Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: N-Jaded on April 24, 2005, 07:56:44 PM
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Well, yesterday after a request I asked nicely for was ignored and again disrespected. I finally got mad.
He had started hiding things after we agreed that nothing would be taken from the house until the judge decided who was to take what. So after he dis'd me I took a couple of things he was hiding and moved them to let's say a new hiding place. And I also took his Sunday paper to work with me this morning. :D I don't know which pissed him off worse but he is plenty mad...left me a real nice letter tonight. I shouldn't of done it. I stooped to his childish level, and again I'm only hurting myself in the long run.
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Njaded: Don't be afraid of his reaction or feel bad about what you did...so you "stooped", so what? Robin is right, it wouldn't make a spit of difference anyway...you just handed him something to get pissed about, but he'd find something to be mad at anyway. My ex is angry at the sun coming up in the morning! Blah blah blah....that's essentially how you should "hear" his letter.
Hope you had a nice cup of coffee and a scone while reading the paper!
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N-jaded, I wouldn't be surprised if he (secretly?) had more respect for you now. Or at least maybe more fear. :twisted: I don't recommend keeping that kind of thing up, but I totally understand the frustration of trying to be the "good' one all the time. Sometimes you just hit your limits. Yours seems pretty mild.
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N-jaded-- I think it's cool that you did that. Now maybe he'll think twice about hiding things. Of course, he might decide to do it more, but he was already doing it so.... ? They are so hard to predict sometimes that it isn't clear that you can do anything "wrong" at this point anyway.
My sister stole a lot of things from me throughout childhood and still has some of them. Some of the stuff actually matters to me, like jewelry mom and dad gave me for special occasions. It has occured to me to steal it back. I never have and I see that this behavior would not be at the top of the page in a "how to be super-well-adjusted" self-help book but.... sometimes things we do are symbolic.
When you took the stuff back you were symbolically saying that not everything is his to do with as he likes. You were rejecting his implicit statement that he can behave any old way that pleases him and that you will let him. And taking the newspaper was a harmless way of explaining to him that you are a person with power, too. It's not as if it's so tough for him to go buy another newspaper....
It's funny he wrote you an angry letter. Because were you allowed to be angry at what -he- did? I think not. So screw him. (Sorry, my language has gotten atrocious).
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I'm not sure where his mind is at. Nor do I really want to know. But to me, the very fact that he started to hide things to begin with said to me that he had every intention of taking them. These are material things, which can be replaced... I don't really care who gets them (but he doesn't know that) Frankly, it's his arrogant sense of entitlement that I am so frustrated with and I guess I wanted to punish him for that. He did finally give me the answer to my original request in that threatening letter he wrote. So, should I return the item I moved?
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N-Jaded
I know exactly where you are coming from on this one.
I have done the same thing. Don't feel badly about it. We're allowed to be human. We can only take so much from these N monsters.
I'm sure you'll be back to your proactive self in no time. Nothing wrong with being reactive on occasion.
((N-Jaded))
Mia
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Hi N-Jaded,
OMG, I have to voice the same opinion as those who think it was kind of cool that you did what you did ... perhaps because I have done similar things and because what you did was harmless, completely harmless.
I can relate to it because most of what I did in the past was kind of childish, but I knew it was harmless. During the process of moving, I found a gift that the OW had given him, so I threw it in the trash. Took another gift at one point and did the same thing. Etc.
I can so relate to taking the newspaper, too, because I know what a creature of habit my exN is and it bothered him no end if anything interfered with reading the newspaper (eventhough he also read e-news extensively every day, too). I think it is hilarious that you took it! (hope that's okay!)
So don't take his wrath seriously at all. I honestly think that you showed him you're not the pushover he may have thought you were. And that's a good thing.
Have a nice day,
New Day
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He did finally give me the answer to my original request in that threatening letter he wrote. So, should I return the item I moved?
No. He wrote a threatening letter. You can't reinforce that behavior. Hiding things he originally hid is not a big deal. Yes it's childish but what does he expect? He provoked you. It shouldn't lead to threats. Don't do anything yet. The next move is about mutual agreements not to hide and not to threaten. If that doesn't happen, let the things remain in escrow for a while.
bunny
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I'm not sure where his mind is at.
I think I know! :twisted: Same place his head is at.
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N-Jaded, I think once we are pushed far enough, we all act out.
I was going to put this on the 'releasing' thread but realized it really belongs here. Telling one on me. Big time.
Where I work, we seem to accumulate people with major personality disorders. Not everyone there, I hasten to add, but certainly many of 'em.
We used to have one flaming borderline who liked to wait until everyone else had gone home - I come in later, stay later than most - and then show up in my office and shriek and scream abuse at me, over stuff she'd imagined, entirely.
First time it happened I thought she was psychotic. Second time it happened I had described her to my t, who told me to read about BPD (and I'd checked around among other reasonably normal people to see who else had gotten this: surprise: most of them) so I sat back and crossed my arms and when she was through said, 'thanks for sharing' and went back to my work.
That wasn't enough to stop her, so the third time she started it, I looked up at her, curled my upper lip back from my teeth, and started growling. Then, I began to stand up, verrrry slowly, keeping my eyes on her the entire time, and growling more and more loudly. More like a dog growl than a cat growl.
That solved the problem. Not only did she disappear immediately, but she sidled along the wall whenever I saw her in the hallway. Didn't take long after that for her to leave. The workplace. To much surreptitious applause.
Of course, until she left, whenever I encountered her in the absence of witnesses, I did the lip-curling thing again, with a short snarl.
Gotta keep reminding them, you know.
Not entirely proud of it, but I suspect it is the only example of perfect communication with a majorly dysfunctional oik in my entire life.
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Thank-you all for points of view. You have certainly lightened my heart. The good news...no nasty letter waiting for me tonight. Just a piece of mail that ironically was titled Marriage Matters that he ripped in half and wrote "Yeah...right" on it. Ya know why does he have this reaction now? He hasn't put 2 cents into this marriage in over 2 yrs and he knows that and now that it's ending he acts mad. I know..I need not question the whys anymore. Thank-you all again.
P.S. New Day, yes now that you mention it the newspaper thing was funny..he is religious with the Super Sunday Sales Spectaculars! They are the first things he goes through, only after he neatly seperates them into their respective categories. :D
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Stormchild Guesting.
OMG...I don't think I could have ever done that! Kudos to you. Not knowing you I can only assume that your growl is worse than your bite? :)
I was reading parts from a book today on BPD it was called "Stop walking on eggshells." It said that there were new studies showing promising results with the use of antidepressants and mood stabalizers for ppl w/BPD. I am thinking that the PD that agrees to this must be actively seeking help.
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Not entirely proud of it, but I suspect it is the only example of perfect communication with a majorly dysfunctional oik in my entire life.
oop - see other thread re: communicating. i agree! -i- would be proud of it!
they are growling at us. they just found silky words to do it with.
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oops - unclear. what i meant was,
-i- would be proud of it!
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PromQueenCasualty did something way more impressive re a neighbor who apparently had some similar PD. I forget which thread she posted about it on, but it was impressive and then some.
This was a unique case. And I have to admit, I did try to relate to this person initially. But once she went BPD on me, that was a point of no return for her, and thus for me. It was very clear to me that she really enjoyed the screaming abusive carrying on.
It's so sad, though. So much wasted time, thought, feeling.
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There is a big difference between ACTIONS and REACTIONS. What you did was a reaction to his actions. Nothing to be ashamed about in that.
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I was reading parts from a book today on BPD it was called "Stop walking on eggshells." It said that there were new studies showing promising results with the use of antidepressants and mood stabalizers for ppl w/BPD. I am thinking that the PD that agrees to this must be actively seeking help.
I'm reading that book, too, in order to understand family members and friends. Which, it is helping with tremendously, but the big surprise :oops: is that I found myself in my 20's in there, too. Not big and full-fledged (I didn't yell at coworkers!) but definitely there, especially in romantic relationships. I was really happy to yell at them, in public, wherever.
And now I do not have it at all, in any area of life. People who know me now would be really surprised to know that I used to have it. So it isn't like NPD, I don't think. It is caused by insecurities and (for some people) traumatic stress, which can be fixed with growing up, life success, therapy therapy therapy, and (for some folks) meds.
Which doesn't mean people will fix themselves. in my experience, if people have it into their late 30's and 40's and beyond, they are less likely to ever get over it. I have a coworker who is EXACTLY like the one you describe, but add pathological lying to the mix. I don't have the nerve to growl at her (I love that you did that!), but I do give her the icy Vunil stare of death. It basically means "don't give me any bs, bitch, I am onto you." And she runs away from me now... Fewer lies to have to listen to.
Sorry if this was off topic....
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Right on topic, Vunil.
Yep. The one I was dealing with was at least mid-forties and clearly got far too many 'secondary gains' from acting like a Froot Loop, so there was little or no likelihood of a cure.
You was different. Something in you didn't really find what you were trying, behaviorally, to be satisfying enough to stay with. Hoo-rah, yee-HAH, and other encouraging noises!
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Perhaps I should have posted this on Vunil's thread. But I am also curious to know what are the major differences between the NPD and BPD. Many of the traits listed in walking on eggshells of BPD my NSpouse exhibits. Could anyone shed some light on this for me? Thank-you.
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Im not so sure that the behaviors are so much different between someone who is NPD and BPD. The causes are very much different but as far as their actions, I believe they are very much alike.
I think with people who are BP their behaviors and actions are triggered by chemical malfunctions. People with NPD, their behaviors and actions are triggered by a lack of or absence of coping mechanisms.
They have medication that can help those with BPD. To bad they havent come up with a magical cure for NPD.
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Many of the traits listed in walking on eggshells of BPD my NSpouse exhibits. Could anyone shed some light on this for me? Thank-you.
They are extremely similar. Here are some general guidelines I use:
Someone with dominant N traits is more likely to be confident, independent, their own neediness is hidden or rejected, overtly aggressive, overtly selfish, particular about who they like/dislike, more aware of what they want and don't want, looking for supplies that feed their grandiosity. Far more fearful of being deflated and narcissistically injured.
Someone with dominant B traits is more likely to be dependent, less emotionally stable, unable to be alone, will go from person to person looking for supplies, not very picky about who they choose, more overtly child-like, more overtly anxious, tends to be unreliable, to idealize someone, get disappointed and devalue them. Far more fearful of abandonment.
HOW I DEAL WITH THEM DIFFERENTLY: With a dominantly narcissistic person, I avoid deflating them. I give them a lot of understanding and ignore a lot of their blustering. With this method many Ns are actually fairly nice to me.
With a dominantly borderline person (much more difficult), I actually try to stay away from them altogether. If that isn't possible, I am very firm, confident, do not show any confusion or wavering, and let them believe I am a "scary" person. I find that setting limits is the most important thing, otherwise they walk all over me and I hate myself for letting it happen.
bunny
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They have medication that can help those with BPD
It's possible (and maybe I'll go look this up) that the same meds that help bpd (anti-anxiety and/or anti-depression medicine) might help N's, if they were ever willing to go get it. I'm not sure.
Narcissism is caused by reactions to deep shame. The problem is, the reaction works really well, and the shame isn't felt, so it isn't clear the medicine would be able to correct anything. Maybe a narcissist trying to change would really benefit, because the medicine would help with that super-scary time of admitting they aren't god.
In my experience BPD's "wear" their craziness much more than N's do. They sort of know that they are off, but can't fix it. N's have no clue they are anything less than fabulous. Even if their subconscious does not have confidence, they have no clue what's bubbling underneath. I think that's why so few ever get better.
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The medication used for BPD is used to help balance hormonal and chemical imbalances. I am not saying that N cant have imbalances, quite the contrary. There is a defensive mechanism within us all called the "Fight or Flight." I am positive when my ex got all wound up, he definately showed signs and symptoms of the Fight or Flight state.
The only medications that I could remotely think of that might benefit N would be those medications that take the edge off. I can only speak for myself and my situation with my N. But I honestly feel that if he had some type of medication that would have taken the edge off, he would have not escalated into his fits of violence.
Bi-polar ppl have a physical imbalance. Narcis have an emotional imbalance. Nothing but good ole therapy is gonna heal emotional malfunctions.
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Bi-polar ppl have a physical imbalance. Narcis have an emotional imbalance.
oop, not to be technical but 'BPD' can stand for either 'bipolar disorder', which is a mood disorder, and also 'borderline personality disorder', which is a personality disorder....
just peeking in to say that :)
i understand borderline is considered difficult to treat..... while bipolar is very treatable..
personality involves the way one chooses to react to the world, so you have to really be willing to change a lot of deep stuff to get over a personality disorder i think..... bipolar as you said can often be cured with just meds
anna
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well caught, anna, i was just thinking the same thing earlier today and totally forgot to say anything.
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Its funny because I thought my N had bi-polar disorder. He had many ups and down moods......
Thank you for setting that one straight for me...wink
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Someone with dominant N traits is more likely to be confident, independent, their own neediness is hidden or rejected, overtly aggressive, overtly selfish, particular about who they like/dislike, more aware of what they want and don't want, looking for supplies that feed their grandiosity. Far more fearful of being deflated and narcissistically injured.
Someone with dominant B traits is more likely to be dependent, less emotionally stable, unable to be alone, will go from person to person looking for supplies, not very picky about who they choose, more overtly child-like, more overtly anxious, tends to be unreliable, to idealize someone, get disappointed and devalue them. Far more fearful of abandonment.
Thanks Bunny. I think this is the best description of the two disorders I have read or at least be able to understand!
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The ex sounds like a combo. Is that possible?
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The ex sounds like a combo. Is that possible?
Absolutely! People do not fit neatly into little psychological boxes. I believe my wife straddles the line here too. Not that little psychological boxes are not helpful, reality is just inherently "messy."