Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Portia on April 27, 2005, 10:08:23 AM
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Thank you GFN. Thought I’d start a thread and dump my stuff here.
Note to self: buy Stop Walking on eggshells.
Their personality is disordered and their trying to get it from us only makes them fat with more disorder?
Just had to grab this GFN, coz she’s become physically fat over the last few years.
How do you think she might react? What might come out of her mouth?
Depends on what I say. I could say: “I’d like you to acknowledge that my childhood was pretty grim. I’d like to see if you can remember any of my childhood.”
I’ll just get hurt. I guess I could regale her with tales of my childhood, but she won’t really listen. She’ll listen for the ‘blame’ alert and will interrupt me to tell me it wasn’t her fault. Or she’ll just listen, emotionless.
Which hurts more? Imagining/guessing? Not saying/playing?
I think I can have a good guess at what she’d say to anything. It wouldn’t help me. I just go into shock/anger/sadness again. I’m just sad. I’m hurt that she doesn’t know, doesn’t care. What’s the point in telling her my stuff? She won’t say sorry.
Does letting go mean the relationship you have, or the one you wish for?
We don’t have any relationship (do we?). Occasional correspondents? Shall I still send her birthday cards etc? If I stop, will she simply stop sending me anything? I guess that’s playing. Does it hurt me enough to stop it? Would it hurt my conscience more to hurt her, to hurt her, to hurt her – for her ego surely would take a hit. I think she’d be hurt. I keep her image somewhat inflated. Much less now than I used to. She knows and understands so little. I also feel sorry for her. I can’t seem to shake that, no matter what she does, no matter how shocked I am. Although she says she's happy.
What I wish for is some recognition that I am – what? A daughter I guess. And not a ling-change. On a simple level I’d like to be recognised, literally, I’d like her to be able to spot me in a line up of two, that would be nice. That would be nice, crumbs, scraps. Not good enough. Some part of me thinks she hates me and daren’t say it. I think she does heavily identify me with her mother, she says stuff which shows it (expects me to be shocked, disapproving). And in her most recent email, the defensive stuff, she was drawing herself in against what I guess was an attack (perceived or real?) from me. She knows I’m getting into this stuff (this stuff, here on the net) and was basically saying ‘I don’t want to know’.
What do I want? I want to exist. I do exist. Some days I think the world isn’t big enough for both of us, know what I mean? “And it ain’t me who’s gonna leave” (anyone remember the old Sparks song? Might be too obscure.) You think I should go and rage at her? It would be good for me? The guilt? Seriously.
edit
Sorry about your brain, P. It'll be ok. It's a good brain.
Thanks GFN but it feels pretty stupid most of the time (and then sometimes it thinks it knows the ‘truth’ and the truth is very dark). It went loopy last night, I looked at the board and had a ‘reality check’ attack. Didn’t believe external reality. Still don’t. I never tell the whole truth, who does? I suspend disbelief but it hangs there in the air, waiting to drop. I’m sorry but that’s the best I can do.
Thanks for reading. Suggestions, observations, cut-through-the-crap-comments, I love ‘em. Please don’t hesitate.
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Hi Portia,
Have you ever disconnected completely from your mom before?
You seem to have some hope that she will not behave the way she always has before. Or that if you just give her one more try she'll throw you a scrap.
I don't think she ever will.
Maybe the best thing for you in the long run is to try and not hope for that recognition from her ever at all. Maybe that hope, which will probably never be fulfilled, keeps you from trying the things which might get her out of your brain. Maybe that hope keeps you tied to an anchor that keeps you forever stuck in port.
I don't think raging at her would help you. It probably helps more to rage at her here than to her face. At least here you're talking to people who understand and can give you feedback and support. To her face you'll just get a perplexed blink and then have all the blame laid at your feet. and then you'll feel guilty and betrayed again.
I'm sorry such a rotten mother is in your head.
Which gives you less pain? Contact or no contact with her?
You also are a very thoughtful and analytical person. Maybe a little less thought and a little more instinct would help?
Some days I think the world isn’t big enough for both of us, know what I mean?
It isn't. Maybe it would help if you could make your own world without her in it.
My autistic cousin. Who seems a little more than autistic, he says Jesus talks to him and asks him for his help “he wants me to help him carry his cross”. That’s not autism alone is it? He takes himself off to the local facility, voluntarily. Diagnosis anyone?
Either he's delusional or very wise.
Prayers for you Portia and some,
(((((Portia)))))
mudpup
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Portia,
Your mother sounds deeply disturbed. I think she has very serious emotional problems. She is severely infantile and can't separate you from her from her mother from the autistic cousin from others she considers idiots (i.e., herself). She can't individuate between people. Her boundaries are problematic. She hates herself. She has murderous rage. Basically you will be lucky to have a reasonable conversation with her at all, based on the fact that she is barely functioning. :cry:
Couple of things about her that struck me...
She said 'someone' thought she'd get back together with your father. It was she who was fantasizing about that, or, at least not rejecting the idea. She put it out there for you, hoping you would accept her fantasy. This is the equivalent of a small child telling an adult about their pretending and hoping the adult will not shame them. If she says this again, I might say, "Oh, really?" with no further comment. This will make her feel understood. If she feels understood, she might be slightly nicer to you.
If she offers you a cigarette, I would take that as her way of sharing part of herself. It's the equivalent of a small child offering her toy to a grownup. I would lean toward taking the cigarette even if I didn't smoke it, as a goodwill gesture.
My strategy would be to consider her a small child and use a few tricks for that age level. It's very unfair that she is the child and you have to be the adult. This is why I'm so in favor of therapy. The therapist can act as surrogate parent while we process the rage, terror, loss, and grief of realizing our parent has always been the child. If you know what I mean.
{{{ P }}}
bunny
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Thank you Mud and Bunny, I'm glad I posted that (thanks GFN for the prompt). What you say, both of you, sounds wise to me. I need to consider your words because I want to ask questions, I think. I keep being shocked at how real this is. I didn't know any of this before I came here, bunny you know that. I haven't seen her face to face since I came here. It is a shock. And it hurts, the grief hurts. The rage is a lot less, honestly bunny, it is. It comes and goes so quickly. I was wondering about therapy. I want to get on with my life. I need to work soon. But I am afraid of people. I just find it shocking how unreal it's been. It looks like NPD to me, in her? Does that matter, a diagnosis? Yes because then I'll accept that those neural connections aren't there and can't ever function. I can accept that and that would make it easier for me. I do accept that, sort of. But it's still shocking. Thanks again, I'm away for today, you've both helped. And I know I need it, help, that's progress. Portia
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Hi Portia,
My feeling is that she may have more than one disorder. She sounds narcissistic and borderline. There may be other problems. A therapist could give more of an educated guess about it.
bunny
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Dear ((((((Portia))))): Sorry I've been away today until now.
Did you feel like you dropped a bomb after writing all of that? I feel like that after letting some of it out here. At first, it feels really weird but later, it feels like it helps. LIke there's slop in the pot. I hope it helps you too. To be heard. I hear your pain P. :(
Bought HGH so that might account for it?
I'm sorry I don't know what this is. Does her being fat embarass you? Reminds me of the big huge giant massive 2 foot square mosquito in my dream (from the dream thread) eh? She's blowing up. She's on your back too (and you can't swat there very easily). :D Where the heck's the fly swatter?? :shock:
Depends on what I say. I could say: “I’d like you to acknowledge that my childhood was pretty grim. I’d like to see if you can remember any of my childhood.”
I’ll just get hurt.
So, you've answered your own question then? No matter what you say....it won't compute and you'll only get more hurt. Why do that to yourself?
She told me around Christmas time that she can’t remember what I was like as a toddler.
Selective memory. They only remember what they want to remember or they make it up to fit what they wanted it to be, or want it to be. Tell me about it!! :evil:
I told her I’d sat and played with suicide when I was 14. She said “oh yes I’ve been there”. She literally doesn’t care and is not interested. She literally cannot empathise with anyone. I’ve watched, she sits and smiles and says nothing. And then talks about them behind their backs as if they’re dirt.
I'm sorry you felt so down and so alone that you played with this idea, P.
:( At such a young age. How awful that must have been for you! I'm so glad that you're still here. I really am!! I remember one of them called you "evil" sometimes. Imagine the idocity of that? Well....ofcourse you don't have to imagine that do you?
Reminds me of a "friend" who came to my house, sniffing for information, and when I wouldn't give it and mentioned how my mil would soon be coming over, asked: "Oh...and How's mil?" and I said: "She's doing ok. She's suffering too and through her suffering she's doing her best to support me and comfort me. What a sweet woman!" and my "friend" said: "Yes. Imagine if we were to lose all of our support systems at once?" and I looked at her and gave her the "evil eye" and said: "I don't have to imagine it at all".
These people don't have a clue. Their hearts are diseased. The emotions that should be there.....aren't. Or at the very least....they do not show or come out. Not in the eyes. Not in the words. Not in the tone. It's like they simply are....aliens. From some other place that just does not allow them to feel properly and they cannot give what does not live in them.
I'm so sorry that she is like that P but she is. She simply does not feel like a normal mother and cannot give what she doesn't have in her.
Then I asked, not believing her, “who said it?”. “Oh some idiot” she replied dismissively
Everyone are idiots but them. They're so flippin' smart! They can belittle so easily. They can call names without a smidgen of remorse. They are just so much better than everyone else. They have no respect for the person, for people. They only respect geniousness and want it so badly. But they just can't get it because they aren't perfect (like they try to pretend to be). They speak above everyone else. Speak down to everyone else, like they're soooo important. They are stupid, if you ask me. They don't see how ridiculous they make themselves look by using such cruel words and by insulting on a whim, without care, without conscience, without awareness, shamelessly. They are deeply terrified of looking stupid. The rest of us can make mistakes and laugh at ourselves. "Oh look! I've locked myself out of the house, out of the car, with the car running and the dogs inside! Poor dogs want to go for a ride and are looking at me like I'm an idiot!! What an idiot thing I've done!!" (I did this.....recently :oops: ). I can laugh. I can tell you about it and you can laugh. And I can enjoy your laughing at my silliness. I can enjoy laughing at my own idiocy. They would die......inside......a little, if we knew of their silly mistakes. They try so hard to hide what cannot be hidden. They're dumber than they think, if you ask me.
I’m just sad. I’m hurt that she doesn’t know, doesn’t care.
I'm sorry for all of your hurt P. :( It does hurt a lot to come to grips with this. It is a loss that you must grieve, I guess. I wish I could make it better. You can't change her. You know it. As unfair and wrong and painful and downright pathetic as it is....there's nothing that can be done to put a feeling/feelings in her that she doesn't have. The only thing I can tell you that might help is that it's not you. It's not your fault. It's not. It's nothing to do with you. It's all her. She's messed up and f'd up and shuffled up....like the broken pieces of a porcelan doll. You could have been a boy...you could have been twins....you could have been any mix of children and she would still be the same to/him/them. It's not you. It's not you she doesn't care about. It's everyone. She cares for no one and can love no one. How very, very sad. For you and for her. I'm so sorry P. I know it hurts in big, big ways.
So the only thing you can do to help you is to grieve it and then make a decision about your own attitude toward her. If you decide that she's just an associate/aquaintance/distant distant distant relative....and expect very little from her.......you won't be disappointed. If you keep wishing for her to express love and concern and interest and joy for your joys and sorrow for your sorrows etc.....it will just keep hurting when she doesn't express those things. Not much of a choice eh? I wish I could give you something better.
It all hurts. Does letting go mean it won’t hurt? How do you do that then?
It's not easy. A little at a time. There has to be a way to build a big, strong wall that she cannot penetrate. You use your mind a lot so what if you try to build it brick by brick? Or a nice stone wall (I love stone walls...they are like huge mosaics). I know this sounds a bit too simple and it is simply put, but it's the only way I know of how to do it. But it takes time and much persistence. It is possible to use the energy....the anger.....the pain...the thinking time to build something that surrounds and protects you. It has to be in place before opening an email or a card. It's a big plan ahead sceme that is your secret for you only to help keep you safe. My way of doing it is to pretend I'm the doctor or nurse....doing an assessment. Hummmmmm.....that's interesting. Oh really? I see. You really believe that? Is that right?" without letting any emotional stuff fog up the facts. Maybe I'm weird? Or maybe it might help you too to try something like that or something only you design?
We don’t have any relationship (do we?).
You do have a relationship. But it's not normal. You want to be her daughter but she doesn't know how to be a mother. If she were dead, you'd have to live without her right? And you would survive. And you could survive with her alive by thinking of her as something else, maybe?
Shall I still send her birthday cards etc? If I stop, will she simply stop sending me anything?
I used to send cards to my brother and phone him, which was long distance and cost a fair bit. Every single time, I'd cry afterwards. I call to ask if he got my card and he'd make some nasty remark. He was cruel and rude, every single time. Finally, I said to myself:
"Self......why are you doing this? You want your brother to be a brother but he's never going to be a brother so why are you giving him so many opportunities to be what he is.......just rotten and mean?"
And I stopped with the cards and the calls. I feel better. I have no relationship with my brother. I will never have one. I can't change that. He is the way he is. I am the way I am and trying only hurts. So why put myself through that? I've tried. I'm wasting my effort. I want to put my energy into things that work and help and are good and feel good and give me or other people benefit. Not waste them on him and his nastiness.
Only you can decide which will hurt less. Both things hurt. For me, one hurts less. Now I pray for him on his birthday and light a candle. I send him my good thoughts and I don't hear his nasty replies. Maybe I make him laugh? Maybe it doesn't matter. I feel better. I'm sure he doesn't miss me.
Would it hurt my conscience more to hurt her, to hurt her, to hurt her.
Are you asking if it is wrong to cut all ties with someone that is persistently (maybe not frequently) causing you emotional turmoil? Should you feel guilty for not wanting to hurt to your peak/limit? Is it wrong to stop all sparse, meaningless, communication with her?
She's beating you up P. With words and lack of feeling. She's kicking you in the heart. She battering your self....in tiny, subtle bits. If you want to end your "relationship" with her......because you need to to save your own sanity....do you really think there is something terribly wrong with that?
If she was punching you and throwing you down stairs you wouldn't question ending it, would you? Incidious abuse is still abuse. It's just slower and harder to nail in place. You're an adult now and you have take care of you. You need not beat yourself up for wanting to do that. It's a good thing.
I also feel sorry for her. I can’t seem to shake that, no matter what she does, no matter how shocked I am. Although she says she's happy.
You don't have to shake it do you? It's ok to feel sorry for someone who is so sick/diseased/broken. It's a good thing to do....feel sorry for those who are less fortunate than ourselves, isn't it? (and she's less fortunate than you because she's disorded). But that doesn't mean we stand and let them pound us to a pulp emotionally. If she had H.I.V you would feel bad for her but you wouldn't share her syringes. If she had flesh eating disease you wouldn't be touching her wounds but you'd still feel sorry for her. Keep your sympathy, it's good. But look after you.
Some part of me thinks she hates me and daren’t say it.
She doesn't hate you Portia she's sick. Something is not right in her head. She's very jealous though, is my best most strong bet!
Is it too much to expect? To expect to remember what your only child did at university?
It's too much to expect her to give you anything good. She won't. She is too jealous of you and of your not being deperate like her. Selective memory again. It protects her. She probably would have loved to be in your shoes but she knows they would have never fit. Still.....she longs for those shoes but won't even acknowledge that they exist. Twisted. Ill. It's all you can expect. I'm so sorry P. :(
Was I ever allowed to have a relationship with step-dad so that his death just might have affected me (ha ha!), even if the relationship was based on fear and control? Nope.
Jealous. Wouldn't dare share. He might get close to you. You might get close to him. She couldn't stand the idea. :twisted:
Well the emails have stopped again so that’s good. I don’t get upset if there’s nothing to get upset about.
Good. I'm glad. Maybe don't open the next one? Or wait until that wall is a solid structure and plan a response like: "Recieved email. Too busy to respond".
anyone remember the old Sparks song?
I remember the band but can't think of song titles or albums. That wasn't yesterday, you know! :roll:
And they laugh, a lot, clearly enjoying the joke. I don’t laugh. I’m embarrassed and I feel guilty and icky because she looks absolutely confused,
You don't have to attend these things if you don't want to. There's no law that says you must continue to experience these types of scenes or that you must put yourself in these gatherings simply because you have some biological tie. Anticipate and plan for this junk, if you do decide to go, and prepare something comforting for yourself......like staying on the other side of the room, talking to whoever you enjoy there, or walking away announcing, in a sweet high pitch: "I need the toiley now". :D (or would that be more embarrassing???)
How can I rage, how can I use my voice, with someone who can’t process what I say? I mean that. It would be so unfair.
Believe me when I tell you that it will probably do more harm than good.
Sorry about your brain, P. It'll be ok. It's a good brain.
Thanks GFN but it feels pretty stupid most of the time (and then sometimes it thinks it knows the ‘truth’ and the truth is very dark).
You know that's not true (about your brain). Stop beating yourself up for not understanding insanity. It can't be done. Not in this life.
Sending you light, P. Lot's and lot's of clear, warm, crisp light.
It went loopy last night, I looked at the board and had a ‘reality check’ attack.
I don't know what brought that on but I hope the loops aren't too tight. You can untie them by working at them bull-headedly, a little at a time.
(((((((Portia))))))
GFN
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(((((Portia)))))
I'm sorry. :( I know the unspeakable pain of being raised by a N Mother. The shame of not being loved by the very person who gave you life. I know. I know the heartache of wanting to see love in your Mother's face only to find a twisted, confusing, painful and scary reflection. The good news is that the reflection was never about you - it was only about her and her illness.
Portia, you are a loving soul; if there was anything you could do to help your Mother I know you would do it. The overwhelming grief rolls in when we realize there is nothing we can do and there is no hope for them in this life. I'm sorry you are facing this grief. Sometimes I can barely catch my breath. But, for me, complete detatchment is necessary. My M despises me too much for my heart to bear relationship. I tried to be a good daughter - but I can't make her well. I can't make her love me.
I pray you find your answer. I hope you have loving people in your life to support you. Therapy has been critical for me. I needed someone to continue reminding me that she is sick beyond repair and that I will survive and move on to a fulfilling life. Sometimes I needed my T to remind me of that every week because I was so afraid I was being unloving and unforgiving. Now I'm beginning to understand the absolute necessity of detatchment.
I've always enjoyed your posts. You have a big heart. Be careful with your heart - it needs you care and protection.
Chutzbagirl
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Hello all. What would I like to tell you today? Well, it feels as though things keep turning full circle in my head. Cycles and recycles.
My grief is real and physical. All I need to do to find grief is to see that picture of her sitting offering that cigarette, and overlay your description Bunny of the very small child offering to share her toy. It’s heart-breaking. Does this happen to you – when you’ve cried, you cry and cry and you have to make yourself stop because you know you’ll be physically sick? And you know from past experience that if you are sick, it really hurts to have the acid and tears burn your throat, leaving you exhausted. “Stop it, you’ll make yourself sick”. I’m sure that’s what some people say to children. Maybe the children need to be sick? (What’s so wrong with physical emotion, especially in children? It makes adults afraid I guess, afraid of their own floodgates opening. Bring it on I say.)
The grief is mixed up, for her and for me, I do it for both of us. And her mother. “I think my mother may have been (sexually) abused by her father” she told me over the phone, emotionless, like a weather report. I remember her mother. Ah, GFN, you remember my dream about raging at her and slapping her face, and I knew the slapping was going too far, even in a dream? She told me a while ago that edit That obviously made a big impression on me. In my dream my mother was so passive as I slapped her, accepting it, and that’s how she would be. Isn’t that sad, all round. Heart-breaks. In my dream I knew it was wrong. Because it’s always wrong to hit children.
too much personal stuff so edit, edit.....
The books tell you to imagine you are in the first home you remember. Be yourself as a toddler. Look for your primary caregiver. See her clearly etc etc. I did this, I do these things periodically, testing myself.
She is simply not there. I’ve searched for her in those early years. I clearly remember my grandmother’s face, looking at me with concern, some affection and fear (I’d knocked myself out accidentally and she was holding me when I came round). Later, my grandfather valued my mind and was a good teacher. Gran played with me. edit
Bunny she’s 2 and a half and she can pinpoint when it happened. A terrible shaming and rejection by her mother. A very clear picture related to me. Not only was she shamed and rejected, but it was in favour of her baby (at the breast) brother. It’s not my business but it’s a sick family. And it’s not my family, it really isn’t. Maybe it’s my ghost family. Or something.
Where was my father? Poor Dad. He is a slightly older child. Spoiled and constrained. Maybe 6 or so, maybe a teenager. By comparison, not too difficult. His rage comes out, in words, banging doors. Simple stuff, easy to deal with.
I know she hates herself and can’t differentiate between herself and other people. It’s the murderous rage that worries me because it’s so deeply buried, it’s so suppressed: I have not seen her angry, at least not adult angry! How angry does a toddler get?
I’ve put down a few firm boundaries over the last few years. “You can’t have that because it will take this much planning and I can’t do it.” “No, I can’t do that. If you want that, you’ll have to do this.” When she’s frustrated in these things, she turns away, “oh well”. And it’s over.
But I worry. I worry every day. I worry that she’ll come a cropper. I worry that the rage damn will break. I worry that she’ll be murdered. I worry that she’ll be shamed to such an extent that she flips, crosses the line.
The circles and cycles
I’ve spent my life believing that she needs me. When I was able to reason I told her that “I’m going to look after you when I grow up”. (“Imagine a child saying that!” she tells me, smiling.)
I ‘got it’ that I can only change me: she’ll never change. I raged and wept a lot. (I blamed her.)
I worked on the idea that I need to protect myself against her. (She was the enemy still, she will consume me if I don’t take care.)
I know she doesn’t need me, that was hard to admit. No-one needs me, that’s hard to admit. (I need me.)
I don’t blame her and I don’t blame me. Or anyone.
She won’t consume me, she doesn’t know how (a child’s attempts are sadly pathetic). I don’t need to protect my self against her, I control what I think and feel (within limits), I need to protect myself against myself. “Take care of your self”.
I am the adult, finally. This hurts. The responsibility I took throughout my life comes back and looks me straight in the eyes and says: with this comes real responsibility, the kind you choose to take, not that which is imposed upon you. This one is a choice and that is a struggle.
You choose! Do you want a relationship with this person or not?
Answer: yes. I cannot be what I am not. I am the result of how I got here, I can’t deny my history. If I do deny my history, I shall repeat the same actions.
I can’t control anyone but myself, but I can control myself! Within limits, self-regulating ones I guess. Isn’t ‘potential’ a lovely word? And possibilities.
GFN, the dark place isn’t insanity, it’s the terrible hopelessness that seems to go on and on. When humans seem adept at cruelty and unused to kindness, that’s when it goes dark. When I read Dorothy Rowe and Margaret Atwood and Fay Weldon, is it just me? – I sense an underlying bitterness. That bitterness is the dark - denial of grief? Cynicism. Somewhere in me is a bright spot of optimism that won’t be buried for long. When pessimism takes over, I can wait it out. I guess I waited out my childhood weekdays with the optimism of the weekend and grandparents?
I accept the responsibility that I choose to have a relationship with her. I choose to be the adult. I think that I can contribute to her feeling something good and if that’s so, I’d be cruel to withhold those things, having that knowledge. I get to feel ‘good about myself’ and I get to control myself, my reactions. I get to recognise when I’m losing it and can choose to withdraw. No-one is my enemy in this situation, only my own perceptions.
It doesn’t stop it being sad. Not when you can interpret this sentence from that email either as manipulative, inverse-arrogance or in many other negative ways, or you can see it as honesty coming from the mouth of a child: “Thing is sometimes it seems you've grown up and I haven't.”
Yes Chutzbagirl, it takes my breath away. Damn it! So much crying.
More follows, individual replies to you …
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Good morning Mud, Bunny, GFN, Chutzbagirl. Thank you.
Mudpup, have I disconnected before? We were never ‘close’ but I felt responsible for her from very young. Step-dad was my adversary. I probably wanted to marry mom when I grew up. Not healthy. I left them at 16, (left her in my mind, he drove me out, to me). I went to live with my Dad (Bunny, imagine what she made of that!). But always I would go back to her “like lovers” I once said to a boyfriend. I knew then, but I didn’t know, and after he looked at me pretty horrified, I think I decided it was best to keep that one hidden. Ha! Imagine. <shakes head>
But she was never connected to me. She doesn’t even throw me scraps. She has no idea of what she does or doesn’t do and the impact it has on others.
I won’t rage at her. I won’t relate to her as an adult at all from this day on. I woke up today and the mother in my head is a tiny child. (I want to repeat that sentence across a whole page to communicate the impact of the image.) It makes everything very simple. For example, I don’t want to marry a tiny child.
Contact or no contact, it’s all pain, it’s the mother in my head, not the real one (is it ever the real one, or the one we choose to construct?).
I like my cousin, he seems okay and I don’t know if he’s delusional or wise either. He certainly knows how to take care of himself. I think his Dad (mother’s brother) takes it very hard. He’s a very sad man.
Thanks for your prayers (((Mud)))
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Thank you Bunny,
I deal in images and your images cut through my thoughts like a hot knife through butter. No matter how many times I read “emotional child” it doesn’t work like a picture. Here’s your mother: look, see clearly. I appreciate your first paragraph. It matches what I ‘dare’ to think, what I can cope with. I don’t have reasonable conversations at all. I’m amazed that she still drives. I’m amazed she hasn’t been banned (she’s been stopped by the police a few times). But she still functions, she’s very resilient. She writes, attends women’s groups, finds friends to holiday with, has relationships of sorts etc.
Heck, I knew that about it being her fantasy to get back with my Dad, but to my mind, that was too crazy to voice. I forget that that is my perception, not hers (that the idea is too crazy is my perception…etc). My Dad has been married now for 24 years: that doesn’t affect her fantasy. I have other examples too, of this fantasy in her. (I told her Dad was on holiday somewhere, “who with?” she asked. Very sad on reflection. Very sad.) Thank you for saying it out loud bunny, it makes it all true.
As for what her problems are, they sure are many. I talk to two people about her, H when he doesn’t mind and tiny bits to my step-mother. (This is a trade-off, step-mother talks to me about Dad and she has to, I understand her situation too well and though it sounds dodgy in boundary senses, she’s pretty healthy.) <Shock, roll eyes, put that on hold.> Very recently I told step-mother “I think with just a nudge in one direction or another, she could well be {in need of in-patient care}.” Step-mother isn’t surprised by anything. I wondered about the accuracy of what I’d said afterwards, and decided it was accurate to me. It depends what I mean by “nudge”. I worry about her and the external real world. I wondered if her GP would talk to me. She’s been prescribed so many different things over the years, from the old valium type stuff to the new SSRIs. That practice must have a clue (I don’t expect much from doctors). If/when the need arises, I’ll find out I guess. It would be good to know now, both for me for myself, and for me for her in the future. I’d know what was likely/unlikely in terms of her behaviour. But that’s getting too close for me and it’s not necessary right now. As far as I know. But I’d like to be prepared. I have thought about this a lot, while I’ve been here. I can’t square it while she is still functioning, I can’t get involved. While she’s okay, it’s still only my stuff. My thinking is muddled here isn’t it? It seems so.
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Hiya GFN, that was a marathon post, thank you! It wasn’t really a bomb from me, just a clarification of thoughts that are probably spread all over the board, in bits. HGH = human growth hormone, that must give you the nibbles eh? Does it embarrass me? Not really, I’m not her, I think it sickens me because it’s an outward sign of inner turmoil and that’s not pretty.
We all have selective memories don’t we? But I don’t think she’s lying, she doesn’t lie well at all. She doesn’t remember me – and she says that hurts her, she feels bereft! I’m sure she does feel that and that’s sad.
I worked out that suicide wasn’t the answer to anything. And I knew it would be painful too (I chose pills). I don’t like physical pain. I zoned out instead. There’s always an alternative if the brain can locate it. If the brain can’t locate it, the body will die.
They're dumber than they think
- isn’t this the truth! It’s a good job, a mercy, they don’t know. It’s better to think you’re dumber than you are I find. :D :wink:
Thanks GFN, I know it’s not me. That hurts too of course! The arbitrary nature of birth, life and death. Sometimes that’s a good thing though.
I like stone walls too. It’s not my style though, mine is through understanding then feeling then understanding some more. I do have steel shutters though, in my head when it gets too much. Problem is, I relied on them too much to survive. Now to survive I have to feel and it’s working! Sadness is better than dissociating. It hurts, great!
I think it would be wrong to stop communication because it’s not meaningless to her. You’re right it is abuse but I’m the adult now. I can choose whether to take the abuse or not. And let’s face it her abuse is neglect, it’s not raging and being actively nasty. Her abuse is all by default. Step-dad did the dirty stuff. Does this sound like denial? I guess. But I don’t think it is. She’s potentially dangerous alright, no mistake. But she hardly contacts me and I honestly don’t think that it is intentional to ‘make me suffer’ – I think she's not aware that I exist in reality, without her. Seriously. If she *thinks* about me, she thinks that’s okay by me. I can understand that. Very young GFN, very.
Aye, she is jealous. And all the other stuff.
Sparks – This town ain’t big enough for the both of us (and it ain’t me who’s gonna leave!)
Family events: hey, it was the first one on 20-odd years, I didn’t know what to expect! I went to another one and that was it, I’ve stopped. No point.
About being loopy. I just have some trouble with patterns. Sometimes my expectations are so low that when people do stuff I don’t anticipate (that seems good to me) I simply don’t believe it. I think people behaving well is a conspiracy! Sort of. Put it this way, what is ‘normal’ often seems incredible to me and I have to adjust. It’s getting easier to recognise. Thanks GFN, sometimes you really hit the spot and you did this time.
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Chutzbagirl, maybe our hearts get bigger the more they have to accommodate, that’s why people have heavy hearts? You have a big heart too, thank you for your words.
We can’t make them love us, but we can choose to love them in the only way they can perceive and receive love. (And I really mean that. Amazing. I can't believe myself sometimes, maybe I'm on a posting-induced high? :D )
Just got to find the way maybe. If that means doing it from a distance, then that’s the way. Tenacious is my middle name! :D
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Portia,
You said your M doesn't lie very well. That's good. I guess N's, just like everyone else, come in different varieties and degrees of illness with potential to abuse.
This is where the whole detatchment thing gets sticky. My M has malice and slanders me something terrible. Therefore, any contact with her is damaging to me and potentially to my children. However, if she was just pathetically sick and needy, I would probably be able to have limited contact.
My M lies about most people, if not all, and has a special knack (sp?) for destroying relationships. She must be the center at all times and therefore she slanders daughters to their fathers, sisters to their brothers, etc...She doesn't just slander my appearance or choice of clothes, she slanders who I am and what is most dear to me; my faith, parenting, character, marriage, etc...
I know the hurt child behavior N's tend to display. I've seen my M look so young and fragile it can turn my stomach with sadness and disgust. My M is incredibly dramatic and is constantly in physical pain of some type. She's had too many surgeries to count. That gets old quick. I can not believe that she finds doctors who believe her. They are either naive or unethical.
So, I think the bottom line is we need to assess the N's impact on our own sanity. After all, we are responsible for our sanity. If I continued to be in contact with my N relatives I would be victimizing myself because under the circumstances I am unable to remain sane.
I wish you the best as you ponder your course. All of our circumstances are unique. I think it is extremely important to respect the decisions of others.
Take care Portia. :)
Chutzbagirl
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Hi again Portia,
I'm surely glad you started this thread for yourself. I hope it is helping to, well, to put it politely, empty your tummy. And maybe your head too, a little?
You have some really complex emotions going on here. Way too complex for my pea sized brain to wrap around. :?
My advice usually consists of the old gag about the doctor and the patient.
Patient "Doctor it hurts when I do this"
Doctor "Well don't do that"
Helpful maybe for a broken pinky, but maybe not so much for a broken childhood?
But I do know it helps to throw it up and pick through what you find. It can be fairly disgusting but at least you find out what you were forced to swallow.
GFN,
You are so wise and we have so much in common. Well, not the wise part but other stuff. The brother you have lost. Jed Clampett, the McKenzie brothers and a whole bunch of other stuff, not least a love of bulldozers. :wink:
There is one other person here who I have so much in common with as well. I have a lot of sweet sisters here, but I feel like I might have grown up with you two.
Sorry for the loss of your brother. :(
(((((P))))) (((((GFN)))))
mudpuppy
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(((Chutzbagirl))) this has been confusing me so much, how she's not so upfront and nasty with it. The vast majority are it seems, I'm in a minority, or it feels like it.
If I had your mother, I'd run for the hills and not look back. There appears to be nothing but cruelty and harm, absolutely no reason for you to relate at all. I can see that. I've seen it so much. Which is why I've been confused, mine doesn't fit that description and it's made it so difficult. Like fighting cotton wool, how do you get a hold on 'nothing'?
I had an N partner for a while, I know the mean spirits, the fantastically selfish manipulative little child looks (suddenly I'm not so forgiving eh :twisted: ?). Stay away - and I know that partners aren't mothers: mothers cling on to our hearts.
We protect ourselves first, otherwise we're no use to anyone. Take care Chutzbagirl, I agree with you.
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Hi Portia,
Thanks so much for posting your thread. The whole N Mother issue has been huge for me too.
After reading your last post this thought came to mind...Continuing relationship with a N Mom, even if the degree of explicit abuse is minimal, is still difficult because we never stop wanting a Mom. I thought the healthier I became the less her behavior would hurt me - it would just roll off me like water off a duck. Wrong - the more healing I received the more her behavior hurt me because I was beginning to be in touch with my heart and emotions. So, the effect of recovery was totally different from what I expected.
My M wasn't always mean, but even when my M would give me a gift or act nice, it didn't feel 'nice'. There was almost always a slice of pain I would feel. Of course, until recently I thought it was me. Somehow she had the 'magical' ability to make me out to be the bad guy. I don't know how she does/did that. It's rather baffling. :?
I trust that as we move along this path of healing the steps we need to take are revealed to us. Some people look at me and become afraid that they will have to completely detach as well. I try to assure them that their situation is different and the outcome of their healing may be very different than mine.
I hope that as you sift through your memories and experiences and assess your current reactions to her behavior the actions you need to take will become clear. There are degrees of personality disorders. I know a woman who has a schizophenic M. Her M desired to maintain sanity for the sake of her children so much that she battled her illness with all her might. She was a difficult M, no doubt, but her M was able to 'see' her children; they were not just a reflection of her.
Take care.
Chutzbagirl
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Chutzba & Portia,
So, I think the bottom line is we need to assess the N's impact on our own sanity. After all, we are responsible for our sanity. If I continued to be in contact with my N relatives I would be victimizing myself because under the circumstances I am unable to remain sane.
This was the line of defense I had to take with my N father. For most of my life, I bit my tongue and just dealt with his constant barrage of criticism, complaints, pissing and moaning about everything. I finally could not allow my children to be subjected to it anymore and I pulled the plug on the relationship.
He never did anything to try to make amends and my mother continued to live in the world of denial that there was anything wrong with his behavior. For so long I blamed myself for not being able to get along with him and the extended family couldn't understand my separation from him and made me out to be the bad guy. Of course, none of them had had anything but cursory contact with him for over 50 years, but children cutting off contact with their parents just wasn't allowed.
Portia, you will need to handle your situation the way that works best for you. I'm sure you see your mother as a pitiful creature who needs your attention in whatever form that may take. You seem to be coming to terms with the fact that she can't return that attention or caring, however much you might wish that were different. I will keep you in my prayers that you can find the strength to take of both her and yourself.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Checking back after some scrummy pasta and rather tasty Australian shiraz mmm! 8)
I want to reassure anyone reading that hey, I’m not about to act on my thoughts. I’m going to carry on processing this little lot for some time. This has been something of a huge breakthrough and needs careful consideration.
I am in a minority here. Most of what I read here is about cruel, intentional abuse. The perpetrators are adults who know what they’re doing, they can reason, if in their own warped way. I’ve been fighting this confusion about my mother all the time I’ve been here, although I’ve raged about her. I knew something wasn’t right and I always knew it. It really has been like raging about a child: something didn’t make sense. Of course it’s mixed up with who’s the ‘real’ perp anyway, and my step-father had a lot to answer for. But in a cruel way he shielded me from her – pick your own word…. ‘unreality’ does it for me for now. When he died in 2000, that’s when I started to ‘see’ her.
Thank you Mudpup again, Chutzbagirl, Brigid thanks for your prayers too. I’m keeping my sanity in check, promise :D
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Hi all:
Portia, about the HGH (which I thought was some brit term----dee dum dee doo doo dum dum :oops: ): It is definately be a nibble increaser because it influences the metabolism of proteins, carbohydrates, and lipids. It's having a physical effect. Maybe her overeating is a sign of inner turmoil too? If this is a first....then it's probably the hormone.
We all have selective memories don’t we?
We do but we don't usually forget entire major life events completely, such as the toddlerhood of our only child or children. Maybe we forget at what age who did what, who painted the piano bench with margerine, or who peed down the heat register (can't remember which kid did what...wait a minute...yes I can), but we can still see those sweet faces and chubby legs tearing across grass in yellow sun dresses, or denim shorts and Mr. T- t-shirts, and feel our heart strings play. That much selection is not usual/normal/sane....to forget an entire developmental stage of our child. It's weird and abnormal, imo.
She doesn’t remember me – and she says that hurts her, she feels bereft! I’m sure she does feel that and that’s sad.
For a 2 1/2 year old, that's pretty adult eh? (feeling deprived of such normal/natural/usually pleasant memory--I mean). Maybe it's not so sad because at least she misses it (the memory of that period). She wants to remember but those segments/bytes are blocked/dead space/gone? Or, she reads you like a book and says this because she knows it will have an effect on you? I don't know her so I am guessing.
I zoned out instead. There’s always an alternative if the brain can locate it. If the brain can’t locate it, the body will die.
I'm glad you zoned back in again. The brain is amazing isn't it? Such power over everything else in the machine. And even as it is.....just another muscle......with electrical charges and chemical reactions and stuff.....there is not much known about how it really works. There is theory and conjecture but not much fact.
I love the old horror movies we used to watch as kids......eg. Dr. Frankenstein and his jars with brains floating in formaldehyde, on the shelves of his laboratory. None of them quite what he wanted for his masterpiece! And all of them dead. He had to send Igor to get a fresh one...."Get a good fresh one", he told Igor, (as if Igor could tell one from another?).
Who knows if it's selective memory or true memory loss, in your mother's case. Dr. Frankenstein probably would have loved to get her brain to examine and disect. But because of the memory loss...had he known of it, he probably would have still sent Igor out to hunt for "another good fresh one".
It’s better to think you’re dumber than you are I find. :D :D
Yes. Or in my case.....prove it. :shock: :oops: :roll:
I like stone walls too.
I think Bunny has given you a good stone to put in your wall. That is the thought that your mother is just a child, in an adult's body. If you can think this thought first....before all else....it will help you to go in a different direction of thought and feeling. I don't mean to suggest denying feelings, or not trying to understand.....when I say to build a wall. I mean rather find ways to direct your thinking that are stronger and better for you, to keep you safe from unnecessary pain. If she says something and you think: "She's just a child", your feeling after that might be more sympathetic toward her and cause less personal injury to you. If you think: "Ouch that hurts", you're going to feel sad, maybe angry immediately and possibly think things like: "Why? What do I do to make her want to hurt me?", or "Why can't she just be kind to me for a change?".
I'm not saying become a cold stone wall. I'm saying become a warrior with a weapon, used only to protect the palace. And that palace is you, Portia. 8)
I think it would be wrong to stop communication because it’s not meaningless to her. You’re right it is abuse but I’m the adult now. I can choose whether to take the abuse or not. And let’s face it her abuse is neglect, it’s not raging and being actively nasty. Her abuse is all by default. Step-dad did the dirty stuff. Does this sound like denial?
It sounds like you've made a decision...one you can live with. It sounds like you are not denying that neglect is abuse. Or that he abused you. The only thing you are denying is that her needs are more important than yours. Whatever obligations you are feeling.....are not to yourself, they're to her. The communications mean something to her and you don't want to take that away from her, even if it means those communications hurt you.
That's ok. As long as you're aware of it and can find ways to protect yourself, until things change (she is admitted or passes). Maybe it's not denial, come to think of it, anyway? If you do what you feel obligated to do now, you will not feel guilty for not doing it, later, when you look back. So really, it's another way of taking care of you. Am I confusing or what?? :? :roll:
Thanks GFN, sometimes you really hit the spot and you did this time.
You're very welcome, P. I'm not sure which spots hit what but as long as I didn't put you to sleep or scare you to death, I'm glad. :roll:
Mudpup wrote:
GFN,
You are so wise and we have so much in common. Well, not the wise part but other stuff.
I disagree. I'm wiser than I was yesterday, but not as wise as I might be tomorrow. Same with you Muddybrother. Thanks for saying that nice thing. You're a wise guy too. :D
I feel like I might have grown up with you two.
Sorry for the loss of your brother.
Thanks Mud. I so appreciate how warm and kind of you that is to say. We do have a lot of stuff in common, which makes the world small, doesn't it? You are definately my brother and we are growing up together, now. And it's more than cyber land....it's in prayers and white light and good vibes and pleasant visualizations (like the lovely ones Stormy was having at lunch today--see "Anything" thread---which I scanned but didn't post to yet). If we never meet in this life, we surely will in the next. I'm looking very forward to it!
Muddy, I'm so sorry for the loss of your brother too (and your other siblings who are not standing up with you and are being influenced by him). Believe me when I tell you that I can relate.
These losses are like a divorce, or a death, except there aren't many, in the real world, who understand. There's no funeral with people offering comfort. There's no support group (that I know of) with information to offer and others to share with. These losses of loved ones due to ..what was it?.....the N system....are still great losses that leave painful, confusing, raw wounds, that need care and attention. :(
Thankyou for all of the comfort you offer, Mud. And for your support and the information you have brought here. Thankyou for sharing.
I'm priviledged to know you. :D
GFN
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GFN,
You're a wise guy too.
Yes, I know. Its a bad habit.
And it's more than cyber land....it's in prayers and white light and good vibes and pleasant visualizations (like the lovely ones Stormy was having at lunch today--see "Anything" thread---which I scanned but didn't post to yet). If we never meet in this life, we surely will in the next. I'm looking very forward to it!
I'm looking forward to it also, and I also feel that it is more than just anonymous electron connections. It is more than that.
I also wanted to thank Stormy for that lunch she had with us. She didn't give us a chance to pick up any of the tab. :?
Its funny you should mention her as she is the other gal here I could have grown up with. :D
These losses are like a divorce, or a death, except there aren't many, in the real world, who understand.
That's what I am coming to terms with especially regarding the rest of my family, not my brother. I think thats why I'm here, because I found loving people who believe the truth and understand what its like with an N.
A cyber hug is not as good as a real one but it is infinitely better than no hug at all. Actually you know a cyber hug is sometimes just as good as a real one, isn't it? Maybe better, if the real one is from some smelly guy. :( :P
I'm priviledged to know you.
:oops: :oops: :oops:
Likewise, my dear.
mudpup
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PS Mud: Just looked back here after posting at "Anything" thread and I swear I did not swipe your idea about picking up the tab for Stormy's lunch (which I expressed as: "My treat"). Not that you would accuse me of such a swindle. It just came to mind that I posted your thought, now that I'm looking back here and seeing this:
I also feel that it is more than just anonymous electron connections. It is more than that.
I bet you're right! :D
(although some of my electrons need a boost!! :shock: :D ).
Ok.....Back to you P and other's with mothers in their head.
GFN
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GFN,
I swear I did not swipe your idea about picking up the tab for Stormy's lunch (which I expressed as: "My treat"). Not that you would accuse me of such a swindle. It just came to mind that I posted your thought, now that I'm looking back here and seeing this:
Quote:
I also feel that it is more than just anonymous electron connections. It is more than that.
Of course you didn't swipe it. We just shared it somehow. 8)
Ok.....Back to you P and other's with mothers in their head.
Another thought we share. Good idea.
How are you P?
mudpup
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More from me P and I'm still on page one, I think :? , or two :? , or something: :roll:
Two issues. One that was mentioned before, more than once. Maybe a good shagging I mean nagging would help :D .
You still have this idea in your head that somehow you have not suffered as much as other people here.
I hear you saying that your pain is just not as valid as that of others who have been abused (differently).
I hear you saying that you haven't been through as much as others, that you have no right to complain, don't deserve to be upset.
I hear you saying that you are somehow not as worthy as the rest.
You're not denying that you've been abused by neglect. It just seems that it can't be as bad, to you, as other types of abuse.
Remember the frog in the cool water, gradually heating up, dying of scalding because he didn't realize the water was getting hot, because it was so gradual. Neglect is exactly like that, isn't it?
Portia. Your feelings of sadness and anger and disgust and confusion and unworthiness........are proof enough that you have been just as hurt, just as mistreated, just as abused......as many here. Your feelings are valid P.
So what if she didn't hurt you on purpose? It still hurts. It still is a major loss to feel that your mother doesn't love you. It's just as painful, maybe more....than a death. Like dangling candy over a baby, you have a mommy but you don't feel loved. Withholding love from a child is one of the most insidious, cruel, devistating things a person can do to a child. It doesn't matter that that love was withheld by default. It's good that you understand that it is sickness that caused it....but that doesn't make it hurt less.
You have just as much right to express your pain as anyone else who has pain. You're just as valuable P. You're just as worthy of empathy and understanding and love as any person here. You're worthy P. It doesn't matter that she didn't tie you up and beat you with a stick. She beat your heart with an invisible stick, which made you feel unclear as to why you hurt so much. You hurt because you have been abused by neglect/default. It's just as serious. It's just as upsetting. It's just harder to put your finger on.
And number 2......is about employment. I've heard you mention this before. You need to find employment, you've said. It makes me wonder:
Do you like whatever it is you're trained to do? Whatever you studied?
Or is it time for a change? Could you go back to school? Or is there something else you'd rather do? Something less stressful, perhaps? Something you would enjoy that is what you want?
This seems to bother you yet you seem stuck. Do you not feel emotionally ready to commit to employment? Or is it something else holding you back? Unsure of your abilities? Afraid of all the rejection one faces in seeking employment?
These aren't questions for you to answer to me. Just more stuff to sift through. I just keep thinking that working might actually be the best thing for you. It might give you something better to focus on. It might help you feel better about your life. I don't know. Maybe I'm cracked! :shock:
You're doing your best at a lot of things P. These are not criticisms. They are said with the love of a cyber-friend attached. Just stuff to mull over and see if anything is worth considering.
And what the heck is Australian shiraz? Boy....have I missed a lot!! :roll:
Page three now....
I’m going to carry on processing this little lot for some time. This has been something of a huge breakthrough and needs careful consideration.
Excellent Portia!!! Keep doing that!! Give yourself credit deserved!!
I am in a minority here.
No you're not. You're just somebody who's been hurt like the rest of us.
And your optimism, thoughtfulness, and kind heart will see you through.
GFN
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Portia, I just finished reading your thread. I can so relate to what you are saying. My parents were emotionally absent and neglectful. Though seemingly in a less "active" way than your mother. (Maybe they are just better at not being there?) It is hard to find a defining event or pivotal moment in neglect or absence to hang all of the hurt, disappointment, fear, sadness, anger, rage on. Nothing happened. THAT was the problem. Something was supposed to happen and it didn't. How do you know "when" it didn't happen if it didn't happen?
Your feelings are so relevant and valid. In some ways it would be easier to detach if there was more obvious abuse going on. Some people are abusive by witholding, though. That is a hard concept to get. I don't know if I would truly understand it if I didn't HAVE to. Why are you upset, nothing happened? THAT'S WHY I'M UPSET!
I continued this pattern in my life with my wife until fairly recently. Honestly, the thing that helped me most was just getting understanding and validation from others. In the past it was easier for me to see others' pain, than my own. Some good people turned around and pointed out that I was in pain too, because they could see my pain more clearly than their own.
Chutzbagirl, I agree that being aware and not numbing or zoning out makes the abuse feel MORE painful, not less. Now that I'm "awake" I can't imagine letting myself be treated that way by anyone ever again. I still struggle with the "how" to accomplish it, but I definitely know what I'm NOT willing to put up with.
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Longtire,
Some people are abusive by witholding, though. That is a hard concept to get.
I would have to agree with this. My parents never outwardly did anything that an outsider would term as "abuse", but they also weren't good parents.
That wasn't anything I could see growing up because I didn't know what good parents were suppose to do. You live with what you have and just accept it as the norm.
It wasn't until I had my own children and start seeing how innately I reacted to, felt about , couldn't imagine being without, I felt about them. I saw how most of my friends felt the same and how involved we all were with our children's lives. I understand that this is a different time and parents just are, for the most part, more involved with their children than when I was growing up, but there is a big difference between not coming to a school play and never telling your child you love them.
And I also don't buy the whole excuse that my father had a poor role model and he didn't know anything else. How was I able to be different? It is a choice one makes and the bottom line is that some people were never meant to be parents.
Brigid
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((((((((Portia))))))))
Oh, Portia, my heart breaks a little when I read what you've written. I agree with the others here that your pain is valid, not being "actively" abused does not mean that you were in any way less abused. I think that not loving us is the worst possible abuse we can suffer from our mothers. If she had hit me, but I had been able to feel that there was love there somewhere, I don't think it would hurt as much as knowing she never loved me and she never will. My mother does make nasty comments and treats me like a slave sometimes these days, but what hurts me most is when she is being fake. When she says: "I love you", and I can see how uncomfortable she is saying it, how there is no feeling behind the words, or when she goes to hug me and is so stiff and awkward about it, it just makes me want to cry, because I know she only says and does those things because I have screamed at her so many times, and because she has finally realised that this is something you are supposed to do.
My heart goes out to you, and I wish you were here so that I could give you a real hug, cyberhugs just aren't the same. All my love, Sleepy.
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Hello all, I feel a world better but I’m wary as ever, about myself and others. Maybe that’s healthy.
Chutzbagirl :D
I hope that as you sift through your memories and experiences and assess your current reactions to her behavior the actions you need to take will become clear.
I’ve started sifting again. The thing I keep focussed is ‘intention’ that great word. Did she intend to hurt me then, or was I hurt because of the way I perceived it? Why did she say/do that? (as a child talking or doing). I’m coming up with truly amazing stuff, which makes me sad, because it supports the child view.
Brigid: 8)
You seem to be coming to terms with the fact that she can't return that attention or caring, however much you might wish that were different.
I guess she does return it and has done! -as that kiddie. A kiddie who wants to share her toys with me, but I don’t like any of her toys. (Wow, that sparks a few neurons. Note to self: think about what she likes and how I may react by deliberately not liking what she likes…..). I’m coming to terms with her huge limitations. And mine too.
GFN :D
That much selection is not usual/normal/sane....to forget an entire developmental stage of our child. It's weird and abnormal, imo.
It’s not sane is it?
No. Insane: not knowing what’s reality and what’s in your head. Oh heck, she qualifies with that fantasy about Dad doesn’t she? It’s my problem that I don’t like the insane label. ‘Living in an alternative reality’ I can cope with. And it means exactly the same thing. How we kid ourselves. Mind you, I’d like someone to define ‘sane’ to me… :P
For a 2 1/2 year old, that's pretty adult eh? (feeling deprived of such normal/natural/usually pleasant memory--I mean).
Good point. It’s only come up lately because (I guess) she’s been exposed to a less-unreal family environment and she’s seeing what’s she’s missed (but like that toddler, “why can’t I have that?” kind of response). It’s irritating when I choose not be hurt by it.
She wants to remember but those segments/bytes are blocked/dead space/gone? Or, she reads you like a book and says this because she knows it will have an effect on you?
I think they’re blocked. I remember her as a ‘mother’ (much later), even if she doesn’t remember me. And she was permanently ‘zoned out’. I hated that. She was unreachable. She doesn’t read me at all GFN, it’s so sad. She can’t manipulate me, she doesn’t know enough about me. She doesn’t try to find out enough about me, she doesn’t know how. She actually doesn’t know how. I mean that literally. She doesn’t know how to do ordinary stuff if it’s outside her normal MO.
Who knows if it's selective memory or true memory loss,
:idea: Is there a difference???? Funny chap the brain. Who knows…. :roll:
It’s better to think you’re dumber than you are I find
Yes. Or in my case.....prove it
I think you protest too much. Yes I do. :D Yes I do!
If she says something and you think: "She's just a child", your feeling after that might be more sympathetic toward her and cause less personal injury to you.
Yep. I did it today! With another email. It worked!
If you think: "Ouch that hurts", you're going to feel sad, maybe angry
Yes, so I think, what’s the intention behind her words? Was it really to hurt me? She doesn’t know that she’s 'supposed' to feel horrified that her daughter was in so much pain (I know because I’ve been in a similar place as many of us have). Similar by a small percentage, but enough to know that when you’re not present in the here and now, you don’t feel.
protect the palace. And that palace is you, Portia
Thanks GFN. Those kind of words make me squirm :? you know? I might feel that one day, that I’m okay, but not yet. I find the best way to feel good about me is to take myself out of myself into other people. To try and connect. To keep feeling the range of emotions in me and recognising them for what they are. But I don’t feel worthy but so what ( :P haha!) I don’t care! Worrying about it won’t help I feel. What an irony. :roll:
The only thing you are denying is that her needs are more important than yours. Whatever obligations you are feeling.....are not to yourself, they're to her. The communications mean something to her and you don't want to take that away from her, even if it means those communications hurt you.
But wait! I’m assuming all over the place! How do I know what things mean to her? I’m making myself feel good here, presuming that I have some influence in her life. She might not give a monkey’s proverbial. ? And I gotta say, I do allow her to hurt me, I am responsible for my responses. I’m out on a limb on that one to an extent, but as I try and practice it more, I’m finding it to be true. But re-wiring your hard-wired responses is not easy. It’s like what?..... major surgery, that you’re performing on yourself, while under anaesthetic, with one hand tied behind your back. And the other juggling a scalpel. Dramatic? It is. Second order changes to thought-patterns are dramatic. But it’s a brain! It can cope.
That's ok. As long as you're aware of it and can find ways to protect yourself, until things change (she is admitted or passes). Maybe it's not denial, come to think of it, anyway? If you do what you feel obligated to do now, you will not feel guilty for not doing it, later, when you look back. So really, it's another way of taking care of you. Am I confusing or what??
Not confusing at all. It’s not just what I might feel obligated to do…..ta dah…it’s what I want to do. For me! I refuse to give my mother up because that would hurt me too much. I choose.
GFN, you’re great. Thanks. I’m saving your next post to next week, coz that gets real serious. Have a blooming great weekend.
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Mud :D
it is more than just anonymous electron connections. It is more than that.
Do we even really understand what electricity is? It’s a wonder in itself. Odd word anonymous. Anon. Maybe if we lost our individuality, we’d all be anon. Hmmm. It is more, together we are more. true :D Oh yes. BTW, that old grouse, was it a Capercaille (tetrao urogallus)? They’re famous here for attacking cars and people in the breeding season (tho’ we don’t have many). You were lucky to escape without serious pecking. peck peck peck....nasty :D
Hiya Longtire 8) and big hugs for your new home.
It is hard to find a defining event or pivotal moment in neglect or absence to hang all of the hurt, disappointment, fear, sadness, anger, rage on.
I did have moments, but it skewed my views. In my eyes my step-father was abusive. I enmeshed with mother but also grew up ‘protecting’ her. I guess when he died my world-view took a severe beating, thank goodness. He wasn’t just the baddy and mommy the goodie, which is how I’d seen it. But yeah…mum and bio-dad were pretty much the same, not there. So step-dad is a diversion of sorts. Heck it’s complicated.
In the past it was easier for me to see others' pain, than my own. Some good people turned around and pointed out that I was in pain too, because they could see my pain more clearly than their own.
Me too. I just shrugged and said yeah, well, that’s my history, I can’t change it. But I didn’t feel any pain. I thought I was okay. I’m still amazed at how not-okay I am.
About ‘feeling’ the abuse more now. I take what you say Longtire and Chutzbagirl. I’m not going to take it, but I might see it differently. I’ll see.
Brigid :D
You live with what you have and just accept it as the norm.
I wailed “why can’t we be like a normal family?” because some stuff was sooooo abnormal. But that was surface stuff. I just wanted someone to be there in the mornings, I wanted the odd shopping trip, or to go somewhere together. Just to ‘fit in’ with society so I didn’t have to make excuses for their downright crazy lifestyle. Love? Forget it. :(
It wasn't until I had my own children
This is a huge wake-up it seems. I couldn’t have had children when I was younger I think because I just wasn’t adult enough. I was a mess. Also mother had indoctrinated me against having kids and I bought that idea – look what it did to her I thought. :? She didn’t know that’s how I processed it I guess. Anyway I’m too old now but I’m realising what real love is and adjusting my thinking. For example my mother said: “I think about you every day.” Another mother commented on that: “that’s not right. I wouldn’t say that to my kids. It would be like saying “I think about my leg every day”. My kids are part of me, although they’re separate now, I just wouldn’t talk to them like that.” Wow! :shock: I understand! :D
Sleepyhead 8) , thank you so much for dipping in here. I don’t think I really know about love yet but I get inklings, like the one above. Caring I guess. I don’t like yours treating you like a slave, particularly not at the moment. Hope you don’t catch yourself acting like one? No I think you’re too clued up. I hope so. Did I read ‘turnip-land’ somewhere? I always think of Poland as beetroot land. Sorry it’s just an old image. Beetroot soup. Yum! I hope whatever wherever is going to be good for you and all your family – that’s your immediate family of three of course. I get “love you” in a sing-song voice down the phone. Sad. No idea what it is, it’s just a thing on greeting cards and she thinks no-one really means it do they? Best not to say anything I guess. Hold on to what you know and feel and grab your own reality to you hard, yep.
Thank you all. Hope you have good weekends! :D P
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Good to hear you!
I feel a world better...
So glad to hear it! :D :D
... but I’m wary as ever, about myself and others. Maybe that’s healthy.
It's better than being blind and off guard, I think. :shock: That would be careless and dangerous, maybe?
It’s my problem that I don’t like the insane label.
That's ok. You don't have to assign it then. :D It's whatever fits and works for you....in your mind...to help you understand/feel ok.....that matters.
I’d like someone to define ‘sane’ to me…
1. Of sound mind; mentally healthy.
2. Having or showing sound judgment; reasonable.
By this definition, it is impossible for anyone to be completely sane, all of the time, about all things. We all have moments of insanity, insane thoughts, sometimes, I think.
‘Living in an alternative reality’
I'm not sure I would define some people who I believe are living in an alternative reality as insane, but they sure aren't normal. On the other hand, according to the above definition.....they may be a little. :D
Normal...is even harder to define eh? :?
It’s irritating when I choose not be hurt by it.
The irritation will pass. Good choice, on your part! :D
She doesn’t read me at all GFN, it’s so sad.
Sorry for that Portia. :( She's like a child that isn't mature enough to read much at all. Only what she wants, decides, is interested in, feels like doing/having/saying. It's not you. It's toddlerhood, Bunny is soooo right about that!
She doesn’t know how to do ordinary stuff if it’s outside her normal MO.
Maybe one of the hardest things to except is that she never will know? She's just not going to grow up. :( :shock: :? :x :roll: :(
If she says something and you think: "She's just a child", your feeling after that might be more sympathetic toward her and cause less personal injury to you.
Yep. I did it today! With another email. It worked!
Way to go!! Thatta girl!! It seems a very reasonable, healthy, sane way to choose to react. It will only help you to keep trying. :D
Yes, so I think, what’s the intention behind her words? Was it really to hurt me?
Can a toddler really answer these questions accurately? Do they even plan that well? Is their judgement that sound? You swipe my toy, I swipe it back and wack you on the arm as quick. If I'm only 2 1/2, I probably didn't think about that at all beforehand, or consider how much I could hurt you. I just reacted. I didn't even think for a split second about you. It's all about me, my toy, my anger, my wanting to get what I want.
So, as you tell her about your pain....she reacts without thinking, without planning, without considering, with very little adult-like judgement....just like a toddler. Yep. That's a bigger block/stone Bunny gave you than might be realized yet. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. You will never know her intentions (truly) because she doesn't have the insight, the memory, the development to recall them, if they ever existed, maybe?
But I don’t feel worthy but so what ( haha!) I don’t care! Worrying about it won’t help I feel.
Certainly worrying is a waste of time (and if there is anyone here who never worries about anything.....please stand up :shock: ). But maybe.... if I keep sh...nagging you about it....you'll begin to believe it's true. You're not some useless, nothing that is worthless. You're a good person, Portia. You have good qualities. You care about connecting with others and feeling and understanding and sharing. Truly all of this resides in a palace, not a dungeon. Nag. Nag. SHNag. :roll:
However, somehow you have come to believe this worthless stuff....probably because your mother was too childish to teach you otherwise. Maybe you were just like a toy to her? Maybe she meant you no ill intent, but really just didn't have the sound mind, wasn't mentally healthy enough, was unreasonably into herself, unable to make sound judgements about mothering.... like a toddler. To childish to be a mother to anyone. It wasn't you she didn't value. It is that what she values is juvenile and less sane than adult people??
But re-wiring your hard-wired responses is not easy. It’s like what?..... major surgery, that you’re performing on yourself, while under anaesthetic, with one hand tied behind your back. And the other juggling a scalpel. Dramatic?
True. And nothing worth achieving is easy.
But it’s a brain! It can cope.
Bingo. Plus....it's not a juvenile mind. It's lucky. It's grown up and can understand, deal with, be reasonable about, show sound judgement toward/about, make healthy choices in regard to....stuff. It's much saner than a toddler's brain is.
I refuse to give my mother up because that would hurt me too much. I choose.
So then what's left is accepting her for what she is, trying to see what's good in her and embracing that, dealing with her on her level (which sucks because it isn't fair but it's probably the only way to relate with her/connect somewhat :( ). You choose to keep her in your life and I bet you will continue to feel better by gaining more and more understanding and doing your best to empathize, while deciding your reactions. That's what makes you so much different from her. Makes you so much more adult....sane....in a more usual/normal/common reality.
GFN, you’re great.
Portia, too kind, but thanks. I really appreciate you saying that. Now go shine your palace!!! 8)
Ya......the next post is serious but don't panic. It's only bytes on a pc screen. More stuff to sort....as if you haven't enough. :roll: No need to respond at all, if you don't feel like it.
Have a blooming great weekend.
You too!! I'm planning on cleaning up my gardens and out door stuff. It's perfectly gorgeous......warm, sunny, breezy, birdies singing, doggies dancing in the grass....lovely here. I love the spring!! :D
GFN
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Hi Portia,
BTW, that old grouse, was it a Capercaille (tetrao urogallus)? They’re famous here for attacking cars and people in the breeding season (tho’ we don’t have many).
Nope, no Capercaille. Those puppies are big.
This was something called a Blue Grouse. Not as large, but obviously made of the same stuff as their big brothers across the pond.
Do we even really understand what electricity is?
Not trying to be a wise guy but, yeah pretty much we do. In our everyday life its the flow of electrons in a conducter from a negative poll to a positive one.
Now electrons themselves are pretty darn odd. I will not try to explain quantum mechanics here for the very simple reason I don't understand one friggin' speck of it. But take it from me they're weird.
Not however as weird as your mother. I hope you are on the road to understanding her better and how she effected you over the years.
If you can figure her out maybe you should become a nuclear physicist. :wink:
mudpup
PS. Glad you're feeling better. And thanks for the kind PM.
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Dear all,
Oh, Boy, why I did not find that thread seven years ago, when I had to deal with all that problems Portia ist dealing now. T :( hat would have been an enourmous help.
For me now, I kind of forgot about my mother if that if possbible at least as long as I am far far away. She is none of my interest anymore.
My mother could have been a twin of Portias mother. All the same lieing, behaviour, even gotten fat :lol:, did not want me to have children and so on. All the same.
I just pretend and I think and that I have done in my whole life unconsiously, that I have a mother. I had none, never had one. That just the simple truth.
I think that was the cause seven years ago when all that problems with my mother restarted. I did wanted to have a mother and then suddenly, I remembered I had a mother: So well, why not doing the mother and daughter thing. Go shopping together, go into a cinema and so on.
But I forget, she was not my mother. She never was. I am back to that point. I worked to a lot of hurt, but the thing is I do not even feel hurt anymore. She is just a none to me. Faded.
I think the problem for Portias problem and for many is, that we want a loving mother, father and sister or brother in your life. A spouse is easier, we just get another on. But a mother, a father? It is not like we can go put and search for them.
When I was younger I asked my teachers and Professors, if they would like be to my mother and the response was mostly strange.
So how to get a mother? Like with the rabbit and the hat, where to get here.
Part of not needing a mother anymore, is that other people in my life make that function, my bfriend, other friends but mostly my bfriend. And another part is that I try to be motherly for other people in my life.
Thing is we do not have all in life, the whole sprectrum which the commercials will like to tell us.
So, I do not have a mother, some had no father, at least I had a father. I do not have a brother or a sister. Sometimes I had good friends. Some people are without family at all.
If we let go of that tale that we have to have a loving mother in life, thing will be different. It is not common to have a loving mother. Many just do not have. I see this with many children around. Not every mother loves her children.
So we have to leave and find our luck somewhere else. Why forcing something that does not work? Why we just not move on to other happier and friendlier people?
Every life is special. I am happy for many things in life, even if some made me unhappy. That is the way it is.
I agree very much with GFN.
Blessings to all,
Samantha
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I am not sure why I have not replied to any of this thread before. I think I have found it hard to get past the title - too scarey.
Sorry Portia. :oops:
I can relate to many of your thoughts about your mum. Mine too is like a toddler, and seems to see me as her surrogate mother figure. She is very demanding of everyone around her, to maintain her inner stability. If that stability is threatened she reacts with grief, rage, anger; you name it, whatever will best push the buttons of the people involved. And whatever she does keeps herself well and truly in the spotlight as the martyr, or the queen, or the little princess; whatever her inner image may be.
One little story. My daughter was her first grandchild, and when she was born I asked my mum if she wanted to be called 'gran' or 'nana'. The grandmother on the other side was already called 'nannie' by her other grandchildren, so I thought that was sensible for C to call her, but I wanted mum to choose for herself.
Her reply was 'well, we will leave it for her (the baby) to choose.' She wanted to abdicate to a newborn baby the responsibility for giving her a name.
I had to explain to her that it doesn't work like that. You teach a child what to call a person by using the name for them, until they adopt it for themselves. She could not/would not choose, though, so I chose for her. I chose that she would be 'grandma'. Then, rather bizarrely, when my brother had children, his boys used the name 'nana' instead. I do not know who chose that, or what that is all about. But it makes for a lot of confusion, I must say!! Cousins who have a different name for their grandparent, and nobody ever knows who they are talking about. :?
Sorry, got carried away. What I am trying to say is that when these 'mothers' sit at the centre of a family they affect everyone in it with their own particular disfunction, and that people such as you and I trying to make sense, or find rationality or functioning, will try in vain.
Sorry to not help more before now. (((((((P))))))))
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Portia,
Who are you now? Do you exist as a whole or part person outside of, and apart from, your relationship with your mother?
How important is she in your daily life? Does her affect on you hinder your life plans? Have you ever gone through any individuation therapy or individuation process? Did she see you and treat you as an extension of herself, particularly when you were a small child, up to say the age of 8 or 10?
I think that the answer to these questions are very important for you to know. Search "individuation" on the net if the term is unclear. Or perhaps others here may have been through the process at a later stage in life through therapy?
Guests with an 'S'.
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GFN:
You're a good person, Portia. You have good qualities. You care about connecting with others and feeling and understanding and sharing.
I believe this GFN :D . Thank you for saying those things. The connecting etc, it's hard work.
So then what's left is accepting her for what she is, trying to see what's good in her and embracing that, dealing with her on her level (which sucks because it isn't fair but it's probably the only way to relate with her/connect somewhat ). You choose to keep her in your life and I bet you will continue to feel better by gaining more and more understanding and doing your best to empathize, while deciding your reactions.
You said it so well!
Mudpup
If you can figure her out maybe you should become a nuclear physicist.
I’ve heard that rocket science is actually very simple! So maybe…..maybe one day I’ll visit that Cern establishment in Geneva where they keep that mega-huge particle accelerator. I love that! Amazing stuff. And they do tours! I just want to have a look…
Btw I copied your unconditional love post, I appreciated it, I understood it!
Samantha
So we have to leave and find our luck somewhere else. Why forcing something that does not work? Why we just not move on to other happier and friendlier people?
I’m not looking for a mother elsewhere - after all, I’m not sure exactly what I’d be looking for? My problem was that I was forcing something that didn’t work – for all my life until now. Once I stop forcing my mother idea onto her – bingo – I can accept her for what she is, rather than what she is not. She’s not a big part of my life, so it doesn’t seem to be a problem at the moment. It might be as she gets older, but we’re not there yet. I’ll have to see. Thanks for posting Samantha!
October
I have not replied to any of this thread before. I think I have found it hard to get past the title - too scarey.
Gosh why October? I meant it in ‘object relations’ type terms – the mother in my head, as opposed to the one who actually lives in the real world. The idea of my mother to me, and the idea that I wanted to change. I can’t change the real her, so I have to change the idea of her I have in my head. Is that scary?
people such as you and I trying to make sense, or find rationality or functioning, will try in vain.
I agree with you. So best to stop trying and concentrate on us! And treat them as the people they really are, rather than what we wish they would be. Being tolerant of them doesn’t diminish us, pretending to go along with their reality while we are with them might make all our lives easier. If we can’t do that, we need to stay away. I know there are some things right now I couldn’t cope with too easily with mine, so I won’t put myself in those situations.
Guest
Do you exist as a whole or part person outside of, and apart from, your relationship with your mother?
Yes. Ab-so-lute-ly! :D
How important is she in your daily life?
Practically, not at all important. In my head, I think of it as ‘this mother stuff’ meaning all my childhood, but that’s not her. She isn’t actually in my daily life at all. Okay, I’ve had some electronic messages from her recently and I’ve replied, but it didn’t bother me. I reacted like you would do with a small child who wants things (I actually smiled at one ‘demand’ because it was so obviously a small child.) Give them what they want (within reason and my boundaries) and let them carry on exploring the world. But unlike a small child, she doesn’t need my protection so I don’t worry.
Does her affect on you hinder your life plans?
It has done. I don’t know what my plans are now. I have to keep grappling with step-dad’s effect on me a little more. Let myself be allowed to live. Allow myself what I want. I live with someone who has trouble allowing himself stuff too. We're like kids when we do allow ourselves things, like holidays.
Have you ever gone through any individuation therapy or individuation process?
Nope not before. Not at all. Honestly! I did just google the word and yep, that’s what’s happening to me. I can see it happening. I’ve been watching it for a little while, about 2 months? Don’t know. But there’s one occasion in that time when my mouth opened and this completely bland, level statement came out of it, in response to what I would have previously have responded to with a complete defence/attack reply. It would have been full on (and I felt that response but let-it-go). After this statement (“yes, you’re probably right”) came out of my mouth recently, I almost went into pleasurable shock! In-credible, and such a tiny thing, but so much (ball hits 1,000 extra points, side-lights light up, I love pinball).
Did she see you and treat you as an extension of herself, particularly when you were a small child, up to say the age of 8 or 10?
Yes. She still does! But and it’s a big but, I had my grandparents to let me know I was valued and separate. It’s not the same, but it means I’m here and not a complete mess. Also, rather than most of the time treating me as part of her, instead, most of the time: she treated me as nothing, not existing. I think that’s because she pretty well felt she was nothing at the time. She wasn’t very well. She has many times looked at me as though she doesn’t know who I am, and even talked to me in those terms, jokingly. I guess because she doesn’t know who she is? Once at an adult party, my step-brother and I were sitting talking, away from the adults. We were both early teenagers. She looked across at us and said in a condescending way “who are those people over there?” smiling. I guess she suddenly realised I wasn’t her? Oh who cares! :roll:
I’m not my mother. Freedom of speech is an important antidote to Voicelessness I think. By talking we find out what we really think and believe. Then we can look at why we think and believe what we do. And that’s fun! Because we can change those things.
Who am I? I still feel sometimes I’m a child in a world full of grown-ups. When that feels ‘wrong’ or ‘bad’ I remind myself who’s telling me that and tell them to shut up.
Thanks for the questions Guest. I haven’t come back to this thread recently because I’ve become much more interested in finding out what step-dad (and Dad) tapes are playing in the background. I don’t believe anything left over from my mother, but I still believe, for example, that if someone values my work (I really dislike the distinction between work and play, work and life), I should be grateful - not thankful, not accepting but grovellingly grateful!! I know rationally that’s off, but emotionally? (Love it – 'me plus an unconscious nuisance disturbing to myself'). Recognising all this rubbish is great though. I can see where the garbage is sticking, so I can start cleaning it off. Chip, chip, rub, rub (I’ll be polishing soon GFN....maybe).
Thank you all for your posts. I couldn’t have done what I have done alone. Obviously :D
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Portia, it does indeed sound as though you are individuating! Your post here really rings that out. Congratulations on not reacting to your mother and just responding (rahter than reacting) with a bland statement. Great Job!
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Thank you Bunny,
I deal in images and your images cut through my thoughts like a hot knife through butter. No matter how many times I read “emotional child” it doesn’t work like a picture. Here’s your mother: look, see clearly. I appreciate your first paragraph. It matches what I ‘dare’ to think, what I can cope with. I don’t have reasonable conversations at all. I’m amazed that she still drives. I’m amazed she hasn’t been banned (she’s been stopped by the police a few times). But she still functions, she’s very resilient. She writes, attends women’s groups, finds friends to holiday with, has relationships of sorts etc.
Heck, I knew that about it being her fantasy to get back with my Dad, but to my mind, that was too crazy to voice. I forget that that is my perception, not hers (that the idea is too crazy is my perception…etc). My Dad has been married now for 24 years: that doesn’t affect her fantasy. I have other examples too, of this fantasy in her. (I told her Dad was on holiday somewhere, “who with?” she asked. Very sad on reflection. Very sad.) Thank you for saying it out loud bunny, it makes it all true.
As for what her problems are, they sure are many. I talk to two people about her, H when he doesn’t mind and tiny bits to my step-mother. (This is a trade-off, step-mother talks to me about Dad and she has to, I understand her situation too well and though it sounds dodgy in boundary senses, she’s pretty healthy.) <Shock, roll eyes, put that on hold.> Very recently I told step-mother “I think with just a nudge in one direction or another, she could well be {in need of in-patient care}.” Step-mother isn’t surprised by anything. I wondered about the accuracy of what I’d said afterwards, and decided it was accurate to me. It depends what I mean by “nudge”. I worry about her and the external real world. I wondered if her GP would talk to me. She’s been prescribed so many different things over the years, from the old valium type stuff to the new SSRIs. That practice must have a clue (I don’t expect much from doctors). If/when the need arises, I’ll find out I guess. It would be good to know now, both for me for myself, and for me for her in the future. I’d know what was likely/unlikely in terms of her behaviour. But that’s getting too close for me and it’s not necessary right now. As far as I know. But I’d like to be prepared. I have thought about this a lot, while I’ve been here. I can’t square it while she is still functioning, I can’t get involved. While she’s okay, it’s still only my stuff. My thinking is muddled here isn’t it? It seems so.
I don't think your thinking is at all muddled.
My N mother was granted a Catholic annullment back in the late '70's - in other words, to all who knew her, she was the 'wronged' wife and 'epitome' of a good mother. My father has been with his partner (now wife) since 1972 and only last year were my parents finally 'legally' divorced. My mother did this to trap, ensnare, taunt, torment and abuse him, just because he had the 'temerity' to leave her (I don't know why he stayed so long)......... A week after the 'divorce' she had a massive stroke. My belief is that she finally realised she had lost control over him and she literally 'burst'. There was no other receptacle to pour her hate into (apart from her four daughters, but we are used to her).
She's 78 now, still a viscious old b***h and all I can liken her to is a cardboard cutout of what a mother should be. I believe now I never had a 'Mother' - my simple definition of which would be - a harbour in a storm. Not her, she WAS the storm.
Sorry to vent.
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I believe now I never had a 'Mother' - my simple definition of which would be - a harbour in a storm. Not her, she WAS the storm.
This is such a powerful image, and so true for me too. Thank you. :)
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Longtire:
Portia, it does indeed sound as though you are individuating! Your post here really rings that out. Congratulations on not reacting to your mother and just responding (rahter than reacting) with a bland statement. Great Job!
Thanks Longtire :D for confirming, I do appreciate it. Feedback is so important! It wasn’t my mother re: the bland statement. It was in response to a rather rare retort from my partner. With mother I’ve tended to say what you’d say to a ‘normal’ person. E.g. she would ask me something (why? how? etc) and I’d tell her without regard for any limited capability. Inside I’d get upset, but wouldn’t show it (as ever). Now I can and have responded to her as she is (supplying a different kind of information) but importantly: I don’t get upset.
With my partner recently I recognised that he was reacting (with his unconscious I guess) and I didn’t have to escalate it just because I, in turn, *felt* criticised. I’ve started listening to what I might perceive as criticism and processing that, plus any associated emotion, before responding. And once you start doing that, I guess it gets easier. So simple and yet such a trudge getting to that point! Thanks Longtire.
Serena:
My belief is that she finally realised she had lost control over him and she literally 'burst'. There was no other receptacle to pour her hate into
That sounds like a sensible belief to me, people do have heart attacks/strokes for just those reasons I guess. That’s why I realised I couldn’t carry on being angry – chest pains!
Not her, she WAS the storm
I hope the ‘was’ means you don’t have much at all to do with her? She sounds like a storm alright, in a teacup, sloshing over the sides in an attempt to get noticed. Does she still sweep over you in everyday life? Sorry if you’ve talked about this and I missed it, or forgotten :? …but if you want to talk more, be my guest, vent away, I doubt we’ll run out of room? :D take care Serena
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I have not replied to any of this thread before. I think I have found it hard to get past the title - too scarey.
Gosh why October? I meant it in ‘object relations’ type terms – the mother in my head, as opposed to the one who actually lives in the real world. The idea of my mother to me, and the idea that I wanted to change. I can’t change the real her, so I have to change the idea of her I have in my head. Is that scary?
It is scary because - I have to use different language. In Biblical terms, I would say that the demon by which I am possessed is my Nmum demon, and that its aim is to destroy me. In modern terms, none of that is literally true, but the essence of it is true. The demon hates me, is jealous of me, and wants me dead. It wants this so that it can have my daughter for itself, and be the mum instead, rather than the grandmother. It has no idea how to be a grandmother, just as it had no idea how to be a mother, but it resents that I stand like a bloody great mountain 8) in the way of absolute power over C, and it doesn't like that.
people such as you and I trying to make sense, or find rationality or functioning, will try in vain.
I agree with you. So best to stop trying and concentrate on us! And treat them as the people they really are, rather than what we wish they would be. [/quote]
I find it easier to deal with the 3D mum than the one in my head. That is what is the hardest of all. I may never get rid of it. However, I can limit its power, bit by bit. Maybe. :? If I am honest, it has more control over me than I do, in terms of generating fears and withdrawal behaviours. Without the demon(s) 'I' am sociable, friendly and afraid of nothing. Even with it I remain a more responsible, mature adult than my 3D mum will ever be. But still not the person that I was meant to be.
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Hm. reading all this, it gave me some ideas. I just wrote a letter to friend with what my mother all did to me and how my father denied it.
I recognized, it helps to undo the things my Nmother did not do when I was a child. I am wearing a brace since four years and my teeth are lokking great. As a child teeth full of holes, because my mother did not care. The good thing is we loose the first teeth.
I am will start to learn French, because in School my mother did not care..and so on. The more I undo these things, the better I feel.
I feel less helpless, because now I have an influence on things I want in life and I now longer need someone who has the ideas.
I know that I have to separate completely from my parents to get on in my life. To heal and to make things undone. That is not very easy.
Oh, I think something more, people do accept this abusive behavious often and By accepting the behaviour it seems acceptable which it is not.
Samantha
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I believe now I never had a 'Mother' - my simple definition of which would be - a harbour in a storm. Not her, she WAS the storm.
This is such a powerful image, and so true for me too. Thank you. :)
She hasn't spoken to me since Christmas - her loss. I've always found living in a different country very helpful!!!