Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Screamer on March 07, 2005, 10:58:49 AM
-
Hello to all!
I would like to pose a question to the group. Are you ever afraid that you show N traits? Do you worry about how often you use the word "I" or how much you talk about yourself? Are you ever concerned that you are selfish?
Lately it seems that I am obsessing about this. I am very concerned that maybe I learned and exhibit N patterns as the child of an N.
Just wondering if anyone else has experienced this. Does anyone do anything specific to make sure they are not being N-ish?
Screamer
-
Screamer,
Yes, I can relate to this. This whole topic is so new to me so I am trying to learn and understand all the various aspects of it. I know that current H is N from my therapist, but strongly suspect first H was also, along with father (who has been dead for 5 years) from the reading I have done. I do start seeing myself in some of the descriptions of N traits. I knowthat I have empathy and I know that I do not lie, so I don't think I could be intensely N, but I think if you have been surrounded by it all your life you are bound to pick up some of the traits as a defense mechanism. Those of you who have more knowledge and experience can probably respond to this more intelligently, but I do have worries about this. Since beginning to learn more, I am more conscious of when I am talking about myself or seeking attention. I guess the awareness is a good thing and can help to monitor that behavior.
My 2 Cents worth.
Brigid
-
Screamer, I also still worry about this despite that fact that I beat myself up, not other people. It really helps me to go back and reread the DSM definition for NPD and compare myself to people I know are NPD. Its no contest. I'm not even close to pathological N. Keep in mind that everyone has and needs healthy N to assert themselves.
I was called an "N" once by a flaming N for using "I" and talking about myself, but after I left the picture he pissed everyone else off too. I was just the first target in his alienation-fest. :twisted:
The problem with pathological N's is NOT using the word "I." If you started saying "you, you, you" and pointing fingers all the time I'd be a lot more worried. The problem N's have is not realizing that there are other, separate individuals out there who are NOT merged with them. I use the "I" word and talk about myself because I'm the only person I "know" and I have a responsibility to communicate my needs and wants so others don't have to guess.
-
The problem with pathological N's is NOT using the word "I." If you started saying "you, you, you" and pointing fingers all the time I'd be a lot more worried. The problem N's have is not realizing that there are other, separate individuals out there who are NOT merged with them. I use the "I" word and talk about myself because I'm the only person I "know" and I have a responsibility to communicate my needs and wants so others don't have to guess.
Perfect! Ought to be in a text book somewhere!
mudpuppy
-
I also worry that I have N traits. I often notice myself seeking attention. It has become embarrassing. I admit that I feel relieved that at least I am embarrased by it------ it is soooo embarrassing. I'm glad I noticed. Also, I say the word i a lot which has also become embarrassing. I think that understanding why you(I????) are doing something so that you can get your need or whatever it is met in a healthier and more wholesome way ( negative attention = bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh!!!!!!!) would help out. I don't think we should punish ourselves for our N-ish behavior. THat will only make us more Nish!!! oooops!!!
-
I think the fact that you are even concerned keeps you out of the N catagory.
We all talk about ourselves, and Longtire had a great description and explanation! I think he is dead on.
Also, one of the things that people in our lives (probably N's) tend to do to us, is attack where we are most vulnerable...get us where we live so to speak. For me, it's calling me selfish (which I am not, to a fault). Ironically, those are the people who are trying to keep me in a position where they can take advantage of me, or use me for something. They know it's my soft side and that accusing me of that (used to)change my behavoir to thier liking.
I think a lot of that: "oh, god, am I selfish....I just talked to much.....I took up too much of their time, etc"..... really can be translated into: "I am not really worthy of having an opinion, oh, I don't really know that much, who do I think I am?, people don't really want to hear from me, I am not worthy, bad me, poor me,"etc. etc. This is all negative self talk, and in my life, it is the tape I recorded of the sounds of various negative experiences/people in my life story. MY life story. So I'm currently re-recording it!!
:wink: :wink:
-
The problem with pathological N's is NOT using the word "I." If you started saying "you, you, you" and pointing fingers all the time I'd be a lot more worried. The problem N's have is not realizing that there are other, separate individuals out there who are NOT merged with them. I use the "I" word and talk about myself because I'm the only person I "know" and I have a responsibility to communicate my needs and wants so others don't have to guess.
Perfect! Ought to be in a text book somewhere!
Oh Yes!! I agree. You've really said it like a pro, Longtire! It's so important to work on self-esteem, especially if one has experienced abuse and nearly impossible to work on this....without...using the "I" word. It's not a sin to use it. It's a sin....to abuse it ( :D ).
GFN
-
Longtire.....you have got it in a nutshell. The worst that can be said about using the "I" word is that maybe you are self-absorbed which can be a very good thing when you are trying to figure out how you got into this mess of being involved with a narcissist. When I was quite young and being the offspring of a narcissist and trying to figure out what was going on I used the "I" word quite a lot and someone pointed that out to me. It was like a light bulb going off. Someone (the N) had me so confused that I was only focussing on myself and that was all I had to give. I guess it was a cathartic moment for me or in the current popular jargon, an epiphany. I still use that pronoun quite a lot but I also encourage others to use it also. So I think now I have conversations with people and not manipulations or blame games. Thanks for making this point.
-
Signs that you are not an N. You -
- say 'thank you' and mean it
- say 'please' and do not expect to have every need met by others
- acknowledge others' existence (e.g. apologising for taking their time)
and very tellingly
- know when you're responsible for harsh words, or ignoring someone who is hurt, and you take that responsibility for your actions. You can handle it because you can tolerate guilt and shame.
- say 'sorry' and mean it.
-
Screamer, I didn't answer your question in that last post!
Do you worry about how often you use the word "I" or how much you talk about yourself? Are you ever concerned that you are selfish?
Talking about yourself is not N-ish as Longtire has said so well.
Using the word I is helpful to kids of Ns. Use it more Screamer!
Being self-ish (yes?) is partly how we survive. Being selfish is okay if it is intended towards good things. E.g. I'm very selfish with my time around people who want to steal my time. I'm becoming selfish with my 'listening' sympathy towards people who have zero empathy. It's a waste of time.
If you think you're being selfish, ask yourself: who is dying because of my selfishness? Who am I hurting? Then compare yourself to a global corporation! If you're with someone who isn't an N, ask them - "do you think I'm being selfish?" - the results can surprise. What do you think Screamer?
-
I agree with all of these posts-- many of the narcissists I know rarely say "I"-- they spend most of their conversation putting other people down, complaining that others don't appreciate/worship them enough, and plotting against other people. Some of the most malignant narcissists are impossible to read as people because they don't seem to have an "I." You ask them for their opinion and the whole time they answer it's clear they picked their answer to manipulate you or to sound a certain way. Tomorrow the answer could be totally different. It's the weirdest feeling. I've felt it often :( My workplace has these types- really icky.
I do think those of us with n parents (my hands are up for that one-- both of them!) learned really odd ways of dealing with people from them. So we (or at least I) have to unlearn those habits. It's not hard for us in the way it would be for them to change because for us it's just ignorance leading to the behavior, not anything underlying and broken. But it irritates me that they left that legacy, along with everything else.
-
Hello all:
Vunil: It must be a real challenge (to say the least) working with these types at your work. Hopefully, there are some non-N-ish types too. I know what you mean though....been there....done that. In the long run, I felt sorry for those people because when it comes down to it...the ones I worked with.....were clearly unhappy people and it seemed impossible for them to ever be happy. Sad. :(
I think we all have N traits/behaviours and that's ok. It's like you say......if change is needed....it can and will happen. Most people aren't disordered by these traits/behaviours. Most people don't abuse. To me...that's the biggest sign of N....abusing....especially....without ever taking responsiblity for it or acknowledging it.
GFN
-
vunil:
I remember my SO continually putting other people down. We would go to resturants and he would talk about that woman or that woman being a "lesbo" or a "bimbo". I would ask how he knew this: He would say "I can tell by looking."
All the things you stated brought back memories. I remember we were passing by a house during Christmas one night. The people had decorated the outside of their house with lights. He started in on how "tacky" it looked and the kind of people in the house were probably a certain class of people and could not possibly be happy living like that. I finally told him "what right do I or you have to question how people live especially if they are happy." I was met with stone, cold slience. He felt he "knew" what would make people happy and that the way people lived, thought etc. if it were different than his was not possibly "right" and it was "unbelieveable". He was such a narc. Patz
-
Actually I read some things yesterday which have me very worried about this. I looked up "covert narcissist," which someone on this board had mentioned. It's hard to explain how the descriptions of the covert narcissist were disturbing. One of the things I kept reading was that Ns are created by early "narcisstic injury," which basically means being treated the way an N-parent treats one!! The following quote sums up my childhood better than anything I've ever read:
"The individual whose environment supports his or her grandiosity, and demands that he or she be more than possible... Such an individual is told 'you are superior to others', but at the same time his or her
personal feelings are ignored."
The quote also said that this individual "will develop to be an exhibitionist narcissist...To restore his or her feelings of adequacy the growing individual will attempt to coerce the environment into supporting his or her grandiose claims of superiority and perfection."
This (and other readings) really made me think about how I relate to other people, which often seems to consist of trying to get them to like me or protect me or take care of me or make me happy or make me look good. In other words, it is manipulative and it is concerned with THEM only insofar as they relate to ME. I know I've learned this behavior from being raised by a narcissist: In order to receive attention I had to manipulate the N by pretending to be exactly what they wanted me to be. This carries over into hiding my true feelings/thoughts as an adult because I'm worried that to express them would cause someone to "not like me anymore" or whatever. (Then, I think of myself as a victim and them as a monster because they're "taking advantage of me.") This seems to be exactly the person Vunil wrote about in this thread :!: :
Some of the most malignant narcissists are impossible to read as people because they don't seem to have an "I." You ask them for their opinion and the whole time they answer it's clear they picked their answer to manipulate you or to sound a certain way. Tomorrow the answer could be totally different.
I wonder whether I truly CARE about other people, or if I only care about them to the extent that they affect me. :( I'm really scared about this! :!: :(
I hope another thing Vunil said is true (the part about us being able to change):
I do think those of us with n parents ... learned really odd ways of dealing with people from them. So we .. have to unlearn those habits. It's not hard for us in the way it would be for them to change because for us it's just ignorance leading to the behavior, not anything underlying and broken.
[/quote]
-
Gwyn: Don't worry! As others have said, just the fact that you are worried about being an N, means you are not one! I think most people with N parents pick up some N traits along the way. To quote Counting Crows:"Ain't this position familiar darling, well all monkeys do what they see". (Not implying you are a monkey by the way :P ) Also, we all feel a need to be heard and to be liked, that is human nature.
You are aware that you might have a problem. Good! That is the first step to changing! I read somewhere, don't remember where, that when we start fretting that people like us, we should ask ourselves if we like them! this has helped me to kepp things in perspective.
Finally, go back to the newcomer thread and read the advice that you gave to me! :shock: Isn't it funny how it's always easier to help someone else than it is to help ourselves?
-
Sleepy:
Sometimes I think this "second guessing" is a consequence of the distorted reality we have suffered. Constantly questioning "is it me" because that is what we have been led to think. Patz
-
Patz, I am going through a horrible period of self-doubt right now coming out of my last therapy session. I find it really difficult to put my experience with my N wife in concrete observable terms. This really makes me question whether any of the behaviors I remember happened or whether I may have made it all up or misinterpreted everything. Yech!
-
How true Patz! We have heard all our lives that it is our "fault", it is our "problem", or that there is nothing wrong at all, and we are "crazy" for thinking so...Or maybe just for thinking for ourselves! :roll:
-
Gwyn:
I wonder whether I truly CARE about other people, or if I only care about them to the extent that they affect me.
It's not black or white. Are you a Saint? No. If someone beats you up do you still offer them your love? No. Unconditional love is for children, not for adults (unless you are that spiritually evolved, or you a Saint - and there simply aren't that many of those around).
Relationships are reciprocal. I do things for you not because I have to, but because I want to. Why do I want to? Because it makes me feel good! Very little is truly altruistic and that's okay.
Do you want to harm people so that you get en ego-kick from their suffering? Are you cruel? That's what you should worry about! Correction: that's what THEY should worry about...
I like your honesty Gwyn :)
-
Hi Gwen,
You wrote,
This (and other readings) really made me think about how I relate to other people, which often seems to consist of trying to get them to like me or protect me or take care of me or make me happy or make me look good. In other words, it is manipulative and it is concerned with THEM only insofar as they relate to ME.
If those are your criteria for unacceptable behavior then lets all go jump off a bridge together. We all NEED those things from other people. In a healthy relationship others give us those things knowing we will give them back. That isn't greed or selfishness, that is what connects us to each other. In fact it is one form of love.
God loves unconditionally, and so do children. I believe that is why He tells us to come to Him as a little child, but as adults in a fractured world we lose that ability with others. Love between adults is not a perfect thing, thats for sure. But that doesn't mean it isn't a wonderful thing anyway.
Its only when it becomes onesided, as between an N and a normal person, that it is perverted into something ugly and selfish.
You're not displaying N tendencies, you're displaying nice human tendencies, something Ns envy you for.
mudpuppy
-
Thanks for your supportive posts assuring me that I'm not an N!! It's definitely my black-and-white thinking again (which I advised sleepyhead against!) i.e., if I'm not all good, then I must be all bad.... In reality, it's just that I have some habits that it would be good for me to change, and that I'm just normal, not a saint!! Thanks for bringing things back into perspective :)
-
Also, one of the things that people in our lives (probably N's) tend to do to us, is attack where we are most vulnerable...get us where we live so to speak. For me, it's calling me selfish (which I am not, to a fault). Ironically, those are the people who are trying to keep me in a position where they can take advantage of me, or use me for something. They know it's my soft side and that accusing me of that (used to)change my behavoir to thier liking.
Mum,
Wow you really nailed! My mother has often called me selfish. Usually this is if she is not getting what she wants. A therapist once told me that people who are abusive will take something that is a value to you (like the desire to be a giving, self-less type of person) and turn it against you.
I guess that is what my mother does. Wow... it is enlightening to know that this happens to others... I'm not just crazy!
Screamer
-
If you think you're being selfish, ask yourself: who is dying because of my selfishness? Who am I hurting? Then compare yourself to a global corporation! If you're with someone who isn't an N, ask them - "do you think I'm being selfish?" - the results can surprise. What do you think Screamer?
This is great advice! I don't think I am hurting anyone. It's just that latley I seem to have so many needs, I worry that I am sapping all of my husband and friends energy.
My husband and I are trying to have a baby. But just last year I was diagnosed with diabetes and am now on insulin. We have talked to a specialist and have been assured that I can still have a health baby if I take the right precautions. It is just taking a lot of my energy. (See... I'm talking about my problems again!!!)
I worry that I may be so focused on getting healthy to have a baby and finishing my MBA, that I forget about others. For example, I have a friend I haven't seen in over a year. We just e-mail from time to time now. Between my health, my mother, moving, full-time school, full-time job, and attempting pregnancy... I feel so self-absorbed. My husband is sweet, but I worry so often that he is not getting his needs met. He tells me he is, but I worry.
Screamer
-
A therapist once told me that people who are abusive will take something that is a value to you (like the desire to be a giving, self-less type of person) and turn it against you.
So because I value my own moral integrity (which is non negotiable), and my sanity (which I try very hard to maintain), my t abuser attacked me in these specific areas. That makes a huge amount of sense.
So, what he actually meant was, that I am very sane, and of high moral integrity. And that he felt threatened by those things, because they exposed his own weaknesses, perhaps in those very areas.
My Nmum is the most selfish, self absorbed person I know. She calls my current illness 'attention seeking', and tells everyone to respond by ignoring it, and me, which they do.
Which means that she recognises that I do not court the limelight, and that I am self contained without anyone's approval, unlike herself. (Not true in actuality; I do need my friends, but not her, so that is what she sees!!)
Rather complimentary if we turn these round!! What fun!!
Thought of another one. A friend who called me thoughtless. I am one of the most thoughtful people I know. So it was his own problem he had identified (which is true) and he was threatened by my ability to consider others, and specifically himself.
Not sure I can sustain this. Very difficult to unravel the Alice in Wonderland world.
Last try. My brother told me to 'cut some slack' for a nuisance neighbour, after I established and maintained an appropriate boundary by complaining to the police about a loud, late night (4am) party.
So what he meant was that I am tolerant and understanding, not that I am not. And it is his own intolerance that he has a problem with. Which is true, he has anger issues.
Next time any of them accuse me of stuff like this, I am going to say, 'Thank you very much, that is a very kind thing to say.' Or perhaps not, but I will try to think it. :)
-
Octo and screamer,
So because I value my own moral integrity (which is non negotiable), and my sanity (which I try very hard to maintain), my t abuser attacked me in these specific areas. That makes a huge amount of sense.
A therapist once told me that people who are abusive will take something that is a value to you (like the desire to be a giving, self-less type of person) and turn it against you.
Is this the same as projection? I know when my brother accuses me of something, often times it isn't to get at me, its because he is in the process of doing it himself. If he tells me I'm having a nervous breakdown or acting greedy you can bet your bottom dollar (or pound, in your case October) that he is doing that very thing right then and there.
Screamer, good luck with the baby. Incidentally if your husband is sweet (like me :roll: ) he probably considers it a priviledge to give you extra help you when you need it. Its an honor to serve a really good wife.
October,
When did your social phobia begin, or get bad enough to be obtrusive? What helps it?
mudpuppy
-
screamer, october, mudpup:
"projection" has always confused me, but if that's what I described, perhaps I get it now??
My ex would always give me crap if a man looked at me or told me or him that I was attractive....he would say he imagined I was having an affair. Sometimes he would wake me up to tell me he dreamed I was cheating on him and proceed to treat me like shit for the day because of HIS dream!
All along, HE was cheating on ME (I never did, never would....).
Interesting.
-
Screamer:
I forget about others. For example, I have a friend I haven't seen in over a year. We just e-mail from time to time now.
Is it all your responsibility to maintain a friendship? Or does your friend make attempts to see you, and you say no? I wonder if you only look at what you do/don't do, and maybe looking at what others do will help.
If your friend hasn't made an attempt to see you, who's forgetting who? Please don't take all the responsibility/guilt on yourself.
-
October,
When did your social phobia begin, or get bad enough to be obtrusive? What helps it?
mudpuppy
It crept up on me while I wasn't looking. It started with avoidance, a normal part of ptsd. First you avoid the dark, and loud noises. Then you avoid crowds. And anger. Then you avoid any situation where anger has happened in the past, and anywhere that might get loud, or crowded. Then you avoid any situation which reminds you of places where there has been anger ...
It takes a few years, but eventually you get to the point where going out at all is a real problem. It can be done, but it costs a lot. Flashbacks, sleeplessness, replays over and over, thinking without being able to stop. Retraumatisation sometimes. Very bad stuff.
Staying at home is deadly dull, and bores the life out of me, but it keeps things calm and minimises symptoms.
What helps? Well, I thought therapy was helping, but if that stops before it helps enough, then I will get worse. Negative thinking - or maybe realism? Ha ha!! :lol: What else helps? Focussing on someone else rather than myself, and 'doing it for them'. Bypasses the fears and disconnects the hypervigilance a bit. Also gives sense of achievement, so is well worthwhile.
And meeting people online helps. :D
-
Can I interject please? (it's the 'J' again October, looking for conclusions...) October, if I asked, would you do something for me please? Or would you do it for The Board? Please? Stop deleting recent posts, say, posts only a week old. Delete anything over a week old, but anything under a week stays. How about it? Would you do that if I asked....? See what you think, you could even apply conditions if you like.. P
-
Screamer:
All the things you have listed are off the chart on the stress o meter. Exactly who is supporting you while you deal with your health issues and the difficulty in having a child? Who is helping you with getting your MBA? Who is helping you to move and all the other things you are trying to do at the same time? The point I am trying to make is that you are doing a TREMENDOUS job of taking care of yourself, and your future. This are issues that cannot be compromised. This is not self absorption.
I real a great deal on investments, books etc. Warren Buffet stated something that has stayed with me for a long time. He stated, I will paraphrase here, "that people are given a card in life. On this card we have about 20 financial hole punches that can last a life time. If you punch a hole on the wrong side it will cost you financially and emotionally. These can take the form of not going to school ( a wrong hole punch) going to school (a good hole punch) getting married to early (wrong hole punch) you begin to get the idea. You are making all the right hole punchs for your future and your child's future. This is not self absorption but and adult way of providing for yourself and your child. To do otherwise would be foolhardy. Self absorption would be smoking or drinking or other risk taking behavior that would compromise your health. NOT finishing your MBA because you didn't want to put in the time would be compromising your future and your family's ability to have a good life. NOT dealing with other people who are negative, who take up your precious time and are not uplifting (N's) is a wrong hole punch.
From my vantage point, I think you are doing a fantastic job of juggling all these stressful things. Give yourself a break and look in the mirror and tell yourself you are doing great, and are a successful person, because you know what, YOU ARE. Just my 2c. Patz
-
Screamer, good luck with the baby. Incidentally if your husband is sweet (like me :roll: ) he probably considers it a priviledge to give you extra help you when you need it. Its an honor to serve a really good wife
Mudpuppy,
Thank you for the well wishes. My husband is very sweet. He is very good to me and has even learned how to give me insulin shots. We take turns cooking and actually counts the carbos for me when he cooks so I know exactly how much insulin to take.
He is a wonderful man, he deserves the best. I just want to be the best wife I can for him. He is very special... as you must be also!
Screamer
-
Delete anything over a week old, but anything under a week stays. How about it? Would you do that if I asked....? See what you think, you could even apply conditions if you like.. P
You have to be joking!!! OK, to look at this rationally, the adult you wants the adult me to commit to leaving posts for a week.
However, the adult me deletes these posts when little me starts to feel too vulnerable to anger or rejection. So this is a safety thing. You want me to commit to feeling unsafe for a week? How do I then come back to read responses? :?
Probably not possible to promise, because when the feelings take over they are very strong. But I could try. Far too visible at present, for example. Will try to leave this post, but it may not last long. :oops:
-
:D thank you for replying! I thought I was taking a Big Risk in asking you, yep...I did... :? okay....I give something in return...ouch...wriggle...okay I'll continue to sign-in when I post, no more hiding myself. While you don't touch your posts, I'll sign-in - would that work? I have no idea. Bargain? I'm in the dark here. Different things I know - deleting vs. signing-in, but probably similar motivation..(no I don't want to talk about it, but I'm happy to do it). Okay, way too much disclosure here, I better go and let these posts cover themselves up...without being deleted! Fingers crossedx
-
Screamer,
Do not think that getting your MBA, dealing with your diabetes and trying to get pregnant are being self-absorbed. You are trying to improve yourself, get healthy for a lifetime, and do the most selfless thing possible--become a parent.
I struggled with trying to get pregnant too (21 years ago). It is very stressful and frustrating. You are blessed to have such a supportive husband. I was finally able to have a healthy pregnancy after one miscarriage. It was worth all the pain and aggrevation when my son was born. When I tried to have a second child, I had one miscarriage and never got pregnant again. My daughter is adopted and that was every bit as wonderful an experience as giving birth. I wish you good luck in achieving your dream of having a child, however he/she comes into your life.
We become so sensitized to self-interest/self-absorption when we live with people who truly are that way that we cannot see just healthy self-caring and self-love. Accept that it is OK to take care of you and those who love you will take care of you, too. What goes around, comes around and you will give back when you need to.
Brigid
-
Hi all,
mum wrote,
"projection" has always confused me, but if that's what I described, perhaps I get it now??
I always assumed just from my own experience that it meant they would project some behavior they were actually doing onto some poor sap who wasn't. Whether this is out of guilt or to cover their tracks I don't know, but it is very common for my N.
October,
Thank you so much for explaining how your phobia crept up on you. Maybe it will begin creeping away without you knowing it. Maybe it already has! :D
I really, really like reading your posts and have very much appreciated your comments, however if you aren't comfortable leaving them then delete away. I'm sure you know Portia was acting out of love.
Screamer wrote,
He is very special... as you must be also!
:oops: I promise I did not send her a PM asking her to write that. :oops:
God bless all
mudpup
-
Screamer wrote,
He is very special... as you must be also!
:oops: I promise I did not send her a PM asking her to write that. :oops:
mudpup
I wrote it of my own volition and I stand by it! :wink:
Screamer
-
OK, I am clueless again. Portia/October, you mean you can go back and delete any of your own posts? Must one be signed in to do that? I totally get why October would want to do that! But if I just don't look at mine if I think they are stupid, they cease to exist. It's only words, October...it's not really you except for the moment. NOW is all we have and posts only exist while we write them, while we read them..........they do have a strange life, don't they?
-
OK, I am clueless again. Portia/October, you mean you can go back and delete any of your own posts? Must one be signed in to do that? I totally get why October would want to do that! But if I just don't look at mine if I think they are stupid, they cease to exist. It's only words, October...it's not really you except for the moment. NOW is all we have and posts only exist while we write them, while we read them..........they do have a strange life, don't they?
Remember the Native American and Arab belief about photographs? That they capture your soul?
If you write very personal things down, then you leave yourself exposed. Sometimes that is not a good thing to do.
I love Patz punch card image. That is very useful - good or bad is just another hole in the card. What does the odd mistake matter, when the majority are going to be on the right side.
Also, I am aware that in my musings I have not validated Screamer at all. Sorry. :oops: Sin of omission. I also think you are doing a wonderful job of coping. I too was taught that to think of myself and look after myself was to be selfish, but that is a lie. It is an act of generousity to those around us. :D
What is truly selfish is for Nparents to teach children that their feelings are not valid, and their needs are not important. What our parents meant is that our feelings are not valid to them, and not important to them, but their own feelings and needs certainly got centre stage, all the time.
-
Maybe it will begin creeping away without you knowing it. Maybe it already has! :D
I really, really like reading your posts and have very much appreciated your comments, however if you aren't comfortable leaving them then delete away. I'm sure you know Portia was acting out of love.
Doncha just love optimists!!!! Yes, maybe the symptoms are lessening. But the important thing is to survive, and I am doing that very well. :D Well, maybe in my own special dysfunctional way, but hell, I am still here!!
Thanks for saying you like my posts. You are right; Portia always acts out of love; I think she would be hard pressed to do anything else. But as you no doubt realise from her post above, this is an issue that resonates with her, and therefore is not just my issue. So we can help one another. What I find hard to do for myself, I can do for her. I can not delete posts until the cows come home, if it helps Portia sign in and feel safer. :D
((((Portia))))
-
October, I just got the urge to beat myself up in response to your very kind words (like this: when I was sending out all that anger towards people here, whooo, that didn’t seem very loving) and hey, I’m not too loving towards certain attitudes either. But … yes, the underlying motivation is protection, exposure of a possible threat – it’s not to beat an ‘opposition’ for gratification as such, so I guess…you could be right :D This exchange makes me feel safer, safer about being honest and vulnerable, thank you ((October)) (and everyone else). Now I feel slushy. :oops: Intimacy alert! :roll: Gotta go! :arrow:
Keeping the sign-in pledge, P
-
Keeping the sign-in pledge, P
Well done for signing in, Portia. Give yourself a gold star!!!!! :)
I hope you feel safe enough to return soon. You are needed here. xxxxxxx
-
Screamer, us men have protective insticts that kick in during "pregnancy" too. We become highly motivated to love, take care of and protect 2 of the poeple we love the most in the world. Your husband can't be pregnant for you, but he can try to carry as much of the other stuff as possible. I think that if you tell him that you love him, are concerned about him, appreciate his help and are glad that he's your partner in this, it will greatly appreciated by him. Men like to feel useful and appreciated by their wives. :)
October and Portia, I am learning from your ingenious ability to bend the "rules." I usually see things as all or nothing. It never would have occurred to me to delete posts or not sign in as a way to limit my exposure to yucky feelings. I would have just sat around in a dark room by myself until I was willing to post and leave everything up, no matter how long it took me to get to that point. Wait... that IS what I did. :oops: I so like the idea of taking smaller steps and dealing with my reactions and getting used to it before taking the next step. Watching you to see how that's done.
-
Lontire: by "us men" you must be referring to those nice guys like you. My pregnancy experience was much different, unfortunately, but that was with an N!
Screamer: You are amazing. And I'm certain your sweet husband knows this. I know a couple (wonderful people )who just had their second child, and the mom is diabetic. She is a professional dancer, and very on top of things, a great mom. You will do fine.
-
Guest, you are abolutely right! Sometimes I get so used to the openness and caring of people here, that I forget to preface my remarks on men/women/people with "good," "decent", "open," "caring," etc. I'm sorry to hear you had a less than supportive "partner" during your pregnancy. Would you like to share your experience with us?
-
Hey, longtire, forgot to add that the last post was me, Mum. Sorry, no new story to tell. I did and continue to do all the parenting alone. Water under the bridge.
I do wish sometimes that I had a chance to have children with my (now and long ago, then) fiance. I had my chance with him and blew that one 24 years ago. But as he says now (about our respective children from different marriages) "we do have children together!" Isn't he great?
Ok, did any of that make sense? Try this: I am now engaged to a man that I was engaged to decades ago, but I was a self hating idiot then, so I left him, moved 3000 miles away and married an N jerk, an another N jerk and didn't speak to said nice guy for 21 or so years (although he appeared in my dreams with regularity).
But it's ok, neither one of us would trade our kids out for different ones!!! And we found each other again. So nice guys DO get the girl (eventually).
-
Mum,
How lovely for you two to have found each other again.
I'm so glad you gave a little explanation because I have to admit I was having a hard time following. :lol: :lol:
So there is hope for those of us who have been poisoned by 2 N husbands. I don't think I had any nice guys in my past that I would want to find again so I'll just have to look for a new one.
Brigid
-
thanks, Brigid...I do count my blessings each day. It's amazing but probably not surprising, because he was (and is) the "great love" of my life....no scary drama, no bad stuff, just the one person in this world who understands me more than myself, appreciates me more than myself and loves me more than myself....and so I am learning to do all those things. Funny, though, it happened when I WASN"T looking for it, but while I was just trying to make a better life for ME. These wonderful men do exist.
-
Oh, by the way, I also have a hard time following my thoughts (read: extremely right brain dominant) :lol: :lol:
-
Oh, by the way, I also have a hard time following my thoughts (read: extremely right brain dominant)
Now I understand our communication problems. I am totally left brain dominant so I try to follow things too logically. When posting in the future, please keep in mind us poor non-creative types who think in a very linear fashion. :lol: :lol:
-
October and Portia, I am learning from your ingenious ability to bend the "rules." I usually see things as all or nothing. It never would have occurred to me to delete posts or not sign in as a way to limit my exposure to yucky feelings. I would have just sat around in a dark room by myself until I was willing to post and leave everything up, no matter how long it took me to get to that point. Wait... that IS what I did. :oops: I so like the idea of taking smaller steps and dealing with my reactions and getting used to it before taking the next step. Watching you to see how that's done.
Glad to see I am helping to lead you astray!!!!!!! :lol:
Something I learned long ago from playing Monopoly with my brother. If you can't cheat it isn't worth playing - not half as much fun!!! (Bagsie I'm banker!!! :lol: )
Rather like being called ingenious, though. Makes a change from the Ns taking our good qualities and making them negatives, for people here to do the reverse. 8) xxxx
-
Longtire you’re just so incredibly dedicated to doing the right/good/correct/ thing. That’s not a criticism or praise. It’s an observation. Do I see it clearly?
And if so…..what do you think about that? Reply real quickly! No time to think about it! :D Just type in the little white box and press submit. Just theorising, as ever. I have trouble with spontaneity but I’ve found it can be good fun and quite liberating in a way. How about you? Hey I got the book about ‘getting the love you want’ from the library, noticed it talks about the Imago stuff which I have no idea about. Thought I’d check it out as you mentioned it, just for the heck of it. Hmm!
Makes a change from the Ns taking our good qualities and making them negatives, for people here to do the reverse
What a precise observation October, I like it, that’s the basis for one of those serious ‘thoughts’ for your book. Lots of humour interspersed with serious one-liners. It would be so good and you could do it! I could help – before someone nicks the idea! Shall I find a publisher? (jumps up and down excitedly) hey remember that Cosmopolitan article mentioning the board? We are not alone here…better take this subject off the board. :wink:
-
It would be so good and you could do it! I could help – before someone nicks the idea! Shall I find a publisher? (jumps up and down excitedly) :wink:
Well, writing is what I do ... or used to ... :?
Yes, find a publisher. Offer them 150,000 words, and we will try to cut down what we have to say. :lol: :lol: :lol:
I think we need an advance to allow us to write for 6 months in Geneva, in a small chalet overlooking the lake. What do you think?
-
Longtire you’re just so incredibly dedicated to doing the right/good/correct/ thing. That’s not a criticism or praise. It’s an observation. Do I see it clearly?
And if so…..what do you think about that? Reply real quickly! No time to think about it! :D Just type in the little white box and press submit. Just theorising, as ever. I have trouble with spontaneity but I’ve found it can be good fun and quite liberating in a way. How about you? Hey I got the book about ‘getting the love you want’ from the library, noticed it talks about the Imago stuff which I have no idea about. Thought I’d check it out as you mentioned it, just for the heck of it. Hmm!
Portia, yes I am very constrained by doing the "right" thing. I don't like it. It makes me worry about what the "right" thing is and whether I am capable of doing the "right" thing. No one else seems to care whether I do the "right" thing or not, just whether they like it. There, I wrote that without thinking about it and with no edits. Sorry if there are any typos.
I have had problems having fun. It helps to reintegrate the other parts of my inner family. The ones who were supposed to laugh, love and have fun ended up having to work overtime for many years preserving my life. I still have problems with spontenaity. Part of that is I'm so busy trying to figure and do what is right, I don't leave myself any free time to just be and be spontaneous. I'm working on cutting out more "right" stuff from my life and just being and feeling more.