Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Anonymous on April 12, 2005, 05:51:56 PM
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I do I know if he is a narcissist? I've been dating my BF for 6 years. I've been exposed to the following behaviours.
When his son was 5, and had school the next day and I made the comment that it was 11:00 at nite and why was he still up-my BF responded with "you are just jealous of the time I spend with my son". Any reference to any behavior of his son, was met with comments like this. The school is at wits end. The boy is now 11, and get's into trouble nearly every day-since kindergarten. My BF says "if school wants to meet with me, they do it on my time, in my space". He believes his son does no wrong. He believes HE does no wrong. He comes first, my needs do not exist. We are 20 miles apart, I do all the driving to be together. He never admits to mistakes, and actually will put the blame elsewhere.
He owns his own businesses. The first one nearly went bankrupt, he's on his 2nd and 3rd. He does not pay his necessary bills, but spends what he gets on himself and his son. He uses people to meet his needs. He's charming & kind to people on one hand, and will cut them down when he no longer needs them on the other. People are fooled by him, he will help them, but he better get something in return if a male, and adoration if its a female. He lies with ease. He struts/poses in front of women, to the point where he's obssesive and he can't get his work done. IF he even feels like working, he believes you get others to do everything for you. So even tho he can not afford help-he hires help. He needs to look good to the community.He is very defensive when any type of critizism is used, even little things.
I feel he has taken me from a secure happy woman, to the brinks of insecurity and insanity. I no longer trust my instincts. It's horrible. It's sick, because when we are alone-he is so wonderful to me. Am I dealing with 2 people? I don't know what he wants from me. If I were to strut the way he does, he'd be jealous. Am I his possession? He helps other women, and tells me to do it myself. He tells me I'm the one who has to be right all the time, even though he obviously has done something wrong, but I begin to believe it's me with the problem. In the beginning I sensed an insecurity in him, I almost go overboard in telling him he's ok-and that he should stop worrying about what other people think. I don't lecture him-I talk to him with kindness. I feel really messed up!!
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Dear Guest,
Welcome. From your description, I would most definitely say he is an N. All of the traits are there and it sounds like it is escalating. My best advice is to get out of the relationship now before he completely sucks you dry. The chances of his improving are slim and then only if he is willing to admit he needs help and gets it. Most likely he will just continue to get worse and that will spiral you down to a much worse place with less strength to leave him.
Is the boy's mother involved in his life? It sounds like someone needs to intervene in that situation or that poor child is doomed. However, it doesn't need to be you because you need to save yourself.
Many of us here have been where you are and you will find a great deal of support and advice. Good for you that you have started the process and realize that this is not a healthy relationship. You are on the right track. Keep moving forward and don't look back.
Good luck. :)
Brigid
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The short answer is Yes. He sounds like a narcissist.
Check out this site that people here have found helpful:
www.drjoecarver.com. Read the article called "IDENTIFYING LOSERS IN RELATIONSHIPS." I think it will help you more than anything I could say.
bunny
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Hi Guest,
If he isn't an N, he does a superb imitation of one.
If you don't mind an impertinent question why have you stuck with him six years if he has driven you to the brink of insecurity and insanity?
You aren't married and it doesn't sound like you have kids, so why not go look for someone who isn't a lying insecure weirdo who drives you insane? Even if you don't find someone it sounds better to be alone than with this guy. :?
mudpup
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The child's mother left the marriage when the little boy was 4yrs. old. She did not fight for custody. (Looking back, I believe she knew she would lose a custody battle.)She sees him about 6 times a year now, but earlier she stayed away. My BF had told me that the reason she left was because she was jealous of the relationship he had with their child. He told me his ex was insecure and crazy-to the point he would have used that as defense. In the beginning I felt so sorry for him, and could not believe a woman could feel that way about their child. I always thought a father's involvement was a wonderful attribute. But over the years, I saw a sickness in his relationship with his child. As if he were a extension of himself, like and arm or something, ya know-does that sound odd?
He often used the child in our relationship to get his way with me. Like, if I disagreed with him on any matter, that night he would make sure his son cuddled on his lap, and would distance me-as if to wait for me to challange the move. It was weird-anyone else go through something like this? I LOVE kids(I have raised 2 of my own), but if I were unable to do some babysitting for him, he'd accuse me of hating kids and would twist the situation.
I have often thought of talking to the boy's mother, I'm surprised the school hasn't (she lives 30 miles away in another state, does not pay child support, he has full custody). I guess I'm also the surprised the school hasn't intervened more. Just last week they had confrontation with my BF-he was again "defending" his son's actions-when a teacher said "oh my, you are the reason your son is this way" I'm not sure how long a school will take the behavior of the TWO.
I do see a possible little narcissist in the making. It's sad-but I don't know how to help him.
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Why did I stay for 6 years? His charm, his wit, his manipulation. I guestioned things, he made me feel as if I TRULY WAS THE SICK ONE. His cunning, everyone who knew him only casually would tell me how lucky I was. I for years believed them, rather than myself. Yes, why did I stay with him for so long? Why do I hurt when he's not around?
Well, I am here now. That is what matters today. I only hope these posts can give me the insight I need to go on without him-it's really not as easy to leave someone with this personality as you may think....
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It was weird-anyone else go through something like this?
That is classic N behavior. They isolate and ostracise the 'enemy' until they capitulate. I'm going through it now, but I aint capitulatin'.
I wonder if the mother is truly messed up or if she just ran away from this jerk. I can't imagine a 'normal' mother leaving her son to be raised by wolves like this. :?
mudpup
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Hi Guest...
Some of his behaviors sound similiar to my ex's! The "driving 20 miles to see him" I always had to go to my boyfriends home also. He never could come to mine and stay over. The "Defensiveness" I could never comment on a mistake he made. I couldn't tease him, or joke around with him, and if he took something the wrong way, he'd cut me down at the knees.
The "women" He thought he was something else and I should be so lucky to have him in my life. He could kiss some butt..bartenders, sales girls, strangers. He could come off "so nice".
And "other's helping him" He would always take what he could get. He would fool some people to do him "favors". But he wouldn't be so bold to demand things, only with me. "Get me something to eat" "Stop here and get this" "I want you to type this report up for me".
And for your insecurity....huh. I was always a very outspoken, outgoing person with my own mind. After dating him I thought I was losing my mind. I was always doubting myself, very hard on myself about my looks (I was never skinny or pretty enough for him) and my life pretty much revolved around him and his needs. There wasn't much of "me" left.
It's is the hardest thing to walk away. I've been back and forth with him for over a year. But I'm done now for good. And I feel like a whole new person. (And you know what, once he's gone you really won't miss the crap!)
P.S. keep writing here. These people are smart and you are not alone. It will save you're sanity, if not you're life.
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Hi again guest,
it's really not as easy to leave someone with this personality as you may think
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound snippy. After all, I hung around my brother for twenty freaking years, so its kind of the pot calling the kettle black, huh?
At least you have romantic love to blame. He was just my brother. How do they fool us so easily? (sound of shoe kicking my own rear end) :?
mudpup
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Andrea
Thank-you. You basically took the words out of my mouth! My BF is the BIGGEST jokester you could meet, but if I were to joke back, look out!! I listened to him tell me how he "joked" around all morning with the women that rent a hair salon from him on April Fools Day, but when I asked him if I dare pull pranks on a bunch of guys.., well I'm sure you can imagine his reaction.
Hey, it really feels good to finally relate to people who understand.
Thanks.
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Guest:
Welcome to this site. Yes, unfortunately you have been hoodwinked for six years by a six year old N. Six year old children are arbitrary in their relationships. You should view your relationship with this adult N as such. You are their best friend so long as you are doing what they want. They include you in their life so long as you admire them and their wants and needs. He is even using his own son to manipulate you. His Nness knows no boundaries.
The best thing you could do for yourself is to leave. The folks here at this site have been through many N type relationships. There is NO hope of him changing. He throws a crumb your way to keep you in line. So long as you mirror what he wants he is satisfied. However the minute you begin to question things .....volia you are persona non grata. I feel very sorry for the son. Where is he headed? Well as a retired teacher I can tell you if his behavior at school does not shape up, it is an alternative school for behavior disordered children. The N does not admit to anything being wrong with the son because, alas, it is a direct reflection upon himself. As you have stated the child is an extension of himself and ANY correction of his son will JUST NOT DO. The son is indeed suffering from the Nness of his father. Please get out of this relationship ASAP. Just my 2c. Patz
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Hi and welcome!
I feel really messed up!!
This is what these people do....mess us up.
Hope you will be comfy here and begin the job of undoing the mess.
The first step is in your head.....thinking and deciding what to do about the mess (which is sooooo hard with all of the feelings in there messing up all the thinking and deciding). :D :? :roll:
What a mess eh? Yep. :shock:
But luckily.....one that can be tidied up and then......life will go on for you in new and improved form. :D 8)
This guy sounds like........ not a good mate, at the very least.
So......what's next??? How much longer will you stay and feel messed up?
What do you think?
GFN
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I am trying to leave him.
Six weeks ago, he blew up at me in front of my 20 yr old son. He had been working on building a new rental building. His next big money maker. A woman was going to rent 1 of the spaces in this bldg for a hair salon. Can you imagine the attention he'll get there?
I have done his bookkkeeping since I met him, my son has worked for him for 2 years also. I have ALWAYS had to remind him of all financial responsibilities. As I mentioned earlier, he's not very good at handling money. If it were not for the lies he told the bankers, they would never have given him the loans they have given him. His favorite saying for any of his ideas "It's a no brainer" Which can make you feel like an idiot for a moment if you don't agree with him. He can actually talk to bankers this way, and get away with it. It amazes me.
One day I reminded him to make sure to charge the owner of the hair salon for some special doors she wanted put in. I no more than made the comment and he said "You just think I want to fu## her" He then, for the first time ever, threw papers at me and stormed out. I was in shock, as was my son. We walked out, and trust me, I never wanted to go back. My son kept saying "Mom, you didn't do anything, is he bi-ploar?"
I then started to wonder, WAS he guilty of something with her? Or was he still mad at me for not borrowing him $2000 a few weeks earlier. (Yes, he gets a huge construction loan from a bank, and can't pay his bills) I knew he had to meet with her a lot with the bldg project. I also know, of course, that he LOVES attention. I really never thought he'd act on it though. My intuition won out (not to mention his rage in front of my son), so I swore I'd never go back.
Five days later, he called. He wanted to see me. He looked like a hurt puppy. He asked if I was still mad? (I of course, never showed anger that day, only shock). He begged me to come back. And even though he still denied any blame in what had transpired, I went back.
Last week things escalated again. He was lying about little things. Things were looking suspicious with this other woman. My son was even noticing.The thought did cross my mind that he would try to make me jealous so I would be extra nice to keep him happy. In the past, I unfortunately would give him money, use of my car, whatever he needed if I felt our relationship needed mending. He'd have a way of making me feel like I was a heel if I didn't help him whenever he wanted.
I'd had enuf. I told him I had to end things between us. It was if he would not accept it totally, he thinks we are only seperating for a short time, while I SEEK COUNSELING for MY problems.
It's been 8 days. You will probably still see me refer to him as if he is my current BF yet. I saw him today for a few moments. We talked a little. I'm started to flood myself with good memories-but I know I can't go back. I will try to keep my eye on these posts to help me through..........
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Guest:
Please keep posting here. GFN is correct, you must unmess this situation up. As far as him being a "wheeler dealer" kind of person? I don't think so. If he has to borrow money from you, borrow your car, cannot pay people, lie to bankers..........just how long do you think this house of cards can stay up? This is just from the business angle and does not even address what he owes and does personally. Just from a different angle, even though he has to sign his name for the liabilites, do you really expect him to take all the blame when all the business stuff he does heads south? After all YOU have been handling the money etc. and KNEW what he needed to do.....ergo he is blameless. We are talking about a person that does not even take responsiblity for installation of doors in a beauty salon. He is six.
I had an N, now deceased husband who got me into 150K in debt due his "business". It took all my energy and brain power to get out of it. Truly traumatic. Patz
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1.....And even though he still denied any blame in what had transpired, I went back.
2....I told him I had to end things between us. It was if he would not accept it totally, he thinks we are only seperating for a short time, while I SEEK COUNSELING for MY problems.
3....I'm started to flood myself with good memories-but I know I can't go back. I will try to keep my eye on these posts to help me through..........
I took the liberty of truncating your post to illuminate three salient points:
1. Npeople are masters when it comes to deflecting blame and abdicating responsibility----it is ALWAYS everyone else's problem. It has been my experience that this NEVER changes.
2. The people "closest" to N's often come away from the relationship feeling totally screwed-up because of how N's function within the relationship(see #1 above). N's will do and say ANYTHING to keep from feeling like their narcissistic supply is being compromised---if an N actually acknowledged the hurt (s)he caused someone else, it might cause the N to "feel bad" about him/herself, thus defeating(in the N's mind) the "purpose" for said relationship in the first place(which is to use the other person to feed the Nsupply and keep the N's sense of superiority intact).
3. It is so easy, when you put a little time and distance between yourself and the Nperson, to look only at the "rosier" moments in your relationhip, thus conjuring-up feelings of nostalgia and self-doubt("were things really THAT bad?" "did it really merit my having to leave, or should I have hung in there to work things out?"). But you did the right thing. Trust your gut---your instincts tell you that this situation is really unhealthy, and you are absolutely right.
Stay away from this guy---in the long run, you will be so glad that you had the strength and courage to move forward(and your son will be glad, too---- it must hurt him to see you taking this abuse).
When you doubt yourself or find yourself in a "weak" moment(i.e., when you feel overwhelmed by the XBF's Ntactics---he will probably pull-out all of the stops if you make good on your promise to stay away), come to this site and keep posting. You have come to the right place----the people here are very wise and kind(and because of their combined experiences with N's, they have probably "heard every line in the book," so they can help you to keep thinking clearly, thus bolstering your resolve) .
Stay strong, Guest. : )
PQC
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(How do you guys do those guotes in the white box?)
Patz wrote: "After all YOU have been handling the money etc. & KNEW what he needed to do...ergo he is blameless". Are you saying it was MY fault? Or are you saying in HIS mind I was to blame. Sorry, but this guy has put a lot of doubt about what I say to anyone anymore......
I was his bookkeeper-he had to sign the checks. Whenever I told him there was no money to pay bills, payroll, ER, phone, etc. -he would ignore my request as if it didn't matter(it was his attitude, no one would dare cut off his phone,etc).
He'd somehow then come up with some money, which I'd suggest he pay the past due bills with. But instead he'd immediately waste the money on his son, for example. If I'd say, you really couldn't afford to do that-he'd say "what, now I can't spend money on my son? You're just jealous" Then I would get the cold shoulder for a day, followed by all the CHARM in the world.
While being under his "cold shoulder" I would think & believe, "I had no right to stop him from doing things with his son, how awful of me. I don't want to be a bad step-parent one day" I WOULD TOTALLY FORGET that the issue was- he needed money to pay the bills!! That's how twisted he'd get my mind.
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It's been 8 days.
I'm soooooo glad!!! Please, please, please keep posting and do not give in to any urge to contact him.
Please, please, please ignor any contact he attempts with you and just come here and post for support!!
This guy is doing this:
That's how twisted he'd get my mind.
To get untwisted, stick around here. Read. Write. Think. Keep yourself from concentrating on this guy. He's hurting you and hurting your son.
We will support you all the way. It isn't easy but you are already "8 days"!!! Fantastic!!! You don't need to be messed up or have your thinking all twisted around, do you? You don't need to be treated like some servant by him, who usesssssssssssssss you for everything he can get, do you? You do not need to feel bad about yourself for trying to help this guy, for caring about his son, for believing his bs, for trying to make a relationship work with him, for putting up with his junk/stuff/crap.
You've done your best and he has taken advantage of you/tricked you/used you/manipulated you/guilt tripped you/etc etc etc. The fact that you are away from him for 8 days shows that you are NOT willing to take any more!!! Good for you!!!
Please....focus on yourself and your son, right now. You can always go over all the "good memories" later. Right now.....think of this harmful relationship and what it's doing to you. You DESERVE much better than this!!
You deserve to be loved and treated with respect and honesty and kindness and generosity and loyalty and honour......the way you have tried to treat this creep. Please don't settle for less.
((((((((Guest)))))))))
GFN
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Guest: OH, Boy, can I relate. The charm, the "wit", the manipulation, the confusion, the PAIN. And I spent 13 years with this and had two kids with my big N...so believe me when I say, noone here thinks badly of you for being where you are. No judgement, it's just where you are. BUT, good news, you are reaching out for something else. This is a good place.
As a teacher, I know that guy is every school's nightmare! Why? Because he USES his child, as you so aptly stated, as an extension of himself. My own ex sees his children as possessions to use and manipulate....but curses! Foiled again....I left him and they have a healthier way to see how life is done....so his "influence" is diminishing over time. Teachers, for the most part, LOVE children, and a parent who does NOT really hurts us to see.
His behavior is awful toward everyone....he sounds like a classic narcissist and then some. He is an "emotional vampire" (aside: anyone read that book yet?)
When I read your first post I just wanted to ask (again and again): "you are with him....WHY????" but that sounds kinda blunt. But I wish someone had asked me that over and over until I HAD to answer it way back when....then I would have realized my answers all had to do with me not loving myself...and his "love" supported my own self hatred.
When my ex cheated on me the first of many times (yup, slow learner), I remember thinking: "it must be love because it hurts SOOOO much".
WRONG! LOVE is the exact opposite of fear and pain. It is NOT love if it hurts that much. It is his sick and insane version of it, and the mess he created in your head.....that's the sicko talking, not you!
Have you considered therapy? I wish I had looong ago, (I go now) because if I had, I would have worked on finding love for myself, so much that I NEVER would have accepted abuse (like you have....same stuff) from anyone. I do not regret having gone through this however, as I have 2 fantastic kids and without such a struggle, I never would be on this healthy path. That said, I wish that others could learn what I have and take care of themselves, love and honor themselves, first and foremost, for THAT is the only way we ever find true love...it starts within. I think that's why everyone on this board writes back....we've felt this pain (or are still feeling it) and have found some help and we all know, there is definately strength in numbers!!!
Bless you....sending you lots of strength and light! Keep posting.
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Hi again guest,
I know throwing papers at someone can sound like only petty behavior.
But it can also be the beginning of a dangerous escalation.
Mentally, its not that far from throwing papers to something a little more solid, like a fist. Especially if the relationship is going through cycles of seperation and return.
It could put your son in a bad spot too.
You deserve better, praying you can stay strong.
mudpup
Again sorry if I sounded a little persnickety on the first page. :oops: :oops: :oops:
The quote thingy, with credit to GFN for showing me,
In ''topic review',
Left click and drag your pointer to highlight the text you want to quote,
Right click; a small menu box will pop up.
In the menu click 'copy',
Go to the reply box,
Left click where you want the quote go, your cursor will appear there
right click for the menu box again,
In the menu box click 'paste' and the text will appear,
Left click and drag your pointer again to highlight the text,
Go to 'quote' above your reply box and click it,
The word quote will appear before and after the text you want to quote,
When you post it, it will be highlighted as a quote. Voila. :wink:
If I can do it anyone can. Of course I was probably following clearer instructions. :roll: :P
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Guest,
I actually started the thread on money because of what you had written here and I could relate to so much of it.
Help with the quoting thing:
Use the left click button on your mouse to highlight what you want to quote. Right click the copy option. Determine where you want to insert the quote and right click the paste option. Use the left click to highlight the quote and choose the quote option from the above menu. Voila! Hope that helps.
I agree with Mum about getting a therapist if you don't already have one. It really makes a huge difference. And keep posting and adding on those days. It does get easier and does start feeling better as much as it feels really crappy right now. :(
Hang in there.
Brigid
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Again sorry if I sounded a little persnickety on the first page.
Mudpup-Apology accepted. Thanks.
(Thanks to you all for the quote instructions!!)
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Mum as Guest:When I read your post to me, I cried. Not sure why it hit me so hard.
"you are with him....WHY????"
I was with him in the beginning, because I thought he was sooooooo much better than what I had. I thought he was my dream come true. I had just divorced my alcoholic husband of 20 years. My BF said he didn't need the bars, he said he wanted to spend time with me doing the things I liked-that my interests were his. He said that my values/morals were identical to his. He got me hooked. But it didn't last long. Looking back, the signs were there almost within the first weeks of the relationship.
me not loving myself...
Is that it-we don't love ourselves? I have never wanted to come across as selfish, so I have never asked for much. I have been told by a therapist in the past that I needed to learn to be a #itch. I allowed myself to stay in an alcoholic relationship for 20 years. I really thought I knew better the 2nd time around. I am disappointed in myself. So yes, next week I am starting therapy.
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Guest,
Is that it-we don't love ourselves? I have never wanted to come across as selfish, so I have never asked for much.
Most definitely!! You didn't ask for much because you didn't want to be selfish, it was because you didn't think you deserved it. When our lives have been tormented by N behavior, we lose all sense of self and just settle for the crumbs of attention and love rather than insisting on a complete relationship filled with love, respect, honor, and deep intimacy, IMHO.
Good for you that you are going to seek therapy. Start taking good care of yourself.
Brigid
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I am disappointed in myself.
Well......you didn't stay 20 years this time, so you are learning. That's a good thing.
I thought he was my dream come true. I had just divorced my alcoholic husband of 20 years. My BF said he didn't need the bars, he said he wanted to spend time with me doing the things I liked-that my interests were his. He said that my values/morals were identical to his.
So who wouldn't fall for this?? At first......he seemed like the right person.
These people are sooooo convincing!! :evil:
Looking back, the signs were there almost within the first weeks of the relationship.
Good!! At least you are looking back and seeing that. Next time, these will set off alarms for you and help you to bypass getting involved. You are doing well......learning from the past! Good going!
....next week I am starting therapy.
Another good thing. More support for you! Another head to help you sort out the mess. Great stuff!!!
Glad you're posting and even....crying. :cry: That probably happened because you are starting to feel heard and understood???? What a relief!! I hope so!!!
((((((((((Guest))))))))))
GFN
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Guest, I feel for you. I am going through a somewhat similar situation, though my wife is not overt in anything to the degree of your XBF. My mind has been swirling around in confusion and hurt for the last 17 years. Somehow I started to wake up and realize what has been going on and taking steps to get my life and my self back. His behavior will continue with you as long as you allow it continue. I urge you not to have any contact with him at all. No seeing him, phone calls, emails, 3rd party reports, etc. You will be much better off without all of this in your life.
It sounds easy to say that you just won't allow it or that you will just leave. However, he picked you for a reason. He knew that it would be hard for you to stop it. He knew that it would be hard for you to leave. He knew that it would be easy for him to charm and confuse you. For many years, my wife has blamed literally every problem in our relationship on me. She is "perfect," you know. Then she convinced me that I was lucky to have her since no one else would put up with someone as bad as me. All I had to do was let her treat me any way she wants, as an object to be used, as her own private emotional dumping ground for all those yucky feelings she refuses to own. Sorry, I'm ranting again.
You aren't married to this person. It probably best to have NO further contact whatsoever. easy to say, very hard for us to do. I keep getting "hoovered" back in with my wife. Well, I did in the past. That hasn't happened now for about a month. Yay! You might check out this website. Dr. Irene is a smart cookie of few, but insightful words.
http://www.drirene.com/
I am co-dpendent, maybe you are too? That means that I learned growing up to take care of other people so that hopefully, someday, they might turn back around and take care of me. This means that I have to tolerate any and all abusive or hateful behavior from them because that is the only way I will ever get my needs met. Thank God I no longer see things that way. I am a recovering co-dependent. Now, I see that I need to take action to amke sure that my needs get met. Then, once my needs are met I can turn around and give to others as I am abel and as I choose. I do not need to appease an abuser as a way of "taking care" of myself. I need that OUT of my life. I have no time/energy/emotion/sanity to waste on that dead end approach any longer. If this is new to you, you might check out this book.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0894864025/qid=1113417681/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-0996084-5119057
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Guest,
My T has explained to me that N's very often prey on people who are vulnerable. When I met my NH I was just ending a marriage with an emotionally abusive man. I was looking to be treated with kindness and respect and caring and my H (2nd one) came across with all of that in the beginning. They suck you in with their very charming facades and you want to believe all the sweet things they tell you.
You are lucky you did not marry this man and have his children. It is so much more difficult to sever that kind of relationship. You were obviously very vulnerable when you met him and were easily taken in. Believe me, I get it. Be proud of yourself that you are leaving now.
Brigid
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Hi, again, Guest. I have to ditto Brigid here, as we all seem to have fallen into a similar trap. I married my second, more charming exN, soon after divorcing the cheating, mean one. I still had the same self doubt that led me to accept the first one's garbage (his unprocessed pain) so I went right ahead and got suckered by the first guy who told me I was pretty (boy, I needed to hear that one!). He was far more charming, as I was his third wife, but after a while.....he was just as self involved and babyish. THEN I did the work that needed to be done for myself.....the healing. (still in process).
Now I know why I made the choices I did, and that I deserve love and respect in any relationship (and I am no longer blind as to what MY definition of love is).
I think you are ahead of the game in recognizing what is happening for you.
Welcome to the world of the awaken. It's not always easy, but it's a heck of a lot more joyful than doing life unconsiously and not knowing why we're miserable.
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If this is new to you, you might check out this book.
I once tried to read this book "Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring For Yourself" . I used to own the book, until my BF came over one day and threw out ALL my books and magazines.
He said that reading these things put ideas into my head-that I somehow made what I read a "reality". I have always read for knowledge, to learn, to compile information to make informed decisions about things and for pure enjoyment. He hated hearing my opinions on things I read about-and now that I've thought about it- he hated my opinions on almost anything unless he was buttering me up for something.
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I used to own the book, until my BF came over one day and threw out ALL my books and magazines.
He said that reading these things put ideas into my head-that I somehow made what I read a "reality".
Oh Guest,
That would be hilarious if it wasn't so sickening.
:evil:
He didn't want any competition for forming your 'reality'. What a first rate creep. I thought of something juicier to call him, but it wasn't fit for viewing by the gentle ladies here. :shock: Yeah, right. I bet they thought of worse names than I did. :wink:
You could post that in the 'most narcissistic comments ever' thread.
And on top of that to throw out your own stuff. Jeez what a typical N jackass.
Makes me steam just thinking about it! :evil: :evil: :evil:
mudpup
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Welcome Sunshine 22:
I gotta tell ya......I just got a terrible giggle out of reading what you just wrote.
Too flippin' funny!! What a joke (if it wasn't so sad and true....sorry for laughing...really I am :oops: :oops: :oops: ).
The IDIOT gets a dog...gives the dog away to prove what???...gets another dog...runs over it...gets mad at whoever (happens to be you)...gets another dog....???? :shock: (I realllllllly need a crazy icon about now!!)
Fur Crying Out Loud!!! I want to tell him.......he's gone to the dogS!!!
Seriously!!! Doggone nuts!!! Doggnabbit.......dogs aren't toys to play with and throw away.......or toss asside on a whim.....or to use to expressssssssssss yourself!!! :shock: :shock:
It is terribly sad to think of his poor son and of the poor animals at his mercy. :(
He's a real...........canine himself!!! :evil:
GFN
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Hi Sunshine,
Glad you explained the change in names,
I was wrong-he accidentily ran it over-within a week
Do they do anything 'accidentally'? Just my suspicious nature after years of observing behind the scenes N planning. Maybe it was too much trouble to feed. :shock: :?
mudpup
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Hey Sunshine:
Oh, Thank you. I just got a belly laugh myself. Maybe there is hope for me. (But I reallly do feel bad for the dog and his son-it is sad, but true.)
Oh yes!!! There's plenty of hope for you, I think!!!
Nothing wrong with your sense of humour either!! :D
I did have a hard time laughing at HIS jokes. They always included hurting or degrading people.
GEE! Just like he treats dogs eh? No kidding. No wonder you didn't laugh.
Maybe it was too much trouble to feed.
Ya Mudpup! Or maybe he couldn't get enough off it to satisfy himself! :evil:
I'm glad you're away from this.........thing............Sunshine.
You'll be much better off! You'll see. (((((((Sunshine)))))))
GFN
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Hey, Sunshine 22 (love the name) is this a new name for the former "guest" who started the thread?
Dog story: awful and soooo very angry N (my ex.....same type)
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Some of his behaviors sound similiar to my ex's! The "driving 20 miles to see him" I always had to go to my boyfriends home also. He never could come to mine and stay over. The "Defensiveness" I could never comment on a mistake he made. I couldn't tease him, or joke around with him, and if he took something the wrong way, he'd cut me down at the knees
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Your post sounds exactly..i mean exactly like my b/f. Everything. To never been being pretty enough,young enough,thin enough smart enough,or good enough. To driving to HIS house. To stopping to do things for him (when i have worked for 9 hours and have to get home to my 6 year old) If he didnt get his way he became just like a three year old child. You know sometimes i lughed at him and walked away! It drove him nuts!! It goes on and on. I have no idea why we stay with such men. I think for me its the money and the time and the energy iH ave givne this jerk. I have lent (given as i know i will never see the money again) him more money then i care to say. Its scary. I have given him almost 5 years and i have spent countless hours in trying to make something "work" for us. I too thought i was losing my mind,BUT I have always been very strong.But not strong enough,since i let myself day afdter day get stuck into such a horrible situation... My Mother,brother,and grandmother are all N's. My Motther is the worse. Living with her was not something words could discrible The only thing to do is to GET AWAY...They are sick.....
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Sunshine....
I know throwing papers at someone can sound like only petty behavior.
But it can also be the beginning of a dangerous escalation.
I don't know who wrote that but it's true. I thought my relationship with my ex was getting "closer" but it was steadily becoming more violent. As I was further under his control he ripped me apart emotionally and physically.
I now have a restraining order and a pending court case. If I hadn't been such a mouse I should have kicked his sorry ass the first time. But I CHOSE to stay and took it. And it never gets better.
Since we HAVE FEELINGS, we forgive, try to forget, go back, placate these people cuz god forbid we upset their world. They don't care. And when they're done with us they move on.
I wake up each day with such a feeling of freedom now and my self esteem is not being beaten to death every day anymore.
All I know is once you're done and walk away, each day gets a little easier. One day you'll ask yourself what the hell were you doing with that man?
Keep on.
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I wake up each day with such a feeling of freedom now and my self esteem is not being beaten to death every day anymore.
All I know is once you're done and walk away, each day gets a little easier. One day you'll ask yourself what the hell were you doing with that man?
YAY, Andrea!!!! I am so happy to hear that things are looking up!! You go, Girl!!!!!
:D PQC
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Sunshine, what you are describing is a classic emotional abuser. First he builds you up, then he knocks the props out from under you.
Why, why, why do you think he dropped you like a hot rock if a 'babe' came within range? If that man had loved you for a nanosecond, he wouldn't have considered any other woman on the planet. You would have been the only 'babe' he could see.
Please read The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans or look it up online, I think she has a web site now.
this man did not love you. He was gaming you. They bait the hook with a promise they never intend to keep.
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It's only been 2 weeks since I left my N BF-and I need a fix!!
That's really what it was: a fix. Not love. :cry:
Everyday for 4 days in a row (I worked for him) I'd receive a cheerful "Hi Honey"-followed by a kiss. He would actually stop everything he was doing to greet me this way. I'D FEEL SO LOVED. On the 5th day he'd say "Hi Honey-oh, you look pale, OR why are you wearing that, OR ughh, bad hair day, OR not enuf sleep last nite and on & on. He would then SKIP the kiss and walk away.
This is called "intermittent reinforcement." It's the most addictive kind of reinforcement and the most manipulative.
I battle in my head. Doesn't being felt loved outweigh my personal insecurities? I need to be fixed-not him. Should I have not risen above the negative comments he threw at me? He was being who he was-strong. I'm the one who can't be me-I am weak.
If he loved you, he wouldn't do these jerk/sadistic behaviors. This isn't about insecurity. It's about being brainwashed and manipulated by an N.
Keep posting and don't contact him. He is toxic to you!!!
bunny
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Why do I feel that I need this trumoil in my life? Do I really believe that the reward is love? His love? Any love is better than no love?
Oh girl....I've said the same things to myself.
LOVE IS NOT A REWARD! I read somewhere that Love is a self-less GIFT.
And if you have to fight for it constantly, is it worth it? These guys make you practically beg for love and attention! Gosh, I've shut my mouth, never argued, pacified, complimented, stroked his ego, just so I wouldn't ruffle any feathers to keep him happy.
But he NEVER went out of HIS way to make me happy!
Honestly, I'd rather be single and ALONE now than put up with 10% affection when ALL OF US DESERVE 100%
Think of it this way....would you wear and "arm" of a sweater to keep warm? Bake a 1/4 of a pie for someone? Talk to someone and just walk away in the middle of the conversation? That's how these people treat us. Give you so much, then oops, Sorry! Got to go- something more important (ME) came up!
And lastly, honestly, when you start removing you self from the situation (which I know is hard cuz you work together) you will SEE the difference.
And NO YOU WILL NOT MISS THE TURMOIL. Your eyes will be open and see how much crap you have put up with. And you're going to wonder how you did it!
And then one night, you will sleep peacefully-and alone. And that will be the best night of sleep you've known in a looooooong time.
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I stopped myself from running to him this weekend. I actually had visions of me telling him he IS always right, he IS the wise person in our relationship. Had I done this, he would have congratulated me on my understanding of how things should be, that I have the problem-not him. I WOULD HAVE FELT LOVED---for awhile anyway.....
You may be right about your N, but some would respond differently, I think. Ns are very good at kicking you when you are down. My Nmum wants me to apologise for something she did to me ( :lol: ) several years ago. My dad, knowing the full situation, nonetheless told me to apologise to her, and let her say whatever she wanted to say for as long as she wanted, without responding back, and that, if I did that, eventually she would get over it and everything would be fine again. He said 'it can't go on like this!' (Ie with me standing up for myself)
That is his way of dealing with marriage to an N. I politely declined to behave in this way. And it has gone on like that. I don't allow lies without comment, although often just gentle comment, or laughter. I don't go out of my way to abuse my Nmum, but I don't pander to her either. She controls everyone else around her, but she does not control me in the same way. There is an element of control as long as I carry on visiting, but it is much more limited, and it is there as an alternative for anyone with the eyes to see it.
So perhaps, just perhaps, if you had gone back to your 'friend', he would have taken a very aggrieved stance, and said something along the lines of 'Sorry is not enough. You have really hurt me; I am not sure I can ever forgive you.' Ns like us to grovel in the dirt for them, so they can step on us, and wipe their shoes clean. Then they want us to say 'thank you'.
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LOVE IS NOT A REWARD! I read somewhere that Love is a self-less GIFT.
Wow, I don't think I've ever seen this written as concisely as you did. I really do look at things that if I'm "good enough" maybe one day I will get the "prize" of being loved. Its hard to recognize what that would look like, because I don't think that I've ever really felt loved. Not as in getting a gift of love or being loved for who I am. Mostly the messages I've gotten were that I was "tolerated" despite who I was.
And if you have to fight for it constantly, is it worth it? These guys make you practically beg for love and attention! Gosh, I've shut my mouth, never argued, pacified, complimented, stroked his ego, just so I wouldn't ruffle any feathers to keep him happy.
It isn't just guys who act this way. "Women" act this way as well. :( I have tried to appease my wife, but that just continues the same situation on and on.
But he NEVER went out of HIS way to make me happy!
Honestly, I'd rather be single and ALONE now than put up with 10% affection when ALL OF US DESERVE 100%
I feel the same way, but why is is SOOSOOOOOO hard to just get up and leave this situation?
Think of it this way....would you wear and "arm" of a sweater to keep warm? Bake a 1/4 of a pie for someone? Talk to someone and just walk away in the middle of the conversation? That's how these people treat us. Give you so much, then oops, Sorry! Got to go- something more important (ME) came up!
Yes, if there is anything else that my wife wants, she goes for that first. Only when no one else is around and she is feeling generous does she bother to realize that I am there. I am a "thing" to be used for its utility to her.
And lastly, honestly, when you start removing you self from the situation (which I know is hard cuz you work together) you will SEE the difference.
And NO YOU WILL NOT MISS THE TURMOIL. Your eyes will be open and see how much crap you have put up with. And you're going to wonder how you did it!
And then one night, you will sleep peacefully-and alone. And that will be the best night of sleep you've known in a looooooong time.
Promise?
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Andrea said:
Since we HAVE FEELINGS, we forgive, try to forget, go back, placate these people cuz god forbid we upset their world.
When I was a child I watched & learned from my mother. She was so kind, so gentle-never wanted to rock the boat.
My father owned his own business. He kept mom at hom -"barefoot & pregnant" (10 kids). Dad always had a smile on his face, was always happily whistling a tune. He was handsome, funny, a real people person, and he loved kids. He was so active with us, playing games, taking us fishing,etc.
However, that was during the day. That was in public. The public didn't know what we knew.
Us kids would be awakened in the night by the sounds of a man's angry voice. When we got up my mon, trying to hide the tears, would be taping together a lamp or something. He never hit her, but he threw things and made her cry. My Dad, would be happy and cheerful, as he kissed us all good-bye for the day. Mom would make up excuses for what had happened.
I have memories of my dad calling my mom a whore-she was home always with a baby, there was no way on God's green Earth this would have even been possible. My dad however, would be out getting all sorts of attention from the ladies all day long. The benefits of having your own business, I guess. I would be so embarassed when he'd flirt in front of me.
I learned at a young age to keep my dad happy(and all future men possibly?)-I didn't want to get yelled at. I always blamed my mom when I was little. What was she doing to make my dad so mad? I'd pray "please mom, just be quiet and daddy will love you-don't make him mad".
Andrea wrote:
LOVE IS NOT A REWARD! I read somewhere that Love is a self-less GIFT.
longtire wrote:
Wow, I don't think I've ever seen this written as concisely as you did. I really do look at things that if I'm "good enough" maybe one day I will get the "prize" of being loved
I loved my dad. He was fun. I felt I understood him. I tried really hard to make him proud of me. I would never do anything wrong. I wanted his love.
I learned that being perfect, is of course, not possible. I have suffered from an anxiety disorder for years, a by-product of my quest for "perfect".
And today, who am I angry at?? My mother! For not teaching us girls to be strong. I still feel sorry for dad. Yes, I'd say he too was a N.
I did recognize in early adulthood that my parents relatioinship was not healthy. I swore I'd never be with a man who was like my dad. I gagged when I heard the comments "girls often marry someone like dad". Not me, I thought. I wouldn't even date guys who had dark hair (like dads). I ended up marrying an alcoholic, but hey, dad did not drink.
Well, when I met my N BF he owned his own business. He had dark hair, was fun and alwalys had a smile on his face. He loved kids and was a real people person. Talk about "going full circle"......
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Sunshine22, there are a few things that really stick out at me from your last few posts.
When I was a child I watched & learned from my mother. She was so kind, so gentle-never wanted to rock the boat. ... Dad always had a smile on his face ... The public didn't know what we knew. Us kids would be awakened in the night by the sounds of a man's angry voice. ... He never hit her, but he threw things and made her cry. My Dad, would be happy and cheerful, as he kissed us all good-bye for the day. Mom would make up excuses for what had happened. I have memories of my dad calling my mom a whore ... My dad however, would be out getting all sorts of attention from the ladies all day long. ... I would be so embarassed when he'd flirt in front of me.
And today, who am I angry at?? My mother! For not teaching us girls to be strong. I still feel sorry for dad. Yes, I'd say he too was a N.
I read that and then reread this from another earlier your post:
Why do I need the FIX of him telling me I am unworthy, insecure, jealous, not able to trust, and a person that he "has to lie to because the truth only upsets me"??Why do I feel that I need this trumoil in my life?
But the battle in my head isn't over yet. Over & over for 20 years, I listened to the fact that alcoholism is a disease. How can you leave someone who is ill? So, I start to feel guilty for this poor soul who has been cursed with the illness of NPD. I feel I need to forgive him and show him the care and understanding that any 6year old needs to grow.
And the following just keeps coming back at me:
And today, who am I angry at?? My mother! For not teaching us girls to be strong. I still feel sorry for dad. Yes, I'd say he too was a N.
It seems to me that you relate yourself to your mother and the guy to your father, and you feel "unworthy" and you feel sorry for the guy. I think it might be time for you to forgive your mother and yourself and stop feeling so sorry for your father and the guy.
LM
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Sunshine,
Good news all around. Sounds like you have found a therapist with whom you have rapport and comfort. Sounds like s/he also is quite familiar with the N personality. My T has taught me so much and helped me to understand how I ended up accepting these kind of men into my life. My T says even if you can get an N to therapy, they very rarely stay because they aren't willing to do the work necessary (or do they see the need to) to heal. My N H sees a therapist who only deals with his external issues so he is OK with that. When he saw my T when we were in couples counseling, he ran away as quickly as he could (and tried to charm his way through the few sessions he did go to).
Good for you. I'll keep sending good thoughts your way.
Hugs,
Brigid
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I think it might be time for you to forgive your mother and yourself and stop feeling so sorry for your father and the guy.
I realize now that the above statement of mine was rude and I truly apologize for that.
I don't want to be a victim anymore.
And I will forgive my mother (and myself) when the time is right.
Yes you will.
Years of being told to feel sorry for people doesn't go away that easy.
And years of brainwashing (being told or manipulated into believing I was worthless), or whatever it is these men do to you, just doesn't go away overnight either.
You are right.
You have a lot of understanding of what is going on and this therapist sounds like someone who can really help you work through all this. Again I apologize for my insensitivity and rudeness.
I can relate to how knowing these things and feeling them can be two different things. Some I think it's a struggle that does continue on I don't know maybe forever. I'm not saying that to try to be discouraging. But it's an issue and struggle that continues because there is usually always someone around who feeds it. I don't know if I'm making a whole lot of sense here with what I'm trying to say, can anyone help me out here?
LM