Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lara on March 12, 2005, 10:24:43 AM
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Dear Everyone,
As I go through the healing process, so many things come up that I would like to tell my ex. As I have no intention of contacting him though, do you mind if I share them with you instead?
TO MY EX:
1. You probably think that I'm an absolute sucker,for accepting your treatment of me, being there to listen to your problems even after you found somebody else, and supporting you materially. I would like you to know that actually I'm a very intelligent and well-respected person, and that altho you didn't see any evidence of it, I do have a mind of my own.
2. I have never had a chance to tell you that now I know you are a liar. I wish I had questioned what you told me about your past, and what you told me about your present. For some reason I never once asked you for any details.
3. I wish I had not confided my deepest secrets to you. I told you personal things about people in my life who were very special to me;and I shared things that nobody else knows about me. I would like to tell you now that you were not a person worthy of receiving these confidences. The reason I told you was that I believed you were my soulmate, and that I believed we would be there for each other, as friends or as lovers, for the rest of our lives.
4. I want to tell you that you enjoyed the best of me, without feeling any obligation to me in return. I know that you repeated the facts and ideas which you got from talking to me, and used them in conversation with other people, to impress them.
(And I noticed that when you very thoughtfully sent me photos recently of your new baby, you called her by the pet name which I used to call you!)
5. I want to tell you that I wish you would or could consider how it makes me feel when you occasionally leave messages for me on my phone. Consider how it makes me feel to get a message saying how you miss making love to me,a message which I didn't know at the time was sent when your girlfriend was pregnant with your (planned) baby.
6. I would like to shake you into some kind of reaction, by telling you that I have blocked your email,and will not pick up the phone if you ever call me again. I would like to MAKE you think why I am doing this, to MAKE you question your actions.
7. I want to tell you that altho I still miss the person I assumed you were, and altho you are always in the back of my mind, AND altho when I am in the city I am always subconsciously looking out for you ...I want to tell you that if I ever saw you coming along the street, I would walk fast in the other direction, or hide until you had gone past.I want you to think about why I would do that.
Dear friends on this board, thanks for listening. If anyone else has similar thoughts, and thinks it might help to post them,please do.
Sincerely,
Lara.
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Thank you Lara. I think your idea is healthy. You expressed your pain and your resolve to take care of yourself beautifully.
I think I will write such a thing (to my ex) and then BURN it and then do a happy dance! Lovely.
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Dear Lara,
Thank you for this post. I share many of the same feelings and the pain that goes with them.
I have never had a chance to tell you that now I know you are a liar. I wish I had questioned what you told me about your past, and what you told me about your present. For some reason I never once asked you for any details.
I have actually told him this, but his response was "didn't you ever lie about things?" No, I didn't as a matter of fact. They don't see their lying as the destructive thing it is. It is their protective device and they feel entitled to use it as such.
I want to tell you that altho I still miss the person I assumed you were, and altho you are always in the back of my mind, AND altho when I am in the city I am always subconsciously looking out for you ...I want to tell you that if I ever saw you coming along the street, I would walk fast in the other direction, or hide until you had gone past.I want you to think about why I would do that.
I quite often read the poem by Wendy Cope that I first read on this site:
I can't forgive you,
Even if I could,
You wouldn't pardon me for seeing through you
And yet I cannot cure myself of love
For what I thought you were before I knew you.
From the first time I read that I have felt it said exactly what has been in my heart from the day he left. The man I thought he was and the man he actually is are so opposite of each other, but I didn't see it until he smacked me upside the head with the truth. But now that I have seen the truth, the man just gets uglier and uglier.
Lara, thank you for your words. We'll all get through this together and be stronger and healthier women or men because of it.
:)
Brigid
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Lara,
You probably think that I'm an absolute sucker
This is the only thing I disagree with in your post. He envies you, he doesn't look down on you. Even the sickest psychopath knows he has something wrong with him. They know they're empty. And they know we aren't. Thats why they latch onto us; we have something they want, but it isn't transferrable.
I find some solace in knowing even though my N slanders and libels me, in his heart he really wishes he was more like me, not like himself. He once asked me during an argument, "you probably feel sorry for me don't you?" I said I did because he would end up a bitter old man who would die alone. Your's may not admit it to you, but they all envy the decent normal people they use.
Lara, I hope your post made you feel better. I thought about posting what I wish I had said to mine, but I didn't want to break longtire's record for longest post.
Hope you wash that man right out of your hair as the song goes, and may I suggest changing your phone number?
God bless.
mudpuppy
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Let me first say that I'm so glad I found this board. While I'm sorry that all of us have had to experience this, it helps to find others who have.
[quotI quite often read the poem by Wendy Cope that I first read on this site:
I can't forgive you,
Even if I could,
You wouldn't pardon me for seeing through you
And yet I cannot cure myself of love
For what I thought you were before I knew you. e]
These words are sad, (more for them possibly) but a perfect sentiment for what I, and obviously numer others feel.[/quote]
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Mudpuppy, You and my fiance both say the same thing (he is another strong, kind man):
He says my exN is in awe of me, he wants what I have that he never will: the ability to love. He says my ex knows deep down, that he is empty and hard, that his children can't stand him, and that he is essentially a shell of a human. I argue, that if that is true, there would be humility there. But, he says..........it's all so well covered by the N behavoir, that we think they know nothing about their flaws....and they certainly would never admit any of it.
But that brings me to a question: I though N's really DO NOT have the ability to even see anything they don't want to. As in, they simply cannot.
How does that work, then?
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mum,
I don't agree that they can't see themselves, they just hate what they see. Their whole life, I think, is an effort to cover up what they see. I believe we fundamentally misunderstand them if we think they are only trying to present a facade to the world. They know what they are and the main reason they are so desperately unhappy is because they cannot deceive themselves about their inhuman nature even if they think they've got others fooled.
They envy us, they hate themselves.
I believe even the most cold hearted psychopath, deep down is self loathing not conscienseless. They just direct all of their life energy to suppressing it (their emptiness) and fooling as many others as they can.
They don't go through all they do and present a facade because its fun. They think their survival as a person depends on it, because they think they would die psychically if the truth about what's inside came out.
That's what I see inside these people anyway. Any thoughts.
mudpuppy
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Mudpuppy: what you say does make sense.
My ex had a very nasty childhood: his father: a nasty N alcoholic, his mother: a scared to death enabler. My N friend had another horrible childhood, an emotionally abusive N mom and lots of twisted psych abuse that goes with it all.
It makes sense, that if they had such poisoned earth from which to grow, that they know they are less..... and hate those of us who are healthy, loving "flowers"........
Lara: not meaning to hijack your post. I just re-read your original. Very powerful....
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Hi everyone,
Its so good to know that I'm not alone. My husband and I broke up almost 3 months ago after I found out he was cheating on me and his girlfriend was pregnant. I thought that my heart would break into pieces and my insides felt as if they were being ripped apart from the inside out.
Now here's the strange part. When we were together I thought I was going crazy...feeling so tense, crying easily and before we broke up, I felt angry almost all the time, but didn't know why. I really thought I was loosing it. I felt guilty when I would say mean things to my husband. He could be so cold and uncaring...I wanted to get some sort of reaction from him...I wanted to know that he loved and cared for me. He could sleep on the couch a week at a time, greet the dog when he came home from work and in fact give more attention to the dog than me. I believe he did that on purpose to hurt and control me. At other times he spoke so tender to me that it brought tears to my eyes. I was on a constant teter totter emotionally. The highs were great in the beginning, but the lows happened most of the time as I could see him withdrawing more and more. I got so sick of him continually taking from me and never being a giver, I just couldn't pet that devil that drove him any longer.
Now, here is the craziest part. Since he is gone and has a restraining order against him because he asaulted me....I fantasize about being with him, I miss him, want to make love to him, even though in all of our years of marriage I never had an orgasm! I never had difficult before him. I read somewhere that deep inside a person knows that they cannot trust their partner and that is why one is unable to release with an orgasm.
Has anyone gone thru similar things as me?
bye for now,
Princess
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Dear All,
Having just read your replies above, I haven't had time to formulate my thoughts properly, but I'd like to ask something..very vague in my mind so far...
You said Mudpup that my ex probably doesn't see me as a sucker...that would be comforting. On the other hand, if he saw me as an enviable, strong,person,worthy of respect, how could he just cut me out of his life and move on? Wouldn't he have done something to ensure that I still had a role in his life?(And I was willing to stay in his life even 'just' as a friend;it was when I started trying to set boundaries that he felt unable to meet, that I felt I had to pull out to avoid being hurt anymore.)
I think that I would feel better now if I at least felt 'remembered' by him in a positive way. But isn't the stereotype of an N, that they use people and then move on? That is what I feel has happened to me,and it hurts that he has either forgotten me, except for when he calls on a whim to fulfil some momentary need in himself; or that as I said earlier, he thinks of me as a sucker or a pushover. And sorry to repeat myself, but if I meant more to him than that, how could he have let me walk away?
Take care everyone,
Lara.
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Lara,
In talking of NPD I don't think you are grasping the nature of it. Its not just a matter of using people and moving on.
Think of a drug addict. They don't care where they get it as long as they get it. Ns don't care where they get supply as long as they get N supply. That is where the using and moving on comes from. Once people realize they are being used they stop supplying and start challenging, which means its time for Mr. N to move on to the next victim, although they often torment former victims just to maintain the air of control, and in hopes of one more lapse on your part.
If you are weak and submissive you will get his approval. If you stand up for yourself, inside he respects and probably fears you, but outside its time to attack because you are denying him supply and threatening his facade.
And sorry to repeat myself, but if I meant more to him than that, how could he have let me walk away?
Lara, you are thinking way too much like a human being and not nearly enough like the emotional leeches these people are. This hurts, I know, but you didn't mean anything to him, except to dull the pain he has inside. Just because he envies you doesn't mean he won't get rid of you if you aren't servicing his all important needs. He doesn't think of you at all in the way you think he does. Nothing that is important to us is important to them.
There's nothing in there except a scared, deformed brat. Thank your lucky stars you're not the poor soul having his children. She will suffer for the rest of her life.
Give it a little time and you'll be fine, and please keep posting; there are a lot of people on here who can help you with your situation a lot better then me.
God bless,
mudpup
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Hi everyone,
My philosophy on it:
Narcissists come in different styles. Some of them have memories like steel traps; others have near-amnesia. The similarity is in the selfishness; they either remember or forget when convenient.
One hallmark of narcissism is envy. They are all intensely envious, especially of people who can feel "good" , "happy," "joyous," "benevolent," "content," etc. This envy is unconscious. Therefore they don't openly admit to feeling envious (except once in a while a glimmer of it slips out) because they aren't usually aware of it. And they don't act on the envy in a positive way (i.e., respecting or emulating the envied person). They act on it in a very negative way through retaliation, sadism, attempts to destroy the good things. This is how they operate for survival at a deep level. Anything else is [to them] submitting to utter humiliation and self-destruction. I think mudpup is aware of this in his brother.
Lara, your ex may have positive feelings for you. I sense that he does. On one level, he may think you were a sucker (a projection of his own fears about himself), but on another level he probably senses that you are "good" and that automatically makes him "bad" because he can't be as "good" as you are. Then he has to punish you, etc. it gets complicated. Bottom line, he is an extremely chaotic and confused person who mixes up his emotional states and self-states with those of others and has no clue who he is, or what he's doing. So any contact with him will also confuse you. You aren't sending that letter to him and it was great that you shared it here.
bunny
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bunny,
You're probably right that I made it more black and white than it is, and there are varying degrees of Nness, but I was only talking about the actual disorder NPD.
The only place I might differ is in the area of self awareness. I just see too much evidence in the admissions they make under pressure for them not to know what they are doing. And frankly I think the more screwed up they are the more self aware they are.
That's my theory anyway and I'm sticking to it. If I'm wrong then I guess they're even more pitiful than I thought. :roll:
mudpup
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mudpup,
I didn't mean to say you were making it more black and white than it is. That didn't cross my mind; actually I meant that you understand what is going on within a narcissist's internal workings.
I believe someone who is being very very nasty does have an idea that they are nasty. However this lasts about a millisecond and then they start blaming others for their nastiness. They can't sustain self-awareness for longer than a few seconds. Then massive anxiety sets in and they have to project the bad feelings into another person.
bunny
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bunny,
Gotcha. I misunderstood what you meant.
I did however make it too black and white. I should have made clear I was talking just about NPD and not someone with N tendencies.
mud
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Thank your lucky stars you're not the poor soul having his children. She will suffer for the rest of her life.
In this situation there never will be any resolution with a N. It's quite a bleak outlook. Depressing to think about....so I try not to dwell on it.
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I think all of the components can be displayed at different times by different N personalities. My T explains that deep inside they are so filled with shame that they build a very hard shell around that shame to protect it from ever being shown to others. I think subconsciously they are aware of it, but even they can't openly accept that it is there or they would have to face how dysfunctional and pitiful they are.
My T says that my H may actually have cared about me enough to finally realize that he could never be on the same intellectual or emotional plane with me and left to save me from him. I might have bought that if not for the fact that during the six weeks we were in therapy before he left he degraded and used me and truly enjoyed doing it. He took total advantage of my vulnerability at the time and the power over me was like a drug. Eventually, he couldn't play the game any more and wanted too much to be able to be with his girlfriend who undoubtedly was supplying his N fix better than I.
I do not know if all N's fit this profile, but mine was always searching for the next thing to make him happy. Getting married, having kids, building a business, starting new hobbies, building a house. The list goes on and on. Nothing ever lasted for long and most projects were abandoned mid-stream. I guess the same could be said for being a husband and father. Whatever the "project" was, once it stopped making him feel good, he gave it up.
I think that I would feel better now if I at least felt 'remembered' by him in a positive way.
Lara, I agree with you. We want to feel that they cared about us in some way for all those years. I think in my case I keep hoping I'll see a glimmer of the man I thought he was so I can somehow validate all the years I gave to him. I think I will just have to be content knowing that it was good for the kids for it to have lasted as long as it did.
Brigid
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I wrote,
Thank your lucky stars you're not the poor soul having his children. She will suffer for the rest of her life.
Mia wrote,
In this situation there never will be any resolution with a N. It's quite a bleak outlook. Depressing to think about....so I try not to dwell on it.
I was thinking of you and a few others when I wrote that. Sorry if I made you dwell on something you had put out of your mind for awhile.
Maybe you need to treat yourself to something today. Good idea?
mud
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Hey Brigid,
I think in my case I keep hoping I'll see a glimmer of the man I thought he was so I can somehow validate all the years I gave to him
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Maybe this is one of the things I don't get, but to me what validates the years you gave him is your very own word 'gave'.
Your loving and giving is valid on its own. Just because the object of your giving turned out to be a phony and undeserving doesn't cheapen what you were doing. When they use the good in us for their selfish aims the bad is all on them. We may have been too trusting or too unwilling to see them for what they are but those aren't evil motives.
The unlovable cannot give the loving validation. Giving, especially when you don't receive, is one of the most valid and selfless things there is, isn't it?
mudpup
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Mudpup, you are so nice to be concerned about Mia's remembering how "stuck" she is, having had kids with the jerk. You were right though. Lara is darn lucky!
Mia: lets take Mud's advice and go to a yoga class (RIGHT NOW!!!!)
(sorry, other thread).
Mud; perhaps I can speak for Mia (?) as well. It's ok for you to mention that....it makes us feel like you "get" our situation.
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Just a response to what Brigid said. I think they know they are empty inside, and that they ARE their shame. If you were empty inside and you met a wonderful, caring, loving, beautiful person wouldn't YOU be envious? Wouldn't YOU wish that you could be just like that?
Maybe the conflict goes something like this: I am empty and worthless inside. One day I come across someone wonderful, and I WANT TO BE LIKE THAT PERSON. But I can't, because I am full of SHAME. THIS is what I have to protect and hide. The non-damaged parts of me RESPOND to you (which leaves me feeling exposed, vulnerable and fake) but the damaged parts shout louder and longer. I am so used to accepting, internalising and living with the DAMAGE that ANYTHING that feels like HEALING sets up a conflict in me. I don't have the energy to address both you AND the damage. Eventually I will give in to the damage. Because the damage speaks louder and longer than anything good. When this happens I know that I have lost. I KNOW that I am never going to be as good as you, so I've got to leave. But let me disguise the anguish of my leaving as a cruel and callous victory over you, so that YOU will truly leave ME alone because I am truly unworthy of YOU.
Not wanting to trivialise anyone's feelings or situation, just my 2 cents worth. Any thoughts?
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2 cents,
You're right on the money. Ouch, another stink bomb. :roll:
Anyway, I think you nailed it. I visualize these people as having a constant internal civil war. One side is completely powerless(the decent side) but it is never completely defeated. It fights just enough to keep them miserable but never (or almost never) enough to win.
mudpuppy
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2 cents (any relation to 50?) and mud:
I really see what this all means...it all makes sense. It is just a really tough creek to cross, because getting away from my ex N, meant I needed to de-humanize him in a way. His frailty I could always see: "I know why he is so nasty...he's so full of pain, it's not his fault". My ablility to see his humanity was used against me all the time, and when I finally figured that out, the LAST thing I needed to do was see the true picture....a little lost boy who never got enough love as a child.
What I HAD to do was seperate, notice the big differences between us, a hard thing to do for someone (any N victim, I imagine) whose very global and loving approach to life made them a target in the first place.
I do think you are right. I can see where thinking that way can empower us as well. I just think sometimes there is so much damage (and some of us can never get away from them) from the N that seeing them as bad bad bad and not bothering tooo much to figure them out (they love to feel our focus) is a way to keep protected.
Did that make sense? It's not really an "opposite" point of view, though, is it?
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mum,
Its not opposite at all, just two sides of the same coin, I think.
At a certain level none of this matters. What motivates them or how self aware are they, I mean. For most of us it is simlpy a matter of getting as seperated and unentangled as possible for our own survival, then when we're relatively safe, if we have the luxury of trying to figure them out, fine.
mud
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2cents,
It sounds pretty close to what's going on inside of them. What you call the damage speaking louder and more powerfully is what I call massive anxiety.
mum,
Even if you have compassion for the damaged person and how screwed up they are, miserable, etc., it doesn't change the destructive situation. I agree that if there's "too much sympathy" for the person's hurt and pain, it could lead to further disaster. They won't respond to kindness; in fact they may retaliate. One has to be self-protective.
bunny
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This thread is helping me so much.
2 cents, when I read your scenario, I feel like I was reading my exN's mind. I do think that is what goes on in his mind. In a normal, healthy person, they emulate the positive characteristics in a friend, mate, or loved one, and they may draw from those strengths, and share and give back. But with a N, it's as though those strengths, the optimism, joy, ability to feel and care and love become glaring reminders of what they do not have. So they lash out, devalue and, well, you know the drill.
Mudpuppy said:
If you are weak and submissive you will get his approval. If you stand up for yourself, inside he respects and probably fears you, but outside its time to attack because you are denying him supply and threatening his facade.
Wow, I think you nailed this, too. I *do* think they respect us for standing up for ourselves, but they can't handle it. If we're only there to act as supply, of course they can't handle it, we're stepping out of our role and if we don't stay in the role to serve their purposes. WHAP.
When I look back on ALL THE TIMES my exN told me he was JEALOUS of me. Or envious of me, you would not believe it. He said it and I never understood it. He used to say it regarding how nice my parents were, and how I got unconditional love when I was growing up, I can see now he meant much much more. He even said it in the final days before I moved out. "I AM JEALOUS OF YOU." It made me feel so strange.
Thank you for this thread. I learn so much from all of you, and it is a great comfort to me.
Terry
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Dear 2 Cents,
I read your post a couple of hours ago and literally couldn't respond at the time because I was so overwhelmed by what you said.
I agree with Mum that our need to dehumanize these people who hurt and damaged us at such a high level, makes sympathy towards them very difficult. Maybe for me it is still too new and raw and I need to be further away in order to process his misery.
I KNOW what you say is true. In fact, I may print it out to remind myself periodically that there's a chance that in his own pathetic way he did care about me and knew that my only chance at happiness would be without him in my life.
Thank you for your perspective. I am impressed by your enlightenment. I would love to know your story.
Brigid
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Dear Lara,
I so appreciate this post. I can so relate, but my pain has significantly decreased since reading Help I'm in Love with a Narcissist. It has been so healing for me. Have you taken a look at it yet?
3. I wish I had not confided my deepest secrets to you. I told you personal things about people in my life who were very special to me;and I shared things that nobody else knows about me. I would like to tell you now that you were not a person worthy of receiving these confidences. The reason I told you was that I believed you were my soulmate, and that I believed we would be there for each other, as friends or as lovers, for the rest of our lives.
I too wish I had not revealed my deepest vulnerabilities because he went out of his way to NOT give me what I wanted and needed. I always thought that you are supposed to reveal what you want and need in an intimate relationship even though it is terribly risky. I took the risk and he just used it all against me. Such a betrayal!!!
I will read the rest of the thread and probably write some more in the morning. It is late. Take care dear Lara.
Chandra
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Personally I think "dehumanizing" someone can hinder ones own healing. I think it is possible to have sympathy for someone and still move on. Let me try a little story here, say you find yourself in the water with someone. Your intent is to enjoy the water with them. They appear to be intent on drowning themselves and drowning you with them. When one comes to this awareness I think it's appropriate to have the attitude of "Hey I would like to enjoy the water with you, but it just does not seem to be working, so sorry I'm going to have to move on now."
I came here because of problems with my parents, it is a difficult situation when it is your parents. It has to be very difficult when the situation is with someone you have children with. This very much complicates the situation and it's not possible while the children are minors to actually "leave" the other person totally.
LM
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Dear Everyone,
I've been reading all the posts with great interest, and now there are thoughts buzzing round my head. I need to put them into some kind of shape. I agree 100% that I am lucky not to have kids with my ex, and hence the lasting pain that that causes. On the other hand I think you will agree that when one is in the pain of the moment, it is difficult to take the longer view in that way. Pain is pain when it hits you.
I'm glad I put pen to paper (electronically!) yesterday. What I wrote came from very deep inside me;I cried as I typed it, so it was probably necessary for me to get it out. My ex can't give me any closure, so I need to find a way to fill in the gaps myself, in a way where I neither delude myself about what was going on in the relationship, nor beat myself up more than I already have.
Dear Chandra, thanks for the book recommendation.I 've been trying to get a copy here in England since you first posted about it, but no success so far. I prefer to buy books in person rather than using Amazon, but may have to do that if I can't get my hands on a copy soon.
Love to all the great posters here,
Lara.
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Mudpup said:
"The unlovable cannot give the loving validation. Giving, especially when you don't receive, is one of the most valid and selfless things there is..."
That is so true! Thanks, mudpup.
Lara, what you wrote to start this thread was incredible. Chandra picked this up too but it bears repeating
"I wish I had not confided my deepest secrets to you. I told you personal things about people in my life who were very special to me;and I shared things that nobody else knows about me. I would like to tell you now that you were not a person worthy of receiving these confidences."
It's so sad that all the time we're loving them and revealing ourselves, trying to get close to them, they're just looking for different ways to use and harm us. Whether or not they're conscious of it.
Stormchild
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Mud; perhaps I can speak for Mia (?) as well. It's ok for you to mention that....it makes us feel like you "get" our situation.
Mum
Thanks for including me.
Mudd
Thanks for understanding.
Mia
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Dear All,
Lots and lots to think about. What New Day says is true I think. They can't emulate the positive so they lash out. But this is the damage talking to them. Emulating is about reflecting and mirroring, and N's have distorted/distorting mirrors in place. And I'm positive your ex WAS jealous of you.
Brigid, I aslo believe that your ex understood all too well what was better than him, and in his own pathetic way knew that your only chance of happiness was without him. I don't think people, even N's are unaware of what they are doing or feeling, and when they devalue YOU they also know they are devaluing THEMSELVES. I think they devalue themselves for a reason - to get YOU to want to be rid of THEM.
If someone is damaging you, and you have the power/ opportunity (not always possible I know) walk away. Each person has to be responsible for his own actions and his own path to happiness. I just think that sometimes with N's they are so overwhelmed by their own powerlessness that they choose to walk away from themselves and from the things that just might make them happy. Their fear of loving, kind wonderful people is REAL and imo visceral. Love sends a powerful message to the damage: you, not the person, are what's wrong. But the N is used to listening to the damage, and believes that he IS the damage. Sometimes I think the N is actually addicted to the damage and NOT the supply. Again, just a few thoughts/observations. Would love to hear what you guys think?
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2 Cents,
I have to say that you really make me think about things that I haven't been able to face.
I think they devalue themselves for a reason - to get YOU to want to be rid of THEM.
As he started to unload all the secrets and lies--pornography and masturbation addiction, the affair, etc., I think he hoped I would throw open the door and push him out, saying never come back. I, however, did the opposite and opened my arms to hold him tighter while pleading with him to let me help him get through it. I think for that short period of time he opened himself up to expose the damage in order to get me to make the choice of ending the relationship rather than him having to do it. When that plan did not work, he had to go to Plan B which was to devalue me then walk away with the hopes that my anger and humiliation would keep me from ever wanting him back. (thank you 2 cents for that revelation)
He has covered up the damage since then and now denies that he has any addictions. He avoids seeing me or talking to me because I know the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth (at least as much as he was willing to share). I think that every time he sees me, the damage is looking back at him and that is not something he cares to face.
LM,
Personally I think "dehumanizing" someone can hinder ones own healing.
I don't disagree with this at all, but as part of the healing process, the pain that was caused must be put somewhere and dealt with in small bits. When you have loved, honored, trusted, and had children with someone who then turns around and destroys you (or attempts to), you must have a way to explain that to yourself. Initially, the only way for me was to make him into something evil--otherwise, how could he have done it. I had such a hard time coming to terms with what he was as opposed to what I had seen him as for 22 years. Rather than putting too much of the blame on myself for having those blinders on, I had to dehumanize him. I am starting to move away from that now and even though I still have a lot of anger, I am ready to start having some compassion.
Ok, that is my 2 cents worth for now as I am still processing.
Brigid
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Wow, 2 cents, you've really got me thinking. Before my ex left on his last long out of state trip, before we broke up, we knew our marriage wasn't doing too well, so we made a "deal". Whatever happened, we decided neither one of us would get involved with anyone else, as that would END THE MARRIAGE completely.
And what did he do? Exactly. Like telling a mischevious toddler NOT to touch something ....or else. Then he acted shocked that I wanted out, as in how could you leave me....don't I get another (9th ) chance?
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I think they devalue themselves for a reason - to get YOU to want to be rid of THEM.
Sounds like the "hot potato" deal. The N in this scenario cannot take responsibility for the damage and pain he's inflicted. He cannot imagine how to repair the damage either (esp since he won't take responsibility for any of it). If he sees a relationship heading for the rocks, he makes sure that the other person looks like the "bad guy" who dumps him - he tosses them the 'hot potato' of relationship wreckage. It's incredibly distorted but that's how he has to set it up.
Their fear of loving, kind wonderful people is REAL and imo visceral.
I agree!
Love sends a powerful message to the damage: you, not the person, are what's wrong. But the N is used to listening to the damage, and believes that he IS the damage. Sometimes I think the N is actually addicted to the damage and NOT the supply. Again, just a few thoughts/observations. Would love to hear what you guys think?
You're definitely onto something. The N cannot deal with what happened to them earlier. Their neural systems have been hardwired a certain way by now. They can't process the trauma and the defenses created by it, can't manage the fear, the loss, can't go there. So there's a lot of acting out. They are addicted to the defenses they use, to the acting out, child-like ideas of entitlement, etc. The supply is one of many things they're addicted to.
This is why a person in relationship with an N cannot fix the N with love, with caring, with intimacy. None of that is going to have a sustained or positive effect because the N's deepest layers of vulnerability will reject this stuff immediately as life-threatening. At one time, they offered vulnerability to caregivers and were traumatized. This is how their psyches decided to deal with it. And they didn't mature into better emotional defenses but froze at the child-like ones. Telling them about their emotional defenses, however, doesn't work at all. They can't be reached by intellect, by analyzing them, by giving them information. That only shames and retraumatizes them. There is only one way to reach some narcissists, which is to empathize with their whining and see it for what it is, their longing/yearning for someone to really understand them. It starts by gaining their trust by understanding what the whining is about. However this is draining and no one can put up with it except a good therapist.
I know there are people posting here who were also traumatized and did not end up utterly selfish, manipulative, deceptive, vindictive, entitled, etc. Children deal with trauma in different ways. The Ns neural systems developed this particular constellation of defenses.
bunny
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Sometimes I think the N is actually addicted to the damage and NOT the supply. Again, just a few thoughts/observations. Would love to hear what you guys think?
2cents, the way I understand it is that they are "addicted" to not seeing the damage, the damage that was done to them and the damage they do to others. I think they are also "addicted" to seeing the damage as not damage, and also to see "normal" caring as damage, that's why things seem so backwards and crazy with them.
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The above was me LM.
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Arghh! How do you qoute on this thing?!? Bunny, I think you're spot on about the hardwiring, and how the N's see positive things as "life-threatening". It makes them aware of things they don't want to face/feel, and talking to them about their responses retraumatises them. N's mistrust their own responses to things and seem to constantly battle to find the 'right" response instead of their OWN response becasue as you say when they offered vulnerability (re: real responses imo) to caregivers they were traumatised, trauma being the operative word here...
LM (again,WHY can't I quote?!?) also on the money:
" they are addicted to seeing the damage as not damage, and also to see 'normal' caring as damage..."
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2Cents,
Since someone was kind enough to teach me how to use the quote thingy, I will pass it along. Use your left mouse clicker to highlight what you want to quote. Use the right clicker to copy. Move the cursor to the point where you want to insert the quote and right click paste. Highlight what you have inserted and click quote from the menu above. Voila!
Bunny, LM and 2 cents,
All good information and analysis. I'm learning so much, but also having to get very real with my feelings.
Brigid
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Ta for the tip Brigid! Hope you're okay,
2cents
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.Maybe the conflict goes something like this: I am empty and worthless inside. One day I come across someone wonderful, and I WANT TO BE LIKE THAT PERSON. But I can't, because I am full of SHAME. THIS is what I have to protect and hide. The non-damaged parts of me RESPOND to you (which leaves me feeling exposed, vulnerable and fake) but the damaged parts shout louder and longer. I am so used to accepting, internalising and living with the DAMAGE that ANYTHING that feels like HEALING sets up a conflict in me. I don't have the energy to address both you AND the damage. Eventually I will give in to the damage. Because the damage speaks louder and longer than anything good
Ouch! I have just begun to realize this and it hurts like hell. Actually that is not true, I have known it for a long time when it comes to my exNbf and the woman I called my best friend for over a decade, and I can feel sympathy for them even if they were aware of what they were doing. However, I am in the process of taking the blinders off when it comes to my mother, and the only way I can feel sympathy for her is if she was/is completely unaware of what she was doing... But I suppose I have to go through this pain to be free, to not be hurt by her anymore.
Lara: great idea! You have to get rid of the poison that he injected you with so that it won't rot you from the inside, and dumping the poison here enables us all to use it as an antitoxin, like you use a snakes venom to make the antidote, so we become just that little bit more healthy. Thanks and good luck!
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2 cents, you said:
N's are unaware of what they are doing or feeling, and when they devalue YOU they also know they are devaluing THEMSELVES. I think they devalue themselves for a reason - to get YOU to want to be rid of THEM.
Many of us indicate that the N creates an intolerable environment to live in, and therefore, eventhough we are not the ones who want to end the relationship, we tend to be the one to ultimately "leave" b/c we are left with no choice. It seems rare that a N person will leave, and even if they are the one who leaves, it is after making life horrible, having someone lined up to go to right away, or blaming the other person for having to leave.
All of this is a devaluing process.
I so agree that when a person feels a lack of worth, they have to squish everyone around them as a survival mechanism, to make an attempt to feel like they have some, any ground to stand on.
In my case, I once found some "notes" my exN kept from therapy. He had made a list and on the list was "At my core I am valueless, and I must hide this from people" AND "That no one will like me when they get to know me better". Those are direct quotes. I was shocked when I first saw those notes (I was cleaning out some boxes of junk and found them, I wasn't snooping).
Amazing, huh?
At the beginning of when all hell broke loose, I hit the anger button like nobody's business. But after I calmed down, I went in to compassion mode, sometimes I think it was to protect myself b/c being *that* angry was so destructive and horrible. I actually felt sorry for him for a very long time. Now I don't feel any of that. I am taking care of me. Deep inside, my belief is that he has not changed (he married the OW), he just found new N-supply and if she gives him a feeling of worth, then so be it. I do not think he will ever change systemically. I do not see him as having any more joy in his life now than before. I do not see him as experiencing life any differently. He simply took out the checklist and picked up where he left off with me.
I appreciate what bunny said when she talked about "hard wiring" because that is an excellent way to put it. This is a systemic disorder. When my exN said "I've changed, I'm different now" ... what I took that to mean is that he is now living someone else's life (the woman he married), he now mirrors her, gets new supply from her, and feels some sense of worth from her. That is all it means. The hard wiring and the struggle remain the same.
And Lara -- loved your letter. I am impressed that you have the ability to write so much, so concisely, so well. I relate all to well to the feeling the exN does not deserve to know or hear our innermost feelings. So much trust goes into imparting those thoughts and feelings. They certainly do not deserve to be trusted. I wish you well on your healing path.
Thank you again. All of you are simply *the best* and you help me so much I could never thank you enough.
Love to you and have a beautiful day where ever you are,
New Day
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Dear Lara -
It's so weird that I just happened to stumble upon your letter. My relationship with my N just ended a few weeks ago (hopefully for the last time!) I have only recent learned of his disorder (been misdiagnosed for years as bi-polar) and the only thing that has kept me sane since then is reading and learning everything i can about it. You have no idea - well actually you do - what a feeling it was to discover that I am not losing my mind - and knowing I'm not alone has brought so much comfort to me (not that I enjoy other peoples misery - I leave that to the ex!) I still have a hard time comprehending that someone I love so much (or anyone for that matter) could be so evil.
Anyway, I was just sitting here, thinking of all the things that I want to say to him. I swear to God you read my mind!! You wrote exact thoughts down that I was thinking. I know that the frustratiing part is - we will never get to say it because they will only thrive on our pain, twist everything around that we said, somehow make it our fault and end up hurting us more in the end. And I found that talking about it to people that have never experienced this cannot possibly understand the pain. So to have a place to vent where someone can understand exactly the torment we have been put through somehow helps to make it a little better. Having discovered this place, I have a feeling I will be spending alot of time here.
Thank you for your letter - and if anyone has any great ideas on how to get your heart to accept what your head knows - I would really, really appreciate that!!
Thanks again - Robin
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Dear Robin,
Thank you! It makes such a difference to me as well to know that other people understand, however confused and changing the feelings are.
Can't write more at the moment, but just wanted to say 'Welcome!'
Sincerely,
Lara.
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Hey all,
I am in the process of taking the blinders off when it comes to my mother, and the only way I can feel sympathy for her is if she was/is completely unaware of what she was doing... But I suppose I have to go through this pain to be free, to not be hurt by her anymore.
Good for you sleepyhead. Takes courage, but in the end you will free YOURSELF.
New Day
I once found some "notes" my exN kept from therapy. He had made a list and on the list was "At my core I am valueless, and I must hide this from people" AND "That no one will like me when they get to know me better". Those are direct quotes. I was shocked when I first saw those notes (I was cleaning out some boxes of junk and found them, I wasn't snooping).
Amazing, huh?
Kinda hits the nail on the head no? " Iam valueless and I must hide this from people. " He's probably NOT experiencing any more joy in his life, because he can't until he stops feeling valueless. And he can't do THAT until he faces his issues, which (regardless of prevailing debates about whether NPD can be healed, ameliorated or whatnot and EACH case is different) he is certainly NOT doing by running off with another woman.
Keep taking care of you, and all the very very best,
(hope this post makes a bit sense, I'm a bit tired abd confusedy :? )
2cents
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Lara, great thread!
Princess, hi, this thread has a life of it’s own, you might want to start another one about you, coz I’d like to reply but it might get a bit messy here.
2cents said: Sometimes I think the N is actually addicted to the damage and NOT the supply.
Good idea. I think my mother is addicted to destructive emotions. I guess it makes her believe she feels emotion, makes her alive. I think she thinks love is the absence of hate, rather than the neutral indifference that the 'absence' is. Aha that’s so true! I didn’t realise it until I just wrote it! Thank you. She thinks indifference is love – amazing!
Sleepyhead: when it comes to my mother, and the only way I can feel sympathy for her is if she was/is completely unaware of what she was doing
Maybe you don’t have to feel sympathy for her? Does she feel sympathy for you and your childhood? Mother’s protect their children: not the other way around.
Robinm and if anyone has any great ideas on how to get your heart to accept what your head knows
Well you could expose yourself to him some more, but under scientific test conditions! Play the actor, ask them outrageous questions, make statements that are totally unlike you and take notice of how they respond. I don’t suggest you do this. It’s dangerous and requires you to be absolutely detached, a remote observer, just proving to yourself what you already know. You can shock your heart into accepting it, but you’ll cry a lot too - and you’ll expose yourself to their conniving. :? Not recommended.
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Robin,
if anyone has any great ideas on how to get your heart to accept what your head knows - I would really, really appreciate that!!
Since your breakup is so new, my first suggestion is just time. If you can manage it, some good therapy is helpful as well. It has been 17 months for me and I am finally beginning to see a sliver of light at the end of that long tunnel.
I feel like I have made some giant steps forward since finding this site as you get so many great perspectives. You also get unconditional support and love which we all need more of.
2 Cents,
Hope you're okay,
Thanks for caring. Yes, I'm OK. I had therapy yesterday and we spent a good part of the time talking about what you had said and my reaction to it. I have been resistant to moving off of my place of anger, bitterness, resentment, etc. But I also realize how much energy that takes away from healing and moving forward to finding a place of happiness, peace and contentment. Thank you for getting the ball rolling.
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Brigid,
I have been resistant to moving off of my place of anger, bitterness, resentment, etc. But I also realize how much energy that takes away from healing and moving forward to finding a place of happiness, peace and contentment. Thank you for getting the ball rolling.
For awhile that anger and bitterness feels pretty good, in a self indulgent way, doesn't it?
Glad to hear the ball is rolling, wise sister.
(You notice I didn't say older) :wink:
mudpup
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Mudpup,
Glad to hear the ball is rolling, wise sister.
(You notice I didn't say older)
Very wise of you to not say older. :lol: :lol:
Some of you men are trainable.
Thanks for the encouragement oh wise, thoughtful (You'll notice I didn't say bratty) younger brother. Yeah, some of us girls are trainable too if just given a point in the right direction. The anger has lived out its useful life expectancy and now must be replaced by something positive. You never know, it just might lead to dancing.
Love you little bro.
Brigid
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Portia: your idea that they have a different definition of love resonated with me. It comes down to a core value, a belief system. If those things are not the same, the relationship cannot work.
My ex's definition of "love" is so very skewed, it actual looks like "control". I spend much of my heart to heart talking time with my children trying to diffuse this definition they get from their dad. I grew up with such a different idea of what love is that I had NO clue there could be such horrible deviations in belief and I was blindsided.
I think you hit the nail on the head there. It is a totally different concept of love. It's so out of the norm that we then question our own value (how could something so wonderful be so horrible...maybe I'm wrong, oh yes, he tells me I am, my life up til him was a fairy tale, not true at all)......and then the cycle of abuse begins.
Here's to breaking free of that confusing mind prison!
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Hey Brigid,
Thank you sooooo much for showing me how to quote :) Of course now I can't do it cause my mouse is acting up... ( :x )
I'm so glad you're moving away from anger and resentment for yourself! I've been stuck there for a very long time for a myriad of reaons (haven't we all?!) and it's hard not to stay there, but worth the effort to leave that place once and for all.
I want to write more but I'm still tired and confusedy :?
Take care,
2cents
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2 Cents,
I want to write more but I'm still tired and confused
I have to say that this surprises me as you seem so organized and together. Please tell me it's taken you a long time to get to that point. You say you were angry for a long time, so I have to assume this has been going on for awhile.
I am already feeling "lighter" due to the shedding of anger having begun. Thank you for "showing up" at just the right time. You are amazing.
Portia
I think she thinks love is the absence of hate, rather than the neutral indifference that the 'absence' is. Aha that’s so true! I didn’t realise it until I just wrote it! Thank you. She thinks indifference is love – amazing!
Brilliant! I was always confused by the lack of emotion from someone who claimed to be so sensitive and emotive. All part of the facade, I guess.
Thank you to all of you for helping me to sort this out. This has been a corner-turning week. :) :)
Lara, thank you for starting this thread. Sorry if I did some hijacking.
Brigid
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dear Brigid,
Yesterday I just wasn't feeling so hot. I've suffered from depression for years, and though it's MUCH better now than in the bad old days I still have times when I'm "tired and confusedy" and yesterday was one of them.
Feeling much better today though :)
Not wanting to hijack Lara's thread , just wanted to explain what I meant properly,
Take care
2cents
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Hi Everyone,
Brigid and 2cents, I didn't think you had hijacked the thread, so please don't apologise...no need at all. And Brigid, I'm very happy for you that you feel you have had a breakthrough;you so deserve to feel a bit better after all you have been through.
Bludie,it was so good to see you posting again on another thread;I have been wondering how you were doing the last few weeks.
I had a very strange dream last night, a dream I've never had before, and I'm wondering if it came to me because of the title of this thread. In my dream my ex and his girlfriend (the people in the dream looked nothing like them, but I knew immediately who they were) were asking me for favours, wanting me to give them shelter in my house and provide for them. They were both being charming to me, but at the same time being more openly abusive and exploitative than my ex ever was in real life. In the dream,and this is the part that felt good, I was telling them very strongly that I would not help them;in fact I was sending them away, over and over again. My ex was trying to get round me by being loving and complimenting me, but I knew that really they were working together to use me. The feeling I had in the dream, of standing up to them and not agreeing to being taken advantage of, was new in this relationship.In real life, when I ended what was left of the friendship I had with my ex, it was all done in a very calm and civilised (on the surface anyway) manner. I have never in real life raised my voice to him, or challenged him much at all.
I have been looking forward to sharing that dream with you;thank you for listening.
I wish to God that I hadn't stayed with my ex so long, once things had turned from so 'happy' to so painful. Why didn't I have the courage and the determination to walk away? If I had done that, there would be so much less to get over now. It feels like now, I have to recover from the pain of the memories, AND the memories of the pain. Does that make sense?
With love to all the great posters here,
Sincerely,
Lara.
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Wow Lara. Awesome dream!
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Hi Lara,
I wish to God that I hadn't stayed with my ex so long, once things had turned from so 'happy' to so painful. Why didn't I have the courage and the determination to walk away? If I had done that, there would be so much less to get over now.
I got rid of my brother in 1990 and then went back into business with him in 1992. I spent the next ten years listening to his excuses about why he didn't perform or why he needed to take a trip overseas when it was time to work. Ten years. There are people here who were fooled twice as long, or just put up with intolerable behavor. You're a piker by our standards! :wink: :D
Don't beat yourself up over not wanting the awful truth to be true. Its a hard thing for a normal person to accept that there are people so alien to us.
You (we) did the best you could under the circumstances. Now its time to dig out and count our blessings. We are beginning the process of freeing our lives and minds from what amounts to psychological cancer.
God bless.
mudpuppy
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Lara,
I wish to God that I hadn't stayed with my ex so long, once things had turned from so 'happy' to so painful. Why didn't I have the courage and the determination to walk away? If I had done that, there would be so much less to get over now. It feels like now, I have to recover from the pain of the memories, AND the memories of the pain. Does that make sense?
Absolutely! Sometimes it takes courage to stay and sometimes it takes courage to leave. You can only, in retrospect, know that staying was not the healthiest decision. But had you left sooner, perhaps you would have forever wondered what would have happened if you'd stayed. Don't beat yourself up. Assume things happened the way they did for a reason and take time to learn the lessons so you don't repeat the mistakes.
I was interested in your dream story and had recently thought about starting a thread on dreams and how our ex N's come to us in them now. Thank you for sharing that.
Brigid
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Hi Everyone,
It was good to hear from you all,Brigid, Longtire and Mudpup.
I know that there is nothing to be gained in beating myself/ourselves up because I/we put up with unacceptable treatment for far too long. It's just that I was so twisted round this guy's little finger. Once the 'honeymoon phase ' was over, why didn't I look at his actions rather than his words? For your sake and mine, I don't want to rehash all the details, but just to give you an example:
We decided to remain friends after he met his new girlfriend. We continued to speak moreorless every day, but the sexual aspect of the r/ship was over. But even after moving in with her, he would tell me that he couldn't love her because he still loved me,wished he was making love to me when he was with her, etc.(Sorry about the gory details!)
Was I a complete idiot to feel hopeful and excited when he said those things, instead of looking at the reality of the situation, ie that he was living with her, sharing every aspect of his daily life with her, and planning a future with her? The answer that I can't escape from is that 'Yes Lara, You WERE a complete idiot!'
On another tangent, I really want to thank Portia for suggesting on another thread that when looking at another person's behaviour we ask ourselves the questions, 'Would I have said that? Would I have done that?' I wrote a list last night of things that my ex said and did to me during our five years, that I would never have done or said to anyone,let alone someone I loved deeply.. It was a really useful reality check for me and I'm posting here to recommend it to anyone else who wonders sometimes if they are making a big deal out of things.
Sincerely,
Lara.
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Lara,
The answer that I can't escape from is that 'Yes Lara, You WERE a complete idiot!'
Idiocy refers to our intelligence; but love is blind. Our emotions and our loyalty and our hopes overwhelm our common sense and intelligence. You're not an idiot. You were simply inundated with too much manipulation to overcome until it reached a critical mass. That's a very familiar story here.
Your virtues (and possibly some of your vices) were used to attach a string to the top of your head. For five years you were a yo yo. No offense intended, I was one for close to twenty years.
That string is hard to saw through. We don't even start for sometime because we don't even know we're going up and down. If we do mention the ups and downs, we're told its our fault.
When we do finally start to saw through the string is when 'around the world' and 'walking the dog' and especially 'rock the cradle' start. They pull out all the stops.
We get caught in a game at which we are complete amateurs and our opponents are hall of fame professionals. Thats why seperation is so effective. It gets us off of their artificial turf and back onto real grass where at least we can recover our senses.
Beating yourself up is part of the process of decompression. One of these days it will come to you that the idiot was him and him alone.
mudpup
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Lara,
Was I a complete idiot to feel hopeful and excited when he said those things, instead of looking at the reality of the situation, ie that he was living with her, sharing every aspect of his daily life with her, and planning a future with her?
I think the complete idiot will turn out to be the new girlfriend when she eventually wakes up and smells the coffee. I wonder how she would feel if she knew he was saying these things to you. He thrives on manipulation and you are clearly beginning to see that.
Don't ever think of yourself as the idiot. Think of yourself as the very lucky lady that you are that you got away in time before anything of permanance happened, i.e., marriage or children. Just keep moving away from him and never look back. Be proud of your growing strength and resolve to leave him in the dust.
Hang in there Lara, you are going to be fine. :P :P
Brigid
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Dear Brigid and Mudpup,
What would I do without the understanding of people like you! Thank you so much for your encouragement.
Until I had this experience with my ex, I never realised how another person could completely scramble one's mind, so skilfully that it's not possible at the time to realise who is doing the scrambling.
I will try to stop being hard on myself, and I do realise more and more all the time how he was playing me, but as for Mudpup's idea that one day I will look at my ex as the idiot...I'm not so sure about that. After all, he got exactly what he wanted from me, and then moved on to get what he wanted next from somebody else. Doesn't that make him sick but clever?!
Sincerest thanks again,
Lara.
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Hey Lara,
If he hasn't dealt with the problem he's not getting anything at all from anyone else. He's just getting a distorted image of what he thinks he needs. Probably not even that. More like a watered-down version of what he really wants, and therefor something closer to what he can handle. He can't handle the real thing, so he chooses a reflection of it. Don't beat yourself up: you are trying to handle your own side of things, and you need to do that to make sense of your life and your choices. Don't feel bad. You are making mature and responsible choices. Without judging, it's the thing that separates you from your ex. Be proud and happy that you can do that. From the sounds of things he can't do that, which is his loss. Good luck and much courage and strength to you,
(My) 2cents
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[quote
They act on it in a very negative way through retaliation, sadism, attempts to destroy the good things. This is how they operate for survival at a deep level.
bunny[/quote]
I just found this from bunny...This is SO true. I'm usually a pretty hyper, happy person. If I was having a day when I was bouncing around like a "Tigger" happy about something, he just couldn't deal with it. He would squash my "happies" as fast as he could. I think he loves people (family/friends) who are depressed, or going thru crap so he can play savior to them with his grand knowledge and deep insight. (Excuse me...BullSh**...I sneezed)
I remember him once looking at me and said something like, I"m in the mood to destroy something beautiful". I looked at him blankly and was like What? He looks at me and says..."YOU".
He sucks me like a vampire of my happiness, joy of life, innocence of how evil he can be, and uses it almost like a salve to his emotional wounds. But his gash in his heart is so deep, it will never be enough to fill.
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Andrea: wow, is that all present tense? I certainly hope not. I feel for you, though. The absolute evil of what he admitted to (destroying you) is not just a red flag, it's a red sky, walls, building.............
My sister told me that while I was with my ex he "crushed my spirit". And she was exactly right. The N's can't stand those of us who wear our happiness outwardly....whose presence brings light to others, that is why they are so very threatened by us!
I think often of how good and evil, or darkness and light work in this world, and I have only to look as far as my children's father to see it in action.
I hope you are well, and the man you talked of here is indeed in your past.
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Hi Robin
your ex's had told you that you would be happier without them.
It’s a way of them appearing to be caring while shifting any blame or responsibility from them to you. It’s YOUR need to be happier that is causing a break-up, not their behaviour. You take all the blame and guilt, they don’t want it….classic spin. :( Sorry.
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Robin,
but you guys were talking about how a few of your ex's had told you that you would be happier without them.
If you were referring to me as one of those people, I will clear up the misunderstanding. He never told me I would be happier without him. Quite the opposite. He told me he had a new relationship that made him happy and that's what he wanted to pursue. It was my therapist who said that his leaving MAY have been out of some distorted level of caring of me because he knew he could never be good enough for me. That perhaps the only way he could see to do that was to completely destroy my faith and trust in him by engaging in and admitting to behaviors that I couldn't live with.
There's more to it, but that's the gist of it. Through a great deal of therapy, I have learned how much happier I will be without him, but it definitely took me some time to get to that conclusion.
Brigid
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Andrea:
I'm usually a pretty hyper, happy person.
Godd to hear! :) But sorry to hear about the way he treated you... :( They are emotional vampires, they are threatened by your happiness b/c that is something they can never have. My xNbf used to always put me down when I was happy or excited about something. He had a truly remarkable talent for making me feel ridiculous and small. On the other hand he hated it when I was depressed and didn't hesitate telling me so :? . Very supportive. I guess they just hate us having feelings, b/c they don't? Anyway, from another thread I gathered that you are no longer with your N (you are dre, right?), and I hope that still is true. Hang in there, it will get better. Remember the old saying: The best revenge is living well.
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Remember the old saying: The best revenge is living well.
Heck, with most of the Ns I've known, living AT ALL was more than adequate revenge. You're breathing their air! :lol: :lol: :roll:
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After all, he got exactly what he wanted from me, and then moved on to get what he wanted next from somebody else. Doesn't that make him sick but clever?!
It makes him a parasite who sucks the life out of people. And look at what he wants in life: to use people. That is kind of stupid. You aren't an idiot, you were just naive. That isn't a crime. And you've learned from the experience, while he has learned nothing.
bunny
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Do you really think they had a moment of "caring" ? Or do you think it was nothing more than another manipulation trick to make you "think" that they might actually care. Because if you think they care, that makes it so much harder to let go. Which gives them greater control and a greater ability to hurt you. I only ask because I have heard the same thing, but I never really knew what to think of it. I know my initial reaction was to argue the point and try and convince him that I would be happiest with him. Which to me seemed like he was searching for attention and admiration - his "supply" so to speak.
Yes they can have moments of caring. But they can't sustain the caring for more than five minutes. Then they revert back to selfishness. In a relationship we need a lot more caring than they can ever give.
If someone says, "You'll be happier without me," take it very seriously. It's a warning. The initial impulse is to argue, "No I am very happy now, I wouldn't be happier without you." But ultimately the warning is accurate and you will find that you will, indeed, be happier without them.
bunny
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If someone says, "You'll be happier without me," take it very seriously. It's a warning. The initial impulse is to argue, "No I am very happy now, I wouldn't be happier without you." But ultimately the warning is accurate and you will find that you will, indeed, be happier without them.
They do telegraph their punches, don't they? When I look back on the non-family Ns I have been around, every one of them has come out with some kind of announcement like that. It's like a rattlesnake buzzing before it strikes!
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you guys were talking about how a few of your ex's had told you that you would be happier without them. Do you really think they had a moment of "caring" ? Or do you think it was nothing more than another manipulation trick to make you "think" that they might actually care.
This is my take on this type of comment. I think it is one of those comments thrown out to test the response. Its a test only. Kind of like a big juicy worm on a hook. They're fishing for a compliment and supply. The preferred response of course is "Oh no I will always be happier with you." That is supply and demonstrates his control.
A distant second is a sincere "You're probably right" That confirms his suspicions about your lack of loyalty and gives him a chance to throw a hissy fit. They always appreciate confirmation of the 'disloyalty' of others.
Last would be taking his advice and just leaving. At that point their control is gone and they are left with raging away to try and win you back or just harm you. I think that is their least favorite option. I'm sure they get some 'joy' out of it but not like having us under their thumbs.
They're so insecure and unsure of their supply everything is always a test to see if you're a loyal supplier or not.
That's what I've seen anyway.
mudpup
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At the end of your posts, you have a line from a song from the band "garbage" (Yes) Rip to shreds and let it go? I like that band a lot..what song is that from?
Thanks
Dre
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Hi Andrea, the line from Garbage is from the song "When I Grow Up", of the album "Version 2.0". (The song also includes the brilliant line that Portia quoted on another thread: "When I grow up I'll be stable", I'm still waiting for that :D ).