Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: write on April 03, 2005, 10:06:50 AM
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I missed the end of Mrs Schiavo's life, being out of the states, but I am shocked to read of it now. What could people be thinking to turn a family into a battleground like this?
There seem to me to be two issues: whilst a family should define with consensus amongst themselves the outcome of a sad case like this, what defines 'the family'? What if there is no dialogue let alone consensus? If there is even a hint of egoism ( never mind narcissim ) dignity and consideration quickly fly out of the window as primary motivation.
And second: the role of governement and legislature in the life of the individual.
That most private place, death, deserves to be preserved as an individual passing, not to be take over by people who at the end of the day are basically seeking to preserve their own political careers.
People here will understand what I am saying, but would a narcissist?
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Like you, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the motivations in this case. I guess we all had no choice since it was on the news 24-7. The problem is, I think it was a mix of narcissism (on both sides), genuine love, philosophical disagreements about what life is, and a personal long-standing animosity between the parties. Not a great mix.... Unlke the cable news stations, I didn't think there were any obvious bad-guys versus good-guys in this case, although I had my personal opinion about who was doing the right thing.
But at least it got us all talking.
I think Americans can be very naive and childlike, and narcissistic about what we can control. I think that a lot of people didn't realize (or want to think about) what the end of life looks like for many people-- a sizeable number of us die in hospice, with fuzzy boundaries between when we are here versus gone, and a lot of drawn-out pain to the families. That's just what it looks like (I've been through it before with a number of relatives). Taking out the feeding tube is how a lot of people die.
Someday a very smart person will be able to figure out everything that went on here and how it was driven by 45 different forces. But I agree with you narcissism (along with the other 44 things!) played a role.
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I think it was a basically a messed-up family's dirty laundry played out in public. We would see thousands of these dramas if they all got on the news. As for congress getting involved, that was just some crap. Guess I'm getting jaded in my middle age.
bunny
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I think it was a basically a messed-up family's dirty laundry played out in public. We would see thousands of these dramas if they all got on the news. As for congress getting involved, that was just some crap. Guess I'm getting jaded in my middle age.
You don't have to be jaded to find that whole thing despicable. That poor woman was used as a football in some kind of sick contest.
But why did so many of the public get so involved? That's what I find interesting. It was kind of like Lady Diana's death-- yes, it was sad, but also it had an everyday quality to it-- people do die. Where did the unfathomable grief come from? My guess, as a person who has no idea whatsoever but just feels like talking about it ( :) ) is that suddenly we as a nation had to look death in the face, the real stuff (not in movies) and we just didn't like it all that much. And we were so surprised at how messy it all is! That is the part that shocked me. I assumed most families had faced taking out a feeding tube at one time or another, and knew that this is how it sometimes goes at the end of life.
All of the messiness and refusal to admit that things don't always go the way we like, and that even if we wish someone would get better, they might not, and that there are not always absolute rules (and that we don't always know the only moral way) and furthermore just because we didn't get what we want doesn't mean the person disagreeing with us is evil incarnate-- all of that was pretty embarrassing to watch. It was like watching all of the N in our society reflected back. Ugly!
What did folks in other countries think? I know we have some brits on the board.
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From what I understand Terri was looking into getting a divorce at the time of her "heart attack". As I watched this ordeal unfold on TV I viewed it from Terri's position of possibly being in an unhappy abusive marriage and related it to my own life.
What if something had happened to me during those last two weeks when N was "getting things in order" before he left our marital home? I hadn't told anyone about what was going on between X N and me. Had something dreadful happened to me...X N would have been the one to decide my final fate. :shock: We all know what his decision would be.
I don't like the fact that it took Mr. Shiavo 7 years to come forward with his wife's "wishes". My gut tells me there was something dark going on here. Sanctity of marriage? This man started a new life with another woman and had two children with her. IMHO he forfeited any sanctity of marriage he was entitled to. Mr. Schiavo reminds me of my X N so I am prejudiced against him.
Although Judges ruled on this one way... it doesn't necessarily make it right. Believe me, Judges make mistakes. It will be interesting to see the autopsy results.
I truly believe that it was not clear as to what her wishes were and I would prefer to err on the side of life.....especially since there is a strong possibility that a N was her "guardian".
This is just my opinion and I hope no one takes offense to it. This probably belongs in a crossfire section. :wink:
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That was my post.
Mia
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Ok, I have to give my two cents.
When my father died, he was on life support. He had such a bad stroke it was apparent he would never be the same. In my parents will, it was decided no life support.
We took our father off at 4pm on a Tuesday night. He lived until 3pm on a Saturday. Was it hard to do? Yes. Hard to watch? Yes. Did we feel it was almost cruel? Yes. We felt bad like maybe he was "thirsty" or needed food.
But the thing was he wouldn't of wanted to "live" like that. Is that really living? Is it worth putting your family thru the stress and financial burden of keeping a heart alive that has no purpose but to beat?
It's a hard decision to make, but you know what? If we didn't have all this medical technology today, he would of had his stroke and been gone. We're the ones who jump their heart, put on life support, give the IV's too keep them going. Because WE don't want to see them go. If we let nature well enough alone sometimes, things would happen as God intended.
(Don't get me wrong, medicine can work wonders, but sometimes it also can prolong a lost cause.)
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What did folks in other countries think? I know we have some brits on the board.
As far as I understand the law in this country (UK), if a person is in a persistent vegetative state, which is one where doctors say there is extensive brain damage and no chance of recovery, and all that is keeping the person alive is the feeding tubes, then an application can be made to the courts to allow the feeding to be withdrawn. I am not sure whether this is made by the family or the doctors, but I know that it has to be decided by the courts, and there has to be consensus that there will be no recovery.
Following this decision, the feeding tubes are removed, and the person is allowed to die with dignity, and in the presence of their family. This has been the legal situation for some years now, since, I think, a case following the Hillsborough tragedy some years ago.
I think that my views from a distance of the Schiavo case are that many people attempted to make political capital out of a personal tragedy, and I am very relieved that the courts did not allow this to happen, but sad that it took 7 years to reach a decision. From a Christian point of view I believe in the sanctity of life, but I also believe in the sanctity of death, and I do not believe that to put a tube down someone's throat and keep them alive when they would otherwise die is right. When there is no hope whatever of recovery this becomes a form of cyrogenics; a denial of the reality of death.
Some people have called this death murder, but that to me is a gross misrepresentation. To withdraw food from a conscious person is murder, but to take artificial sustenance from a person who has effectively been dead for over 15 years is an act of compassion for all concerned, I would say.
If I can make a very general comment about the US, having never been there, and from the outside :oops: , I would say that there is a focus on eternal youth, and a denial of ageing and of death that is rather disturbing to see. We suffer from it too, but perhaps not as much yet. There is an old saying; 'Everyone has to die of something', and yet every death is seen as a tragedy, every illness as avoidable, every mischance as someone's fault. When in reality death, illness and mischance are everywhere in life.
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I know Michael Schiavo was really villified in the press. Who knows what he deserves or doesn't deserve, but I found a site that isn't political and doesn't take a stand on the issues but that does outline a lot more about Michael than I knew. For instance, it took him so long to sue to take out her feeding tube because he was trying a lot of therapies in hope she would get better. He went to nursing school to try to help her as much as possible, which of course took time.
Here's the site if anyone wants to read a bunch of facts about the case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo#Malpractice_suit
(Of course, fact can be presented lots of different ways. But I thought this site was very matter-of-fact.)
As if we need any more information about it! But I have the opposite feeling as Mia, I guess because I saw all kinds of parental N in the parents. AND... (da da da dum) my parents are N. So welcome to projection land, I guess :)
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Andrea said
But the thing was he wouldn't of wanted to "live" like that. Is that really living? Is it worth putting your family thru the stress and financial burden of keeping a heart alive that has no purpose but to beat?
A year and a half ago my Mom, my brothers, and myself stopped dialysis and had the feeding tube withdrawn for my Dad. However, it was clear that this was my Dad's wish. In Terri's case, I'm not convinced that it was her wish and I still think her hubby has something to hide. This leads me to Vunil's quote:
As if we need any more information about it! But I have the opposite feeling as Mia, I guess because I saw all kinds of parental N in the parents. AND... (da da da dum) my parents are N. So welcome to projection land, I guess
I'm projecting too. I'm sure if I had N parents I would be on your team, Vunil. But since I have a XN that reminds me so much of Shiavo...I think he is the N. Will the real N please stand up. Anyone remember TO Tell the Truth? :wink:
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Oooh man, I keep forgetting to sign my posts today.
sorry, that was me again. :oops:
mia
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Mia, I have (as you well know) one of those ex's as well. And when I read a bit about the husband I did raise an eyebrow. But her parents were unrealistically hanging onto....what? What is so very awful about death? Why are they soooo afraid of it after so long for thier child?
Their attachment was disturbing, as the pain of having thier child in that state became some sort of sickness in and of itself. I abhor (sp?) what was done with this politically, as Terri was no longer a human but a cause. It disgusts me.
But in thinking of all of this, and having a very N ex, I don't really believe all the ills of the earth can be seated in those N laps. All the evil and negativity in this world may seem, on a personal level, to come in that N package, but there is so much more to life than THEM controlling everything. Not everything they do is pure evil (just a whole lot of it).
I am certain NO ONE can ever know what went on in that family, perhaps not even Michael or the parents...."truth" is a very difficult thing to pin down. I, for one, am happy they let her body go, as her spirit may well have gone quite a while ago.
As my own mother is leaving this life, many of her children have concluded, that the "real mom" left us a while ago.....and her body is just waiting to catch up....
This is why I was happy they let it be, and let her body go....
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I have two big problems with this case.
First, the primary doctor who diagnosed PVS is a euthanasia enthusiast who believes Alzheimer patients should be denied food and water and who once diagnosed as PVS a person who could comminicate non verbally and feed himself. Thank goodness that court rejected his diagnosis.
He only examined Terry Schiavo once for less than a half hour. On that single cursory exam hinged her life. Most experts in the field take many hours over several weeks to make a diagnosis. Even so, a study found a forty three percent error rate in PVS diagnoses. People argue the death penalty should be abolished because a small fraction of people are falsely convicted. Its a good argument. Why are so many people willing to hold a pillow over the face of people diagnosed with PVS, when apparently nearly half of them aren't. Actually holding a pillow over their face would be more humane than dehydrating them to death. Imagine if your local pound were caught dehydrating and starving the animals they euthanize. :roll:
Second, her 'wishes' as to being kept alive were dependent on the testimony of an interested party and his brother. If somebody had approached the court and said Terry promised me her boom box after she died, this person would be tossed out of court. But if its her life that's at stake, the court is willing to listen to the testimony of a guy who more than one nurse testified said "When is this bitch going to die".
He would not even allow the basic physical therapy to keep her limbs from becoming contorted from lack of motion. Neither he nor the court would allow an MRI or a PET scan. They wouldn't allow a swallowing test, which several nurses stated she could pass and which would have allowed the removal of the feeding tube and her being fed orally.
I see nothing N like in parents who believe their daughter is still 'there' to some degree, trying to save her life.
And I don't see anything wrong with Congress intervening to ask the Federal courts to review whether or not her civil rights were being violated. What is a more basic civil right than life. The bill passed congress with support from both parties. Even Ralph Nader was on her parents side. This should not be, and I don't think it is, a partisan issue.
The civil courts are a horrible mess. If there is no living will, shouldn't the presumption be, as mia put it, for life not death. Shouldn't her life get as much protection as her posessions in court?
I have no problem with a person explicitly stating in writing they do not wish to be kept alive artificially under specific circumstances.
I've got a big problem with a system that essentially leaves a person who cannot speak for herself at the mercy of the 'word' of a person who has a financial and emotional interest in having her dead.
Talk about "Voiclessness"! :evil:
If I were a disabled person in this country I would be very afraid. :x
mudpuppy
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I've got a big problem with a system that essentially leaves a person who cannot speak for herself at the mercy of the 'word' of a person who has a financial and emotional interest in having her dead.....
If I were a disabled person in this country I would be very afraid. :x
you know - this is exactly how i felt.... i know this is such a touchy subject.. i know also peoples feelings will be shaped by their personal experience. i dont want to step on any toes - but i feel real strongly about this one too.
i dont know what the reality was, dont know what was really going on.... i -do- believe the husband was motivated by financial interest, and im very disappointed that as americans we are so involved with the 'brain' that we forget the heart......??.... just becuase someones brain isnt working as we think it 'should', that just doesnt invalidate the rest of that persons self and life..
my roommate when my child was young had a daughter that was severely developmentally delayed.... really severely.... this childs 'brain' was virtually nonexistent..... but she had a very rich *emotional* and family life....... she continues to live and is in her early twenties now.
knowing this child when she was younger, screaming incomprehsibly, throwing things, difficult to control, impossible to understand, unable to speak, barely able to feed herself, certainly impossible to leave unsupervised, and watching this mother struggle to raise this child, with absolute unfailing devotion, was something that i will never ever ever forget.... they were a family. they really loved each other, they had friends, birthday parties, pets.... it taught me theres so much more to life than 'the brain'.
its difficult to believe but this child FINALLY grew into herself after years of this mothers superhuman patience. she is mellow, and gentle, and kind, even though she still 'thinks' about the level of maybe a third grader, cant read, cant even really speak, and will always need to be cared for by others to some degree. however, she is loved, and can love. her emotional life is intact and flourishes.
id almost rather be around someone who can love and not think, than someone who can think and not love.... :>>
hope this wasnt offensive to anyone. its been on my mind a lot.
d's mom
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ps i also wonder how it would have been if the -husband- had been in the hospital and the -wife- was with another man, trying to end the -husbands- life with potential monetary gain..
i just envision a lot more outcry.... if the tables were turned.... the wife would have been vilified and the husband defended a lot more... it seems to me that woman are seen as slightly more 'dispensable'.. and still the 'property' of the husband, legally...... whenever im facing an ethical question i try to turn the tables.. if it doesnt hold up, there could be a problem.
in this case.. im not sure it would have turned out the same, if the husband were the one in the hospital....
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in this case.. im not sure it would have turned out the same, if the husband were the one in the hospital....
Perhaps the emotions on this case are running too high at present for anyone to work out what is true and what is not. Here is the story of Tony Bland, from a Christian medical perspective;
http://www.cmf.org.uk/ethics/content.asp?context=article&id=1368
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Hi, all--
One thing severely muddying up this case (not a reference to mudpup!) is the media. The link I included awhile back (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo#Initial_medical_crisis) gives a much more thorough timeline than the media have done.
I am pretty angry at the media for trying to simplify the case and get people riled up-- presumably for money. They and the politicians are the real demons in this case, in my opinion.
Anyway, I'll stop posting about it. I will say that a lot of the demonizing of the husband (e.g., he just wants to make money) and doctors (e.g., they didn't try to diagnose her) just don't seem supported by the facts. And the parents lied a lot-- they said that Terry spoke (!) even though she has no brain capacity for speech and has not for 15 years. Magically she only spoke to them and no one else. That is one of the things that "pinged" my N meter. I know there is projection there-- my parents lie, so...
Which is not to demonize the parents, either. All involved could have behaved better.
And all of us project our experiences onto the situation. With the media's help :twisted:
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mud said:
People argue the death penalty should be abolished because a small fraction of people are falsely convicted. Its a good argument.
Not only that but inmates on death row get appeal after appeal before they are "put to death". Look at Scott Peterson, it will be 20 years before he actually gets the death penalty. I"ll never understand what the rush was to have Terri die and it does disturb me.
This should not be, and I don't think it is, a partisan issue
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I agree. This was a rare time when this wasn't a partisan issue. Jesse Jackson of all people was in support of the parents. Known Hollywood liberals from LA LA Land like Susan Sarandon were in support of Terri living. I live in a suburb outside of Philly and many of the local liberals were in support of Terri living just as there were Conservatives who swung the other way.
There were too many questions as to whether or not this is what Terri wanted. Yes, many would not want to live the way she was living BUT that doesn't mean she would not want to. Regardless of what the parents were sayiing or what good old hubby was saying....this was about Terri and I agree with Mud.....her voice was ignored.
I was joking with Vunil that if I had N parents I would be on his team but in my heart I was on Terri's team.
The courts have way too much power and that scares me. Something needs to change.
Mia
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Not only that but inmates on death row get appeal after appeal before they are "put to death". Look at Scott Peterson, it will be 20 years before he actually gets the death penalty. I"ll never understand what the rush was to have Terri die and it does disturb me.
Oh, no! I'm posting again!
I just have to say, as an active death penalty opponent in a very execution-happy state, that the folks on death row here do not get "appeal after appeal"-- just the opposite. They are rushed to their ends. Terry was in a vegetative state for 15 years-- the whole idea of it being a rush to have her die is from the media (to make things dramatic), in my opinion.
Her parents got tons and tons of appeals and rerulings and higher court rulings. For over seven years. They got the attention of governors and senators and activists all over the place. Death row inmates, especially in (blank), the not-so-advanced state where I live, do not get anything close to that. When the major crime lab where most of the DNA evidence is processed was shown to be tainted and corrupt, nothing changed-- people kept on being put to death based on the bad evidence.
So, to me, it was otherworldly to see so much time and energy spent on evaluating the situation of Terri, as sad as it was, and so little (basically none) spent on people on death row, some of whom might be innocent. (Not Scott Peterson, guilty s.o.b. that he is!). In the states where executions happen a lot, there also tends to be a real sloppiness around the evidence and the way the accused are tried. And no one seems to really care.
Something in all of it just felt so weird-- and morally inconsistent.
Anyway. I'll stop. I KNOW I'm being argumentative and I just can't help it. Just ignore me :roll:
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Hi vunil, anna and mia,
I am not sure what her husband's motivation was. I only know what third parties like the nurses said about him and the fact that he specifically denied her therapy which would have made her more comfortable and might have helped her. Maybe he sincerely believed what he said. The point is nobody knows and that's a pretty thin reed on which to deny food and water to someone. She never had a disinterested advocate in court.
The doctors voted 3 to 2 that she was PVS. One of the two has a documentd history of misdiagnosing PVS, and advocating for euthanasia in cases which the vast majority of people and doctors would not. She did not have disinterested medical opinions in court. That's also a pretty thin reed.
The parents claimed she tried to speak to them. True. But one of her lawyers filed an affidavit with the court that he heard her try to speak. Many of the nurses who attended her over the years claimed she tried to speak. Some of the doctors who examined her believed her vocalizations were attempts at speech. She was apparently capable of speech for some time after her brain injury. When the doc hired by the court thumped her between the eyes she recoiled and moaned. He called this an involuntary reaction. Other doctors wouldn't. From what I understand it is impossible through a CAT scan to tell whether she was incapable of speech. Who knows.
Thats the point. Nobody including, the judges, had any idea what her wishes really were or what her condition really was. Maybe she was PVS, maybe not. Maybe she would have wanted to be disconnected maybe not. It seems to me when that is the case the courts should err on the side of life. If not, the state is going to be in the business of executing people whose only crime is they can't speak for themselves.
mud
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Hey vunil,
What's the matter with being argumentative? You're not being mean or nasty, you're just stating your opinion. There's nothing wrong with that. :wink: :D
mud
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Mud told Vunil:
What's the matter with being argumentative? You're not being mean or nasty, you're just stating your opinion. There's nothing wrong with that.
That's what I love about this board. Everyone has a voice! :)
Mia
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I happen to be in a very good position to weigh in on this one.
My Nmom had Munchausen's Syndrome - and Munchausen's by Proxy - BIG TIME.
What this means is: she took advantage of every real illness and frailty she had, and she did everything in her power to exacerbate any illness, and when my Edad was ill and dying from a lingering dementia type illness, she withheld his meds, provoked him, and made his life a living hell until he would lash out at her, whereupon she'd wail oh poor me and try to get my Nsib and myself to quit our jobs and move in with her full time as permanent caretakers.
I finally had enough of this and broke off contact after an extremely abusive series of phone calls from her and Nsib.
Shortly therafter (a couple of months) she managed to get herself hospitalized for what should have been a routine UTI treatable with antibiotics (according to her live-in caretaker, whom I had been while Nmom was charging the poor soul RENT by way of thanks).
In the hospital, she rapidly picked up several nosocomial infections, one of which eventually killed her.
When I went to see her, I was treated like a piece of S**T by the nurses, and the physicians, and the entire hospital staff. I found out much later that Nmom and Nsib had been slandering me to everyone within earshot, as hard as they could shovel with both hands. Of course, the gullible fools believed this obviously malicious bulls**t, because it was more fun -- and less work -- than doing the hard heavy intellectual lifting that it would have taken to ACTUALLY TALK TO ME AND FIND OUT WHAT MY SIDE OF THE STORY WAS. I am eternally amazed at the willingess of people to believe vile lies told with obvious pleasure about people who are not present to defend themselves.
Dammit, none of us knows the truth here. But I can tell you that nurses are just as capable of spreading malicious lies and fabrications, and generating there own, as anyone else. I know!!!!!!
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
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typo above: I was PAYING the caretaker. My Nmom was charging her RENT.
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Oh yeah... I forgot to add that I went to the hospital SPECIFICALLY to anoint Nmom and pray over her because I knew she was dying, and that of all her devoted family I was the only one who was willing to swab her mouth, wash her face, etc. -- the rest of the human dung was afraid they'd catch what she had, and were more interested in going out to eat and drink booze than in actually spending any time with her. (I will drink, but not with these creeps, ever.)
So help me, I hope every one of the b*****ds who believed that crap about me is cared for at the end of their lives by someone they have slandered relentlessly and remorsefully without cause. As she was.
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I am drawn to the idea that we project our stuff onto the Terry Schiavo case--I've been noticing that in myself. Having nparents, I had a visceral fear when I first heard about this story, that my mother would love to have me in a coma. Then I'd finally be the good daughter she always wanted, she could have me all to herself, and I'd have no voice of my own.
Usually I find it very hard to know what my opinions are on controversial topics, because having my own opinions was squashed by my nparents. My nfather thinks he knows everything about everything, and I used to assume that I had to know everything too, compulsively research everything. But I don't know much about Terry Schiavo--and this doesn't mean I can't have an opinion, just that it can be complicated, partial, uninformed, and that's ok for now. I don't have to take a side like the media(of all sorts--mainstream, bloggers, Operation Rescue) wants me to do.
It was a jolt when I realized that I *assumed* her parents are n's, and that being the daughter of an n, she may have chosen an n husband, and the whole thing is a feast of the n's. This is my stuff--I'm projecting it all over the place. What I do know though, is that Terry Schiavo lost her voice when she went into a coma, and that is what makes me truly sad--we don't know what she wanted, and her husband and parents were eager to speak for her. The coma was the first thing to take her voice, but then everyone else was ready to use her like a ventroliquist's dummy, and this distresses me.
Greta
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Hello all,
My last post on the subject. (I hope)
This quote is what concerns me. Where does this end?
Read the words of Leo Alexander, a doctor who assisted the chief American counsel at the Nuremberg Tribunal, about the beginnings of Nazi society and he is describing our own:
Whatever proportion these crimes finally assumed, it became evident to all who investigated them that they had started from small beginnings. The beginnings at first were merely a subtle shift in emphasis in the basic attitudes of the physicians. It started with the acceptance of the attitude, basic in the euthanasia movement, that there is such a thing as life not worthy to be lived. This attitude in its early stages concerned itself merely with the severely and chronically sick. Gradually, the sphere of those to be included in this category was enlarged to encompass the socially unproductive, the ideologically unwanted, the racially unwanted, and finally all non-Germans. But it is important to realize that the infinitely small wedged-in lever from which the entire trend of mind received its impetus was the attitude towards the non-rehabilitative sick.
That's what scares me. Every devalued life devalues everyone else's a little more. The euthanasia movement in this country already goes far beyond PVS patients. Many of them consider Down's infants candidates for death. Some even consider healthy newborns non persons because they are cognitively limited, and therefore eligible for elimination if the parents change their mind. It is a small step from there to the burdensome, unproductive physicaly disabled who are nonetheless of sound mind. A smaller step than we think.
These ethicists are not cranks. They are the leaders of the philosophy and medical ethics departments in some of our most prestigious universities. They are the leaders in ethical thought, not the fringe.
They give me the creeps.
mudpup
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J.C. on a moped!
I have described one of the most catastrophically painful experiences of my entire life here, and in response I get--
not support
not empathy
but a lecture about projection.
I thought people here were capable of better than this.
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Hi, Stormchild--
I just got home from work and didn't have the chance to read everything until now. Your experience sounds harrowing and I'm sorry you didn't get the support you needed. I think this issue has us all swirling around with political and ethical and religious and personal and and and all this STUFF that it's tough to concentrate on any one post.
I don't think anyone was talking about you with the projection-- they were talking about me :) And probably all of us.
Your mother does sound like a nightmare.
Just be patient with us-- we'll get to you, I promise! It's just tough to blend all of this with the workday sometimes.
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The point is nobody knows....
hi all, i guess this might be off topic but i think its good to discuss ethical issues, it gives people a chance to define their values, and find out more about themselves, and i think debate is healthy if its respectful. it helps people exercise their thought processes and find out more about themselves. so this is just for purposes of healthy debate.
that said, this above was my only point as well. i just dont think anybody really knows. my opinions arent based on emotion at all, or the media; and im also not assuming her parents or husband are 'n' or not.
my 'angle' is that, nobody knows. nobody has proven that i have seen, with scientific fact of any sort, (and scientific fact would be my standard, not emotion), that people in 'persistent vegetative state' cannot feel or experience in a way we would consider meaninful. until someone goes into one and comes out and tells us what its like, i dont think its a determination we can scientifically make. to me its speculation, as to 'what they experience'.
its just too convenient to treat them like they dont experience, because you know, they cant stand up for themselves. i just dont feel comfortable with that type of determination. i dont think its scientifically sound.
to think about this from another angle, what if the husband had been receiving money of some type for keeping her *alive*, for instance social security payments or insurance settlement? if he received $2000 a month to keep terri *alive*, do you think his decisions would have been different? would the medical determinations have been 'different'? i am not attached to outcome or any particular angle, i just see value in exploring ethical questions. im not interested in labeling anyone as evil. i jsut like exploring peoples motivations. the reality is, hospital care *is* expensive. *someone* has to pay for it.
dont mean to talk aobut something people dont want to, i really dont think there is any 'n' angle here, to me its more an issue of denying voice.
take care all :} i like to think about stuff. dont mind me :}
anna
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stormchild,
I don't think the post about projection was in response to your story. It was in response to the Terry Shiavo part of the thread.
Your story is so harrowing and traumatic that it may take people (me included) a while to recover from feeling triggered or upset by it. So please hang in there. Some of us (incl. me) have also seen elderly parents/relations die in the hospital and it may bring back memories.
bunny
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Thanks Vunil.
I've noticed in the past that when I post advice it's appreciated, and when I post jokes they're enjoyed, but when I post about my own personal pain it's largely been ignored unless I've started a thread specifically for that purpose.
This seems very strange, since people have been very supportive re Sophie, for instance, and have encouraged me to post about my past; and the first thread I started here was one of the best experiences I've ever had.
I've not been trying to hijack anyone else's thread - rather, I'm very shy about disclosing these things, it takes a lot for me to do it, precisely because I've been ignored or trivialized whenever I have done so in face to face situations. So I've generally posted only when my experience seems relevant to someone else's. To find that experience being ignored in response, and the voicelessness essentially being repeated here, has been painful.
I would say that posting in response to others' experience may have been a mistake, except for the fact that when others do this, their pain IS acknowledged. So I'm stumped, frankly.
thanks again.
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Hi, Stormy (you need a nickname, I think)--
I think that you just need to give it a little more time. Your memory was overwhelming! I'd never even heard of such behavior. And here we are thinking about poor Terri and death and euthanasia and then Mudpup brings this nazis marching in and it just was all very swamping to the mind and soul. And it was in the middle of the work day.
I have found that my posts in response to others' posts get less response-- I've posted -lots- of really painful personal stuff in a thread I didn't start that doesn't get responses. I figure it got emotional responses and it helped me to write it, but something about the way everything was flowing didn't get people to write.
Please don't think that this listserv experience is somehow reflective of some larger truths about you or your past or whatever.
We are all dealing with really heavy stuff, doing the best we can.
Also, I reread everything and I was trying to map your experience onto the Schiavo experience and I got confused. I don't think that matters-- I care a lot more about you than about them, because the whole world is figuring out their situation and they never asked me for help.
But maybe our little brains got confused.
So maybe help us along toward understanding? Or start another thread (this one is dying anyway, I think)?
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I've noticed in the past that when I post advice it's appreciated, and when I post jokes they're enjoyed, but when I post about my own personal pain it's largely been ignored unless I've started a thread specifically for that purpose.
I think it's optimal to start a new thread otherwise your story can get lost in the shuffle, and people's minds aren't focused on it.
My assumption is that people are not ignoring you, but they didn't know what to say, or were triggered themselves, or are thinking about a response.
I hardly talk about myself at all because I could literally not tolerate it if I got the wrong response. So I only talk about myself parenthetically, when it is likely to be almost unnoticed. If I wanted people to pay attention I would definitely start my own thread.
bunny
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I think this is a case which touches most of us: we all have to meet death in some context, and many of us have been in the position of making difficult choices for loved ones.
My husband's aunt said 'let me die' then a few weeks later after a most undignified NHS stay I was asked 'do you want her to be artificially fed?'
It just happened to be my visiting day in the family that day.
It wasn't hard to make my choice, though of course many times in the wee small hours I have questionned myself and hoped I was doing what she wanted.
After her death I organised the funeral in a way to try and bring some closure and peace to the family...that's another issue people find difficult. Many family rifts begin with these emotionally charged events and not finding a voice for what needs to be said.
I say so long as what you say is thoughtful and compassionate- for there are many ways to convey words- and one way lies healing, another causes more pain- but speak. Speak kindly, speak softly, but let it be said.
I have consciously decided that whatever life brings I want to deal with it positively, but 'and thou do no harm' is all-important. I can't explain it, but I know it is.
Especially for people who have already been harmed by the legacy of another generation's emotional baggage. We need to find the way out of behaving badly to assuage pain: and though so many times I have felt powerless or voiceless or inconsequential...I know now that I am the trail-blazer for the generations to come, because I said 'stop!' and 'I won't live this way'....
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Stormchild, you are upset because you didn't get a response. I am upset and offended by what you wrote
nurses are just as capable of spreading malicious lies and fabrications, and generating there own, as anyone else.
because I am a nurse.
My foremost obligation is to the comfort and care of my patient, whoever they are. If there are family problems which may impinge upon ongoing care, the social worker is called upon.
Don't lump us all in the same basket.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience, some nurses should not be nurses.
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This post is not for the squeamish. It contains a great deal of clinical detail and some extremely emotionally distressing situations. And mild profanity.
In 1997, after my father passed away in June, I found out in September that the back pain I'd been having for a few months was the result of possibly malignant uterine tumors that were so large they had begun to compromise my kidney function. I was going to die unless I had radical surgery.
I went to a hospital that had a sterling reputation for this type of surgery. I did an advance blood donation for myself, etc. The surgery itself went well. However, 12 hours later, at about 10 PM, I had a severe abdominal spasm. I saw my abdomen rise and rise and rise and finally felt something tear inside. This was on a morphine PCA drip, and I still felt pain.
The nurses blew it off.
I knew I was hemorrhaging.
They continued to ignore me, claiming that my mind was fuddled by the morpine. I responded that I am a paradoxical reactor, and that morphine is, for me, a stimulant. They refused even to look at my chart, where I had clearly told the anaesthesiologist this fact and asked that it be noted for reference.
I realized that these people were going to let me bleed to death, rather than paying any attention to what I said, apparently for no other reason than to show me that I could not tell them what to do.
I asked that my doctor be contacted, and this was refused. I tried calling them myself, and got blown off by the answering service, which asserted that the hospital was the only one who could place such a call (so help me.) So I pulled myself up into the tightest 'tuck' position I could, reasoning that if I could minimize my internal abdominal volume, I would perhaps stop bleeding before I died. I kept myself awake all night long by using the morphine continuously.
In the meantime, my lactated Ringer's IV drip was going like a firehose. You'd think these fine professionals would have noticed that, wouldn't you. No, I had to page them repeatedly to get it replaced as I went through one bag after another after another. Did they ever think even for a second about what it might mean? Of course not, that would have meant acknowledging that the patient they were snubbing and ignoring actually understood correctly what was going on.
By 8 am, I had a hammer pulse and a headache, on morphine, remember. The shift changed and the day nurse came in. I told her what had been happening and asked her to contact the primary surgeon. Instead she asked what I do for a living, and I told her (I have been in the healthcare allied industry since 1983, have a PhD). Her response was - and I QUOTE: "Oh, so that's why you're such a neurotic." Then she flounced out of the room with her nose in the air, clearly very pleased at having "won" some sort of sick, mean contest.
THANK GOD, I had had a small piece of elective surgery done. I had a lipoma removed that had been bothering me for years, joking that I might as well lose something else that I wouldn't miss at all. A different surgeon had handled this. He showed up to look at me about 5 minutes after this other fine healthcare professional departed, and I told him what I'd told her, including a description of her reaction.
He did something amazing and radical, and actually took my pulse. And immediately started screaming for an EKG and the lab.
Yeah, I'd been hemorrhaging all right. My hematocrit went from 45 preop to 19 by the time they tested me that morning. I barely survived. Especially because I have asthma and a congenital heart valve abnormality also, which I was also trying to get the night staff to confirm by looking at my chart, with similar success. Hypoxia or hypovolemia = death sentence. At this point, most of my bloodstream was lactated Ringer's.
After that, it took them 12 hours to get around to giving me my own autologous packed red cells. The minister of the church I was attending made it in to give me last rites faster than they managed to get me my own blood back.
Then, after I had my morphine discontinued, they kept trying to push NSAIDS (with anticoagulant effects) onto me for pain, and getting ticked at me when I refused to take them because of the anticoagulant effect. (Duh, like I could afford any more bleeding, whatsoever.)
When I asked for prophy ABs because of the massive amount of intraabdominal bleeding and risk of sepsis, they laughed and refused, whereupon I became septic within 3 days. They'd tried to send me home one day before this happened, but I refused to go because I was too week to stand unassisted, and my Nmom and Nsib weren't about to do anything to help me at home.
So they ended up having to put me on IV antibiotics, and I ended up in that hellhole for ten days.
They fired the nurse who called me a neurotic. The rest of the nursing staff were as mean as humanly possible to me (God forbid they should admit I was right and some of their own had done something inexcusable), except for the ICU nurses who supervised my transfusions and were very supportive. Later, I found out that I should haver been moved to the ICU as soon as my low crit was confirmed.
Sorry you were offended, Kaz. Apparently, you've never known nurses like the ones I've encountered. Good for you. I know some wonderful NIC nurses personally, as well as some really fantastic RNs, LPNs, and psychiatric nurses. I wish I were as lucky in the ones I encountered professionally in this particular situation. It would only have taken one.
But I was nearly killed, by deliberate and malicious negligence on the part of people whose job it was to help me and protect me. One can't invalidate that merely by finding my awareness of it offensive.
I wonder just how many meeker, less clinically educated, more easily intimidated people have died because of stuff like this?
The hospital went bankrupt three months after I escaped. One could argue, I suppose, that morale was terrible while I was there. So what? Nothing I did justified the treatment I received.
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Holy Toledo Stormchild, they probably went bankrupt because of malpractice lawsuits. :roll:
Maybe thats why 100,000 people supposedly die unnecessarily in hospitals every year.
Like you Stormy I know several great nurses who are dedicated to a fault. Three are close friends. My SIL is studying to become one and is a very conscientious person. I'm sure most are, but like every other profession there are bad apples. And sometimes they grow in a clump, as your's did.
This attitude is something I have noticed as a very widespread human behavior. Many people cannot stand having someone give them a suggestion on how to do their job, even if the patient, client etc. is in a position to know better. Even if its offered in the most polite harmless manner possible, as only a possibility to consider. Even if the professional is an incompetent boob. Especially if they're an incompetent boob. Or an N. I have had this expereience with the IRS, doctors, mechanics, and lawyers.
Sorry to hear about your near death experience. Most people don't have to save themselves from one. Most people wouldn't have known what to do. Most people, I guess, would be dead. Glad you're not. :D
Mud
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Thanks mud.
you're right about the job defensiveness thing. i was extremely careful at first during this mess to be as calm, neutral voiced, and non-aggressive as i could, and it did no good at all. talk about a double bind. when i was calm, i was ignored, and when i stopped being calm, i was snubbed and ignored because i was 'ranting' or 'fuddled'. and when i gave my credentials, i was taunted and called neurotic.
i never even tried to bring a lawsuit myself. i was severely anemic for several months after i got out of hospital and too tired and weak to even contemplate it. just as well, since they went bankrupt anyway, eh.
are you aware that hospitals are actively resisting pressure from Federal agencies and some other organizations to voluntarily report surgical and medication errors? largely from a fear of liability, but the fact still makes my regenerated blood run cold.
and the most loving person i know in the entire world... human person that is... is a former psychiatric nurse turned clinical psychologist. i began seeing her after i could drive again, specifically to recover from this episode. she was a tremendous help. she has retired, and tho my current t is a gem, i do miss her terribly.
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My experience with hospitals and nursing homes (not as a patient but as a relative) is that unless the patient has some outside advocates like family members, they will probably die. My greatest fear is to be in that situation, which is likely, as I have no children. I just hope I die first, hit by a truck or something.
bunny
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are you aware that hospitals are actively resisting pressure from Federal agencies and some other organizations to voluntarily report surgical and medication errors?
Not to begin a bash the hospital thread, but yeah I have read that. It was in an article about unnecessary infections in hospitals. It suggested revolutionary procedures, like compulsary washing of hands between patients. And there is a vast difference in hospitals. Some are great some aren't. I get to know the ingredients in my Pop Tarts, how come I can't know which hospital kills its patients and which one doesn't? :?
mud
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Hospital anti-bashing coming right up!
After my debacle, three different people I know went to a DIFFERENT hospital in our area for surgery or critical inpatient care... two went for surgery in the same general area as mine, but different kinds of stuff... and those two made their choice partly based on knowing what happened to me. [the place i was at did not close, it simply changed hands and names, like valujet.]
these people all received an extremely high standard of care, were attended to attentively, one had complications -- which were nipped in the bud! my hat's off to the staff at this place, they were absolutely A-#1-outstanding.
but folks really ought to be able to find this stuff out without having to know people who've 'been there'. just imagine if all hospitals were as good as this one -- and it's entirely possible! that's the saddest part. it's entirely possible.
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I did not intend to give a lecture on projections, and I was not responding to Stormchild's message--I'm sorry if it did come out as a lecture. I was trying to describe my own experience. Stormchild, your description of what you suffered under your mother blew me away, and it was too hard for me to respond specifically to your observations, because of my own issues and struggles, and feeling like nothing I could say would be of any use, and it seemed to deserve its own thread, not one under the Terry Schiavo topic. I didn't post for almost a year to this board because I feel so vulnerable about contributing to discussions. And right now it's hard not to feel like I obviously am not good at sharing my experience. I have found people on this board wonderfully empathetic.
Greta
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Dammit, none of us knows the truth here. But I can tell you that nurses are just as capable of spreading malicious lies and fabrications, and generating there own, as anyone else. I know!!!!!!
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
((((Storm)))))
You are right on this one. I know it for a fact because my Nmum used to be a nurse.
This is rather off topic, but illustrative of the point. My mum had problems several years ago, when I was a teenager, with the change. She was told by her GP to take a pregnancy test, and she came to me, in considerable distress. She told me what had happened, and said that she didn't want to go to the hospital for a pregnancy test, because the nurses would laugh at her in the same way as she and her mates used to laugh at the old ladies coming for prenancy tests when she was a nurse. OK for her to do it to others ...
The end of the story is that I told her about do it yourself kits from the chemist, which she had never heard of, and she was too embarrassed to buy one, so I went into the local chemist, and bought one, while she waited outside. I didn't care what anyone thought, but mum did. And she preferred them to think it was for me than for her.
You couldn't make this stuff up, could you!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
To get back on track somewhat, Ns like nursing. It gives them a lot of power, and a lot of superiority. They can appear compassionate, but underneath they despise their patients, and the relatives, as inferior beings. :?
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Thanks Greta, I clearly really misunderstood your post and for that I apologize with all my heart. Thanks for coming back and clearing it up.
I do believe you. Please keep posting. What you said has a lot of validity, if I look at it with proper detachment. It was my error to personalize it. Forgive me, please?
October, I understand what you mean, and I am so sorry that you have had these experiences with your mother and then, on top of that, she's in one of the caring professions, while being such an N. How horribly confusing that must have been for you. And painful.
bunny, when i was in school i never understood why my grandparents were so afraid of hospitals and nursing homes. i wonder if what i went through may explain some of it, but i'll never know for sure. you really do need an advocate - it's the ultimate place of voicelessness. or can be.
(((Greta)))
(((October)))
(((bunny)))
It has been a very healing experience for me, posting here today and yesterday, being answered and answering back. in spite of all the intense feelings I had and expressed. Now I feel very humbled, but somehow also clean, as though there was soil on my heart from that experience, and it's gone now.
I'm sorry I totally reoriented the thread. Anything else I feel a need to say I'll start a new thread for (and I will try to be good, and not do this to someone else's poor innocent thread again - smile).
Thanks again for your patience and your honesty and your help. This was a very significant day in my life. That sounds like fancy talk, but it isn't. I think I received a sacrament here today, from you.
Thanks.
storm
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Stormchild,
Like I said, I'm sorry you had a bad experience and thankyou for your sorry.
Your experience was horrific; the level of care you had was appalling, no wonder the hospital folded.
I don't live in the US. Where I am, (Australia) the RNs are regulated to a high level of accountability. No longer can we shift the blame to anyone else (under doctors' orders was the old excuse), we are the patients' advocates. Things are a little different here it seems. All mistakes/errors must be documented under the regulations and infection controls are stringent eg. handwashing between patients. It's easy to trace a source of infection and link it to who was on duty for instance. Here, whoever didn't act upon your obvious signs Stormchild would have been reprimanded. (We are less litigious here remember).
Another thing I need to get off my chest, and this is not directed at anybody in particular. All nurses are not Ns.
I don't want to further waylay this thread, it's just that it's morning here and I needed to say these things.
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Here, whoever didn't act upon your obvious signs Stormchild would have been reprimanded.
I meant, right at the beginning, if your first signs of trouble were not acted upon.
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people not hearing what we have to say on very important matters...being brushed off or subject to another's ego-calls...not having pain or emotions acknowledged or dealt with appropriately.
You see why I started this thread?
The narcissists are there: in congress, in top professional jobs, in big business...but just like the 'highly functioning alcoholic' ( or other addict ) is subject to other scrutiny, higher rules, less judgement...Judge or Doctor or Sir Pompousass don't get their motives or mental health questionned.
But if you've ever been on the receiving end of one of these genius-lunatics...you know why I'm venting right now.
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Stormchild--thank you for your message. I appreciate your thoughts. It's a real struggle for me to post anything, so encouragment is really helpful. The process of learning to answer and answer back has always been a mystery to me! I'm glad you are finding some healing in this process too.
Greta