Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: jondo on March 20, 2005, 04:52:57 PM
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I come from a family of extreme N's. So affected are they that most think they are just unique and of strong character - that's why they feel so "different" from others. They are agressive and anything said in opposition is grounds for a fist fight. I have largely separated from most of them however there's still a few that I for some reason, still am compelled to maintain an unhealthy relationship. I suppose it's out of fear because that's all I feel. It's easier to just continue in that sick subservient dynamic than to face their agressive wrath. It's the one thing I haven't managed to do yet in my healing - effectively voice myself and remove their domination. They need to be dominant in the relationship and I am basically just there to serve their needs. That is always the case with N's however when they are so agressive and potentially violent then it makes it much harder. Does anyone have the experience of shedding or changing a relationship like this? With funerals and wedding ocassions, it's really a difficult thing to do.
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Jondo--
Do you have a therapist? This sounds impossible to do alone.
Also, if you are willing, could you share an example of the violence? I assume it's physical violence?
This seems really serious. We will do all we can to help you work through it.
hang in there,
vunil
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You cannot pick your family but you sure the hell can pick how much of their chit you are gonna take. I would rather be without family then to have people who treat me like a whipped dog.
As far as a therapist goes, IIIIIIII am not so sure that everyone needs a therapist to deal with crisis. I think you know that the circumstances surrounding your family is abnormal. If not you wouldnt be posting about their actions. You just have to decide how you want and expect to be treated by others, including your family. If they choose not to treat you in the manner that you feel you deserve, you know the answer then. Run, run, and run and dont look back.
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Thank Vunil,
well, I suppose I'm referring only to one cousin who is more agressive than the others. He doesn't realize it however he is the angriest person one could ever meet. Probably been in 500 fights in his life of 38 yrs and is quite proud of it. I've known him since birth and I know where this comes from - like I, he was completely without voice as his parents were alcoholics and unfit parents allround. I was like him to a degree until I began to understand the reasons for why a person is so. By the way, I've been in therapy and yes it got me this far. I really only have this one difficult relationship left. He controls everything around him. He doesn't realize that he utilizes intimidation in his communication - he thinks that is how a person becomes successful - making things happen. This is elementary stuff as far as N symptoms. We have fought before and it is when he was drinking. He is angriest during and after drinking, which is several times a week. I had a telephone conversation with him a couple of days ago and I ended up hanging up on him because his anger is frightening. He was a loaded powder keg, like usual, waiting to take any comment personally and then the confrontational challenges begin. He epitomizes all that I was subjected to from my N mothers behavior. We'll see each other soon at a funeral and I know he'll be seething for a confrontation. He knows that I have changed and he is just waiting for me to dare to change my relationship with him. For some reason I am an easy target for his anger at his own parents - which I don't think he sees.
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Is there a particular reason you have to interact with this cousin at all? Wondering if you can just not deal with him. Is there something that ties you together that makes that impossible?
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I know - that sounds so obvious of a solution - no contact. We've been staying in touch for years and I'd like to withdraw from that because I get nothing from it. It's usually to just validate whatever he's doing/saying - you know how N's are, it's always about them. He's very troubled and angry and he's accustomed to having me validate him. Whenever I appear to have moved past something, such as with my obvious improved mental and emotional state, it's like he takes that as an attack or statement that he's inadequate or faulty in some way. Which if I was able to be honest with him - he certainly is. I suppose the frustration I'm feeling is that as an N victim, I'm used to meeting others needs. However now I know how wrong it is to continue feeding him and it's driving me crazy. I just can't seem to stand up to his degree of anger. I guess there's no real solution to this other than to just avoid any contact whatsoever and hope he leaves me alone.
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jondo,
This cousin sounds extremely unstable and volatile. And unfortunately he appears to be very dependent on you. But it isn't your job to prop up this guy or be his garbage container. You will never change him or fix this situation. Avoidance and becoming dull/boring are your best bets.
The website below focuses on romantic relationships but it applies to anyone who needs to distance themselves from a disturbed person:
www.drjoecarver.com (read the article called "Identifying Losers in Relationships")
bunny
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Hi Jondo: First of all: Congratulations to getting all those other narcs out of your life! But this cousin sounds scary... Just wondering if maybe you found it hard to cut him out of your life b/c you used to be the same? Because you had the same bad experiences and you feel empathy for him b/c you know what it's like? Because you have managed to turn yourself around and hope against hope that he will too? Just asking. Hope you manage to get away from him by whatever way and means, and know that you are way 8) for coming this far...
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Jondo, don’t stand up to his anger, you don’t have to. Just let it ride past you and walk away. Or stand there and look completely blank, don’t respond. Standing up to his anger might be encouraging him more?
Hiya Jaded911, :D I love your posts.
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Jondo:
I have found it helpful that when an N is off the hook like this cousin, do not respond. The fact that you are getting healthier is an extreme threat to him. You are no longer mirroring the image he likes to see....no N supply from you. Unfortunately I had an N experience at my late father's funeral as well. It seems that if any "underlying" issues are going to come out in a family it is either at a funeral or at a wedding.
Patz
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Sleepyhead, Patz thanks. No, I don't have empathy for him because I was like him and now I hope he changes. That's not it. I truly want nothing to do with him. My wife dislikes him, from the two ocassions they've met and spoken. You know the unspoken contract that an N looks for. The first time he and my wife spoke, he was looking to be held in high regard and superior to her and for her to "respect" him. She's from a normal background and she was mortified to learn that people like this even exist. Patz your words resonate completely with me. That is it. That is what drives him.
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Jondo, is there any way that you can arrange to arrive slightly later at the funeral, avoid the viewing if there is one, just step into the back for the service to pay your respects and then leave when the service ends? Only if this feels appropriate to you. It isn't running, it's a way of paying your respects to your dead without allowing the living jerk to interfere in that process.
You may have to separate yourself from some family members to do this... by not being available for transportation if they ask (that is a classic narcissist trick for trapping and controlling people. Offer them a ride or ask for one, which ties you to them with yet another obligation.)
Recovering co-dependents learn this dance fast. I hope the moral support helps, even if the idea isn't of use to you. Best wishes
Visiter
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That's a great suggestion thanks. In fact, that is how we'll attend this funeral. My wife can't believe that we have to "look out" for this powder keg however she's starting to understand the N world after a year of marriage to me and learning the family dance that you refer.
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Jondo,
My wife dislikes him, from the two ocassions they've met and spoken. You know the unspoken contract that an N looks for. The first time he and my wife spoke, he was looking to be held in high regard and superior to her and for her to "respect" him. She's from a normal background and she was mortified to learn that people like this even exist.
I know the feeling. From the first time my wife met my brother she considered him weird, even though he was on, what for him, is his best behavior. During an argument some time later I let slip that my wife thought he was weird. He barely spoke to her after that, I think because, in a strange way, he respected her more than he was angry with her. Or maybe he was just afraid a third party opinion from outside the blood family would harm his facade of superiority.
If this cousin is truly violent do you not have any legal recourse? Violent nutjobs are not just a threat to you, but potentially your wife and kids as well, if you have any. Maybe a little time in the hoosegow would convince him to find someone else to vent on. Or do you think it might make him zero in on you even more?
mudpup
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If I told him that my wife thought he was weird he would seethe until we met again and then stand in front of our faces and dare us (her) to repeat it. And regardless of what happened next - he would punch me in the face. You are absolutley right - he needs to go to jail. Maybe in there he would have the courage to face his anger instead of drinking and unleashing his anger on others (I think this is why alot of people are in jail)
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Jondo:
I think the suggestion on how to attend the funeral is and excellent one by Visitor. Just pay your respects and then get out of there. I did not have the luxury of the is board when I attended my father's funeral and walked right into a "n trap". Was not a nice experience at all. Just figure out the time line and decide how long your going to stay etc. then exit quitely if possible. Patz
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The whole family is N and there will be a war when it's known that we won't be attending at my deceased grandma's residence for the usual gathering for extreme drinking and fighting. My absence would give that drinking session a common theme - "the disrespectful assholes who didn't show up for their Grandmother". You can't win with people like this.
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The whole family is N and there will be a war when it's known that we won't be attending at my deceased grandma's residence for the usual gathering for extreme drinking and fighting. My absence would give that drinking session a common theme - "the disrespectful assholes who didn't show up for their Grandmother". You can't win with people like this.
Jondo - you and your wife might want to rent the movie "War Games"; some high schoolers hack into the NORAD computer and it asks them:
>>Would you like to play Global Thermonuclear War?<<
And they say Yes.
Once they realize they've started the DoomsDay Machine, they're desperate to stop it... and when they finally manage to, the machine responds with something I'll remember all my life:
>>Interesting game. The only way to win is not to play.<<
Once you have broken through to see the dysfunction, you will probably be used as a scapegoat. It gives the narcissists something to feel righteous about, someone to project on, and sadly it gives those who are still enmeshed with them something to distract themselves with. But it also provides examples, and pointers to the exit, for any others who might fight free. Leaving may be the only thing you can do for them, as well as yourself.
Good luck.
Visiter
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The whole family is N and there will be a war when it's known that we won't be attending at my deceased grandma's residence for the usual gathering for extreme drinking and fighting. My absence would give that drinking session a common theme - "the disrespectful assholes who didn't show up for their Grandmother". You can't win with people like this.
You mean there will be some drunken louts rambling about your family and disparaging you? I'd give that a miss, too. What they think is trivial, since it's the opinions of some very f***ed up people. Just take care of yourselves and don't worry about their moronic views of you.
And I agree with Visiter.
bunny
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Jondo, is there any way that you can arrange to arrive slightly later at the funeral, avoid the viewing if there is one, just step into the back for the service to pay your respects and then leave when the service ends? Only if this feels appropriate to you. It isn't running, it's a way of paying your respects to your dead without allowing the living jerk to interfere in that process.
Beautiful advice. I wish I had followed it/thought of it in the past! And it 's great metaphorical advice on how to deal with them in general.
It's sort of like Bunny always says-- keep it bland, do the least you have to do, don't engage. Brilliant.
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My absence would give that drinking session a common theme - "the disrespectful assholes who didn't show up for their Grandmother". You can't win with people like this.
You could try outNing them on this one. Break down in tears at the end and have to be helped away by your spouse. Have her return and whisper (loudly) to several people that you are so distraught at the whole event that you need to go home. You don't want to upset anyone with your grief. This way you escape, and they can't call you names. :lol:
That is what my mum does. Every single funeral she goes to. She loves them. Every single funeral she goes to is for her mother and father. She steals them. She steals any event she goes to, and puts it into her pocket as a trophy.
Then she lets herself get talked into going to the wake, and sobbing her way through that too, while everyone else is beginning to talk about the good times, and remember the deceased person with some dignity.
My mum once went to a wedding (of a cousin of mine) and spent the whole time collapsing into people's arms - our family and the other side!!! -and telling them that my (then) husband had taken an overdose the day before. It was true, but not the whole truth. There was never any danger. I looked on in embarassment, very angry that she even mentioned it. She stole that event too. She steals anything and everything she can get supply from.
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jondo,
I didn't reread the whole thread so maybe you answered this before, but why do you have ANYTHING to do with these complete and utter a-holes? Let them bury their dead and wed their whackos. Why do you have to be part of it?
What do you get from your family relationships that is worth putting up with psychopaths?
It sounds like you have a wonderful wife. Is it not possible or preferable to go make a nice life with her and some decent friends and write these weed whackers off completely? :?
mudpup
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October, that was hilarious! It would probably be a disaster to actually try to do it (it's tough to pretend to be truly N when you aren't) but it sure would be very fun to fantasize about.
I can just picture Jondo saying, as his cousin approaches, "no! I am so sorry! I just can't talk to you right now because seeing you reminds me so much of how much my family means to me! Boo hoo hoo hoo (and then run loudly out of the room.)"
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Yes Vunil you're correct - I could not play that game out with them nor would I want to. I've been acting for them forever already - now's time for truth and reality to prevail.
Mudpup, yes you are right - I should just have nothing to do with them, period. It's hard when there is 20 of them and one of me. Actually there's about 5 fence-sitters that just don't have the courage to expose themselves as in opposition to the N streak. However, I'm the only one out-there. Come to think of it there's hundred's of people that know them that just keep a safe distance (aka: wherever they are, be somewhere else)- I just have to join that crowd. It's just expected that a family member maintains the status quo and that's to support the family. Thanks for all the help with this everybody. We're simply going to attend the church and then depart and close all contact. Not play the game at all - so to speak. I've come to realize that we people on this board, like I yesterday soliciting help with my dilema, know the solution already - I just needed to have it validated by you good and understanding people. I suppose that is a confidence or self-esteem issue that I suffer as an N victim. Thanks for your help folks.
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Vaya con Dios, Jondo. Please stay in touch. People here do care what happens to you and your wife.
Visiter
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Jondo:
It is always wise to bounce the obvious off the folks here. You knew the answer already. Just go to the church service and exit. Whether they scapegoat you is really immaterial. You paid your respects, you protected yourself from the Ns, and more importantly you protected your family from these Ns. Enough. Protect yourself as if you were and are protecting your children. Patz
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Thank you very much Patz.
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October, that was hilarious! It would probably be a disaster to actually try to do it (it's tough to pretend to be truly N when you aren't) but it sure would be very fun to fantasize about.
I think the fantasy side is what appeals to me. I take what they say, and think, what if that were true of me? And you get a very weird result.