Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: hope2003 on November 14, 2003, 09:24:08 PM
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Sandahl kicked me off the board without so much as an explanation. I am completely disgusted. I couldn't respond.
There are so many people who needed support and healing, and Sandahl excercised sick control over an important discussion. the board should be driven by its members not by a dictator.
Thanks for suggesting this place.
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Hi hope,
This is gshelbygirl. I really do not know what to say hun. It appeared to me that someone didnt like to have to answer to their N ways. I wish I could post my email on here for you hope. I have alot to say, but refuse to say it in a forum. All I can say is that those actions were so hypicritical, I am speachless and I hope to shout that others volunteer to leave. We never got that chance, but you know what. I suppressed my voice to many times, I will be damned if I will continue to do so because somebody continues to have power issues. Good lord!!
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I agree. she made the ultimate N moves. I have e-mailed her directly and let her know the same.
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I had just joined shortly before this happened, and missed the whole beginning. From what I read, tho - it seemed like the practice on the board doesn't really agree with the information on the intro page about diversity of opinions, etc.
To those of you who know the whole story, I may be way off base. Because I'm not as far in my "evolution" in healing from N-ism, this whole thing has made me very uncomfortable about posting there.
I also emailed her, just to express my opinion on how the whole blow-up affected me (esp as a newbie). Don't know if I'll ever go back - honestly, I find this board much more comfortable and supportive, but that may be because I didn't have enough experience at the other one.
Just wanted to throw in my (uneducated) opinion.
bobbie
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Her brief response to both me and Mindy was "have a nice life." While it was an insult to call her an N, she acted like one. She was controlling, dismissive, hypocritical and just plain mean. She wants us to grovel to come back. Sandahl could have gotten on the board and said that she was offended by something that was said.
I notice that she has removed her nasty thread where she tells us it stops now.
she kicked us off with no notice, and she took away the support group for some people who really needed help.
I wish that she would make the private e-mails public. I think that you would all think that Gshelby and I got screwed. I don't know who the third is, but I am assuming accapella.
Anyone who is reading this should feel free to stop enabling Sandahl, and let the board know what happened, since she took away our voice.
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I think all that happened over there was just one major clusterfuck to where some people that were already sensitive got their feelings very hurt. Problems can be worked out!!
I've belonged to that board for a very long time and I have never had a problem with being able to say anything that i wanted and I pretty much speak my mind. That board , including Sandahl, has helped me alot, I dont think I would be where I am in my recovery if it werent for them all.
So, all in all, no matter what was even said, work this out and come back home, ok? We miss you all.... :cry:
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I can't work it out because I can't post. If you think that I am going to beg her for forgiveness you are wrong. Sandahl was in the wrong, and needs to admit such.
I would love to come back. I would love to tell you what she said to us "have a nice life" the board is not up for a vote. If you PM me, I can send you what Sandahl had to say, and you can be the Judge and jury. I have no problem with that.
Mindy came on strong on the board and off, but my public posts were not a problem. Sandahl could have politely said that she was offended and dealt with it accordingly. But, she erased the whole thread. the momentum was in my favor, and she put it to a stop.
Don't enable this woman. Let the other members know what she did.
Would AA toss somebody out for a disagreement. She doesn't care about healing, she cares about her own agenda.
I agree with Mindy that she acted like an N. It is a shame that you can't look at the facts for yourself since Sandahl erased the evidence.
Yes we are sensitive, many of us have been abused. But, that is no excuse to not allow a discussion. Read what she says. we can come back after we calm down. How about she calming down. So she gets to be the gatekeeper?
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by the way, she is exercising information control by trying to get the other members to support her and feel bad for her without knowing what happened.
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Youre right, I dont know what happened but I did manage to read a few of the posts before they were deleted and it didnt sound like much, atleast not what I read. I"m not saying that it didnt get bad, I just didnt see it I suppose.
Wasnt it about Herm leaving? What I really dont get here is what that has to do with us? I mean I know I will be affected because Herm was very helpful but what goes on between her and Sandahl is their business, not mine. I dont think that's enabling Sandahl as much as respecting Herms wishes for privacy...what do you think?
If you didnt get anything from or like that board then no, I dont think you should apologize but if you do and if you ever DID then I think EVERYONE should apologize, Sandahl included. I do think there should be more of an explanation of why things were deleted but she IS the gatekeeper/manager of that board and who knows what reasons she had. I do wish she would explain ,maybe she will when things calm down a bit.
I just dont know her to be an Ogre of anykind and even though you two think she is acting like an N doesnt mean she IS an N, we all act N'ish from time to time, remember? That was one of our posts!
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I am able to talk to Herm directly. Herm did not like the way that Sandahl responded to her on a thread. Perhaps herm was a little too sensitive, but I don't think it was about her privacy. As I said on my thread, Sandahl should have left the goodbye for at least 24 hours so that if Herm was lurking, she could have the chance to see how much she is wanted and valued. I was trying to avoid hard feelings. Herm deleted within a few hours.
Once again, I can't get on the board to say anything, and I refuse to grovel with Sandahl privately. She is acting like an ass. Period.
Other members need to put the pressure on her to come to us and rethink her position. Actually, if you read her thread, a couple of members have tried to do just that, but she is being stubborn.
Again, she told both me and Mindy to "have a nice life" The fact that she manages the board shouldn't give her the right to delete threads and posts that are helpful to the majority. The members should have some vote. She literally told me that the board was not up for a vote.
The board really helped me. There are many caring people. Even Sandahl has helpful words, but frankly, Hermione was more helpful, as were others.
On this board, we are able to have a open discussion. Why can't we do that on the N partners board? Because there is a dictator who couldn't handle a little criticism which began as polite, and admittedly got nasty in private.
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another thought. It was o.k. for topics to be left on the board like TantraGuy talking about orgasms and such, and it was o.k. for members to ocassionally swear, but I couldn't try to have a discussion about how different views should be expresseed. It is crazy.
I notice there are a lot of people reading this thread. I have to believe it is a lot of the members of Npartners. I hope that you will come to the assistance of your fellow members.
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one of you posted the mission statement on the other board. It talks about inclusiveness of views. The mission statement makes my point exactly. I wanted to air the discussion in front of everyone. Sandahl wanted it to be private-between her and the member. It seems to me that she has violated the rules more than I did or Mindy or Acappella.
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I only have read your post here Hope2003, I'll read the others later.
I am so glad you are here!
I just went to the NPartner's board and I found that I had been deleted from there. I was taken off as a member. I never wrote anything to Sandahl other than what I posted. I kept copies of it all and am glad I did. She never even emailed me to explain deleting me from the board.
I think this just goes to show that we all have N-trait potential and forgetting that is the first step to inviting the development of those traits.
I am so glad that i have enough support and am healed enough to have a shread of confidence regarding the exchange. What a good group therapy lesson. I am so glad that I used a venue with built in boundaries (the internet) to experience that. I am about to do some job hunting and I am so very much clearer about what to watch out for especially with authority figures. The strong voices that protested really give me more confidence in humanity in general. I am so much more thankful for kind and strong people that I am now committed to finding more like YOU in my life.
I worry about others though. If I had experienced that under slightly different circumstances it might have been a much bigger blow. I hope that Hermoine is OK. I wonder how many others have been subjected to controlling defensive, even offensive, reactions like that at that board?
There is an excellent book I am reading called The Childhood Roots of Adult Happiness. Dispite my goal being more contentment than happiness and my childhood being long over (at least officially) I bought the book because I want to focus on what works not just what is broken. And also I am volunteering soon to work with "at-risk" kids. The author is full of heart and mentions many in depth longitudinal studies (same children studies over many years, decades even) with large sample sizes etc. What is extra wonderful is his chapter on recognition. He really gets to the core of narcissism and of echoism and even notes how he felt pangs of both in his youth (regarding specific recognition he received).
I don't have time to post much right now but I am so glad this forum is here and I have learned to check out boards and be more discerning next time. There seemed to be more chatting going on there but I will choose quality over quantity now.
I just wrote a post a week or two ago to Dr. Grossman and thanked him for the site and I didn't even know then how much more thankful I was about to become.
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Hi everyone,
On the Npartner forum I am Gshelbygirl. I was the one who responded to Sand by saying she showed traits of N when she refused to listen to others opinions that might not have jived with hers. To clarify what I meant by that, I did not call her a Narcissist, I stated she was acting like one. Good communication between two people involves both a messenger and a receiver. A dominated conversation involves a sender who is not receptive to letting the receiver reciprocate by stating their thoughts. I can speak for myself, but this seemed to be the pattern that I experienced during my two year relationship with my N boyfriend. He would ask me to clarify something, then as I began to explain my words, I would be silenced because he did not like what I was saying.
That is exactly what happened on that post. You know the funny thing about all of this, I wasn't going to respond to what hope had posted because I was not aware of the Herm ordeal. I have always practiced what I preach. I feel that if you are not involved directly in a conflict, unless you are fully informed of all the circumstances, you really have no right to put your two cents in. So, being the person I am, I did not respond about herm. However I felt the way Sand handled the herm situation, she was wrong for thinking that the post should be deleted. It would have been different if many voiced the same thoughts, but as far as I can tell, the only voicing about herm that was done was from those who were saddened by her departure. Then what really made me want to speak out was that I noticed that when Sand posted anything, she would come across to me that it was her way or the highway. Good gosh, she might be a manager but I really do not recall her title to be that of "Last and Final Word Judge". She asked for members input, she didn't like what she was hearing, so IMHO she used her authority as a manager to silence the words that didn't coincide with her own opinions.
I find this to be very hipocritical due to the fact that one of the lasting impressions that a relationship with a Narcissistic person leaves on another person is that the partner felt voiceless during the relationship. Hummm, imagine that. The name of this forum is how a N leaves you standing in the dust as they flee the relationship. I have voiced many times that I felt I had lost the right to be my own person because of my relationship. Everyone encouraged me to regain my strength to voice my own opinions. There were many people who encouraged me to speak up when I feel I have something to contribute to the subject at hand. Well, after reading Hope2003 post on Herm, I felt that as a member of that forum, as a person who had something to say about all the childish statements like "if members didnt like how it was run, they were free to leave at any time, and for the fact that Sand and Sand alone felt that the Herm saga was a done deal and that everyone must drop it now and move onto another subject". It came across as domineering to me and by God, I will speak for myself here, I kept my opinion to myself to many times during my relationship while I was walking on egg shells to not set the N off. I will not regress back to those times for anyone.
You know, then for Sand to go on the board and post her version of events, and they were not forth coming with all of the information, was wrong and yet she refused to accept the majority of the replies as an indication of her wrong doing. I also have read many articles that state that it is not abnormal for people involved in a N relationship to pick up some of the N traits. I felt she demonstrated this very thing. I reached MY OWN CONCLUSIONS by her actions. I did not call her a N, but IMHO, she sure was acting with N behavior by her actions. I meant nothing more, nothing less with that statement then that.
I have argued way more in the past two years with my xN then I care to ever experience again. So argueing with strangers online over perceived or should I say misperceived typed words, just really to me isn't appealing right now. She can think what she wants, and by golly I can think what I want. Bottom line is, we both had the right to state our opinions, but we both should respect each others rights to voice them freely. Sand assured that our side would not be presented. Funny, how many posts did I read that stated the same feelings about dealing with a N post relationship. Oh well, two wrongs do not make a right. I just like to play a game with equal rules. A game is no fun when the results are rigged and predetermined.
Mindy
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Nike,
"Problems can be worked out!! "
Only if dialogue is allowed.
Hope,
"violated the rules more than I did or Mindy or Acappella"
I (Acappella on that site) violated NO rules. I saw nothing in Mindy or in your posts Hope that violated any rules either. The rules have been changed and now include no "bickering". Wow is that ever subjective and we weren't bickering we only asked that our posts to Hermione be left on the site for a while. I ASKED. You asked. " Bickering" suggests our debate was not valid. It isn't about right nor wrong of a viewpoint it is ONLY about the validity of discussion.
"Perhaps herm was a little too sensitive" I have seem many posts along those same lines among those who chose to take the middle ground or even defer to Sandahl despite not investigating what happened. "Too sensitive?!" Too assertive is more like it. There are many references now to messed up emotional people...the debate was belittled as whining and it was framed as being about Hermione. It began in response to her disappearing BUT it wasn't about her. Sadly some folks posting on the Npartners site are referring to themselves along those lines too ...we (they include themselves) are just messed up and get too emotional...etc. etc. B.S. That can be true and that is not what this is about. The debate was calm and healthy and only escalated when Sandahl started acting very defensive, paranoid, controlling, manipulative etc. Even then everything I saw was civil. Sandahl was civil AND manipulative and controlling (unilateral use of power to effect another person/s) and paranoid.
Again I have the posts and I will share them with anyone who is interested. If Sandahl was having an emotional reaction we so would have welcomed her admitting to that. Or at least just letting the discussion sit on the forum.
This is bothering me so much. I feel somewhat like an idiot. I had reservations about the site that, unlike this site, did not subside with time.
I am not clear why I am so totally pissed off right now but I am very ANGRY. I am angry about being cut off in a place I let myself feel connected in and I let one stupid person control my connection with others and I had no idea I was allowing that. My husband's N traits are less severe than those exhibited by Sandahl's recent behavior.
If this means I am too sensitive well then I am damned proud, proud of whatever it is that I am that means I finally am seeing a shared reality that I CHOOSE to belong to and some others I consciously DO NOT.
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Yes echo: you recommended that we come here. The least that Sandahl could have done was to leave up your thread so that those who wanted to leave, or those that she kicked off could get support. Instead she pulled out our life line. I was getting a lot of support. She silenced me, Mindy and you, and then manipulated the situation with posts to help her get sympathy.
I will not beg to come back. She owes me an apology. I am sorry if I touched on any soft spots because I never want to hurt somebody, but I am not going to enable her.
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The more I think about Sands behavior, the more I know I was right about her acting in a N manner. I also know this, I will be damned if I will apologise for saying so. I did that over and over and over with my N to calm a situation. Looking back to those times, I apologized for something that he did or said, no more. I am woman enough to accept responsibility for my actions, but I will be damned if I will be a woman who accepts responsibility for others actions. I do not always have to be right, but everything Sand did screams how desperate she is to always feel she is right. IMHO, she sucker punched and ran just as my xN did. If you look back to some of her post, she clearly demonstrates that she feels her word to be the gospil truth. She might possess alot of knowledge about NPD, but I do not recall her mentioning she has a PHD in psychology. I stand by what I said, and guess what, if she doesn't like what I had to say, then prove me wrong. Help me see that I am wrong, I welcome challenges. The only thing I think she did was to prove me right.
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I agree and that was the point I kept trying to make to Sandahl both on the board and privately.
I will share our exchanges with anyone who sends me a private message and they can judge for themselves.
I know that some of you N partners are reading this, and nobody is going to bat for us.
Sandahl has created fear.
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Jaded, I can't find fault in you, and the fact that she erased her own thread where she demands that the discussion stop now speaks volumes about her guilt. I would love for the other partners to be able to review everything that happened.
Maybe you guys should start a new thread with copies of some of the deleted posts. I have a copy of my original thread, but that is it. then the Npartners who lurk here can check it out.
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I will share our exchanges with anyone who sends me a private message and they can judge for themselves.
DITTO
I know that some of you N partners are reading this, and nobody is going to bat for us.
NOR THEMSELVES REALLY.
Sandahl has created fear.
She didn't create those who give into it. She is a great harvester of the fear that is there. And she is planting more seeds. IT IS MORE CLEAR NOW WHO IS MORE FRIGHTENED OF FEAR THAN WHO, IN THIS CASE AT LEAST. "We have nothing to fear but fear its self...." So, so true. Fear is a teacher not a preacher, an indicator not a harbinger ...if she/we fear it, run from it how can we learn from it? I am getting courage from this incident.
I am learning that to feel really safe with people I need to choose folks with the sort of integrity and courage and confidence being demonstrated in response to this event by you folks here in this thread. You are well named HOPE.
Arrg. THis is exhausting!
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Hello, I was hermione on n-partners. I am sorry that this terrible thing occurred. What a betrayal by Sandahl. Hope contacted me and told me about this board and what occurred on N-partners. I hadn't read N-partners after I decided to leave. I had no private conversations with Sandahl at all. I just felt that she was becoming hostile. Basically I thought she would kick me off, so I left first. Then this stuff happened afterward where she became very punitive and horrible to you guys. I wanted to say it is awful what she did, and thank goodness this forum was here. Thanks echo for telling people about this forum.
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Welcome bunny/hermione: I wish you could have been on the board to see the support that came pouring out for you. Your advice has always been welcome, as have your lively discussions.
Hopefully, we can come together here, in a safe place.
Echo, it seems that you experienced the biggest slight of all of us. you didn't even have a private tiff with Sand. The good news is that I think that we have separated to a group that can support each other and we can get back to healing.
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Bunny/Herm,
It is good to see you here. You do not owe anyone an apology for what occurred. You did nothing wrong. Part of the healing process is knowing when you were in the wrong and when you need to offer an apology. If I felt you were in the wrong, I would not have posted. I observed Sands hostile responses to you. IMHO she directed several comments to you in a demeaning manner, she presented her opinions as the final word on certain subjects. She would ask for clarity about something, when you replied, she abruptly shot down your comments. You just do not ask someone to clarify, then immediately hush them up because they are stating what you dont want to hear. If a person can not listen to a response, why would they ask for clarity.
We had to apologize to many times for things that we did not do or say. It was the only way to keep the peace with our N. Well, you did not do anything wrong, so I refuse to believe that an apology is necessary from you.
I do not know you nor do I know Sand. What I do know is that right is right and wrong is wrong. I chose to speak out. I have no regrets about what I said, I will not agree to accept this type of behavior from anyone. I felt so helpless not being able to speak out with my xN. I refuse to regress back to that. Sand has her right to voice her opinion, but dang, we also have that right as well.
I spoke out because it appeared to me you had to justify every word you said in order to explain something she perceived in the wrong manner. Every post of yours was a result of something she had twisted from a prior post.
I am glad that you are at the point in your recovery process that you did not allow this incident to make you feel you were responsible for all of this happening. Being a mature adult means that you have to learn to take responsibility for your own actions, not everyone elses just to keep the peace. Sand acted in a very immature manner. I have had enough of people trying to make others responsible for everything. I am on to more peaceful days in my life. Speaking my opinion once again proves to me that I feel worthy enough to do so. I feel I deserve to speak my mind, just as you, hope, and Sand all do. But ya have to be willing to also listen to others, she just didnt feel we were saying the right things. She was wrong. But I wont sit around and wait for an apology. Been there done that, it didnt happen.
Mindy
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I know that some of you N partners are reading this, and nobody is going to bat for us.
I'm at a bit of a disadvantage because I missed the whole beginning of this, but I've already made a second post and sent a second email to Sandahl.
Please don't misunderstand me, I really don't know any of you personally, so it's hard for me to go to bat for specific people, plus the fact that I'm so new on that board, I really haven't even gotten the atmosphere yet.
I did, however post the mission statement, and in her reply, she twisted the words to mean something else entirely. That was one of the things I brought up in my second post. Also, the mission statement page has been changed, and specifically mentions "managers" not being subject to attack (also all the regular members).
There were a couple of questions I asked that I'm interested in seeing if she answers. One big issue I have is, I don't know how that board was before, but since I'm so new, it just doesn't seem like a safe, secure, tolerant, comfortable place to talk about the things we need to talk about. I'd feel very uncomfortable posting anything more personal than I have already, which wasn't much.
Sorry I couldn't go to bat for each of you individually. From what I understand, I can see your point, and considering what I posted there, I cannot see hers.
Best of luck to you all, hope I'll get to know you better over here, I haven't done much posting here, either, but I really love this board!
bobbie
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Thank you for your support. I think that you made our point. If the information would have been out there for all to assess, Sandahl would have been found to be in the wrong. There are some real power issues here.
My bet is that she erases your thread. It seems to be her pattern. :shock:
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Jaded/Mindy,
Thanks. I'm grateful that you saw how unfair and hostile Sand was. That's what I saw, too. I knew that saying anything to her was futile; she has posted in the past that she doesn't tolerate dissent of any kind. She could use a reality-check.
I'm glad we can be together here.
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Bobby, I really appreciated your posts, your voice in the wilderness so to speak in Sandahl's "to those with complaints" post.
Congradulations to all emancipated from the latest fantasy land field trip.
Proud to say I am no longer a "member" of the Sandahl board.
NPartners is also an apt name for the collusion going on there and the denial of the Nism lurking in us all.
I just reread Sandahl's post and saw the "3 people have been removed from membership...not banned...removed" At least she isn't lying afterall. Now I feel that everyone at the old site who reads that thread has more than enough information if and when they are ready to see what is in front of them - word salad it is called. (do a search on this site if you are not familiar with that term and want to learn more) Now I don't even care to go back to the site to alert anyone who has read that thread. They have all they need to know if they want to see it or are capable. For those who haven't read Sandahl's posts and are continuing unawares...I still believe there are signs and I feel for them - I hadn't interacted with Sandahl much if at all and didn't know she was the manager when I asked "who decides when a thread has served its purpose?". I don't know if I would have picked up on her potential or how realized it was. Anyway for anyone who has read the "to those with compliants thread" there is nothing subtle about what she is doing. In this instance it appears to me anyone reading that and sticking around needs an authority figure and to belong more than they need a healthier, freer environment to belong to. How can they defend us if they can't at least see the problem? We of all peoples have the experience to understand that.
I understand and I'm so OUTTA THERE!
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Gee, banned vs. removed. If it is involuntary, is there a difference? :twisted:
I kind of like this place. I can finally use the cute emoticions.
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P.S. Bobbie
love what you wrote Why do I look at everyone else, and expect to see me reflected in their eyes?
. (this and Hope's signature about "fool me twice" are big flags to me that you both focus on accepting responsibility & the concomitant power that can bring. COOL)
(What a concept - flags that signal good things. I am weary of scanning the horizon for creepy flags. Maybe the more we face our fears the less our lives become focused on them. Ok, getting way deep and I haven't had breakfast yet. )
Ok, back to your quote....Yeah, especially the expect part! I have a greeting card that I bought because of the picture. I bought it when I was in my early 20s. I had a clue and yet I am taking forever to solve the mystery! Anyway the picture is of a maiden/princess who is standing next to a man, knight, in shinning armor. Nothing new there right? AND she is peering at her own reflection in his armor. Wow, time to bring that out of storage.
The movie Being John Malkovich, if I recall correctly (it has been a while since I saw it) was so very much about that very topic.
I will be renting it again as it was odd and brilliant i felt and perhaps spoke both to the empathy that sort of reflection and vicarious expansion of experience "reflection" can be or the emotional cannibalism - used to hoard or share power.
"Mirror mirror, on the wall.....whose the bestest of them all?" (my slight paraphrasing going on there with bestest) What implosion that fairy tale illustrated.
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Bobbie,
Thank you for being supportive of us. I have no regrets about anything I said. I feel I pretty much hit it right on when I said she demonstrated N actions. You can sit back and look at all of the actions of some of the people on the board right now and ya just have to think that is what we looked like when we had to deal with our N. I am serious and I want to point out WTF I am talking about in case any of them are needing help recognising her N actions.
*She comes on strong, they avoid further conflict and just realise it is easier to agree then disagree.
*Some are trying to tip toe around and lighten up the mood by purposely avoiding this conflict. It reminds me of "if you can't beat them it is easier to just join them" Ya, alrighty then, well not me, no more of that crap.
*Sand basically dismissed everyone elses words because by gosh, she said end it and she will be damned if she will continue to talk about it. Well ya know what, to me that doesnt demonstrate strength and leadership, that demonstrates someone who feels they are weak and in order to feel strength again, they have to act like their word is the gospel. Leadership, nah that is dictatorship. Oh ya, after what I have been through, that is just the place I am trying to avoid.
*Narcissistic people will generally seek outside sources if they feel they cant win the battle alone. Sand took about an hour to figure her strategy out, did you notice the board was still for awhile, then she made her attack on those who injured her righteousness by seeking those on the post for backup. Well, only thing I can say about that. Did you ever get into a fight with someone in elementary school at recess? You were so mad angry at them you tried to make all of your other friends mad at them too so they would play with you and not the person you were angry with. Sand acted no different then a child who has to gather her friends in a rally to assure they all dismiss who dismissed her. Goody Goody Gum Drops, I will be a real big person here and say, coolio she won, ya we lost, congratulations. NOT, I have been dealing with this childish chit for 2 yrs, tired of it, hell I didnt lose, I forfeited.
There are so many other things that she did or did not do that assures me that I spoke it loud for the right reasons. I backed hope up, because ya know, Hope was right all, and so was herm. If others do not feel the same about it, then thats fine, that is their opinion and I respect their opinion. I dont always have to be right. If I am wrong, help me see why I am. You will not get a fight from me, you will only get respect. I didnt see any of this happening folks. Nobody came out to say how her reactions did not mirror that of a N.
Mindy
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Now, this is livin...out loud!
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I really want as a group of people to openly and freely discuss the events that occurred not to obsessive over it, but to try to get a better understanding of resolving conflict. I just wanted to say this in case there are people out there lurking that feel that we are feeding this frenzy.
I just really cannot accept the fact that all of Sands incriminating statements were removed, yet she left the replies posted to her initial command. When Herms post was deleted, the entire thing was deleted. Why was Herms dismissed, yet Sand kept her SUPPORTIVE replies on the board. I didnt see Herms SUPPORTIVE replies left. But then again, it would not have been in Sands best interest to do that would it? See where I am going with this?
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ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALRIGHT... :?
If you all are so "happy to be outta there"..why the heck do you care if anyone goes to bat for you? I dont get it.
I never saw Sandahl as being a Narcissist, I think this is pure paranoia on your parts. Yes there was a "scuffle"...but most of the rest of us are going on and making light because in all reality of lifes shit that's thrown at ya, is it that damn important that you had an argument with Sandahl?? Why do you need everyone on that board to side with you, if you are happy you are gone then just be gone, have a good life as Sand would say (haha only joking I swear!)......
Im not meaning to be rude to you , really I'm not it's just that I've seen both sides and yes I can see where Sand was wrong about some things, although I think it was pretty insignificant stuff girls. I dont know why you made such a big deal out of it demanding that she do this and do that.
I agree that those posts should have been left up for awhile but Sand had her reasons for not doing it and I'm sure it wasnt just to piss you off. Even so, I do NOT see her as any kind of "dictator" as you have said here and until I do, I will remain there with levity in my spirit. I have been through too much hell with my N to want to argue this, I dont feel it's a big enough issue to warrant any type of argument. Good luck and stay well. Nike
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Nike,
Like I have stated numerous times, everyone has their right to their opinion, right? I respect your opinion because it is yours, and you should respect my opinion because it is mine. Problem I have with this ordeal, I will be very frank when I say this too, I dont like watching someone get run over because their opinion doesnt jive with anothers. I witnessed this, spoke my opinion, as did everyone else who had the RIGHT to. But ya know, I just have a thing about the kicking us off of there, putting us in the place where we can not comment on anything she states, and I dont really care to have to defend myself AGAIN after the chit we all have been through.
Like I said, communication takes two people, that does include the sender and the receiver. Now you sit there and tell me that Sand listened to what everyone had to say? Nah, hell if I didnt know better, little ole me would swear this was Sand. Oh by the way Sand, you have a good life. You mentioned on that forum that you had been there many years. Hun, that is a temporary fix, I would think that true healing came when continuing to live in the past stopped. Me have a nice life, you freggin bet, I refuse to let one sided people shove their opinions up everyone elses rump.
Nike, there are always two sides to every story. It is just a shame that some people feel it is easier to go along then to disagree. Wait, isnt that traits of Nism. I know so!!!!!!!!
I promise you I am not losing any sleep over this. If anything I have gained a new found sense about what Nism can do to some people. I pride myself in knowing that it has made me remember what FALSE SELF means. Oh I remember it now, just dealt with one for 2 yrs. I will be damned if I will deal with FALSE SELF individuals that I dont even know. Good lord, another sucker punch and run kinda wimp ya being Nike. If I were you, I would have had the balls to post my REAL name, wait, perhaps that is another form of FALSE SELF!!!!!!
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Oh Nike by the way, I am also not trying to be rude or disrespecful about my reply as you stated to us, but in case you have forgotten what some actions of Nism is, let me refresh your memory.
*Unable to have empathy for others.
*Refuses to listen to anyone who appears to damage their grandiose false self.
*Aggressive when approached about false self or lies presented to others.
*Feels they have superiority over everyone else.
*Demeans supply to enhance their own thoughts of grandiosity.
*Lacks ability to apologize.
*Refuses to except responsibility for own actions, blames others for their behavior.
Oh you know silly, the list goes on and on and on. Wow, good thing I didn't see any of this going on with Sand, I would have been able to state then that she was demonstrating some of the above mentioned N traits.
You know if anyone felt I was wrong for stating that, they had every right to approach me and prove me wrong. I respect others feelings and their right to do so, but I just do not think anyone came forward and proved beyond a reasonable doubt that it was a mistake on my part. All I am seeing now is smooching of ars and zipping of lips. What the heck ever, I am a big girl, I sure in the hell can defend myself, but ya bet I will never bow down to conform either. I am very capable of giving apologies, when they are deserved. Nothing has proven to me that I am wrong on stating the N (pssst, you know). So I know I sure can move on, hope everyone else finds the same ability soon. Well actually those who cant get closure because they have spent to much time being trapped in the pain on a board, years of a board, come on. I hope they find what they are looking for, I wouldnt want to be through the healing process for years and years and yada yada.
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OH shut up Mindy it's me, Lisa.....for cryin out loud girl, although I love ya, you need to think before you speak (and accuse) sometimes. See?
We all have our share of problems and I can say that you are NOT a narcissist. If you really think that what you have been putting up with all this time from Sandahl is N...then you should have left a long time ago.
I am not leaving that forum because you and her had a disagreement is all I am saying. I dont feel like I am putting up with any crap from Sand, never have. Until this whole thing, it was very peaceful there...I love the people and I am going to have to be understanding that because of diversity, we are going to have some problems arise now and again.
I feel like you got your say in as did the others, but then again I dont know what posts were erased , I really dont know what I missed. Some things I have read since and I still dont think it's a big enough deal for me to get all bent out of shape about. PEACE baby girl :)
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PS...Im probably the biggest most rebellious little fart on these boards so dont you go saying IM any kinda ass kisser.....if something is wrong TO ME...I will state it but I will not FOLLOW you are anyone else out of a place I enjoy being just because some of you feel that you have been wronged. I'm sorry for that, I wish it were different and I wish you would all come back ....if that's ever what you want to do. Nike/Lisa
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Lisa: the problem I have with Sand's actions are exactly what Mindy pointed out. she deleted the offensive stuff she had posted, and left up her support. Anyone who came in late in the game was not able to assess for themselve what happened.
I am not asking the board to stand up to her by asking someone to "go to bat for us" I am simply asking that our side be presented.
Lisa, you are highly dependent on that board. Imagine how it would feel if you were suddenly, and without warning, banned and had your support taken away. you couldn't tell your friends how to find you. BOOM!
It isn't funny.
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Thanks for all the support for my posts, I'm glad that some of you felt I could speak for you when you weren't allowed to speak for yourselves.
At this point, tho, I think it's best for me if I kinda bow out of this...I can't keep going round and round with a person who says that what i see is not what I see.
As I posted on the other board, that's the way I grew up, that's the way I was raised, and that's the way I learned to relate to the world. No matter what I saw, if it didn't correspond with my Ndad's warped view of the world, I was not seeing what i was seeing! Does that make sense? I mean, if I said the sky was blue, and he was feeling particularly "N-ish", he'd say, NO YOU ARE WRONG, THE SKY IS GREEN AND IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN GREEN!
Circular arguments...twisted words...hidden meanings...personal agendas...I'm trying to get these things OUT of my life, not add MORE.
This isn't to say that I've changed my position. What was done (at least the part I'm aware of) was wrong, IMHO, and I feel you all have legitimate grievances.
I'm just going to do a fade for awhile. I've got too many real-life things going on (I don't mean that in a demeaning way, I know the board stuff is real life, too, but I kinda came in at the middle/end of it). I've got a 15 year old who's going into intensive outpatient treatment for substance abuse, my Ndad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, he's finally agreed (so so grudgingly) that he, my sis and I need to see his lawyer so sis and I can take over his financial/health concerns (he says, "Isn't that nice? now you girls will be able to finally get your way!"). That alone is going to be a nightmare, cause in his Alzheimer's world, he's gone thru all his important papers, bills, etc., and either shredded them or "disappeared" them...I've got some ongoing health problems, mom passed away in July and I've not even BEGUN to deal with it, it's just starting to hit me now...plus learning this "voice" stuff - all my reading material now deals with either Alz or NPD...
I'm so sorry, but I'm saturated. I was up til 8 am the other morning, just fooling around on the computer, and til 6 am this morning...can't turn my head off to get some sleep.
If I helped in any way, I'm grateful, but I hope you all understand that altho I'd like to continue, I'm outta steam...I made the choice to get into this, NONE of you ever asked me to, and I know you're not expecting me to be your "protector". From what I've read, you're all good, strong, people who are doing the work you need to do, and don't need anyone to lead you by the hand.
Thanks for your patience, and your good thoughts.
bobbie
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Nike/Lisa
We are on this board now, processing what happened on N-partners. If you want to remain on N-partners, I don't hold it against you. But let us have our feelings about N-partners.
My observation: Sand has behaved cruelly to some people. It is her privilege to do whatever she wants. But if she does, some people may say things about her that are not very flattering. It's not really going to have any affect on her, it is more for us to process feelings and work through them. Know what I mean?
Bunny/Herm
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Bobbie,
Thanks for all you've done. I'm sorry you have all this other stuff to deal with, and I hope you are going to be okay.
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I agree with Bunny that it is our time to process the pain that Sand caused us. Lisa, if you think that an appropriate response to my concerns and Mindy's concerns is "have a nice life" then you can feel good about Sandahl and N partners. A dismissive response like that is nothing short of abuse. I wouldn't feel good about going back to that site. One, I will not beg for admission and two, Sandahl is a fraud.
Bobbie has all of the correspondence between Sand and me and Mindy. you can see her conclusion. The people on the board have come to other conclusions because Sand has censured us.
Bobbie, I hope that you will let us help you through this difficult time. Those who are over here are a great group, and I think I speak for all of us by saying that you can have your voice here.
I notice that she encourages bobbie to stay on the board, but she didn't take that approach with us, or with Herm when she said she was leaving. In fact, with respect to Herm she said "I can't make anyone stay or go" and she left it at that.
Sand has biases that are obvious.
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Bobby,
I know how you feel about having your mind bent about what you see, what you say, how you said it. It is very confusing. If this helps you at all, I have never had this before in my life, and it is still as confusing to me. You really do begin to lose your ability to judge things when you have someone always telling you what you see is wrong.
Be strong and don't waver away from what you know you see. Heck, get a couple pairs of glasses and switch them every time you are doubting what you see. Ya know, if both pairs of glasses reveal the same object, then by golly it is what it is. You will lose your ever loving mind if you try to convince yourself it is something other than what you see.
I know it is so overwhelming right now. But please don't go away because of this. I got so much information from people while I was N-partners. Many people put things to me in a way that made it easier to process. Please, if you just atleast read the posts, I promise you that you will gain from both sites. Just dig through the bull and learn.
I wish you the best and I hope to see you again.
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Thanks, everyone, I knew you'd all understand. How encouraging and supportive that I'm seeing tons of empathy from all of you.
Yeah, I'll make it, everyone has problems, and many people have more than me.
I've not yet made a decision on the other board, will just lurk and read...honestly, I don't feel I have anything to contribute there anyway, and don't want to continue on with more of the same.
It's really good getting to know you all, even tho the circumstances could have been better, but...just wanted to let you know, thanks for everything!
bobbie
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Bobbie,
In defense of the N-partners board, continue to lurk there hun. There are alot of great people there who helped me. There are some there who say things in a manner that just seems to click with me. I had alot of people direct me to other places that I got alot of information from also. The world is full of conflict and I refuse to allow that tiff to undermine what I learned from some of the posts there.
Stay sweet and do not let anyone warp your sense of reality. There are good people out there and you never know when someone comes into your life what they bring to enhance yours. I try to learn something from every experience. I just lost that ability for awhile. Its comin back, thank goodness.
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You can have any thought or feeling you want Herm, I think all of you should , I never said you shouldnt. I am just upset that something like this upset the board like it has and that it wasnt handled well by either party. My whole "voice" on this whole situation has been more to the liking of "lets pick our battles" instead of immediately getting up in arms over something that you yourself didnt really want us to know much about or you would have explained your leaving better, right? But heck, you can do whatever you want and I hope that everything works out well for all of us and that we are happy no matter where we go or stay.
Hope, I didnt say for you to "have a nice life"....I dont know what you are talking about unless you are referring to what I said to you when I then obviously noted to you that I was joking....?!
I am not trying at all to urge you to more anger only to see if there would be any way you might come back to the board as well as stay here since you like it so much....but I can see that you dont want to do that so I will leave it alone. Lisa
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Bobbie,
I am so sorry about all of the problems you are having right now. I know it must be very sad as well as just a big pain in the ass with your father being in the shape he's in.
I hope things look up for you very soon and that YOU yourself start to feel better, I didnt know you werent well. The last thing you need is all this crap, huh? Take care of yourself and come back to us at NPD or stay here and talk , but please go somewhere to vent things if you need to.
I'll be thinking of you, xo Lisa
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Jaded, I haven't made any decision about the other board yet. Yes, I'm going to hang around and read and learn - you're right, it seems there are many good people there, that's what attracted me to it in the first place. I just don't think I'm in a good spot right now to decide to leave, but I'm not real comfy about contributing, either. I'll work it out, the board will go on either way, and I think it's just best for me to not make an impulsive decision.
Lisa, thanks for your concern and support. I'm really sorry, I didn't mean to turn this whole thing into "about me" - I just wanted people to know that there were reasons (in addition to me just kinda "popping up" in the midst of all this) that I felt I'd said my piece and would disappear back into the woodwork.
Like I said, no one pressured me to "go to bat", what I did was my own choice, and I know everyone understands if I step out now.
Don't worry, if I need to vent, I usually do - but sometimes I don't have the energy or the motivation. Then when I do get the energy, I usually come out with a "super-rant"! Gotta learn to modify that process a bit, I think!
I'm just feeling badly because it seemed you all felt part of a helpful community, and now some good people are "displaced" - not a good situation when people are looking for help and support.
OK - everyone try to be good to yourselves, and I'm actually going to try to get some sleep tonight.... :roll: All I can say, as an outsider looking in, is that it sounds like you've all learned a lot from this experience, and tho it wasn't a positive experience, what you've learned will benefit you.
Sweet dreams to all,
bobbie
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Bobbie,
Thanks for all you've done. I'm sorry you have all this other stuff to deal with, and I hope you are going to be okay.
Bunny (love that name) - no thanks needed, I didn't do anything but state my feelings. As for the other stuff - well, I don't know anyone who doesn't have "other stuff", it's all part of life. Sometimes I just spew...and more stuff comes out than I intend.
And thank you for your concern, I'll be ok. I mean, I have to be, right? That's my main goal in life, at this late stage, is to be as "okay" as I can be.
From what I understand, you got a pretty raw deal in all this, and I'm very sorry for that. I'd read many of your posts, and have a lot of respect and admiration for you, and it sounds like you were shoved aside like old garbage. No one should be treated that way, and I feel bad that it happened.
We all deal with the things we have to deal with, right? And I'm convinced if we all keep working at it, we'll all be much more "okay" as time goes on.
bobbie
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oh, nuts, I got signed off, too lazy to log in again.
Just noticed that at 12:35 I said i was going to sleep...now it's 3:38 and the alarm rings at 6:30!
Disclaimer: Anything I said previously that was stupid or goofy is due to chronic sleep deprivation! Yeah....that works!
bobbie
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Unbelievable! I thought I just took too long to post or something and got logged off, but when I looked at the post to bunny...well, i guess i never logged in to begin with!
sleep...sleep...sleep...
bobbie
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Lisa: the "have a nice life" is a quote of Sandahl. It was her response to both me and mindy. I thought that it was dismissive. Yes, we should pick our battles, but I happen to think (obviously) that this is one worth fighting. It is a battle against nism. It is why we are all on these boards in the first place.
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to all:
I just read Engel's post on the Npartners board. She came to my defense saying that she couldn't see what I said that was offensive, and that my tone was reasonable.
Sandahl lied. This was my private e-mail to her. I wrote this to her privately when she had kicked me off Of course, we can't read the thread because she erased it, but she said that she was trying to avert a train wreck and that she started a thread inviting us to discuss it with her privately. You judge who is offensive:
You are creating the train wreck. Obviously, nobody
> wanted to respond
> to your thread because they wanted to discuss how
> the group should be
> run among the group members, through a consensus.
This group is not up for a vote!!!
> You kicked me off without so much as an explanation.
Seems to me you hung yourself...I owe you no
explanation...you lost that when you refused to use
the proper format.
> For somebody who
> claims to care about the healing of others, how do
> you think that you
> have made me feel? Obviously, you don't care.
> I agree with Mindy. You are the N.
Your N coment alone is grounds for banning though I
only resended your membership. You owe me, and
> everybody else and
> apology for your controlling crap.
I owe you nothing!!!
> This wasn't about you to begin with, but now it is.
You all made it about me...now go have a nice life.
>
Now, this is the woman committed to helping people heal and diversity of opinion.
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Lisa,
We are picking our battles. It's a battle against a vindictive, cruel, arbitrary person (Sandahl). You may not like the way things turned out, but this is how people handle being abused.
I didn't give a reason why I was leaving because it seemed obvious to me. Others knew exactly why -- it was because Sand had become very hostile toward me. Why would I stick around for that? I also had no interest in starting a big conflict. There was a conflict anyway, because of SAND. She handled it poorly; no one else did, if you care to look at it more closely.
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Bunny,
If it was so obvious why you left, why were so many people asking, "where's Herm??" "why did Herm leave?" "Is she going to come back and talk to us about it??" It didnt seem to be very clear at all to me why you left and I dont think it was very clear to many of the people at N partners. That's ok, you can do what you want to do but I'm just saying I dont believe Sandahls "meanness" was as obvious as you say or those questions wouldnt have been asked. Personally I thought you wanted your privacy and for us NOT to know what the problem was because in your other posts about the incident at your sisters you got very mad and up and left then too..was Sand being mean to you then?
Hope,
Really I see that as normal conversation between two people who are arguing where things are starting to get heated. Add to that the fact that we are all typing our remarks and alot of things can be taken the wrong way sometimes.
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Lisa,
If it wasn't obvious to you or others, I'm sorry. It was obvious to some of the members. And the thing about my sister was also VERY obvious to me. Some members, including Sand, attacked me, said terrible things about me, my sister, and niece, and if you didn't notice that, I can't help you see it. I can't spell everything out for every person. Nor do I owe any explanation. People come and go in life. I had to leave N-partners because my safety comes first. Sand would be the first to agree with that.
If you see Sand's email to Hope as a "normal conversation" I disagree. It's not a normal conversation I would ever have.
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Lisa:
I think that the reason that some people asked about Herm was because they hadn't read the thread. First of all, not everybody reads the posts every day or all day. Second, some, including me, don't read the content of every thread or every post in every thread. Personally, I didn't read much about the N's and AA thread because it is not a topic that currently interests me. I went back and reviewed the thread when I realized that something was going on. Sand came down pretty hard on Herm, and it looked like a set-up to me because she put herms name in the title of the thread. I think that a healthy debate is just fine, and I believe that Herm could stand up for her position, but it was getting nasty. People asked about herm because they missed the posts.
Lisa, nobody is trying to change your mind here. But, your not going to change our minds either. I happen to agree with Bunny that if you think that Sand's responses were normal, I worry about your future in terms of tolerating more abuse. You suffered enough with Tammy. We spent a lot of time talking about boundaries, and we are simply establishing boundaries. Also, I don't notice you putting pressure on Sandahl to apologize to us and ask us to come back. If you are, forgive me, because you could be doing it privately.
Read Engel's post. I think she summed up my feelings. I don't know if she has been lurking here and seeing the other side, but if she hasn't she gets a lot of credit for reading between the lines. Sandahl is being self-righteous and a know-it-all. "Trust me I know what I am doing."
In any case, personally I request that you stop trying to talk me out of my feelings. It feels very discounting and disrespectful to me. I understand that you want us all to make peace, but sometimes it just doesn't happen and we go our separate ways.
Best of luck to you and I hope that you will join in on other discussions.
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You know, I sit here and I read some of the comments being made about me saying the "N" word. I have said this a million freggin times and I am going to say it one more time with the hope that whoever lurks here will know what I said and realize it is my opinion how I felt she was behaving, not yours, MINE!!
I did not call her a N, I stated she was behaving with N actions, Geesh freggin pete. I really felt it then and I am damn sure of it now. I want to show from Sands own list of some of the actions I witnessed from her on that post. Now remember folks, it is IMHO, doesnt mean it has to be yours, but I damn sure have the right to have a freggin IMHO, remember, we lost that right at one time, well I got mine back and I am going to freggin say it whether or not it agrees with IYHO, but ya know, I just do not plan on fighting my whole freggin life with people that think that THEIR HUMBLE OPINION WIPES OUT EVERYONE ELSES WHINEY WEAK OPINION.
Quoted from Sands list of 85 blah blah.
Emotional immaturity. Behavior is not age appropriate.
2. Self-centeredness. He comes first and foremost. Is insincere about real interest in other people.
3. Little if any remorse for mistakes.
7. Inability to postpose immediate gratification - what he wants, he wants now. Impulsive and demanding.
10. Tendency to project his own shortcomings on to the world about him - frequent blaming. Never at fault.
13. Gives lip service to professed values and beliefs.
16. Ability to put up a good ‘front' to impress and exploit others.
(I am seeing more of this going on right now then when I stated it in the first damn place)
18. Can ‘con' to get what he wants to meet his needs, often at the expense of others. The behavior is highly repetitious and many people are used.
19. Sees others as pawns on the chess board. Maneuvers people around for his own purposes. When done with them, they are ‘checkmated' or rejected.
20. Ready rationalization - rarely at a loss for words - twists conversation to divorce himself from responsibility. When he is trapped, he just keeps talking or changes the subject, or gets angry.
21. Incapable of maintaining genuine loyalities to any person, group, or code.
24. ‘ Chip on shoulder' attitude - cocky and arrogant.
63. Convincing. Successful at getting other people to believe in his perception of a problem. Is adamant that people side with him vs. Allow them to feel/believe differently.
68. He has to be right. He has to win. He has to look good.
69. He announces, not discusses. He tells, not asks.
84. Is not interested in problem-solving openly.
Now, whether or any anyone else agrees with this, I am stating this is what I saw from Sand that made me want to come forward and speak out about it. I didnt even post about herm. KNOW WHY??????? Because I did not have all of the facts and I had no right to put my two cents in. Perhaps that would be some good advice for anyone and everyone for that matter on the N-Partner board.
Right now all I am witnessing is alot of bad mouthing about my comment. Ya know what, if it makes ya feel better, hang me for my opinion. But grow the hell up and look around at everything and I do mean everything. I saw how Sand was becoming more hostile with herm as that one post went on. She was out of line, so if it means I kicked for speaking my mind, damn right!! I should have done it two freggin miserable years ago with my xN. That would have saved me from alot of crap, including my broken rib and the chipping away bit by bit at my FEELINGS OF HAVING THE RIGHT TO SPEAK MY MIND. Ya damn right I spoke up for what I believed to be how Sand treated Herm.
I really hope everyone who just can not get over me saying the N word realises that alot of her behavior is what triggered me to speak. I just will not allow anyone else in my lifetime to warp my sense of judgement. That includes in person and on that board. It is what it is. I do not think Sands comments to Hope were just a normal arguement. To me it screams "I am talking hope, shut the hell up and what I say goes. Now run right on along and have a long miserable life like you had while living with a N, tata hope.
But then again, that is only IMHO. Good grief, get over me saying the N action word. Its there in black and white. Geese Louise!
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Bunny,
The stuff about your sister I didnt get to read much about...I have to work during the days so I dont get to read until the evenings and by then alot had been deleted...I understood as much as I could with what limited amount of knowledge I had at that time, and I thought you just wanted it all to go away and for us not to ask any more questions about it.
That would be normal conversation to you if you were in an argument with that person. What Hope copied sounds typical of two people arguing to me.
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Amen Jaded.
Nike, then I guess you think it o.k. to say F**K OFF in an argument, because that is what she did.
Guess what, I don't want to argue with you any longer. I have different standards of what is appropriate behavior.
Gotta run.......
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Oh, by the way. That list that Sand listed was awesome if anyone hasn't had a chance to look at it. If you haven't had a chance, run over there and take a peak at it.
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Because I did not have all of the facts and I had no right to put my two cents in. Perhaps that would be some good advice for anyone and everyone for that matter on the N-Partner board.
I think you hit the nail on the head right here as far as "me". I dont suppose I know all that I thought I knew so I will bow out (this surely isnt the first time for me!) :oops:
Anyway, I'm very sorry Hope, I didnt mean to upset you...I will mind my own business. xo Lisa
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Lisa,
I can only speak for myself when I tell you that my intentions were never to change your mind about the events that took place. It just is not right how we were kicked off for voicing our feelings. I will take the crap I am getting about the N-actions Word being stated, but good grief. We have said how helpless we felt during our relationship because of way our N communicated or did not communicate with us. I saw nothing different from Sands dismissing manner to his dismissing manner. Either way you spell it, she was dismissive and I just really can not tolerate that from anyone again. How do you think Herm felt when she read Sands dismissive statements. How do you think Herm felt when Sand tried to make her look like she had less knowledge then Sand, how do you think Herm felt knowing that all the people on N-partners board read that post, well ya know, we do know Lisa. We know exactly how Herm felt at that time which led to her leaving the board. She felt belittled, stupid,like she did not have the right to speak her mind without being judged, she felt sad because she had to leave a place where she found comfort, she felt she had no voice. We know all the ways Herm felt, because we felt the same damn way because of our N partner.
I volunteered to speak up for a person I felt needed to know that there are people in this world who can show empathy and compassion and those people can also put others first before their own self, no matter what the price is.
If Herm would have been attacking Sand, I would have done the same thing for Sand. It is not a personal beef with Sand from me, it is a beef with someone who refused to consider theirself an equal to another. I want to contribute to anyone the self respect they deserve, I wish I would have done it for myself. There are good people out there who stand by their words. I am one of those people and I just can not contribute to anyone who hurts another persons self worth.
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I just read Engel's post on the Npartners board. She came to my defense saying that she couldn't see what I said that was offensive, and that my tone was reasonable.
I read that post, also, and was pretty impressed at the way good points were made in a very calm, logical manner. Then I read the reply, and was particularly struck by the part that began with this:
Ever so often 1, 2 or more come along and want to chalenge a board and its managers....
I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but is this suggesting some kind of conspiracy? To me, it just seems to be another way of putting the spotlight on ONE person - no matter how it started, it ends up being about her. The words "1, 2 or more come along..." made me wonder if she's referring to some of you who have been on the board for awhile, or newbies....
Well, that board seems to have moved on - it's too bad the displaced people are still dealing with the aftermath....I wish it could have been worked out differently, for all your sakes.
bobbie
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What Sand does isn't "normal arguing." It's mean and it is narcissistic as all get-out. Lisa, if you don't see this, that's your prerogative. But you are coming up with trivial arguments and expecting others to be convinced. You also ask others to visit N-partners after being abused there. It's not healthy to return to an abusive place. And it's not going to happen because we see the situation differently, and, in my view, more accurately.
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Jaded,
Don't worry, you didn't do anything wrong.
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Either way you spell it, she was dismissive and I just really can not tolerate that from anyone again. How do you think Herm felt when she read Sands dismissive statements. How do you think Herm felt when Sand tried to make her look like she had less knowledge then Sand, how do you think Herm felt knowing that all the people on N-partners board read that post, well ya know, we do know Lisa. We know exactly how Herm felt at that time which led to her leaving the board. She felt belittled, stupid,like she did not have the right to speak her mind without being judged, she felt sad because she had to leave a place where she found comfort, she felt she had no voice. We know all the ways Herm felt, because we felt the same damn way because of our N partner.
BRAVO, Jaded! Your entire post was very powerful, but I picked out the parts that hit me the hardest. I don't know Herm/bunny, so I hope she will forgive me for talking about her, but Jaded, what you said about how she must have felt - OMG! To search for help, and be attacked in the place that seems like a safe harbor? And the attack is exactly the same kind you're trying to get away from? That would be like an abused wife going to a battered women's shelter for safety, but they leave the door wide open and call the husband up to invite him over.
... I want to contribute to anyone the self respect they deserve, I wish I would have done it for myself. There are good people out there who stand by their words. I am one of those people and I just can not contribute to anyone who hurts another persons self worth.
Talk about empathy! It's so obvious that you've gone thru some hell, but you've really worked on yourself so that never happens again, and you're compassionate enough that it hurts and angers you when you see that kind of hell happen to others. And it's so obvious that you're one of the good people who stand by their words.
I admire you very much, for starting your journey and fighting it thru. I also respect you for being vocal about your feelings on injustices like this, and for taking responsibility for your own words. I like that - in my perception, you're saying "I saw this, it is wrong, here's why it's wrong, I will not accept that behavior, and I won't hide behind twisted words. These are my feelings, my words, I OWN them!" Please correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation, that's just the feeling I'm getting from your posts.
More honesty, less word games...might have prevented or helped solve the whole situation.
bobbie
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What Sand does isn't "normal arguing." It's mean and it is narcissistic as all get-out. Lisa, if you don't see this, that's your prerogative. But you are coming up with trivial arguments and expecting others to be convinced. You also ask others to visit N-partners after being abused there. It's not healthy to return to an abusive place. And it's not going to happen because we see the situation differently, and, in my view, more accurately.
Look Herm or Bunny or whoever you are, I"m not here to argue with anyone! I'm just trying to understand what went wrong on MY forum and if you dont like that I'm sorry. Alot of people left that I truly liked alot and I wanted to know why. I could also sense that I was misunderstanding some things and I wanted to be more accurate about my understanding of these things...isnt this what you all are preaching over here? So now you've made me mad. Dont try to take away MY voice either. I'll also ask who the hell I want to return to a board they once loved and that I participate in if I want. I told them POSTS AGO, that I wasnt going to ask them that again and I havent.
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Hello everyone,
I have not visited the site that has been discussed in this thread because I am not involved with an Npartner but I must add this: Whatever this place is that has caused you all so much grief and anger is obviously not a safe place for healing. I don't know if this "Sandahl" is a professional, but I would say that if more than one of you is feeling hurt, betrayed, confused, angry or frustrated, you have most likely been "N'd".
If I may be so bold, my suggestion? Forget about that website, you are safe and cared about here. Time to get on with your healing.
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If I may be so bold, my suggestion? Forget about that website, you are safe and cared about here. Time to get on with your healing.
CC, I have the same feeling about this board, and thanks for your concern for the people who were displaced from the other board. I had just joined a short while ago, and didn't catch the beginning of what happened, but the results didn't leave me with the safe feeling I have always had here. Even tho I don't post a lot, when I do, there's always someone right there to commiserate w/me, give some advice or something that worked from their own experience, and just make me not feel so defective and alone.
This is a great group of caring people.
bobbie
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In case I wasn't clear in my earlier posts.....I WAS TAKEN OFF THE SANDAHL BOARD WITHOUT ANY WARNING. I made no N references! I didn't swear. (Frankly I don't feel either are grounds for cutting of public discussion ESPECIALLY in these forums.) I couldn't quite believe what was happening between Sandahl and I never mind anyone else. I have read and reread all correspondence between Sandahl and myself and am convinced that YOU are most certainly behaving in very unhealthy ways Lisa.
I believe you lied when you denied what you said to Hope. I don't know but I believe you did because what Hope said you said looks very consistent with your behavior and what you wrote to me! I believe you don't see it yourself because you are doing a half arsed job of hiding it. You haven't lied directly that I know of about my communication with you as all you wrote to my knowledge was that I was part of a group that needed to calm down. You are hiding so much and involving the relationship of others in your unilateral power move.
When I said "at least sandahl wasn't lying" what I meant was you (Lisa aka Sandahl, right?) didn't go on letting others on the site believe we left on our own.
I too believe you have been acting in ways totally in keeping with your own definition of narcissistic behavior and I am begining to wonder if you aren't just loving this attention you are getting Lisa (makes weakness feel powerful to read all this?) instead of dealing with THE ISSUE.
I know I, like all other human beings, have the capacity for narcissistic behavior. As soon as you claim to be above it all you are out of it, in my not so humble opinion.
Acappella (was my name at the Sandahl forum - posing loosely as the NPartner site)
Echo
P.S. I didn't check my spelling - this is about content and connection NOT perfectionism. If anything is ever not clear in any of my communication and you want clarity let me know OF COURSE. Duahh.
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Hi CC,
respectfully, THIS IS PART OF MY HEALING. My empathy and general observational skill says I am not alone in that feeling/experience.
I have been resentful at the time "it" is taking (I am taking the time though, not some mysterious "it") AND this is exactly the work I have to do go grow. I am lucky to have the time to deal with this to this extent. I will move on when I have exchanged what I need to. I have avoided this sort of thing in the past and then not learned. I am learning from what others are expressing here too.
This will end when we have resolved it and not before unless something external decides first and then we will do this elsewhere. As we were silenced at the other site this is about, in part, having our say. If Richard Grossman is running out of board space or we are causing someone difficulty they can let us know. Or not. Their choice. (Duh, enough with the reminding of the obvious individual choice, opinion etc.)
Thanks though. I appreciate your apparently noticing how damned hard this all is to deal with.
It is like an emotional marathon. There is a finish line and we are working very hard to get there without short cuts. Some will finish sooner than others some won't even get in the race and for some folks I realize it just isn't relevant. Not all posts are to everyone.
This is helping me understand how to deal with relationships, how to pick them and to NOTICE WORD SALAD and what I do still to set myself up for being treated unfairly and how I deal with it when it happens. I am learning what qualities I want in a friend not just what to avoid. The courage expressed here and the willingness to struggle for growth is nothing sort of admirable and sort of beautiful in my eyes.
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CC,
Your post meant alot to me in many ways. First of all you summed it up perfectly. It obviously was not a safe place and I am sad about that because I truly felt it was. I will not live the rest of my life comparing everyone or everything to Nism, but just freshly out of a N relationship, safe was something that I was looking for.
Thank you for welcoming us here and I am sorry we had to come in with a bang. I just really feel that understanding the dynamics of conflict is a good thing to have. When you have a conflict and walk away feeling it added insult to injury it just takes time to get a clear view of the event.
I have never seen this before on a board and quite frankly if I ever see it again, I am outta there with my lips zipped. Not that I regret defending what I perceived to happen, I wouldnt change a thing. Next time however I will take it up in private with that person. That way words cant get twisted and we all know how that feels. HUh?
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Nike,
I have just read the post in which you stated:
ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALRIGHT...
If you all are so "happy to be outta there"..why the heck do you care if anyone goes to bat for you? I dont get it
is that a lack of empathy I detect? How could you not understand wanting to be cared about by others with whom you bonded unless you just don't risk really bonding in the first place.
It is hard enough for those of us going through this so I can't imagine why someone who isn't involved would take precious time to post as you have.
What is your interest in all of this?
ECHO (in case I got logged out/timed out)
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I will forget about that site and i haven't yet.
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In case I wasn't clear in my earlier posts.....I WAS TAKEN OFF THE SANDAHL BOARD WITHOUT ANY WARNING. I made no N references! I didn't swear. (Frankly I don't feel either are grounds for cutting of public discussion ESPECIALLY in these forums.) I couldn't quite believe what was happening between Sandahl and I never mind anyone else. I have read and reread all correspondence between Sandahl and myself and am convinced that YOU are most certainly behaving in very unhealthy ways Lisa.
And I just read my earlier post, I wasn't clear enough.
THAT WAS ME ECHO as guest in the post i just quoted here (was Acappella on other site)
Nike is Lisa is Sandahl, correct?
I might trust you Sandahl if you could have this discussion on YOUR OWN (as you pointed out) site. I hope you finding healing.
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P.S.
CC, it is "obvious" to you and it obviously wasn't and isn't for others. AND, how it happened is so important and sharing it is what this is all about.
Jaded, I feel sad when you appologize about this thread. "come in with a bang" so what? what bang?
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Nike,
I have just read the post in which you stated:
Quote:
ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALRIGHT...
If you all are so "happy to be outta there"..why the heck do you care if anyone goes to bat for you? I dont get it
is that a lack of empathy I detect? How could you not understand wanting to be cared about by others with whom you bonded unless you just don't risk really bonding in the first place.
No "MISS PARANOID"....that's a bonafide question. You come on here accusing me of being Sandahl, hiding behind a facade and you know nothing about me, I have only seen the name Accapella on the NPartner board a handful of times so for you to question my integrity, when the others Mindy, Hope and Hermione, know full well who I am and what I stand for. I am only trying to better understand why my friends left, I didnt get to read what happened. I WAS AT WORK. This might sound a bit awful but we didnt really have any problems at the N board until you appeared...perhaps it is purely coincidence, perhaps not, I"m not really sure anymore.....I dont want to hear any more from you about me when you dont even know me, if you want to nicely ask me a question , shoot...I'll answer anything but dont even start to get hateful with me.
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As for Sandahl or whatever ...Nike, Lisa Grand Po Bah, etc.....
If you would deal with your feelings in this thread I could respond to you.
Instead you write about people falling in love with a site! A SITE? It is people I connected with not this site, your site, or any other site. People and their FEELINGS, right or wrong. Feelings are neither right nor wrong. Until you have them and own them what are you but a pawn in your own game?
I learned about your image and how important control is to you. I learned nothing else about you because I didn't read anything else from you.
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Wow. You are doing my work for me. Whomever you are.
You are right I don't know anything about you but what you post here.
This is classic though and I am glad it is in print.
Worth billions of dollars and years of therapy. Wow.
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CC thank you for your support.
Lisa: I said this to your privately, but I think the others should understand as well. Your post on this board made reference to the "have a nice life" comment and you said that YOU said it. It was confusing. Obviously, you thought I was confused and you said that to me. I was referring to sandahl of course. Originally, I read your post and thoought you were Sandahl. Then I saw that you signed your name and I knew who it was. Echo wasn't around long enough to know all the players and their stories.
Finally, everyone should know that you posted a thread on the other board saying that your board was better off without us. You make some accusations which are exaggerated and don't apply to me. Please don't try to be my friend, ask me to come back, and then turn on me like that. I am responsible for what I say, not for what Mindy, Echo, Bunny or Bobbie say. Please don't lump us together.
Having said all that, your thread does make me wonder. I don't really feel that I can trust you with my feelings.
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No "MISS PARANOID"....that's a bonafide question. You come on here accusing me of being Sandahl, hiding behind a facade and you know nothing about me.........I'll answer anything but dont even start to get hateful with me.
Just an observation here - no one likes to be accused of negative things, especially if they're innocent, and no one likes to be called names. I don't believe it's constructive to respond to an accusation using an attack with a derogatory, sarcastic name. I'd suggest if you object to the accusation, respond to that issue, but drop the name-calling. I can understand your emotion resulting from an accusation, but by not controlling it, it's pretty obvious this is going to escalate into a plain old bitch-session like the one that just happened, and I thought everyone wanted to avoid a repeat of that.
Nike, your offer to answer "anything" was great - if the questions are put in a civil way that doesn't discount anyone, and the answers are not aggressively defensive, a dialog could get going that might resolve the problem. However, I find it a bit amusing that you say "don't even start to get hateful with me" when you start your post with "no 'MISS PARANOID' " Does that make any sense?
On the other board, I think it was Sandahl herself who suggested not replying immediately to a post that gets the high emotions going. I think that's a good idea, to wait a while and calm down, but I've also been guilty many, many times of immediate, impulsive replies.
Well, we can always keep on working...
bobbie
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sorry, the post about accusations and name-calling was me, bobbie. i must have gotten timed out.
i've been having so much trouble logging in and staying logged in on this board. i just tried to log in 6 times to make this post, and my username shows up on the index page as being logged in, but when i try to post, the board keeps telling me to log in.
don't know what i'm doing wrong, maybe it's just my computer being uncooperative. anyway, i just wanted to identify my previous post, to avoid misunderstanding.
bobbe
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Well ECho, thank you for finally asking me ....
I have been posting at the other board for about 3 months, and I THOUGHT, I had made a few good friends there that I truly enjoyed talking with online in the forum so I was concerned (maybe overly) when they left. YOU have only been there a few times....besides the fact that you just oddly happened to be there when things went south...what is your interest in all this???
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Instead you write about people falling in love with a site! A SITE? It is people I connected with not this site, your site, or any other site.
I wrote about people falling in love with a SITE??? I DID?? When? where?
Heyyyyy, is this Tammy?!
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Echo wasn't around long enough to know all the players and their stories.
Then why is she posting like a maniac about something she knows not much about? (I suppose I'm doing the same thing here!)
I am going to quit this! My intentions were pure, now I'm not so sure because I am hurt and mad. I will say this, I will not just sit here and allow myself to get trashed, I will defend myself.
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Having said all that, your thread does make me wonder. I don't really feel that I can trust you with my feelings.
I"m sorry Hope...what I meant by that title is that we are ALL better off...you dont like any of us much anymore, I'm just trying to be helpful in a big intrusive way...I"m sorry that you feel that way about me now.
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Lisa,
You have every right to defend yourself when you feel you are being attacked. That is something that I am not understanding about the other site. I do not have that right to defend myself or anything that anyone is saying about me.
I realised it was you when you told me to shut up, it is Lisa. I then approached you as Lisa, not as Sands mini me. I now know it was you because you clairified that to me Lisa, and ya what, I listened to you. I will only speak in a first person form here, I am going to speak about I, I am not going to speak We.
I would have loved to have the oportunity to let my side be heard. I would like to be able to talk through my issues with anyone who cares to, I do not have a beef with anyone personally, I just know that I will not watch someone I do not even know treat anyone like I felt I had been treated during my relationship. I came to the aid of someone I perceived would be feeling as chitty as I did during my treatment by my x.
I said to you that I appreciate people who speak their mind, I admire that. I also respect people who stand up for people no matter what the cost. I would have done it for anyone, it just didnt have to be herm. I am really worn out trying to defend myself. I have had way to much of that in the past two years, yet I still feel I have to continue because of this ordeal. I am not always right, but I am not always wrong either. I am human and I make mistakes. But I am also a good person who admits when I am wrong. I am not convinced that I was wrong. I am actually thinking I was right to not be in a place I felt was safe, later to learn it probably wasn't safe at all. Well, as long as I conformed to others thoughts it was safe, the minute mine didnt jive with one persons, I knew I was in another situation that my voice did not matter.
As far as the problems go on the other site. I really do not think you or anyone else can list one time I created a problem. I never attacked anything anyone said, and I tried to be very supportive when I felt someone needed support. I have the ability to be a soft gal, but I must really be thankful that I kept my ability to be a tough chick too. That is how I survived my ordeal with the N. I just can not let go of that side of me and I know you are the same way. We are survivors, all of us have to be to get through this.
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Bobbe,
about being logged in or not - that happens on this site. It times out and I haven't found a way to detect if I am really logged in - as you noted it still can have your name next to 'Log out' and yet you are no longer logged in.
I emailed the moderator/manager here, R Grossman, and he acknowledged the difficulty that situation poses and yet it is a technical constraint. I tried the preview button and it does help with previewing code use results/formatting but it didnt indicate if I was still logged in or not. You can check auto login but then anyone who uses your computer will get auto logged in also. And, I have heard that it stores info in the computer that can confuse other sites etc - a bank site I've logged into on line told me that.
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Youre absolutey right Mindy, I'm sorry you are stressed about this as I am too....heck even a broken watch is right at least once a day, huh?
Love ya, it's ok...I miss you and hope and herm and I have no beefs with any of you....I was only trying to better understand the situation.
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If your feelings were hurt go ahead and say so if you want me to respond to that, including if you want me to apologize, for example. Meanwhile, I’ll just address what was said.
Yes I can be paranoid. Also, had I imagined that Sandahl would have deleted posts in such an odd fashion and especially had I thought about a manager of a site called NPartners kicking people off like she did I would have felt paranoid for having such a thought. Now I am realizing I was naive. It is all a continuum.
I asked questions and did not feel I was accusing you. I’ll keep it in mind as I read over these posts again. Can you please be specific as to what you felt was accusatory?
By the way, a lack of empathy is not a shameful thing, in my estimation. I don't empathize with everyone, not even nearly everyone, and certainly not all the time with those I do. Who does? I don’t expect you to.
As far as identities, for all any of us know there could be someone with multiple personalities posting or people posting under all sorts of pretense etc. Not knowing for sure is the reality of this media's limitations and human limits too (such as time to read all of this, a desire to belong etc.) I don't pretend (especially not so much now) to know who exactly I am dealing with unless I have paid attention and even then it takes a lot of time to know someone. I am learning that again and again and again,each time with a bit more nuance, detail etc. If I waited until I knew everything and was sure I was right I would still be in bed – heck I’d still be in my crib.
Yes I may have confused you lisa Blondish 2002 with Sandahl etc. In part I did so because I felt I noticed a similar, very similar, tone. By the way I don't think Sandahl is some sort of evil person anyway. I am angry at her behavior and I don't trust her.
This might sound a bit awful but we didnt really have any problems at the N board until you appeared
It sounds laughable to me. I am just not that powerful. No human is.
P.S. a broken watch is right twice a day.
Echo
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A broken watch is right atleast one time a day, heehee, now that is funny. Guess I never thought about it, it actually is right just once a day. See lisa, learn something new everyday.
Now I am really mad at someone on here, I just broke one of my fingernails typing this.
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I am learning that again and again and again,each time with a bit more nuance, detail etc. If I waited until I knew everything and was sure I was right I would still be in bed – heck I’d still be in my crib.
Heehee this is funny too. Thank you girls, you freggin made me laugh. Not one time, two. Hells bells, who would a thunk it?
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page 5 of this thread,
I'll also ask who the hell I want to return to a board they once loved and that I participate in if I want. I told them POSTS AGO, that I wasnt going to ask them that again and I havent.
understand what went wrong on MY forum
That sounds like Sandahl to me Nike. Can you understand how I might feel that was written by Sandahl?
I don't feel offended if or when someone says they feel I acted narcissistic or whatever, paranoid even (can you imagine?). Especially someone I am not connected with. I could be disapointed in myself or what I percieve to be the other persons lack of knowledge of me. A lot depends on my level of connection with the other person. Frankly that is one of the built in boundaries and safety mechanisms here in internet land. It is far more condusive an environment for taking time to build connections and listening very very carefully to what is being written.
Honestly, I cannot claim to care for anyone on this board or any other board beyond a very limited version of caring. I don't really know any of you beyond what you have written and my recollection of what was written and my interpretation of what was written, nor you me. Lets be real here.
I am just begining to form some more solid feelings about some folks who post here and I am more prepared than ever to be wrong.
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Look Herm or Bunny or whoever you are, I"m not here to argue with anyone! I'm just trying to understand what went wrong on MY forum and if you dont like that I'm sorry. Alot of people left that I truly liked alot and I wanted to know why.
Here is the lowdown:
(1) Sand attacked me personally in some posts. I felt unsafe, that I had to leave immediately. I said a brief goodbye post so people wouldn't think I had died. That was all I felt I could do, or had to do. There was no private conversation between me and Sandahl.
(2) As a result, some people shared their feelings about my leaving, or the way the group was run, and Sand banned them or kicked them off the group. She also erased a number of explanatory posts so people did not know what was going on, because she felt the posts criticized her.
(3) Some of us were notified through various ways that this group was available for processing our feelings. That's what we're doing.
I guess you are upset about the disruption on N-partners, that it was a nice place until "this" happened, and you are upset and angry about it. That is a shame, I agree, but things change in life.
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see I fell for an image...
a broken watch LOOKS right twice a day.
I was wrong, I was wrong, I was wrong. Cut my membership now before all hell breaks loose! :wink:
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Echo: I hope that you mean from there, not here. You are a valuable voice. This will blow over soon.
My guess is that Nike is going back to Npartners and we can finish processing an move on.
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Wow Echo, who wrote those? See what I mean? Geesh if you attack someones character, you have to be able to stand like a man and take it back. I am sorry to know that some are writing gumbo about us, but I actually do not give a hoot what they think of me. Know why? With friends like that, who in the heck needs enemies.
I am not saying I want anyone to come to my defense. That does also include I do not want them attacking me once I am gone. It reminds me of my aunt. Kissy Kissy to anyones face, the minute you walk out the door, she is jabbin about them. I like to stay away from aunt, I will stay away from anyone like that for all that matters.
I also wanted to ask who made the comment that they were better off with us gone? Owie, that one was a stinger. The sad thing about it, I cant recall any of us creating any problems there. If we did, sure were not informed of it. But then again I didnt think I did anything wrong with my N the whole time he was treating me like a dumpster he continually dumped his trash into. Well then I guess if they feel better off without us there, nobody there got anything from our postsand they aint a gonna miss out on anything, huh??
Maybe that helps me understand even further that it doesnt matter how many friends you have to describe your wealth. You could have just one friend and be wealthier than one who has 100. Depends on the level of sincerity of the friends. That one friend could be more trustworthy then the other 100 put together could be.
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Jaded,
You're right. No one did anything on N-partners to deserve being kicked off.
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Thanks Hope,
that is one of the beauties of this site, so far, relatively speaking. Whatever R. Grossman's interest in this site is I don't think deleting voices is one of them.
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OMG Echo,
LOL, you are right, a broken watch is right 2 times a day. LOL, geese louise. I swear some times I wonder about myself.
Echo you might be doubting alot of people right now because of this incident. Time will tell hun who speaks in tongue from those who speak the truth. I could sit here and tell you until the cows come home that I am a truthful person. Doesnt mean I am. I had to learn that the hard way. But I am telling you I am a person of my word and I promise you that over time you will see that from me as well as others here.
I refuse to suspect everyone of being a damn liar liar pants on fire. But it sure does make you walk a little slower towards someone, doesnt it?
Lets not lose faith in everyone just because we are disapointed in a few. I will not live my life with doubt about everyones character, but I will be damned if I will live it with blinders on either. Give everyone a chance to prove their abilities to be a trusting confidant. The reward will be worth the wait.
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I thought I'd add some support to those who recently were removed from n-partners by sand. I joined n-partners the same month sand did and I have watched for 2 full years now as she has moved from being member to asst. manager and then manager. I have not bothered to post over there in ages because of sand's methods. IMHO she cannot tolerate it when someone comes along who generates more than a modicum of support among the members, like herm did. It appears as though this threatens her and she eventually strikes out at them to try to undermine them (lest they usurp her lofty status ?) I saw her strike out at herm in the thread about "n's and aa", and I don't blame herm for responding the way she did. Sand was out of line. But you see, as long as sand is the manager she (and only she) is allowed to be out of line. There isn't a thing anyone can do about it - she is in charge of the delete button. There have been many valuable viewpoints lost to n-partners because of sand's behavior. The only available recourse for those valuable viewpoints is to either leave, as some here have, or stop posting, as I have, and just go on viewing the site for new people's valuable viewpoints. I generally just click past sand's posts, she has made herself someone whose viewpoints I have no use for anymore in light of her unreasonableness. You guys are right, in case it helps to hear it from another corner.
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Yes, it helps tremendously. I can't thank you enough for your support.
When I joined the group, Hermione posted frequently and, I thought, had great comments 99.9% of the time. I am sure that Sandahl felt threatened. The group began to look at Hermione as a leader. I have no problem admitting that Hermione has more technical knowledge than me. Also, she has better insight than me most of the time. therefore, i was terribly sorry to have her leave.
I hope that eventually you will join us.
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That was exactly how I felt when I read the post you are talking about. I know some people can misjudge your words or the meaning behind them, but I dont think this is the case here.
I have a morbid curiosity and go back to read the boards now and what is being said. I have compared her posts now to the ones with Herm and this is an obvious shift in her demeanor. That tells me she is either glad that herm is gone and she feels less threatened, or she is doing some woe is me to get support and sympathy for this situation.
Sometimes reinforcement comes from the least likely sources. I felt I learned alot from that site, but I also realise that I followed the right ones out of that place. Wait, should I say I was ejected with the right ones from the place. Well ya know that saying "I have been kicked out of better places than that", I think that applies with this ordeal.
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Nike,
Im not meaning to be rude to you , really I'm not it's just that I've seen both sides and yes I can see where Sand was wrong about some things, although I think it was pretty insignificant stuff girls. I dont know why you made such a big deal out of it demanding that she do this and do that.
It was Sandahl, who I got that you say you are not (nearly Dr. Suess that was) - that demanded apologies (condition of being let back into the Sandahl site) and that we calm down.
Have you seen both sides? No one else here has. It wasn't allowed.
I wanted the posts to stay and it wasn't to PROVE anyone right or wrong - only to let everyone decide for themselves what they felt with as much info as possible and to keep some integrity within a string of posts about the sadness of someone leaving and within discussions about when posts are or are not deleted.
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What was so horrible about the post about Herm leaving? I guess I have never understood that. Why did she feel that it needed to be deleted? Hope, isnt why you chose to speak out? You just simply asked why it was deleted.
Well my memory isnt the best, but if I recall, 100% was everyone stating they hated to see her go.
You know, I read that when a relationship ends with a N person. The N gets everything out of their sight that reminds them of the significant other. As if they think OUT OF SIGHT, OUT OF MIND.
Out of all of those posts that people put there about Herm leaving, how many of those people have come over to be supportive of Herm now?
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Jaded: you are right, I posted my concern because there was 100% support for herm, and I felt that the thread wasn't left up long enough for the membership to review it. That thread wasn't getting hostile. My thread did get heated.
Originally, it was my hope that if herm was lurking, she would see how much people cared about her and rethink her decision. For me, as I was seeing herm post less and less, the board wasn't the same and I was losing some enthusiasm.
I think that it is so clear and obvious that Sand wanted herm out--for whatever reason. Herm is gone, and now we have somebody even better:
BUNNY
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Guest,
It helps a lot to hear your opinion. Thanks for the validation. I hope you will keep visiting us here.
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Star started a thread on the other board saying very nice things about me and Herm:
I'm having a little trouble with the attitude about Hope and Herm being gone. Without splitting hairs about what happened & why, blah blah, what I remember is their great qualities, thinking, strength, and how helpful they were to us whenever we needed help. I'd like to think we don't discard all of that. I can't.
There are so many great people here, but they are great, too.
If you are out there lurking, I really appreciate your kind thoughts. It will be interesting to see if anybody has the guts to chime in. I think that Sand has created fear in the members of being banned.
Time for "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" Can't think about this topic much longer.
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I just checked the npartners board to see the responses to the nice thread star posted. I couldn't resist sending Sand this direct e-mail:
I assume that you are going to ban MariaTree for accusing members of Nism behavior. You are preaching that is not allowed and is a reason for banning, and she is obviously referring to some who are still members.
After all, you banned me before I ever used the N word.
I know how “fair” you are, so let’s see it?
How much do you want to bet that she will have a subtle nuance that distinguishes what mariatree said from what we did. I guess the subtle difference is that we directed our comments at Sand, and mariatree directed at us.
This is hypocrisy.
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Bobbe,
about being logged in or not - that happens on this site. It times out and I haven't found a way to detect if I am really logged in - as you noted it still can have your name next to 'Log out' and yet you are no longer logged in.
I emailed the moderator/manager here, R Grossman, and he acknowledged the difficulty that situation poses and yet it is a technical constraint. I tried the preview button....
Echo, thanks for the info. I just remembered a board a friend of mine had, the same kind as this one, and the exact same thing happened on her board.
See, I can't log in again. I logged in 4 times, looked like it was successful, but as soon as I got to the page w/your post so I could quote it, I was logged out again.
Oh, well - if that's the worst thing I ever have to deal with in my life, I'm very , very lucky, right?
:wink: :D
bobbie
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Yup bobbie, helps put things in perspective eh?
Hope, speaking of perspective...treating relationships like pieces on a chess board really is so counterproductive once you know how good a real connection can feel, right? And, I've come to realize (oh my gosh I am still growing up at 41! Yippie, means I aint dead yet for one thing.) that since I live in a world where many people may just see relationships as a maneuvering game, and I have some tendency to get unknowingly caught up in the game I best learn to spot the board and some key strategies so I can forfeit or avoid playing at all . I think you are getting some excellent forsight about what to expect. Aside from the good relationships that may come of this unfortunate event that seems to be the next biggest gain....night vision.
ECHO (Acappella on the Sandahl site aka the Npartners site)
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I am thankful to anyone at the Sandahl site who is questioning the safety there. You know who you are (in more ways than one). I feel like you are tending to a sort of social ecology that reaches beyond any single board or relationship and makes a lot of individuals feel stronger and safer too, yourself included I imagine and hope.
I am thankful because:
#1 Feeling connected and then cut off without notice or being missed or a valid avenue to reconnect hurts! The best antidote to disconnection is connection. I feel more connected seeing examples of courage and the struggle for group safety.
#2 Speaking up in a group on whom you depend is likely scary for most of us, according to posts I've read and my own experience - even without such blatant signs of danger. I appreciate the courage you have. I like being reminded that in addition to the harshness in the world there are counter balances too.
#3 It isn't only about being defended or not or any single person but about community, virtual and otherwise - a community with a social ecology - Expressing concern about the image vs. the reality of that site is about encouraging integrity and I believe that is good for us all. It just makes the world a better, safer place. I know it is good for me anyway.
THANK YOU. I won't post names here if you aren't posting here and besides you know who you are.
I don't hate anyone at the other site, I don't know them well enough to be quite that hurt and hate beyond a quick reactive feeling it just wastes my precious energy anyway. I do feel Sandahl's reaction must have been valid for whatever was going on inside her AND totally ineffective in terms of a vital level of consistency and trust in the group she claimed to "support". If that board falls apart it will be in part because of the lack of integrity and the safety that goes along with at least a basic level of integrity.
This all may seem obvious to some folks but two weeks ago it wasn't for me and seems like not for a lot of people.
I am only interested in continuing on this thread as:
#1 A way of understanding how I got myself into that and what signs were there that I missed and to start getting clearer on what I do and don't want in relationships.
#2 A reference for others at the Sandahl site (or any other board) who have unsafe experiences and want a safer alternative and to know they aren't alone in that other experience. A thread can't go on forever though.
For myself I want to explore how I got myself into that situation and if there were signs I didn't see. How does it relate to my other relationships in life? I know I attract some people with strong N tendancies and I want to better understand how it happens. I want to understand better the flags that fly both ways and the tacit contracts that get made, that I make. I'd also like to look at that with others who still have those questions for themselves or other questions or feelings about what happened. I sure do not want to be focusing on any of this any longer than necessary - I just want to turn it into awareness, specific awareness ...not "they" are everywhere and "they" are bad awareness (venting is part of the process too though). If anyone is interested in that discussion perhaps we can continue it as a smaller group? My email is on this site in the member section. I don't know how many people on the voicelessness site were involved directly or otherwise in this incident and are interested but not speaking up here. I have noticed a tremendous number of views though. I am tempted to post here my total exchange (all of which was public and short) with the manager of the other site. I dont know if it would be helpful for anyone else. I may just do it for myself....haven't decided yet.
ECHO/(aka Acappella at other site)
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Echo,
Doesn't it feel good to know that you are regaining the strength to defend yourself? I had a very interesting thought today about this ordeal. Remember the post from the other site that mentioned a member meeting her xN girlfriend before she came along? It talked about meeting and her expectations of her were not how she presented to be.
That led me into thinking about my xN talking about his xwife. He said the most horrible things about her and although some were true, I know some were false too. But I remember thinking how much he loved me and how special I was to him, blah blah blah. I just knew that he would never NEVER ever have anything that horrible to say about me.
WRONGO!! I am blah blah blah. Point to my thoughts boils down to this. Everyone there who thinks they are beyond being treated like we were, guess again. Anybody there could be next with their words twisted, actions exagerated, and their mouths covered as they are rushed to the door, in order to silence them. So basically, I thought he wouldnt dream of speaking about me like that, never thought I could ever be on my xN bash list. Ya well, I was just the next one in line, just another naive woman.
But, who the heck wants to stand in that line again. What you see is what you get, and I seen it and cant say I regret that my blinders were not on this time. I made the right decision to speak out, wish I would have done it with my xN. But ya just cant have everything now can ya??
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you say you want differing opinions but when the nike person offered opposing views.........you have attacked her
you have done nothing here other than slander sand and her board she's helped alot of people. it is a good board and good support.
hermione quit the board.thats not her fault. yet you attack her.besides the herm character gave blatantly wrong information.
you sound like a bunch of whining children because you didn't get your way. who's the n here? not sand.
my opinion...... go ahead slam me..... you know you are going to.
totw
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Hi everyone,
I've been lurking on that board for 6 months. Imo, "hermione" helped countless people work their way out of emotional chaos, providing some of the sanest, most practical advice and observations on the internet.
I have a friend who manages a resource site regarding damage inflicted on survivors by online "support" groups . . .
http://groups.msn.com/ANarcissisticPersonalityDisorderPsychoGroupOrdeal/theordeal.msnw
sandahl has much in common with femfree, imho. Their motto: Overcome the narcissists in your life by becoming one yourself.
I wish you all peace and strength on your healing journeys.
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tired of the whining,
If you don't like us, what are you doing here calling people names. What is the point. You won't convince anyone of your integrity or intelligence. Just sounds like another abuser.
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i didn't call anyone anything. i said you sounded like a bunch of whining children. do you always take offense to everything eveyrone says?
it was you who caused all of this because you couldn't take someone opposing your views. so you made this big dramatic post about leaving. then everyone attacked a good manager on a good board and she is paying the price for it.
get over it and move on. thats what most adults do.
there is a time when one must move on from victim to survivor. you were not victimized. you left because you got pissed off because someone didn't agree with you.
i'm here because i am tired of hearing sand get slammed. someone should take up for her the way you guys are carrying on.
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Guest,
thank you for the link!
And as for the becoming self imploded to deal with the self implosion of someone else....that is an excellent topic! A sucko feeling and important to note.
I noticed I was trying to fluff my feathers as big, if not bigger than a certain roster in my life. I realized that I actually must be seeing the bully's bulling as powerful or I wouldn't have been trying to compete. Caring about him was a different topic all together. Being hurt was also a separate topic from hatred and retaliation once I got that I was competing with him and that to do so I must value, percieve as strong, his tactics on some level. Even if it was just feeling it was the only option, that was a way of valuing the option. I didn't like seeing it in myself and once I did I felt instantly less reactive. That was a turning point for me and I know I can still go that way..the potential is there, the reaction still there until my alternative skills and feelings are strengthened through practise. I was beginning to practice getting mean as I was so frightened of the bullying and felt so trapped. One day I realized, "I am trying to get good at this!". Hello! No way to spend a life or a moment of it when there is an alternative.
Echo (gots to change this name)
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('Nofights' here)
Jaded and Echo
What I learned from the goings-on at N-partners was an extension of what I learned from the experience with my N. That when I see certain behaviors in another that are not acceptable, I do not try to change the other, or argue my position with them. I merely announce my position and move on. When I broke up with the N was the first time I ever broke up with someone and did not agree to any discussion of the causes, because we were obviously on 2 completely different wavelengths (little did I know . . . )
That's how I have handled the first such breakdown at n-partners (over a year ago, and repeated at least 3 times since), and I have done the same recently when an N appeared in a sports league that I belonged to. I spotted the unacceptable behavior, I announced my observations, and I moved on. I am finding it healthier and more satisfying than trying to stick around where unacceptable behavior reigns. And I don't carry lingering worry of whether I did or didn't do the right thing because I know what I saw and that is all that matters to me. That's an improvement over wondering if other's views are more 'valid' than mine, etc., which leaves one vulnerable to manipulation.
It obviously depends on what the issue is. I am not advocating 'my way or the highway'. But it has all taught me how to better identify certain issues that cannot be compromised (boundaries, I guess), and to not doubt myself on them, which hopefully makes me less of an n-target in the future. In the case of Sand, what I spotted in the first conflict was a severe double standard, and I view that as a personality trait that you cannot 'argue' someone out of, so why bother yourself with it (thus the 'nofights' handle). I stick with the generally accepted description of N-ism, and I can't say that sand has demonstrated to me that she is an N. But she has demonstrated to me enough unacceptable behavior for me to want to move on and not be affected by her positions.
There are enough times when I have no choice but to accept it, specifically in the work environment, that I will not tolerate it when I don't have to.
Hope that addresses your posts
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If you are tired of the whining then why did you bother to come to whine? I feel that your actions made you look like a whiney playground bully who can't resist a ruckus.
If you are not involved in this business why do you feel you need to put your sad excuse for two cents in? Unless you are the one these people came here to whine about, that is a thought, and if you are all I can say is they should have left alot sooner than they did.
Ladies if you give this remark a second thought it would be a second to many wasted. Take that second instead to pat yourself on the back for standing by someone being attacked by a playground bully.
I would like to also inform everyone that some times people decide if you can't beat them just join them. As some one stated there is no better way to tolerate a N then to become one yourself. That really gives you an inside view into their insanity. It appears to me that there have been some people who thought this to be true. By the looks of it they joined them.
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Ladies if you give this remark a second thought it would be a second to many wasted.
yes and I am suspecting it may be giving someone attention for the sake of attention only, negative or otherwise. Someone may be vested in keeping the tension going.
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Yo, tired so your whining, whoops that is a typo, NOT
You know what, ok say I agree with you that herm gave the wrong answers, say I agree that we are whiney bitches, say I agree that sand is a N, whoops I threw that one in there. The bottom line is this, WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOICE OUR OPINIONS, SO DO YOU, thought I would type that in bold letters so you would see it or understand it, whatever the deal is with that idiotic post of yours, I wanted that to be understood. But what we do not have the right to do is D I S R E S P E C T others, ya remember thats why we sought a board in the first place.
So no matter if I do agree with you, or do not agree with you, it does not give anyone the right to do what you just did. Thank you though, you reinforced that I did the right thing. You acted just as Sand did, I couldnt stand it then and I cant stand it now.
See the way I look at it if you arent sand you just proved why you stay there. Misery loves company. Does it make you feel smarter when you stated that about herm? Do you feel you are a wiser person now becaused of this? In my experience when someone does this they are trying to prove a point, is that yours? You are now crowned the smartest kid on the block. Goody Goody gum drops. Your post is a waste of my time. If you want to state something, why dont ya grow the heck up and talk like a big girl and make your point in a nice lady like way without the name calling and the crap you presented. But hey, its your opinion so I respect that. Besides that if herm lacks so much brain like you accused her of, she wont be able to understand it anyway so whats your point? Even if she stated something wrong, I do not remember seeing the initials behind her name that said MD. So be gone with your smack talk.
If you want to direct something at me about this, do it in private so other people do not have to waste their time wading through the crap. You just are not getting why this began are you. It was remarks just as yours listed below that made me take a step back then take great leaps to defend the person being attacked in the very exact manner that you continue to attack. These remarks are nothing less than abusive and demeaning aimed to hurt someone. Ya just gotta know when to admit you are wrong or you just have to learn when to shut up. Either way, these remarks indicate you need to do both. And I meant to state that is only IMHO. These are an attack on someone and you wonder why people get offended over silly things like these remarks. Because they have a right to, and they also have the right to not tolerate it. I wont and I am only speaking for myself. Take it private if you want to say empty crap like this below.
hermione quit the board.thats not her fault. yet you attack her.besides the herm character gave blatantly wrong information.
you sound like a bunch of whining children because you didn't get your way. who's the n here? not sand.
it was you who caused all of this because you couldn't take someone opposing your views. so you made this big dramatic post about leaving. then everyone attacked a good manager on a good board and she is paying the price for it.
get over it and move on. thats what most adults do.
Now to me it seems like you are not getting over something yourself. So act like an adult, figure out what it is do not come back until you can learn to play nice with others. You appeared rude, had nothing important to support anything that has happened so you must just wonder what your motive was. Oh ya, to defend a great leader of a great bunch of caring bunch a loveable folks. How I could have forgotten that? Silly dang me.
Run along and play, we do not want to waste our time playing with people who can not play nice. I do know someone who can play that plays just like you. It is my xN, he lives in chicago, if ya try to stand up for yourself, I must warn ya, he has a mean right hook. Look him up, I am not interested in playing the N game anymore.
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How about Sand's double standard of not banning Mariatree for calling certain posters N's on the "our friends" thread? I was banned before I told sand that I agreed with Mindy that she was the N. Sand doesn't even reprimand Mariatree. Mariatree is clearly referring to some of the banned members, but also some of the current members who have posted in our defense.
Tired of the whining sounds like you could be Sandahl yourself. But, guess what? You get to come over here and call us names and insult us, and nobody is going to ban you because you are entitled to your opinion.
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Tired of the whining,
I think you are Sandahl, but don't have the integrity to come out as yourself because this is not your personal empire.
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Nofights,
I agree that it is optimal to know one's limits and move on when necessary without explanation. That is what I attempted to do by leaving with one little goodbye post not giving specific reasons. My post would have been deleted instantly had I explained anything. However, sometimes a person has to stand up for themselves and not take a lot of crap. I try to pick my battles.
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Amen bunny!
I still have yet to understand what they feel was whiney about your goodbye post. Perhaps maybe the reason is because I think of my xN. He would have preferred I just go away and not ask any questions, not give my goodbyes to his daughter, never speak to anyone he knew again, that way it was less work for him. But ya know bunny. If I would have done that, I would have needed to evaluate myself as a person as well.
A goodbye is a goodbye. It is not an invitation to beat the bajeeby out of me, just wave goodbye and I will be gone. But you have to wonder wtf would make someone into what this has become.
Bunny when she told you that you were the one that caused this mess, she was demonstrating projection. Sound familiar?????? I went through it for 2 yrs. Maybe thats what jumped out at me bunnyherm. I listened to my gut this time, something I had been willing to let go before.
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Thanks, Jaded. I agree. I think "Tired" (aka Sand) is having some problems and is blaming me. I wonder what her followers would think if they saw her posts over here.
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Tired of the whining wrote:
you sound like a bunch of whining children because you didn't get your way. who's the n here? not sand.
Maybe there are whining children that are N but then again maybe those children are whining because of the N. Either way you look at that sentence, just because a child is whining does not mean they are N. That is only something their N parent would say to them.
Now correct me if I am wrong whine but wasnt it you that came to inform herm she was, how did you state that, oh ya, "besides the herm character gave blatantly wrong information. "
I would make sure I had my facts straight before I posted something about somebody else giving wrong information. Whiney kids does not mean they are N. Palease, when ya think you have seen it all, ya just give it a second and something tops the hell out of it. Just fagetaboutit, go eat dinner and hug your cat. I am going to hug my whiney children who are not N.
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Not a damn thing bunny. They would think exactly what they thought when she posted the last nasty bunch to you. They just do not care and ya know what I think about that, I do not care. I know one thing I do not regret having my own right to speak.
I am not saying everyone there is alike, I am only talking about the few who continue to prove me right about the N thing, you know, the horrible N word I mentioned. Hell proves I learned something after all. I knew how to spot the N behavior. Can I get a hell ya!!!!!!! Looks like I do know what to look out for when observing. I know this girl will not be a repeat offender on that N ride.
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hell ya!!!!!!!
Echo (I really am gonna change my on screen name...I have graduated).
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Woot Woot Echo we dun gradiated.
Glad to know we learned something out of this hell. We gradiated from the how to spot a N scool, wait, skuel, skoowl. however you spell it we gadiated.
Now lets remember the lessons we learn and practice what we preached we hated. You know: demeaning, dismissing, projecting,denial of own actions and words.......so on. We graduated and I dont need a dang degree to prove I learned. Proof is in our actions, not theirs.
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By the way, Engel if you are reading this board. I want to thank you for your kind words.
My divorce is getting worse. My N is becoming more and more vicious. He wants us out of the house by Dec. 31, wants all of our cars, all of the furniture, and literally says that I can leave with my clothing, jewelry and personal items. I guess he has forgotten about the holidays or that we have two children that he is booting out.
We have a motion scheduled for next week. Hopefully, he won't be successful, and we will be successful asking the Judge to amend her findings.
that's the update.
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I'm mostly a lurker on N-Partners. I read the current posts and the archives too.
First, let me tell you that the Herm person is a ***SELF-
ADMITTED*** N. If you look in the archives of N-Partners, SHE HERSELF says she is an N who has had therapy. Whoever she is referring to as being an N or having N behavior, must be a projection by her.
Too bad the archives do not have a search feature. If you want to see that, just look at when that character name joined, and go through the posts. It's a big job yes, but what I am saying is there, and it was visible in her attitude several times.
She acted like a child in leaving without even any contact to Sandahl privately, to see what was wrong and trying to sort it out first. Seriously, think carefully about it for a moment. How childish is that? This kind of abrupt behavior without even any attempt at sorting it out peacefully is exactly what drove me mad with my xN. He was offended by something he **thought** I did and we went through all of this distancing and silent treatment crap before he told me what the problem was. It was so unneccessary when he could have just come to me with clarification right away. But N's do not do that, do they? Instead, they react **first** because they have no control over their emotions.
Proof that it was more in her mind and that a talk with Sand could have put it all to rest, is her saying that it should be obvious as to why she left. Most of the people didn't have a clue. It wasn't **obvious**, it was distorted by her thinking into something bigger, therefore she figured it was as big/obvious for others too.
She also got sucky and defensive other times when people disagreed with her. I don't even know why she was there dispensing "advice" that was not even solicited. Many seemed to appreciate it and fine, but I can't figure everyone appreciated her "I am the expert" style.
As far as Sandahl, her mistake in all of this was deleting the Hermione "goodbye" post. Had she not done that, none of this would have happened. There was nothing inflammatory in that thread and it could have been left indefinately. Eventually, people would have just said "oh well, who knows what happened, but if you are out there Herm, please come back". That's it.
I'm not sure if part of it was that she didn't want people to figure out that Hermione's leaving had something to do with her. I'm not saying it is that. It was just a passing thought.
I don't know what happened with Hope because I was out and she apparantly deleted the thread right away- so I never saw it.
There are some sad losses to that group as far as I'm concerned.
Anyway, the bottom line is that Hermione characters actions contributed to this whole thing, and then Sandahl wanting to delete the thread. It all went downhill from there.
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GAAAAWDDDD....."Youre an N!.." "NO, Youre an N!" "NO, YOURE an N!!"..."UHUUU, YOURE the N!!!"....You all sound like you need something to keep you busy.
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Guest,
Let me begin by saying thank you for voicing your opinion in a manner which is appropriate. You talked civil, you offer others the chance to respond, you are not trying to force your opinion to be the gospel, and you did not come blasing in without facts to back your opinion up.
Thank you very much for behaving in a manner which states your opinion and allows others the chance to rebuttle if they wished.
I am not saying I disagree or agree with your opinion. My problem is I never got that chance. Hope posted and she made numerous valid points and I really am a strong believer that everyone has the right to voice. But ya have to also give others the respect to do the same. Not saying anyones opinion is right or wrong, it should be an option for everyone.
No matter what Herm did or did not do she chose to leave the board and she deserved the respect of others seeing the post. Now as far as what you said about the N posts, that I know nothing of so I will continue to practice what I always have. If I do not know all the facts about something, it is not my business to put my two cents in. Dunno about what you said but I respect you for presenting your opinion without a FULL Blown attack.
I am sure everyone has N traits in some form or another. I can honestly state that I am not a N, I am not capable of being a N, and I would be damned if I would be a N. The behavior sickens me and the thought of inflicting harm onto others like they do, in that manner, no can't say it appeals to me. Not even to my worst enemies could I behave that way.
I have no hard feelings for anyone on that board. I am not condoning Sands behavior but I chose to pick better things to worry about right now. I got alot of valuable information from some on that board. I will be greatful for the valuable information I learned from some on that board.
I am just sticking to people right now that give unconditional support. People who have not gave me reason to not trust them. It is actually hard to know what you can trust anymore. But I am trusting my gut feeling from this day forward. I say it is safe here for posting, and what more could ya ask for.
Best of luck to everyone on the other board. I wish them no harm, I am just ready to pick my battles by their significance. I think we have all stated our opinion. I will speak for myself when I say that I am here to get and give support which is what my intentions were at N-Partners.
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Haha guest, ya made me laugh.
I am rubber you are glue whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you.
wait what about this guest
I know you are but what am I??
Thanks for the laugh, it has been a long day. To funny!!
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Stop trying to divert attention by making it a collective thing bunny/Hermione. You know what you wrote.
It is not name calling, it is a ****FACT**** that this person said this in N-Partners. I encourge you all to search the archives. One of you will find it. You should know who you are dealing with in this forum too, don't you think?
Since I **do** have many other things to do, everything I wrote is all I will write from here on in.
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Dear Guest (aka Sand),
You have just proven that you dislike me so much that you are willing to come here anonymously and call me names and insult me. Apparently you can't rest until you have "done" something to me. Well, I did not screw up your group. I left for good reason and I had zero reason to contact you privately. I am not a prisoner, I can leave a group when I want. You seem pretty vindictive. Good luck to you.
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yeah, c'mon sand - don't you have some posts to delete or some group members to belittle?
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I just HAVE to return once more to say this because it is not fair to Sandahl.
I PROMISE YOU (though you likely won't believe it & who could blame you I guess), This is NOT Sandahl.
Think about it, why would I post about Sandahls mistake in all of this, and about not knowing about what went on with Hope?? I would have just addressed whatever happened with hope because if I was Sandahl I would have known.
Also, maybe list managers have different features and could search for a post (I have no idea). But there is a chance if I was Sandahl, I would have found the post where you say you are an N and directed people here to the link. Will you say that you didn't write that at N-Partners?
Anyway, not important. I don't expect you too. It is *there* in the archives.
I PROMISE, this is not Sandahl. I had to write again & say that to be fair to her.
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guest:
i remember the post in which hermione explained that she had narcissistic tendencies (AS WE ALL DO) and that her narcissism was "not malignant, just a little grandiose." Obviously she has a large capacity for empathy and introspection, which, if I remember correctly, would tend to disqualify her as a potential candidate for malignant narcissm. That "confession" would have posted in spring 2003, probably in April, for anyone wanting to narrow down the parameters of their search, if the post hasn't been deleted by the manager, that is.
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excuse for my english. i saw this too but i don't remember when. it could have been any times and not April because it was really more than a casual comments about having N traist and that's why I remember so much. For this is was surprised. I don't have time to search thru all of that stuff. She also talk not too long back about how she and her husband were very,very childish and immature together and everyone on the group just say "no-no" its impossible!
But even if i said what I knew I don't want to start to bash tihs person-please though. Judge from what you see HERE that is all. you have to have the direct experience. thank you
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Thank you for clearing things up. I've been on the other board since before sand started running it. I've seen a lot over there. I left once before because something was bothering me about it but I went back for
the good advice and the help I received. I saw most of the posts before they were deleted and I wondered about the people involved. I also thought about leaving again. But I'm glad I waited things out and watched both boards. I'm sorry I can't agree with you. I can't agree with what Sand did either but as far as I'm concerned she's handled things better than you guys. I come over here and read and it's like watching
a bunch of little kids arguing and fighting. It reminds me of a bunch of
teenagers that didn't get their way.
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I remember Hermione making a post as did guest and Igotmeback did. She talks about N tendencies.
So what? She gave excellent advice.
Again, all opinions should be respected and tolerated as long as they are conveyed without being offensive.
Perhas those of you who want to cricitize us should go on your way. You have clearly made your point, and we would like to wrap this up and move on.
whoever (guest) was posting that we are acting like teenagers should consider that either 1)Sand is one of the obnoxious teenagers here anonymously and/or 2)she has taken the npartners board and created enough fear that nobody is really allowed to speak their mind, especially against Sand. We don't know what people are privately e-mailing her. But, based on what she wrote to me and Mindy, she is as bad as the other "teenagers."
Apply the same standard to everybody, and look at the full set of facts.
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'Nofights' here
Bunny - just want to clarify - I was not recommending moving on 'without explanation'; on the contrary to me the explanation is the most crucial part. That's what means I have a voice. That lets the other interested parties judge for themselves whether my position is valid, etc. But I will no longer indulge the emotional pull to argue with the person who has so badly violated my boundaries, after I have delivered my explanation. I think we only hurt our own case when we do so, and provide the 'offender' with more fodder to distract from the original issue.
Some posters have criticized you for not having 'explained' your departure. For that reason, I wish you had provided an explanation. I didn't need one, because I knew what was coming as soon as I saw some of sand's replies to your earlier posts, but for the benefit of those who may not have seen Sand in action before like us veterans have, I wish you had provided an explanation so that people could judge for themselves. Of course it would have been deleted, but so was the one that had no explanation, and the progression would have been no different from what has actually happened. Some of us would have been able to read it prior to deletion, and some of us would have put up a new post questioning the events, etc. It always happens the same way.
The only time I do not advocate providing an explanation is when to do so would threaten one's safety. With N's, I know there are times when that is a factor. But other than that, I think the explanation is the key.
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no fights, it is nice to hear the voice of reason.
My sense is that if Herm had posted the reason, her thread would have been deleted that much sooner, and even less members, perhaps nobody would have seen the goodbye. The thread was started during the day, and was deleted during the day. that is why so few members saw it to begin with. Obviously, I read the thread, and saw how quickly it was deleted. So, I caught the whole thing.
Sand has so much control, that she can really controlt he way that information is distributed to the members.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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We only are only ever fully "matured" at the moment just before we die, or actually the very moment we die. Until then we are always less mature than we will be. I don't find it insulting to be told that I am alive and growing and have a ways to go. I am immuature? Excellent, perhaps it is time to invest in an IRA.
If Herm or anyone else posts or posted about noticing their own ineffective actions and feelings (sandahl, care to dare? or dare to care?)that only increases my respect and trust for her/them. If she does that AND also expresses what she is proud of and what she feels her strengths are well she has one area of life balanced beautifully! And balance is really just a constant state of teetering between edges anyway isn't it? It is the teetering that keeps us alert. Teetering. Is anyone else finding that one hell of a cute word?
It takes a sort of courage and strength to see what we aren't content with in ourselves and face the reality that none of us are perfect. That is part of the reason for connecting with one another in the first place.
Even if this issue of groups breaking up and reforming is reminisant of high school, so what? I have no shame for feeling out who I feel safe with and who I do not and learning to pay attention to my behavior and feelings and those of others. Until the whole world is able to live in peace and health together perhaps we should all go back to kintergarden and stay there. Juice, cookies and nap time anyone?
Teetering Echo/Acappella.
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'Nofights' here
Echo - absolutely agree on that - herm's post about her own traits (however she described them, it's been a while since I read the post), elicited more respect from me, not less
(and by the way proves to that that she does NOT have NPD)
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>(and by the way proves to that that she does NOT have NPD)
Not at all. I don't want to talk about the Herm person or whatever issue that has been going on here (I think you should all move on, like someone else said). I am only addressing the point of awareness and admittance of NDP that you are eluding to, and the conclusions you've drawn from that as "proof".
Two words for you: SAM VAKNIN
And he is one of *THE* most malignant N's on the face of the earth.
Also remember that N's are masters at EMULATING things like empathy and compassion.
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Guest Peach,
You are so right about N and I could not have put it into better words. I do not find Sam V. words trustworthy. It just reminds me of my xN standing in front of me trying to convince that something is what it isnt. I have often wondered if Sam is stating facts he learned from reading or if he was revealing his own thoughts and feelings to others. As far as I knew, N were not capable of doing this.
As far as moving on with my beef from the other board. Been there done that and I will speak for myself, I have had enough argueing with my xN to last me a lifetime. I do not have to hide behind the name guest to get my thoughts out there. I have said what I wanted to and there aint no bout a doubt it that I said it because its right under my name for the world to see. So with that said I am really ready to get and give support in a safe place. I feel this board has proven to be. Im happy everyone at N-Partners is happy so guess you could say everyone is happy now so lets just move on with it and not feel we have to have that last word in. My final word about that situation, unless I am attacked directly about it, then I will once again use my right to speak freely.
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I have a question about Sam V, thanks guest now ya got me thinking. Does anybody know if Sam is married or has been married before? I have never heard him mention any woman or man depending on preference. Just wondering if anyone else has?
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Thanks to all of you who have been so nice to me here, because I feel very attacked just for leaving N-partners. I have not returned to it, even to read postings. I have no influence over that group whatsoever.
I am going to drop the whole stuff about leaving N-partners, it is water under the bridge now. People can think what they want about me, that is their prerogative.
I don't know whether Vaknin is married but he seems like a scary person to me. Probably he is very charismatic as well.
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oops, that was me, Bunny, thanking people. I forgot to log in.
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Guest, dang it bunny ya fooled me!
Not only have they been nice, they have been nonjudgmental too. Even though this post has been active with bitching people, none of them have bitched about it. Wow, they are allowing us to vent and they are not chastising us for it. That is comforting in itself.
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Great message Jaded. I hope everyone follows suit because I think it would be a really good thing to begin the support and healing re. Nism again.
Not really to cut off anyone's expression of feelings because when there is anger, hurt, confusion, etc., it is healing, and even healthy, to sort and vent. But there needs to be a time where the balance of the subject content begins to shift back to the 'norm'.
About Sam & marriage, here are some excerpts from his archives.
Take care.
For YEARS I tried to settle down. Bought a home, married, established businesses, paid taxes. Went nuts. Acted out.
In 1993 my wife had an affair. I overheard her hesitantly enquiring about a suggested venue. I loved her the way only a narcissist knows how to, the way a junkie loves his drugs.
I was married once and almost married twice but women are very hesitant with me.
I *think* I remember his writing about being engaged at one time(while he still was). I remembered being totally in awe, to put it mildly, that any woman, given what he was disclosing about himself in his extensive works, would marry him. Turns out she didn't follow through.
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Whoops-- The previous message was from me, GuestPeach. Forgot to add the username.
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Guest Peach I am going to try this incognito entrance because I think it is sorta mysterious. Lord knows my life is hum drum without all of the N drama. Damn that feels kinda good to be able to say that.
Anyhow, this is Jaded and I just wanted to thank ya for the information about Sam. Sometimes if I think deep about a subject I have even deeper questions that arise. I was thinking about some of the people who have the authority to advise others. For example Sam: Yes he is talking from his own experience but if we take what he has to say as the gospel, he is contradicting what he says a N is. Its kind of like a habitual bank robber informing a bank how to secure their bank from himself. So if Sam believes what he says is the truth, why hasnt he mended his whicked ways? It is obvious he is only giving his lip service to the cause, not really putting his heart and soul into his efforts to mending his N self. I dunno, it becomes so mind boggling trying to figure it out.
Then I think of a priest giving marriage advice to a couple. Alrighty, ya just know his advice is learned material, he has not live it, never been married, so how would he know the feelings, mechanics of it, and the depth of marriage if he hasnt experienced those feelings?
I read about NPD before and I thought it was confusing and I really didnt care much to learn more about it. I moved on with my studies never thought it would be knowledge I would need, so it did not really have a big impact on me. Years later I lived it and all of a sudden the word NPD took on a new meaning to me. It wasnt just words on a page, it was real and it was now my life and I realised how those words in that book did not even begin to desribe the affects of the ordeal or the aftermath of it. So I guess I know from being involved with a N, Nothing that comes out of their mouths I believe. He is speaking from experience unlike a priest who gives marriage counseling, but I dont know, it just gives me the same gut feeling I had with my N.
Because I experienced my xN saying all the right things at all the right times, I am wondering if I am better off learning from someone who has not lived it but learned it, or from someone who confesses openly as a full blown N. He has lived it and displays it openly while he advises others how to avoid the likes of himself.
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'Nofights' here
I have always had the same doubt about Sam's words (if we believe what he says an N is, then we can't believe what he says - a real conundrum)
But he has responded to queries about this conundrum by saying that his 'payoff' for being truthful about all of this is that it puts him in the role of 'expert', and thus fulfills his grandiose tendencies.
I don't think that quite answers the question for me either, but there ya go.
All I know is that when I first came upon Sam's materials, so much of it rang so familiar that it took me a few weeks to get my jaw off the floor. It resonated with me, for some reason, so I am careful not to discard it all for the sake of a logical conundrum
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I agree with you guest. I do not really trust what he has to say but then again I have learned from what he has to say.
He was the first person I stumbled upon while trying to figure this all out. It was all so overwhelming at that time because of the state I was in. If he is speaking half truths when he says anything it does give me a glimpse inside of their minds. I just want to know more on N at the personal level. I think I have a good feeling for the dynamics of it, I would just love to find some information on a more personal level.
One thing I do know, I have yet to read or hear of anyone who has overcome it. You just cant talk the talk, you have to walk the walk. I think that would be a hard road to tow for them.
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I had the same reaction to Vaknin's book as nofights. But, if you read it carefully, it is full of contradicts.
I keep it handy as a reminder.
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Hope,
That is a good way to look at it, I never thought of keeping it around for a reminder. But I know that is not one book I reach for when I want the truth about Nism.
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Re. Sam V. hard to trust: I had to wonder in that quote where he talks about his wife having had an affair, whether it was so, or a projection of his own behavior :? I've read on the boards several times already, where the N partner was accused of excessive flirting and/or cheating, when they were completely innocent and it was really the N doing so.
It was the same for me Jaded. As part of my studies and work I'd read about Nism but had no clue I was living it. The DSM descriptors & a good bit of the Sam V. stuff didn't fit my xN.
For myself, the *partners* of N’s has been the best learning source. I don’t mean the specific board, I mean all of us who have been involved in intricate relationships with N’s. I actually read about Nism from those other sources at one time because of my notice of his extreme self-centeredness, and wrote it off as applying to him. I only realized my xN was indeed an N no doubt, after reading the messages of those that were partners of N’s on the boards.
But now that I have a much broader view about Nism, I can get value from the other sources as well. They just weren’t good *first* sources for me. At any rate, when reading stuff I draw my own conclusions as to what seems to fit for my situation, and take some and leave some.
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Hope, I wanted you to know that my comment was not directed at you. It was an inappropriate thing for me to say, and I understand your feeling that it was unfair that no one called me on it.
I benefitted greatly from all of the N-partner's input, but I did experience some uncomfortably familiar feelings from some of the replies I read. That's probably not helpful for me to add,boundaries work both ways, and I will try to work on this.
I hope that all of the former N-partners are well. MariaTree
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Mariatree:
As I said before, I didn't assume that your comments were directed at me. I was merely pointing out a double standard. i was kicked off before calling ANYONE a name. You called people N's. The EXACT name that Sandahl said was so offensive that it warranted being banned.
I am not commenting on whether or not your comments were inappropriate. I think you are entitled to your opinion. I am not saying that I agree or disagree. I didn't think your comments were particulary malicious, and therefore, I feel that type of dialogue is appropriate regardless of whether or not I agree with the content.
I e-mailed Sandahl directly to point out her hypocrisy. Big surprise, no response.
But, I thank you for the kind words. It is really a shame what happened.
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Guest Peach,
I think I mentioned something earlier about the lack of information out there about Nism on a more personal level. I actually would be interested in knowing what they are thinking or not thinking when they treat people this way. From what I gather it is just nature to them.
I would love to know if anyone has TRULY been reformed or if it is just to embedded in their being to be worked through. I haven't really found any information that satisfies my questions on a more personal level. Does that make sense to you, LOL, I dont really know how else to word it.
Thank you for the information about Sam. That in itself answered some of the lingering questions I had.
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Hi there Jaded,
As you say, it does seem to in their be nature, being that they have suffered a narcissistic wound at an early age, and this has laid the psychological path for their behaviors.
I do know what you are asking about more personal information, though. Too bad we’d never get the real skinny from the average N, as they aren’t with reality enough to know what it is themselves.
Below is a link to a site you might find interesting. There was always mixed opinions about it on the other board, some quite harsh, but I personally got some learning out of it. Anyway, you could have a look and see what you personally think.
It is a site where self proclaimed recovering narcissists(in therapy) answer any questions others have about Nism.
You can read the Q & A archives or ask as many questions as you like to them, if you don’t see your question answered already.
http://frost.bbboy.net/healnpd-viewforum?forum=33
Best wishes...
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TY Guest Peach for the www. Yikes, I could not believe some of their responses to some posts. Heck I would be scared to ask anything to one of the dudes.
I just have to come to the realization that I will never get every question answered about it. I think alot of times what bothers me is that my xN felt I did not have the right to have any type of closure. It is not that I have a problem with a relationship ending, we have all had to deal with that. My problem is the way it happened.
The thought that they just move along to another makes me think they are happy with a warm body beside them no matter who it is. They have no attachment to anything. I wonder if they had a favorite toy when they were young? Or is that out of their reach too? They bond with nothing if I am understanding it. They arent in touch with their emotions, so heck why would they be in touch with ours? How could they?
My closure will come but it sure won't be from him. In time I will give up trying to figure it all out. I dont think Sigmund Freud could have dealt with it better then we are. Reading it and living it are two different things.
Ty for the site. I did read many of the post, then just snuck out quietly before they sensed my presence. :shock: