Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Guest1 on March 13, 2005, 07:30:59 AM
-
Any advice how to cope with a Nar brother in the workplace? I knew nothing about narcissism when starting this job which helped me reach a long term goal of certification in a certain area and working toward a more independent lifestyle. The brother brought me in under certain guidelines which he has routinely broken for a newer employee which is a buddy of his.
All last year I attempted to talk to Nbro about these discrepancies with no luck. He would rage away and deny they were happening. WHen the year end salaries were revelaed, new guy had received about twice as much work as I had. We are independent contractors. I vowed not to let this happen this year and devised my own system of geting more work and attempted to work this out with the new guy, who seems agreeable to it.
Every time I get a good paycheck the brother makes snide remarks and/or rages away. HE throw things, pounds file cabinets and routinely fires myself and the only other female in the office. Yes, it does appear to be a female thing. She has been here 12 years and has devised some coping mechansism which we both employ.
His rage extends into the family situation where he expects the women to be submissive and kow tow to his every need and demand. He has four girls that I adore and I am concerned at times for their self esteem also. I cant suck up to him all the time, but have been trying ways to stand up for myself and not be the butt of his rage.
Getting a different job right now is not an option. There are no openings in our field at this time and I will not sacrifice the hours of school and money and time towards education to get this certificaiton for his rages.
He really doesnt want to work that much at the office and doesnt. So if he fired me he would actually have to take some work himself. I am sure he does not want to do this, so I do have some power.
Just need new coping skills and how to not feel like it is my fault since I was raised that if the boys were angry or unhappy it was my fault. There is no family suport here as usual. They have been bending to his rages since childhood.
-
Welcome. Wow, your brother is classic!!! Can you find a therapist who can work with you on empowerment? On not taking on his stuff? On letting it go and focusing on yourself?
I am at a loss. I wish I could give you a magic bullet to fix this, but I struggle with an exN, who I am stuck with as well (we have kids together).
This man is a cartoon, just like your brother.
Many people here have similar situations. I have been helped by the support here, but my ex has yet to fall off the face of the earth, so the help is pretty limited :lol:
I hope someone else responds with something more concrete.. otherwise, welcome to the club!
-
Welcome Guest1,
You're doing everything right as long as you're stuck there. Going behind his back to get more work (check), developed coping mechanisms (check). The only other things I can think of are ignoring your brother's tantrums, not discussing anything with him - I would use sound-bites to talk to him - and getting into therapy so you have a place to vent and get personal support.
keep posting,
bunny
-
Mum and Bunny,
Thanks so much for your replies. It really helps. I think I am somewhat mad at myself for reacting at all to him, but I was weekened by an aching tooth and his accelerated craziness this week particularly dumping stuff on me Friday and not even telling me about the field trip in time for me to arrange my schedule adequately.
I have had what I considered a good therapist now for about 10 years. SHe has been very big on my giving up changing my family and instead changing myself, which makes sense. I think she hsa been a little at sea about how to handle the brother at times. She suggested talking to him all last year and believe me that got nowhere. I will see her soon and see if we can reinforce the other concepts.
Thanks so much for your encouragement that I am doing the right thing as far as getting work, coping mechanism, etc. Desensitizing around him sounds like part of the answer. I believe I have made strides in that area but I do cave at times.
It is complicated by my affection and concern for his four daughters. I am sure they hear him talk about me at home and it may be effecting the olders ones. I know there is nothing I can do about that but also am concerned he uses the same behavior on them and his wife. When I have seen him be hypercritical with the girls and wife, they usually just ignore him, but you have to wonder if the scars are going down anyway.
I have a ton of books on narcissm, diffiuclt people etc but sometimes I forget to put it all in practice. Reminders and help from here will really make a difference.
-
She suggested talking to him all last year and believe me that got nowhere
I think all of us have tried this-- how can you not? It just seems like such an obvious thing to do. I think it might be part of the healing process; you have to see their odd response to fully move into the next stage of acceptance.
Your question about his family is a really tough one. Any overt action would fail miserably, of course. As you well know N's love to see someone as an enemy and walking into that role would be unwise.
Maybe (?) if one of his girls reaches out to you for advice or in confusion you can offer your suggestions, without putting him down overtly. I know that I would have really benefitted from a non-N relative growing up-- unfortunately, both of my uncles are worse than my dad so it was just awful for me. Just being a paragon of good sense, empathy, and love, may draw them to you or at least give them the chance to see what normal human relationships look like. It is a loss that is almost unfathomable to have an entire childhood surrounded by completely N relationships, because you then have to learn what the right kinds look like, in adulthood. It's kind of like learning to speak a language as an adult versus a child-- much tougher. Just by being an exception to the rule, so to speak, for them, just by contrasting with their homelife, you may benefit them greatly later. You might let them know, just by your presence, that not all men are terrible. And that's a lot to give them!
-
I'm concerned about my niece & nephew so I understand how upsetting it is to see your brother's abuse toward his family. All one can do is be available to the children as a better adult role model. Do you have a bond with these girls from when they were little?
bunny
-
Vunil and Bunny,
Thank you for your replies. I cant tell you how much your thoughtful, insightful adivce is helping me.
Vunil, thanks for mentioning that talking wasnt just an exercise in futility. Yes, you are right, that it is the first thing we do. It is hard to accept that they dont give a lick about your feelings, fairness, the promises they made previously etc. But it is the reality.
I get some relief form the only other female who shares an office with me. She also can get very hung up on his gross unfairness, favoritism of men, snide, demeaning remarks, etc. When I am more centered, I can help her by reminding her, he will never be fair, will always favor the men, put others down, etc.
She wants him to change, but I remind her only we can change. I am very thankful for her presence and feel we must have been put togehter there for a reason. Ironically the bro was so afraid she and I would go at it because in his mind I am sure we are both femi-nazi b's from hell!
The nieces are another issue. Yes, I have been spending much time with them since they are young. But I have noticed a pulling away in the last two years. It may be becuase the older ones are 13 and 15 now and a natural teenage thing. But, it may be the result of his treatment of me and what may be said around the house.
I have also felt a pulling away by his wife, who I always cared for and enjoyed very much. She has her own family issues and it could be that, but I dont know at this time. I try to continue to be available and let the kids know, individually, I am here. Of course they are also very busy on their own with tons of activities. I also try to encourage the wife to let me spend time with the kids if she needs babysitter or they need some special attention that I may have a skill in.
It's a tough one, but as both of you have said, all I can do is be here if they need me and stay on the path of being centered and sane as much as possible.
-
Wow, it seems you have a double whammy here. He is your brother and your boss. I recently left a job because my employer was very similar to what you describe. Fortunately, I was able to leave (financially). In terms of his being your employer, I would think it is hard to find support within the workplace since the other employees depend upon the income they are receiving. The fact that you have one other person to talk with is great. One thing you said I found troubling. His wife is slowly withdrawing from communication with you? A dynamic I experienced was that when I stood up to my employer, the other employees started distancing themselves from me. One thing that helped me was to do a google search on narcissists in the workplace. It helped me define the issues by going to a number of sites that described this situation. It seems that the bottom line is to "not ruffle his feathers". I think it is really important to know that it is not you...He sounds like a real problem! Take care and don't lose your spirit!
-
Thanks again for the help.
Everone seems to agree not to "ruffle the feathers." I guess my dilemna is he comes at me and others often for no apparent reason than he is "in the mood." This is what appeared to happen yesterday.
My question, what is the proper response when someone is coming after you, screaming, cussing, kicking file cabinets, degrading you in front of others? Take it? Say nothing? Change the subject? Walk away? This is a valid question to which I cant seem to find an answer for myself.
Other times it will just be the zinger cut, snide remark, out of nowhere. For awhile I would answer rhetorically, "what is the proper response to that question" or some other vague, innocuous reply. Also kind of liked that commercial where the response was "thank you". Although it made no sense, it threw people off and they responded positively.
Guess I will need some clarification on your concern that his wife is pulling away from me. Is there more to it that I am missing?
He is not technically my boss becaues we are indepedent contractors. It is his office though, which we are using and his contacts to get the work. He however gets a huge cut of all our work, so in some ways he needs us too. I only say this to relay that I believe I have some power here and doubt that he would fire me as one an initial concern.
-
My question, what is the proper response when someone is coming after you, screaming, cussing, kicking file cabinets, degrading you in front of others? Take it? Say nothing? Change the subject? Walk away? This is a valid question to which I cant seem to find an answer for myself.
In imagining this happening, I might do one of the following...
- ignore him completely or look at him blankly
- ask, "Can I get you anything?"
- Say, "I don't mind if you are upset but please leave remarks about me out of it." Yes he will become enraged but he may think twice next time. If you are fearful, he gets reinforcement for his tantrum. If you aren't fearful, he gets no reinforcement. That's what you want to happen.
- Quietly get up and leave the room, only returning when it's calmer.
No technique is going to work perfectly right away, as he has a very bad habit of trashing and destroying everything in his path. The goal is to get him to think you're an inconvenient person to abuse, and hopefully he will avoid you as a target.
Other times it will just be the zinger cut, snide remark, out of nowhere.
Ignore or look at him blankly. Or respond as you have been. That's okay!
I'm sorry about the older girls and wife pulling away from you. I suspect with the girls it's about being teenagers. They probably don't care what their father says about you. The wife, I don't know. Maybe she's scared that her husband will accuse her of disloyalty...?
bunny
-
Bunny,
Thanks for all the coping comments. I am cutting and pasting them to a hidden work file so I can read frequently at the office.
The help here has been invaluable. Thanks again.
-
Guest1,
No problema. Hey, you might like this website. It's about romantic relationships with Ns but also applies to your brother's behavior.
www.drjoecarver.com (go to articles, "Identifying Losers in Relationships")
bunny
-
Thanks Bunny,
I will keep this handy.
I feel the need to share an experience I had with this brother about ten years ago. He came charging at me and knocked me to the ground in front of the entire family. Nobody did a thing and later I was blamed. I disconnected frm the family for several months and tried to get my father, who enables this behavior ot at least doesnt stop it, to go to counseling with me. He refused. The brother is a 6' bodybuilder and I am 5'2" and thin.
-
I am so sorry about what you've been through. He sounds as if he is both narcissistic and borderline. Actually, he sounds exactly like my two uncles, whom I mentioned in a previous e-mail. They would rage at me when I was young and the whole family would laugh.
(need a moment to punch something....)
He also reminds me of my sister, who used to go into my room and trash it, throwing things out the window, breaking things, whatever, whenever she had a random rage. My parents never did anything about it. When I got too big to terrorize she turned on my little brother. I have always thought of her as borderline (and I live pretty far away from her even now!).
Is this crazy guy really so important to your career? I mean, honestly, do his clients like him? Can't you take his clients away, gradually, without him knowing (he isn't going to ever know until it's too late)? There are always excuses you could give for why they are suddenly working with you. Or, just get your own clients? Offices aren't so expensive that you couldn't find something or other, or maybe work out of your house. Or, go into business (i.e., share the rent) with the woman in the office. You know you can trust her and you have a shared history driving you away from him.
I worry that you feel you *have* to deal with him because you were stuck dealing with him in your childhood. If you were in an office with a nutcase like him who wasn't your brother, would you ever stay?
The hardest part of having nutty families is this sense of obligation to try to have a relationship with them-- it is the biggest source of stress in my life right now. I think part of my feeling of obligation was put there by them-- I am obligated to put up with whatever they do because they are the kings and queens of the castle, the entitled, and my desire for something different is evidence of too much emotion, oversensitivity, craziness, whatever. And I sort of still wish I grew up in the Waltons or the Brady Bunch-- I want to believe in family, to feel that loyalty.
No idea if any of this reflects anything for you-- it is helpful for me to see your situation because it is so familiar to me :)
Your poor sister-in-law. She must have major issues to be married to that guy. Jeez Louise.
-
He really pours on the charm for the clients and of course gets away with it because he is very good looking. Actually he is a much younger brother so I wasn't with him that much. I went to college when he was 6. The time I did spend with him seemed pretty nurturing and idyllic to me. Like I would enjoy taking him places like I do now with his kids. He get into all this body building at some point in time and it just got worse from there. I guess compensating for being the youngest? Who knows. Mom was wacky when we were younger so sure that had some effect.
This next statment may reveal some of my shame and issues, but I always wonder if I am treated worse in the family because I discovered I was an alcoholic when I was very young, 19. As soon as I even attempted drinking, I couldnt handle it. I went to rehab almost immediately and it took me a few years after that to totally get down the disease concept etc.
I have been sober for over 20 years but always feel, and sometimes Nar brother brings it up, that somehow I am less than becuase of that. Of course if it wasnt that, it would still be that I am a female, so maybe I am giving it too much credence.
Nar bro said recently that he thought alcoholism was a weakness of character and reflection of an addicitive personality. He was talking about his wife's mother who is a practicing alcoholic. I told him that I spent too many years feeling guilty for being an alcoholic and wasnt going to feel bad about that anymore. Also told him he might want to embrace the disease concept since it is genetic.
AND ye,s wife does have issues because of her alcoholic mother and I am sure my brother. She is basically a very nice person who probalby had a horrible childhood with drunken mother. I feel sad for the loss of her sweetness that may be forthcoming or as someone said she may feel disloyal to him if she is too nice to me.
Re: geting out of here. It is a concept I have tossed around with the other female. We probably could do it. Neither one of us is sure if we want to and there are downsides to leaving here believe it or not.
Thanks so much for your input. This board has helped me so much today and this weekend. I could actually get some sleep and come in here in a fairly good frame of mind. It is wild that this type of help is available through the glory of the internet.
-
Hi Guest1,
I have always feared my brother has a twin somewhere and you have now confirmed those fears.
I have posted the condensed version of my lovely bro elsewhere, if you're interested in comparing notes.
My only solution for my sanity and long term financial freedom was to 'divorce' my brother in court. Are you certain there is no way out career wise? If you are truly stuck with him, then your best bet I think is to keep your head down and bide your time.
There are no half measures with these clowns. If you confront them without the absolute determination to see it all the way to the bloody end regardless of the consequences, they will out last you and you will be worse off than before. If you appease them, but only enough to keep them off your back, not as part of a strategy to sever your ties permanently, you will become oppressed and depressed.
My advice is get away from this creep permanently. There are two ways to do it. Stroke him and appease him while you line your options up behind the scenes to get out. Or, bark in his face like a Doberman as long as it takes for him to either back off or get rid of you. The second option requires a lot of emotional energy and commitment so don't do it unless you are utterly serious. And it might result in the complete estrangement from your family, as he will slander you in ways you can't even imagine if you challenge his nutty world.
You wrote,
My question, what is the proper response when someone is coming after you, screaming, cussing, kicking file cabinets, degrading you in front of others? Take it? Say nothing? Change the subject? Walk away? This is a valid question to which I cant seem to find an answer for myself
Have you considered a video camera? If he stops you have him off your back, if he doesn't you've got a very useful piece of footage.
Guess I will need some clarification on your concern that his wife is pulling away from me. Is there more to it that I am missing?
He is almost undoubtedly telling everyone he can that you are the most vile person alive.
I have had no communication from any relative of mine for over a year strictly because of a whisper campaign of lies and slanders by my brother. Its one of their favorite past times.
My solution has been a costly and drawn out legal battle with my creep. I decided I couldn't look myself in the mirror if i didn't try to stop him. However every situation is different. I won't tell you what to do, except this; do something. Don't let the status quo stand. Even if it requires a years planning, do whatever you need to get away from this jackass permanently.
I feel sorry for my brother because he is so screwed up, but I will feel sorry for him from a great distance. There is no part of him that is worth the damage he does having contact with him.
If you brother knocked you to the ground then, he is a violent dangerous nut. Get out. If your family abandons you because they're enablers or afraid of him, that is still a cost worth paying to be free of this pig. Once you are free of his influence you will begin to see many things about your family, him and most importantly yourself that you can't see right now. Take it from a poor sap who was where you are a few short years ago.
I am so sorry you have gone through the same thing I have. :( I'll pray for you and your situation. God bless.
mudpuppy
-
He came charging at me and knocked me to the ground in front of the entire family. Nobody did a thing and later I was blamed. I disconnected frm the family for several months and tried to get my father, who enables this behavior ot at least doesnt stop it, to go to counseling with me. He refused. The brother is a 6' bodybuilder and I am 5'2" and thin.
A few points here...
(1) Your brother is extremely disturbed. He has psychiatric problems. I assume the rest of the family is afraid of him. They are probably relieved that you're the scapegoat instead of them. This is very bad for you. What has your therapist said about the situation?
(2) If he ever does it again, consider calling the police as this is an assault.
(3) It rarely if ever works to ask family members to enter therapy with you. Don't even bother. Just work on your own assertiveness and boundaries.
bunny
-
Thanks again, Guest and Bunny,
I would like to read your story, Guest, if you will tell me where it is.
Yes, I think I know he is very disturbed and you are right, the family is afraid of him. The disconnect when I was young helped a lot. I guess I should have known this wouldn't work but I actually thought he had changed. Big mistake, I assume. I had spent a lot of time with his children in the last decade and hadnt seen the violence. I supposed that he had gotten better since getting married. Now that I think of it the "charging" incident was probably more like 15 years ago, before he was married.
Our parents are getting older and I wanted to be around in their final days. Of course we never know if these are their final days. I assume when they are gone the s--t will really hit the fan.
I think somebody asked what the therapist says. I am not sure I ever told her about the charging incident. She has pretty much guided me to accept that they will never change and try to change myself. This has been mostly successful. SHe has tried to get me to work on switiching gears and knowing how best to handle him when he goes off. It never is a pat answer. Sometimes yelling back seems to work and sometimes ignoring him or non answers.
I will take to heart your advice to investigate an escape plan. I dont know if I really want to do that now, as I guess you can tell, so hope you all will still support me if currenlty I work on the boundaries, coping skills, etc.
Thanks you once again for listening and caring. It has made such a difference to me.
-
Hi Guest1,
The extremely condensed version of my brother and me is on page two, under the thread 'Destroying an N is self defense not revenge.' Beware, I was pretty ticked off when I wrote it. Being able to vent on this board has taken a lot of that anger away, or at least put it on a slow simmer rather than a roiling boil.
The disconnect when I was young helped a lot.
Me too. Mine is seven years older so I didn't really notice anything seriously wrong til my late twenties. He has gradually gotten worse and worse.
I will take to heart your advice to investigate an escape plan. I dont know if I really want to do that now, as I guess you can tell, so hope you all will still support me if currenlty I work on the boundaries, coping skills, etc.
Gadzooks, I hope you didn't think I was implying its my way or the highway! :shock: :shock: Thats why I said every situation is different. I will absolutely positively support whatever decision you make to cope. It is a tough spot you are in. Tougher than mine in many ways. I was giving you my perspective. If boundaries and coping skills are what you need now then by all means use them. My main point was, which i didn't make too clear, don't get paralyzed. These bozos have a way of conditioning our behavior so that we question any move we might make and often we end up not moving at all.
By the way a grown man who would bowl his own sister over ought to be horse whipped. What a wuss.
I have been sober for over 20 years but always feel, and sometimes Nar brother brings it up, that somehow I am less than becuase of that. Of course if it wasnt that, it would still be that I am a female, so maybe I am giving it too much credence.
These people use any weakness to get in amongst our fibers and make us question and doubt ourselves. You left a word out of that sentence so I'm not sure what you feel less than, but I have too many wonderful friends who have pulled themselves out of a bottle to judge you. I have always respected someone who has gone through that more after learning of it, not less.
I hope we can help each other here Guest1, we sound like we have a lot in common.
Once again, I apologize if you thought I would not support whatever course you take. You have to do what you think is best for you.
By the way you can call me mudpuppy. :wink:
mud[/b]
-
Guest1, Are you sure that you can't find work womewhere else? Have you looked at it from a skills perspective? In other words, can you use the skills you already know in another area? For example, tolerating disrespectful, abusive behavior from people is VERY valuable in many jobs. Yes, I am serious. What about being organized, getting work done in the presence of distractions, computer skills, filing, phone calling, etc. Have you looked seriously for another job? Good people (motivated and self-controlled) are ALWAYS in short supply in my opinion.
As far as alcoholism, you are a person, not a disease. It sounds like you have done a really good job to be sober for 20 years. Talk about long term commitment and self-control. Honestly, I think you are selling yourself short. Keep going to a therapist and learn all those skills in between submission to him and leaving. Glad you're here!
-
sometimes Nar brother brings it up, that somehow I am less than becuase of that
This is just more evidence that he's a knucklehead. Not that we needed any more evidence!
For what it's worth, I asked my parents to go to therapy, too. Along with trying to have a conversation with narcissists (which works super-great), it just seems like a natural rite of passage. I got as far as you did, but I also got to learn that both of my parents are perfect and not in need of therapy, because they told me so. So, you know, that was good to find out...
If you did not have the past you have, he would think of something else to try to jab you with. He probably picked this particular topic because he can tell it bothers you. And secretly he is jealous of anyone with inner strength.
Once I realized how much jealousy underlies narcissism, it helped make a lot of things make sense. It explains why he shoved you, why he wants to fire you and dominate you, why he wants to stop you from being around his family. He suspects you are better than he is. And in this one instance, he is absolutely right :)
And of course we'll all support you in whatever you decide to do-- please keep posting about your situation!
-
Wow, you Guys are amazing. I'm laughing with you on the one hand and going "ah hah" on the other.
Vunil: "jealousy", I never even thought of that. but it makes sense. Geez, how in the world do you combat that, if it is a jealous reaction? I was kind of wondering if that was why his wife was pulling away, because somehow she was worried I was becoming too special to the girls.
For awhile it seemed like the Narbro was picking fights with me at the office immediatley after I had done something special with the kids. Wow, I will have to think of that. And where to learn more about jealousy and the narcissist?
Guest: I will read your story. It is comforting to know that others have been through this. For so many years I thought it was me and took all the guilt and shame. Of course everybody was more than happy to give it to me.
I guess what I was saying about not being ready to escape is I didnt want to seem like one of those people who complains and never does anything about it. Thanks for the support either way.
I appreciate you all being supportive and reassuring about the alcoholism. I know it is something I have never fully come to grips with. I do feel shame even though I know it is the disease. It seemed like everything hit the fan at 19 between folks not accepting my independence and natural sexual emergence, the alcoholism, the revelation no women were allowed into the business.
I think it took me years to get all that together and I am still working on it decades later. I agree the Nars will take anything to make you feel less than..you're a woman, an alcoholic, short, whatever. To look at our family most people would say, Wow, what a great family, communty leaders, etc. Sometimes I think I am going to figure all this out like the day before I die. It just seems there is so much to learn and evolve with.
-
Guest1,
To look at our family most people would say, Wow, what a great family, communty leaders, etc. Sometimes I think I am going to figure all this out like the day before I die. It just seems there is so much to learn and evolve with.
You sound like you are where I was (and still am somewhat). Trying to seperate your individuality from your family. Am I right? My bro was always trying to make everything a family affair; of course with his nefarious little fingers in all the pies. Its sick the way they do it. And if you act independently you're labeled a traitor. Does that sound familiar?
That's where I was anyway, and until I got away from good ol' bro I didn't realize how controlled I was.
Vunil is right about the jealousy. It is a key feature of every N. Inside they feel like they've got nothing and everybody else has what they want. And they're right. How can they not be jealous with that mindset?
mudpup
-
For awhile it seemed like the Narbro was picking fights with me at the office immediatley after I had done something special with the kids. Wow, I will have to think of that. And where to learn more about jealousy and the narcissist?
N's are all super-envious. That is a hallmark of narcissism. What you can do about it....ignore his envy, do not react to it, do not act like you've done anything wrong. You can't make him less envious. All you can do is react very little. With this guy, it's all about giving him no reinforcement. He wants you to react and he baits you at every opportunity. He tries to push your buttons. This means you should not let him see that he's succeeded. Even if he got to you, show nothing in his presence. Your goal is to bore him and make him less interested in you as a target. Make yourself almost blank. You don't have to act that way to his wife or children but be very bland around him.
Your family is all about the veneer but you aren't like that. (thank goodness)
bunny
-
Guest 1, sorry coming in a bite late here, but - about alcoholism. (Please read this with a jaunty kind of laughable air okay? I'm worried it might sound 'preachy', I don't mean to.) If you had a particular food intolerance, you wouldn’t eat that food right? Let’s say you gave up wheat 20 years ago and in those 20 years you’ve felt fine. Would you today be saying I’m a wheataholic? Would you consider that a ‘disease’?
Saying you’re an alcoholic is labelling you, like you have some innate badness inside you. Rubbish! Alcohol doesn’t agree with you, so you don’t drink. It doesn’t make you bad. It’s the effect of alcohol that’s bad. How does “I have alcohol-intolerance” sound? Different?
Labelling you an alcoholic is about as sensible as labelling everyone ‘food dependant’ or ‘cyanide-intolerant’. :P Stupid. After 20 years it’s no longer helpful to even think about it being part of what makes you ‘you’.
Do smokers who give up for 20 years call themselves ‘smoke-aholics’ and say they still have a disease? Oh they probably do these days! :roll: It’s just words and labels and they can be so dangerous in shaping how we see ourselves. Sometimes just changing the words slightly can help us see things in a whole new way.
About using terms like ‘practising alcoholic’ (PA). This is how I would describe:
You: someone who discovered they react badly to alcohol and therefore doesn’t drink it. A sensible person! :D
PA: someone who discovered they react badly to alcohol but prefers to kill themselves quickly by continuing to drink it. Suicidal! :(
You aren’t in the same category as the PAs. BUT using the terms ‘alcoholic’ and ‘practising alcoholic’ puts you in the same sort of category doesn’t it? :idea: You kind of get the shame rubbing off on you which belongs to a completely separate group of people. It doesn’t belong to you, it’s not your shame. In fact you have the opposite to shame: you can be really very proud of the fact that you faced your intolerance straight away and dealt with it! :D
You started out with a lot of hurdles to face (being female, having a brother like yours etc) and in jumping those hurdles, you’re a stronger, wiser person. Tell him that next time he mentions an ‘addictive personality’. “Yeah, I had all those problems and I overcame them, what are your achievements buddy?” Say you have another problem too: ‘idiocy-intolerance’!
Phew. I didn’t realise I felt quite that strongly about this! I think I feel strongly about mis-use of words and giving groups of people labels. We’re all individuals. And you sound pretty cool guest1. P
-
Bunny, Portia and Mudpup,
Thanks for all the encouragment. I do need to remember to stay bland and blank. It is so unlike me, but I must remember this. It is difiuclt to understand the jealousy but you guys are really helping. WHen I first got sober Mom seemed so jealous. I really didnt understand it although we had some typical and untypical mother/daughter struggles for many years.
I know that the alcoholism has effected my self esteem greatly. Again it is that perfect veneer that was shattered. Intellectually, I know what you say is true. It still takes time to sink in. When I add up all my "issues", if you want to call them that, and what the family does to label me, it is a constant struggle. I very much appreciate you guys seeing through that to the pretty neat person I do think I am.
Narbro actually gave me some work yesterday so maybe we are getting somewhere. Also the work he dumped on me Friday was sitting in the completed basket Monday morning so he can't say I am too slow, which is one of his ridculously rubbish reasons why he gives new guy more work. I will stay below the radar.
A good day to all.
b
-
Hi Guest1 AKA b,
I know that the alcoholism has effected my self esteem greatly. Again it is that perfect veneer that was shattered.
I think that's one reason everyone gets along so well here; none of has a 'perfect veneer' to worry about anymore. The fairy tale life ended for most of us early on when the N troll under the bridge :twisted: showed up in our lives.
You sound smart, realistic and wise in dealing with your situation. Its quite a shock when you start learning the depths of an Ns problems isn't it? I think you are on a very even keel. Much better than I was doing at the same stage.
Maybe if you could look at the shattering of the veneer as a positive thing that made you stronger and wiser at a young age, it would help with the self esteem thing.
Like I said before you had a problem, you faced it and licked it. That's real life. That is something to be very proud of. A silly phony facade we erect is not. The veneer is what's shameful, and more importantly a phony veneer is a sign of a powerful self esteem issue. One most people won't admit they have.
By the way have you copyrighted 'Narbro'? Do you think I could use it, I like the sound of it. :wink:
mudpuppy
-
Hi mudpup,
I like the Narbro thing too. Feel free to use it. The "Narbroro Man".
Thanks also for the reinforcment. I think 90% of the time I am glad I had the hard knocks early. It did force me to get help and examine/evaluate my life. I am lucky in many ways. I have had a pretty exciting life. traveled around the states a lot. Tons of different jobs and careers. Lived in some different places here. I allow the family make me feel bad at times for take you pick
1. never getting married
2. no kids
3. being an alcoholic
4. not conforming to the perfect veneer lifestyle
5. recent Nar bf reincarnation
Intellectually I know I have been very fortunate to have the roadblocks because a lot of the silly stuff in life isn't that important to me..at least not usually. I need refresher courses at times and this place is great for that.
I loved the voicelessness title because that was initially what my current therapist wanted to focus on. I was having some TMJ style issues and ultimately I believe they were connected to strangling my own voice. Has anyone else experienced the physical impact of no voice or losing your voice?
I could then often go to the other extreme of too powerful, loud, abrasive when in a power struggle situation. It has meant a lot to stay grounded in my femininity and get my point across from a centered spot. I believe I thought they were mutually exclusive when in the throes of battle.
I would like to continue to work on this as well as the ever creative ways to handle Narbro.
b
-
Hi again Guest1,
The "Narbroro Man".
Wow we are definitely on the same wavelength. :shock: Thats exactly what I thought of when I read narbro. I almost said something about it in my post but figured nobody would know what I was talking about.
Has anyone else experienced the physical impact of no voice or losing your voice?
Well I had laryngitis over the weekend but I think that was from my bronchial infection. Probably doesn't count, huh? :?
Good luck with your Narbroro Man. Maybe his horse will kick him in that certain spot for you. :D
mud
-
1. never getting married
2. no kids
3. being an alcoholic
4. not conforming to the perfect veneer lifestyle
5. recent Nar bf reincarnation
Well, if that all qualifies you as terrible, then I guess we're all just hopeless cases :)
Poor narbro man. What will he do when he runs out of people to be mean to?
-
That last post makes me think of the Eagle's song Desperado. We should make new words:
Despera-narbro, why don't you come to your senses?
You've been out beating up fences, for so long now.
Well, you're an N one, but I know that you've got your reasons.
These things that are pleasin' you make you very irritating somehow.
[etc.]
-
Hi vunil'
Your post made me think of 'Nowhere man' as in "he's a real narwhere man...."
Somebody else can fill in the rest. :D
mud
-
I don't think any changes need to be made to the lyrics. So fitting of a N.
He's a real nowhere man
Sitting in his nowhere land
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody
Doesn't have a point of view
Knows not where he's going to
Isn't he a bit like you and me
Nowhere man please listen
You don't know what you're missing
He's as blind as he can be
Just sees what he wants to see
Nowhere man can you see me at all
Mia
-
Narbro actually gave me some work yesterday so maybe we are getting somewhere. Also the work he dumped on me Friday was sitting in the completed basket Monday morning so he can't say I am too slow, which is one of his ridculously rubbish reasons why he gives new guy more work. I will stay below the radar.
You realize, of course, that he'll find something else to complain about....
bunny
-
Hey, I kind of got away from this post and down the other one.
Thanks, I guess, for reminding me that it will never be enough with Narbroro Man. He says something to me today like "oh you like me now?" I said "your my brother. I will always love you. " Didnt really want to get into a discussion about anything.
It's funny or maybe not so, that after he hurls on everyone he thinks we were mean to him. Somebody explain that one to me.
I guess I still have an awful lot to learn about this nar thing. I hope I live long enough to figure it out. I want to be happy in life and usually am. I want to be evolved and get the most out of everything. i would like to have a half way decent relationshp with my family but not at my expense.
I hope to have a meaningful relationship with a non nar man. But tempus is fugating and I may run out of time. Just a thought.
-
after he hurls on everyone he thinks we were mean to him. Somebody explain that one to me.
Projection. He is mean but twists it around so that the other person was mean to him. He's behaving like a 4-year-old who doesn't want to own up to something. He quickly turns it around so the meanness and badness belong elsewhere. What I call "tossing the hot potato" so he doesn't have to feel something painful.
bunny
-
That's it Bunny! Exactly it. Tossing the hot potatoe. I have been feeling that a very early memory is coming up for me...not real clear, but it's a frustration at having things turned on me when I KNEW very well that my meaning was clear and my opinion was valid...but I was silenced, had my words twisted by someone very jealous of me. One of my sisters (N ish) would do this to me. I always thought my exN reminded me of her (at least when we were little kids!...she has, for the most part grown out of it, my ex is still 6 years old!)
Bliz brought it up.....the "why are you mean to ME? Look what you did to me...you're really the bad person.." after they have just kicked the S...t out of someone! Yes. This is making sense.
The sheer frustration of it all!
-
Holy crap! I am sitting here crying like a baby. I think I uncovered something. I need to talk to my therapist about it.
I'm really sorry if I "hijacked" something. I'm not meaning to...just have to get this out.
I'm young. Pre-school perhaps. I am the baby of the family. I am resented, I think, by one of my sisters. She is 3 years older than me, and there is another sister between us.
I think I am held down, screaming and swinging wildly at someone. I know I am so frustrated! I feel so powerless and small and weak. Dont' know who....but I am not believed, some story is twisted against me, and I am told to be nice. I KNOW I am nice, and that I just got a whif of injustice.
Ok, I can't go there yet. This is really hard. WOW. I'll have to sit with this.
Maybe this is nothing. But early on, I learned to allow angry people to silence me. I learned to make everyone happy and not rock the boat.
It has driven my choices my whole life. I don't hate that part of me, really. It is also what makes me a kind teacher and mother, and keeps me compassionate. I know what pain is for people. I know they need to be treated well.
But oh boy........what is this THING that just came up for me?
-
Maybe this is nothing.
No, it definitely seems like something... If you are remembering it now, even in a fuzzy way, it's in your head, affecting you.
It sounds like a sad toddler memory. I'm so sorry
:(
-
mum,
I'm sorry you are upset about the traumatic memory. We never know what is going to traumatize a child for decades. And unfortunately children can be pretty brutal at times (Lord of the Flies and all that). Hopefully this will open up some new options for you.
{{{ mum }}}
bunny
-
Thanks so much, Bunny and Vunil. I am actually kind of excited about this, now. I feel I am on a precepice (I know my spelling lacks...sorry)...
so I am not still sad or anything. I am finding my reaction to this memory very interesting. There is something there. It will come. I really appreciate the responses...you know the old N victim thing, always thinking she's being selfish in simply speaking, never sure she's worthy of a response! I know there are people here who have been through absolute brutality, so this little sibling thing may sound petty to someone else.
You guys are great. Thank you.
-
"I think I am held down, screaming and swinging wildly at someone. I know I am so frustrated! I feel so powerless and small and weak. Dont' know who....but I am not believed, some story is twisted against me, and I am told to be nice. I KNOW I am nice, and that I just got a whif of injustice.
Ok, I can't go there yet. This is really hard. WOW. I'll have to sit with this.
"
Mum, This IS something. I have these memories too. Not being held down, but I specifically remember when the tide changed as a child. More and more credence was given to my next younger brother. All of a sudden the rules didnt apply to him. He didnt have to do chores. He had football practice etc. Often discounted for his lack of academic skills, now he was cherished for something (???).
Gradually the rules were changing and I was no longer cherished for my abilities. I was never truly cherished for just being me. I think that is one of the saddest things about living in the Nar world. You are not "Ok" as you are. You must do this or be that ,to be loved. Again, all about externals.
I remember a specific incident in our driveway when I was about 16. I dont remember exactly what happened but the oldest brother was getting away with murder. Somehow I was blamed. I pretty much threw a fit. I remember it just came out. It got people's attention.
Maybe I should have raged more as a child. I did not know what to do with my rage so turned it inward into destructive habits. (Be nice, don't make waves). In retrospect I can see my rage mounting from 16-18, my final years in the house. My response to the anger was often to do more. Get more honors in school, more school activities etc. By college I had run myself into the ground.
The sad thing is our efforts and being are still discounted today by the Nar family members. As many have said to me here, they will never change and we can only change ourselves to strengthen our boundaries and aquire new or more copoing skills.
Still something has to be done with the anger. Recognizing it must be the first step. I know physical exercise has helped me alot. I am a runner and the training and general movement really help.
Also David Berneson's tool called , "The map of emotions". Has anyone heard of it? It's about allowing yourself and making space in your body to feel your emotions. Often if I will do this exercise the emotion will be felt and released and I am back to centered. Sometimes I just do a crazy witch dance to. Setting the whole mood to music and dance. Hey whatever works, right?
-
Mum
I know there are people here who have been through absolute brutality, so this little sibling thing may sound petty to someone else.
If it sounds petty, the person hearing isn't listening so well.
It doesn't matter so much what the actual event was: what matters is your reaction, your emotions, your thoughts, your interpretation, your perception and the way those things have shaped your thinking ever since.
Everyone's experiences are equally valid and important.
(((Mum))) (((Bliz)))