Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Anonymous on February 14, 2005, 10:33:50 AM
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Hello again everyone
following on from my earlier post to which lots of people kindly replied, I have been trying to understand this disorder a little better and thought I might ask here for some help.
When the person with NPD lavishes you with compliments and gifts and professes their undying love to you over and over and over, do they actually mean it? Do they mean it in their own way, or is it just a way to make you become closer and even more dependent upon them?
My ex smothered me with his 'love' and the most beautiful fairytale romance of my life....staring at me so intensely like I was the most beautiful creature on the earth, and telling me that I was a hundred times a day. But the next he was telling lies and treating me terribly. I just want to understand the reasons behind all the compliments and courtship - do they genuinely beleive that they are that much in love with you or are they clever enough to entice you towards them even closer this way, and not really mean a word of it? Its all so confusing!!
Thank you :)
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When the person with NPD lavishes you with compliments and gifts and professes their undying love to you over and over and over, do they actually mean it? Do they mean it in their own way, or is it just a way to make you become closer and even more dependent upon them?
I've asked myself the same question. I do believe on some level that they mean it. This is when they're in the idealizing stage. We can do no wrong. We are goddesses; their soul mates, etc. We take this in, bask in it, soak it up like sponges and think it's the real deal. It's a shock when we see the other side. This is devaluation.
Once devaluation begins, it is my experience we will never get much more than crumbs of the idealization adulation. Like a junkie looking for a fix, I think I hung in there far longer than I should because I was desperately hoping the real man I loved was the one I experienced during idealization. Very sadly and unfortunately, I think that man was a fascade, a fantasy, and a vagary that kept me clinging.
Best,
bludie
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Romantic love and the idealised Hollywood myth of love debunked for realism at this site, again, it might be of interest, might be too honest, might make no sense whatsoever, but please do try it:
http://www.guidetopsychology.com/sex_love.htm
Portia
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Bludie, Guest and All:
Oh, yes you are the most perfect human that ever existed only and ONLY until you begin to ask little questions and the narc "perceives" this as not acceptable. Then the adoration ceases and as bludie indicated the devaluation of you as a human begins. You are no longer reflecting the perfect image that he craves and it is TOTALLY unacceptable. You are then a nobody, totally devoid of any value to him. After all HE IS PERFECT and only one person in the relationship is right and it IS HIM. Therefore if he is right, you certainly must be WRONG and are no longer worthy of his attention or time. I was told this verbatim by a narc SO. "I am always right". The opposite of this is conveyed to you verbally by the narc "You must be wrong." My reply, "There is such a thing as people looking at things from different points of view and arriving at different conclusions, and both being correct." This response went over like a lead ballon. He wanted me to parrott back "Yes you are always right." What a load of crap. Patz
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When the person with NPD lavishes you with compliments and gifts and professes their undying love to you over and over and over, do they actually mean it? Do they mean it in their own way, or is it just a way to make you become closer and even more dependent upon them?
He was unconsciously looking in a mirror (your eyes) and seeing how fantastic HE was. You are like an extension of him at the beginning. He felt good about himself being infatuated and so YOU were good too (as his mirror, admiring his every move). He was really telling you how good YOU made HIM feel. The instant he stopped feeling "magical" and "in love" and reality set in, you no longer made HIM feel good, the mirror got clouded, and he hated himself and you. Or at least got wierd about it.
Yes they are enticing you to keep being the shiny mirror. No they don't do it on purpose. Yes they are hardwired this way. Yes they are programmed to do this seduction with others. No you couldn't have changed it.
Real people don't act the way he did. that was a fantasy. Fantasies rarely work out once reality sets in. When a real man falls in love with you, it won't look like this. It will be far less dramatic. But it will be real and it won't turn into a wierd, painful situation.
I'm sorry...........
bunny
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I really appreciate this thread as I have wondered the same thing. Was he purposely manipulating me? Or did he really believe he loved me as much as he said he did?
No they don't do it on purpose. Yes they are hardwired this way. Yes they are programmed to do this seduction with others.
I suppose if they don't do it on purpose, that would be another reason to not seek retribution. That is why our justice system has different rules to deal with the mentally ill. "Not guilty by reason of insanity." We put these people away so that they don't do more harm, but we don't actually punish them for their crimes. I guess that would be the equivalent of disconnecting from an N but not necessarily doing anything to punish him for his actions.
Chandra
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He was unconsciously looking in a mirror (your eyes) and seeing how fantastic HE was. You are like an extension of him at the beginning. He felt good about himself being infatuated and so YOU were good too (as his mirror, admiring his every move). He was really telling you how good YOU made HIM feel. The instant he stopped feeling "magical" and "in love" and reality set in, you no longer made HIM feel good, the mirror got clouded, and he hated himself and you. Or at least got wierd about it.
bunny
This is exactly what happened between my X n and me. He even came and told me that things weren't magical like they were in the beginning and that he wanted to have that "feeling" again and could only get it by starting fresh with someone else. Keep in mind that I had a 2 yo and I was three months pregnant at the time. Turns out it was the best thing that could have happened. I realize now that it was better to get out sooner rather than later. For that I am grateful.
Remember it is ALWAYS about the N.
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I am convinced there are two different types of N in this regard. I am sure from what I have read that there are Ns who actually believe the bilge water they dispense. However I know from direct personal experience with my wonderful brother that he doesn't believe a word he says. One day he will accuse someone who is uncooperative of being a thief, a violent fiend and untrustworthy. If however they are properly chastened by his accusations and make nice they are INSTANTLY welcomed back into the fold as though nothing occured. It is calculated and planned. And he absolutely knows there is something wrong with him. I told him once he needed a shrink. He spun around and hissed through his teeth "I'm perfectly sane." And of course he's right. He is sane in that he knows right from wrong. He simply chooses to do evil things because that makes him feel better.
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Real people don't act the way he did. that was a fantasy. Fantasies rarely work out once reality sets in. When a real man falls in love with you, it won't look like this. It will be far less dramatic. But it will be real and it won't turn into a wierd, painful situation.
I really agree with this. And the bummer is, if you've experienced the fantasy it's sometimes tough to then transition into real life.
But I would second the idea that deep-down, we all know that the initial seduction isn't real. We just like it and want it to be. My ex, when we first met, lavished me with so many compliments that I sometimes would giggle. It was just silly. And really fake. But on the other hand I just really liked it-- someone to worship me! I was queen for a day. Then, of course, when I became an actual person and not an audience he was less interested. It was devastating. I stayed devastated for years.
Now that I read how common this is, it helps a lot. It's like falling into quicksand-- once you fall in, the end is inevitable. The key is noticing when the ground is starting to look funny and don't walk there.
Which is hard to do if you grew up with narcissisim.... I think sometimes my compass is a little broken (to mix metaphors-- I guess you can't see quicksand with a compass!) because I don't see it as quickly as I would like to.
Tough question of the day: To what extent does the narcissism in us respond to all of that seductive stuff and pull us into the relationship?
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vunil:
I think we all love to be flattered. We are beautiful, we are the soul mate etc............. In my case because I really received little affirmations as a child and as a teenager from my father, it was easy to seek out the first person who would tell me those things. I was easy prey for a narc. They could see me from a mile away because of my own "neediness." Patz
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They could see me from a mile away because of my own "neediness."
It took me forever to have this insight! It really is profound.
One time I watched an exboyfriend from afar at a large gym where we went. He was very narcisstic but it had been hard to leave him-- he was (is) gorgeous and his sense of humor really fit mine and I liked... well, physically he was just a pleasure all around. But he was the world's jerk in so many ways, ego personified and made whole. I could tell you stories, but they are the same ones we all know.
Anyway, I watched him as he flirted with different women. And I remember this one woman, who was facing me (he had his back to me, didn't know I was there) and her face was just priceless. She was rolling her eyes at him. She was utterly bored by his monologue. Finally he walked away.
I remember thinking at that moment-- "she finds him ridiculous! It is possible to realize that early. Wow. I am going to try to be like her."
Of course, it's easier said than done. But it's a great lesson. She never had to have him for a boyfriend.... whatever I did when he approached me meant I ended up with him!
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Tough question of the day: To what extent does the narcissism in us respond to all of that seductive stuff and pull us into the relationship?
I used to see myself getting very attracted to a toxic man. This type of man was "poison" to me and I would feel the addictive feelings. When I was naive and unaware of relationship addiction, I thought this "meant" I should try to enter a relationship with him. That it was "love" and that I should try to "get" him for myself. With more knowledge, I realized this was a warning that I should stay away from the man altogether. Now I can even flirt with a man like this because I've trained myself to have boundaries and be repelled on a certain level. Bottom line, it's good to use one's pragmatism and learn from bad experience not to blindly follow feelings.
bunny
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I am convinced there are two different types of N in this regard. I am sure from what I have read that there are Ns who actually believe the bilge water they dispense. (...) . It is calculated and planned. And he absolutely knows there is something wrong with him. He is sane in that he knows right from wrong. He simply chooses to do evil things because that makes him feel better.
This is the question I kept asking myself concerning my parents and sisters about their sense of "consciousness". I remember N mother and N younger sis explicitly telling me when I came back to Paris, how they would "make me pay" (for having left France to go to the US). After I left these hellish 18 months living under the same roof, N Mother seriously asked me how I could manage to put up with them... So they were conscious before and after. I am not sure if you can still call it N. I am wondering if it was not sadistic behavior..
Quite differently, N Father would not admit the verbal and emotional violence he put me through during my teens. He would would just laugh embarrassed, saying how is life has always been difficult, etc...
Recognition of N behavior v. denial of it? Honnestly I dunno which one is worst.. One the one hand I think the former are inhuman (but at leeast it is validating for me), whereas the latter are very confusing (making me think I am crazy).
I could see the same pattern w/ different N xbf: some would consciously act as N, others did not seem to be fully aware of it. Maybe the difference is b/w N and antisocial/sociopaths. I dunno, I am still wondering which "type" (if there is such types) is the lesat bad...
I would feel the addictive feelings. When I was naive and unaware of relationship addiction, I thought this "meant" I should try to enter a relationship with him. That it was "love" and that I should try to "get" him for myself.
If I may say, this is the summary of my relationships w/ men... Now I want to get back to the dating scene, but I am scared to death. I could not reply to any posts of men on a dating board...
Now I can even flirt with a man like this because I've trained myself to have boundaries and be repelled on a certain level.
This is very encouraging. I hope one day I would be able to achieve that.
For now I read daily Where to Draw the Line: How to Set Healthy Boundaries Every Day by Anne Katherine. It does help but setting boundaries still seems a huge work to do for me. I feel overwhelmed, though I know I have made (some) progress.
I was wondering, bunny if you pls had some reference books about the subject of setting boundaries? thx
-RL
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Reilient lady,
In my case my brother, unlike your mother, has never openly acknowledged anything about his behavior. I have simply observed him. He would NEVER admit he was doing anything for other than the most noble reasons. But it is easy to discern the gears endlessly spinning behind his mask. Nor do I think he is sadistic. I don't think he enjoys it for a minute. I think he is so frightened of being unmasked that he is constantly and frantically trying to keep twenty plates spinning, pretending nobody notices.
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Wow. Even though I have been reading this board for a few months now, it still amazes me that other people really have had the same experiences as me! I think it's hard to believe that there are other people like my ex who behave in exactly the same way!
I too have often wondered how much they mean when they are "love bombing". My ex would say the most bizarre things to me. One time after he had reduced me to tears, he sat there and licked my tears off my face because "that's how much he loved me". He has told me that he loves me so much that he loves the smell of my sweat (yes, I know, freaky) and that there is nothing I can do to make him hate me. Followed in an instant by a message saying that my avoidance of him was making him hate me.
The trouble is I think he believes everything he says. He believes himself to be totally genuine when he is being loving, and equally thinks his abrupt "about face" when he is angry is perfectly reasonable and rational because "he is hurting". It seems that he has an amazing ability to justify all his thoughts and feelings as being perfectly rational because, after all, they are HIS!! I don't know if this is the case with others, but it is definitely the case with him.
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The trouble is I think he believes everything he says. He believes himself to be totally genuine when he is being loving, and equally thinks his abrupt "about face" when he is angry is perfectly reasonable and rational because "he is hurting". It seems that he has an amazing ability to justify all his thoughts and feelings as being perfectly rational because, after all, they are HIS!! I don't know if this is the case with others, but it is definitely the case with him.
This has been my experience for the most part, too, that any indication to them that what they are doing may be one millimeter off the mark of sane (or nice or whatever) just results in a grandiose explanation of why they are in fact extremely perfect in their reactions, often with very detailed "evidence" for their position (usually the evidence either is untrue or incomplete or just makes no sense).
Your tears story reminded me of an exboyfriend who, after he made me cry, would tell me that if I loved him I would stop crying because my tears were "bumming him out." I sort of seemed like your ex was erasing the evidence of the hurt he caused you, because he didn't want any traces of something negative about him.
On the other hand, I have some narcissists who seemed to know it and relish in it. One of them had been told he had NPD by an exgirlfriend and told me about it, in a bragging way. He thought it meant that he was superior because he knew how to lie and deceive better than others, so he got more. And in a way he was right (he did get what he wanted, in the NPD sense of want). He felt his sense of superiority, as reflected in the symptom list for NPD (which he knew and agreed he fit), was perfectly reasonable given his fabulousness.
I'm not sure which kind is worse. One unexpected wrinkle is that I think that the full-blown NPD guy did go get help and is better now, or at least I hear he is (I avoid him utterly). Maybe he just says he is!
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Cadbury: your story reminded me of so many things about my ex.
He used to prod me with ridiculous accusations and keep contradicting himself just to watch me get frustrated. Then when I would break down in tears and anger he would say "what a baby!"
He chased me out to the car one day, while I was 8 months pregnant, having just loaded my toddler into the car, late for full time work as well, to yell at me for leaving crumbs on the counter....you know, just to make sure he set the tone for my day!
I do believe that he really thinks what he does and says has merit, even when he knows it's ridiculous.....then he turns it into: well I'm just f---ing with you, and look how upset you got...hahaha. I thank God every day I am not married to him.
I wish more than anything that the courts could see what kind of person he is, but I don't hold my breath. I understand my best option is to let go of trying to expose him and learn how to be happy no matter what. I stay hopeful that he will expose himself in the end....ie: my kids figure him out.
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The trouble is I think he believes everything he says. He believes himself to be totally genuine when he is being loving, and equally thinks his abrupt "about face" when he is angry is perfectly reasonable and rational because "he is hurting". It seems that he has an amazing ability to justify all his thoughts and feelings as being perfectly rational because, after all, they are HIS!! I don't know if this is the case with others, but it is definitely the case with him.
This has been my experience for the most part, too, that any indication to them that what they are doing may be one millimeter off the mark of sane (or nice or whatever) just results in a grandiose explanation of why they are in fact extremely perfect in their reactions, often with very detailed "evidence" for their position (usually the evidence either is untrue or incomplete or just makes no sense).
I can't tell you how much this describes my exN. He is a good writer and wrote gargantuan emails. When he abruptly broke off the engagement, and then a few days later, the entire relationship, all via email, I got multipage emails, single spaced, justifying and rationalizing his behavior. He thinks he understands himself so well and seems so proud of his insights into himself. But, he seems to only remember what he is feeling in the exact moment he is feeling it because he is full of contradictions. I could probably write a book just listing his contradictions alone. (One example is that during the break up, he wrote that we should no longer have a physical relationship because "that is a sacred act reserved for someone you are married to, at least in your heart." Then, from reading his emails, I saw that he was on the net trying to find shemales to have sex with and even hired male and female "escorts" to have sex with him and videotape it.) From this board and books, I've learned that their thinking is disordered and there's no point in trying to make sense of it.
As for wondering why we get seduced in the first place: I met him on an Internet dating site and the first two weeks of our relationship were email and phone calls. (He lived in another city). I was actually sharing some of his emails with my close female friends, wanting them to know that I'd met someone special and, perhaps, for a reality check. My friends, who are all stable, educated, middle aged women who love me were all impressed and taken with him. Only one suggested I slow things down. The rest encouraged me to go for it. I think my N was so good at expressing himself that his flattery seemed so genuine. He wasn't just complimenting superficial things like my looks, but he was describing in great depth what he loved about my character and the person that I am. We shared some strong values (or so it seemed). He came across as the exact opposite of superficial. He seemed deep, spiritual, empathic, evolved, etc..etc... I actually thought it would be a sign of poor self esteem on my part and an ungratefulness to the Universe if I questioned what he was expressing to me. I thought, here's a man who values in me what I most value in myself. I mistook him for a soulmate and his words (AND ACTIONS) strongly reinforced that image of who he represented in my life.
I am going to start another thread about Ns and spiritual/self help literature. My N is a follower of Neale Donald Walsch, Conversations with God books and I think he has taken the metaphor that he himself IS god to a Narcissistic extreme.
Chandra
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I am going to start another thread about Ns and spiritual/self help literature. My N is a follower of Neale Donald Walsch, Conversations with God books and I think he has taken the metaphor that he himself IS god to a Narcissistic extreme.
What a wonderful idea!
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Cadbury-thanks for your post. When my ex was breaking up with me she started touching my face like a person would do during a loving moment. I asked her why is she touching me now when I asked for that for the last six months. Her contradictions were so messed up. I asked her why she ever dated me and she said "I usually am not interested in men like you. Your the only one who ever made me feel good enough to let my hair down." I cant believe it. I thought that was a good thing. She makes me feel so conned. All she kept saying was I cant believe how perfet you are, and now I am nothing to her. Who do you ever know.