Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Greta on March 15, 2005, 02:14:05 PM
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I'm coming up on the gauntlet of Easter, my nmother's birthday(April 1st. . .) and Mother's Day, and struggling with what it means to be a "good daughter." I haven't seen nmother in several years because in her presence I feel like I cease to exist. I was her little shadow, following her around, and never imagined that I could set any boundaries at all with her. I feel bad for the person I was at 24--when my h and I got married, she stayed in the living room of our efficiency apartment on our wedding night. I didn't have a voice to say "get a hotel" and in fact it wouldn't have occurred to me. She trained me to accept her intrusiveness, and so now, when I stay away, I feel like a horrible daughter.
At the beginning of therapy 4 years ago I assumed that I would know I was healthy when I could see my mother again, and have a *normal* relationship. Over the past couple years I realized that this cannot be the benchmark of my health, and is unlikely to happen because her emotional vampirism is not going away. I am getting own life for the first time ever, and that's what counts. But she sent an email last year wondering if my therapy was helping, and maybe I should take medication--all because I haven't started seeing her again. I had to keep telling myself that she couldn't take my progress away from me.
My therapist believes that sending her cards on her birthday and a small gift at Christmas, and short chit chatty emails every couple months constitutes being a *good daughter.* This of course was a radical idea to me! My mother could never get enough of me--no visit was ever long enough(except of course if she had something better to do). Does anyone on the board have experience with redefining what it means to be a good daughter(or good son)? What makes it worse is that she's a minister, so everyone thinks she's a saint, and she's a therapist, which is just plain scary.
I've learned so much from reading this board--I'm glad it's here!
Greta
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Wow, Greta. You sound very healthy and centered to me. I would not want that kind of calm to be upset, either.
Boundaries are so very hard. Especially with a parent, I would imagine.
But I have been learning that setting them is truly the most compassionate thing we can do, for ourselves and for those who routinely violate them. It tells them we care too much about ourselves and them to accept anything short of love and respect from them. Interesting.
Your mother is not the first major Narc I have heard of who parades around as a "higher up" of a church. How very sad. I imagine, though, there are lots of N's in such postitions. Power is power to them, regardless of the package (even if it seems contradictory to us who see through the mask).
I think your therapist's idea of a "good daughter" is fine, but even that may be just too much for you. Hard to do, but if you can forget that she is your mother for a moment....would it help? Then decide whether you would be communicating with this person at all. Then go from there.
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Hi Greta,
My therapist believes that sending her cards on her birthday and a small gift at Christmas, and short chit chatty emails every couple months constitutes being a *good daughter.*
I hope this doesn't sound mean but that is more than she deserves.
Don't you think your interaction with your mom should be completely dependent on what is healthy for you? If that means zero contact then so be it. Your duty is to get healthy and not be pulled backwards by the person who failed you as a mother.
I redefined the role with my brother by finally realizing he is not a brother at all, and completely severing contact with him. I never did watch the end of 'Rosemary's Baby'. Maybe my parents unwittingly adopted her kid. :twisted:
You have been forced to raise yourself, emotionally speaking. The only thing that matters in that case is protecting yourself. If you can interact with her, while staying healthy and it feels right then trust your instincts. However she has forfeited her right to have you consider what is best for her by forfeiting her duty to raise you in a loving home.
To thine own self be true.
mudpup
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What does it mean to be a good daughter or good sibling?
That was just what I was thinking when I retreated to this board today after dealing with yet another brother. He is way too busy, which I know isnt true to keep these new summer trailer search going. Naturally he thinks I have lots of time because I am single. Could not be more wrong. I suggested sharing the duties to move the concept forward but sharing was too much for him. It had to be all me working or nothing. SO naturally I will feel like the bad daughter if I dont keep this moving forward and the brothers are more than happy to blame me for not doing all the work, sitting in the back seat, etc. AAEEEIII!!!?
Oh Greta, I am so sorry. I hijacked your thread. Please forgive me.
Trying to decide what is appropriate and what we can tolerate as far as being the "good" daughter, sister, etc., is difficult espeically with mothers and daughters as those very words have such a powerful impact. When you said you felt like your mother's shadow with no voice of your own. some strange familiar feeligns started hitting me. That was how I felt.
I agree with the posters that say it is up to you and what you are comfortable with. You are not a bad daughter by setting your own boundaries. Unfortunatley those with your mothers tendancies know no boundaires and constantly violate ours. Can you leave town on Easter? I have found that to be an appropriate response.
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My therapist believes that sending her cards on her birthday and a small gift at Christmas, and short chit chatty emails every couple months constitutes being a *good daughter.*
I concur. You don't have to be a "good" daughter, but a "good-enough" daughter. And that's good enough for yourself, not for her. She made herself impossible to deal with. There are consequences for that.
bunny
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Guest1/b,
What is the "summer trailer search"? Just because everyone agrees that you have to do all the work, doesn't mean you have to co-sign the BS.
bunny
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Hi Guest1,
I also do not know what a summer trailer search is but I do know about the rest of it.
I suggested sharing the duties to move the concept forward but sharing was too much for him. It had to be all me working or nothing.
My jackass sibling would actually give me a list of things I needed to accomplish while he took a six month vacation overseas. This of course would be in addition to me working like a dog at our business and giving him half the profits.
What is now so hard for me to believe is, I actually did some of them, and then would listen to him complain about how poorly I had done them when he got back! God that used to infuriate me!
I keep complaining about the limited types of emoticons here; I could really use one puking right about now. Here, this guys mouth is open, just imagine he's tossing his cookies. :x
Many Ns I believe are terrified of failure and what appears to be laziness or a sense of entitlement is actually this fear. That's why they aspire to management, if something goes right they take the credit, if something goes wrong there's always an underling to be the fall guy. :evil:
mudpup
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I have to come up with a real name here. I dont want to hijack Greta's thread even if it is related. The summer trailer thing goes back to my thread about the Nar brother but now a different one. The one that actually went with me to look at the summer trailers after crazy body builder Nar brohter got upset because I was sitting in the front seat of the car.
Greta, we can only do what we can, as good daughters, sisters, brothers, husbands, wives, friends etc. So many of us have had trouble setting these boundaries. And it is so often trial and error to find out what we can live with and what are boundaries are. ANd many of us, particularly the woman, want to please people. Unfortuantley it was how we were raised even if we were or are independent. It still seems left to us to plan the events, do the work, etc, etc. Carry the emotional load for the family.
How much time do you spend with aging parents or psychotic brothers? And at least one has a nar psycho wife. I can spend a lot of time with them if they arent shaming, blaming, taking out their anxieties on me or expecting me to do all the work. This does actuallyhappen sometiems but who knows why?
Greta, I dont know if this will help you but I had so many bad experiences at Christmas I started leaving town for CHristmas. It is also my birthday. Christmas away from everybody has had its sad moments but it has mostly been a huge relief. I go to Florida. I decided enough was enough several years ago. We actually did spend Christmas all together this year in Flroida. Probably the first time for me in 12 years or more. It had its great moments especially with the kids, but was kind of nerve wracking. I got a lot of massages and spent hours trying to get the club steam room to work. Sometimes I just laid down on its bench to center myself even when it wasnt working..hahaha!!!
Maybe it is time to create your own traditions without your mother or with limited involvement with her. Is that possible? If you have family, can you go somewhere? I hope this has helped and isnt too much about me. I would like to think I could help someone else too.
Bliz (new name)
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I thought that the healthier I got the more contact I would be able to have with my N Mom as well. However, I've found the opposite to be true. The healthier I am the more accutely I feel the pain of her dishonesty, lack of respect, slander and rejection. Unfortunately, the nature of my Mom's N causes her to need to be the center of male attention - the moment I was born I became a threat to her.
I am learning to take much better care of my heart which means no contact with my Mom. It's a hard path to take - but it is better than routinely putting my heart through a meat grinder. Being a good daughter means learning to be true to ourselves even when we have to live with the discomfort of disappointing others.
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"My jackass sibling would actually give me a list of things I needed to accomplish while he took a six month vacation overseas. This of course would be in addition to me working like a dog at our business and giving him half the profits.
What is now so hard for me to believe is, I actually did some of them, and then would listen to him complain about how poorly I had done them when he got back! God that used to infuriate me!
I keep complaining about the limited types of emoticons here; I could really use one puking right about now. Here, this guys mouth is open, just imagine he's tossing his cookies.
Many Ns I believe are terrified of failure and what appears to be laziness or a sense of entitlement is actually this fear. That's why they aspire to management, if something goes right they take the credit, if something goes wrong there's always an underling to be the fall guy."
Boy this does sound like them, write down to the list and then criticism.
The summer trailer thing is getting a new accomodation at a family river camp. Mom and Dad actually were willing to chip in money if the kids would organize the search and find the trailer Naturally this is fraught with problems.
Nar brother stormed out of the first meeting last year when he got into it with brother number 2. He stormed out of the car last Saturday becuase I was sitting in the front seat. (Can you belive it?) Power, power, power. Brother1 and I went on to the mobile home place and knocked out several questions and looked at accomodations but now he is "too busy" to assist in moving things forward .
Brother1 actulally sent over a list for me to do, similar to the above. I emailed back how about splitting the duties and he said he was "buried" unitl April 15th. Trust me this guy goes down to company number 1 and does nothing all day. It is a very poorly kept secret. But now he can say that the whole thing fell through because I wouldnt follow up. He can alwasy say it is the kids, wife, etc. I dont have the ready made excuse but trust me I probably work more hours than any of them. I threw it back at him to at least split some of the duties but we will see.
Just infuriates me how their time and everything else about them is more valuable than anyone else and the parents will probably support it.
Aeeiiii!!! (Sound of me running down the street pulling my substantial amount of hair out.)
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Greta,
I went through this with both my parents (who are now both dead) at two different times so I know what you are going through. My father was the truly impossible one to live with and made life miserable for all of us. I put up with his crap all my life, finally getting strong enough to stand up for myself and my mother, but she always took his side anyway. I finally couldn't take the stress anymore and walked away for two years with no contact with either of them. My mother blamed me, of course, and made me out to be the evil daughter. Fortunately I lived 350 miles away so I could distance myself both mentally and physically. I returned to see him 2 weeks before he died. His death did not affect me at all.
After my father died, I did what I had to do to help my mother, but we never had any relationship after that and she was eventually diagnosed with Alzheimers, changed her will leaving 80% of her estate to my brother who is not married and has no children. She left the remaining 20% to me and nothing to my children, who were her only grandchildren. She passed away in early January and I have felt virtually nothing at her loss either.
I sometimes wonder what is wrong with me, but I think it has much more to do with what was wrong with them. I also raised myself emotionally which makes you feel like you had no parents.
Greta, do what you have to do to save yourself. Don't lose sleep over the guilt of not contacting your mother. She is not worth it. You are. You have a chance to be happy and live a normal life. She's the one that has to adapt and change to allow you to return to a relationship with her. Don't sacrifice yourself unless she is willing to change. If she is an N she most likely won't. These people poison us and leave us damaged. You are in therapy to get healed. The only way that can work is if you don't keep redamaging yourself by allowing her presence in your life.
I'm praying for you.
Brigid
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Hi Bliz (definitely better than guest 1),
He stormed out of the car last Saturday becuase I was sitting in the front seat.
Hilarious, :lol: :lol: .... of course I wasn't there.
My daughter was literally more mature than my brother when she was five, LITERALLY. She had to set the rules if they were playing together.
I'll bet you could make some tremendous contributions to the "most narcissistic comments ever" thread.
Aeeiiii!!! (Sound of me running down the street pulling my substantial amount of hair out.)
I can't afford to do that anymore. :cry: Not quite as substantial as it used to be. :cry:
mudpup
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I thought that the healthier I got the more contact I would be able to have with my N Mom as well. However, I've found the opposite to be true. The healthier I am the more accutely I feel the pain of her dishonesty, lack of respect, slander and rejection.
Chutz, The healthier you become, and the more it shows, the more of a threat you are. Remember Don Quixote? or the movie Man of La Mancha? how he was defeated by the Knight of the Mirrors, who showed him what he really was? Quixote was a sympathetic character, idealistic (at least in the film - the book's a lot rougher!), so it's not a perfect analogy, but when you hold a mirror up to a N - a real mirror, not some magic mirror flattering thing - they can't stand it, they can't face it, they have to stop it any way possible.
And oh yeah. I noticed when I went to Al-anon and CoDA meetings that the old-timers were easy to recognize by one key feature: they no longer had their primary addict/abusers in their lives.
((((Chutzbagirl))))
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Bliz,
These people have a history of exploiting you. Reasoning/arguing with them about sharing responsibilities is useless. They aren't interested. So what if they blame you. They always do anyway. I say, blame me all you want. Let's see how many trailers that gets you.
bunny
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You guys are killing me between your succinct advice and humor. I will have to go over to the most narcisstic comments ever made. Is there a spell check to this proceedure? Just asking. Thought it mightbmake it easier to read my posts.
This board could be a dangerous habit though as I am putting off work to be her. AHHH, who cares, the Narbro works out every day from Noon-2PM, no matter how busy we are and then comes in all hyped up to yell at us to work more. We are like the worker bees in "Metropolis".
I did want to try to say something to Greta that may or may not help. My own mother was in an orphanage from the age of 2-13 or so. SHe was with her sister, although their mother was still alive. She got them out as pre teens but neither felt a close relationshp to their own mother.
It was interesting to observe my mother develope over the years. I now believe she was definitely Nar when we were kids. She did go to therapy and created a life for herself. Sort of an identity that she never had as a child. She also greatly improved in her ability to love when the grandkids came around.
I watched her attend to her own mother's ailing needs, which thankfully didnt last long. I wondered how she could do it since I knew she had little attachment to her. She said she did it to assuage her own guilt. I think she did just enough to not feel bad when she finally died 6 years ago at 94.
It was never enough with her mother. You could do stuff for her all day and she would call you up and yell that you didnt do more. Sometimes Mom would invite her to family events but often not. I think she found out her own boundaries. Even though MOm caves to the men on occasion I have a great respect for how far she has come considering she had no real parenting of her own. Very sad. When I think of her being left at an orphanage at two years old, it just breaks my heart.
Unfortunately many Nars, I assume have had similar injury. I would assume the same for Mom's Mom as I believe their mother abandoned them also. My therapist once said I come from a long line of mother's abandoning daughters. You have to wonder what that is all about.
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Hi Greta
My therapist believes that sending her cards on her birthday and a small gift at Christmas, and short chit chatty emails every couple months constitutes being a *good daughter.*
I agree. I assuage my guilt with flowers sent to her home. But I don’t visit. But wait! SHE doesn’t visit ME either (thank goodness). She isn’t a good mother to me. When she’s a good mother, maybe I’ll be a good daughter (hell just froze over at the thought). It’s not one way Greta.
It’s not your sole responsibility to keep this relationship going.
This of course was a radical idea to me! My mother could never get enough of me--no visit was ever long enough(except of course if she had something better to do).
‘better to do’ – ditto here. When you say visit, this was you visiting her? Did she visit you? Did she make an effort?
Does anyone on the board have experience with redefining what it means to be a good daughter(or good son)?
Try being a good person first? And good to yourself first? I’m trying. It’s not easy.
What makes it worse is that she's a minister, so everyone thinks she's a saint, and she's a therapist, which is just plain scary.
Yep, that is scary. I continue to be amazed at who gets to be a therapist. I think I’ll set up as an unlicensed guerrilla therapist. Could I do as much damage as some of these people?
Bunny thanks! You don't have to be a "good" daughter, but a "good-enough" daughter
me too please :D
Hey mudpup, 'Rosemary's Baby' ends in a very creepy way, great film (ah the ‘erbs and tanis root) but I’m not going into details with all our expectant mums on the board! Well okay I will: even though her baby is the Devil’s own, she still stays with him to be his loving mother! There’s more mother love in her for the anti-Christ’s child than can be found in many of our ‘homes’. :? Hmm.
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Greta,
This thread got me feeling and thinking. Seems no matter what I would do I just wasn't a "good enough daughter". So I've quite trying to be a "good daughter" a "good enough daughter" or even a "daughter". Anyways I was never really the daughter, I was expected to fill the role of the parent. So ... it's time for the child to grow up and leave the nest.
Some people you can never have a "normal" relationship with. Ones gauge of healthyness is not if they can have a "normal" relationship with someone who isn't capable of having a "normal" relationship. So I agree that gauge needs to be thrown out.
Now if my mother or father were in financial need I would provide what I could, now they are not in that situation, they are well off financially. Other than that I don't feel compelled to open myself up or my family (husband and children) to their games.
LM
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Other than that I don't feel compelled to open myself up or my family (husband and children) to their games.
Same here LM. That can be a tough thing to do but its necessary when there is no reward just all misery.
Takes a strong daughter to be able to that. I'm glad your one, especially for your kids.
Mudpup
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Stay away, Greta. My mother and my sister cost me thousands in psychiatric fees, several suicide attempts, and years of self blame. Nothing was ever good enough, I was NEVER a good enouh daughter or sister. Well, fuck em. I quit trying. I quit being the bad seed, found my own life, and even managed to have a wonderful whole existence--after I started using my tremendous life energy to LIVE instead of support two vampires. After mom died, I cut sis out for ten years. Six years ago, much healther, I let her back in. She honeymooned me for two years, got cancer and got away with emotional murder (she was under so much stress, how could I object?), and then, when she got better, started to play hardball again. After the last vicious attack, I said enough, said goodbye and just walked away.
I know it hurts to do this (boy, do I know) but not doing it hurts a lot more. Remember--you didn't make them they way they are, and you don't owe them a cure or your life. You owe them less than half of what they have already taken from you. Be safe, be happy, be free, and STAY AWAY.
freegirl.
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Thank you to all who so kindly posted a reply to my questions about being a *good* daughter. I really liked bunny's idea of being a *good enough* daughter.
And Chutzbagirl's comment that the healthier you get the harder it may be to have a relationship with a troubled person, because you truly see how scary they are, made a lot of sense in my situation. I haven't seen her in so long, that I find myself drifting into "Was she really that bad?" I have to do a mental accounting of how much pain I was in when I finally found a good therapist, and come back to reality. My Nmother seems so harmless to the rest of the world and that drives me crazy!
I keep reminding myself that nothing is enough for my mother, so to sacrifice myself by doing things on her terms, is a sacrifice done for an illusion--the illusion that I will ever be able to fulfill her needs. It's hard to let go of that illusion--the hope that there is something I could do to make her see me as a real person, make her love me, but for my sanity I have to keep working on letting it go.
Greta
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Greta:
I have to N brothers. The longer I live away from them and the exposure the harder it is to "visit" or listen to their blathering about themselves. It is very startling when you do visit or allow them back into your life for a short period of time, nothing changes with them does it?
You end up doing the only thing you can..........little or no contact to minimize the Nness and abuse.
I am glad you have been able to work through it all and go on and make a good life for yourself. It takes a lot of "nerves of steel" to make it through. I have only the greatest respect for you for making it. Patz
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I haven't seen her in so long, that I find myself drifting into "Was she really that bad?"
Greta, I am going through the exact same thing (seems I am always writing that here-- I guess this board is the place for me!). Last weekend I talked to my N mom after a few weeks of no contact and it took me a couple of days to get over that 20 minute conversation.
One thing I've found, and I'm interested to hear if others have found this, is that the more I am around them the more I can tolerate them. I don't know if it's because they stop some of the games after awhile or if I just get used to being the doormat (I think it's the latter). After being away a lot in the last 6 months or so, really not talking to them at all for a good three months, now I can't tolerate them particularly well at all. I actually feel physically ill after a couple of minutes.
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Vunil:
I think it is sorta like a frog in the water. The frog is in the frying pan and the water is just lukewarm, slowly the water is getting hotter but the frog does not notice, because the heat has slowly been turned up. Before you know it, he is one fried frog! Same with being around the Nness of your family. Pretty soon you find yourself "tolerating" all kind of things. Your separation and mine, for that matter, allows for validation, introspection, analytical comparasion.............hence little or no "toleration" for their Nness.
I don't know about you, but when I do visit, their behaviour, their values, whatever you want to call it, is horrifying. At least my N brother began to realize that I found his and his children's "lifestyle" horrifying. When he confronted me with this I told him yes I found how they lived horrifying.
Haven't been back since. Patz
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When I lived far away from my parents, visiting them was really hard. I noticed all the dysfunction as under a microscope. Now that I live near them again, I'm more used to them. I definitely put on a mask around them but it's not the mask I used to wear of neurosis and wierdness. I now wear the mask of cordiality and shallowness. It works really well and I feel my parents appreciate it. They can't tolerate much more than that. I usually have to "debrief" after seeing them but it only takes about a half-hour when it used to take a week.
My late MIL was another story. I had to drink beforehand to face her. Her behavior really upset me. My H and I had our worst marital problems over my inability to visit her, phone her, or have any relationship with her unless I was forced to. Fortunately for our marriage, she was very old and died. Ironically, he avoids my family like the plague but I understand his feelings. He couldn't understand my feelings because he was so enmeshed with his mom.
bunny
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Hi vunil,
One thing I've found, and I'm interested to hear if others have found this, is that the more I am around them the more I can tolerate them. I don't know if it's because they stop some of the games after awhile or if I just get used to being the doormat (I think it's the latter).
Definitely the latter for me. When you're immersed in it its just so much easier to go along than be beaten down or attacked for speaking up. When I'm away from it, as I have been for awhile now, my tolerance for the way he treats people is zero. I lose respect for myself for ever tolerating it.
bunny wrote,
I definitely put on a mask around them but it's not the mask I used to wear of neurosis and wierdness. I now wear the mask of cordiality and shallowness. It works really well and I feel my parents appreciate it.
I can't do that anymore. I refuse to put that mask on that tells my brother his behavior is acceptable. Its the only 'mask' I'm aware of ever wearing, and I'm ashamed I wore it. When I had that mask on I stood by while he did to other people what he is doing to me.
That's not a criticism of you bunny. They are your parents which is a different relationship, and their behavior is probably different than my N. Its just what I personally have to do have any self respect.
mudpuppy
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mudpup,
I wouldn't wear that mask either and I'm glad you took it off. I don't condone any really crappy behavior around me. I step up to the plate and they know I will do it.
bunny
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Hi All:
Greta, if your mother were a really, really good mom, then she would deserve to be treated really, really well and you wouldn't have to struggle to be what seems like a really good daughter, right? Wouldn't all of that just come naturally?
It seems to me that your mother was not a good mom at all. Do you think she deserves to be treated really, really well, even if you have to struggle to be what seems like a really good daughter? Even if it feels unnatural?
Or......can you redefine what being a good daughter really is and try to match that to what you feel like giving back to her, according to her mothering and what feels natural to you?
You are a good daughter, Greta. But you don't have a good mother to share good things with. Maybe it would help to think of it as giving her whatever good things it feels good to give. If that is a nice card that you really like, with words you really mean.......what's so awful about that?
If you can send an email outlining what's going on in your life and if she shows interest, what's wrong with that? And if she doesn't? She's just continuing to mother according to her history. It probably won't change.
If you send her a gift....something you spent time finding....something you think is nice......isn't that what good daughters do? And if she doesn't appreciate it......why worry?
If she tells you that you are not a good daughter, you don't have to believe that, do you? And if you give her some good from you to her and she doesn't see it, why would you possibly wish to waste more of your goodness...trying to convince her?
Just my thoughts on it. (((((((Greta)))))))
GFN
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Hey, thanks, Greta for this topic! I just read the whole thread and I appreciate the similarities to my own challenges. I especially enjoyed bunny's advice not to co-sign the B.S. :lol:
I see my mom now about every three weeks (used to be two three times a week) and I am already only taking a few days to debrief, myself, so I'm on my way to success! And my partner has instituted a no contact rule with my mother. So that has indirectly helped decrease my contact - she doesn't visit our home anymore - it's off limits! It's great, actually! And I am feeling more and more confident in myself and my ability to choose contact or not, and my ability to accept the consequences of that (contact - turmoil; no contact - guilt (but less and less guilt)).
Oh yeah, things are lookin' up. Greta, I hope that you can take pride in what great strides you've made in the area of separation! And I hope that serenity descends upon you on her birthday, Mother's Day, etc. no matter what choice you make in terms of contact. I will be thinking of you and wishing you the best.
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Greta:
I remember being a parent to my mother for a long time. She was a very emotionally needy person. I can tell you in my entire married life my parents visited my home TWICE in 20 some odd years. My n brothers visited me TWICE. However I was expected to keep the road hot going back and forth to see them! It was the same with the phone calls. When my child was born I decided that all of that would stop. If they wanted to see ME, wanted to visit, they would have to make some effort. Needless to say the N in them prevented that.
After my mother died, my n father married his mistress of God knows how long. He wanted me to accept this ( this is after he tortured my mother with this relationship) and "let by gones be by gones". I did not speak to him for 8 years except the 2 months before he died. I felt absolutely nothing for him at the funeral. Then the preacher who was doing the funeral had the unmitigated gall to diss me in front of everyone about my relationship with my father. He only had my father's side of what happened and the preacher did not know me at all! It was truly a very bad experience. I have not been back to see my "self absorbed" family much since that time. So I can give you chapter and verse on what "being a bad daughter" is like. Don't believe any of it. Ns will use any excuse to project on to you so you can be the "guilty" one. This way they can get out of any responsibility for their part of the relationship.
Stay away Greta. The longer you are away from the Nness the healthier you become. The healthier you become the more you are able to stand up and take care of yourself. Patz
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Ns will use any excuse to project on to you so you can be the "guilty" one. This way they can get out of any responsibility for their part of the relationship.
Wow! Patz! You say some of the wisest things sometimes! That makes so much sence and really hits home for me. Right on!
GFN
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Yup, I agree with GFN, Patz. You hit the nail on the head with that one. It really makes sense if I apply it to all the N's in my life!
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Ditto from me Patz! That was a really helpful post you wrote;I specially like your observation that if something requires an effort on the part of an N, then they will not do it.
Thanks,
Lara.
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Hi Greta, Patz and all,
My experience has been similar to Patz's. Staying away from my brother completely has been the only way back to emotional health for me. there is just no healthy way to interact. Either I have to kow tow and tip toe on eggshells to keep him 'happy' or I have to fight him constantly to assert my rights.
One of the great blessings from seperation is the ability to think clearly. To see all the subtle manipulations and pathologies that are impossible to see through the haze of being involved in their lives.
Patz wrote,
Then the preacher who was doing the funeral had the unmitigated gall to diss me in front of everyone about my relationship with my father.
Shame, shame and more shame on him! :evil:He should turn in his license! :evil: What kind of a jerk would do that? I'm sorry that you had to go through that, Patz. I hope you don't hold it against God that His 'representative' was such a colossal jackass.
The longer you are away from the Nness the healthier you become.
Amen.
mudpup
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Hello All:
Yeah when I went to the funeral it was in redneckville. The only reason my father went to church at all he thought he could "bargain" with God. I have never seen an individual so scared of death. He sold a very fundamentalist preacher a bill of goods as did his .......uh wife?.......and he swallowed it. When I got to the funeral the preacher "took it" upon himself to "correct" my unforgiveness. Never mind that he probably had a beam an acre wide in his own eye Mudpup!
I did not go to the wake. I just went home. You had to be around my father to believe it. Get a load of this: How would you like to be a little 3-4 year old girl, and you went to the park one day with mummy and daddy. The little girl decides she wants to climb on her daddy's lap. Where upon he slaps her because she is climbing on him and "bothering" him. I can still distinctily remember my mother saying. "Well Jesse, she only is trying to show that she loves you." Oh yes I shed so many tears when he died.
He also threatened to auction all of my mother's belongings off if I did not sign the succession papers to their property after my Mom died. He was a real sweetheart my friends.
The futher you stay away from Nness in your family, the better off you will be and the stronger you will become. You will look back at all the projection that you took "ownership" of and know that you were totally hoodwinked into trying to fix all that crap they dished out. I repeat, (as if you did not already know) stay away from N's. They will suck the very life out of you like vampires. When those little red flags and bells go off when I meet someone, I avoid those individuals like the plague.
Anything I can to help anyone here I will. I have lived through the Nness of my life and I am a survivor. If any illumination through my experiences occurrs and you can grow from it then I am very happy for you. I don't pretend to KNOW all about Ns and I continue to post here because I learn from you as well.
Ns are truly the pimples on the butt of the world.. Patz
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Patz,
The only reason my father went to church at all he thought he could "bargain" with God.
This isn't something to be glad about, but your father has by now learned differently, to his eternal regret.
Never mind that he probably had a beam an acre wide in his own eye Mudpup!
Undoubtedly. His judging you without knowing your side of things constitutes a good sized plank in and of itself.
I wonder if Jesus's teaching on this is the first description of projection?
I'm sorry you had such a bum for a father. But I am glad that you came out of it a good and loving person, unlike your brothers who weren't so fortunate. There but for the grace of God as they say.
God bless you, Patz. :)
mudpuppy
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Mudpup:
Thank you. You have no idea how much I thank God everyday for His loving kindness to me. Without His help, His guidance, and the love of my maternal grandmother, I think I would be a statistic i.e. a prostitute, a drug addict, an early death, jailed.
In my own mind, when things were really, really bad. The realization and magnitude of my now deceased n husbands double life. It was if the Lord were literally bandaging my wounded heart, and helping me to the Table, as in Pslams 23. I think I was truly spoon fed until I was able to get up on my feet. I had many relapses but eventually, with the help of the Holy Spirit I was able to walk around and become a person. I realize that ones convictions and beliefs can derive from different things, but I have to tell you my convictions toward who Jesus Christ is the most central part of my being. Without Him, there is nothing and nothing was made. He has provided for me and my son in the most beautiful and miraculous way. There is nothing I can do to repay for what He has done in my life.
I can only say what is in my heart and this confession is not meant as "as statement of belief" but a statement of living. I do not pretend to "know" what is right or wrong for anyone else, only what is relevant and what has happened to me. For those who post here and have other values and other beliefs, there is no condemnation but only understanding. Much love to everyone, Patz
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Beautiful, Patz. Put a tear in my eye. :cry: + :D
mud
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boy do we have alot in common. i am puzzled with the same questions about being a 'good daughter' because she never recognizes the good things i do, only what i don't do. i have to keep reminding myself it is her not me. please contact me if you would like to help each other on this!
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Just sending all of you light and love, the kind of things you should have had from parents, but had to find for yourself. I am always appalled at the pathetic excuse for love your parents have demonstrated, and the way you have all been able to rebound, knowing deep down, that what you were taught love was, is absolutely untrue. Kudos for forging ahead to make your own definition of it.