Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Wiish on April 17, 2005, 09:46:14 PM
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Ok..so tell me if this is a narcissist...I know he is an alcoholic and drug addict, but now wondering about the N word. Husband of 2 weeks short of 20 years has taken off...dust in the wind...wants a divorce and of course it is my job to handle the logistics of getting this done AND try to make sense of a life turned upside down.
Here's the story..man, where do I start...well, first of all he didn't have the balls to tell me himself. My recovering husband has apparently not been recovering for quite sometime and doing a bang-up job of keeping me happily oblivious. He's been working (carpet installing) with this woman who is uglier than homemade sin..seriously...this is not bitter ex-wide talking, this is wife who saw this woman and while I didn't like him working with her, considered about as much of a threat as I would Janet Reno. So...to move ahead, one weekend he says he wants to go to an AA retreat...now this is the first AA retreat he has wanted to go to in almost ten years and I was pretty happy about it. Thinking he really wants to reconnect with AA...what wife of a recovering drunk is going to say no to that. He calls from the "retreat" says how much he misses me and loves me...that he is glad that he got there early because he found a good bed before they were all taken. Comes home, all love and kisses (but no sex..we'll get to THAT in awhile) but very tired and complaining that his back hurt from that lumpy mattress at the retreat. Well..you know where this is going...but, man..how we GOT there. The following day he takes this woman over to our son's house after work to tell my son (who, I found out my husband has been drinking and getting high with for over a year....my son who my husband made to go treatment and threw out of the house for those very same reasons...) that he is leaving mommy and going to live with this woman. I don't know if he was so arrogant that he thought that my son wouldn't tell me or that he thought that my son was his party buddy and they had a loyalty that transcended any sort of respect for mommy. So....the following Day my 21 year old son came over to our house..hemmed and hawwed a bit..I could see something was on his mind, but didn't give it any thought. He left to go home and I carried on with my day...all of a sudden there are cars pulling into the drive..my sister, my nephew, my neice, my son....clearly something was wrong. They came in and said I had to sit down. I thought..my dad died, my son's in trouble....my brain didn't go to anyplace else. My sister says, Danny has something he needs to tell you and he doesn't know how to say it....last weekend when Tom said he was at the AA retreat, he was in Minneapolis with Sheri. He plans to leave you and go be with her. I won't get into all the changes my head went through at that point casue I don't have the steam to keep writing any more really...but I am sure you know how the next few days, weeks went. And the TRULY bizarre part of this chapter of the saga is that when I confronted ny husband with this information, he was actually ANGRY at my son for narc-ing him out. Sat there and said that the kid owed him an apology. So, that is phase one of this story...my best friend told me about this site and suggested I post on here and get some insight from you all...There's more, but I have to take a break from it for now...thanks
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Oh my GOD!
I wouldn't even know what to do. Well...first off at least you know now. And your family cared enough to have a group sit down with you. (Sounds like good people!)
2nd, if your husband is really deep in drinking and drugs, and you're not, isn't it kind of a relief to be rid of him? If he doesn't want to change, you can't make him. Sounds like he found himself a "partying buddy" in this woman. They probably go out, getting all messed up, and go home and pass out together if they're hardcore partiers.
I don't know if this guy is a narcissist, but having an alcoholic family myself, they SURE know how to blame others for their mistakes. They'll point fingers and hate anyone to get in their way of doing their thing.
But it sounds like he just "announced his leaving you" and you should just pick up the pieces and file for divorce? I wouldn't make it too easy for him!
I'm getting mad hearing about how all these people out there poop on people and expect you to just take it and deal with it. We're the ones who lose sleep, don't eat, cry and see therapists while they go on their merry little way to fulfill their pleasures.
Keep writing here though, you'll get valuable advice!
Good luck...and hang in there!
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((((((((((Wiish))))))))))
I'm so sorry.....
A lot of Ns do have addiction problems but active addiction will make almost anybody act like an N, so it's hard to tell what they really are, when they are using.
I'm glad your son had the guts to go to family and make sure you were told what was happening.
Wow, I am so sorry.
hugs
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He sounds like a narcissist. Totally selfish, check. Liar, check. No empathy, check. Deceitful and disloyal, check. Manipulative, check. Always blames others, check. Thinks he's entitled to do whatever the hell he wants, check. I could go on....
You may be far better off without this addict. However he may well try to come back. That's when you'll really have trouble.
bunny
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I really appreciate your input. Andrea, the thing is if I don't take care of things they won't get done and at this point he has agreed to quit claim the house to me (and the debt, of course) and I am doing what I have to do to cover my butt financially. He was really good about bringing money over for the first couple of weeks, but we are headed into the third week of April and so far not a dime. He does, however, have money to party and to get himself the tattoo he has longed for for years. He is on a spree doing everything that he has wanted to do that I have stood in the way of. He's coming over on Tuesday to take our kid bowling and I am seriously concerned about him wanting to be good-time dad with our son and partying with this younger one too. I told him a couple of weeks ago that our younger son really misses him and needs to see him..his response was that he "can't be in two places at once." When I told him that Drew was having a really hard time with this and was smoking pot, his response was,"oh, he's been doing that for a long time...everybody parties." Completely oblivious to any parental responsibility. I know I have absolutely no control over him and what he does once they are out of my sight (clearly) but I guess if that were to happen, I would have to just call the cops and have him nailed for contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
There are other facets of this that make me think of him being narcissistic after listening to my friend who posts on this board. Even before all this happened, we would be talking on the phone and I would be thinking how there were a lot of similarities about what she was telling me about her situation and my situation.
In our marriage, I learned to shut up about things. Not about the drinking..that was one thing that after ten years of living with him as an active drunk, I couldn't take anymore and I do believe that for a time, he was sincere in his desire to be sober. The biggest example of me having to shut up I would say would be regarding sex. Never, in our twenty years of marriage and even before was there a time when sex was not something I had to ask for, negotiate for and more often than not get turned down. I have always been overweight, but at the time we got together I had been holding my own on a 70 pound weight loss for close to ten years. When we first got together it seemed a little weird to me that he didn't seem particularly interested in sex. I knew from talking to his ex wife that this was a problem in their marriage too, but I was young and in love and figured that this had to do with HER. She responded to it by cheating which is something I wouldn't do. So...here we are in our fisrt year of marriage and things were pretty sparse in the bedroom. And I started eating...over the whole 20 years, I ended up gaining close to 80 pounds and then with that came this sense of not being deserving of his attention. I would go to take a shower and stand in front of the mirror and berate myself and say,"of course he doesn't want to sleep with you, you're gross" although he would assure me that that had nothing to do with it and if I looked like Marilyn Monroe it would be the same way. Thing is that he KNEW how much this hurt me, but he would never do anything about it. As time went on and nothing changed, I tried to accept it and keep my mouth shut and just not broach the subject, but you know after a couple of months it's hard to not say something..so I would ask with great trepidation, "would you like to have a date?" Never could be spontaneous..always had to make an appointment..nine times out of ten, I'd get a "We'll see how I feel later..." lol..now that's a real ego booster...
Then he would ask me "what's wrong" and if I said anything..you know..like speak the truth which he KNEW already, he would get all moody and start saying what a bad husband he was and then I would be the one convincing him that he was a good husband and we would just have to work on this. I had to go on medication for depression and somehow I had to make HIM feel better about that. There was never any discussion about what I was depressed about..he knew damned well what I was depressed about, but I couldn't say it because if I did it would be turned around so that I ended up assuring him that it wasn't anything he was doing. If the doc had to increase my meds, we would go through the same dance...He knew he was hurting me and knew what he needed to do to fix it, but there was alwys something more important to him than being with me..be it football or...heck..whatever...if he worked hard all day, if he was mad at someone about something (frequently mad at SOMEONE), if the COwboys lost a game....there was always a reason to put me off.
So...that's another brick in the wall and I am tired of writing about it, but it feels good to vent and I appreciate your insight, Stormchild and Andrea.
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Ok Wish...now we have something in common.
My ex is an N also and we had the same trouble in the bedroom-big time. I'm a tall girl, maybe a little chubby, but have nice legs, I've got a great face, nice styled hair, always wear makeup, perfume, dress nice.
But my ex also never really wanted sex. He always said it may be my "weight" and if I lost it it may help. I lost 15 lbs in 3 weeks. Things didn't change. He would threaten me and tell me how all these other girls wanted him and I needed to hurry up!
Sex was a "reward" for me. If I was being a "good girl" we would do it. But I had to get on top. I was never allowed to initiate sex. And he never was able to finish, but told me that every other girl he was with he could. (He ended up masturbating, or would masturbate alone.)
He never kissed me, hugged me, barely touched my body ever. I felt like a fat freak. I did the same thing, stood in the bathroom and said, "you fat-ass! Lose weight and then he'll LOVE you."
He started getting violent with me during sex. I started to think I deserved it. He would bite me, hit me, slap me, and I think now it was out of sexual frustration, but either point, he HURT ME.
I finally reported him to the police, but he told them I liked rough sex, we always did that, and he's "Not violent" and not a "Big drinker". yeah, right. I started drinking more from the situation then.
My self-esteem was shot, still is. I feel A-sexual now. Like I don't want ANYONE touching me or kissing me. I'm scared to get involved with a man. He took my self-confidence away about sex. (And I never had complaints before with men!)
We never had foreplay. He always had to be drunk. Then he started getting stupid and wanted me to have 3-somes and maybe that would help? Or have sex with his friend? Or have people watch us? He always wanted to up the ante. It was bullcrap.
Now that he's gone I have gone out with my girlfriends. I've met several guys and they ASKED me for my phone number. I'm remembering who I was and that I'm not some awful looking girl. (i'm not ready to date, but it's a compliment)
Oh, and by the way, I saw some of his ex-girlfirends. NONE of them are very cute. They're all messed up, cokeheads, drunks, strippers...but that's what gets him off I guess. And I have a good job, morals, never been married and no kids...I guess I'm not enough of a loser to "excite" him.
But hey, It's not my tree to sit in anymore, but the sucker's going down.
:twisted:
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Well, the funny thing about all this is that since he has left I've lost 30 pounds....that's two to three weeks of not being able to swallow food unless someone was standing over me making it do it and now I am able to manage eating, but ...who knows...
I will say that my husband never verbalized anything about my weight. If anything, he was really nonjudgmental about it and always supportive of whatever I wanted to do relative to that, whether it was to be a weightwatcher zealot or an eating machine. I took his lack of interest and internalized it and beat myself up with it.
I'm not particularly pretty.....average at best...short little fat lady...I don't know what I am going to do about realtionships in the future. At this point, it is something I think of mostly in terms of just having someone to communicate with, but the idea of having sex with someone other than my husband seems pretty foreign at this time. I have virtually no self-esteem at this point. I can't imagine anyone ever wanting me. If you could see the woman that he "left me for" you would know why. A good foot taller than him and not an attractive thing about her. Imagine an unattractive woman who is big and ox-y enough to haul rolls of carpet. I have maintained since this happened that he didn't leave me for her, but for the right to party and do all the things I stood in the way of. He looked me dead in the eye and said "I love you, but I am not in love with you anymore...I love Sheri." That really kicked my ass because I never saw her as a threat or saw any of this coming...so I look at her and think I must be horrible if he would want to be with her instead of me. He told me that he married a fun girl who would party with him, but who has turned into this straight-laced church lady. He seems to forget that I spent the first ten years of our marriage dealing with his active drinking and drugging and that can kind of take the fun out of going to the bars. Also, there was that small matter of two children to raise and as you grow up, your priorities change.
This week I found out though that while he was installing carpet at our neighbor's house last year, a bottle of oxycontin went missing. And I found out that the last time I took our oldest son to the doctor for an ear infection, my husband went over to his house to "check on him." I'm thinking he is being a good dad...found out this week that when he got to my son's house he asked if they had given him anything for pain and if he could have some. So now I am seeing things clearer and beating myself up less becasue now I know that he didn't leave me for that ox, he left me for drugs and alcohol and in his sick mind he would rather admit to cheating than admit to his disease. So..he is a liar and a cheat and a thief and I think it was getting too hard for him to keep up with the lies anymore.
What Bunny pasted sort of hit home with me too...especially the selfishness thing. He wants what he wants when he wants it and anyone who stands in the way be damned. Time spent with his children has always been at his convenience. If he spent time with them it was doing something that interested HIM..not their stuff. My yougest son (15) has talked about this with me. Both kids have really opened up about their perception of their relationship with their dad and it is coming to light that they have felt as dismissed as I have.
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From the sound of things, maybe deep down he felt a little guilty and knew he was doing wrong and he was hurting all of you.
He has this other non-judgemental "ox" who will let him do his thing and does it with him! He is probably calling it "love" with Sheri when it's really just drugs and booze they have in common. It will last as long as their most recent "high". But he can slum and bum and drink and smoke and she probably doesn't expect much out of him.
Your kids need you and he sounds like a terrible role model. Kids aren't dumb. They probably caught on a long time ago. They may be harboring anger towards him for a long time. No one likes being on a emotional roller coaster. Who can you depend on?
And don't worry about meeting someone new! I can't bear to think about sex anytime soon either. The plan is to get myself and my life back together! I think a lot of us on here are trying to do that. One day at a time. That's as far as I can go right now....
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And the TRULY bizarre part of this chapter of the saga is that when I confronted ny husband with this information, he was actually ANGRY at my son for narc-ing him out. Sat there and said that the kid owed him an apology.
This man sounds like a nasty piece of work. The tactic of deflection that he is using here is certainly one my Nmum uses a lot, whenever anyone gets close to telling her the truth about pretty well anything. Unless you can understand what they are doing it is very effective at shifting blame onto an innocent party. I dare say there are few of us here who have not had this happen to us, and stood there wondering how on earth we got from being hurt to being the baddie.
My alcoholic husband also used this tactic, and still does, to portray me as the wicked woman who drove him to drink, and to absolve himself of any responsibility whatever. Very nasty.
I am sorry you are in this situation, wiish.
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Wiish! And Andrea!
I am so sorry you had such terrible husbands. And I'm really glad for you that they are gone. WOW. Just awful.
Wiish, your husband sounds like he is twelve years old. I guess addiction leads to that. But a lot of N's use alcohol and other drugs to keep them feeling superiour, and I agree with Bunny he seems to be an N and an addict.
I love that you are taking care of things-- get a really good lawyer. It's going to be a bumpy ride, I am betting, having watched these super-great husbands turn into truly-super-great exhusbands (sarcasm....). He probably will try to get out of paying anything he owes. Your lawyer can help you figure out how to get as much out of him upfront as possible so you don't spend the rest of your days chasing him around. I have seen a lot of women end up weirdly tied to these guys through their anger at them-- yuck! If you are looking for a check every month that doesn't come, every month is another chance to want to throttle him. I mean, I don't even know him and I very very much want to throttle him right now
:twisted:
Does it sound like a dismissive cliche to say you are better off without him? I don't mean it dismissively at all-- I just see how articulate and funny and smart you are, and how insightful, and I contrast that with Mr. Tell the Son about the Affair While Drunk and it seems clear that better things are ahead for you without him.
please keep posting--
Vunil
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PS It's clear your family really loves you and wanted to protect you-- that is something wonderful to hold onto.
PPS Please please can I at least kick this man in the shins? Just once?
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Vunil,
The shins? And once? No, no, no.
I would recommend aiming, depending on his height, about two to three feet higher and repeating the treatment as necessary. :twisted:
Sorry you all have had so many problems with my sex. Pretty hard living down being a man sometimes. :oops: :roll:
mudpuppy
PS. Vunil I have some large heavy boots you can borrow.
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And then, just when I am feeling the teeniest bit empowered....argh....todya was my first day at my new job..shoved as much of the turmoil as I could to the back of my head and di pretty fine all day. Then I came home and the house was empty and I wanted to tell my husband about the job..you know..talk, so I called him which was DUMB when I am in that frame of mind. Told him I missed him....his response? "Cool." He wasn't even listening to my pain he is so far into his crap...it's just very hard when you are used to having someone to talk to for 20 years to come home to an empty house. Sometimes it's harder than others. Sometimes I can fake it through and some times I am sincerely strong. Most of the time I'm faking it.
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Wriite-- I have these same feelings about my family-- I sometimes call them even though I know I shouldn't and I am inevitably disappointed.
I just did that, actually, in a moment of weakness, and I really regret it. I think the key (and I am trying to remember that!) is to try to call other people instead, people I know will be there for me, supportive, loving, straight-forward, etc. It's important not to be vulnerable with an N person, because they will never be good in those moments (or if they are it is not something to rely on-- soon will come the hatchet!).
So, I know you are having a rough night, but please feel free to reach out to us, and to other people who will be there for you. And don't worry one second about your phone call. You wish he was a nice person because you are and you deserve one. That's fine!
Hang in there :) Hugs to you. You poor thing-- we are all sending positive feelings your way.
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PS. Vunil I have some large heavy boots you can borrow.
STEEL TOES!!!
STEEL TOES!!!
:twisted: :twisted: :evil: :evil: :twisted: :twisted:
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Dear Wiish,
Welcome to this board. I'm very sorry for what you are going through. I can relate to most of what you have experienced. My N H of 23 years (we have been separated for 18 months and hopefully are close to divorce) started having an affair with a younger, married woman that he met through work. He is not a drug addict or alcoholic that I am aware of, but he has always been a party boy and one of his reasons for leaving was to have more fun. My husband's addiction is a sexual one. Not having sex with me--that hardly ever happened--but using porn and having sex with himself. That has been going on for most of our marriage, but I had no idea. He was lying about his disinterest in sex, blaming it on being tired, stressed at work, medication, blah, blah, blah. I am attractive, in shape, still weigh the same as I did when I graduated from high school (I am 54 now) and take good care of myself. He was the one with the weight problems, but I never said anything or gave any indication that it bothered me. Of course, once he got the girlfriend he went on a weight loss program, started working out, whitening the teeth, tanning and of course, the dead giveaway, bought new underwear and went from briefs to boxers.
I was shocked just as you were by the announcement that my H wanted to leave our marriage. I lost 12 pounds in 6 weeks because, like you, I couldn't swallow food. It wasn't until I got on some anti-psychotic drugs, that I was able to start eating and regaining my strength. I have 2 children, 16 and 20 who spend very little time with their father and his support comes in the way of money only. My daughter got confirmed at church tonight, and he did not bother to show up.
I hired the best attorney I could get (my H wanted to hire him, but I got to him first :twisted: ) and we're still fighting through it. In fact, we go to mediation on Thursday and I am asking all my friends here to say a prayer for me that I get what I am deserving of and I can walk away and be done. He continues to lie about his business income and can get away with it because he is self-employed and in business with his father.
I could relate to much more of what you said, but I think you get the idea. I will say that life does go on and things get better and you will eventually realize how much better off you are without him. All cliches right now, but true nontheless. I have started dating again and see hope and light at the end of the tunnel. I pray you do as well.
God bless,
Brigid
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Wiish,
As your friend on this board and in life, I am sending you many healing thoughts. I am truly sad and sorry you were not able to share your first day of work with your N (and, yes, the more I think about it, the more he fits the profile as bunny indicated).
PLEASE, PLEASE try to do yourself a favor and not share your inner most thoughts with him. At the very least, as you pointed out, he will simply be indifferent, disinterested or callous. However, in the future as you proceed with your divorce he could also use demonstrations of your vulnerability as legal manipulation and/or emotional blackmail.
Hang in there. Keep posting. You belong here.
Love,
bludie
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Wiish,
One more thing I wanted to comment on regarding the similarities in our situations is the immaturity of the spouses. I honestly think that the life-changing event that pushed my H to want out was when our son decided to attend the same university that my H attended and he started thinking about how much fun that time in his life was and he was actually jealous. He will be 50 soon, but he pretends he is 20 and wants to live his life like he is. I would be talking about how much I looked forward to the day when we would be grandparents and have the whole family together for Christmas and he would be thinking that he was never going to be old enough to be a grandparent (same thing his 86-year-old N father thinks). His idea of fun became hanging out in bars and clubs with loud, pounding music and hanging out with people in their 20's. My therapist explained (he saw both of us in therapy for 6 weeks and was the one to explain that my H is an N) that he is an emotional teenager who has rebelled and run away from home--among many other dysfunctions.
One other item regarding the sex (or lack thereof). I have mentioned this on other threads that because of my N's immaturity, he viewed me as a mother figure rather than his wife and emotional equal. Another reason he could not be sexual with me--who wants to have sex with their mother. :shock:
I always got the same stuff about how he wasn't good enough so I would feel sorry for him and tell him how wonderful he was, a good husband, a good father, whatever. I was his defender and biggest advocate to his father (H very intimidated by him), his business associates who just saw him as the boss's son, and all the other people who couldn't understand why I was with such a lazy, incompetent jerk.
With time and distance, you begin to see all this stuff more clearly. You are still in the shock phase and that takes awhile to get through. I hope you are getting some therapy and meds if you need them. It really helps. I also joined a divorce support group at my church and that has been very helpful as well. Concentrate your efforts on protecting your children from this man. They are old enough to make their own choices about spending time with him. He is obviously corrupting them with his harmful behaviors and you don't need any more to deal with right now.
(((((((wiish)))))))
Brigid
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I just want to post really quickly how much I love this board and how much your insights have been helping me work through this junk. Going to do a real post later, but just wanted to send a general thanks to you all with love,
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Meant to get in here sooner and post more, but got busy at WORK and didn't, so....having a fairly empowered day actually. I am working for a medical transport company..do office work and scheduling and today they sent me on a couple of runs...had to do a lot of driving around places that H and I had been together and I felt myself getting ready for a good tailspin and then I really thought about it and got to thinking how many times I had driven down those roads with him with tears in my eyes because I had so much to say and so many things weighing heavy on my mind and heart , but I couldn't verbalize them becasue that would have gotten into the whole "it's my fault I am crying, you are a good husband" dance...and I really focused on that and have made it through the day with the odd twinge here and there, but no hysterical sobbing and a sense (at least for today) of moving forward. I'm not saying I am over the hump, but the hump is getting more manageable.
So, my plan for life at this point is to get past this mess and live well.
And for today at least, H is cordially invited to bite me.
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And for today at least, H is cordially invited to bite me.
HOO-rah!!!!!!!!!!!! You GO girl.
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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New insight...after visiting with our son on Tuesday, H and I sat down and had a talk. I took the opportunity to be very precise about what I thought about the ox-woman..there may heae been specific body parts and what could be done with them involved..who knows..I was on a roll and if felt good.
But then we get to the crux of it...the lying and the drinking. His logic(?) for why he has done all of this is because my son 21 year old son who was staying with us and our friend who is still with us drink and get high and that IT ISN'T FAIR THAT HE CAN'T DO WHAT EVERYONE ELSE CAN DO IN HIS OWN HOUSE. So, rather than be honest and admit the drinking/drugging/relapsing/lying is a problem, he would rather go live in a shack with ox-woman and make me think that she was in catalyst. PUH-LEEEEZE.....His logic for throwing away his family and home is the same as my fifteen year old's for not cleaning his room...geezopete....
Wiish
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IT ISN'T FAIR THAT HE CAN'T DO WHAT EVERYONE ELSE CAN DO IN HIS OWN HOUSE
I suppose if an infant were in the house he would insist on wearing diapers.
Perhaps you should ask him if he would like you to read him "Goodnight Moon" before he goes to sleepies tonight.
Jeez Louise. What a baby.
Not to mention since he is the DAD (oh my what a concept) his job is to stop his son from doing stupid things, not to feel jealous of him for "being able" to do them.
I suppose I'm saying the obvious....
I'm glad your kids have a grown-up to learn from-- if they learned only from him they would be in big trouble.
Why talk to him? He does make for funny posts, but he is just about the most aggravating person alive, so avoiding him might save your sanity. Let the new mommy deal with him.
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I have to talk to him cause we have our son in common and also because I need to keep him blithely ignorant of my growing anger until I get the quit claim on my house signed. We have to do the divorce pro se because neither of us can afford a lawyer..I went and bought a divorce kit that I am hoping to make some progress on this weekend. We agree on everything at this point...I get the house and about 20,000 worth of antiques and anything else in the house...I also get a home equity debt of about 27,000 which I am hoping to eliminate with his mom's antiques. He will pay 250 per month child support. He gets his personal effects, some well-packed sentimental zingers and 20,000 in credit card debt on cards that my name isn't on anymore. At this point we are still being decent to each other and hoping we can maintain that for the duration.
I like the baby/diaper thing..lol..might save that one for an opportune moment...
Wiish
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Wiish,
If your goofus husband lets you out that easy I think its safe to say he is not an N.
He's a pretty awful husband and father. Ok a really awful one, but at least he's not trying to control you while he gores his ox, to coin a really repulsive phrase.
He has some N traits but no NPDer would just walk off and cut a fair deal.
Beware however, does he have a history of making reasonable offers like this and then yanking them out from under you? Now that would indicate an N. :evil:
Not much of a silver lining if he isn't an N, but at east you could have a chance to start rebuilding your life instead of an endless series of infantile
provocations.
mudpup
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Mudpup,
I wouldn't be so quick to state that he is not an N. Not all Ns use anger and vindictiveness to manipulate their victims. My NH did not demonstrate those traits. He manipulated through charm, humor and a lot of self-deprication. I think because he was so intimidated by his father and was never able to break free of that because he went into business with him, that anger was something he could never use to get his way. IMO the n personality must find the methods that work best for them to get what they need. I think a better test of the n personality would be the lying, lack of empathy and total disregard for their fellow human beings. I guess that's just what I have learned from my therapist. But it could be that this man is just a class A jerk.
Brigid
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Brigid, I second your post. My wife was NEVER allowed to express anger to her mother growing up, so she has learned ALL MANNER of less observable (deniable) behaviors to try to get what she wants.
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But then we get to the crux of it...the lying and the drinking. His logic(?) for why he has done all of this is because my son 21 year old son who was staying with us and our friend who is still with us drink and get high and that IT ISN'T FAIR THAT HE CAN'T DO WHAT EVERYONE ELSE CAN DO IN HIS OWN HOUSE. So, rather than be honest and admit the drinking/drugging/relapsing/lying is a problem, he would rather go live in a shack with ox-woman and make me think that she was in catalyst. PUH-LEEEEZE.....His logic for throwing away his family and home is the same as my fifteen year old's for not cleaning his room...geezopete....
I can understand his taking zero responsibility because he is a full-blown, narcissist addict. One q I have is, are your 21 year old son and a family friend allowed to drink/drug in your house? Shouldn't that be off-limits to them too? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation.
bunny
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I don't know if he is a N or not...I don't know if the behavoir is a result of alcoholsim or of the alcholism is the result of the behavior. When he is sober, he is a very kind and thoughtful man...well..when he is not in alcoholic mode, that is..I mean, even now, he has moments of what could be called kindness, but the pervasive thing is that he is willing to give everthing that he has worked for for the last ten years for the right to drink and take drugs.....so I guess alcoholism is probably the dominant issue. He did have a matched set of alcoholic parents and after his mother died, his mother treated him like a bad investment (he was adopted and she never wanted a baby.) My feelings toward him are of incredible loss for the person that I know is on the other side of all this garbage because that is the man I married...and pity for what he is doing to his life and for what this is all going to do to him down the road, should he ever have a moment of clarity or honesty. The cheating is a by=product of the drinking thing and I personally believe a "create-a-crisis" masterstroke to force the issue and do something so horrible that in his eyes there is no going back. He knew that if I found out about the drinking that that would be a HUGE problem and he didn't want to confront THAT problem so he created another one he thought that I would see as unforgiveable.
I did ten years with him drinking and could never go back there and he knew that. If he let our marriage break up over drinking, he would have to admit he had a problem...the cheating let him maintain his denial.
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trying to determine whether the problem is alcoholism or narcissism is like trying to figure out which came first, the chicken or the egg. I suppose the main issue now is, does he acknowledge his addiction and want to recover? If the answer is no, I'd get him to agree to everything during this window of opportunity when he's feeling a bit guilty and ashamed. He could do a turnaround and become bitter and angry and stubborn. Sorry... :cry:
bunny
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Many, many folks with substance abuse problems have a real compulsion to crap in their own nests. It makes them feel like total lowlifes, so they can continue the substance abuse.
Also, if whoever shares the nest doesn't leave when it's crapped in, the crap tends to provoke codependent responses [because almost any response other than leaving has no choice but to be codependent, unless you are really savvy and aware of the pitfalls. Who is? Hardly anyone.] Which again are used as an excuse to continue the substance abuse.
You are WELL out of this, Wiish.
[I consider alcoholism a form of substance abuse.]
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Bunny, As far as the other people drinking in the house, they aren't allowed to. My son, when he was living with us, went ahead and did it anyway without my knowing it. I knew that he went out and drank and got high, but after YEARS of alanon have finally accepted that I can make myself nuts monitoring their behavior or I can just let them do what they do and hope that someday the consequences get to them. As far as our friend is concerned, he respected the face that I didn't want drinking in the house and although he does go out and drink, he doesn't drink here and he doesn't come home drunk. I was still operating under the false assumption that my husband viewed sobriety as something he knew he needed to do and didn't realize that having other people in the house going ahead and living their lives was going to be an issue for him. I thought that he was sincere about his desire for sobriety.
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and bunny..you are totally correct about the window of opportunity his guilt is giving me as far as coming our of this financially ok is concerned.
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Another week down and I am feeling better. Have strung several non-sobbing days together and feeling more in control of my out of control life and thinking that this whole mess is going to be better for me in the long-run, just like everyone has been telling me from day one. Got a job...pay is lousy but there are a lot of hours to be had (50 this week) so I can make it on my own, thank you so much. My formerly dearly beloved has contributed 175.00 this month to the care and feeding of his former family and told my son he took his new family to Milwaukee to the IMAX theatre..not a cheap fieldtrip by any means..while pleading poverty and responsibilties for ox-woman's bills to me....oh, well...my plan is to situate myself so whatever child support he is ordered to pay by the courts is money that I don't count on for survival..that way I don't have to get nuts worrying about it and the state will pursue it for me. The IMAX fieldtrip was really a good thing for my head..underlined and put an exclamation point on his skewed priorities and who and what I am really dealing with. Amazing how someone can so completely absolve themselves of responsibility and caring in such a short time. He's doing incredible damage to his relationship with our son, but either doesn't see it or doesn't care. Not my job to figure it out or fix it for him anymore either. He walked away from two other kids from his previous marriage, so maybe it gets easier as you jettison more children. My son, fortunately, has a pretty sound sense of reality and while he is hurt, just chalks it up to his dad being an idiot. So anyway..that is life in the fast lane and wanted to give you an update and still more thanks for how you guys are helping me through this oh-so-special moment in my life. Wiish
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He walked away from two other kids from his previous marriage, so maybe it gets easier as you jettison more children.
He is a heavy-duty narcissist :evil:. I'm glad you have a job, I hope it's not too arduous (50 hrs!). Hang in there!
bunny
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Insanity update...this morning we went and did the first step of the pro se thing. We drove in to town together...I cried in the office when I saw our names on the divorce file...came back home and discovered that one of the kids had smashed the lights on his trailer, so he was all fired up about that. In the grand scheme of things, I think there are bigger issues than the smashed lights, although the kids and I are going to have a LOUD chat about that whole line of behaviour. I just found it weird that our lives are falling apart, I have no money, I'm an emotional trainwreck, my kids are clearly hurting over this...and he is worried over a couple of smashed tail lights and where in the heck I packed his baseball glove.
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Found out the tail light culprit...it was my younger son...husband just assumes that it is the older one who refuses to speak to him...argh. My son said that he was out in the yard scooping poop and saw a pickax..saw the lights and it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. He has been diabused of that concept. Wiish
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that would be disabused