Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: delphine on March 29, 2005, 10:36:45 AM
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I'm having problems with the "happily ever after" stuff. I divorced my NXH, healed from a lifetime of N abuse by my Nmom, met a really truly wonderful guy, and now we are planning to buy a house togther. My BF has 2 sons, 1 in college, 1 starting in the fall. His XW sounds very much like an N if not a full out NPD person. She told he and his youngest son one day that she was leaving for another man. She had packed up the house in a single day so when her son came home to an empty house, that's how he found out she was leaving. His mom moved out that night- no counseling, no talking it over, no regrets, just "what I need to do for myself."
My BF works 60-70 hours a week and suddenly became a single parent. His youngest son is, in my opinion, a totally spoiled brat, having grown up with privelege but not emotional connection. He feels entitled to "speak his mind" which translates as tell everyone off constantly, insult us, and make demands as if we are servants, etc. I've always made it clear to BF that I would not step parent this kid. I've raised my daughter (now 11) with strict rules of social behavour and she is a joy to be around.
BF and son recently had a counseling appt in which son told BF how his only problem was his dad. My BF expressed how badly he felt when son didn't buy him a birthday present or card or even say Happy Birthday. Son's responses was "I only missed one birthday, big deal, why are you always on my case?" Well, the well intentioned Doc proposed a session with me included. I said that I would do it only if son acknowleges that part of the problem is himself (even if it is a small part), that he is willing to look at his part, and make changes to adjust to our new family. Right now with his "it's all your fault" attitude I don't see why I should attempt counseling with him. Why should BF spend $120/hr to have his bratty kid tell us how WE need to change to get along with HIM?
I've told BF that if my daughter ever adopts that attitude that I will tell her that at 18 she can leave all her problems behind (meaning, me) and pay for her own college or get her own place and job; that she can visit me and let me know how its working out. I think that's what BF should do with this kid. Why should he pay even more $$$ on counseling when life and reality will adjust his son's attitude for free?
I don't think his son is an N but I think he's been given no boundaries of what he can say. He has no close friends, never worked, gone to expensive summer camps, private schools, etc. I think working at a Burger King and struggling to pay rent would help him appreciate his dad. But BF is scared to do this, afraid he'll go live with his mom.
Well, if he gets accepted at college we won't really face this until summer vacation, but I really don't want this insulting, verbally abusive kid in my home for 2 months. Go ahead and tell me I'm too inflexible if that's how you see it. But I grew up with abuse and insensitivity, married it, and have been free of it for 8 years. I also don't want to subject my daughter to it- he puts her down as well as the rest of us.
Am I being reasonable/unreasonable?
Delphine
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Delphine
Was this kid like this before his mom left?
If he was like this before she left, do you think your BF or your wife produced this result, or was it a tag team effort?
I have some experience with a step son who turned eighteen and became a real pain in the you know what. He was dealing with issues of abandonment by his father at the age of five. Up until eighteen he had been very sweet. Then it was like somebody threw a switch. :evil: He refused to listen to us or friends or our pastor. Refused any counselling.
We eventually had to give him the boot. A few years in the real world considerably altered his view of things. He eventually finished high school and is a licensed minister. If we hadn't tossed him out I am not sure where he would be now.
One caveat, if he is depressed it could be dangerous to his health to just kick him out cold turkey. Our pastor advised us to hold off on kicking our son out at first because he was depressed. I think this may have saved his life. Once he was past the depression and was just your garden variety snot it was time for him to learn how to make it on his own.
But BF is scared to do this, afraid he'll go live with his mom.
What if he does go live with his mom? Living at home is hardly turning him into a model citizen. Is BF afraid for him at mom's because he is concerned about his son or because he doesn't want mom to look like the winner? :?
I don't think you're being unreasonable at all, especially where your dughter is concerned.
mudpup
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I've always made it clear to BF that I would not step parent this kid. I've raised my daughter (now 11) with strict rules of social behavour and she is a joy to be around.
You're not unreasonable to expect respect from this kid. However if you're buying a house with your BF, how can you avoid being the kid's step-parent?
BF and son recently had a counseling appt in which son told BF how his only problem was his dad. My BF expressed how badly he felt when son didn't buy him a birthday present or card or even say Happy Birthday. Son's responses was "I only missed one birthday, big deal, why are you always on my case?"
Is this therapist helping at all, or has the process just started? The kid is obviously hurting and hates himself. Is he also in individual therapy?
Well, the well intentioned Doc proposed a session with me included. I said that I would do it only if son acknowleges that part of the problem is himself (even if it is a small part), that he is willing to look at his part, and make changes to adjust to our new family. Right now with his "it's all your fault" attitude I don't see why I should attempt counseling with him. Why should BF spend $120/hr to have his bratty kid tell us how WE need to change to get along with HIM?
If the kid could accomplish what you demand, there wouldn't be any need for therapy. I'd go there and tell the therapist exactly how fed up I was. Let the therapist deal with the fallout.
He has no close friends, never worked, gone to expensive summer camps, private schools, etc. I think working at a Burger King and struggling to pay rent would help him appreciate his dad. But BF is scared to do this, afraid he'll go live with his mom.
I think he loathes himself and is desperate for someone to help him ALTHOUGH HE WILL RESIST IT. That is the way of the adolescent. I hope some professional can help him.
Anyway, there have to be behavioral boundaries and limits. This is about your BF being too wimpy. The kid desperately needs limits set. He's practically begging for it.
bunny
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Thank you both, Mudpup and Bunny, two very useful perspectives.
Mud, you asked some good questions:
Was this kid like this before his mom left?
If he was like this before she left, do you think your BF or your wife produced this result, or was it a tag team effort?
I never met my BF until after his XW left, but according to BF, son has always been moody, angry, sullen. My BF worked and his XW was an at home mom, in charge of parenting. BF claims that he had wanted his son to get counseling when he was younger but XW did not. XW's parenting style was to be permissive (accepting him for who he is). After I got to know BF well, I suggested that he set boundaries and teach social skills; son had no table manners at all when I met him although they were an upper midclass family. BF had to teach his son other rudiments like hello and goodbye. Everyone in BFs family is very well mannered, including his oldest son, who must have learned by copying his dad. Somehow, younger son did not choose to adopt manners and was 16 before BF told him he had to. (Since son knows these are my suggestions you can see why he resents me.) So, I think XW produced/enabled his selfishness and BF deferred to her decisions.
Thank you for sharing about you stepson, that is what I've seen my friends do with surly kids and it seems to work. Son is not depressed but he might BECOME depressed if he has to actually work...
BF is afraid of both of his boys leaving him, joining their mom and her new H; not returning home. Personally I don't think this is likely, and the youngest son is not likely to get a warm reception with her new H.
I don't think it would take more than a few months on his own to crack open his arrogance. He's a smart kid, good grades, no drugs.
Bunny, you asked
However if you're buying a house with your BF, how can you avoid being the kid's step-parent?
That's why I've wanted to wait until he went to college; I'd rather he be an adult visitor in our home, not a boy I am responsible for. But maybe it's still like step parenting.
Son saw a therapist alone for a few months, quit that, and son and BF have seen this guy together 3 times. Son used the individual therapy to vent his anger at his dad. She never asked about his mom (not very astute). At least this new therapist pointed out to son that his anger at me might be displaced anger at his mom. I agree, he must be hurting, but most therapists will tell you that if a kid is that old (almost 18), and doesn't choose therapy for himself there isn't much a therapist can do.
You are so right, he does need help . What I've said to BF is that his door is locked from the inside, we can't force him to open up, but if you quit shoving food under the door he'll have to come out eventually.
Does that make sense?
I also intuitively suspect that son is holding his mother's secrets. SOMETHING must have been going on before his mom packed up and left. She remarried 5 days after the divorce. I wonder if son, who had no social life, always at home, saw and heard things going on that he feels guilty for not telling dad.
I will think about what you said about going to therapy anyway but I am angry, protective of my BF and don't want to make thingd worse. He IS being too wimpy, thanks for that! But his kindness is also very sexy... sigh..
Delphine[/quote]
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That's why I've wanted to wait until he went to college; I'd rather he be an adult visitor in our home, not a boy I am responsible for. But maybe it's still like step parenting.
I can understand your waiting until this obnoxious person has gone to college.
Son used the individual therapy to vent his anger at his dad. She never asked about his mom (not very astute). At least this new therapist pointed out to son that his anger at me might be displaced anger at his mom.
Even so, the son probably has a lot of reasons to be seriously angry with his dad. He may blame dad for not holding the marriage together. He may blame dad for not seeing limits with him. He may blame dad for working 60 hours/week. His anger is okay. The problem is acting out rather than managing anger in a mature way. A therapist may listen to a lot of anger venting and after trust is established, then starts confronting how the boy deals with anger.
I agree, he must be hurting, but most therapists will tell you that if a kid is that old (almost 18), and doesn't choose therapy for himself there isn't much a therapist can do.
A therapist who is good at working with troubled adolescents might be able to gain this young person's trust.
You are so right, he does need help . What I've said to BF is that his door is locked from the inside, we can't force him to open up, but if you quit shoving food under the door he'll have to come out eventually.
Does that make sense?
I would initially try shoving different foods under the door. Here's my take on this kid. He is testing everyone to see if they, too, will abandon him. He is acting out in the worst way to see if his Dad will also leave him. The test is whether his Dad will continue to care no matter how much of a b*#*(# he is. The problem with this test is that it is backfiring and is quite unproductive and obnoxious. In fact, the kid's worst fear of abandonment is being contemplated by you and his father.
I just hope the therapist can earn his trust and start working with him. You and your BF will have to set limits. The BF has to be a real male role model here, stonewalling anything that goes past the limit. Your BF will have to tolerate this kid's projections of devaluing, hate, shame, and all the stuff that he feels about himself. Tolerating a projection isn't tolerating behavior, though. Tolerating a projection means not reacting with a retaliation but with calmness. Limits and consequences are still enforced for acting out.
I also intuitively suspect that son is holding his mother's secrets. SOMETHING must have been going on before his mom packed up and left. She remarried 5 days after the divorce. I wonder if son, who had no social life, always at home, saw and heard things going on that he feels guilty for not telling dad.
You may be right.
bunny
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Hi Delphine and bunny,
The problem we had was the age issue. Our son was immature emotionally for his age. Unfortunately, physically and legally he was an adult. So even though they act like adolescents there isn't a whole lot of control that can be exerted if they won't help themselves voluntarily. Spanking is no longer an option when they're as big as you are. :? :shock:
In fact there just aren't a lot of options at that age. Its a lot harder to put the genie back in the bottle when they know they can pretty much do what they want, especially if they sense you are unwilling to apply the boot.
Obviously, the ideal thing would be for him to be motivated to go to counseling. If he's not, you may have a test of how strong your relationship with your BF is coming up. Make sure you and BF are on the same page. My MIL lost a marriage to a cunning and ruthless little step son.
I hope you and Bf can discuss this thing without BF defending his territory or thinking you are interfering.
Good luck.
mudpuppy
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mudpup,
If the child is now an adult, that's it. They can be told that financial support is over and they're on their own.
In the case of delphine, some therapy is in place already. The boy is showing up for the session. That tells me that he is hoping someone will help him.
bunny
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bunny,
That tells me that he is hoping someone will help him.
Let's hope so. It is NO, and I mean NO, fun having to kick somebody you love out of your house, no matter how obnoxious they're acting. I've done it twice, and I hope that's all.
Our daughter says she wants to live with us forever so I guess I don't have to worry about her. :wink: Yeah, right.
Seems like sons are usually the ones that need the boot in the arse, huh?
Most girls can't wait to leave, it seems like.
mudpup
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Hi Mud and bunny,
The kid will voluntarily go to therapy, but he will not do any homework given (he says he's not a ginea pig), he won't allow any conversation about what HE could do differently, or how HE contributes to any problems. He has no friends because the kids at his school are beneath him. His social skills are perfect but his dad keeps harping on him for no reason. He doesn't date because his dad won't let him (he asked out a 14 yr old girl whose parents won't let her date and BF forbid him to sneak behind their backs).
Bunny, the first therapist he saw is a friend of mine, very nurturing person, but I think she did him no good at all.
I don't see it as us booting him out but as us respecting his rights as an adult. If he really thinks all his problems are his dad's fault, he should be given a chance to test out that theory. See if the "problems" end or mysteriously travel to new situiations. I've told BF that I'm comfortable with him being in our home if he is willing to see that we ALL need to learn to adjust to each other. I'll commit to therapy if he will commit to owning some of the disharmony.
To make things messier, I came home when I was 16 to find my mother gone, just like him. I understand all too well the raging anger. I watched it in my brother, too. I have compassion for this kid but to me he's only looking for targets to blame, not solutions. I am not volunteering for that, and not offering my daughter either.
My BF has stood by me every time I've made this clear, and I love him but I'm willing to lose him if he feels he needs to sacrifice himself to appease his son. My BF worked, cooked, grocery shopped, did home repairs, and drove his son to a gym 40 min away from the home 4 times a week. He has spent enough of his life giving all to his family with no thanks. They were raised to expect this of him, to expect dad to provide it all and ask nothing. He is very good to my daughter and I and you can still see the amazement in his eyes when we show gratitude or do something nice back.
If his son is hurting, how much hurt is he allowed to inflict on others; how understanding are we supposed to be?
I want to understand him but at a distance....like maybe from across town...
Delphine
ps. thank you so much for your generous time and consideration. This is more helpful than I can ever say..
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I'm 28. And I was kicked out actually 17 in the middle of my senior year. I came home and found my clothes in plastic Hefty bags on the curb. Then my parents reported me missing. Then I stayed with a friend for a few days. Then they came and got me, then shipped me to my oldest sisters. I left her home at 18 on the dot. (more drama at her house)
I struggled. I worked 2 jobs. I bought my own used car. I learned to grocery shop and feed myself. And I survived just fine.
Now I have a great job, make good money, have a nice apt. with furniture and everything else I need. I worked for ALL OF IT. And believe me I appreciate it more. When you're handed everything you don't appreciate it.
A little blood, sweat, & tears never killed a teenager/young adult. Maybe some dirt on his knees will be good for him.
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Everybody survives one way or another when they leave home.
Leaving with a gentle nudge from a caring parent is a whole lot different to being tossed out by an uncaring one.
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Thanks Andrea. It really helps to hear that.
Kaz, I don't quite get your point, would you please say more about what you are thinking? I really appreciate your taking the time to read this through and consider it so I really want to know how you, and others, see my situation. Unbiased feedback from those who "don't have a dog in this fight " is really helpful.
Delphine
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The kid will voluntarily go to therapy, but he will not do any homework given (he says he's not a ginea pig), he won't allow any conversation about what HE could do differently, or how HE contributes to any problems. He has no friends because the kids at his school are beneath him. His social skills are perfect but his dad keeps harping on him for no reason.
Well he sounds severely impaired by shame and rage. It's a very tough case. A therapist will have a really hard time here. But if the therapist specializes in adolescents maybe he can earn this kid's trust. If not, then I guess this kid can be on his own. Your daughter can't be exposed to him. I don't think the therapist needs to be nurturing at all. Trust is created (in this case) by firmness, tolerance, empathy, and humor. I don't see how homework would work, as this kid is obviously not going to do it. Interestingly he seems to obey his father although resenting him. He isn't dating because his father forbade it.
I don't see it as us booting him out but as us respecting his rights as an adult. If he really thinks all his problems are his dad's fault, he should be given a chance to test out that theory. See if the "problems" end or mysteriously travel to new situiations.
He will still blame his father. Logic doesn't enter into this. ultimately it's up to you guys whether to let him live with you.
I've told BF that I'm comfortable with him being in our home if he is willing to see that we ALL need to learn to adjust to each other. I'll commit to therapy if he will commit to owning some of the disharmony.
Although this is reasonable, he can't commit to something like that. And it may be that he has to leave.
To make things messier, I came home when I was 16 to find my mother gone, just like him. I understand all too well the raging anger. I watched it in my brother, too. I have compassion for this kid but to me he's only looking for targets to blame, not solutions. I am not volunteering for that, and not offering my daughter either.
I find it quite interesting that you are joining a family with the same awful maternal abandonment. And you succeeded with your daughter, but found a man who failed with his son.
My BF worked, cooked, grocery shopped, did home repairs, and drove his son to a gym 40 min away from the home 4 times a week. He has spent enough of his life giving all to his family with no thanks. They were raised to expect this of him, to expect dad to provide it all and ask nothing. He is very good to my daughter and I and you can still see the amazement in his eyes when we show gratitude or do something nice back.
Has your BF been wimpy for the entire time? Because this son has no respect.
If his son is hurting, how much hurt is he allowed to inflict on others; how understanding are we supposed to be?
You can stop being understanding the minute he turns 18. If he's already 18, the understanding can stop today if you choose. You aren't responsible for him anymore and if he's just an ungrateful loser, then goodbye. He will have to figure out how to deal with life as we all do. If he feels bitter, that's tough.
bunny
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Hi Delphine and everyone:
This sure seems like a tough nut to crack. On one hand, you have every right to expect to be treated with respect by your BF's son, especially if he will be residing in your joint home, even if that is only for a couple of months in the summer. You understand how his son has developed his attitude and you empathize with his feelings which you see as due to the trauma of his mother leaving in such a sudden, heartless and selfish manner. It's not unreasonable to want to protect your daughter from such a negative influence, as this boy seems to project, and you are somewhat willing to try therapy (although I also think it is unrealistic to expect anything from your BF's son in advance and the best thing might be to go ahead and voice your feelings in therapy).
On the other hand, I'm trying to see things from the son's point of view too. He's been angry for eons and it isn't going away any time soon. His dad has been trying to soothe him, the best way he knew how and his son has been milking that, as any kid will, given the opportunity (without being taught otherwise). Now you come along and try to "teach" him stuff he doesn't want to know, that his dad has allowed him not to learn. You're taking his dad away from him (in his mind maybe) and if you hadn't shown up, he'd be happily going about his business. He's going to therapy, which might be a biggggggg deal for him and he might be hoping to get his dad to see how YOU have come along and recked everything????
If you join in the therapy sessions......who knows what position he will take? He might clam up, he might let YOU have it, he might try a different approach or he might just quit going??? He sounds like a guy with a brain and he's not in jail yet so that tells me that he's doing some things right. Maybe he'll pleasantly surprise everyone and begin to open up and take some responsibility for his behaviour? Maybe not.
Your BF has stood by you, so far, you say, so the hope is that he will continue to try his best to do that. My guess is.....there is no way to predict what will happen, but if you do decide to go to therapy and voice your feelings, he might actually hear you, if you try to show empathy for him first and try to help him see that you are on his side too.
I have had the experience of setting a limit with my child and having that child leave because the limit was unacceptable (in my child's opinion). My child is now an adult and has actually said that I was "right about a lot of things" and other knock-me-over-with-shock-like comments. :shock: :D
Kids grow up regardless. No one is going to die in therapy. Giving it a good go before taking up residence, although scarey, may be the best thing for all.
I wish I had something more useful to offer but that's about it. I hope it all works out for you.
GFN
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Hi bunny, thanks for all the time you are taking.
This is so true
he sounds severely impaired by shame and rage. It's a very tough case. A therapist will have a really hard time here. But if the therapist specializes in adolescents maybe he can earn this kid's trust. If not, then I guess this kid can be on his own. Your daughter can't be exposed to him. I don't think the therapist needs to be nurturing at all. Trust is created (in this case) by firmness, tolerance, empathy, and humor.
And it IS interesting that he isn't disobeying his dad at all just disrespecting him. I hadn't thought about that before. Can you think of why he might be verbally hateful yet still unrebellious?
I find it quite interesting that you are joining a family with the same awful maternal abandonment. And you succeeded with your daughter, but found a man who failed with his son.
Really!!!! I think that we are given lessons to resolve over and over; either God loves repetition or our life is just like that movie Groundhog Day.
I don't think of my BF as wimpy, although that is a superficially accurate description, I think he is one of those guys who has love confused with sacrifice. He is a successful manager and holds his own very well professionally but perhaps tries to "manage" his personal life, ie, take too much responsibility. Only in life he doesn't get a big bonus and pay raise for taking on more than others. He gets called wimpy.
Son is 6 weeks away from eighteen. He's been dealt a lousy hand but so was I at his age. I wonder if I was that arrogant, I don't know, I might have been I left home at 17, early college admissions, and was glad to be away from home.
Bunny, you seem to know a lot about therapy, do you work in the field or have you studied it?
Wish you lived in our town, you have a lot of insight into teens.
Delphine
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GFN, you made me lolol!
No one is going to die in therapy.
You are so right, why don't I just go and see what happens, thank you!
thanks...
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Hi Delphine,
Sorry, I'll try again. I was basically responding to Andrea who (rightly so) is proud of her achievements since she was 'kicked out' of home. But I bet she would rather have not left that way. Isn't it better to have supportive, caring parents who don't kick you out of home? (There's the rub, if parents are supportive and caring, then generally there's no need for a child to be kicked out).
There are a few things that worry me.
You said you "would not step-parent this kid". Seems to me that he's part of the BF package because he still lives with him. Just as your daughter is part of your package that you want your BF to accept. Their ages are irrelevant.
You also want son to "make changes to adjust to our new family life". But you've excluded him from the family already by saying that you won't be his step-parent. I don't get it.
Then you go on to say that your BF should do this and that with his son. Hang on, I thought you didn't want to be involved with the son's parenting?
But you still want son to do as you say and have respect for you and your daughter?
I think this is more to do with you and BF, Delphine. I get the feeling that son is just the scapegoat.
Sorry if I'm being harsh, I really don't want you to think that removing son is the only way to solve your situation. Like it or not, he's your BF's son.
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Delphine:
I thought I might weigh in on this topic. I have a neice who is similar in attitude. I think the haughtiness, the "I am above you attitude" is just a front and wall to protect himself from the hurt he has experienced from his mom and dad. If he is obnoxious enough then he is protected. Therefore no friends, no girl friends etc. Having said that, even though he is exerting his independence in a negative way, it is still a statement of independence on his part. In having that independence he has to take responsiblity for the consequences.
If a rank stranger came into your house and acted this way what would your response be to this child? I would bet that you would say, this is how this house operates, if you want to make independent decisions that are not good for you then these are the consequences.
One other point, if you and your BF buy this house, what makes you think that this young man is going to stay in college and not return on your doorstep? Clearly going to college means being able to manage yourself, your time and be purpose driven, when he obviously lacks.
Once your life is hooked financially to your BF and new stepson, you are in for the duration, warts and all. Just my 2c. Patz
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Thank ypou Patz and Kaz,
Kaz, you had some really good questions that made me look harder:
You said you "would not step-parent this kid". Seems to me that he's part of the BF package because he still lives with him. Just as your daughter is part of your package that you want your BF to accept. Their ages are irrelevant.
You also want son to "make changes to adjust to our new family life". But you've excluded him from the family already by saying that you won't be his step-parent. I don't get it.
Then you go on to say that your BF should do this and that with his son. Hang on, I thought you didn't want to be involved with the son's parenting?
But you still want son to do as you say and have respect for you and your daughter?
Good points... I have a mom who remarried 8 times. I consider the ones she married when I was living at home my stepparent, the others are just my mom's husband (I do have some ruder terms.. lol but I digress)
As parents we are responsible for minor children but not adult children. I really enjoy BFs older son, he visits, has stayed at my house (I have more room). We trade emails. I am an artist and he loves hanging in my studio. He's discussed his parental situation with me, I tell him what I think when he asks, but he doesn't have to do what I say because he's an adult. I'm more mentor, friend, sounding board than step parent.
Early on BF discussed his concerns about younger son with me- concerned that he might not have what it takes to be a successful man. Hence our conversations about social skills began.
Kaz, this kid was mostly raised when I met him, and I think he still has the potential to become a fine adult. I think his problem stems from being over indulged. I see putting him out on his own as the CARING thing to do, the one that will give him a chance to self correct his beligerence and misdirected anger. My dilemma is... well...hmmm hemmm, it IS also self serving on my part, I'd rather fast forward to his mid 20s when he's grown up some!
I expect ALL adults, relatives or no, to show respect for my daughter and myself in our home. Verbal abuse is not tolerated. Feelings are respected. Do you have your own household yet (you sound young to me, sorry if I am wrong..) ? It makes a big difference to be able to come home to a mutually supportive, emotionally safe environment.
I have a rule here, no guns in my house. Gun owners are welcome but their guns are not. If BFs son wants to come home from college, he cannot bring a gun. I consider his verbal abuse just like a gun- it hurts, it wounds, it is used to protect oneself by hurting others.
How would you solve this problem; can you see any alternatives?
Patz, the reference to your neice was very insightful, thank you. Did her parents find ways to help her stop?
You also brought up
f you and your BF buy this house, what makes you think that this young man is going to stay in college and not return on your doorstep?
Really, that's why I am talking this out with BF now. I plan to show him ALL your responses- so Son supporters, speak up!!!!My whole point is that I'd rather have him show up feeling a bit deflated because right now his ego doesn't fit through the door...I am banking on other people besides myself and BF giving him some of the same feedback, ya know, "hey, buddy, lighten up."....I mean, nobody wants to hear this "my problems are all about you" garbage. I'm counting on his intelligence (he really is very smart and can be funny) kicking in when he has more incentive to change.
I think that all people who get fucked over in life get a bit controlling, and blame is his weapon, but how DO we get him to lay it down?
Again, thanks to both of you for your wonderful insights, it's very helpful
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Delphine
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Hi Delphine,
As parents we are responsible for minor children but not adult children.
Agreed, but what if a child needs a bit of extra parenting to make up for a deficit from the earlier years? I'm not saying that you're responsible for him, his father is. He's the one who should be doing the catch-up lessons, maybe this is where you're feeling frustrated and trying to force the issue?
Of-course you want to have your relationship with his father foremost, but he's come with the baggage. It's unfair to make him choose between you two. Is this what it's about?
to be able to come home to a mutually supportive, emotionally safe environment.
Maybe this is what son wants also? He's only 17.
Thanks for the 'young' compliment! I'm actually an old hand at the household thing, over 30 years experience and with adult kids.
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Hi Kaz,
How CAN you parent someone who doesn't want it, who resents and rejects all offers of help as interference? If you even ask son "how was your day?" he is likely to answer, "Quit prying into my business" (allthough sometimes he will answer).
This is what it's like to spend time with him:
Last summer, BF, son and I visited a college out of town. I had some business in that town and at the time really was trying to get to know son. He was insulting, rude, and nasty the entire time. When we pointed out good aspects of this college, he told us how stupid our opinions were. He and BF took the tour together, I met them later. By this time he liked the school for many of the same reasons we had pointed out, but he was still nasty on the ride home. He now says this is a college he really likes, but never thanks us for suggesting it, or taking our time to tour it.
One night son, BF, my 11 yr old daughter and I played cards, my daughter was winning. He told her off, how she wasn't playing by the right rules. He got the rule book out and she was right. Stomped into his room. BF tried to talk this out with him but he views this as "you are always taking her side."
What do you think we can offer this kid that would help?
Oh, he ALSO can't get along with his grandparents or uncle's family. They have all told me that it isn't me, that son is hard to get along with, has never been close or communicative to them either. We've even looked into whether he has Asperger's Syndrom, Defiant Personality Disorder, etc. Does not. He has the capacity to change his behavour but won't.
My BF loves his son so much it hurts, and I would support him in anything that could help him but NOTHING has. I was the one who suggested therapy.... that's been worthless so far. If the kid had his father "all to himself" he wouldn't be happy. When they are home alone together he is in his room with the door shut.
Do you have any practical suggestions? Because giving him a chance
to be able to come home to a mutually supportive, emotionally safe environment can't work, since he won't allow MUTUAL.
Delphine
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delphine:
Unfortunately, no, my neice modeled her life after her N mother and N father (my brother). When she smiles, you can see the anger just under the surface. She is aggressive and overbearing. I remember going home once, and I overheard my niece relate to her friend, "you know it is just like a light switch with the guys I date, after six months I am tired of them." This is not a person who is 16. My niece goes through relationships like kleenex. The only ones that really stay around is to serve her purposes and are sychophants (hangers on). She come from a wealthy family so she does as she pleases. She is a N in progress due to her upbringing. My niece is also very smart, and self absorbed. Well, just like you I owe that to their age. However my niece is going on 26 so as the saying goes "the die is cast."
I think my nieces overbearing attitude, haughtiness and arrogance is a brick wall to protect herself. She has been hurt by her mom and dad and their self absorption with their own needs. I remember going home for Christmas and my brother and I went Christmas shopping. My brother told me he would "utilize" my niece do help him do the rest of his shopping. I thought the word "utilize" was very unusual inasmuch when you make a request of someone it is not to "utilize" them. I think the word utilize connotes the absorption of their energy and talents for your benefit. It would have been more approprite to state, "I think I will ask her if she would like to come along with us to help if she has time." So you see the genesis of my nieces behavior has been abetted by her parents.
Patz
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DELPHINE-Years ago, when my daughter was in her teens, her favorite term for me was "nerd or dweeb." At the time, my boss, who was an ex-school teacher, said to me, "You are lucky she is even talking to you." She was making reference to my daughter's age.
I know nothing of the history of your family. I am assuming that his parents are divorced. I know nothing of their familial history. But upon cursory glance, it appears that he has some serious unresolved childhood issues that are manifesting as anger which is overshadowing a great deal of emotional pain.
Pushing him in any direction probably makes things worse. I would say that you are going to have to bite the bullet and wait it out. He will quickly learn in college that the cause and effect of his "acting out" won't work there for very long. Apparently it has been working for him at home. Pushing at him will only serve to widen the gap IMO.
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delphine,
My hobby is reading about psychoanalysis. I don't know much about teens except I was one. I acted out, but not like this kid. My parents wouldn't have put up with it. I would have been terrified to behave as he does. I don't think terror is what a parent wants to evoke; but respect tinged with fear of parental disapproval sounds okay.
Your BF needs to set clear limits, enforce them, and not tolerate what he's been tolerating. If it means the son gets kicked out at age 18, then that is how it will be. You have a lot of leverage right now because you have his 18th birthday as a deadline by which his behavior improves or he's out. His choice. This needs to be done with no anger at all. Just a neutral 'you made the choice and we assume you will make it out there.' If the kid wants to discuss it IN A THERAPY SESSION that is okay. Otherwise there is no room for discussion. He behaves better or he's out. That's the deal. Arguing is a waste of time, it's just stalling and he will test to see if his dad caves. His dad must not cave ever again. He's failed every test so far (sorry, I'm sure he's a nice guy) but starting today he can set limits.
There are two issues going on: (1) Understanding this boy's tragedy and inner torture; (2) His behavior. I can understand and empathize with the trauma this kid experienced in his mother choosing some guy over him. That is devastating. So what. That doesn't preclude his having to behave like a human being. If we all got to abuse others because crap happened to us, it would be pretty bad.
I don't know the specifics of how your BF reacts to this boy's abuse, and the mutual projections are pretty complicated. So I hope this therapist can help or you can find a better one (if it's worth it).
One book that is kind of interesting although it's about little children is Object Relations Family Therapy by Scharff and Scharff. You learn all about the way children internalize things.
bunny
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Delphine,
Guest wrote,
He will quickly learn in college that the cause and effect of his "acting out" won't work there for very long. Apparently it has been working for him at home.
If he learns that the behvior that works at home doesn't work in college you are possibly more likely to find him out of college and living at home, than to find his behavior altered.
It would be nice if therapy 'fixed' him or father time or the school of hard knocks. But whatever the outcome this surely seems like something that absolutely needs to be resolved before you marry, buy a house or make any permanent commitment. If you don't, you may be living in a mine field or worse; you might be engaged in trench warfare. That's not fair or healthy to either side of the equation.
If its not resolved, its not that hard for a smart kid to ruin a marriage, if he is so inclined. Its pretty hard to have the Brady Bunch if Peter views Mrs. Brady and Cindy as the enemy who ruined his cozy nest, or vice versa for that matter.
mudpup
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Hi again:
I have had the experience of setting a limit with my child and having that child leave because the limit was unacceptable (in my child's opinion).
Rereading some pages of this thread and I realized I should clarify here. My child was 17 (nearing 18th birthday) at that time and so even though I used the term "child", it is more accurate to say.. approaching adulthood. I guess to me my children will always be my children, even grown up. I hope that's the mother, not the N in me. :oops:
So much to read here Delphine. That's a good thing. Gives you lot's to consider. Hope it is all helping.
GFN
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Thank you ALL so much! I have read each post 5 times and BF and also my best friend are reading and marveling at the insight, concern and generous donation of your time.
Patz, I am sorry to hear about your neice. It was really chilling to read
My brother told me he would "utilize" my niece do help him do the rest of his shopping.
She is just treating people the way she has been treated. I wonder if this is at the root of my BFs son's attitude. I never met his mom and have no right to judge her, but what do you think about a woman who left her son and husband for another man "because it's something I have to do for myself?" And since then, she pays no support, got him no birthday gift (told him the book he wanted was too expensive) yet calls to tell him how her DOGS are doing-?????
Guest, this is absolutely true
Pushing him in any direction probably makes things worse.
He is hyper sensitive and reactive to nudging or suggestions, let alone pushing!
Bunny, thank you for so much consideration. BF and I will be talking over your recommendations very seriously this weekend. And THIS reinforces something I've thought
Otherwise there is no room for discussion. He behaves better or he's out. That's the deal. Arguing is a waste of time,
BF likes to have looooong talks with son and son complains that his dad 'lectures' him too much. BF, in trying to be fair and reasonable, is giving his power as a parent away. That is how I see it... perhaps reading it from someone else will make it sound clearer to him.
You also commented
I don't know the specifics of how your BF reacts to this boy's abuse,
BF has tried almost everything but he primarily tries reasoning with son in long, drawn out talks, in which son gets equal time to "speak his mind" ie belittle his dad. BF also shouts him down sometimes. What I don't see happening enough is enforcing consequences, no discussion. Son is so quiet and withdrawn much of the time that BF is actually happy that son is expressing anything and usually misses how nasty it is. Son throws barbs and snide putdowns in with jovial humor. it's like poisoned fruit. He also rages; that's more obvious.
Mud, I hoped you were still following this since you have experience and I think you understand best of all how conflicted I feel taking such a hard stance. You also made me LOL with
If its not resolved, its not that hard for a smart kid to ruin a marriage, if he is so inclined. Its pretty hard to have the Brady Bunch if Peter views Mrs. Brady and Cindy as the enemy who ruined his cozy nest
funny, but true!!! I think you said your MIL was in this situation, I am sorry to hear about that. I would LOVE to hear more about how you booted your SS, did he visit after that, what was the process and how long did it take him to realize that he gave you no other choice? Also, your MILs situation. I am talking about this very openly w/BF, and have said repeatedly that son is the only thing I can ever see us break up over. I really don't want that and neither does he. We are so compatible in many ways and he is so GOOD to my daughter. I am good to his older son and I've tried very hard with young son, I REALLY have...
GFN, I know it must have broken your heart to have your son leave rather than accept a reasonable boundary. If you have time to tell us some details about what you went thru, I think BF could feel less alone. One of the things I LOVE about BF is that, like you, his kids are always his BOYS. I wish my mom cared about me like that.
you said
So much to read here Delphine. That's a good thing. Gives you lot's to consider. Hope it is all helping.
So very much!!! It's a huge issue and one that sometimes outsiders can see better than those close to us both. And sometimes its just great to read rather than hear someone's feedback- more time tio digest it slowly.
Thanks and blessings to you alll, please keep adding your comments when you have time,
Delphine
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Hi Delphine and all again:
I'm glad you are considering all the input here and I am impressed that your BF is considering this too. It sounds like you will have lot's to discuss and consider together and the discussion will likely help.
When my child left, I felt devestated. I felt like a failure as a parent. Something inside me broke. It was like losing my left arm (and I'm left handed). It was heartbreaking and an awful experience. I wanted to run after my child and say: "Come back, never mind. Do as you like." but my brain would not allow me to do that (poor one little functioning brain cell that is).
The truth is.....I did not remain devestated for long. I am not a failure as a parent. Actually, I'm a very good parent. Nothing inside me is permanently broken and my left arm is still where it has always been. My heart did feel broken and it was an awful experience but it was also a necessary experience. It hurt me tremendously but it is what my child needed. I lived and so did my child. It was necessary for my child to learn and grow.
That's what happened. My child learned and grew and later, almost thanked me (not quite but close).
Some people call it tough love. Some people say it's setting limits.
I say....it's all what we are willing to tolerate.
I was not willing to tolerate a defiant, lounging, hotel-like-guest, who was taking advantage of the situation, who refused to look for a job for the second summer in a row, who had no intentions of helping with any chore without causing a war, who was leaving messes about the house, while I was out working, and who was quite intelligent and able bodied and capable of finding a summer job and helping out a little, when occasionally asked.
That was what I was not willing to tolerate any longer and so I did what was necessary to get my point across and.......my child left.
I won't say it was easy and I won't say it didn't hurt me but I think it did my child a lot of good and the outcome was worth the pain endured by all parties.
Hope I haven't scared ya'll away.
:D
GFN
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BF likes to have looooong talks with son and son complains that his dad 'lectures' him too much.
Yeah I don't think this is going to be effective. His son is not interested in a long talk. That is boring/oppressive to him and feels like a lecture even if it's not. The boy has a conflict. He wants someone to care but he doesn't want to feel intruded upon. When he is intruded upon, the rage is powerful and he makes snide remarks. It's ironic that people who were abandoned hate intrusions but that's how it works. I think talking to him in sound-bites might work better. And if a conversation starts going south and Dad senses that he is heading toward shouting him down, it may be optimal to table the conversation until later.
Basically I think 'discussions' are a waste of time. Fewer words and action are what's called for. Dad is going to get far more accomplished if he has clear limits as to what he will/won't tolerate and if there are immediate consequences enforced. The less anger Dad displays the better. The kid is testing to see when Dad will lose it and start yelling. If Dad does not get to that point, the kid will be (a) curious; (b) have nothing to react to; (c) might feel less oppressed and trapped by Dad. Another thing is for Dad to take responsibility for his own screwups with the son; but not take more than his share, and not make a big deal out of it. Just matter-of-factly admit to some mistakes and state that he will make an effort not to repeat them. When a lot of blame is cast back and forth, resentment builds up. If people are kind of blase about mistakes and don't have to blame someone, the teenager might feel safer to make mistakes himself.
I don't think this is easy for anyone. But he is not a four year old and he can't be given all this leeway. He may be incredibly immature but the world isn't going to tolerate it and you don't have to either.
bunny
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Hi delphine,
Well my MIL had her own problem. She was married to a really great guy. I got to know him before he died. He was my wife's stepdad but she thought of him as her second dad. He had a son by his first marriage who took it upon himself to destroy MIL's marriage. I met him a time or two. He definitely had a few bent spokes. The long and the short is he wrecked their marriage by constantly undermining her and causing constant divisions and at the time he was too young to kick out and too wacky to get fixed. Cunning little b*****d. :x
My SS. Like I said before, somebody flicked a switch at 17 and 1/2 and my nice little fishing buddy turned into Notorious B.I.G. :evil: The problem we had was he was depressed, otherwise he would have been gone much sooner but we were concerned that he might do something crazy if we just gave him the boot. So we put up with some pretty insolent behavior for quite some time. He got into drugs and alcohol (I found out later) and then wrecked his car. Shortly thereafter he started to trash his room because he couldn't borrow our car so at that point I got him in a nice bear hug and escorted him out the door.
He went and sponged off of friends and relatives for two or three years, then slowly started waking up. He got his GED, got a series of jobs, and eventually moved back in after he had proven he had turned around. This was on the condition he finish his schooling which was to become a licensed minister. He did that without a hitch and recently moved out (with a little push) and is on his own, older but much, much wiser(I hope).
He now wonders why we put up with his behavior, but with the depression he was suffering it was just not possible to kick him out. I think that saved his life. He wasn't spoiled, in fact he was amazingly pleasant until he got close to adulthood. He was dealing with issues of abandonment as well. He hasn't seen his dad since he was five. Another whacko. But its not a matter of blame or punishment its how do you protect the rest of the family or alter someone's behavior if they refuse to alter it themselves. Sometimes the most compassionate thing to do is to use the toe of a large hard boot.
If he had not had the depression but was just a pain in the hind quarters, he would have been much better off getting the boot at eighteen. He wasted five years of his life before exposure to trying to survive on his own put a serious crimp in his attitude.
I don't know what's best for your SS right now, but if he isn't willing to try and change and he keeps trying to manipulate his dad, sooner or later he is probably going to end up skidding down to the mailbox on his nose with the door locked behind him. It is very tough for two adult men to live in that situation. Eventually something's got to give and nine times out of ten its the kid.
mudpup
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Wow, this one is tough. I would tred very lightly here, if I were you.
I was married to my second husband for only 4 years, and in that time, his initial "jokes" and soapbox speeches about parenting (he was not one) were amusing. After a while, however, I found he really did not want anything to do with kids, except to exploit them to make him look...(fill in the blank: normal, well rounded, a kid friendly person) or to "discipline" them, which I did not allow (cannot be done without love in my opinion). He did not want a relationship of any kind with my children. And my kids were much younger at the time, and well behaved, "properly" socialized, etc. Granted the guy had a multitude of problems, narcissism being the biggie, but the bottom line for me was this: It is impossible to sustain "love" for someone who does not love your child.
Please be careful. Regardless of your opinion of this boy, switch roles. How would you be feeling if your BF did not love your daughter? You need to feel love for this child, regardless of the behavior, or your relationship with his father will be difficult to say the least.
On the subject of egos, perhaps everyone involved needs to check theirs.
Anytime there is substantial judgement going on, there is some serious ego involvement.
You really don't have to parent this kid, as much as you might need to love him.
Sorry if I sound harsh...but my second husband broke my heart, by not loving what was in there. You know as a mother that your children always come first. Have you considered that however "poor" his parenting looks to you, your BF loves this kid as much?
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delphine:
I really think my nieces anger comes from the fact that her feelings as a child were not taken into account by my brother. He was never at home and was busy building his business. Also my brother is very over bearing and aggressive. I remember being invited to Ft. Lauderdale to stay in an expensive condo. While we were there, his daughters met some very nice boys by the pool. Well they wanted to go somewhere with them, you know being teenagers. Well, they decided to invite these young people up to the condo and were were going to cook out. I told the girls I thought it was a very nice idea. The next thing I know my brother was going ballistic and started brow beating everyone because "they did not check with him". I told my brother I had met these young people and I thought it would be very nice to have them over for dinner. I also pointed out it would be better than having the girls go off alone and not knowing where they were going to be. He got extremely red in the face and started shouting "I know what the f...k is best for my daughters." He told his teenage girls to go into their rooms and he started shouting at them and actually kicking the doors. I was totally appalled by the whole incident. This is just a small illustration where their feelings over a small matter was totally blown out of proportion and not considered or handled in an adult fashion. He totally missed the opportunity to interact with a nice group of young people and try to get to know his daughters as people.
This is very horrible that this young man's mother abandoned him and then when she does communicate it is to talk about her DOGS. Just what is this supposed to tell him. That not only is he not important but he is nothing compared to her animals. He is lower than the animals in the pecking order as far as she is concerned. So what is eating at your future stepson...........well how about what the mother did to him and how your BF did/or did not stand up to her to take an account of what she has done and is continuing to do? I don't know what you think about this but at least it is a starting point. There is something eating this kid up inside and the only way he knows how to strike back is in anger. Just my 2c. Patz
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Dear Patz, Mum,Mudpup, bunny, and GFN,
Thank you so much for caring about our lives and struggles enough to share your thoughts and life lessons with me. I am ever so greatful.
Patz, I want to respond to you first because I think this truly is at the heart of the matter:
This is very horrible that this young man's mother abandoned him and then when she does communicate it is to talk about her DOGS. Just what is this supposed to tell him. That not only is he not important but he is nothing compared to her animals. He is lower than the animals in the pecking order as far as she is concerned. So what is eating at your future stepson...........well how about what the mother did to him and how your BF did/or did not stand up to her to take an account of what she has done and is continuing to do? I don't know what you think about this but at least it is a starting point. There is something eating this kid up inside and the only way he knows how to strike back is in anger.
You (and others) are really helping me to see that I have lost perspective of WHERE this kid's anger is coming from. I think bunny was the first to bring it up, also Kaz, Mum, and GFN.
I told BF last night that you all had helped me decide to go to therapy- BF, son, and I- that I was removing my "condition" that son be willing to work on his part of the problems. I said I am willing to just go and see if it helps or not.
Patz, your neice may not be an N. I acted very Nish in my early 20s after being raised by an N mom and then abandoned at 16 to live with an Alkie dad. I DID choose to change, over time, when people I cared about told me how I was affecting them. Thanks for sharing that.
Mum, I read your words very carefully, and looked in my heart. I can see how reactive I've become to son's behavour but essentially I know that I love BOTH his kids but I do NOT LIKE young son's behavour. BF knows I've also put a LOT of my personal time and energy into trying to help his sons. I've tried to reach him in many ways- proofing scholarship essays, attending events and movies that he likes, planning his birthday party, surfing the net to find jokes that might make him smile, picking out gifts that he would really like (I've gotten him gifts when his mom did NOT) etc.In the house BF and I will buy we are ONLY considering one with room for both his boys to visit, and a dining space big enough to host us all and then some. I really am not about trying to be the fairy tale evil stepmom; I really am about creating a real home, which means enforcing boundaries of behavour and self expression.
Mudpup, thank you so much for sharing these stories. I am definately not looking for this:
The long and the short is he wrecked their marriage by constantly undermining her and causing constant divisions
It's an interesting dynamic, isn't it? A mom has an unquestionable right to require respect and courtesy from her kids but the minute a GF or StepM ask for even a portion of it, our motives are suspect, our ability to love invalidated.
BF and his XW had a traditional family; BF worked, W raised kids. Why should BF be expected to suddenly know all about parenting, esp single parenting, at a time when he was angry and greiving himself? XW raised a kid with no boundaries, didn't like the result, and then ditched him. Now BF is supposed to know how to fix a problem he did not totally create, and I get all the blame for not wanting to wet nurse a teenager.
Somebody should film the REAL Brady Bunch... lol
Thank you for your insights, Mud, it lets me know that tough love is a valid option.
GFN, this is soooo appropriate to hear:
The truth is.....I did not remain devestated for long. I am not a failure as a parent. Actually, I'm a very good parent. Nothing inside me is permanently broken and my left arm is still where it has always been. My heart did feel broken and it was an awful experience but it was also a necessary experience. It hurt me tremendously but it is what my child needed. I lived and so did my child. It was necessary for my child to learn and grow.
Esp this part:
It was necessary for my child to learn and grow.
I soo want my BF to see that this is ultimately what I want for his boys, and it's how I've raised my own daughter. How I will continue to raise her. I think the easy part of parenting is loving kids, the hard part is teaching them what they'll need to know to thrive on their own.
Thank you.
bunny, THIS sums up the problem so well
I don't think this is easy for anyone. But he is not a four year old and he can't be given all this leeway. He may be incredibly immature but the world isn't going to tolerate it
And this REALLY IS a kid who has many talents to offer the world IF he deals with his anger in a productive way. Last night I told my BF that I thought our choices might come down to having son live on his own and resent us for a few years and then grow up, or live with us and resent us his whole life, remain in the house when we pass on, and live a bitter, lonely existence.
I want to share one last thing son said in therapy (he and dad) last week-
"My dad, my brother, and I were all affected by the divorce. Everyone was affected but my mom. She acts like it didn't matter to her at all."
Chilling observation, isn't it???
I had an N mom, too, I KNOW what it's like to watch them walk away from each train wreck they create and never look back...
Delphine
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Delphine: it is obvious that you do care about this boy. I am glad you took no offense at my comments.
Perhaps you need to give it all a break, I mean your trying so hard. Let it go, love him and care about him, but you have your own child to focus on, who is ultimately your real responsibility. Let your BF do the work he feels he needs to do for his child, let the child/young man do what he needs to do. If your BF does not see it the way you do, oh well. If you cannot live with his plan or lack of one, then it does involve you and you get to make a decision.
Set your boundaries for yourself and your daughter (sounds like you have) in terms of what you will and will not accept from others (ANY others) and leave it at that.
Whenever I am troubled or unhappy about something, I find it's because I am attached to something that I want that I don't have.
For example: my mother is dying.....it causes me a great deal of pain when I can't accept that she is old and sick and may leave us soon. I am attached to her being there forever, and when I can detach from that, I can trust that what is suppose to happen will, and simply pray that her end is peaceful. Beyond that, I create so much more pain for myself by wanting what I don't have. It's not a cold thing, I definately feel this loss, but it's enevitable and actually a very beautiful part of being human. She welcomes it, so who am I to want it otherwise? But I digress..............
If I can simply accept the way things are, find value and be grateful for what I have that IS good at the moment, it is easier for me to "let go" of this attachement. In doing this, I free myself from having to control and figure out everything (that I can't anyway, which is causing me pain). Also, I have found that in doing this, I don't shirk any "responsibility" at all, in fact it helps me to find more creative ways of thinking and approaching a situation, because my mind is not all caught up in it at all times.
Steven Covey has a great visual that goes with this, but I will do my best to explain this:
There are two concentric circles: the larger, outer circle is your "circle of concern" or all the things you are concerned about. The inner, smaller circle, is your "circle of influence", or all the things you are concerned about that you actually can do something about.
The theory is this: If you spend your energy out in the circle of concern, where you can do nothing you are spinning your wheels, wasting your time, and diminishing the size and activity in your circle of influence.
Now if you instead can identify what exactly within your concern you can actually influence and you spend your energy there in that center circle, you actually expand your influence outwardly into your concern.
I have thought of this frequently and sometimes, I decide there are things I don't even need to have in my circle of concern at all. For example: my children's happiness is always in my larger circle of concern. However, when they are at thier dad's house, it's not within my circle of influence. If I spend my energy freaking out about whether or not they are happy there, what ridiculous things he will tell them, etc etc....it's a waste of my precious energy and doesn't help anyone at all. However if I keep my focus on when they are with me (which I can influence), I stay happier, they see a different way to do life, and that in turn expands my influence circle, so that when they are with Mr. and Mrs. Negative, they can see it's possible to make happy, healthy choices for themselves. Make sense?
So what I am suggesting is to take care of yourself and your daughter, as you clearly are, set your boundaries with "I" messages (as in, I am going out of the room, as "I" am not comfortable with that behavoir, etc) and stay happy yourself. It is contagious, this happiness thing, and especially powerful with strong boundaries.
This guy (BF) is pretty lucky, I think, to have someone as strong and caring as you. Hope he recognizes that.
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Delphine,
Since you are hearing what goes on in the therapy, and find it interesting, you will probably be a great participant in the session. Go there and have some fun (relatively speaking). The boy is actually admitting to vulnerability by mentioning the pain of his mother's indifference to the divorce. That's a good sign.
His anger is also about mourning his lost mother. You are giving him what his mother is not. That evokes a lot of feelings in him: yearning for his own mother, rage that his mother isn't giving him this stuff, self-hate that he isn't good enough for his mom. Freud once said that when someone is mourning, they won't accept any substitutes for the lost loved one -- not even a far better substitute.
bunny
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Patz, I want to respond to you first because I think this truly is at the heart of the matter:
This is very horrible that this young man's mother abandoned him and then when she does communicate it is to talk about her DOGS. ....... There is something eating this kid up inside and the only way he knows how to strike back is in anger.
You (and others) are really helping me to see that I have lost perspective of WHERE this kid's anger is coming from.
Hi Delphine, hope you are well, I hope you will not mind my adding a thought here.. I really like the things the other people are telling you.. kids even older kids dont have the skills, to express their emotions appropriately sometimes. I dont know what this particular kid needs to do that, but I hope its somthing that the therapist can help with.
ive seen kids respond to the concept of 'getting what they want'. they havent had it explained to them, that reacting with hostility, may feel good for the present or -seem- to accomplish their goals, but in the long run, it is actually accomplishing exactly what they -dont- want, isolation and people disliking them. ive used this with little kids at the school where i work. one kid will be hitting another to try to get attention from them. if you explain to them that hitting someone gets attention for a minute, but then the person usually dislikes you and avoids you after that; but being nice to them not only gets attention right away but also helps them be your longterm friend, which is often realy what they were trying for, but didnt have the skills. so many times people acting out want love and attention. if you can verbalise (and show) that he will get more love and attention, by treating you with respect.. then you both win.
theres another thing that i havent seen anyone else mention, so i will, becuase i had a stepmother, who was a lot less nice than you are being!: you wrote: "A mom has an unquestionable right to require respect and courtesy from her kids but the minute a GF or StepM ask for even a portion of it, our motives are suspect, our ability to love invalidated." theres a real reason for that, something you have nothing to do with, didnt ask for, and can never change: like it or not, stepparents are often seen as an obstacle, a competitor, for the parents love. and the kid usually feels, "i was here first!"
with this boy in particular, who has lost his mother in a humiliating and devastating way, anything else perceived as threatening the last threads of his remaining family, may automatically be viewed as a real threat to his security in life.
its a sucky and unfair position for you to be in... but thank goodness he is almost 18, he is going to therapy, and you are big enough to care and make the effort. just a few thoughts i had. i really hope he can continue to feel supported and be vulnerable in therapy, and that you continue to feel supported and get what you need too. maybe if you could share some of your feelings about your own mother.. it could be the starting point of some commonality between you as well.
take care
Anna
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Those were really good points Anna. I'm glad you're here!
Hey Delphine:
I was just thinking......another thing might be that this son is afraid.
Afraid to be nice to you or act nicely around you, 'cause you might like him and then he'd have some kind of good relationship with you.
Afraid he might actually like you, if he lets you into his life.
Afraid you might not care about him (be using him) or worse.
Afraid you might pretend to care about him and then abandon him
like his mother did.
Afraid to feel love for you and then be discarded, like his mother did.
Afraid of the potential massive hurt that could come from trusting you.
Afraid to admit any of this and possibly unaware of much of it.
It's safer to keep a good distance.
You can't lose what you don't have any attachment to.
It's easier not to trust. :( :(
GFN
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Well said GFN.
The bad manners and rude behaviour is really quite superficial, there's a very frightened boy in there.
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Dear Mum, Bunny, Anna and GFN,
Thanks for caring and sharing your thoughts. This thread has been very helpful to me.
GFN, I began my relationship with son under the premises that you mention, that he would be afraid to befriend me, but time and effort have not changed the way he acts towards me, and he acts that way to his own grandmother, teachers at school, etc. Something is going on that started before I ever showed up.
Anna, what you say about stepparents is true- they are viewed by kids as undermining the family tie with their parent. However, most kids adjust pretty readily to the idea that a stepparent can be an ally if the adult makes the effort to show them caring and kindness, which I have done. Older son has responded to my efforts. I think something is going on with younger son that I did not create and that I cannot fix...
He's also had concepts like "getting what you want' explained to him with patience (my BF talks like this to him quite a bit). Son's response is that he doesn't care if other people like him or not, he has a right to "be myself" and "say what I think", and "why are you always telling me that I'm not okay?" ...get the drift? He cannot hear ANYTHING said to him as support. It ALL sounds like attack to him. His current mode of conversation is he puts you down via sarcastic personal remarks and expects you to laugh and admire his brilliance and insight. But if you say "ouch" he writes it off as your stupidity for not getting his humor.
Bunny, this applies to son verrrry well:
Freud once said that when someone is mourning, they won't accept any substitutes for the lost loved one -- not even a far better substitute.
Only I think his sense of loss and abandonment may have started long before his mom ever physically left. If she had ever bonded with him at all, how could she walk away one day and not look back?
Mum, thank you so much for your kind words, and reminder to stay detached. That meant a lot to me.
This whole experience for me is like Beyond Codependence, the Advanced Course. How can you feel and express compassion, caring, support, and love to someone who interprets your gestures as attacks, intrusions, or stupidity? And, if kindness pushes a button that results in an attack, at what point is it just masochism to continue to be kind?
I DO have it in me to not react to his barbs, to either trade zingers or walk away but I can never be myself around him. And THAT'S what I don't want in my own home because THAT'S what my childhood was like, and I won't give my own child that toxic air to breathe.
So while I feel sympathy for him I cannot connect with him. As an old Anon 12 Stepper I just do the 1st step repeatedly, acknowlege my powerlessness.
New development:
Son told BF that he wants things to change, that he doesn't want to have to live on his own. That's progress.... we might be headed towards therapy at the very least.
Delphine
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Kaz, didn't intend to leave you out of reply; we were writing at the same time. While it's got to be true that he is frightened- why ELSE would he be so defensive?? and angry to boot, knowing how to interact with him in an effective way, one that defuses his fears, is the problem.
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Hi Delphine,
One more 'Tale From the Crypt'.
My MIL has remarried to a really really great guy. His wife had died a few years before.
His daughter (adult, married with now grown kids) has never accepted my MIL. It has gotten worse over the years not better. Finally when MIL was snubbed at a wedding by the daughter, my MIL's husband put his foot down and set a boundary which has resulted in essentially zero contact with his daughter. Having lost one marriage to a steptwerp my MIL is naturally a little sensitive to this stuff, but her husband has been stalwart in defending their marriage from the Little Princess.
I feel like I keep throwing cold water on all the nice warm sympathetic things people keep telling you. Sorry. I really do hope very much that your SS changes and you all 'live happily ever' after as you put it in your original post. And obviously what somebody is at eighteen isn't what they are forever.
Unfortunately sometimes the people we fall in love with have a great big wart attached to them and we love them anyway. Sometimes it falls off, sometimes it doesn't. :?
mudpuppy
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It sounds to me like wherever and whatever the problem is and is coming from, your bottom line is not letting your own child have "toxic air to breathe". It sounds like that is your healthy boundary. Very healthy.
That is what I heard in your post that was not fuzzy for you or confusing for you, but clear and strong. It's the one thing you are sure of, and certainly it sounds like your true power is there. What a lucky daughter you have!
If you can't live there because this boundary is crossed regularly (in the air) then you simply can't. Maybe you and your BF can wait til his son is on his own.
I am sorry, I know how hard this is. You are dealing with someone else's pathology, and doing an ubelievable job with it, but your real job is your own kid and you recognize that. And that's why it's hard.
IMO You would do MORE for this young man by NOT moving in, than by moving in and trying to change things, or by trying to change things and then move in. Why? Because you demonstrate how a person loves themselves and thier own children appropriately. Not exactly the baseball bat over the head method........but the stay true to yourself, take care of yourself, and hope someday he'll figure that out method...but you take your energy out of it and take care of yourself (and your daughter).
It's your BF's job to deal with and help his son. You have taken it on, emotionally, because you love this man, that much is clear. But it is all stuff that is someone else's issue, really. You can be a support to your BF but you can't do it for him. Perhaps a "behind the scenes" supporter is what would work better. Listen, offer support, but let him handle it. Your BF has to step up to the plate, not you.
In this way, you retain your power....it's not giving in to the son's "power" (to get rid of you?) even if he chooses to see it that way. You make a decision for yourself and your child. He can think whatever he wants.
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Only I think his sense of loss and abandonment may have started long before his mom ever physically left. If she had ever bonded with him at all, how could she walk away one day and not look back?
A child will bond with a narcissistic parent very powerfully. A child has no choice. He must bond or die. infants are hardwired to do that. The mother, on the other hand, may have only given him little seductions and led him to hope for more. He was already dying on the vine, hoping. When she left, the vine dried up but was still alive. If you can imagine a famished, sad looking vine, that is this boy.
The way to deal with a person who takes every single thing as an attack is to ignore 90% of it and don't react at all. To the 10% that you have to react to, be very neutral, firm, and don't get sucked into a debate. If he says, "Why are you always telling me I'm not okay?" I would say, "Sorry I don't mean to tell you that. I'll try not to." Don't ask for examples, this is being drawn into a waste-of-time debate. If he says, "I can say whatever I think," my reply would be, "You can try. It might end up with a consequence but that's your option." The sarcastic remarks I would ignore completely. Don't give them any attention. If they are met with silence he will feel the sarcasm reverberating in his own head and it will not be pretty.
I'm glad the boy has admitted that he isn't ready to live on his own. That is a great development.
bunny
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Well said GFN.
The bad manners and rude behaviour is really quite superficial, there's a very frightened boy in there.
Thanks for the kind compliment. True, these behaviours are superficial and true about the fear (probably) but I also agree with Mudpuppy...I think he's saying that the boy's feelings/past experiences do not give him a licence to act rudely, cruelly, etc to others and allowing it/tolerating it is encouraging it.
We can understand the reasons for a person's behaviour but that does not make the behaviour correct. His hurt is no excuse to hurt others. Hopefully, therapy will give him an avenue to express his feelings and for all to express the effect his behaviour has had on the family/people's feelings/etc. and hopefully he will feel the empathy of others and begin to empathize with them too.
GFN, I began my relationship with son under the premises that you mention, that he would be afraid to befriend me, but time and effort have not changed the way he acts towards me, and he acts that way to his own grandmother, teachers at school, etc. Something is going on that started before I ever showed up.
Yes. For sure. Are the teachers female? The thing that was going on was that his mother caused him agonizing emotional pain and it has not been dealt with and so it is still going on. Possibly he views all females as being untrustworthy, or maybe they remind him of his deep pain and he acts out??? Maybe Grandmother has made remarks that defend his mother's actions (just guessing) and maybe that has added to his anger???
It's so hard to find a way into someone's heart if they have put up stone walls and missile-launchers all around it, isn't it?
Makes me think all of that has to be disassembled first.
GFN
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Hi GFN, bunny, Mum, and Mud,
I got this email from BF today:
Well, that was an emotional read! We have a lot of good stuff to work from here in our discussions this weekend and going forward. I almost posted a thank you but I would wish that you pass that along on my behalf. Thanks
for doing that small thing for me.
I will need to re-read it at least once or twice more to digest it all.
One thing that is true, the person speaking about dealing with the aftermath of a decision or action, it makes us stronger, gives us new ways to look at things. I have to remind myself
that this is true. I did not think I could ever survive being divorced and
here I am preparing for our new adventure together. I know we can work
through this and the end result will be what it must be and I will accept
and appreciate the situation in all its aspects, good and bad.
I love you,
BF
You have all helped us a lot.
GFN you asked if son's teachers were female- interesting train of thought, yes, and I do think he is more reactive to women. Good observation.
Bunny, thanks for the good tips.
Mum, BF and I plan to move in this fall when son goes to college. As you can tell from BFs email, he is committed to living together. He says son can temporarily live with his mom, grandparents, brother, etc if he cannot adjust to our new family. As long as BF and I are on the same page regarding son, that's what I want as well.
Mud, please tell me your tales from the crypt anytime! You are so helpful.
We have a lot of talking to do this weekend and I will keep you all posted. I'll be reading but perhaps not responding till Sun, so please share any more thoughts.
You guys ROCK!!!!!!!!!!
bLESSINGS TO YOU ALL,
DELPHINE
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no, Delphine, you and your BF rock. The two of you seem to have it together...I mean the stuff that weathers all storms. Have a great weekend.
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Just want all concerned to know that BF and I have a clear plan of how to handle this, and we used all your comments as input in our decisions.
It was especially useful for the feedback from you all who encouraged my right to have boundaries of behavour in my own house. How easy it is to concede that right when I was an adult before I thought of myself as having any rights whatsoever. How easy it is to then overcorrect and give kids ALL the rights.
Anyway, our non-negotiable rule for son is he must show respect for his dad (and me, when dad is not present) when dad tells him to do something. he is not allowed to argue. BF is prepared to tell son to pack a bag, and drive him to bus station if he will not back down. (Hopefully, he will cave in on the ride over; in which case he can return..) Son will also know that sarcasm or other hurtful comments directed towards a person or something that person holds dear, are not allowed in our home. For these he will lose priveleges. If he does not cease further abuse when asked to, he will have to leave.
Son will only be required to respect parental authority and refrain from abusive comments; he is not required to LIKE us, however. He is not required to accept my daughter nor myself as family members. By making this optional- his choice- it is our hope that he will eventually choose to consider his household a family. I just think that forcing it isn't going to work.
Again, thanks, hugs and blessings,
Delphine
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Delphine,
Good for you guys! I'm glad you have a plan together that sounds workable. Good luck, I hope this immature boy will wise up.
bunny
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Hi Delphine:
Glad to hear that you two have worked out this reasonable plan. All the better for everyone......now the lines are drawn in the sand and your BF's son can choose to stay within the boundaries or step over the line.
My bet is he will step over to test....especially to see if his dad will carry through.
Hopefully, that step-over won't be irreversible and he will begin to grow as a result.
GFN
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My bet is he will step over to test....especially to see if his dad will carry through.
I expect that, too. That's why we have the "bus station" plan- time to give him a chance to think it thru. Also, no one else he could stay with- grandparents, mom, brother- will give him a free ride and total acceptance of his attitude.... but he may have to find that out.