Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: OR on April 16, 2005, 12:39:00 AM
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Hi to all,
Not dealing with the emotional rollercoaster for just over 1 month has been such a relief.
I don't want to sound insecure when my H comes out with his crazy lies.
I feel that if I had a better response. than repeating what the N is saying to me, I would not be questioned about my lack of confidence.
I just wanted to know if this is a common reaction when you repeat what the N says.
MY PROBLEM: I repeat what the N says and people will say:
"Why do you listen to him"?,
"You know he lies"
You need to stand up to him, don't let him intimidate you.
You don't believe him.?
"If you believe that one"
Don't worry he is only saying that to scare you.
Does anyone else get this when you reapeat what someone says?
or is it just with the N's. I have been so sheltered.
Do you feel like when you say what an N will tell you, that somehow it's a refelction on you?
Or do you really believe that other's just don't understand all the crap that is behind the N's way of thinking. That maybe you should be worried.
What do you think?
OR
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I just think it's easier for people outside the situation to see when the N is being ridiculous! That's why I like this board-- I can repeat something an N in my life said, and get back a lot of disbelief and "wow, that is amazing" and "don't let it bother you" and etc.
Also, folks do reflect back what you already think-- they take cues to do that. So, it also means you are moving away from him in your mind! That is great news, too.
All in all it seems ok-- I don't think they are diminishing your pain, they are just reflecting back what's going on. And he DOES lie, for sure.
As for the involvement you feel with him that they don't feel, that's normal, and is something for you to work for (not feeling so involved). It's pretty tough, I know.
hang in there :)
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Hi OR
The big thing is the nonverbal part of what the non-Ns are saying to you.
One person can say "why do you even bother with him?" and they are looking into your eyes and have a genuinely concerned expression.
Another person can say the same thing, and they are half turned away from you looking at ANYTHING else they can find to look at, with a sneering expression around the nose and mouth.
Only the concerned ones are worth your time. They may be unable to give you a lot of their time, because of other obligations, but what they can spare will be worthwhile. The others - well. They just don't give a rat's patoot, or they enjoy feeling superior to people in trouble. And they certainly won't be a very present help.
Not all Ns are obviously mean, and not all meanies are obviously N. It can be very confusing......
One thing that does inflame me, and I'll try to keep that off to the side enough, is when people encourage you to stand up for yourself. A lot of the time, what you need is others standing behind you, either directly (as in an office bully situation) or emotionally. A lot of the time, the people who are encouraging you to "stand up to" someone are really stirring the pot, and instigating, and they get some kind of entertainment from watching other people fight. Watch out for these clowns, they are incredibly destructive, and most people don't recognize them.
(((((OR)))))
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(((((OR)))))
I think that people who haven't been through a similar situation cannot understand how hard it is to detach from someone who acts this way. I think they *believe* that they would simply walk away with no connection and go right on with their lives. Some of them are probably right. I suspect that more of them would have the same issues and difficulty many of us here do, they just haven't been placed in that situation yet. From the comments you listed, I could believe that most people are genuinely trying to help, they just can't really comprehend people acting like this and the damage it causes.
As for a better response? I believe that most people you encounter are more interested in what OR has to say. I know I am, though I do enjoy the dark humor of comments on "The Most N Thing Ever Said" thread. :evil: You might slip in some of his comments and check other people's responses. If they understand, you can open up more in this area. If they give some flip response like below, then they probably will not be able to understand. You can choose how much to share with each person based on their experience and response. I still favor hearing OR's opinion, though. :)
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OR:
Good Morning:
Ah, the residual effects of living with an N for so many years. If you stop and think about it N's kept us in line with us questioning our reality or the realness of any given situation. I think after a while you begin to internalize the fact that the mirror image N's give off is not a mirage but a fact.
When you finally dispose of the N and live life on a day to day basis, I think OR it is only going to be natural that you question yourself and the conversations. I'm with the others here, only deal with people who are actually concerned about you. It is easy enough for everyone else to say "Oh just ignore him" or "You know that this is just a conversation you are repeating that you heard from him". Deprogramming yourself is not going to happen overnight from those internalized tapes and conversations.
I was able to get past it somewhat by just dealing with the here and now. Is this real or isn't it? Limiting my email time and lack of opportunity time with N also helped. It just happens gradually over time the reality you are now living replaces the internalized brainwashing that has occurred.
You are doing a marvelous job of starting over. Just give yourself the leeway necessary to keep on keeping on. Limit the "opportunities" of the N as much as you can. You will not be able to completely get rid of him because of your D, but you can minimize his opportunities with you.
Much love,
Patz
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OR:
Read your post from the other thread on the divorce papers. My thougts and prayers are with you. Please keep us all posted on how things are going.
Love again,
Patz
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hi OR,
How do you know the people who said this to you aren't N's? :D
My suggestion is choose your audience with discernment. Some people are more "with it" than others. I wouldn't share personal stuff with people who are ignorant. They'll just add to the problem. I'm glad you have this group who understands.
Good luck with the divorce. I'm glad you'll be free of that loser.
bunny
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Oh, thought of something else that may or may not help you, OR--
When I started realizing that my family was pretty nutty, as had been my very-N exboyfriends (some of whom it took me years to get over), then I started talking about it with my friends.
In the course of that I realized that some of my friends either were themselves N or were fatally attracted to N's in a way that made them really blind! They were either really dismissive, or worse encouraged me to "forgive" the N behavior and "get over it" and "realize everyone has problems." Now, with some perspective, I am realizing why this is so: I picked them because I could relate to them. So of course I was around folks with my same blind spots and inability to really look things square in the face as I had had.
Sometimes growth is lonely :( The good thing has been that every bit of emptiness left by my reducing time with those friends has been filled with new friendships or renewed friendships with people I had forgotten about or lost touch with (perhaps because they weren't feeding my need to ignore my issues). And I made good use of the quiet space left by not having people tell me how to feel! I figured out how I myself feel.
I have no idea if this applies to you, OR. It's just another thing to keep in mind. My new motto is to talk to and spend time with people who run their lives in a way that I admire and trust.
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Thank you all for responding, I already feel better.
V,
I just think it's easier for people outside the situation to see when the N is being ridiculous! That's why I like this board-- I can repeat something an N in my life said, and get back a lot of disbelief and "wow, that is amazing" and "don't let it bother you" and etc.
The big thing is the nonverbal part of what the non-Ns are saying to you
I think this is so true. I wish I could meet you all some day.
sometimes the simple looks from those that don't truley understand, lacks the healing I get from the board.
I try and picture what each of you must look like, trying to picture a human by the words they use is difficult. I guess looks are not important just funny how your mind tries to picture love and kindness and what it looks like in the human face and eyes.
Bunny, I am so spooked about an N, I see a good looking guy and I want to run the other way. I hear a comment that sounds N , I want to just get run so fast. I have learned alot about how to deal with them. Im learning about their weak areas and how to go for what makes them feel insecure so they will run away. I will gain some power over this and use it in my upcoming Divorce. Some of the other threads have some great insite on dealing with the N's.
How do you know the people who said this to you aren't N's?
Im surrounded with N's in my family. I get this type of comments from my family and hearing it now from my Hs family. They are helping me but may not fully understand. They want me to be confident and I don't always come across as such.
Long: I think this is a great answer. I will try and weave my comments in while making note, a very small note, what the N is saying. I like that.
This is something living with an N can eliminate from your life. Your my hero Long, thanks.
As for a better response? I believe that most people you encounter are more interested in what OR has to say. I know I am, though I do enjoy the dark humor of comments on "The Most N Thing Ever Said" thread.
Guest :I will take this in consideration, its a great point. My sister and his brother have both said this one several times. This one gets me sometimes, I feel like they look at me as insecure about myself.
I don't always feel like this about myself but when I hear it I start to think it.
I don't know sometimes how I feel but insecure is some one who could be mean because they are insecure. I'm not mean, not a bully, but always found myself sticking up for the underdog. Not afraid of the bully.
what you need is others standing behind you, either directly (as in an office bully situation) or emotionally. A lot of the time, the people who are encouraging you to "stand up to" someone are really stirring the pot, and instigating, and they get some kind of entertainment from watching other people fight. Watch out for these clowns, they are incredibly destructive, and most people don't recognize them.
My H just e-mailed me, I responded with "got your e-mail," and give me your attorneys name.
He is telling me to change my married name back to my maden name.
How he is a nice guy and everyone thinks so.
Im working on responding to the court papers. My SIL is helping me and she has a lawyer friend calling us back.
I was able to get past it somewhat by just dealing with the here and now. Is this real or isn't it? Limiting my email time and lack of opportunity time with N also helped. It just happens gradually over time the reality you are now living replaces the internalized brainwashing that has occurred
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Hi OR
One thing that does inflame me, and I'll try to keep that off to the side enough, is when people encourage you to stand up for yourself. A lot of the time, what you need is others standing behind you, either directly (as in an office bully situation) or emotionally. A lot of the time, the people who are encouraging you to "stand up to" someone are really stirring the pot, and instigating, and they get some kind of entertainment from watching other people fight. Watch out for these clowns, they are incredibly destructive, and most people don't recognize them.
(((((OR)))))
Gee, I just realized this could be really confusing. I didn't mean that people on this board are troublemakers. I meant the kind of people who won't look you in the eye when you're talking about the N, the kind of people who keep a fight going at the office by carrying tales back and forth. They just like to watch other people fight, and they aren't really trying to help at all.
If someone HERE says 'stand up to him' they have a good reason, and they will stand behind you. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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OR:
I still have this problem:
I see a good looking guy and I want to run the other way. I hear a comment that sounds N , I want to just get run so fast. I have learned alot about how to deal with them. Im learning about their weak areas and how to go for what makes them feel insecure so they will run away.
Somehow after 5 years I have not gotten past "editing" what people say to me. Am I being paranoid or what? Especially with men. It can be even the non-verbal messages that they send. This is the residual damage I still deal with after the N. At what point in time does this become pathological in me? I am sure everyone has N tendencies, it just having been burned so bad that I guess I am just hyper about it.
There is one particular gentlemen that goes to the same gym as I do. Every time he comes in all the women just roll their eyes in disgust. He is such an N. The way he walks, talks, everything..........so it is just not me. Sometimes I feel really damaged for future relationships because of my attitude toward this "editing" problem. Am I crazy for feeling this way? Patz
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A lot of the time, what you need is others standing behind you, either directly (as in an office bully situation) or emotionally. A lot of the time, the people who are encouraging you to "stand up to" someone are really stirring the pot, and instigating, and they get some kind of entertainment from watching other people fight. Watch out for these clowns, they are incredibly destructive, and most people don't recognize them.
one of my friends commented 'they make the bullets then get you to fire them'!
It just came to my mind reading that.
That boss was a n or sociopath too.
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Patz, :
Sometimes I feel really damaged for future relationships because of my attitude toward this "editing" problem. Am I crazy for feeling this way? Patz
Am I going to go crazy for keeping the thoughts of protecting myself from merging with an N. God please send in angles to keep the N's far away.
If I do encounter them I think I would be like a deer in the head lights.
My friend just now e-mailed me this note as I was writing this message, I had just asked God to send in angles, this is the jest of the story:
God didn't promise days without pain, laughter without sorrow,sun without rain, but He did promise strength for the day, comfort for the tears, and light for the way.
Read this line very slowly and let it sink in...
If God brings you to it, He will bring you through it.
After reading her message, I think for me it comes back to balance. My thoughts need to balance out the bad things in my life. It becomes such a challenge when the N has life so unbalanced.
Maybe as I grow away from the drama, I will learn how to see the positive reasons behind my life for the past 26 years. I have gone through the marriage, now the fall out is about to hit me.
As I will no doubt encounter many N's, I do need to learn placing stronger boundries.
I will not have an Unbalanced N, be in charge of my bullet making.
to do this without taking the boundries (bullets)
to an unbalanced, unhealthy level, I could get a clean shot at making my point. I want to make a point, a very sharp point.
Wrtie:
one of my friends commented 'they make the bullets then get you to fire them'!
I have been reading some of the web sites on Child custody.
It sounds like I need to be very careful how I present the Idea of my H being an N. I could be looked at as being only bitter about my H and his behavior.
He must be reading this stuff himself. He keeps telling me no matter what I say, that Im bitter. I could tell him it's a beautiful day and he would come back with don't be so bitter.
Got to go it's late OR
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Hey OR and Patz,
You guys wrote,
Bunny, I am so spooked about an N, I see a good looking guy and I want to run the other way.
I see a good looking guy and I want to run the other way.
Not all of us Errol flynn types are Ns you know. :P :?
OR,
It sounds like I need to be very careful how I present the Idea of my H being an N.
I don't know family court but I do know court. If you sound credible and you have documentation of your positions you will be believed. Didn't you say you had a diagnosis the guy was NPD on your other thread?
Praying for you OR, and glad to hear you keeping the faith. :wink: :D
mudpup
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OR,
If your husband behaves in court the way he does most of the time, you won't have to say anything.
bunny
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OR,
It sounds like I need to be very careful how I present the Idea of my H being an N.
I don't know family court but I do know court. If you sound credible and you have documentation of your positions you will be believed.
hi guys gals and all,
i know you are being encouraging but please, this is very dangerous to say. it just isnt true. im involved in nation-wide research on family court right now and there are major systemic problems that lead to heavy prejudice against women in abuse situations.
a study done by the national judges association has found (i can get stats for all this) that in 70% of cases where abuse is alleged, and the abuser asks for =full custody= he *will* get it. non-abusers are much more likely to agree to joint arrangements that are not exclusionary of the mothers rights. abusers typically ask for the mothers rights to be stripped, as a method to retain control, and they frequently acheive it.
the reasons for this is that abusers frequently have more monetary resources; they are better manipulators and liars; they tend to 'look good' in siutations where they need to impress people; the target is often judged as hysterical or emotionally unstable (usually as a result of enduring abuse) and there is still a great deal of prejudice against the testimony of women and children as opposed to men.
also, there is a judicial assumption that allegations of abuse raised in the context of custody disputes are LIKELY TO BE FABRICATED as a tactic by the mother. this has not ever been proven to be the case, but it is the -assumption- that judges are trained to use when they decide custody cases.
judges and others in the family court setting are -not- trained to identify abuse of any sort and are very prone to completely ignore such allegations and blame the mother for lying or being vindictive and she will actually end up being punished for it.
therefore, unless the abuser is completely indegent or so mentally ill that he is incoherent, there is a significant risk that the mothers testimony will be not only disbelieved but actively ignored and not admitted as evidence, becuase it will be judged to be a 'tactic'.
-after- you have lost everything is not the best time to find all this out. i can provide info to back all this up. family court is a rattlesnake that hides its fangs..... its very dangerous to underestimate.
not trying to have a soapbox moment here, but this is a serious issue and i know a lot here are dealing with it. it -is- very possible to succeed in family court..... especially if the offender is really off his rocker and cant pull it together enough to look good in front of the judge.. and if hes got no money.. but if he is any kind of actor, or has any sort of resources.... family court is -notorious- for not protecting women and children from abuse. this is not to be depressing. this is for safety.
take care all....
anna
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Anna,
The documentation I was talking about was not simply abusive e-mails. As I recall OR had mentioned having a clinical diagnosis of NPD for her husband. That seems fairly hard to ignore, even in family court..
Besides she doesn't seem to have a choice. She's going to court, he already served her.
mud
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OR! Good to hear from you. My checking in has been spotty...
I thought I knew what you were talking about right away with this. (maybe not?)
I remember when I was in 7th grade and a group of girls (one in particular) had decided to make my life miserable, and someone said to me (like it was so very simple) "why don't you turn around, go right up to her and tell her to F Off!"
Well, heck, if I could have done that, she would never have picked me for her victim in the first place!
Now I still find it hard to just send the emails/make calls that I must to my ex that I KNOW will cause a ridiculous amount of flak....over the top, defensive stuff that still makes me sick after all this time.
"Just send it" some might say.....well, I have to consult my lawyer, and then my kids and then my lawyer and and and....soooo
I just don't share all that much with people anymore. He is ridiculous, I am moving away, emotionally, from this conflict with him and talking about his ongoing nastiness bores me to tears and /or puts me in a bad mood. Then I just figure that's his negative energy again, seeping over into my life...just the way he likes it!
I have only a few friends anymore that I will share his garbage with. Why? Because some people don't want to see me in a struggle, some have no real idea what it is I deal with, and maybe don't really want to know. I don't resent them, I just figure they don't know enough, or care enough or perhaps they have enough of their own stuff to deal with for me to spend any more time explaining myself.
Listen, OR, you have enough to deal with right now, than to worry what anybody's "problems" with your problems are. If they say, "oh, just tell him off... etc", say, "thank you" or some other benign comment.. IF they really care, you will know and you will feel it. Otherwise, just mentally cross them off your list of supporters and talk about the weather next time you see them.
I had to do this with one of my sisters. Dont' know if it's jealousy, (HUH?), Narcissistic tendencies (she does express "understanding" at times with my ex's positions) or what...all I know is it feels bad. So I won't do it anymore. "How's your weather?" is pretty much it.
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Hi, Anna. you were posting when I was. Can't agree with you more. It is scary, OR, and my fantasy would be that all these N men and child users would stand up in a court and be stripped down to thier core meanness and have to face justice for all they have done!
My experience with family court is not that at all! Children and women have an implied disadvantage in family court. This is just because of what Anna described. Anna, you have summed up exactly what my attorney has been seeing...all family law attorneys see this. Doesn't mean it will happen, but there is a game there, and trying to "expose" an N would be the fodder for the fire in these judges eyes.
Let him expose himself, don't put your energy there.....let your daughter have a voice. Focus on your daughter and not the crazy man.....
OR: getting a good lawyer in this area will definately help. Mia has some experience with looking good for the courts, maybe she could weigh in here. Don't get scared.....just keep focused on what you want for yourself and your daughter,. it will come! You have come sooo far.. it will all go well!
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Mud, and Anna,
Yes I do have a medical evaluation, stating self absorbed-Narrsstic,
along with some other abnormal emotional problems.
He is also been on Morphine and a list of other drugs.
He would not go with me no matter how many times I begged him to speak with the doctor regarding his problems.
He does not know I have this report. I have only recently discovered the meaning of some the findings.
Best I can tell it would be better to state the facts as they truely are.
1. He is on massive amounts of Morphine and many other drugs.
I have a few police reports made for him being over medicated , but they are 2 years old.
2. He has no money (he claims) - I know he is asking for help from MOM.
3. If I say nothing but the facts, not Claim I understand what an N is
they can't say I'm having post tramatic symptoms.
I ran away because of the long term abuse. Im the bitter one etc.
4. I'm sticking to CA is too expensive, H has little money to help with the the high cost of his medical bills and I have a better job in Dallas.
5. Family (Aunt and Uncle with cousins my D's age ) is a positive environment, both emotional and financial.
6. His filing for divorce refusing to move with us, was his choice.
He wanted to leave us.
When that didn't work he wanted only me to go.
Leaving the D with him, because of her SSI she gets.
We didn't know about the money so if I was gone, he would be getting her money as long as she stayed with him.
He wanted to leave to dallas we stay in CA, he would have gotten her SSI no one would have ever known about the money.
I called and talked to another para legal today, she was the most helpful.
She wants me to call a number where I could fax over the temp custody papers, I can phone in on most of the proceedings for the next 6 mos or so.
I have a friend to walk my response papers into the court for me.
My SIL must mail them and the ones to the court my friend in CA can drop them off.
She says with his low income and the meds, he would have a problem.
I know he doesn't have any custody papers filed, we went on line to check the file status. He has made a request to have her back in 2weeks
but nothing from a judge. (he is dreaming )
I know the courts are pro both parents at any cost. The News just had a father who killed his 4yr old and then himself. He didn't want the mother to have the little girl if he couldn't have her.
The paralegal said for my BIL to write a paper on his thoughts about his brother's mental state, I will be adding the comment about the gun,
how he was walking in his sleep woke me up to tell me he would shoot me then himself if I went to Dallas. I will add the Medical evaluation, let the judge look at it he's the smart guy, let him tell me what the jargon means.
She thought I should have custody of our D, but the ties to CA were so much longer, that the short time in Dallas will be my big problem.
I would have to get a lawyer in CA to fight for custody.
some of the words in the evaluation are: submerged profile,
(so it could be worse then they are able to determine)
suppressed hostility, passive aggressiveness, repressive denial of interpersonal conflict, exaggeration of physical distress for sympathy, and Narcisistic self absorption. Total Neuroticism,
there are other scales , depression , anxiety (minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory ) all abnormal ,.
Im going to let most of this speak for itself, let the judge read it.
not put a focus on the destruction the N causes, but the fact that his many medical problems and medicine is my understanding, and he would maybe consider my H would need another mental evaluation before he would have joint custody.
Any one have Ideas on the CA courts and which method to pursue, so I don't look like Im the crazy one. I will be reading some the web sites for more information on the best way to present my case.
it's late, thank you for check on me ..OR
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OR:
Sounds like you have all your documentation in line. I agree with you just let the facts speak for themselves. The fact he is almost indigent, and unstable......he will not be able to provide for your D.
When I deal with the state I live in to get benefits for my son, I always have my documentation. There is no argument with the facts. This is really all the "system" cares about........everything else is just your opinion or hearsay to them. Case in point is the recent Terry Schavio (sp) case. The courts only had the physical evidence and best educated physicans reports to go by. The fact that the parents and ex N hated each other was a side light.
I remember when otaining benefits for my son, I went to a specialist in the field of autism, the records of how he was treated etc., there was no argument from that point on. I think the fact you have as much documentation as you have on his medications, his behaviour, his financial positon and his ability to provide an "ongoing" stable environment is all in your favor. Patz
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Hi OR and All:
I am moving away, emotionally, from this conflict with him and talking about his ongoing nastiness bores me to tears and /or puts me in a bad mood. Then I just figure that's his negative energy again, seeping over into my life...just the way he likes it!
This is something vital that Mum has pointed out, not only for emotional health, but for dealing with the system. The facts (without emotional content) are definately what carry the weight.
I will keep praying for you and your D, OR.
GFN
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OR: one thing I do know about CA (I'm not there) is that it is the only state with a presumptive move away right for custodial parents. Since you were not necessarily the "custodial " parent (as you were married) then it is different, but the fact that CA even has that presumptive right says good things for you, I would think. It is being challenged at this time, however, but father's rights people.
Hang in there! You really do have some ammunition, and I think the plan to let someone else fire it off/interpret it is right on.
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OR, Anna --
I read that OR has a medical report on her soon to be X which he is not aware that she has.
I read that this may be a key piece of documentation supporting her.
Question: what does lawyer say about admissability of this information into court? Depending on how the information was obtained, it may or may not be something that can be introduced depending on state laws...
Anna, you probably know more about this, a lot more, than I do. Any thoughts? I would just hate it if OR doesn't take steps to make sure that the most important information she has can actually be used when she needs it....
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Thank you all for the direction on my Divorce.
Storm:
Question: what does lawyer say about admissability of this information into court
I'm still looking for a lawyer from CA.
for now I'm faxing to the court an order to show cause. (for custody )
I will be able to have writen statements from his brother, any medical or police reports, along with the Medical evaluation. I'm saying the way it was obtained, I found it recently along with his other medical reports. He has so many from so many years of his medical issuies. I have several reports showing MRI's, PET scans, Neck fusion, back fusion, Perscriptions a page long,on and on.
MUM, that presumptive right says good things for you,
can you explain this to me, how it would effect the courts perception of my situation, if I look like Im more fit, they would have the option to sway my way.
Thanks for your wonderful response to me. My sister left me a message to call her. I have been avoiding calling her. I love her and I know she wants the best for me. She lives near my mother who I have no communication with. I know what ever I say will be repeated to her.
I know my mother loves to be feeling how she told me so. I don't think much of what she has to say, so I don't care. She is a big time N.
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PATZ: everything else is just your opinion or hearsay to them
I do have a lot of documents, I found important papers and plan on sliding them in when ever I can. My H is hoping I'm going to spill my guts get emotional but I won't need to I'ts on paper. I hope the judge will not block the documents as they are for the saftey of the whole family.
I know how he was going to leave us and come to Dallas, thinking he would start over. I did send him one e-mail to let him know I would have no mercy on him. After he made the request to make her come back to CA before school is out, expecting her to enroll in school again.
I was told the papers have not been review yet until after I respond, so he is just blowing smoke.
I have lots of paper work to do. will check in later, appreciate your thoughts. OR
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OR, Anna --
I read that OR has a medical report on her soon to be X which he is not aware that she has.
I read that this may be a key piece of documentation supporting her.
Question: what does lawyer say about admissability of this information into court? Depending on how the information was obtained, it may or may not be something that can be introduced depending on state laws...
Anna, you probably know more about this, a lot more, than I do. Any thoughts? I would just hate it if OR doesn't take steps to make sure that the most important information she has can actually be used when she needs it....
well.... hmmmm... funny you should ask becuase i was just thinking about this... i really dont want to burden this list with a bunch of offtopic info. and, i definitely dont want to be overly negative. BUT i believe there is less concern as to whether the report is admissable, then whether it will be admitted and then ignored or dismissed... its very good, he has such a history of threatening people though.
here is what im finding.
i can name at least five women i personally know, two who have written books about it, who have lost custody to -documented- sexual abusers...... some of those men had criminal records for pedophilia... many had extensive documentation, from all types of experts... there are hundreds of such cases, in every state...
very very often what would be considered by normal people to be very compelling evidence, will go totally ignored in the family court setting. family court does not have the same standards of evidence as criminal court. there is much greater leeway afforded to judges in how to interpret and use evidence offered them. and they have very minimal training in this type of stuff.
even if you can get your evidence admitted, often the abuser will try to neutralise it by aggressively shifting the focus onto the mother and try to make her appear 'worse'. (worse than a pedophile/?) its at this time that he will say, her 'accusations' of his 'danger to kids' is a tactic and shes making it up. this is surprisingly easy to accomplish, because frankly most judges arent too educated on abuse and n's. if the judge gets confused and think its a 'he-said/she-said', a lot of times benefit goes against the mother, becuase she 'appears' more unstable than he does in the court situation. this is just flat prejudice beucase almost always women will be perceived as more emotional, and therefore less believable, during the few hours the judge has to observe them. i think we all know how well n's can hide their true colors, and shift blame to the target.
the fact that OR seems to have more money than her ex, will probably do her much more good in the long run than this report, which is extremley likely to be challenged and minimised anyway. (its still very good she has it....). just, i would not plan to rely on it tooo heavily.
now in my case, which was in california, i repeatedly told everyone what my father was up to, and i had plenty of evidence to back it, but nobody considered it the slightest bit important. i was actually advised repeatedly not to bring it up, and told it was 'irrelevent' and 'fighting below the belt'. this is common and serves again to deny the judge ability to see the reality of the abuser. they seem to see it as character assassination, rather than evidence of personality disorder. otoh, nobody stops them from assasinating the woman's character!
additionally, i had *piles* of hard, cold, 'evidence'. school records. doctors records. dental records. therapy records. this was public documentation from schools and hospitals that anyone could obtain and see, which i thought should be more than enough to substantiate the things i said and claimed.
i had myself evaluated personally at a value of $1000, which the evaluator (with 30 years experience) did for -free-, because she believed in my case so much. i worked very very hard to build a solid, respectable case with what seemed to me to be inarguably clear 'evidence'.
but it meant absolutely -nothing-.
in court, things move -fast-. time is not on your side. they wont sit around to get to the bottom of anything. its easy for them to get stuck on the surface appearance and just 'move things along'. im really hoping that OR's ex will be goofy enough to hang himself in front of the judge. but the man has to -really- be visibly out to lunch in order to be judged negatively. all the woman has to do is cry openly: and it can be all over. (i did not cry in court, btw).
further in our case, our evaluator was not allowed to even testify. this was a professional family evaluator whose sole job was to testify in court about families, and she was not even allowed to give her findings. that was an appealable offense, but since i didnt have money to appeal it, it effectively didnt matter. thats why sometimes it comes down to how much money you can spend.
the only 'evidence' entered against me, in comparison, was -one- drawing my daughter had made, of her imaginary friend at the time, a dragon named frisky.
one -drawing-.
this they claimed was 'evidence' of the fact that she was mentally ill herself, from having contact with me. that was the only peice of evidence they entered.
instead they spun a very dramatic tale about her 'malnutrition' - but they showed no medical records. i had medical records from the time of her birth, but they were just ignored. they waxed eloquent about her 'dental problems' - but they showed no dental records. i had dental records showing completely normal dental health, but also - ignored. they practically cried about how i was 'neglecting her schooling'. i brought piles of report cards that showed straight a's. they accused me of forging them!. they had -nothing- to back up what they said. i had piles to disprove it.
but they were believed, becuase they were able to *shift* the focus, onto 'me and my problems', spin a good story, and look good doing it. judges like everyone want their job easy. picking apart messy details isnt easy. they dont understand abuse, and if a man looks good for that couple of hours, and tells a good story, which often n's can capably do, it is way too frequently enough. 'reports' can be a dime a dozen to a judge.
we just hear this all over and over and over again. i cant tell you how many women i hear this from. this is not to be depressing or negative in -any- way. i have faith in OR and i know she will do well, and she has a lot of important stuff on her side, mainly his history of openly threatening people and his lack of funds.
i think she is very smart to get together all the evidence she can about his instability, his history of threatening people, his drug use, and be ready to present it, not in the context of bringing him down but in the context of what would be best for the childs health. but what we are seing is that being successful is often a lot more about staying power, resources, and having a really good lawyer than any kind of actual evidence or anything else that makes any sense to normal humans......
this is california NOW's site, which talks some about the system in california. theyve done a lot of research on it, becuase they got so many phone calls complaining.
<http://www.canow.org/issues/family.html>
this is *not* meant to seem negative!!!! i just dont like to see people walking into lions dens basically wearing a big steak on their head, and not say anything..
its just information. use or ignore at will.
take care all
anna
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Anna, you are a gift from god.
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Anna, thank you so much for your valuable insights.
I understand about the need to tread carefully.
I have e-mails do I show them?
I have many medial reports showing his many surgeries, and meds he is on. He has been taken to the hospital for over medication and mixing them. That was over 1 year ago.
How do I say the effects on our family without making it sound like a tactic?
The Mental problems compound an already bad situation.
Him staying behind in CA , not able to afford to live.
Will a Judge say he can do what ever he wants stay where he can't afford to live making me pay him support, providing him travel or for our D to travel to see him? Im asking for supervised visits and he would come here to see her.
I know you may not know this, but he is not willing to help out in any direction.
The Judge may not see the true picture and award him for being hurt not able to work. He will look good in court bring his cane, I hope it will back fire on him.
He just sent me another e-mail telling me if someone wishes him evil it will come back to them 3 times more. How he only wants the best for us and for me to drop the hate. I have not responded to him with more than got your e-mail, the last several I don't respond at all.
I received a note from him asking to let him know when our D will be back in CA.
I'm sending the papers for response and hoping I have them filed correctly. I have no lawyer yet, looking for one in CA.
He thinks I will send her back before a court order. Im going to let him think what ever, he will be getting the OSC first part of the week.
I dont talk about any of this with our D.
He sent her a shirt and a small purse today.
Got to go Tanks Anna and let me know any thoughts you have
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Anna, I appreciate your candor. OR, you need to know this stuff because sometimes there is no rhyme or reason in family court, not because you won't do well.....most likely you will.
I was up against a lawyer who had a relationship with the judge, most of them do.....and there's nothing you can do about it...don't waste time on that unless you know your lawyer knows your assigned judge is trouble. But the biggest thing, which no doubt worked against Anna as well, was that I was up against a really big N with deep pocketsweho was out to punish me. Your ex doesn't have the deep pockets, so I think that's in your favor. It does come down to money. My case was already appealed and was HALF reversed....I couldv'e taken it further up with another appeal....but I don't have the money, and my ex knows this (and he's trying to further that situation by taking me back to court now to reduce child support....almost in half!!! What a jerk!)
OR, I am really not sure the relocation stuff applies to someone who is not even divorced yet. All I know is if I were to have been in California when I asked to relocate, I'd be gone by now. IN CA, the parent with primary custody is presumed to know what is in the best interests of the child, even if that includes moving. Makes total sense. If you knew my case, you would say, hey, that's sounds reasonable and very compelling....but I am still prevented from moving, so go figure. The family courts are a mess, and right and wrong rarely matter. I'm the least cynical person you will ever meet....and I believe that one now.
Look up thelizlibrary.org.........maybe you will find help there (you will see a lot about which Anna speaks).
((((((OR)))))))) (((((((((Anna)))))))))))
We'll be ok, sisters.
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((((((((((Anna)))))))))
((((((((((OR))))))))))
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Anna and OR:
It continually amazes me the lengths Ns will go to to "win". Even in the face of what is good for your childen. It is not about the children at all it is about "winning" and being "right".
This is way out of my league inasmuch as I have never been involved in a custody battle and have only seen it through my girlfriend's eyes. Just take care of yourself so you can continue this battle. My heart and prayers are with both of you.
Patz
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I have e-mails do I show them?
I have many medial reports showing his many surgeries, and meds he is on. He has been taken to the hospital for over medication and mixing them. That was over 1 year ago.
How do I say the effects on our family without making it sound like a tactic?
The Mental problems compound an already bad situation.
hi OR. sorry it took me so long to get back to you. we can go off list with more of this if you want to. but to answer these questions for you, this is what I think.
first of all, i want to explain why this seems like such an issue for me, just beucase, im sure people are wondering why im making such a big deal out of it.. very quickly, im an advocate... right before all of this happened, i was getting ready to go to law school, so that I could advocate for women who had been in abuse situations. (and were not believed or listened to :)
needless to say, that would have severely challenged my fathers need to define me as a failure, so im pretty sure thats part of his crusade against me, is to prevent me from getting to school, which so far, he is doing. but he cannot stop me from being an advocate. my focus has switched to this issue becuase, after he took my kid, and i found out what a mess things were in the family court system, it just seemed kind of appropriate.
additionally becuase he also took me away from -my- mother by manipulating the system, (which he did) it is an issue that is -very- very near and dear to my heart. i feel i need to help change things, before he takes my granddaughter, you know.
OR national organisation for women let me to chair a task force on it; and myself and other task force chairs from other states recently got together and lobbied at the national level, to form the first functioning national advisory committee on family law.
(so cant say i havent been channeling SOME of this stuff!) we're in the process of doing a nationwide courtwatch right now, and we are learning a LOT in the process. ive talked with women from all across the country and heard a -lot- of stories!
SO all that being said, that is why im talking about all this, the way that I am. its an issue ive been learning a lot about, lately.
with all that said, this is what i would tell you: besides looking at those websites, which are the foremost people in the field right now, and learning what you can from them, my number one thing to say would be, GET THE RIGHT LAWYER. it will solve 9/10 of your problems at once.
mum's totally right, its a game, the lawyers and judges all know each other and many of them are abusers and n's themselves. you need a lawyer that knows how to manipulate all that in your favor.
the best advice i can give, is look for a lawyer like you would look for a plastic surgeon. ask everybody you can, for -references-, someone with a good track record, of doing well for women.
the right lawyer will know the tricks and games, and be able to use the evidence you have in the proper way.
theres a million attorneys in los angeles..... the worst thing a lot of people do is kind of assume that each of those lawyers will be equally talented and committed and skilled and invested, and its sooooo not true. a very very small percentage has the inclination, skill, talent, training to do well in cases like this. so, you have to search them out. if you are able to choose the correct lawyer, they will know how to use what you have, in the proper way.
thats my honest best advice I can give...... there are different ways you can ask around to find a lawyer that will know what to do, with what you have.
Him staying behind in CA , not able to afford to live.
Will a Judge say he can do what ever he wants stay where he can't afford to live making me pay him support, providing him travel or for our D to travel to see him? Im asking for supervised visits and he would come here to see her.
The Judge may not see the true picture and award him for being hurt not able to work. He will look good in court bring his cane, I hope it will back fire on him.
i guess we can take this to private mail to to go into more detail if you need to.
im sure he will give a sob story and try to make you pay for everything. a lot of women get stuck paying for their ex. competent lawyers are out there. the women's groups may have information on finding one.
im not trying to sound like a commercial for lawyers but, its true that you wouldnt get plastic surgery from just anyone.. its good to be just as choosy with your attorney if you can...
i know you are looking for your lawyer right now. finding one with a track record of success in womens issues, who knows these mazes and has been through them before, and been successful, i think would be a real good place to start..
here are those sites again -
<http://www.kourtsforkids.org/>
<http://www.mothers-of-lost-children.com/>
<http://www.protectiveparents.com/>
<http://www.smalljustice.com/>
<http://www.canow.org/issues/family.html>
theres a ton of links on them and all kinds of very good advice.. it should definitely put you ahead of the curve that most people go into this with..
you can talk with me privately, if theres anything more specific i can help with.
having the right lawyer is like a key for a lock. your info is the lock. without the right key (lawyer) the lock will not be able to work for you. with the right key, your info will have a much better chance.
ok... good luck.... im wishing you well! i guess i will turn on my private messages thing in case anyone wants to do that. i havent had it on til now.
very best of luck OR. ttys
Anna
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Anna and OR:
It continually amazes me the lengths Ns will go to to "win". Even in the face of what is good for your childen. It is not about the children at all it is about "winning" and being "right".
My heart and prayers are with both of you.
thank you Patz. that helps me. its very very sad the way some people are. thanks a lot for the wishes. :}
Anna
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Anna:
I read your post to OR. You sound very focused on what your doing as an advocate. I am very thankful there are people like you willing to "stand up" and monitor what is going on in the family courts. You are absolutely right about it being a "good old boy" thing with the judges and laywers. Most are Ns as you pointed out. I was an advocate for disabled children in Alabama and the same is true with Central Office personnel and school systems. I always went in asking for the moon and knew what I was willing to settle for. Do you think this is the same with the court systems?
At any rate please continue to do what you do because it is important. I can see the genesis of your discipline is at the behest of your N father. This really must grate on his nerves with you being "so in his face" with your advocacy. What a laugh. He gets to think about this every day while he watches you. Poetic justice at work my dear.
Keep on keeping on.
Patz
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Hi OR and Everyone:
OR: How are you doing through all of this? Hope you're sailing on down that river!!!
I would add to Anna's advice, which I think is right on the mark, that what might help you too, is to learn the laws that apply to your case. Look up your Family Law Act, if there is one and see if you can't get some understanding of your own rights within the law, the judges options, the rules of evidence, etc.
My experience is not going to give lawyers a good name, so I won't go there. Necessity and my own desire to understand and persevere caused me to get as much info as I could, re the laws and my situation, and make use of them. It did pay off in a very big way but it was hard work and took time. Maybe this is/is not feasible for you?
Anna: Good for you for channelling and making a difference!! Bravo!!
No matter what your father thinks, the world is a better place because of you. :D
GFN
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Anna, Patz, GFN,
Thank you all for giving me hope, in a desparate situation.
Anna, your pulling at my heart strings, thinking how you have taken a negative part of your life to such a positive level.
I want to make my D feel safe. we expect our parents, doctors, lawyers, judges, spouse, etc, to make us feel safe.
When this fails to happen our whole world is shaken.
I don't feel safe with my H, I worry if a judge will grant me saftey for my family. Doctors can't make me feel safe about an unsafe situation, because of the privacy laws.
Saftey, it may not cost any money, it demands some understanding how to achieve, but all of these important people that affect our lives have difficulty making it a possiblity for eachother.
I'm not asking for much more than peace of mind. I think if the N's in the world could start with a simple idea it would make life less stressful.
Enough about it, I faxed over my OSC, still waiting for them to get me a telephone hearing date. earliest time would be at the end of June.
My H really thinks my D will be at his door soon. He tells me how he has doctor appointmens to schedule and he needs to know now. I just ignore him.
My D wants to have an "end of school" party and making plans.
She wants Nepolian Dynomite theme, Tater tots, party stuff along with the movie.
I mentioned my H wants her to come back there to live, she said no way.
I don't talk about the legal things going on. I know the judges expect mediation between the parents. I sent attachments related to money,
an e-mail saying he was left broken, house bound and homeless.
My Friend tells me she saw him riding his bike.
On his web site he mentions he goes to the beach and rides his bike.
He sends our D shirts from the beach so I tend to believe he is up and about.
I will be doing some more research on my options. thank you all
Thanks OR
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Hi OR:
Glad you're doing your best to keep plugging along at this. Things will get better! They will, OR!
You've got the meat of your statement for the judge (the essentials) right here, in this thread.
You have a perfect right to not only want but to cry out/make clear you must have/require..............
safety for yourself and your daughter. Period.
1. One of the driving forces behind you leaving your husband, I think this was in one of you original posts to the board............
He threatened to kill you with a gun.
You MUST MAKE IT CLEAR TO THE COURT THAT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE YOUR DAUGHTER WILL BE SAFE IN THE CARE OF SOMEONE WHO MAKES SUCH THREATS. YOU BELIEVE HE IS CAPABLE OF SUCH AN ACT AND IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ASK THE COURT TO PROTECT YOUR CHILD.
Supervised access will be safer. This is what she needs.
2. I mentioned my H wants her to come back there to live, she said no way.
If there is any way possible for her to tell the judge this herself, it will carry much more weight. This could be in the form of a letter, in person, on video, preferably more than one media. Backed up BIG TIME by objective adult witnesses (counsellor, minister, lawyer, teacher, youth group leader, etc, as many as possilbe).
You MUST STRESS THAT IT IS THE COURT'S RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE AND PROTECT THE RIGHT OF SAFETY AND WELFARE OF YOUR CHILD, WHICH INCLUDES HER EMOTIONAL WELFARE AND THESE ARE THE TWO THINGS YOU ARE MOST CONCERNED WITH AND INSIST ON. (Her safety and welfare).
Due to her age, she can have a strong voice. She is not an infant or a toddler or a little child. She is an adolescent with her own level of maturity, her own wishes and feelings, which must not be discounted or that in itself ....would be abuse.
Hope this helps a little OR. I know all the N stuff seems essential but if you ask me it isn't the deciding evidence. His threatening behaviour and her wants and needs are the two most compelling issues, imo. All behaviours that indicate he is unstable, unsafe, capable of violence, and yes......show clearly that he lies in documents......are good evidence. All those who can varify these behaviours are important too.
Hang in there OR. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
GFN
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OR:
I can only second what GFN has written. You will make it. Just keep on keeping on.
My thoughts and prayers are with you and your D. You are doing a great job.............you only have to look at your D and know that. Patz
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Anna, I wanted to let you know I am just sick to read about the injustice to the mothers in our country.
The stories I have read on the links you have provided make me sick and afraid for my D. She woke up today having dreams about what school she was going to, rather or not she was in CA.
I have sent in my response to the divorce, showing my income. He claims only 700.00. He has received it and replies to me, he will send them to his legal aid lawyer.
In the response I let them know I did believe he had been receiving other income not reported on the divorce papers. He wants me to pay for everything and expects me to pay for flights for our D to CA.
I have a letter from his brother explaining how we made arrangements
over a 1yr ago to plan the move here, but H decided not to come.
My interpetation of the move was my H for the past 5 years on SSI little money, forced us to move where he could get help from his Doctor brother, a safety net for the family and my transfer to our Corp. office to
help with his negative income. CA cost of living in out of my reach.
His future health problems with RA,MS, doomed to a wheelchair on heavy medications and would not be able to take of himself.
would make all this on my shoulders.
Now the reality is he received a back settlement a few months before the move and wanted my D and I to stay in CA. He wanted to take his money move to Dallas start over. His brother said not without his family.
My H then tells me he would shoot me then himself if I move to Dallas.
He is on lots of strong Meds and an N to boot, He now has this money but claims he has none. I have now said he has lied to the court but wonder if I'm looking negative to have metioned it.
He has also lied about never having a custody case, when 10 years ago he was on Disability and meds and tried to take our daughter out of state to his mothers. He had locked me out of the house and took our D.
His mother helped me with finding him and the police brought her back to me.
I kicked him out for a few months while he was left homeless to stay with an outreach for 2months. He was taking too much meds appeared to have a drug problem. He got a job soon after and until 5years ago had been working.
I was going to file for Divorce 10yrs ago but had him sign a paper I would have physical and leagal custody of our D until 18teen I have a copy and attached it to the income statement.
This Document was so old and he has been in the household, so not sure about how legal and binding it is. They make you mediate with eachother but nothing is forever. I have only attached this without explaining the details. He knows the datails and I never talked about the form until now. I guess I believed it was to old and truely wanted to make our relationship work. I didn't tell him I still had this so he would be off guard.
(This agreement to have him back in the house was 10years ago before I knew he was N)
He did sign it and there is a part on one of the current Divorce forms that ask about any reason to believe he would ever take her out of state or at any other time as there been a case for custody filed. He has said NO.
On his web site I read where he would take his money to another country and want to put our D in an american school. This may be something in the future when she goes to collage, I don't know. He does have money and if he thinks he must show it even after he lied, then I may take a chance he would have the ability to take her back to CA.
He got this form and wrote me saying
"OK guess this means she won't be coming to town until Nov.,
( the scheduled time of the hearing for divorce)
" Give him 5 weeks notice when she comes to town."
He would be asking for custody. From reading these web sites all he needs to do is ask and he may just get it, with me paying for it all.
I will be sending over the Order to show cause and would request total custody based on my income, I however made a fuss that he was hiding money so I won't be subject to future spousal support, having to pay for her visits even tho at the last minute he said for me to go but without our D.
Claiming he had money hidden may have been the wrong thing. I want him to answer for his lies, but if I don't contest and only get him to be honest that he would not be the better parent, let him keep his money because he is such an N and all this fuss about our D is to get her SSI.
I would rather have her with me and struggle but may be subject buy the courts to pay him when he does have his settlement money.
He decided not to come to Dallas not that I wanted to leave him at the time.
I expected to divorce here in Dallas where he could be near family, we would have the ability to have joint custody, thinking we could both afford to live and he would have family support.
If mediaiton is without lawyers, why get a lawyer to take the little money I have.
Mediation is a must, and is provided with the OSC.
He shows he lies. I have lots to prove his lies, however the judges have a short review without putting overwhelming evidence infront of the judge, I must be selective.
I think he should be supervised but so tossed between the saftey, the alienation of him, the lies and money problems.
I don't know what Im asking you other than from a court viewing at a glance should the lies be brought to the surface?
would I look like the bad guy to review old information.
Showing HIS family supports me and I tried to get us here to keep us somewhat together even pending a divorce once in Dallas.
I didn't know about the money he had and this is why he didn't want to move with his family.
Any advise from all you know would help me on a direction, as I must move quick on this.
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Hi OR:
Maybe Anna will be able to answer your questions better than I. My best guess is to insist on the safety and welfare of your daughter (and yourself) as being priority. If you can prove he has hidden money and expose his lies, it is another strike against him...showing dishonesty, irresponsibility and the fact that he/his word cannot be trusted. I think the fact that he took your child, once before, and the police had to retrieve her should be pointed out to highlight the idea that he could try this again. Keep saying that you want the court to protect your daughter. He is unstable......at the least.
It is scarey to think of the worst things that could happen and maybe it's good that you're doing some of that and making a plan but....the chances are that things will not go that badly and you will get full custody/protection.
Think and believe this will happen. Focus on being very calm and collected and clear with the facts. Do you have a lawyer?
(((((((OR and D))))))
Still praying for you.
GFN
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GFN, You are always so kind to respond.
Today SSI told me my H had written them to hold the SSI payments for our D.
He said he had custody of her he gave them the court REF. number for the Divorce. The courts have nothing from him for custody.
She let me fax her the Prior old custody case papers to her, I had the school resend her enrollment papers. When the OSC comes thru I will send the temp custody papers to her.
The Divorce papers were started a month after we moved here so they needed to make sure she was still here.
The SSI rep told me I would need court orders to know the amount of money my D received.
Today I re-faxed over the OSC, I made the request for an Audit of these payments. I may not ever see any of the money, but I want his lies exposed and accounted for. on OSC I asked that the court would not allow him to hold the account.
I also decided to send a written letter from my SIL, telling them we were planning on the move and he knew about it, but decided not to follow.
I sent a copy of the last print out of the Medications he is taking.
it's a page long with morphone and other strong meds
I sent with the OSC a court form, that asked for any prior custody case
it allowed for a number and name of the court. ( I already sent the actual form with the divorce response )
I decided to leave it with just the number, waiting for the time to go into detail about the police involvement and the fear he may try abduction.
There are more forms for all of this, I don't want to overwhelm the court, just looking for a court date earliest time available is July,
Im asking for a telephone appearance
I have to send my H a copy of everything I sent the court, so I will let him wonder whats coming next.
He left me an e-mail and called our D to tell her how he was going live on WEB radio today; I guess he calls us, hoping we still care. The last thing I want to do is hear him on the radio. WHAT AN N.
I HOPE HE WAS BUSY ALL DAY, TO BUSY TO CARE ABOUT THE CUSTODY PAPERS.
The OSC demands mediation no lawyers for child custody. I don't have the money to spend on a lawyer I won't be able to use in court.
My MIL called my BIL, I had a chance to speak with her, she was very thankful I had stayed married to her son for so long but was happy I left him. His family has been very supportive of me and our D.
Through out the years my H would not let me speak with his family very often. He lied so much I guess he didn't want me to talk with them in fear he would be caught in a lie.
Thanks for your thoughts it helps me just to get another perspective.
OR
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Anna, I wanted to let you know I am just sick to read about the injustice to the mothers in our country.
hi OR..... Ive been thinking about you.... its something, huh? i think its so useful to see what other people have seen and done...... then it isnt such a steep 'learning curve' once you are there. it isnt meant to be disturbing so much as to pre=arm you with knowlege... but, it is disturbing i know.
I agree dont be afraid though.. just be aware...
interestingly, something mudpuppy said really made me think: thers a -reason- why women are so roundly ignored in court - (other than the reasons i know) and i think he struck on it - a lot of men are taught to just tune out anything women say, especially if they have any thought the woman is being 'hysterical' or emotional or any other thing that women are 'supposed' to do. very little makes a woman more emotional than the feeling she is about to lose her child and theres nothing she can do. the only woman that will not get emotional at such a thought is so cold and detached that she probly isnt a good mother anyway! quite a catch-22.
i found that very intersting and i bet thats a big part of why women universally go into court and get the impression that everyone is tuning out everything they say.. i think they -are- tuning out everything they say...... cause of that sexism mudpuppy talked about..... ive heard horrible stories of what court officcials say about mothers behind their backs.. in one place there was a story where the kids would be taken right there in the courtroom, the mother would often dissolve screaming, they had a special cell where they would drag the women till she stopped crying. a -cell-. it was very cold....... that was standard procedure.. so what GFN said was a good thing to remember. (like always :) )
stay -ultra- rational (not saying you arent, just agreeing with GFN) and focused on what you and your daughter want. in California you can be emancipated legally at 14, and the court is -supposed- to take kids opinions into account when they are 12. Im not sure how old she is - I need to read back in these threads again - but if she is 12 she should be able to tell the judge her preference and be considered.
He is on lots of strong Meds and an N to boot, He now has this money but claims he has none. I have now said he has lied to the court but wonder if I'm looking negative to have metioned it.
I really agree with GFN totally.... make up a few simple points and repeat them endlessly.
1) on a lot of medicines (show proof)
2) history of violence and witnessed threats (show proof)
3) you have reason to believe he is unstable (why)
4) you can provide a more stable environment (show proof)
5) your daughter wants to be with you (her statement)
I was going to file for Divorce 10yrs ago but had him sign a paper I would have physical and leagal custody of our D until 18teen
that could be binding! good for you. that would save a lot of trouble. that might be the best thing you have!
they probably will not care that he lied about stuff. they never seem to care about that. its helpful to steer away from anything remotely perceived as 'he/said-she/said'.
He would be asking for custody. From reading these web sites all he needs to do is ask and he may just get it, with me paying for it all.
its so annoying. its so tragic. dog in the manger. theres one thing you could do - it could be in your power to ask that he be subjected to a bunch of evaluations or tests - for drug use, mental stability, etc or other thigns. if you have the ability to require he pass these evaluations and he fails them it could help you. it might be something you could petition for.
If mediaiton is without lawyers, why get a lawyer to take the little money I have.
Mediation is a must, and is provided with the OSC.
as far as i know .. mediation is not always waht you would hope.. when i had mediation it was only one meeting that took less than an hour. they asked what we wanted, saw we didnt agree, wrote that down, and that was it. then we went back to court. so it may not actually address any actual issues. sometimes it is just a formality. dont know if thats what would happen in this case.
I do have to say, it is very very tempting to save money..... but if you can borrow it or scrape it together somehow it could save a lot of trouble in that, if you are not properly represented, <and you are already at some disadvantage not being able to show up in person btw, it would be much better if you could afford somehow to go..>.. lets say he 'wins' the first hearing. then you will be in a position of continuing to fight, which will be much more expensive or impossible in the long run..... believe me i know you cant always get it..... sometimes its just impossible, but it -is- taking a risk, not having yourself represented.
I have lots to prove his lies.....I think he should be supervised but so tossed between the saftey, the alienation of him, the lies and money problems.
judges dislike stuff that appears to be 'he said/she said'. the fact that he is on numerous medications is not up to debate. the fact he threatened all those people is not up for debate. the fact that your daughter will strongly state she prefers to live with you will not be up for debate. it wont look good for him that he lied about stuff but that is more dangerous slipery slope for you since 'lying' is subjective. the judge -may- be more likely to tune out that kind of stuff or hold it against you. i think that is your least powerful ammo right now. judges dont seem to care that men lie. for the same reason that they dont listen to a crying woman. SEXISM!!!
my -guess- is that stuff that is more subjectively provable - and not appearing to be part of anything that was a spousal argument, is -less- likely to be interpreted negatively... ..so it might be good to use the other things first and leave the lying at the bottom of the list.
Showing HIS family supports me and I tried to get us here to keep us somewhat together even pending a divorce once in Dallas.
his family supporting you would be good. you could get notarised statements from everyone perhaps. If you have always been the primary caregiver its unlikely he will be given full custody just becuase he asks for it, if you have custody now, and have pretty much always had custody.........
you have her now, she wants to be with you, that is very good. stick with the fact that she is well adjusted and happy where she is and has a strong desire to stay where her friends and family are and all, and focus on that...............
get your points sorted out and keep pounding them clearly. dont focus too much on the lying id move more towards his history of witnessed behavior and requesting that he be evaluated. those would be my thoughts for now. it might be good to consult someone on how potentially binding that one contract is. if its binding - that could be a real help.
those are my thoughts so far. it might be good to prepare for her needing to visit him and being asked to split the cost. it might be reasonable to just resign yourself to that... in order to get away with primary custody... jsut some thoughts....
thers a site called 'findlaw' im pretty sure whre you can look up laws for yourself on stuff.
well.... hope things are going well..........:}}
sounds like you are doing well getting all the papers filed and stuff. i think you are doing great and staying focused very well.
im keeping my fingers crossed for you guys for sure. im sure you will keep posting progress. :)
Anna
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Hi Anna and OR,
I know of one judge who had an excellent reputation in civil court, but when he got to family court he had the reputation of nearly always siding with the father, supposedly because of some experience he himself had had in a divorce case. Unfortunately the law is sometimes less important than personalities.
A good attorney knows how to push a mother's buttons and make her look emotional and irrational and vindictive when all she is, is distraught she might lose her kids. Being stone faced despite the provocations is what's important. This is also true through all the preliminary stages, before you even get to court as well. Its no guarantee of victory but its better than the alternative.
And sad to say, but there are a large number of women and attorneys who have made it difficult for honest women. A lot of attorneys have made it virtually a standard policy to accuse the father of some type of abuse regardless of whether there is or not. And the man's attorney often comes into court with the same pre emptive charges. So now even courts that were willing to listen are dismissive of actual charges of abuse.
OR,
I don't know if you remember the cop show Dragnet, but Sgt. Joe Friday always said "Just the facts ma'am". And he was a really bad actor so he never smiled or showed emotion.
So, go into court and mediation like Joe Friday. He was a crummy actor but he would have made a good witness. :wink: 8)
mudpup
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Hey MUD and Anna, GFN.
Im still waiting for the court to get with me on a date for the temp custody.
I kept in mind to give the facts with supporting evidence.
Today I received an Insurrance Medical Questionare asking me to give them information regarding My H. I had to change from HMO to PPO
when I moved here to Texas, now they question a recent bill from my H in CA. I added this to the other things I have faxed over.
Some of the questions: Who has custody of the covered child.
Is any one covered by Workers Comp. or Medicare,
What is the Case number and Dates.
These questions allowed me to submitt the Workers Compensation Medical Evaluation. It was the ONLY thing I had showing information they were asking for.
I had thought I was going to wait but wanted to take this as an open invitation to submitt through someone else asking for the information.
I asked the Judge if I could remove my H per his request.
My H said he would be receiving Medicare soon.
In this report my H talks to the examiner.
In his own words the Judge can read that this move to Texas to compensate for his lack of income was not something I made up.
Also, WC means a future settlement of some kind.
Now he can question what he settled for not me saying he received a settlement from A WC case. Now he has dates and names.
In this Evaluation report along with other descriptive words like, passive aggressive, Hypocondria, and other abnormal findings.
I would expect he would now need to review this without me saying
anything regarding Narrsisstic behavior.
Im asking the judge to review the questionare, to remove my H from my insurrance and how must I answer these questions regarding custody in the time frame given.
Later I will be looking into filing papers of possible abduction so he would be posting bond or whatever it takes to assure her safe return.
I got another e-mail from H telling me how happy he is, he will be working for a local radio station. How GOD had a hand in all of this.
I am gald for him and had always supported him. I can't bring myself to respond to him. I hope he keeps busy so he will leave me alone.
He talks about bringing our D out to see the radio station and the cool equipment. How perfect it is for him and his physical limitations.
Anna I know you say to get ready to have our D fly out to CA to see him and accept paying 1/2 the cost. It may be just the way it is.
Later I will be looking into filing papers of possible abduction using the prior CASE from 10yrs ago. he would be posting bond or whatever it takes to assure her safe return.
OR
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OR; glad to see you are still hanging in there. You sound good, strong.
I must have missed something, but what happened ten years ago?
It sounds like you have your ducks in line. Stay focused on what you want, not what you don't want. I think my NOT doing that made a difference in my case....and I lost. At one point I got overwhelmed and so upset that no one was noticing how abusive my ex had been and how TIRED I was of dealing with this.....how I was not going to be intimidated by him any more....ooooh boy. That may have blown it for me. My (inexperienced) attorneys at the time told me: that's good:righteous indignation and all....methinks they did not know what they were talking about!
In the year and a half since that time, I have learned to focus more on what I DO want, rather than what I don't.....and good things have come my way. Probably because most people don't want to deal with someone who is upset!! However justifiable it is!!! You can still be focused on getting what you want.....just no need to be upset. YOU WILL GET IT>
repeat that always to yourself. TRAIN yourself to win.
Do I sound like I am trying to Psych myself up? I am. I head to court this week. I am in a totally different frame of mind than the last time I went to court. I am looking forward to it in a way. "bring it on Sparky!!!"
Hang tough, girl. I hope that what he signed long ago hangs him.....I think that paper might be the "golden ticket".
((((((or))))))))
mum
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Stay focused on what you want, not what you don't want. I think my NOT doing that made a difference in my case....and I lost. At one point I got overwhelmed and so upset that no one was noticing how abusive my ex had been and how TIRED I was of dealing with this.....how I was not going to be intimidated by him any more....ooooh boy. That may have blown it for me. My (inexperienced) attorneys at the time told me: that's good:righteous indignation and all....methinks they did not know what they were talking about!
you sound like you will kick some butt this time! women should get an oscar or an emmy or something, for getting through -this- emotional briar patch.
Probably because most people don't want to deal with someone who is upset!!
that may be true .. but i still think its crap!!!! in other areas of legal pursuit lawyers are trained to understand and predict human nature - as is. in certain situations, reasonable humans will understandably become upset. you would figiure they would understand and predict the human nature of people in these situations, -just- a little more humanely. (but they dont so we have to act againts all human nature)
YOU WILL GET IT>
repeat that always to yourself. TRAIN yourself to win.
Do I sound like I am trying to Psych myself up? I am. I head to court this week. I am in a totally different frame of mind than the last time I went to court. I am looking forward to it in a way. "bring it on Sparky!!!"
im a big fan of mental discipline boy.
i have this vision of you like rocky doing jumpropes and stuff. go go go!!
:twisted:
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OR, I agree with mum and others here to concentrate on what you DO want. You should be prepared and use all evidence and facts at your disposal. Still, I think that believing that you will GET what you want is the most important step. Expect that the judge will see the truth and believe you. Expect that your lawyer will do his or her best to get you what you want. (Fire them and get another if they do not.) Expect the court reporter to be sympathetic to you. Expect the bailiff to be kind to you. I believe that going in with this attitude, that these people are there to help you get what is best will actually help you more than going in with any fear and doubt. Protect yourself, be assertive, be proactive, but also be confident and peaceful that you WILL get what you want. We are all pulling for you here.
Also, go ahead and give the court all the relevant facts you have. The court likes facts, they make it easier to make a decision. The court doesn't like hearsay, it makes it harder to make a decision. Help make this decision as easy as possible for the court and the judge will be more likely to decide in your favor.
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OR:
Have not posted lately because I have been so swamped and am now just getting caught up again. See that things are progressing. The paper work in these cases are such a hassle, but you are handling things wonderfully.
I agree with the others who have posted, just stick to the facts and you have plenty of paperwork to back that up.
I hope you and your D are doing well in your new living enviornment and the job is going well. You might have to pay for half of the trip for your D back to CA, but just make sure you have all the paperwork in place if he refuses to let her come back.
What a nark.........he is focused on his radio station. He reminds me of my father when I was in summer school during college. He demanded that I come home every weekend, it did not matter that it was a hardship on me. It interfered with my studies. Of course he did not offer to come and get me. I had to ride the bus. Same can be said of this. The hardship this places on your daughter? Just so long as he gets what he wants.
Just keep on keeping on
Patz