Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: forwardbound on March 08, 2005, 07:40:04 PM
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I have been dating someone for four years, whom I've recognized to have problems with commitment, but after doing a little more research and coming across the this topic, I feel that he has many characteristics of a narcisisst. He is truly self consumed, unempathetic, uses people for his own benefit, extreme inflated sense of self-worth....relationships in his life are limited to few people, ....and on his terms. He certainly thinks he's important. But, how do you know if someone is truly a narcisisst.
I have left him probably 12 times over the past 4 yrs. each time feeling as though my self esteen and self worth is about zilch. I'm out of the relationship now and the problem I find now and each time before, is that my sense of self, what I want from a relationship and what a relationship should be is all distorted. The things I should know naturally about what I want and what a relationship should be, I need to constantly remind myself of. I know and have known, that what he does is all about him...and each time he returns is all about him. It's just very confusing...and very hurtful. I suppose this is typical of someone
Any advice about moving on and breaking this cycle I've been living for 4 yrs. would be helpful. I know it may seem simple....but even though I know it's wrong, i've lived it for this long, and don't want to keep living it over and over.
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Forwardbound: I love the name. In choosing that, I think you show faith in yourself. I know what you feel is hard, believe me.
My self worth was in the toilet with my ex and I remember, after one affair he had, actually saying to myself; "it must be real love if it hurts sooo much!" Maybe that sounds amusing, or totally sick, but can you relate?
My mind would say that was nuts but I was so confused and hating myself (didn't quite realize that at the time) that his power over me meant I was at least alive somehow....and his behavoir kept me at his mercy.
It's ok. You'll be ok. Recognizing you don't want that for your life is the first step. Believing you don't have to or that you deserve so much more, is the next. Don't worry about HOW you will accomplish getting your self image and power back. Believe that you will and the little steps in that direction will come to you just as you move toward this goal.
Posting here is a good step. Therapy is another good step. You get to love yourself, you know. It's truly the only way to ever love another....
Forgive yourself for starters. We all do things that are not self loving.. it's human. Love your humanity, your fragility. It's not despicable, or bad, it's quite beautiful. It should be cherished. There are people in the world who know how to cherish that. You don't need to go looking anywhere for that person...look inside. It's far more important in this world for us to love ourselves than any other thing.
It may sound selfish at first, but it is the farthest thing from that... and, I believe, the only way to be happy.
Bless you....sending you light. Keep posting. People here are very helpful, I have found.
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Welcome forwardbound,
I have no experience in romance with an N so I will let other, wiser souls like mum advise you. I will tell you there are many wise and loving people here, and you can receive tremendous help just letting it out for others who have been through it to hear you. I did and still do.
Anyway keep posting, please.
mudpup
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Welcome forward bound! I love your name too. I'm not sure I have any advice for you. I'm struggling with a similar situation, which I won't detail here. You are not alone!
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Try ‘Women who love too much’ by Robin Norwood, or any books that explain why women stay in bad (unsatisfactory) relationships, or go from one bad relationship to another, the repetition compulsion etc. Educating yourself with this sort of knowledge will probably change your life! I hope so.
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ForwardBound,
Welcome. You will find the sounding board you need as you work through this process.
Having been married to an N for 23 years and now finally getting out, I would advise cutting your losses and moving on. It is hard after 4 years to let go, but good for you to recognize the weaknesses of the relationship. Mum is right about learning to love yourself before allowing someone else into your life. I was vulnerable to my NH because I didn't love myself and didn't think I deserved someone who really loved and cared for me.
Good therapy is a Godsend to help you separate from the relationship.
Keep posting and asking for any help and guidance you may need.
Brigid
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But, how do you know if someone is truly a narcisisst.
Hi forwardbound- welcome.
I dated someone very similar sounding to you. My relationship lasted 5 years but I don't think so literally, as like you, we had constant separations. Things can't get too intimate for N's (narcissists) or those with N traits, and when they feel things are getting too close they create reasons/situations for breakups. Things like starting huge arguments over nothing that lead to them separating from you, or them provoking you with things they know hurt you, all the while acting like they are oblivious they are hurting you, so you will be the one to split up with them. That way they make it look like you are the one that wanted to end the relationship in the first place, and that they are a mere "victim" of your wishes.
Boy do they ever twist around everything.... I'd almost forgotten how much. No wonder it's hard to tell up from down when you get out of the relationship.
There is such thing as someone with N traits, and I believe that is exactly what my x boyfriend had. Not full blown maligant narcissism, but traits.
I determined the dif. by reading all I could on narcissism and reading & interacting on these N boards with a passion for many months just after we split up. That was a year & about 8 -9 months ago now.
About how to move on-- the only thing I can think to say, is to just do it. If I gave myself that advice at the time it would not have helped, so I don't know if you find it helpful either. But that is what finally worked for me & so many others. It is not easy at all when you still feel attracted in some form, but zero contact and taking things day by day is how a lot of people finally let go. Before you know it 1, 2, 3 months have passed (albeit painful months) but your perspective will very slowly begin to change. If you can keep up the absolute zero contact for say, a year, it will help you very much. You will gain a lot of strength and self insight.
I truly wish you the very best....
BT
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Hi Forwardbound and welcome:
I find now and each time before, is that my sense of self, what I want from a relationship and what a relationship should be is all distorted. The things I should know naturally about what I want and what a relationship should be, I need to constantly remind myself of.
I'm not sure you can convince yourself to want something that you think is what you should naturally want.
I'm not sure about that at all. Maybe it's possible?
Have you tried making a list of what you want from a relationship and seeing if it makes sence, once it's written on paper infront of you?
More importantly....I think you've hit something big.....your sence of self.
Once you untangle that.....the rest may fall nicely into place.
Best wishes to you from me. :D
GFN
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Thanks for all the replies and especially the encouragement. It is so greatly appreciated.
I have already done some of the things suggested, like making a list of what I want from a relationship. I've known for some time that he's not the person I want or need. The charming, attentive person he was in the beginning just doesn't exist. He lives his life day to day just catering to himself. It's so hard to imagine how someone could be that way.
I also like the advice that "you're allowed to love yourself". You kind of lose sight of that in the midst of all of this. I do like who I am, and I need to keep reminding myself of that. Being involved with some like I have, you just lose sight of yourself, and feel like there must be something wrong for him not to love me and be with me. Logically, you know that's not true, but emotions get mixed up.
Thanks again for your support!! :D
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Forwardbound:
Welcome to this board. It is hard when your in the midst of a relationship to sort things out. The light blub went off for me when I began to realize that all the effort to maintain my relationship with my SO was coming from me. My SO was an opportunist par excellance' and I was very naive. When they say "love is blind" I can really attest to that. GFN is right, make a list about what you want out of a realtionship and your life. The best thing to do, and it is hard, is to cut the relationship off and have no contact. You can have a different kind of life without the N.
Been there. Keep posting here as the advice and experiences we share are very helpful and affirming. Patz
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Quote:
I find now and each time before, is that my sense of self, what I want from a relationship and what a relationship should be is all distorted. The things I should know naturally about what I want and what a relationship should be, I need to constantly remind myself of.
What I meant by that in my previous post is.....that I think that when dealing with my partner, I tried to adjust to what I thought I needed to be in order to fit the relationship and keep it going. At one time, he put up such a good front, the reality of what's happening at the present just isn't what your'e basing the relationship on. My needs and wants that are natural to me ...I just put aside after dealing with him for so long. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well still....just my own perception, I feel, has been distorted. I perceived him to be someone so wonderful when in reality, based on what he was doing.....clearly isn't the case. At the same time, emotions still take charge. If he acted like such a jacka-- in the beginning, I wouldn't be where I am now.
I don't know if anyone can relate....I wasn't sure whether I relayed what I meant earlier....still not sure, it's difficult to explain.
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Hi Forwardbound,
After a failed marriage and failed relationship, I am now in a live-in relationship I believe to be worthwhile for the long term. I already have raised children to adulthood so have had a lot of opportunity to focus on having an "even" relationship.
However, I found it difficult in the past relationships - and even now - to recognise the signs of Narcissism, and even with non-narcissists, to assert my rights. If you can work on yourself during this period of post-relationship recovery, you can establish a strong persona with a clear sense of your own boundaries. During this time, as you meet people, observe whether they are truly considerate of you and others in their circle. Listen carefully to their speech. Are they constantly saying "I did this.. I did that." Are they always making the decisions? Do they take responsibility for what they have become, or are they forever blaming others for their circumstances? Do other people whom you trust want to be friends with them? Keep a notebook with a page for each person you meet, and make notes. This type of mental exercise will get you closer to discerning healthy/unhealthy people.
Also, when you meet someone, don't just go along with what they want to do. Ask casually for something you want to do (eg. go to a particular restaurant) and see if they try to get out of it. Find out the score early.
If you are not sure what is reasonable, observe others whom you admire, in action. How do they negotiate their needs?
I hope this helps.
S
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Welcome Forwardbound.
I think you are explaining yourself just fine.
You can break this cycle you are in....I'm sure of it. Believe me, if I was able to do it then anyone can.
One of the things that helped me *get back on my feet* during my divorce from N was therapy. Admittingly, I was not big on therapy but it turns out that if you find the right therapist, he/she can help you by jumpstarting your life without N.
You sound like a wonderful person who has a lot to offer someone who will actually appreciate all your beauty. Don't deny yourself of that any longer.
I'm assuming you don't have children with this man. Take that as a blessing. You can make a clean break and don't ever look back.
Keep posting and best wishes.
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Forwardbound,
that I think that when dealing with my partner, I tried to adjust to what I thought I needed to be in order to fit the relationship and keep it going.
BINGO!! I did this for 22 years. I always felt like I was trying to fit a square peg into a round hole to make our relationship work. And all the work came from me. When my N H left he said he was tired of living life the way everyone else wanted him to live and he would now live the way he wanted to. What CRAP! The reality was that he always did exactly what he wanted to and the rest of us adjusted.
As Mia said, be very grateful you do not have children with this man (at least I don't think you do) so you can have a clean break. I also agree that therapy is the best route and joining a divorce support group can be very helpful as well.
Good Luck and God Bless. :D
Brigid
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When my N H left he said he was tired of living life the way everyone else wanted him to live and he would now live the way he wanted to. What CRAP! The reality was that he always did exactly what he wanted to and the rest of us adjusted.
My X N pulled the same crap. Whatever it was that he was doing he would turn it around on me. He still does that to this day. Typical N behavior I suppose.
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Dear Forward bound and Everyone,
I too can identify with so much of what you say. Altho these exes of ours perceive themselves as doing so much 'work' in the relationship,the reality is that we were the ones who were running around, obsessed with making things comfortable for them, and (if you were like me) doing anything to avoid being subject to their disapproval or rejection.
Forwardbound, you wrote about how your perception was distorted, and again I think you've hit the nail right on the head.I can't believe how I thought that ANYTHING my ex did was just fine;it wasn't even a case of finding excuses for his behaviour...as in my eyes,nothing he did could be wrong, there was nothing to excuse.
I like Guest from Afar's suggestion of gently testing out new friends by seeing if they will agree to your choice of restaurant, for example.(Altho on the other hand,when I first met him I think my ex would have gone along with any suggestion I made. It was later when I started to stand up for myself,and my sanity, that I met with coldness and indifference from him;especially if my requests were inconvenient because he was wooing his new girlfriend,while telling me that he was not interested in her.)
Forward bound, you are making progress.It hurts I know;we have to remember that to get over it we have to go through it.
Stay strong,
Sincerely,
Lara.
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Okay, These N guys are all the same... really. Foreward bound: just get out. I was the ONLY person in my exN's life who ever called him on his behavoir. Others who tried were destroyed or shut out by him. He can't do that to me because I am the mother of his children (or "his belongings"). So he is hell bent on destroying me.
To which I say: "Go for it, Sparky!!" Someone on another thread described her N as a bratty kid who throws temper tantrums. That's it entirely.
And what do we do when our toddlers do that? We ignore ithe tantrum and it loses power, or as ( I think October may have said somewhere) let's out N them. I am currently trying this with my exN brat, and I don't know what it has done for him, but it sure as heck has me feeling better!!!
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So he is hell bent on destroying me.
Oh, I can so relate.
Mia
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What I meant by that in my previous post is.....that I think that when dealing with my partner, I tried to adjust to what I thought I needed to be in order to fit the relationship and keep it going. At one time, he put up such a good front, the reality of what's happening at the present just isn't what your'e basing the relationship on.
***I did this also. I've tried to be all I can be what my N wanted me to be. Lose weight, dress different, try new sexual escapades, don't be friends with this person, be here at this time, go there at this time, do this for me, cook this for me, help me study for school, help me type my papers till 3 am.....I was NOT living for ME. I lived for HIM dammit.
Now he's gone. And I have to clean up the emotional mess he left me in. Maybe if I was skinnier? Or sexier? I shouldn't have said this...or done that. Do you think he's sitting around wondering why things didn't work out. I bet he could care less. He's probably already planning what he's going to do to the next girl he meets.
He's already been talking about all the "Sex toys" he wants to purchase when he finds a "new partner". Makes me want to vomit, seriously.
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He's already been talking about all the "Sex toys" he wants to purchase when he finds a "new partner". Makes me want to vomit, seriously.
Oh, god, ick.
Forward, it's funny, in my late-night haze reading your post I thought "hey, she is with X (my ex-boyfriend)!" It was the strongest feeling (projection). They sure are all alike.
A year ago he visited me to go to an event he was going to anyway (of course). I will never forget the feeling when he left. It was if I could breathe again. Suddenly I got to have my own opinions, my own desires, my own quiet time (he just uses me up somehow with all of his neediness and how utterly confusing he is).
I think this is a great sign that you are in the presence of a narcissist, if deep-down, below the guilt and longing and attraction and whatever, you are really relieved not to have to deal with him. If you feel on firmer ground when he's not there.
I would recommend books, like Sandy Hotchkiss's book, to help you really be sure that your judgment is correct (it absolutely is).
As for the memories of the beginning, I can really relate to that. But remember that he was playing a role. They all do that. He did it with past girlfriends, and he will do it with future ones. It feels hurtful to realize this until you really take the blame and plop it squarely on his shoulders. It isn't hurtful that you got fooled by a faker-- it just means you were unlucky to come into contact with him. Anyone would react like you did.
The key is not to do it again. I can't say I was great at that, narcissist-hopper as I was, but joining this board will help! Another thing that would help would be to cop to the things you like about this bad relationship-- do you like the false excitement of it? The chance to win someone over who seems distant?
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Hello All:
It is very hard to do a reality check when you are in a N relationship. You have lived with the distorted thinking of an N for such a period of time that you ACUTALLY think that black is white. I realized after getting out of the relationship that I had a hard time with my judgements because I did not believe my OWN reality. The control is such with N's that you have no opportunity to think for yourself. Thinking for yourself is a perilous thing for you to do, emotionally and maybe physically.
It is only through constant testing of that validity that I was able to "undo" all the brainwashing. Patz
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Good morning everyone.
Patz, you must have read my mind! The thought going round my head this morning was the fear that I am actually just trying to convince myself that there was/is something wrong with my ex, so that my ego does not have to suffer the unvarnished truth that perhaps he was just an ordinary guy who preferred another woman to me? Is this crazy of me? I know that from what I post here, he does sound pretty weird, but all the same...
Connected to that thought perhaps,thank you Vunil for your observation about the sense of relief we feel when we are out of contact with these people. This is exactly what happened to me. Towards the end of my r/ship with the ex, I was admitted to hospital for a physical problem, and I could not speak to my ex for several days. After leaving hospital, I remember having a really clear mental picture of myself voluntarily stepping back into a cage as I reached for the phone to re-establish contact. I knew that by doing that my week of peace was about to be ended, and that my thoughts would be scrambled again.
Sincerely,
Lara.
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Laura:
I am going to mirror back what you told me: "that he perfers another woman than me" "that he perfers another woman than me"......."maybe that sounds weird", "maybe that sounds weird". Does it sound and look weird Laura? What if you "perferred another man" other than the N, would that be weird? What is your loyalty compared to his? Therein lies the truth of the matter and to ignore the answer will relegate you to a life of torment. You cannot contort yourself to this persons reality in order to stay. Are you really willing to continue to let this N strum your life like a cheap guitar? Continue to listen to this music and you will never hear the beautiful symphonies in life.
There are much worse things in life than being alone. Living with an N is one of them. Much love Patz
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It is very hard to do a reality check when you are in a N relationship. You have lived with the distorted thinking of an N for such a period of time that you ACUTALLY think that black is white. I realized after getting out of the relationship that I had a hard time with my judgements because I did not believe my OWN reality. The control is such with N's that you have no opportunity to think for yourself. Thinking for yourself is a perilous thing for you to do, emotionally and maybe physically.
Hi, Patz--
I really agree with you, and have definitely been there. I do think, though, that people who (1) didn't grow up in a household with N tendencies, and/or (2) don't have any needs that are met by this kind of disfunctional relationship, are able to just walk away, or never to get involved in the first place. That's what we're all aiming to get to, I guess!
Awhile ago on another thread I posted a story of watching an N exboyfriend at the gym (he didn't see me-- his back was to me). He was flirting with a woman and she was rolling her eyes, completely uninterested. I had always found him fascinating. It was really a great lesson for me to see that people see through him, and see through him early. It meant maybe someday I could.
(actually, later I met her and we had a laugh at the coincidence-- and she confirmed that she had found him a ridiculous egoist from the get-go).
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Dear Patz,
Thank you for your kind and speedy reply. I agree totally with you that I am better off living alone, and I'm thankful that I don't have to maintain any contact with my ex because of children.
I don't know if you're confusing me with another poster, but when you wrote about me 'contorting myself to another person's reality in order to stay' I was a bit confused because I have not been with this guy for a year.I broke off the r/ship a year ago and I have ignored his subsequent attempts to contact me.
My current problem is therefore, as you said in your previous post,how to 'undo the brainwashing' and accept what seems to be the truth about him. I am happy with my life at the moment,and feel free as I have said,but I need to come to terms with my memories of him.I am getting stronger and more detached, but still feel that I was damaged by the involvement I had with him.How do I learn to believe my new analysis of what was going on?
Sincerely,
Lara.
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Forward, how are you doing?
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vunil,
I'm doing pretty well and thanks for asking. I was just reading some of the newer posts here, and it amazes me how similarly we've all been affected by our N's.
Getting past the memories is a difficult thing to do, especially when you base your perception of the N's on the things you hoped they were and once pretended to be, not who they really are. It's been 2 mos. since we broke up again and more than a month since I've had contact with my N, and it's both a good feeling, and at the same time, the pull of him is still there. Just keeping my head about it and constantly reminding myself of what kind of person he really is, is what gets me by. I sit here and literally shake my head sometimes in disbelief of how I got here and why I've fought for so long to keep this person in my life. Honestly, this is not my idea of what a relationship should be, but always hoping to gain back what seemed to be there in the beginning, and winning his love, was always my motive I guess.
I hope it's done. I'm still hurt by this, but I'm no longer a complete wreck. My perception of him is slowly changing....not quick enough though...lol.