Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: bludie on February 09, 2005, 07:30:40 PM
-
Hi,
I'm ticked off and upset. I'm on the phone with clients this morning and had to screen four separate calls. I now know his new cell phone. The voice messages were disturbing. Among the rants, he claimed antiques were missing from his storage unit. Didn't want to phone him back but called the movers since I had hired and paid for them. It would have been my contractual obligation. Anyway, I suspected he was lying (I guess the stuff is still in storage but in a few weeks he'll be moving - most likely with his new squeeze in some Hyde Park crib or something).
In his first message he raged that I owed him money and stuff was missing. In his second message he almost sounded human and compassionate. He started with: "Look, there's something I want to say from my heart..." The upshot of it was to say he had been treated poorly (since I won't return his phone calls and have blocked him from my life in every other conceivable way) and he was disappointed that I wasn't being more of an adult (taking the bait and responding to his calls). He went onto say that he could accept the ill treatment but couldn't "leave the money on the table" that he feels is his due.
His heartfelt message was about him. Duh? What was I thinking?! Could it have to do with anyone other than his needs, wants, slights, hurts??
Without getting into financial details, he kept one place and I kept the one I'm in....He sold his. I'm hanging onto mine. He wants his portion of down payment money on my place. I'm not hurrying to cough it up. He left me and my daughter in a strange city with a huge mortgage and no bonafide job. Fortunately, I have developed a consultant business and have managed to land on my feet. But if you tabulated what I gave up to move here (salary, retirement, health insurance not to mention blood, sweat, tears and other punitive damage) his down payment money is paltry.
Further, I'm in grad school now so I have to watch finances. The letter of the law is on my side. It says I owe him nothing and he knows it. His only option is to harass, scare and alternately appeal to my humanity. His strategy is backfiring. The nastier and more bothersome he becomes, the less likely I am to do anything his way.
His last statement really hurt: "I can accept how you've treated me but I won't accept leaving money on the table." Translation: You meant nothing to me, babe. All I'm concerned about is the jack."
Anyway, in between client calls/appts. I've had all calls formally traced. I am going to the police department tomorrow and file a formal complaint. The phone company said they can't block his number. This would be the second phone number change for me inside of six months. I don't want to do it. He'll think he can make me flinch. More importantly, it disrupts communication with personal and professional contacts. Not to mention how my daughter feels when she has to tell her school, Dad, and friends that our phone number changed again.
Once I talk to the PD I may contact my lawyer again. But all of this makes me feel like I am back to hoop-jumping because of an idiot.
Am I pole-vaulting over mouse turds? I am angrier than I've ever been about this situation. Just when I feel I am turning a corner, he's back. I'm sick of the drama. Sick of the adrenaline. Sick of the disruption in our lives. Thanks for letting me vent an irrational blue streak!
bludie
-
I'm ticked off and upset. I'm on the phone with clients this morning and had to screen four separate calls. I now know his new cell phone. The voice messages were disturbing. Among the rants, he claimed antiques were missing from his storage unit. Didn't want to phone him back but called the movers since I had hired and paid for them. It would have been my contractual obligation.
This is just a ploy to get you to invest time/energy on his behalf. Don't call the movers any more. He can investigate his own missing antiques. It's not your problem anymore.
In his first message he raged that I owed him money and stuff was missing. In his second message he almost sounded human and compassionate. He started with: "Look, there's something I want to say from my heart..."
More manipulation to get you to hear his crap.
The letter of the law is on my side. It says I owe him nothing and he knows it.
Then I hope you won't give him any money.
His last statement really hurt: "I can accept how you've treated me but I won't accept leaving money on the table."
I'd be laughing at him. He sounds like a fool!
Anyway, in between client calls/appts. I've had all calls formally traced. I am going to the police department tomorrow and file a formal complaint.
Good idea unless you can simply delete any phone message from him, unheard, and then you don't even have to bother. You can also get a lawyer to write a letter asking him to cease contacting you. Someone else on this board (or somewhere) suggested that.
bunny
-
Bludie
Am I pole-vaulting over mouse turds? I am angrier than I've ever been about this situation. Just when I feel I am turning a corner, he's back. I'm sick of the drama. Sick of the adrenaline. Sick of the disruption in our lives. Thanks for letting me vent an irrational blue streak!
Sorry, you can't shake this guy. Maybe the mouse turds are all there is, because he is a mouse. You are so much smarter than the silly little mouse trying to get thru the cracks in your very strong foundation.
Bunny, always has good thoughts and insights.
Hang in there don't let him ruin your day. He knew he would cause you aggravation when he called you. This was his well thought out plan.
you have his cell phone number now, sell it to some sales department so they call him everyday. Maybe next time he will think twice before he calls you again.....
Take Care Hugs to you...onlyrenting
-
Bludie,
Sorry you are going through all this..... Sounds REALLY awful. But here's the upside: the fact that you are so angry and see him so clearly for who he is (a complete and utter jerk) is far better than an earlier stage where you were missing him and longing for him and wishing you were still with him. I don't know your entire history, but I imagine feelings like that were part of it. And you have definitely progressed beyond that. I think where you are at now is healthier in that your view of him is more realistic. It's now just a logistical annoyance. I like what the last poster suggested about deleting his messages unheard. If you know the letter of the law is on your side, who cares what he does? (unless of course he is dangerous, in which case you WOULD want to involve the police).
My thoughts are with you!
Chandra
-
{{bunny, onlyrenting, chandra}}}
Here's what happened since my last post. Eleven phone calls later (with voice mails that progressively got more sloshy and threatening "I will not stop. I'll do whatever it takes to get what's fair." THEN he informs me in his 6th or 7th VM that HE'S IN TOWN (where I live). Lordy. I had just gone for a jog, shoveled the walk and got creeped to think he may have been lurking around; not to mention my daughter. I just hate that her world is subjected to this crap.
I called the PD and consented to having an officer come over. I thought if the a-hole decided to show up or drive by a cop car would make for a nice welcome wagon. Cop came in and listened to the 7 VMs (which contained some highly personal information) and said this bordered on harassment; that he'd file a report but didn't know if it would result in a charge through the city attorney's office. He offered to call my ex-N back and tell him to knock it off. He did this in his squad car so I couldn't hear what was said. I felt stupid, raw, vulnerable and like a Jerry Springer refugee.
EVEN AFTER THAT the ex-N called 4 more times leaving messages that he knew would press my buttons. (Unfortunately some of them really did dammit Anyway, his last one (he said forever and ever -- good luck -- have a good life) was to an old friend of mine he had become acquainted with a year ago. He said that my (male) friend said to let go of the money because every day it would cost me a little bit of my life. I didn't call my friend. It was too late and we weren't terribly close. But from the last time I saw this friend (summertime) I could tell my ex-N had done some damage. Things weren't the same. But that's been the case with several of my friends since I moved away.
The last VM was what got me. He took someone from my past, part of my pre-N life, part of my support system and has made it seem foreboding and formidable. I don't want to call this person because it would seem desperate and I'm worried that he agrees with my ex-N (the guy pact thing).
Anyway, it's been a HORRIBLE day. This is not the way I wanted things to end between us. But the more angry, castigating and vicious he's become the less empathic I am to his situation. But it bugs me because he knows I have integrity and now I'm not so sure. He said some pretty gut-level stuff that really hurt. It's caused self-doubt again. He was masterful at doing this during the relationship.
I've unplugged the phones and will call the PD again tomorrow if there are any more VMs. I am praying this is it. He said "That's it, bludie. You've won. Take it. And if you believe in karma, remember this will catch up with you."
There is an intellectual side of me that knows this is crap. But there is this soulful part of me that he has truly affected tonight. Dumb and lame as this sounds, I want absolution from my ex-N. I want absolution from my friend whom he has now influenced. I want absolution from my brain.
Thanks for listening to my sordid plight. I'm going to scan the rest of the board and try to sleep. I am sad but will be okay. I don't think I will ever be able to trust or love again, though. I am almost 46 years old. I feel used up, worn out, rejected and helter skelter.
Not the best,
bludie
-
I must be brief as am dashing to work.
This volume of VM's and his harassment of you is disgusting. I am glad you called the PD. I think he is jealous of the fact that you are coping so well and in grad school. Congratulations - that can't be easy along with raising a daughter AND working. You are doing an amazing job.
I don't know why you want to seek any absolution from your tormentor?
Hopefully, with the passage of time, he'll move on and leave you in peace.
You are very strong, remember that.
-
bludie:
If you look at this whole episode a different way it might help. I remember well when my ex N went off the deep end when I decided that enough was enough i.e. I left HIM, HIM of all people! He would "drop" by unannounced, he would fax irritating messages, he would have his "friends" to call, or come by.......you name it. Of course this all occured before stalking laws. Well at any rate I would get in a dither about it, obessess about it, rant about it etc. It finally occurred to me that I was looking at this in the wrong way. Instead of me getting bent out of shape, I should look rather with amusement at his childish behavior as him throwing the tantrum. So I just decided to view his behaviour as such. Any time he would call about the money, I would just go "ho hum" is that right, well you have a nice day ok?" This would totally infuriate him and he would go into another tantrum. I really enjoyed watching him lose control. Such is the case with your N. Enjoy him lose the control he so admireably thinks he has. As far as the phone calls. Go to your lawyer and tell him these calls are costing you money and business. Let him notify the N that if your business suffers as a result of his "stalking" he will be charged not only with stalking but with monetary penalties as well. I realize this might be throwing gasoline on a burning fire. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Many hugs, Patz
-
sweet serena and dear patz,
Thank you for your posts. I appreciate, serena, that you view me as coming from a position of strength. I'm not certain if it's an accurate assessment (especially this morning) but I am comforted. Thank you.
Patz, you've been through so much and it sounds as though you really have perspective on your ordeal. For the past few months when he occasionally phoned, and I didn't respond, I had the same ho-hum response. He's banging on an empty drum and it won't work. But yesterday, with the barrage of calls and the last one: "Go ahead. Take it. Keep everything bludie. Because as ____ (my friend that he's influenced) said this will take a little bit off every day of your life" -- that one, for some reason, really struck me. Almost a voodoo curse though I'm not partial to this Cajun belief.
Anyway, I've been thinking about this paltry sum of money (paltry compared to my financial losses) that he did, in fact, put as a down payment on my house. I'll let this percolate for a while before doing anything but have thought about contacting his ex-sister-in-law. She's a reputable business person in my former community. She has also attempted to help my ex-Ns sons, one of whom has major emotional and addiction issues plus a learning disorder. At times the kid has been homeless and it's really bothered me because aside from his problems he (my ex-Ns son) is really a gentle soul. When with my ex-N I had virtually become his social worker trying to establish services through human service organizations.
I digress...any way, what I was thinking was to contact my ex-Ns former sister-in-law and talk to her about setting up a fund for my ex-Ns son. This way I could uphold a sense of integrity while putting the funds toward a viable need.
Any thoughts? Am I just nuts from lack of sleep and only my first cup of java?
Best,
bludie
-
bludie:
If indeed it is a small sum of money, this might be worth a consideration in the larger scheme of things. I also have a relative that has a mentally ill son that his father does not take care of. It is very sad to see, however, my cousin lately has taken him in under her wing, and he is improving with the stability. Is your ex sister-in-law,(is she the sister or Aunt to this son?) well at any rate, this will not only show you own humanity but your ex N's lack of it. He might be shocked by this. You might point out that his learning disordered son, if not provided for, will be a homeless individual roaming the streets. I have an autistic son that has to be provided for. I had to get rid of an N to accomplish the goals that was necessary for my son.
If you feel you can do this in a monetary way, I say kudos to you. In fact maybe some of N's other unN's family members could later make a contribution to this trust as well. Just make sure you have someone that is responsible to set the trust up and to administer it. Love Patz
-
Bludie: I feel for you. It is obvious your ex has spun out of control....and doing whatever he can to get some back (ie; control you). Don't beat yourself up for the times he actually does push your buttons. You are doing an unbelievably good job with this.
Just because he gets to you sometimes does not mean he "wins". As long as you look this fear right in the eye, see what it does and doesn't do to /for you, you will be fine... even if you are shaken and trembling, it's ok. Just don't do what fear tells you to do.
You could consider this a "good" thing... You have an opportunity here to really demonstrate power to yourself (who gives a shit if he understands....we all know he never will, so give that one up).
Seriously, I for one, am blown away by how strong you sound and how well you are handling this.
The next time I have to face my ex while he has an out of control temper tantrum, I will definately remember your strength. Seriously, you are a model to me:
walking right through this, head held high, perhaps still trembling inside, but doing it anyway, because you can!!!!
It reminds me of a comment made by "liz" on thelizlibrary.org... in this she is challenging a "fathers rights activist"/pedophile supporter...I think of this line all the time: "BRING IT ON, SPARKY!"
-
bludie,
This guy is a sociopath who will stop at nothing to intimidate, threaten, and blackmail you. Keep the police involved. This guy has criminal aspects to him. And I wonder if he was intoxicated when he left all those messages. In any case, it's harassment of the worst kind.
Do not feel guilty about the mafioso-like threats and attempts to shake you down for money. Do not give him any money. If he lost some money on a down payment TOO BAD. He left and that's his problem!!
My advice: don't set up a trust fund for his son!! Don't get involved with his son!! That is crossing a boundary with this guy that I would not cross. I'm sorry for his son but don't do it. It's not a good idea.
Do you have a therapist you can call? Sorry I can't remember.
bunny
-
Again, ladies. Your strength is my strength today. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
bunny said:
Do you have a therapist you can call? Sorry I can't remember.
Just called her. As usual, bunny, you're spot-on.
bunny also said:Do not feel guilty about the mafioso-like threats and attempts to shake you down for money. Do not give him any money. If he lost some money on a down payment TOO BAD. He left and that's his problem!!
Many people who know my situation have said the same thing - and from all economic walks of life, too. You're right, bunny. This man is sociopathic. I am convinced of that after yesterday. His poker face is off and his cards are squarely on the table.
patz said:
If you feel you can do this in a monetary way, I say kudos to you. In fact maybe some of N's other unN's family members could later make a contribution to this trust as well. Just make sure you have someone that is responsible to set the trust up and to administer it. Love Patz
I won't take any action on this until simmering down. I am trying to take client calls today and sound weird and wired. Am drinking water instead of coffee and will try to nap after picking my daughter up from school today.
mum said:
Just because he gets to you sometimes does not mean he "wins". As long as you look this fear right in the eye, see what it does and doesn't do to /for you, you will be fine... even if you are shaken and trembling, it's ok. Just don't do what fear tells you to do.
You could consider this a "good" thing... You have an opportunity here to really demonstrate power to yourself (who gives a shit if he understands....we all know he never will, so give that one up).
I am trying to light a candle rather than curse the darkness today. But I am very jumbled and am having a hard time understanding how or why he was able to achieve so much mental control over me. This is a juggernaut and probably one I'll not likely uncover today. But why and how I'm allowing myself to be so affected over the machinations of a truly crazy person is perplexing.
I have a call into the shift officer about what happened last night after the other officer left. I just want all of yesterday on record. In my days as a paralegal nearly 20 years ago, I learned to document and memorialize facts to avoid he-said/she said situations. If I get one more call today I am cancelling appts. and going to municipal court.
ALERT - he just called again. That's it. I am torked. He is going to pay.
What a waste of time and energy.
bludie
-
Go, Bludie, go! Sparky brought it on! It's ok that he "got you going"....it's old habitspatterns. My old habit with my ex is to get scared and cower and go limp and do nothing. I applaud you for putting your foot down!!!!!
You're my hero.
-
Bludie, you are feeling angry because he is not treating you with any respect, caring or recognition. You SUPPOSED to feel angry when someone treats you that way. It shows that you value and care about yourself. Anger is energy you can use to get what you need and what you want in life.
I say don't suppress or avoid the anger at all, welcome it in and feel all of it. I think the natural fear is that if you're angry you'll get out of control and act just like him. My experience is going out of control comes from trying to deny or displace my angry feelings onto someone else, just like he always does. When I accept that they are my precious feelings and that these feelings are all about me. When I am able to lovingly invite my feelings to be more present and value them, all the pressure disappears. It becomes clear what I need and want to do about the situation, and the feelings give me all the energy I need to take those actions.
It's a horrible situation. It's about him. You can still value, learn and grow from your reaction to the situation. I invite you to share all the details that you are comfortable with. There are a lot of people here who care about you.
-
bludie,
If this guy wants your money, let him take you to court. Threatening phone calls isn't going to cut it. I hope you get a TRO against him today! He needs to be put in his place by the legal system.
The reason a crazy person can make you upset is because their craziness attacks your psyche in any vulnerable crack in the armor. He could do this to anyone, it's not because anything is wrong with you. Sociopaths are skilled at pushing people's buttons.
Keep posting and let us know how it goes.
bunny
-
Hi Bludie,
I have just logged on and I'm shocked at what you have been going through. My heart goes out to you,and like the others I am full of admiration for you.Despite being so shaken, you are behaving with such dignity.
On the other hand your ex is behaving like a toddler in a supermarket who can't have the chocolate bar he wants at the checkout. His true colours are really showing now. I don't know but hopefully this will be his final flourish and then you can focus on your recovery with no manipulative intrusions from him.
Thinking of you,
Lara.
-
bludie:
Call your lawyer and tell him to get a restraining order whatever. I remember when a friend of mine divorced her N bipolar. She would have the neighbors saying to her that the N was parking in the early morning AM hours, stalking her house. They knew this because he was parking outside the neighbors house. They would have to go out at 3AM to tell him to leave, or the cops would be called. It is useless to cope with this guy. He needs a cop to land a 2 x 4 up side his head. He will get the message when it really begins to cost him. No more nice nice Patz
-
Hello all,
Again, your support has been invaluable. Thank you. Trying to explain this to others who have never lost their "voice" is futile. So coming here and having others know exactly what I'm experiencing is more than comforting. It's solace.
The PD captain in my community told me that a formal report hadn't even been filed last night :x He hemmed and hawed a bit then conceded that one should have been filed. They are remedying the situation and a report will be on record. If my ex-N persists, I can press harassment charges. Won't bat an eye. I'll just do it. I'll call the cops. I HAVE NOT been pole vaulting over mouse turds. Anyone who continues to call 5 times after a police warning is, at the very least, off balance.
I also contacted the local domestic violence agency. This ticked me off because after watching my mother's abuse, I swore I'd never repeat history. Anyway, they will help me file a civil order of protection. That way if he starts calling again or shows up (he said he'd be back in a couple weeks to move the rest of his belongings from storage) I am armed with a reason to call the PD and have him hauled off. (You're right Patz. No more Missus Nice Nice).
I am exhausted. I am sad. I ran on adrenaline and high alert for many hours and the older I am the longer it takes to recover. I'd like to shoot myself for saying this but it's key, I think, in understanding the "hooks" that got me here in the first place.
Now that the phone calls have stopped, and he is likely on his way out of town, I am let down and deflated. Go figure. It's not that I want this insanity but in a very pitiful way it's attention. My ex-AM flew the coop and started a brand new life within a couple weeks of our breakup. I, on the otherhand, have been painstakingly walking through the gamut of emotions. Starting up another relationship is THE LAST thing I'd want to do now. Even though I was the one to say bye bye, he was primed and ready to leave. I am still sad that I've been so easily replaced. I don't want him in my life but don't want to feel disposed of either....It sounds lame as I'm writing this but I wanted to let that go. Shame or no.
So the crisis has passed. I managed to get through the business day but life has a surreal quality again. I wonder how many days it will be until life normalcy returns. And then when it does, will he be back for another round of crazy-making?
My outward demeanor has been angry and tough. Inside I am broken-hearted and disquieted. This too shall pass. Thanks again all.
Best,
bludie
-
bludie,
I'm glad you took those steps to protect yourself from this sociopath. Sorry the police were lame about it, though.
I can understand being deflated after all the drama and hearing his voice so many times.
Even if he was shallow enough to move on to another woman, it doesn't make him better off than you. I'd say he is seriously f*ed up and his life is a chaotic mess. He also seems to need money. He's seriously dysfunctional and the woman who has him now is setting herself up for disaster. This isn't about winning a prize. It's more like stepping into a booby trap.
I'm glad he's gone and hope once he moves all his pitiful belongings, that he won't be back.
bunny
-
He also seems to need money. He's seriously dysfunctional and the woman who has him now is setting herself up for disaster. This isn't about winning a prize. It's more like stepping into a booby trap.
So true. Getting that knowledge to work its way from my head to my heart is the bottleneck (literally :wink: ) but I'll get there.
He's living the high life. Large egos cost money to inflate with props, properties and materialism. When we first moved in together I watched the stream of major purchases: house, cottage, car, boat, large soundproof music room -- all in the span of 4 or 5 months. It was wild. Even though my one income is less and I'm in school my checkbook balances and I don't feel deprived. Too much information, perhaps. It was the farcical world he lived in and tried to show off for all the world to see. I was just another prop in the grand scheme. :cry:
Whatever. I'll cry tomorrow. Scarlett was right. Rhett just ain't worth it!
bludie
-
Bless you Bludie. I'm sending you peace of mind, calm and relief...and some good sleep. You are wonderful. Repeat after me: I am calm, I am peaceful, I am powerful and secure.... There is always an emotional let down after a rush of "survival" adrenaline. Nothing wrong with you at all...you're just a fully, functional, feeling woman ...and he's an F---- nut case (add your own F's: fun for the feeble minded!)
Relax a bit....breathe... You are still my hero today.
-
Bludie,
I had to get out to work, didn't have time to post much. I was getting a negative feeling on the Idea you wanted to help with money.
I'm reading other posts here and would agree go to court have him fight for the money. You give an inch to him he will want the whole mile.
Keep up the way your going. You can be angry, its what gives you the energy to protect yourself.
I will write later got to go for now
Onlyrenting
-
bludie:
From: "Narcissism, Denial of the True Self" by Dr. Alexander Lowen:
Behavior that is injurious to or destructive of others can only be fully understood in terms of the denial of feling, the goal of winning, and the image of power. Executives who exploit their employees and con artists who swindle elderly pensioners operate on the same principle. Both fail to see others as real people; in their eyes, others exist only as objects to be used.. Specifically, the elderly pensioners are not seen as human bengs, because the swindlers don't see themselves in human terms. They live by their wits and are indentified with their ability to otsmart or outmaneuver others. That they lie or cheat is unimportant to the goal of winning or thier ego image of superiority based on their ab ilty to put one over on the other person.
bludie: I think this N falls into this catagory. He will only understand fire with fire. He does not see you as a person with feelings. You are an object standing in the way of his desires. He wants your money, he simply thinks he is deserving of only the "best". He is living by his wits. He uses people like kleenex. The greasy wheel gets the oil. Make sure the police have every report on hand. It is sad, but you have to advocate for yourself. It will take energy (and yes it made me feel really drained and old as well) but you must and you will prevail. Much love, Patz
-
onlyrenting:
I was getting a negative feeling on the Idea you wanted to help with money.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, onlyrenting. I know you're in the midst of your own private hell, so I appreciate your taking time to respond. I don't want to help him with money so much as to alleviate my guilt (founded or not). I truly want to move on, learn and grow from this. Anger, guilt or shame will hold me back. So I will take time and try to discern the best way to proceed on the financial issue. Fact is, I was emancipated before turning 18 years of age. My social worker actually arranged for me to live elsewhere before I was legally an adult. Anyway, I've always tried to be self-sufficient. Truth is I wouldn't be in this home if my ex-N hadn't contributed toward the down payment. Yes, yes, yes. I can tabulate all I've lost financially and what he left me with (a big debt) but am still not able to get past the fact it was his money, plain and simple. Maybe I'll change my mind. Everyone I've talked to says I don't owe him. For the time being I'll do nothing. But I have made a decision to tuck away some money each month in another account. When I've accrued what I feel is a reasonable settlement, I may contact my attorney (and we're talking a couple years from now unless an unexpected windfall occurs) and have him send this on my behalf to my ex-N with an agreement that all debts (moral or otherwise) are paid in full. This will help alleviate my guilt for now but not propel me into another emotionally-laden decision.
He will only understand fire with fire. He does not see you as a person with feelings. You are an object standing in the way of his desires. He wants your money, he simply thinks he is deserving of only the "best". He is living by his wits. He uses people like kleenex. The greasy wheel gets the oil.
This is so unfortunately true, Patz. Knowing this intellectually seems to only address one part of the problem for me. The other part seems to be of a spiritual nature. I won't get too trippy here. But I've been asking myself what the spirtual lesson in all of this is. So far I've come up with only more questions. But I would like to get to a point where I can truly in my heart think of my ex-N-fiance and feel: "Live and be well." That will come in time. For now, as all of you have wisely advocated, I am doing a CYA through the legal system. :(
Best,
bludie
-
Truth is I wouldn't be in this home if my ex-N hadn't contributed toward the down payment. Yes, yes, yes. I can tabulate all I've lost financially and what he left me with (a big debt) but am still not able to get past the fact it was his money, plain and simple.
You mean, it's okay for you to lose your money [because of him], but he shouldn't have to lose a penny of his money? There were financial consequences to his choices but he feels entitled not to pay a dime of them. I would keep the house and enjoy every square foot of it.
and have him send this on my behalf to my ex-N with an agreement that all debts (moral or otherwise) are paid in full.
Your ex-N won't think the debts are paid in full. I think you're wasting your time taking the high road with a sociopath. My philosophy would be to get away from him, no contact for any reason, not even through an attorney, no matter what. And give the money to some charity. He's a very scary person. I'd want him to forget I ever existed.
I think a sociopath has little fragments of caring about someone but they can't sustain it for more than a few seconds. This isn't about your worthiness in his eyes, it's about your worthiness in your parents' eyes. That was the problem.
bunny
-
This isn't about your worthiness in his eyes, it's about your worthiness in your parents' eyes. That was the problem.
Ouch. That hurt, bunny, because it's the truth. I'm in between appts. but logged on quickly and had to respond. I may post another thread to give this thought due diligence. It may very well be the crux to the "hook" that's snagged me (or I keep snagging myself on) in this and other situations.
Best,
bludie
PS - bunny, you seem very certain about his sociopathology. What facets from my posts substantiate this in your estimation? I am not questioning it. I am just very curious and want to learn more. Thanks!
-
bludie,
I am not certain he's a sociopath but I believe he is one. A sociopath is a type of narcissist who is extremely predatory, mercenary, and uninterested in fairness, legalities, etc. They want money and material things and they will get them no matter who they destroy, con, screw over, frighten, etc. In fact they get gratification from doing bad things to others. They also enjoy doing things that are illegal or shady and getting away with it.
His threatening phone calls to you; especially his calls to others to discredit you, and creepy phone calls from others at his behest, lead me to think he won't hesitate to take what he wants. He isn't easily discouraged by legality or the police. Hence, I'd prefer it if he lost interest in me and saw me as not worth his trouble.
bunny
-
bludie:
I have an excellent book at home entitled "Who's Pulling Your Strings?" by Harriet B. Braiker, Ph.D. It is a book on how to break the cycle of manipulation by sociopaths, borderlines, narcs, and others that we currently deal with. I found a particular chapter that has so info that might be helpful.
Labeling the Manipulation:
As long as the slient contact between you and the manipulator remains in tact, the power of the manipulation will as well. However, whey you disrupt the collusion and reveal the hidden agenda by clearly and directly labeling the interaction as a manipulation, the power balance will realign in your direction. The essence of this reistance is for you to describe in direct language exactly what the manipulator is doing. By describing the manipulation OUT LOUD, you will go a long way toward disrupting and ultimately foiling the manipulator's purposes. The best way to analyze the manipulation is to use what I refer to with my patients as the "ABCD formula." This model will help you to identify the connections between the manipulator's tactics and your feelings.
Behavior A: When you do (describe what the manipulator does that you find unpleasant, hurtful, or uncomfortable (in your case the multiple phone calls, interrupting your day etc.)
Emotion B: I feel (state the emotion you feel). This makes me feel so frustrated because we have been over this situation before and there is no need to rehash it.
Alternative behavior C I fyou would stop doing (the calling etc, demand for money) and if you would instead do (concentrate on your life and what you brother is going to need).
Emotion D: I would feel (that we are both moving ahead with our lives)
Here is an example form the analysis of one of my patients who had a highly manipulative husband. Here is what she said to him:
A. "When you raise your voice and yell at me,
B. I feel afraid and anxious
C. If you would just stop yelling and ask me what you want in a calm voice,
D. I would feel a lot more respected and valued."
Bludie I am not sure any of this matters at this point with your N, he may not care how you feel, but alternatively this may be a way to handle the phone calls next time. I feel that the phone calls are clearly designed to "wear you down" to get what he wants, because he has no other avenue to obtain his objectives. They are designed solely to badger you into submission. Make him really work at it. When he calls:
I need some time to think about what your saying. I'll get back to you just as soon as I can. Then hang up.
This issue deserves some real consideration, so I'll need a bit of time to think it over, and I'll let you know as soon as I can. Then hang up.
I can't give you an answer right now. I will certainly think it over, and I'll get back to you as soon as possible."
I 'm not in a position right now to answer that, but I will get back to you when I am.
This is an important issue, and I will need some time to give it thought it deserves. Then of course, I will, get back to you.
Just never back "to" it. Make him work at his manipulation. Better still put it on your answering machine it he insists on using your phone. Alternate the above responses. He only gets the answering machine with these little ditties and never really gets to speak to you. Hah! Patz
PS I lately used one of these latest responses on my shark stock broker. Truly worked.
-
Thank you so much, Patz, for giving this some thought and taking the time to pass along this technique. You have me curious as to what clients you work with or your line of work....
Anyway, I will print your step-by-step method, and the excellent sound bytes, to have on hand if/when he calls. Yesterday I felt better after some sleep and the fact the barrage of phone calls had eneded. Today I am not doing as well. I almost have an auditory echo -- a visceral litany -- of things he said perambulating through my mind. Yuck.
I think it (contact) may be over. Maybe wishful thinking but something tells me it is. He sounded so defeated in his last couple of VMs (You win, bludie. Take it. You've now managed to steal over $--thousand dollars from me. You say you live a spiritual life. You say you try to live honestly. This proves that you don't." Sorry for going on and on a little here but it helps to purge this toxic stuff from my head.
He further went onto say that my friend, whom he phoned late in the night when so clearly inebriated, said that my ex-N should let it all go. That I will suffer in the long run because my dishonesty will "eat at me a little bit every day for the rest of your life."
For over 4 months I either hung up or ignored his calls, quickly erasing the voice mails (some without even listening to). I was hypervigilant about no contact because:I was too hurt and distraught
Afraid I would lash out, say reactionary things I'd regret
Allude to how emotionally trashed I had become over HIM (this would have fed his ego big-time)
Perpetuate the tit-for-tat or he-said/she-said cycle[/list:u] Perhaps I should have tried to discuss things with him. Too late now. My no contact method may have reinforced his conclusion that I was trying to rip him off. It wasn't that at all. It was sheerly self-preservation and a huge awakening that no matter what I said, it would fall on deaf ears.
Again, thank you for letting me elaborate, here. The emotional hang-nail I am wrestling with this morning is whether to contact my friend (the one he phoned late in the evening) to try and ascertain if there really was a discussion. I had very much valued this friend's opinion and insight throughout the five years I knew or interacted with he and his wife. It could very well be that my ex-N was totally lying. If I call this friend to confirm the situation, I am very afraid I'll learn that he does side with my ex-N. This would reinforce my insecurity on whether I have handled this okay. I am trying to break the lifelong habit of needing others' approval to feel okay.
Not sure what to do. Perhaps nothing at all. Just sit with the feelings and allow them to pass. Thank you very much for listening and any feedback is very welcome.
Best,
bludie
-
Bludie: I am not clairvoyent, but I believe you are at the end of this. Like a chicken with it's head cut off (sorry, I'm vegetarian, but that image works) he will continue to lash out (your friend "contact") but eventually drop dead (wouldn't that be nice?).
I think you should follow your gut NOT to do anything out of emotional reaction right now. It all will pass. When you are calm you may or may not want to contact that friend, for now... let it lie. It doesn't matter anyway. The real stuff, the true stuff, you know already. Your life is about how YOU feel about things. You are doing so well.
-
Thank you, mum. I think that's exactly the approach I'll take, for today anyway. And so what if he did contact my friend? And so what if my friend actually does think less of me? I shall keep in mind the wisdom of Dr. Suess
So say what you mean and do what you feel. Those who matter won't mind and those who mind, won't matter. (something like that -- hope I didn't botch it too badly) 8)
Best,
bludie
-
He sounded so defeated in his last couple of VMs (You win, bludie. Take it. You've now managed to steal over $--thousand dollars from me. You say you live a spiritual life. You say you try to live honestly. This proves that you don't."
I'm glad you relayed this because it reaffirms what I think of him. He is a huge manipulator who will say whatever he thinks will work to get what he wants. It's all garbage. If he thinks appealing to your "honesty" and "spirituality" will get him the money, he plays that card. That's what this is about. Please don't take the bait to prove your spirituality to this hustler!
He further went onto say that my friend, whom he phoned late in the night when so clearly inebriated, said that my ex-N should let it all go. That I will suffer in the long run because my dishonesty will "eat at me a little bit every day for the rest of your life."
(A) Who knows if your friend said that. (B) If your friend said that, he is no friend of yours. He sounds like The Godfather!
Perhaps I should have tried to discuss things with him.
I don't think so. There is nothing to discuss with a manipulator like him. All you can do is fend him off in the ways suggested by Patz. Remember "The Loser" article? It tells you how to deal with people like your ex. www.joecarver.com
My feedback is not to call your friend for the following reasons: (A) Most people don't want to be dragged into these disputes and start distancing from both partners as a result; (B) Your friend will make his own decisions about you, and if he doesn't know enough to value your character over the sociopath's, he's no friend of yours anyway.
bunny
-
Hi Bludie,
I just want to comment on what you said about 'my no-contact method may have reinforced his conclusion that I was trying to rip him off.'
I agree with you that when we choose non-contact, it does mean that our exes are free to interpret our silence in any way they choose, and with their often bizarre thought processes, their interpretation may be a long way from our reality.This is certainly very frustrating, especially if they can't or won't base their interpretation on what they 'should' know of our characters.
As you said, this is a price that we are paying for our 'self-preservation,' to avoid getting involved in fruitless exchanges, or subjecting ourselves to either deliberate or offhand cruelty.
Keep strong dear Bludie,
Sincerely,
Lara.
-
You're right, Lara, it is frustrating that their interpretation is so scewed from our reality.......but: at a certai point, who cares? If we don't they can't hurt us.
My ex convinced lots of people that he repeatedly cheated on me because I wouldn't let him be part of the family (ie, I wouldn't let him be irresponsible with the children, I didn't agree with his punitive parenting methods, he left for long periods of time during which he screwed other women, he berated and verbally abused me and then was angry that I wasn't interested in sex with him...at 2 am when he came home drunk repeatedly). There! That felt good!
But the bottom line is this: who cares who believes what. I know my truth, and I am content with that. Why would I want his sick family and naive friends to like me anyway? I like me.
-
Such wonderful wisdom, ladies. Lara, thanks for your perspective. I know you've recently experienced a painful bout with your ex-N, so I appreciate your support.
You're right no contact left him to fill in the blanks. But really this was the case most all along. In classic N-fashion he really had little empathy for anyone (not lasting). Even his children were a secondary consideration. I think he had moments of shame or guilt; usually at night when he couldn't sleep. But he kept himself in pursuit of so many things and steeped in so much drama that guilt was a fragment emotion, as bunny suggested.
Well, I believe we're getting through all of this. With each other's help, of course. I feel I have some wonderful virtual friends here. Thank you.
Best,
bludie
-
Oh, bunny. I reread the Carver article. It reaffirmed much of what I needed to hear today. I did handle things okay despite what he, my friend, or even my mother ('did you really call the police?') think.
I know few people in this community. When downtown today, however, I bumped into a woman who met and knew my ex-N. She asked how things were going and I gave her a brief recap. She is a very reserved and diplomatic person. But she told me that she never had a good feeling about him from the first time they met. My daughter was with me and they both agreed he is/was a horse's arse. We all sort of chuckled actually. The laughter was a welcome relief (laughing and crying the same relief).
So, these little things prop me up when my resolve is low or my brain reverts to 'if onlys.'
Best,
bludie
-
bludie:
I think mum, bunny and the rest who have weighed in on contacting the "friend" is correct. Anything you would say would fall into "methinks you doth protest" to much catagory.
Most narcs go to friends, or anyone else for that matter, when things begin to fall apart to devalue you and the relationship. It is a familiar pattern with all of them. Your true friends will just look at him with crossed eyes and go "say it ain't so!" LOL.
In reply to your question on my line of work. Well I used to teach school, I was a child of a dysfunctional family with a narc as head of the household for about 20 years, I was a parent to my mother, I had my on physical issues (asthma, eczema until teen years), married a engineer who was also a narc, cared for a ill mother-in-law, and am currently taking care of an autistic son.
The following qualifications are not to make you feel sorry or to respond in , ahem, awe (LOL) but to let you know that by virtue of surviving this chaos, I am still mentally (some would question) intact! I have learned over the years that "this shall pass" is really true. What you think is so horrific and no solution in sight, is really passing. You look at the people around you (say the narcs) right now..........just where do you think these people are going to be in your life in 12 months, 5 years, etc. Probably nowhere.
I finished reading article in SmartMoney magazine (this months) on what make's people happy. They found it is not the money that makes you happy, although those living on the edge would question that. What makes you happy is good relationships in your family, with your spouse and spending time with your children. Rich people do not have money only wealthy people have money. The difference is that rich people are rich in those things that truly give meaning to life. They interviewed people from around the world. The Masi tribes of the Serengeti were happy. By all appearances they lived in mud huts, wore grass skirts, carried spears, hunted each day.....but were happy. Why? Because most of the investments they eskewed as important revolved around their families.
Most of us responding at this site (global statement) suffer from very dysfuntional families, with narc SO. We long for these connections. We want them in the people that brought us into the world. Such has never been the case with me. I have had to make my own place, my own home for myself and son. I have made that soft place to land. If you have been reading some of my other posts, I had to get on the boat and set my own sail. No one else would do it for me. I did not say it did not come with pain and suffering. Success nevertheless came.
I encourage all of you not to settle. To settle for second best. By all accounts woman are likely to live to 85. Just what part of this 85 years are you willing to spend on people who do not love you, do not appreciate you? This is an investment that has gone belly up. Press on to the mark that God has meant for you to achieve. Life is truly a journey, where you end up is up to you and God.
Even though I have worked through many issues, I still have outstanding
issues with narcs in my family. My own brothers, but I recognize them for who they are. I take the parts I can stand and work with that, and work around the narc parts. I have a brother I have not spoken to in 2 years. I currently have another narc brother who is very manipulative when I call. I just know to whom I am speaking and recognize the narc parts for what they are. In this respect even though he feels he has control over the conversation, he really doesn't. I pick and choose what I will and will nto tolerate. You have to be very clear with narcs in this respect. Be blunt if you have to so no ambiguty exists in the information you are conveying. It they deny you said such and such, I just reply, that's your problem itsn't it? Then just go on. Over time you learn to build that wall between you and narcs so the hurtful does not penetrate, and it becomes like water off a duck's back. Narcs spend a lot of time with the "hooks". They knew were the soft spots are. These are the very spots you have to toughen up so the hooks cannot go in.
What do you care if they regard you less than...... respond to them as if you are mirroring their conversation. The key word here is care. You cannot care, as narcs view you less than human in the first place. I think we all are puzzled by the fact others can go through life not "caring". Swindlers mostly take money, narcs are swindlers of the "emotions". They suck up every last drop and cannot understand why you cannot give more. They are truly vapid creatures.
I post here because I am continue to learn.. it helps me to know there are others with as much insight and I might just be missing something important that I need to know. Much love to all, Patz
-
Patz: thank you. Your last post was inspiring, and for me, wonderful timing.
-
Thanks very much, Patz, for elaborating. Now that some of my emotions have subsided, I am seeing this for what it is: the coup de grace of emotional blackmail and guilt warfare. He certainly made his mark this week but it's not going to prompt any overt action on my part. I will not contact the friend and make him the tribunal in this situation.
Also, I will not do anything financially. This was never about the money for me. I was comfortable and secure prior to him. We weren't living lavishly but my daughter and I had everything we needed. I can see now that the biggest draw was how he made me feel (in the beginning) and then what kept me was the familiar hooks (highly dysfunctional) from childhood.
You have all been wonderful in helping me sort through this. I am not nearly as undone by what happened this week as was the case last fall when we broke up. Thank you one and all.
Hugs,
bludie