Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Bliz on March 17, 2005, 06:07:24 AM
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I probably spelled that wrong.
I recent years I have pondered how being raised in a narcissistic, male centric family effected my femininity and would be interested in hearing the experiences of others.
I am the only female sibling among three boys. I often identified with my father as a child becuase my mother was kind of psycho at times and it scared me to think I may grow up like her. There seemed to be a real pattern going back generations that woman were not valued. I had kind of a crazy aunt and many female relatives who never married and or died young. I always worried about becoming the crazy aunt.
Strking out on my own in life after college I believe I often felt taken advantage of due to my naivety (sp again) and that I was a woman. I think I purposely tried to do things that most woman didnt do. It gave me a feeling of power and control over the situation. I believe I really buried that feminine side because I believed it was weak and unappreciated by the world. Ironically, when in relationshps, I usually gave up all my power and almost always felt the weak one.
In recent years I have made friends with the feminine side and played with being feminine and getting my point across when needed. Of course I am still called a bitch by some, for doing that, but dont take it so seriously now. I have noticed my look has gotten more feminine over time and I have become more comfortable with it and even enjoyed it.
Still woman are not valued in my family so it is a constant struggle. Would enjoy hearing from others on this topic. Male insights would be good too. Like how do you perceive a woman when she is in a power position. Are there times when you can appreciate a strong, yet feminine woman. Are there cetain characteristics you like or dislike about woman in a power position?
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Hi Bliz! First of all I have to comment on:
I probably spelled that wrong.
Nope, you didn't, and even if you did, it wouldn' have mattered. This is one place where you never have to worry about being perfect! So take that fifty-pound backpack off right now! :)
It's pretty funny, but I grew up in an all female family, and I was still not allowed to be feminine. I have had to learn slowly, over the years, that it actually is ok. I didn't learn how to shave my legs and armpits until I was nineteen! And then it was a friend who taught me... (Let me just interject here, you don't have to shave your legs or wear make-up or dresses to be feminine, but for me it was something is was not allowed to do, so for me it spells freedom, even though it may spell oppression for someone else.) I was raised as a tomboy and it took me many years to realise that this was not my own choice, it was something my mother chose for me. These days I wear make-up if I feel like it and I love wearing nice clothes. A few years ago I realised that pink actually suited me! In contrast to the awful shade of light blue that my mother forced me to wear all through my childhood :x .
My mother always roots for the men, is always on the man's side in a conflict, no matter what they have done, and I think she feels deep down that women are inferior, not worth as much as men. Although she claims to be a feminist and is very outspoken and never backs down if she disagrees with a man. The funny thing is that after I started wearing make-up and dressing up, so did she! Mirroring her mirror? A need for the images to match? A need to compete? Anyway I think these people she femininity as being weak and masculinity as being strong, which of course is bs. I can wear a dress and make-up and even have curled my hair and still speak up for my self and what I believe in. Having boundaries and opinions doesn't make me any less of a woman, just as crying and apologising doesn't make me weak. Hope I could help, and glad to hear that you're finding your own femininity, b/c it really is a different thing for everyone. 8)
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Hi Bliz. What do you mean by feminine? I reject most things that make me particularly overly female. I do female type stuff to fit in with society and not look too eccentric.
But being feminine – I don’t know what it is?
E.g. I think high heels are ridiculous and impractical and won’t wear them any more (they’re all about sexual power games and that’s pretty primitive in the boardroom….mind you, I guess most boardrooms are childish and primitive!).
I guess the most feminine thing to do is to bear children. Yep, motherhood is feminine I think! :D Good mothering is also completely powerful. The power to shape the future through your children, that’s about the tops as I see it. :D
I’ve been the victim of sexism because I’m female i.e. paid much less for equivalent work but that’s about the attitudes outside me. Still, I’d be interested to see what others think is meant by ‘feminine’, I’ve wondered about this recently, in connection with the way we use labels. My H said a woman at work was ‘masculine’ and when we talked about what that meant, it boils down to a woman not being sexually attractive, which is pretty banal.
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I think being feminine is being who we are. After all, if you're a woman, then what you are must be feminine, right? As long as you feel that this is your true self and not what someone else or society tells you what to do. I enjoy being "girly", but have friends who have never worn make-up or high heels, but I don't see them as being less feminine, just a different kind of femininity. I think that what we are ultimately robbed of as children of Ns is our true self, and the expression of that self, no matter what form it takes. (Yay, I'm on the board at the same time as someone else! :D )
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Bliz, et al,
I think the definition of femininty is going to be different for each woman despite how the dictionary may define it. I see it more as an internal feeling rather than an outside appearance. I think I can relate well to men in a working situation and always identified more with my father--strong, rather than mother--weak. However, that always created the fear in me of turning out like him and hated when I would hear myself saying things to others that he had said to me.
I don't think of strong, powerful, assertive, etc. as being anti-feminine terms. I love to dress up, be sexy, always wear make-up, and generally be a girl. However, I can appreciate the perspective of men and have some male personality traits. Maybe I just have more testosterone running through my veins. Being feminine to me is a feeling of being female. I think it is the nurturing of children, the stronger need to care for others (don't jump on me here, guys. I know you care, but I think it just doesn't come as naturally.), just a softer personality that for many becomes a need to be cared for and protected by someone stronger. I don't know if that makes any sense, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Brigid
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To me it is an internal feeling. Doesn't have a direct conneciton with bearing children or taking care of people. Ideally, except for the actual birthing, men and women would share the roles of nurturing etc.
To me it is whatever it takes to cherish and nourish my unigueness as a woman. Kind of a "viva la difference" where for many years I tried to hide feminine attributes because I thought it would mean people wouldnt take me seriously.
It was a great revelation to me that I can enjoy, exude my femininity and still be powerful in the boardroom or wherever.
It doesnt mean high heels for me becuae I have never been able to wear them. It does mean my version of wearing make up, doing my hair, being warm to those I meet in daily life, etc. It defintely does not mean being submissive or placating men although it seems some really need it in order to get the job done.
In my profession there arent alot of woman and I am tramping around construction sites sometimes. Now I get a kick out of the reaction from the crew and try to be both feminine and proficient, efficient. I play with it a little as I still am trying to find my balance here.
Unfortunatley in my family, woman seems to equal bad, not as good as, weak, etc. Dont know how they can try to carry this off as both myself and mother are neither. She does vacillate at times trying to occasoinally protect, placate the guys.
I think they are fearing the loss in power at times and maybe their male chauvenist activity is a panic reaction. The whole rebellion of the WASP male.
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I grew up in a woman-dominated family. I STILL had no training in being a woman. I wasn't a tomboy; just a vaguely "femme" girl. A friend taught me how to buy makeup. I couldn't cook until I was in my 30s. Somehow, boyfriends have told me that I'm the most "womanly" girlfriend they've ever dated. They thought I was very feminine. So who knows.
My philosophy now is: I "enjoy being a girl" but really dislike wearing nylons and dresses so I don't. I wear makeup and jewelry. I have a lot of anima (female energy) and use it to my advantage. If a man wants to use his positive male energy to his advantage, that is fine with me. I like it.
IMO boys who were privileged and given preference within a family do not turn out strong and brave. They're usually spoiled brats and their parents did them no favor.
bunny
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I have struggled with feminity because my N Mom had to be the center of all male attention. So when I was cute as a young child she belittled me - as a blossoming teen it got even worse. I've actually felt shame over my curves and have a sneaking suspicion that the extra 15 lbs. I carry has to do with these issues. (Food has always been my comfort.)
I can wear fitted shirts now and feel comfortable - but there is still more healing to be done. I look forward to feeling free with the feminine beauty I have been given. I'd love to be able to go shopping and fit into the appropriate size for my frame and feel sexy. 8)
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Hi again Bliz,
Here's my male perspective, for what its worth.
I personally have zero issues with a woman in a power position versus a man. Usually they both are equally repulsive. :D Power corrupts and all that. :wink:
I have been in court with a woman judge and an arbitration with a woman arbitrator. The legal action I'm in right now has a woman judge and a woman under her managing it. They all have been good and fair. It makes no difference to me.
Are there times when you can appreciate a strong, yet feminine woman.
My wife is the strongest, most centered, down to earth person I know. She is also very feminine. She is small and trim and very very pretty and soft spoken. Our whole house is full of bunny rabbits and doilies and flowery stuff everywhere you turn. When I make the bed I have to top it off with two dolls and three stuffed rabbits on a rose festooned comforter. :roll: :roll: But she tolerates no stupidity from man nor beast if it threatens her family or well being. And I love her more for it. That is one of the things that attracted me in the first place.
Are there cetain characteristics you like or dislike about woman in a power position?
I must confess I have always gotten along with women better than men. I think because I never played the oneupmanship men are always doing amongst themselves. It always seemed pretty insecure to me. I never get that with women. My men friends are all secure non boastful types. I guess I like the charecteristics everyone does, whether a power position or not, sincerity and fairness.
In my experience men who can't handle women in a power position, as you put it, are insecure. Men who can aren't. Simple as that.
I won't attempt to define femininity. I'll probably get myself in trouble. :)
mudpuppy
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This is all good stuff and I really enjoy hearing it.
The mother jealousy issue. I forgot that was a real problem when I was younger. I always thought my mother was beautiful in ways I would never be. We are both short and petite but she was blonde with an even smaller frame than myself. She is much more into all things feminine than I am. I like to dress up now but didnt for years. But she has the manicure and the whole nine yards. I guess I have my hands into too many things. The painted nails bug me.
Thanks also for the male perspective. Nice to get one a little healthier than my own family which seems mostly into domination and one upmanship of each other and woman. so sad.
My goal is to be comfortable and feel that feminine glow no matter what I am wearing or the circumstances. This doesnt mean giving up my power. I really have to watch it in relationships because as strong and independent as I am, I must be conditioned on some leve,l that I still have to subjugate my feelings, issues, prioritites to the man. Not too healthy but I am working on it.
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When I was little my dad told me that my mum was 'highly strung' and my grandma suffered from 'nerves'. The subtext was that women are insane, and to be sane you have to be male, and follow the male role models, not the female ones. .
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Your post saddened me becuase I could see alot of my own upbringing. It took so long to feel good about myself and that it was okay to cry and express emotions and be feminine . I will never foget the lecture I got when my folks realized I was on birth control at 19. Never mind that I got out of high school a virgin, which I am sure was rare, and did have high morals. They basically gave me the cow/milk story and I felt like a slut after that.
It is so sad the marks words and actions leave on us as children.
I am worried for my nieces tonight and maybe I should put it on another thread but will start here and see how it goes. I took them to dinner which was somewhat insignificant except for me once again realzaing how quickly they change in a couple of weeks time. It becomes more claer that the older two, 13 and 15 are teenagers and we adults just arent cool. I long for the day which wasnt that long agao when the older ones too lseemed happy just to tag along.
WHat really saddened me was they fought over that darn front seat all the way up and back. You may remember their father storming out of the car last week when we picked him up and I was already sitting up front. This is something my brothers have fought over since I can remember. It is so insane and now their children are doing it. I am sure this is just a glimpse of the highly competitive and critical way they are all the time. Maybe it is normal but it scared and saddened me.
The oldest niece hit the 9 year old over it and it just broke my heart. Are these girls going to be narcissists too? Even if that is true, there is nothing I can do about it, which makes me even sadder. I worry they will have all or some of the problems I have had growing up nar. I know I cant protect them but I had to share my sadness.
In the melee I let it slip that their Dad got mad at me over the same issues. I wish I hadnt said a thing and hope nobody repeats it. Is this all so crazy or what?
Since reading up on narcissim and this site it is almost like I know too much. I can see how I walk on eggshells with people including and especially the nar brother. I have alwasy tried to avoid that around any of my family and others but I am seeing more clearly how it happens along with the triangulating and other dysfuncitonal patterns. I guess knowledge is power but right now I feel a little overwhelmed and saddened.
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Bliz,
I know how it feels to worry about nieces (and nephews). It's really frustrating and sad.
One question, were the girls fighting in a really mean way, or were they just being obnoxious? A lot of teenagers and their younger siblings will hit and bully each other. It's not necessarily abnormal. I can't tell how ugly the situation was, and whether the younger one was being seriously abused or not. You are allowed to say things to your nieces or their parents if you don't like their behavior. I would pick my battles, yes, but sometimes you can speak up.
The fighting over the front seat is truly ludicrous and immature. I'm sorry that your brothers never got past being such brats.
bunny
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Hi Bunny,
I thought it was pretty mean spirited, not the usual bickering. I am used to that. In that way they were pretty quiet. I was a few steps back from the car as they were waitig for me to unlock it. Next thing I hear is the nine year old screaming pretty loud and the 15 year old obviously extremely mad.
I have seen her anger before. SHe is psssively quiet most of the time and then it comes out. She is on strattera (sp), not that it matters, but the side effect was she lost a lot of weight. She was a pudgy, somewhat sweet little girl and in a few months time she became very thin and into all the usual teenage things. NOt that it is bad, but it concerns me it came from a pill.
I know her Dad who is all about externals and perfection was constantly concerned about her weight and not too subtle about it. The 13 year old is wound tighter than a drum, very good in school and in many other activites and I worry about her too. Her tolerance for mistakes, imperfections in herself and others is so low. I realize there is nothing I can do but be there as an aunt.
Part of it scares me because of the things I want through, alcoholism, eating and weight issues, the whole growing up Nar thing, losing my power and voice. I guess like a parent I want to protect them and cant. I just want them to be happy and well adjusted. I hope I am a good role model in that way. That you dont have to be pefect and drive the perfect car, wear the perfect clothes, have the perfect husband or bf or life, to be happy.
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What an interesting thread.... It is bringing up a lot of stuff for me...
I seem to have had the same upbringing as many did here, where girls were somehow less valued, or evaluated on a different scale. Sort of-- glad you got the A, graduated from grad school, won the race, but why don't you lose 5 more pounds? Even now, pregnant, my mother quizzes me about how much weight I've gained (so that she can disapprove of whatever the number is). It is a primary obsession.
I am successful at work, which like everywhere is male-dominated, but so much of the bs sexism stuff does eat at me. It's a lot of the same stuff as in my family, so it pushes buttons-- women are too emotional, women aren't scientific/good at math, the important thing about women is how they look. On the surface, especially when I was younger, you would never have known that this bothered me-- I was cutesy, often sexy, and used all of that to my advantage. But you pay a price for that kind of capitulation. Or is it capitulation? Sometimes it was fun...
But have any of you women ever noticed how much more the appearence of women is commented on at work (compared to men)? Have you ever had the experience that you're talking about something important at work and the man you are talking to interrupts you to complement your hair or outfit? It happens all of the time, even in meetings (!) and it's clear what the message is.
In the end it leaves me pretty conflicted, deep down, about all of this stuff. To give into femininity whole-hog without in the back of my mind knowing I am "playing a role" is really tough for me because it feels like giving into my family, to the sexist mores at work, and just to that basic idea of feminine meaning not-strong, not worthy of sitting at the big table.
this is really big stuff; thanks for bringing it up. There is no question the stereotype (feminine = not to be taken seriously) exists, and it is definitely something N men (and women) use against women.
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Bliz,
She is on strattera (sp), not that it matters, but the side effect was she lost a lot of weight. She was a pudgy, somewhat sweet little girl and in a few months time she became very thin and into all the usual teenage things. NOt that it is bad, but it concerns me it came from a pill.
I would have concerns about other things than the medication. My son is ADHD and has been on meds since age 5 (he's 20 now). Strattera is a new medication for this condition that is not a stimulent, controlled drug like all the others that have previously been used, i.e., ritalen, dexadrine, etc. Since my son has been on Strattera, his appetite has no longer been affected by taking meds and he eats all the time. When using the previous stimulent drugs he definitely had diminished appetite, esp. in the middle of the day.
Based on other dysfunctions in the family, perhaps she should be evaluated for an eating disorder or at least be carefully monitored to see what her eating habits are. At the very least, the parents should contact her primary care physician or whoever is providing the script and discuss her drastic weight loss. She's at that age where girls are so concerned about their looks and wanting to fit in, that they are very prone to finding unhealthy ways to make that happen.
Just thought I would pass that along.
Brigid
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But have any of you women ever noticed how much more the appearence of women is commented on at work (compared to men)? Have you ever had the experience that you're talking about something important at work and the man you are talking to interrupts you to complement your hair or outfit? It happens all of the time, even in meetings (!) and it's clear what the message is.
[Not where I work. The men's appearance is constantly the topic of conversation. The only man who complimented me was from a Latin country, so if he didn't, I must be as hideous as a witch. In my workplace there are strict rules about sexual harassment. People are pretty uptight about complimenting each other for that reason.]
But to get back to playing a role -- here's my philosophy -- everyone plays roles including the men. They have to play the parts that their parents scripted, or that society scripted. Life is a stage and all that. I think if we know and like ourselves, we can play certain roles at certain times and not feel deeply conflicted about it. We know we're doing it for our own advancement, or job security, or to get something done. It's not for our parents' satisfaction anymore. It's for survival in this particular social setting. As long as we can shed the masks later and let our hair down with safe people. For me wearing the mask is just something one has to do in life. I accept it. And the mask is a part of me. I'm not totally faking it. It's just not a part I like to play most of the time.
bunny
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Thanks everyone for your deeply felt comments on these issues. It has taken me quite some time to mesh the different and at times dissonant messages.
I agree there is role playing on everyone's part regarding male/female in the workplace. It is only recently I realized I could be both feminine and powerful. Sometiems I actually play with that whole thing. For instance on the construction sites. It still is a stuggle for self esteem at times especialy with the contineud message from family that woman are not as valued.
Reagrding my nieces eating habits, it's just not my place unfortuatnley to comment to her parents on this. I do not see a health issue at this time but there could be one later. Mostly I hate the message that she is more valued for her appearance than anything. I jsut rememebr how painful this was for me and how many years it took and is still taking to sort it all out.
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Bliz,
I can relate to the sadness and helplessness here. You're doing the right thing by role modeling an adult who doesn't have to be perfect. It's possible that they will be influenced by you. I'm trying to do the same thing with niece/nephew who have two dysfunctional parents. I doubt if I'll save them but maybe I can mitigate it a little.
bunny
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Hey, Bliz: are we related? Because except for the medication, you could be describing my daughter (your niece). Body changes, weight loss are perfectly normal at this age. Losing baby fat and changing shape are all normal. I know medication is a concern, but kids not on meds do exactly the same thing.
My ex would make comments about my daughter's apparent "pudginess" for a few years...I was adamant at drilling into his thick skull that he should NEVER comment on that to her, that this is normal, etc for her age, I even sent him papers out of medical texts to shut him up. However, it was clear to my daughter that dad didn't approve....but she had me to vent to and go for acceptance. Now things have changed again and she is taller, thinner and looking like a grown woman. I notice boys and young men look at her. Now my ex is all freaked out that she looks like a woman! HE will never be happy with his children.
As far as the not thinking adults are cool, or certainly not wanting to cuddle like a little kid, this is also very normal. Behavoir changes, trying on attitudes are all part of it. It is the teenager's job to become autonomous. Absolutely essential to survival and growing up. As long as they know they CAN get a hug when THEY want, or can have a safe place to act babyish at times, that behavoir is perfectly normal and expected. A great book on teenagers is by John Wolf> called "Get Out of MY Life, but first will you drive me and Cheryl to the Mall?" the title sums it up. The book is great for anyone who has a teenager in their life!
My daughter is also wound rather tightly, straight A student, very active in other activities, teachers think she's great, etc. I do believe her perfectionism may be in part to walking on eggshells around a very N dad, but it's also her nature. She has recently started trying out different "looks", different friends, all within normal. I keep my eye out, put my foot down on occassion, but she needs to do this, with safe back up (me).
Don't take it personally when she rejects you. You are an adult, therefore not too cool. The "closer" she felt to you in the past, the more rejection you will get.....so be complimented! This doesn;t mean they get to treat you like crap...."I don't appreciate that comment" is perfectly acceptable....but asking them to be cute and little again is just pointless.
She will respect you, but don't expect it to be the way it was. In a few years, you'll be the cool aunt again. Lucky kid.
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Hi mum,
HE will never be happy with his children.
He will never be happy, period. If your daughter can understand that she'll know where his 'junk' comes from. Hopefully she already does.
mudpuppy
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Feminine:
Characterized by or possessing qualities generally attributed to a woman.
yourdictionary.com
I agree with Portia then, what are the characterisitcs and qualitities generally attributed to a woman?
I don't know what those are, other than obvious physical characteristics.
No wonder I have a hard time with this one. :D
I like certain things (like bunnies and frilly stuff and pink, more so purple, make up, dresses, etc, sometimes...........oooooooh.....I also like bull dozers and fishing and my water saw and driving tractors and building stuff etc.). Those are my likes though, not characteristics or qualities.
So now I really am confused. :? I need a list of feminine qualities and characteristics and then I'll need to see if I possess those or not, to clear this up.
GFN
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GFN,
Your likes indicate you are what my daughter calls a Tom Girl or half a Tom Boy. That's what she claims to be anyway. She's also a purple lover along with my wife.
My wife on the other hand is all girl, she makes fun of the way I rubber neck at every big yellow machine I see. She has an alarming blind spot where heavy equipment is concerned, but I love her just the same. :)
But the bunnies, the bunnies.... oh my gosh the bunnies. They're everywhere. They watch me when I eat. They watch me when I sleep. They're even in the bathroom. :shock: Stuffed ones, porcelain ones, stone ones, wooden ones.
Actually now that I think about it I got her quite a few of them myself so I guess I oughta button my lip. It just seems like they multiplied. :?
And to her credit she has asked everyone to NOT get her any more bunnies. Something about having to dust them all. :roll:
mudpup
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Maybe there is being a woman which includes being aware of one's anima and animus in one integrated person (female and male energies). And there is being feminine which is more about expressing one's anima at that moment. And one can be womanly and feminine at the same time.
bunny
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Hi everyone:
Mudpuppy: I see energizer bunnies chasing you around all over the place!!! They just won't quit!! Poor, Poor Mudpuppy!! Why on earth did you buy so many for her???
Your likes indicate you are what my daughter calls a Tom Girl or half a Tom Boy.
See I don't see it that way. I see what I like as what I like, not what I like as what I am.
I love to sew. I paint pretty things. I make lovely mosaics. I love stuff that sparkles. Fiddling with flowers and plants. So what? Does that make me feminine?
I'm still confused.
I love digging gardens and trenches with a good excavator machine, in the hot sun or better yet......moving piles of gravel and sand!!!
I like the smell of diesel exhaust and especially that coal smell off antique steam engines and the heat they generate and the power!
I can even suck back a smoked turkey leg and chug a large draft beer but that doesn't make me masculine, does it?
Are you saying male/female is defined by likes and dislikes?
OH......I'm in bigggggggg trubbbbbble!!! A feminine-mascule!!! :D :shock:
I think the media has convinced us of some of this. I don't buy it.
I like what I like and I am very feminine or not so feminine, depending on who is deciding.
I still want a list of what that is--what qualities and characteristics (other than physical because I think I have that part memorized) make one feminine and.....come to think of it..... who gets to write the list? :shock:
GFN
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GFN,
I see what I like as what I like, not what I like as what I am.
Well my daughter is twelve so I'm not sure you should take her definition as the last word on the subject. :)
However, what you like also is what you do. So maybe what we do is what we are, if we are doing it for genuine reasons.
Are you saying male/female is defined by likes and dislikes?
No, but maybe our likes/dislikes are defined by male/female. I seem to remember some studies done on toddlers who had purposely been sheltered from gender influences and the little boys still went for the guns and trucks while the girls gravitated to the dolls and tea sets.
Who knows? I think it was Potter Stewart who, when asked what obscenity was, said he couldn't define it but "I know it when I see it". Thats my stance on femininity.
Maybe femininity isn't definable. Maybe its one of those mysteries of life we shouldn't think too much about, but just enjoy. :D
Why on earth did you buy so many for her???
Because she likes them, and I like her to have what she likes. I actually made her one out of soapstone as well. However I only bought her a fraction of her collection. Most came from friends and family. I don't recall her ever asking anyone for a rabbit, they just kind of showed up. Anyway the population explosion is over, so we're safe. Rabbits are a lot cheaper than what I have a habit of collecting anyway, so who am I to complain? :roll:
mud
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Hi Mum,
Thanks for this upper.
"Don't take it personally when she rejects you. You are an adult, therefore not too cool. The "closer" she felt to you in the past, the more rejection you will get.....so be complimented!"
Not having my own kids you can see how totally at sea I am. You guys are really helping.
I hope you are right about the perfectionism and it dosent drive the one into the ground.
WHew!! I can really feel the angst of the parents as they go thorugh these stages. I know my Mom got her craziest when I wa a teen, young adult. She kept saying I was changing and wasnt the sweet, (read submissive) girl I used to be. It made me feel like crap than bu,t now I think I understand it from both sides.
It is so great to talk about all these growing up and feeling feminine issues. Especially finding out I am not alone.
What is this anima/animus thing?
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Anima and animus are like yin-yang. The model of male and female energies. Male energy is more about action, getting stuff done, accomplishing things, doing. Female energy is more about imagining, creativity, feeling. We all have both energies but obviously men are have more dominant male energy and females more dominant female energy (for the most part).
bunny
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Thanks for clearing that up. I would say I have more of the male energy than the typical female. Maybe that is part of my dilemna.
When younger I alwasy dreamed of having the "great adventure" and doing exciting things, traveling all over the place by myself etc. I always loved, "exploring" outside in the woods, creeks, river banks, etc. I love a good hunt for things like artifacts. I still do all of these things and still love it.
I often felt more indentificaiton with male things like that. I did and still do rebel at being demure, waiting for things to happen to you, having a ton of patience with things. Just babbling here and trying to figure out if this is a direct reaction to being raised where women were not valued or just things I like.
I have never been good or even able to "play games" or be coy in a relationshp. This has been a greart disadvantage to me as I would probably be too honest and forthcoming. Dont know. Also just a real possiblity I picked the wrong guys. It would seem to me in many of my relationshps with men they were drawn to my independence and adventure and then would slowly try to take it all away from me. Now maybe that is just a being attracted to Nars thing.
Dont know. But still struggle with that balance between being feminime and still the me that is sort of a tom boy and guy's guy or something lke that. I am not unattractive or masculine in appearance. Actualy very petite and "nice looking", so I am told. Just trying to bring it all together to a me that is comfortable with the animus and anima. Help!!
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Hi Mudpuppy and all:
So maybe what we do is what we are...
Then I am feminine slash masculine according to that definition (or masculine slash feminine--depending on the day or time of day).
...maybe our likes/dislikes are defined by male/female.
So the female in me has certain likes and the male in me has certain likes..by that definition, depending on the day or time of day.
Why do I suddenly feel like I should be having a gender identity crisis?
Maybe femininity isn't definable. Maybe its one of those mysteries of life we shouldn't think too much about, but just enjoy.
Whew !!! Maybe you're right. Or maybe it's being defined for us??? Maybe it's not so black and white, cut and dry???
Why on earth did you buy so many for her???
Because she likes them, and I like her to have what she likes. I actually made her one out of soapstone as well.
Awwww....that's very nice. I bet she treasure something you took such care and time to make for her. I love gifts like that!!! They mean so much (heart icon needed immediately).
Well.....I'm not going to worry about how masculine or feminine my likes and dislikes are, or how feminine or masculine what I do is.....because I know I'm just not characteristic.....so maybe that's a good thing. At least I'm not boring.
To apply this to the original question of this thread.....I think the fact that I am possibly rebellious about it all, or I've just ignored the unwritten rules about what I am supposed to like/do to be considered feminine, does come partially from seeking happiness in my own life, in my own way, because so much was stifled/controlled/disallowed/etc during my childhood.
On the other hand.....a lot of the time... I just think we're all people and entitled to have whatever likes or dislikes we want and that wanting or enjoying certain gender-identified-specific activities....neither makes us one thing or another. It is simply an example of our beauty and uniqueness as individual human beings and an expression of our real selves. But I do realize that the majority rules.
Enjoy your evening.
GFN
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On the other hand.....a lot of the time... I just think we're all people and entitled to have whatever likes or dislikes we want and that wanting or enjoying certain gender-identified-specific activities....neither makes us one thing or another. It is simply an example of our beauty and uniqueness as individual human beings and an expression of our real selves.
C'est la vie.
Or maybe joie de vivre, is better. :D :wink:
mud
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Then there's the "shadow" (negative) side of the yin/yang. That's when the male energy is about aggression, hostility, violence. When the female energy is about manipulation, subtle cruelty, and sabotaging.
The female energy is more about qualities of feeling, creation, receptivity. The male energy is more about qualities of action, directness, accomplishment. The person can use this energy positively or negatively. Hopefully we choose the positive.
If you are a woman who has more animus, that is okay. You just need a man who appreciates it.
bunny
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I think I get it. Thanks Bunny.
I guess it is listening to all those labels. Women should be this way and men that way. The constant comparison with my mother when I was younger didnt help. We are so different physically and our likes and dislike as far as girly things. I absolutely hate to shop for example. She was much more the classic beauty and lover of all the trappings I can't get my mind and heart around.
I said to her recently in a loving way, that I just am not the daughter she thought she would have as far as common interests. On the other hand she is very physically active and good at sports. We share that.
I do NOW understand that it is okay to be different and like things that aren't typically feminine and vice versa. I guess shutting off the criticism is the answer.
I very much enjoy the power that seems to be on this board to dig deeply into these issues and come on with different creative answers.
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Hi all,
I don't know if this is of interest to anyone, but I just counted fifty nine rabbits, bunnies and hares in our living room, dining room and kitchen alone! :shock: And I gave her more of them than I thought I had.
Then it dawned on me. I have a painting of two chickadees cuddling on a branch above a snowshoe hare that I was planning on painting for my wife as well.
Obviously it is my fault not hers if I feel like I'm being watched by wascally wabbits at all times. :oops: Come to think of it Bugs Bunny is my favorite cartoon character. I have been projecting all this time. I'm the one with the bunny problem. :oops: :shock:
Bliz wrote,
When younger I alwasy dreamed of having the "great adventure" and doing exciting things, traveling all over the place by myself etc. I always loved, "exploring" outside in the woods, creeks, river banks, etc. I love a good hunt for things like artifacts. I still do all of these things and still love it.
Are those masculine things?
waiting for things to happen to you, having a ton of patience with things.
Are those feminine things?
Bliz, I confess crunching a beer can on your forehead or a good long belch I don't consider too appealing in a woman (or a man for that matter, although I'm pretty good at the latter), but exploring, adventures and hunting for artifacts seem like they are perfectly feminine to me. They seem gender neutral.
Likewise I know plenty of men who sit around waiting for things to happen to them and plenty of women who have about as much patience as a rattlesnake that forgot to pack his lunch. So maybe femininity is in the eye of the beholder?
This thread has made me think about a lot of stuff I had never given much thought to. I stick with what I said before, femininity and masculinity are basically mysteries to me. If you like who you are then tough maracas for what somebody else thinks is feminine or masculine. :wink:
mudpuppy
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Well, I've been reading this thread and thinking about it for a while, and I don't think the this abuse has really affected my femininity. :)
If there's a silver lining to my experiences with an emotionally neglectful mother and a verbally and emoptionally abusive wife, its that I don't buy that "women are more nurturing than men" crap. Women are people and men are people. Most are good, some are not, and some are really NOT! People can be nurturing, stong, protective, loving, supportive, etc. regardless of their gender.
I do understand the question at the start of this thread. But, I would rephrase it as "Have I lost anything that's important to me that I can't get back?"
I'm actually in a good mood today, but its hard to see in this grouchy EMail. :)
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I agree with you the exploring, the great adventure, etc., are not inately male or female charactertistics. I think it is all the negative feedback I have received and that I am considered "different" from most of my family for a variety of reasons. The same with most of my friends. I am not living in the most evolved part of the country so maybe that has something to do with it.
I am starting to get questions from the nieces on why I am not married, why I live alone in a big, (not that big) house. The five year old is really having a hard time with it and for awhile thought I was her other Mommy. That is kind of cute.
I remember when I traveled out west when I was younger, by myself. People didnt get it. Part of me likes the uniqueness and part of me just wants to blend in sometimes. I know also that the vanilla mundane life is not for me anyway, so why am I complaining? Just questioning and enjoying getting other peoples feedback.
Maybe it is just the Nar family ability to latch on to anything different and make it bad.
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I am starting to get questions from the nieces on why I am not married, why I live alone in a big, (not that big) house. The five year old is really having a hard time with it and for awhile thought I was her other Mommy. That is kind of cute.
Children don't understand adults being childless. That is their way and doesn't mean you are wierd. My niece used to ask me why I had breasts since there was no baby. My answer was, "What if a baby suddenly came? I'd need them." This satisfied her. And she asked whether my husband and I were married, or whether he was just a friend of mine. I said we were married. She didn't see the point of our marriage but that was okay. She also calls me mommy by accident. I think it's because her actual mother is a b---- and I'm nicer. :P
If people think you're different, that's their prerogative. Maybe they're envious.
bunny
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Bliz,
Maybe it is just the Nar family ability to latch on to anything different and make it bad.
Now I think we're getting somewhere. All societies of course try to pound down the people who poke their heads up. That's universal human nature. But Ns, at least the ones I've observed, go hog wild with it. And why not. Its the perfect way to isolate or ostracise someone to compel them to conform, not to society, but to the Ns weird little world.
I'm the only Christian in my immediate family. My brother constantly uses that as a method to isolate me, or to make some false accusation then point at me and yell hypocrite.
For you its not meeting some family 'norm' of femininity. If you looked and acted like Little Bo Peep, they'd ride you for some other 'flaw'. Probably for being too feminine. :roll:
Too bad you can't tell your nieces, 'I'm not married because I can't stand the thought of getting hitched to a psychopathic idiot like your father!' :evil:
mud
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Mudpup,
You are so right AND you are cracking me up....
"now we are getting someplace."
I am hoping so. My ramblings are starting to sound Narlike to me. Yikes there everywhere, including me.
It's not just fitting their weird world as far as femininty, although I think that is a big part of it. you are right, they find something else if that particular item is put to rest in their tiny minds.
The older nieces do also seem puzzled by me being alone. I do date and have dated so I am not the old maid in the house full of cats yet. Don't like cats anyway. BUt sometimes I feel like I am being punished because the reconnect with the Nar boyfriend didnt work out.
They didnt even like him that much, but maybe on some level it finally put me in that category of "Bliz with man". A category they could latch on to and fit into their world. I am talking about the kids now. I do want them to see that you dont have to have a man to be happy and successful.
Okay, sort of different topic on this subject. I just realized that of the generation of women before me, my Mom, her sister and my Dad's two sisters, everyone but my Mom was either dead or committed by the age of 53. That just blew me away.
An aunt on each side died of breast cancer and the other sister of Dad, probably an alcoholic, fell down the steps and was in a nursing home from 52-62 when she died. WOW. I cant imagine that. I am in my early 50's and many ways feel like I am just hitting my pace. Can't imagine folding it up that early.
Also feel tonight that being a woman is this family must be like being an endangered species. At least on Dad's side, wonder how much it had to do with the poor treatment of the women and of course the raising of the men to godlike status? I know it bothered both his sisters. One broke free and made it only to die young. THe other one fell down the steps.
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Bliz,
My ramblings are starting to sound Narlike to me. Yikes there everywhere, including me.
Rubbish. They're not ramblings, they're not Narlike and they're not everywhere. They're just you telling us your story. Good for you, and thanks.
As far as the generation before you, don't get drunk, especially upstairs, do get your mammograms and breast exams and see if you can severly limit your exposure to the N lunacy in your family. That should take care of all your risk factors and lead to a happy, healthy, long life. There I just solved all your problems. :wink:
Too bad its never that easy, huh? :?
mud
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Thanks for assuring me on the ramblings.
I have always thought it was so sad that the two aunts died young. I didnt fear that I would die young, but thought it was tragic for them and their families. I never put it all together with the aunt that went to the nursing home at 52 until yesterday. I also think the loss to the family of the female role models was tragic.
I have heard stories of how my father's Dad treated the sisters and it so much could have been my life. THe oldest daughter did try to branch out and get away to college, which wasnt real common for women in those days. Her father yanked her out when he found out she was drinking and smoking cigarettes. Hey, it is college. Then he wouldnt let the younger one go becuase of the behavior of the older one. Now that makes no sense at all. How damning to the younger sister for something beyond her control.
Her life ws the most tragic. She kind of gave up on life when her high school boyfriend came back from the service and didnt marry her. I figure there was probably more to this story. Like they had premarital sex and then she felt damaged. That would be so our family. It was the 1940's now. I dont remember her dating at all when I was a kid or later.
She was tall, fashionable and very attractive. She lived at home with her mother unitl she fell down the steps. WHen I found out at 19 that I was an alcoholic, I did dread/fear I would turn into her. I put that to rest in my mind a few years ago.
The older one was much more free spirited. She married a psychiatrist, which we all found fascinating as children. She had the good life, a child, etc. It was quite a shock when she found a lump and died six months later.
Both of these sisters had a lot of spirit at one time, did well in school, very sociable, fun. I think what I am concetrating on now is how their spirit got squashed by the family. At least in the younger sister, I believe that is what happened. It may have been a fluck with the older one. I wish they were here today as they would have made excellent grande dames. I thought my Mom was so psycho growing up, if I had to indentify with a family woman it would have been them.