Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: phillip on March 20, 2005, 10:50:02 PM
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There is an ancient and well-kept secret to happiness which the Great Ones have known for centuries. They rarely talk about it, but they use it all the time, and it is fundamental to good mental health. This secret is called The Fine Art of Not Being Offended. In order to truly be a master of this art, one must be able to see that every statement, action and reaction of another human being is the sum result of their total life experience to date. In other words, the majority of people in our world say and do what they do from their own set of fears, conclusions, defenses and attempts to survive. Most of it, even when aimed directly at us, has nothing to do with us. Usually, it has more to do with all the other times, and in particular the first few times, that this person experienced a similar situation, usually when they were young.
Yes, this is psychodynamic. But let’s face it, we live in a world where psychodynamics are what make the world go around. An individual who wishes to live successfully in the world as a spiritual person really needs to understand that psychology is as spiritual as prayer. In fact, the word psychology literally means the study of the soul.
All of that said, almost nothing is personal. Even with our closest loved ones, our beloved partners, our children and our friends. We are all swimming in the projections and filters of each other’s life experiences and often we are just the stand-ins, the chess pieces of life to which our loved ones have their own built-in reactions. This is not to dehumanize life or take away the intimacy from our relationships, but mainly for us to know that almost every time we get offended, we are actually just in a misunderstanding. A true embodiment of this idea actually allows for more intimacy and less suffering throughout all of our relationships. When we know that we are just the one who happens to be standing in the right place at the right psychodynamic time for someone to say or do what they are doing—we don’t have to take life personally. If it weren’t us, it would likely be someone else.
This frees us to be a little more detached from the reactions of people around us. How often do we react to a statement of another by being offended rather than seeing that the other might actually be hurting? In fact, every time we get offended, it is actually an opportunity to extend kindness to one who may be suffering—even if they themselves do not appear that way on the surface. All anger, all acting out, all harshness, all criticism, is in truth a form of suffering. When we provide no Velcro for it to stick, something changes in the world. We do not even have to say a thing. In fact, it is usually better not to say a thing. People who are suffering on the inside, but not showing it on the outside, are usually not keen on someone pointing out to them that they are suffering. We do not have to be our loved one’s therapist. We need only understand the situation and move on. In the least, we ourselves experience less suffering and at best, we have a chance to make the world a better place.
This is also not to be confused with allowing ourselves to be hurt, neglected or taken advantage of. True compassion does not allow harm to ourselves either. But when we know that nothing is personal, a magical thing happens. Many of the seeming abusers of the world start to leave our lives. Once we are conscious, so-called abuse can only happen if we believe what the other is saying. When we know nothing is personal, we also do not end up feeling abused. We can say, “Thank you for sharing,” and move on. We are not hooked by what another does or says, since we know it is not about us. When we know that our inherent worth is not determined by what another says, does or believes, we can take the world a little less seriously. And if necessary, we can just walk away without creating more misery for ourselves or having to convince the other person that we are good and worthy people.
The great challenge of our world is to live a life of contentment, regardless of what other people do, say, think or believe. The fine art of not being offended is one of the many skills for being a practical mystic. Though it may take a lifetime of practice, it is truly one of the best kept secrets for living a happy life.
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Phillip> I am not "offended" at all by what you write :lol:
However, it is the very thing I struggle with each time my ex drops a bomb, in today's case, on my front porch, in front of my children (summons to appear in court as he attempts to reduce his child support to them). I can "let go" of that guy and his damage anytime, done it, will do it again. He can't let go of me....thus the constant attacks.
There is a very fine line between letting go of pain and accepting abuse.
A VERY FINE LINE. And that may be why all of us are on this board. We are not wallowing. We are helping each other out with compassion.
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I agree in principle that it's optimal to look feeling offended and see if there was actually a misunderstanding or one's own distortion.
OTOH, some people are overtly intending to offend another person. If you read the posts here, some parents and ex-N's are openly hostile, insulting and destructive. The target will likely feel offended because that was the intent and buttons were pushed on purpose. The trick is how one responds to it. There may be ways that are more effective than others.
bunny
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"The trick is how one responds to it."
That is the thing of it, isn't it. I found the article informative and enlightening. We might all do well heeding this sage advice...although it is a challenge not to react or respond when something hurtful has been volleyed in your general direction. Sage advice, none the less.
8)
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MUM-I did NOT write the post, I merely am sharing it. I am also not coming from a place of naive ignorance. My first wife cheated on me numerous times, and I loved her dearly. She beat the snot out of me in divorce court, as I was so in shock and denial that I did not effectively protect myself. She left me without my daughter, my car, my life.
I ended up with a gun in my ear and she said, "Do what you have to do."
It took 20 years, but eventually she sincerely apologized, and I accepted it. Today we can be cordial. Fact is, we created our daughter together and that made the trip worth it.
The article I posted because I thought that somebody might benefit from it.
Dr. Prinzivalli conducts workshops and is the author of the book, "How to be a Mystic in a Traffic Jam."
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"she said, "Do what you have to do"
You are then speaking from experience. What she said to you was cruel, and you reacted so perfectly as to place a gun to your own head.
People can ACTUALLY affect others in this way. To drive them so out of their ever-lovin cotton picking gourdes, that they will be driven enough to go to any lengths to stop the destruction. You have woken up, and now understand action and reaction. Bless you, for all you have endured.
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Phillip: Thanks for sharing this piece. I am glad, also, that you shared your story here. You are beyond it, and I am happy for you.
I can thank my horrific ex husband for some of the most precious parts of my life: my two children. That he continues to view them as possessions and abuse them psychologically is where the fine line stuff gets tricky. No doubt about it, this is my big lesson.....so I can see why I might be grateful for that in a way... but the week to week "smack down" he hauls off with tests my mettle and I'm tired of the tests. What I really want to do is pay attention to my kids and have a happy life, which of course I do, in between dodging bullets.
I'm not stuck on the old "story"...it is currently a fact of life for me, that's all. That he is a jerk may be my story, but until he behaves otherwise...that's my story and I'm stickin with it!
I was serious when I said that it is very confusing for me. I know how energy works. I know how things happen. But everyone, not just me, has free will. And when someone is in the middle of getting some nasty stuff thrown at them, all the transcendance in the world gets thrown out the window as you figure out how to survive.
I study everything and anything to help me figure this life out. I am not just staying alive....but during the moments of on-the-floor-again shock, I wonder how helpful my slogans and studies have been. It may be as simple as I spend less time down on the floor.
I mean no disrespect at all, and I certainly know that you don't either. Take me at my word. I am not offended, I am simply engaged.
This is an area I spend lots of time thinking about....and not always accepting :wink:
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Thanks Mum, I know it's hard when you are in the thick of it. There have been times in my life when a relationship was going south and I was terribly lonely, then I would start taking a Buddhist perspective seriously. Then when things got better, I would once again be immersed in the world of "Maya". Finally I just gave up the stuff that isn't me. What is left is Astrology, compassion, I accept that I don't have answers to some things and never will. But I do buy this line, "One's personal power may be measured by our ability to experience joy at any given moment, and the clock is ticking."
I am watching my father going through the end of his life. He is days away from hospice. He is not at peace because at 85, he still has not resolved his worthiness issues. He always strove for perfection in himself and in his family. All he succeeded in doing was alienating his family and being personally miserable.
He knew very little joy in his life and spread his poison to us all. All I feel for him now is pity. Like a frightened animal, he spent his whole life being afraid, and now he is facing death, afraid. Afraid of life, afraid of death, where does that leave him?
Answer: Confused and with alot of regrets
The choice I see for myself is to find my happiness. I will not depend upon anybody else to make it so. It is up to me. And I will leave this world knowing that I made it so, because I deserved happiness and joy .
Thanks for indulging me.
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What a phenomenally open, honest and brave person you are. I admire your philosophies, greatly. You have a very genuine way of expressing yourself. I sense that you do not "blame all women for the actions of the few". I, a woman, do apologize to you, a man, on behalf of all the *relatively sane* women on this planet. May you always be a beacon of light that shines in the darkness. I admire you very much.
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MUM- One of the concepts that Dr. Stephen Wolinsky addresses is that trying to correct things by crossing from spiritual to mental to emotional to physical areas is generally not effective. If it were, we would not view successful results as miracles. You said he is causing psychological damage to your children. Dr. Laura would say to you,"Mother, protect those children." You seem to have all the evidence that you need to RISK in order to prevent further damage to them. So, what are your priorities? What is placed above their welfare? Is being increasingly angry at him paramount to your children's mental health? He is not going to change. Is the anger the children see and feel teaching them how adults respond to each other normally? Is the answer before your eyes and your confusion being caused by the conflict between what you know to be true and how much you fear necessary change?
MUM-I am fully aware that what I have written here has a potential to be somewhat incendiary. I am fully aware that I am not privy to the facts of the stresses that you are subject to. I recognize that the children need their father, and do not see his maneuvers as you clearly do. Believe me, I am humbled by the sorrow of your situation. I am merely presenting questions that I feel I must. Legal issues come to bear also concerning visitation and the father's rights. I guess my question is whether or not you want him removed from their lives, under the present circumstances? What is at stake? You decide, isn't that so?
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my question is whether or not you want him removed from their lives, under the present circumstances? What is at stake? You decide, isn't that so?
I know a bit about what it feels like to be harassed by an exN. As much as Mum would probably want to have 'him removed from their lives', she can't when the courts are involved. She can only do her best to protect them (and she is).
Whether she's personally angry with him or not has no bearing on his antics. He's a narcissist.
Is the anger the children see and feel teaching them how adults respond to each other normally?
It's not a 'normal' situation for goodness sake, it's a nasty, family break-up.
Hope you don't mind Mum, me having my say here. I'm well over the worst now, but I'll never forget the unecessary pain my exN put us all through. The anger I had was important in order for me to heal. Without knowing/feeling it, I wouldn't have processed it properly.
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No court in the land would protect an abusive person over the needs of children to be protected from an abuser.
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Sadly, they sometimes do, out of ignorance and through being manipulated by the abusive person. I have hope and faith that this will not be the case for mum though. Keeping my fingers crossed for you!
((((mum))))
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For what it's worth, my father was raised by a woman who was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. He was a depression child. He grew up scared of everything. Family conflict was a common experience. He felt that he was never good enough. He spent his whole life trying to prove to himself that he was worthy. He raised 3 children that were supposed to be in supportive roles in his quest for self-acceptance. I think all three of us did our best to foil his efforts. He never accepted us for our personal qualities. Our successes and failures he always took personally. Even though my older sister has a Dr. in front of her name, he still found fault with her always. Because of his demeaning her as an adolescent, she never married, never knew a warm male embrace. Nothing that I did was ever good enough. My other sister married a narcissist whose father was an abusive narcissist. They have had three children together, the two oldest barely speak to their own father and the youngest who is 4 is well on the way there also. My mother died 1 and 1/2 years ago. He lived in that house 1and 1/2 years alone, growing more and more feeble. Though only 80 miles away from his children, he refused to move in with us, until last week. He simply could not surrender his house and "things" because this was his security, his reality. Two days after actually moving in with my sister, he had a congestive heart failure episode and was rushed to the hospital. This was on Tuesday. Tonite I was awakened at 3:30A.M. by a phone call from my sister. He had just died. I guess I didn't know how I was going to feel. I now have no parents left. I only know that he suffered, as he was caring for his wife, who was diabetic and suffered from heart complications also, and he suffered in his aloneness for so long. I will always resent him for his weakness and the damage he did to his wife, my mother and us children. But I understand the life that he sprang from and the issues he carried unresolved up to his death. As I placed my palm on his still slightly warm chest and allowed myself to feel whatever came, I was reminded of a counseling that I was given over a year ago by my gifted mentor; to forgive him. Finally and completely, I accomplished this. I was not strong enough to do this while he was alive, and only wished that it would end, be over. Now that he is gone, I know that he loved us, he was always there for us, he just always made us feel guilty for not being good enough. I refer to my original post on this thread. It was never personal, it was always about him and his relationship to himself. Whoever he was, his life's work is finished. I assume he won some battles and lost a few. I know this, he never really knew his own children. Goodbye my father.
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Phillip, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us about your father’s death. I am glad that you were able to forgive him. I hope I can achieve the same thing with my mother.
I agree with you, it’s not personal, but as ever, it is difficult. I liked your original post.
Best wishes for your thoughts and feelings.
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Portia-Thank you. For me, healing has been more about understanding the root of the abuse, not about blaming. I have often said that if my own father was an acquaintance, I would not choose to associate with him, at all. I do not believe in happenstance. I have been an avid astrologer for over 20 years, and I have clear evidence that our experiences and associations are purposeful. There are lessons to learn and decisions and choices connected with all experience. Our choices from moment to moment are pregnant with the nature of our future experiences. Sometimes the smallest shift in how we react to input can have dramatic future repurcussions. I believe this. I refer to a song lyric, "The truth that we're searching for is so small, but it's as big as the coming of another day." Peace sister and thanks again.
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Dear Phillip:
I'm sorry for the loss of your father. No matter what, there are things to mourn, in such cases, even if they are not obvious and sometimes, even confusing. My deepest sympathy to you and your family.
I know that he loved us, he was always there for us.
That is such a nice thing to see you write.
It is something you can always hold onto and be glad of. This might be where to find and experience some joy, even in his death and it could be an example of:
"One's personal power may be measured by our ability to experience joy at any given moment, and the clock is ticking."
I think there is great merit in those words, in that idea, and that it is good to live by this, as much as possible. No one is perfect but it is certainly a good goal to have and work toward....finding as much joy as we can as often as possible.
I also liked your original post in this thread in which to me the main message is....that the hurt caused us is indeed not about us, but about them (the abuser). We just happen to be in the wrong the place at the wrong time and became the receivers of offenses that would otherwise be directed at the next available target. Therefore there is no real personal offense. People who behave in a sick manner will do so toward whomever is the most convenient and tolerant or, helpless (such as a child).
Realizing this could help us to feel better about ourselves and lead us away from the pain and more toward...healing, if we choose to let go of all personal offense and focus on helping ourselves recover.
This is not an easy thing to do and I struggle with it too. My mind tells me one thing but my heart says something else. Eventually, I am confident that there will be peace between the two. It is a challenge and the joy in it is knowing that success is possible....healing will happen. It will take time but soon there will be more joy than pain in my life. I am determined to make that happen and I hope it will happen for all here.
GFN
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Phillip,
My condolences to you on the loss of your father.... :cry:
bunny
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I thank you kind people.
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I'm getting better at not taking other people's actions (or lack thereof) personally, for the reasons described in this thread. It's like something I read in a Carlos Castaneda book: If you were being chased by a hungry lion, you wouldn't spend any energy being angry or offended at the lion - it's just what lions do.
However, I'm still having a problem with the "spiritual" part of the equation. I want to believe in a "higher power" and that "everything happens for a reason," but then I feel like I'm being punished by the Higher Power. I feel sorry for myself, like why did I have to have this horrible childhood - it's not fair!! To use the hungry lion analogy: it's inevitable that some young antelope will get eaten by lions - this is not the lions' fault - but why did God have to make me one of the antelope that gets eaten young? I am "offended" by God in this sense- I take it personally. The answer that "life isn't fair" doesn't cut it for me.
One of my main goals in therapy right now is to "stop feeling sorry for myself". My therapist is a Buddhist, and I have Buddhist leanings but don't consider myself to be one. She says that I am an "old soul" who "chose my own parents" for a reason. I told her I thought this was pretty far-fetched, and she replied that it may be, but if I could suspend disbelief and go along with it, I could move toward freedom from self-pity. That may be, but it feels a bit like "new age" blame the victim, you're responsible for everything, you choose to feel badly, etc that I wrote about in another thread about Narcissistic comments.
Well, I'll continue to work on it: "Progress, not perfection."
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Gwyn:
One of my main goals in therapy right now is to "stop feeling sorry for myself".
Why? Why do I ask why? Because you don't seem full of self-pity to the point of it being detrimental.
We can pity our selves, especially the younger, child-selves. Does this stop us growing up? Hmmm. If we 'wallow' in that self-pity, yes (wallow = enjoy it and want to stay in it because it's easier than accepting and being very sad), but if we recognise it and continue real grieving? - I think that's healthy.
So - maybe it's too early to stop pitying your self? Stuffing feelings is not an option!
PS. I want to believe in a "higher power" and that "everything happens for a reason
sometimes we give ourselves problems that if we stopped asking questions, wouldn't be problems. I don't know if things happen for a reason. I'm fairly happy not knowing that. If something happens to me that makes me need to believe that things happen for reason, then I'll believe it - but I don't see any point in forcing myself into a belief. Hope that makes sense.
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Hi Portia,
Thanks for the reply- it does bring out some of the complexities of the situation (as usual, things don't fit into our neat "black and white" containers).
My self-pity actually has been to the point of being detrimental quite a bit - to the point of suicidal ideation and one attempt. BUT, maybe that was an attempt to, as you said, avoid the grief (it's too unfair/hurts too much to go on living - I'll show God "He" can't treat me this way and expect me to accept it!) Also, a reaction to the expectation (which I internalized) that I be perfect (I can't possibly be perfect because my life has been so crappy, so since my life can't be "perfect" the way it's supposed to be, I might as well give up altogether.)
I think what you said about pitying our younger, child-selves hits the nail on the head; this requires stepping OUT OF our child selves and becoming a responsible adult. I guess when I'm in self-pity, I AM the child-self. I am now practicing paying more conscious attention to my child-self so that it doesn't "take over" so much. Also, I do need to cultivate COMPASSION for myself, past and present, and I'm trying to figure out the difference between pity and compassion.
Thanks again for your reply - it really made me think a bit "greyer", which I constantly need to be reminded to do :)
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I do need to cultivate COMPASSION for myself
Yes! Because I think those voices telling you (and me and all of us here) that we are being too sensitive, too focused on ourselves, too childish, whatever, are in part the voices from the N's in our lives. They didn't want us focusing on ourselves at all, and made us feel terrible if we ever did. And they were pretty happy to tell us that any insights we had and held dear were in fact wrong. At least that's what my parents do (and did).
"Self-pity" implies that you are making it up, over-reacting. That isn't clear to me. I think what you are doing is feeling guilty about your own emotions, feeling ashamed of your own needs. Boy does that ring a bell for me. Please, don't! You are allowed your own desires and needs, however "childish" that mean voice in your head tells you that they are.
As for depression and suicide, I don't think those are self-pitying reactions-- they are signs of real depression. And depression isn't a sign of weakness or overindulgence. It's a big wolloping hard thing to deal with that has a bazillion causes, many of them physical and some of them hereditary.
I hearby give you a break! Please join me :)
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Thanks Vunil :)
My previous therapist (before I moved away) used to tell me: "You are harder on yourself - and less deserving of it - than anyone I've ever met."
A friend's therapist used to tell her that if her mind were a parent, it would be locked up for abuse of her inner child!
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I'm getting better at not taking other people's actions (or lack thereof) personally, for the reasons described in this thread. It's like something I read in a Carlos Castaneda book: If you were being chased by a hungry lion, you wouldn't spend any energy being angry or offended at the lion - it's just what lions do.
However, I'm still having a problem with the "spiritual" part of the equation. I want to believe in a "higher power" and that "everything happens for a reason," but then I feel like I'm being punished by the Higher Power. I feel sorry for myself, like why did I have to have this horrible childhood - it's not fair!! To use the hungry lion analogy: it's inevitable that some young antelope will get eaten by lions - this is not the lions' fault - but why did God have to make me one of the antelope that gets eaten young? I am "offended" by God in this sense- I take it personally. The answer that "life isn't fair" doesn't cut it for me.
One of my main goals in therapy right now is to "stop feeling sorry for myself". My therapist is a Buddhist, and I have Buddhist leanings but don't consider myself to be one. She says that I am an "old soul" who "chose my own parents" for a reason. I told her I thought this was pretty far-fetched, and she replied that it may be, but if I could suspend disbelief and go along with it, I could move toward freedom from self-pity. That may be, but it feels a bit like "new age" blame the victim, you're responsible for everything, you choose to feel badly, etc that I wrote about in another thread about Narcissistic comments.
Well, I'll continue to work on it: "Progress, not perfection."
Gwn-Give to me your precise birth information. Date of birth, city and precise birth time(Hopefully off your birth certificate. ) The closer to the moment of your first independent breath the better. I will spend some time on your chart and make a believer out of you. I know practically nothing about you and do not recall reading any of your posts with any significant memory. I am a certified hypnotherapist and used to be particularly interested in past life regressions. Now I do not bother much with it, because whatever the phenomenon is, it seems to be real. I have the astrological tools at my disposal to condense and summarize your journey in THIS life. I would be pleased to focus on your present incarnation if you would like. I do not do this professionally, though at some later time, I might. Remember though, the birth time must be precise. If you choose to keep this private, you may e-mail me at pvukovi@aol.com
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However, I'm still having a problem with the "spiritual" part of the equation. I want to believe in a "higher power" and that "everything happens for a reason," but then I feel like I'm being punished by the Higher Power. I feel sorry for myself, like why did I have to have this horrible childhood - it's not fair!! To use the hungry lion analogy: it's inevitable that some young antelope will get eaten by lions - this is not the lions' fault - but why did God have to make me one of the antelope that gets eaten young? I am "offended" by God in this sense- I take it personally. The answer that "life isn't fair" doesn't cut it for me.
My theory, for what it's worth, is that spirituality isn't about God rewarding the good and punishing the bad. Also that God does not take a personal interest in each and every human being. It's more of an impersonal energy running the universe. Bad and good stuff happens to everyone. Life is random with some chaos thrown in. We can make an effort prevent as much bad stuff as we can, and adapt to all that comes along (roll with the punches). I do NOT believe that everything happens for a purpose. Some of it has a purpose but not all of it.
My goal in therapy would probably not be to stop a feeling. It might be to stop ruminating if I were doing that.
She says that I am an "old soul" who "chose my own parents" for a reason. I told her I thought this was pretty far-fetched, and she replied that it may be, but if I could suspend disbelief and go along with it, I could move toward freedom from self-pity. That may be, but it feels a bit like "new age" blame the victim, you're responsible for everything, you choose to feel badly, etc that I wrote about in another thread about Narcissistic comments.
Man, I wish therapists wouldn't impose their personal beliefs on patients...it's so oppressive....reminds me of my family. Bottom line, I would not argue with her belief but tell her that it doesn't help me to hear this stuff.
bunny
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I will spend some time on your chart and make a believer out of you
Why?
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My previous therapist (before I moved away) used to tell me: "You are harder on yourself - and less deserving of it - than anyone I've ever met."
I had a therapist say to me once, in exasperation, "you sure do want me to say that there is something terribly wrong with you! But there isn't!"
Sometimes I would bring her sure-thing "evidence" for my awfulness/craziness and she would just laugh at me. Looking back I think she was very patient because boy was I obsessed. With making myself look terrible...
I really believed I was flawed because I had been told it so much. And if they had their way my parents would still have me believing it. Forget that when you look at their lives, their successes, their self-knowledge, their ability to love and be comfortable in their skin, there is nothing that they have on me! To imply that I am the "broken" one is just nutty. But it's still how they relate to me, and how they always will.
I feel so much empathy for all of us, trying to heal from this. I am jealous of people who were loved for themselves as children. Sigh.
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She says that I am an "old soul" who "chose my own parents" for a reason.
Some people really get comfort from these philosophies. For me, I really needed to stop seeing anything about myself as potentially "asking for it" or "inherently deserving/desirous" of my childhood. I had to see it as squarely and utterly my parents' fault. Even if they were shaped by other forces in their lives, and they were, it was their job to get unshaped! They had children. They were shitty parents. That is not a great thing to be. If you are going to have children, don't be a shitty parent. The end.
I guess everyone's different. For me, mute acceptance of the "universe's plan" just echoed what I had been doing my whole life, lying down and taking the abuse, thinking it was my lot in life. Getting good and angry (grrrrrrr!) was a liberator for me 8)
But, you know, your mileage will vary. Everyone has their spiritual beliefs.... In my belief system, god is just as angry as I am that people have to suffer, and certainly wishes it didn't have to happen.
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I will spend some time on your chart and make a believer out of you
Why?
Why not? We are all here attempting to support our own healing and each others'. Are we not? We all add input as well as we can, based on our own personal experiences and sense of what works for us. By closing ANY door we limit our options. Isaac Newton was an accomplished astrologer. He was once chided by a contemporary scientist how he could possibly subscribe to such unscientific theories as astrology. His response was, "But sir, I have studied astrology, and you have not."
Sometimes healing may be as simple as a reframing of the context with which we see ourselves. Perception, after all, is everything.
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To the guest who wrote "no court in the land would protect an abuser over the abused...." With all due respect: take your rose colored glasses off. Children with visual evidence of physical abuse are routinely forced into visitation and even sole custody situations with thier abuser. Sorry, that is a sick but unvarnished truth, right here in the land of the free.
To Phillip: just to clarify: I do not wish to take away my children's contact with thier father. He is thier father and as such has a right to see them. I simply wish to be free to do what I choose in this life, and find it frustrating to be engaged in battle whenever he feels like fighting.
I do not agree with his treatment of anyone, but this type of Narcissistic manipulation is extremely difficult to pinpoint in a court of law, and even trickier when trying to keep your kids safe and trusting (ask anyone here). I do a good job balancing out his negativity. When I express exhaustion at it all, that's simply all it is. Not a death sentence for myself.
I am so sorry about your dad. I have a similar situation. My mom was given two weeks to live in October, and she is still with us, or what's left of her. Her emotional demons have taken control at times and it inspires all of her children to take care of ourselves now. Again, I guess, another gift in pain. But I retain the right to announce that it still hurts like heck.
Phillip: On astology: had my charts done....all very interesting, but I will never believe there is only ONE way in this life.....but that's not what you implied when you said I'll make a believer out of you (to Vunil?) is it?
If this is the thing that "did it" for you....more power to you. You sound like it has given you peace. I'm happy for you.
Kaz: thanks especially for understanding and putting forth your take on my situation with kindness and so succinctly. It is true, I am not dealing with another reasonable adult here. My children have the opportunity to see compassionate adult communication all the time, just not when it involves said baby/bully.
MUM
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MUM-Thank you and I sympathize with your situation with your mom. It is like a part of us gets put on hold, holding our breath so to speak. Thank you for clarifying your situation with your ex. I understand. It is kinda like picking at a scab, the wound never gets a chance to heal.
I wish to add a piece about astrology here. I believe we are co-creators. I have seen written evidence that the ARENA in which we operate, the opportunities we are presented with in life are predetermined. However, how we respond to these choices are ours' alone. According to theory, we choose much of this ARENA in between lives, with guidence. This is not about punishment and reward. It is about spiritual growth. Those who are hurting others, are failing to grow IMO
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lol you wanna know what I learned about scabs? That if we pick them, they will heal anyway eventually, but the more we pick the deeper the scar. :)
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Thanks, Phillip. I think you understand. I'm not as certain as you as far as the predetermined stuff, but I think humans understand very little and as such, anything is possible.
I do agree completely, that how we react to what life hands us, IS entirely in our hands. That's why most of us here have come into contact. How to do what we can to heal with what life is handing us. (or call it what we chose, the end result of learning is the same). Doing what we can to heal and heal others is our common purpose. This life is but a speck, a flash of light. What an awesome little thing it is, though (and it's all we've got at the moment).
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MUM-I often take grim comfort from Woody Allen's line, "The best thing you can say about god is that he is an underachiever." I also like his line that we are all here for a crime we didn't commit. lol Sometimes I just have to laugh or I am afraid I will cry and not be able to stop. Peace dear woman.
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I don't understand why Philip wants to "make" someone a believer. I have not seen this attitude from anyone on this board, whether a believer or non-believer. Everyone else here seems to respect other peoples choices and not convince them of what is right. If it works for you philip, that is good, but do not assume it will work for others. You have been critisised befor for being "preachy", maybe you should look at how you present your beliefs? Not hating, not telling you what to do, just asking and suggesting.
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Guest-I will work on it. Thank you for your suggestion. I need this kind of honest input. My own insecurities are showing and I get kind of rough at the edges with no sleep. I apologize.
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I know Phillip personally. Trust me when I tell you that he is the most well-meaning human I have ever encountered in my lifetime.
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I know Phillip personally. Trust me when I tell you that he is the most well-meaning human I have ever encountered in my lifetime.
Didn't say he wasn't.
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What's that they say, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" and "The devil is in the details" lol
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Didn't say you did. :)
His intention is less about converting others into believers, and more about being himself a servant of humanity.
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Guest wrote,
I know Phillip personally. Trust me when I tell you that he is the most well-meaning human I have ever encountered in my lifetime.
Phillip then wrote,
What's that they say, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" and "The devil is in the details" lol
Phillip,
I can't say we see eye to eye on things spritual, but you do have a sense of humor, and can laugh at yourself. You're definitely not an N.
"The best thing you can say about god is that he is an underachiever."
I must confess I have read counter arguments to Pascal's wager but haven't found a convincing one yet.
Pascal's wager: We have a choice of believing in God or not.
If we believe and are wrong we have lived by the Golden rule and end up eaten by the worms. We've lost nothing.
If we believe and are correct, then we attain heaven eternally. We've gained everything.
However, if we disbelieve and are correct we live as we please and end up eaten by the worms. We've gained nothing.
If we disbelieve and are incorrect we earn an eternity in torment seperated from God by our own choice. We've lost everything.
His point of logic being, what is gained by disbelief? Is it 'rational' to not believe? This obviously does not prove the existence of God, nor is it intended to. But it is worth considering from a strictly rational point of view, I think.
mudpup
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Phillip: I would love it if you would do my "chart" I'll send you my birth info privately.
Actually, I've been wanting to look into this for a couple months, since a friend of mine said that she consulted with an astrologist and it was "amazing - too true to be coincidence."
As for "making me a believer," if someone could wave a wand and do that, I would love it. I am becoming more and more "pragmatic" about this sort of thing. If believing something makes me feel BETTER (and I mean better deep down, not just by suppressing), then I want to choose to believe in it. Being in a 12-step program has helped with this. Basically, who am I to say there is no God, nothing to astrology, etc There is no proof that such things do or do not exist, so why not choose to believe they do if it makes me feel better?
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phillip: Is mercury in retrograde or WHAT???? :shock: :shock:
It's all good. I think differing opinions are what makes the world go around (except for my ex's :roll: )
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Guest-Pascal's wager. All of the phenomena that is viewed as psychic, magic, miraculous, unexplainable, spontaneous healings etc. What if, I know this is blasphemous, what if we ARE god? What if we are creating all the time, but often miscreating through sheer lack of direction and belief(or as Jesus said, FAITH) Remember the parable of the mustard seed. There are people running around us that are capable of creating a slightly skewed reality as an energy field around themselves. I have seen it, felt it and she just plain expressed it to me. She chose to believe she had this gift, and it was. There are rules though. We have hidden potentials. For me it is not belief, it is experiential. The magic seems to be in our hidden and latent potential.
Gyn-I am so happy that you are interested in looking at your chart. I apologize if I came off preachy. I am very passionate about the subject and sometimes I get too carried away. Doing charts is how I learn what I believe to be the nature of reality. Granted, it is but a piece of the puzzle and the journey never ends. I read once,"In matters of the spirit, one is always at the beginning." I love what I do and if it serves you in your journey, then I am twice blessed. Thanks for responding
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when you said I'll make a believer out of you (to Vunil?) is it?
Wasn't me :)
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MUM- Mercury IS in retrograde until April 13. Plan no long trips, make no major purchases during this period. Common sense will take a back seat to emotional considerations and something will always be faulty with the planning of the trip, or the purchases will somehow not supply the desired effect. To be on the safe side try to delay until at least April 20. I do not live by these influences, since all experience is my teacher and I choose not to avoid, I merely notice what is occuring for me and register it for future reference. I am much more interested in the psyche and how it functions and why. Peace
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Phillip,
Guest-Pascal's wager. All of the phenomena that is viewed as psychic, magic, miraculous, unexplainable, spontaneous healings etc. What if, I know this is blasphemous, what if we ARE god? What if we are creating all the time, but often miscreating through sheer lack of direction and belief(or as Jesus said, FAITH) Remember the parable of the mustard seed. There are people running around us that are capable of creating a slightly skewed reality as an energy field around themselves. I have seen it, felt it and she just plain expressed it to me. She chose to believe she had this gift, and it was. There are rules though. We have hidden potentials. For me it is not belief, it is experiential. The magic seems to be in our hidden and latent potential.
Well, the point of Pascal's wager is not so much, how do we know we are correct, the point is what are the consequences of being wrong.
If I'm wrong, oh well.
If you're wrong, uh oh! :shock:
In any event, to each his own. I still say you have a good sense of humor.
mud
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If such a god exists, I do not support his/her position anyway. He has alot of explaining to do, and his excuses better be good. I would make more sense out of worshipping the sun than the Judeo/Christian mumbo-jumbo that has been handed down to us through the millenia. And I was raised catholic, I was an alter boy back in the days when we had to learn Latin to serve. I am pretty well versed in the bible but I prefer to draw my own conclusions as to what Jesus was actually professing. It sickens me what man has done in the name of Jesus Christ, man or master. Ever hear that Robin Williams skit when he says, "Jesus is coming and he's pissed?" I also read a line that stated the idea that "as long as we keep god out there, we will never find god within"
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Here's a weird coincidence for you: I was coming out of a McDonald's drive-thru (I admit it, but something I hardly ever do) and an advertising poster for some chicken mcnugget thing had only a picture of the mcnugget and the following caption:
"BECOME A BELIEVER"
:shock:
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Many people do not believe in coincidences. Synchronicity is a very real force. I have often noticed that when I am trying to decide something important, especially when it involves destiny, the sign posts appear just at the appropriate moment. Maybe we are catching little glimpses of how much we really are in control of the medium that we swim in, that which we call reality. I personally believe in guides, guardian angels, call them what you choose. Who was it Tennyson who said, "If mans' reach did not exceed his grasp, why heaven?" What if heaven is nothing but a metaphor for a deeply rooted archetype of infinite growth? Godlike aspirations. Makes me wonder.
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Phillip,
Mercury IS in retrograde until April 13. Plan no long trips
Does this apply only to Mum and her birthdate or to all of us in general? I'm leaving Friday for a vacation and need to know if I should be concerned?
Brigid
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Brigid-Just focus on the details. Make notes to remind you. There is a tendency to become very drifty mentally. Emotional issues tend to cloud the thinking processes. This is the best you can do, but watch for delays and unforseen factors. Danger is not indicated, just snafus. It affects us all to some degree. This condition occurs a few times a year, generally being about two weeks long. Do what you can to cover the details and have fun.
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Brigid: Phillip doesn't know my birthdate (unless you are psychic, too, Phil :lol: )....it's a thing I have heard a lot though, as one woman I worked with was an astrologer. It's become almost a catch all for when communications go awry now...."oooh, Mercury must be in retrograde"....(but actually, I did know it was....) I don't believe it predicates disaster, however......
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Hey Phillip,
I didn't mean to get your dander up.
Let me try beating this dead horse one last time.
If such a god exists, I do not support his/her position anyway. He has alot of explaining to do, and his excuses better be good.
I think this is precisely what Pascal was getting at. If the Judeo Christian God doesn't exist you're no better off than a fool like me.
But if he does, we're gonna have some 'splainin' to do, as Ricky Ricardo used to say, not the creator of heaven and earth.
Anyway, peace on Earth, goodwill toward men(and women).
Good night all. :wink:
mudpup
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Phillip,
I hope most of the snafus have already occurred. I don't think I could take another one. The rental office called this morning to say the condo we're suppose to rent next week is still being repaired from the hurricane and wouldn't be ready on time. I am sitting on pins and needles waiting to find out if they can find us another location before we leave on Friday. This was the last (so far) in a long line of difficulties getting this trip organized.
Thanks for the info.
Brigid
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Brigid- As Mum reminded me, many of the issues stem from communication problems. Make very sure that you express yourself very clearly and that you clearly understand what others are communicating to you. Misunderstandings can run rampant during a Mercury Retrograde.
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MUDPUP-What if we are god? Ain't no splaining, just being. What's the line Mum, "IAM" Ain't no explaining, we just are. End of story.
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Phillip,
If I'm God then the universe is in a lot worse shape than I thought. :shock: :?
As Groucho used to say, I wouldn't belong to any club that would have me as a member. :roll:
mudpup
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but what if it is true and we are just unrealized gods. what if?
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Hey I love this! I’ve always wanted to have these conversations but you know, we’re not allowed to discuss religion over here. Tut tut no, it might encourage debate for goodness sake. :roll: Please can I join? About the wager, please interrogate my thinking which is:
We have a choice of believing in God or not.
Agreed. (editing in later, the more I think about this.....so-) I just read this as an either/or statement, black or white and I don't see it like that. I don't believe in God in the way that I've read about God in some books so far. Does that mean that I disbelieve? Not necessarily. I'm still open to having my mind changed. I just haven't found anything to change it into belief as yet. I'm more sort of in the 'suspended belief' group, if there is one. Is there one? Do I have to have a label?
If we believe and are wrong we have lived by the Golden rule and end up eaten by the worms. We've lost nothing.
Agreed... sort of (we have lost our disbelief and that to me is no small thing to lose). But I don’t see the Golden Rule – do as you would be done by? – being used much. If it was used, there wouldn’t be any religious hatred or wars. Or an eye for an eye stuff. Suicide bombers? Well I guess that is ‘do as you would be done by’ in a sense. :(
If we believe and are correct, then we attain heaven eternally. We've gained everything.
Agreed.
However, if we disbelieve and are correct we live as we please and end up eaten by the worms. We've gained nothing.
I have a big problem with the phrase ‘we live as we please’. That implies that left to own devices, we are not going to live in a ‘good’ way. It implies that we are naturally wicked and that we need to follow a Golden Rule in order to be ‘good’. I don’t agree with original sin, I think it’s a wicked concept in itself. To be bad from birth! :x This line implies that if we disbelieve, we are incapable of living by the Golden Rule by our own thoughts! The two things – disbelief and living a ‘good’ life - are not incompatible.
I also disagree with "we've gained nothing". That's basically saying that life without an after-life is worthless! I think life is worth something. It's worth living whether there is another life after death or not. And all religions cloak that idea, that LIFE TODAY is worth living for it's own sake. :D
If we disbelieve and are incorrect we earn an eternity in torment seperated from God by our own choice. We've lost everything.
I don’t agree with motivation by fear. I prefer motivation by encouragement. Anyway, I don’t fear death or ‘hell’: I’ve already lived there! :lol: But seriously, if I live a ‘good’ life but because I don’t believe in a God (which God is the ‘correct’ choice by the way?) – I go to hell??? What kind of manipulative trip is that? Sorry this line just makes me plain angry. I totally reject the idea of hell for disbelievers. It's very N-ish 'my way or the highway'. Idea: do other animals believe? If not, do they go to hell?
His point of logic being, what is gained by disbelief?
The power to think our own thoughts, to question everything. If I give up my disbelief, I give up my ability to make up my own mind. I value that independence and freedom far too much. I don’t say that everyone should follow me, I just resist any attempt to have another human’s views forced upon me. I think it might be because of my childhood… :?
Is it 'rational' to not believe?
Well. ‘Belief’ in itself is not ‘rational’ because it’s not based on something you can say you ‘know’ for sure. That’s why it’s belief and not ‘truth’. So yes, it probably IS rational not to believe. This isn't just words, I do think like this. :oops:
But it is worth considering from a strictly rational point of view, I think.
I don’t think I can be entirely rational (at all). I can’t be objective because I see everything from my own perspective, history, experiences and my place in time. So I haven’t been rational, I’ve just said what I think and it’s what I think today, it might change tomorrow. I like change! :D Thanks for the brain workout. I missed this earlier, was reading threads in reverse order.
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OK, I'm going to sound like I have no will of my own here :roll: , but I don't care. Portia, I agree with every single word you said! I've recently realized that when I agree with someone here, I don't say it, b/c I think they already put their point across so well. Then I realized that that is pretty stupid. We all like support, right? Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, I do have a will of my own, but it happens to agree with P here! :) I'm just sorry I didn't get to say it first! :D But my mind is not that well organized at the moment (I blame the hormones, always nice to have an excuse).
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Sleepyhead
We all like support, right?
Well not so much support as in defining opposing camps (I really don’t like groups do I?) but yes, I like validation that my thinking is ‘allowed’ (there’s that problem again, being ‘allowed’ to be myself and think my own thoughts). So thank you for the feeling I just got, which was hey, I’m not mad and I’m not necessarily bad either, for expressing what I think. :D
That doesn’t mean I think anyone is mad or bad: I quite like all the differences now and I love yakking about them and having my thoughts stretched. I hope it helps too to signal where I’m pushing my own buttons – having a control-freak one-man-cult stepdad means I can get inappropriately angry about some things. That’s my problem.
Another thing Sleepy, yes, it’s probably good for you to state your agreement because this is a topic that can have us burrowing away out of any imagined harm’s way. I’ve done that, seen something I agree with but been too darn chicken to stand up and say so! :oops: I’m still chicken about some things. How many posts now? You’d think I should be ‘better’ and pack my bags! But there’s no competition in learning I guess, each at our own pace and in our own way. Discovering how to say things here – like that above – is helpful. Finding the right voice. So thanks, I guess I wasn’t too confrontational (I’m still worried about ‘upsetting my mother’ when I say what I think). Hey! :idea: I still think saying what I think is automatically confrontational! Sheeeeeesh. I’ll think about that for a while…..
Hormones. Have you had any strange cravings yet? Marmite and fig sandwiches? Actually that sounds quite nice...
Sorry Phillip, Mudpup, Mum, Gwyn, wayyyyy off topic and I mentioned that brown gooey stuff again! :roll:
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Hi all:
This is an interesting discussion and I can't resist. :D
I have what you might call, Portia, an irrational belief in God. I have always believed in God, for as long as I can remember. It wasn't something that was "forced" on me, nor can I prove that my belief is right or not. But to me, it's a rational belief because it is something that comes from deep inside myself, something I just feel like is knowledge, kind of like my belief that people are basically good. I can't prove it, but I do believe it and for me, it's real and I see examples of it all the time.
On the other hand, I think religions are run by humans which means that they can have human error (or even people with really bad intent involved). I was educated a catholic but I disagree with plenty in the catholic religion (so I'm not a very strong catholic--it might be said). Still.....I believe in the basics that most religions teach.
If you ask me, all Gods are the same. That is...whoever the Natives, Amish, Muslims, etc call God....is the same One, imo. Just like we have apples here, which are called pomes, in France (and that...is the extent of my french language expertise! heehee). I believe God/Jeasus appeared all over the world, not just in the places depicted in the bible. It is interesting, for example, that the Inhuit describe a person, very similar to Jesus, having visited them.
Ofcourse, many religions are based on the Bible, which is full of much information. Sometimes, I think of it as a history book, that people took the trouble to document certain events, for later generations. Why bother? I guess it could be argued that it was done to gain a following/worshipping/new religious sect of some sort? But there are so many authors in it that I find it hard to believe that they would all cooperate so well with eachother and put such a collection of stuff together....hoping to get some.....famous notoriety. Therefore, it does seem to me to have some holiness about it.
I believe that there was a person by the name of Jesus who lived, performed miracles, gave lessons in moral behaviour, and died because He had developed a great following of people, which threatened the religious leaders of the day, that He rose from the dead, that he appeared to people after that, and that He is the son of God. I can't see why all of that would be documented, in so much detail, by different people, with such similarity, if it were not true. It seems rational for me to believe at least some of what is written, especially the stuff that is collaborated by different authors, over and over.
I like reading the bible, which is my choice, because it seems to be littered with wisdom and really makes me think about so much. So for me, it is the opposite of what you say Portia, it challenges me to think for myself...to read and think...to decide....to believe....not to believe....or to question.....to consider....to read again, another day.....ponder more etc.
The golden rule is simply what we are instructed to try to achieve. It is what would make the world a much better place, if more people practiced it. It does not imply that we are bad but rather, that we have the option of doing good and it encourages us to do so.
I think the idea is mainly......how we live. If you don't believe in God, I don't think you are going to hell and I don't think that's the message that is trying to be portrayed (it might be some people's interpretation of all that....but it isn't my interpretation of it). My belief is that if you live good and try to do good and try to share what's good, you are doing what God hopes you will do, by choice. Even if you don't believe in Him, you will be rewarded. The thing is.....you have the knowledge. You know what is good and what is right and what is wrong and what is not nice...to do and if you choose wrong, most often, without regard for others, without repenting, then your rewards to come will reflect that behaviour. I do believe God is merciful and that Jesus tried to teach us the value of mercy.
Ofcourse, there is no proof of this and it is irrational to blindly believe stuff . In my case, the belief came first and the information to back up the belief, was discovered later, in the bible. I do think some people are born with faith, as a gift, just as some are born musicians, some with the talent for leading, some with extreme beauty, etc. It's how we use what we are given that makes the difference.
Then.....there are people on earth who have never heard of the bible or God or any such information/ideas/beliefs. They too will be judged, as I believe we all will be, according to our works. It's not worshipping or going to church or proclaiming loyalty to God or religion that will be counted first.....it is how we behave.....how we treat others......how we choose to live....that will carry the weight.
Sometimes I think this is hell. Sometimes I wonder if there is such a thing as reincarnation and the people who don't get it right the first time, keep being sent back here to practice some more. Makes me wonder how many times it will take me? :oops:
This really struck me Portia:
The power to think our own thoughts, to question everything. If I give up my disbelief, I give up my ability to make up my own mind.
If you give up your disbelief, you are making a free choice and making up your own mind. I think it's good to think our own thoughts and to question. That's why we have a brain. Have you ever read the Bible?
I gain great comfort in knowing that so many people bothered to write it for us. It is an interesting book, to say the least.
Well.....that's the way I see it, anyway.
GFN
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Hey thanks GFN. I’m going to take my time reading your post which I like a lot. And that’s a really interesting idea, the innate faith idea, that you have the ability to believe within you always. I like that. Must go soon (and really need to ponder your words at length). But thanks for now. :D
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If we believe and are correct, then we attain heaven eternally. We've gained everything.
The other pregnant lady wants to join in :)
That statement, and all that it implies, is at the base of my problem with taking christianity literally. I just feel sure, in that weird way that we are born sure of things and will never doubt them, that there is no hell. I am just sure that god (whatever it/she is) would not have such a thing. So I am sure she would not punish people for not believing in her in the exact right way.
(Now I know it may sound N of me to declare this from the mountaintops-- I'm really not. It's just that, for me, in some sort of really core way, that's what I feel).
And I really agreed with what Phillip said awhile back about holding religion accountable for what it has wrought. Even if I decide to go to church (which I do sometimes) I want to be super-honest with myself about what jerks many christians have been in the past and are being now, and that if that particular religion is "the way" then the way that it is the way must not be obvious to everyone! Because there sure is a lot of screwing it up.
So I have decided no one religion is the only way because of two things: 1. we cannot possibly know the answers completely because we are just people, full of divinity (I agree with Phillip there, too) but also full of a bunch of other stuff, and 2. whenever there is any talk of exaltation or gods or ultimate power, N's get involved and screw it up. It's just too attractive to them! They can't help it. Look at some of the lovely Popes we have had in the past (and rabbis, and buddhist leaders, and etc.-- there are N's everywhere).
Note how I brought it all back to topic :D
Oh, and someone mentioned the bible. It's a great read. But I have trouble getting past all of the extreme N in a lot of the characters. I mean, Paul? Can we talk? [please don't be mad, mudpup! I promise I know enough about Paul to make this judgment, and I promise to respect anyone else's counterjudgment, too!]
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I've spent some time driving myself nuts with trying to "figure out" "God". I read a really good quote that helped me and goes something like this:
"If my Higher Power were small enough for me to understand, it wouldn't be big enough to do me much good."
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It's all okay, it's all very interesting...we are all so much the same...
These past few posts are wonderful. You guys (gals) are awesome. Everyone musing on core beliefs...I just love it. You are all so well spoken and I will only add a few bits, which many have stated in other much more eloquent ways.
There are as many paths as there are souls. Being human means to be confused. Thinking of how to do this "human thing", while remembering our intrinsic love/god (I believe these terms to be the
same) is a spiritual path....whatever form it takes. Whatever.
When we see ourselves as seperate from god/love, this plurality leads to sufffering.
I am remembering lines from a beautiful song by KDLang:
"I worship this tenacity and the beautiful struggle we're in...love will not elude us, love is simple."
Can't agree with her more. At it's core, at our core, it's really quite simple...we are love. But the complexities sure make life interesting!!
Greetings to all the pregnant women here....your children are truly blessed...I hope you know that!!!
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Gwyn; love the quote...just love it. Saw a bumper sticker: "God is too great to fit into any one religion." and my other favorite (the one I struggle with daily): "Let go. Attachment equals suffering."
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John Wesley: Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as ever you can.
*****
Sounds like this board, doesn't it?
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"If my Higher Power were small enough for me to understand, it wouldn't be big enough to do me much good."
I love this! And it takes all of the N out of it.
Which, by the way, is one of the things I love about these boards. When people have religious beliefs they wear them lightly, without imposing them on others and without taking on the mantle of god. I really appreciate the honesty of this board about these issues.
And I think it's great that we don't all agree about everything. Gives me practice trying to be the opposite of my parents and actually listening to other people and respecting their views. It's a great thing to try out because heaven knows they didn't teach it to me...
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Greetings all. What an exuberant flurry of posts have exploded onto this board and thread. I have marveled at the metaphor of the movie, "The Matrix" over and over again. When Morpheus says to Neo, "You have been born into slavery." Think of all of the concepts that we have simply adopted, because they come with the civilization that we were born into. Government, war, religion, god, heaven, hell, power, greed, etc. Think on this for just a moment. What if we were born into a world where our connection to spirit was simply assumed and children were encouraged to practice manifestation of this connection. What if children were taught that there are absolutely no limits to their capabilities and gifts, not just empty words, but all of their surrounding stimuli developed to augment and encourage each person's personal freedom of choice and responsibility toward the benefit of the collective. What if children were encouraged and trained to unlock their vast potentials of spiritual connectedness. It seems to be what we are all hungry for, yet the culture that has adopted us, simply by our being here, has fallen short. It is because we all fall victim to the tidal wave of the herd, which we are all a part of.
I believe that people are basically altruistic, and when all the pathology is stripped away, we are one. I have often seen the experience of life to be what I call "The Sacred Struggle" We see people every day fight forces that might crush others, yet they plod on and make it somehow work for them. We see people pushed to their limits in physical, mental, emotional and spiritual challenges, always with the truth hiding in their mental recesses, that they are mortal and will eventually perish. We see each other struggling with issues that seem so insignificant to the casual observer, yet deep down inside, the struggle is as important as breath. We see failures and successes. Quiet victories, no fanfares. If there is a god, he is seeing this too. Tell me he isn't proud of us all and I will tell you that he/she is nothing but a projection of our own sense of worthlessness? Humans are magnificent creatures, godlike in their courage, fighting for their right to be here, under neverending duress. God is not out there, god is here. Why are we afraid of this power? The wolves in our midst are not. They are running this planet by default. They are afraid that we may figure this out. Remember Neo flying into the sky at the end of the Matrix? What if?.....
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Hi Phillip,
What if?.... I'm not willing to take that bet. The stakes are too high.
However, if you don't stop telling me I'm God, I'll have to send a plague of locusts your way. :wink: :shock: :D
mudpup
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However, if you don't stop telling me I'm God, I'll have to send a plague of locusts your way
Mudpup you are so funny! That comment gets funnier the more I read it...
Phillip, I thought your last post was really beautiful. I am not always sure what you mean, and I'll confess to not being big on astrology and such, but I think you have tapped into a very wise way to be-- full of positivity and loving spirit, and trying to embody that spirit yourself.
And who can argue with that?
The particulars don't matter anyway, in my humble opinion. They are all just words anyway.
I'm going to make a little promise to myself to remember this revelation-- sometimes I get pretty attached to my own particular philosophies as if they were somehow "true" instead of a path to the truth.
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It's not worshipping or going to church or proclaiming loyalty to God or religion that will be counted first.....it is how we behave.....how we treat others......how we choose to live....that will carry the weight.
GFN,
You always have such a lovely way of saying things. I enjoyed your entire post, but the above statement I do believe is at the core of religion, spirituality, faith or whatever one chooses to call it.
I am a practicing Catholic Christian (a convert of about 9 years), but disagree with many of the teachings. I don't think that makes me a bad Catholic, but just a discerning one. It is not out of convenience that I follow some teachings, but not others. It is because some things make sense and have a religious basis and others are man (gender neutral) projecting his power and control.
I do not believe there is only one way to Heaven and I have a sneaking suspicion that when we arrive at those pearly gates, God will be shaking his head at how many silly rules we imposed in the name of religion.
I find comfort in my beliefs and it has been a warm blanket during my darkest hours of grief and depression. Now that the blanket is off and the days are brighter, I can be grateful and rejoice that I felt God's hand leading me through it.
Religions are only as good as the people who lead them. People are flawed and therefore religions will have flaws as well. I don't think it makes sense to throw the baby out with the bath water, however and the good that religion has brought to the world I believe strongly outweighs the evil.
As I read back over this, I am somewhat amused by my having written it. For most of my life I had no religious beliefs at all and grew up in a family where religion was looked down upon. I guess everyone has to find their own way in their own time. This has been my way at this time.
Brigid
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Hi everyone:
Hello Brigid:
Thankyou so much for saying such nice things about my post. I can assure you that I don't always say everything in such a way but some days are better than others (depending on brain cell function). :D
People are flawed and therefore religions will have flaws as well.
This reminds me of a story that happened to me years ago (which I hope won't be boring but will maybe show how my thinking has....evolved).
I moved to a house that was just down the street from the church. I was quite excited to think that I could walk to church! On a nice spring day or a beautiful fall day, or even a crisp winter day, I could walk down the street and be at church (and save the environment by leaving my car at home, and get a bit of excercise to boot!). Bonus!!
So I went, one Sunday. I walked into the little church. I went up the side row of seats and sat near the back. It felt as if almost all heads turned when I walked in and sat down, just a few minutes before mass would start. All through the mass, people kept looking at me, oddly, no smiles, just as if I was from outer space, or like I was some derelect, or misfit, or something. :? I tried to focus on the mass but it was hard to ignor what became stares and some...smirky looking glances. :oops: I kept asking myself:
"What are they staring at? What have I done? What's wrong with me?"
At first, I thought it might be because it was a small community and no one knew who I was. But stare?? And smirk? And look me up and down like a low life??? :shock:
Finally, I realized what the problem was. Every single woman in that church had a dress on and a hat.
I had worn pants and no hat. When I was a kid, women always wore dresses and hats to church but this was the mid-80's and that was way out, from my experience at other churches. Pants, even jeans, were the norm. After all, we were there to pray, not assess our fashion choices.
Anyway, I felt terribly insulted and angry by the people's rudeness. I thought: "What a bunch of hypocrites! I won't be coming back here!"
And I didn't. I drove, from then on, to another church, on the other side of town where...guess what....there were lot's of people in jeans and pants. 8)
The point is......it wasn't until years later that I realized those people were not realy hypocrites. They were just shocked. :shock: Everyone wore dresses and hats to church and there I was not conforming. I did stick out like a sore thumb. I know, indeed, to be truly Christian, a smile would have gone a long way and have made me feel welcome and accepted and would have been the golden rule way to behave.
But people....in general....have a hard time understanding and excepting those that are different. This is just the way it is and has always been. Maybe, had I gone back, they might have accepted me, in time, or at least, some one might have smiled and looked past the pants and no hatness of me. But I really believe...they were just reacting badly, as we all do, sometimes and this does not represent the total of their behaviour nor their Christianity. It represents their humanness and their difficulty adapting to change....which most of us have at least some trouble with.
Some might have gone away thinking this was a reflection of the Catholic Church but it wasn't. It was an example of a group of people, who all knew eachother, who had been doing the same thing for years and years, and their very human, but not very polite, reaction to someone who looked like a rebel to them. The flaw...was not in the church....but in the people.....who are no less, nor more flawed than any one of us might be...given the correct shock/rebel/sore thumb looking weirdo to deal with.
Anyway....I loved your post too Brigid. I'm glad your idea of God is not all brimstone and fire and wrath. I bet he has a sence of humour! I believe all of that nasty stuff will be reserved for those who truly work to destroy faith, not those who try to keep it or share it or ponder it.
Regardless of demonination or creed.
GFN
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MUM- Thought you might get a laugh out of this. With all the talk about Mercury Retrogrades, I had to buy a dress shirt today for the funeral, and I had just had some painful dental work done. Half my mouth was still numb. I got the shirt home and tried it on. The sleeves are long enough for a gorilla. What's more I don't even care. I am just going to roll up the sleeves before I put my suit coat on, it will just have to do.
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Good evening one and all,
It is with fear and trepidation that I stick my toe back into this thread but GFN and Brigid's last post has prompted me to.
Everything in this post is only my experience and beliefs. Ignore them if you please. You can even make a target out of them and throw darts at it, or call me a fruity name if you so choose. Thats the great thing about a free country. Not only can we worship as we choose, we can make fun of the way others do also. :wink: Try that in Saudi Arabia or Iran! :shock:
GFN wrote,
It's not worshipping or going to church or proclaiming loyalty to God or religion that will be counted first.....it is how we behave.....how we treat others......how we choose to live....that will carry the weight.
As a Christian I do not believe in organized or ritualistic religion.
My short story. I was an agnostic the first thirty years of my life. I am very very analytical. Some might even say anal-lytical. :? I believe nothing without reason and rationality. Its just not my nature. I do not accept anything on blind faith.
One day my wife to be, asked me to read the Gospel of John. About half way through, it began to dawn on me that my previous skepticism had been based on ignorance, arrogance and myths about the nature of God. It penetrated my pride and when I was done I had considered His story as valid. But that began the process of research and comparison and reasoning and discovery. A lot of it I didn't understand. I don't understand quantum mechanics either but that doesn't mean electrons don't behave in most peculiar ways. The existence of something hardly depends on my feeble perception of it.
In any event, I eventually learned of the historical accuracy of the bible, of the staggering complexity and subtlety of the actual scriptures, not the caricature of them that is so often presented, often in church. I also saw transformed lives, including my own.
Christianity is at once the simplest of the religions but also the most complex and challenging. Entry is simple and available to all, but once in, it soon becomes apparent that what you have entered is something larger and more incomprehensible than anything you have experienced before. And that vastness is not seen from outside of it. Its like looking at a basketball that has the universe inside of it. I could not truly perceive what it is until I had already stepped into what I barely understood.
Faith is not irrational, I believe it is quite reasonable, more reasonable than when I was agnostic. I have never seen a quasar and I find them hard to understand, but I think it is rational to believe in them. I have weighed the evidence and have found my faith reasonable, rational and in fact considering the utter improbability of the universe and human nature, the only rational explanation for creation.
That's a tiny snippet of what I believe.
If you believe differently, like I said at the top, thats the great thing about a free country. You are perfectly free to be wrong! :lol: :lol: :lol: Please shoot no fiery darts my way.
mudpuppy
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Mud puppy-I used to share an apartment with a newly converted christian. We used to have long discussions on spiritual theory, and never quite connected on a meaningful level. Then one day he asked me to re-read the new testament, but only read the words of Jesus. Nothing else. It was a valuable experience, because I could find no contradiction or fault in my reading, only wisdom and compassion.
There is a Gnostic Text called the "Pistis Sophia". No one is quite certain where it originated, but it was translated into English, I believe in the 1940s. It purports to be an intimate spiritual dialogue between Jesus and his apostles. His mother and Mary Magdalene are also present. They are asking him direct spiritual questions and he is answering them without parables.
One of the questions that still haunts me, is when one of the apostles asks Jesus where he came from. His response was that he came from the 13th seat from his father(or 13th level) Now if you go into revelations you find two references. One is a reference of the 24 kings that sit at the right hand of god. While 1/3 of the "stars" fell from the sky. If 24 kings is 2/3, 12 is 1/3. I contend that the 12 stars that fell were the fallen angels, and Jesus mission was to pull them back up to the throne of god. It just so happens that astrologically, we all have slightly different proportions of the 12 signs, depending on the positions of the planetary influences. Remember, the bible says we were made in his image and likeness. Is it true we are all slightly varied but our roots originate as spiritual prototypes with archetypal qualities? If so, Jesus' sacrifice was not his death, we all die, many painfully. His sacrifice was incarnating at all, to bring his brothers back to the father. I think the fall of the angels created man's existance, however it occured, and the fall of man is our continued separation from the source. We hear and feel the pull, the call, we just aren't clear how to get there. Just some speculation. Nothing more.
P.S.-The four headed beast in revelations is depicted in statuary of the Assyrians. Each head represents the fixed signs of the zodiac, Taurus=the bull, Leo=the lion, Scorpio=the bird, Aquarius=the man
what is more significant is that contained within each of these signs are stars which the Persians called the Royal Stars. It just so happens that each of these four stars corresponds to an Archangel. Taurus=Phanuel and embodies beauty and love. Leo=Michael and embodies courage and loyalty. Scorpio=Raphael and embodies healing and spiritual regeneration. Aquarius=Gabriel and embodies spiritual communication and enlightenment.
The Christian Rosicrucians believe that all bodies that exist in space were willed into existance by consciousness as a place to manifest. The higher the vibration level, the higher the spiritual evolution of that consciousness. To me this means heat. So where does that leave us with the stars, our sun? Are these the physical manifestations of the angels, higher spiritual levels?
In the Moslem culture angels are known as genii. I have been told that the word genii and the word gene are similar for a reason. I also read once that DNA can be read "Destiny Now Arrives" I hope this has not offended anyone. I merely find it very fascinating. I hope any of you do too. Otherwise sorry for boring you.
P.P.S.-The four royal stars are also called "The Watchers" and are actually Aldebaran, Regulus, Antares, and Fomelhaut. I also forgot to mention that Raphael actually translates to healing, or healer. and any astrologer knows that Scorpios are natural healers. Astrology is a very deep rabbit hole.
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Hey, Phillip. I found your post, and Mudpup's, both profound and heartfelt, and not all that contradictory, really, (really).
It is always interesting to hear different perspectives when parties involved are respectful and articulate. Thanks, guys.
Phillip: Reading your post made my head hurt a little bit, though....my dominant right brain has a hard time with new histoty and informational words and my underacheiving left brain with new concepts. It's all sooo complicated!
But I do have an astrological question: I am a Scorpio, and I do tend to be a healer of sorts (teacher by trade)...however, I know LOTs of people born under that sign who are NOT very similar to me at all....at all!!! Because of this, I am leery of any generalization regarding "signs" or labels, names of any type, actually..they all seem limiting to me.
I always thought that the sun sign was only one of many astrological influences.....and as such, even to an astrologer, one's sun sign shouldn't be an indicator or predicter of anything by itself, it's only where the sun was.
So I bristle at labels.....probably a Scorpio thing,huh?? :P
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Mum-There are always variations based on other influences. But an astrologer will always work with the information at hand. My teachers could tell a person's sun sign just by the shape of their body features. It takes alot of practice but the information is there if one has eyes. By looking at your chart, I might be able to actually tell you what area your healing ability will manifest as. "as above, so below" Peace hon
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Phillip, your wonderful optimistic post on the previous page. :D I’m thinking of the K-PAX trilogy of novels, where the alien from that beautiful, peaceful planet talks to the psychiatrist about how we’ve got it wrong here (and the psychiatrist attempts to cure him of his delusions). Also ‘Angels over America’ was it called? The mini-series where we realise God’s gone now and we have to manage ourselves, take responsibility for what we’re doing to our species and to the others. I’ve only seen the first Matrix. But there are lots of people who think like you do. I find that comforting. Hope your mouth is recovered!
GFN, I really like your posts too.
I believe all of that nasty stuff will be reserved for those who truly work to destroy faith, not those who try to keep it or share it or ponder it.
Regardless of demonination or creed.
And hopefully regardless of having a faith at all? I don’t want to destroy faith, I just don’t want to be forced to join, or considered ‘wrong’ or ‘bad’ because I don’t want to. I want to be me. I’d like to understand faith better, but it’s difficult even having a conversation about it in the real world. As a seemingly non-faith person, I’m usually assumed to be anti-faith. It's gotta be black or white it seems.
Mudpup, I liked your post, reason and logic I like too. Faith isn’t logic to me (it may be to you, depends on what we mean by logic etc let’s not do that eh? :wink: ) About this point, you’ve given me an excuse to go on again, thank you :D
in fact considering the utter improbability of the universe and human nature, the only rational explanation for creation.
My view is we keep looking for absolute answers instead of leaving the questions open. I like things left open so we’re always ready to learn more.
So why is the universe and human nature utterly improbable? That’s our ‘scientific’ view and let’s face it, we know virtually zero about what’s really going on outside our own planet. Correction: we know virtually zero about anything on our own planet too! We are so young, so primitive, locked inside our own thinking patterns. We can’t imagine what it is to think like a tree. Who knows that trees don’t think? We do not know. In our superior arrogance, we think we have the answers. I don’t like that. :x We know very little but we don’t like to admit it. I admit, I know virtually nothing.
We look for rational explanations. We want answers. I’m not sure that’s necessarily correct. I don’t know what is correct - IF anything needs to be right or wrong. I just wonder why we have to make any decisions at all about these things? Why can’t we just exist in wonder and curiosity as children do?
Why does ‘creation’ need an explanation? :?:
Maybe there was no creation? :?:
Maybe it’s all existed for ever, outside of time? Remove the human idea of ‘creation’ and you remove any requirement for a creator. I think we’re tinkering with side issues by talking about the Big Bang etc. Just because we experience life as linear (born, live, die) it doesn’t mean that the universe is linear. Time is our idea. The idea of beginnings and ends is our idea. I wish I could find somewhere where I could use this way of thought – then I wouldn’t have to bore your pants off, sorry. It is quite lonely being me, I don’t have a book to follow, or other people who talk like me. If anyone is still with me here, and you can point me somewhere else, hey, I’d love that.
P - Sagittarian, 5 planets in Sagittarius, Moon in Aquarius, rising sign probably Pisces but I can’t remember. But it’s funny how I can spot an Aries within about 10 minutes, just by superficial physical characteristics. Maybe coincidence, maybe more, I don’t know, happy not to make any decisions on the big stuff (does that make me an INFP on big stuff, but an INTJ on daily living? And an INFJ when I’m tuning into other people? :roll: )
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Mum,
my dominant right brain has a hard time with new histoty and informational words and my underacheiving left brain with new concepts. It's all sooo complicated!
Don't worry Mum, my almost non-existent right brain and totally dominant left brain had a hard time processing Phillip's information, too.
I thought Scorpios were ruled by sex--seems like I read that somewhere. Is that how they heal? :wink:
Phillip, I am not poking fun here as I do believe that astrology has a purpose and very often has been accurate in my life. I am a Cancer to the nth degree and proud of it (except when my feelings are easily hurt). :(
Isn't it wonderful that we live in a place that allows us all to have our own opinions and be able to express them freely without repercussions.
Brigid
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phillip:
I have read with interest this thread. My Sunday School class recently had a series on the Gnostic Gospels (and there are many) and the Book of Revelation. This Book of John is especially difficult inasmuch one would think that John (no relation to Jesus) was tripping on LSD.
In actually Revelations should be taken in context in the time it was written. Most folks today reading it think it quite bizarre and hard to understand. If however, you were living in John's time, were under the Ceasarship of Rome, it would be very understandable. Most of what is written in the book of Revelaions concerns the realtionship Christians had at that time to the Government in Rome.
For example the Harlot describe in the Book of Revelations has to do with the description of Rome and the "seven heads" had to do with the seven hills of Rome. I am not very eurdite on Christianity but have attempted to make a study as a Christian. Most of the "approved" Gospels were written by the different Gnostic resprensentations of the Gospels at the time. There were different branches of Gnostics and each had their own take on what Christianity should emphasize. A lot of other texts have been left out such as the Book of Thomas. These were left out for one reason or another. It is very interesting when you begin to see how the Bible we now have came into being.
I have enjoyed reading your posts. Patz
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Hi Phillip and All,
Phillip, you wrote:
when one of the apostles asks Jesus where he came from. His response was that he came from the 13th seat from his father(or 13th level)
I found that interesting, because I've heard that all things "13" have been avoided and considered "unlucky" because they relate to women. In effect, women's "cycles" coincide with the moon's phases, and the moon goes through 13 cycles per year. So, there really should be 13 months per year (and 13 astrological signs?) I may be full of baloney on this, it's just what I've heard. Seems to go along with "The Da Vinci Code" stuff though.
Portia wrote:
In our superior arrogance, we think we have the answers.
One of the things that has contributed to my fledgling "faith" is a chapter in "The Big Book" of Alcoholics Anonymous called "We Agnostics". It includes some discussion that relates to Portia's quote. It is a fascinating read for those of us who are, as Mudpuppy put it, "anal-lytical".
Brigid wrote:
I thought Scorpios were ruled by sex
Well, I gotta say that certainly is true for my Scorpio husband, often to my chagrine :? (Not that he looks for it outside our marriage, but I can only give so much :shock: ) It was also true for a Scorpio girlfriend I had in high school. That is one astrological "stereotype" I've seen in action!
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Just a quick morning note-- really interesting posts!
I would like to put in a vote here for being spiritually curious AND rational/scientific/research oriented. I think that's possible.
But for me to be both (and I've always been both) I have to abandon the idea of "faith" as the basis of spirituality. I think this might be what Portia is saying, too-- can she keep what she wonders about in the physical world and also believe in spiritual things? [Sorry if I got that wrong, Portia?].
For instance, for me (just for little old me, not for anyone else!) I have to believe in evolution, and the big bang (at least for now because evidence all points to it), and all of the historical underpinnings of the writing of the bible (such as who wrote what when, and why-- there are great books on this), and the good and the bad of the people in it (as shown by history) and and and.
I can't believe in anything spiritually that contradicts what I believe rationally and scientifically, and that requires me to suspend any disbelief whatsoever. I think I'm different from a lot of people in this way?
Like, for instance, no way am I going to believe in a virgin birth.
The good news is I am utterly spiritual and connected to (what I experience as) god and the universe. I just have to view a lot of organized religion as metaphorical, not literal, which is how a lot of groups approach it anyway. Other groups, not so interested in that idea! I guess I'm lucky this post is anonymous...
The bad news is, I always feel like I'm searching for a community that feels the same way I do. And I feel a little caught in between, between my friends who are faithful to their religions (whether it is tarot or astrology or christianity or earth-based spirituality or whatever) and my friends who are scientists and reject the idea of god and spirituality out of hand as just ignorant.
I have a feeling I'm the odd woman out here too
:( Ah, well, gotta be true to my feelings!
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Hello:
Hiya Portia:
I’d like to understand faith better.
Whenever I want to understand something better, I start by looking it up in the dictionary.
Faith:
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.
From: yourdictionary.com
Faith in God might then be termed:
Confident belief in the truth, value, and trustworthiness of God.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
Loyalty/allegiance to God and a secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
You do have a set of principles and beliefs. So you do have one type of faith.
But you have no faith in God. You are not confident that it is true that He is...and you don't value or trust Him and you are not secure in any belief/loyalty/allegiance to God or His will, right?
Do your beliefs rest on logical proof and material evidence? If so, then that's where your faith splits off.....is different.....comes to a hault in regard to God and in regard to the more complete meaning of faith.
Have you read the bible, a historical book? It may provide some logical proof and material evidence, if that's what you need.
Do you trust anyone? If so, you have faith in that person but there really is no material proof or evidence that the person will always deserve your faith, is there? But still...you have it...a confidence in that person, a loyalty, allegiance to....belief that they will continue to be truthful and trustworthy and deserving of your faith, right?
You might say: "Well that person has shown me evidence and material proof of their worthiness of my trust".
Yes. God has not done that for you? You can't see it? There is no proof or evidence of it....therefore it is not so? It won't happen? It might happen? All or none of the above?
I just don’t want to be forced to join.
That is your desire/choice/what you want and are free to persue. No one will force you to do anything different.
Faith can't be forced onto you, you have to want it and embrace it.
....don’t want to be .... considered ‘wrong’ or ‘bad’ because I don’t want to.
By whom?
GFN
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....don’t want to be .... considered ‘wrong’ or ‘bad’ because I don’t want to.
By whom?
In my experience, most (not all!) of my friends who are involved in a religious or belief system feel pretty upset if I do not share it. I think this is a normal human reaction. But it is true that many religious people see a declaration of lack of faith as a weakness that can be saved-- and they try to fix it or save it or whatever with their own faith. In general not believing in something is treated as a deficit, to be fixed with argumentation, evidence, testimonials, whatever. I've received this reaction from people who believe in everything from psychic phenomenon to conservative christianity (not sure what that is a continuum of, but anyway). It just bugs them that I don't believe-- and I feel so uncomfortable! Somehow not believing in [whatever] is evidence of lack of imagination or something.
I think this is because whatever state someone is in feels comfortable and useful to them and they'd like to share it with other people. But I agree with Portia-- it feels really uncomfortable to say (small voice): I don't always believe in what other people believe. I know enough about it-- it's not ignorance. It's just a different opinion/feeling. Not right or wrong. :)
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Vunil, you said, "I have the feeling I'm the odd woman out here too." Well, I have to tell you: "Not so!" I can totally relate to what you said:
I can't believe in anything spiritually that contradicts what I believe rationally and scientifically, and that requires me to suspend any disbelief whatsoever....
Like, for instance, no way am I going to believe in a virgin birth.
The good news is I am utterly spiritual and connected to (what I experience as) god and the universe. I just have to view a lot of organized religion as metaphorical, not literal
The bad news is, I always feel like I'm searching for a community that feels the same way I do. And I feel a little caught in between, between my friends who are faithful to their religions (whether it is tarot or astrology or christianity or earth-based spirituality or whatever) and my friends who are scientists and reject the idea of god and spirituality out of hand as just ignorant.
I too was searching for such a community, and am very happy to have found Alcoholics Anonymous. You might even say I feel lucky to be an alcoholic, because I have a group of people to discuss spirituality with and not have to believe in any particular dogma or book or whatever. Before that, I felt totally disconnected because I couldn't go to "church, sinagogue, whatever" without feeling like a phony because I could never believe literally in things like immaculate conception, burning bushes, etc. Now that I've said that, I have to admit to beginning to like (and somehow, against all rationality, believe in) the concept of reincarnation. Weird!
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Hello again:
Vunil wrote:
....my friends who are involved in a religious or belief system feel pretty upset if I do not share it. I think this is a normal human reaction.
I must be abnormal because I don't feel that way at all. What I feel is a desire to comfort Portia and hope that she is not feeling "wrong or bad" but first.....I want to be sure it's ....people....she's concerned with who think that....and not God.
...many religious people see a declaration of lack of faith as a weakness that can be saved.
There I go being abnormal again, I guess, because I see a lack of faith as possibly a lack of understanding, or a lack of experience/opportunity, or a lack of information or just a choice. I have no desire to "save" anyone but I like to be sure they are not feeling "evil" for not having faith. Some people believe that....which to me......is worse than just about anything.
It just bugs them that I don't believe-- and I feel so uncomfortable!
I understand, I think. Like me....at that church....and my dresslessness and hatlessness. How out of place! Strange! Weird of me.
I don't think that about you or anyone else who does not believe in God or who say they don't want to have faith. I respect your choice.
But if you ask.....if you say: "I would like to understand faith", then I have a desire to do my best to share what helps me/my ideas of it....which might be a consideration or may be worthless.
Somehow not believing in [whatever] is evidence of lack of imagination or something.
Do many of your friends really say this? No wonder you feel uncomfortable. :( That is sad. I'm sure you have plenty of imagination and that is not very nice of them, if they say that, or imply it.
...it feels really uncomfortable to say (small voice): I don't always believe in what other people believe. I know enough about it-- it's not ignorance. It's just a different opinion/feeling. Not right or wrong.
Boy! Can I relate to that statement because I have a few opinions and feelings that are different than many people have expressed and which have been clearly rejected and proclaimed to be wrong. :shock:
How do they know that?
I still say....it doesn't matter what you believe....it's what you do that counts. For me, faith is a bonus.
GFN
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I have a response to your statement Portia, "Maybe there was no creation?"
I got myself into alot of trouble on another board where alot of philosophy was being presented about how to "properly" connect with spirit. Because the person writing had two near-death experiences, he felt he was in an authoritative position to discuss the nature of god and creation. I merely presented the question to him, "How can something come from nothing?" This is the profound question. If we can answer it, we need go no further, IMHO. The creation of a god concept does not satisfy as an answer, because obviously we are still left with the question, "Where did god come from?"
I never believed in the big bang, and never will. Often I think that humans attempting to understand infinity and eternity is like an ant trying to figure out what a lawn mower is that is leveling its ant hill.
Belief is another topic. I was once married to a Scorpio, she was a medium and telekinetic. My ideas are not based on belief, the ones that are even I do not classify as truth, only theory, speculation. I only believe in the things I experience personally, then create theories to explain it.
I spent years literally at the feet of a gifted holy woman. Though often skeptical, she always impressed me with the reality of her gifts. I could go on and on with specifics, that most would not believe. But suffice it to say that her belief was that we create what we think. Add to that the magnetic power of intention and total faith and we are creators. I am working on this faith for myself. The rest seems somewhat circular. Why ask questions that have no answers?
I will share something that some may find interesting. She told me something once, when we were alone. She channeled this, and she only vaguely remembers her words. She said each atom of matter contains the potential of a black hole. She said the earth, and any planetary body or star contains within it a black hole. The reason the earth does not get sucked up, is because there is a balance. It involves the size of the black hole, and the matter that gets added to the earth's mass simply by the attraction that the black hole exerts on local space debris. This is the engine that creates heat and techtonic activity and radiation.
She also added that this engine creates lenslike portals, that are relatively stable. Some of the ancient sights were built to perpetuate the location and memory of these sights. She said that these sights are the "tunnels" that people who have had near death experiences have referred to. She told me that these lenses are the soul's entry and exit from the material realm. She said Native American mystics can see these "coordinates" in a person's "Medicine Wheel" which is their term for the aura. She said Machu Pichu is such a site. There are others.
Obviously, I can prove none of this. I merely think it highly interesting and I hope any of you do too.
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Good morning everyone,
What a nice friendly place to discuss things.
Phillip, I must confess I am unfamiliar with your reference to the thirteenth seat as where Christ came from. Perhaps you could give me the verse?
I hope this has not offended anyone.
Not me. I don't agree with your beliefs, but you are obviously a kind and considerate and sincere person. I hope you get Brigid's vacation squared away before she gets there. :wink:
Portia,
Faith isn’t logic to me
I didn't mean logic is faith. I meant it can be logical and reasonable to have faith that something unprovable exists if there is sufficient evidence.
So why is the universe and human nature utterly improbable?
I agree with you here. It is only improbable to our limited minds. To the creator it is probably very probable. Look up the anthropic principle. It is not really a testable scientific theory, but it is a calculation of the huge number of precisely correct circumstances which have had to occur for life to have even been possible on earth. The odds are exponentially long of you and me even existing to communicate.
Who knows that trees don’t think? We do not know.
Considering my line of work I sincerely hope they don't.
We know very little but we don’t like to admit it.
I admit it. I find it somewhat amusing that as science describes and measures and gains a minimal understanding of the universe that it tends to increase our arrogance not decrease it. You would think that discovering a tiny portion of the wonder around us and getting an idea of how little we know we would be humbled. I don't claim to know much of anything. I do however believe there is a God who does, and all he asks of us is we acknowledge him.
Just because we experience life as linear (born, live, die) it doesn’t mean that the universe is linear. Time is our idea. The idea of beginnings and ends is our idea. I wish I could find somewhere where I could use this way of thought – .
I found somewhere to use this line of thought. When you describe something outside of time and outside of the observable universe you are describing God, to me anyway.
then I wouldn’t have to bore your pants off, sorry. It is quite lonely being me, I don’t have a book to follow, or other people who talk like me. If anyone is still with me here, and you can point me somewhere else, hey, I’d love that.
You're not boring my pants off. I'm not feeling any cold drafts anyway. :wink: I love this conversation, and I'm still with you. You are very thoughtful and quite reasonable. And a bit of a wiseguy too, which I always admire.
vunil,
I can't believe in anything spiritually that contradicts what I believe rationally and scientifically, and that requires me to suspend any disbelief whatsoever. I think I'm different from a lot of people in this way?
I believe in the big bang. And I believe it occurred billions of years ago. I also believe there is obviously a progression of animal life from simpler to more complex over billions of years. I think Darwinian evolution has some insuperable hurdles to clear, but the critters were obviously here.
Try visiting a site called reasons.org. Sorry don't know how to do the link thing. It is an organization started by a Caltech astrophysicist name Hugh Ross who claims to have developed a testable creation model incorporating the big bang and other scientific discoveries. It is extremely powerful from the astrophysical side and biblical interpretaion side, maybe a little weaker on the biological side. It has opened the eyes of a great many skeptics who have been tripped up by Genesis and the traditional interpretation of it.
I wonder at your conjoining rationality and science. They aren't one and the same are they? They are only identical if we begin with a logical fallacy aren't they?. If we assume that the only things that exist are what we can measure or observe then they are the same. If however something exists outside of our realm of observation we cannot by definition observe it. Isn't it irrational to make that assumption? How do I know you exist. I have made the rational assumption that the byproducts of your existence(your posts) demonstrate you exist. That's why I believe in God. The byproduct of the creator, his creation, indicates his existence. And our ability to measure his creation strengthens not weakens my faith.
And I feel a little caught in between, between my friends who are faithful to their religions (whether it is tarot or astrology or christianity or earth-based spirituality or whatever) and my friends who are scientists and reject the idea of god and spirituality out of hand as just ignorant.
I have a feeling I'm the odd woman out here too
You don't seem odd to me in the slightest. :wink: I sometimes have the same feeling among Christians many of whom repeat dogma that is completely unrelated to the bible in any way. I think you are great and have an open mind. Maybe they ought to be the odd ones out?
Hope your little one is enjoying the conversation. He's so close to the keyboard he must know what you're saying. :wink: :shock:
Its pouring rain here so I have nothing better to do than make long rambling posts.
mudpup
PS. The DaVinci codes. There are scholarly critics of faith of any kind and Chritianity in general. This guy isn't one. He is a complete historical ignoramus who is making a quick buck off of a lot of gibberish. :roll:
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Hi again Phillip,
The creation of a god concept does not satisfy as an answer, because obviously we are still left with the question, "Where did god come from?"
I believe this is also a logical fallacy. You must first assume it is impossible for something to exist eternally without beginning or end. It is logically impossible to prove that such a being doesn't exist so your question does not dispose of the 'god concept'.
The bible explicitly states God is without begining or end. If he is, then he came from nowhere, He simply is. When the Pharisees asked JC how he could have known Abraham, who had lived two thousand years earlier, he simply said, "I Am". Now you may not believe that, but from a philosophical point of view you can't just say something is impossible, which cannot be proven to be impossible, to answer a question.
mud
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Hiya Mud:
The way I insert a link (which works but there may be other or better ways) is......
Open a second window and go to the site I want to link up.
Flip back and forth between that window and the message box so as to type the addy in the message box correctly (including capital letters, if any).
http://www.reasons.org/about/index.shtml
Then right click and highlight the addy just typed.
Click "URL" at the top right of the message box.
And there you have it!
GFN
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As far as I can tell, the "science" in such matters gets better and better at DESCRIBING phenomena with greater accuracy and detail, but it does not EXPLAIN them. How could it, when meaning is subjective and science is supposedly objective?
Phillip: You have me completely hooked - I want to know more about your experiences!!! By the way, did you get my birth info via private message?
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GFN,
How did I know you would provide the answer?
Do you ever tire of being so helpful? Seems like it would be a burden once in awhile.
Thanks. :D
mud
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Seems like it would be a burden once in awhile.
A few moments of typing is no burden at all Mudpuppy.
You're quite welcome. :D
GFN
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Considering my line of work I sincerely hope they don't.
So funny!
Thanks everyone for being so comforting and accepting :)
I do actually have spiritual beliefs, but heaven knows they would make no sense if I tried to explain them. Maybe that's why I can't find a church that exactly fits me! Light bulb! The church of the inarticulately expressed ideas.
My feelings about science are similar to what many feel about the supernatural. I thank the stars every day that someone studied narcicissm and wrote down evidence of it and how it affects us and what to do about it (i.e., run away...). It just seems like the world's greatest gift to have people out there figuring stuff out and then telling us. Fills me with awe...
And in a weird way, for me, the particulars of the physical earth (and universe) are what I find most mystical and god-like. I want to know everything about them. It feels worshipful for me to do that.
anyway, thanks, list! :P
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In my experience, most (not all!) of my friends who are involved in a religious or belief system feel pretty upset if I do not share it. I think this is a normal human reaction.
I don't think it's normal to get "pretty upset" that you don't share their belief system. It's kind of narrowminded. Why can't they just chill out about it. I've had no pressure regarding religion but only about PC-ness. I am not that PC. So some people have tut-tutted me and even gotten hot under the collar because I disagreed with them. I don't even care. I figure it's a free country.
But it is true that many religious people see a declaration of lack of faith as a weakness that can be saved-- and they try to fix it or save it or whatever with their own faith. In general not believing in something is treated as a deficit, to be fixed with argumentation, evidence, testimonials, whatever. I've received this reaction from people who believe in everything from psychic phenomenon to conservative christianity (not sure what that is a continuum of, but anyway). It just bugs them that I don't believe-- and I feel so uncomfortable! Somehow not believing in [whatever] is evidence of lack of imagination or something.
I usually pretend to agree with them; start acting saved or whatever they want. I might say, God Bless You, Thank You Jesus, and they cheerfully move on. Arguing with them only encourages their prosletyzing.
I think this is because whatever state someone is in feels comfortable and useful to them and they'd like to share it with other people.
Here are some reasons I've observed: the person may be mentally fragile and prosletyzing keeps him "together" (when a stranger approaches me). Or the person is a bit tunnelvisioned and wants everyone to be like them (can't tolerate differences). Or the person wants to report back to their church about the missionary work they did. I don't think any of it is meanspirited but I don't think it's really about sharing. It's more about wanting to rescue other people who didn't ask for it.
I disagree with hordes of people. I don't think they care. And if they do, c'est la vie.
bunny
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Hey all,
What a huge cool thread! So much to digest, gonna have to go back and read it all S-L-O-W-L-Y again for the fifth time! Just a little info on Scorpio's: (don't know much but astrology has always interested me) they aren't ruled by sex, they're the sign of birth, death and rebirth. Every sign has a corresponding part of the body, and Scorpio's is the genitals. Scorpio's are very sexual but in a spiritual sense and in terms of cosmic energies. They have the ability to regenerate themselves (if they know how to use their power) which may be where the healing aspect comes from.
Off to reread this thread and get some more education :wink: !
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Mudpup said: I believe in the big bang. And I believe it occurred billions of years ago. I also believe there is obviously a progression of animal life from simpler to more complex over billions of years. I think Darwinian evolution has some insuperable hurdles to clear, but the critters were obviously here.... The byproduct of the creator, his creation, indicates his existence. And our ability to measure his creation strengthens not weakens my faith.
Hey Mud! I'm a theistic evolutionist as well... and my father, crazy though he doubtless was in other respects, worked very credibly on several projects that measured - among other things - the residual radio noise left over from the Big Bang. So y'all know where I stand on that one. :lol: :lol: (And of course, "Let there be light" = the Maxwell equations! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations )
I mean, why would God go to all that trouble to make DNA and RNA and protein, and then not use them to the fullest? :D :D :D
Thanks for the awe-some info on reasons.org. I never knew that was there.
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I mean, why would God go to all that trouble to make DNA and RNA and protein, and then not use them to the fullest?
I love that!
I was thinking this morning about what a wondrous thing antibiotics are. And x-rays! And ultrasounds (pregnant ladies love those). It seems everything is there for us to discover and figure out how it all fits together-- and when we do, it is pretty darned interesting. I mean-- chromosomes have to be the most interesting thing ever (did I mention I was pregnant?).
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Oh, just realized something-- the reason why I don't believe in the creation story literally, or even combined with evolution, is because I think it's way less interesting and compelling than just regular old big-bang/evolution, which knocks my socks off utterly. Just seems to be more wondrous wondrousness in the latter, to me. I feel god in it. Whatever the heck I mean by that (please don't ask me to explain! I have no idea how to).
(I know most of us here disagree with at least one of those statements! But I hope you'll indulge my revelations, which I'm utterly enjoying).
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Hiya all, I love this thread, I’ve never seen or heard such an open conversation.
Phillip,
I only believe in the things I experience personally, then create theories to explain it.
I understand this and accept it. I would add get as much information about it and then compare all experience to your own experience and see how it matches and differs? If this is your faith, then I like your faith. I guess if I have faith (I’m hung up on words and language, so-) then it’s similar.
She also added that this engine creates lenslike portals, that are relatively stable.
This is all fascinating and stretching. Thank you. :D It fits into using energy holes for ‘travel’ too which is a lovely thought to entertain. I just can’t see right now how we fleshy things could ever evolve to such a level where we could somehow withstand the forces though. But ‘they’ are investigating such things. Beam me up Scotty. 8)
Q: if you could go back or forward in time just once, which would you choose? I’d go forward and see if we survive, what we’re doing, how we’re living. But how far forward? Suppose we die out….if I go forward far enough…would a different species be ‘doing better’? Just playing.
Hiya mudpup,
I do however believe there is a God who does, and all he asks of us is we acknowledge him.
I can’t see how any God would be bothered enough with us to be concerned about our acknowledgement. Why would he ask anything of us? I don’t understand how we can be that important. If we are important, we’re not doing very well at taking care of ourselves and our home, we need educating! :?
One of the reasons I question any idea of an external higher power that is interested in us, is that, well, it seems too much like a parent/child relationship and in some ways, too close to human narcissism than I like. Do you see what I mean? I get uncomfortable with the ‘relationships’ involved.
GFN,
When I said “I’d like to understand faith better” what I meant was I’d like to understand why some people have faith. I know what faith is. I don’t know why some people have it and others don’t. Don’t think I expressed that very well before.
You do have a set of principles and beliefs. So you do have one type of faith.
I don’t have any principles which are absolute. Can’t think of any which I wouldn’t change given the right circumstances. Seriously. Murder, suicide, much worse. They could all be argued for given certain theoretical situations (but that gets a bit sick for everyday yakking). What about faith in myself? I could easily be driven ‘mad’ and perhaps not know what was me or not me. Faith would be believing that couldn’t happen I guess. I don’t have that faith. Anything could happen.
I haven’t read all of the Bible, or the Talmud, or the Koran etc. They don’t interest me enough now, and I’ve given up reading books because I think I ‘should’ read them. Maybe I will read them one day. On that desert island. 8)
Do you trust anyone?
I trust myself more now. But you mean trust others? And if so with what? My life? My Self (which is more important to me than my life)? Honestly, no I don’t trust anyone with my Self. Because there is no-one that knows me like I know me. To trust someone else with my Self, my mind, would be illogical, lazy and irresponsible to me. Unless I was ‘mad’ and then I might have no choice (or would I?). Tricky subject, insanity. Do you really trust anyone to that extent GFN, with your mind? Is this what faith is, feeling that God is responsible for what’s in your head? (trying to think how to phrase that better, but I can’t think how to, it’s a serious question though)
What I feel is a desire to comfort Portia and hope that she is not feeling "wrong or bad" but first.....I want to be sure it's ....people....she's concerned with who think that....and not God.
Thanks for wanting to comfort me GFN. If God thinks I’m wrong or bad, I don’t know that, so it literally doesn’t enter my thoughts, no problem. But I really don’t imagine he’d be interested one way or another. I wonder if God sees a difference between bad and good, right and wrong? I think Vunil answered this quote pretty well. It’s that I have enough on my plate trying to understand my fellow humans :roll: but I really like the humans here :D
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Dr. Stephen Wolinsky states that universally, his belief is that the shock of entry into the world , at birth, coupled with the awareness that we are not our mother at about 6 to 8 monts old creates a need in us to be safe. This manifests as cycle of, "if I am good I get safe. If I am bad, I get punished. It is not a coincidence that we view god in this way. Portia, your statement in your last post directly suggests that this is the case. Very brilliant insight on your part, IMO.
Think on this concerning black holes. If quasars are "white holes", where all of the matter is presently spewing out, keep in mind that most of the quasars are 15 billion light years out there. Which means that we are seeing them from 15 billion years ago. This would mean that the energy is somehow being thrust into the past. How bizarre to think that the energy is actually recycling the universe, but TIME is being recycled also. I think time is another conundrum that we do not have a grip on intellectually. Just openly sharing my speculations.
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Phil: Have you read the Power of Now by Ekhart Tolle? He asserts and I cannot find a way to argue anything differently....that NOW is all there is. Everything else is past...future and thus NOT real. Spending our "time"
(a human invention and collective agreement) on past or future thoughts seperates us from the JOY to be found simply in the NOW.. the RIGHT NOW.
I frequently ask myself this question: what is the problem RIGHT NOW? not 5 minutes from now, not 2 minutes ago, not months from now, but RIGHT NOW? I usually find that I don't really have a problem. It doesn't keep me from being practical and acting and planning in a way to function well as a human, but it leads me to joy all the time. Nothing is real but NOW.
I will add that even reality is so subjective that it is perhaps such a different experience for most that it's not worth talking about in a global sense. And yet, we spend our lives finding connections among our souls and to our past, to our future....that I think Don Miguel whoever (bad with names) is correct; this is a collective dream we are in.
We agree (hey we agree red lights mean stop!) to a "reality" to keep us together and not alone, or to acknowledge our basic ONENESS! Wayne Dyer expresses (far better than I can) that it is our seperation from "GOD" or god/self...whatever, that causes our suffering. Our seperation from the core of love/god that we all have that causes our pain. We are all one, is hard placet o acknowlege, as anyone who has been attacked/damaged will attest to. But it is that seperation that caused the pain in the first place (your abuser not seeing this if you will).
You can find similar statements of this oneness and seperation in almost any religion....thus the "hey I found something that brought me happiness" enthusiasm that most (possibly later twisted up) religions start with.
When we use anything (religion, hair color, geography) to deliniate and seperate.....that's when we suffer.
Just some thoughts on a Thursday morning........
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Hi Portia,
What a sweet, smart lady you are.
I can’t see how any God would be bothered enough with us to be concerned about our acknowledgement. Why would he ask anything of us? I don’t understand how we can be that important. If we are important, we’re not doing very well at taking care of ourselves and our home, we need educating!
If God is the creator of us then why wouldn't he be concerned with us? Don't you consider your close friends important enough to care about? If you, a lowly human, could care then why couldn't God? Jesus expressly said if we dopey fathers try to give our children good things how much more could we expect the God of love to do for us.
Just because we are important to God doesn't mean we are competent.
My daughter is important to me, but I wouldn't trust her to take care of herself. She needs educating too. The father/daughter thing brings me to your next point.
One of the reasons I question any idea of an external higher power that is interested in us, is that, well, it seems too much like a parent/child relationship and in some ways, too close to human narcissism than I like. Do you see what I mean? I get uncomfortable with the ‘relationships’ involved.
How much of your discomfort comes from your experiences with people? Isn't it possible that the betrayal you have experienced colors your conception of God? Are you afraid that if God does exist and you put your trust in him that he would also betray you?
I believe there is a perfect God and I believe he especially wants a relationship with people who have been betrayed by their parents. I have seen the most miraculous healings of victims of the most terrible abuse. One of my dearest friends suffered a childhood of horrifying betrayal and abuse by parents, aunts, uncles, and siblings. I am getting choked up just writing about it. She also suffered through a marriage to a horrible abusive N of the worst kind. After all that, she is the sweetest, most open, well adjusted, loving lady you could ever meet. And she credits her relationship to her perfect Father for rescuing her. She is the only Christian in her family and the only one who escaped the evil that pervades it. Prior to her conversion she was suicidal and addicted. Now she is a blessing to everyone who knows her. And I know many stories like hers, many.
I also know people who aren't Christian who have escaped similar fates. Many of them are very good people as well. It is not so much a question of exterior behavior that I see. What I see in people like my friend is an interior healing and contentment and joy that is somehow missing in the others. And the more a person has yielded themselves to God, like my friend, the more complete is her healing.
I can only tell you what I have seen and experienced in others and myself. If I did not have my faith in a transcendent God I do not know how I would have handled this hell my brother has put us through.
Well actually I do know. For well over a year I allowed his slanders and damage to seperate me from God. I was angry with God for allowing this to happen and I leaned on my own strength to fight my brother. I was depressed, I didn't care whether I lived or died. Several times I thought of what cliff I could drive over to make sure my wife got my life insurance money and I got out of this rotten world. My brother might very well have already driven me to that if I hadn't realized who my Father is. He showed me what to do. He led me to fight for my family and my rights. He redeemed me. I didn't do it. A therapist didn't do it. My wife didn't even do it. I read the bible and I prayed and over the course of a few months I was redeemed from a defeated helpless victim into a righteousely angry lion who is determined to take a large bite out of my tormenter's ass. Whatever the outcome, my trust in Him has brought my joy back and my contentment.
Sorry if I got too personal but there was no stopping it. That paragraph about the winter of my discontent was hard to write. I haven't told too many people how bad it got. Lots of tears, still, when I think back on it.
Anyway that's why I believe there is a God.
Redemption, as vunil said, on a different thread I think; its a beautiful thing.
Excuse me I have to go blow my nose. :?
mudpuppy
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Sometimes, in my more lucid moments, I surmise this is the case, we are simply spiritual beings merely here, because this is what we have chosen to do. Parts of the all, like drops of the ocean, just playing in eternity. How may one argue with the fact that what ever this is, we are in the middle of it. Since the past goes forever and the future stretches into eternity, only the now has any possible significance.
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Hi vunil,
Oh, just realized something-- the reason why I don't believe in the creation story literally, or even combined with evolution, is because I think it's way less interesting and compelling than just regular old big-bang/evolution, which knocks my socks off utterly. Just seems to be more wondrous wondrousness in the latter, to me.
How do you know they are not different descriptions of the same events?
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..... sounds kind of like the big bang to me.
When the Hebrew is properly translated and understood the first chapter of Genesis and the scientific record are essentially inseperable.
mudpup
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In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth
Oh, I love that creation story. Very beautiful. It's the adam and eve one I am less enamored of. But as a metaphor I think it's cool. I read once that in the original text the apple was a fig. For some reason I think that's groovy-- there is something so earthy about a fig.
In general I like most of the bible stories if I get to take them figuratively. I know not everyone agrees!
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It's the adam and eve one I am less enamored of.
That reasons.org site I referred to previously has some very interesting stuff concerning mitochondrial DNA and the origin of man relating to Genesis. Adam and Eve might not be quite the story that has been interpreted (or maybe misinterpereted) through the years.
mud
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Hello Everyone:
Hiya Portia:
Re: faith
I don’t know why some people have it and others don’t. Don’t think I expressed that very well before.
No worries. I don't know the answer to that either. I believe some people choose faith and some people are born with it, just as some people choose to play the guitar and learn the skill, while others just begin playing it, by ear. Why? These are things I doubt we will ever know in this life.
I don’t have any principles which are absolute.
How about this one: It is never ok to abuse a child.
I bet there are others, if you really think about it. Anyhow, faith is not always be absolute. Some people lose faith....choose not to have it.
What about faith in myself?.... Anything could happen.
True. But generally speaking, your faith in yourself sounds quite strong.
I haven’t read all of the Bible, or the Talmud, or the Koran etc. They don’t interest me enough now, and I’ve given up reading books because I think I ‘should’ read them. Maybe I will read them one day. On that desert island.
Maybe. I have often thought that if I were doomed to a desert island and could only take one book with me, it would be the Bible. I find it interesting, stimulating, thought provoking and complex. I believe I could occupy much of my life with it (between hunting for grasshoppers and coconuts and playing the bamboo drum I'd construct. :D ).
I trust myself more now.
Hey.....this is a biggie. Some people don't trust themselves much at all, so you've got this racked up in your favour.
But you mean trust others? And if so with what? My life? My Self (which is more important to me than my life)?
Yes. There are so many degrees of trust, aren't there? There must be a level of trust you have with someone? Maybe your partner? You must have some level of trust with him, or you probably wouldn't be with him.
Therefore, you know a certain level of trusting someone and what that feels like. That's what I was meaning.
Honestly, no I don’t trust anyone with my Self. Because there is no-one that knows me like I know me. To trust someone else with my Self, my mind, would be illogical, lazy and irresponsible to me. Unless I was ‘mad’ and then I might have no choice (or would I?). Tricky subject, insanity.
Do you really trust anyone to that extent GFN, with your mind? Is this what faith is, feeling that God is responsible for what’s in your head? (trying to think how to phrase that better, but I can’t think how to, it’s a serious question though).
I think these are two different things. I think trusting someone here in this world, another human, is a big risk. I can trust people though, even though my trust in others has been broken very seriously, more than once. Still, I am willing to take the risk again and again and trust others, because there are many people I have trusted who have not broken that trust and I believe I learn from my errors and so... choose to trust more carefully after that. I don't think my trust in people is near what it is in God though.
Trusting God just does not seem like at all the same thing. The risk in trusting God is zilch. Because I believe He is perfect, He is incapable of breaking my trust. It is I who am much more likely to break His.
But my mind? For me, this is something no human can possibly ruin. Not as long as I put my mind in a place that trusts in God. This might be what people mean when they say: "I could never have survived without my faith in God". Because no matter what happens, what calamity, what horror, no one can destroy that faith, or the benefits it provides. It can only be given up by choice. No one can steal it, or wreck it, or contain it. It is one powerful asset without a price on it. It is not measurable. For me. And I don't think I'm special but not everyone feels their faith is as solid as that, so I guess, it could be said that my faith is very intense.
There are those who try to destroy people's faith or who abuse it, such as some cult leaders or false ministries out for power and fortune. Since I trust people less than God, I doubt I will ever fall into such a trap. I really do see religion and God as two different things. One is man made and the other....made man.
Thanks for wanting to comfort me GFN. If God thinks I’m wrong or bad, I don’t know that, so it literally doesn’t enter my thoughts, no problem. But I really don’t imagine he’d be interested one way or another.
If you had two children and one knew you and the other didn't (was stolen from you say) would you only be interested in just the one close to you, or would you always long for the other one too?
God is just as interested in those who do not know about Him, or believe in Him, or trust Him, or have faith in Him, as those who do, maybe more so. (??)
I wonder if God sees a difference between bad and good, right and wrong?
God knows everything and we know very little.
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Woops. That was me,
GFN
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Dear GFN,
I wish I could write like you.
I won't write a big long post praising every line you wrote, I'll just say that everything you wrote to Portia was perfect and true and struck a chord with me.
Like I told Patz and Stormy on another thread I'm proud to call you sister.
I really do see religion and God as two different things. One is man made and the other....made man.
Amen.
God bless. :)
mudpup
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I was trying to remember these words all day at work, so when I got home, I looked them up. They are by Enigma.
We came out from the deep
To learn to love, to learn how to live
We came out from the deep
To avoid the mistakes we made.
That's why we are here!
We came out from the deep
To help and understand, but not to kill
It takes many lives till we succeed
To clear the debts of many hundred years.
That's why we are here!
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Hello again:
Mudpuppy:
I don't know what to say to such praise? Except to thank you for saying such nice things. So thankyou very truly. It really is too much. :oops:
I doubt anything I write is perfect but it does come straight from my heart and my soul, so maybe that helps make it a little more striking?
I am very glad and I feel blessed to have the priviledge of your brotherhood. :D :D
I'm away for Easter now and I hope you and everyone here will have a happy, peaceful and healthy holiday. 8) (and I hope the Easter Bunny brings lot's of chocolate too!)
GFN
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I know GFN is away for Easter now but perhaps she will see this post when she returns. (I am assuming GFN is a girl. :? I can be a bear of little brain - just realized today Longtire is a guy. )
Perhaps the most frustrating/painful aspects of my damage from being raised by N's is that I struggle to feel/know the love of the God I believe in and serve. I have always believed in God - remember having debates with Him when I was 3 or 4. But feeling the security of His love has been a fleeting experience for me.
I grew up feeling despised by my N Mother and terribly ashamed. I tried to perform to make her love me, but everything I did made her despise me more. That's hard to understand as a kid. Her disdain frightened me - I used to sleep with my door locked.
I'm sure all this distortion blocks my ability to experience God. Perhaps I'm still performing for His love. Something I know I don't have to do - but the 18 inches from the head to the heart is a very, very long journey.
So, although my ego would love to be viewed as a wise "old timer" in the land of recovery, I'm still wrestling with the basics. That's just too bad...Thanks for that beautiful poem Stormchild. I guess that's the best we can be, 'a friend to man'. I'm grateful for a place to write my thoughts besides my journal.
Chutzbagirl
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Hello All:
Thanks so much for the compliment Mudpuppy. I hope eveyone here has a good holiday and a blessed Easter. :) My son and I will probably go to Sunrise Services if it doesn't rain. See you guys next week. Much love Patz
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Mud, thank you for your post on the previous page. I read it last night and went to sleep thinking about it. I think I understand a little better now, thanks to you and GFN for being so open. I'm glad you're still here and that your faith rescued you Mud. I was touched by your words and by your sorrow and hurt. We find comfort where we find it and wherever that is, that's good to me. I wouldn't want to threaten anyone's faith, if that was possible (doubtful I think). I like to understand the 'why' for things and this thread has helped me understand, so thank you. best, P
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Hi CG.
I know GFN is away for Easter now but perhaps she will see this post when she returns. (I am assuming GFN is a girl. :? I can be a bear of little brain - just realized today Longtire is a guy. )
8) :D 8)
Perhaps the most frustrating/painful aspects of my damage from being raised by N's is that I struggle to feel/know the love of the God I believe in and serve. I have always believed in God - remember having debates with Him when I was 3 or 4. But feeling the security of His love has been a fleeting experience for me.
I always had a sense that spiritual "things" existed and mattered too. I don't know where I got it, certainly not from my parents!
I grew up feeling despised by my N Mother and terribly ashamed. I tried to perform to make her love me, but everything I did made her despise me more. That's hard to understand as a kid. Her disdain frightened me - I used to sleep with my door locked.
Ouch! It's hard to deal with that as an adult, let alone a kid.
I'm sure all this distortion blocks my ability to experience God. Perhaps I'm still performing for His love. Something I know I don't have to do - but the 18 inches from the head to the heart is a very, very long journey.
What would it feel like for you to experience God? For me, I have to get very quiet and still, both physical and mental/emotional. Then I feel connected to myself without thinking too much. :wink: Then I let myself feel connected to everything and everyone. Then, he's there. It sounds easy the way I wrote it, but it isn't. I have to feel calm and connected. One day, I hope that is more my natural state, but for now, I have to work to get really quiet with no distractions. No booming voice for me, just very faint whipsers that I'm not sure that I've heard. I don't if if this helps at all. I think everyone has their own kind of relationship to God. 2c
So, although my ego would love to be viewed as a wise "old timer" in the land of recovery, I'm still wrestling with the basics. That's just too bad...Thanks for that beautiful poem Stormchild. I guess that's the best we can be, 'a friend to man'. I'm grateful for a place to write my thoughts besides my journal.
The more progress I make the more I just work with the basics. I take that as a good sign for me. I've stripped off all those layers of false protection I built up over the years and can get back to just a basic, average human being the way I started out.
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Some very critical questions that used to come up in seminar, and always seemed to lay the foundation for whatever work the individuals were to accomplish:
1) What do you want?
2) What are you doing to get it?
3) What are you defending?
4) Why are you afraid of your power?
I have found that by honestly answering these questions, and they are not easily answered, I come in touch with my own heart. Not an easy thing to do, after so many layers of protection have been utilized to shield my anguish. But for me, it is the direction I need to proceed, if I wish to grow and integrate. Just my thoughts.
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Hello all,
This is LM, I've been away for awhile because my computer broke and I ended up buying a new one, I don't have my spell checker working now so ... I'm trying to catch up. I haven't wrote a whole lot here over the past month since I've been contributing, but I would really like to add to this discussion.
When I was young, I knew something was not right with my family and I used to sit in my room alot and feel love. I didn't know what I was doing then but it was like meditating and feeling oneness.
I had noticed since I was young that there were some people in life that played a game, which in the past year I have come to realize that this is connected to narcissism disorder. When I was 23 (I am now 45) I read the New Testament for the first time and it was like a revelation. It seemed to me that the NT was explainging this "game" and how it worked. Things started making much more sense to me. Over the years I used the NT as a guide to life and how to deal with such people. I believed and trusted what was written in the NT and much of it is how to deal with others.
As we all know, narcissists can tend to leave you with wondering what is going on and who is the crazy one. I believe it taught me how to be an "overcomer". It gave me the support to LIVE LIFE. That's what my faith has done for me.
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Hi everyone:
LM, that's so nice for you about the NT and how it has helped you to be an "overcomer". I'm so glad for you! :D That is so nice to hear!
Chutzbagirl:
I know GFN is away for Easter now but perhaps she will see this post when she returns. (I am assuming GFN is a girl.
Yes, I am a female (but I'm not getting into that masculine/feminine thing again, so I'll leave it at that). :shock:
Perhaps the most frustrating/painful aspects of my damage from being raised by N's is that I struggle to feel/know the love of the God I believe in and serve.
I'm not sure, but I think what you are saying here is that you have sustained damage by being raised by N's and that you have connected this damage to your struggle to feel/know God. That struggle is frustrating/painful for you and due to your childhood? In other words, you might be thinking that if you had grown up in a "normal" family, you would not have sustained this damage.....and you would not be experiencing this struggling to feel/know God?
I'm not sure I agree with that idea because I know lot's of people who grew up in what they describe (and certainly it appears) as basically "normal" families, yet, some of them are having the same struggle you describe.
Are you sure it's "damage" from where you grew up/who raised you that's causing the trouble? Is it possible that a change in thinking may help?
I grew up feeling despised by my N Mother and terribly ashamed. I tried to perform to make her love me, but everything I did made her despise me more. That's hard to understand as a kid. Her disdain frightened me - I used to sleep with my door locked.
How awful for you! I'm sorry that your mom was so lacking in desire and ability to mother you and I'm really sorry for all of the pain that has caused you. No child should feel like that....unloved, unwanted, despised, and that has hurt you plenty, I am sure. (((((((((Chutzbagirl))))))))
Is this what you mean in regard to childhood damage and God.....you felt ashamed about not being loved by your mother....so.......maybe you still feel ashamed and unworthy of even...... God's love?
What did you do wrong to deserve not to be loved by your mother?
How was that your fault?
What have you done to deserve the same treatment by God?
I'm sure all this distortion blocks my ability to experience God.
You still have lot's of time to line up all the blocks.
Perhaps I'm still performing for His love. Something I know I don't have to do - but the 18 inches from the head to the heart is a very, very long journey.
Yes, and also......you kept trying to gain/earn/perform for your mother's love and what did it get you?
Maybe you are not even aware of some little voice that's telling you:
"Why waste your time? You did this before and it didn't work with your mother. It will never work with God!!! You're way too undeserving/unloveable/rotten/and your breath is bad".
But your conscious mind knows that you don't have to do anything to earn God's love and acceptance. Maybe the journey is from your unconscious to your conscious mind......less distance (in my case......a very short run...heehee :D ).
So, although my ego would love to be viewed as a wise "old timer" in the land of recovery, I'm still wrestling with the basics. That's just too bad...
This is a big basic though, if you really, unconsciously believe you do not deserve to be loved....if you cannot trust love....(which would be understandable because your mother is supposed to love you and she didn't. Therefore.....God is supposed to love you, maybe he doesn't?)
Have you tried daily affirmations/meditation/visualization/positive suggestion.....stuff like that?
Praying is a kind of meditation. What if you envision, inside your head, a white light or some other simple thing to focus on, and what if you were to practice hearing God's voice...telling you that you are good, your breath is fine, that you are indeed deserving and He indeed loves you?
Or if that seems too far-fetched.....practice hearing just...a loving, pleasant voice and try to believe that voice??
This will take time and effort but eventually.....you will feel better I bet.
Hope this helps a little.
GFN
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Hi GFN,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. You basically hit the nail on the head. I came to the conclusion today, in counseling, that I have projected my experience with N Mom onto God. I feel sad about that. If God was like my N Mom...Don't even want to go there. :shock:
Yeah, my "false self" is/was successful, productive, achieving, needless - I just can't fake it anymore. Guess that's a good sign but it doesn't feel good; it feels like failure. So when I don't have the forcefield of the "false self" working for me I start to feel the real underlying pain of the initial rejection. The rejection feels like it's coming from God but I "know" it's not. I don't even have the energy to meditate right now. I'm asking God to help me out with this, I'm tired of working so hard. I'm really tired.
I know God has had incredible grace with me or I would not be sane at all. I have enough experience with Him to believe He's going to pull me through this and I will experience true vitality and self-love in the future. Healing from the impact of N's takes a long time. I can have patience with myself today. :?
Thanks again. You're response was very helpful.
Chutzbagirl
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What an extraordinary thread! Thanks Philip for your unusually honest and open input. I loved the responses from all of the "usual (and highly intelligent) suspects". I will reread the thread for a number of reasons - your willingness to share with everyone, including myself (I am not registered and have only posted once before), and my own need to absorb what has been expressed so beautifully. I feel the need to do so now because of you people who have been through so much - and I thought I had "fruit loops" in my family. I have a story or two as well, but your stories blow me away. I dont know how to send you all "white light messages" and hugs but believe me the are in the universe to all of you. Peace, ALL
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Chutz,
you wrote,
I'm asking God to help me out with this, I'm tired of working so hard. I'm really tired.
That was me a few months ago. I was so tired of the weight on my shoulders put there by my N. Tired unto death. I didn't care whether I lived or died.
When I finally had to admit I couldn't go on is when He took over.
"Come to me all who are weary and heavy laden, I will give you rest... for my burden is easy and my yoke is light."
Being tired is good. It means you are coming to the end of your own resources and will have to lean on His.
God bless you Chutz. :)
mudpup
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What an extraordinary thread! Thanks Philip for your unusually honest and open input. I loved the responses from all of the "usual (and highly intelligent) suspects". I will reread the thread for a number of reasons - your willingness to share with everyone, including myself (I am not registered and have only posted once before), and my own need to absorb what has been expressed so beautifully. I feel the need to do so now because of you people who have been through so much - and I thought I had "fruit loops" in my family. I have a story or two as well, but your stories blow me away. I dont know how to send you all "white light messages" and hugs but believe me the are in the universe to all of you. Peace, ALL
To Guest 6--I feel that I have in the past offended some here. I have a tendency to make waves at times. Several years ago my daughter and I went through two series of very difficult and challenging seminars. Later I became a volunteer with the organization and participated for 2 years as a group leader. As volunteers, we were committed to service, for the benefit of the participants. But, it was difficult since we had only a few days to work with our small groups and achieve something. We were trained to ask the right questions, and leave room for the participants to answer them. It taught me to cut to the chase and risk failure. That was very difficult. The experience has changed me. I am willing to risk to achieve something worthwhile. I have a big problem with one person's tyranny over another. For myself, it took a high powered drill with a diamond bit to get through my layers of false assumptions. I wish I could say that I did it myself, truth is that I got alot of help, and at the time, it felt like I was being torn apart by wild dogs. I appreciate your input about this thread. I feel like I do not quite fit in here, but so far nobody has told me to get the hell out. And believe me, if I can post here, so can you. Risk and fly.
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Phillip,
I for one have never been offended by anything you've said. And I think you fit in just fine. There is a wide divergence of backgrounds here but we are united by our common 'thread' of learning about and healing from the Ns in our lives. I hope you don't "get the hell out". I can't say I always agree with your opinions but they never bore me. :) :wink:
mudpup
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If we can entertain each other as we learn, all the better. This is a wonderful board, and we the people make it so. Ultimately,we are all in this together, otherwise what's the point? Mere survival does NOT justify the trip IMO.
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If we can entertain each other as we learn, all the better. This is a wonderful board, and we the people make it so. Ultimately,we are all in this together, otherwise what's the point? Mere survival does NOT justify the trip IMO.
Phillip, I am also glad you're here. I seek out people who disagree with me, but in a caring way, for the different experience they share. I'm not saying I disagree with you about anything, just that the more variety and different paradigms from people, all the better in my book. Anyone else have this?
Your last sentence beautifully sums up how I am feeling these days. I want to stretch and go for the best stuff in life, even if (when :)) I fail or fall short.
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Some reflections from Gary Zukav's, "Thoughts From The Seat of The Soul."
"As you come to seek and see the virtues, strengths and nobilities of others, you begin to seek and see them in yourself also."
"Choose with wisdom, because the power is now fully in your hands."
"Trust the universe. Trusting means that the circumstance that you are in is working toward your best and most appropriate end. There is no when to that. There is no if to that. It is."
"The road to your soul is through your heart."
"Relax into the present moment."
"Every time you ask for guidance,you receive it. Every time you ask yourself, 'What is my motivation?' you ask the universe, 'Help me to see,' and help comes."
"Allow yourself to rest when you need it, to recognize when you become exhausted, and to know that even the best of us get tired."
"Where your attention goes, you go."
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Hi all:
Chutzbagirl:
I know God has had incredible grace with me or I would not be sane at all. I have enough experience with Him to believe He's going to pull me through this and I will experience true vitality and self-love in the future. Healing from the impact of N's takes a long time. I can have patience with myself today.
Three very positive statements and one logical one. I think are already moving forward! That is a great thing!
I understand tired. I believe it is possible to take our energy back through prayer, meditation, visualization, positive suggestion, affirmations, etc. These leave a clear channel open....allowing God/good stuff(for those who don't believe in God) in.
I'm glad you have a therapist who is helping you and I'm glad I helped a little. Keep posting Chutzbagirl! I think you've hit the nail when you say:
Healing from the impact of N's takes a long time.
That idea used to get me down but now I realize that everything I am learning on the way there, and all the sharing with others here, are wonderful positive gifts that squash out bits of the hurt and give me more and more energy to move forward. More good things!!
Phillip: You belong here just as much as anyone else. Please don't believe the few who have not treated you well. They are learning. Believe the rest who are responding to you with respect and kindness. They are learning too but might be a pace or two ahead of some. We are all in a different place in healing and I for one admire you for risking the way you do. Your posts challenge my thinking and that is good. I love the Gary Z reflections. I could easily pin some of them to my forehead (but...would it do any good???? :shock: :? :D ).
Guest6: Welcome. Keep posting as you feel comfy. :D Hope that will be more and more.
GFN