Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: N-Jaded on April 18, 2005, 06:45:22 PM
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I am new to this board, some of the postings brought tears to my eyes. I believe my husband of only 3 yrs. to have N-traits. How does one know for sure? I've been reading so much about it, thy head is spinning. Our relationship at present is strained to say the least. Has anyone here ever confronted their N of their thoughts or feelings? Or is it better left unsaid? Thank-you for your time.
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Welcome N-jaded,
There is no way to know for sure that someone is a narcissist. Usually people observe that their spouse/parent/etc. is so selfish, so unconcerned about their feelings, so self-involved, that the term narcissist applies. Talking about to him about narcissism is not advisable. What's going on in the marriage?
bunny
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Has he always been this way? Or is it just recently?
If he's going through a rough patch maybe you could discuss how offensive his behaviors are becoming towards you.
If he's a N it won't matter if you confront him....b/c he'll probably just turn it around on you and make you out to be the bad guy.
Good luck.
Mia
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Thanks for your reply Bunny, My spouse is very selfish, I feel as if he feels our marriage is a financial arrangement, he doesn't touch me anymore, said he doesn't care if he ever does again. Everytime I try to share my feelings he seems to take it as a direct assult and becomes quite defensive. and can be quite cruel. He lies...about little things and I don't understand why, he is quite manipulative. he goes to great lengths to convince me of his truths, brags about belongings, and such. I see him cry over television shows like that extreme makeover home show, but yet last week at his sisters fumeral he didn't shed a tear. I feel like he hates me. So I pretty much live in the family room downstairs and he stays upstairs, we don't talk much anymore. I am in a positon where it would be quite difficult for me to leave financially. I have started counseling, tried to tell the therapist what I was feeling but don't feel he believes me. I guess if you don't live with it, it does seem far fetched. The one thing I've never seen is the self love, or comparing himself to God. I am rambling on here, I think you get the picture.
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N-Jaded,
The grandiose, godlike behavior isn't required for narcissism. Your husband sounds seriously narcissistic. Can you leave this therapist and find someone who is more capable? This therapist sounds incompetent and useless. (sorry)
bunny
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Bunny,
Possibly as he is in a group, (but it would be within the same group) which our insurance covers. It won't hurt to try.
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N-Jaded: Three years into my marriage with my ex, I felt as you did. He happened to be having affairs, but the behavoirs were similar. I was terrified of leaving, worried financially mostly, but in my case, things never got better. Sure there were some better times....children, etc, but the treatment was the same if he wanted it to be. He called the shots, I gave him power over me.
I do not regret, as that is a pretty useless emotion, leading to some dark thinking....and also because I have two incredible children from that horrific marriage. BUT, unless you want to go ahead and have some potential children with a total child/bully who will use those kids to torment you endlessly..........ask yourself what you want. Is this it?
Don't you deserve a better version of love?
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Yes, we all deserve to love and be loved. Perhaps it is the nurse in me that finds this all so sad. I want to help him, but realize it is not possible. Our children of seperate marriages our grown adults now and yes he as allianated them. So now he uses our dog to threaten me. I know I need to leave as I no longer like the person I have become- somedays I don't even know her.
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Hi N-Jaded
I know I need to leave as I no longer like the person I have become- somedays I don't even know her.
This is very telling to me. In my own marriage, I feel that I have grown because of and despite the relationship. Never with the help and support of the relationship. I woke up one day and realized that I did NOT like the way I was behaving. I felt out of control and decided I had to change, because I was not OK with acting that way. I am still struggling with the actual leaving part, though. Keep posting and let us know how things are going for you.
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I can't stop crying...I still find this all so very sad. Our loved ones were not born this way. From what I understand this damn disorder is apparently a result inflicted upon them from a painful or horrific childhood. Burried so deep, they themselves can't recall it. Why then do we condemn them if they know not what they do? I am so trying to make sense of all this. I do feel sorry for him. I also feel so very sorry for his grown children and am considering sharing my thoughts with his adult daughter to help her gain further understanding of her terrible upbringing. Again, thank-you for letting me vent.
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N-Jaded, it is very sad. The only thing that separates "us" from "them" is our childhood experiences, which were totally out of our control. :( However, as adults we are all responsible for our own behavior, regardless of our backgrounds. As adults no other person is capable of determining our behavior for us.
I do think we tend to slip into talking about the person, when we are really talking about the disease or the behavior. This is one reason why many people avoid labels altogether. I personally find labels convenient shorthand. It is still up to me to keep in mind the distinction between the person and the disease/behavior. Sometimes I do that well and other times not so well.
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N-Jaded,
Why then do we condemn them if they know not what they do?
I don't think we condemn them. I think they condemn themselves. Yes, they have been injured and they have a suffering they can't really accept. But many of us come from injuries as well, but have managed to come out with our empathy, sense of decency, and caring for others intact. I don't know why that is. You could live your life trying to save this man, but you would disappear in the meanwhile. You would be caring for him, but he would not be caring for you. Very rarely are they willing to seek therapy and actually work through the issues they have.
You are going through a very difficult time right now. Many of us have been where you are and know first-hand that level of pain. It does get better and the fog does begin to clear.
God bless,
Brigid
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Hi N-Jaded,
I am new to this board, some of the postings brought tears to my eyes. I believe my husband of only 3 yrs. to have N-traits. How does one know for sure? I've been reading so much about it, thy head is spinning. Our relationship at present is strained to say the least. Has anyone here ever confronted their N of their thoughts or feelings? Or is it better left unsaid? Thank-you for your time.
I know this is very confusing. I understand exactly what you are going through. I felt as if I was in a twilight zone at times when dealing with my ex N. You asked if anyone had ever confronted their N. Yes maam I sure did. We actually had seperated for 6 months when I had a situation arise that I had to be around him. I actually confronted him with the facts that I had gathered and we talked for hours about it.
He cried and began to tell me that he had always known that something was wrong with him but never knew what it was. That conversation drew us back together and he actually confronted his parents about the situation. They are N all the way through and through. His intentions seemed sincere when he promised me the stars and the moon.
The first time he had a chance to shove the whole situation up my ars, he took it and buddy boy he ran with it. He turned it all around and tried to put the blame on me. I ran his family off, I did this, I did that.
So to make a long story short. You can not teach an old fighting dog new tricks. You can't teach someone to have empathy when they have never known anything but selfishness. Trying to teach someone to love is impossible when they are only filled with rage and spitefullness.
I loved that man with every thing I had. If I could have wished him to be the man I hoped he could be, it would have been a wonderful thing. All the wishes in the world could not make him see what it is like to truly love and be loved. I had to leave with what little sanity that I had left.
I can only share my experience and I might also add that I searched for months online to find a success story. A zebra will always be a zebra and I truly believe that a N will always be a N. What you have to decide is how much of yourself are you willing to sacrifice to feed his hunger?
My ex N made a comment to me one time that struck me deeply. He told me that I would never change. I told him one of the most truthful things that I have ever said. I said, "Oh how wrong you are, I changed the second I ever met you. I can't wait until you are just a horrible memory."
I did change from that relationship as I am sure others here did as well. Please don't let him drain the life out of you. Mine almost accomplished this with me.
Take care of yourself first and foremost!
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I dont condemn them for what they do or dont do but I sure in the hell dont condone it either.
My feelings are.....they sure know when someone wrongs them.....so why dont they think when they are wronging others?
They sure know when they arent getting their supply.......so why do they feel they shouldnt have to return attention, affection, etc...
I dont hate N....I pity them. I had a choice to continue to live that life....they have been sentenced to live their miserable lives.
Pity and sadness is what I feel for my N. Hate him...nah...I love him more then he will ever love himself but I chose to love myself more.
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Hello N-Jaded. Welcome.
It is a sad situation...dealing with a person who's acts cause harm but who is not aware of why. :( :( :(
Why then do we condemn them if they know not what they do?
It is not necessary, or our job, imo, to condemn anyone.
It is...however....your job to take care of you. If this person is hurting you day in, day out, and you are feeling unloved, alone, unimportant in the relationship....then it is time for you to look after you. It is necessary to preserve your mental/emotional health.
If he is doing things that hurt you then you must take that opportunity away from him. There are a number of ways to do that....the most effective of which is.....leaving.
I'm so sorry that you are feeling so down and so uncared for. It's a rough thing to come to terms with and it hurts a lot. ((((((N-Jaded))))) --that's a hug.
Keep posting because it will help.
GFN
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I can't stop crying...I still find this all so very sad. Our loved ones were not born this way. From what I understand this damn disorder is apparently a result inflicted upon them from a painful or horrific childhood. Burried so deep, they themselves can't recall it. Why then do we condemn them if they know not what they do? I am so trying to make sense of all this. I do feel sorry for him. I also feel so very sorry for his grown children and am considering sharing my thoughts with his adult daughter to help her gain further understanding of her terrible upbringing. Again, thank-you for letting me vent.
I think we're looking at the inner workings of a narcissist so that we can make decisions about how to deal with them. People will avoid the decisions they need to make by analyzing the N over and over. Even after they make a decision and take action, there may be some second-guessing, guilt, ambivalence, etc. I don't think it's condemnation but a way to stall for time or process ambivalent feelings. Your talking to his adult daughter is a way of stalling for time, because she can't tell you what to do. It's also an indirect way of telling him he's a narcissist by telling her that he is one. That's my observation - what do you think?
bunny
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Bunny,
His daughter has told me some about her childhood..nothing good. She has many unanswered questions. Am I wrong for feeling that by telling her it may somehow be therapeutic for her? Her 5 yr old son was just diag. obsessive-compulsive w/mild autism.
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Does he have Asperger's Syndrome N-Jaded?
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I can't stop crying...I still find this all so very sad. Our loved ones were not born this way. From what I understand this damn disorder is apparently a result inflicted upon them from a painful or horrific childhood. Burried so deep, they themselves can't recall it. Why then do we condemn them if they know not what they do? I am so trying to make sense of all this. I do feel sorry for him. I also feel so very sorry for his grown children and am considering sharing my thoughts with his adult daughter to help her gain further understanding of her terrible upbringing. Again, thank-you for letting me vent.
I think we're looking at the inner workings of a narcissist so that we can make decisions about how to deal with them. People will avoid the decisions they need to make by analyzing the N over and over. Even after they make a decision and take action, there may be some second-guessing, guilt, ambivalence, etc. I don't think it's condemnation but a way to stall for time or process ambivalent feelings. Your talking to his adult daughter is a way of stalling for time, because she can't tell you what to do. It's also an indirect way of telling him he's a narcissist by telling her that he is one. That's my observation - what do you think?
bunny
I can understand what you are saying N-Jaded. I know you are trying to help her understand why her childhood was the way it was but.....
IMHO it could also be your way of validating your experiences with him aws well. I don't know if I phrased that right but what I mean to say is that it is at times surreal when you are dealing with this stuff. I can remember thinking "what the F** just happened here?" It was so bizarre at times that I think I sought out answers or validation that it wasnt just me that thought this was off the charts.
Also, plz remember this. You are talking to an individual who probly searched for years for ways to try to please that man. This is no exception. Every thing you tell her could be used as ammunition if she decides to use this experience to gain approval from her dad.
If I were you, I would confide in a trusting friend who has nothing to gain from you N. This will give you neutral input and everything you say will be confidential and safe within your trusted friend. I am not saying this would happen but it is exactly what occured in my situation.
It appeared my ex-N sister was the only stable one in the family. Her and I became friends and when the chit hit the fan I confided in her. Eventually I learned that the little girl that so desperately needed attention within her family was the driving force in this adult. Every word I said was twisted as she told lie after lie to gain a "Thats a girl" from her N family.
So please approach her with caution. I agree that you did the right thing by putting the bug in her ear. However this can be so overwhelming that it becomes obsessive. Maybe a trained individual would better help her deal with the long lasting affects of this tangled web they weave.
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His daughter has told me some about her childhood..nothing good. She has many unanswered questions. Am I wrong for feeling that by telling her it may somehow be therapeutic for her? Her 5 yr old son was just diag. obsessive-compulsive w/mild autism.
It wouldn't be so much "wrong" as misguided and inadvisable. It's not your place to be therapeutic to her. If she brings up her childhood again, if it were me, I'd ask her if she ever considered seeing a therapist.
bunny
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N Jaded:
I really don't where we are in the midst of this conversation but I can say I am very sorry for whomever was diagnosed with autism. The parents will need all the help they can get. Sorry I wandered into the middle of a conversation on this board. I cannot help but respond to those who have autistic relatives. It is very devastating. I notice it is a 5 year old. Hopefully the child will get the early intervention that is required. If I can be any help, please let me know. Again, I apologize for the interlude. Patz
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Hi again N-Jaded:
Just wondering how close/long your relationship is with his daughter? Did you raise her, as a step-daughter? Do you feel like she looks to you as a mother?
These things might influence your decision as to how to proceed with her. If you feel very close and like her mom because you've spent years raising her as your own, you will want to think of what you would do if she were your own child? Would you speak with her about this?
If you feel sort of distant, not really like a parent, more like a friend, or less, then your decision will take that into consideration and you will probably not really feel comfortable acting as a mom to her.
In any event, a therapist might be the best thing you can suggest for her because she has stuff from the past and tough stuff now to deal with.
My thoughts on it. Glad you are still posting.
GFN
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Thank-you all for shedding a new light on this. I have known Jen for only 5 yrs. and she lives quite a distance from us. She is a very loving child. And the last thing I would want to do his hurt her anymore. I suppose not raising her I do feel more of a friend to her. Jaded, I am curious as to why you asked if the child had Arsperger Syndrome? I have been thinking that since he was 18 months.
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Hi N-Jaded:
Sounds like she has weathered well. Even as a friend, you can let her know that you care. Or simply let her know that you are there to listen, if she ever wants to talk. You don't have to necessarily give her N info. now. Maybe later?
How are you doing N-Jaded? Are things going any better for you now?
How are you holding up?
GFN
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It is still very difficult. He lives upstairs and I down. We don't talk anymore. We are in limbo. We co-exist. I am scared, very sad, lonely and mad at times. Still cry often but now it's not tears of pity for him it is for the life I thought we would share. My heart can't catch up to mind and I miss him terribly even though he hasn't left. Does that make sense?
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Dear N-Jaded:
Still cry often but now it's not tears of pity for him it is for the life I thought we would share. My heart can't catch up to mind and I miss him terribly even though he hasn't left. Does that make sense?
This makes absolute sense. You're mourning the losses you didn't have but dreamed you would have. Those are still losses. You wanted a happy life together and now....you're not even on the same floor.
This is very sad and you would naturally feel alone. It does make you feel mad too because you've probably tried very hard to make those dreams come true?
It's scarey to think of what might happen next. You do seem somewhat separated already, by your living arrangements. Is it a financial worry to take it a step further?
The reason I ask is because it's like dangling candy (want to say poison candy-but I don't know your husband so how can I say that?) infront of yourself. Him living a few steps away but unreachable. You had dreams of a nice life with him and now part of that dream is just hanging there, and your mind tells you, maybe, that you can't have it? It isn't going to happen?
((((((((((((N-Jaded)))))))))))))
You're doing good.....getting those feelings out. Able to acknowledge them and express them. That is good. You're not closed up and numb.
Can you do something just for you today? Take a nice long bubble bath, go for a nice walk, go get a movie you've been wanting to see, or a book to read....inbetween grieving.
To give you a break and let you know that you are not giving up on living.
You can make your own life, your own new dreams, your own healthier emotional state but not all in one day. How about a small thing...just for you? To help yourself feel something nice or good?
GFN
Your heart is hurt and
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Got cut off there somehow :?
Your heart is hurt and your mind is trying to tell you stuff that your heart is not ready to hear. Eventually, it will catch up.
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Thank-you all for shedding a new light on this. I have known Jen for only 5 yrs. and she lives quite a distance from us. She is a very loving child. And the last thing I would want to do his hurt her anymore. I suppose not raising her I do feel more of a friend to her. Jaded, I am curious as to why you asked if the child had Arsperger Syndrome? I have been thinking that since he was 18 months.
I am a trauma flight nurse. I pick up on medical details no matter how small they are......this sucks at times cause my mind goes 24/7 diagnosing..lol
Anyways....the main reason I picked up on what you said is because my son was diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome. He always had very strange obsessive behaviors that were there since birth. Most of his OC behaviors came from sensory malfunctions. He would not or could never eat off of paper plates....drove him nuts. He would get goose bumps just thinking about it. He would throw fits when he was smaller over the feel of certain socks, he chewed obsessively on objects. There wasnt a pen in my house that wasn't knawed on. I also noticed that he had repetitive movements. He would lay down on the floor and put his head on the floor and crawl in circles. He had anti-social behaviors which made it very difficult for him to fit in. The only diagnosis we could get was ADHD.
I was shopping one day and overheard this woman talking to another lady. I stood there as she described her sons behavior and couldnt believe it. The description she was giving of her son fit my son to a T. I followed her and asked for the specialist name. Adam was formally diagnosed and this Doc was wonderful. He explained how ADHD is associated with Asperger Syndrome and also how this is a form of Autism. So...bottom line is this. Most Autistic children has repetitive behaviors which can be misdiagnosed at times as OCD. When all that is occuring is related to nerve malfunctions which causes repetitive actions...
Shew....long winded on that one....sorry boys and girls. I just couldnt explain it without the loooong version....eeeek!
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Jaded:
Yes, welcome to my world of autism. I understand everything and anything you have been through. I was fortunate in that I worked in a psychiatric setting in a hospital. The physician I worked for put me in touch with a specialist by the time my son was 3. Thank God for that. The specialist helped me to raise my son, my husband lived in total denial. It was hard. Really hard. There is light at the end of the tunnel inasmuch as the N is deceased. I am making a life for myself and son. It has not been a bed of roses but at least there is no more chaos. I hope this does not sound cold and like an N. Patz
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(((((((((Jaded & PatZ)))))))))))))
I don't know first hand what you ladies are going through. I am a Nurse as well an have taken care of many autistic children and young adults. I know you have faced many trying as well as many happy times. May God continue to bless you both through this journey.
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Jaded & Patz,
I was very interested in what the two of you wrote about the Asperger Syndrome. My son was diagnosed ADHD at age 5 and has been on meds since that time. He has been very well managed, has been a very good student--graduated in the top 7% of his highly competitive class and is now in college doing very well. However, he has always had oral sensitivites to certain foods (could never eat fruit or anything that felt wet in his mouth), can't stand having tags in his clothes, used to be very sensitive about his socks. He also can't be working on a piece of paper without tearing the corners off, always twists his napkins, chews pencils, etc. I know there is a link with ADHD to autism as well, so I guess it makes sense that he would demonstrate some of those behaviors. Obviously, none of the behaviors will truly affect his life in a negative way, but it was just interesting for me to see why he does have those behaviors. We sometimes tease him that the "little rat" must have been chewing on his papers again and he has always been able to laugh at himself for those behaviors, but I should probably be more sensitive to his inability to control that.
Thank for this interesting discussion.
Brigid