Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: vunil on March 08, 2005, 10:05:04 PM
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Ok, I'm having a crisis and need some help, please!
I work in a job with a lot of n energy floating around. In the past few months (or maybe longer than that, I'm not sure) a colleague has been working covertly and overtly to undermine me. She isn't my superior but has more political power than I do. Today in a meeting she had her big coup d'etat in which she basically took away any say I have in the committee. The others in the room are scared of her and/or think primarily of their own good and didn't back me up (all but one had promised that they would privately to me, without my asking).
Now I am wondering if this person is full-on evil. I have asked my subordinates (who are more affected by her) and they think that she may be. I feel really alone because no one will stand up for me (or with me). In the end she lies and manipulates and behaves in a way that is patently unfair and she gets away with it. And there is a clear targeting of moi.
So, what do I do? I can't quit. I am committed to this job and to living in this town. My instinct is to fight her but I can't imagine that I would ever win. So, do I back way down, disappear a bit, and hope she finds someone else to target? I know that communicating with her doesn't work because a memo I sent to the committee two weeks ago (or maybe three) outlining my goals/concerns/observations received no response from her. None. Isn't that odd?
Just for a little perspective, I headed this committee last year when she was on sabbatical, so it is not odd (I don't think!) for me to have my ideas about things. By all accounts (of everyone but her) things went really well last year. I think that she is feeling competitive and jealous.
Oh, another wrinkle to this is that she has the capacity to hurt me and to hurt those under me. I am pretty sure that she would do it, too. And there is no possibility of ratting her out to anyone. The environment is so broken that she is revered and I would never win that battle.
thanks for the help! I am just full of stress over this.
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It sounds bad. :cry: How important is this committee to you? Can you reprioritize it to the back burner? When I'm in a powerless situation I often let the more aggressive person have what they want. Then I vent to others about them and at least get private support. It sucks really bad when there is no recourse and a loose cannon gets to do whatever they want. But if I set it up so I don't care anymore, then in my view they have this annoying burden that I no longer want. And I hold onto the idea that those who liked the job I did still hold that opinion. I don't think people change their minds that easily. They are just cowards.
bunny
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Hi vunil,
Wow! What a spot. I'm self employed so I don't have much experience here, although your co-workers sound like my family. She sounds big time N.
If you start a fight with the idea that you can't imagine you would win it, you almost certainly won't.
Gee, I thought I had some advice but I guess I should think about it some more before I say something stupider than usual.
This may not be any great comfort, but you know it is only a job. If the worst happens you will keep going.
All I can think of is put it on simmer for a time. Try and relax and stay out of her way while you decide your best course of action.
By the way is this a private or public organization?
Wish I could give you some help. Surely someone here can do better than this pitiful post.
I know, maybe you could come work for me. :wink:
mudpup
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But if I set it up so I don't care anymore, then in my view they have this annoying burden that I no longer want.
I can try this. The problem is I feel pretty committed to the aims of this committee, and I have this hero complex (or just values, I guess) and I really believe in what I'm doing. I probably will go ahead and step back for a year or so since I'll be giving birth and will have more important things to think about.
But I keep thinking that if those of us who aren't driven by immoral aims (e.g., power, jealousy, favoritism) don't keep fighting then the place just falls apart.
Argh. I honestly don't know the answer. Maybe you're right that giving up on the situation for the time being will help. Something in me pulls against that. Probably something from childhood...
Mudpup, it's a public institution. Why do you ask? Do you expect public institutions to be better or worse? :)
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I know EXACTLY what you are talking about. I too used to work in a place where unspeakable evil existed. The covert sabatoging that went on throughout caused by 2 people was enough to make your head spin. Oh boy could I tell you stories. If you live in California, Washington or Oklahoma, you are in luck, there are laws protecting you. This is actually called work place bullying. If you don't live there, and are a member of one of the protected classes. Then I advise you to start keeping a journal of events, comments, witnesses and as detailed as possible, in case you need to file a discrimination lawsuit. Also check you company's harassment and hostile work place policy and file a greivence. Check out these links, the more you know about it the better you will be able to deal with it. I actually have a lawsuit against my former employer and would be glad to help you with what I am able to. I have alot of information on this topic and lived through hell to tell about it.
http://bullyinginstitute.org/
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/
http://www.effectivemeetings.com/teams/difficult/bully.asp
http://ceres.ca.gov/tcsf/pathways/chapter12.html
http://www.mytoxicboss.com/
http://hr.dop.wa.gov/helpacademy/resource/hostlckl.htm
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Hi Vunil, I'm Stormchild.
I'm new to this board but not to the situation you are describing. I work in the public sector too and it can be :shock: savage :shock:
I am sure that you're getting this treatment at work because you're good at what you do, and you've crossed paths with a bully. :evil: Here's a url that i found a couple years back. kept me from going totally bananas at the time. Guy in the UK, name of Tim Field, created this after he'd been trashed one time too many.
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/
Someone on this site (here, where we are) actually uses Tim's tag line in their signature... those who can, do; those who can't bully. I can't remember who it is, but I sure hope they read your post. Tim talks about NPD, lots and lots.
Bunny's right on target. If this is a bullying incident your best bet is probably to back off, let the bully "win" and go underground. Most people don't stand up for their colleagues in a bullying situation, not directly, but you may be able to find out some history on this person, find out where she gets her power (is she cuddly with her Director or Branch Chief) and that can tell you where to move to get out of range, if you have to. You might know all that already...
I'll stop here but not without a hug -- ((Vunil))
Stormchild
[on edit -- hey, fantastic, Shixie is the person I saw with Tim's tag line! and has already come in like the Marines!!!!! You've got help for both angles now: combatant or non-combatant, depending.]
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This is a very old article from Oprah magazine. I've been in the corporate world for 40 years and have run across the kind of person you have many, many times. The tips included in this article are excellent and well worth the read and application.
http://www.oprah.com/omagazine/200308/omag_200308_beck_d.jhtml
I suggest you do not hide away and wait for it to all blow over. I suggest you act as though nothing has happened out of place but set out to make the bully think you are in admiration and agree with her and are not a threat to her. There is always something about anyone that you can find that is nice or good or capable about them. You might compliment her on some suggestion she made, providing you agree with the suggestion.
I'm not suggesting you be phoney so do not go into the place that you 'need to be honest'. Find some small thing that you can honestly say to her that is a good thing as far as her work performance or simply the new hairstyle. Break the ice.
You need to take charge of your own career and not expect anyone to back you up. No on absolutely will. You are on your own. No one will help you. No one will go to bat for you. No one will fight your battles for you. You have to do it. You have to take responsibility and decide.
You have not told the whole story, for sure. I'm just going from what you have written here. However, I know that this is a very common problem that comes up in any and every organization. If you want to stick it out a year, then you are going to have to get going and take charge of your situation.
Lots of luck
DP
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Vunil,
Do a good job at what you do. You know how. Ignore the bully to the best of your ability. Keep doing the right thing and people will eventually gravitate toward you. Most people want to be part of an effective team so that they can be proud of their work. People who are competant appreciate the same in others. People who aren't, bully.
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The problem is I feel pretty committed to the aims of this committee, and I have this hero complex (or just values, I guess) and I really believe in what I'm doing. I probably will go ahead and step back for a year or so since I'll be giving birth and will have more important things to think about.
Then keep doing what you believe in to the best of your limitations. Usually things work out in the long run if you play your cards right.
Don't give up. But don't fight this woman on her terms. She's a past master and you'll lose. I agree with the poster who said to kiss up to her in some way to show her you aren't a threat. That is a great idea. I agree 100% with that strategy.
bunny
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Vunil: agggh, I hate this crap for you!. Seen it before, makes me sick.........however, and I think Bunny had a better way of saying it: just that you really can't lose a game your not playing OR nobody can hurt you if you don't give a damn.
Find a way to let it go, or put it in a box when you come home (pick it up in the morning if you wish), and in this way, maybe you can reduce the damage you do to yourself by obsessing and feeling bad about it. It helps me to remember: "Attachment equals suffering"....I swear I will have that tatooed on my hand so I can see it every time it slaps my forehead! What is it you are attached to that makes this painful for you? Taking the time to figure that out usually helps me to detach and let go.
If you can picture this big ego-woman going home to her empty or false life every day (didn't you say people are onto her, but afraid to say something? that must not make for a great, loving personal life....) maybe you can focus on your wonderful life (baby soon, lots of love, etc) and feel a little compassion for what must really be a mess of a woman. That's tough, I know, but most bitches I know are really quite lonely and pathetic, even the married ones. It's also possible that your happiness aggravates her....I know mine bugs my exN!
The idea of giving it time is a good one, too. Maybe not a lot, but enough to know you are not reacting from emotion and ego bruising. There was a great article by (my favorite teacher, yeah I know I mention her all the time) Pema Chodron in this month's Shambala Sun magazine about patience as an antidote for anger. It's really interesting stuff. Don't know if I can always do it, but always worth considering.
Hang in there....this too shall pass, and I do believe the trick is in not trying to change HER or the SYSTEM, but changing something you do have influence over: your own thoughts and feelings on the matter.
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The goals of this organization will still exist next year and the year after and the year after. Sometimes it's necessary to lose a battle or two to win the war. I would suggest that you patiently let things play out. Do your job, stay in the background some and let her have the "rope", eventually she will hang herself with it.
LM
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Wow, you guys, thanks! Lots of food for thought and reading. I'm going to go do some reading and thinking and I'll give an update. Maybe if I find a way out of this I can help other people in the same situation. And if I mess things up further I can provide information on what not to do!
I can't give lots of information about my job, but it definitely is a situation where covert action will be more successful than a lawsuit. I myself would like some power (because I have ideas I'd like to implement, and I am committed to this organization) so I need to play the game at a pretty high level, maybe higher than I have been. I had a lot more power while this woman was gone, and I liked it-- and boy am I realizing she did not, now that is back.
My problem is my desire to be real and open and honest and all of that, to avoid being like my very N parents who just lied (and lie) all of the time. Somewhere there must be a balance between being savvy and being ethical. Heaven knows most people at work gave that up long ago, ever-shifting sea of utter lies that it is. The truth value of what most people I deal with every day is always about 50-50, maybe worse. And there are underlings who suffer from this-- I feel like their protector (they feel that I am, too). That loyalty feels great for me but is causing all kinds of jealousy in this bully.
(Here's an irony-- the most ethical and trustworthy souls at my job are the women on the staff. More power means more N-- that's something to really ponder).
If anyone wants to, I'd love to hear more about how they personally stay a good (not N) person at work, where sometimes things just feel like one big pool of narcissistic supply.
This isn't the first bully I've encountered, and I have never handled it well. Time to learn, I guess...
off to read :)
thanks again,
Vunil
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Ok, one more question than I promise to go ponder:
What do you do when someone full-on lies to you at work? Just utterly says something untrue? And especially when they do it in a meeting?
Yesterday when it happened I sat there quietly, unable to know exactly what to do (and guessing calling her on it was a bad idea). At my workplace there is a lot of coming to someone's office and saying one thing then saying the utter opposite thing in a meeting or to someone else. It's a little like Survivor.
I know it bothers me more than it might some people because of my background. But those of you with the same background-- how to you handle it?
It's primarily two people who do it. I guess I could just hope they leave :)
thanks!
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Vunil, I wish I could be more helpful. I don't work in that kind of environment. I work in education, in an elementary school, where most people should have Saint in front of their names and most are women (sorry, guys, it just is). The few non team players we have were outed long ago, and are not taken seriously.
I would just get out....and find another venue to pursue my goals....so I guess that's not exactly helpful, huh?
good luck with this......you will have a totally different perspective on things when you have a child...maybe that will be "grounding" for you.
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Hi vunil,
Mudpup, it's a public institution. Why do you ask? Do you expect public institutions to be better or worse?
I guess I should have phrased it differently. The reason I asked was mainly about the size of the organization. Nearly all big oranizations, public or private are slow and ossified dealing with a situation like this. Also I was wondering whether there is a single boss who would cut a trouble maker like your's loose if you could document things. No covert political motives involved. :D
You don't seem willing to just curl up like a burnt feather so let me ask you a question. What are your and her supervisors like? If you can demonstrate she is affecting the organization,( or more importantly them) in a bad way would they still back her?
Somewhere there must be a balance between being savvy and being ethical.
I can help you with this. If you truly want to stand your ground it is not a matter of having to choose between ethics and effectiveness. I've said this before, but document everything! That means keeping a contemporaneous journal, not just making copies of memos or e-mails. If there is someone there you trust who is willing to keep one as well, have them do it.
If possible, make yourself indispensible to those who hold power over her.
Strengthen your alliances with what decent people there are.
Most importantly get inside her head so you can understand what she is doing and anticipate some of her behavior. Figure out what she most wants to avoid having revealed. No matter what kind of front they put up Ns are always terrified of the truth about them coming out.
Just consider this, if you stand up for yourself it won't be a short term proposition. And you have to be serious! You will regret going to the shootout at the OK corral with a rubber knife.
There are really two ways as you know. Hunker down and hope the bully finds another victim. Or hit her in the nose often enough until she finds an easier victim. However you have to be prepared to throw a lot of punches, because they don't give up easy. But there is no reason to lie or cheat, if you do choose to stand up to her. Not only is it wrong, it is counterproductive.
If you do choose to stand up to her I can give you some ideas on the mistakes I have made and the right things I've done with my brother.
Good reading.
mudpup
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Now I'm responding to my own posts. :oops:
I wrote,
If you do choose to stand up to her I can give you some ideas on the mistakes I have made and the right things I've done with my brother.
FYI, if I had encountered my brother in a situation like yours, I would not have pursued legal action or wasted my time fighting him at all. I would have avoided him; if that didn't work, I would have sought a transfer; if that didn't work, I would have looked for a better work place. He is grafted on to me, so I need surgery to remove him, this creep isn't stuck to you in the same way. Like mum says you have a baby on the way. A battle like this could turn into is no fun, its stressful and can become consuming. Your commitment to your job and your town are important, but your family is your life.
Whatever you decide, you have the home team rooting for you. :D
mudpup
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Hi ya Vunil:
I worked in a place once where a person of power (by position and by her weezling close ties to the person in charge of the "agency"--sleeping with him) acted with great arrogance, cruelty and caused frustrating grief for all those who were under her "direction".
I was one of those of lower position and don't ask me why but I instinctively smelled this rat out the moment I stepped in the door and somehow.....(without knowing about Nism or the tips included in the Oprah magazine post --that dp posted) managed to...and I hate to say this...take the dominant role???
She (I'll call her T) was bisexual and kept making passes at me (and being heterosexual and married---this should have made me feel extreme discomfort--but instead I detected it as some attempt to control me and I found it pathetic) so I secretly noted this to the rest of the staff, who worked there, and then ducked each smooth attempt she made to touch my leg, or pat my butt, feigning how busy I was, while I let out a joking comment, loud enough for others to hear. They would respond by "seeing" the behaviour and smiling, which sent "T" packing to where ever she "hid" most of the time.
She would always greet me loudly each morning and make some flattering remark to which I would respond by making a truthful, mild flattery of my own to her in response, which seemed to totally confuse her (probably because she was looking to embarass me....make me the centre of attention.....which she probably senced I didn't like.....and since that didn't happen) and the rest of the staff would just smile and.....again....off T went to hide).
She would literally attack people, infront of everyone, and when I saw this...I would intervene by getting her attention, by interupting and asking for whatever I could think of.....and she would then be lead off....sniffing my behind, at which point I might say:
"Oh.....nevermind......."I found it"...or "I forgot I have this to do first"...or some other pleasant but dismissive thing and walk away, leaving her looking like a lost pup.
I may have been manipulative but this is one case in which I thank my N experiences for teaching me, without my really understanding, how to distract a juvenile, twisted, N. Many people came to me, later, and thanked me for saving them!!! Like I was sooooo smart but I don't think I was. I think, I was just soooooooo t'd off with her ridiculous, unfair, cruel, conniving, controlling, dictator-like, sick, filthy behaviour....that I let that anger direct me in the only way I could, in a work situation.....by tricking her, constantly, into focussing on me......which I hated....but it seemed better than what she was doing to everyone else.
Maybe because of my childhood....I thought I could take her stuff....easier than some of those sweet people I worked with....or maybe, I was just at a point where I found someone I could "pay back" for some of the crap I had learned to detect( :oops: ).
Who cares? That woman treated me like her pet and left everyone else alone, a lot of the time. One day, she confided in me:
"Everyone here thinks I'm a b......ch". And I looked at her, smiled and said:
"But T, you are!" and I laughed an walked away.
She thought I was kidding! :D :D :D
GFN
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She thought I was kidding!
Or it seemed like she did, because she laughed too and behaved like I was her most prized pet, that day, more than any other!!
And I got satisfaction from saying it, being honest, and for everyone else who would have loved to have said it too. :evil:
GFN
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And thatttt........is how to misuse the quote thingy!!
:D :oops: :D
GFN
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GFN,
You're last few posts have me concerned. What exactly is in your coffee cup? :shock: :? :shock:
mud
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You're last few posts have me concerned. What exactly is in your coffee cup?
Ex-lax.
GFN
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What do you do when someone full-on lies to you at work? Just utterly says something untrue? And especially when they do it in a meeting?
It depends on the situation. Most likely I'd do nothing and let them hang themselves. I might contradict or question them but only if I thought the outcome would favor me.
Re: being an honest person at work. I choose the right people to be open/honest with. The rest of the people get my mask of diplomacy, confidence, tact, submission, or whatever mask I have to wear. It's naive to be too open and honest at the workplace.
bunny
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I just saw an interesting looking book on amazon.com:
Working With the Self-Absorbed: How to Handle Narcissistic Personalities on the Job by Nina W. Brown.
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Quote:
You're last few posts have me concerned. What exactly is in your coffee cup?
Ex-lax.
Sorry I asked.
mudpup
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Hi Vunil,
I haven't read this whole thread but I just have to say: When I read your post I could swear you were describing my previous job!!! The bully has been able to get rid of all the folks who don't go along with her (there were 3 of us). She is actually very competent, which of course makes it harder. I tried to go along with her, compliment her, etc., like one of the posters said, but I just couldn't stomach it. Sorry I don't have any suggestions because I never figured out a way to deal with it other than leaving, but I FEEL FOR YOU!!!
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Sorry I asked.
mudpup
Thankyou for you concern anyway Mudpuppy. I really do appreciate it. I just don't know what to say. I think Vunil's situation caused something that was bound up to come out. :shock:
I hope it wasn't too inappropriate. :oops: If so, I am very sorry.
GFN
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Hi GFN,
I hope it wasn't too inappropriate. If so, I am very sorry
.
I must be losing my touch, first on another thread you think I believe Brigid is brutalizing me, now you think you have offended me. :lol: My wife is very down to earth. It would take a lot more than that to make me blush.
Actually I'm sorry I posted that thing about your coffee cup. I had somehow missed your post right above that about your workplace experience. After rereading that page I thought maybe you thought I was referring to that post when I said that about your coffee. If that last sentence confuses you as much as it does me then you have no idea what I am talking about. :?
Anyway, thank you for your insights. How did that situation where you worked ever resolve itself?
mudpuppy
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Hi again Mudpuppy:
...first on another thread you think I believe Brigid is brutalizing me,
Never thought that for a second but wondered if you might. Shoulda just asked eh? :oops:
...now you think you have offended me.
Wasn't in my head either. I just thought that devulging my behaviour in that situation might be inappropriate because of the Nishness of it ...and to be honest.....I do feel guilt about it because T really got a dose of her own from me, which was not my place, and it was not kind of me to "lead" her on like that. :oops:
It was me acting out of anger that kept her from hurting others but what I did was equally underhanded. That woman thought I liked her!! And many of the staff thought I was some brave person!! When the truth is....I was weak and acted rather Nish out of anger. :oops: :oops:
I had somehow missed your post right above that about your workplace experience. After rereading that page I thought maybe you thought I was referring to that post when I said that about your coffee.
I did think it was that post you were referring to and that's ok too because the ex-lax stuff needed to come out too, so don't fret. I do feel better having confessed, so thanks.
Anyway, thank you for your insights. How did that situation where you worked ever resolve itself?
I had absolutely no need for that job and so I could risk saying or doing whatever I felt like, without worrying about her power to have me removed. It's so ridiculous that she actually seemed obsessed about "winning" me and everyone there got a big laugh (and much relief) when she "moved" to a new agency. They said that I: "Finally broke her heart by not sleeping with her and so she couldn't take it and had leave". :shock: :shock:
I don't think that's what happened. I think she just got tired of that lot of prey and went on to a new batch, for the fun of it! :twisted:
Who knows???
GFN
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Thanks GFN,
I take it you aren't recommending your tactics for vunil.
mud
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I take it you aren't recommending your tactics for vunil.
Now that's a darn good question.
On the one hand, I feel guilt for acting in anger and Nish.
On the other hand, my behaviour helped make life easier for others.
The question is.....is my guilt worth the comfort my behaviour gave some of those workers???
I can get over it but what would have happened had I tried to run instead of "take her on", as many people said I was doing. People would have been abused more thoroughly and more frequently. Some might have had breakdowns (one person did!!!). I might have even been abused by her myself and then I would feel guilty for allowing that, maybe???
So, in the long run...I am not really suffering a whole lot because of what I did. Maybe.....I need to pay more attention to that! :shock:
I still feel angry when I think of T and the horrible things she did to people....made them cry at work, had people unfairly dimissed for nothing, totally defamed and belittled some, slept with anyone she could manipulate, bribe or scare into bed, etc, ...the hurt she caused....the torment she inflicted on people who were so desperate to keep a lousy job and she did it so well!!! :twisted:
That still brings up very angry feelings in me still and makes me think.......I might do what I did again!!! :(
It also makes me think......the guilt is not so bad because at least I do feel it. I just needed to express it.
So much depends on the necessity of keeping a job and taking risks.
Timing is everything. These people act like, as you said Mudpuppy:
God.
They are slithery slimey snakes.
GFN
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These people act like, as you said Mudpuppy:
God.
Wait a minute....that's not what I mean!! :oops:
Try that again......
These people act like they think they are God!!!
N's=God
That's what I think you pointed out somewhere in another thread, Mudpuppy.
GFN
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Wait a minute....that's not what I mean!!
I knew what you meant. We both seem to be tripping over the keyboard lately.
mud
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A small update--
Today there seems to have been some fallout from the meeting yesterday, and it's falling in my favor. Everyone involved with the situation, with the exception of one woman who would say that the moon is made of cream cheese if her leader the bully declared it, seems to have seen it the way I do. There weren't that many people there and they won't (can't) defend me publicly and the overall problem still exists because not everyone has seen such a bald display from her, but I feel heartened because
1. I know that I'm not alone, and
2. I know that when she does this again that others will "get" what is happening. Maybe not everyone, but enough folks. Sometimes I have trouble trusting that because I didn't get any acknowledgement in childhood-- things just got weird and stayed that way, with no one to confirm my suspicians.
In the meantime, I have a truly N person on the warpath against me, which hasn't changed. I'll go do that reading now to figure out how to protect myself....
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vunil,
Good news - I'm glad you were validated.
Keep the faith,
bunny
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vunil,
I've been in that position a number of times. I've actually allowed myself to be the "victim", well that's what they thought I was. These situations were where the person was incompetent and I believe went after me because of feeling threatened by my competency. I would just do my job and state my points in every situation but not push my points. I would say something once and that was it. I was honest and straight forward. I've watched at least a half dozen people hang themselves (not literally), it was never pleasant to watch this happen. They would usually attempt to smear me and intimidate me, but were not successful because I kept my head up and remained emotionally secure and did my job. I remember one man (I'm a woman) who sat there one day telling me how incompetent I was, how my work was of very low quality etc., etc. and that I just didn't know "how to play the game". Within a couple months he left the organization with his head down in disgrace. He actually handed in a resignation saying I had to go or he was going to go. His resignation was immediately accepted and I was informed by one of the people who was in the meeting where he handed in his resignation (there were 3 of our higher ups in the meeting) that they all could tell that he really thought that they wouldn't accept his resignation and instead that they would get rid of me.
LM
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GFN, loved the story.
LM
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GFN, loved the story.
LM
I don't like that story at all but I have not spoken of it and it does feel good to get it out. I guess it's something I just tucked away, once it was over, and tried to forget. But the rage I felt....typing some of that...I gotta tell ya....it was like a bad case of the flu coming up!!
I'm glad your situations worked out the way they did, LM. You definately had more insight and acted with integrity. Good for you!!
GFN
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GFN,
I didn't see anything in your situation where you didn't also act with integrity. I don't think you have anything to be ashamed about with what happened.
LM
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I didn't see anything in your situation where you didn't also act with integrity. I don't think you have anything to be ashamed about with what happened.
Me, either! It's not as if you could have had a very-honest chat with her about what you perceive her relationship with you to be. And you certainly couldn't have confronted her about her behavior. She would have banished you from the kingdom.
You never lied to her or anyone else. You did manipulate her, but you manipulated her in a way that led to more peace for everyone else (and that she didn't mind). And it wasn't really even manipulative beyond what we all do just to get along with each other (we all flirt and compliment, etc., even when we don't totally mean it, right?).
The good thing about meetings like I had, and the posts you all have generously made to help me is they push me realize what I need to keep remembering: some people are N. Those people are broken. They do not follow the same rules as everyone else. There is no sense getting hurt feelings by it or being surprised by it-- it just is. If you want to keep your job and thrive, you have to deal with it.
That last one will take me forever to get to. But just knowing it's a goal helps a lot. And knowing tricks to deal with it is priceless.
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Wow! LM, Vunil!
I never thought about it like that. Thankyou. I will have to read your posts a few more times to get the words to sink in...because to be honest...I've really always thought of myself as acting......
hypocritical, false, sneaky, dishonest, unkind etc in that situation. The only two things I've given myself credit for is that the compliments I made to T were true. I know I tried really hard to look for the good and compliment that...in her and I really meant it (but I did so to get her to focus on me...rather than for her benefit, or because I cared, or any kind reason--which to me was not nice).
And....that I did what I did to make life a little easier for some who just seemed ready to break...from her constant harassment and abuse...and that was a good thing to do. It certainly didn't hurt anyone...it helped.
But now....I see...that you are right.....T did enjoy my behaviour and didn't mind......as a matter of fact....I became her favorite supply! I never thought of that before and that makes me feel a little better. Also that I did so voluntarily, which means I can't cry abuse! And she did feeeeeeeed offf of trying to "land" me and all the good qualities I pointed out in her (and she did have qualities).
Thankyou so much. I'm glad I spoke of it. I think it was in there bugging me and to be honest....embarassing me. And it felt doubly bad to have been rewarded with praise by others for behaviour I consider....like that of an N.
I know we are all capable of acting Nish......given the right circumstances. I really believe that but maybe it's not such a bad thing sometimes. And as you say, Vunil:
...some people are N. Those people are broken. They do not follow the same rules as everyone else. There is no sense getting hurt feelings by it or being surprised by it-- it just is. If you want to keep your job and thrive, you have to deal with it.
I guess in that case....my anger saved me because the chances are high... that she would have done her best to "land" me anyway. She did that with everyone and I might have just left there. UrGGGG!!!
GFN
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GFN, I will add my vote that you did nothing wrong. I am Machiavellian on the job and have no qualms about it. I would be wearing a sign saying "Kick me" if I didn't do it. At work I believe in playing the game as necessary. That doesn't mean I walk all over people or destroy them. This is all for self-protection. I'm not going to be a victim at work, period. I'm too old for that and don't have the time or energy.
LM, Your story was so great. I LOVE that he actually submitted his resignation with an ultimatum, and it was accepted!! It doesn't get any better than that.
bunny
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GFN: I too will join the long line of people telling you that they think you did the right thing! You didn't do it to hurt anyone, but instead you saved a lot of people from getting hurt! Bravo! :P :P :P (And some applause as well!)
Vunil: I wish I could offer any helpful tips, but I'm not that clever when it comes to these things. On the other hand, in my experience there are to kinds of bullies, one that responds favourably to your "sucking up" to them, and one that sees this as a sign of weakness and so attacks you even harder. Hard to tell which one yours is... Good luck and hope you find a way of dealing (or not) with it that feels comfortable to you. Remember, there is no right or wrong way!
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GFN, add my vote too. You did her no harm. You protected both yourself and those around you. Maybe you felt 'icky' for doing what you did because you knew she was misinterpreting your actions and that feels like dishonesty. But it's not! It's survival in the face of someone you cannot reason with. You cannot be honest with someone who doesn't have a clue what honesty is.
I hope if there's any residue of her bad behaviour sticking to you that you'll swipe it off now. It doesn't belong on you. You did good.
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I have worked with assorted people of that kind in my work environment (a large Australian university) for over thirty years. I am kind of used to such types. I can sense one of them quite quickly now and try to avoid them as much as possible. I just laugh to myself when they begin their idiocy. :lol: I speak up calmly and clearly about what I believe, then if the idiot wins the discussion point at some meeting, well, who cares? I got to make my point, and no matter what the final decision is, I have been heard and I have maintained my honesty and dignity.
I try to leave committees and groups where narcissists are in positions of authority, as quickly and smoothly as possible. In one case, I forced myself to make the big move out of the university as "the idiot" was my boss and a real Machiavellian type. I hear now, from the safety of my new university, that he has risen from the Ashes, like Phoenix, and is terrorising everyone in a new coup. I am so glad I got out of there when I had the chance! :wink: So you might want to rethink your dedication to this one particular company. Do you own it? If not, why do you have to be loyal to it and stay there? I know a move is disruptive, but it might be the best choice.
I wish you well,
S
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Bunny:
GFN, I will add my vote that you did nothing wrong.
Thankyou so much for saying this. It really means a lot to me and I really appreciate it. I'm doing my best to believe it.
I'm not going to be a victim at work, period. I'm too old for that and don't have the time or energy.
I don't blame you one bit. I can't see you sleeking around in the sidelines either, trying to avoid the inevitable. :shock: No way!! ( And I bet you still look young and good looking because of it!!! :wink: Age is just a number anyway).
Sleepyhead: Thankyou, I'm not sure about the applause part but I thankyou sincerely anyway! :D You are very kind to say all that!
Portia: Thankyou too so much too.
Maybe you felt 'icky' for doing what you did because you knew she was misinterpreting your actions and that feels like dishonesty. But it's not!
That's something to think about. Thanks!
It doesn't belong on you.
You know.....you are so right!!! I never thought of that either!! I'm going to make my mind up to de-slime my brain as much as consciously possible regarding that experience and truly let go of the crap I thought I owned. Why do I do that? Own so much? Thankyou again!!!
And I'm sooo glad to see you're out of hiding and posting again!!! :D
Guest from afar: I think your advice about leaving, if possible, is really good, for some people. I have worked with a number of these Nish sorts and ended up dealing with them out of necessity.
I'm glad you were able to escape that terrorist!! :D
GFN
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That was nice of you to comment, GFN. :) I read of your earlier situation and I fully understand and condone your actions. One has to be active at work in some circumstances, for self-protection. Eg Today we had a seminar in which a narcissist presenter went round the room asking nosy personal questions (eg how we got along with our spouses :roll: ). When he asked me this question, I found myself responding, "Let's not go there" and there was an audible murmur that I stood up for myself. He looked a bit insulted - but at least he backed off! :wink:
I'm learning all the time. :wink:
S
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I am in awe of all of you.
GFN, your story was just wonderful to read. I can't add to what everyone else has already told you except to say yes yes yes to all of it, and also ---do you know how much it means to see someone handling one of these creatures with poise and detachment and class--?!! It gives us a model, and hope.
Bunny I wish to heaven I could adapt as you do. I can't keep it in place though, in terms of how I'm supposed to respond to this one vs. that one, so I just pull back. How do you find the ability to go sit inside yourself, keep doing what you know you need to do, and remember the right lines for each creep you have to deal with? I wish I could.
Vunil, I am really glad that you got validation (someone else's words but perfect, so I'm plagiarizing them!). You deserve good things...
Stormchild