Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Chandra on February 20, 2005, 01:28:22 PM
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Has anyone's N been a devotee of some New Age teacher or guru? Mine was fixated on Neale Donald Walsch's Conversations with God books. I wonder if anyone on this board has read these books and what you think of them?
Here's a quote from Sandy Hotchkiss' book, Why Is It Always About You? The Seven Deadly Sins of Narcissism: p. 179
".....the dominant spiritual presence of the late 20th century has not been God but some exalted form of Me. The narcissistic individual's great difficulty bowing to outside authority may explain the popularity of the kind of spiritualism that emphasizes the deity within, one's own internal "higher power." Whether this represents a pinnacle of moral development or an exercise in infantile grandiosity varies, of course, among individuals.
When that higher power is just Me playing God, it is easy to fool oneself and fall into moral laxity....."
A website on NPD has also alluded to this phenomenon:
"It has also been suggested that self-help literature about bolstering self-esteem and getting what you want out of life or that encourages the feeling of victimization, has aggravating effects on NPD thinking and behavior."
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html
Chandra
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Chandra: what an interesting topic. My ex refused to discuss spirituality with me, except on a very superficial way. If our discussions got too "real", he would make a huge joke out of it and mock my interest in those matters. To look cool, however, he read things the life of Mahatma Ghandi and would tell people so. He was mostly interested in the historical aspects of it, however. Perhaps it was typical N behavoir to not see how any of that actually could affect his reality...which is typically of his own making, damn the rest of us! I believe he is truly amoral, so any discussions of spirituality would indeed be used by him to bolster whatever behavoirs he is currently excusing.
My second N husband (ex....yeah, I was a slow learner) would quote anyone and everything to sound smart...unfortunately, his "sound bytes" never changed, and after the umpteenth quoting of Joseph Campbell or some other extremely influential thinker, I began to realize that's all they were: soundbytes to help with the "show" called him. He also, was most interested in the trival pursuit version of history as well. He had a touch of EST training, back in the day, but as with everything, he uses one tiny memory (he left after an hour, I think) to brag about how hip he was.
He also, did not want to talk about the soul, or spirituality except when it was another cynical sound byte to put down others. Any closeness to this subject was an excuse for a stiff drink.
I consider myself to be on a spiritual path. This awareness has saved me. I no longer have a narrow view of the divine as a traditional Man in the Clouds that I got growing up, so I guess in that way people might say I am "new age". I don't actually call myself anything, other than learning.
I do believe the divine is all of us, at our essence, but it is not so far from what I learned in Sunday school....God is in everyone. I see this as a way to reclaim my power and responsibility in this life, not to abuse others..but then, I don't have a personality disorder.
I totally see how a narc would use WHATEVER they hear and twist it to their own devices. But I have seen them do it with EVERYTHING, doesn't only have to do with matters of the spirit....but why not, the world and all its' thoughts belong to them!!!
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Great thread.
I had had several people go on and on to me about Deepok Chopra and how he brings total enlightenment. And then when you ask for details they explain about how if you just eat the right foods and have the right attitude then you will look beautiful and young forever and never die!
I guess all those people who actually do age are just inferior.
And being pregnant and trying to get there have brought all kinds of new age philosophies my way, and maybe because I am studying narcissism now (to finally fully process my childhood and to be a good parent myself) a lot of it struck me funny and borderline offensive. For instance, a lot of new age books and CD's espouse the view that if you think negatively that you will "manifest" negative things in your life, including things like cancer and aging. If you expect the absolute best, then you will get it. All you have to do is visualize something and it will come true.
This meant that I was wrong to worry about being infertile and possibly not getting pregnant. (punchline-- everything worked out great for me (so far!), I think in part because I took precautions against what might go wrong instead of ignoring it).
So, the upshot is (1) bad things happen to unenlightened people; the truly superior people avoid bad stuff by using the right techniques, and (2) the individual is able to manifest all manner of incredible changes in the physical universe with his or her mind.
I am sure none of this is meant to cross the line into narcissism-- it's just supposed to bring hope and positive energy. But the flip side of it is arrogant and very blame-the-victim. And anyway it's all a bunch of hoo-ha. I know plenty of wonderful, positive people who have had bad fortune and plenty of negative unenlightened jerks who enjoy tons of good fortune. If the world were so organized that we all got what we wanted by meditating, I think we'd know it by now!
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Vunil: you are so funny. My fiance would crack up if he read what you wrote. He and I go round and round (always with a sense of humor) about this very subject. He's totally with you on this.
I struggle with owning what my life is up to this point, (as in I brought this to me to learn) and why the hell, now that I've figured it out, am I still stuck in this stinking city after losing my case to move? I want to believe that thoughts become things, and in a way I really do. When I first tried to understand that phrase, it meant to me that I wasn't good enough, thinking "right" enough....etc. all full of self blame.
It confused me a lot, as I knew I was onto something, but didn't quite get it (not that I ever will!!)
Now I see it differently, because my outward circumstances have not changed, but I have, inside. I could very well be still pissed off all the time. From the outside, someone would say, all the injustice of my situation has not been alleviated at all. But I choose how I feel about things which means I am powerful and not emotionally controlled by my ex N..........which is HUGE for me!
I actually do know lots of people, whose outward circumstances are a reflection of how they feel inside (in my case, I didn't believe I was loveable/worthy and sought men who validated that by treating me like shit). these people are the perpetual victims...life always sucks for them, and bad things always come their way...always. I think "bad" things happen to everyone, and probably "good" things just as well, it's really all about the spin we put on them, that's all.....but some people make their stories and dramas who they ARE! And they are so addicted to the drama that they just get more of it (or subliminally seek it?)
Hell yeah, I wish I knew the winning lottery numbers, but that is where faith comes in for me. I trust that the stuff I need to learn will be there, and perhaps winning the lottery right now isn't going to be as meaningful as being in debt right now (damnit!). Of course, I could try that out if I would buy a lottery ticket every once in a while!
Deepak Chopra is a teacher, and not all teachers are for everyone. I, for one, find his books a little haughty for my taste, but I know people who think he's great. I would take a comment like this man bringing total enlightenment with great suspicion. Enlightenment, in my mind, is very personal and a never ending, ongoing process. I am highly suspicious of anyone getting "saved" by anything other than themselves, really.
I have a lot of places/teachers where I have learned things on this path.
My semi-cynical friends teach me as much as the Dali Lama.
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I think a narcissist will use spirituality, if it fits their persona, to get supplies. They may be guru types, "teachers," or "students of spirituality" - i.e., people who use the jargon, and even believe the grandiose parts of it, to trap unsuspecting partners who naively believe if they hear the talk that the person is also walking the walk.
bunny
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I think a narcissist will use spirituality, if it fits their persona, to get supplies. They may be guru types, "teachers," or "students of spirituality" - i.e., people who use the jargon, and even believe the grandiose parts of it, to trap unsuspecting partners who naively believe if they hear the talk that the person is also walking the walk.
Bunny,
I don't think my ex N was using this just to impress me. He seems to sincerely buy into it lock, stock, and barrel. I just think that the nature of this specific spiritual teaching is subject to great misuse by someone with N tendencies. I read the original Conversations with God book because he really wanted me to. It did nothing for me. It seemed to be all about doing whatever is best for onesself at all times, regardless of anything else. I was really hoping someone on this board had read it and had an opinion on it. I want a non-Narcissistic take on the philosophy presented in the book. I can't bring myself to read it again because for me it reeks too much of my ex-N.
Chandra
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Mum--
You're right (somehow on this subject opposing viewpoints can be right!). I have known people who really do seem to pull misfortune to them. But on the other hand they code everything as a misfortune, too, so it's tough to know what's causing what. I'd probably opt for the perception interpretation, but who's to say?
Just for another funny story, some friends of mine and I got on this kick that we were going to believe in the power of visualization. There is some documentary on it whose name I forget that shows miraculous instances of visualizing changing the world and making great things happen.
ok, so before the election we gathered and had a visualization ceremony to help our favorite candidate get elected president. You have never seen better visualization. We had candles, we had little smooth stones, and we fully believed in what we were doing.
Then we lost by a landslide (at least if you look at the states).
It was a good lesson in humility :)
As for Conversations with God, I haven't read it-- is it like those "talking to angels" books and seminars? I do have some familiarity with those and would second your idea that there is a whiff of narcissism there (or more than a whiff).
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re: Talking with God
I went to Amazon to see the book and see if it triggered anything, and lo and behold, I have read it. Someone recommended it, so I gave it a try. I couldn't get all the way through it. I remember thinkiing that it was just this guy saying what he thought and felt, but you couldn't argue with it because "God" said it. I thought it was the same as anyone else proclaiming his divine wisdom.
Also, the guy isn't a very good writer. You would think that God would be more articulate.
Just to confirm your thought that this is all very narcissisitic, the first paragraph of the book says:
"In the spring of 1992...God began talking with you. Through me."
Well, gosh, thanks.
I think that the narcissistic tinge to new age religion is more than just another example of narcissists using anything to get supplies. It's that, of course, but I also agree that this religion is tailor-made for our narcissistic times. It just fits perfectly.
Not that people can't take any religion (even ones that involve, for instance, god being born in a stable and living out his days in humility and kindness) and make it a big blunt instrument of selfishness and power.
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Chandra, I just looked up this bloke out of interest and found http://www.cwg.org/ - a whole website devoted to the books.
Okay I admit, I didn’t get beyond the welcome from Neale which goes:
“Dear Friend, Your coming to this web site means more to me than I could ever tell you. It says to me that you are one of the courageous ones. Someone on whom we can count on to continue the silent, individual search for the highest truth in order to make a difference in your own life…..”
I started laughing. Oh boy! What rot, what patronising, intelligence-insulting, assumptive, presumptive claptrap. That’s my opinion. Why?
He has no idea why I’m coming to his website but he presumes so much. That insults me.
“means more to me than I could ever tell you?” – too true, I’m not about to listen to him at all. No way. Because he has no intention of listening to me does he? Uh-oh, no. It’s a one-way monologue here and I’ve enough of those in my lifetime. :x He obviously knows the one and only truth and he’s about to give it to me. haha. No thanks! :D
I am one of the courageous ones?? So, if I leave his website, I’m weak and not courageous? :(
Seriously, I can see how this would appeal to a narcissistic personality. To be one of the chosen ones (as they surely already are!), one of the few who know the truth eh? Give me a break.
No wait. I just noticed a plug for this book, ‘What God Wants’: “When was the last time you read a dangerous book? Be careful. This book is dangerous.”
Brilliant marketing! I love it. It’s so clever, wow yes please, we all (in our 2 year old Nism) want to be powerful and dangerous and want to sit to God’s right hand. Beware any book that says “If embraced, it most certainly will change your life.” It’s appealing to people who don’t have a mind of their own.
How dare a human being presume to know what God wants???????? How arrogant. Does Neale think he is the new Jesus? Maybe he does. Maybe he is. :shock: Maybe I won’t survive my criticism of his website. On the other hand, my God likes being questioned and criticised, he or she or it likes me to think for myself, so maybe I will survive. So will you Chandra :D
PS Vunil "In the spring of 1992...God began talking with you. Through me."
Well, gosh, thanks.
thanks for the giggle...P
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trait: people are of ten vulnerable when they are seeking support or enlightenment & who can argue with 'I'm right, God says'.
Fortunately a narcissist is likely pretty uncomfortable with the idea of a greater being than themself, so it's more likely to be a temporary posturing.
But I've read many times of people being manipulated by charismatic narcissists in spiritual or religious settings.
I personally am very leery of anyone who self-styles themself as a 'guru'.
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Chandra, if you want some alternatives, have you read The Road Less Travelled? It may be 25 years old but it’s still good. I have a lot of disagreement with Scott Peck (particularly in his follow-up book, Further Along The Road etc), but also a lot of agreement!
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684847248/102-9668796-3928126
http://www.mscottpeck.com/
PS write Fortunately a narcissist is likely pretty uncomfortable with the idea of a greater being than themself, so it's more likely to be a temporary posturing.
The narc can obtain supply by aligning himself with the higher being. By inflating the higher being (supplying Him) the narc feeds themselves = 'covert' narcissism. But I agree about gurus. That's why I like Scott Peck, he openly says he doesn't have the answers. :D
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Portia; agreed...even if you don't agree with Peck, at least he's a good writer (one I don't mind supporting by buying books).
If you look on the internet, there are a zillion self help sites and the ones "that will change your life".....are actually like a sick pyramid scheme ("I became rich by helping others....buy my stuff and you can learn to bilk people too").I am not a cynic at all, but even I can spot snake oil.
Some are helpful, but even the sites of some "enlightened" writers I like are nothing more than advertisements. Where is the love?
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He has a book called "What God Wants"? That is hilarious.
I went to his website and was laughing so hard I started to think it might be bad karma (to be so sarcastically amused) so I left. I mean, whatever floats peoples' boats, I guess. But the sunset? The quotes? Narcissism definitely lives.
The key to this kind of spirituality is that the person is really god-- the one who can communicate god the best, or the one chosen to give the news, the only one who really listens and understands, etc.
The talking-to-angels stuff is very similar. Often the angel tells someone to do very selfish self-aggrandizing stuff, and then when people don't like it the narcissist can say "but my angel told me to!" Really the narcissist is the angel, the blessed one exalted above all.
All of this reminds me of an e-mail I got from my dad yesterday. My parents are furious with me because I wanted to begin talking about my crazy childhood with them and they would rather not (because there is nothing to talk about because of their extreme perfection in all ways). They asked what I wanted from them and I said please go get some therapy. That made them super-furious (perfect people do not get therapy).
Anyway, I get these very dramatic e-mails sometimes from them, and yesterday my dad sent me one that said "Congratulations on your baby" and then (new paragraph) "Your mother and I pray for you." Dum dum dum dum (cue dramatic music). End of message.
Is there anything more insulting than having someone tell you (whom you never asked) that they are praying for you? The layers of narcissism there are so deep that I can't even begin to make my way through them. Especially coming from someone who was absolutely awful to his child and could profitably spend his time in church asking for his own redemption.
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PS "he" in the previous post is Walsch, not Peck. Sorry for the potential confusion!
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Vunil: how about a reply of: "why isn't that nice of you".
Yeah, getting prayed for: it smacks of "there is something wrong with you" when it comes from certain sources, huh?
How about "sending you happy thoughts....or you're beautiful....or your child will be blessed....." Naw, wrong people, huh?
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I started laughing. Oh boy! What rot, what patronising, intelligence-insulting, assumptive, presumptive claptrap. That’s my opinion.
Right on Portia! Thanks for validating why I couldn't stand reading the first book, even though I was in the throes of romantic love at the time and this was my fiancé's all time FAVORITE series of books. (He probably couldn't stand that I didn't especially embrace it, even though I didn't openly criticize it either). Condescending, preachy, and patronising is right!
I am still really open to hearing someone else's more positive take on it. I can't imagine something would become a best seller if it was completely without merit. I did find one thing of potential value in the book, though not for me. The book spent a lot of time negating the image of God as vengeful, wrathful, and punishing. I think some fundamentalist religions view God that way and it would be beneficial for some to undo that kind of programming.
Chandra
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Oh, we must all be on at once. After posting a reply, I see so many others.
Here's what weird: My N recently read Road Less Traveled and absolutely loved that too. He also read Peck's People of the Lie, which, I think, is partly about Narcissism. And he raved about it. Didn't see himself in it at all. And started calling other people Narcissists.
Chandra
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He also read Peck's People of the Lie, which, I think, is partly about Narcissism. And he raved about it. Didn't see himself in it at all. And started calling other people Narcissists.
I think that book has some excellent descriptions of what it feels like to be in the presence of narcissists. It gets a little freaky (imo) when he starts recommending exorcism for these patients, but what the heck-- regular therapy doesn't seem to help them!
That last part cracked me up-- so many of the narcissists in my life are obsessed with how selfish other people are. When you ask for examples, it's clear that anything other than bending over backwards to the N's wishes is "selfish." One of my exes used to call me selfish whenever I wanted somethng different from what he wanted, especially (for some reason) when we were on vacation. He would say "but it's my vacation! How can you be so selfish?" Telling him it was my vacation, too, led to an empty stare.
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Yeah, getting prayed for: it smacks of "there is something wrong with you" when it comes from certain sources, huh?
Definitely. It's very "we have a special relationship with the almighty because we are so holy, so we can get you fixed right up. Also, your flaws are so deep that it takes divine intervention to correct them. Luckily, and not surprisingly, god agrees with our judgment of you."
I guess it would be different if there were something physically wrong with me. On the contrary, there is something physically great with me!
I wish I had the nerve to write back "oh, thanks, but I already do that for myself." Or how about "oh, great, but I asked god and s/he said that I'm doing really well."
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I don't think my ex N was using this just to impress me. He seems to sincerely buy into it lock, stock, and barrel. I just think that the nature of this specific spiritual teaching is subject to great misuse by someone with N tendencies.
Sorry, I should have said that the N whose persona fits spirituality unconsciously uses it to get supplies. Some of them are doing it as con artists, but many many others truly have a grandiose feeling of superiority and righteousness.
I haven't read Conversations with God and it sounds so god-awful that I don't think I can stomach it. There are plenty of horrific books out there that become wildly popular for some reason. I guess there are a lot of "seekers" who aren't very picky about the reading material.
bunny
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All of this reminds me of an e-mail I got from my dad yesterday. My parents are furious with me because I wanted to begin talking about my crazy childhood with them and they would rather not (because there is nothing to talk about because of their extreme perfection in all ways). They asked what I wanted from them and I said please go get some therapy. That made them super-furious (perfect people do not get therapy).
pragmatic suggestion ahead - take what you need and leave the rest -
2x I tried to talk to my mother about my current emotional problems with regard to her child-rearing practices and it went over like a lead balloon. Parents (especially fragile Ns) are seriously defensive about this stuff. And since they can't turn back the clock, they have some vague guilt if you bring it up. And that will make them extremely defensive, angry, martyred, etc. I don't think it's a great idea to tell someone else to get therapy (unless you plan to attend along with them) because they have no inner motivation and will take it as a personal insult. I have suggested to my N-sister to seek therapy only when she complained about a lot of anxiety, stress, and seemed to be asking for this suggestion. Of course when I gave it, she turned on me like a viper and became enraged. And she hasn't seen a therapist. You could make it a condition for any further interaction but just asking them to do it while still interacting with them won't work. You have no leverage.
bunny
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so many of the narcissists in my life are obsessed with how selfish other people are.
That's so interesting Vunil! My experience with my exN and all the reading I'm doing has made me realize that my mother has some strong N tendencies. All my life and to this day, my mother has told me over and over how selfish I am. She used to say how selfish my dad was (I don't remember him being that way at all---in fact, we both walked on eggshells so as to avoid upsetting my mother). And while my exN didn't use the word "selfish," he said things like "you expect me to decrease my joy in order for you to increase yours." Or some new agey crap like that. The concept of putting needs and wants on the table and negotiating and compromising was foreign to him.
What an education this has been for me! Maybe that is why this N came into my life: to lead me to this body of knowledge about NPD thereby shedding light on my childhood and relationship with my mother.
Chandra
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You could make it a condition for any further interaction but just asking them to do it while still interacting with them won't work. You have no leverage.
You know, this is what I initially said to them. But it became clear they would pick never speaking to me over therapy. And also in the process of "communicating" I realized they were nuttier than I had thought and I realized they might not even benefit from therapy (unless they chose it). I also received the viper treatment and didn't like it.
Was I wrong to back down? I would love your opinion.
BTW they are happy to go to therapy with me, because (it is clear from our interactions) they believe this means "explain to the therapist that their daughter is crazy and that they were wonderful parents." I know that therapy would never take that tone, but the minute they realized they were not going to recruit a judge to condemn me they would be out of there in a heartbeat. I can't imagine it working out very well, which is why I haven't taken them up on the offer. It just seems they need to do some work on their own, first.
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...it became clear they would pick never speaking to me over therapy.
This tells you that they are terrified. They would rather lose you than go to a therapist. This means it's life or death to them. It's you or them. And their survival instinct says "Attack!"
And also in the process of "communicating" I realized they were nuttier than I had thought and I realized they might not even benefit from therapy (unless they chose it). I also received the viper treatment and didn't like it.
Right. They won't benefit from therapy. You can lead a horse to water, etc.
Was I wrong to back down? I would love your opinion.
I don't think you have backed down.
the minute they realized they were not going to recruit a judge to condemn me they would be out of there in a heartbeat.
I agree.
It just seems they need to do some work on their own, first.
Unfortunately they aren't going to work on anything. They don't want to. I'd go to plan B (I already have, with my family).
bunny
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I'd go to plan B
Thanks for the affirmations! I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. All of this feels a little outer-space-land to me sometimes, so new.
Plan B it is.
I don't regret pushing them because the process showed me what's really brewing and made me really take it deadly-serious. It led me to learning. I think I secretly believed the barrier to our addressing things was that I never brought them up! Now I realize there are super-serious problems there.
And anyway I know I'll be ok because, you know, they are praying for me... (to bring it back to this thread).
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We got a bit off the new age thread, but I would still like to chat about it if anyone else is up for it.
What about this idea of being able to 'heal yourself' with the right mindset? A friend today recommended a book called something like "you can heal yourself" which basically says you can get rid of any disease with the right way of thinking, and you give yourself diseases if you think the wrong way.
Does this make anyone else crazy-mad? It is narcissism run rampant, and then made into a religion. And the worst part is, I don't feel as if I'm allowed to disagree with it. It just sounds so optimistic and empowering. To not believe in it is to be a cynic.
(but, um, I don't believe it)
I just expect that everyone enjoying excellent health believes it just fine (see, I have the right thoughts!) and those who succumb to illness are less thrilled.
Growing up in a narcissitic household means I'll always want to speak up for the downtrodden, the ones who really are suffering, and I sure don't want to blame them for giving themselves diseases.
anyway. maybe I'm just looking at it the wrong way?
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Vunil: Belief systems are so very personal, intrinsically neither right nor wrong, so it would be ridiculous to tell anyone they "see something the wrong way", but if you are instead asking for another perspective, I'll offer mine.
I believe we have a great part, if not the most part in creating our lives. I think its' true, but I don't quite have the hang on how to do it, however.
I believe (know) we will die (to this life) as well. We rarely get to choose how we die (ok, some do, directly and indirectly). People who get a disease are not "asking for it" or creating it per se. Instead, and this may sound a lot like old fashioned "blind faith' (hey , anyone remember that band?..I digress): The world/God/the universe/whatever is the bigger picture.... gives us exactly what we need to learn as a soul. Now if you are convinced that life here on earth is all there is, then dying is a very horrible thing, to be greatly feared (I will agree to avoid it when I can, however). We will die. Plain and simple. But if you believe this life is a wonderful thing to learn and enjoy on our way (where?) then it becomes easier to accept whatever this life throws us. (for me). Easy for me to say, I suppose, and I'm sure when some horrible shit comes my way this theory will be tested.
Accepting death however is the ultimate relief! If we can find a way not to be afraid to die.....just imagine! Then we can extrapolate that into smaller things (since that one is huge) ....ie: if we are not afraid of those nasty N's in our life, our lives get better (lots of us are seeing that or aiming for that).
What I have seen is that since I have stopped thinking of myself as a victim of life's circumstances (well, I have my days).... I am happier and more in control, peaceful, powerful. I see how my choices in dealing with how life has handed me things IS up to me...and I think when I feel good inside, life matches that, and hands me more good stuff. Or, you could say, hey it hands you bad stuff, you're just not seeing it that way! To which I would say: EXACTLY!
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Actually I posted the same thing in another thread (whose name escapes me). I.e., people aren't to blame for illnesses or disasters that happen to them.
Here is what I believe in a nutshell: The power of suggestion is very strong. This includes hypnosis and self-hypnosis. With that said, it doesn't prevent or cure diseases, if it did no one would have these problems.
sorry to be so bone-dry about it
bunny
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or, Bunny, to be devil's advocate: maybe the power of suggestion CAN cure disease, and we just all suck at it.
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or, Bunny, to be devil's advocate: maybe the power of suggestion CAN cure disease, and we just all suck at it.
Well the power of suggestion (hypnosis) is used for pain control and it seems to work. It cannot, however, eliminate the pain. It just distracts the person from feeling it.
bunny
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Hi, Mum--
Do you really believe it's possible for hypnosis to cure disease?
Just checking which part is the devil and which part is you !
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Vunil: re: devil's advocate (otherwise known as P.I.T.A.):
I think anything is possible, but we humans are clueless. So I guess not, as so many people close to me recently have died or are dying of some pretty horrible diseases. Although I think if it were easier to get out of (as in psych ourselves out of death) we would still choose to die. This life is meant to be temporary and I think everyone believes that one.
But as my dogs go flying out the door after yet another percieved annoyance, I've got to say: what a fun life it is! HA! (dogs are the best!)
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Hi all. This is my first post so bear with me.
I have just got out of a relationship with a narcissist. I was with her a year and started to realise about 7 or 8 months into the relationship.
The Internet has been an incredible learning source! You have to take some of what is written with a pinch of salt. Then again, SO MUCH rings true of my ex! When I read other people's experiences of living with a narcissist, it is as though they know my N intimately. It is as though they are writing about her.
She is very, very into the New Age. She is into crystals, healing, medicine wheel, 5rhythms etc etc
It seems to me that all these activities are just yet more (and very reliable) sources of Narcissistic Supply. They provide a captive audience for her on weekends/workshops/ceremonies. These groups draw in new recruits from time to time, offering opportunities to groom yet more sources of Narcissistic Supply. It's perfect!
I'm still kind of obsessed with her and what has happened over this past year (I've only been out of the relationship a few weeks). But I feel very calm and glad it is all over. I don't even dislike her. I feel sorry for her. I want to help her but I know I can't.
Anyway, just thought I'd contribute to this thread because it seemed relavent.
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I don't know a great deal about New Age apart from buying the odd pretty crystal for my daughter, just to look at. :)
However, a lot of what has been discussed here can apply equally well to fundamentalist Christianity. It too can have a very antagonistic approach to people who are ill, or dying, or unfortunate one way or another, as if it is their fault for not having enough faith to pray away their situation. And worst of all if they are divorcing their spouse, whatever the reason. This is a very cruel version of religion, and has nothing to do with Christ, or what he had to say to people with illnesses, or who had fallen into difficult times, imo.
My own dad has a Methodist background, and when I was young used to use his own particular favourite bits of the Bible as sticks to beat us with. Again, not what I would regard as the purpose of any faith. One example is that I had only one school uniform (skirt and jumper, and several shirts), and a bone idle Nmother. :? At primary school God knows how often my uniform was washed, but by the time I got to secondary school, I knew it had to be washed on a Friday night or Saturday morning, then dried in time for ironing on Sunday and wearing on Monday. Every single time my dad caught me in the kitchen, ironing my school uniform on a Sunday afternoon, he told me that his mother did her washing on a Monday, drying on Tuesday, ironing on Wednesday, and that ironing on Sunday was not allowed. He would be very angry and say, 'You shouldn't iron on a Sunday'. And every time I would try to explain that I needed the uniform Monday to Friday, and therefore ... He never ever heard what I said. I had to try to iron when he was not around, or hide what I was doing. And this in the name of religion. :?
I suppose what I am trying to say is that New Age may be very N based, but traditional religion, based on Patriarchy, is little better, imo. Both are based around imposing on people what is best for them, rather than allowing them to be who they were meant to be.
Anyone who believes that the right kind of faith, or prayer, or any other form of magical thinking, will be enough to prevent them from falling ill, or from misfortune of one kind or another, is living in fairy land. Life is not like that. The rain falls on the righteous and the unrighteous.
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Hi bomaguy,
Don't know a lot about New Age but I can see how someone with a yen to attract 'followers' or 'instruct' other people on 'how to live thier lives' could get into this kind of thing. I once knew a woman who was very damaging and toxic who was into all these kinds of things. She was forever declaiming to others on what their 'faults' were but had never seemed to have heard of a mirror :!: :?:
October,
Sorry for what your dad did to you. Criticising, control, making you feel 'caught' in your own kitchen - it's YOUR kitchen too! :x
Vunil,
I don't think hypnosis can cure disease, but I have been seeing a hypnotherapist since November 2004 and I can honestly say that this therapy has made a HUGE difference to my life. I've been depressed for many years, severely so since 1998, plus complex PTSD, dissociation - a whole load of not nice things. I was in therapy for four years, taking anti-depressants, Saint John's Wort, the whole shebang. (sp?) I was VERY SCEPTICAL about hypnosis. But the progress I've made in the last 6 months has been astounding. We're still working on self-confidence and well-being, but I have real hopes that as I grow stronger I can start addressing some of my deeper issues, things I haven't been able to touch for years. Again, I was VERY SCEPTICAL about this. But everyone around me has noticed the difference in me, so I'm not just seeing what I want to see.
I'm more physically relaxed, I make eye-contact now, I can sit still in a room full of people instead of pacing/dashing outside to chain-smoke/leaving early/ jumping out of my skin if someone tries to touch me, I even stand up straight! My therapist is a hypno-THERAPIST, NOT a hypnotist. He is a trained and licenced professional. Like with any therapist it is important to research a person's credentials first. He is a guide to healing. Any changes I make I make because I WANT TO GET BETTER. I still have that moment - even when actually under hypnosis, where my conscious mind is like 'yeah right, this is rilly gonna help...I MUST be nuts' whatever. The point is MY MIND is in the driving seat, and I am AWARE of what he is saying. We work together, and I am an ACTIVE PARTICIPANT in the whole process.
Whew! Sorry for the long spiel, just wanted to share my experiences :oops:
2cents
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Hi, Bomaguy:
Welcome. I felt the same type of feeling when I first got to this board: like these people were writing about my ex N!!!
I think N's come in every possible package, in every walk of life, and ANY place where they can get people to pay attention to them. This is both a little disconcerting (as in we can't get away from them...they're everywhere!!!) and comforting (ok, it's not just me/this job/my neighborhood).
So welcome to a VERY large club....I think people on this board are just plain nice....and definately know what it's like to have to deal with Nidiots!!!
MUM
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Thanks for the feedback guys.
I'm a bit confused (not surprisingly maybe!).
Maybe I should feel rage...but I just don't. I feel sorry for her. Really.
I don't think she is evil. I think she needs help but from what I've read the prognosis is not very good.
My plan is to treat her like an adult- That is if we have any further contact. I think she knows I've sussed her. She had unsupervised access to my PC throughout the relationship so she may know I know the game she plays just by looking at my web history list...
Anyway the plan is...If she starts throwing a tantrum or trying to pathologise me, belittle me, make me feel guilty etc etc then I will just treat her like you would treat a small child having a tantrum: Point out how she is trying to be controlling and say I won't accept it. "Come back when you have calmed down" type of approach.
We shall see!
Keep you posted.
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bomaguy: (I assume that last post was you). I am confused: how would this woman have access to your computer? Are you still living together, or is she welcome in your home?
The N's really do mess with our heads....as you said on the other thread, so consider that the end of a relationship may also include (no explaination needed) the end of her use of your computer. Detach completely if you want to be free of her (and from what you say, sounds very likely).
Mum
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October,
Sorry for what your dad did to you. Criticising, control, making you feel 'caught' in your own kitchen - it's YOUR kitchen too! :x
2cents
That should have been true, but wasn't. That was something else he used to say. It was his house, not ours. :?
I was not allowed a lock on my bedroom door, because there was not to be any door in the house (bathroom excepted) that he couldn't walk through, day or night, whenever he wanted. No locked doors.
Which led to those immortal words on my 21st birthday; "You might have got the 'key of the door', but that doesn't mean you get a door key."
:lol: :lol: :lol:
(My daughter got her own door key at the age of 9. Not to be a latchkey child, but to have a key.)
Dad felt right at home alongside Paul in Acts. Nothing against Paul, of course, but if you choose selectively from his writing you get a lot of ammunition to use against women/girls. No doubt if Dad had been New Age instead of Methodist he would have found something else to use.
There is an old Jewish saying; What do donkeys look for when reading the Bible? The answer is; stories about donkeys. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Mum:
She had access to my PC because I trusted her!
We never lived together, but she often stayed over and I would go off to work in the morning leaving her in my flat alone.
It's now 5 days since I have heard from her...I really think maybe she knows she has been sussed!
I'm not yet sure if I am going to cut contact 100%. I feel so sorry for her...it must be hell to be an N. Despite the shit she put me through, I would like to help her...but how?
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bomaguy,
Welcome.
It is obviously your choice whether to cut off contact with her, but I think most of us here would say that is your best shot at being able to move on with your life with hopes of having a healthy relationship in the future.
Those of us with children with our N spouses, cannot, in most cases, completely walk away, but limited contact is best.
If you remain in contact with her you are subject to getting sucked back in (I believe the term is hoovering), and finding it more and more difficult to detach. We all know that they are pathetic individuals that need a ton of help to ever be healthy, but you will not be able to convince her of that if she is truly an N. She must come to that conclusion herself and be commited to the many years of therapy that would be necessary. It is rare that this will happen.
Good luck with working through this.
Brigid
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I'm not yet sure if I am going to cut contact 100%. I feel so sorry for her...it must be hell to be an N. Despite the shit she put me through, I would like to help her...but how?
You can't help her for these reasons:
-- She doesn't think she has a problem.
-- She hasn't asked for help.
-- You aren't qualified to help her.
-- You will get sucked back in and the abuse will continue.
bunny
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It's laughable really. She never tires of telling anyone who will listen that she is on a 'spiritual path' and is on the road of 'personal development'. HA! Yeh right. Whatever...
Her road to spiritual enlightenment is to seed fear, intimidation, control, inferiority and guilt on all whom she touches. She has NO IDEA that that is what she does.
She has already moved onto her next vicitim and has another lined up as a back up. He's a nice guy. Gentle, thoughtful, responsible. Good eating in her eyes. Poor man. The Tsunami of abuse will kick in in about 3 months I would guess. But there is no way I can say anything to him. He wouldn't believe me if I did say something. And think that I'm the unstable one.
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That 'guest' is me btw. forgot to log in. Lot on my mind :)
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HI, Bomaguy: it certainly sounds like you have a handle on this woman...and you are right, it is not worth your energy trying to "save" her next victim. I have been trying to save my children for years....but as their mom, I may have some influence (despite the Nidiot).
It does suck to be an N. Love her "spiritual path"....heck, everyone IS on a spiritual path...duh! Her path smells.