Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Mudpup on February 26, 2005, 12:57:36 PM
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Good morning everyone,
I have posted elsewhere about my legal battle with my brother.
One strategy my lawyer and I have discussed is mailing a package of the DSM IV criteria and descriptions of N behavior and typical problems victims encounter to my family members and associates who have apparently swallowed his slanders.
The idea is if he countersues me for defamation of character I can defend myself by subjecting him to a psych exam. THE defense against defamation is that what was said was the truth.
If he doesn't countersue, which I suspect he wouldn't as I believe he is too insecure to risk being examined, I would at least have some chance of educating people about what he is and has done and probably could change some minds and repair some relationships.
If he is able to fool a psych evaluation however I might be in a tight spot. Are they able to do this? He is an absolutely text book case of NPD. I think I said before I was surprised I didn't find his picture at the top of the NPD page of the DSM IV. He has NO overlap with any of the other disorders and would probably make an excellent case study. However he is very intelligent and prides himself on his deceptive behavior. I know him and can read him like a book. Could a competent court appointed examiner?
I don't think I made it too clear above, but the whole strategy would be to introduce NPD into the lawsuit I am filing against him to establish
A. He's a pathological liar that the jury cannot trust and
B. He is prone to exactly the kind of behavior that I am alleging.
Anyway, any input from someone more knowledgable than me would be greatly appreciated.
Mudpuppy
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I am not a licensed clinician, but my first thoughts on reading your post are (1) wouldn't everyone already know his tendencies if they have dealt with him? and (2) why not just concentrate on the lies he actually told and the stuff he actually did?
NPD people lie all the time, so getting some sort of diagnosis might be really tough. If he is at all smart he knows to say he cares about other people, has no delusions of grandeur, doesn't lie, etc. And the person diagnosing him might actually get charmed by him, which would be a disaster.
I guess you'd have to really think through what this all would buy you. If he has NPD I can't imagine anyone who has known him for any amount of time having any other impression of him besides the one you have. Usually these people are good with "new people" and quickly use up people they've known a long time. If you can prove all of his lies, which should be easy, maybe that would be enough?
Just two cents! Someone else can probably answer better.
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mudpup
Not a doctor but thought I would offer some thoughts.
I love the concept but I can't help but have reservations. As the previous poster noted it is very likely that he could *charm* the evaluator. From my experience I don't have too much faith in court appointed therapists being able to see through it. What are the chances that your attorney could recommend a Psychiatrist to do an evaluation (of course it would be pricey) in addition to the court appointed one?
If you and your attorney feel you already have a strong case then I would avoid doing what you are contemplating. Just my opinion based on my experiences with my X N.
You never know though....if you're a risk taker and have the stomach for it then do it. It would be so awesome if your brother was diagnosed as N as a result of such action. You would be such a hero for all of us here. :wink:
Best of luck.
Mia
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Mud:
Narcs could care less that they are narcs. The only reason he would care is if in his twisted way could use this against you. During intake of any pysch diagnosis :(1) the patient has presented on his on (2) someone like parents or significant others have brought them in (3) law enforcement has brought them in due to "acting out" and they were going to harm themselves or others. In your brothers case he would have to be threatened enough by an NPD diagnosis in order to counter your claims. Narcs are very chamelon like creatures and can bend and twist to accomodate first impressions. The likihood of him entertaining on going therapy is nil. This would require him to submit to a theraputic relationship in which he is not in charge. Also, even if he did submit in superficial way, the likihood of him hoodwinking a really good psychologist/psychiatrist for any length of time is not likely. Eventually his "visions of grandeur" and obssession with himself (I the ego) would eventually over rule any attempts at a theraputic relationship. Just my 2c. Patz
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The likelihood of him entertaining on going to therapy is nil.
I totally agree with this! I had an N friend who went and quit after two weeks because "the people in that group just didn't seem to understand what I needed from them."
Maybe that should go in the hilarious N comments thread.
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Thanks for the replies guys,
vunil,
Outside of court where he can lie with impunity he is a talented liar and concealer and convinces people that his motives are good even if he has to use tough tactics to enforce his noble motives. Criminy, I knew him better than anyone and it took me years to figure out what was going on. Plus when you are buried under an avalanche of lies like I was it can be tough to dig out. Even if people know he is a creep they still buy into this junk just because of the weight of it. Plus this is the hard part, people may know he is a creep but without knowing what NPD is they don't believe anyone would actually do anything as outrageous as he actually does. They think I am lying or exaggerating when I just describe his behavior.
mia,
He has done me so much damage that I have become a risk taker. I don't have a whole lot to lose. This suit is for all the marbles. Whoever loses gets to tuck their tail between their legs and find a new doghouse.
patz,
I'm not sure what your reference to ongoing therapy is. I don't hold out any hope for him on that score. I just want a diagnosis. I agree on your other points. I don't think he would put himself in the position of being evaluated. But if he did I don't see how he could hide it. Once I figured him out it was almost pitiful how easily I could manipulate him without him knowing it. In fact I have watched him in court previously regarding a couple of real estate matters and he thinks he is acting normal when in fact he is alienating the judge and everybody else in the room. If you've ever seen the pictures of Mussolini swaggering on his balcony you will have the general idea.
One thing I left out of my first post is the fact that a therapist friend of mine diagnosed him remotely as NPD in a casual conversation so I can plead reliance on her opinion even though her diagnosis is not admissable. Leaving that out may have exaggerated my legal exposure if he fooled a court appointed doc.
I'm certainly not decided on this. I would just like to get the issue before a jury somehow so they know what they are dealing with. Its probably not necessary but it might help. I may decide my motivation is simply to expose him which would mean I was making my decision on emotion. That's bad. Thanks for the bones to chew on.
mudpuppy
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One strategy my lawyer and I have discussed is mailing a package of the DSM IV criteria and descriptions of N behavior and typical problems victims encounter to my family members and associates who have apparently swallowed his slanders.
This is using your family and associates to get him angry enough to countersue you. Makes you look bad. I'm not for it.
If you want to get the NPD info in front of a jury, you will need an expert witness (psychiatrist) to get up there and explain his diagnosis and why they have diagnosed him as such. How do you get him examined? Usually the plaintiff (not defendant) submits to an exam to sue for emotional damages. Tempting him to countersue you for defamation, then saying it wasn't defamation but the truth, prior to his being diagnosed by anyone, sounds lame. If I were on a jury I would not like the sound of it.
my opinion, and I am on your side, not his.
bunny
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Mudpup,
I can understand how you want everyone you know and understand why your brother lies so.
I have a Workerscomp exam that is full of jargon and scales of 1-10. what percentage of the population has the same symptoms. (2%) and simply states he is a self-absorbed Narsisstic.
Now saying that, an expert would need to clarify the scales to the layman.
I don't know what allowed a WC doctor able to do this exam and how it benifits them, They know he is an N, now, how do you clarify an N???
Maybe some of the same reason they could allow the test would allow you to make a request????
When I found descriptions that fit my H, I e-mailed a few, to those family members who would ask why would he lie or do what he does.
Now I could say "THIS IS WHY HE ACTS THIS WAY".
I would look up web sites that have answers to questions your family would ask about your brother.
One that my BIL mentions,
"I'ts always someone else's fault"
troubles in his life was never anything he did.
So I would send him something to show how this is a classic behavior of the N. He would come up with questions I could now fire back and answer.
How you would do this in court I don't know but maybe a WC Lawyer could help you with some direction.
Hope this helps......Onlyrenting.
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Hi Mudpuppy,
I doubt your family will be willing to put in the work to understand Narcissism, and may even have some mild disorders of their own which prevent them from seeing it. They may also be too anxious about taking sides to want to see the truth. They may not want to get so involved. For these reasons, i don't think mailing them information will help.
Most of these cases end in settlements/mediation, by the way. I have been in some crazy settlements for significant estates and property and no-one wants to go to court. You go into mediation with a professional mediator on your side, who communicates with your bro's mediator. They each begin with an ambit claim which is ridiculous, and come down from the extreme positions to meet somewhere in the middle. I don't think you will be able to completely obliterate your bro as you plan. Your best bet to get him off your back forever is to negotiate a settlement in which he must agree to leave you alone forevermore - for a price (eg 25% or even 50% of the business). Mediators have seen all this many times before and know their stuff. Have you thought of consulting one?
I managed to 'get rid' of an N sibling in this way - ie, we no longer have contact, although much money was lost to secure this arrangement.
This may be helpful, found in browsing:
http://www.lectlaw.com/filesh/tabbpd.htm
from - S
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Mudpup,
Is your ultimate goal to win the lawsuit with your brother or to bring family members to your side? I think those goals have very different approaches. My situation is somewhat different in that the family members I would be trying to convince are his not mine and therefore, would never accept or believe this of their brother/son if 5 psychiatrists stated it under oath. They have so many of their own dysfunctions and behaviors that in part led to my husband's issues that they could not accept that he has any problems.
I lived with my N H for 22 years and did not see this problem until my therapist diagnosed it. He was such a skilled liar and wore such a charming facade that no one saw him for what he was. My therapist saw it in the first hour he spent with him alone however, so I think a good therapist can see through them fairly easily.
I would agree with the comment regarding using a mediator if your goal is just to "win" your case and get him out of your business life. Otherwise you could be fighting this for years and nobody wins.
Good luck.
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Mud:
Ongoing therapy is just that....ongoing therapy. When a patient begins to see a psychologist/psychiatrist, the first thing the professional tries to hone in on is identification of "the problem". Most individuals seeking treatment "realize" there is a emotional problem internally which is interfering with the day to day activities. Many here can attest to the fact that when they sought a 3rd party, i.e objective information, it was to help sort through, manage, understand, recognize......what "the problem,problems" are. In doing so, it is not a one shot deal. It requires a realtionship with your therapist, a trust, if you will, to help establish the hard psychological work to "recover" from whatever problem is going on. Your narc brother would maybe last 2 visits IF he decided to see what NPD is and what it meant to him. I hope this makes things a little clearer.
I also think using the diagnosis from the DVM would be counterproductive. What you actually need is where his narc behavior in a direct way has actually caused harm to others he has come in contact with, exclusive of you. You need actual specifics, dates, circumstances, individuals, and results. I seriously doubt the rest of the individuals who have bought his bs are in a position to prehaps change their minds.
The reason I say "in a position". Your brother weilds a certain amount of power in his business, with business associates etc. A fine example of this is the Tokar case in Atlanta, GA. A very prominent lawyer, Fred Tokars had his wife whacked by some hoodlums. The wife found out he was dealing drugs with some of his "clients" and was going to blow the whistle. The police department had a very hard time going through the twisted pathway of Fred Tokars to finally bring him to justice. He was a very connected, rich lawyer........but he did pay after locating his accomplices. He still to this day denies he had anything to do with the death of his wife and children. Does your family owe any money to this other brother? Are any employed by him? What kind of business deals does he do with his other business associates in town? Does he contribute to charity to look good? I did have an aquaintence who is a multimillionaire (he has solid gold bridges in his teeth!) who contributes to charity to look good, not for the motivation of doing good I assure you.
Patz
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oops I meant DSM. ( I think it was an association with DVM.....just got my drivers liscence renewed!) Patz :)
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Hi, new poster here. Sam Vaknin (Malignant Self love author) has great tips on the Nar in court- a google search can find them.
My tactic in divorcing my NXH was to focus on things that I knew that really embarrassed him. Then, my lawyer called his and said that these would come out if we went to court. So we settled out of court. Ns are very paranoid, and are always afraid that their house of cards can be toppled.
I also agree that exposing his past lies in court will do more to discredit his testimony than a lenghty examination of whether he has NPD or not. Most people can easily reason that if he has a habit of lying his word is no good. Going into the background of why he lies, the reasons, the mental condition, just muddies the waters. it's unnecessary, and, if you don't present a convincing argument, you may turn people against yourself
Just my thoughts... love this board!
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Thanks to all for the thoughts,
The consensus seems to be its a bad idea. I'm stubborn though, so I will think more about it.
I think the reason I want people to know about NPD is because for years I could see his various behaviors but could never put two and two together. Once I read the description and thought processes of NPD it was like scales fell from my eyes. I guess I hope the same thing would happen to people who may think he is just difficult and a little weird like I did.
Guest,
I've read some of SamV's stuff. However I hear too much of my own N in Sam's writings to trust him very far. He does have some useful suggestions.
Patz,
thanks for you thoughts. You misunderstand our business. I did essentially all the work. So he has enough to retire on, but if I am not making him money he just putters around in his own little world not doing any business.
brigid,
When our mother dies we will own property including four houses together along with our two sisters, and these properties are too important to me, sentimental wise, to just walk away from. My goal is not to mediate or settle, my goal is to make any contact with or harrasment of me like sticking his finger in a light socket so that he knows to simply leave me alone or there will be consequences. The few times he has really gotten his nose bloodied (figuratively), he declares himself the winner and then avoids those peole like the plague. That's what I want to be to him, the black plague.
I feel the same way about their abilitity to hide it from a pro. In a situation where he is in control or can at least pretend he is he's fine. But put him in clinical setting and I think he would be shaking like a bunny rabbit.(no offense bunny)
s,
We are currently in a partition action dividing our real estate. We went through 5 months of mediation in 2003. It was a farce. He did nothing in good faith and finally fired the mediator when he saw things weren't going his way. I've been through binding arbitration as well (not with my N) and don't really see any advantage over court.
onlyrenting,
I too have some concerns about how complicated this could all get in and out of court. Good luck with the move.
bunny,
Yeah I know. The question is how do I get him examined. That is why my lawyer is researchng it. If I couldn't get him examined then its no go for sure.
Anyway thanks all. I'll let you know what I decide.
mudpup
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Anyway thanks all. I'll let you know what I decide.
mudpup
Sorry to answer this one so late, mudpup, but I wanted to make a small comment. To me there is one very good reason for not ever telling my mum that she is N. The reason is that knowledge is power, and this is my knowledge, and gives me a huge advantage over her. She is left with her manipulations, lies and witchcraft, but they do not work on my any more and she does not know why. She does not have the key to my behaviour. I on the other hand have the key to hers.
If she knew about NPD, and started looking into it, and what it means, then she would have a chance to outplay me once more, and I am not about to let that happen.
You have the DSM. I would say, keep it to yourself and use it. It is like Bletchley Park cracking the Nazi codes in WWII. The last thing you do is let the enemy know that you have their code, and can understand everything they say and everything they do. If your brother finds out what you know, he will change the rules again, to your disadvantage.
If you do decide to go ahead, there is a relatively easy way to get your brother to co-operate with a therapist, although it may not be ethical. Your therapist only needs to ask him for detailed advice about you and your problems. No N could resist that!!!!! :lol: Then just sit back and let him talk.
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Mudpup:
I have to agree with October on this. My ex N, during the initial deposition regarding my relocation case, could not help talking about himself...his talent, job, reputation.....then stumbled when asked how much money he made last year (said he didn't know). He was just transparent! However, his attorney must have coached him well, because he was "sincere" acting during the trial and avoided any of the behavoir he showed in deposition. I would NEVER tell him that I think he is a narcissist! He and his attorney (because she is good) would twist and twirl that around me so quick I won't know what hit me. I will let a therapist see that when and IF we get that far...and if he/she doesn't pick it up, oh well.
October is smart........don't let them know what you know about them!
As far as mediation goes, it has been my experience that it only works with two sane and reasonable people who have difficulty but not impossibility in communicating. My fiance and his ex are a happy case in point. They are both reasonable and both have the same goal, to make thier child's life as positive as possible.
Ours was a waste of time, and in family court, nothing said in mediation can ever be used in the courtroom (too bad, the mediator picked up his N thing instantly!)
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Hi October,
It is like Bletchley Park cracking the Nazi codes in WWII. The last thing you do is let the enemy know that you have their code, and can understand everything they say and everything they do. If your brother finds out what you know, he will change the rules again, to your disadvantage.
Thank you so much. That was beautifully put, and I do believe you are right. I have already alerted my lawyer to study up on NPD prior to trial to use it to our advantage. Excellent analogy. It is like a code language they have isn't it?
I suspect I was more concerned with making myself look innocent to others than I was about winning. I forgot my truism, which is anybody that knew us both beforehand and chose to believe him deserves what they get, because they'll be on the receiving end themselves some day.
If you do decide to go ahead, there is a relatively easy way to get your brother to co-operate with a therapist, although it may not be ethical. Your therapist only needs to ask him for detailed advice about you and your problems. No N could resist that!!!!! Then just sit back and let him talk.
That is hilarious because its true! He'd probably show up in a white smock, with a pipe in the corner of his mouth and Psych 101 under his arm like he was being asked to consult. :roll:
Hmmm, that's almost worth trying just to see it.
Thanks October. You're a pal. :)
mudpup
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That is hilarious because its true! He'd probably show up in a white smock, with a pipe in the corner of his mouth and Psych 101 under his arm like he was being asked to consult. :roll:
Hmmm, that's almost worth trying just to see it.
Thanks October. You're a pal. :)
mudpup
My mum would leap at the chance to do this for me too. She used to be a nurse, and still thinks she knows everything there is to know about medicine. And at the same time she has the usual N contempt for all doctors. Absolute scathing dismissal of every bit of their knowledge and behaviour. And everything they do is personal.
In reality, her medical knowledge is limited, way out of date, and based on a whole lot of false assumptions. Which would be funny if it were not also dangerous. Years ago she advised my SIL to 'wait and see' when one of my nephews had a high temperature. Fortunately, I spoke with SIL shortly afterwards, and politely disagreed. I said it is never worth taking chances with a child, and to have him checked out by a doctor, and she did. :D I forget what it was now, but he needed medication.
I never told my mum what I had done. I just work quietly in the background, when I am able to, administering what antidote I can to her lies. Not always very effective, or very much, but at least she doesn't have things completely her own way.
She would certainly loooooooooove to get her hands on my therapists, and tell them alllllll about me. :lol:
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Hi all:
She would certainly loooooooooove to get her hands on my therapists, and tell them alllllll about me.
October: My "abuser" (I'm getting sick of writing that so I'm going to call the person "A") had a balistic fit when I refused to devulge who my therapist was or the address. I feel so dumb. It did not dawn on me that "A" would have jumped at the chance to do this and was actually determined to do so!
I kept asking myself: "Why does "A" want to "talk" to my therapist??? " and my answer to myself, at the time, was: "To get information?".
Didn't even occur to me that "A" wanted to "give" information, which would, I am sure now, have been false and destructive stuff, never mind satisfying for "A"!!
Thank God I kept silent. Whew!!!
GFN
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Hi all:
She would certainly loooooooooove to get her hands on my therapists, and tell them alllllll about me.
October: My "abuser" (I'm getting sick of writing that so I'm going to call the person "A") had a balistic fit when I refused to devulge who my therapist was or the address. I feel so dumb. It did not dawn on me that "A" would have jumped at the chance to do this and was actually determined to do so!
I kept asking myself: "Why does "A" want to "talk" to my therapist??? " and my answer to myself, at the time, was: "To get information?".
Didn't even occur to me that "A" wanted to "give" information, which would, I am sure now, have been false and destructive stuff, never mind satisfying for "A"!!
Thank God I kept silent. Whew!!!
GFN
Amen to that! Although any t worth their salt would not take long to see through an N, and it would not be to your harm for them to have evidence of what has been your experience.
I am sure A wanted to dish the dirt on you, and tell your t how to 'cure' you. In my experience Ns never look for information; they already know everything there is to know. One thing you will never hear them say is 'Well, I never knew that! How interesting! You learn something new every day!!'
More likely is a disgusted tone, saying; 'I thought everyone knew that!'
:D
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Mudpuppy:
My middle brother is very adept at using psychological jargon to "identify" other people. I really tried to "help" my middle brother. He is a very wealthy person but is very poor spiritually. He would go through the Bible and underline things that validated his position and then wanted me to agree with it. When I pointed out he was taking things out of context his reply "are you arguing with the fact it states such and such right here?"
The last straw came with he was dating a young woman who had a 3 year old child. I came home for a visit his date and child were there, he wanted me to meet them. Well the young woman was beautiful, educated etc. and her child I think had a few developmental issues, but was a nice child. My brother told me that he felt the child was and "interfence" and that he was very "jealous" of the mother's relationship with the child. He couldn't figure out why she "spent" so much time with him. Mind you this was a 3 year old. I finally told him that small children take a lot of time and energy and that as a single mom she had to meet all his needs. His reply: "Well, I have needs to."
He was really put out when I told him "Women and children are first in the boat" and you will have to settle for what is left. She eventally wised up and quit dating him.
I am not certain but I think he has raised his son into a sociopath. He has been acting out at school. He is 17-18. He got up in the middle of class and cursed his teacher out. Did my brother and ex sister-in-law see this as a problem? No, when the principal called. My brother and ex sister in law wanted a "meeting" with the principal and teacher. It was to blame the teacher and not make their son take responsiblity for his actions. This is also true for any speeding tickets etc. This is a worry for me because I fear one day I will receive a call where he has committed a crime where my brother cannot buy, delay or otherwise derail a day of reckoning. My brother either thinks what his son does is funny or not important. I am very worried about all of this but my brother minimizes it? All of this makes it really hard to go home for a visit because I confront my brother with what is going on. Especially when my nephew starts acting out around me and my son. This is exclusive of all the business issues that surround my family that are currently going on. I find I simply cannot go home or communicate. Mudpuppy, I have really been put in a similar situation by being ostrasized by my family because I do not accept the status quo. I don't think I am unreasonable to question these things. Do you think I am out of place doing so? Patz
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Ns never look for information; they already know everything there is to know. One thing you will never hear them say is 'Well, I never knew that! How interesting! You learn something new every day!!'
More likely is a disgusted tone, saying; 'I thought everyone knew that!'
October, you've met my mother haven't you? :wink:
May I add, when they're pretending to consider something you've said which is new to them: "You do have such interesting thoughts" or "don't you see things in a strange way?" and then they change the subject, real quick.
...sorry out of sync here... Patz, I think you're being reasonable, what else can you do?
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Portia:
I really don't know. Other than staying away from my family which is a solution. I try to accept what I can and leave the parts I cannot. I have been put in a untentable postion of "choosing sides" because of their business issues and the issues surrounding their children. Considering both of my parents are dead, they are the only family I have. I also have a hard time with trust issues because of past N relationships. I have aquaintances and maybe 1 or 2 close friends, but no relationships with men. It is much more preferable to me not to pursue any relationships with men because I really fear my judgement........what if I get involved in another N relationship..........the last one was devastating. Simply cannot expose myself to the possiblity. That is were things are with me presently. Patz
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Patz,
In my personal experience (i.e., in my family) confronting an N parent about their child-rearing is not the way to go. They refuse to take it in, so it's a waste of time. What I do is focus on the child and be there for them. I pretty much ignore the parents totally.
Since you have a teenage nephew with conduct disorder, it will be very hard for you to reach him. I don't know if you can. Plus you have to protect your child from his bad influence. But my vote is to focus on the teen and see what's going on with him. Ask him about things he's interested in. He may not talk to you but what if he does? He really needs an adult role model.
bunny
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Ns never look for information; they already know everything there is to know. One thing you will never hear them say is 'Well, I never knew that! How interesting! You learn something new every day!!'
More likely is a disgusted tone, saying; 'I thought everyone knew that!'
October, you've met my mother haven't you? :wink:
...sorry out of sync here... Patz, I think you're being reasonable, what else can you do?
No, Patz, you are not being unreasonable. You are doing what you can, even if you can see that it is not having much effect. What else can any of us do?
Portia, if your mother is anything like mine, then I feel for you!!! (Not in competition with you on this!! Just empathy. :D )
My mum, when she hears something she doesn't want to hear, goes all spaced out. She stares into space, with a martyred look on her face, and disappears. She keeps that up for as long as it takes. So usually I keep asking and asking for a response, to not allow her to space out. :twisted:
Her best response then is very vague. She will say. 'Well ..... ' and never find the end of the sentence. Or she will say, 'Think what you like.' or 'Do what you want'. Passive aggressive.
I mentioned to her recently that her hearing is going. This is very evident to the whole family, but she will not admit it. Her responses were similar to above. First she blanked me. Then when I continued to ask about this, her answers (all avoiding the issue) included; 'None of us are getting any younger!', 'Well, I don't need a hearing aid yet!', and 'I am not in my dotage yet!'
Each time I replied, 'That is not what I said. What I said is that your hearing is not what it once was, and that you could get this checked out.'
She cannot do this because that would be admitting that she is less than perfect. She is the only person in the family not to have glasses; not because she doesn't need them. She does. But she will not admit that she does. In her fantasy world she has 20:20 vision. And hearing.
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Amen to that! Although any t worth their salt would not take long to see through an N, and it would not be to your harm for them to have evidence of what has been your experience.
I am sure A wanted to dish the dirt on you, and tell your t how to 'cure' you. In my experience Ns never look for information; they already know everything there is to know. One thing you will never hear them say is 'Well, I never knew that! How interesting! You learn something new every day!!'
More likely is a disgusted tone, saying; 'I thought everyone knew that!'
Thankyou October!! I felt sooooo sane after I read your words!! You are so right!! Are you sure A has not been to visit you? It's just that A uses that exact sentence and other equally genious-proclaiming expressions religiously!!!
The thing about that particular t was that she was one of the ones that traumatized me further and I wouldn't have put it past her to hook up with A and have me committed!!! Double Thank God I kept quiet!!!!
...when she hears something she doesn't want to hear, goes all spaced out. She stares into space, with a martyred look on her face, and disappears. She keeps that up for as long as it takes. So usually I keep asking and asking for a response, to not allow her to space out.
Holey Toledo!!! That's what my t kept doing in those sessions!!!! She would ask a question.....and I would give an answer....and then, she'd do that space thingy......and then I'd try to check and see if she heard me.....and she'd get an angry look and in an irritated voice snarl: "yes".....and then go all spacey again....and then.....look off into the distance....and next......say: "But.....no!" (like she'd had some major revelation--and as if everything I'd just said was worthless) and then look at me and ask me another question... and turn away again, as soon as I started to answer and do the space thingy all over again!!! :shock:
It made me feel like I was talking to an alien......or in a different language or something. No feedback. No positive reinforcement. No insight. No indicating she understood or that she was trying to be sure about my feelings (although sometimes rude criticisms like: "You sound good but..." without finishing and leaving me wondering wtf she was saying???).
Nothing helpful. No real eye contact or giving me body language that indicated she was accepting, or listening, or even in the same room with me, or even on the same planet! :shock:
This should be in the t thread, I guess.
I was so messed up at that time that I really didn't know what to do. The only thing I did right was document as much as I could remember, every time I left. I was journalling everything, then, so I could examine it and see if I was losing it??? or feeling the same...later??? or feeling worse or what?? I figgered out that this woman was a nutbar!!!! But...I was in shock when I first went to her and thought she must know what she's doing!!! Jeepers!!! :x
I guess I do have a question that applies......which is:
Is this space thingy N related or is it some other disorder?? I haven't seen anyone else speak of it here.
GFN
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GFN: re; the spacey thing. My exN does it all the time, so does my neighbor/friend (major N). They are simply NOT listening to you. They are thinking about something they deem much more important, and that is WHAT THEY ARE ABOUT TO SAY! It is futile to call them on it. They don't even hear that either....and if you say something, it will be used to attack you! The only thing that keeps me in contact with my friend is that she sometimes notices it, and says, my god, I'm so sorry....but then she does it again, but maybe there is hope for her. My ex is a lost cause.
Patz: your nephew's parents are every teacher's nightmare! Not your nephew, his parents! I am a teacher, and I deal with dozens of those parents everyyear (I teach in an "upscale" area). We struggle with this problem always. WE can teach just about anything (manners, responsibility) but NEVER if it is undermined at home. It's spitting into the wind. I would keep your son away from his cousin's influence if at all possible, or at least supervise any time they have together. You brother sounds like a shit, his wife just as bad, and they are training a sociopath.
I am sooo sorry they are your family.
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Holey Toledo!!! That's what my t kept doing in those sessions!!!! She would ask a question.....and I would give an answer....and then, she'd do that space thingy......and then I'd try to check and see if she heard me.....and she'd get an angry look and in an irritated voice snarl: "yes".....and then go all spacey again....and then.....look off into the distance....and next......say: "But.....no!" (like she'd had some major revelation--and as if everything I'd just said was worthless) and then look at me and ask me another question... and turn away again, as soon as I started to answer and do the space thingy all over again!!! :shock:
GFN, I believe October was describing her mother, not her bad therapist. If a therapist was behaving this way, that is CRAZY. Where did this individual come from??!? She is a fruitcake!
bunny
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GFN: re; the spacey thing. My exN does it all the time, so does my neighbor/friend (major N). They are simply NOT listening to you. They are thinking about something they deem much more important, and that is WHAT THEY ARE ABOUT TO SAY! It is futile to call them on it. They don't even hear that either....and if you say something, it will be used to attack you!
Thanks Mum!!! That's exactly what she did (attack) sometimes!!! I was flabbergasted when she did that!!! :shock:
Wanna know how stupid I am.........I thought it was some....technique!!! :oops: :oops: :oops: Jeepers!!!
She was supposed to be a trauma specialist!!!!
Special agent N, I think now!!!!! :x :twisted:
Hi Bunny:
GFN, I believe October was describing her mother, not her bad therapist.
Yes, I realized that but it was the behaviour......spaced out thingy that hit me like a bullet!!!! :shock:
If a therapist was behaving this way, that is CRAZY. Where did this individual come from??!? She is a fruitcake!
NO kidding!!! She had credentials/a licence, was highly recomended by someone who knew someone who went to her and thought she was:
"Fantastic!!!"
I guess...if you love fruitcake. :roll:
Boy! No wonder I felt so abused and tormented by her. I used to physically shake for 1/2 hour before each visit and it took me a week to get over it!! I'm serious!!! A week!!! And then it would be time to go again. :(
It was awful. The good news is, when I finally came out of shock.....I started reading my journal and telling myself that I deserved better than this!!! I needed to feel comfortable and able to express my feelings and to trust and get something.....some inkling of positive feedback. I needed to get away from this loonie!!! She was hurting me more than I already was.
The person I found....was really a wonderful, very knowledgable, experienced, kind, sensible, etc person and helped me so much. :)
Triple Thank God! Or I'd be an in-patient by now.
Sorry to go off topic and hijack this thread like that.
GFN
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She would ask a question.....and I would give an answer....and then, she'd do that space thingy......and then I'd try to check and see if she heard me.....and she'd get an angry look and in an irritated voice snarl: "yes".....and then go all spacey again....and then.....look off into the distance....and next......say: "But.....no!" (like she'd had some major revelation--and as if everything I'd just said was worthless) and then look at me and ask me another question... and turn away again, as soon as I started to answer and do the space thingy all over again!!! :shock:
It made me feel like I was talking to an alien......or in a different language or something. No feedback. No positive reinforcement. No insight. No indicating she understood or that she was trying to be sure about my feelings (although sometimes rude criticisms like: "You sound good but..." without finishing and leaving me wondering wtf she was saying???).
Nothing helpful. No real eye contact or giving me body language that indicated she was accepting, or listening, or even in the same room with me, or even on the same planet! :shock:
Well, I will try to imagine what is going on inside the t's head in this situation, by the nightmare expedient of making my Nmum into the therapist, which incidentally she would loooooooove.
T asks 'Tell me about your childhood'
You start to answer '.................
T spaces out, assumes martyred air and thinks 'Nobody had a childhood worse than mine. Nobody really understands me. (sighs) What is the point of even trying to help this stupid person, when they don't have the first idea what they are saying, or what I could do if only they would answer the questions right. What a waste of time this is! I wonder what I should have for dinner tonight?'
You say something like 'Did you hear what I said?' You have to say it two or three times, and eventually get through.
T gets cross at the interruption. 'Of course I heard. Carry on' Spaces out again.
Continues for 1 hour. Result for someone suffering from trauma; retraumatisation. No wonder it took a week to recover. :(
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Hi everyone especially patz,
I've been out in the woods a couple of days. I'm pooped, I got laryngitis and a nice headache but I just saw Patz's question so I'll be a trooper and answer, cause Patz is 8) .
Patz wrote,
Mudpuppy, I have really been put in a similar situation by being ostrasized by my family because I do not accept the status quo. I don't think I am unreasonable to question these things. Do you think I am out of place doing so?
You're asking me if you're out of place for questioning your brother's behavior? I'm suing my brother for his behavior.
They are out of place, for ruining their child who is the most important responsibility they were given, for trying to drag you into their business mess and their petty infantile N squabbles, for just being Ns and choosing to bring ugliness and harm to others so their own pathetic little egos are protected, but especially for using their sister as a weapon to manipulate in their crummy little lives.
It is an HONOR for you to be ostracised for doing the right thing and sticking up for the truth! That doesn't mean it is pleasant, but the alternative is to bury yourself and your self respect under a mountain of compromise and manipulation. The fact that you stand for a little human decency and the truth makes me respect you, and I'll bet it makes those who know you personally respect you as well. I consider you the honor guard for your family, and I am proud of your strength..
I have aquaintances and maybe 1 or 2 close friends, but no relationships with men. It is much more preferable to me not to pursue any relationships with men because I really fear my judgement........what if I get involved in another N relationship..........the last one was devastating. Simply cannot expose myself to the possiblity. That is were things are with me presently.
You have responded several times to my posts and they have always been very sweet. I'm a man and I consider you my friend, so there, you have a relationship with a man. :D
Listen, Brigid has already said I could be her little brother, so if you'll let me, I'll be your brother too. :D
I think you're doing the right thing and I think you are the cat's pajamas for doing it.
God bless you Patz.
mudpuppy
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Mudpuppy:
Thank you for your reply. It is very sad for me to see what my brother has done to my nephew. He has treated him as an extension of himself and to live vicariously through him. This was regardless of what the child wanted.
All of this is doubly hard because I have a disabled child. My hope and desire was for my neices and nephews to take an interest in my son. This has not been the case at all. I am sure part of it is due to the fact I live 1500 miles away and they do not see him on an ongoing basis. However, whenever I DO go home, they make no effort to see either me or him. I remember going home for about 3 weeks and my younger brother came by to see me only once. I thought I would take the intiative and tell him that if he would call I would be happy to go to lunch or whatever, just to let me know. He never did call. So my thought is even if I live there in the same town with them, this would be the kind of ongoing treatment I and my son would receive. We would be invisible.
This is a long way of telling you that now as I go to make my will, I am truly at a loss to know who or where to leave guardianship for my son. My family does NOT have any interest at all. This is even after I have made my desires known.
I do not go home for a variety of reasons, but the paramount one is not exposing my son to their indifference. He has his own desires and is a very sweet person, it would not really cost them much to pay just a little attention to him. Prehaps to take him to McDonalds a movie. I tried to make allowances for my nieces and nephews by thinking "Well, they are young, have not had the exposure to special needs individuals etc." The conclusion I arrived at was that if rank strangers treat my son with consideration, what is THEIR problem besides self-absorption?
So much like you I grapple with the fact I cannot accept their boorish behavior, their indifference. You should see what they do for themselves for Christmas! I kid you not that it is impossible to hardly get around the tree because gifts are piled up so high. Yet they cannot find it within themselves to maybe give my son a $12 CD? So I quit giving them anything and told my brother they were adult now and that I was going to give to the Angel Tree at the YMCA or support a needy family through my Sunday School. He really got miffed about it all.
So I just don't go home. We are invisible if we are there. So I have tried to the best of my ability to carve out a life for myself and son where I live. I was fortunate enough to move into a state that had the necessary supports for my son after I am dead and gone. So I am currently trying to do those things in a long term way that will benefit him. Like I bought a new house, not for me , but for him. I have structured his day so he spends most of his afternoons at the YWCA with a care provider that does things with him. We are currently going to church and has a Sunday School class that is special needs for adults. So I am trying hard to provide a predicable life for him (and as every child needs). I just wish I had the support of my family. I really grieve about this because not for myself but for my child. I don't know what to do about the guardenship issue. I have prayed about this and am waiting on the Lord to give me answers. It might just be an evolving issue and I must wait. Thank you for listening. Any comments would be appreciated. Love, Patz
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October, This therapist should not have a license to practice. I'm very sorry you were abused and harmed by this individual. Can you complain to her licensing board? Have you ever told your current counselor about this loser?
Patz, Your brothers are monsters. I'm so sorry that they are such a**holes. They are horrible people and remind me of characters in a Victorian novel like Oliver Twist. :cry:
bunny
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Hi Patz,
My first reaction is, why are there so many a**holes in the world? But of course that doesn't do you any good, as you've probably thought it yourself a thousand times.
So let me ask a few questons instead.
Do you think keeping in contact with your brothers is good for you or your son?
Do you have hopes that your brothers will ever be decent?
Is keeping in contact with them hindering your search for friends and companions where you are at?
In other words, do you think you are afraid to replace your broken family with good people because you think there is still hope for your brothers?
Does your experience with your brothers make it hard to open up to people where you are at now?
Do you know someone you trust who you think you could approach about guardianship of your son?
Are there any agencies you can contact that could put you in touch with a family that adopts special needs people, in case of ?
I don't know the answers to any of those questions Patz, or if the answers would even help, but I do know the Lord is listening to your prayers and when it is time you will receive your answer. Cast your cares on him and He will sustain you, it says in Proverbs, and I believe it.
And as far as your brothers are concerned I think bunny pretty much said it all.
God bless, I wish I could do more.
I don't usually do this mushy stuff, but ((((((Patz))))))
mudpup
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Dear Mudpuppy and bunny,
Thanks again for your thoughtful replies. I have often thought that my family came out of the movie "Deliverance". I have not said much but my life started out with my father not wanting me etc. I have been an overcomer much of my life. When my child was born and it was becoming apparent that he was a special needs child, I really put everything on the back burner for him. In doing so it has paid dividends because on a scale of 1-10, the doctor said he was a 9. He has now developed into a very handsome young man who has many interests and is quite pleasureable to be around.
I keep in touch with my middle brother and much of the conversation is one sided. He might ask about my son but moves on to topics of interests such as what he is doing in his business, what he is doing with building his new house, what he is doing with his 5th wheel RV, how wronged he feels about my other brother and their business difficulties. Why do I keep in touch? In the event anything goes wrong hopefully he will have that empathy to come see about us. Otherwise I minimize the amount of contact I have with him because of his lifestyle. It is a very self absorbed lifestyle. What people can do for him, what he is going to acquire, what his next project is going to be etc. I don't think it is necessarily hindering my companionship choices or necessarily making friends with others. I do think because of my past relationship with my now deceased n husband, my n father it makes it hard to open up to other individuals until I see what they are about.
I am currently in the process of really beginning to make what I call close friendships to replace my broken family. My family of origin is totally fragmented. My ability to call upon them for much has been very limited. I pretty well have been taking care of myself much of my life and it makes it very hard to relinquish that to another individual. You will find that some women who have been in that position for a length of time, have a hard time with control issues especially when it comes to their children and money. I would have to be honest and tell you that I would probably fall into that catagory.
I think it is in part because my n husband ran us into 150k debt and I had to force him to get out and get a better paying job. He thought he was in retirement and was a 43 year old man! He did get a better job and I was able to dig us out within about 2 half years. Had to eat beans to do it, but I did it. He accused me of spending all the money when in fact I was retiring debt as fast as I could. That was a real trip Mudpuppy. So relinquishing financial control would be hard for me. The give and take in a relationship would have a lot to overcome. I am not going to put any man through that.
My church has what they call the Stephen Ministry which have really qualified lay people helping other with life decisions. They all have to go through a training process and are led by groups of professionals. This is how the laity of the church reach out to others. I am thinking seriously about contacting this aspect of my church and begin working on the guardenship issues through this. Also the Association of Retarded Citizens have what they call a living will. There are aspects of this where I would have to reliquish monetary control of my son's estate on my death. I am not sure about this. There seems to be a lot of loop holes and might not be in my son's interests. So you see there is a lot of ground work to laid before I can set up any "Special Needs Trust". I just think it is going to take time before things "gel" so to speak, and I need to give myself that time.
I do know one thing. The probability of my nieces and nephews helping right now is zilich. To be fair I also know that young people are absorbed finding their own way in life and establishing themselves. All this might change as they approach their 30's and 40's and only time will tell this. What is true today is not true tomorrow. I only know that I come from a family "of the self absorbed". The probability of my brothers or yours changing at this juncture is nil. We can only look after ourselves and family. I did not mean to run on about this and not be encouraging to you and bunny. It just seems at times that "nice" people do finish last? I know the Lord has told us that the rain falls on the just and the unjust but at times it does seems it is not evenly spread around dosen't it?
Mudpuppy at this juncture you are doing probably the thing left for you to do in suing your brother. If your retirement is endangered because of this, then you have no choice, especially if your effort has made the business what it is today. Is there any way you can employ a forensic cpa type to help you reconstruct what was done or not done in the business and your contribution to the business......its worth? Again thanks for being here. Love, Patz
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Hi Patz,
To me your post is very encouraging. You are taking good, positive steps to take care of your son. I'm confident they will bear fruit.
I have often thought that my family came out of the movie "Deliverance".
Was that one of your brothers sittin' on the bridge picking the banjo at the start of the movie? :shock: :shock: He still gives me nightmares. :D
Can I give you a little encouragement? A lot of what you say sounds like you are discouraged because of where you are right now. But you're not going to be there in a year or a month or even a day. As long as you are taking steps to recover from your family, you are making progress. Sometimes it is hideously slow progress, but then one day we dare to look back and we can't believe how far we have come.
Who says you need a man anyway? But if one who is compatible with you does come along, you'll find it much easier to cooperate than you think, I bet.
It just seems at times that "nice" people do finish last? I know the Lord has told us that the rain falls on the just and the unjust but at times it does seems it is not evenly spread around dosen't it?
You know I'm a Christian, I think, so I'll just tell you it is irrelevant where we finish this race. This is just the dress rehearsal. You will receive your rewards for the way you have given your life for your son, and the way you have tried to get along with impossible people.
Don't remember the verse about the rain. Remember this one.
"The last shall be first, and the first shall be last."
God bless, Patz
mudpuppy
PS. About a forensic CPA, the vast majority of our assets are in the form of real esatate so all we really needed was an appraiser. That's one good thing about land, its pretty hard to hide. :wink: :wink:
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Mudpuppy:
Thanks for your uplifting comments. In reality I am probably futher along than I give myself credit for. The first and formost is recognizing the limitations of my family and using my on "internal resources" as it were to push ahead. Sometimes you have all these thoughts in your mind and when you put it down on "paper" and have feedback from others it helps to crystalize the next "step".
Glad to see that your assets are tangible and hard to hide. That should make it easier when the rubber meets the road so to speak in court. Just presevere and know you are on the right path.
Have a blessed day,
Patz
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Hello everyone:
Just peeking in after being away for a week and for once, I remembered to check back, at least in this thread, where I posted. Can't promise I'll remember to check every place so I hope if others posted to me and I miss posting back that you'll please accept my appology for forgetting.
October wrote:
Well, I will try to imagine what is going on inside the t's head in this situation, by the nightmare expedient of making my Nmum into the therapist, which incidentally she would loooooooove.
T asks 'Tell me about your childhood'
You start to answer '.................
T spaces out, assumes martyred air and thinks 'Nobody had a childhood worse than mine. Nobody really understands me. (sighs) What is the point of even trying to help this stupid person, when they don't have the first idea what they are saying, or what I could do if only they would answer the questions right. What a waste of time this is! I wonder what I should have for dinner tonight?'
You say something like 'Did you hear what I said?' You have to say it two or three times, and eventually get through.
T gets cross at the interruption. 'Of course I heard. Carry on' Spaces out again.
Continues for 1 hour. Result for someone suffering from trauma; retraumatisation. No wonder it took a week to recover.
October, are you sure you weren't a fly on the wall of my therapy sessions with this lunatic??
Thankyou for validating my experinece. It was very much as you have described except that I was terrified of this woman and the power she had over my situation (or the power I thought she had--which turned out to be waaaayyyy less than I had been told), and I have not really tried to imagine what was going on in her head with any detail. I was tooooo into trying to get a grip at the time and I just felt traumatized and retraumatized, as you put it, each and every time I went there. Later, when I felt healthier, I just buried my memory of her in a drawer maked: "batty" and left it there. Probably not the best way I could have concluded our experience together.....I'm sure I felt angry for her "treatment" of me and a whole wack of stuff, but I'm also pretty sure I banged her head a few times when I visualized it on my bongo drums, so I'm fairly over most of it.
Still....knowing that someone else can imagine such a thing happening and can understand how I felt......really feels good October. Thankyou.
Bunny: The therapist was mine.
This therapist should not have a license to practice.
Yes. There are even better reasons for removing it....for example...she insisted that I call my doctor and have my medication changed from one that seemed to me to be working ok... to one she was sure I should be on. She had no licence to issue medication orders and no place directing me or anyone else to take anything. She was so adamant about it and so positive that this is what I must do that I did what she said and called my doctor and relayed her instructions.
I took one pill and that night.....I thought I was going to die!!! Truly!!Every single nerve in my body felt on fire and I have never experienced such terrifying anxiety, or horrible fear-filled thinking ....even including the abuse I suffered as a child. I felt utterly frozen in my bed, paralysed, unable to move, this awful burning every where, horrified and I layed there for 7 hours without moving. I would have called for an ambulance had I been able. When it wore off, I was so relieved and thankful to be alive!!! That night I took the stuff my doctor had originally prescribed and told myself it would be ok to ignor my therapist's instructions.
At our next session, I told her what had happened and she asked me to bring in the bottle of that medication, so she could give it to someone less fortunate, since I wasn't going to be using it!!!!! :shock: :shock:
I knew it was a strange request but I did as she said. I was in such a state of shock, confusion and fear that I really acted a bit like a zombie.
I'm very sorry you were abused and harmed by this individual. Can you complain to her licensing board? Have you ever told your current counselor about this loser?
Thanks Bunny. I could complain but I did give her very personal information and I feel so not like having to deal with anything she might decide to bring up, or with any picture of me she might decide to try to create, that I'm just not up to dealing with it. Besides.....how can I prove anything? Her word against mine. And years have since passed.
I told my next counsellor all of what I've said here and more and she suggested that possibly sometime in the future I might decide to make a complaint. When I feel strong enough.
Ya. :roll:
Maybe....in my next life.
Even that counselor fell suddenly ill and was forced to retire quickly, so she in not an available witness. And my doctor has also since retired.
Mudpuppy: Sorry to hear you were feeling under the weather. Hope you are much better now!
Patz: God bless you. May the sun soon shine on you and your son!
GFN
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GFN,
Sorry if I confused your experience with another's. Your former therapist is a psychopath. I'm not saying this lightly. I am horrified. If you complained about her, your word would trump hers. In these situations, the therapist is guilty until proven innocent. And it doesn't matter whether two of the people who know are retired. As long as they aren't dead. Anyway, I'm sorry it happened. It's too awful. I'm absolutely stunned and horrified. I'm also appalled that your M.D. listened to this idiot. He also has a problem.
bunny
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Hi again Bunny:
Sorry if I confused your experience with another's.
No worries Bunny. It's easy enough to do in these threads.
Your former therapist is a psychopath. I'm not saying this lightly.
I don't know if she's a psychopath or not but I do think she stepped a way out of line and should not hold a licence to practice her profession. On the other hand....I am the coward who could make all of that happen for her but unfortunately for others and goodie for her......I'm not prepared to do it.
I do think she has helped a lot of people during her career and so that helps to restrain my guilt for not chasing her to her board of licensure. I also think, she helped many, many who were in the exact opposite of my situation and that she could not empathize with me because of her own personal feelings and views. She made some big bad choices......such as the medication directive...and for this alone she deserves to face the consequences. On the other hand.....I am not at all feeling strong enough to face her and what she might say about me. It doesn't matter if any of it were true or not.....I've already learned that lesson.
I am horrified.
Yes. What a nutbar eh?
If you complained about her, your word would trump hers. In these situations, the therapist is guilty until proven innocent.
I'd like to believe you but I doubt it very much.
And it doesn't matter whether two of the people who know are retired. As long as they aren't dead.
Yes. That's very true. I never considered that. Thanks again. Maybe some day....
Anyway, I'm sorry it happened. It's too awful. I'm absolutely stunned and horrified.
Thanks Bunny. I am too when I think about it. Especially since I hold the same licence she does and know very well how severely incompetent and disgraceful her conduct was...in many instances.
I'm also appalled that your M.D. listened to this idiot. He also has a problem.
I was very surprised that when I called my doc's office and spoke with her secretary, giving the secretary instructions from this therapist, that my doc would actually order the med, over the phone like that, to the pharmacy. I would have thought she would have asked to see me.
However, I have made errors myself, in my career, so I can't really condem anyone. The whole situation was a mess and I was a mess and the therapist made it worse. To me....she still just seems like some nutbar trying to prove herself to be something she is not....competent.
And I am too chicken to take her on because I could lose my licence for bringing that bottle of medication to her office and giving it to her (or maybe not.....depending on whether or not I was believed to be in that awful state I was in.....and that is too big a if....for me).
GFN
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I do think she has helped a lot of people during her career and so that helps to restrain my guilt for not chasing her to her board of licensure. I also think, she helped many, many who were in the exact opposite of my situation and that she could not empathize with me because of her own personal feelings and views.
I find it hard to believe she's helped anyone unless by accident. She is very abusive and sadistic. And if she can't empathize with you because of her personal feelings, she shouldn't be a therapist. That's the entire point of being one. She's evil.
Oh, you don't have to take her on. Possibly others have already complained about her, or will. You would NOT lose your license for bringing her the meds. In these situations the patient is considered very vulnerable and isn't held responsible for what happens in a session. The therapist is held responsible. I don't blame you for not taking action. But I hope she gets into big trouble.
bunny
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Thanks Bunny.
I hope she gets into big trouble too.
GFN
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October, are you sure you weren't a fly on the wall of my therapy sessions with this lunatic??
Thankyou for validating my experinece. GFN
See one N you've seen 'em all!!!! Lol!!!!!!!
You are welcome. Glad to be of use. :D