Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: BG on April 05, 2005, 05:27:08 PM
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Hi all -
I'm sort of stuck in a mindset that I'm curious peoples thoughts about:
It seems like the conventional/theraputic wisdom for dealing with N is to take steps to protect oneself from any ongoing abuse, but ultimately accept that the N and enmeshed-family members may never change and thus stop expecting any rational dialogue, or even anything resembling a normal relationship with these folks, ever. And a common end-game seems to be cutting off relations rather than prolong irrational and manipulative ties with family membres, even if that's not the initial desire.
While my wife and I started with a genuine desire to salvage/preserve some type of relationship with my N-mother and 2 enmeshed brothers, we've been slowly/quietly burned enough over the past several months (we suspect by covert aggression/innuendo/petty-slander common to N-systems) to be prepared to emotionally walk-away from my family.
But to accomplish this, I feel like I'm facing a trade-off that saps my vitality:
Last August I engaged in a brief confrontational dialogue with these family members about a couple of separate-but-related issues, it felt like was much more alive, in terms of having a voice -- people may not like what I'm saying, but I'm saying it, its my opinion, and I take ownership over it, and whatever consequences that result. That vitality spilled over to my current relationships (wife/2 young kids, friends, colleagues) and overall was a positive sensation.
Now these family members have circled the wagons and isolated me/family, as they once did to my deceased father and mentally ill brother (in otherwords, I'm not the first): long periods of non-acknowledgement, and then mixed-message communication, passive-aggressive, crazy-making subtext, etc.
I'm near to the point of accepting that these folks may simply lack the capacity for engaging in conventional supportive/loving family relationships. (and yes, it is painful to fully accept the implications this is how I was raised, but that's a different thread). But to reach this more transcendent state of acceptance, I feel like I have to strategically disengage from any sort of dialogue that I would expect to have with 'normal' people I care about. This seems to require that I rein in my natural desire to respond and release my 'voice' to them, as a practical, tactical matter. And that suppression seems to sap my vitality...my wife has noted that I (we) don't have much fun anymore, and I am not nearly as alive as I once was last summer.
That said, I realize there are safer, more positive places within my non-extended family sphere, to release/explore my voice, etc., and that its a process that won't occur by itself or overnight. And also -- my wife knows that this process involves a unique type of grieiving about loss of illusion of family, etc, so I may be sad, but not depressed, for good reason at times.
But my question to the group: while disengaging from a N-family, what can be done to off-set the vitality that may be lost while one suppresses the 'voice', that would otherwise be spent shouting to an abyss (at best) or perpetuating a downward cycle of dysfunction (at worst).
Does this make sense? I can provide some specifics about a recent communication from one of these enmeshed brothers that seems to trigger my reptilian brain to engage, which is clashing with my spiritual/rational brain to transcend...nothing real dramatic or abusive, just creepy subtext, but oh-so-begging for a response...
BG
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But my question to the group: while disengaging from a N-family, what can be done to off-set the vitality that may be lost while one suppresses the 'voice', that would otherwise be spent shouting to an abyss (at best) or perpetuating a downward cycle of dysfunction (at worst).
Does this make sense? I can provide some specifics about a recent communication from one of these enmeshed brothers that seems to trigger my reptilian brain to engage, which is clashing with my spiritual/rational brain to transcend...nothing real dramatic or abusive, just creepy subtext, but oh-so-begging for a response...
BG
You are way ahead of me in disengaging yourself, so I hardly think I can help, really, but I get the feeling from reading your post that you want to find your voice and say what you have to say. I think that this is vital to recovery, for you, for me, for any of us.
What is not essential is for you to engage with the Ns more than the absolute minimum, and as you rightly say, any kind of engagement leads to enmeshment.
This may be simplistic, but can you not write your response, as strongly as you want, and then not deliver it to them? Post it without an address, or fasten it to a balloon and let it go, or throw it in the sea, or burn it to ashes. Anything that is symbolic and meaningful to you? After all, this is for your benefit, not theirs. There is no point trying to communicate in a meaningful way, so change the rules. (You could even post your letters here, if you think that might help.)
Get the words out, and let the demons out with them, and don't let them fester. But don't give the Ns the satisfaction.
Then, if they ever do get hold of you, and say, why did you not respond, you can say in all innocence, 'I did respond. Did you not get the letter?'
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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OMG , BG:
But my question to the group: while disengaging from a N-family, what can be done to off-set the vitality that may be lost while one suppresses the 'voice', that would otherwise be spent shouting to an abyss (at best) or perpetuating a downward cycle of dysfunction (at worst).
I want to hear from people who know how to solve this one!!!!
I have fought lethargy and depression as I've disengaged from my Nmom and Nbro. Anger IS energy, I know that well now. I am not THERE yet but I have found equilibrium in community activism and teaching a class at my church. With the community activism I actually have an experience of WINNING once in awhile, so it isn't totally like my family (smile)...and with the class, I have a new satisfaction of using my voice to teach. But I feel like a techtonic plate has shifted inside me, that I do not have even the same sense of self as when I was defending my boundaries with my family. Strange, isn't it?
It's a grief of a dream and an illusion, not missing a loved one but trying to cease the countless daily rituals of hoping to one day be loved, be heard, be acknowledged... just so hard to say for sure, it ain't ever gonna happen..
Delphine
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But my question to the group: while disengaging from a N-family, what can be done to off-set the vitality that may be lost while one suppresses the 'voice', that would otherwise be spent shouting to an abyss (at best) or perpetuating a downward cycle of dysfunction (at worst).
I usually vent my 'voice' to a therapist. Talking to the Ns involved is just an exercise in frustration and futility. I've trained myself to shut up most of the time and kind of dissociate. My mind just goes 'la dee da dee da' and I go somewhere mentally. Alternatively, I look at the person clinically and think: "Wow. She's really doing some splitting," which detaches me. In other words, I compartmentalize. I may tell myself, "She will NOT ruin my day. I allow no one to wreck my day." Afterward I vent to my husband and later my T. I'd be interested to see the communique from your brother.
bunny
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... while disengaging from a N-family, what can be done to off-set the vitality that may be lost while one suppresses the 'voice', that would otherwise be spent shouting to an abyss (at best) or perpetuating a downward cycle of dysfunction (at worst).
Dear BG,
I wonder if the key is not suppressing the "voice," but finding a different outlet for it? I agree that sharing it with the Nrelatives is waste of your time and energy, not to mention a total exercise in frustration.
I spent a few months seeing a therapist when I was much younger, and just the bottom line of knowing that I would have an hour each week where I could have my voice be heard by someone who had no personal ties to me, nor any personal stake in seeing me continue to be "enmeshed" in this situation, helped a lot. Unfortunately, I stopped therapy after a few months because at the time I was still living under my parents' roof, and when a big blow-up ensued(where I finally allowed my voice to be heard, warts and all), my parents decided that if I didn't stop therapy, THEY were going to go to the therapist and tell her about the "REAL" me(they were projecting stuff onto me, but I was too young, intimidated and under their control to realize it). Anyhow(sorry to digress), IMHO, a good therapist can make a tremendous difference in helping you sustain your "vitality."
Do you have any other non-Nrelatives who "know the score?" I have one sibling who sees the rest of our Nfamily for what it is, and being able to pick-up the phone or go out to dinner and have a little time to vent to one another has really helped a great deal. Sometimes all it takes to help me keep my head up is just to discuss issues with my husband and have him hug me and say to me, "dear, it's not you. Those people are really f***ed in the head."
When it comes to dealing with the feelings that occur as a result of consciously unplugging from your Nrelatives, time, a good therapist and the love of (non-N)others can really go a long way in starting the healing journey. The hard part(for me, anyway) is what to do when, after having given them the boot, they decide to resurface where they're not invited and cause a scene(imagine screaming and crying in the middle of a church parking lot)...but I guess that's where law enforcement steps in!!!
Would you be willing to share your Ebrother's communique with the rest of the posters? Maybe someone on this thread could offer some extra insight into(or a deconstruction of) your brother's tome.
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Sometimes all it takes to help me keep my head up is just to discuss issues with my husband and have him hug me and say to me, "dear, it's not you. Those people are really f***ed in the head."
PQC, you've just given me a new mantra. :D :D :D
BG, there's this almost overwhelming compulsion to 'make them hear us'... way deep down we know we aren't wrong about things and we really can't understand why our Ns insist on making us wrong. I still struggle with this, but at least these days I know what it is, and if I get a running start and a good jump on it from behind, I can keep it still for maybe five minutes. If I have a tailwind. :?
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Hi BG,
I have experienced something similar with my family although my N is my brother. My mother and at least one sister are 'enmeshed' as you so aptly put it. His ploy has always been to ostracise whoever refuses to be controlled by him. Therefore I have had essentially no contact with any of them for a couple of years, as I have been so thoroughly demonized that they probably think I have to cut two holes in my hat to get it on. :arrow: :evil:
I have experienced the same emotions as you as well. The conclusion I came to was that what you term vitality is in fact a negative energy. It is the energy of smashing something breakable when you hit your thumb with a hammer. It makes you feel better momentarily, but it is really kind of pointless. It would be time better spent getting an ice pack, but you don't get immediate satisfaction.
When you respond they are in control. Period. Plus you are giving them something to live for. They will spend hours excitedly cutting your response to ribbons(they think). You are vitalising them as well as yourself. When you are not engaged with them the underying depression of not having a real family takes hold. We may even be seeking the 'vitality' of responding in kind to block the depression and listlessness. That is a kind of denial is it not?
So,
But my question to the group: while disengaging from a N-family, what can be done to off-set the vitality that may be lost while one suppresses the 'voice', that would otherwise be spent shouting to an abyss (at best) or perpetuating a downward cycle of dysfunction (at worst).
Probably nothing. You can go to therapy which will probably help some(I've been told). You can smash something breakable. You can take up basket weaving even. Mostly its just going to take time to heal the wound of finally admitting your family came out of a Cracker Jack box. :shock: :(
I am trying to cut down on giving advice so here is a suggestion instead. Maybe you could compile as much free time as possible and take as many vacations with your family as you can afford and cut off the nincompoops who are ruining your life and see how you do cold turkey. Right now they're in your head. Maybe if you put a 'no vacancy' sign on your forehead for awhile you might find a real vitality that comes from being disentangled from the screwballs and concentrate on the people who love you. Its slowly working for me.
mudpuppy
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BG, I think everyone here has good advice. I'm not sure I have much to offer, but here goes. For me detaching from my wife, actually understanding her has really helped me to accept what is. I got this understanding from talking with her (when she let out clues) and doing a lot of reading on relationship problems, Co-dependency, NPD, BPD, Verbal Abuse, etc. I'm sure that I don't know most of her even now, but I know enough to be satisfied that she is the way she is because of the way she was raised and she isn't going to be anything else anytime soon. You may not have the opportunity or inclination to take this approach. Knowing what I know now, *I* wouldn't take this approach again. :)
Another very helpful thing was to list all of my wishes and desires for the other person and our relationship. Then, I went back and wrote next to each one the current reality, right now, right here, today. That's pretty eye-opening, let me tell you. Also, at one point I wrote down every expectation, wish, desire, hope, and yearning I ever had for this relationship, grieved each one, and set the list on fire, giving it all up. I held onto these wishes for a very long time, and was never free of the attachment until I let it all go.
Otherwise, I started finding more and more places to have my voice and be heard, here, church, friends, etc. I started taking more risks and making new friends. I started doing new things that I had always wanted, but let my hanging-on suck all my energy away. No miracle cure, for sure, but life gets better for me every day.
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Hi Everyone,
And thank you for the detailed and thoughtful replies to my question/issue, you are all a profoundly valuable group of people and I'm so grateful to have found this place of collective wisdom.
There are several threads that I'll want to spend some time to work-on/write in the coming days, in terms of the suggestions as well as some specifics about the type of communication that got under my skin this time around, but a couple of things that mudpuppy wrote resonate on the specific 'vitality' issue for me and want to comment: [BTW: I'm re-reading my full draft post now, its late, so apologies if it rambles off into space]:
The conclusion I came to was that what you term vitality is in fact a negative energy.)
When you are not engaged with them the underying depression of not having a real family takes hold. We may even be seeking the 'vitality' of responding in kind to block the depression and listlessness. That is a kind of denial is it not?
I find there is a spiritual component to this quest to transcend my base instinct to remain engaged (and enraged) within the N-family. And I am open to the idea that the vitality that I felt during/after more direct confrontation may have been a sort of counterfeit, that must be avoided despite its allure, if I'm to get to the desired level of mental health.
Whether its termed 'negative energy' or 'emotional dysfunction', or as M.Scott Peck in 'People of Lie' calls it 'evil', I feel there is a darkness to the NPD phenomenon that potentially draws our individual humanity downward, if we let it, just by proximity to one or two afflicted individuals, and the greater web they spin. And that darkness might manifest or be characterized as 'denial' (of our painful past or present), abuse (of all sorts, including self-abuse), or merely failure to fulfill our personal potential. However its described, I think its safe to regard NPD as bringing out the worst in people, and that all world religions aim to help bring out the best in people.
I'm not conventionally religious (raised Catholic, but now Unitarian-Universalist, which dropped off the left-side of the Protestant spectrum a few years back I think), but I toggle back-and-forth looking at my own struggle to deal with N-family as both a personal mental-health issue and a more fundamental spiritual challenge faced by people in different ways/different forms throughout history.
From the MH perspective there are some specific strategies and tactics to employ with reasonable expectation that most will work in some way, to distance oneself from the abuse, heal the old wounds, and build healthier relationships and habits, etc And that may well mean eventual disengagement from birth family members, who may have been abusive in the past and/or continue to be in the present.
But the spiritual question is: can that disengagement (or whatever degree of continued contact) come from a place of genuine love? Can our behavior when faced with the numerous barbs of an N-system, rise above the fray? So instead of adding more pain to the flawed people that comprise a N-system, or allowing oneself to remain beat-up/depressed, can we love all parties (self included) enough despite the brutal ugliness of it all to transcend our base instincts to either fight or emotionally take flight (detaching, but filled with resentment)? And from that, can a more genuine, deeper degree of vitality be reached? Another way to spin it: once we face the pain spawned by NPD, we can initially attempt to minimize it through assorted coping mechanisms -- therapy included, which BTW I'm a current/past user. But coping mechanisms, almost by design only permit us to survive life, not necessarily thrive in it. I feel there is a spiritual dimension to reaching that 'vitality'...and I also feel that is the right path for me to attempt to walk, but the path is long and my legs are short...
Its late, again thank you all for your posts and ideas!
BG
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A long time ago, as I began to heal, I had many arguments with my father. I remember pointing at him and literally jumping up and down screaming to get him to listen. Eventually I gave up. I realize now it was not about him hearing my words, it was about ME hearing my words. I was literally re-creating myself from scratch, and my words were the platform. ABRACADABRA-I create as I speak.
Just my thoughts.
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BG: great thoughts, all of them. You have put beautiful words to something I have been tossing around in my healing from N abuse (abuse not over by a long shot, however, as it still affects my kids) and in my own spiritual growth. Thank you.
Phillip: as usual, wonderfully put, and a fascinating discovery for you...and for us...
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So much wisdom in this thread!!
I need to reread and reread!! :roll:
It is a big like banging one's head against a brick wall, isn't it?
I mean....after awhile....one notices what a waste of time it is to try to be heard. Impossible for blocked up, closed, deaf ears to hear.
That, in itself, is draining and uses up precious energy, all that trying.
And I agree that there is a certain amount of negative energy created while head-banging. Maybe it's the reverb or just bits of cement flying off and sticking to the skull??
Or maybe......it's the force of trying to knock something immovable down that bounces back and causes something to inside crush or fall or weaken??
GFN
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GFN,
Impossible for blocked up, closed, deaf ears to hear.
That brought a memory to mind. P G Wodehouse was always using a gag about a snake charmer who could never charm this one particular snake "though he charmed ever so wisely". Turns out it was deaf. Its known as the story of the deaf adder. Someone more literary than me probably knows where its from.
The point is, isn't that exactly what its like? We're sitting there with our flute, charming away, thinking we're getting through to the 'reptilian brain' as BG put it, and all the while they don't hear a thing we play. They're just working up a good dose of venom and waiting for us to leave our neck exposed.
Creepy, accurate image. :evil: Yuck. :x
mudpup
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Whether its termed 'negative energy' or 'emotional dysfunction', or as M.Scott Peck in 'People of Lie' calls it 'evil', I feel there is a darkness to the NPD phenomenon that potentially draws our individual humanity downward, if we let it, just by proximity to one or two afflicted individuals, and the greater web they spin. And that darkness might manifest or be characterized as 'denial' (of our painful past or present), abuse (of all sorts, including self-abuse), or merely failure to fulfill our personal potential. However its described, I think its safe to regard NPD as bringing out the worst in people, and that all world religions aim to help bring out the best in people.
BG, I know from my own experience that I cannot withstand this N behavior. I believe that I am a very strong person (too strong?), but no matter what I do, each N attack takes a tiny bit of my spirit. Perhaps if I had other areas in my life where I could recharge faster than I get drained I could tolerate it longer, but why would I want to? In the past I chose to stay in this situation based on my wishes and fantasies, rather than the reality of the situation. These days I try to practice love by making sure that *I* have a safe and healthy environment to live in. Then, when I have the energy and the inclination, I can engage with the N or not as I choose.
But the spiritual question is: can that disengagement (or whatever degree of continued contact) come from a place of genuine love? Can our behavior when faced with the numerous barbs of an N-system, rise above the fray? So instead of adding more pain to the flawed people that comprise a N-system, or allowing oneself to remain beat-up/depressed, can we love all parties (self included) enough despite the brutal ugliness of it all to transcend our base instincts to either fight or emotionally take flight (detaching, but filled with resentment)? And from that, can a more genuine, deeper degree of vitality be reached? Another way to spin it: once we face the pain spawned by NPD, we can initially attempt to minimize it through assorted coping mechanisms -- therapy included, which BTW I'm a current/past user. But coping mechanisms, almost by design only permit us to survive life, not necessarily thrive in it. I feel there is a spiritual dimension to reaching that 'vitality'...and I also feel that is the right path for me to attempt to walk, but the path is long and my legs are short...
I am able to love my wife in a moral sense now, after being stuck in anger and rage for many, many years. What helped me the most with this was going through the forgiveness process with "Forgiveness is a Choice" by Robert Enright. Especially about seeing my own contributions to the situation and and ackowledging reality and giving up my wishes and fantasies about the situation. Sorry if I sound like a broken record with this. :) That enabled me to let go of the anger and the hurt and begin to see my wife as a fellow damaged human being. At this point, I can love her as a human being and choose my behavior based on what is safe with her. If her behavior changes and it is safe for me to move closer then I can choose that at the appropriate time. My emotional distance is simply about the safety involved, not fear or anger any longer.
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BG you wrote,
But the spiritual question is: can that disengagement (or whatever degree of continued contact) come from a place of genuine love? Can our behavior when faced with the numerous barbs of an N-system, rise above the fray? So instead of adding more pain to the flawed people that comprise a N-system, or allowing oneself to remain beat-up/depressed, can we love all parties (self included) enough despite the brutal ugliness of it all to transcend our base instincts to either fight or emotionally take flight (detaching, but filled with resentment)?
I'm not sure your last question is a sound one. If the emotional health and happiness of you, your wife and your children depends on detaching from harmful people, whether tied by blood or not, how is that a base instinct? Your blood relatives are of concern to you, however they are also autonomous adults who have to accept the consequences of their actions. Your primary responsibility is to the woman you chose to spend your life with and the children you both brought into the world.
I used this definition of love in some other thread previously. It is from CS Lewis. Love is hoping and praying for the best for someone. Your intentions toward them are good not evil. Therefore if you need to, you can love someone from afar. You can detach from their nutty world and still love them. Additionally, I believe the best chance at eliminating the resentment is to detach from them. You will never get rid of the resentment when they are constantly given opportunities to give you more to resent because you are still 'enmeshed' yourself.
Why are you concerned about adding more pain to the flawed people in an N system? The way pain is added to an N is to deny them N supply. Isn't this is like saying because we don't hand out Jack Daniels to all our alcoholic friends, we are adding to their pain of withdrawal?
Is it possible your continued involvement is causing more pain? Maybe if you completely disengage, your enmeshed siblings would see just how enmeshed they are. Maybe they would try to follow you and gain some freedom for themselves. That equals less pain not more.
You are a Unitarian, I am a 'conventional', as you put it, Christian. Jesus said no one can serve two masters. Ns demand our allegience at the expense of all others. Can you serve your wife and kids AND your N system?. I couldn't. And I wasted nearly fifteen years and hundreds of thousands of dollars trying. And worst of all, both my family and the N were worse off then if I had just taken care of my family and let my brother enjoy the fruits of his behavior on his own.
Just my opinion but I think you are intellectualizing this too much. It seems like you are over analyzing what you may already know in your heart. Forget your head for a minute. What do your instincts and heart tell you?
mudpuppy
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Hi all:
BG, I'm wondering if you're trying to succeed at the biggest challenge God gives us.......which is to love your enemies??
You are to be commended for trying so hard. It is a big challenge, to say the least. I do believe it is possible to meet this challenge but, unless one is as perfect as our Devine Maker, we are unlikely to excel at it, while we are still in the grips of our enemies paws/claws/fangs/etc, especially.
Maybe we can call out for God to forgive them for they don't know what they're doing, but to really feel true love, in our hearts, for those who are currently hurting us ...takes miraculous goodness and means not loving ourselves at all, at that point. I doubt that was the intention of the challenge (love your enemies but nevermind yourself.....let yourself be abused and go to pot and fall appart and turn to mush....take the pain....but love those enemies and keep them supplied well. :shock: ).
The creator I believe in wouldn't wish that on us poor imperfect souls.
Perhaps, as was said in another thread awhile back (was it you Mudpup?), loving our enemies is...sometimes...as simple as ...not hating them?
Maybe....loving our enemies is praying for their souls and their mental/emotional health?
Maybe it isn't really a deep feeling of caring, understanding, giving, unconditional and absolute love.....or something like that love that is expected to flow from our hearts to our enemies, at least at the time we are still being abused by them?
Maybe loving them from a distance is the kindest thing we can do for them and for ourselves....because it takes away their opportunity to harm us further, and it gives us a chance to recover from our pain, and to begin to forgive them for causing it??
GFN
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I find there is a spiritual component to this quest to transcend my base instinct to remain engaged (and enraged) within the N-family. And I am open to the idea that the vitality that I felt during/after more direct confrontation may have been a sort of counterfeit, that must be avoided despite its allure, if I'm to get to the desired level of mental health.
Is the sense of vitality exciting because 'the game is afoot'? Or is it a feeling of confidence and empowerment? And what's your desired level of mental health?
But the spiritual question is: can that disengagement (or whatever degree of continued contact) come from a place of genuine love?
Love is kind of subjective. Do you mean love of their spirit? Love of their personality traits? I ask myself, "Is this in everyone's highest interests?" That's how I decide what to do.
bunny
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mudpuppy and GFN -
Thanks for your posts -- very good stuff in terms of helping me grapple with this topic.
Just my opinion but I think you are intellectualizing this too much. It seems like you are over analyzing what you may already know in your heart. Forget your head for a minute. What do your instincts and heart tell you?
You are correct: I am intellectualizing...it is one of my hold-out coping mechanisms...I'm getting close, but still not there, in peeling away the remaining onion-skins of denial strategies that I've used my entire life to avoid the pain of this...I've used and given up drugs, drinking, depression (and its meds), even caffiene. I'm down to my intellectualizing and occasional bouts of chocolate...and given that both of these aren't that effective in holding back the pain, I've been pretty sad about this entire situation (not depressed: I get that way when I supress the sadness, anger, etc...) and I'm wondering how long that sadness will stay with me, before it gets diluted with moments of sustained happiness, whimsy.
Back to the 'vitality' theme -- I'm seeing some vivid colors (sadness, anger), much more so than when I was depressed, but I'm wondering when/where I'll start seeing the rest of the spectrum again. My hope is that I will have eventually have a more balanced emotional experience -- bouts of sadness, happiness, anger, affection, etc, etc...and my effort to articulate some path of 'transcendence' (or other definition) is my desire to move as quickly as I can to that point...while knowing all the time I suppose that you can't hurry these things...I guess I just don't want to get stuck on some false summit, and wake up in another 15 years realizing that I never quite got to the bottom of things...and in the meantime having a less-than-alive life.
To your question: my heart/instinct tell me...through some tears at this moment, btw...that I may never even see my blood relatives again...and that may be the best thing in the world for me and my own family. There is a part of me that wants it to be recorded somewhere/somehow in the ages that I really did try for a different outcome. There is a unique type of unfairness/pain that seems common to these situations -- that efforts to do the right thing are met with effective slander. I've given up wanting justice, I guess I would just like credit for having tried my best.
I spent about 12 years in serious depression starting from when my *heart* likely learned about the true nature of my birth family's problem,(when I reenaged with a bother who was ostracized from the family in part due to his schizophrenia) and ending last August when my *mind* finally 'saw' what my heart had seen years earlier. And the past several months I've been getting these two to compare notes and figure out where to go now.
Love is hoping and praying for the best for someone. Your intentions toward them are good not evil. Therefore if you need to, you can love someone from afar. You can detach from their nutty world and
still love them.
This perspective from CS Lewis is very valuable -- do you have the book/essay where its from and/or can you recommend a good starting point for reading Lewis? I remember seeing a Lewis quote I think it was in Peck's book People of Lie about how our job is to weed the fields we know (of evil), and not worry about the weather that might happen for future generations...that had a certain resonance.
[GFN - your post came in as I was writing this next paragraph...very timely...I was writing the following on 'loving enemies']
And while I may still be intellectualizing all this, curious your collective thoughts: I believe in the transformational power of the Christian teaching to love and forgive one's enemies...what strikes me in these N-situations is how to regard the assorted players? For example, the source of much of the dysfunction is my N-mother, and her actions effectively turn 2 of my brothers into active players in 'her side', against me -- her and their actions in the grand scheme are petty and in the long-term will cease to harm me emotionally, and likely harm my own family very little, especially if I disengage completely. But the actions have all the appearances of intentional malice...very much like an 'enemy'. Do I regard my mother as an 'enemy'...or do I orient my thinking to regard her as a deeply flawed person who can't help do what she is doing? By considering her as an enemy, for the purposes of arriving at some place of spiritual forgiveness, do I end up regarding myself along some peer level with her? Conversely...if I just take a rational view that her actions stem from a clinical disorder and thus shouldn't be taken personally...do I miss an opportunity for spiritual growth?
BG, I'm wondering if you're trying to succeed at the biggest challenge God gives us.......which is to love your enemies??
I like and think I can follow the suggestions of both mudpup and GFN, in terms of safe ways to love those who may harm us...thank you for this input, as it feels like it is finding the right place in my spirit, at the right time.
I was reading some writings of the late Rabbi Abraham Heschel last night -- in a rough paraphrase, he speaks of the profound importance, even blessing of struggle for any individual. I lack the power much less desire to sacrifice myself (and wife/kids) in an attempt to perfectly love people whose actions will ultimately consume me...but the struggle to come to my own imperfect answer for -how- to love them as best -I- can (which may be from afar, by praying for their improved mental health, etc) is the spiritual question that I regard as a blessing along the lines of what Heschel writes. It will be hard but I think manageable, and ultimately enriching, or vitalizing.
BG
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my heart/instinct tell me...through some tears at this moment, btw...that I may never even see my blood relatives again...and that may be the best thing in the world for me and my own family. There is a part of me that wants it to be recorded somewhere/somehow in the ages that I really did try for a different outcome.
I can deeply relate to this and I can only tell you that these are losses that must be grieved. There is no way past grieving except to grieve.
As to getting credit for trying or wanting things to be different.....who do you want that credit to come from??
Do I regard my mother as an 'enemy'...or do I orient my thinking to regard her as a deeply flawed person who can't help do what she is doing? By considering her as an enemy, for the purposes of arriving at some place of spiritual forgiveness, do I end up regarding myself along some peer level with her? Conversely...if I just take a rational view that her actions stem from a clinical disorder and thus shouldn't be taken personally...do I miss an opportunity for spiritual growth?
This is way too intelligent for me. People who hurt you......if you pray for them.....if you want them to be healthy....if you wish the best for them.....is this not loving them? Does your spirit grow from loving?
Think of them in whatever terms are most easily digested but not with hate or malice.....and you will get the credit you seek.
(((((((((BG)))))))
Dry your tears.
GFN
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Dry your tears.
Pretty stupid of me to tell you to go ahead and grieve, one minute, and to dry your tears the next eh?
What I mean is......don't blame you.....
You have tried your best and do wish there was a better way and would have loved to see a better outcome, etc, etc...
Your tears need to shed and be shed and then ....they will be dried and done with.
If that makes any more sence than my last contradiction.
GFN
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I love the thoughts on this thread...all very meaty and heart felt. Thank you all.
When I first decided to heal....I picked up the book "The Art of Happiness" by the Dali Lama (and an American doctor as well).
It was the begining of my "awakening" as it were, and I knew what I read made sense, but I didn't know how I would ever "get it", as in: feel that way myself.
He says "love your enemies", something I had also heard growing up in a rather spiritual family....and even in my Catachism as a child.
It had always sounded to me like an "invite" to any N/abuser to come and get me....I just love pain!!!
It was not until I went through the toughest year or so of my life (with my N ex husband biting at my heels as I tried to become happy) that I started to realize what that all means. He is still at it, as many of you know, and getting worse (because perhaps, I am so happy) but I NEVER would have figured out what I now know unless I had this struggle. I know for sure this learning would still be waiting in some other form, waiting for me to wake up and learn it!
What have I figured out? That I am a good person who never wants to hurt anyone, and I deserve love. That pain is simply a sign to tell us to notice something and not necessarily "bad" and to be avoided or escaped. That I can change my own feelings and thoughts even if I can't change another's. That MY opinion matters. That I am a powerful person. that everything is a choice.
And a whole lot more....but mostly, my happines right now is because of this "enemy" and the pain he presented and I learned from.
Don't mean to sound preachy, and I am not always this "up" and know full well how hard the road is....I just want everyone to know that JOY and HAPPINESS is our birthright......and pain is there not to stop it or take that away, but to LEAD us!!! I love all you guys (non-gendered expression of course).
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I am reading Daniel Deronda at present.
In it there is a story about the Buddha, about how he came across a starving tigress and her cubs one day, and he gave himself to her to be eaten, to save their lives. The tigress was very grateful, and thanked him, and then ate him up. :?
Nice as an allegory, but rather impractical as an example for everyday life.
I think we are called to -perhaps - feel sorry for the tigress in our lives, but then to run away and let her find someone else to devour. Not so enlightened, perhaps, but maybe more functional if we have others depending on us.
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Bunny -
Is the sense of vitality exciting because 'the game is afoot'? Or is it a feeling of confidence and empowerment? And what's your desired level of mental health?
Good questions...and I'm not really sure myself so explaining it will help drawn it out.
Much of this vitality issue for me comes from an observation from my very understanding wife...who loved and accepted me as a functionally-medicated yet depressed husband/father for many years and was wonderfully surprised to see a new energized side of me emerge after I confronted my extended family members last August. But as the extended family isolated us, my exuberance has settled into more of a somber slog...not quite depressed, but not much happiness and whimsy either and she is trying to get a handle herself on how long this might last, as it has put a damper on our the mood of our relationship. (BTW - we are doing some practical 'fun' things, including a dinner/play tonight, to fake-it-until-we-make-it into a less serious mood). Okay...the reason I explain this...if that energy I experienced in August was the result of reaching some legitimate breakthrough/vitality in my mental health, I have since blackslid, and I want to figure out why. But if it was some sort of spasm produced by releasing years of pent-up emotion...it might be viewed as an initial one-time spike, followed by a healthy deflation then a long gradual climb up through emotions, in which case, I'm on track more-or-less and not as worried that I've gone astray/backslid.
Okay, so your questions:
Is the sense of vitality exciting because 'the game is afoot'?
Partly yes...throughout history/literature there are moments where soldiers describe unique degrees of feeling alive, while amidst the most life-threatening circumstances of war. To some degree, almost a blood-lust of battle, there was that adreneline-type excitement to having finally engaged in the fight. BTW -- to the extent this was what was going on, I regard it more on the 'dark' side of the energy spectrum...the sensation is real enough, but not something that I'd want to sustain in that form.
Or is it a feeling of confidence and empowerment?
This I'm not sure...I did -feel- both confident and empowered, and presently feel much less so of each...but were these sustainable versions of these feelings, or more the result of a conflict-based passion? I don't know. My sense is that the slow process I'm going through now is building a deeper confidence and personal quiet power that will be stronger and more defensible in the long term...in otherwords truer. But looked at it one way, yes I did feel a vitality that included confidence, that I no longer do, at least not with the intensity.
And what's your desired level of mental health?
My mental health goal is to have the capacity to feel full-spectrum emotions -- the emphasis (happy, sad, etc) may vary depending on what life dishes out on any given day, month, year, but having the ability to experience a feeling that is appropriate to the moment is what I'm reaching for. With that comes a spiritual dimension that I'm still trying to articulate.
Love is kind of subjective. Do you mean love of their spirit? Love of their personality traits?
How I meant 'love' in the context you are asking about is sort of the do-no-harm-back regardless of the hard done to me, type. I see the potential pitfalls to this (as mudpup pointed out) since withholding N-supply by itself causes the N a type of pain/harm, akin to not enabling a drunk with $ to buy his bottle. I can pretty easily get over worrying about the anguish my N-mother may feel as I continue to disengage, since my primary concern is myself and wife/kids. But I want to do this as gently as possible...perhaps minimize the harm, while knowing there may be inevitable harm. And since I don't think N-mother or brothers will see any of this for what I see it as, all I may be left with is some intangible -intent-...hard to prove, hard to hang-my-hat-on, but if I can keep my intent as pure as I can (imperfectly) in spite of the darkness of action and perhaps intent of these other family members, that might make a tiny difference in the cosmic order. Or at least model something akin to a spiritual love to my own children.
A topic for another thread, but comes out of this question..how many of us have had to learn/relearn/teach-ourselves what 'love' is, if we came from N-parents? Here I'm weighing the issue with a straight face of whether my mother might be properly considered an 'enemy'. Given these types of families, where do we get our benchmarks from? Because its clear that there are many many loving compassionate people on this discussion group, and in my own life, I feel a strong and genuine love for my children and wife that I can't trace directly back to my parents as having instilled in me.
BG
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Hi BG,
From your posts it is plain you already have all the answers you need. You are simply in the process of digesting and implementing them. That can be a pretty painful process.
I'm wondering how long that sadness will stay with me, before it gets diluted with moments of sustained happiness, whimsy.
Different for everyone. But I really think the more we throw ourselves into our nuclear family and submerge our sadness in the joy that comes from playing with our kids and making a healthy family with our spouses the less we grieve what we lost. Or maybe the less we feel it as it is healed by time.
I've given up wanting justice, I guess I would just like credit for having tried my best.
I wasted years trying to reason with my brother. I spent nearly a year trying to talk to my mom about how she was helping him. I finally decided to write a letter stating my position, and laying out what had occurred. I gave them the opportunity to stop doing what they were/are doing and there's nothing more I can do than that. It is in writing so no one can come to me in a few years and say I never gave them the opportunity to stop. When your good faith effort is rebuffed the ball is in their court. Unfortunately they only play on their side of the court.
This perspective from CS Lewis is very valuable -- do you have the book/essay where its from and/or can you recommend a good starting point for reading Lewis?
I think it is from 'Mere Christianity' but I'm not certain. There is no better starting point for Lewis than Mere Christianity. The Screwtape Letters is very entertaining and very perceptive regarding evil. The Great Divorce is also excellent along with The Pilgrims Regress. I like his allegorical books more than his philosophical. I'm muddling through The Problem of Pain at the moment. All of those with the exception of Mere Christianity and the Problem of Pain are allegorical in nature. He had an unparallelled knack for analogy and turn of phrase.
Here's one of my faves by Lewis,
Among other things, 'I disliked their hymns, which I considered fifth-rate poems set to sixth-rate music', he writes. 'But as I went on I saw the great merit of it. I came up against different people of quite different outlooks and realised that the hymns (which were just sixth-rate music) were, nevertheless, being sung with devotion and benefit by an old saint in elastic-sided boots in the opposite pew and then you realise that you aren't fit to clean those boots. It gets you out of your solitary conceit'.
It took me awhile to realize I wasn't fit to clean most of my fellow believer's boots also. Pretty humbling when you do.
Do I regard my mother as an 'enemy'...or do I orient my thinking to regard her as a deeply flawed person who can't help do what she is doing?
I lack the power much less desire to sacrifice myself (and wife/kids) in an attempt to perfectly love people whose actions will ultimately consume me
I think you are possibly confusing perfect forgiveness or perfect love with excusing their behavior. When somone repents after a DUI, God forgives them of the eternal consequences of their actions. They still have to go to jail. When you forgive your mother for harming you that doesn't mean you have to go back and get kicked in the teeth again.
After all what good does it do your mother if you forgive her anyway? She still hasn't made peace with God. If the perpetrator of harm is unrepentent, then forgiveness is solely for the benefit of the forgiver not the forgiven, isn't it?
mudpup
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Okay...the reason I explain this...if that energy I experienced in August was the result of reaching some legitimate breakthrough/vitality in my mental health, I have since blackslid, and I want to figure out why. But if it was some sort of spasm produced by releasing years of pent-up emotion...it might be viewed as an initial one-time spike, followed by a healthy deflation then a long gradual climb up through emotions, in which case, I'm on track more-or-less and not as worried that I've gone astray/backslid.
It's very unusual for someone to change suddenly and permanently just because they confronted their family. I wouldn't call your reversion backsliding. You are just reverting to your regular self. You can change somewhat but my feeling is that the changes won't be that dramatic. I hope your wife can accept you as you are.
BTW -- to the extent this was what was going on, I regard it more on the 'dark' side of the energy spectrum...the sensation is real enough, but not something that I'd want to sustain in that form.
What do you mean by the dark side?
My mental health goal is to have the capacity to feel full-spectrum emotions -- the emphasis (happy, sad, etc) may vary depending on what life dishes out on any given day, month, year, but having the ability to experience a feeling that is appropriate to the moment is what I'm reaching for. With that comes a spiritual dimension that I'm still trying to articulate.
What would be a feeling appropriate to the moment that you don't experience?
How I meant 'love' in the context you are asking about is sort of the do-no-harm-back regardless of the hard done to me, type. I see the potential pitfalls to this (as mudpup pointed out) since withholding N-supply by itself causes the N a type of pain/harm, akin to not enabling a drunk with $ to buy his bottle.
Let's say a child is angrily demanding and screaming for a bunch of toys in Toys R Us and you don't think it's a good idea to buy them. Is that harm? Let's say someone is demanding that you give up your feelings, your rights, your independence, your time, your family, your money, etc. And you decide not to give up those things. Is that harm?
But I want to do this as gently as possible...perhaps minimize the harm, while knowing there may be inevitable harm.
I don't think gentleness is going to work with these people. So may I suggest firmness. It isn't mean, it isn't harmful. It helps everyone.
A topic for another thread, but comes out of this question..how many of us have had to learn/relearn/teach-ourselves what 'love' is, if we came from N-parents?
I don't know what love is. At least I don't experience love as it's usually described.
Here I'm weighing the issue with a straight face of whether my mother might be properly considered an 'enemy'.
It depends on what she's done and is doing. Perhaps she is an enemy. Most likely she is just a sick person.
bunny