Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: write on April 26, 2005, 06:49:26 AM
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I'm wondering how many people here have had depression or bipolar or other mental health symptoms, and when they ran into n's those people seemed like the insight and answer to all their prayers?
I know for me ( living with bipolar 1 ) I ATTRACT n's...3 times in a row, each different from the other.
Each did less damage because I was wiser to narcissism.
But~ anyone got any explanations for what's happening in this pattern of relating???
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Hiya Write:
I have absolutely no expertise in this area but I have recently been wondering something....
What if.......it's really that the N people are just intensely keen about locating the vunerable? I mean, rather than certain susceptable people being attracted to N's, what if..it's the N's who are just wizzards at finding people who will comply with their needs?
In that case....then maybe the solution is to work on really not being a target? In other words, ridding depression, taking meds for Bipolar, doing therapy, working on improving our vision of self/self worth, getting involved in activities that add joy to our lives, including satisfying work, joining social groups that give us pleasure and help us feel like we belong, forming relationships with people we admire/respect as friends, basically, working on being the best we can be....doing all possible to make life as happy and comfortable and full-filling as possible?
I wonder if maybe then.....a person would not give off whatever it is that is given off that gets these N's sniffing around and finding a hunger for??
I can't see them going for a happy, content, confident, independant, satisfied, person who appears to have a handle on life and who has a strong support system of good friends. Don't they want people they think they can control easily and who they see as weak and alone?
GFN
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I agree with gfn. I think, also, there is this little dance that happens. When I was much more vulnerable (I had a lot of borderline characteristics in my youth, big on the drama and insecutiry) I would seek out people who seemed "strong." Probably there was this inperceptible moment when I lingered my gaze or time on some man who was particularly arrogant and tall and confident. He noticed this, and also noticed I was insecure and a little all over the place in my reactions, and liked that (ala gfn's theory). So, we started flirting. Somewhere along the way he said something to me patently untrue, or confusing, or selfish in some odd way. I went along with it, or more likely fluttered around in infatuated confusion right in front of him. Fun! (he thought). Later he upped the ante and outright insulted me. I would cry or cling to him or otherwise show that his insult affected me a lot. I'd ask him what I could do to improve. He would give me advice. I would be greatful. My cute little borderline self would make a big ta-do over everything that happened, thus amplifying him in a way that he just adored.
And so it went.
At any point in that dance one of us could have stopped, but it was all perfectly coreographed for maximum pathology....
Eventually it would fall apart, of course, being built on absolute ridiculousness, but not before my self-esteem was in complete tatters.
Now I can't stand men like that. If I find myself with the slightest attraction for one, I make myself get away from him until it goes away-- I'm still capable of being attracted to N men, but no longer able to like them or admire them, and really unwilling to date them. So, progress? I think that those men remind me of how I acted before and it is terrifying. In fact, I am much more likely to be firmly stern with them now than anything else, to keep them in line. Of course, there is another issue-- now that I'm not as young and cute they are less likely to come running after me :)
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I also agree with GFN that these N's have a way of sniffing out the most vulnerable among us. My guess would be, that if their sniffer was incorrect, they would quickly be moving on to their next potential victim.
I also agree that they way to combat this is through therapy and a lot of building of the self. I have started dating again, and I find that I can easily move on from someone that I do not feel is sincerely (and that is the tricky part) interested in an equal relationship. We all know that N's can disguise their behaviors behind a mask of charm in the beginning, but I think I am getting pretty good at recognizing that. I guess time will tell.
Brigid
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What everyone else said. The N has this magical combination: Exciting/Rejecting. It is pretty compelling to all of us, but when we've worked on ourselves and know ourselves, we tend to pass over these types fairly quickly. They only have a superficial attraction. If you are kind of codependent, the "exciting/rejecting" combination is hugely addicting. And the codependent has the perfect combination of insecurity/dependency which they find compelling. The trick is to avoid these people when you feel the addictive attraction. And if they feel their addictive urge toward you, be very boring and they will move on.
bunny
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I agree they have a nose for the vulnerabe, but I think they test virtually everyone they meet to ascertain their vulnerability. I doubt if its some sixth sense that says "hey vunil over there looks like a good target"
Its some kind of subtle radar recepters that allow them to detect who is likely to supply them with their own weird brand of nectar after a little interaction, just the way vunil described it.
Here's my question.
Where are the men, who are equivalent to all you women who married Ns?
What I've read says from 50-75% of Ns are men.
So why are there about well, zero cases of men stuck with an N wife here?
Longtire's sounds a lot closer to BPD.
Is it because men aren't attracted to N women?
That doesn't seem likely, since a lot of people here had N mothers.
Or is it because men married to Ns suffer in silence or are too ashamed to talk about it?
Or maybe men just hit the ground running when they figure it out?
I'm interested in any theories because I have no idea of my own.
Sorry if this temporarily hijacks your thread write. :oops:
mudpup
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Bunny,
If you are kind of codependent, the "exciting/rejecting" combination is hugely addicting. And the codependent has the perfect combination of insecurity/dependency which they find compelling.
Thank you for such a succinct explanation. I find it scary how co-dependent I was (and potentially still could be). There's no doubt about what I need to continue to work on in therapy.
Brigid
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mudpup,
Many of the N's described here (male & female) have borderline traits. In men the N traits are more visible, and in women the borderline traits are usually more visible. This is because narcissism is more "independent" in style while borderline is more "dependent" in style. Men get together with narcissistic women all the time. I think they're more likely to rationalize/find ways to adapt and less likely to talk about it.
bunny
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mudpup,
Men get together with narcissistic women all the time. I think they're more likely to rationalize/find ways to adapt and less likely to talk about it.
bunny
Plus:
based on the things I overheard from pals who talked freely in front of me, an awful lot of men - not all of them, mind you, but a lot -
really dislike women, waaay down deep.
So. If the one they end up with is the kind of screaming nutbar I had to growl at in the office, doesn't this just confirm them in that dislike? and give them something to p*ss & moan about to their pals at Unhappy Hour? And.... help them justify cheating, etc.?
Believe me, I saw quite a bit of that mindset before I was even 30.
Men who like women, and are comfortable talking with them as people, and can actually discuss both the thoughts and the feelings happening under their own skins without doubting themselves in some basic way, are sadly somewhat rare compared to these other fellows.
I think we're incredibly lucky to have two of you on board, mud & long. And I know we are grateful as all getout.
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I would love to come across someone with NPD that would explain truthfully, openly, and precisely what triggers their actions and thoughts. All of our questions would be answered wouldnt they?
Trouble with that is their credibility would be questioned because of our experiences with N.
I comapare N victims to wild horses. There are some you can catch and train and there are some that you can catch but never succeed at training. There are some of us whose spirit couldnt be broken. Yet there are some of us who changed the second we connected with a N. I know N leaves ever lasting effects on everyone but I feel alot of compassion and empathy for those who are completely and whole heartedly sucked into the N web.
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Mudpup,
So why are there about well, zero cases of men stuck with an N wife here?
Other than my own therapy, I have 0 psychological knowledge, but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway. I think it has something to do with the differences in the way men and women are wired. I am going to generalize here and I obviously know there are always exceptions (necessary disclaimer :roll: ).
I think, for one thing, that most men do not question the level of intimacy in their relationships. We all know that most men cringe, run, hide under the coffee table, whatever, when their significant other suggests "that we need to talk." In most cases (my H being a big exception), men might have issue with a lack of physical intimacy, but probably not with the mental aspect of it (might be totally relieved, in fact).
I also think men have perfected "tuning out" better and if their wife is ranting or raving, they just don't hear it. They also may not internalize the negative crap being thrown their way to the same extent (if they are basically mentally healthy to begin with). We all know that boys can hurl stuff at each other one day and be pals the next. Not so with girls.
From what I've read on this site from people raised by N mothers, their Nness tended to be more incidious and sneaky, than raging and outwardly nasty. The husband may not be all that aware of what is going on.
Or maybe they were raised by an N or BPD mother and they think all women are like that. After all, many of us ladies raised by N fathers went on to choose N husbands.
All that being said, I also think that more men end up with this disorder because they probably didn't let it out over time, thought that therapy was for woosies and just kept sliding into the abyss.
I may be totally full of sh*# here, but it is an interesting discussion, nonetheless.
Brigid
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I think it's maybe a simpler explanation (along with the complicated ones, which are also apt)-- there are very few men here in general! We have two fabulous shining examples here, Mudpup and Longtire, and a few who show up sometimes.
Maybe this just isn't a guy kind of way of dealing with it.
I know lots of men who can't get enough of N-BPD women. My most borderline friend, who just doesn't even hide her craziness and is also very N, is like catnip to men. They can't get enough of her. When I was my insecure borderline self, men were all over me.
Just as some women want to lean on the "strong" NPD man, some men like to save the "weak" NPD-BPD lady. Other men seem really intrigued by women who are mean to them-- and they pick the most awful N women around. I have no idea what that is all about, but I have some friends who do it over and over again. It has made for some awkward dinner parties...
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My E-ears were burning, I heard my name mentioned here a few times. :wink: I am very grateful to have this place and of course it is the people who make this place what it is.
In general, (dangerous words) I think men are trained to act like rugged individualists, even when they are not. They are not trained to seek support and talk about their feelings. Believe me, after looking for abuse support for men, I can understand why. There is almost NONE out there, even with the wide range of the internet, where you can find anything. An abused man's best bet seems to be to call the "women's shelter" for help. There are a few things out there that are gender neutral, but the vast majority are geared toward women. Is this another case of the strong (seeming) one not getting the support they lack and so desperately need?
Most men are trained not to share their feelings, though I see that changing slowly in society. I crave talking and sharing, and I feel like a freak for for it. I suspect many men who feel the same way, but just aren't as stubborn as me to keep trying and give up after a while. :(
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Is this another case of the strong (seeming) one not getting the support they lack and so desperately need?:(
You know, Long, you may have nailed it. I remember seeing a book when I was in high school - early 70's - about how all this strong stuff really caused men health problems and so on. I wish I could remember the title of the book, it made quite an impression on me. Author was a psychologist, Herb something I think. Rats.
Anyway, it never seemed to get off the ground, that awareness of how society 'uses' men up. But for a couple of years there, it looked as though it might.
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there was a show on oprah where they showed child molestors discussing how they found their targets... they all said they searched out people who were vulnerable for -some- reason, could be lots of things, and then began a process of working up to figuring out if that person would submit to being a target...they always started small and if there was no objection, they escalated. they said if the person objected or showed hesitancy they would back off and move to searching out another target.
so i do think a big key is recognising those early red flags and not ignoring them or putting them off...
this is the same with cult rectruiters....
on a cult-escape list i read, there is much discussion that anyone can get caught by cult recruiters - who are very similar to N people - becuase those people are predators and they are expert at finding those with anything they can exploit. its what they do. but you can reduce your chances of being targeted by strengthening your social network, self esteem, ability to say 'no', etc.
anna
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Or is it because men married to Ns suffer in silence or are too ashamed to talk about it?
I think this comes the closest. From what I have read mostly on other forums, men are ashamed when they find out their bride is the bride from Hell. They'll say things like "how could I admit to anyone she hits me and I can't hit her back because she's a woman?" And I think women are cut a bit more slack when they act irrationally...like it's just hormonal stuff. Men are held to a higher standard so when they act out of the realm of acceptable, it is noted much more quickly. Women are also brought up to be more verbal than men so they will talk sooner about the bad stuff. Men who have custody issues will talk more freely since they are concerned about their kids. The others probably just go away. I'm in my 50's so there is a younger generation out there that might have a different insight. I know my father and my father-in-law just never talked about it period. Which was not good. I wish my father had talked about it and then I could have known it was not my fault...you know how kids always think when bad things happen in the family, it's their fault :( I'm glad you're talking about it! :D
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Hi Write,
I'm really sorry I hijacked your thread.
After I posted my questions about why there aren't more men here I realized I probably should have started a new thread. At the time it just seemed like a natural outgrowth of your question.
Sorry. :oops:
mudpuppy
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Hi write,
I agree with everything that has been said about the vulnerability quotient and the fact that a N finds that and co-dependence a winning combination in order to get the adoration and adulation they require.
My exN had an affair that I found out about way after the fact. He told me himself the woman was bipolar, and said she was not the strongest type. maybe a B (am not familiar with the types). When all hell broke loose and he was then onto another affair that he flaunted to me, I told him that until he met me, it seemed that all of his former gf's had some weakness that seemed to attract him, and then, ultimately wear him down or repel him. I did not know a thing about Nism at that time. I told him that he seemed to constantly think that someone was the perfect person for him but that person always had something wrong with her, so it was as though he would get into a relationship with them deliberately only to abandon them when they got too needy. Like he set it up that way from the beginning. Again, these were my perceptions, I had never read one book, article or word about Nism.
He admitted that I was right. He told me when we met that he'd never known anyone like me. I thought he was being overly romantic and a bit of a fake. But he insisted. I can see now he meant it. I did not fit the template or the model he had always used. He had no idea what to make of me. I actually wanted him to BE SOMEONE so when he kept mirroring me, I found it frustrating and didn't understand it. BE YOURSELF, I would say. I'll be me, you be YOU.
I do not mean to offend anyone by what I have said. The difference between a N going for a vulnerable person and a "normal" person being attracted to a vulnerable person is that a normal person likes that person for who they really are; a N is attracted to that person because that person will need them and build them up and give them the adoration. There is nothing wrong with being vulnerable! There is something wrong with the person who takes advantage of a vulnerable person.
My exN was in therapy for a number of years. You will love this, but I completely and truly believe that he USED his knowledge of therapy, not what he got out of it, to attract vulnerable women. It made him look like this enlightened, vulnerable guy who was trying to better himself ... BARF. He used it to make him look like a sensitive guy. I kid you not. He knew how to talk about his feelings b/c he learned to do so in therapy, but from what I can see, he was in therapy for an intellectual exercise that he went on to use to seek out prey.
To be honest, I thought he had a lousy therapist!!!!!
:lol:
New Day
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New Day,
To be honest, I thought he had a lousy therapist!!!!!
IMO any therapist who continues to treat a N with no results, has to be lousy. For the most part a NPD will stop seeing a therapist who is actually trying to deal with their issues.
My STBXNH had seen a therapist about 15 years ago when he first determined that he was ADHD (after our son was diagnosed). He saw the guy for maybe a year then stopped. He started back again with the same guy when I realized something was not right with him (before finding out about the affair, etc.) and I convinced him that he needed to talk to someone.
This therapist does not treat his internal issues, but deals with the external by convincing him to do things that make him feel good and recommended a bunch of books to read. I can't believe he actually pays for this, but like your xN, it probably makes him look like a guy who really cares about himself to the women he wants to attract. I don't know what his married girlfriend thinks (nor do I care), but its my understanding that she is also in therapy for her own set of issues, so I guess they are a well-matched set and maybe some day she'll be stupid enough to leave her husband for him.
I think it goes without saying that he has found another vulnerable victim to prey upon and she hasn't got a clue what she's in for. Whatever it is, she surely deserves it. :twisted:
Brigid
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There is something wrong with the person who takes advantage of a vulnerable person.
totally agree with that!
this is kind of late but been wanting to add this..... these 'vulnerabilities' dont actually have to be weaknesses, or what people might look at as 'negative' personality traits....
exploitable vulnerabilities also include 'positive' traits... like kindness - generosity - wanting to give people the 'benefit of the doubt' - being a humanitarian - unwillingness to be rude - wanting to help others.
predators will seek -anything- to exploit, these can be perfectly 'positive' traits. some predators (like cult recruiters) are actually trained to evaluate people, and locate which particular exploitable qualities they have, often idealism or other perfectly acceptable things.. in cults they do not want people with obvious mental illnesses (no offense, i am bipolar myself) or what other people would name as 'weaknesses' becuase those people will not work for the cult, and be high-functioning as they want. but they are still very successful at manipulating their targets nonetheless.
more 'self taught' manipulators - like the ones talked about here a lot - seem to just have a knack for it.... or they use things like knowlege of therapy to get a 'one up'. someone just sent me an interesting site about 'psychopaths' and sociopaths and it has some interesting insights on why people with no conscience and people who are willing to lie without remorse, have 'the benefit' in personal interactions. the benefit goes naturally toward the liar and away from the honest person. its an intersting dynamic.
http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm
d's mom
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Thanks for the link! I've been trying to find Hare's psychopathy checklist for more than a year. Bless you, there it was.
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Thanks for the link! I've been trying to find Hare's psychopathy checklist for more than a year.
wow, great.. its so gratifying when things turn out useful somehow.
:)
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he was in therapy for an intellectual exercise that he went on to use to seek out prey.
the latest n-man in my life treated everything like this- even when I told him I was getting a puppy he said, 'a dog's a great social ice-breaker'...everything has to be useful to be valued.
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Responding to Stormchild's comment that she thinks many men actually hate women. I am starting to wonder this too. Because my family is heavily male dominated as is my occupation and office, I often hear men, you would think would know better, talking about women as bitches, etc.
Sometimes it is guys you would least expect. Is this some kind of make bonding ritual I missed? I also see them occcassionally talk very dismissive to their wives. It has made me wonder if the majority of men deep down inside hate women and why? Maybe this is an age old question. Of course they may think deep down I hate men, which I dont think I do. I am often disappointed by thier behavior, though.
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First, d's mom, thanks for the link. Quite a bit to digest, but as an overall essay, that is the best piece I have ever seen. Thanks!
the latest n-man in my life treated everything like this- even when I told him I was getting a puppy he said, 'a dog's a great social ice-breaker'...everything has to be useful to be valued.
I so agree, this is a good observation. Sure, many of us would think or say something like this once in a while, but with a N, it's ALL ABOUT using and appearances and how they can use something to make themselves look good. It's never about pure feelings. Even in the essay from that url it stated that these people have absolutely no altruism. Funny, but my exN referred to the OW (now his wife) as doing something that had to do with a "charity" BARF. She belongs to a NON-PROFIT organization that has a cultural benefit, but it is NOT a CHARITY!! No one needy is getting any benefit from what this organization does!! BUT to my exN, he refers to it as a charity. Inflated, distorted, self-important. uggghhhh. Man, when he said this, I had all I could do .... (bleeding heart here, mind you .... wink!)
Over the time my exN was in therapy, I often wondered why the heck he went when it seemed to make absolutely no difference. I thought he went out of "habit" , part of a routine, and strangely enough, to have one "over on me" like he held it over me that he went some place to talk to someone about his problems that he could not talk about with me. I can't explain the feeling, but it made me very uncomfortable, like I said, like he was "using" therapy as a means to another end. As the essay points out, everything is a means to an end for a N.
Insofar as men hating women ... I think many men have contempt for women. I think they are socially conditioned, to this day, to feel superior to women and since we are stronger and more self sufficient than ever, many men do not know how to put that into context. So you really have to put "wiring" (as Brigid said in an earlier post) into account because it simply cannot be entirely social conditioning.
Have a good Saturday, hopefully a peaceful one.
New Day
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Anna,
Thank you for that link. I think I need to go back and read it again, as last night I read it after a couple of glasses of wine and probably missed some salient points. :? But I could certainly see my H in almost every one of the descriptors.
Brigid
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Hey Bliz,
Responding to Stormchild's comment that she thinks many men actually hate women. I am starting to wonder this too.
When I said all men are jerks, you seemed shocked or at least dismissive.
It seems you're coming around to my way of thinking. :wink:
I was being hyperbolic. Not all men are jerks. But I believe a large majority are.
And part of that 'jerkness' comes out as contempt for women. This contempt is magnified and reinforced in groups. Like Stormy's boyfriend, who was sweet alone, but was pulled away by a pack of feral men and turned into one of them.
Let me translate this phrase, "women; you can't live with 'em, you can't live without 'em"
Many women think that means that men think women are very different than they are and sometimes its hard for men to understand women even though they actually love them terribly.
What it actually means is, at its very essence is "women; why can't they just give us sex, and then go away while we scratch our bellies and run them down, until we want sex again?"
Most men are selfish slime balls who deep down have contempt for everything including themselves. They don't just hate women, they hate everything. You guys notice the hate towards women cause its directed at you. In addition most men are fairly infantile, but then I guess you knew that already.
Maybe its related to a fear of death? Don't know, I'm not one of the haters, thanks to God.
I'll leave it to you guys to disclose the ratio of women who are hateful users. It appears on the surface to be lower than in men. But I'm not in the club and don't know the secret handshake to get all the details. :? :roll:
mudpup
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I'm going out on a limb here: Men don't hate women. Some men are fearful, terrified, and ambivalent about women. And they have behavior problems. An equal number of women have the same negative feelings about men! My philosophy is to avoid the tape of "men hate women" because it's not helpful or even realistic. If the men in my life hate women, then I look at my own issues with submission, tolerating bad behavior, putting up with crap, and paradoxically, how I get along with other women? I found that I had even worse problems in that area. It's not just about men. Sometimes it's about autonomy and confidence with both sexes. But it's easier to blame the opposite sex. When I looked realistically/honestly at the men I encountered on a daily basis, most of them are perfectly respectful and nice to women! We tend to take these men for granted and put all the focus on the bad apples. Okay, stepping off the soapbox...
bunny
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based on the things I overheard from pals who talked freely in front of me, an awful lot of men - not all of them, mind you, but a lot -
really dislike women, waaay down deep.
So. If the one they end up with is the kind of screaming nutbar I had to growl at in the office, doesn't this just confirm them in that dislike? and give them something to p*ss & moan about to their pals at Unhappy Hour? And.... help them justify cheating, etc.?
Believe me, I saw quite a bit of that mindset before I was even 30.
Men who like women, and are comfortable talking with them as people, and can actually discuss both the thoughts and the feelings happening under their own skins without doubting themselves in some basic way, are sadly somewhat rare compared to these other fellows.
I think we're incredibly lucky to have two of you on board, mud & long. And I know we are grateful as all getout.
Hi guys, I didn't ever use the word "hate", and what I did say was a lot more complex than that. I thought I'd just put it here again as kind of a reality check.
I don't hate men, either; and I have just as much astonished contempt for women who run in packs and slander their "good providers" behind their backs, too.
Which I guess makes me an Equal Opportunity Scorner, anyway :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Sorry guys, I tended toward a little hyperbole here with the hate stuff...............bbbbbutttttttt.........
I have sat in many a group of men with no women around and I don't think most women realize the disrespect many men hold for women. Like Bliz said, men you wouldn't expect it from. Or how many may not hate women, but would cheat on their wives if they could get away with it and/or who ridicule them. Sometimes its said with a smile sometimes not.
They don't talk like that with women around. So I guess the question is, When are they telling the truth?
That being said, I have known a lot of men (maybe not most) who 'hate' women however you want to define it. It is not a murderous type of hate, but still a real loathing of women. Most of them have been through at least one divorce or bad breakups and most had a lot of anger, and they direct it from the ones who damaged them to women in general.
I think there's more than you guys realize.
Hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. :?
mudpup
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I have sat in many a group of men with no women around and I don't think most women realize the disrespect many men hold for women. Like Bliz said, men you wouldn't expect it from. Or how many may not hate women, but would cheat on their wives if they could get away with it and/or who ridicule them. Sometimes its said with a smile sometimes not.
They don't talk like that with women around. So I guess the question is, When are they telling the truth?
Where are these people? [Not at church, I hope.] I agree that some men who've had bad divorces, etc., blame all women and are woman-haters. But I think they were that way BEFORE the divorce. It was probably one of the reasons their marriage went south. I think anyone who blames their spouse for all sorts of crap, then extends it to the entire gender, is far too bitter. I reiterate that most men are not like this. Most men are good people. That's been my experience once I became open to male energy and saw what men are all about. P.S. When I do meet a woman hater, their vibe is very obvious. Maybe some women are in denial about it, conditioned to it, or something.
bunny
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I think it's likely that many people, whether male or female, simply aren't capable of relating to others as equals. They have to be 'one up' all the time, which means whoever they're with always has to be 'one down'. If they don't deliberately select someone 'inferior', they denigrate and belittle and abuse them to cut them down.
Doesn't matter where. At work, at home. With 'friends', with family.
This would result in the kind of destructive attitude that I'm talking about.
Very sad, to see either a man or a woman whose primary attitude towards their supposed life partner is purely and simply contempt, who expresses this contempt behind their "loved one's" back to members of the same sex, thus being permanently treacherous to the one person they are supposed to be closest to... and who won't lift a finger to address any of the problems this attitude cannot help but cause.
Sadder still, to watch a kid become corrupted by it.
I watched some of my male friends turn from really sweet guys into knuckle-dragging Neanderthal toads, between seventh and tenth grade. And some of my female friends turned from beautiful little girls into venomous gold-digging b**ches who basically dated boys purely and simply to get things from them (jewelry, meals, evenings out). It was like a nightmare, except that I was awake.
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Mudbrother,
Let me translate this phrase, "women; you can't live with 'em, you can't live without 'em"
Many women think that means that men think women are very different than they are and sometimes its hard for men to understand women even though they actually love them terribly.
What it actually means is, at its very essence is "women; why can't they just give us sex, and then go away while we scratch our bellies and run them down, until we want sex again?"
If this is true, I may as well head to my attic and lock myself in for the duration, because I don't have much to look forward to. :shock:
Obviously, I am not around when men are talking amongst themselves, but I shudder to think they are so shallow as to only have sex and their disdain of women to discuss. What about their golf shots, Monday night football, and the hot new chick in accounting (oh yea, that goes back to sex. :roll: ). And, of course, there are the latest jokes they've heard.
Not to change the subject, but am I the only one who has ever noticed that men score points with other men when the have a good joke to share and women score points with other women when they have a good recipe to share? A generalization, but mostly true I think.
Sorry, I digressed. I think there are opposite sex haters on both sides, stemming from that individual's relationships with mom/dad and dating relationships and/or marriage. IMO, women talk just as much (if not more) about sex than men do. Oftentimes, it is about how much they don't enjoy it (never my problem) and are trying to avoid it than when they can get some, but it is discussed nonetheless.
I think a good way to judge a man is how he treats and interacts with his mother. That's harder at my age as many of their mothers have passed away, but you can also look at sisters, wives of friends, etc. We can't control how people behave when not in our presence, but I think good therapy has given me much more insight into personalities and the ability to judge them.
I have faith that most men are not jerks, but just look at things differently than we ladies do.
Brigid
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Most of them have been through at least one divorce or bad breakups and most had a lot of anger, and they direct it from the ones who damaged them to women in general.
Mudpup! What level of intelligence do these anecdotal guys have. Hopefully it is above room temperature. Sorry, I am admittedly being sarcastic. But, clearly, they have not thought this one through and I'll have to take your word for it that they exist. Because of the direction my career took me, I was almost always the only "girl". I had great problems with men and great friendships with men. I think the kind of men you are talking about are safely sequestered in the corner of a cheap bar. I would like to think they are in the minority. I just don't think it is that simple. Or maybe I just don't want to believe it? I can't believe this kind of neanderthal thinking still exists. Tell me it ain't so!!!! And for the flip side....my mother hated women! Maybe the common denominator is they just love themselves so much. Bittles (and, yes. I have not had a good day today so am a bit prickly)
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I think a good way to judge a man is how he treats and interacts with his mother.
I thought I would step in on this one :) That applies except in cases when the mother is a narcissist.
Most people wouldn't be able to spot the dynamic - so if your mother is a narcissist where does that leave you?
Most would leave you alone, as having no relationship with your mother, for acceptable reasons as we all know - would set a normal persons alarm bells ringing
For me, with extreme issues of trust based around mother, I had to find someone who would understand.
When my mother first got my partner with her alone she attempted to get my partner to become her confidant. ie so that my partner would create a bond with her (my n mother) over and above the bond that we shared as partners.
She had always done this, but expressing it to my partner beforehand, it seemed like I was paranoid and abnormal.....which is why it is so hard to express these kinds of things in the first place. most don't get it.
Fortunately my partner saw what my mother was trying to do and told me about what she said etc (all expected from me but still hurtful)
that was one of the things that helped me give my trust to my partner completely and also give me the strength to confront my mother.
the confrontation went all wrong , as I was successfully goaded into losing my temper (so she could say how bad i was to everyone without lying (in her eyes) she could give an accurate 'slant' to what happened and be belived. she never mentions the part of her goading me to anger in the re-telling of the tale.
But - She's out of my life, and that's a situation that will not change.
Her choice - cut people out by punishment for speaking up - (what a way to teach children- i have younger siblings who obvioulsy know say anything that is on your mind that mother doesn't like and she will cut you out)
so her choice in the first instance, but now the choice is mine.
she had her chance and she blew it. she just didn't know that it was her last one.
oops. rambled on a bit :) sorry if I hijacked just wanted to share my thoughts on Brigid's comment.
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Do most men deep down inside hate, (or at least severely dislike) women? Didnt realize what a can of worms this would become. I am only basing it on my experiecne as a) only female sibling, b) woman in a male dominated field, c) involved as only woman on a community board.
I heard that before I did the community thing it was quite popular to tell horribly dirty jokes behind closed doors. THe guy that supposedly used to tell them has alwasy hated my intrusion and I was told called me a c--t and other locker room things behind my back.
You know the family story. Men always kowtowed to and favored yet still they speak and act derisively and disrepectfully towards women.
Personally I think it is the fear of losing control. Men know how important we are to their health and well being and hate that hold over them. Unfortuantley that doesnt work with brothers and I have never been very good at using my feminine wiles.
I think it is a reason why I find it so hard to find good male companionship. My health standards are high so that rules out alot of partiers and burners. There has to be some brain in there which rules out some more and then there is the spark and the "non typical" type male I prefer. I have actually built a pretty full life without a male companion but it would sure make the journey more fun.
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Harumph,
Quote:
I think a good way to judge a man is how he treats and interacts with his mother.
I thought I would step in on this one Smile That applies except in cases when the mother is a narcissist.
Most people wouldn't be able to spot the dynamic - so if your mother is a narcissist where does that leave you?
I guess I should have qualified this with "assuming they are both healthy individuals." Maybe a better determining quality at my age would be how they treat and interact with their children (as I choose to date only men with children).
Thanks for pointing that out.
Brigid
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Hi all! I don't know if most men dislike women (I hope not!), but I do believe that the vast majority of men believe themselves to be superior to women. I have known very nice, sweet and friendly men who honestly believed that men are more logical than women! And these are men that would see it as a given to help with housework/change nappies etc. They "had heard" this and immediately assumed that it was fact, rather than checking if there was logic or any factual support behind this statement. (very logical and rational :wink: ) The good news is that with my logical powers I have managed to make them see that this is not so. But it was reeaaally scary though...people who I thought were my friends somehow had this idea that I was not quite as smart as them... For no reason other than my sex.
But on the whole I think that there are plenty of good men out there, I have a lot of male friends who really respect women. Some men would like us to believe that all men are like them (bad), so that we won't go looking for another man. (Like the men who say that all men are unfaithful, just because they are.) This is of course incredibly insulting to the men who aren't like that, but Nmen often have this idea that "if I'm like this, then all other men must be too".
Having said that, a lot of women think they are superior to men, being more sensitive and more moral, when in fact idiots comes in all shapes, colours and sexes. My Nmother says that all men are horrible but she always takes a man's side, even against her daughters, and thinks that infidelity is a given with men, something every woman needs to put up with and not a reason to split up. :?
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Maybe it is more that many men feel superior to women. That has been particularly difficult for me since I did well in school and at least at one time was considered fairly smart.
It has been my experience that many men are then threatened by you and will find other ways to bring you down in certain siutaitons. Certainly true for my father and brothers and to some extrent other men I deal with in sutuations of power. Unfortunately even when I know the attaqcks are based on their insecurities it still is frustrating, annoying, at times shaming etc.
I posted on another thread awhile back that I felt it harmed my femininity as I thought I had to act more masculine in these circumstances. I have learned that is not true but still a struggle. What was the women's liberation movement really all about if we never actually made strides to be more equal. I wonder about this. I think the inequality went mroe "underground". Comments?
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I'll try and refine what I said about men tomorrow. Haven't got time today.
Brigid its not as bad as you think. :wink:
I didn't have time to read all the posts but i can say it was Bliz who started it. :P :wink: :P
Just kidding Bliz.
And bunny, you'd be surprised how many are at church. :oops:
mud
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Hey, I dont mind starting it.
So many of the discussions I have had here with people has really gotten to the core of my own personal situation. Debating "woman as inferior species", "being feminine yet centered and powerful," "dealing with nars in the family and business in general", it has all been great for my self esteem to get these things out. It is so much easier to attempt a healthy solition knowing I am not alone. I have kudoes, only, for this board.
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This has been great, and I'm not being sarcastic. Everyone who is posting has been really honest and direct about what they think and what experiences have formed or influenced their opinions. We 're not in 100% agreement - we're doing something better than that - we are learning from each other, nonjudgmentally, affirmingly.
'Scuse me, just was scanning the thread and realized this, and it really put a lump in my throat.
Sleepyhead, thank God you're back, I was starting to get really worried about you, how are you doing?
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Sleepyhead, thank God you're back, I was starting to get really worried about you, how are you doing?
Hi, Stormy, not to worry. I thought I would take a break and just focus on being pregnant for a while. And since my fiance hasn't been working and several of our friends have made sure to visit before we go back home (in two weeks), and with organising the move, I've been kind of busy. It's a pain being away for this long though, because there is so much to catch up with when you come back :shock: ! Anyway, glad to know you're glad I'm back! It's good to be back and see that you're all still here.
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Hi everyone,
Just thought I'd jump back in.
I agree that a minority of men 'hate' women in the sense that word is usually used. I used a poor choice of words in my original post.
It is also a minority of men who, maybe don't rise to the level of hating, but just dislike women as a sex.
There is also a minority of men who don't really think of women as much more than an object rather than a person.
A very significant minority of men, maybe even a majority think women are inferior to men either emotionally or intellectually.
All these groups overlap and they all approach women, as a group, with an unhealthy attitude. Whether it comes under the title of disdain or varyng degrees of contempt is up to the eye of the beholder.
And the men who 'merely' think men are superior to women may not be as clearly contemptuous of women as the other groups but they are the group most likely to hide their disdain and the group most likely to be of the two faced variety; friendly and sweet around women and contemptuous behind their backs. They're also the largest subgroup.
I have no idea what the total percentage is of men with all or some of these attitudes, but I am certain it is a majority.
It certainly has been for the men I have known over the years.
The good news is, that leaves the rest of us (35-45%, who knows) that don't feel that way. I'm not claiming to be the lone, wunnerful, wunnerful man in existence. Thirty or forty% is still millions and millions of men.
And that still leaves room for me to be a jerk in any number of other ways. :P :roll:
To paraphrase Martin Luther King, People should be judged by the content of their character, not the soft, silky, Oil of Olay smoothness of their skin. :wink: In my experience that usually doesn't happen when a man meets a woman.
The church thing. In medium sized and larger churches it is a well known problem that many single men are there for the sole purpose of finding a 'good' woman. (Maybe even some of the married men. :shock: :x ) There are a lot of men who enjoy watching lap dancers and porn stars in their leisure time but there aren't a whole lot who want to marry one. :?
Single women also have a problem in church in that they are often seen (usually incorrectly) as a threat to the married women.
I'd guess that single women are harrassed in church about equally between men and women.
Churches are just made up of flawed people like any other instititution and at most churches probably a minority of the people in them are truly trying to live by Christ's standards. Sad but true.
As far as the men I described as having IQs in the room temperature range, that is entirely possible. But thats another can of worms altogether. :shock:
I have to confess it is a novel experience for me to be told by a group of women that men aren't as bad as I say they are. :? Usually its either "amen brother" or I start slinking down in my chair cause the war stories start flying back and forth and I'm afraid the natives might get a tad restless having one of the brethren in their midst.
At that point I usually slide out the back door and find a male friend to commiserate with, about how irrational and silly women are (as we scratch our bellies). :roll: :P :shock: Just a joshin'.
mudpup
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Or is it because men married to Ns suffer in silence or are too ashamed to talk about it?
I wish my father had talked about it and then I could have known it was not my fault...you know how kids always think when bad things happen in the family, it's their fault :( I'm glad you're talking about it! :D
My mum is N, and therefore my dad counts as one of the 'suffering in silence' types. Except he didn't. He complained to me and my brother when we were growing up, and used us for emotional support in a way that I now know is not appropriate, but at the time felt like being treated as an ally or equal to dad. From around 7 or so. Maybe younger. He let us stay up to watch horror films too, which gave me nightmares, but I didn't dare tell anyone I had nightmares, because that would have made me silly.
Dad taught me that mum is 'highly strung', by which he meant that she shows her emotions too easily. The message for me as a girl was to avoid emotional expression at all costs, or else I would end up insane like mum. I am not sure what my brother learned, but we both learned to despise female or feminine things, I think. Or perhaps just to despise our mum.
:(
At one point my mum was in hospital for something or other - her back I think it was. Ns make lousy patients, especially Nnurses (like mum) or doctors. I am not sure what exactly happened, but dad told me that at one point the doctors were very worried about my mum's behaviour, and wanted to assess her further. They asked dad if she was ever like that at home. He lied and said no, he had never seen that from her before, and that at home she was perfectly fine. So they let her come home, and no assessment was done. Dad was proud of that. Or at least, I think he thought he had done the right thing, but he was not really sure.
All of which means that in my opinion, people with N mothers sometimes marry Ns in turn, and although they are unhappy, and know somehow that something is not right, they never quite break out of the spell enough to find out what it is. Very sad really.
I do not know if my SIL is N or not. But she is not maternal, if you know what I mean by that. If the boys need comfort they go to my brother, not their mum. When they hurt themselves she laughs and says they won't do that again. I don't dislike her, but she is not attuned to the boys, if that makes any sense.
Relating to the other side of this thread, I believe that my dad does despise women, and regards them with anger and suspicion. He had a domineering (N?)mother, and then married my Nmum. Qualities which he would regard as acceptable and male, are those which you find in me. Qualities which are female, and not so acceptable in me, you find in my daughter, and I am very pleased to see them in her. But I am some kind of psuedo boy myself. Not masculine exactly, but kind of asexual in dress and behaviour.
I don't want to say any more about me, because it gets too personal, but the female side of me is to be tolerated but not nurtured. In my daughter, the whole of who she is is nurtured. Well, it is by me, anyway. But again, my dad makes fun of her makeup etc. The difference is, she does not wilt in the face of such comments, as I used to; she answers back, in a nice assertive way, and tells him he is talking nonsense.
I think a lot of men do fear women, and that fear turns into aggression of one kind or another. But there are also some lovely men out there, who do not.
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October,
I do not know if my SIL is N or not. But she is not maternal, if you know what I mean by that.
I very much know what you mean by that. My SIL (H's sister) is the same way. She has 2 teenage boys that have not been "normal" boys from the day they were born. She has always hovered over them and worried about them being injured, kidnapped, whatever, but in a cold, distant way. The younger one is 16 and acts like he is 10 and the older one is graduating from high school and very brooding. They both have very limited friends. For whatever reason (probably because my SIL won't let him), my BIL does not interfere with the raising of those boys. I would term her mothering as mechanical and devoid of true feelings and emotion (I guess that would make her just like her brother).
They will probably turn out in the category with the men who disdain women, and never have a true intimate, emotional attachment since they haven't been taught how to.
Brigid
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mudpup,
I'm kind of depressed that you are encountering all these bitter, angry, hardbitten people who deeply distrust the opposite sex. One of my woman friends used to express irrational hatred toward men. I finally told her that I didn't want to hear it anymore. Somehow she now likes men. Maybe it helped that I (and perhaps others) didn't cater to her crap but challenged it and refused to even listen to it. Some of these people have never been challenged and always received agreement and sympathy. That gives them even more reinforcement for their stupid views.
bunny
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For whatever reason (probably because my SIL won't let him), my BIL does not interfere with the raising of those boys. I would term her mothering as mechanical and devoid of true feelings and emotion (I guess that would make her just like her brother).
Brigid
My nephews are all very close to their dad (my brother) rather than their mum. They are all quite anxious too, and hate to spend time away from home, but that could be for lots of reasons (my daughter is the same, so maybe it is a family thing. :? )
The funny thing is, SIL is very detached from the mothering side. So much so that if I am in the house and something happens, I take over what I would regard as the mothering bit. The checking if they are ok, commiserating on bruises or cuts, spending time being with them, and acknowleging their pain/feelings/whatever else, and then wrapping up by playing and some positive comments on how well they are doing. If someone did this in my house with my daughter I often think I would be resentful in some way, but SIL doesn't even seem to notice, to be honest. :?
I do not think I am there enough to make much of a difference or an impact, but then again, a little love goes a long way so perhaps ... :?
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Hi bunny,
Try not to be depressed by it. I mean, just because those are the people I have run into doesn't mean it changes your world any. Maybe you are in a sweet spot where there aren't as many goof balls. :D
There is also the possibility that, given the malleability of human behavior, depending on its environment, that many of the men who say they believe in the inferiority of women may only be saying it because they think that is what they're supposed to say around a bunch of guys. Maybe the untrue part of their two facedness (new word?) is when they're around the other guys and they're being honest when they treat women with respect. Could very well be.
Peer pressure certainly doesn't stop at adolescence. And the peers who exert the most pressure in a group are often the biggest chumps with the strongest opinions, so maybe its better than I think. I hope so.
I admit to being a might cynical about human behavior. But I'm also an optimist. I'm not sure how to reconcile those two things but its fun trying. :roll:
Next time I hear one of these goofs I'll use your technique and tell him to clam up. Maybe it will open his eyes. Or close one of mine. :wink:
mudpup
PS. I couldn't quite grasp what you were saying about your friend.
Does she really like men now or do you think she just changed her tune because you disapproved but hasn't really changed her attitude?
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Next time I hear one of these goofs I'll use your technique and tell him to clam up.
You have my support! It's disrespectful to your wife, for one thing. even if he's not directly referring to her.
As to my friend, she was ambivalent about men. Part of her hated them and part of her liked them. She irritatingly focused on the negative side. I kept reminding her about the men we knew who were nice. I tried to give her permission to like men. Her attitude has changed. IMO when we see someone with a polarized attitude toward the opposite sex, it's more about ambivalence. Some men are unconsciously fearful of becoming weak, dependent, and trapped/suffocated by women; and some women are unconsciously fearful of being oppressed, subjugated, and aggressively attacked by men. On the flip side, men unconsciously long and yearn for tender attachments to women; and women unconsciously yearn and long for dependency and protection from men. But these vulnerabilities are too terrifying for a lot of people, so they defend against them by devaluing the opposite sex.
bunny
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bunny,
It's disrespectful to your wife, for one thing. even if he's not directly referring to her.
You're right, I never really thought about it that way before. Maybe I'll close one of his eyes. :wink:
IMO when we see someone with a polarized attitude toward the opposite sex, it's more about ambivalence.
I couldn't agree more. Except for the actual haters, almost all these guys who devalue women would be blubbering babies if their wife or GF left them. On the one hand they don't mind putting women down in general but at the same time they are often the most dependent and hopeless men without a woman around you could ever want to meet.
Maybe the dependence and need creates the desire to act superior?
mudpup
PS. How'd you get so darn smart? :D
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Maybe the dependence and need creates the desire to act superior?
Dependence and need evoke massive anxiety which is managed and controlled by the superiority. When you block a man from his usual devaluing of women, he will feel very anxious and try to devalue you instead. Just ignore it.
bunny