Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: dogbit on April 22, 2005, 08:23:22 AM
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I've always been prone to panic attacks since I was a little kid but as I grew older, I was able to choose my environment which helped a lot. In January, 2004, I picked up the clothes on top of the dryer and walked out of the house leaving Mr. Entitlement behind. It was a moment when I just knew he was going to finally get me. Get me in what way, I was not certain but the hate, rage, and paranoia had reached a point where I knew he was completely irrational and I was the target. We had been married 23 years and I knew from the start there were problems but I was no different from anyone else and thought I could make everything better. Prior to leaving, my therapist who I had met through my daughter's counseling and who had a few sessions with all of us told me after finally going to her by myself that she strongly suspected NBPD and gave me some books to read and kept supporting me. I can't describe the horror I felt when I finally knew what had been going on for the entire marriage. I've read so much here that I won't go into a lot of details because the pattern is so predictable and I was the perfect "non". After I left, I spent a good 6 months being so scared, I wasn't functioning. I couldn't figure out why I was so scared and what was I scared of??? I would wake up in the morning, take some xanax and go back to bed until it kicked in. Then I could get out of bed! I didn't want anyone to see me because I thought they could see inside me and see how defective I was. But I wasn't sure what the exact defect was. I would ask my girl friend whom I have known for almost 50 years who I used to be. It's now been almost a year and a half and the divorce is still not over. He refuses to give up financial information and court time is precious in my rural area. We do finally have a date in a few weeks. I do have a good attorney. I have not been able to go back inside my house to get my personal things. He won't let me in and changed the locks on the doors. I have gotten the sheriff to escort me in to get my clothing. Legally, he can't do this but this is what he has done.and to take time and money to fight just my being able to go into my house would take time and money away from the divorce process. Emotionally, I think? not having my "stuff" leaves me feeling even more vulnerable? Plus, I can't work because all my equipment is in that house...So maybe that plays a part? I think it is playing a part now but in the beginning, the panic was really paralyzing. The panic right now doesn't last all day like it used to but getting up in the morning and going to sleep at night is tough. I hope this isn't too disjointed but would like to hear if anyone else had/has this problem. And, does it eventually go away? Thanks
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Hello Dogbit:
You are showing the full extent of courage! Congratulations!!!
To act, regardless of your fear and keep going is inspiration to all who are not doing that. Truly, you deserve to be free of fear and pain and are doing what is necessary to achieve that. I just want to give you that credit and encourage you to keep on. This won't last forever!!
I have never suffered from panic but I just recently read a book that might get you on the way to healing....even a little. It's called:
"I'd rather laugh" by Linda Richman.
It seems to me the most pressing issue is to get your equipment so that you can work. This will help to bring some "normal" back into your life.
I'm glad you have a good lawyer and I hope he/she will do all possible to help you with this.
I wish I had something more helpful to say to you. All I can tell you is to keep putting one foot infront of the other and things will get better.
(((((((dogbit)))))))
GFN
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(((Dogbit)))
Panic attacks can be so crippling. I experienced my first one...I guess 7-8 months ago. It was terrifying.
I just recently told my primary doc about them and he prescribed Xanax.
Now that I know what is happening I try to talk myself out of them. I repeat to myself, "OK it's just a panic attack and it will pass". This approach helps a little for me maybe it could for you too.
I really haven't sought any help other then telling my primary doc. This past month hasn't been as bad. (knock on wood)
You say that you go back to bed. For me that intensifies my panic. I try to immediately search for a task even if it's as simple as putting the dishes in the dishwasher. It takes everything in me to focus on the task but it helps with the panic.
I will pray that your divorce settlement process will pick up speed and that you will be able to recover your property. Try telling yourself that your stuff is just that, stuff. It's all replaceable.
You managed to salvage the most important thing of all....YOURSELF.
Know that you made a step in the right direction and know that you have the support of everyone here.
I went through a hellish divorce with my X N too. It was a real battle and I am still battling with him (issues with children). We can help eachother get through the torture that N's love to inflict.
I wish you all the best.
Hang in there.
Mia
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(((Dogbit)))
When my ex N husband passed away I experienced anxiety and panic for about 2 and half years. I would awake in the morning with this black cloud and it would mushroom into anxiety then panic. Thinking he was coming back, what was going to happen to me on and on. I still experience major anxiety especially when I "voice" my opinion or speak on my behalf. I can understand some of what you are going through. Going to bed seem to make mine worse. Sometimes I would awake in the middle of the night shaking all over. A mild antidepressent seemed to help. I really had a hard time making decisions etc.
My heart goes out to you as you try to navigate the legal system. Try to take care of yourself so you can get what belongs to you. If there is some simple pleasure that revitalizes you, indulge yourself and often. You have more strength than you know. Much love
Patz
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Hey guys, watch those benzodiazepines (Xanax and friends).
Your body *can* become accustomed to them and then a drop in blood levels of them *can* trigger something like a panic attack. And then you have to work your way out of it by slowly reducing the dose, etc...
I was given Xanax prior to my surgery so I could sleep - had about six weeks of it - and I found I had to halve the dose and break up the dosing, and could only take it three nights a week, with one night off in between. Otherwise, I got hit by panic like an anvil dropping on me, just about X hours post dose.
Dogbit(tles)... have you tried green tea? [No, honest to goodness I do not own stock in Liptons or Bigelow's.] You might need to use the caffeinated variety, some decaffeination processes could also remove theanine, which is the calmative agent. And besides, tea doesn't have as much caffeine as coffee. It mostly has a related compound, theobromine, which is milder.
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A short course on methylxanthines:
Caffeine, theobromine, and theophylline are all related compounds called methylxanthines. Theophylline is the 'strongest', and is often prescribed for asthma. Caffeine also has similar, milder effects on the bronchial system, and so does theobromine, which is why many asthmatics really crave coffee or tea. [I'm asthmatic, never knew it till my mid forties, and had a coffee habit from about 13, which is why I never knew it.]
Coffee=caffeine, tea=theobromine. I can't remember where theophylline came from offhand. Mostly generic pharmaceutical companies, these days (grin).
***Exposure to high levels of either caffeine or theophylline can cause apprehension, feelings of panic, etc.***
****Certain herbs and drugs can limit the body's ability to process these compounds quickly, causing them to build up. Ginseng is particularly effective at this and *can* cause coffee drinkers to get major caffeine jitters in just a couple of days.****
*****Theophylline can be quite toxic on overdose!!! Stay away from ginseng if you have to take theophylline!!!!!*****
It's harder to get similar reactions to theobromine... possibly because tea is even more diuretic than coffee. But possible.
Sorry... herbology has become a real hobby of mine, and people tend to forget that both coffee and tea are herbal products!
I'll go away quietly, now.
Storm
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Hi dogbit,
I was reading your post and for some reason the overwhelming feeling of sadness came over me. I think of how selfish N are and I also wonder why it seems like it always has to end like this.
It has often been my thoughts that they act like complete ass's when a breakup occurs because they still maintain the control and it forces you to still stay in contact. I was in the same situation that you were. He held my stuff and I had to continue to cooky poo poo him to try to get my stuff back.
Long story short, I told him to shove my stuff up his ars. I said I would rather be homeless & living in a box naked then to have to listen to his cokka any longer. He said he would throw it out in the trash or burn it......my response was.......go for it you bleeeeeep.....I can always buy more stuff, so flipn nanna buubuu....Im one up on you arshole. I lack personal belongings which can be replaced, you lack friends, family, self respect, a conscience, and a heart....cant replace all those now can ya.
I decided my sanity and my damn self worth was way more important then my Tommy Hilfigers. Besides that, every I had woiuld remind me of him. Every pair of jeans would make me think of comments he made about them. Like how fat I looked in a pair of jeans. Mind you I am 5'6 and 120 lbs. So he can keep the jeans and if he happens to have any memory left he can remember me fat in those jeans.
Also hun, Im not a psychiatric nurse but it also sounds to me like you might be suffering from Post Tramatic Stress Disorder.
You be the person you always knew you were dogbit....not the person he tried to convince you that you are.
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Not trying to be a medical know it all here butttt.......
Caffeine of any sort can trigger anxiety. Caffeine is a stimulant and any stimulant has peeks and vallies when you come off of it.
Also you should consult your physician before taking any herb. Herbal products can interact with prescribed medications with horrible consequences.
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Yipes, I forgot to include chocolate.
Chocolate is loaded with theobromine and may be the source of theophylline too. The theobromine is what makes it so toxic to dogs and cats... they don't have the enzymes we do, to process this class of compounds.
So, ginseng doesn't get along with coffee, tea, cocoa, or theophylline.
Plus, any of the 'conazole' antifungals *can* do something similar. They gave me fluconazole to take after I came home from hospital, because of all the antibiotics I (finally) got. The label said avoid theophylline, and my brain was partly switched off, so I remembered coffee and tea but forgot about cocoa having theobromine in it, and ugh did I feel lousy till I figured it out.
that's all folks.
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And Jaded is exactly right. Always check interactions. But remember, a lot of traditionally trained doctors are uninterested in this stuff or afraid of / threatened by anything they weren't taught in school, so they will not advise you in an unbiased manner. Best bet is to look for someone with both traditional and pharmacognosy training, so they have the science to understand the whole thing.
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Thank you everyone. I only drink one cup of coffee a day and Praise the Lord, I have not become addicted to xanax. I've been prescribed it for well over 10 years now and have had to throw many away because they went past the expiration date. For me, just knowing they are there is enough most times. My MD doesn't like this type of drug either because of the addictive aspects. She did however prescribe Wellbutrin which made me so jittery, I could not continue with it. And, Jaded, my T says I am indeed suffering from PTSD. Taking a xanax and going back to bed for 30 minutes actually allows me to get out of bed. Weird but true. I have actually spent two days in bed worrying and brooding and just plain scared and then hunger drives me out to the kitchen. And, Patz. Making decisions is really hard right now. I'm so afraid I'll make the wrong one and then Mr. Entitlement can say see, I told you....she's stupid, crazy etc. I think maybe my real problem is that I have always been very capable. I've even flown the Good Year Blimp! I've chased bank robbers into parking garages, ducked bullets during hostage take-downs..etc. etc. ( I worked in TV News, please don't hold that against me :wink: ) So I'm even more critical of myself since this situation seems to have me totally snookered. I think when I am not panicked, I am mad at myself. I'm mad because the panic keeps me from doing things. OK...new question: My T says in ordinary circumstances I would not need any meds. OK....I agree. And she says I will just have to wait this one out and be good to myself. My panic says there will be no more "me" left and that this will never end. I think the fact that my n mother did not leave the house for over 20 years because of some kind of anxiety thing is really scaring me also. However, she still managed to control all of us. I think it's helping just to put this in writing but still want to hear what you think. I don't ordinarily whine and snivel (which is how I perceive myself right now) but I'm really scared. If I can't pull myself together, how can I advocate for myself with my lawyer....and in court....oh the list goes on....thanks for listening.
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dogbittles, did your mom take valium? it has similar side effect problems...
glad you tolerate alprazolam well and have low caffeine use...
actually, i admire your guts as a live journalist. you went unarmed into incredibly risky situations. that takes even more guts than police work does.
((((((((((dogbittles))))))))))
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I think maybe my real problem is that I have always been very capable. I've even flown the Good Year Blimp! I've chased bank robbers into parking garages, ducked bullets during hostage take-downs..etc. etc. ( I worked in TV News, please don't hold that against me :wink: ) So I'm even more critical of myself since this situation seems to have me totally snookered. I think when I am not panicked, I am mad at myself. I'm mad because the panic keeps me from doing things.
hi dogbit(tles) :} cool about the blimp... im sorry about feeling not great... i think the paralysis about decisions comes from they way they make you fear retalilation.. if you get habituated to retaliation no mater what you do, it can get paralysing, and you lose faith in yourself... like learned helplessness.... :(
but - you do sound all kinds of capable usually.... theres some techniques ive heard of for panic, one of them is breathing very deeply.. as a journalist doing all that stuff you must have techniques for staying calm?? like breathing deeply through your nose. sometimes i have done math to re-focus. the entire time i was sitting in court, swear to god, i was counting by threes in my head. (im not great at math :) ) it was keeping me calm. also ive heard of wearing a rubber band on your wrist.
you wear a rubber band around your wrist and SNAP it against your skin. that can bring you back down when you are going off into your head...... i guess everyone feels and responds to panic differently. im also one that needs to just get in bed sometimes. i think with your mom, and all those of that generation, a lot of people never got out of bed becuase they didnt have the medicines they do now. if it werent for medicines invented in the last ten years or so - i would be one of those that probably did not ever get out of bed :( my family would never understand why either.
those are just ideas i thought of reading what you wrote.
take care :}}
anna
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I knew you all would come through for me. I think the crux of the matter for me is what Patz and Anna have mentioned: Making decisions and fear of retaliation. Storm....the cops would beg to differ with you about who is in most danger :lol: and thank you for the complement. (We were not allowed to carry guns so I agree with you!) When my adrenaline is up, I have no fear. But if I know I have to go across a bridge I experience sheer terror. But in looking back, my terror about bridges had a lot to do with why I was crossing that bridge. For example, when I lived in Boston, I had to go across the Portsmouth, NH bridge to get home to visit my n mom. Palms would sweat so badly I would have to wipe them off...Once I even turned around and went back to Boston. Maybe it had a lot more to do with visiting Mom? And in San Francisco, the Bay Bridge is 7 miles long....I actually would occasionally call in sick if I knew in advance our assignments meant going across it. But I was also working with a lot of very self-absorbed, dominating, macho types and to say anything indicating weakness was a big no-no especially if you're the only girl! (The damn thing collapsed during the '89 quake affirming all my fears!) I'm trying to be kind of funny but this is a real issue for me. I hate feeling incapacitated by fear especially when I don't know what I am afraid of. But you really have me thinking about fear of retaliation and fear of making a decision that might bring retaliation. Currently, my husband is trying to "kill" me financially so I will acknowledge his entitlement to control, superior intelligence and my error in actually leaving him. I suspect that this might be the mechanism that creates the panic especially because being anxious seems to have come and gone in my history. So now I have to remember what seems to bring it on and then maybe I'll know why I really am scared. Thanks for listening ... I feel a lot calmer. And the green tea really helps also. My dog drinks chamomille tea. Sleeps like Rip Van Winkle after her nightly cup.
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Dogbit: just catching up with your thread tonight. I'm sorry you married a giant puckering ......
But I am glad you are getting away. I understand your fear.
I suffered, to a lesser degree, debilitating fear as you described...brought on by contact with my ex N husband. I am fairly certain my children have the same types of fears in regards to their own relationship with him. I still have ongoing court proceedings with my Nidiot (like my new word?) and still an occassional stomache flip when I get a nasty email (like, daily), but I don't stay there with that feeling for too long anymore.
You are under attack. Whether your fear is "real" (as in there is an immediate physical danger to produce a fight or flight reaction) or just imagined (based on experience) doesn't matter to your brain. (um, yours is pretty vivid!)
I foolishly thought that when I finally got up the courage to leave the cheating, lying SOB, that (since it was the SCARIEST thing I had ever done) that I would be home free in the fear department after that. Not so fast!
I didn't realize that NO ONE LEAVES HIM, damnit, and that I would eternally pay for my "transgression". He has commited his life to destroying mine, even if it means using his own children to do so.
When I first realized this, I became extremely depressed and the fear deepened. REALIZING all of this, becoming aware of all of this, was for me, the first step in breaking free. (mind you we have been divorced since 96 and these realizations are only in the past year....I'm a slow learner)
Stepping OUT of myself, as it were, and looking at what was going on inside my head, as an observer, was essential for me to understand and then move past the pain and fear. I am not "healed" forever....pain and fear will plaque all of us as long as we breathe, but USING the pain, looking at it, saying it sucks, it's scary, I don't know what to do with it....is the first step in moving through it. Through it. Not around it, over it, or ignoring it, but right straight through it!
The right information, the right words, the right book, person, concept, will come your way, now that you have opened to the possibility of having something different for your life. There is so much help, so many who have come through the fire, that you are sure to find the help you need out there (or even here).
This is your path. This pain is part of you....don't reject it or deny it or try to hard to fight it. Pain/fear is a tool, neither good nor bad. It's a symptom or sign to make us NOTICE something about oursleves....or to learn something. It's not meant to be a way of life....it's not meant to be our life purpose. You recognize that, and that's why you left thejerk and why you posted. This fear, this struggle is not all bad.....It could be the making of you. Well, actually it already is.
It's the "lumps in your batter" as Debbie Ford would say...all lumps that when mixed in make a delicious cake...you (corny, I know, but a nice thought)
Here's to you....getting throught it, lumps and all. Sending you light and love.
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Hi Dogbit and all:
.... I will acknowledge his entitlement to control, superior intelligence and my error in actually leaving him. I suspect that this might be the mechanism that creates the panic especially because being anxious seems to have come and gone in my history.
These thoughts: "He is the most worthy of the control", "He is more intelligent than I", "I made a big mistake by leaving him", etc. are very powerful and most certainly...induce a negative, downward spiral of thinking.
We all do it. We don't all have panic attacks or paralyzing fear all the time but we all let ourselves get thinking in this direction, sometimes.
Sometimes, this is a good thing because we admit our powerlessness over others and might actually end up examining some of things we can do to change ourselves/reactions/environment, and decide to make changes for the better=life happier for us.
And sometimes, this accelerates into a whirl wind ride into the deep abbyss, that is full of terror and seems impossible to pull ourselves out of.
The trick....is to catch oneself.....thinking stuff that has this potential.
Literally arguing with oneself....mentally....and correcting unrealistic thoughts.
"He is the most worthy of the control".
Over what? The world? Your mind? Your future/happiness??
Maybe he has a good bit of power over the money, right now (just guessing here) but so what? Money isn't sanity. Money isn't life and freedom and emotional comfort. Money isn't happiness. Ask anyone who has lot's. He won't always have all the control. There are legal ways to take some of it away. And if not, let him cuddle and love his money. You have your life! Your sanity! You future and your own potential to create your own happy life ahead of you. AND YOU ARE WORTHY OF SO MUCH.
He's not entitled to control your life, your sanity, your future, your happiness........you are entitled to that and you are the one capable of achieving your desires. He is definately NOT ....MORE worthy/entitled to anything. You are just as worthy as anyone else.
"He is more intelligent than I".
Says who? What....he's a rocket scientist now? If he was, he wouldn't be so stupid as to treat you the way he did and lose a good relationship/person in his life. He's dumb enough to think that money/other stuff is more important than love or happiness or sharing. He's not so bright, if you ask me.
"I made a big mistake by leaving him".
You did? :shock: What? :shock: You can't be serious! It was one of the most correct things you've ever done (which only you can say that to yourself because I haven't got a clue about the correct things you've done but my bet is there are pleanty of them, if you will be considerate of yourself and take account).
I could go on and on for an hour, debriding each of these statements but I'm sure by now, my point is clear.
It seems to me, to avoid such panic and fear, we must get a handle on the negative thinking that occurs just prior to the attack. Maybe if you can recognize that first unrealistic statement your mind is making, grab ahold of it, and squish it......it will help to turn the tables??
If not.....it certainly won't hurt to try to put an end to this type of berating yourself. He's probably done a lovely job of that for you already and why help him do more? It's time to take care of you!!
GFN
I'm sure you are a much more
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mum, beatifully put! :D & :cry: It never ceases to amaze and reassure me that even though we all have vastly different situations and personalities, the way forward is essentially the same for all of us. A million unique ways to get into bad situations and only one way to get out (through), so we can all help each other out.
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How do I keep doing that? :oops:
I'm sure you are a much more valuable person than he has tried convinced you. You don't have to believe him.
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Sorry Longtire:
I must have been posting at the same time as you.
And Mum, you're attitude is what I see as being the strength/power that helps you "through it". You are an inspirational example for all of us. (((Mum)))
GFN
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Mum, I love your word "nidiot". Now I can just call him a nidiot and still be in the bounds of polite conversation. And I know he's trying to get to me through my children. When I left, I went 90% no contact for self-preservation and he went 100% no contact with the kids. All my kids are adults, by the way, legally. Two are in college and he would pay their tuition but wouldn't provide any financial information so they could get their financial aid. So, and I'm telling this just in case anyone else is in the same situation, my kids used me as "custodial parent" and they used my financial information which was dismal and received a significant amount more than they were receiving. But both schools called me and asked how I could spend more on my basic needs than I brought in and I just told them the situation. Neither school seemed surprised. I think this happens a lot. :) And it was absolutely the scariest thing I have ever done also. I don't want to ask you anything too personal but you mean you keep having to go back to court even after you're divorced!!!! My attorney is asking for a lump sum payout because she knows this jerk will fight alimony and that's fine with me and, again, there are no custody issues. But it still has them afraid. They always knew who he was and were probably in less denial than I but to experience directed to them personally has them scared. They just don't want to be near him. Thanks again...it's sad to know we're scared but it's nice to know I'm not alone....Dogbittles
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Hey, Dogbittles!....and all. I'm always happy when my meaning comes through my writing (and always surprised,considering how I write! :lol: )
So, for perspective, Dogbittles, my ex nidiot calls after being overseas for work, to ask if while he was away, did I remind the children that he was away and that he had missed seeing them for his usual weekend......(he currently gets every weekend)? Because he was surprised THEY chose NOT to see him extra time this weekend (now that he is back). After falling off my chair laughing to myself, I asked him if he was aware of how old his children were (they are teenagers).
I have to deal with him because a year and a half ago, I wanted to move to another state to be with my dying mother, large extended family and fiance (I had a higher paying job, great schools, etc....and Ih ave no family here). He was on an extended job overseas (for 4 months) which he does frequently. Long story short, he won his case, and stopped me from leaving (well, not ME, just the kids from leaving....right, like I would leave without them).
Now he is taking me back to court to reduce his child support. His arguement? He has NO CHOICE but stopping the work he does because it takes him away from his children, and I won't let him make up the time.....and now he makes less than me (I am a teacher!) (its been in two court orders, that HE agreed to, that there is no "make up time").
Anyhow, it just bugs the heck out of him, that his children, who he is used to manipulating and scaring, could be bold enough to choose to follow the approved schedule and not WANT to make up visitation time with him at his house. I let my kids choose, HE wants them to have NO voice (or choose what he wants only). Honestly, if they wanted to be over there, I would encourage them.
These NIDIOTS are the ultimate victims, are they not? "Bullly-babies" is another good term for them!!!
Anyway, that's a bit of my history....but I am not depressed about my life at all. (I was). I found a way out of the bad energy, and so will you.
These guys usually get worse, the more "free" of them we become, but then....who gives a d***? Let 'em get mad. Maybe he will get so mad, his head will explode like those "fembots" in Austin Powers! Anyhow, anger is HIS trademark, not mine.
Hope you are having a good day, bittles (can I call you bittles?)
MUM
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dogbit:
I have come to realize I still am hearing the "tapes" that my N father played. He was very hypercritical. Nothing was good enough. His demanding that nothing but perfection was good enough has been passed on to my brothers. Either I was to fat or to something. I still impose these tapes and if I do not do things perfectly, anxiety and depression set in. I realize this is ridiculous. It is as you stated anything that I do or perform, fear and anxiety set in. The anxiety and fear are a result of what happened when my father was displeased. I was yelled at, demeaned, made to do chores beyond what was reasonable, was shamed. I was not allowed to voice my opinion. The result: anxiety and depression if things are not in perfect order. I impose this on myself, but I know where it comes from.
To a certain extent I still feel as if I am in prison. Unable to turn one way or the other.
I remember having a dream as a child, I think I was about 5. I remember I was dressed in a clown's suit. I was lying under the house in this suit and it was very dark and dank. The most terrifying part of it was if I moved or try to turn or inch from under the house, I was stuck with pins all over. Any which way I moved, I was stuck with pins. I remember waking up crying, I was sleeping in bed with my mother. It was a very terrifying dream. This should tell you exactly how things were for me as a child. Patz
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Patz: wow. your father's abuse and your childhood dream........chilling and terrifying. I am in awe that you are now such a centered, caring person. (I need an emoticon for my jaw still on the floor). How is it you have come so far?
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Patz,
I'm sorry your father was not worthy of raising you.
But I'm proud of what a sweetheart you are now.
Especially when you're talking about fighting for your son.
You took all of your father's lessons and threw them in the trash where they belong and made yourself into the parent your son needed. That's some kind of strength.
((((Patz)))) :wink:
mudpup
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Mum and Mudpup:
I do not know why as I got older why I saw all this N behaviour as not "acceptable". I can only say that my maternal grandfather helped to rear me when my father abandoned our family when I was 4. Just thinking about the ages, this dream must have occurred before my father abandoned the family, or just after he remarried my mother. Either I was 4 or 8-9, in the aforementioned dream. I must have been 8 to remember this.
At any rate my maternal grandfather always took care of all the grandchilden. Even though he was alcoholic, he did keep us fed, housed, and clothed. There was about 10 of us living in a 3 bedroom, 1 bath house. This included adults and children. There was no other place to go. I remember he bought us nice bunny rabbits for Easter. He made cages for the rabbits so we could really take care of them and feed them appropriately. He always cared for animals and plants in a loving way. I suppose he has been my saving grace on how to love people and treat people. More importantly when my mother remarried my N father (my N father hated my grandfather) going back into the N environment made by ezcema extremely bad. In fact at one point they had to send me back to my grandparents when I was about 13 for about a week or two. At that time my grandfather treated my ezcema as it was mostly all over my face, arms and legs. He would bath my skin with cool boric acid crystals (which you can use on ezcema) on a daily basis. This was he way of loving and caring for me. So I would have to say this was the stark contrast that I had to choose from. Even though he was alcoholic (he eventually kicked the habit) he was able to do this for me.
Just being able to relate these last two posts have brought the signifance of what I went through. Sometimes I tend to down play the "oh things really weren't that bad) but they were. It was not so much physcial abuse but the mental abuse. My N father was a master at "mental games". I am trying to remember but at one time, I did confront him with his behaviour and it was over some issue that he had bamboozled my mother over. Maybe as I remember these things I will remember what happened. At any rate when I confronted him, he turned white as a sheet and just about ran out of the room. This is when I took my power back from him. It is interesting I cannot for the life of me remember the issue. It is bound to be important and probably painful. Does this happen to anyone else?
So being strong was not an option. I had to be mentally tough to out last him. My mother was not that strong. She had a "nervous breakdown" when I was about 16 and I had to take care of my two other brothers. She would black out from the anxiety and eventually would become psychotic. She was so ill at one point when she eveutally would go back home to my grandfathers, that it was my Uncle who recognized that she belonged on a psych ward. My father was no where around. She stayed there for about six week. Which in retrospect is a long time for the early 60's . I think part of the therapy was that my father was to go in with my mother. Needless to say that fell through. He didn't even want to pay the bill. I remember that money was tight but you still can make arrangements and pay your bill off. I remember his family did not even lift a finger to come over to help while my mum was in the hospital. I did at that time confront my Aunt (my dad's sister) who was overbearing, demanding, an N about the treatment of my mother. I was only 16 at the time. Needless to say she did not fool with me much after that time.
So this gives you just a little backdrop on my childhood and teen years and the experiences. I can only say that my grandmother taking me to church and I do mean to church every Wednesday night and Sunday was
literally my Salvation. The influences of my grandfathers personality, helped to me to make it through.
I have been told on more than one occasion what an emotionally strong person I am. I tend to minimize that but I guess it is true. I remember when my n husband was so sick with congestive heart failure, the doctor taking me aside and telling what an emotionally strong indiviudal I had to be. I asked why he thought that. He replied "because of how you are dealing with your sick and very difficult husband and also taking care of an autistic child. It takes a very strong person to do that." I tend to minimize this.......as in so just what are the other options? Curl up in a ball and die? No, each problem is a challenge. Most problems have solutions. Given enough time problems do resolve themselves. I have tended to try to get them to resolve themselves in the best possible way and to learn from my mistakes.
If this can help any one, I hope it does. You can make it, if I can.
Much love,
Patz
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Dogbit (I like bittles better), Patz & Mum,
I am just catching up with this thread and I must say that my heart breaks for all of you. I can relate to some of it, i.e. Patz with the n father who was so hypercritical. It is hard to stop those tapes of worthlessness that run in your head. In my case, I had my grandmother who was my only saving grace.
But, thank God, I cannot relate to the issues with the kids. My H just has very little to do with his and I am so grateful for that. It means that they have me as their primary parental role model and I think I'm doing a damn good job. Its the one accomplishment in my life that I am truly proud of and willing to take much credit for. Being a mother has been my one true passion in life.
Fortunately, he has also agreed (after much posturing and fighting legally) to pay me a fair sum of money for a reasonable length of time. He did not want to pay maintenance because I could then take him back to court in the future when he will be making considerably more money and get my fair share. We agreed on a straight cash settlement per month, and I get paid regardless of remarriage. I think the main reason for his finally agreeing to be fair financially, was to protect his reputation (what's left of it) for the sake of his business (I think his family put the pressure on too to protect their standing in the community).
Anyway, I didn't mean to start making this response about me, but to say how sorry I am for what all of you are going through and I am keeping you all in my prayers.
(((((((bittles)))))))), (((((((((mum))))))))), (((((((((patz)))))))))
Brigid
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"Bullly-babies"
Great description! That's really how they act. I've read that a naracissist's development is arrested at age 7 or so but I really think it is around 2 years of age. And, I'm not trying to be funny!
but I am not depressed about my life at all. (I was). I found a way out of the bad energy, and so will you.
Thank you...I really need to hear that some days. And it was bad energy not bad "me". I'm getting that now.
These guys usually get worse, the more "free" of them we become.
Ha! Yes, I think you're right at least in observing his more recent actions. I talked to his sister from whom he has been "estranged" for ten years after locating her on a web site dedicated to finding people who have listed phone numbers. (Since he didn't like her, I could not talk to her while still married...). She was glad to hear from me but her first words were: "You mean he's still alive! I thought he would stroke out long ago from so much anger". She had walked away from him because she was afraid of his anger. Since he had to stop drinking, and since I left, he's like in a 24/7 rage....This is so awful but whenever I hear an ambulance siren, I am somewhat hopeful........Forgive me, Lord...
Dogbittles or just bittles...
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But, thank God, I cannot relate to the issues with the kids. My H just has very little to do with his and I am so grateful for that. It means that they have me as their primary parental role model and I think I'm doing a damn good job. Its the one accomplishment in my life that I am truly proud of and willing to take much credit for. Being a mother has been my one true passion in life.
Brigid...good for you. My stbx had very little to do with mine from the day they were born and I was the primary caretaker and I know I was a good mother and I love to say that because I still have a lot of problems giving myself credit for what I have done well...but I am getting over that :D . My kids were "adults" when I left and they actually all encouraged me to leave...It was a mixed blessing. I probably could not have done it without their support but I was so sad that they knew who he really was and is. I thought I was keeping a lid on everything....denial, denial, denial... Bittles
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Patz,
Thank you for sharing that story. Your Grandfather was you life-line and by standing up to your Father, you learned the spunk that helped you advocate for your son. You know, you say your Grandfather was an alcoholic but he still was loving and responsible. Maybe he was self-medicating which I don't blame him...jeepers, he must have had to really gather every ounce of strength each day to keep on taking care of his family. But it made me remember something my Dad told me. He said everyone on his side of the family (they were all kind of strange in different ways....lots of bi-polar stuff) drank until they were around 50 and then they all stopped. Doesn't that sort of say that by the time you are 50, some of the bad guys have died or left or you were able to leave and then you didn't have to drink anymore! Just a thought and I'm glad you had him. Dogbit
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Bittles:
Thanks. I loved my grandfather very much. I think he was self medicating inasmuch when he stopped he had a great deal of nerves and anxiety. He was also about 55 at the time. It is very strange I can tell you the date he passed away May 14, 1983 about 10 AM but I cannot tell you the date my father died. He died sometime in June of 2000. My grandfather was 72 and I really can't say how old my father was maybe 71. In other words I cannot tell you some vital things about my father without looking it up, on the other hand I know exactly about my grandfather. So this should tell you the significance my grandfather played not only in my life, but also in the lives of his other grandchildren.
I remember times if someone came to his house, if they were hungary, he would set them down on the back steps of the house and share what we had with them. He would buy shoes for people who were down on their luck. I am sure the responsibility of taking care of us all made him drink. He stopped drinking when he retired as many of the grandkids had moved on. There were still about 3 grandkids left at home when he retired.
I still have pictures on my dresser of the old home place, my grandfather. No pictures of my n father or his family. They do not exist.
Never minimize love over quanity. Love wins every time. We did not have much but the one thing we did have at my grandfather's house, you simply cannot buy. My n father and his family where such losers. Losers in every sense of the word. What mattered to them leaves no legacy, no memories.
Patz
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Patz...I'm crying a few tears with you. We have very similar backgrounds and you have described it beautifully. Bittles
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Mum said:
Let 'em get mad. Maybe he will get so mad, his head will explode like those "fembots" in Austin Powers! Anyhow, anger is HIS trademark, not mine.
Yeah, baby! :wink:
How fitting since N's are nothing but robots.
Mia
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My kids were "adults" when I left and they actually all encouraged me to leave...It was a mixed blessing. I probably could not have done it without their support but I was so sad that they knew who he really was and is. I thought I was keeping a lid on everything....denial, denial, denial... Bittles
Oh, bittles, don't be sad about their awareness - be relieved - it's a gift from God. They may be spared what you went through, and they will hopefully not be compelled to re-enact his script, either.
((((((((((Bittles))))))))))
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Oh, I'm not that sad....mostly sad for what might have been. You know the common wisdom is that parents always want their kids to go farther than the parent has. My kids are lots more people/relationship smart than I was so all is well ... And I do not have asterisk syndrome! :lol:
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I do not have asterisk syndrome! :lol:
Bittles, I'm glad you don't, because ***at's da risk*** we take when we post here! :shock: :lol: :P
((((((((((bittles))))))))))
BTW, thanks... do you know how nice it is to be able to goof around in a safe place? yeah, you probably do. have a great day, bittles.
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Bittles, I'm glad you don't, because ***at's da risk*** we take when we post here! :shock: :lol: :P
Good *one Stormchild! **Now that's my*** kind of humor. ****Anyway, I**** don't think **********you need to****** worry about********* AS being contagious.*************** I certainly*** don't have**** a ***problem with***** it, I can**** stop anytime******* I want! :wink:
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I giggled for about 5 minutes, Longtire. Thanks!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Bittles:
Be happy that your children encouraged you to leave. I was trying to get my mother to do the same, but she was not strong enough emotionally. I tried to push her over the edge by telling her a secret I had kept from her with regard to my n father for about 20 years. I think she was just on the cusp of leaving to move in with her sister when she passed away.
She passed away a broken hearted individual, staying around 40 years for the n crumbs that my n father tossed her way. He remarried within 10 months to his mistress that he fathered a child by. By the way, the child he fathered he never took care of either. He was just looking for someone else to take over my mother's job........taking care of him.
My n father had many affairs. The secret I finally told her was......I was finally home from college one summer and the phone rang. I answered the phone and for the life of me I do not know why I answered it as my mother. The person on the other end asked to speak to Mrs. So and So and I replied that I was she. The man on the other end said "Please tell your husband to stay away from my wife." I replied, "What makes you think my husband is seeing your wife". Well the man replied, "I found checks made out to her by your husband." I told the man at that point I was not my mother but the daughter. The man replied "Oh, I am so very sorry I have let this out and you are involved." I simply told him that this was not a surprise inasmuch my father had never been faithful to my mother. Bare in mind he was writing checks to this woman but yet he could not help me pay for my college room and board? Yep a total N.
I decided not to tell my mother because she would not leave and it would continually hurt her. I waited to tell her when I felt she was wavering about not leaving my N father. So don't be sorry about your children encouraging you to leave. Your very life depended on it. Your N ex is a very sad creature that even his OWN children recognize him for what he is. From my point of view this does not bode well for his old age. Of course him being an N, he is like Dorian Grey, destined to never get old. Yet when he finally looks into the picture, he will see nothing but an old shriveled, warp blob imitating a human.
Patz
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Patz...Thank you so much! I was just sad that I could not make it work. But, it was really a time to let go and let God. Your father sounds a lot like my husband and "The Picture of Dorian Grey" is a book I often think about when thinking about my husband. His image is so important to him. I'm sorry about your father. My father tried to leave my mother at one point and just couldn't do it. I often wish he had. He only had a year and a half after she died and the last six months of it were spent being quite ill. He knew what she was but I guess in their generation, there was an honor code that obligated him to stay with someone who couldn't even cook her own meals. I remember one time asking him if he thought I was like her. I thought that whatever she had would hit me at some point and I would become her clone. He said no, I was not like her at all. Thanks, Dad...but it was mixed with resentment because he left me alone with her for all of the eighteen years before I finally left. I'm not such a great Christian. I can forgive him but not her. Shortly before she died, Daddy went to the doctor and came home and told us he had prostate cancer. He was sitting in the kitchen looking stunned. First thing she said was, "well, who's going to take care of me now?" Usually, when I get this serious in a post, I try to think of something funny to say but it just isn't coming to me right now. Let's be the ones to break the cycle. Bittles
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Bittles:
When I find myself thinking about these things, I tend to say to myself :Stop think about something positive. Right now I am trying to think if I should be doing something else workwise. I work part time at the front desk at a gym. It really does not take much effort working there but I think I need more of a challenge. However at 55 just how much of a challenge do I need?
Right now I am learning how to paint. I did not know I had a bent for this and I really enjoy it. So I am going to try to expand on this activity. It all started with me painting birdhouses! I did this for my Sunday School class for Mother's Day (we auction these off and the congregation buys them for their mums). At any rate someone told me that I should do it professionally. I just thought they looked ok. The main thing is I really enjoyed doing it.
I hope your day goes well and that the Lord Blesses your day. Much love to you Bittles.
Keep on keeping on
Patz
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Patz,
However at 55 just how much of a challenge do I need?
Right now I am learning how to paint. I did not know I had a bent for this and I really enjoy it. So I am going to try to expand on this activity.
Good for you. :D We are the same age and I am now searching for something I would enjoy investing my time and energy in. I sooooo wish I had some kind of artistic talent as that sounds so appealing, but sadly I was just not given that gift.
I continue to pray about it and assume that God will help direct me to something that will provide fullfillment and enjoyment.
(((((((Patz)))))))
Brigid
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Brigid: Ok, this is off the thread....but, too bad you don't live in my city. A bunch of "older" women in the neighborhood asked me to give them drawing lessons. Drawing realistically is often seen as a "measure' of "artistic talen" and it really is a great foundation for a world opening up, artistically.
The group includes women ages 30-55 and includes an attorney, a doctor, a teacher, a few stay at home young moms.....
all who felt they "didn't have talent", didn't want to brave the University art classes...the thing is, drawing is a skill!! They just didn't have the right instruction! Same with you! They are all shocked at what they can do, now. Now I have a new group that wants to start!
I want to sing opera.....I can carry a tune, but know nothing about this kind of singing....so I think my next move, at my "age" is to get lessons.
So, Brigid (anyone) here are some good books that might inspire you:
"Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" by Betty Edwards
and "The Natural Way to Draw" by Kimon Nikolaides
Have fun!
Sorry about the detour.....
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Mum,
You know far more about this than me, but I've tried teaching a few non- gifted people how to draw and I'm sorry, but I don't think Botticelli could get these people competent enough to play 'hangman'.
They did seem to have a real gift as far as abstract art, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't intentional. :? :P
What am I doing wrong?
By the way Brigid, I also know several people who thought they had no talent and genuinely surprised themselves when they gave it a try.
mudpup
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I can't paint or draw :( although my brother, father, and one daughter have a natural talent. So I draw on my computer. I digitize embroidery and design knitting patterns. And I quilt using quilting software (and a sewing machine :D ) Many, many ways to be creative! I've wanted to look into stained glass. I love art that has a very mechanical basis. Love tools....I once dated an "artist" like in he painted pictures and I was bemoaning the fact that I could not draw. I could only take the pieces around me and arrange them "artfully". God bless him, he told me that was art also and not everyone could do it. Just think of where I would be now if he had agreed with me :lol: *******bittles****** Now I do have asterisk syndrome...it seemed to creep up on me. First I would use them to do internet searches and then I found myself using them socially......
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Bittles:
I have a top that I have embroderied, it is queen size. I have not yet quilted it because I have not had time. I also like to sew and knit. A little old lady of 82 taught me to knit when I was pregnant with my son. It just seems all of the sudden I have decided I like to paint. When you find something you can be creative out, it becomes a very nice outlet that you can see and be proud of.
Patz
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Well since we have completely hijacked this thread to discuss artistic endeavors, I guess I will continue. I have actually got some talent in the knitting and needlepoint arena. When I was in the throws of my depression and just needed to keep my hands busy, I took up knitting scarves. There are so many beautiful yarns these days and many fun ways to use them. I knitted probably 30+ scarves for all my friends and family members. I even had a complete stranger buy one in a hotel lobby (long story).
Mum, thanks for the encouragement in the drawing area. Maybe I will give it a try, but I'm not holding out much hope.
Brigid
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Since I started the thread, you all have my my 100% permission to hijack especially since you're all talking about stuff which keeps me sane and happy. And I'm not panicked today! My panic has declined so much since I just talked about it. I guess this voicelessness thing has a lot of validity to it. Knitting is the next best thing to any medication I have ever taken. There's just something about the process that takes your mind and straightens it out and makes it run smoothly again. Sort of like re-booting your computer... :lol: Listening to music is the next best. I swear I can feel music. I love Christmas music. OK, here's my secret. And I'm going to do it next Christmas since I'm on my own now and can do anything I want! I'm pretty close to Canada so you can imagine the Winters. I'm going to play Christmas music in my back yard at night when the deer come out and the other critters so they can hear what I hear. I don't know why I've always wanted to do this but there seems to be something so perfect about snow and stars in the sky and the animals you know are out there and us inside and maybe we all can connect...I guess it could be called carroling except I am carrolling to the critters. We're very rural here....lots of critters. Oh, and I'm not talking about "Santa got runover by a reindeer"....more like the three tenors or Charlotte Church. I do have taste! OK, so I'll throw in some classical...Bittles (who is probably telling you more than you wanted to know at this point :D )
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Hey bittles,
Do you realize there were more animals than humans present at His birth?
Play them the Byrd Mass for the Nativity, for me.
(((((bittles)))))
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Bittles:
How lovely, the snow falling, the deer in the back yard, the music playing. How lovely. I might try that. I have deer also in my backyard. There were twin fawns last year. So beautiful and delicate.
I agree about knitting. It is a great tranquilizer. You sorta go on autopilot and knit and purl to your hearts content. I have some very nice varigated cotton yarn that I am going to make a cropped jacket. It should turn out nicely. I have this fabric place I go to that I can get specialty buttons for my sweaters. That really makes it look special.
Glad to see the panic attacks have subsided. It is good when you can make it through and see the sunlight, hear the birds, and smell the good cooking in the kitchen the next day.
Love Patz
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Soooo nice to hear that we can all start to recognize what it is we do that is feeding our souls....that's what "art" does. Drawing/schmawing....it can be playing music for the deer, knitting, planing gardens, caring for a pet.....as long as we are lifted beyond our problems and CREATING!! THAT is a huge part of healing. (and IMO, the only way to live!!)
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Hi everyone:
I confess I have not been reading along in this thread and just popped into this page and as Jed Clampet would say:
"Weeeelllllllllllllll dawwgggie!"
Quilters and painters and furniture rearrangers!! Good for ya'll!!
Dogbittles: I can easily imagine Canadian winters 'cause I'm right up here in 'em!! Lovely idea about the music and all! I have deer all around my place. What a nice idea to invite them to your Christmas!!
I love to quilt and have done some by hand and machine too. I knit some too and that reminds me.....that book...I think I posted about it already on this thread....by Linda Richman.....in it...she says that's what cured her of her panic attacks/helped her overcome her agoraphobia (hope I spelled that one right).....knitting. That book might help you a little.
I'm so glad that you're feeling better!! Yay!!!! :D
Brigid: I was always told I have no talent in art (what a crock!!!!). Believed it until I got older and wiser. The first thing I painted was a paddle for my cannoe. I figgered it would end up mostly in the water and not be seen much by anyone but me, so what the heck? I ended up painting a grizzly bear who was climbing out of a lake, onto some rock. Those I've shown it too say really nice things about it. My kids begged me to paint them each one so after that, I did. They're unique and quite interesting.
Bottom line is.....why not try? Do something you can keep but might not display. Start by tracing the outline of something simple...from a colouring book or children's book or pattern book or just about any book. Then play around and see what you end up with. At the very least, it might be fun! Acrylics are fairly easy to work with and quick to dry. Oils give you more time to play around. Water colours are cheaper but not as intense. Where is Mum? She should be giving this lesson, not me. :oops: :oops:
When you find something you can be creative out, it becomes a very nice outlet that you can see and be proud of.
That is so wonderful Patz! What's your quilt like? Who's it for? Have you done many?
I'm kind of upset because I spent 2 years searching for different purple fabrics and aquired a whole wack of 'em. I was going to make them into a quilt for my daughter because she loves purple but when I moved, I put them some place reaaaaaallllllly safe. And now I can't find them! :oops:
I think you spoke of your love of art, Mud, but I can't recall if you paint? I bet you do!! What do you draw (people, places, animals, abstract, combination)??
the thing is, drawing is a skill!! They just didn't have the right instruction! Same with you! They are all shocked at what they can do, now. Now I have a new group that wants to start
Sure wish I was near you, Mum, because I would join your class in a minute!!
I want to sing opera.....I can carry a tune, but know nothing about this kind of singing....so I think my next move, at my "age" is to get lessons.
Go for it Mum!!! Why not??? :D You can practice in the shower.....you'll be really clean....spending all that time in there practicing!!
Anyone do mosaics? They have to be one of the easiest, most interesting art forms!! Break up a bit of tile, stick it to a patio stone and fill it with grout! There's a bit more to it but not a whole lot. Check out this art form if your looking for something interesting, cheap and fun!!
(People love the stones and will ask to buy them. I was told not to ever sell one under $100).
...as long as we are lifted beyond our problems and CREATING!! THAT is a huge part of healing.
Right on Mum!!! :D :D :D
GFN
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GFN & Mum,
You are both very correct when you say that just creating is the important thing and that can take an infinite number of forms. I allow myself to get boxed in by thinking that if I can't paint a proper (whatever that means) tree or person or get the correct depth perception in a landscape, that I must be totally without creativity and talent.
The fact that I can cook and present a beautiful meal, tend to a lovely garden, needlepoint 4 gorgeous Christmas stockings or develop a color scheme for my home doesn't fit into my creativity box. I need to knock down the walls of that box and be proud and enjoy those things I can create rather than worry about painting a picture that might look like a 2nd grade effort. Although if its not going up for sale at the local gallery, who cares.
I think it still boils down the negative tapes in my head that tell me I don't do things very well. I'm working on that, I promise. :)
Brigid
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Brigid,
The fact that I can cook and present a beautiful meal,
Now you're taking art. :wink:
Rembrandt's all fine and dandy, but he never made me rub my tummy, lean back on the couch and just smile contentedly as I drift off to nap land.
GFN,
Yes indeedy I do enjoy painting, mostly oils and wood carving.
Wildlife and landscapes. Some more real, some impressionistic.
I love watercolors too but am hit or miss with them.
There sure are a lot of talented people here. Too bad we can't all see, or hear or, especially, taste what the others have done. :?
mudpup
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Mudpupbrother that would be soooo cooool!!
A pot-luck-creative-decorative stuff party! That would be so fun (and tasty too :D )!
Too bad it can only happen in our dreams. :(
Oh well. Maybe in our next life eh? 8)
If St. Peter lets me in, that is. :roll:
Otherwise I'll be cooking something really hot. :twisted:
GFN
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Brigid,
I meant now you're talking art of course, not taking. :oops:
GFN,
I hope he lets you in. I was counting on seeing you there. :wink:
mud
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GFN:
The quilt top I have been working on is for my son. It is call the "Tree of Life" It is so beautiful. I just love it. It took quite a while to do it. I worked on the top for about 5 years off and on. It is embroderied all over. I have the batting for it. It is the first quilt I have done.
On another note: a girlfriend and I have decided to to a cojoint project. We both like to knit and love to paint as well. She knits beautiful purses. So we are going to do a bunch of stuff and when they have the annual craft show up at the high school we are going to take our things there and see how we do. She also do caligraphy. So it will be interesting to see how we do. What fun!
Patz
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Okay, now you're seeing it....its' a great ruse....the "talent" thing....the big mysterious "art" thing. Art is anything, and everything, and nothing, too. It's illusionary and undefinable.
I wish I could cook (so do my kids). Genetically missed it (you don't hear much about great Irish cooking, now do you?).
Seems to me everyone is creative....everyone creates. The most creative job I will ever have is that of mother!! Talk about improvisation!!!
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Mum,
The most creative job I will ever have is that of mother!! Talk about improvisation!!!
Amen sister. :!: And then you just hope that in 15-30 years they don't come back and tell you that the therapist told them its all your fault that . . . :shock:
The good news is that we can point them in the direction of those lousy N fathers they have and say "We did our job, go complain to him!" :wink:
I wish I could cook (so do my kids). Genetically missed it (you don't hear much about great Irish cooking, now do you?).
Actually Ireland is getting known for its culinary talents these days as more and more people are vacationing there.
If you can read, you can cook--or so they say.
Brigid