Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Butterfly on March 31, 2005, 11:27:41 PM
-
Greetings everyone :)
I'm new to this forum. I'm so delighted to bump into this website and find many warm and caring ppl on board. I would like to ask a question that I don't have an answer for. I would be delighted and grateful if anyone would share their thoughts or comments on my question. Here it is...
How do you disassociate from feeling or thinking there is something wrong with you when you said or did something dumb or stupid? In other words, how do you disassociate yourself from feeling dumb or stupid when you did a dumb or stupid thing? :? I guess what I'm trying to ask is, how do you make yourself see that your value does not depend on your mistakes. How do you keep on thinking highly of yourself, inspite of making mistakes? I have a strong tendency to think there's something wrong with me whenever I think I did something wrong. I wish I know how to get out of this mindset.
I'm sorry, I meant to only ask a question. But it ended up being a few.
Thank you a whole bunch for listening to my lifelong unsolved dilemma.
-
Welcome Butterfly,
Is someone else telling you that you are stupid and dumb or are you the only one telling yourself off when you make a mistake?
Do you otherwise think highly of yourself?
Perhaps you could give an example of how this works for you.
-
How do you disassociate from feeling or thinking there is something wrong with you when you said or did something dumb or stupid?
Hiya Butterfly, I think I understand what you are saying. It is both a very simple, and a very complex problem for us. I will use an extreme kind of example, but it is not untypical.
If you have a child, who, say, leaves the top off the toothpaste, what would you do? Chances are you would ask the child to put the top back on, and perhaps make a joke of it. Or maybe you wouldn't much care, because you do the same yourself.
N parents do not. They lose control, rant, shout, maybe hit. They tell the child how bad he or she is, and how if they do not learn to put the top back on the toothpaste nobody will ever love them ever again.
The reason why they do this is that they see everything in very black and white terms. You are either good or bad, ok or not ok. They spent their whole childhood learning how bad they were, and hated it. So they spend their adult lives passing this badness on to you, so that they do not have to deal with it.
You in turn, as a child, swallow the lies. You think that your parents must be right, and that every time you leave the toothpaste top off, you become a bad person. This is not true. Every time you leave the toothpaste top off, you save time the next morning. :lol: 8) :lol: And who cares? The toothpaste is not spoiled, and nobody dies.
To Ns, every situation has crisis dimensions. Every small criticism is a total rejection of them as a human being, and we inherit this from them. It is like a poison which they first inherited and then pass on to us.
The antidote is to ask questions such as 'who cares?' or 'is anybody dead?' Try to get a sense of proportion. Or look at it the other way round. Apart from Ns, is there anybody in this world who expects perfection every moment of every day? Or anyone who achieves it?
I have an uncle who taught me that if a thing is worth doing it is worth doing badly. Ns will only do things they can do perfectly first time, and every time. If you find yourself giving up doing something that you enjoy, but are not particularly good at, then don't. The reason for doing something is to enjoy it, not to excel at it.
If you find yourself saying something daft, then just think to yourself, that is not like me. After all, if you said daft things all the time, and were truly daft, you would never notice, would you? So that means that you are a bright person, who sometimes says silly things. As do we all.
:lol: 8) :lol:
-
Welcome Butterfly! It is a tough question... I still struggle with this, but am getting better at it. Therapy helps, and so does having supportive people around you, people that you can tell how stupid you feel and they can tell you that you're not (hard to find, and harder yet to get to that level of trust). What helped me to start getting out of this thinking was a book that my therapist gave me called "Mind Over Mood", by Greenberger/Padesky. It is based on the cognitive approach (which I thought was absolute nonsense before I actually was in cognitive therapy, so you don't have to "believe" for it to work). The book is full of so called "thought records", which are basically exercises to challenge your core beliefs and change your way of thinking. This book taught me that writing a bad paper did not mean that I am a bad person! :shock: Otherwise, you will find a lot of support and validation on this board and that really helps! :) Take care.
-
Hiya Butterfly,
Does it ever help you to think about the fact that every other person on earth does just as many, probably more, stupid things as you? Some are just better at covering them up or shifting blame.
Maybe it would be a good exercise for you if you stopped judging yourself and started judging all the knuckleheads around you for awhile. :wink: :twisted:
And I'm not just being a wise guy. I think most people with good self esteem or high confidence levels don't so much think they are better than everybody else. They just realize they're screwups in a worldwide sea of screwups :wink:
mudpuppy
-
Welcom, Butterfly! (great name!!). Everybody struggles with this, or just about, so welcome to a very big club!!!
I think everyone here gets what you are saying. Sleepyhead hit the nail on the head, at least from my learning. I
t's about your core beliefs. I had to learn what mine were before I could grow healthier. I found that I had some pretty "wrong" beliefs about myself (I am not worthy, I have to give it all away, I am essentially an idiot, other people matter more than me, etc etc). I got these beliefs because of a number of life experiences and learnings, but mainly because I AM a really good person and naively expected everyone else to be as kind and caring....when they were not, I figured I must be screwed up....thus the inner tape recording started. There were lots of other things that contributed to it, too long to go into, but the bottom line is:
what do you really truly believe about yourself?
Everyone screws up.....or if you want to look at it differently: there are no mistakes really. Just things that happen that teach us about ourselves.
Beating oneself up for things in our past is futile and not very kind to ourselves at all. And what I learned is to really be the compassionate person I want to be, I must start by being compassionate with myself. It never works the other way around (ok, so it took me 45 plus years to get that!!)
Ask yourself another few questions:
right NOW, what is the problem? (not past or future). Is there anything I can do about it right NOW? (if so, do something). Is there anything I can do about it later? (if so, schedule it for later). Bottom line........stay in the present and you will be a lot happier.
Ask yourself: why am I in pain over what was said? Step back out of your emotions and find out why you feel the way you do? Become an observer of yourself. You may find that it is directly tied to core beliefs.
I think the fact that you are even questioning this puts you firmly on the path to happiness and self awareness. Many people never question a thing about themselves (most of them are N's as we well know). They are asleep. Welcome to the waking world.
-
Hi butterfly,
It is easy for me to accept my mistakes because I know there is not one single person on the face of the earth that is perfect. I also do not consider every mistake as a flaw, I consider each one a learning experience.
I feel that people come to forks in the road when making decisions. If I chose to turn to the left at that time and it wasnt the right thing to do, then I know the next time that situation arises that I need to go to the right.
I learn something new from every mistake, mishap, or blunder and I try to not repeat the pattern.
-
I guess what I'm trying to ask is, how do you make yourself see that your value does not depend on your mistakes. How do you keep on thinking highly of yourself, inspite of making mistakes? I have a strong tendency to think there's something wrong with me whenever I think I did something wrong. I wish I know how to get out of this mindset.
Welcome Butterfly. :-)
I'm probably going to reiterate what's already been said but anyway...
The thought, "I'm awful because of this mistake," is just brainwashing that occurred a long time ago. You can re-brainwash yourself to think differently. That's what I did. I used to have a tape-loop in my mind that played this monologue: "You are SO stupid. What an idiot!! I can't BELIEVE what an idiot you are...you should kill yourself, y'know?,...etc...." At some point I realized this tape-loop was at one time useful. It actually prevented me from falling apart completely into some kind of psychotic state. But now it was not helping and was hurting (same realization you have).
here's what I did:
When the tape-loop started, I would say to myself, "Oh you're doing that name calling thing again. Come on, you're okay. This mistake will blow over. Calm down. We're going to find a way to fix it." After many reps, this re-brainwashed me and now the negative tape-loop has quieted down to almost nothing.
bunny
-
WHAT??? You make mistakes??? glad I don't have that problem....
APRIL FOOLS..
These posts are all so great.. all I can do is state the same things in my words-
Accept that you are human, get comfortable with and own your humanity.
If it helps, make lists of a few choice examples of other people's humanity and foibles, ie, I like knowing that Einstein flunked 5th grade when I feel stupid...
The average millionaire has filed bankrupcy 2ce..
It feels really alive to take risks, to try new things, to stretch and grow, which means making more mistakes at first, so it helps me to view it in this perspective.
-
Hello Butterfly:
Welcome!
How do you make yourself see that your value does not depend on your mistakes?
As Bunny described, what some refer to as: self-talk.
You tell yourself good things about yourself. You remind yourself of the many times when you have done things right. You decide to learn from your mistakes. You decide you are valuable, regardless of them and you keep reinforcing positive ideas about yourself, to yourself, as often as you can until you no longer believe the nasty stuff that was programmed earlier.
Sound like a lot?
How do you keep on thinking highly of yourself, inspite of making mistakes?
By thinking you are not perfect. By allowing yourself to think you are a valuable, worthwhile, person, deserving of respect, even though you are not perfect. By expecting yourself to make mistakes because you are not perfect. By telling yourself that you are human and so you will make errors.
I have a strong tendency to think there's something wrong with me whenever I think I did something wrong. I wish I know how to get out of this mindset.
I would bet there are a lot of people here who can relate to this and who have been there, so to speak, including me. This is part of the tape-loop/brain-washing that Bunny described, and which I suggest was planted there by past experiences and those who caused us harm. It then became habit to think this way (we heard it so often and we believed it because it often came from those we were supposed to trust).
The way to correct it, is to re-brain-wash/re-program the tape-loop, by repetitively repeating positive, affirming, accepting statements to ourselves, over and over, every time the negative, demeaning, discounting tape-loop starts up, as Bunny said.
The key is.......repetitively and with as much consistency as possible until....the new words/thoughts/tape-loop becomes habit and the old one fades away and is no longer the loudest voice in our head.
A way to get a head start is to make a list of stuff that you do like about yourself, some of your accomplishments, some things that you see as valuable about yourself, things you are proud of, things you do well, etc. and read the list a couple times per day.
Another way is to take one thing you are not really all that happy about in yourself, something you can work on changing, and repeat positive suggestions to yourself, while you are relaxing and visualizing yourself in a successful state (achieving the goal).
For example: Say you are not active enough and you decide your goal will be:
"I will go for a walk every day".
If you have been a basic couch-potato for awhile, this will be a big accomplishment, yet it is not a huge goal, really. It's doable.
Take 10 to 30 min, every day, relax in a comfy spot, picture yourself walking outside, or at the track, or in the mall, enjoying yourself, smiling, feeling healthier, seeing the sights around you there, feeling your energy increase as you walk, imagining how nice that is and how much better you will feel and as you imagine/picture/see these things...repeat:
"I will go for a walk every day.
I will enjoy walking, every day.
I can easily go for a walk every day."
Always positive statements (as opposed to "I won't do this or that").
Soon you will find yourself going for a 5 min. walk, then 10 min and gradually longer and longer, and you will enjoy it. Basically, you are convincing yourself that you can and will do something you can easily do.
You are giving yourself a new tape-loop to run over the idea that you are not active enough. You are giving yourself a concrete course of action and permission to take action, a little at a time.
This beats repeating: "I'm not active enough" and will be of benefit rather than encourage bad feelings about yourself.
If the thing you want to change relates to some mistake you made because you lacked knowledge in that area, then you goal might be to read/study/gain knowledge about that area, so that you will not repeat your error.
There is virtually no habit that cannot be remodelled in this way but.......one must be committed to working at it and to putting in the effort to bring about the change. And patience....because it takes time just as it took time for the original nasty tape-loop to take hold.
Hope this helps a little. :D
GFN
-
Hi Butterfly! You are welcome here!
I have been struggling with this kind of thing for a long time and started to make some progress recently. I think the first thing to do is recognize that there is a perfectly valid reason to believe the way you do. At least, it was perfectly valid when you started thinking it. By valid, I mean that these thoughts fulfilled an important purpose in your life at that time, NOT that they were necessarily correct.
For me growing up in a family with no emotional or physical support, I "believed" that there was something wrong with me. That belief explained why my parents never told me they loved me, that I was important, that my feelings made sense, that I was valuable, that I deserved to be held or loved or comforted. That explained why my father was non-existent as a ghost and my mother always seemed angry. If I could only figure out what was secretly wrong with me and fix it, then I could fix all the problems in my family and I would be taken care of. Looking back on it now, it makes perfect sense why I felt the way I did. My basic human needs were not being met. My belief was an explanation of the situation that included the way for me to address the problems. That belief gave me an anchor and a source of hope as a poor replacement for relationship, support, teaching, and validation from my parents. In truth, I had no ability as a child to get my needs met, and my parents just didn't know how. My belief was wrong from the beginning, and yet it was absolutely VITAL to my survival.
As an adult though, this "belief" caused me to take on responsibility for ALL problems in relationships. I still told myself that if I could figure out what is "wrong" with me and fix it, I can fix this relationship. In truth, it takes two people working together to make a relationship work. I only need to take responsibility for my part of the relationship. I have tolerated a lot of bad treatment from my wife in the outdated and incorrect mindset. The irony is, that I took responsibility I didn't have as a kid to take care of myself by taking care of people around me. Now that I'm an adult, I do actually have full ability to take care of myself, but wasn't exercising it because I was still focused on doomed attempts to take care of myself by taking care of those around me based on this outdated belief. I know that the details of this are different for you, but I hope you can find something useful from this.
The thought, "I'm awful because of this mistake," is just brainwashing that occurred a long time ago. You can re-brainwash yourself to think differently. That's what I did. I used to have a tape-loop in my mind that played this monologue: "You are SO stupid. What an idiot!! I can't BELIEVE what an idiot you are...you should kill yourself, y'know?,...etc...." At some point I realized this tape-loop was at one time useful. It actually prevented me from falling apart completely into some kind of psychotic state. But now it was not helping and was hurting (same realization you have).
bunny, it is impossible for me to picture you as stupid. Your posts here are always authoritative, insightful and direct. It is obvious to me that you are very knowledgable as well as wise. I highly value your viewpoint and am glad you are here with us. :)
-
Thank you for making me feel welcome here :D A special thank you to Kaz, October, Sleepyhead, Mudpuppy, Bunny, GFN, and Longtire for your supportive feedbacks. I appreciate each one of them. I apologize if I missed anyone.
I still haven't figured out yet on how to transfer a statement I want to quote onto this reply page :roll: Can anyone plz help. But, anyway, to answer Kaz's question. When I was growing up, my mother was demeaning and emotionally manipulative toward me. I remember when I was thirteen yrs-old, she told me that I was stupid for something I did. That little girl's spirit was crushed at that moment. I could still feel the residual pain from those words my mother said to me. That was just one of many examples on how my spirit was deflated. Often times, she would undermine my feelings and opinions just about anything. Now, no one is telling me that I'm stupid or dumb. At least not to my face :x But, subconsciously, I tell myself those things.
October, thanks for sharing your thoughts and analogy. I can see myself as the little child who left the cap off the toothpaste. And my mother would be the one ranting at me :x I like what you said about the reason for doing something is to enjoy it, not to excel at it. Many times, I forget that. So it's good to be reminded of it. However, it is so difficult for me to be logical when I feel like a failure.
Sleepyhead, the book you had suggested sounds like it's something that could be very helpful to me. In fact, I will look for the book. Thanks a million!
Mudpuppy, I think that it will be a very beneficial exercise for me to stop stop judging myself and start judging all the knuckleheads around me for awhile. The thing is, I don't see others as being the knuckleheads. I see myself being the one. This is where my logic is skewy. I like what you said about everyone screwing up. There are no mistakes. Just things that happen to teach us about ourselves. How many times do I forget this?? Far too many.
Bunny, your suggestion of making a list of people's humanity and foibles will a very impowering tool for me to keep myself level-headed on my outlook on ppl.
GFN, I so much agree with you that the key success is repetitiveness and consistency as much as possible until the new words/thoughts/tape/loops become habit, and the old one fades away. And is no longer the loudest voice in our heads. I have a long ways to go still with this. I'm hardly there yet. Why do I feel it is so difficult for me to get any better. For me, I want so much to grow stronger. But something keeps on pulling me back down. Sometimes, I feel I regress further down then where I left off. I don't see much progress in inner strength. This realization makes me feel so depressed and sapped any ounce of energy and hope I had. I feel like I'm climbing a mountain but I can't seem to be moving any closer to the pinnacle. Your suggestions helped me much. Thanks.
Longtire, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me. I can totally relate to you of growing up with a father who was physically present, but absent in every other way. How could a void like that be ever filled??
Since I was a teenager, I always felt depressed and never really found that inner peace and happiness of being who I am. But recently, this depression has gotten worse. I feel depress over many things. I'm on the verge of turning 30yrs-old. Looking back at my life, I feel like I failed in so many areas, and haven't accomplished the things that I wanted to accomplish before I hit 30. Mostly, due to poor choices I've made. Now, here I am, almost 30 and still feel like 21 in terms of accomplishments. I feel like such a failure in everyway. This feeling makes me have no energy to move forward, b/c it just sucks the life out of me, both emotionally and psychologically. Has anyone felt this way? How did you find the inner strength to move forward??
-
Butterfly, a couple more things I thought of that might help. As persistent as the unintentional voice whispering negative things to you is, the intentional voice you replace it with that states positive things will be ten times as persistent! :) As for 30, I've read that people don't reach their final emotional maturity until around 30 (if they're lucky, not N!). Maybe you needed to get to this point to have every resource available to you before taking this on. I know that for me 30 was a big milestone when I wasn't even close to where I wanted to be. Kids in the 60's said don't trust anyone over 30. I don't think life really starts until you hit 30. :) (I know I can get people to back me up on this last part. :wink: )
-
Hi Butterfly,
I also had a demeaning and emotionally manipulative mother and she also succeeded in 'crushing my spirit' at the age of 15. It was over my choice of career (nothing outrageous, just to go to Fine Art school and maybe become a teacher). I use now those exact same words to describe the feeling at that time. I gave up then, didn't put any effort anymore into school, didn't care about much at all. I was probably depressed.
To cut a long story short, that spirit that is you, is still in there. Nurture it and bring it back to where it ought to be. (With the help of meds and therapy if need be).
You may not be where you thought you'd be at the age of 30. So what? Since when is there a rule book for achievements to be done and finished by 30? I'm 50 and starting a new career, it's great!
Another question for you Butterfly, are you in contact with your mother still?
-
I feel like I failed in so many areas, and haven't accomplished the things that I wanted to accomplish before I hit 30. Mostly, due to poor choices I've made. Now, here I am, almost 30 and still feel like 21 in terms of accomplishments. I feel like such a failure in everyway. This feeling makes me have no energy to move forward, b/c it just sucks the life out of me, both emotionally and psychologically. Has anyone felt this way? How did you find the inner strength to move forward??
What I would do is make a boundary that I can no longer say this stuff anymore. Not even if it's true. It is now taboo. Why? Because this reinforces the brainwashing and creates a depressed, tired, life-energy-sucked-out situation. You may have to give up the familiarity of these thoughts. It won't be easy but each time you observe yourself saying these putdowns, stop and say something different like "Today is the first day of the rest of my life" (seriously..). Do you think you can? :)
bunny
-
I feel like such a failure in everyway. This feeling makes me have no energy to move forward, b/c it just sucks the life out of me, both emotionally and psychologically. Has anyone felt this way? How did you find the inner strength to move forward??
What I would do is make a boundary that I can no longer say this stuff anymore. Not even if it's true. It is now taboo. Why? Because this reinforces the brainwashing and creates a depressed, tired, life-energy-sucked-out situation. You may have to give up the familiarity of these thoughts. It won't be easy but each time you observe yourself saying these putdowns, stop and say something different like "Today is the first day of the rest of my life" (seriously..). Do you think you can? :)
bunny
This may not be too easy. I think you are right, Bunny, but it would not be possible for me to set a boundary without that becoming another level of failure.
Perhaps it could be approached by thinking, who agrees with me on this one? Chances are the N parent would be top of the list, and - surprise surprise - there would be no list.
One of the most important books I have read recently is called Grace Unfolding - it was recommended on this site. It talks about psychotherapy in the spirit of the Tao te Ching, and the most important lesson I learned from it is that the healing we need is already within us. We are not broken or damaged, although we may feel as if we are. If we were broken we would not still be here. The fact that we are is a testament to our resilience, our strength, our sanity and our innate goodness.
As I see it, Butterfly, you are a very caring person, with a genuine ability to see those around you, and to appreciate the individual gifts of each one. You took great care to respond to each of us as individuals. I myself struggle with issues of invisibility and found your approach very caring and validating. You have a great deal to offer, both to us here and to the world around you. You are not the problem. You are the solution. :)
The inner strength is there. You just have to find a way to tap into it. (As do I.)
-
I feel like I'm climbing a mountain but I can't seem to be moving any closer to the pinnacle.
Butterfly, take smaller steps and don't look back. Mountain climbing is rigorous work and the ascent is slow but when you finally start making it up there, the view is breathtaking and the accomplishment is satisfying. You have the gear and the map but the trudging is up to you.
I could still feel the residual pain from those words my mother said to me.
Look, I'm going to be very blunt here. I think I know exactly what you mean by such crushing, cruel, spirit recking words because I've experienced similar episodes and for me.....the pain of those words was/is excruciating and very deep. It is over 30 years later and if I think about those words, I can feel the exact same hurt, I can suffer very severely and I can hear those words being said, over and over and feel how I felt.
But I chose not to.
I chose not to let THAT tape play any more. I have decided. I don't want to listen to that crap any more. I don't have to listen to it and I won't be listening to it again because it's not doing me any good. Each time I allow it to play it causes more harm. And I'm not interested in harming myself by allowing it to play any more.
It's a choice. One must decide NOT to allow such thoughts to prevail, as Bunny said, as soon as they begin, a stop must be put to them and something much more useful, beneficial, something good that helps...must be substituted.
It isn't magic. It's something that requires effort and perseverence. Think of spending half the energy you are spending on feeling bad....on trying to feel better and imagine the improvement??
No one else, no therapy, no kind words from others, no hugs, no love, no friendship, no mate, no other person on this earth can turn that stuff off in our heads.
We have to do it ourselves.
People hurt us when we were little children.
Now we are adults and we don't have to let them keep hurting us.
We can choose to take that power away from them by cutting their stupid words out of our minds and putting truthful, loving, helpful thoughts there instead.
It's our choice.
Please, please excuse me for lecturing. I only mean to try to help.
Repetition. Consistency. Effort. Determination.
These are the tools and maps that can lead us up the high mountain road and free us from a stagnant, pointless, suffering and drudgery.
October:
This may not be too easy.
Nothing worth achieving is easy...... but it is doable.
...it would not be possible for me to set a boundary without that becoming another level of failure.
October, you are an intelligent, caring, kind, giving, logical, warm, witty, gentle, sweet person, as far as I can see. Why are you being so mean to yourself?
Forget this thought. Kick it out of your brain! Anything is possible if you decide to try for it. You may not achieve total and utter bliss but life can be so much better for you. Dear, dear October, don't give up before you begin!
Would you let your child say such a thing without trying to help her see her potential for success??
"Mummy, some kid at school says I'm stupid and I can't stop hearing those words. They keep playing in my head and to be honest....I think I am stupid. I can't.......try to stop the tape or set that boundary (of substituting kind words to myself in my head) without that becoming another level of failure".
((((((((((((October))))))))))))
I hope I haven't offended you. I just can't help but point out your potential and .......ask you.......why you are allowing yourself to embrace frailure??
If this is something we have learned since childhood then it is something we must re-teach ourselves correctly. It is hard work. It is a choice to begin that construction and learn those new lessons.
GFN
-
Hi again, Butterfly!
I feel like I'm climbing a mountain but I can't seem to be moving any closer to the pinnacle.
Wow, do I recognise this! My mental picture was that I was on a treadmill and I kept running to keep up, but the speed kept increasing just a fraction at a time. Somehow I manged to stop running, but instead of keeping walking I sat down. I don't have a middle ground it seems... Anyway, I am now at the grand old age of 32, I still don't have a career (have had jobs, of course, but nothing that has anything to do with my education), I have no money saved up and at the moment no job... But you know what? It's not the end of the world! :D :shock: :wink: I have not done any of things you are supposed to do before you're 30, but I'm ok anyway. I've had to realise that my childhood made me fall behind in many ways, since so much energy is devoted to keep the pain under control, so I need to allow myself a lot of leeway and special consideration. I have done other things that,however pointless they may seem to anyone else, where necessary for me.
About not seeing the screwups around you: Maybe you don't hold them to the same opressive standards as you do yourself? Next time you "screw up" and that tape starts in your head, ask yourself this: "If someone else had done this, would I think that they were stupid/an idiot/whatever?" You will probably find that you wouldn't.
-
Butterfly,
I think everyone here is on the mark. As soon as you learn kindness towards yourself, you will be able to set boundaries with others. And then in a very nice cycle, you will then set boundaries in your own head, for what you will even allow yourself to say to yourself. Make sense?
When you get to the point where you no longer allow ANYONE (including your old negative self talk) to attack you, you'll be able to relax and enjoy life so much more. It all goes together, but again, as many have said, it's a choice. You get to make that choice.
For me, it was a frightening step, making that choice, realizing that power. For to make that choice, I had to admit I allowed this stuff to happen (maybe not at first, but later in giving away control of my own mind). That's a good time to be nice to yourself, by the way. Let it go, past is past. What you do right now is the important stuff!
So understand it IS entirely up to you, the responsibility and the POWER as well, is all yours. And make a choice. Sounds easy? It is and it isn't. If it were easy, would we all be here? And if it were impossible, would we all be here?
Hard learning is usually good learning!!!
-
Hi Butterfly,
Everyone has given great advice above.
I also was impressed how you responded to each person individually with some feedback in your response. That is an extremely caring (and complex) thing to do. So you have already shown you have great connectivity with others socially, and you have some important skills.
But how did you reach that level of connectivity and skill? Why, by a cycle of practice, assess, learn, practice, assess, learn, etc. The same is true for learning any new skill. Therefore, if you do something and fail at it, you are in the "practice, assess" stages and all you then have to do is learn from your mistake and keep practising. Eventually, you would become as good at that thing as you are at writing and supporting others, as you've done here.
Making mistakes is an ESSENTIAL component of learning a new skill. Everyone else learning and becoming skilled is making mistakes along the way, too. Not everyone will tell you this however, because not everyone is nice enough to admit it. ;) I can tell you that I am good at certain things (at work, for example) and I became skilled in those things by making a lot of mistakes. However, I enjoy learning from my mistakes and becoming better at the activity/task the next time I try. :)
So I think if you can really see the mistakes in a positive way, you will be able to make them work to your advantage. Mistakes are a necessary part of growth and development. Without mistakes, we would all stagnate. We NEED to make mistakes, day after day.
All the best,
Guest-from-afar (female in my fifties)
-
oh, and by the way, Butterfly: 30? Please, you're a babe in the woods! If I had learned this stuff (that you are learning) at 30.....wow!! Seriously, until only recently I felt like a 12 year old with certain people. Age is nothing. It's not how old you are, it's what you know. My daughter was 70 when she was 4.... a wise old soul. :D
-
This may not be too easy. I think you are right, Bunny, but it would not be possible for me to set a boundary without that becoming another level of failure.
I'd say to myself, "Oh, now you're putting yourself down for needing a boundary. No more put-downs. Put-ups!" This would be said without self-hate, just an observation and pep talk. BTW my little niece won't let anyone say a put-down. They taught her about put-downs at school. She points it out to us when we're doing it.
P.S. Richard Grossman was the one who recommended Grace Unfolding. It's a great book.
bunny
-
Butterfly,
I still haven't figured out yet on how to transfer a statement I want to quote onto this reply page Can anyone plz help.
GFN helped me with this. I'll pass it on.
Left click and drag your pointer to highlight the text you want to quote.
Right click the text. From the pop up menu click 'copy'.
Go to your reply box;
Left click where you want the quote.
Right click again, from the pop up menu click 'paste'; the text should appear.
Left click and drag your pointer to highlight the text again.
Go the the menu above your reply box and click "quote".
Voila, when you post it will be highlighted as a quote.
You wrote,
I'm on the verge of turning 30yrs-old. Looking back at my life, I feel like I failed in so many areas, and haven't accomplished the things that I wanted to accomplish before I hit 30.
Two things.
The fact that you are approaching thirty in and of itself could be putting stress on you. That's one of those milestone years which some people don't handle too well.
Second, very few people are satisfied with what they accomplish. I haven't done everything I could have, nowhere near it. You only fail if you quit trying. Concentrate on what you have succeeded at and build on that.
They asked Winston Churchill to give a speech to group of students one time. Part of his speech was,
"Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never--in nothing, great or small, large or petty--never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy."
That's how to accomplish things. When you fall down you get up and "Never give in". That's how to deal with Ns as well. :D
mudpup
-
I feel like I'm climbing a mountain but I can't seem to be moving any closer to the pinnacle.
Butterfly, take smaller steps and don't look back. Mountain climbing is rigorous work and the ascent is slow but when you finally start making it up there, the view is breathtaking and the accomplishment is satisfying. You have the gear and the map but the trudging is up to you.
Just a small thought on this image, which is a nice Western one, but may be changed for another more helpful one, with a bit of Buddhist thinking.
To Buddhists, certain mountains are sacred, and to climb them would be sacrilegeous. When they approach a holy mountain, they walk around the base, admiring the view and praying or doing whatever it is that Buddhists do, but they do not strive to reach the summit. The mountain is there to be a mountain, not to be conquered or climbed.
Maybe that would help, as a thought about your own notional life mountain. It is too sacred to climb. It is to walk around - so you never will reach the top, but you also will never fail to do what you are there to do - to walk around the mountain. :)
-
I'm new also Butterfly. Keep reading and listening to what other N survivors have to say. We have been conditioned from a very early age, that we are at fault for most everything that upsets a N.
I learned that I had outgrown my parents emotionally by the age of 7 :shock: and they made me the parent in the family, but treated me with the contempt of an unruly child. I really belive that they never really mature past a 6 year old, yet have the ability to look wonderful to outsiders. I once read that there is really nothing to love about a 6 year old if you really think about their actions. They are ego-centric, lie to get out of trouble, and are often terribly mean to their peers. Yet, we love these children, probably because they are just that - children. :)
When a N grows up and pulls the same antics on "loved ones" it is just not the same. People get really hurt and will not recover without a lot of work and "retraining" of their thought processes. Keep working on helping yourself. God Bless. Joey
-
October:
Nothing worth achieving is easy...... but it is doable.
For you it is possible. For some it is not. :oops: I hope that Butterfly can do it, but if she cannot, then she will not be alone in that.
October, you are an intelligent, caring, kind, giving, logical, warm, witty, gentle, sweet person, as far as I can see. Why are you being so mean to yourself?
You need to ask? :?
I hope I haven't offended you. I just can't help but point out your potential and .......ask you.......why you are allowing yourself to embrace failure??
If this is something we have learned since childhood then it is something we must re-teach ourselves correctly. It is hard work. It is a choice to begin that construction and learn those new lessons.
GFN
You have not offended me. I am still a relatively young person, and I should still be able to do everything that I have the potential to do. Nonetheless, I have had to admit to limitations because of how I am. I have had complex ptsd and depression for at least 8 years. I am social phobic. I have few social contacts left, and rarely leave my home. I know that there are lots of things I ought to be able to do, and lots of things I am not doing at present. But I do what I can when I can, and I take each small achievement as being sufficient to the day.
The process of being limited more and more, by inches, over almost a decade, has been endlessly painful. I am a gregarious person. I like to be with other people, and I like to share with them and walk beside them. It is very difficult to choose to remain at home instead in order to minimise symptoms of how I am, but I have to. Until I have found enough of the way out, which I think I am doing, bit by bit.
But what I cannot do is to talk myself into being sorted when I am not yet sorted, or reject all the programming in my head that should not be there, and that is full of lies about the person I ought to have been, but somehow never quite managed. It is not enough to say, 'stop thinking that way!'
I was just trying to be honest, that is all. This is not embracing failure. I am still alive, and still kicking. The people who are failing in this are the ones who want to destroy me, and my spirit, and make me lie down and die. Every day I stay alive I make liars of them. That is not failure. That is a great victory.
-
October,
I am still alive, and still kicking. The people who are failing in this are the ones who want to destroy me, and my spirit, and make me lie down and die. Every day I stay alive I make liars of them. That is not failure. That is a great victory.
Good stuff! Quitting is the only failure. Of course we can take a rest now and then, even God did. :D :wink:
They want us to quit, because that validates their warped view of the world. They were right about our defects all along, don't you see?
So, since you're still alive and kicking the next time you're out and about you should find an N and kick him. :lol: :twisted:
That might make you want to go out more. :? Maybe?
You can kick one for me while you're at it.
mudpuppy
-
So, since you're still alive and kicking the next time you're out and about you should find an N and kick him. :lol: :twisted:
That might make you want to go out more. :? Maybe?
You can kick one for me while you're at it.
So many to choose from ... so little time. :twisted:
Thanks MP. xxx
-
I'd say to myself, "Oh, now you're putting yourself down for needing a boundary. No more put-downs. Put-ups!" This would be said without self-hate, just an observation and pep talk.
bunny
Everything is easy once you can do it. I am still at the level of conscious incompetence; a very long stage of any learning event. :)
-
Everything is easy once you can do it. I am still at the level of conscious incompetence; a very long stage of any learning event. :)
Things are not easy once I can do them. For example I hate driving and I can drive. It's still not easy. In that case and others, I might force myself to do "counterintuitive" things because it's in my interest. One of the things I decided was, telling myself negative things was not in my interest so I can't do it anymore even if I want to, even if it comforts me in a perverse way, even if everything in me screams to do it. And I may do it anyway. But I will see it happening. That's the main thing.
bunny
-
Hi butterfly :}
the other people said so many great things, the topic of 'failure' is near and dear to my heart so I dont really have advice.. just some "mental images" to offer that may help, that have helped me.
like so many here my parents were excessively demanding perfectioninsts. they taught us nothing, but expected us to know everything. my way to deal with this was to become a devotee of 'failure' in all its spectacular, messy glory. i became an artist. in the world of art, there is no right and wrong. there is only what is there. its up to *you* to name it or categorize it as success or failure. its a metaphor for life to me.
my very best work was often created from what others would have called 'mistakes'. i found that those 'mistakes' were really a gateway to the most creative and unprecedented thought. one of my best drawings was one that was partially destroyed by a dog ripping it up. i just used the ripped parts as part of the design, and it turned out way more interesting than it was before. every person that paid me money for that poster thought i meant it to be that way.
when i would sell painted tshirts, sometimes there would be spots or smudges for different reasons. instead of selling those shirts for less becuase they were 'flawed', instead I painted butterflies (yes butterflies :) and other beautiful things over the smudges, so that each smudge became instead a beautiful extra thing, and those shirts became my most popular and sold for much more than the ones 'without mistakes'.
our 'failures' or 'successes' are up to us to decide.
some quotes:
"people fall down - winners get up"
"Ideas do not have to be correct in order to be good; its only necessary that, if they do fail, they do so in an interesting way." - Robert Rosen
I also think about the fact that it took Thomas Edison more than 100 tries before successfully inventing a working light bulb... It took women almost 100 years to get the vote. It took almost 100 years to invent the birth control pilll. Anything that was ever invented that we take for granted now, was often the product of a loooooong process of 'mistakes', failures, and roadblocks during which some poor soul refused to take no for an answer. Many things that we use all the time were actually mistakes BEFORE they were invented, that people then thought, 'hey this is cool' and started to use. I see this all the time in things even like cooking. you dont have oregano, you use basil instead. then it becomes your favorite recipe. all becuase of a 'mistake'.
none of this is really advice... its just mental images on the concept of redefining 'failure' and 'success' for ones self. life is a process.. not a perfect, shrink-wrapped destination as we were taught. cutting off our access to the potential of 'failure' is just another way to stifle our creativity, our life force, our unique way of being who we are and contributing to the world. dont you let them do it!!
as far as reprogramming our thoughts, i agree with some others that its not magic, for me its been simply discipline. ive seen the power of negative programming.. so, why not use a little positive programming. it has made a lot of changes in my thoughts, with time, patience, humor, and a LOT of forgiveness of my 'slips'. it still hurts to have other people critisice you. im not discounting that. those tapes in the head are powerful. just offering a different point of view.
just a little musings on 'success' and 'failure', from someone who has taken failing 'to an art form' :}}>
-
BKS Iyengar calls triumph and failure "the great imposters"....
-
One of the things I decided was, telling myself negative things was not in my interest so I can't do it anymore even if I want to, even if it comforts me in a perverse way, even if everything in me screams to do it. And I may do it anyway. But I will see it happening. That's the main thing.
bunny
I am really happy that you have found a way that works for you, Bunny. I would like you to accept that I am not the same as you are.
As I have said, your strength cannot be my way at present. That is not being negative, it is being realistic. For me, the way is to embrace what feel like the broken bits of me, but as everyone here says, the parts which help to find growth, rather than to take what to me would not be strength, in fact, but denial; the N way out, which would be perfectionism and 'not allowing' any part of me which actually exists. I am not saying that this is the case with you, of course not, but with me it would be. N behaviour and language is very familiar to me, and I am not going to allow it in myself, even in relation to recovery.
My uncle denies he has depression. When he had a major operation he stopped taking painkillers after three days because he didn't need them any more. This is what I am trying not to do. (And of course I am doing the same. I don't take a/ds. Too strong for me.)
Today I can wash the dishes, and some of the clothes. I can look out of the window and admire the spring sunshine. I may even be able to sit in the garden for a while. These are all very good.
Yesterday I was cutting the grass and a helicopter was buzzing around nearby and then hovering, and I had to come inside, because it became dangerous to be there. But that is not a failure; I went and finished it afterwards. And I laughed at my funny ways; why should the helicopter want me; so I pretended I was a film star. 8) Perverse comfort is better than none at all.
What difference is there between staying outside, resolutely self talking myself into being there, and coming inside, smiling to myself, and then finishing it later? The important thing is, the grass is cut.
-
October,
I accept how you are. I felt like I had to defend how I am because it was being misrepresented (that was my reaction).
I don't have strength. I just decided some things. That's all. You've decided what you decided. I don't consider it negative.
bunny
-
October,
I accept how you are. I felt like I had to defend how I am because it was being misrepresented (that was my reaction).
bunny
This is where I went wrong. I am sorry, Bunny. I was not trying to say that what you said was wrong, I was only trying to say that if Butterfly could not follow what you said - which was actually 100% right - then she would not be alone. It was meant as, the theory is brilliant, but not everyone can do it; for one me (yet.) But the theory is great, and I am full of admiration for those who are more proficient than I am.
It took me a long time to learn how to say 'I can't do everything.' :?
I hope this helps. I am sorry if you felt I was invalidating what you said. That was not my intention in any way. I always value what you have to say, and your breadth of knowledge.
-
Yesterday I was cutting the grass and a helicopter was buzzing around nearby and then hovering, and I had to come inside, because it became dangerous to be there. But that is not a failure; I went and finished it afterwards. And I laughed at my funny ways; why should the helicopter want me; so I pretended I was a film star. Perverse comfort is better than none at all.
October, you're already doing it. Otherwise, you would never have gone back out and finished. Whatever voices were saying the helicopter was after you, sent you inside. While you were inside, something happened and your thinking changed. The helicpoter left but if your thinking hadn't changed then you would have been too worried that it would return, so you wouldn't have gone back outside.
"Why should the helicopter want me?". That logical thought calmed you and helped you to realize it was a bit funny to be thinking otherwise. Then your imagination helped in a positive way by pretending you to be a film star. It was the good thoughts that helped you go back outside.
Had you continued to think that the helipcopter was after you, soon they would be dropping a hook down to grab you, and then they would take you away to who knows where to do heaven knows what, they'll come back if you go out again etc.......you would never have gone back out that door to finish cutting the grass.
So.......I now fully disagree with the idea that you are embracing failure. :shock: You are capable and do actually use your own logic and imagination to change your thinking when an unrealistic idea presents itself. I disagree that you "can't" do it because you did do it, yesterday.
I do need to ask why you are being so mean to yourself because I want to know if you think it is a habit, if it is because it feels normal, if it is something that helps you in some way that I can't think of, or if it is something you're not sure of?
I want to know because I care. :D :D :D
Plus.......I don't want to make an incorrect assumption.
GFN
-
So.......I now fully disagree with the idea that you are embracing failure. :shock: You are capable and do actually use your own logic and imagination to change your thinking when an unrealistic idea presents itself. I disagree that you "can't" do it because you did do it, yesterday.
I do need to ask why you are being so mean to yourself because I want to know if you think it is a habit, if it is because it feels normal, if it is something that helps you in some way that I can't think of, or if it is something you're not sure of?
I want to know because I care. :D :D :D
Plus.......I don't want to make an incorrect assumption.
GFN
Thanks. I think. :oops: I am not aware that I am being mean to myself, although I am sure that is true somewhere; in some possible world. If I say that my history is mostly one of emotional abuse and neglect, perhaps that explains it. There was physical stuff too, but I only saw that; it didn't happen to me. It happened because of me, to my brother. But I do not know how it can be achieved that the person I used to be can be looked after any other way. This is how it is done. :oops: Sorry for the weird language. Except that I do it better than before, because I do more for me than anyone used to. Or perhaps more accurately, I do it for my daughter's mum. Because she deserves better.
My first t asked if I was masochistic, and I laughed and said no, of course not. I look after myself as well as I can, and perhaps better than is familiar. It may still not be anything like how I look after other people, but it is not bad. But I have to admit my limitations, because they are too real for me to ignore any more. :lol: Where am I being mean?
It isn't voices telling me about being watched; it is the feeling of being watched that is difficult. I think this comes from overzealous parenting, determined to make us feel guilty every moment of our lives. It is working. :lol: I didn't want the people in the helicopter to be watching me. It felt dangerous. This is why I stay in my house. Nobody can see me. Which translates to nobody can hurt me. Being seen equates to being hurt.
This is the problem I have in therapy all the time; they want to find the words, but the words don't come until I start to think. The feelings come first, and I struggle to control them. Sometimes I can, and then I am ok. Then I find the words to sort out what is going on, and to find a way back through logic and reasoning, and humour. My own thoughts are that whatever I am tapping into is prelinguistic, and therefore has no words. I am not sure if that is right, but it feels right.
My mum says that when we were small my older brother and I had our own language, that nobody but us could speak. That makes me wonder what kind of kids (not twins) don't learn English from those around them, but have to make up their own language? Those who are not spoken to, I would assume. :oops: Which would make English a kind of second language, and one which I struggle with at times, because there are words missing.
Other times the feelings are too strong, and eventually I have to back away for a while, and be on my own. If I try to talk myself out of it in this kind of situation - or worse still if someone tries to stop me leaving - all that happens is that things escalate out of (my) control. If I leave, I am still in control, albeit retreating.
That probably explains nothing. I am not as I ought to be. Bits are fine, but bits are not. :? I am not being mean. I am being who I am (at present) capable of being.
-
Hello Everyone!
Thanks for all the great postings. Everyone who posted had alot of terrific and sound suggestions, even though I don't see them in the same light as some do. Which makes for a lively and spirited interchange of ideas, doesn't it? Nevertheless, the fact that you all posted means so much to me.
Longtire, your optimism of life after 30 is refreshing to me.
Kaz, to answer your question. I'm still on speaking terms with my mother. We talk to each other, but we don't communicate on the level of having an emotional connection. Just thinking about it makes me so sad and feel a deep sense of lost of what could have been, but isn't. I have no anomosity towards my mother, just sadness.
Bubble, what you said about setting boundaries for myself makes a lot of sense. But in this case, I feel we see things in a different light. I highly value your perspective. In my case, I've set far too many boundaries in my life. I find those boundaries tend to backfire on me. It's a no win approach for me. Boundaries spells self-limitation and failure for me. Which creates a downward spiral of disappointments in myself. Besides, when I feel like a failure, I lose the energy to fight the self-defeating thoughts in my head. I'm tired of fighting it. Allowing myself to wallow in self-pity from time to time helps me to release a lot of inner conflict and anxiety. This is a way for me to embrace my humanity. Which you had beautifully put.
October, I can see where you are coming from with your perspective on setting boundaries. I tend to see it that way too. The book you had recommended sounds very intriquing. I totally agree with the author...we are not broken or damaged, although we may feel as if we are. That is very much an oxymoron. The statement has a lot truth upon examination and makes whole lot of sense. I definitely embrace that outlook on the resilient power of the human spirit. I can relate to you on struggling with the issues of invisibility. Thank you for the kind words. However, what you wrote a little later in this thread, kind of left me scratching my head a little. I think it's b/c I'm fairly new to this site and don't know your story yet. I'm confused on the part where you said you are have social phobia, but in the next paragraph, you said you are a gregarious person. And you like to be with ppl. What am I not understanding?
Mountain climbing is definitely rigorous (speaking from experience). I like to occasionally look down, just so I can assess my level of progress. For me, looking back can be a way to encourage myself to move forward, b/c I can see how much i've progress so far.
Sleepyhead, I like your attitude about where you are in life in terms of accomplishments, etc. I could tell that you are kind to yourself. That's encouraging to me. Now, I don't feel so alone anymore. Even though I know there are many ppl in my situation. It makes things more real to hear it from someone else. I think you had a good point about what you said about not seeing the screwups around you.
Mum, I think you have a good point about hard learning is usually good learning. But does ambitiously learning something new the wrong way bring about good results?? That's what I learned about myself. I recently realized that all my life I've used an ineffective approach. Despite all the effort I made to progress, I still reached a dead end. I became very frustrated and disappointed in myself which led to depression b/c I tried so hard, but I still find myself stuck in a rut. Why, b/c I was trying to put a square peg in a round hole. The effort was there, but the technique was wrong. Now, I'm learning to use a different approach. Thanks for the uplifting thought on age. When it comes to age, there's truth in the statement: if you don't mind, then it don't matter.
Guest from afar, thanks for your perspective on the whole idea about making mistakes. What you said reminds me not to take life too seriously. We sure do need to make mistakes, day after day. Thanks for the reminder.
Mudpup, thanks for helping me with the technical stuff on this website. I tried it and it worked. But, I'm sticking to this old fashion way of doing things for now. You know what...what you said about the Buddhist outlook on mountains as it relates to us climbing it makes sense after I think about it for awhile. Focusing our effort in climbing a mountain does require us to expend a lot of energy. And we spend no time just simply enjoying and appreciating the beauty and magnificence of the mountain. But walking around the mountain allows us to really soak in the splendor of a mountain. Buddhist was a really wise old soul.
Joey, Welcome! Thanks for your input.
Okay, that's it for now. But, I hope to get to know all of you more as time allows. I apologize for being slow in my reply. My schoolwork does that to me sometimes.
Butterfly
-
I'm confused on the part where you said you are have social phobia, but in the next paragraph, you said you are a gregarious person. And you like to be with ppl. What am I not understanding?
Butterfly
At last something I can answer! :lol:
Compare it with someone with a broken leg, who says that they love running. You would immediately know what they meant, even though it is clear that they are immobilised for the present.
Ptsd is an injury to the emotions. It doesn't mean that you are the injury, or that there is anything organically wrong with you; you are the person you are meant to be, and who you can be again. But until the injury heals there are limitations to functioning that have to be taken into account. Once a broken leg is set you could in theory start running on it again, but you would be daft if you did. It has to heal first, and grow stronger, or else you do more harm to it.
So I have recognised the injury, found a doctor, and am presently both setting the leg and healing the hurt. It will never be the way it was before, but it will be functional, and in some ways stronger than it was.
I hope this helps. Glad to see you again, Butterfly.
-
Hi everyone:
Hello again October:
If you find yourself saying something daft, then just think to yourself, that is not like me. After all, if you said daft things all the time, and were truly daft, you would never notice, would you? So that means that you are a bright person, who sometimes says silly things. As do we all.
What I mean by being mean to yourself is that you have this kind advice for Butterfly, (which I totally agree with you and think it is a helpful way to deal with putting ourselves down, which we all do sometimes, I'm sure) but........at the same time......for yourself.......you seem to be considering this way of dealing with the same type of thoughts as denial, pretending to sort yourself out when you're not sorted, as some failed way of dealing with the negative thinking????
As you said....in a way.....you're taking better care of Butterfly than you are of yourself.
I agree with what you said to Butterfly and so I am stealing your wise words and saying them to you now:
You are not the problem. You are the solution.
I understand that it feels better to hide sometimes, that it seems safer to be invisible. I'm not interested in criticizing you or adding to your discomfort. It's ok to do that when you feel like it and I don't consider it to be damage (not that what I think matters here anyway, but just in case it might seem like that's what I mean to insinuate. It isn't).
I just noticed that you were telling Butterfly to do what seems like you are not allowing yourself to do for yourself.
There is a chance that if you spend some time making positive suggestions to yourself.....that it could help you. That's all.
Right now the feelings come first and then the thoughts.
You could start a new trend by reversing that order a little, not because you, or I, or anyone else thinks there's something wrong with that, but to add to and enhance your life. If you think first.....it might be possible to stop the feelings that are keeping you inside. You might find yourself gaining confidence and doing things you enjoy, more often, or taking steps that you never thought you would. This would be good for you.
The worst thing that could happen would be that you might waste a little time relaxing and saying good stuff to yourself. Being kind to yourself in that way would really only be like embracing the bits that feel like they need embracing and giving them a hug and then adding a little encouragement to boot.
I want to encourage you October, not put you down in any way. I'm so sorry for everything you've suffered as a child and as an adult. I want your suffering to end.
((((((((((((October))))))))))
GFN
-
Hi Butterfly,
Actually I think it was somebody else who was talking about the Buddha climbing the mountain. Other's here can tell you I tend to quote Jesus, as I believe he IS the mountain. :wink:
October,
Your PTSD and social phobia sound very exhausting emotionally. Are they?
If you want to speak about it, how was your brother abused because of you? It sounded like you were blaming yourself for his abuse by someone else. Did I misunderstand?
I think you have a healthy attitude about where you are, how you got there and where you want to be. And I think your posts are beautifuly written considering English is your 'second language'. :wink:
mudpup
-
I want to encourage you October, not put you down in any way. I'm so sorry for everything you've suffered as a child and as an adult. I want your suffering to end.
((((((((((((October))))))))))
GFN
Thanks GFN. I will try to read your post over and try to find a way to reach what it says. Thanks.
Saw my t today. That helps a lot, but leaves me exhausted, so not writing much at the moment.
-
Your PTSD and social phobia sound very exhausting emotionally. Are they?
If you want to speak about it, how was your brother abused because of you? It sounded like you were blaming yourself for his abuse by someone else. Did I misunderstand?
Yes, I am often exhausted just from the effort of staying alive. I wake up exhausted, and then it gets worse all day. :lol: I take St John's Wort if things are really bad, and that takes the edge off. 8)
My mum used to get angry with my older brother when we had the normal kind of rough and tumble games, say if he made me cry by pulling my hair or something - like kids do - she used sometimes to lose her temper and go for him. He would panic and run upstairs, and she would follow, taking off her slipper on the way, and shouting at him. Then lots of shouting, and lots of hitting, and me downstairs, listening to it, and just complete confusion and short circuits of understanding everywhere. He would not cry for a long time, then eventually she would make him cry, and then carry on hitting just for the hell of it. This goes right back. I don't know how far. Certainly before my younger brother arrived, when OB and I were 7 and 5 resp. She hit YB as well, but never in this violent temper way.
My brother didn't blame me, I am glad to say. At the time he and I both knew it was something wrong in mum. Dad was never there, and when we told him he did nothing to stop it. It happened a lot. She used to say not to laugh too much, or we would end up crying. She made sure of that. :shock: The last time was when my brother was about 16, and after she hit him a couple of times he took the slipper out of her hand and hit her back again, and she screeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmeddddddddddd!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
She never did it again after that, strangely enough.
He has forgotten that this ever happened. I haven't. This is one of the things dad says I am supposed not to think about, because I have to remember the good times. Which means that he remembers too. :?
OB now hits his three kids in the same way. No slipper, though. He uses his hands. :cry:
-
October,
My brother didn't blame me, I am glad to say.
I'm not trying to be a pain or your surrogate therapist but I was just wondering if you blame yourself for his abuse. It kind of sounded like it in your original post. Maybe you were just saying your normal childhood crying was why you were 'responsible', so to speak, for his spankings.
No need to respond if you're exhausted.
Relax and have a little marmite on a pickle or whatever it is you put it on. :wink: :lol:
mudpuppy
-
I was just wondering if you blame yourself for his abuse.
Who knows? Maybe. If I had not been there it would not have happened.
Maybe more important would be to work out who Nmum blames for it. Is it OB for picking on me, or me for being there and getting his attention and having fun with him? That might be a more productive route to follow. Nmum jealous of daughter, therefore tries to sabotage sibling relationship by beating up the person daughter is closest to, and most fond of in the world, in (failed) attempt to destroy the trust and closeness. OB was my carer/attachment figure, just as I was the same for YB, and she resented that too.
I think she resented the competiton at every level going. So no, it is not my fault, but I am there, causing the problem, just by existing.
-
This is one of the things dad says I am supposed not to think about, because I have to remember the good times. Which means that he remembers too. :? :
And that he still isn't willing to take responsibility for it, and is still pushing that back on to you.
((((October))))
I'm so sorry that your brother is perpetuating the cycle of abuse; the sad thing is, apparently either we face these things and deal with them, or we act them out because we aren't dealing with them.
God bless you, October.
-
Who knows? Maybe. If I had not been there it would not have happened.
October, if you hadn't been there she would have found some other "reason" for hitting him.
-
I am often exhausted just from the effort of staying alive. I wake up exhausted, and then it gets worse all day.
Ok......so just to stay on my band wagon and see if I can fit all of my 42 feet in my mouth at the same time :shock: ......this is a good example.
What if......part way through the day.......you sit in a comfy lounge chair, or lay in a comfy spot, where it's quiet, close your eyes, take some long, slow, deep breaths, relax your body as entirely as humanly possible, and silently tell yourself:
"I'm renewing my energy.
I am gaining energy this very minute.
I will feel more energetic after this short rest."
While at the same time, visualizing yourself getting up and dancing around, smiling, full of energy and happy, ready to do whatever it is you want to do next. You could see white light coming into your body and giving you strength and energy. You could see yourself swallowing cans of spinach like Popeye (Hey Mudpuppy.....he's my hero too!!) and imagine yourself filling up with lot's of wonderful energy. Picture any good thing that might help create a real impression of energy coming into yourself. (These can vary for entertainment value too!) Repeat these positive suggestions to yourself, while you imagine yourself.... gaining energy and feeling more full of energy. Then say:
"When I get up, I will feel full of energy and enjoy the rest of my day".
Now this isn't to say....that you spend 10 minutes doing this....and suddenly you'll be bouncing off the walls looking for ways to get rid of all the magical excess energy you just created and all while trying to erase your perma-smile. :D
That's not how it works. But........with time and repetition......you might see some benefit and actually begin to feel more energetic, especially, after this little rest, part way through the day.
It's truly amazing what our minds can do for us given the chance.
This technique is just a way to be kind to ourselves and make use of the power within.
In your case, October, the worst thing that can happen is a little time is wasted, while you rest up for the next onslaught of energylessness. :wink:
Or maybe you fall asleep....so you get a little nap in...no biggie.
Sometimes it's tough to get started, or hard to really concentrate....but it can't hurt, as far a I know, unless you tell yourself nasty stuff....like terrorists do. :twisted:
Almost always.....there will be some improvement and sometimes.....quite amazing things can happen...but it takes time to have an effect.
As you work through your feelings about the past, it is still possible to instill good ideas about the future by developing this skill.
I didn't invent this concept. :shock: It is widely applied in many avenues of care because it does work for many, many people. It's virtually free and requires no special training. It's not difficult to learn, doesn't take a whole wack of time out of the day, and has the added benefit of reducing the effects of stress, when applied on a regular basis. What a deal eh? :D :D
Anyhow.....enough from me. I'm glad you still have a T to speak with and I hope things improve for you, no matter by what method.
GFN
-
Hello again everyone,
After reading the postings again, I realized that I misquoted a few ppl...particularly, Bunny, Mudpup, and Delphine. So sorry :( Please accept my apology. I guess this is prove that I'm making mistakes day by day. :roll: I'm getting better at this, slowly but surely. :wink:
Delphine and Jaded, if you are reading this post, just want to say "hello" to both of you. Which I failed to do on my original post. I don't know how that could have happened :? Silly me. :lol:
Mudpup, thanks for mentioning the misquote. Glad to know that you tend to quote Jesus. I would be interested to know what Jesus means to you and why you believe he IS the mountain. If you don't want to go into detail, then I won't mind. But it would be interesting to know :)
October, everytime I see your name, I always want to say October Sky. I'm not sure why. I think it's b/c October is one of my favorite months and time of the year. Now I understand what you were saying about yourself. Thanks for making it clear to me. I find your attitude about where you are, how you got there and where you want to be encouraging to me. B/c sometimes I see something wrong with me for where I am in life and I loose heart b/c of it. So your healthy outlook on your situation in life is a big inspiration for me to see that I'm okay for who I am and what I am. B/c this is me, and this is right. I agree, in some ways we can grow stronger than before. Alot has to do with perspective. The glass is neither half full nor half empty. It is both half full and half empty. To see either or is to see only half the picture.
-
Hi Butterfly,
I have no problem talking about Jesus. I'm sure some here think I do so too much already, but they're very polite and don't tell me to clam up. :wink:
He IS the mountain to me because I believe he is the immovable rock of the Old Testament and the New. He is the rock on which I lean.
He's also the bread of life and the living water, but what I need in the battle with my brother is an immovable rock. When my brother started falsely accusing me of various felonies and having a nervous breakdown and of being just plain evil, he knocked me off my rock for quite some time during which I was quite depressed, not even caring about my own life many times. When I got my feet back under me in the last few months, the anger has remained. And to be frank the depression has come at times. But I have had an anchor to hold me in place, unlike before. Before it was a constant chronic thing. Now he causes pain and damage, but it is healed rather than being a constantly open wound.
Jesus never promised we wouldn't have pain in this life, only that he would heal it.
In fact he guaranteed we would have trouble; "In this world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world".
My brother can squirm and wriggle and do mental backflips to project whatever pathologies he has onto me. He can cause me an immense amount of damage(he already has) but in the end I know who my rock is. A great many prideful, destructive men have broken themselves on that rock over the centuries. I'm counting on one more by the time we're done.
Hope that answers your question, butterfly.
mudpup
-
Mudpup,
That definitely answered my question :D I'm glad you are open about your faith in Jesus Christ. Why should you hide something that means so much to you?! I'm so sorry about your situation with your brother :(
I, too, believe that God is our source of strength to live day to day with a level of sanity in our lives in this crazy world. Better yet, I like to think that God provides us the source of strength which is found within each of us. We'll be alright as long as we stick close to the Vine, isn't that right? What gives me great comfort is knowing that there are better things in store for us beyond this earthly world.
Thanks for sharing what Jesus means to you. He means the whole world to me, too. Mudpup, you are in my prayers and thoughts. As well as your brother. I believe miracles do happen. Heck, they happen everyday. Just the fact that we are saned in this insane world is enough proof that miracles do happen :D Not to mention the fact that we are able to wake up every morning, is a miracle 8) .
Maranatha,
Butterfly
-
Hey, Butterfly: totally off subject and out of the air, but "October Sky" is also the name of one of our (kids and my) favorite movies. Check it out.
((((October)))), sending you love.
-
Mum,
I think it's neat that one of your kids' names is October Sky. What a neat name :D I haven't watched the movie by the same name yet. But it sounds like a good movie to watch.
Nice to hear from you,
Butterfly
-
oops, sorry butterfly.......I write a little nuts sometimes....I sure can see why you misunderstood (can't seem to form full sentences, can I??) My kids and I love that movie, October Sky, but alas, my kids have very pedestrian names!
-
Mum & Butterfly,
I think it's neat that one of your kids' names is October Sky. What a neat name Very Happy I haven't watched the movie by the same name yet.
I had to laugh at this one. At least I am not the only one who gets a little confused by your postings, Mum. Is that left brain fighting the right brain. :lol: I did love the movie, too.
On a more serious note, I have read this whole thread (it is really hard to be gone for 10 days and then have to catch up) and wanted to comment on the original question. Having been raised by an N father who criticized my every move, I always second-guess everything I say and do. I feel so much safer communicating in writing so I can read and re-read before sending. So often I don't comment on things for fear of sounding dumb, even though I am constantly told that I am bright and have good ideas. It is hard to get that negative tape to stop running in your head and replace it with positive, affirming statements. Therapy has been helping alot, but I still have a long way to go.
Butterfly, you are so young (I am in my 50's) and fortunate to be aware of your issues now. I have just started to face the damage my childhood has done to me and wonder how things could have been different if I had been aware early on. But, I can't be sad about what could have been and must just deal with what is and be grateful for the blessings in my life.
October,
Please forgive my psychological ignorance, but what does PTSD stand for? This may have been addressed before, but I missed it. I feel so badly for your situation and pray that you continue to heal and feel better.
Brigid
-
Good morning Brigid,
I feel so much safer communicating in writing so I can read and re-read before sending.
You know that made me start thinking. I feel the same way, but always assumed it was because I was just more articulate in writing. Maybe it actually comes from twenty years of having most of what I said challenged or put down. Hmmm. :?
I also am a psychological ignoramus but I believe it stands for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Sorry for talking out of turn, October. :wink:
And finally, don't feel bad Butterfly. For awhile I thought mum's kid was named October Sky too. :oops: Having never seen the movie, I visualized a bunch of hippies watching some acid flick from the sixties. I didn't want to think what her other kid's names were. :shock:
mudpup
-
Okay, you guys have me cracking up....and only a little bit paranoid (man, am I that hard to follow???) My exN would harp on my "grey" thinking, and that is a sore spot for me. I really am very dominantly right brained, but that is my strength in life as well (artist, former actress, and teacher).
I try not to take myself so seriously now, but I can see I need to read and edit and edit and edit before posting...(but that may just stop me from posting....seriously, that gets really boring for me). I write like I talk, fast! and I promise, if you could hear me, I do it with inflection and personality, so it would make soooo much more sense in person.
That said, (gee whiz, could I get more defensive?) I love the image some of you may have of me from that: little hippie chick with a sitar, bohemian love children everywhere with dirty hair..."oh, moonspirit! It's time for dirt meditation!"
If you knew me, and my kids, you would be rolling on the floor right now!!!!
I simpy have to share this with someone who knows me in person (even though I look like a moron!) I don't care, it's funny!
Now, with tail between legs (but obviously indominatable (sp?) spirit) and no editor in sight) I will focus on the thread again.
I hope no one is offended by the use of "we" in this little thought of mine. I am speaking for myself, and other "nice" people I happen to see going through the same thing.
I think basically, N's are threatened by the innate power and love (the ultimate power) that we, as nice people, have. They see this as a threat and want to shut us up. They are so afraid of the "truth" coming out (that love is everywhere, love is all there is, love is the power/God is in all of us).... and worse yet, that the truth may come out of US!! How dare we speak and demonstrate power?
WE are so nice, we assume everyone is, and agree to shut up. We think, well, they must be right, as everyone must be as loving as we are.
The worst of this "wrong" learning (that most of us now "unlearning") is that its' done when we are young, innocent and impressionable, so it becomes a belief system. Then it runs our lives, until we figure it out.
If anyone could follow that, I am happy. (geeesh)..if you can't, I apologize. (geeesh again). :oops:
-
Hey mum,
Your October Sky post wasn't that bad. When i went back and read it a second time it made sense. Maybe me and Butterfly and Brigid have the problem. :oops: No offense guys. :wink:
I'm right brained as well, maybe that contributed to it.
I definitely followed the last part of your post and agree completely. I think that's where a lot of the envy that is so characteistic of Ns comes from. Something like "Why is everyone else happy and normal and loving and nice? Maybe I'll show them its normal to be miserable and manipulative and grouchy. Otherwise that means I'm nutty and that can't possibly be."
Clear as a bell mum. As usual. :wink:
mudpup
-
Mum,
Don't change a thing. We love you just as you are. I knew what you meant as I have learned how to read and interpret your postings (at least most of the time). But it was so funny to see that Butterfly made the same mistake that I had made at an earlier time when reading something you had written, especially with the outcome being your child's name as October Sky. My "problem" is that I taught business letter writing and typing in a previous life and my writings must (in my mind) be very clear and concise, correctly punctuated and no spelling errors. I'm sure you would find them these days as I have gotten lazier over the years, but I still give it a lot of consideration. I would like to be more free-flowing and less structured in my communications. Something to strive for, I guess.
The balance of your posting was as Mudpuppy said, "clear as a bell." I totally agree that they want the world revolving around dysfunction, anger and lies rather than love, kindness and logic so they can fit in better and maintain control. Deprogramming the negative thoughts is an on-going process and takes a long time to reorient since it was started for many of us at such a young age. As I have said many times before, it is so sad that parents could choose to treat their children this way.
Brigid
-
Mum,
Don't change a thing. We love you just as you are. I knew what you meant ...
My turn to ditto.
GFN
-
Thanks, guys. I'm glad you got my meaning....clear as mud as it can be at times (no offense intended Mud!).
This very concept of "everybody else needs to be miserable" was manifested in my life yesterday, as I picked my son up from an afternoon with dad and he was dark and cranky and worried (not his normal character). He was told by his dad to "get mom to commit" to a certain amount of money toward his college tuition (he is a junior). I said, this should be between me and your dad and we have already discussed it and my son said, "NO dad gave me a chart of how much he would pay and to what schools and under what conditions. I need to know how much you will chip in and since I know you're broke, Now I am all upset and worried...how am I ever going to get to college!!!!???"
I told him to relax, I will see what I can do, beyond that there are scholarships (" mom, you act like I'll get them for sure, but what if I don't......then what???) so I continued, there is financial aid.....etc.
My son, who is normally very relaxed and happy was now out of control catastrophizing everything....you could almost see his father's dark cloud above the poor kids head. Geeeesh.
And my happy go lucky kid actually said to ME, "how can you be all happy all the time when this is coming up and must be decided NOW?"
I can only pray that what I am doing (being happy) helps my son to diffuse the negativity his dad seems determined to make him feel. Uccckkky yucky man! :evil:
-
I think basically, N's are threatened by the innate power and love (the ultimate power) that we, as nice people, have. They see this as a threat and want to shut us up. They are so afraid of the "truth" coming out (that love is everywhere, love is all there is, love is the power/God is in all of us).... and worse yet, that the truth may come out of US!! How dare we speak and demonstrate power?
WE are so nice, we assume everyone is, and agree to shut up. We think, well, they must be right, as everyone must be as loving as we are.
The worst of this "wrong" learning (that most of us now "unlearning") is that its' done when we are young, innocent and impressionable, so it becomes a belief system. Then it runs our lives, until we figure it out.
This is a good summary of our situation from our point of view. I suspect that the N sees it rather differently. They have no authentic experience of altruism or empathy; their world view is one where self rules, and everything else is subordinate to that.
If they are capable of stepping into anyone else's shoes, that is what they will take with them. So they look at us being loving and kind, and they ask themselves, 'what are they after; what is in it for them'. They assume that our motivation is the same as theirs.
So, to them, we are fundamentally selfish, with a veneer of friendliness and love. We are the ultimate hypocrites. While they, of course, are honest as the day is long. They call a spade a spade (gardening metaphor, not racist one, I hope), and do not pretend what they do not feel (as they assume we do.)
My ex MIL refused to come to my ex's confirmation, which took place shortly before our marriage ended. She said she would not cross the street to go, and would not go into a church for such a service, because it would be hypocritical of her. In saying that she was in effect condemning everyone else who was going - and her son - as hypocrites, and in the process feeling very superior to them. Because she could not believe, she could not accept that anyone else did. I told her what I thought of her as a parent for that. Enjoyed it, to be honest. Telling the truth is very cathartic, at times. :twisted:
They have no wish to become as insincere, hypocritical and false as we are. And fortunately for them, there is no chance that they will ever do so. Because they would have to go via the difficult route of self knowledge and humility, and in the process learn what love actually is.
Can't be done.
-
Hi October,
I was going to pick out some quotes from your post to agree with but it ended up being the whole darn thing so I'll just say you nailed it again. You are one sharp lady. :wink:
I can't tell you how many times I have been called a hypocrite. I guess the logic is if you try to be a decent person like most people do and you occasionally stub your toe, you're a hypocrite.
But if you set out to be perpetually angry, try to destroy people who won't kow tow to you and generally make yourself a pain in the arse to all and sundry and you actually succeed at doing all these things, ipso facto; you're not a hypocrite! Congratulations Ns of the world. You are very GENUINE jackasses. :P
mudpuppy
-
You are one sharp lady. :wink:
:oops: :D
-
It seems that N's have a lot of vulnerabilities they are afraid to reveal. Otherwise, they wouldn't feel so threatened by good-hearted folks. They want everybody to feel as miserable(though, they may not show it) as them or worse then them. If not, then they think something is wrong with you and subconsciously perceive you as their enemy. And their mission is to seek and destroy. That's sounds very warped to me.
-
My ex MIL refused to come to my ex's confirmation, which took place shortly before our marriage ended. She said she would not cross the street to go, and would not go into a church for such a service, because it would be hypocritical of her. In saying that she was in effect condemning everyone else who was going - and her son - as hypocrites, and in the process feeling very superior to them. Because she could not believe, she could not accept that anyone else did. I told her what I thought of her as a parent for that. Enjoyed it, to be honest. Telling the truth is very cathartic, at times. :twisted.
And it's a lame excuse. Who cares if she believes or not. No one is checking her credentials. According to her theory, anyone who attends a wedding, bar mitzvah, funeral, baptism, confirmation, etc., without totally buying into the host family's belief system, is a hypocrite. That is just stupid.
bunny
-
Hey Butterfly,
Wanted to get in on this thread. I had a mother who could let me know how I was different. If I did or said somthing it was wrong or not the best thing to do or say. She gave me such a complex I grew up not trusting her view point, because everthiing was wrong.
I find if I laugh about my mistakes, I make light of the errors in my life.
When I do something dumb, I laugh so everyone can hear. I don't try and hide it or be ashamed of the mistake. Somtimes it's better if you don't say too much, you should let it go, shake it off. Get the Idea you made a funny thing happen not a dumb thing.
Try and laugh, others around you will think it's not so serious.
I'm trying to make this work in my life even in a serious time admitting my Marrage was a big mistake. I'm going to laugh once in awhile, tell myself life with an N was a big joke on me. How I will see the next clown coming. We can all learn something from our mistakes.
OR
-
Good afternoon everyone,
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who misinterprets sentences. :lol: Mum, after I carefully read your October Sky posting again, i got it. It sure helps to read things twice sometimes. :lol: By the way, how is your son doing with his college situation? Planning for college can be such a stressful thing. I hope things will work out. I'm sure it will.
Hello Brigid. So you think I'm young? I don't feel it. Age is a funny thing. A person in their 50s can feel more alive than a person in their 20s. It is quite a relative concept, it seems. I agree with you that it is not easy to change from negative thinking to positive thinking. Nothing has worked for me yet. Even trying hard doesn't seem to be effective for me, I keep on losing my grip, and end up the same place where I started. Going to a therapist is a recent and new concept for me. Although, I can see how a good therapist can be very helpful. I wouldn't know where to begin. Wouldn't know how to search for a good therapist. :roll:
Hi, OR. Sure, everyone makes mistakes. That's easy for me to say when I'm not in the heat of the moment. But, when I feel I'm being observed or expected to live up to a certain standard, then I feel pressure to not make any mistakes. If I do, then I feel I've disappointed those who have a high expectations of me. When I do make stupid or careless mistakes I internalize it and feel ashamed of making dumb mistakes. I haven't been able to detach my competence as an individual from the mistakes I make. I find that I make more mistakes when I put pressure on myself to adhere to an imaginary standard that I think others have of me. I start to lose self-confidence and lose focus of the big picture when I start to feel ashamed for making errors, b/c that's all I can see. Then I get all worked up about it and feel very tense. Those mistakes are projected right in front of my mind's eyes, staring me straight in the face. I want to be able to laugh at my own mistakes and not take it so seriously. What mindset do you put yourself in, for you to be able to make light of the matter? What approach do you find works for you?
-
According to her theory, anyone who attends a wedding, bar mitzvah, funeral, baptism, confirmation, etc., without totally buying into the host family's belief system, is a hypocrite. That is just stupid.
bunny
You're right. She did a lot of harm to my ex with her attitude. He had nobody from his family there. Only me and our daughter, and my aunt and uncle and cousin, who came to give him support. And she is still doing it. He is dying, and his parents refuse to believe it. Can't go too far into this, because I have to keep a distance now, but it is very hard to see what is happening to him.
You can imagine what fun I could have if she eventually were accorded a Christian funeral, and what I could do and say about that. :twisted: (But, of course, I wouldn't.)
She says things like 'I thought Christians weren't supposed to do <whatever>.' Making it an extension of the hypocricy motif. :? And ex used to use 'Christian' as a term of abuse to me, too, now I think about it.
-
Hi everyone:
Hiya Butterfly:
...it is not easy to change from negative thinking to positive thinking.
I think this is probably one of the toughest things to do. It seems so big..doesn't it?
It's like trying to change entirely from one kind of creature to another :shock: (seems impossible, almost--it did to me, anyway).
Instead....how about a little change....taking it in baby steps, so to speak?
For instance....rather than expecting your thinking to change from all the nasty stuff...to real positive thoughts, all at once, or every time, how about....when you make a mistake, sometime, deciding to at least...insert one positive thought, along with all the other not so positive ones.
Kind of plan ahead......"Next time I make a really embarassing mistake and start kicking myself mentally for it, I will try really hard to at least remind myself that I'm not perfect, I'm ok, and maybe even laugh at myself."
It needs to be learned.......imprinted in our brain (as the stuff that drags us back is imprinted there needs to be overwritten). So maybe, for example, writing out some sort of statement/plan/goal....for the next time you make a mistake...and reading it over, often, thinking about doing it.....might help??
.....I feel pressure to not make any mistakes. If I do, then I feel I've disappointed those who have a high expectations of me. When I do make stupid or careless mistakes I internalize it and feel ashamed of making dumb mistakes. I haven't been able to detach my competence as an individual from the mistakes I make.
This sounds like you have a preconceived idea in your mind about exactly how perfect you must be, in order to pass the test of being observed by others, and that if you do make a mistake.....you have decided that other people will think you are stupid or careless (and that you think your mistakes are stupid and careless...maybe not just the mistake is...but YOU are stupid and careless to make such mistakes???)...and so you feel ashamed???
You think your worth as a person is directly linked to how many and what type of mistakes you make/have made and what others think??
If so.....would it help to start telling yourself that you don't give a hoot what other people think? I mean....daily...and really, really work at helping yourself believe that your worth does not depend on what other people think?
You are a valuable person. Would it help to tell yourself this, often, to reinforce your value to and within yourself??
These were things that definately helped me.
GFN
-
Hi all again:
October wrote:
And ex used to use 'Christian' as a term of abuse to me, too, now I think about it.
He was programmed to think all Christians are hypocrites and believed it?
Then.....he used your core beliefs against you?
I bet that hurt!!! :!: :!:
Jerk!! :evil:
GFN
-
He was programmed to think all Christians are hypocrites and believed it?
Then.....he used your core beliefs against you?
I bet that hurt!!! :!: :!:
Thanks GFN
Strangely enough, all I remember is confusion, wondering why I was accused of so much, when actually guilty of so little. :?
I didn't let the hurt get through. If you show an abusive drunk that you are hurt, or vulnerable in any way, you are asking for trouble. I stood my ground, even when he threatened me. Once, when he couldn't get his own way, he said he was going to break every window in the house. Our daughter was there and she started to cry. I ignored him, but picked her up and said to her, don't worry. Daddy is free to break every window if he wants to; that is his choice. But I am then free to ring the police and that is my choice, and that is what I will do, and Daddy will then be taken away. Then I took her out of the house. When we came back, the windows were all still there.
What he saw was someone very strong, who he could not destroy or overcome. It was only after he left that I ended up night after night for months, curled on the floor, in the dark, after my young daughter had gone to bed, crying and crying. He never knew.
Doesn't happen now. Well, not often. :?
-
(((((October)))))). I'm sorry you cried on the floor. I've been there, and it would frustrate me that the floor didn't get any lower than it was. If it had been a hole, I'd have crawled down in it.
You talk about your daughter a lot, and you really sound like an incredible mom. I wonder if, like me, it's your child that keeps you alive.
My children are what got me off the floor. When thier dad cheated on me, for the umpteenth (and last) time 9 years ago, they were younger and I HAD to take care of them....if not, I wouldn't have gotten out of bed for a year, I think.
Then last year, when I lost my bid to relocate and everything seemed so dark (including my spot on the floor), a well placed jolt to the heart from my otherwise non-confrontational son did it for me.
-
I'm sorry for your pain (((((((October)))))) and yours too ((((((Mum)))))).
Many of those tears were tears of frustration, for me. 17 years is a long time to cry (I spent that long with/married to an alcoholic) and then after. It becomes habit.
But......the good news is.....habits can be changed/altered/obliterated.
It was only after he left that I ended up night after night for months, curled on the floor, in the dark, after my young daughter had gone to bed, crying and crying.
What is it about dark? :? I always turned off all the lights, after my kids went to bed, back then, after he was finally gone. I was nicer to myself than you though, October and Mum. I sat in a cozy lounge chair, in the corner and rocked. :(
I did pray a lot between crying and I know that helped keep me from totally losing it. (Thankyou God).
....a well placed jolt to the heart from my otherwise non-confrontational son did it for me.
I used to think I was a fairly positive person until I have had the priviledge of speaking with you, Mum. You have inspired me to try harder!
I'm glad your son did this for you.
:D
GFN
-
GFN: I just wrote what I thought to be a very understandable post (a feat for me, as you know) and my computer quit on me...uggh. so I will try to be quick (and maybe not understandable?)
Thank you for your kind words. They mean a lot coming from one who I always thought to be such an enlightened soul.. thank you again.
What my last reply was about was this: Faith.
I realize that my darkest moments are when I have lost faith: in myself, in love, in God, in the inherent goodness of humankind. My most unwise choices have been made in moments where I have lost faith. My best have been made with giant leaps of faith. And it is basically a faith in myself/and or God/and or the Universe....extrapolate away!. So when I am true to myself, I do best....the truth certainly has set me free!
I am not always "pain free", but I find I spend less time "stuck" in pain than ever before. I can choose to feel the pain and use it to learn (and if I want to explore the pain....then damnit, I will!) and then when I am done with it, I can let go and transform it, and feel something else instead. It's up to me!
Sounds easy, I know. But like you said, it's baby steps, and just like a baby is determined to figure out this thing called walking....we can all do it!!
October, I admire you greatly. You are moving through. It's all good.
-
In case there is some confusion: by "faith" I mean whatever that means to everyone. I know there are a lot of Christians posting here, but I don't want anyone to think I meant ONE "faith" in particular, although I understand that might be the case for many, and for that I am happy.
My own "faith" is non denomenational, I guess, actually I am not really sure, as putting a title on it doesn't make any sense to me. I just don't want anyone to feel my little speech on faith had any religious overtone, as I certainly would not want be exclusive. WE are ALL equal souls, whatever path we walk.
-
In case there is some confusion: by "faith" I mean whatever that means to everyone. I know there are a lot of Christians posting here, but I don't want anyone to think I meant ONE "faith" in particular, although I understand that might be the case for many, and for that I am happy.
I hope that we don't always need to put a disclaimer on our postings regarding faith, belief, God, Jesus, spiritual guidance, etc., etc. I hope that we are all accepting and understanding of each other's beliefs and we can feel free to express what those beliefs are for us personally without worrying about offending someone else. One of my pet peeves is the political correctness that our world revolves around and so many people looking for ways to be offended rather than just accepting that everyone can have their own opinions and beliefs and should be able to express them freely.
I am not criticizing what you said, Mum, but just wish you didn't feel the need to say it.
Brigid
-
Brigid, thanks, and no, I did not feel criticized. I also wish I didn't feel the need to say it, but that is not the fault of the board, or society, but only my own nuerosis about ever "offending" anyone.....(still working on not apologizing for my own voice!) The"PC ness" of this society just sort of feeds my own self doubt at times. I'm really glad you pointed that out.
-
GFN and October:
I remember I had been reading from the "Living Bible" and the N happen to come in. He was an avowed agnostic.......he just pointed at my Bible and just laughed. He then began to ridicule my faith and that it was something that someone had made up. His riduicule of something that I held dear really hurt. I still remember the smirk on his face. Patz
-
Good morning everyone:
Hey Mum:
Thank you for your kind words. They mean a lot coming from one who I always thought to be such an enlightened soul.. thank you again.
I'm not sure I'm such an enlightened soul but thankyou for saying so and you are quite welcome to and deserve many, many kind words Mum!!
My most unwise choices have been made in moments where I have lost faith. My best have been made with giant leaps of faith.
And you're not the only one! As you say, there are so many kinds of faith..faith in self, people, chance, etc.
Even though I feel as if my faith in God has not wavered, I admit that I have lost faith in myself, in others, and many other kinds of faith, sometimes. It is very comforting to know that I am not the only one.
Gaining back each kind of faith is a challenge but something that does much good. It's definately work but so worth it!
Hiya Patz:
He then began to ridicule my faith and that it was something that someone had made up.
What a turd!! :twisted:
His riduicule of something that I held dear really hurt.
And so it would and so he knew it would and so he took advantage and hurt to his heart's content!!! :twisted: :twisted:
Makes me wanna hurl when I think of all the pain those who behave so Nish cause. I know we all behave a bit Nish sometimes but it's the clear intent to cause deep harm that I find so revolting.
Cruel intentions.....that's what prevails in these people and what really jabs eh?
I guess as we learn to put up walls to all that and deflect it back in their faces, or walk away from it, or let it wash over us, like water off a duck, or let it pass through us, without letting it stick, or whatever way we are learning to evacuate this crap from our systems......we become like filters.....trying to pick out the thick sh#$%^t, so we can flush it, and allow the mirky rest to flow down the drain.
:shock: (sorry....that was kind of vivid).
The thing is.....he can think, say, do what he wants about your core beliefs.....and so can you. And Patz, it's easy to see that he did not win. He did not destroy those beliefs or even shake them up. :D
GFN
-
Patz,
he just pointed at my Bible and just laughed. He then began to ridicule my faith and that it was something that someone had made up.
You know why he laughed? Because the bible doesn't say;
"In the beginning (fill in the name of your own personal N here) created the heavens and the earth."
Since the bible doesn't say they're God they know its make believe. :wink: :twisted:
Brigid and mum,
I agree with you both. I am never offended when someone shares their Buddihst beliefs or Native American shamans or astrology or even atheism. So how come I'm always worried about giving offense if I mention my faith, and always feel it needs a disclaimer like mum does? Are we just being polite or have we been trained by our Ns? :?
mudpup
-
I think there have been some loud, intolerant, hatemongers claiming to be Christians, who have given the rest of us a bad name.
Some people literally twitch when I tell them what my faith is... others start throwing things (verbally). It's really sad.
I think once you've experienced that, you learn to be very gentle when broaching the subject.
-
Hello All:
Thanks for the reply. My ex N was really cruel. Not cruel phyiscally but emotionally. Anything that I held dear was subject to ridicule. It would be nothing for him to ridicule people and how they lived their lives. He would just look at me and say "It is truly unbelievable how stupid these people are." It was as if he had the answers to everything. Toward the end he would take any opportunity to make me feel less than.
I can really relate on the other thread under suicide where the person posting feels there is no light at the end of the tunnel. There would be days, weeks that would go by that was a fog. The only thing that would make me get up in the morning was getting my son to school.
It is only through my faith that I was able to get through. I am sure there are others posting here of other faiths and beliefs and that is all acceptable. What is not acceptable is someone attacking your core beliefs and not making room for you. There is room for all, love for all.
On another note:
I went to my hair salon the other day and my poor hairdresser is married to an ultimate N. I have given her different links. Hopefully she will look those up and I plan to give her this site so she can post. Just keep her in your prayers as she has gone through a lot of physical suffering as in operations and health issues. Instead of going to the hosptial the N goes out with the "guys" while she is in surgery. So pray for her. Love Patz
-
You talk about your daughter a lot, and you really sound like an incredible mom. I wonder if, like me, it's your child that keeps you alive.
I think if she had not come along I might never have realised the truth about what is around me. I am happy to put up with whatever comes along, but I am not happy for her to have the same. :)
Looking after her helps me stay grounded in reality, and now she is turning into a teenager I think it is great to see how normal and natural she is - ie terrible at times. I think abused children often do not have the freedom to be teenagers. I went straight from age 8 to adult, as far as I remember. :lol:
Yes, she keeps me going. And when she leaves to make her own life, it will be very difficult for me, but it will be the right thing to do. Then I might just pack a bag and walk the Himalayas or something. 8)
-
What is it about dark? :? I always turned off all the lights, after my kids went to bed, back then, after he was finally gone. I was nicer to myself than you though, October and Mum. I sat in a cozy lounge chair, in the corner and rocked. :(
I did pray a lot between crying and I know that helped keep me from totally losing it. (Thankyou God).
GFN
Dark is safe. And nobody can see me. 8)
I lost my faith in people, bit by bit, after this time, as I turned to one source of help after another and failed to explain properly what I wanted. But God was always there. Or rather, the angels were. :) No people, just angels.
-
He was an avowed agnostic.......he just pointed at my Bible and just laughed. He then began to ridicule my faith and that it was something that someone had made up. His riduicule of something that I held dear really hurt. I still remember the smirk on his face. Patz
Picture the Day of Judgement. N stands before the Throne. Then Our Lord points at him, and just laughs. And you are free to join in with him, if you want to. :wink:
-
Then I might just pack a bag and walk the Himalayas or something. 8)
Something to look forward to, October!!! :D Either walking around and looking at their glory from that perspective, or climbing to the top to get a glimpse of those magnificent views!!!
But I bet you'll be back, often, and stay available to be the loving, welcoming grandmother, for your grandchildren, that your mother wasn't for your child.
Picture the Day of Judgement. N stands before the Throne. Then Our Lord points at him, and just laughs. And you are free to join in with him, if you want to. :wink:
You crack me up sometimes!! :D :D :D
GFN
-
Hey there, GFN!
I'm going to give your idea of "planning ahead" a try. I think the idea is practical and doable for me and how it can be effectively incorporated on a daily basis. Thanks for your suggestion.
I hope that we don't always need to put a disclaimer on our postings regarding faith, belief, God, Jesus, spiritual guidance, etc., etc. I hope that we are all accepting and understanding of each other's beliefs and we can feel free to express what those beliefs are for us personally without worrying about offending someone else.
Ditto :!: :!:
I feel the same way, Brigid.
I feel there is so much I can learn from you guys here on this board. And for that, I'm grateful. You guys have gone through so much. I'm not sure if I'm one of the youngest ppl on this board. I kinda feel I am. Thanks for having me on board.
-
I'm going to give your idea of "planning ahead" a try. I think the idea is practical and doable for me and how it can be effectively incorporated on a daily basis. Thanks for your suggestion.
Now yur talkin' Butterfly!!! And you're very welcome too.
It might take awhile but it will probably help. Best of luck!!
Thanks for having me on board.
Thanks for being here. Sometimes I think of all of our voices as trying to learn a difficult piece of music. It ain't easy and it takes time and patience and great effort but I really believe we will all sing some day!!!
GFN
-
Butterfly,
I'm not sure if I'm one of the youngest ppl on this board. I kinda feel I am. Thanks for having me on board.
We love having you here, but always, always remember, age before beauty. :wink: You can interpret that however you wish.
Brigid
-
You guys are such sweet blessings to me :) Truly so.
Yes! I, too, believe we will sing some day. And the tune will be oh so sweet. 8) We are more than survivors. We are victors; for we didn't allow the N's in our lives to destroy our spirits. They may have wounded us, but we didn't allow them to destroy us.
Cheers to all,
Butterfly
-
October, or here's another possibility for Patz's scumbag exN:
he comes back and has to do it all again....same garbage, same trauma, same pain.....no enlightenment...like "Groundhog day" only over lifetimes. OR he just comes back as a cockroach! (again and again) And Patz squishes him.
Just some "other" after life thoughts (although I like your judgement day one just fine!!!)
-
Mum:
Thanks I will set up that Orkin "hotel" for that ex N for sure. :lol:
Even though he tried to diminish me, I nevertheless continued on and I stand today as an individual burnished by fire. He might have won that battle but I won the war. Much love Patz
-
Thanks I will set up that Orkin "hotel" for that ex N for sure.
"xNs check in, but they don't check out"
Funny Patz. :lol: