Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Bliz on April 07, 2005, 07:24:28 AM
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..or when you have to stand up for yourself, your work etc? This thought was running through my head yesterday as I was putting out a lot of fires at work. Narbro is on vacation. I noticed how I often questioned myself or felt quilty afterward when handling difficult situations. I am interested in hearing others speak on this as I am not sure I ever noticed before.
I assume it is some old critical tapes I am running through my head. I often get this feeling also when I stand up to the Narbro or anyone else. I usually feel okay with it at the time but then later, "Monday Morning Quarterback" the whole thing and feel bad or guilty becuase he or someone else was mad at me or I couldnt give someone what they wanted even if it was impossible to do, violated my boundaries or just plain wasnt the thing to do. I guess there is also some, "nice girls don't fight back/raise their voices" or some other sick prehistoric tape in their too. Thoughts?
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I often felt guilty after I had to stand up for myself during my relationship with my Narci. But most of the arguements that we had ended up escalating to a rediculous level. The more he threw pot shots at me the nastier I became.
I guess I came to realize that I was damned if I did and damned if I didnt. If I stood in silence while he tore me down he would keep coming at me with his comments or put downs. Even when I would cry or try to talk reasonable to him he would keep saying some of the most hateful things. If I would stand up to him and start coming back at him it would only add fuel to the fire and I would have hell to pay for it when the next fight came up.
He loved to store ammunition so he could pull out the big dawgs everytime he went into one of his rages. I learned real quick not to confide in him because he would sure in the hell use it when he needed to hurt me.
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Hi Bliz:
For me.....it depends on who's doing the criticiziing and how, I think.
When my abuser did/does this, it was usually with unkind words, blunt, forceful, rude, angry and/or cruelly. My reaction was to feel hurt, insulted and depressed or angry (but, in the past, I did not say so). I would often take those words to heart and sometimes, believe them (if not consciously then at least somewhere deep inside). I allowed this person to get away with this and now....when I think about it......I want to kick myself!!
If one of my co-workers, who I respected, made constructive, kind, suggestions--even though a criticizm....well those I could easily consider and accept, without feeling bad about myself or the person saying it. Usually, I would end up feeling like I have had something helpful said to me and appreciated it, whether I decided it was the thing to do or not, I didn't feel insulted/hurt or angry.
If someone I don't like, or know very well, or haven't any admiration for makes a critical comment to me, I might react by defending myself, feeling angry, or even biting back. Afterward, I don't usually feel a whole lot of guilt because I think the person is out to lunch, or just looking to stir up trouble/not being fair/kind/reasonable.
GFN
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Hi Bliz
I notice mainly two reactions in myself. One's 'the original' reaction from as far back as I can remember, the other one's more recent. There's a third one that I wish I had instead of these two.
The old one is that I immediately feel bad, sometimes ashamed or humiliated. This is from childhood, lots of criticism for really trivial things. I've learned in therapy and from reading that this sort of thing is deliberate with abusers. They tear you down in order to make you dependent on them for approval. (Seen Patricia Evans' book 'the verbally abusive relationship'? She points out that abusers always go after what you do best, and try to convince you it's what you do worst. They're threatened by anyone else's competence. I've slowly begun to realize that people use abuse for all kinds of reasons, but they all come down to CONTROL.)
The new reaction is progress but not a total improvement. I immediately conclude that the critic, if they have delivered the criticism in a hostile or demeaning way, is just abusive (so far so good), and I want to feed their dung right back to them, on the spot (not so good). I manage to keep a lid on this most of the time, but that paralyzes me because it's like having both the brake and the accelerator floored; I can't respond in a constructive manner because I'm using all my strength to control the Fist of Death (grin).
The third one, that I've caught glimpses of and have managed to reach a few times, is to see the fact that someone is trying to abuse me, but remain emotionally safe. So far I've only been able to do this in situations where I really was disengaged and the manipulation was obvious.
Example: I have unusual hair, with a very unusual color. All natural entirely. I've had several experiences with professional stylists literally accosting me on the street, or in malls, and oohing and aahing over it, then all of a sudden turning negative - oh, this is wrong, that's wrong, this other thing is baaaad.
Well, obviously they're trying to get my guard down, then make me feel bad about one of my best features, so they can sell me a bunch of pricey garbage I don't need, or charge me $75 a week for dubious improvements on nature. I thank them for the compliments and tell them I'll certainly think about the feedback, and skip away laughing on the inside.
The reason I can stay detached here is that I know what they are doing, and I am utterly satisfied with my hair. It would take dynamite to undermine my self-confidence in that area. Also, I am not dependent on them for income or other support, so I don't feel vulnerable in any way.
This third response is the one I need to be able to come up with at work and at home. I'm workin' on it, one day at a time.
With all the abuse and putdowns floating around, there still is such a thing as legitimate criticism. I've taught, and I've supervised, and I've had to give that kind of feedback. You can tell the difference INSTANTLY. First, if the person is enjoying delivering the criticism, it ain't meant constructively. Any gloating, or sense of 'gotcha', is a giveaway. Second, if it's constructive, they'll give specific, useful examples of the change they are looking for, and offer continuing help in a non-patronizing way; they really want you to be able to modify what you are doing, and they know this means showing you what to do instead. Third, they usually try to reassure you and build you up -- right then, and also later, because they know this can be painful and they're really on your side. If any one of these elements is missing, doubt their motives.
Aggh, sorry, I didn't mean this to be a one hour lecture. I hope something in here helps. Thanks for motivating me to think about this, too.
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The old one is that I immediately feel bad, sometimes ashamed or humiliated. This is from childhood, lots of criticism for really trivial things. I've learned in therapy and from reading that this sort of thing is deliberate with abusers. They tear you down in order to make you dependent on them for approval. (Seen Patricia Evans' book 'the verbally abusive relationship'? She points out that abusers always go after what you do best, and try to convince you it's what you do worst. They're threatened by anyone else's competence. I've slowly begun to realize that people use abuse for all kinds of reasons, but they all come down to CONTROL.)
The new reaction is progress but not a total improvement. I immediately conclude that the critic, if they have delivered the criticism in a hostile or demeaning way, is just abusive (so far so good), and I want to feed their dung right back to them, on the spot (not so good). I manage to keep a lid on this most of the time, but that paralyzes me because it's like having both the brake and the accelerator floored; I can't respond in a constructive manner because I'm using all my strength to control the Fist of Death (grin).
The third one, that I've caught glimpses of and have managed to reach a few times, is to see the fact that someone is trying to abuse me, but remain emotionally safe. So far I've only been able to do this in situations where I really was disengaged and the manipulation was obvious.
Stormchild, I really identify with what you say here. Especially the part about feeling paralyzed and having the gas and the brake both pushed to the floorboards. What I've been doing recently when that happens is say that I'll think about it and talk later. That gives me time to decide exactly what I want to say and not get caught up in reacting. Not where I want to be at the third place you mention, but an improvement over reacting any day.
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This is all such good stuff. Thank you.
Yes, I agree when our families/bfs/gfs/ abused us verbally, it was in an effort to control. The fact they go after the things we do best, really hit home with me. I often felt that some of my bfs were attracted to me by the very characteristcs they later tried to destroy like my independence, fair amount of intelligence, athletic ability etc. What an eye opener!!
I am getting better about standing up for myself, verbally, "gaining my voice" so to speak. My goal is to be able to stand up when needed in as non emotional a way as possible. Sometimes it works and the results can be interesting, even funny.
When my brother typically tried to blame me when my computer was crashing, like I had somehow done something wrong, I said, "do you feel personally responsible for everything that goes wrong in your life?" He said, "no he is never responsible" and we both actually laughed.
Receiving genuine pointers, criticsm etc is not usually a problem, especially when delivered in a caring way.
The thing that kind of grabbed me about yesterday was how bad I was feeling about myself or at least the thoughts that were running through my head, when actually it was just taking care of busienss, putting out fires etc.
May be part of it was worry about later being criticized by my brother if I did something he didnt agree with. There probably also was a little anger at having to take care of all these business things and not getting my actual work done.
Bliz
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My experience has been similar to GFN's, but a little different.
When my abuser would pounce, I would often take it and let him blow off steam, but I would also often respond in kind; which would result in a prolonged shouting match which would lead nowhere. But invariably because of his willingness to always escalate one step further he would 'win' and we would end up doing what he wanted. His influence over me was complete enough that I can only recognize this pattern now that I am away from him.
Any criticism from anyone else, even people I don't like, I can usually consider fairly objectively. If it is completely unwarranted or obviously being done on behalf of my brother then I tend not to take it very well. I guess it depends on the perceived motive of the criticism.
Bliz, my brother convinced me many times that things that he had caused were my fault. The only guilt I ever felt was imposed on me by him. Now that I am out of his circle of influence any guilt he layed on me has dissipated because I can see clearly who is really to blame. I know you feel stuck in your present position, but if you can ever get yourself free from your can of mixed nuts :roll: I am sure you will find any guilt you feel lifting from your shoulders and settling on its rightful owners.
mudpuppy
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Hi Mudpup,
I was reading your response and debating with myself. If we stay to fight or at least regain our voices, learn and stand up to the Nar family is that evolving if on some level we want a relationship withthe famioly or family member. I was reading another post here about disconnecting from the family and wonder if you are given the option of not disconnecting and you can learn/handle it, enjoy the good times, is there some worth to that?
I know I will not disconnect from my nar brother employment, at least not at this time. It is too beneficial to me. I have disconnceted from the family in the past, but in some ways I'm glad I stayed, learned, got some boundaries and lived to learn from the situaiton. I am not sure disconnecting is always the answer.
Yes, defintely if it is all abuse, or constant abuse or physical abuse and never any benefits. I mean if you can gain your balance, keep your boundaries and not let them effect you most of the time, is it worth it if you otherwise want to keep a relationship with your family. If I said interacting with my family was bad all the time and never had loving moments, that would be a lie. If I said it was never debasing, shaming, male centric, etc, that would also be lying. I am debating, as the question was again raised. Just a thought.
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Hi Bliz,
Well to state the obvious, every situation is different.
In my case I didn't really have a choice. I will not own assets with my brother anymore. Period. I will not put my family in that position.
The price of that is his successful ostracization of me. I have become radioactive. I suspect several of my family members know what has been spread about me is complete bunk; they're just ducking the crossfire. If those members of my family who are normal were to seek a relationship with me, I would have no problem with that at all.
Fortunately, I only have one N to avoid. As I recall you have an entire herd of them. :?
In my case it is an easy decision. The damage he has caused me is in no way worth the few rare moments of pleasure around him or the submersion of my interests and personality. And if the price of reestablishing relations with the rest of my family is to subject myself or my wife and daughter to him, then I will not pay it.
Maybe you're a stronger personality than me. Maybe your Ns are not as unpleasant, although your brother sounds like a grade A maggot. Maybe there is enough wheat with your chaff that maintaining contact is worth it for you. I only know what I have to do. There is nothing carved in stone that says that is the only way to do it.
If he had just divided our property when I first brought it up and let us disentangle business wise, I'm sure I wouldn't have cut off contact. I wouldn't even have figured out what is wrong with him. I'd still just think he is a jerk. But his escalating war of attrition with more and more outrageous slanders against me pushed me to a position of finally drawing an absolute permanent line in the sand that this behavior is inexcusable and I will not tolerate or subject myself to it ever again. That IS cast in stone and will never change as long as I live. :x
Good luck with your menagerie. I hope you can tolerate their behavior better than I could my brother's.
mud
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Yes, and it is a menagarie. It is a question I debate often. And as I have said, I did disconnect at differnt times in my life. I probalby shouldn't debate these things in my head when I am already whupped as I am today.
And yes narbro can be absolutely horrible to anybody and everybody. I suppose I will never totally feel the same about him after seeing that side.
My father refuese to talk to his brother since he screwed him in busienss 20 years ago. The saga goes on. It sounds like several stories here. Many have tried to get them to talk..it's a small town. I cant imagine being in such a small town, living right aroudn the corner from your brother and never talking to him, bu then I dont know the intimate details of their estrangement.
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Hi, Bliz: just a thought about choices. I think I heard you say you recognize that you make a choice to stay working with your brother. I think that's a good thing to be aware of. You sound in control when you say that, like you know what's up and are putting up with him because it really does serve your needs to some extent. I read that as power.
When I took a real good look at the facts, that my exN was not REALLY in control of me, that I could, indeed, move across the country (....just not take my kids along with me.....) I then noticed that I had made a choice (which at the time seemed like a choice between jail and death). So I chose "jail" (staying here with my children) over "death" (life without them, or life with them full of possible abandonment issues and trauma).
It made me sick for a while....but then I felt powerful. I had made a wonderful choice, the only choice I would ever make, actually. But I chose. It was up to me. So what if he used my good mothering against me? I am still the best mother I can be. I still will never abandon my children. And knowing I made a choice, somehow gave me the power.
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Whoa Nelly, I found an incredible link that talks about how the person in an abusive family who recognizes the abuse and insists on exposing and addressing it becomes a 'whistleblower' and is made into a scapegoat just like whistleblowers so often are!
Please don't be put off by the very frightening word in the URL. The site focuses on all sorts of abuse, and this page talks about abusive families in a very general sense, any and all kinds of abuse, not just the extreme and awful thing in the URL. Mud, you aren't radioactive, you're a WHISTLEBLOWER!
http://incestabuse.about.com/cs/safetyplans1/a/Whistleblower.htm
Mum, I could hug you until your eyes come out on stalks. What you said about making choices and empowerment. Just clicked for me. Thanks SO much.
Bliz: seeing your Nbro's real self changed how you feel about him --- good!! and Good for you!! not being sarcastic, i'm glad for you, it's so freeing to be able to say... why, he's a jerk! ::applause::
OK, better go away and let the caffeine wear off a little :shock: :oops: :wink:
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Bliz,
you know, i've been thinking alot about my reaction to criticism. I just started a new job - and in my past job, all criticism was rather horribly delivered, which kicked up ALOT of feelings from my childhood of being "not good enough" or "a failure." I reached this wierd point where any comment anyone made drove me to feel bad about myself - and to dislike them, even when i knew they meant no harm.
In my current (much better) position, everyone is significantly nicer, removing the malice from much of the criticism. And, i have been thinking alot about my reactions. Now, I actually actively tell myself "he does not mean you did a bad job. he is just pointing out a few typos or calculations. Accept the criticism gracefully."
Obviously, as someone else pointed out, certain people are SO good at delivering it that I barely notice and happily make changes. However, there is a group of people who just aren't quite that savvy, but still dont mean any harm. They just play on our own insecurities from years of being abused. So, I am actively working not to punish them for the crimes of my nMom.
As a side note, I've been thinking alot about how I deliver feedback - and how hard it is to be both constructive and sensitive to the person. it helps me be sympathetic to people who really do mean well...
--FlowerGirl
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Thanks for the applause/kudos regarding recognizing the abusive family and brother, making my own choice etc. I think I was trying to say last night, I wondered if it was really healthy or not. Now that I am a little more rested,it becomes clearer.
It took many years for me to learn how to accept and deliver criticisms/suggestions. My delivery method was probably not the best either. I was so used to the pressure of being perfect and then the negativity and sometimes the sarcasm when I failed.
No one is perfect and it is so freeing to realize you do not control the universe. Also there are many people out there every day trying to gently guide you. ALso freeing to realize at times your relatives and family are sick and do not know the healthiest way to get things done or interact with each other.
The Whistleblower idea makes sense also. I think some of the saner members of the family undersatnd that the Nar members behavior is ridiculous, but as said here they are afraid of the anger and it is easier to just go with the flow or find somebody else to pick on.
The whole thing is such a learning curve. I try to think back to my childhood and how all this felt. The feeling I come up with his choking and suffocation. Again a losing your voice reaction.
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Hi bliz,
The Whistleblower idea makes sense also. I think some of the saner members of the family undersatnd that the Nar members behavior is ridiculous, but as said here they are afraid of the anger and it is easier to just go with the flow or find somebody else to pick on.
This kind of bugs me. I don't know if I'm more ticked off at my N or the people who just duck and hope he doesn't turn on them.
He's got the excuse of a PD, they're just chicken. I hope vunil doesn't mind, but I'm marching the nazis in again.
When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned. Then, Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church -- and there was nobody left to be concerned.
Its the same mentality. Duck and hope some other poor sucker gets it instead of you. Obviously Ns aren't Nazis, but they are bullies.
On the other hand I must confess to sitting by while he did this same thing to others before, so I can't exactly get holier than thou about it.
Once I got on the full blown receiving end of it though, it became clear to me just how morally indefensible it is to sit there and watch it being done to someone else. :evil:
mudpup
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I believe we should not sit by and watch it happen to somebody else. I try to stand up when it is happening to others. I suppsoe at one time it was kind of a sick satisfaction to watch sonebody else get it. I know better now. Also try to encourage the family members not to triangulate. Not that I am having any great success. For instance Mom gets so mad, frustrated at...(pick a brother). I said recently you should tell them at the time it is happening. She did agree, but will she do it. Again I can only work with myself.