Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: write on February 13, 2005, 03:03:25 AM
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Thanks all for your support and replies below.
I was thinking about it long and hard, & these are my immediate thoughts and feelings.
* for those of us who've lived with a narcissist or other emotionally impaired person not only have we lived without real intimacy/ closeness for a long time, we've been made to feel it was our fault & something wrong with us & WE'RE NEVER GOING TO BE REALLY APPRECIATED/LOVED....
So the first person who comes along and offers any crumb of intimacy, it's so needed- even if it's just a handful of crumbs from someone who has picked up on our vulnerability & worked out if they're kind we'll do something for them.
* which brings me to my next point: QESTION THIS! unless someone has known and loved you reciprocally as a friend for years: view with suspicion anyone who is attracted to you when you're at a low point, or who wants to help you.
There are kind people, thank goodness, and they'll prove their worth and kindness over time no matter what we do.
But also there are people- I hesitate to say it, but mainly men, for whom the nurturing thing isn't quite a social norm for most- who are drawn to vulnerable women, women who are feeling & maybe even looking unattractive... WOMEN WHO ARE GRATEFUL FOR EVERY BIT OF ATTENTION THROWN THEIR WAY.
And why? It's nice to tell ourselves we've finally found the perfect person of our dreams...but more likely it's they're insecure, have major problems of their own- which you won't know for a while because it switches so subtly from you being supported to being t\support- or the plans they have in mind ( multiple-relationships, cheating etc ) would not be accepted or sustained by someone in a good place emotionally.
*which brings me to my next point- why not just accept the crumbs of comfort for a while?
Because such a person is- you guessed it- incapable of real intimacy so once you let them clsoe and expect more, you'll be let down and your sense of 'what's wrong with me?' will be even stronger.
There are times in our lives for accepting second-best situations...when we're at our most vulnerable and recovering from severe pain isn't one of them.
Value and protect yourself for a long time after any trauma.
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Write,
I struggle with this issue constantly. I am a person who really enjoys the physical aspects of a relationship, but obviously want the mental to be there as well. Since my marriage was so devoid of any kind of intimacy, I was quick to go in search of it after the separation. I found someone who was very interested in the physical and we had strong chemistry in that regard, but there was never any mental attachment. I think it was a good transitional relationship for me and gave me the affirmation of my desirability as a woman (which my husband had crushed in me) at the time, but I would never want another relationship like that again. Fortunately my therapist convinced me to end it once it was doing more harm than good. I'm not sure I would have done it on my own.
I have gotten much stronger and more discerning since then and have learned to take it slow and sure. I know that I am still desirable and attractive and don't need that affirmation any longer. Long ago I decided that I would never enter into a long-term relationship with a man until he had visited with my therapist for several sessions. I trust that my therapist will be able to weed out someone who would not be a healthy person for me. I have gotten pretty good at seeing the red flags (sometimes I think that's all I see) and rarely go out with anyone more than once. It is a scarry place to go after being married for so many years, but I am such a relationship oriented person that I cannot imagine a life alone, but will continue to be alone (not lonely) until the right person comes along.
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write, I agree that accepting crumbs when you want the whole cake is depressing and not worth it. I made a rule for myself when I was single, after some crumb-relationships, that I must not do it anymore, as it was killing me spiritually.
Brigid, I agree that a rebound or fling-type deal isn't a bad thing if both parties are single and have a pleasant time that is respectful. For instance if both people are on vacation from distant places and won't ever see each other again. Obviously a fling needs to be brief so it can be a nostalgic memory and not get depressing. If I were a man who wanted to date you, I would not agree to be interviewed by your therapist, though. And I'd be pretty freaked out by that requirement. I don't even know if your therapist would 'vet' men for you. Maybe you aren't ready yet to trust yourself but you will be. Most men are fairly benign, not like your exN.
bunny
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Write, I think you pretty much nailed it, as its seems a lot of us fell for the "crumbs" and if we were lucky, figured that out.
Brigid, by the time you are ready, the person you can love and trust will be there. YOU will know....because you have learned to trust yourself entirely by then, and you won't need your therapist to tell you what you will know in your heart.
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Mum and Bunny,
I know you are right and my therapist tells me the same thing. I have had men tell me that would be more than willing to go through the "interview", but I have been no where near far along enough in a relationship to even consider such a thing. I would see it more as a joint experience to help us get off on the right foot with communication, etc. I'm sure over time I will learn to trust my own judgment much better than I do now and the therapy has made my eyes open to many things.
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brigid- maybe they were just being polite if you asked them on the spot and they wouldn't follow thru in the end. what it would tell me if that was asked to me just at the beginning of even getting to know somebody-was that they were not trusting enough overall to be in a relation with me.i'd know there would be other problems too for us about that persons readiness for a relationship and i would probably leave it alone.
but you have alot of insight about yourself and i admire you and like everyone said i know you will come to trust yourself in time for sure.
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I feel the same about intimacy as you wrote it. As a man, you always want to feel you are doing the right things to make your woman happy. I am so afraid of my own shadow now because I feel like women will freak on me about insecurities that I am unaware of. I just dont understand why telling somebody they look nice when you walk into a room can be upsetting. I dont understand how watching television and talking about the scene without any sexual conotation can upset a woman so bad. I wish I understood this N stuff, I wish I could have said something different to save what I cherished. I dont trust myself because I dont want a woman to use me again. Again, as a guy, we want to do the right thing-if we make a mistake, we want to sincerely appologize but not walk on eggshells. I dont know why, but I feel like less than a man because I offended somebody I care about. It wasnt intentional, I dont understand how she could etch it stone and accept what I was trying to say wasnt a personal hit on her career. I just wanted to talk about life, not death.
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Bkkabri,
A woman who is your significant other and of a healthy mind would not go off on you if you suggested an intimate encounter. If the relationship is healthy, it should be welcome and enjoyed by both parties involved. Imagine what is like to have been a woman who was constantly rejected by her husband. In no real world is that ever suppose to happen. And out of respect for him, I never talked about it with anyone and always pretended we had a "normal", healthy sex life.
I might suggest you find a good divorce support group where these issues are discussed with members of the opposite sex in a relatively relaxed and unthreatening setting. I am in such a group and it has been very helpful to hear the perspective of both genders who have come from a myriad of divorce situations and are in all different places time-wise in the process. You learn how much better you will be down the road from those further away from it and you see how far you've come (if appropriate), from those who are newer. It does provide hope for the future and a sense of accomplishment for your own healing.
You need to stop thinking that this was your fault or anything you could have changed. That is wasted energy and totally unfounded. If this site has done nothing else for me, it is to drive home the point that this marriage was an accident waiting to happen and it was just a matter of time and there is nothing I could have said or done differently to change that.
Brigid
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I am so afraid of my own shadow now because I feel like women will freak on me about insecurities that I am unaware of. I just dont understand why telling somebody they look nice when you walk into a room can be upsetting. I dont understand how watching television and talking about the scene without any sexual conotation can upset a woman so bad.
BK,
I was just curious about something. I don't know from your story so far (sorry if you said & I missed it), whether you've dated anyone seriously before this woman. Have you?
I will comment after your reply, as what I will say depends on what it is.
BT
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glad I'm not alone in my conclusions.
Just got to learn to live with them totally now...for example what prompted me to write then was an insecurity/ anxiety attack and a few obsessive thoughts about a guy I dropped because things were not working ( ie he was jerking me around and being evasive when asked for explanations )
I KNOW 100% one thing: UNLESS I HAVE A REALLY GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH MYSELF I"M NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO BE IN A REALLY GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMEONE ELSE...I'd just fall into the same patterns and meet someone with the potential to hurt me or erode my self-esteem. It really isn't worth it, is it, for a few kisses or being held or sex or whatever...feeling good for a few moments won't keep at bay the recurrence of that feeling of emptiness and loneliness which comes from half a relationship. That's what I need to remind myself constantly: that I'm stronger and happier on my own than trying to make something/ someone seem right in my mind when it's not.
*sigh*
I think I need to remind myself of a little humour now before I get sad about the last brief relationship with amazing potential- to be both great and abusive:
( more ) British poet Wendy Cope~
Two Cures for Love
1.Don't see him. Don't phone or write a letter
2.The easy way: get to know him better.
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UNLESS I HAVE A REALLY GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH MYSELF I"M NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO BE IN A REALLY GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMEONE ELSE...I'd just fall into the same patterns and meet someone with the potential to hurt me or erode my self-esteem. It really isn't worth it, is it, for a few kisses or being held or sex or whatever...feeling good for a few moments won't keep at bay the recurrence of that feeling of emptiness and loneliness which comes from half a relationship
So well said & it helped me a lot to read that, as it really resonated with me. This is exactly where I am now, as well. Your writing about reminding yourself of that is helping me to keep reminding myself of everything you said above. Trying to have a better relationship with myself(biiiigie), and relating that to relationships, same thing in every way.
It really begins with us, first....
BT
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I have had relationships before, but my last one before was with a bulimic who was throwing up in my shower. I walk into a relationship with somebody offering myself as a person. Being understanding to their needs and having them respect mine. I look to become their best friend and have them be mine. My current ex has left me for an Indian doctor because she is obessed with her career as a nurse practioner. I am not being racist but she condemned Middle Eastern people for scamming our medicare system. Now she is with him because the conversation about her patient load stimulates her. I wanted to talk about her day, but I cant help her because I dont know anything about it. I simply requested to talk English so I could understand. I just saw her at the mall and she dyed her hair black from being a blond. It looked like she is trying to look more like she is Indian. She is polish. I just dont understand how my talking can make somebody so insecure. I am an outgoing person with alot of friends. Its like she was competing with me for attention. I didnt want to compete, I wanted to share. I know people are sick of this, but this is the woman I wanted to marry. She said she loved me and now its faded because I dont respect her job. Why is a career more important than family and friends and why does this doctor get what claimed to love me. Will she freak out again or was it me that caused this?
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Bkkabri, you need to stop asking yourself questions that you will never have the answer for. Life can suck sometimes. Relationships can suck, but you will live another day. I think you waste a lot of time and energy wondering what in the heck you did wrong in that relationship and not enough time on working on your future. When do you think you're going to stop your wondering and move forward? What do you personally think it's going to take?
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I have had relationships before, but my last one before was with a bulimic who was throwing up in my shower. I walk into a relationship with somebody offering myself as a person. Being understanding to their needs and having them respect mine. I look to become their best friend and have them be mine. My current ex has left me for an Indian doctor because she is obessed with her career as a nurse practioner. I am not being racist but she condemned Middle Eastern people for scamming our medicare system. Now she is with him because the conversation about her patient load stimulates her. I wanted to talk about her day, but I cant help her because I dont know anything about it. I simply requested to talk English so I could understand. I just saw her at the mall and she dyed her hair black from being a blond. It looked like she is trying to look more like she is Indian. She is polish. I just dont understand how my talking can make somebody so insecure. I am an outgoing person with alot of friends. Its like she was competing with me for attention. I didnt want to compete, I wanted to share. I know people are sick of this, but this is the woman I wanted to marry. She said she loved me and now its faded because I dont respect her job. Why is a career more important than family and friends and why does this doctor get what claimed to love me. Will she freak out again or was it me that caused this?
Please don't think I am being hurtful to you but I really think you need to move on. You have posted your entire history with your ex and we have all sympathised with you. I don't understand why you still engage with her on msn, I don't understand why you think she is 'competing' with you by going to the mall? The msn 'conversation' you posted seemed to imply that she is completely over her relationship with you but you don't feel the same?
You really need to let her go or the 'idealised fantasy' you built up around her.
It is not helping YOU being stuck.................... I hope you know I have posted this with the best intentions.
Kindest regards.
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Brian: I think I may have asked you this before, but here goes again:
What do you want?
Not, what you don't want (we all know that one) but what do you want?
You have GOT to be a more interesting person than your story.
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I guess like before I'm working stuff out on here, sort-of therapy ( I know Richard won't mind )
It is SO hard to have gotten to almost 40 and not have had what it feels like almost everyone else has: years of holding hands, feeling special sometimes and at least regular if not fantastic sex; good memories of birthdays, christmases, holidays, activities; no stress or pain, at least for periods of time.
I can't think of a single thing which hasn't been tainted first from my abusive childhood, then my abusive marriages. It's like two and a half decades have been lost in some way, all my young years.
And whilst I can see the many positives that my life experiences have brought me: empathy, knowledge and experience, courage and several abilities- I need to mourn the life I wanted and didn't get.
And each new abusive man ( and my reaction to him ) who really touches a chord with me is attuned to that- pretence for a while that he can give me what years of disappointment and frustration have taken away.
I can't tell you how cathartic it was to type that, I've been struggling to come to some kind of recognition for months.
Remember the Wendy Cope I posted several times before:
Defining the problem
I can't forgive you. Even if I could,
You wouldn't pardon me for seeing through you
And yet I cannot cure myself of love
For what I thought you were before I knew you.
*****
I may have moved on but there's still part of me doing this, hoping to cure the past with something from the present.
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I am so afraid of my own shadow now because I feel like women will freak on me about insecurities that I am unaware of. I just dont understand why telling somebody they look nice when you walk into a room can be upsetting. I dont understand how watching television and talking about the scene without any sexual conotation can upset a woman so bad.
I have had relationships before
BK,
Related to your first quote above, I was going to say that even if you’ve experienced other problems with other women, you might be able to see that they were not the same problems as with your ex. In other words, telling 90 something percent of women they look nice, or making benign conversation about a tv. scene will not cause problems (quite the contrary for the 2nd). Point is, you don’t have to fear most of the specific same kinds of things happening again across the board with women.
But as far as just generally attracting more healthy relationships, nobody will get to be “perfect” but it comes down to getting fairly healthy emotionally inside yourself first. I am working on that one now, too. Then you will see a huge change in how the women you meet communicate with you and act with you.
Nothing will have happened with "women", it will just be that you will be attracting different kinds of people because you will have become a little different, too. We all could use to heal & grow in these ways. I think it's just a natural part of being human.
Know that healthy minded women will show compassion regarding any insecurities you might have, and want to be your partner in your self growth. They will be very happy your shared your fears with them. And more healthy minded women will not act out their own insecurities in devastating and pathological ways.
why does this doctor get what claimed to love me. Will she freak out again or was it me that caused this?
Bingo. If she genuinely has a personality disorder such as NPD or BPD, there is no doubt that she will “freak out” again with the new guy. Personality disorders are created within the host person and acted out on their partners. They aren’t caused by their partners.
If she has one of these disorders, her state of being came into place long before she met you, and will remain long after now. Pretty sad for her, actually.
It must be painful to actually have to see her. I didn't know you were where you could easily run into her. You know, I also felt that I wanted to marry my xN, so I can understand how strongly you feel. I've never been married and I'd never felt that way about anyone prior. But I'm so glad it didn't work out that way
Can you imagine that level of confusion, unbearable pain, instability, deception, & emotional loneliness for the rest of your life? It would probably get worse with time, actually.
Also, actions that come out of these disorders don't always make sense (because it is disordered thinking after all) so it becomes pointless to do brain racking to understand a lot of the "whys". Sometimes some aspects just need to get labelled under a broad "too toxic for me", and you move on from there.
Take care,
BT
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I just want to point out that if there is no way forward with a relationship, and nothing to be gained by reliving it and you do anyway, it's one of two things: and obsessive thing, or an 'I need therapy' thing.
If it's the latter and you're in America, you have better access to therapy than anywhere else in the world....
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you read my conversation with her, does that sound like a woman or a ten year old kid? this is the woman who said I love you so much. I never been married or engaged, I saw her with her indian doctor and she dies her hair black to look like him? i have a condition called delayed ejaculation which means I have a problem with orgasm in a short period of time. she hates me saying that I dont make her feel like a woman because I cant in five minutes. its not premature or impotence. I go a while and she tells me I am to blame because she doesnt feel like a woman. I explained my brain and my dad dripping blood on me and my not wanting to kill a woman. I have been tested, its a problem with my brain. she didnt care, she blamed her instead of being adult now i lose her. I love her. its over, the indian wins because I cant speak about medicine. fuck it, I wish I was dead. she didnt want me, she used me like everyone else. I pray every night that god has a heart and ends my pain. take me instead of Scott. he has a family.. Deena has a an idian who will worship her better than me. I was raised by a gay man, i dont know how to make a woman happey. My dad taught me to be to be gay without being gay. I am not gay, I just dont know how to treat a woman. she wants to be with an idian and die her hair to look the part. I hope I die.
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you read my conversation with her, does that sound like a woman or a ten year old kid?
actually- *you* sounded like the ten yr. old kid. i don't want to be mean but this is very true. you need to somehow see that you need help. you also sound like you struggle with obsessive thinking disorder.
i don't know what anyone here can do for you more.you really do need the outside help and the best question i heard asked was **what will it take** in this life for you to stop thinking about this relationship and get help.
i don't know if you really did went to therapy.if you did and you didn't like it then find another one.
she asked you to never contact her again so what more so what can you do? if you bother her she can get a restraining order on you and you can make your life so much more worse than it is now.
get the help of a therapist or you can be in alot of trouble in the future and i fear for you.
And what areyou talking about your dad dripping blood on you and that you do not want to kill a woman?
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Maybe the blood and the killing a woman is about aids[???] if you say your dad was gay? Did he have aids?
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Brian, Write took this over to another thread (with your username). Please see that, ok?
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Write,
I loved the Wendy Cope quote. It expresses just how I feel right now. Is that the entire poem (or is it from something other than a poem)? I would love to read more.
You expressed sadness at not having had what other people have had, i.e., holding hands, wonderful sex, etc. Now that I know the truth of my husband and what he was hiding throughout our marriage, all those moments that did have sweetness, or apparent love are in question. I look back with only one sure good result of the marriage--my two wonderful children.
I, too, had a verbally abusive father who I am now sure was also an N. My first husband was very much like my father. My second husband appeared to be the opposite, but I now know was always just pretending to be something he clearly was not. You do begin to see yourself as unworthy of anything better than that and will beg for any scraps of love you can get. That is my challenge as I move forward. I must make sure that I never again settle for scraps. You deserve better than that, too.