her important job to help with the preparations. If she did offer any advice I was supposed to take it without question. At my wedding shower, she toasted my friends... but never toasted me. Great way to turn the attention away from me and make herself look so gracious don't you think.
Screamer
-
Screamer, it's absolutely possible to not "pay it forward". I have a soon-to-be-11 yo girl, and our relationship is solid and happy, not at all like I had with my mother. I'm not perfect, and I've over-reacted at times (as I still do sometimes and all parents will), but I always apologize immediately and have never ever hit her (except once, when she CHOSE spanking as a puinsihment at age 3.5 - a funny story).
So long as you are sure of your own truth about your mother (I know all about the enlisting) - AND yourself, you'll be able to do a fine job of being a good mother, so long as you neither expect too much nor too little from yourself or your child (most of the time).
Dr. Grossman's essays are very helpful in terms of how to create a strong, self-assured child - or at least maximize that potential. I didn't have those when I started (only saw them recently), but they reflect articulately the way I've tried to approach parenting. I highly recommend them.
T
-
hi--
I only know what I read in this thread (not the history here) but there is something in the e-mails that seems to be expressing vulnerability and the desire to understand. I am waiting for that kind of thing from my parents, because I think it leads to an opening for communication. And not everyone with N tendencies is a lost cause-- and the literature seems to suggest that the thing that can help people not be narcissitic is hitting some sort of barrier that really upsets them and needs fixing.
Your reaction to your mom is up to you, and should reflect your entire history (which I don't know) but just for what it's worth her e-mails didn't seem obviously only narcissistic to me-- they have a tinge of something else that might be helpful to getting yourself heard. It may not be perfect, but my experience with N people who are lost causes is that they aren't the least bit interested in exploring their reasons for things (what reasons-- everything they do is perfect!) and trying to understand someone else (there isn't anyone else) -- she may be trying to do something genuinely different for her and really try to be whole. Maybe she is terrible at it! But it's new to her.
my 2 cents, which may not be useful because there is so little information here. One way to gather information would be to actually talk to her (maybe on the phone or in person where she can't be as grandiose).
-
I disagree guest above with
there is something in the e-mails that seems to be expressing vulnerability and the desire to understand
I don't see any attempt to understand anything or anyone other than herself. She expresses no interest whatsoever in anyone else's view (she doesn't want responses to her letter, she just wants others to read her letter) and she doesn't enquire about her daughter's life.
Where is the vulnerability? Where is the desire to understand? Can you quote either of these things from the emails?
Some part of me is waiting too for some interest in me from my parent, but it's not going to happen. Ever. I just have to live with that. When I manage to give up that fraction of hope, I might allow myself to be happy. Maybe. But I don't go looking for false hope and I wouldn't give it to others. L
-
Where is the vulnerability? Where is the desire to understand? Can you quote either of these things from the emails?
Some part of me is waiting too for some interest in me from my parent, but it's not going to happen. Ever. I just have to live with that. When I manage to give up that fraction of hope, I might allow myself to be happy. Maybe. But I don't go looking for false hope and I wouldn't give it to others. L
Luego,
I feel the same as you. I am forever holding out hope that she will really take an interest in me. It is as though I want her to see me as a real and whole person. It will never happen. Ever. I have come to that realization just as you have. Still hurts though, and there is a small part of me that still wants to get this from her. The logical part of me knows she just can't do it.
My past experience with her would lead me to believe that this is not a true attempt at connecting, or trying to understand. It is an attempt to turn attention back on her and drag me back into the family system.
No disrespect to the guest intended, but I have set myself up over and over again by believing that her actions might be an attempt to reach out. She just doesn't have it in her.
Screamer
-
Ok, off with my head then.
I can't know the details because they aren't included in the thread-- so of course I reacted just to what I read.
One thing that worries me about these boards (and maybe I'll just have to leave them for awhile) is that any indication that the situation involves a relationship, and that the person we're talking about (the "N" person) is anything other than a cartoon results in indignant responses. And there is no real talk of what all of us are doing, including what we are doing that reflects our own narcissistic upbringings in families that were truly broken. There is no way we got out without some narcissistic tendencies of our own-- it's going to come with the territory. That's true even if our parents didn't have NPD (which mine didn't-- the full fledged thing is very very rare). And most of us don't have the clinical training to diagnose NPD anyway.
I just worry about all of this judgment of those "others" that goes on, because it absolves us completely. I feel as if I'm not allowed to ask what the real story is behind this thread (what is the history there) and, most oddly of all, that I'm just supposed to know it instictively. And that I have to agree with everyone about it.
This mother does sound irritating. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have the capacity for some sort of love and reaching out. [or it may-- but I'm not wrong just because I disagree].
-
I just worry about all of this judgment of those "others" that goes on, because it absolves us completely. I feel as if I'm not allowed to ask what the real story is behind this thread (what is the history there) and, most oddly of all, that I'm just supposed to know it instictively. And that I have to agree with everyone about it.
This mother does sound irritating. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have the capacity for some sort of love and reaching out. [or it may-- but I'm not wrong just because I disagree].
I don't think the real story matters in this case. (I don't know it either.) This is about a person's feelings about an email she got from her mom. That's all it is. Just the feelings it evoked. Sometimes there is a polarized aspect to this but if you see that it's just someone processing maybe it won't look as troubling to you.
bunny
-
True enough. I was just processing, too. But it wasn't my thread :)
I think this whole thing echoed some stuff I've been experiencing with my family, but I haven't resolved all of it so everything is sitting there, a little stirred up, while I figure it out. I'm not willing to declare them hopeless, but sometimes it really helps just to act as if they are (because sometimes they indicate that they are!). Relationships are complicated...
I guess my primary concern was just that if we as a thread take a particularly strong stance about what is "true", we could sway all of the reasoning one way or another and set us all back a bit. It's hard when you're asking advice, especially from people as smart as this group, not to take the advice. Sometimes I have wanted something a little softer, I guess, more open to possibilities that haven't arisen yet. My reactions weren't to anyone's expressions of feelings, but to the very strong stances about what the mother means and wants and is. I wanted a little balance to it. But again, it's not my thread and not really my place to ask for balance.
Hope that clarifies...
-
Guest with compassion and worry about the board:
Ok, off with my head then.
No! That’s not the point. You’re not being attacked, you’re being disagreed with. What I’d like is to see the reason behind your view on this particular topic. If you don’t explain why you think:
there is something in the e-mails that seems to be expressing vulnerability and the desire to understand
how can I consider your view properly? How can I reconsider my view and perhaps change my mind to fit your view – unless you show me why I might? Where is the evidence for your view – seriously? My views – as leugo – are based upon the content of the emails and on my experience. I have put forward a view based on the actual content as it is displayed here. I have taken time to read and re-read the emails before replying. My replies are considered. So – if I am very wrong in my view, I want to know why, so I can reconsider. I need to see your view and your reasoning, otherwise I have nothing to go on.
I like balance too. I’d like to see an alternative reading of these emails. I’d like to think there is a possibility that the mother did it fact say ‘I’m so sorry….and I hope you are okay and I worry about you etc etc’. That’s why I asked for clarification about what she did say.
So: yes, balance. Please don’t assume that my replies were just gut reactions, they were considered and based on the evidence before my eyes. What are your views based upon? Please clarify further or – let’s consider why you are reacting as you have? But:
It's hard when you're asking advice, especially from people as smart as this group, not to take the advice.
Smart? Maybe, maybe not, we all have to decide what’s smart for ourselves. But do people just take advice and act upon it without thinking it through themselves? I doubt it, don’t you? We can maybe influence, but people will do what they want or need to do. We don’t have any power here. Thank goodness.
I think this whole thing echoed some stuff I've been experiencing with my family, but I haven't resolved all of it so everything is sitting there, a little stirred up, while I figure it out.
You can figure it out here you know. I might be jumping on you right now because I feel a bit underestimated by you (and my estimation of myself isn’t all that great some days). So I’m standing up for myself but also, I feel something in you that wants to come out and I also feel that maybe you don’t know if this is the right place? Because the impression is that we’re pretty ‘us and them’ about things? Not so, not really, try it, see how it works out, why not? I don’t like polarised black and white thinking and if that’s what your family stuff is like, let’s talk about it? We could do some thrashing about these emails here, but maybe you’d rather talk about what’s important to you? You’re okay, please keep your head P
-
True enough. I was just processing, too. But it wasn't my thread :)
You can process your stuff on a thread you didn't start. Everyone does.
I think this whole thing echoed some stuff I've been experiencing with my family, but I haven't resolved all of it so everything is sitting there, a little stirred up, while I figure it out. I'm not willing to declare them hopeless, but sometimes it really helps just to act as if they are (because sometimes they indicate that they are!). Relationships are complicated...
Maybe some aspects of your family are hopeless, while other aspects have a potential to get better. Sadly there are some parents discussed here who are so damaged/pathological that the general prognosis is poor. But the hope is still there and that is very painful.
I guess my primary concern was just that if we as a thread take a particularly strong stance about what is "true", we could sway all of the reasoning one way or another and set us all back a bit.
If it triggers stuff that is painful and brings up a lot of anxiety that is a risk, I will admit. I don't know if it sets everyone back, though. I don't feel set back.
It's hard when you're asking advice, especially from people as smart as this group, not to take the advice.
I don't think they're taking the advice. I've seen countless advices not taken. :)
Sometimes I have wanted something a little softer, I guess, more open to possibilities that haven't arisen yet. My reactions weren't to anyone's expressions of feelings, but to the very strong stances about what the mother means and wants and is. I wanted a little balance to it. But again, it's not my thread and not really my place to ask for balance.
I see what you're saying. You can ask for balance on a thread that isn't yours. There are ways of doing it that are a bit lower key but hey. For example, the phrases, "I'm wondering" or "I'm curious" helps...but this thread ultimately wasn't about the "real" mother or the "real" relationship. It was about feelings evoked by an email. Internal parents were involved, old templates were involved, projections were involved. It was about feelings. If you know what I mean.
Hope that clarifies...
It did for me anyway. Thanks for posting that explanation.
bunny
-
Ok, off with my head then.
I can't know the details because they aren't included in the thread-- so of course I reacted just to what I read.
One thing that worries me about these boards (and maybe I'll just have to leave them for awhile) is that any indication that the situation involves a relationship, and that the person we're talking about (the "N" person) is anything other than a cartoon results in indignant responses. And there is no real talk of what all of us are doing, including what we are doing that reflects our own narcissistic upbringings in families that were truly broken. There is no way we got out without some narcissistic tendencies of our own-- it's going to come with the territory. That's true even if our parents didn't have NPD (which mine didn't-- the full fledged thing is very very rare). And most of us don't have the clinical training to diagnose NPD anyway.
I just worry about all of this judgment of those "others" that goes on, because it absolves us completely. I feel as if I'm not allowed to ask what the real story is behind this thread (what is the history there) and, most oddly of all, that I'm just supposed to know it instictively. And that I have to agree with everyone about it.
This mother does sound irritating. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have the capacity for some sort of love and reaching out. [or it may-- but I'm not wrong just because I disagree].
Guest,
Let me first say that I meant you no disrespect. You are entitled to your opinion and it is as valid as anyone’s. I welcome all input. My responses are simply my own opinion and are in no way meant to invalidate yours.
It may honestly sound like I am being judgmental and not being responsible for my part in the relationship. This may be true. My issue is that since I was a small child, I have had to be responsible for everything in the relationship. Young children are not responsible for the abuses of their parents.
As an adult, I hold some responsibility, true. I am responsible for how much I allow, I am responsible for my reaction, I am responsible to take care of myself and my family. Sometimes this means self-protection. If a woman is married to a physically abusive man is she responsible for the abuse or is she responsible to take care of herself and get out of the relationship. She may genuinely be contributing to a bad relationship. But ultimately she has to get out of it and then work on herself.
I can't diagnose my mother. She may not have a personality disorder. However, my feelings and experiences have been the same as many that I read on this board. Whether she is a true NPD or not, I have lived the life of an NPD's child. I'm finding my own voice and have been fortunate to find a place to shout it out. (Hence the nick Screamer). I don't have to quietly take it anymore. NPD or just a pain in the ASS... doesn't matter. The effect is the same, the feelings are the same and the healing process is the same.
I would also insist that I am not being judgmental. I am speaking my truth, finally. Is it being judgmental to call an ostrich a flightless bird. They can't fly, they never will. History is a teacher. I don't think my mother is anymore capable of genuinely reaching out than an ostrich is of flying. Our history does not indicate that she is capable.
As far as our own N tendencies. If we don't address our upbringing and see it for what it is, we won't be able to address those things in ourselves. We have to see the truth and speak the truth and acknowledge the truth for what it is. Then we can overcome it and do better by our friends and families.
This is my truth. This is the reality that I lived. It is not a judgment or an attempt to be a clinician. It is not an absolution of my responsibility. It is an affirmation of it. I am responsible for my own life, I claim my life and I will live my life! This is my truth!
-
Screamer and Guest and anyone,
I'm an Introvert Judgemental, no doubt about it! :roll: The word judgement gets mis-used and misinterpreted I think. It's okay to have decision-making judgements (or open-ended perceptions). Screamer, I bet you're a J too?
And Guest, are you a P perceiver?
Sometimes these basic differences can account for different ways of interpreting things. Portia
-
Screamer and Guest and anyone,
I'm an Introvert Judgemental, no doubt about it! :roll: The word judgement gets mis-used and misinterpreted I think. It's okay to have decision-making judgements (or open-ended perceptions). Screamer, I bet you're a J too?
And Guest, are you a P perceiver?
Sometimes these basic differences can account for different ways of interpreting things. Portia
Guest, I am an Introver, Thinker, iNtuitive, Judger. I am a very low T, I would consider myself and F/T
You are right. These can have a significant impact on how information is interpreted and communicated.
I truly intend no disrespect to anyone on this board. I really hope that the other guest believes that!! If there is any place we should all be free to express ourselves as ourselves it should be here!
-
Hi, it's me, the previous "guest."
I think what's going on here is that I was trying to figure out what was "true" about everything. It's an odd thing to do here-- what's true is what you feel. Thanks everyone for pointing that out. And this is our place to have a voice-- it's really a precious thing. The N people in our lives certainly get their say all over the place and it's nice to have this santuary away from them.
I'm sorry if I seemed too blunt or insenstive--
All of this got me thinking about some stuff about my childhood and where it led me, so I started a new thread there about it. I wonder if any others have had my experience? Feel free to hop on board there :)
-
Hi, it's me, the previous "guest."
I think what's going on here is that I was trying to figure out what was "true" about everything. It's an odd thing to do here-- what's true is what you feel. Thanks everyone for pointing that out. And this is our place to have a voice-- it's really a precious thing. The N people in our lives certainly get their say all over the place and it's nice to have this santuary away from them.
I'm sorry if I seemed too blunt or insensitive--
All of this got me thinking about some stuff about my childhood and where it led me, so I started a new thread there about it. I wonder if any others have had my experience? Feel free to hop on board there :)