Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: d's mom on April 17, 2005, 11:43:05 PM
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OH
MY
GOD
the funniest thing just happened to me that ever happened in my whole life. not funny-weird, FUNNY HA HA.
I recently wrote, that I was doing my usual humilating dog-tricks to get my daughter here for her summer visit, in this case having to email my father and 'ask' for what is mine, even though we are supposed to have a month, we usually get no more than a week, ten days if we are REALLY REALLY lucky. <doling out their crumbs>
so he wrote me back, and i hadnt opened it, beucase frankly its hugely depressing and it really just hurts, so i dont like to do it. i knew he was going to turn me down, he always does, and i wasnt looking forward to it.
its been a week and ive finally steeled myself and just opened his email.
AND what happened was sooooo funny that it literally blew me right out of my chair. the force of my surprise, took me halfway across the room.
usually my father has an impenetrable facade. nothing can crack it. he is cooooooooooooooooooool as a cucumber. nothing will get to him, nothing he lets you see anyway. EVER.
well...... lately ive started referring to him as 'bruce' instead of 'dad'. hes not acting like my dad. hes never acted like my dad. i dont really feel like he is my dad. it feels more natural, to refer to him as bruce. so thats what ive been doing recently. it wasnt purposely to 'bug' him or anyone. it realy didnt involve much thought at all. hes just not 'dad' to me. so what.
well.... in this most recent email... i addressed it to 'bruce'. just so you guys can see that i am totally reasonable even though it makes me want to puke - below is my email: (the reference to our 'agreement' was beucase when she first went there, we made an agreement together that she'd visit me for a whole month every summer. thats never happened once, of course. last year they gave some excuse about 'scheduling' so i told them last -september-, that we'd be expecting our full month this year. you can see what they thought of that.) i wrote:
Bruce:
It is time to plan Delphine's summer visit with me. We have much to do, and
since we expressed last year that this year we would be expecting a full
month, I am confident that this year you have had plenty of notice and
fairly allotted us our full month together, as outlined in our original
agreement.
I have been careful to check this with Delphine and she has verified
several times that she would like to be here for a much longer period.
There are several fairs, a number of public classes, and many things we
plan to do in addition to the usual movies, shopping, gardening, and other activities.
Please let me know which four weeks she will be here.
thank you very much,
Anna
well - this is what he wrote back, mr. ultra reasonable and in control as always:
Hi Anna,
Delphine has two months out of school. She will be going to Lazy J Ranch
Camp for four weeks, and reasonably, whe will need time between school, camp, your place, and school again. Delphine will be at your home for two weeks this summer. I will let you know exactly the schedule as we get closer to it.
By the way,
My name is Dad to you, Bruce to personal friends and Dr. Goldreyer to those who wish to annoy me.
BWAAAAAHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"those who wish to annoy me?" i dont know about the n's in your life. but for my father to say that - is equivalent to ... ... i dont know... i cant even think of anything. ive never seen him admit to any expression of emotion ever in my life. hes an iceberg. i can almost hear the little three year old, truly insulted that this forty year old woman is taking back some of her power, by relating to him on my own terms.
i know ive read that n's biggest peeve is to be treated as plain, ordinary, unspecial, insignificant, or not worth your time. well.... i guess this just proved, that theory is COOOOOOORRECT.
ive never done any action in my life (except exist) that has gotten under my fathers skin.... for my father, that was a major, unprecedented crack in the facade. he SNAPPED. becuase he cant control what i CALL HIM. i LOVE it.
then again i just had my phone conversation with delphine which is always sad, awkward and heartbreaking. they will always find a way to punish me somehow. but, we tried to have fun. but it breaks my heart so bad what they do to her. :( :( :(
those fleeting moments of happiness. over so fast. how dare i not be a beaten down slave.
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ps im sorry if that was confusing, i wrote most of it when i was really feeling happy, which is really rare, then finished it after i talked with delphine so i was back to feeling all of that again.
i reailize that might have seemed strange.
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ps im sorry if that was confusing, i wrote most of it when i was really feeling happy, which is really rare, then finished it after i talked with delphine so i was back to feeling all of that again.
i reailize that might have seemed strange.
Can you not enforce this month stay? If it is agreed with the courts, can they not have a say in this at all? However, if that means you would miss out on the two weeks, then I would understand you not doing it.
It must be very tempting to get your daughter for those two weeks, and take her abroad and stay there. Fantasy is a wonderful thing!!!!!!! Or maybe ....
Sorry if I don't understanding your position properly. And if I were you I would continue with the first name; he is an adult; you are an adult. First names are fine. Ignore the rest. :lol:
If you go back to 'dad' you put him back into the parent position, of power. I don't think that would be a good move. Well done for making him reveal his true self!!!!!
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Hey not confusing at all, I got it and yeah, it is funny in that dark way I understand. Funny in a shocking way. Funny in a “wow, look at the anger and shit underneath that façade!” kind of way.
But I am sorry that yet again you’re being deliberately frustrated and denied justice/fairness.
What will you do now?
Obviously not call him ‘Dad’! or maybe you should? If you call him ‘Dad’ from now on, he’ll think he’s ‘won’ but then he’ll reconsider and know you’re just doing it to take the mickey out of his insecurity. Yeah, call him Dad, that’s what he wants and it will show that actually, it doesn’t even matter to you. In fact, it might be worth doing a really over-the-top apology. “I’m so sorry, I didn’t realise that my calling you Dad was so important, I hope I haven’t upset you Dad.” :D
Maybe not. But I don’t know. Dealing with people like this, whatever we do will be interpreted in their own crazy way so we might as well do as we wish, if it helps us.
Also I guess you’re not a ‘personal friend’? Oh I could go on about that email. But what’s the use. Call him ‘Dad’ – he’ll know you don’t mean it and that you’re doing it to patch his weak spot. That will irk him. That you’re strong and he isn’t.
The important thing is what will/can you do about the 2 weeks vs. a month?
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Wow, talk about a dismissive tone! I get similar e-mails from my mom-- I call it the "off with her head!" approach. Royalty has spoken.
I love all of the declarative sentences (presumably handed down from the mountaintops): It WILL be two weeks, etc.
I agree you should get the courts to enforce the one month. Your asking is not going to make them do anything differently. In the e-mail it is pretty clear what this man thinks of your desires and opinions. He even pronounced HIS idea (and by contrast, not yours!) "reasonable." Thus spake him.
A higher force is going to have to work with you to get what you want. I believe in spiritual higher forces, but for this I bet on legal higher forces. Get them to give you what you are owed.
As for the "don't call me Bruce" thing, it was sort of funny at the end there-- almost like he was pulling back in a way, a little teeny bit aware that he was sounding ridiculous. Not that he can ever truly be aware of that. But even that part of the letter had the "I am not declaring from the throne" tone to it. Certainly isn't a conversation, is it? You don't get to decide what to call him with your own mouth. I guess he's in charge of that, too.
I am so sorry! I don't know your situation well enough to truly provide advice (just guesses) but it does sound very stressful.
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oops, I meant "NOW declaring from the throne."
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d's mom...
I don't come here often, but I felt I should mention that you may wish to edit your thread and remove the identifying names, you can't be too careful.
It's not such a good idea to add things which can be traced back to you or others on the internet.
I hope you don't mind me mentioning it.... :)
I really do hope you find a resolution.
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Hiya Anna:
By the way,
My name is Dad to you, B.... to personal friends and Dr. G...... to those who wish to annoy me.
What if you were to ask him a few questions such as:
"What is a dad?
Is it just a title, or a way to act/behave toward a child?
How do you feel when I don't call you dad?
How do you feel when I do call you dad?
Do dad's demand to be called dad, usually, or is it a natural, comfortable thing that happens because it feels right and because things are right between child and dad?
Do you want to know why I don't feel comfortable/natural/right calling you dad?
Do you care?
Would a dad usually care/most dads care?
How do you feel about me?
Are you really my dad?"
Makes me sooo curious to see what his answers would be!!!!
But...........you are wanting something from him......a month visit with your child.......and he is demanding something from you....to be called dad. I wonder if it might be possible to trade?
"Since I want to visit my child for a month, and since you want me to call you Dad, do you think we could trade? I love my child and I am her mom and the agreement was that I will visit with her for one month. Are you my dad? Do you love me? Is that why you want me to call you dad? How about if I visit with my child for one month, as agreed? I could call you dad, if you acted like you loved me/understood love for a child and showed it by doing what was agreed. How about being like a dad to me?"
This might just be me venting on your behalf. :( :x :shock:
Only you can guess how he might react and whether it would be a risk worth taking, or better to try another approach?
((((((((((((((Anna))))))))))))
(You can always call him dad without meaning it!!) :evil:
GFN
PS: Gardener is probably right.......isn't it dangerous to have his name here? Isn't it a good idea to edit it out??
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Just a quickie. About editing.
Only members signed in can edit posts. Guest posts (by anyone) cannot be edited (as far as I know).
Anna, if you’re bothered about your stuff on posts here, you can email Dr Grossman and ask him to delete certain posts (or the entire thread I guess). This has happened several times to my knowledge.
If you’re not bothered, good. Most abusive folk couldn’t even find a board like this and if they could, they wouldn’t be bothered to read it. They’d just want to post all about them! :D take care all
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I don't think it's unbelievable or even surprising. You provoked him by calling him Bruce and he reacted. You must have known he wouldn't like it. My strategy is usually NOT to let the other person know what I'm really thinking.
bunny
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Maybe you should call him Dr. G and then he'd really know how you feel. I mean if you call him Bruce, you're admitting to being his "friend."
My exNH always signed his cards and notes to me .... " Love from your husband John Smith." Even love letters. Like maybe I wasn't sure which John was my husband? Weird.
You have my sympathy. I hope that it won't be too long before your daughter is able to make her own decisions with regard to where she lives.
They usually can figure it out when they get a little older.
I have no children with exNH but three stepdaughters. One hasn't spoken to him for nearly five years, another for nearly three. The youngest is still in college (far away). It will be interesting to see what happens when she graduates.
Have faith,
Gingerpeach
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Anna, your "father's"emails about time with your daughter sound eerily like my ex's. Are they all the same? I know why you sound so compliant and reasonable in your letters.....you must. I have to play the same game.
Didn't he say people who really want to annoy him call him Dr......? Do that!!! No, seriously, he doesn't deserve "dad".... not while he "owns" your daughter and keeps her from you.
Bless you Anna, you are amazing....your situation is unthinkable, and you are inspiring.
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Makes me sooo curious to see what his answers would be!!!!
I am pretty sure what those would look like-- a very long very dismissive and "rational" e-mail "explaining" the answers to the questions in the most insulting tone possible. With some self-aggrandizement thrown in there. It is so tempting to ask rational questions of N's! And those questions make so much sense. And it would be soooo frustrating to hear his answers.
I am with the subversives on this one-- don't give him a clue what you are thinking and definitely don't ask him what he is thinking :) We pretty much know anyway: Me superior, everyone else not so much. If he wants you to call him King Daddy, I would do it for now while you secretly plot...
A lot of stuff in his manner gives me the impression he feels he has all of the power. Why does he feel this way? I am sorry I don't know the whole story. But does he really have all of the power over the situation? His cockiness bugs me... Is there some subversive way to take some of that power away?
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A lot of stuff in his manner gives me the impression he feels he has all of the power. Why does he feel this way? I am sorry I don't know the whole story. But does he really have all of the power over the situation? His cockiness bugs me... Is there some subversive way to take some of that power away?
hi vunil and all :} you can see im sure, why his manner is so difficult. i love that 'off with the head' thing! > its perfect.
ive been working hard all day, working at my business, one thing i know is i need to make more money to get anywhere.... all your responses have been thought provoking and helpful.... being here is like getting ointment on a chemical burn........
i have thought a lot about these responses and will answer more tomorrow to explain some of the reasons he thinks he is able to act as he does. he does always demand all power, not only over what you do but also how you think and how you feel. (as you can tell)
he is some kind of uber-N. before i knew about N i always comparred him to charles manson. he is hypnotic and mesmerising and demands control of not only actions but emotions and thoughts, and he is absolutely ruthlessly brutal in getting that control. utter submission is all that is acceptable. nothing is EVER good enough. he is also brilliant and very very cold. its not a good combination. i really appreciated all of your responses and like i said it was just like getting ointment on a very painful burn. theres a lot id like to share that will explain the details further, if you can take a little more venting. its not a very delightful story!@
thanks soo much for all your responses. talk more tomorrow. (((((((all)))))))
d's mom
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Hi all:
...theres a lot id like to share that will explain the details further, if you can take a little more venting. its not a very delightful story!
No worries Anna. Vent away. As it feels comfy to do so.
GFN
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Hi october!! im finally got a break and can get some answers back on this thread. thanks so much for answering me :} it just really means a lot not to feeeel soooo aloooooone!!!!
Can you not enforce this month stay? If it is agreed with the courts, can they not have a say in this at all?
unfortunately that was our agreement -originally-..... but its not the one enforceable by law. becuase they knew the judge and called in a favor - (they did) the final ruling was that all contact between us was 'at their discretion'. :( :( :shock:
if they dont like what i do on any given day, they dont have to let me have any contact at all...... not by phone, not by mail.. so pretty much i have no legally enforceable rights at all. :( they could decide tomorrow i never see her again. as a matter of fact they came very close to sending her to boarding school, right after they took her! i raised a big stink and they were forced to stop those plans. the only reason i have any contact at all is just force of will and kissing -ss. so, i dont really have any choice but to take what they give.. right now. :(
its painful for me, but they dont even stop to think what it does to delphine... kids need to know what they can rely on.... they do not exist to be used as bait. but thats all she is to them. shes just a big fat peice of anna-bait. :( shes been there three years and shes never gotten a birthday party.
doesnt that suck? my stepsisters little brat has parties with twenty kids - and my daughter is expected to -babysit- them - but she doesnt even get a -cake- on her own birthday. ive even bought birthday stuff, invitations and plates and napkins and things and mailed it, telling them to let me know 'how the party was'. (hint hint) she tells me she 'wasnt allowed to use them'. its just blows me away. maybe i should have let her go to boarding school..... :?
It must be very tempting to get your daughter for those two weeks, and take her abroad and stay there. Fantasy is a wonderful thing!!!!!!!
you know it!!!!! :} i think about that all the time! theyd find me though. hes too rich and has connections. so, i have to do what i do within the system for now :}}
And if I were you I would continue with the first name; he is an adult; you are an adult. First names are fine. Ignore the rest.
If you go back to 'dad' you put him back into the parent position, of power. I don't think that would be a good move. Well done for making him reveal his true self!!!!!
thanks october :} im with you. i think i'll stick with first names for now. theres no reason for otherwise. he gives me no reason.
thanks so much for letting me talk some of this out :}}}}}}
anna + delphine
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What will you do now?
Obviously not call him ‘Dad’! or maybe you should? If you call him ‘Dad’ from now on, he’ll think he’s ‘won’ but then he’ll reconsider and know you’re just doing it to take the mickey out of his insecurity. Yeah, call him Dad, that’s what he wants and it will show that actually, it doesn’t even matter to you. In fact, it might be worth doing a really over-the-top apology. “I’m so sorry, I didn’t realise that my calling you Dad was so important, I hope I haven’t upset you Dad.” :D
Maybe not. But I don’t know. Dealing with people like this, whatever we do will be interpreted in their own crazy way so we might as well do as we wish, if it helps us.
hi Portia :}
thats the bottom line... there is nothing i could do that would ever be alright. the only thing thats 'alright' is that he calls the shots, whatever those shots are. he would bitch if i said the sky was blue... i could say two different things on two different days.. the only thing important to him, is that im doing what he tells me.
any kind of apology, wouldnt really fit in the context of our relationship.... he knows i hate his guts for one thing.. and i think i would die from throwing up too much..... 8)
he cut me out of the will, put me on the street and did the whole "i have no son/daughter" thing more than twenty years ago.... so for him to make any fuss over what i choose to call him, after all of this, is pretty out of place on his part.
Also I guess you’re not a ‘personal friend’? Oh I could go on about that email. But what’s the use.
I know! he was so confused he didnt even know what he was talking about. that STILL makes me laugh like crazy. its very very rare to see the 'underbelly of the beast'. that was a rare and fulfilling glimpse.
The important thing is what will/can you do about the 2 weeks vs. a month?
nothing i can do. i just have to get the resources together to either challenge their guardianship, or change the terms. that will take money, and guts.
thanks for helping me out and letting me talk. i appreciate all your advice and comments and friendship. in real life i feel like a leper a lot of the time.
take care portia
Anna + delphine
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Wow, talk about a dismissive tone! I get similar e-mails from my mom-- I call it the "off with her head!" approach. Royalty has spoken.
you nailed it! > off with her head! exactly. ive collected frogs all my life.... i like frogs. when they first did this, for some reason they gave me this awful ceramic frog, that had no head.
i still dont know why. ive wanted to smash that thing more times than i can count. right now its buried in my closet but it would be really nice to smash the cr*p out of it. i really felt thats what it symbolised. my powerlessness. off with her head. ick! :evil:
In the e-mail it is pretty clear what this man thinks of your desires and opinions. He even pronounced HIS idea (and by contrast, not yours!) "reasonable." Thus spake him.
bless you forever for recognising that. a lot of people are fooled by that 'reasonableness'.
As for the "don't call me Bruce" thing, it was sort of funny at the end there-- almost like he was pulling back in a way, a little teeny bit aware that he was sounding ridiculous. Not that he can ever truly be aware of that. But even that part of the letter had the "I am not(w) declaring from the throne" tone to it. Certainly isn't a conversation, is it? You don't get to decide what to call him with your own mouth. I guess he's in charge of that, too.
weve never had a conversation in 39 years... i am so not kidding..... not... once.... ever..... thast why its so ridiculous he thinks i should call him 'dad' or anything for that matter. he doesnt know a thing about me.
he edges from narcissism into cult leader frequently. he really feels he gets to tell people what to think -and- feel. he truly believes that..... other peoples lives, feelings, problems, opinions, are mere annoyances.
communication is totally a one way street with him. im just so glad others can see that.. finally....
almost cant believe it.... only sorry there are -others- like him......
take care vunil
Anna + Delphine
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Hiya Anna: What if you were to ask him a few questions such as:
"What is a dad?
Is it just a title, or a way to act/behave toward a child?
How do you feel when I don't call you dad?
How do you feel when I do call you dad?.....
Makes me sooo curious to see what his answers would be!!!!
hi GFN. :}} (first of all about editing the names: im not concerned about that. but if others are, i'll respect that. )
about your questions..... yup that was my first feeling.... id love to ask questions like that...... id love to know..... they are normal questions that normal humans would want answered... thats why of course, i could never ask him any of them........ :} but, they are definitely the questions that first came to my mind......
his answers would be to either totally ignore me or probably totally ignore me. he wouldnt even waste his valuable time with being dismissive or condescending. just an icy silence. no doubt about it. :(
But...........you are wanting something from him......a month visit with your child.......and he is demanding something from you....to be called dad. I wonder if it might be possible to trade?
"Since I want to visit my child for a month, and since you want me to call you Dad, do you think we could trade? I love my child and I am her mom and the agreement was that I will visit with her for one month. Are you my dad? Do you love me? Is that why you want me to call you dad? How about if I visit with my child for one month, as agreed? I could call you dad, if you acted like you loved me/understood love for a child and showed it by doing what was agreed. How about being like a dad to me?"
its something to think about............... im thinking about how i could work that into the 'conversation'. if he keeps being irked by me calling him bruce maybe i could find a way to work it in. i could certainly honestly tell hm that i dont see that hes acting like a dad in any way at all and that if he wanted to act more like a dad, id be happy to call him one. pretty much, we only talk about twice a year, in emails like the one you saw. so theres not a lot of talking going on.
but id have no problem saying that......
This might just be me venting on your behalf.
i appreciate that :) :) :)
(You can always call him dad without meaning it!!) :evil:
hes such a jerk. like mum says:
Nidiot.
Nasshole.
Npoophead.
Njerk.
Ncreep.
i think ill call him what i feel like.. 'bruce' is perfectly cordial. he can shove it up his --- if he doesnt like it. theres no way he can say to anyone thats its disrespectful. i think i will call him very politely (hah) bruce, and if he doesnt like it, maybe he will treat me better. (unlikely) if not, it will bug the crap out of him and that will make my day.
thanks gfn for all of your support.
A + D
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I don't think it's unbelievable or even surprising. You provoked him by calling him Bruce and he reacted. You must have known he wouldn't like it.
hi bunny.. thanks for your comment.
actually, i was -totally- surprised..... i had no idea he 'cared' in the least.... he is being very 'dog in the manger'-ish about it.....
i notice a lot of people here have very difficult relatives and a lot of problems with them, but still maintain a relationship where calling their parent by their first name might seem out of place or strange.. but that isnt how it is in our family.......
they actually disowned me, (and my brother also), cut us both out of the will, before we were both 18....... so, he said twenty years ago or more, that he didnt want me as his daughter anymore.. we had no contact after that at all, even when i was in the hospital needing surgery for a brain injury... my friend called him by mistake not knowing 'how things were' and my father hung up on my friend.... not knowing if i was even going to live or not.
so, he very much didnt care about having a daughter in the least, for the vast majority of my life. i struggled through a helluva lot and he was noooooowhere around. for most of my life, i referred to him as 'the jewish nazi' no kidding. (no offense against any nice jewish people.)
sooooo its really pretty hypocritical for him to make any fuss about me calling him 'dad' or not, after all of that.... i really think.
the only time we ever had what i thought was any kind of relatonsip was when he was 'buttering me up' getting me vulnerable to get my daughter... so i guess that was pretty much an act... and after that, its all been in the context of him kicking my ass legally and in every other way and treating me like sh*t.
we only talk maybe twice a year and its all i can do not to tell him what i really think. sooooo..... i think hes pretty lucky im polite enough to call him 'bruce' frankly.... if he is going to be 'offended' at something so stupid - i think he needs to grow up and deal with it.
i mean really. get a life!!!!! hes sixty something years old and hes gonna get a bee in his bonnet over something that stupid?????? we have a very icy relationship and hes lucky i call him bruce at this point. the reality is, it makes him look at what a crappy father he is, and thats what bugs him about it.....
you know.
anyway .... just explaning. thanks bunny :}
Anna + D.
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hi gingerpeach, what a beautiful name.
Maybe you should call him Dr. G and then he'd really know how you feel. I mean if you call him Bruce, you're admitting to being his "friend."
eek!!!!
i hadnt thought of that.
My exNH always signed his cards and notes to me .... " Love from your husband John Smith." Even love letters. Like maybe I wasn't sure which John was my husband? Weird.
You have my sympathy. I hope that it won't be too long before your daughter is able to make her own decisions with regard to where she lives.
they are all the same... how very weird. maybe he just like seeing his name all the time... urg.
i pray everyday, that she will see the truth and be able to get away herself. they are brainwashing her heavily, like she is in a cult. they learned alot about abuse, since i was a kid..... they are a lot more sophisticated.... they used to beat me and stuff that was very easy to know was wrong.. but with her, its very subtle and 'reasonable' and they have convinced her they are the 'normal' ones and everything they are doing is ok and normal... while hurting her on these really subtle levels that are really hard to detect and report.....
she is very confused and basically brainwashed becase the things they do are so very subtle and smooth. its even more scary than when he was just an out of control drunk like he used to be. :( and i think its going to be much more damaging in the long run.. eventually she is going to discover how they were just using her, and all of this was lies, and its really going to mess her up. im not looking forward to that.. although, i really want her to find out the truth too.
instead they are just grooming her to believe that being treated like crap is normal. its tough to watch, and i hope she can get through it. it helps her if i can stay strong, and being here is helping me stay strong already.
thanks a lot for the wishes gingerpeach.
A + D.
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Anna, your "father's"emails about time with your daughter sound eerily like my ex's. Are they all the same? I know why you sound so compliant and reasonable in your letters.....you must. I have to play the same game.
Didn't he say people who really want to annoy him call him Dr......? Do that!!! No, seriously, he doesn't deserve "dad".... not while he "owns" your daughter and keeps her from you.
Bless you Anna
hi mum. :) ! hope you are doing ok. i think they -are- all the same. its a sickness!!!!! it infests their brain. all they want is to pass it on to others. its so gross.
can you imagine. i hate being 'compliant' like that. i want to tell him where he can stick it. but.. i will have to wait a few more years......... when my daughter finds out what they really did to us.... im not sure how long it will take.. but when she finds out....she will not be happy.... at all.... they can act nicey nicey but they cant keep it up. one day she will see the whole picture and she will be piiiiisssseeeddd off.....
even if i have to wait until she has her own kids.. one day she'll understand, what they did. when she finally has her own kids she will fully understand.
its just sad that they have to do this, waste her life, waste my life. its sad.
thanks for your help mum. hope your doing ok.
A + D.
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H. Call him ‘Dad’ – he’ll know you don’t mean it and that you’re doing it to patch his weak spot. That will irk him. That you’re strong and he isn’t.
Dear d's mom,
I only have 30 seconds in front of my computer this morning, so I will write more later---but when you email this SOB again in the future, what would happen if you addressed him as "Dad"--with the quotes included? If you really wanted to get to him(or just have a little fun messing with him), I think that the quotes would drive him bonkers, because they imply that you don't think he has or is behaving in a manner worthy of having that title bestowed upon him. I also think he would deem the inclusion of the quotes to be condescending(and N's hate being condescended to! they always need to feel superior). It would take some of the power away from him, maybe?
Just a thought---I know that you have your daughter's welfare to consider above all else, so I wouldn't want you to do anything to compromise that. Keep fighting the good fight---I'm sending my thoughts and good wishes your way.
PQC
(((((d's mom))))
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Anna,
I understand that your father is extremely abusive. I'm just saying that your decision to write a letter asking for more time with your daughter, calling him "Bruce" for the first time, was almost certain to backfire. It sabotaged the intent of the letter. The point isn't the name Bruce but the road you embarked upon, of provoking him while asking him for something.
bunny
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Hiya Anna:
I'm going to try not to vent (after this) here for the moment. Not that I don't want to vent with/for you. Just that I'm trying to use my noggin for more than a toboggan, as the saying goes.
shes just a big fat peice of anna-bait. shes been there three years and shes never gotten a birthday party.
And he....and I don't say this lightly, as a matter of fact..I dislike labels and labelling people without the proper credentials to do so, but he......
.....is behaving as a
sociopathiologicallycruelsickevilmindedNinfectedsadisticpowerhungrycontrollingcutthroatheartlessba#$%^rdbraindeadwickedselfishvilenutbar...
if I've ever heard of one.
But.......the bottom line is ...what do you want most?
1. To bug him by calling him whatever name you choose?
2. To play his game against him by making him "think" he's winning and giving you "crumbs" you ask for?
I agree with Bunny. It's p@#$%ing him off when you call him Bruce. No matter how tempting that is......the more important, more pressing, more essential thing to worry about is getting what you want in regards to your daughter. Whatever crumbs the...........
(put adjectives of choice here______________________________________________________________________________________________________)
decides to give, for now.
Until you are able to beat him in the courts, in the system...and get what you want extended to something reasonable (not crumby...pun intended).
You can call him whateverthe____you want, later.
For now......don't let him goad you into behaving the way he wants to present you to others.
Kill him with kindness.
GFN
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Very sorry to put that big long thing in there and widen up this screen.
Had no idea that would happen but I guess that's what it did??
Ooops! :oops: :oops:
Is there a way to fix it, I wonder?
GFN
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oooh, GFN, good post (width notwithstanding)!
I agree that getting back at him would be super-fun. But let's go for the big guns-- getting the daughter back, and then maybe something else I haven't thought of yet. But definitely custody. Good first step... And we can call him all kinds of fun stuff here on the board!
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But.......the bottom line is ...what do you want most?
1. To bug him by calling him whatever name you choose?
2. To play his game against him by making him "think" he's winning and giving you "crumbs" you ask for?
.....For now......don't let him goad you into behaving the way he wants to present you to others.
hi guys.. i appreciate the venting and stuff..... (but not the widened screen though! but the vent was cool) i think you are missing the point though a bit...
im -not- calling him bruce to bug him. thats just a byproduct. you saw from my original post, i was -totally- surprised at his reaction. he -disowned- me 20 years ago. he left me on the street to DIE. doesnt that kind of say he doesnt -really- care about being my 'dad'??. thats not just 'abusive' - thats legally giving up the right to be someones dad. he -disowned- me.
i didnt do what i did beucase of anything except my own honest reaction to not giving a crap anymore. it had nothing to do with getting any reaction or bothering him... it was just an honest expression of who i am these days, and personally, i -didnt- think he would even notice it. it just shows how ridiculously ovesensitive he is and hung up on meaningless details.
i call him bruce when i talk to my therapist, i call him bruce when i talk to my daughter, i call him bruce when i talk to my mother. its part of the wall, that protects me from them. its been that way for months and months. i do it for me. as far as i understand, the 'requirement' im supposed to follow in communications to him, is being 'cordial'. so within those boundaries, what i wrote was totally and completely acceptable. theres nothing he can 'present' to anyone in what i wrote, that he can label as un-cordial in the slightest bit, and he knows it.
he knows perfectly well i hate him. can he not allow me a single shred of self respect and dignity? ive kissed his ass for three years and he still treats my daughter like dirt, so the entertainment value is really waning.
ive held my tongue til it made me sick..... ive played that game, very very well.... and laid enough real-time groundwork that everyone is starting to see that I deserve more respect than hes given me. theres not one person in my real life, who feels that what i call him, is of the slightest concern. i told you i ran that letter by my mother, who is a professional writer, and she didnt even mention it.
ive played this situation like a poker hand. im no dummy you guys. my self respect tells me its time to stand up, and let him know that i am his equal. ive carefully and purposefully shown to everyone involved by my actions during these years, that i deserve that respect. NOONE can say im unreasonable now. he is stuck. he is very much starting to look like the bad guy and the unreasonable one himself. two years ago, not deferring would have definitely compromised my position... as of now, i think it will strengthen it... i need to show him, im an adult, im his equal, im standing up for myself, i expect and deserve more respect from him.
the biggest reason it actually bugged him, its actually something that gives me personal power, but that he cant (and he knows it) point out to anyone as being 'crazy' or 'unreasonable'. its actually a perfectly cordial and appropriate thing to say on my part. thats why it was such a powerful thing to actually do. he said it himself, he is called bruce by 'personal friends'. :}> there actually wasnt a damn thing wrong with it, except that it makes -me- feel better about myself, and lessens his one-upsmanship. he -cant- use it as evidence of my 'unreasonableness'. i think thats why it was so powerful.
sometimes you just have to face the monster and thats what im doing. if i continue to grovel more than i need to, he will continue to treat me like dirt more than i deserve. ive carefully shown by my actions, including kissing a -whole- lot of ass, that i deserve consideration. so if he doesnt come across, HE will start to look like the unreasonable one. him being irked, is a total and complete byproduct. its also HIS responsibility, not mine. if i were to 'defer' in this situation, without him giving me some concession in return, it would be pandering to a bully, and thats a very bad idea and leads to escalation of bullying.
the advice you gave, to play the game no matter how sick it made me, -would- have been very appropriate two years ago, when i was much more vulnerable and he had more control.. and thats definitely what ive been doing, and thats why im so damn sick right now, honestly. but at this stage, i have laid that groundwork and its now time for me to stand up a little and take some of what i earned. not only that, but he has shown me by his reactions, that 'playing the game' his way doesnt really get me anything but more disrespect. and thats the truth.
you guys also missed the point, that im getting -two weeks-.
i called him bruce and pissed him off, but i got the longest visit ever out of it. so.....?????? two weeks isnt a month, but its a lot longer than any visit weve had in the past.
so im not so sure it was a bad idea. sometimes, you have to call the bluff.
bullies -are- cowards. he is terrified of me. and I have proven by my actions]/b] and a lot of hard work that I deserve respect. if he doesnt give it, -he- will look bad. so I feel like getting up off my knees for awhile.
i hope that makes sense. i really appreciate your input. this is a complicated situation like all family situations are, and your advice was good, i just think im at a different stage now. i hope you can understand where im coming from. i -am- playing the game... believe me. im playing with everything i have.
thanks so much all i really appreciate the thoughts
Anna
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Hey, Anna--
Part of the problem is we don't know the whole story, which sure does seem complicated. AND we can't know your personal needs. Absolutely, if you got something out of calling him Bruce, however small, and it didn't seem to hurt you, then cool! I just want some big old victory over him, too. One month, and then forever....
I understand your expectation that he would respond some way that looks halfway rational. And he sure isn't! He is definitely an asshole.
But maybe he does respond to being pushed back. I alternate between the avoidance and the push-back tactics with N's (pushing back primarily at work, where you have to). Sometimes pushing back does make it less fun for them to be terrible to you and they go find someone else to pick on. If you think that's true of Bruce (why call him dad here?) then maybe it is worth it to be a little up in his face now and again. It's hard for us to say... I do think you should be as up in his face as possible through legal means, which I know you are doing.
Anyway, mostly it isn't our words that matter, it's what is beneath them, which is:
{{{Anna}}}
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Hey, Anna--
Part of the problem is we don't know the whole story, which sure does seem complicated. AND we can't know your personal needs. Absolutely, if you got something out of calling him Bruce, however small, and it didn't seem to hurt you, then cool! I just want some big old victory over him, too.
wasnt somebody saying something about steel toed boots awhiles ago...?// :twisted:
i think i may avoid the whole thing by calling him nothing whenever possible. why not?
its really no skin of my nose one way or the other.
i could address it to 'that asshole that lives down south' for all i truly care!> he'll probly be ticked if i just dont say anything either. he just likes to be ticked. it really had nothing to do with annoying him.
it was totally 'serendipitous' that that came out of it.
But maybe he does respond to being pushed back. I alternate between the avoidance and the push-back tactics with N's (pushing back primarily at work, where you have to). Sometimes pushing back does make it less fun for them to be terrible to you and they go find someone else to pick on.
one thing true, is that ns are predictable in -some- ways...
they have big blind spots and -can- be played.....
im trying to learn how to play -him- the most beneficial way.....
its kind of like baiting a bear....or bullfighting.. (bullshitfighting?)
Anyway, mostly it isn't our words that matter, it's what is beneath them, which is: {{{Anna}}}
ohhhh.... your a dear sweetie. thank you. :oops:
{{{((((vunil))))}}}
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{{{((((& all))))}}}
thank you.
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If you got what you wanted (a longer visit) then who cares if he wrote an angry email about being called Bruce. I thought you had NOT gotten what you wanted. So I was pointing out the ineffective strategy. If it actually works, keep doing it.
bunny
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If you got what you wanted (a longer visit) then who cares if he wrote an angry email about being called Bruce. I thought you had NOT gotten what you wanted. So I was pointing out the ineffective strategy. If it actually works, keep doing it.
ah -- makes perfect sense. i got it. yes no i was just commenting, on the irony of his reaction, and also how unusual it is to see him actually break facade like that.. i guess maybe people thought, i was complaining and wondering why it -didnt- work... which wouldnt have been too smart of me.... no actually hes been unusually compliant this past week. they even let me have my phone calls ontime.....
thank you - :}
anna
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Anna: never mind about the name calling thing. I'm surprised that no one said this yet: IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT NAME YOU CALL HIM, HE WILL FIND SOMETHING TO HATE YOU FOR NO MATTER WHAT. Sorry for the screaming capitals....but I know this guy. I think we all do in some way.
He will ALWAYS find something to be pissed at. It's the way he lives. You are his favorite target....what he is doing to you and your daughter is evil and he knows it but it doesn't matter. His soul is rotting away.
There is no rhyme or reason. You noticed a ridiculous reaction to calling him by his first name.....that's all. If it pissed him off and derailed something....well, how the hell are you supposed to know? From one minute to the next, they change the rules of their little"war" anyway, so forget about it.
My ex gets pissed if I say the word "home" referring to my house. Out of control pissed....and if the kids make that mistake, all hell breaks loose.
It's insanity. We all know there is no arguing with a sick mind. You just try and duck the flying debris, and look at the larger picture....tough with our hearts (children) involved, but it will save us all.
You are right. He may "win" these little battles he sets up, but he has already lost the war.....he has no soul, your daughter WILL come through this, and so will you. My ex is systematically alientating our children by allowing his controlling wife to discipline them, by manipulating them as through they were toddlers, and by demonstrating rage and anger at every turn andmostly, by HATING their mother. He's already lost. My kids are really nice people, not at all like him, and not interested in being like that.
He said in front of a mediator once: "I don't care if these kids turn 18 and say 'fuck you dad, I never want to see you again!', but I will have influence over them NOW!"
Well, guess what....my son turns 17 this week....and I doubt my daughter's going to wait that long!!
You will get her back Anna..... you are the best mother she could ever hope for, and you will be able to see the damage undone....you will make it so.
(((((Anna))))))
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Hey Anna,
If just calling him Bruce got you what you wanted and caused him to be unusually compliant, think what you could accomplish if you started addressing him by that supercalifrajilistic name GFN had for him on the other thread. Just kidding, but I bet its tempting. :wink: Not sure it would fit on an envelope though. :?
I once read a quote which I've always found wise; I think it was some coach.
He said "Always be like a duck. Calm and unruffled on the surface, but paddling like hell underneath."
Hoping you can stay just ducky, Anna.
:D
mudpuppy
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Hoping you can stay just ducky, Anna.
:D
you guys are the bestestestestest!!!! hows that for making up a word :) :) ??
:} :} maybe i will do like hurricanes and call him a different name every time, alphabetically... ??... :lol:
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Anna,
My guess is that Ol Doc Bruce is jealous of the mother-daughter relationship you have and is using any means possible to derail it. The man is evil and obviously self-loathing, but since he can't admit that, he shifts his loathing to you and your daughter.
I think you have the patience of Job and I might have hired Sonny and his boys to plant Bruce's feet in cement and put him at the bottom of the Potomac a long time ago. (As I said earlier, I'm not sure what I could be capable of if someone was keeping me from my children :evil: ).
Hang in there kiddo. You're the only hope that little girl has.
(((((((Anna)))))))
Brigid
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There is no rhyme or reason....... From one minute to the next, they change the rules of their little"war" anyway, so forget about it.
i totally and completely agree. the ever-changing rules, the un-meetable standards. most definitely the bottom line.
its really a disincentive for trying to meet them.... as my friend used to say 'i dont like this game - i want to take my ball and go home'!!!!
My ex gets pissed if I say the word "home" referring to my house. Out of control pissed....
geez......... its just really pathetic honestly, except for when they have their hooks in you..
He may "win" these little battles he sets up, but he has already lost the war..... My ex is systematically alientating our children by allowing his controlling wife to discipline them, by manipulating them as through they were toddlers, and by demonstrating rage and anger at every turn andmostly, by HATING their mother.....
He said in front of a mediator once: "I don't care if these kids turn 18 and say 'fuck you dad, I never want to see you again!', but I will have influence over them NOW!"
its beyond understanding. really it is. its sad, its pathetic, its tragic. really tragic. like someone taking flowers and crushing them into the dirt. valuing life, valuing love, valuing family, its so tough to reconcile people like that, who not only dont value it - but actively try to crush it where they see it......... dont they know what they are wasting???? squandering??? thats where you have to take a cosmic perspective i guess. it doesnt make any sense that i can figure out. maybe i will try to breathe for them. i guess that since love is the most powerful thing, its the thing they would hate the most. that makes sense.
You will get her back Anna..... you are the best mother she could ever hope for, and you will be able to see the damage undone....you will make it so.(((((Anna))))))
i feel like crying..... but im just relieved...... this place is the first place in three years i could actually discuss this without being accused of being paranoid, or too sensitive, or too negative, or too angry, or or or or or....... most people wouldnt even let me bring it up. this is a turning point emotionally and i really, really needed it. i guess your right. we'll all get through.
i keep thinking, there must be some reason. how can i turn this so it makes her stronger in the end. thanks mum. you got me all teary :cry:
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that none of it's about you or your fault...a normal Dad would be so grateful and proud to take care of you.
Now what about starting a journal or even a novel: Dear Doctor Goldreyer ( the things I didn't do which annoyed my father )
I sigh and shake my head so often lately...all I know is we're dealing with society's most difficult and damaging people.
If I though it were positive I'd channel hatred to them...but having been around people who aren't anywhere near human, I cherish my humanity.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Anna:
I agree with Mum. It would not matter what you called him, what you did, he would find something to hate you for. Also in the future, as Mum pointed out, children will no longer be children and will have a mind of their own. N's may have control over your and Mum's children now, but now is not forever. Oh, they will care ok when they become ill, aged, and alone. The looks are gone, wrinkles setting in and no young 20-40 somethings are attracted anymore, no friends to speak of except the hangers on if there is money involved. They will have all the time in the world as they age to look in the mirror and deny deny deny and they get to do it all alone.
The best revenge is living well (not necessarily talking about money), being happy and having that life they will never have. People that surround you, that love you and that you love back, N's will never have.
Patz
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anna, there is a character in the tales of king arthur - i'm pretty sure - whose name was Sir Breuce Sans Pitie.
Sir Bruce the Pitiless.
Sound about right?
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anna, there is a character in the tales of king arthur - i'm pretty sure - whose name was Sir Breuce Sans Pitie.
Sir Bruce the Pitiless.
Sound about right?
yes.... exactly. totally.... ironically, he is a cardiologist - a heart surgeon. he slices peoples hearts open all day - physically, and emotionally :roll: one of the things you do in open-heart surgery is stop and start peoples hearts. before surgery you need to actually stop their heart.. and then after surgery you start it again. so its no wonder hes a megalomaniac. what better excuse to think you are 'god' than starting and stopping peoples hearts. it went to his ego.
also 'bruce almighty' defnitely fits. he wore a t-shirt in the 70's that said 'legend in my own mind'.
i put this in the 'unbelievable' thread beuase, it continues to be 'unbelievable'. i wrote that child services had made that visit and werent too hapy with what they found.
well since then, they have straightened up a fair amount with regard to making calls on time, etc. well today, right on time, i got the notice of plane tickets scheduled for her visit this summer. no fuss, no games. unprecedented.
i dont trust them anymore than i would turn my back on a viper - but its very very funny to watch them squirm like this.
i wrote my mother (depressed enabler with head in the sand) and she was very interested that child services had been there. i figured her out today... she is impressed by people with credentials.... thats why she defers to my father even though he screwed her so bad.. the fact that this worker with 'credentials' was out there has her quite interested.
she mentioned she had seen d. recently and she had told her some about her 'alter egos' and being harassed by older boys. she as usual was clueless and has no idea any of this might be abnormal.....
but she mentioned a friend who knows me too, who works with 'at risk kids' and I'm trying to figure out how to get her to impress upon my mother that all this stuff is far from normal and actually signs of dissociation and a bunch of other stuff... my mom trusts her and might listen to this lady if i could show her whats going on.
sooo what this is all going towards is that, it feels like some type of critical mass is finally approaching....
they are -definitely- 'running scared' on some level. it is absolutely fascinating to watch..
he may be sans pitie but he is -not- sans cowardice......
i have an emamil of my mother telling me that when she was in therapy with my father, the therapist told her bruce was 'not a good candidate for therapy' becuase he was likely to 'tell the therapist whatever he wanted to hear' and 'still cling to his maladaptive ways' that sure sounds like a dx of N to me. the little beads are piling up on my side, dammit!@!!!!!!! :twisted:
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Hey,Anna. Someone told me a joke, once, and your post reminded me of it:
Question:
"what's the difference between surgeon and God?"
Answer:
"God doesn't think he's a surgeon".
I too, have felt that things were starting to shift. Keep with that feeling...it creates more and more good things. Save that email (like I have to tell you that, right?)
Happy you have plane tickets in hand. Did you get the right amount of time with her? So glad the wind is changing.....the answer is blowing there (thanks Bob Dylan)....
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Question:
"what's the difference between surgeon and God?"
Answer:
"God doesn't think he's a surgeon".{/quote]
love that one! 8)
I too, have felt that things were starting to shift. Keep with that feeling...it creates more and more good things. Save that email (like I have to tell you that, right?)
Happy you have plane tickets in hand. Did you get the right amount of time with her? So glad the wind is changing.....the answer is blowing there (thanks Bob Dylan)....
past three nights, dreamed about plants.. lots and lots of sprouts, seedlings, gardens, starting to sprout, grow, bear fruit............. they gave us two weeks this summer. longest visit yet.
all these tiny miniscule imperceptible efforts... patience.... waiting... brick after brick after brick in the wall.... waves after waves wearing away the stone. good thing we are the type that keeps faithe hm.? build build build build. :} little ant moving the rubber tree plant.
its good to remember hm that things happen where you cant see them... plants are growing but a lot of it is roots, underground..... then one day.... you are picking vegetables or tulips or basil..... ps my favorite song ever is bob dylan 'tangled up in blue'.
stay cool mum! 8)
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Hey all:
Hi Anna:
So glad to hear "the times they are a-changin'". :D Little by little, things will continue to get better. That's my great hope for you and your daughter.
Your garden will be growing lot's of good things, especially during your 2 weeks with your daughter this summer.
Still keeping you and she in my prayers.
GFN