Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Anonymous on April 23, 2005, 01:24:32 PM
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Hi folks
Synchronicity happens. Vunil put up a post on Longtire's thread about how awareness of NPD and BPD and so on is changing her view of people and her choice of friends & acquaintances.
I had been thinking of posting about this, but that clinched it. I think my earlier thread has served its purpose and I'm putting it lovingly to rest... will start new ones for new thoughts. [This is progress, folks.]
Vunil - my sympathies - and admiration. To watch you see all that you see and move in a different direction is really inspiring.
*******
Vunil is absolutely spot on, when we are raised by NPD or BPD or whatever people, we tend to attract and be drawn to similarly ill individuals. It feels like home, and even if home was a screaming nightmare, it's still the only home we've ever known.
Oh, how my head knows this. And oh, how little good it has done me.
Until lately.
I've had one romantic relationship in my entire life that did not involve a narcissistic or abusive or addicted man - sometimes a combo of two or three of these. Always, the dysfunction was concealed until I was committed to the gent, and then the mask was dropped. When I was younger I tried to figure out what I'd done wrong, but by my 30s I could see that there was a bait-and-switch going on. However, I still didn't know how to recognize 'bait' from the genuine good stuff.
Now I think I know how. Wait. Watch. See how he treats waitresses and waiters. See how he responds to your small triumphs and victories. See how long he can let you talk on a subject that interests you without diverting the topic back to himself.
I did say there was one fellow who wasnt N/abusive/addicted. Unfortunately, he was gutless. We were very young, and he ran with some fellows who really, really, really did not like women; they were all dating Barbie dolls, and resented the hell out of me for having a quick mind and a sense of humor... exactly the things this fellow really noticed and liked me for.
So his cronies started driving in the wedges. "Dropping in" when they knew we had prior plans to go somewhere [because he told them] and trying to get him to go to the pool hall, etc., with them instead. And so on. And the damn gutless idiot always, always, always picked them. So... I dropped him, and started dating other people. And he went into a tailspinning depression over it (we were very young). But I never went back, because I could never trust him not to abandon me again on a moment's notice if one of the guys came up with a 'better idea'.
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I have realized that most of the non-N, non-addicted, non-overtly-abusive people in my life - whom I've thought of as friends - will, like this fellow, abandon me the minute the going gets even slightly irregular, never mind rough.
Right now, I'm disengaging from a friendship of nearly a decade. It's very sad, but I'm the only one who knows that. It's with a married couple. I met one of them through work and the other through shared interests as well as knowing their spouse. These people are kindhearted to a fault, and therein the problem lies.
They have both been through the fire recently - multiple serious illnesses and injuries among close family, major problems on the job, terrible advese reactions to supposedly innocuous prescription medications, and so on.
I've been as supportive as humanly possible, shared thoughts, suggested books and authors, told them about my own experiences and what worked for me, and have always validated what they are going through.
They, in turn, have almost never failed to let me down in time of need. There have been many, many occasions on which someone known to all of us has treated me inexcusably badly, sometimes in their very presence. Whenever I comment on an episode, these friends instantly leap to the defense of the person or people who are abusing me. They insist that because whoever it is hasn't abused THEM, they are really a nice person 'under it all', so my friends can't take sides or listen to anything I have to say on the subject. Or they claim that because so and so has a 'problem', they get a free pass on having to act like a decent human being [not quite this baldfaced, but pretty damn close.]
They call this 'being fair'. YET, when a mutual acquaintance is abusing THEM, they expect and have always received belief, support, and validation from me.
And they do attract schemers, and some very nasty people who make a hobby of poking others in the eye for pleasure.
I finally saw this pattern after several episodes of really egregious abuse by mutual acquaintances were blown off in the same way. And after I realized that these folks had left me twisting slowly in the wind, utterly alone, the entire time my kitties were dying and my parents were dying and I was dealing with my sibling's misbehaviors. They have helped me out significantly on two occasions when there were no third parties involved WHOM THEY KNEW. But that's the pattern. Always deny my pain, always defend anyone who harms me.
I finally confronted my pals about it, when I felt calm and was able to be clear and concise. There were apologies which I believe were sincere, in terms of their regretting that I was pained. But nothing real has changed.
Except me. I backed off, reduced the time I spent interacting, and totally stopped doing anything which 'put me out' on their account [we live some distance apart, and I no longer visit them. It's a two hour round trip, for very little; my car is old, gas is costly. No.]
I have watched and waited, to see if anything was going to be different. I expected it not to be, simply because of past history - and because I now see that one of these folks is still in extreme, severe denial about terrible abuse in their own past, although they can see abuse affecting them in the present. It would make sense that they would respond with denial to any abuse going on around them... if it doesn't affect them personally.
What floors me is that they are absolutely incapable - as a couple - of seeing the split between their own experience and perception of abuse when it happens to them, and their expectation of acceptance and support, and their utter, total refusal to believe that abuse ever happens to me at the hands of a mutual acquaintance, or to accept and support me in any way when it does.
It's really sad. Because, by declaring a refusal to 'take sides' when these things happen (although, again, that is clearly expected of me when they are on the receiving end), they ARE taking sides. They are, always and inevitably, siding with abuse and denial.
I have had virtually no contact with them while I've been out on leave. I talked to them this week, and the same patterns were there, at the same time they were expressing regret that we hadn't been able to visit [translation: I hadn't driven out; nothing whatsoever prevents them from visiting me] while I've been free.
It's sad, but I am going to have to let them go. Without a word, just let it lapse. Agree with them that it's a shame we haven't gotten together, and stop validating and supporting them overtly when they are abused by mutual acquaintances.
I hope I can do this without being retaliatory. They are well meaning people, and have done some things that are even heroic, on behalf of others. They just won't come through for me, in situations where they clearly expect me to come through for them.
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Well, hell. I was logged in, but timed out, I guess. This was my post above.
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Hiya Stormy:
I knew that was you! :D
It sounds like there are two issues with your friends:
1. You feel that they don't acknowledge/value/support you and your feelings, when you feel you've been abused/mistreated.
2. You think they should take your side when this happens with common/joint/mutual acquaintenanes, or at least speak openly about the abuse.
And you said: These people are kindhearted to a fault, and therein the problem lies.
IMO, this could be why they are doing #2 but it doesn't explain a thing about #1.
I can see not wanting to take sides, people do that, especially if they care about both parites, but not acknowleding the abuse? No validation of your feelings? No statements of understanding/empathy/support??
You know what, Stormy, they don't seem like they are being very kindhearted to a fault to you, to me. :(
Denying abuse is not being kind or acting like a friend.
Even if they don't see the abuse, at least giving you support in regard to your feelings seems like a minimum requirement for a friend. Treating you as if your experience is real....to you.....would be an added bonus eh?
You've helped me understand why I felt so abondoned by one of my friends. She did exactly the same thing. I do understand that she didn't want to take sides. But now I see why I put up a stop sign--pulled away---when she failed to even comment on my feelings, that I expressed clearly. I did my best and am still trying to end this "friendship". She keeps telling me how she "loves and cares" about me but you know what....those are only words.
When I said that my "heart was ripped open and I felt like I would die from the pain", she said nothing. When I described behaviour that was truly hurtful and directly intened to hurt me....she said: "I have a hard time believing ______ would do that".
So what? I'm a liar then? Is that what she was saying? I've distorted something? My observation of abusive behaviour and my feeling abused was not worth commenting on/acknowledging and my version must be a lie/distortion/some other inaccurate assessment? It's not believable?
And she loves/cares for me?
Phooey!!
We don't need people like this in our lives, Stormy. There is enough confusion. I've tried several times to say these things, kindly, without blame, but to relay that... to me....part of love includes acknowledging my pain and believing my experience. Caring....is voicing it/bothering to express empathy and understanding.
She doesn't get it. She is a good person who does much good in the world. But I don't trust her or care to further a friendship with some one I can't rely on to stand by me when I hurt. Or even believe that I'm hurt or that someone she knows/cares about would hurt me!! It wasn't just on one occasion that this happened. And these were life-changing events. What kind of friendship could this possibly be? I'm not interested.
I don't want to be blunt so I dance around. I spare her feelings, which is the Christian thing to do. I am nice but I'm not letting myself be vunerable--not sharing/communicating much of anything. I need to find the courage to be firm (but I did that once already with this person and it didn't work). I keep thinking that she's feeling guilty and trying to repair our friendship to appease her own guilt. Maybe that's a nutty thought?? Maybe not. :?
GFN
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Hey GFN, thanks for your response. Can you help me with this set of thoughts? I'm thinking as I type and who knows what it's going to look like.
Yes, what you describe is exactly what I've experienced. To a T. I am sorry you get that too. And no, it sure isn't kind, is it.
I remember an Ursula leGuin short story where one of the characters talked about his late wife (who had fundamentally betrayed him) and said, "She was very weak. I mistook her weakness for sweetness. Not her fault."
I wonder if what we are seeing is weakness dressed as kindness? Denial and even moral cowardice dressed as fairness?
Also, I **just** realized there's a large reminder of my parents here. These folks are always complimenting me on how well I deal with things.
Oooooweee. So... if you're competent, we won't support you. We only have kindness and empathy for people who aren't competent, people we can feel "better than" -- or people who are messed up in the same way that we are [rather than being messed up differently, as I (Stormy) am :P]?
I wonder how much charity is really disguised (and not very well, at that) condescension?
Whaddaya think? Any of this make sense?
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Stormy,
I have been through this same experience. A woman I considered to be a good friend, whom I have supported through some very difficult situations in her life, I have had to let go of as a friend. She was the first person I called when my H first started hinting that he might be leaving. I sobbed on the phone as I explained what was happening. She would call periodically to see how I was doing, she would tell me that she really wanted to get together and have a glass of wine, but virtually every time we talked as soon as I would start talking about the hard time I was having, she would have to go and I wouldn't hear from her for another couple of months. I would call and leave messages and she would rarely call back. Finally she called one day in January after I had sent an e-mail to say my mother had died, to tell me she was sorry for my loss. She asked how things were going with the divorce and mentioned she had seen my H at her Christmas Eve open house she has every year (I was in Europe with the kids, so did not attend). I was so shocked that she had invited him and asked if she would have asked him if I had been in town. She acted surprised at the question and said that that was between he and I and as much as she and her husband didn't agree with his having an affair, they still felt he was their friend. When I tried to explain that the affair was only a small part of it, she once again needed to end the conversation. After several attempts to call and talk to finally set the record straight with no return calls, I sent a long e-mail telling her the whole story. Needless to say, I have not heard from her since. It is hurtful to be treated this way, but I guess progress that I can recognize a situation that I must remove myself from rather than continuing to beat my head against the brick wall.
I would agree with GFN that your friends could not be kindhearted to a fault and behave the way they have toward you. IMO I think many people (my H included) like to appear kindhearted and generous, but they are doing it more for the attention they get in return than genuine kindness.
Brigid
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PS to my last post - Yet, GFN, like your friend, these folks have done tremendous good in the world. Unquestionably.
Which is part of what has confused me so.
Brigid, thanks. Isn't it amazing, how many similar experiences we share here? And that business of your cheating lying husband still being their friend, regardless of how badly he treats you, is exactly the kind of thing I get. Exactly!
Seems to me that there's some kind of major boundary problem there... and for once, it isn't ours. :twisted: :twisted:
((((((((((Brigid))))))))))
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Hi Stormy,
I knew it was you too. You always put those little asterisk things in to seperate themes. :)
Now I think I know how. Wait. Watch. See how he treats waitresses and waiters. See how he responds to your small triumphs and victories. See how long he can let you talk on a subject that interests you without diverting the topic back to himself.
Can't these weed whackers fool you on this stuff too? Or do they think gals don't notice this stuff?
My wise wifey looked for stuff I couldn't hide.
She insisted on asking around about me but just as importantly, my parents also, before she would even go out with me.
She also made sure her mom approved before she got even slightly involved. Not an option in your case Stormy, I know, but handy for her, as her mom is a woman of infinite wit and sagacity and could discern the astounding catch her daughter had found. :P :roll: :P
I have realized that most of the non-N, non-addicted, non-overtly-abusive people in my life - whom I've thought of as friends - will, like this fellow, abandon me the minute the going gets even slightly irregular, never mind rough.
Just substitute the word family for friends in your statement and we'll be on the same page. I don't know how many are hostile and how many are just ducking the shrapnel, but the effect is the same. Isolation and abandonment.
Thank God our friends and my wife's family have stood by us and believed us through this manmade hell.
I'm saying a little prayer God will send some loyal friends your way Stormy. Maybe even a friend who also is a boy. :wink: Who has an interest in music. :wink: :wink:
About your friends. Kindness is not kindness when it will not stand up for what is right. It is then just a social veneer and moral cowardice.
It is the prime factor that allows Ns to flourish.
It brings to mind Edmund Burke's maxim, which, while utterly true, has never seemed to have been taken to heart by more than a small number of people.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
Thats what your friends are doing when they don't support you. Exactly nothing. :x
mudpuppy
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Stormy,
I didn't crib the 'moral cowardice' line from your post. :oops: I promise. I was occupied with about three things while writing my reply.
mud
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Mud, you're so right. It is moral cowardice and I know you didn't crib it - you always quote folks when responding, a technique I should use more of.
Aggghhhh! Outed by my asterisks!!!!! [total aside. I have a VERY recognizable voice, the minute I say hello on the phone people say Oh Hi Stormchild. Have always joked about it. Lordy. So now, I have very recognizable asterisks. You can't even run, let alone hide. *****]
Yeah. My folks would have approved of Jack the Ripper. the only guy I dated of whom they didn't fully approve was, of course, the one who wasn't an N, just a wimp.
Rassa frassa rackafracka.
Oh, and I forgot - I get that same solid wall of huffily offended silence that you did, Brigid. An implcit rebuke for having the nerve to expect them to support me? Ye Gods and little fishes.
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Hi Stormchild,
I would put no effort into these people either. They attract schemers and abusers, and take sides against you. With friends like these, who needs enemies?
Two things struck me:
(1) There seem to be far too many abusers, dysfunctional people, and drama surrounding this couple. That alone marks them (in my eyes) as too wierd to deal with.
(2) Do you see a pattern where someone takes sides/prefers others to you, just like your mom did with your brother. I would also avoid any friendships/relationships where this is an issue.
take care,
bunny
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Brigid, I'm sorry your friend couldn't handle the truth about your married life. I would take that as her fear that (a) her husband will also dump her; and (b) she has no idea how to sympathize because she's too shallow.
re: fair-weather/disappointing friends. Here's my take on it. A friendship has to have a foundation of two people sharing a spiritual level of bonding. If that level exists, the friendship can withstand a lot of stress, even the two people having fights and briefly hating each other. Friendships have a lot of unconscious expectations/demands. It's when these expectations aren't met that the mettle is tested. Then we see whether this spiritual bond exists or whether the friendship is based more on unmet longings from childhood. If the bond exists, the feeling of loss on both sides will result in mutual renegotiating of the friendship. If it doesn't, the friendship will get ugly and possibly collapse under the weight of disappointment and incompatibility. This isn't bad or terrible, it's just how it works out.
bunny
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Thanks bunny, very astute thoughts, and you are absolutely right, there's no real foundation here. Also, yes, I do see the similarity to my family of origin. That's when I decided I had to get out of this interaction.
Wish me luck doing so in a relatively unperturbed way. I'm kind of tired of dramatics myself.
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To whom it may concern,
Vunil is absolutely spot on, when we are raised by NPD or BPD or whatever people, we tend to attract and be drawn to similarly ill individuals. It feels like home, and even if home was a screaming nightmare, it's still the only home we've ever known.
Could someone explain this to me more thoroughly? I wasn't raised by Ns so can't really get my mind around the idea of wanting to return to a 'screaming nightmare'.
It reminds me of the old biblical imprecation of a dog returning to its own vomit. (sorry about the imagery)
Is it fear of trying something new because a nightmare is all you've known?
Is it the thought process being twisted by childhood trauma or lack of bonding?
It is I presume a subconcious thing, right?
I mean nobody says to themselves, "you know I really miss the old living nightmare lifestyle; I think I'll go marry Cruella Deville because 'I want a girl just like the girl that ruined dear old dad' ", do they?
And how do you get rid of the tendency to attract or be attracted to these case studies?
curious,
mudpup,
awaiting instruction
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It's totally subconscious, mud.
the thing is that what you were raised in is what feels like home.
even if you spent your youth terrified, being hit by your parents, etc.
somehow, the tiny behavioral signals that correlate with the kind of environment you had in childhood will be recognized and you will be drawn to them, until you reach a level of discomfort and awareness that brings the situation into focus.
then you face the uphill battle of learning to ignore what feels right, because your mind knows that it will just be the same old wrong.
be glad you didn't have a hideous childhood... it leaves an awful legacy.
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Hey, Stormchild. Your first post on this thread reminded me so much of a recent relationship "change" I have had.
My ex is friendly with one of my sister's husbands. This BIL and my ex, for some reason, liked each other (drinking, me thinks). My ex has very few friends, and neither did this BIL (mostly because he is so shy).
When I divorced my ex, after his last round of cheating, said BIL and wife (dear sister) stayed friendly with my ex. This ticked off most of my family, because of my ex's treatment of me, and also because I am family. My take on this issue is that my sis had cheated on my BIL several times, early in the marriage. If they were to condemn my ex for his behavoir, what would that say?
I tried not to care, but it did alter my relationship with them. When sis and BIL would visit our city they would stay with my ex, then with me. This happened once, it was very awkward, and never happened again (they stayed in hotels).
Fast forward to two years ago, when my ex took me to court and prevented me from getting on with my life.....I told sis this was a fence that she couldn't be on if she expected me to even talk to her about anything meaningful. She said she supported me, but I know she was a bit of a leak as her husband stayed loyal to my ex....so I didn't share much. Made me sad.
While in the middle of the trial, my sis and BIL came to town and I told her I would not see her husband. I simply did not feel comfortable with that. The thing is, this is a really nice, quiet guy.....but I simply knew that seeing him, and knowing his "support" for my ex, just made me too uncomfortable. He was "crushed" but my sis said she understood. Anyhow, he wrote me a letter last year, saying how sad he was, that he did indeed support me, but that my ex has always been a good friend of his and a loving father to my children. HMMMMPH.
I have not responded, and generally don't even talk to him if he answers the phone. I am not angry about it, just feel violated by this wishy washiness on his part. HE is weak. That's all. HE can't say no. SO what? NOT MY PROBLEM.........keeping my distance. He has nothing but problems right now, with my niece, and I give both he and my sis all the postive energy and prayers I can each day. I simply accept that he is one person who I do not HAVE to have a relationship with. When my ex stabs him in the back one day, he may realize who he's friends with. Until then., I'll take care of myself.
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Stormy:
I also had a long term realtionship with a girlfriend of 18 years. I was supportive of her, helped her when she had no job, babysat for her children and it was also a one way street.
The last straw came when I had the memorial service for my now deceased n husband. She came to the memorial ok, but instead of supporting me........she took me to the side and started in on a major issue that was affecting she and her new husband. I was aghast at her insensitivity. I slowly began to back out of the realtionship because it was only going to continue at my expense. As long as she lived in the same town, it was convenient enough for her to visit. However, just like you when she moved about 3 hours away, I was the one to visit and make the calls. I have not heard from her in about 5 years.
You need to let this relationship go. There is no use in asking these folks for any support because they cannot give it. They would have done so by now. Also deciding not to decide about abusive situations is a decision within itself. It is not only a sin of commission but of omission as well.
Unfortunately, I have found the only way I can protect myself is to contantly keep my antenna up for Nissh behaviour. Does this make me hyperviligant. No. It just makes me more aware of my environment and the people in it.
Patz
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Hi, Storm (and gang!)--
When I responded to your post on the other thread I didn't know you had started this one. Cool. Here we are :)
I guess it's clear I can relate to everything people are saying here. There is some sort of loyalty thing that happens in friendship-- Bunny is right it is delicate. But you sort of have to know they are there for you, in some sort of fundamental way. I feel all the little and big "shrugs" of the friends in each of our stories who, when we told them of deep pain, basically said back to us "so what?" Screw that.
Mudpup, I have been thinking about your very logical question a lot today (before I even read it). My borderline of all borderline friends called me yesterday, utterly distraught over something that is utterly her fault (she wants fertility treatments but can't afford them, and can't afford to raise the child she does have, and doesn't have a job or health insurance, even though she could easily have either). She wanted to talk at length about everything she is going through. I went through horrible treatments for a year and a half and she never asked about them, never supported me through them, never was anything but dismissive of me. In fact, when I went through the worst part she disappeared for three months, only to call me out of the blue one day and say "you have no idea what I've been going through."
So, nutshell, she's awful. But today driving around I remembered that a great, sweet, wonderful friend I have told me that the BPD friend was mean and crazy a long time ago. She told me that BPD lady had insulted her repeatedly and she didn't want to be around her. What did I do? I kept hanging out with the BPD friend and didn't spend as much time with my other friend.
Why? Well, I am not sure (craziness cannot be explained) but I think it had to do with the fact that my BPD friend is beautiful and exciting and fun. I liked the glamour of it. It was a very sex in the city friendship, glamourous, parties, men, whatever. In fact, imagine carrie on sex in the city and that's kind of like my BPD friend.
And at some level maybe being with people who truly love us in a deep way feels scary when we've been so injured? It's easy to be with shallow cynical selfish people who are "fun."
And maybe at some level when we hear them insult our judgments, this confirms what our inner voices are telling us (we are wrong, confused, not being fair, etc.) and it all sounds "true."
For what it's worth, I am going to apologize to my wonderful friend as soon as possible and I'm not taking any more calls from BPD lady. And I have cultivated the good friendship back to its previous level, or better, to my relief.
Boy am I long-winded. Sorry.
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Wow, mum. Wow, Patz.
These folks seem to be about as prevalent as Ns. I am sorry that you've had this stuff too, but I am very glad I put up that post.
I have been so totally puzzled by this situation. People who can do such good where others are concerned, who have seen me come to their aid countless times, yet sit on their hands and go into a snitty sulk when I ask them to stand up for ME.
Time to say bye-bye for sure. I don't think these folks are N, I think they're just wimps, and N-ablers for sure, just as mud said.
I hope and pray that all of us here find loyal and staunch friends - in realspace as well as here in cyberspace. thanks mud for that idea. and thank God for this board.
Stormy
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My take on this issue is that my sis had cheated on my BIL several times, early in the marriage. If they were to condemn my ex for his behavoir, what would that say?
Hey mum, one thing it suggests is that your sis is pretty derned N herself, and your BIL is in serious need of calcium supplements to regrow his backbone. Is she ***still*** cheating on him, mayhap?
Birds of a feather and all that.
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today driving around I remembered that a great, sweet, wonderful friend I have told me that the BPD friend was mean and crazy a long time ago. She told me that BPD lady had insulted her repeatedly and she didn't want to be around her. What did I do? I kept hanging out with the BPD friend and didn't spend as much time with my other friend.
For what it's worth, I am going to apologize to my wonderful friend as soon as possible and I'm not taking any more calls from BPD lady. And I have cultivated the good friendship back to its previous level, or better, to my relief.
This is terrific Vunil, I'm so glad you were able to reclaim that good friend. You're just proving all the good stuff I said to you in the other post on the other thread :D :D . Sorry I didn't see this post sooner!
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Hi vunil and everyone,
I guess I get it a little better. Probably one of those 'you have to go through it to really understand it' things.
And vunil,
I think only women and gay men watch 'sex in the city'
so I really couldn't put a face to your friend. This carrie's a hot little number, no? :wink:
mudpup
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Mudpup,
Your questions are logical, but I have no reasonable answers. I think it boils down to (at least for me) that I don't feel worthy of complete and equal relationships and I was loved so little for most of my life that if someone does or pretends to just a little bit, I latch on and am afraid to let go. If I have learned nothing else, it is my great fear of abandonment and my willingness to do most anything to not lose that tiny image of love and caring.
Really sad I have to admit, but true nontheless.
Bunny, you are absolutely correct about my friend and her fears. Several times during the last 20 months she has told me that I am living her worst nightmare. I hope she never actually has to live it because then she will find out how important your friends really are.
Mum,
I totally understand your position with your BIL. I would feel the same way. I personally could not maintain a relationship with a friend who was cheating on their spouse or in any way abusing or abandoning their family. I guess it comes down to character. I cannot associate myself with people who do not have character and integrity.
I would agree with Stormy (I assume that was you because of your identifying asterisks) that your BIL is weak and spineless to choose your exH as a friend. Even before my H had his affair, etc., he would have chosen to be friends with someone like that and would have told me I was too judgmental if I chose not to.
Vunil,
Good for you to start seeing what a good friend should "look like." Hopefully we are all getting wiser as we move forward.
Mudpup again,
I think only women and gay men watch 'sex in the city'
Guilty as charged. It is one of my guilty pleasures. :wink:
Brigid
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Hi Vunil,
You're making the right decision to reunite with your non-disordered friend. I hope you guys will have some good times together. :)
bunny
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Hi Brigid and everyone,
I hope my questions didn't sound judgemental. :oops:
Its just that when I see an N now, I head for the hills as fast as my little feets will carry me.
To someone who wasn't raised by N parents it would seem like the people least likely to get tangled up with them again would be those tormented by their own parents. I would figure anyone with an N parent would be blowing by me like the Roadrunner toward those Nless hills.
I'm sorry how they mess up your perception of what love or a healthy relationship is. And I hope everyone here can find someone who will love them right.
I don't know if it helps any, but you guys all seem like some of the most lovable people I've ever met. :D
Take care everyone.
mudpup
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Stormy ( I ****think****): yup, this particular sis is decidedly Nish and her H an Nabler....no doubt. She can be very sweet and she is trying to deal with a difficult situation with her addicted daughter, but for me, and probably most of us here, whose pain came from NOT thinking of ourselves first, it's a little hard for me to hear her talk about finally "taking care of her needs". Um, that's all she ever did, from what I can tell.
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Hi GFN,
I had a question,
I spare her feelings, which is the Christian thing to do.
Is it always?
If sparing her feelings prevents her from knowing how wrong her behavior is, is it the Christian thing to do?
Jude said "save some with compassion, but make a distinction and save others with fear." Maybe a little fear brought about by a flash of righteous anger from you would save her from harming people she professes to care about. Maybe?
mudpup
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Vunil is absolutely spot on, when we are raised by NPD or BPD or whatever people, we tend to attract and be drawn to similarly ill individuals. It feels like home, and even if home was a screaming nightmare, it's still the only home we've ever known.
Mudpup...To me this makes perfect sense but only after my T told me I had married my mother! I couldn't have made a dynamic like this up.... :shock: My Mom was an extreme N and my Dad made nice-nice and was not home a lot. My brother self-isolated and so I was left to take care of things and try to make every day a 5 on a 1-10 scale. That was my value to my family and I learned that "taking care of" neurotic people or just dysfunctinal people was what I did well. I tended to gravitate toward people and situations that valued my "caring". Normal, healthy people puzzled me and probably scared me as well since I had not had any real experience with any. Fast forward many years and I meet Mr. Entitlement. I am successful on the outside but on the inside, same old same old. I offer up what I think I am best at and he latched on. Married 23 years and I always thought his behaviours were my fault which was the same driving force in my family or birth...It was their way of keeping me hopping to make them happy. I've only been working on this for a year and a half now...and I'm much wiser now and not hopping so fast...hope this helps.
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Storm:
Sounds like you are doing the right thing by distancing yourself from these folks.
You had a lot of time invested in these friendships so I'm sure it's not an easy decision to make.
This couple appears to act situationally. In my opinion one stands for what is right all the time (consistently) and NOT just when it appeals to one's comfort level or when it will make one look like a hero.
Such people lack character. Your *friends* learned early that they could slight you here and there and you would still be sticking around. They took advantage of you. They consciously chose not act in a righteous manner. A good friend will always say, "I've got your back". Everyone has lapses in judgement but to continually *diss* you as they did is offensive and hurtful. If it were me I know I wouldn't be able to trust them.
I'm sorry you were treated so unfairly.
If it offers any comfort you have plenty of cyber friends here.
:D
Mia
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Storm: If it offers any comfort you have plenty of cyber friends here. :D
It is a tremendous comfort, Mia! ((((())))).
I was thinking this morning (en route to church) that I'd misspoken myself when I posted to Vunil that I wasn't getting good folks in my life now that I am moving less-good-intentioned folks out. I was thinking only of realspace, and even there, I now have this church to go to.
Meanwhile here in cyberspace I've met the most incredible bunch of people. We joke, laugh, cry, argue, forgive and are forgiven, compare perspectives and respect one another's beliefs. A group dynamic I have never seen on this scale, really. Only cheap counterfeits of it presented by Ns as bait.
Do you remember the children's book "The Velveteen Rabbit"? What the leather horse tells the bunny... that it takes a long time to become real, and by the time you do, you may be looking pretty shabby on the outside, but that doesn't matter, because the one who truly loves you sees only what you really are?
Here are a lot of people seeking with all their heart and soul and mind and strength to become real, and as far as I'm concerned we most definitely are. Cyber or not. And the One who truly loves us must be absolutely delighted for our sakes.
Gonna quit there. Getting maudlin again.
Storm
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Stormy ( I ****think****): yup, this particular sis is decidedly Nish and her H an Nabler....no doubt. She can be very sweet and she is trying to deal with a difficult situation with her addicted daughter, but for me, and probably most of us here, whose pain came from NOT thinking of ourselves first, it's a little hard for me to hear her talk about finally "taking care of her needs". Um, that's all she ever did, from what I can tell.
Yep, mum, that *****was***** me :oops: :oops: but someone else here has Asterisks Syndrome too. Dogbittles maybe. I was so tickled to see them in someone else's posting. As long as they aren't contagious.
I'm kind of on a snarky roll here, so I'll just say - naah, she wasn't taking care of her needs. She was indulging her urges, which is quite another thang.
I mean, cheatin' on yo' hubby is a "need"? Shyte.
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Asterisks Syndrome
That is too funny. I'm going to have to tell my kid. She has a great sense of humor. You are on a roll today! You're not maudlin but hysterical! What was this thread about anyway and I do not have asterisk syndrome. Bittles
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Hey bittles!
I keep timing out on my posts and people can still tell it's me because
***********
I use a line of asterisks to separate different topics
***********
and ***also*** for emphasis
and sometimes as a traffic warning:
****CAUTION - ASTERISK ZONE ****
and after being gently teased a bit about this, I got the biggest kick out of seeing someone else use rows of asterisks to separate topics.
thought it was you. No? ***sigh***
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"taking care of her needs". Um, that's all she ever did, from what I can tell.
Somewhere along the way it became acceptable to say "need" for "want." It came around the same time that pop psychology started happening, maybe 15 years ago or so? Not sure exactly, and heaven knows I have gotten something out of books too, but all of sudden people started saying things like "I really need this from you" and "I am getting my needs met" and "he wasn't acknowledging my needs" when they are talking about the most selfish of impulses. And somehow that word allows you to demand something-- I mean, if it's a need, who is anyone else to argue? A particularly funny example I remember is a friend of mine's roommate many years ago told him, when he asked her to please do her dishes because it had been a couple of days (and they were getting yucky), and she said "I really need you not to ask me to do things. I have issues around being told what to do." I guess she didn't have issues with him doing her dishes for her...
! :roll:
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Vunil: Funny how buzzwords catch on, especially if they let someone off the hook (but those N's will find anything to do that!!!)
In the same vien:s a teacher, we teach kids to communicate with "I" statements (which I do believe work, once they get it). It makes sense to let a kid who is upset keep his power, even when it's to say" I feel hurt when you call me that name"...it isn't blaming, and done right, I think adults could use it effectively. But the funniest thing I heard was a teacher telling a kid who was mad to "use and I message to tell him how you feel"....So the kid says to the other kid: "I hate you."
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Mum! :lol:
You have to sort of admire that kid. Or maybe that's just me in a sick mood.
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Problem is, I messages and 'when you-this-i that" messages don't work with abusers.
Sample dialog:
I-statement: "I feel terribly hurt that you would (fly to Rio, get your secretary pregnant, eat our tame pheasant) without talking to me about it first."
Typical response: "Who gives a (your choice of expletive) how YOU feel?"
You-this-I-that statement: "When you physically assaulted our waiter and got us barred from Ruth's Chris Steak House, I was so embarrassed I wanted to cry."
Typical response: " So what?"
There is an implied presupposition in both the I-dialogs and the When-you dialogs that both participants are on a sufficiently equal footing for the pain of one to matter to the other. Just not true with abusers. Trying this stuff with them at home only reveals your current area of vulnerability to them, with nice bright concentric rings painted around it.
Anyone got an alternative for use with abusers, other than large lumps of granite on the noggin (which would always work but might do so irreversibly)?
Look ma no asterisks
:wink:
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Hi Ya'll: Stormy, Brigid, Bunny, Mud, Mum, Patz, Vunil, Dogbit, Mia...hope I haven't missed anyone. Just felt like including each person individually, so you might feel responded to.....because it's that not...feeling responded to.... feeling that really hurts, especially if it's a person you consider your friend ..who is doing the not responding part. So to each person who's name is here (and others who are reading), I just want to say that I understand the let down of not being responded to/supported by a supposed friend and the loss that occurs at that moment/those moments.
Stormy wrote:
wonder if what we are seeing is weakness dressed as kindness? Denial and even moral cowardice dressed as fairness?
On the other hand, we are all weak, unkind, we deny, may even show a little moral cowardice/unfairness sometimes, because we are imperfect. I don't expect perfection from my friends but I do expect them to hug me when I hurt, at some point.
Also, I **just** realized there's a large reminder of my parents here. These folks are always complimenting me on how well I deal with things.
Oooooweee. So... if you're competent, we won't support you. We only have kindness and empathy for people who aren't competent, people we can feel "better than" -- or people who are messed up in the same way that we are [rather than being messed up differently, as I (Stormy) am ]?
Yes. I get that a lot too. "You're such a strong person, you'll be fine." Even from therapists! And the truth is, I am a pretty strong person but I'm not tarzanna/wonder woman. I need a hug once in awhile too.
I wonder how much charity is really disguised (and not very well, at that) condescension?
I believe my friend is a good person who does good things. And she is human and capable of not doing everything perfectly, just like the rest of us. So I have no problem forgiving her for that.
But I don't understand how she can ignor my calling for help/expressing my emotions/describing the wrongs I felt were specifically directed at me....and still say she cares? Maybe she does have strong feelings for me? I don't think she would lie about that, nor say so for any selfish purpose. She just doesn't get that ignoring my pain is a really wierd way of showing love. It doesn't indicate caring to me. The fact that she hasn't even responded to that......gives me no reason to trust that she won't do the same thing again the next time things get tough.
One thing I will risk saying here is something I have always taught my children and that is:
It doesn't seem fair to interfere in other people's relationships.
When my ex and I were divorced.....I told this to my kids. I understood that they care about their dad and about me. Even though I have been hurt in many ways by their dad's behaviour, it doesn't seem fair of me to interfere in his relationship with his children and vice versa. I wanted them to understand that they have a right to love and have a relationship with whom they choose. I didn't "bad mouth" him. As Mum said, and others too, some where on this board, they will make their minds up for themselves some day.
I told them that if they are friends with A and B, and A and B have a fight, they don't have to take sides. They can support both A and B, separately, and remain friends with both. They can say: "Gee, I'm sorry that happened. It's not nice. I understand that you feel mad, sad, upset etc".
And they can try to understand what both friends are feeling and give thems support. They don't have to ignor either of their friends and it will hurt the ignored person to do so.
I told them that they don't have to end relationships with one person to prove anything to another. I hope this makes sense.
Mudpup: I don't believe in flashing righteous anger at anyone to get my point across, unless I really feel it and can't see any other way to communicate. But I am honest. I did explain how I felt, very bluntly (that I don't trust my friend, etc) and it didn't compute, or wasn't accepted. Her behaviour didn't cause me to feel angry....just hurt. I don't want to "pay" her back, in any way. I can't change the way she behaves. I can only distance myself from her and deal with my feelings of loss.
But thanks for thinking of me, Mudpup and for taking the time to comment. That in itself feels good and shows your kind interest.
Sorry for all who have experienced this loss of friends/lack of support.
((((((all))))))
GFN
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One thing I will risk saying here is something I have always taught my children and that is:
It doesn't seem fair to interfere in other people's relationships.
I told [my kids] that if they are friends with A and B, and A and B have a fight, they don't have to take sides. They can support both A and B, separately, and remain friends with both. I told them that they don't have to end relationships with one person to prove anything to another. I hope this makes sense.
Sounds good in theory, GFN, but I always end up making practical distinctions.
I would have no hesitation at all over ending a friendship immediately with someone who raped or battered or stole from a mutual acquaintance. In fact, I'd probably be the one getting the victim to hospital and / or the police.
Why should the psychological equivalents of battery, larceny, and rape get a free pass?
If the argument between A and B is fundamental, and if one has truly been wronged or injured by the other, then refusing to support the wronged one merely adds to the wrong being done them. And endorses the wrongdoer, at the same time.
Why do we always have to pretend it takes two? Can't we see where that leads? Do we really think that every little kid murdered by a pedophile was asking for it and got what they deserved? Because that's where this logic takes us, eventually.
And I'm using the most brutal example I can think of on purpose, because there really are people in this world who won't even take sides about them.
On the other hand, I totally agree with you if we're talking about middle-school-type ladies-garden-club spats, but those generally mend themselves eventually anyway.
I guess there are just some situations in which 'being reasonable' is a copout. At least, to me.
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Stormy: got to get back to you on your "problem with I messages" bit>
You are hilarious. Seriously, that's just about the wittiest thing I have read in ages. You are sharp! And that's saying a lot, as I find just about everyone on this board to be pretty darn funny and sharp! (myself excluded....I just ramble).
Ok, so beyond those hysterical scenarios (eating our tame pheasant!!!!) I agree entirely. "I" statements/dialogue such as those presume that both parties are not impaired with a personality disorder/terrible interpersonal skills/inability to be honest, or even recognize their own or other's feelings. You are right on!
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OOPS, that last post was mine
MUM
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I-statement: "I feel terribly hurt that you would (fly to Rio, get your secretary pregnant, eat our tame pheasant) without talking to me about it first."
Typical response: "Who gives a (your choice of expletive) how YOU feel?"
You-this-I-that statement: "When you physically assaulted our waiter and got us barred from Ruth's Chris Steak House, I was so embarrassed I wanted to cry."
Typical response: " So what?"
Choice #1: Avoid people who are this abusive. I see no reason to communicate with them at all. Just get away from them.
Choice #2 If one HAS to talk to someone like this, I would certainly not bring up anything this sensitive. I'd only talk about sports, cars, or whatever this oaf likes to talk about.
Choice #3 To talk to someone who is defensive, hostile, and shame-based, one has to show them a lot of respect and not shame them even more. One has to consider whether it's even worth it, or whether one should end the relationship because it's just too abusive.
bunny
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It doesn't seem fair to interfere in other people's relationships.
I don't know if it is fair or not or appropriate or not but by being friends with people, you have to be comfortable with what they have to offer and what you have to offer. By taking a stance of not interfering, I think you might be withholding your value as a friend. But then, we have to define interfering. If A hits B after B has told A she is a jerk and both A and B are friends of yours,do you say I understand why both of you did what you did and I still love both of you? Since I am not a master of diplomacy and do not care to be one, I would think that your value as a friend is diminished. The friends I am choosing to remain with at this time in my life with the best knowledge I have are those that give me a reality check that is in sync with my reality and the reality of most normal average people. I'm picking up on your post because a family that was very influential with me in my early years always turned the other cheek. Without going into specifics, I think it served them better than others. But I also learned compassion from them. Compassion is biblical but too much leaves much confusion. What is right and wrong?
I told them that they don't have to end relationships with one person to prove anything to another. I hope this makes sense.
It makes a lot of sense ... By giving your honest feedback and I mean honest....Like this is who I am, this is why I am your friend, and this is what I think of what's going on and I'm telling you because you are my friend, I'm not trying to break off the friendship or take sides or manipulate the outcome. I am just trying to be your friend and if the friendship does not survive past this point then I am doing the best I can with what I know at the moment. Giving the other guy a choice to listen to me or not is validating of the other guy, right? And being able to express your honest opinion is equally validating of who you are. I think that is friendship. Sorry if I have missed the point....but this is just where my thoughts went...when friends can't return their share of the investment in a friendship, I think it is time to re-define....maybe like acqaintances??....******bittles*******
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Choice #1: Avoid people who are this abusive. I see no reason to communicate with them at all. Just get away from them.
Absolutely!
Thing is, this used to be (and sometimes still is) the way I find out they ARE abusive.
What then? Stony silence and an abrupt disappearance sound kinda good to me, but when you have to work with oiks like this, you can't stay in your office (if you have one) all day every day. Sooner or later, if nothing else, you gotta go to Dijon, and guess who you meet in the hall on your way there.
Is it possible to serve notice on these people and then continue to go about your business?
Any suggestions on technique?
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What then? Stony silence and an abrupt disappearance sound kinda good to me, but when you have to work with oiks like this, you can't stay in your office (if you have one) all day every day. Sooner or later, if nothing else, you gotta go to Dijon, and guess who you meet in the hall on your way there.
Is it possible to serve notice on these people and then continue to go about your business?
Any suggestions on technique?
It depends on who the coworker is (boss, equal, etc.), and what the situation is. If you give me something more concrete I could tell you what I would lean toward doing.
bunny
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bunny, you have a deal :D . I was hoping there might be some good general response but thought it was probably not likely.
When I get back to the ranch in a coupla weeks, I'll probably have plenty of specific examples. I'll check in with you for suggestions then, if that's OK. I'd love to learn some new coping methods.
thanks bunny!
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Stormy,
The only response I could think of was to work your tookus off for about five years until you are above them on the ladder, then fire them all. :wink:
Sound like a plan?
mud
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Hi again,
Just read your lip curling, dog snarling BPD solution on the other page, Stormy. :lol:
Is this not applicable with your current crop of N-innys?
Perhaps a variation on the theme?
mud
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Hey mud, I wish it were.
But no, not really. Flamer Girl appeared to be a total phosphorescent nutbar and she had pulled the same abusive hissy fit stuff on just about everyone, but, of course, since I work in a very secret-keeping and hostile-ish environment, nobody talked about it. At least, not to me. I had to go around and ask, one person at a time. Once I knew she'd alienated everyone, I knew that I probably could try the growl trick without much in the way of backlash.
(I used something similar in grad school to keep potential threats away from me when I needed to walk home late at night... growl, talk to yourself, have arguments with the Invisible Man and lose them. Make potential troublemakers think you are nuttier than they are. Worked.)
Don't think I could snarl at my immediate supervisor when he tells me he never looks at my work and then presumes to rate me on it, alas. Not that I wouldn't enjoy it; and lordy, he deserves it. But I think it'd have something other than the desired effect, dagnabbit, rassafrassa rackafracka.
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Hello everyone:
Sorry Stormy, re your friends/their response to your x, I do agree that you don't need friends like that in your life, as I said before.
What would have helped for me, would have been had my friend said: "Sorry you've been hurt. It wasn't nice of _____ to do ______. That was bad behaviour. I care about you. I support you and will stay with you in your pain. I also care about _____, who is my friend too. I will make sure _____ knows I think the behaviour was wrong. We'll see if ______intends to make amends. If there is hope for change, then I won't give up. I will support _____in facing up to the behaviour, taking responsibility for it, and hopefully taking steps to prevent it from happening again, and in making amends".
For me.......that would have been good. I could live with it. But: "How's the weather" doesn't swing it for me, when I'm suffering because of something someone else has done to me.
Maybe, Stormy, if your friends had said: "We are sorry that you are hurt and for your pain. We know X hurt you and behaves horribly. We are here for you and will support you. But we are also X's friend. We will make it clear to him that his behaviour is unacceptable. If he intends to do something about it.....we will support him in that because we do care for him".
Maybe, had they said that, you too might be able to live with it. But they didn't. They invited him to their home and avoided you. They continued to deny his behaviour and your suffering. That's not kind at all.
The practical example I gave my kids was that if A hits B, and both are your friend, then you can go to B and say: "I'm sorry A hit you. That was wrong and mean. It hurt you. I'm your friend. I'll stay here until you feel better." and they can go to B, later and say: "B, I'm your friend. Why did you hit A? That hurt A. It was wrong and mean. I will stay with you and help you figure out what to do about it."
My hope was that my children learned a few things.
1. That their feelings count. They care about both people. They are allowed to do that. Their feelings are valid and important.
2. Not to trust gossip (because I've always had this....problem....with gossip....can't stand it). To go and be honest and truthful and wait for the other person to tell their side. Gossip can be very distorted.
3. Sometimes....people do things they regret. Sometimes they will have the courage to do better with the support of a friend.
I do not believe people's bad behaviour is exusable. For me, if I care about both people, I want to support both. I don't end relationships simply because my friend behaves badly. I end them, if my friend refuses to fess up, be accountable, show an attempt to correct the behaviour and the harm caused. I don't think really bad behaviour should ever get a free pass. I don't refuse to support my wronged friend. That would be insane. I support my wronged friend first. But my friend who behaved wrong, might be the friend that needs my support the most. And I feely give it, if there is hope for change and correction.
I have a friend who's son murdered someone my friend cared about.
If we go by the.... end relationships with those who hurt others practice, my friend would be expected to end her relationship with her own son.
There are some grey areas when it comes to some absolutes, imo.
Sorry for the long shpeel. I'm not always the best at the condensed version. :oops:
GFN
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GFN,
I have a friend who's son murdered someone my friend cared about.
Not to turn this into a forgiveness thread, but there is an elderly pastor in our community who has spoken at our church a few times. He told us his amazing story of forgiveness.
He had a lovely daughter who had an unlovely boyfriend. This unlovely man became very jealous at one point and murdered the pastor's lovely daughter.
The pastor visited the bum in jail after his conviction and actually forgave him, in tears of course.
But he didn't stop there. He continued to visit the bum until he felt compelled to testify on his behalf for an early release.
He then took the man home to live with him and try and redeem him.
He remembers lying in bed, terrified the guy would get a knife in the middle of the night and do the same thing to him he did to his daughter.
But the guy was redeemed. He's never been in trouble again. Has gone on to lead a decent life. But that wasn't the point for the father. He forgave him for his own peace of spirit not the murderers.
I'm not saying try this at home. If the guy who murdered my daughter was sleeping in my house I'd say there was a much better chance of me stabbing him in the middle of the night than vice versa. I don't know how he forgave him. Well actually I know where he got the strength, but I don't think I could do it.
Your friend's son just reminded me of what I think is a pretty amazing story, whether you think he was right or wrong.
And now back to our regular programming. :wink:
mudpup
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That's pretty awesome, mud. I don't know if I could manage it.
I did disarm my sibling, years ago, in the middle of the night, completely out of its mind on some chemical, after it had slashed the palm of one of my parents, remember. Then I called the police and had my sibling taken away.
I was then and am now damn near certain that I prevented at least a double, and maybe a triple murder that night. My parents and myself.
Would I have forgiven my sibling for killing them if that had happened and I had escaped the same fate? I honestly can't say. I do know, however, that if my sibling had killed me that night, it wouldn't have caused my parents a moment's discomfort, except the kind my mother used to exploit, in order to get sympathy from onlookers.
That realization affects the point of view a little.
I suspect I'd be more like Ted Kaczynski's brother, who figured out that Theodore was the Unabomber and then - turned him in.
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GFN, yes.
If my friends had had the decency to believe me and validate my pain - and - to confront the mutual acquaintances who abused me in their presence,
I'd never even have needed to start this thread.
thanks,
Storm
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Stormy:
I'm sorry your friends are so deep in denial and so cowardly. I think that's what it boils down to. ((((Stormy))))
Mud: That is truly an incredible story. That pastor must be close to saint hood. His example does indicate that we never really know what we'll do until we actually face something. That goes double for friends.
The friends I thought would do heroics on my behalf, didn't... and those I never suspected had it in them, came through like superman/woman. Go figger?? :D
GFN
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Stormy,
Look ma no asterisks
Good for you :!: :D Did you find a support group to help you deal with this :?:
Stormy, Muddy, GFN, Bunny and anyone else who may have weighed in on this,
I think we have used such a broad spectrum of examples of transgressions that it would be hard to lump them all together. One friend hitting another among children is one thing, a murderer killing a daughter is a whole other thing and then everything in between.
I think it is a good lesson for children to learn to take responsibility for bad behavior and also that of forgiveness. I look at children as in the process of building their character and they can be forgiven for making bad choices as long as they admit them and take some level of responsibility.
I think that when adults make choices to behave in hurtful, harmful ways, they are demonstrating a strong lack of character. They may like my H, admit that their behavior is unacceptable to most people, but if there is no ceasing of the behavior, no taking of responsibility for the harm it caused, and feeling entitled to that behavior for their own happiness, there is obviously a total lack of character and I would need to end a friendship with someone who did this. The fact that my former friends did not see this, IMO shows their lack of character.
I hold people to standards of behavior and treatment towards me, to the same standard I hold myself. I try to remain sensitive to someone having bad times, bad days, complications within their own lives, etc., which may make it difficult for them to respond to my needs. But eventually there needs to be give and take, and when they only take and do not ever give, I give up. It is too hard to always be supportive and never be supported.
I don't think we necessarily disagree on this topic, but I just think we are talking about very different degrees of negative behaviors.
Brigid
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Dearest Storm. Can I slip in a quick thank you to GFN, Mud, Longtire, Bunny? I've been absent but wanted to acknowledge them for support current and past and.... Thank you Storm for that space. Now for you, my heart hurts.
I know you've seen it, but this para was you talking almost about your parents, to me. What floors me is that they are absolutely incapable - as a couple - of seeing the split between their own experience and perception of abuse when it happens to them, and their expectation of acceptance and support, and their utter, total refusal to believe that abuse ever happens to me at the hands of a mutual acquaintance, or to accept and support me in any way when it does.
We seek out the same abusive relationships, wherever. Like a treadmill.
I almost laughed: I wonder how much charity is really disguised (and not very well, at that) condescension?
better than/worse than/anything 'more than' or it's only me this happens to (note any lack of personal agency) etc and I start to wonder. I didn't laugh. I sighed. Big sighs.
that if my sibling had killed me that night, it wouldn't have caused my parents a moment's discomfort, except the kind my mother used to exploit, in order to get sympathy from onlookers.
That realization affects the point of view a little.
Angry angry bitterness and the clear, shining truth. What do you, Storm, do with it, if you feel it too? I don't know what to do with mine. I don't want to be bitter, even the word, bitter, sounds sharp and hurtful. But how can I just accept it? That she does not care whether I live or die? That she would take some kind of enjoyment from my death?
I must write my Will :D I do have that little control of my life, er, :? actually my 'stuff'. I know it hurts (((Storm))). I'm sorry. P
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Hi Portia:
But how can I just accept it? That she does not care whether I live or die? That she would take some kind of enjoyment from my death?
As if I know the answer? But I'll try....suggest and you can think about it, ok?
What if.....you decide it doesn't matter? Her enjoyment doesn't matter. Her taking (trying to take) doesn't matter. Her not caring doesn't matter.
None of her stuff matters.
What if you somehow let go of all that you expected of her and form new non-expectations? Sort of....expect nothing and you won't be disappointed?
I know this isn't usual but it might be a way to let go?? I don't know. It will take effort and definately a rearranging of thoughts. But it might be worth the trouble??
((((Portia))))
GFN
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that if my sibling had killed me that night, it wouldn't have caused my parents a moment's discomfort, except the kind my mother used to exploit, in order to get sympathy from onlookers.
That realization affects the point of view a little.
Angry angry bitterness and the clear, shining truth. What do you, Storm, do with it, if you feel it too? I don't know what to do with mine. I don't want to be bitter, even the word, bitter, sounds sharp and hurtful. But how can I just accept it? That she does not care whether I live or die? That she would take some kind of enjoyment from my death?
Dear P:
Mostly, what I do with it is - keep telling the truth about it, and try to see the truth around me, even when painful - fight lies and abuse and denial. Those are the things that damaged the people who damaged me. Those are the things to fight.
It's a derned small army, though. :shock: :shock: :shock:
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fight lies and abuse and denial. Those are the things that damaged the people who damaged me. Those are the things to fight.
OH Stormy how true!! And the army may be small but they are such courageous buggers!!! :D
GFN
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((((((((((GFN))))))))))
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Hello All:
I had a similar circumstance crop up at my part time job yesterday.
Preface:
I work part time at a gym. My autistic son does some volunteering there, you know helping wash towels, folding etc. Well I went to some trouble to get some other disabled people to work on other shifts to help volunteer as well. Everyone wins. The people who work the front desk do not have to do this task, and these folks who otherwise would have nothing to do, get something productive to do.
Well the guy who is over the Membership Desk goes and hires a "friend". He is working a shift after I do. Well we had a meeting last week and this oaf begins to complain about the "volunteers" being slow. What the real problem is, is he is a small time N with big ambitions. He is to GOOD to wash towels and fold. So he complains because the has to do this on his shift. So he complains about our special folks being to slow. He does this complaining with other people who have children who are disabled at this meeting. My son is also present.
Well needless to say, the momma claws came out big time. I told him in this meeting:
1. What time is your shift? ( He always comes in late) If you would
come in on time maybe you would not have so much back log in the
laundry to do.
2. These folks who are volunteers are overseen by me and I assure you
that their job is always done.
The next day I told my immediate supervisor that this person was
1. Not be be around me
2. That I really did not care who he was friends with, I could care less
3. Washing towels and folding was part of his job and it was to bad
he felt he was to good for that
4. He was not to tell me what to do he was not my immediate supervisor
My immediate supervisor told me she also felt he was getting "to big for his britches". She related to me that she told the Memebership Director of my complaint.
I am at the age that I really don't care anymore. If you are going to act like an " n....sshole around me, you will pay.
There is another woman who works the desk with me and is very well connected and she is also going to see the Director of the Gym and tell him that she cannot belong to an organization that condones this kind of behaviour. This might matter inasmuch she belongs to numerous boards, also has a disabled son that helps me, and was hired specficially to help with the fund raising this Fall because she knows so many people. This little N is going to pay.
The moral of this story. If you have people around you that are acting inappropriately at your expense, your children's expense, they have to be called on it. If they do not contribute to your well being, if they are a millstone around your neck because of their Nnss, what do you care WHAT they think? I have come to realize that their "specialness" is not a requirement for me to feel good about myself.
Sorry for the rant folks, but this budding N is going to get nipped.
Patz :twisted:
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Patz,
Good for you my friend. :D :D Isn't it amazing what age does for self-confidence? I really don't give a rat's behind anymore about stepping on toes, if they're stuck out there for someone to trip over. People need to be made accountable for selfish, insensitive behavior.
I'm proud of you. :D :D
Brigid
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GFN and Storm, thank you. Brain hurts. Maybe I need to confront the ‘nothing’ that I get, up close and personal. Maybe I need to tell her my truth, once and for all, ground zero. Maybe then I could let it go by necessity. That is scary. (What are you afraid of P?) Lots. Living. Gotta fight my own denial Storm. I just found a new challenger, a new opponent for the life-force to counter-balance! And it's me. I hate this. I love you guys. Thanks many times. P
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Brigid:
IT is amazing what age does. Apparently there are some good things despite the gravity thingi going on with my body. LOL :)
Now that I have got that out of my system I am ready to go meet the day Brigid. Have a good one. Check ya later.
Patz
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((((((((((Brigid, Patz, Portia))))))))))
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Hello all:
Thanks for the hug, Stormy. Same to you. ((((((Stormy)))))
Patz: Some people!!! Good for you for taking the reigns!! Who cares what they think is right!!! 8)
Hi Brigid: Just wanted to say Hi! :D
Portia:
Maybe I need to tell her my truth, once and for all, ground zero.
How do you think she might react? What might come out of her mouth?
Which hurts more? Imagining/guessing? Not saying/playing?
Does letting go mean the relationship you have, or the one you wish for?
Sorry about your brain, P. It'll be ok. It's a good brain. :D
GFN
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ps:
Forgot to say.....questions for you to consider. Not to answer here, if you don't feel like it, Portia.
GFN
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Hi all --
The folks I was thinking about when I started this thread have been in touch... called yesterday. My birthday is coming up and they want to 'do something'.
Mind, now, I've been on a ten week leave of absence and they could have 'done something' anytime during the last two months.
This has nothing to do with me, and I see that very clearly.
So I told them, no, I'm not celebrating my birthday [translation: I'm not inconveniencing myself so someone else can have a party that won't really be about me or my birthday for more than ten seconds, if that].
Then I said, if you want to do something, here are the names of two friends I work with who know (the male half of this pair) [because I introduced them all]. You guys set up a lunch some day at which they will also be present, and I'll be happy to show. That's all I want, and I don't want any presents.
This, I think, will involve sufficient work, and disallow sufficient self-indulgence, that it will never happen.
Oooowee, I bit a pickle today. :evil: :evil: :evil: Sorry!
Added on edit: well, I'll be darned. I just recalled something very informative... when my noisy neighbors first moved in, I had a really baaaad feeling about them, and I remember telling these folks about that. You guessed it. Never having met, or even seen, these people, they defended THEM....
Jeez Louise. I don't need this. Thanks, everyone, for correcting my vision here!
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Hey Stormy,
Maybe you could have a birthday party here. There are all sorts of people here who would love to help you celebrate, and who think your noisy neighbors are twits. I volunteer Brigid for food right off the bat. :lol: :wink:
Are your 'friends' introspective at all? Do they know how they are or are they just oblivious to others feelings. Or maybe just your feelings.
I've never met anybody who would defend a noisy twerp in an apartment building, not even another noisy twerp.
If you have a party I'll bring my stomach again. :wink: :P :oops:
mudpup
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Go Stormy Go!!!
Good for you for clearly stating your wishes and going with your gut.
Pass those pickles!!! :D :D :D (hope they're loaded with garlic!!).
You guessed it. Never having met, or even seen, these people, they defended THEM....
What idiocy!! They should live next door to them then!! :evil:
I love it when people who haven't got a clue look dummer than me by jamming their whole leg down their throat!! It really boosts my self-esteem!!! 8)
If you do go for lunch, have a blast!! Laugh a lot and ignor whatever ridiculous comments they make, by changing the subject to whatever makes you smile. :D :D :D
Happy Birthday coming up Stormy!!! It's your day!!!
GFN
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I kind of mis-spoke myself, but not entirely.
It was more denial than defense, in a way. One of those "Oh, I'm sure they'll turn out to be perfectly nice" pieces of BS which really mean, "dont bother me with your problems, I don't want to hear about them."
No, I don't think they can see the problem. The gal was so badly abused by her mother that she has a dissociative disorder and a pain threshhold that is frightening... she's neglected her health in some terrifying ways.
And yet they're spending this weekend at her mother's, and have spent many other weekends likewise during the last two months.
So.... on some level they prefer the company of people who abuse them. And have a truly horrifying level of denial. Thanks for the thought, I realized this wasn't about me, and now I'm realizing that the denial is so extreme that there isn't really room for friendship, because at this time in my life I refuse to buy into any more of it, or have it foisted on me.
However, I don't have to be mean. I don't have to even be explicit. I can just quietly fade away.
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Stormy,
You celebrate your birthday the way that makes you happy. As I recall, it is a "big" one and should be special if you want it to be in the way you want it to be.
I guess I'll have to start cleaning again because our darling Mudbrother got his belly in gear and:
I volunteer Brigid for food right off the bat.
That's what I get for opening my big mouth. :shock:
When is the big day? I'll be there with your favorite cake. :D
Brigid
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Unfortuntaely, it's next Saturday - not this coming one, the one after, the 14th. The board's pretty dead on weekends.
However, after a lifetime of having final exams and so forth on the exact dang day, I never try to celebrate on it anyway. :? :?
I will be back at work full time Monday the 16th & ff, so I'll just catch up with any good wishes sent my way in the evenings, after I get home. With any luck we can prolong this for a solid week :wink: .
Thanks all :!: :!: :D :D :D
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Stormchild,
I also find it oppressive when people (okay my parents) want to "celebrate" my birthday, and it's just a big hassle for me. Somehow i always feel guilty on my birthday, like I TOOK something from my mother rather than contributed to her life. Anyway I almost dread my birthday except I give myself presents for at least a week -- usually a month. And it's coming up soon.
bunny
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Bunny, I hope you are able to do what makes you feel good, when you want to, in exactly the way you want to, as you observe your birthday.
Thanks for that message of support.
I can't think of any group of people I'd rather hang with on my natal day than y'all here.
Thanks, y'all, for that too.