Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: vunil on February 19, 2005, 02:11:18 PM
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Hi,
I have decided to keep a relationship with my family despite it's narcissistic history, and intend to keep the relationship loving but distant. So far that has worked for me pretty well. I have a personal caveat that if it stops working I can distance myself altogether. But I don't think I'll need to do that, and I don't want to. I did for a short time and it was just the ticket to move to this stage.
Ok, so here's my query. What do I do when they say their crazily mean things? I try to get off the phone quickly, which helps somewhat, but I wonder if anyone else has good ideas? I don't intend to try to fix anything about them, I just want secret techniques for myself. I tried fixing them, and magically it didn't work a bit. So what are my tricks of the trade? Perhaps humming to myself while they talk?
What prompted this was that yesterday I saw my embryo's heartbeat (on an ultrasound) for the first time. It was one of the most important moments of my life. I was thrilled and sent an e-mail to family. My sister never responded. I called her this morning for another reason (her husband is ailing) and told her "he made a heart! Isn't that great?" [I call him "he" not because I know he is a boy or care, but just because I do. I have since he was created, and maybe I have e.s.p. or maybe not-- it's fine with me if "he" is a girl.] My sister said "stop calling it a "he!" She said that if I use male terms for it then I will not love it as much as if it is a girl, so I should stop right now. She was pretty incensed. When I tried to explain it wasn't like that, she was stony-quiet, in her superior fury.
She never said congratulations on the heartbeat.
Her anger was just weird and controlling to the point of insanity. I can call my baby any damn thing I want. I can call him a squirrel if I feel so moved.
Anyway. What do I do when this sort of thing happens? It will happen for the rest of my life. Honestly, I think the reason she didn't e-mail me back is that she is mad that there don't appear to be multiple babies. She's been telling me for a month to watch out because I was very likely to be having twins or possibly triplets. (It was a remote possibility, because I had IVF). It appears to really irk her that I'm not.
Craziness. What do you guys do when confronted with all of the narcissism, those of you who want to keep the relationship?
thanks for the help :)
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What prompted this was that yesterday I saw my embryo's heartbeat (on an ultrasound) for the first time. It was one of the most important moments of my life. I was thrilled and sent an e-mail to family. My sister never responded. I called her this morning for another reason (her husband is ailing) and told her "he made a heart! Isn't that great?" [I call him "he" not because I know he is a boy or care, but just because I do. I have since he was created, and maybe I have e.s.p. or maybe not-- it's fine with me if "he" is a girl.] My sister said "stop calling it a "he!" She said that if I use male terms for it then I will not love it as much as if it is a girl, so I should stop right now. She was pretty incensed. When I tried to explain it wasn't like that, she was stony-quiet, in her superior fury.
First, congratulations on your baby! :-)
Your sister is envious (duh, right) and isn't going to give you one iota of satisfaction. It's just going to be devalue, devalue, devalue. Here's how I would handle her. She: "Don't call it a he, blah blah," Me: "You're right, I shouldn't call it a he, Thanks for pointing that out." Path of least resistance while I secretly think, "F--- her. I'll call it a he as much as I want."
I don't argue with people who are envious, who are determined to undermine me. I agree with them. It usually shuts them up which is my goal.
bunny
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First, congratulations on your baby!
Thanks! I feel as if I've done something truly spectacular :) I made a person! Or he made himself, more like, the little genius.
Your sister is envious (duh, right) and isn't going to give you one iota of satisfaction.
This sounds right to me, although I would love to hear more about it. I have trouble understanding it. She has a family of her own, and endless amounts of success on all fronts. Why does she care if I get my own little thing separate from her? I think you are right, I just can't get the psychological underpinnings of it. It makes me think of my childhood, when I sometimes felt like if I had anything at all (a crumb) that my sister and/or parents would conspire to take it from me. Usually they did. But why do I have to have nothing for them to be happy? I know the answer won't be particularly sane, but I'd love to know it.
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vunil,
But why do I have to have nothing for them to be happy?
I do not know the background of your family.
Relating to my own story (2 envious sisters, no communIcation for over 18 months, they don't have my e-m nor phone number), I believe that what is behind all that is :
-my parents always tried (and succeded) to put competition among us
-Nmother "replays" her conflictual relationships w/ her 5 siblings thru her 3 daughters. She acts like her own Nmother acted w/ her 6 chidren, i.e setting them up against each other to get power (N supply).
-Power hungry Nmother has understood she would control us better if she divided us. She totally f*cked up my attempt to make up w/ younger sis 2 years ago, as if she was jealous of a potential good relationship b/w her daughters.
-Powerless father could only identify us with his mother and her 2 sisters (horrible fights until the end of their lives).
-Older sis has admitted envy is her worst bad quality. she is envious of her friends also. And badmouthing as well.
-Younger sis is jealous more "unconsciously", I think. Since there is only 1 yr difference b/w her and me, and from the history of the family our identities have been enmeshed from the beginning. I think she feels she can exist only if she can put me down and/or project all her bad feelings (badmouthing).
-the unresolution of the Oedipus complex (fights to get the parents love)
-Sis' need to feel "the best"/perfect/unique in my parents'eyes (N entitlement)
In my family, whether on the father side or the mother side, at whatever generation level, siblings = jealousy, cruel fights.
The source of this: the inability of Nmother to see her 3 daughters as separate individuals. Father discarding the issues.
He regarded this as "females stuff" and never played his role of stating "The Law" i.e. what is right and what is wrong (instead, it was anarchy style).
Knowing how dysfunctional my family is, I have become pretty pessimistic about it. Like nothing can be done (as far as they are concerned).
But I can decide which level of relationship to accept. It is sad, it was hard at the beginning, still when some memories come back :cry: But I have endured too much, and I know feel more free.
I do not have any intention to share any info w/ any of the 2 sis. They can't say anything about me anymore, they do not have their scapegoat. Too bad for them. And I now keep minimum contacts w/ parents (through letters only, nothing personal anymore, for now). Just getting major "self-protective measures"... Took me a long time, but I guess I had to.
Little by little I feel I regain my balance... :wink:
I hope this helped.
Best,
-RL
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Thanks! I feel as if I've done something truly spectacular :) I made a person! Or he made himself, more like, the little genius.
You've done something very special and beautiful. Which is exactly what your sister is p.o.'d about. It doesn't matter that she has her own family and her own success. She also has to crush your happiness because you might garner some special attention with a new grandchild. You are happy which evokes very deep and painful longings and envy in her. However, even if you had nothing, she wouldn't be happy. She won't be happy no matter what. Because on a deep level, some internal parts of her are very punitive and judgmental of other parts. Also some parts of her are longing for maternal care. This painful longing gets evoked when a sibling has a child. She was probably disappointed (as you point out) that you're having a single child and now she is digging at the bottom of the barrel to find ways to downplay your happiness. Possibly she had some hope that if you had twins or triplets, she wouldn't envy you as much. She could have more critical, judgmental thoughts that are more comfortable for her.
bunny
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Congratulations on your forthcoming baby! :D I love to hear about new babies! You must be so excited. I loved having my children, long ago. They are grown up now but the baby years are wonderful memories. :D
I have some suggestions:
1. Don't share personal information with your family. Ask them lots of questions instead, of a general nature. Eg "so what have you been doing lately?" Then wait until they have stopped talking and ask another question.
2. If they say something hurtful, say "mmm" then ask them a question quickly. If they repeat their hurtful statement, say "mmm" again and ask another question.
3. When you are on the phone and it is their turn to talk, hold the phone at a distance so you cannot hear while they talk, putting the phone back to your lips now and again and saying "uh huh".
4. Disarm them by offering validation to their own choices before you announce your own successes. Eg: "So sis, I bet your kids are doing well at school. Oh, so Emily is captain of the hockey team? That's wonderful! She is terrific and please pass on my congratulations. Hey, I called to let you know that we are having a baby."
I hope some of this is helpful.
S
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Wow, thanks you guys. You are really insightful, and such good writers! Some of the writing on this list is better than anything I've read in the bookstore on this subject. Honestly. It's a complicated issue and it really seems more understandable when you guys help me with it.
Ok, so here's my next question. It's the obvious one. What do I do when the baby is born? One of my goals is to stop the patterns in my family from passing on to my child. I think I have a shot at this because I wasn't one of the dominant ones in the family and so I had to figure out how to deal with my pain and sense of loss without the accompanying threat to my grandiosity (since I don't have any!). This has meant a lot of therapy, reading, friendships with insightful people, etc. I think that helps. But if my family is around I am worried that (1) they will bug me to no end at a time when I'll be tired and vulnerable, and (2) they will bring out patterns in me that only arise when they are around. Also, I am worried about my kid's exposure to them later because I'd rather my poor child not have to play a role in some weird jealousy-play.
My Dad's brothers, N's both, and mean, were a negative influence on my childhood even though I hardly saw them. They were just awful to me, and my parents didn't protect me. Is that the key? That I protect my child? Keep my family away if I see the patterns developing?
It's complicated because these folks are not lost causes-- they don't have full-blown NPD or anything, they are just garden-variety narcissistic. They do love and know how to give. And they will love my child. It's just that at this late date I'm afraid the patterns of my family are so entrenched that there is no hope for moving out of them. No one is even trying besides me....
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Well, I believe you will do just great with your baby! :)
Any time that your baby spends with your family won't greatly impact the baby unless you were all living together ALL of the time. You and your spouse will be the role models for your children, not your parents or brothers and sisters. it won't matter if your child sees you thrown a bit out by your family when you are all together, as long as the main time the kids spend with you is untainted by your family's presence. So as long as you raise your children with consideration and love (and I am sure you will), any contact they or you have with your family will not affect your kids.
There are lots of courses and books on how to raise kids, espousing different views. You might want to do some reading in advance, so that you will be well informed when the time comes. :wink:
Best of luck,
S (also, thanks for your kind comments to me on the other thread)
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Congrads Vunil, so you were pregnant already! :D
Hey, I don't know what it's like, but I had a couple of hours with a week-old newborn recently and I hope when your child (children) is (are) there, it's going to be so different. I hope your protective maternal traits step right out and you'll just know what's okay for your offspring. I think it will be so much easier for you once he/she/they are there in the world. I guess it will make everything much clearer and simpler in your mind.
Don't worry too much, enjoy it! take lots of care, Portia
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Thanks everyone! I am definitely going to read up on childrearing because heaven knows my person experience gives me nothing good to go on. Any particular books that you all recommend?
Afar, thanks so much for that advice. I used it this morning. A friend I haven't talked to in a long time called and went on and on about her current travails (all of them really minor) never stopping for a breath even after I told her I was pregnant! The first thing she said after I told her I was pregnant was a short pause, an "oh! wow! great" and then immediately into telling me I "had no idea what she's been through lately, it's just been awful." When I asked what she had been through she told me a few weeks ago her purse got stolen.
It was astounding, but not surprising-- this is how she has always been with me but I didn't fully "get it" until now. She only calls to complain about her life, doesn't listen to a word of what I say, and doesn't appear to notice that I am a person too (even when I tell her that now I am two people!).
I guess I'm realizing how much I unwittingly surrounded myself with narcissists. WOW. It is really a revelation.
Anyway, I just asked her more questions about whatever she was talking about, and when she insulted me (happened a few times) I just didn't say anything and she went right on. It at least worked to get me through that phone conversation.
I'm not going to have contact with her any more, though! If she wants to use for her personal venting machine then she can pay me therapist fees.
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Hi Vunil,
How awesome of you to want to prepare for childrearing and not repeat the mistakes of your family.
Protecting children is vital. I protected my nephew (age 4) last night. His grandfather scolded him in a rough voice for no good reason. He was just being happy and singing at the dinner table. The little child deflated, slumped over, said he wasn't hungry any more, and looked totally depressed. His parents laughed at him because he was being so dramatic. I said to my dad, "Say something nice to _____ because he's very upset." My father actually did it! The little boy perked back up immediately. Then, later, my mother decided to put her two cents in and scolded the boy for having been hurt when his grandfather scolded him. Again, the boy slumped over, deflated. His parents ignored him. I went over and said, "Did they hurt your feelings again?" "Yes," he replied. Me: "They shouldn't do that. Don't listen to them. Come and and let's play!" Again, he came back to life. And in his play, he acted out some of the feelings he had. Watching them play is very informative.
With children it's all about feelings. With that said, I'm not advocating anarchy with children, or letting them get away with bad behavior. But I won't put up with the adults' bad behavior either. I'll undermine them or do whatever I have to do.
I don't think it's necessary to take your family away if your relatives act out. Just protect and defend them.
I recommend this book: Compassionate Child-Rearing by Robert W. Firestone and anything by T. Berry Brazelton.
bunny
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Bunny-- Thanks!
And any other books you think of, please send my way. I love to read and like the idea of "preparing" for this exciting next adventure.
I'm so lucky to have realized what was going on with my family and lucky to have found this board. Isn't it a blessing that we now have the words to talk about this stuff, and the people to talk about it with? Imagine if we didn't have that. It would be really tough to crawl out, or at least it would have been for me.
(pregnancy makes me emotional!).
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Hi.
I read a book about coping with Narcissists that suggest a technique that works pretty well for me.
The author suggests that you envision a physical barrier between yourself and the narcissistic individual. Whenever you deal with them, make sure that you mentally put this barrier up between you. I built a glass block wall in my mind. I figure that is would be good to at least see them enough to tell where they are. I have been doing thes for a few months and it does help.
Good luck!
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Vunil: I am so happy for you and for that baby! What a lucky kid!!
I echo Bunny's suggestion on reading T. Berry Brazelton. I believe his advice is loving, informed and sane. Avoid like crazy anything by that John Rosemunde, as I believe he is a child hater at heart (apologies to his devotees) despite his "real life" advice. It sounds ok, at first, but on further inspection is mean spirited.
Your posts have demonstrated strength, humor and love....so again, I think that child is lucky!!
I was an absolute mother bear with my babies, much to my ex's family's chagrin........but so what? Everything starts from intention. You intend to make a healthy life for your child. And so it will be.
Are you nauseous? That was tough for me.
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Are you nauseous? That was tough for me.
Yes, very, unless I do exactly what he wants. He likes particular foods (none of which were my favorites before but now taste very delicious to me) and will not tolerate certain smells. He likes very simple food, and is not interested in vegetables (anyone else have this? Vegetables smell like poison to me now and before I loved them). Today I went into a large shoe store and the smell of leather (or whatever that smell was-- maybe polish) was not what he had in mind. Yuck. So I left.
Already he is running the show, so I guess there is hope for me to break those narcissistic patterns! In our little dyad family he already comes first.
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vunil:
Congrats on the baby! I am very happy for you. On dealing with the narcs in your family. I think I like the one about holding the phone out while they talk about themselves is the best. I have employed this one many times! Hah! When you call just let them talk about themselves, their favorite topic, what they are doing, what is important to them. I then become tone deaf. I then give them the important information I wanted them to know, then tell them I need to go.
As far as them being excited about the baby? If it is not about them, the baby will be second. Just minimize the amount of time you spend around them. I remember when I told my narc mother-in-law that I was pregnant, she was "very upset that I had not considered her financial situation first and what was she going to do?" They never change cherie. Much love Patz
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"very upset that I had not considered her financial situation first and what was she going to do?"
Oh, this sounds so familiar! I have tried to get pregnant for a year and a half and every month was a low-probability possibility. A devastating process. Sometimes I had to wait months and months before I could try again. One month I was in the process of trying, feeling very hopeful, and I was talking to my mom on the phone and she counted ahead 9 months from then. She got really upset with me. "Don't you know we'll be overseas? And we've been talking about staying an extra two weeks because we found a really great deal!" She was furious I hadn't checked the dates with her.
Oh, ps, they are retired and spend most of their time travelling, so whenever it happened they would be gone somewhere. Thank heavens :)
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Why does she care if I get my own little thing separate from her?
This may not be too easy for you to hear. To an N your baby is not your own, and it is not part of you. You are part of her supporting cast, and the baby is the same. Your baby is there to help her to feel superior to the world. That is its role in life. Same as my child to my family. The children are loved, in an N way, for the unconditional belief and love they bring to the N, whether parent, grandparent, aunt or whatever. And at the point they start to think for themselves and lose the hero worship of the Ns, they become of less interest and they get effectively dumped in favour of the next baby along. I have seen this happen over and over.
If this aunt has access to your child in any way, the child will become one more in her supporting cast of thousands, and she will stay in the middle, like Cleopatra dressed in cloth of gold on her golden throne. You and your child will not be one of the slaves in the background; you get some status from being blood relations, but you still don't get the limelight. Not ever.
If you have other ideas, such as that this baby is the most important person ever to you, then of course your sister will not like it. She will get the attention back any way she can, and one way is to play the expert; belittle you, your doctors, anything, to make herself feel better. She is using your child already.
So, stuff her. Worst thing you can do to her is ignore her. Who cares what she thinks about your pregnancy? If she can't be nice, then who needs her.
The only important thing to say is; congratulations on your miracle baby, and enjoy every single moment. I am very, very happy for you.
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Wow, thanks you guys. You are really insightful, and such good writers! Some of the writing on this list is better than anything I've read in the bookstore on this subject. Honestly. It's a complicated issue and it really seems more understandable when you guys help me with it.
Ok, so here's my next question. It's the obvious one. What do I do when the baby is born? One of my goals is to stop the patterns in my family from passing on to my child.
It's complicated because these folks are not lost causes-- they don't have full-blown NPD or anything, they are just garden-variety narcissistic. They do love and know how to give. And they will love my child. It's just that at this late date I'm afraid the patterns of my family are so entrenched that there is no hope for moving out of them. No one is even trying besides me....
One of the things that N families do is to distort reality, and create their own fantasy world. The most important thing that you can do is to make a decision to always tell your child the truth, as you see it. Always. Not the nasty truth, just the kind, simple kind.
Sometimes when I bring my child away from seeing her grandparents I talk to her about them, and I tell her what they are doing and why. I am not nasty about it, but I tell her that they see the world differently from the way I see it, and I explain why that makes them speak and act as they do. And she can understand that.
As an example, gran clapped her hands and laughed recently when a couple on 'who wants to be a millionaire' got an answer wrong and lost several thousands of pounds. I had arrived shortly before, and I said straight away, not in a harsh way, but matter of fact 'It isn't very nice to clap when people have lost money like that'. She immediately stopped, then started trying to justify what she did. She pretended she was glad the programme was finished, rather than pleased they lost the money. I wasn't fooled, and neither was my daughter. But my Nmum and dad will now believe absolutely that she did not show shadenfreude, but it was because the programme ended.
It is this kind of small crazymaking behaviour that you need to innoculate your child against, and it is done by being true to what you know, and teaching your child to be the same.
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Vunil:
I can relate to your situation, I really can. My family when I became pregnant, they congratulated me ok., but my father informed me it had better be a boy. When I brought my son home, my middle brother came over to see but he asked "where is the boy". As I brought up my child, to answer one of your questions (What do I do when they come over to see us.?) Well, narcs are so caught up in their on world you won't have to worry about any "visits", calls, birthday gifts, celebrations of milestone etc. However, they may be critical on how you are rearing him, feeding him, have competition with their own children. I hate to be a wet blanket but your expectations should be zero and sadly be happy about it. Less narc exposure for your child. It is very sad and it makes me cry and angry at the same time why they cannot be joyous at this most important time in your life.
My mother in law when I told her I was pregnent, "well how is this going to impact me financially". She thought she was coming to live with us and I was going to take care of her. (she was able to work and take care of herself). When I objected to her smoking in the house with the baby, she said "how do you know that the smoke is going into his room at all?". You begin to get the picture. My mother did not come when my child was born. I think I got a couple of calls from my relatives, but not from my father, my brothers. My mother did call as I remember. Christmas, I tried going home I think for a about 3 Christmas'. After that I never went back for holidays at all. Just to much narc exposure. Patz
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Congrats Vunil! I am so happy for you. I am also expecting for the 2nd time and my Nmom has yet to even see my first baby. I have a similar situation I posted this a long time ago:
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/viewtopic.php?p=11213&highlight=#11213
I wish you a wonderful, healthy & HAPPY pregnancy!
Angry Girl
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Angry Girl:
Your mother is very very disturbed. I read you link. I am very sad about you and Mia and your family's responses.
A baby is a wonderful, happy event. I am so very pleased that you both have children that you can nuture and be proud of. It took me 8 years to conceive. I simply got major indifference from my family. It truly hurts and my heart breaks for you both. Much love Patz
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Vunil,
You wrote,
"Is that the key? That I protect my child"
In a nutshell! Absolutely! Without a doubt! That little child will be an imprint machine. What do you want imprinting him? My advice since you have chosen to stay in contact with your family is to set behavioral boundaries and warn them of the consequences when crossed. If you have to cut off members of your family to protect your child, that is a no-brainer IMO. What could be more important than protecting a helpless child?
Incidentally, congratulations on your new Young Republican! Sorry, terrible joke. :oops: Forgive me please, I couldn't resist.
mudpuppy